Co2 benefits..worth it ?

[monkeybusiness]

Interesting. You said you got these results under a combination of florescent, led and incandescent lighting with no HID's used. I don't see any florescent, led or incandescent lights in your picture, Just an HID..

.. but like I said, I Don't use HID's and i average 2-3 pounds per plant.

I truly hope and encourage you to do a grow journal and document the process for getting 2-3 lbs per plant w/out an HID because i still haven't seen evidence that it can be done.

 

[nouvellechef]

Ok so, yes or no is the consensus. You can or cannot run just a CO2 generator at 1500ppm?

 

[BioDynamic]

Interesting. You said you got these results under a combination of florescent, led and incandescent lighting with no HID's used. I don't see any florescent, led or incandescent lights in your picture, Just an HID..


I truly hope and encourage you to do a grow journal and document the process for getting 2-3 lbs per plant w/out an HID because i still haven't seen evidence that it can be done.

I also stated that I used to use HID's. 2006 I still wasn't using LED's as the technology wasn't like it is today. I didn't say that picture had to do with any of my newest techniques, I said that picture was to state that large yields have been around for years. Stop referencing the picture.



I crossed over to LED's and CFL's in 2008.

And though I have never documented any grow, I have changed or added other techniques that provide much better yields than if I was just using simple methods.

For one, my ingredients list is phenomenal. Most products I use to feed my soil and plants are second to none. Best of the best, and the variety of different types of stuff I use is quite large in itself. ( I gave a list earlier in this thread of some* of the things I use.

And ever since I switched from HID's to my other lights, I use ScrOG. This method alone nearly doubles my yield compared to if I were not to use it. This method is a great companion when using something other than HID's.

And incandescents, as I said, are used to stimulate the pr and pfr phytochrome response to help initiate flowering better, no for any sort of yield enhancement.


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[monkeybusiness]

Well i guess we are back to where we started then. 2-3 lbs under an HID is maybe possible, though unlikely and claiming the same can be done under a combination of florescent, led or incandescent lights is absolutely not believable.
But i hope you prove me wrong!

 

[nouvellechef]

Were about to find out soon. 18 gal tote, DWC, Vertical 4k watts. I like Bio. He is a little snippy, but I like it none the less

 

[monkeybusiness]

Were about to find out soon. 18 gal tote, DWC, Vertical 4k watts. I like Bio. He is a little snippy, but I like it none the less

Sweet nouvellechef! I'm looking forward to watching. The more i try to wrap my head around the idea of vertical lights and grows the more i'm digging it.

And don't misunderstand, I'm here to learn and share. I love forward innovative thinking and I'd be one of the first to give it a go but I've never seen any evidence that it can be done. If it can, lets see it. Then way more people would be willing to listen and try it. You don't send the first man to the moon w/out a camera. Just my opinion though..

 

[nouvellechef]

I have never used hoods as 09' was first year from outdoor. But some say I am stupid for not using hoods. But until they have tried it, I would not knock it. When that 1k bulb hangs 10" from plant, halfway down the plant. Those lower "popcorn" nugs, are not little. Maybe not top colas, but each lower branch on the AK's below, were very very heavy.

 

[BioDynamic]

Well i guess we are back to where we started then. 2-3 lbs under an HID is maybe possible, though unlikely and claiming the same can be done under a combination of florescent, led or incandescent lights is absolutely not believable.
But i hope you prove me wrong!

Oh, under HID it's very possible. There is more of this situation, more than CFL's and LED's. Keep in mind I use 6 300 watt CFL's 2700k, plus some very very impressive LED fixtures, and I always throw in a couple small timers like full spectrum, 3300K bulbs, ......and I only grow 4 or less plants. Most of the time only 2 or 3.


And when combined with my ingredients list, and ...ESPECIALLY ScrOG ...(((I do not believe I would be yielding high with CFL's and LED's if I did not use this method))) ...I began this as soon as I switched my lighting, so I never did see how crappy yields can be with just a simple set up.


And to say it is impossible is, more or less, the unbelievable part. We can bend and tie light into knots, yield 100 pounds pumpkins and nearly 20lbs carrots, ... we can (I can make a list of endless things), ..but yielding a couple pounds of bud with CFL's , LED's ...all the right ingredients and techniques, ..is impossible? That is what is absurd. But still, you guys are right for not believing in just anything... epistemological skepticism

 

[zem]

if you put so many cfl's and an A/C maybe you could pull it off but it would be crazy expensive and inefficient. if you pu 1kw cfl's/LED combination and 1kw HPS the HPS would be much better yield and less heat. get us some real pics for this CFL grow, all you gaveus was a plant under HID

 

[monkeybusiness]

I hope you understand with claims this far fetched it's not only hard to believe them, but hard to take your methods seriously. It just seems that if you could do something so magnificent and unbelievable that you'd want everyone to see it and learn how it's done. (you do seem like you want to teach your stuff). I've never heard of someone upgrading from an HPS to cfls.

And how could you not want to show off such a feat? 2lbs w/out HID's??

You can talk in all the circles you want but it just seems suspect to me.

I for one would love to see it. Sounds like a crazy setup

 

[legalize_freedom]

I have upgraded from a 400w MH/HPS to a t5 floro in veg. The 400w was overkill for my small space, and I thought it would be better utilized in the flower room.

I believe what Bio is saying is true, I have seen these huge pumkins and carrots, and really don't think it would be that hard to pull it off with good genetics. I think however that we don't see it because it is not what most of us are going for. Most of us are out to get the most amount of high grade pot out in the shortest amount of time. Most of us are not going to do a 3 month veg.

As far as the LED's go I think in a SCROG type set-up this could work to, we know that the LED's don't have the penetration power, but the technology is there with them now to be able to flower as long as you have an even canopy.

Anyone can choose not to believe or to believe what each other is saying...it really doesn't matter. I think we are wrong to knock any new ideas that are being put forth, if someone chooses not to believe or use them that is fine, but saying you don't think it's possable without ever trying these ideas is being very closed minded. Not too long ago we had a memeber here who was going to do an experiment with LED's and thought he could pull off some amazing weights with them. Unfortunately he got sick of being harrassed by people and left before we got to find out what ever became of these experiments.

Not long ago people were saying it wasn't right to grow with verticle lights...look whats happening with that now, we are seeing killer yeilds coming from these set-ups...so just because someone is trying new things, doesn't give me the right to judge them or ridecule them...of course I still have the right to believe them or not, and pics would make that a little more believable, but even pics can be decieving.

None of us would even be growing indoors if it weren't for people that think outside of the box.

 

[legalize_freedom]

Bio I have used the fermentation method with 2 liter bottles in a 4'x4' space and had 4 bottles brewing and saw no noticeable increase in yeilds. I had no way to measure the amounts of c02 I was producing...but just running the 4 bottles was an xtra cost that I didn't need, also more time invested in replenishing the yeist and sugar every week. I don't know that I would have had the space or time to make more of these. This is what I have tried, and decided that my yeilds wer the same as if I was to just ventilate my space really well...bringing in c02 enriched air. I'm not saying they didn't work either, I just found that it wasn't worth my time and money...definately not a good enough experiment to say that all homemade c02 contraptions are useless...just enough to proove to me that if I want to introduce c02 into my grow, I'm better off spending the money to get properly set up. Otherwise I feel like it was a waste of my time.

 

[nouvellechef]

Agreed. LF. We just saw earlier in the thread a 19 day veg time and 9 week flower put out a a lb, from a single plant. Right genetics, mega watts (imo) and a green thumb. I am hopefull it can be done and documented.

 

[BioDynamic]

Bio I have used the fermentation method with 2 liter bottles in a 4'x4' space and had 4 bottles brewing and saw no noticeable increase in yeilds. I had no way to measure the amounts of c02 I was producing...but just running the 4 bottles was an xtra cost that I didn't need, also more time invested in replenishing the yeist and sugar every week. I don't know that I would have had the space or time to make more of these. This is what I have tried, and decided that my yeilds wer the same as if I was to just ventilate my space really well...bringing in c02 enriched air. I'm not saying they didn't work either, I just found that it wasn't worth my time and money...definately not a good enough experiment to say that all homemade c02 contraptions are useless...just enough to proove to me that if I want to introduce c02 into my grow, I'm better off spending the money to get properly set up. Otherwise I feel like it was a waste of my time.

The home-made devices aren't exactly the greatest thing. But, the main point is ...It doesnt matter if it is home-made, a generator, or, anything else, from anywhere...if it produces Co2, ....then it works, end of story.

Now, I never have more than 4 plants or large area, so a couple home-made dispensers aren't all that much of a big deal. And the pop bottle ones, only last 3-7 days.
However, if you take a 5 gallon pail add a couple pounds of sugar and the proper amount of yeast, ..make 2 or 3 of these, and it's a little different. Steady flow for quite some time. Start the first one, then 4 days or so later start the next, then 4 days after that start the next. Costs less than 20$, and it Does supply Co2 regardless.
Sometimes once they all run out after a month or so, I don't even worry about it. Maybe even skip a month and add more co2 month after, it's really no big deal compared to the rest.

I don't really consider co2 to be a yield enhancer. It help plants grow faster, and larger in a shorter period of time, but in the end it's pretty much just adding to the overall of the plant not the yield alone.

And I do not go all crazy if co2 levels are low, ...as long as keep it above 700ppm.

Either way, any method of Co2 production works. As long as it produces co2, ...and having a meter can really tell you if it's working or not. And mine says they elevate co2. For how long, is another story.

 

[BioDynamic]

I have upgraded from a 400w MH/HPS to a t5 floro in veg. The 400w was overkill for my small space, and I thought it would be better utilized in the flower room.

I believe what Bio is saying is true, I have seen these huge pumkins and carrots, and really don't think it would be that hard to pull it off with good genetics. I think however that we don't see it because it is not what most of us are going for. Most of us are out to get the most amount of high grade pot out in the shortest amount of time. Most of us are not going to do a 3 month veg.

As far as the LED's go I think in a SCROG type set-up this could work to, we know that the LED's don't have the penetration power, but the technology is there with them now to be able to flower as long as you have an even canopy.

Anyone can choose not to believe or to believe what each other is saying...it really doesn't matter. I think we are wrong to knock any new ideas that are being put forth, if someone chooses not to believe or use them that is fine, but saying you don't think it's possable without ever trying these ideas is being very closed minded. Not too long ago we had a memeber here who was going to do an experiment with LED's and thought he could pull off some amazing weights with them. Unfortunately he got sick of being harrassed by people and left before we got to find out what ever became of these experiments.

Not long ago people were saying it wasn't right to grow with verticle lights...look whats happening with that now, we are seeing killer yeilds coming from these set-ups...so just because someone is trying new things, doesn't give me the right to judge them or ridecule them...of course I still have the right to believe them or not, and pics would make that a little more believable, but even pics can be decieving.

None of us would even be growing indoors if it weren't for people that think outside of the box.

And for the whole canopy penetration thing, ...LED's can get passed all that. Yes, they say LED's cannot penetrate the canopy. Which is probably mostly true, however ...LED's can be placed anywhere in the grow room. I have an LED fixture below my plants on the ground shooting light upwards as well as some above (like the sun), ..and ....

and ..there are these new designs, out as well. Lights (LED's) that you can wrap around your plants. Like X-mas tree lights. Providing light to any inch of your plant. Yes, grow lights in the design of x-mas lights. They have videos on youtube testing these products out. Oh yes, youtube has videos of HID vs LED, and etc etc.


Three names of the new designs

LED Droplights
LED Canopy Lights
LED Stemlights <<< I bought a couple of these to try (smaller versions)


Vertical lighting can be very beneficial. Actually, light going to places on the plant you're not used to seeing of course will be good. My lights surround my plants from every angle. I EVEN have them set up underneathe shining light upwards.

 

[BioDynamic]

How long do most of you veg for??? 3 months or less? Because I go from January til Summer.

And as I stated before, When I begin flowering, I don't just use my CFL's, ..My plants also get sunlight most days for many hours as I bring my set ups outside. usually 1130am - 4-5pm

So I guess to say that I use only CFL's and LED's is a little understated.

 

[jmansweed]

In regards to this thread - the benefits of CO2 will only be seen clearly if maintained at levels above 1000 ppm for the entire flowering cycle in a 100% sealed environment. In my experiences home made buckets do very little specifically when not consistent or monitored in any way. You energy is better wasted in ventilation and not having CO2 as a priority.

Home made mixes can indeed make CO2 - but insufficient amounts for our typical grow rooms. It simply is not an efficient way to apply CO2 for most of us.

Bio - you should really start a grow journal and let us follow. Reading through your posts here is down right confusing. Huge yields w/ different light programs and methods and so on. It's all very interesting but the info is trickling out in a way thats a little jumbled and hence, maybe a little suspicious? (I say that w/ all due respect)

How about it?............I think you have some valid concepts.

 

[BioDynamic]

I hope you understand with claims this far fetched it's not only hard to believe them, but hard to take your methods seriously. It just seems that if you could do something so magnificent and unbelievable that you'd want everyone to see it and learn how it's done. (you do seem like you want to teach your stuff). I've never heard of someone upgrading from an HPS to cfls.

And how could you not want to show off such a feat? 2lbs w/out HID's??

You can talk in all the circles you want but it just seems suspect to me.

I for one would love to see it. Sounds like a crazy setup

Well, I understand that to most of you guys the claims are far-fetched, because you've never seen (which i can understand) or haven't heard of (which I don't understand). I'm surprised you people have met nobody else with yields around a pound or so. I've met many people!?

Hard to take my methods seriously? There's nothing wrong with the way I explain my methods, what's wrong is the fact that you do not believe in such great yields.

I use CFL's and LED's and sunlight, absolutely nothing wrong there...

My ingredients list is phenomonal. Take AZOMITE for example... you want to increase yields? spend 20$, buy a 2 pound bag, ...use it on one plant and not on another .....and see the yield difference from just one simple product yourself. This one product alone will boost the yield of anyone's grow in this forum. You want even more yield, ..throw in the ScrOG method, ..you want even more? Use TRIA or BRS ...all the things I have listed, ...are far from unbelievable. I just think you aren't grasping certain concepts.

Putting the best methods/techniques with some of the best products on the planet and achieving a little more than usual.....There's nothing unreal about it.

You're in extreme denial, but again I don't blame you.

But it's not like it is hard to find out for yourself. You want me to prove it when any one of you can prove it yourselves.

Start out small. Buy some AZOMITE and do a test on one of your plants. Add ScrOG. Add anything I've said, ...and then you will see for yourself.

(I suggest don't mess around with LED's ..stick to your HID's!!! As LED's can complicate things if you don't kno what you are doing

 

[nouvellechef]

Grow journal, Bio. Cmon, one time. Were in Feb, your 4 plants should be coming along very nicely, I bet. Let us follow you, I for one, Jman and Legalize would follow it with open minds. Give us some pics of the set ups.

 

[BioDynamic]

In regards to this thread - the benefits of CO2 will only be seen clearly if maintained at levels above 1000 ppm for the entire flowering cycle in a 100% sealed environment. In my experiences home made buckets do very little specifically when not consistent or monitored in any way. You energy is better wasted in ventilation and not having CO2 as a priority.

Home made mixes can indeed make CO2 - but insufficient amounts for our typical grow rooms. It simply is not an efficient way to apply CO2 for most of us.

Bio - you should really start a grow journal and let us follow. Reading through your posts here is down right confusing. Huge yields w/ different light programs and methods and so on. It's all very interesting but the info has trickling out in a way thats a little jumbled and hence, maybe a little suspicious? (I say that w/ all due respect)

How about it?............I think you have some valid concepts.

Yes, I noticed I am all over the place trying to fill in everyone's inquiry. And even my grow journal will be absolutely random. I do not have feeding schedules, or lighting schedules, or... Everything in my op is random. I never feed the same meal 2wice, everyday is something completely different with lighting, ..everything. People use the same meals and lighting schedules /same everything throughout the entire grow.

Everyday is different for my plants. So, would I just write down what I do everyday? That'll take me half a year ...





===============
That's why you absolutely need a Co2 meter when using any Co2 method. I spent just over 200$ on mine, ..and I used it when i started out with simple home-made methods. ANYTHING PRODUCING CO2 WILL ELEVATE LEVELS, END OF STORY.

100% sealed environment is vital. It's a matter of 'for how long', that really makes the difference. 5 gallon pails (2-3) with enough sugar and yeast can produce quite the amount of co2 and last for some time. (20-30$ total spent a month).

Now co2 is useless when ventilation and someone has to keep entering the room all the time, etc etc. BUT I use LED's for vegging , ...and I can go 3-5 days without entering my room, and I never have to worry about anything, my soil is super nutritious, heat , and everything else isn't a worry.


All in All... I'd say all co2 methods CAN ALL BE THE SAME. It makes no difference which way the co2 is produce, as long as the technician has the skills to capture and control it. That being said, if you have the money, ..go ahead and blow it on fancy equipment. If you do not have the money or love making things and etc etc, then blow your time on the home-made ways. Either way... Co2 WILL BE PRODUCED, ..it'll just be up to you and your skills to make use out of it because even having a generator with steady constant supply can mean nothing, just like the pop-bottles, if other factors are in the way.

Im just saying, I have done home-made ways, and I have a co2 meter that told me how well they worked. And they do. Just not as easy ...