Zarnon takes aim at a fall and winter grow

[Zarnon]

Wait....... caabaca...... you did make me look at those enthusiastic buds again, and I think there IS an environmental discrepancy.

The 'heavy nute user' (left rear) and the super grower (right front) both have double the airstones of the others!

These two had the additional one I drop through the top when the rootmass gets thick. Could this extra O2 at this point be contributing to the relative increase in growth?

It could not all be that because of how differently these two plants are presenting. The back one has nute def. the front one , none. The configuration of flowers and stage of growth are different for both as well.

Anyways, the degree that xtra stone is contributing is debatable, but just wanted to mention it (BTW, there is no downside to using 2 vs. 1 stone).

 

[caabca]

so maybe i shouldn't have deleted that last post eh? haha oh well..glad to see there might be an explaination...maybe double the airstones in all of them next time..or get EM to do an experiment! he is the "mad scientist"..

 

[Ravishing_68]

Zarnon, Loving watching your grow. I have some AK-48 seeds that I'll probably pop in next fall. My NLXBB is doing well for all my flub-ups with the nutes ( see picture below, leaves have "bumps" on them and some burn). This being my first grow to make it to flowering. I have four ladies, and like yours, two are definitely doing better than the other two but I think that is because I didn't really consider I would have 4 plants in my caddy and perhaps would be better with two that have been topped a couple of times.

My question is... it seems you have such distinction between each bud, are you trimming or pruning? I have not done either, just taken the leaves that are falling off, probably due to lack of light, they are so smashed in the caddy... I have heard both, people that like to prune thinking it focuses the plant on the buds, and others that believe to leave them alone and let nature take it's course.

I enjoy watching your journal to give me an idea of where mine should be in two weeks (though I know mine won't be as good) Major good luck mojo coming your way dude! ~ Rav

 

[parkingjoe]

I have heard both, people that like to prune thinking it focuses the plant on the buds, and others that believe to leave them alone and let nature take it's course.


ive done both ways and believe me leave the leaves alone for photosynehesis.that is so badly spelt i cannot believe it myself but stoned badly

anyway my last grow exceeded everyuthing ive ever done and i leaft leaves in situ unless they were dead and fell off themselves................


STONed

 

[Zarnon]

Ravishing! Hola, welcome n' all that.

Separation - Zarnon's approach

I get good separation primarily because of training sticks and only secondarily from leafing. Leafing is something that probably exists already. But it came to me as I was working in my outdoor garden, training and leafing a Dwarf Weeping Pussy Willow I have been working on for the last 2 years.

I amend the above by also stating I was instructed how to do this by a master gardener who did my landscaping.

My rationale behind leafing

I disagree about not removing very select and few leaves. I am not talking about the large fans but the smaller leaves much higher in the canopy.

If you properly separate by training you are not going to have to do much of this. Only take off leaves that are directly blocking a canopy bud. This is not an indiscriminate hack of the leaves to 'divert' energy to the plant. I'd say I take 2-3 leaves off per week per plant on average.

It's a matter of doing something with a coherent purpose rather than picking this or that technique. I would never do a prune or leaf without training them first. Separate, then see where the light is blocked.

A good diagnonal shot of the buds/leaves posted previously. There's still a few left.

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=14653&d=1167755732

Pruning

I am a very minor pruner. I have seen pics of people who literally hack their plants to shreds. Now that is major trauma!

I know some people who grow flowers for comp do heavy pruning, but they are usu going for that one 'prizewinner'. I want good AND plenty!

I cut off what I term the 'loser' branches. These are the ones that have no chance to make it to light whatsoever. I cut off much less branches than I leaf. I'd say total of one to three small branches per plant per grow.

While I love the colas, I am amazed at how the 'underbud' adds up each time (as long as the top has light).

re: airstones

caaba, leave those thoughts up! Many people were probably wondering the same thing. I instantly remembered your post when I was thinking of those double airstones.

Water can only hold so much O2 though (saturation point). The way I look at it, there is no 'overkill' here. Once water's reached it's sat, it stays that way. However, nicely oxygenated water is faaaar better than under, fer sure!

Still tilting towards genetics, just b/c these 4 plants are so freakin' different! None of them look terrible but makes you wonder about the pheno of this plant or somone screwed up at the seed co.

Clone Update!

After all, I haven't mentioned them for awhile. Stuck 'em under a 125w fluoro, hand watered 'em. No temp control (although with the door cracked it's right at 80), two fans (neither an exhaust just blowin' around), and a lowly cuppa water to help keep the humidity up.

About as low tech as it gets indoor LOL... It's like I went from a Condo in NYC to 'Survivor Closet Edition'.

 

[Zarnon]

Less talk, more pics!!

Another week a little fatter. 14 gal/wk of water, but slowing down. The resin fairy is starting to see the rest.

The clones I decided to give away. The very encrusted one is going to become a clone mother and I'll get back some later. The other four are going to a local group for cancer survivors.

I had to go in there one day multiple times because of how cold it got. I used a green light the whole time, so I am hoping that was enough.

(pics: left to right: rear left, rear right, 2 pics - left front, last b/w is right front).

 

[Elephant Man]

Gave your clones away? Whatcha thinking about doing next?

 

[Zarnon]

Gave your clones away? Whatcha thinking about doing next?

Ummmmmmmm.. gonna chill on the production for awhile like I did last time.

I dunno how you guys smoke all your herb. I have enuf to continue smoking heavily every day with two varietals for the next year -- in reserve! LOL That's after giving a bunch away, getting everone liberally stoned (I am the "Stone Mother" for about 4 or 5 peeps) and making hash out of three jars due to mold (from storage).

In about 3 weeks I'll have three varietals. I trust this guy to give me clones of my fav whenever I want to start up again.

I'm looking at Summer or Fall this year or whenever the bug bites me again to start but now I'm in no hurry. I want to do a true purple varietal (Strawberry Cough?) and something else really exotic.

 

[Elephant Man]

Ummmmmmmm.. gonna chill on the production for awhile like I did last time.

I dunno how you guys smoke all your herb. I have enuf to continue smoking heavily every day with two varietals for the next year already! LOL That's after giving a bunch away, getting everone liberally stoned (I am the "Stone Mother" for about 4 or 5 peeps) and making hash out of three jars due to mold (from storage).

In about 3 weeks I'll have three varietals. I trust this guy to give me clones of my fav whenever I want to start up again.

I'm looking at Summer or Fall this year or whenever the bug bites me again to start but now I'm in no hurry. I want to do a true purple varietal (Strawberry Cough?) and something else really exotic.

Kinda thought you might say that...wishful thinking on my part. I will most likely be shutting down before the summer too, temps too high to deal with here...

 

[Ravishing_68]

Zarnon:

My rationale behind leafing

I disagree about not removing very select and few leaves. I am not talking about the large fans but the smaller leaves much higher in the canopy.

If you properly separate by training you are not going to have to do much of this. Only take off leaves that are directly blocking a canopy bud. This is not an indiscriminate hack of the leaves to 'divert' energy to the plant. I'd say I take 2-3 leaves off per week per plant on average.

It's a matter of doing something with a coherent purpose rather than picking this or that technique. I would never do a prune or leaf without training them first. Separate, then see where the light is blocked.

ok, so can you give me a better idea of "training" and "training sticks"? When my plants first started they were close and compact but as they took off in veg stage they began to space 2-3 inches between branches. Then in the flowering stage they have gotten thick on top, making them pretty top heavy, luckily they are in a box with mylar walls and they lean on them. The part where they have turned thick with bud and leaves is what you call a "canopy"? I attached a pic of one of my buds, would you clip the leaves?

 

[Zarnon]

Awwwwww EM... That was a nice statement! You are so nice!

Ravishing; Ok, if you look at my earlier grow (in the link) I have some pics of those sticks and I included another pic.

They are basically dowels glued into 2x2 wooden bases and then I hold them up by using weights at the bases.

I use them to separate the branches using string with bent paperclips tied to them. I clip the string to the dowels.

I don't think any of those leaves you outlined are ones I'd remove. The criteria is the leaf has to block light to another bud after you've separated it. If I can move a bud out of the way or another into the light without cutting I do. The leaves that are tite against the bud I generally don't touch.

When I do a 'leaf' again I'll show you a pictoral example but you'll get it very fast. I know I said canopy so I probably confused things. Think a little lower w/ leaves below main colas but blocking secondary sidebranches.

It's the leaves that 'stick out' you want to cut. If it doesn't block anything, leaf it be. (Get it? *drum and cymbal sound* Thank you! I'll be here all night!)

I want to emphasize the 'light hand' approach. I went in tonight and removed a single leaf. The first one I've taken off in two weeks. If you've done the separation correctly you may remove 5-6 in a grow like mine at the max grow rate then drop to my current level later in the grow.

BTW, if you are following the generally accepted definition for canopy; 'the continuous cover formed by tree crowns in a forest.' Then I've led you astray with my definition. I (incorrectly) define my canopy as the covering leaf mass below the outcropping main colas (in other words the canopy of leaves, the crowns from pot do not account for much covering).

 

[Zarnon]

Ravishing's Leaf Problem: Hard to tell b/c of the yellow the flowering light puts on them and I gotta know the history.

A sick plant template would look something like this;

FIRST, check environment.

Have you checked all these environmental factors, temp, humidity? How are the roots (if you can look). Have you checked closely for signs of infestation (underside of leaves and interstices?)

SECOND, check recent changes. Have you made any recent changes to the environment including nutes?

Keep this in mind when you move on to this checklist;

Which leaves are affected? (newest, oldest, all) be careful and think back how it started before saying all!
Where are the leaves affected (interior, exterior, global) again, think how it started.
Do you have browning? (y/n)
For yes, what is the pattern (tips, interior, irregular) For global browning see: "How to start a new plant"
If you have multiple plants getting the same nutes; Are all plants affected?

This could be reordered a bit and just off the top of my head, but it goes along with the way I approach plant problems. There are accomplished growers like TBG, StoneyBud, Elephant Man, and Kade who could add their thoughts but it's a good start.

Also, plants, like people are unpredictable. While there are patterns, keep in mind there is no cookbook to this.

I know it sounds complicated, but it will be come intuitive with correct guidance and experience.

Here's an example of how to line it up after done;

Given you have a reasonable enviro (temps from 75-85 w/ humidity 40-50% on avg) AND you have no loss of oxy to roots;

Overnuting: Public enemy number one. Pattern: Hits older leaves first, but if severe may be global. Leaves: Hits interior. I think of a river giving up its sludge. You'll see browning also at the interior of the leaf but will also hit tips. EARLY SIGN: Drying of the leaves and then curling.

This guy did a whole topic on overnuting w/ pics here

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6635&page=2

BTW, a brief shout out for most overhyped nute deficiency:

Mag! I don't think I've ever seen this. Most commercial preparations geared for MJ growth have this covered.

From what I've read; Will affect oldest leaves first, hits exterior (interval chlorosis), w/ curling.

There's sooooooo much more, but doing a nute guide correctly is too much for my addled brain to handle tonight.

 

[Zarnon]

I break with Teacher, or 'Did I get Hermed?'

Hola... well, had a 'sort of' surprise. The guy that's been advising me came over and instantly latched onto this 'weirdling' flower I've been noticing for awhile. It's a stunty little thing with very twisted leaves and flowers that never really grew.

"That's a male flower dude" Yoiks! My heart froze.

But then I thought about it for a little bit....things just didn't add up. I cut the flower out (pic). I couldn't see the 'balls' but he said they were there.

Dude picked apart a few small vegetative bits that may have been seeds and advised me to cut my grow. ... I dunno... We are friendly disagreeing on this.

I'm no gambler but I think there are only females in this room and we're goin all the way to harvest Bay-BAY! :banana: Here's my reasons why:

*1 That flower has been open at least three weeks. I took three sample buds, one right below the 'male', dried them (preview smoke report: very piney!) w/ NO seeds whatsoever.

*2 There has been no massive pistil die off. I just cannot believe there are so many immature to mature white pistils, not like my experience with a hermed crop.

*3 No other flowers that look male anywhere.

*4 Last point to do w/ how the flowers present. Female flowers are on a raceme (right on or directly off the stem) while male flowers are on a panicle. Here is a link to some pics which explain it better than I do.

Females are on Racemes: http://www.answers.com/topic/raceme
Males are on Panicles: http://www.answers.com/topic/panicle


Read all about plant sexual types here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_sexuality
This has the better section on description of pot sex: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis

Check out the pic of the 'male' flower (below). What's your opinion?

Current Plan: 2 of the plants are more mature than the others and on a one week flush w/ bananamana and bioboost. The other two are getting one more week of growth and then going on a one week molasses flush! ;D (Recipe: one tablespoon unsulphured molasses/gal)

 

[Zarnon]

Argh.....

Unrelated screwup number 10r5-a

You know, sometimes I feel like I've made every mistake and then some. This is a doozy. I haven't even posted because I'm so bummed.

Well, it has to do with long term storage and these stupid little moisture pellets. I thought it would be a wise idea to put just one in per mason jar to keep it from overly drying out.

WRONG! Just a wrong freakin' choice. It was too moist and all the stuff got really 'musty' smelling. I can't see any mold, and the high is preserved, but the taste is totally harshed. I dried it out fully which helped somewhat but it's not that top notch taste. I did it to a LOT of herb and I'm very bummed. My only consolation is that a stash was inaccessible and by luck prevented me from screwing that up.

The only thing that's pulled me out of my funk is harvest of 1/2 AK47 is today and I should have pics. I'm really thinking of pulling off one more grow of something else and giving all this bud away or hashing it.

I'm going to check out the seed co TBG recommended. If I do another it will be a purple.

 

[Zarnon]

Well, took down two last night. Others 2 getting another week. Osh...tired. I got more than I thought given size.

The 'prizewinner' wouldn't stand on her own, but I got somecloseups on a turkey platter (3,4th pic). Those buds appear really dense, the med sized buds were bending the branches.

 

[chezidek]

ooohhh beautiful buds!!!

 

[THE BROTHER'S GRUNT]

Whats up Zarnon. Man it looks like a damn fine harvest with more to come. Great job my friend great job. :aok:

 

[GreenDayGirl]

Hey Zarnon, whats up? Yummy! You always could make me drool...anyhow. I too ended up with one of those "make your heart stop" little yellow flowers. On the stalk and opened. So I moved everyone out, cleaned up, scrubed the walls etc... So guess what I found last night? Over a month later?! Yep....can I say ouch! :cry: On a lighter note, how was your vacation to the South American jungle? (lol)

 

[Zarnon]

GDG! You found a seed? Or a ton of em? Bummer! You had the worst luck as I recall. Maybe you need a brown mojo exorcism or sumtin? :beatnik:

Well, I pretty confident (overconfident maybe?) this ain't that. I started that 'prizewinna' clone in flower I'm so sure. If I had the digs I'd make this one a clone mother and breed her... but no such luck.

Sux b/c I was going to give these away. I've ordered new seeds and was going to do a Barney's Breakfast Bar and Dutch Passion strain :cry: But I couldn't let that killa clone go to waste!!

I had a good time in S America. It's a great chance to speak Spanish. No military pulling everyone off the bus.

TBG; Thanks! The two biggest are yet to come fo' shizzle. I'm not even sure if I'll pull 'em in a week! They still don't look mature enuf yet.

 

[Zarnon]

Lights - revisiting intensity and spectrum (part 1)


I got into an interesting discussion on an other thread regarding these topics. I think it's really interesting. There is a lot of (mis)information about this topic that gets regurgitated over and over again without any critical analysis of where it came from.

Some basic principles are here;

Photosynthesis and light: http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookPS.html

Phytochromes, etc. When people talk about what the red spectrum does, they are talking about phytochromes, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phytochrome Also follow links to cytochromes and phototropins.



Intensity

Plants vary with need for light. Flowers like Pink Allusion, White Butterfly, Grape Ivy, etc in comparative studies have shown decreased growth with higher levels of light (they measured intensity in ft-c w/ lower levels being better http://mrec.ifas.ufl.edu/foliage/resrpts/rh_91_17.htm)

Others, like Roses have shown better end stage dry weight, bud sites, etc with increased light.

When you look up MJ a lot of people mention the importance of intensity, but it's hard to find out where that came from. So why not look at a plant MJ is similar to?

It's not tomatoes, but hops. They are both in the same family (Cannabaceae) and the female flowers of both look very similar! There is a killer picture of a flowering hop plant here;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/04/Humulus_lupulus_070805.jpg/800px-


How much light energy are your plants getting? Check out this chart (not sure how accurate): http://www.cannabisculture.com/foru...1194343&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=3
It's interesting the amount of radiation we give our plants. With a 1000w MH at 6 inches you can give 1000% radiation of sunlight? Can that be good?

It appears there's limits. Since MJ is similar to hops, it's reasonable to see how they respond. In this study 1800-2000 μm m-2 s-1 (PAR/PFD terms, see below) was the max for photosynthesis in two species http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=668_31. Makes sense, there's limits on everything else (ferts, fluids, temp), why not light?

(If someone knows how to make the conversion to lumens (or lux)! It would be very useful!

Regarding PAR

PAR gets a lot of traction on hydro and MJ sites, it's a concept that refers to an optimal range (400-700nanmeters) for plants to grow. Its been proposed as an 'alternative' measurement. There's a sprinkling of conspiracy theory in some posts about PAR.

Truth is, there already exists an identical accepted standard called (Photosynthetic) Photon flux Density or PPFD. The Hops article (above) uses this. Wonder why lights aren't rated in PPFD to avoid confusion?

400-700nm is the range of a good growing light. My Hortilux is 400-740nm. Maybe they should stamp it 'INCLUDES ALL PAR FREQUENCIES!!' and charge an extra ten bucks LOL.

The important part is the spectrum (next post).