Government conrol? Control through your cigs are government control. Enough said. i resign. But still hold my opinions and truths close to me. I dont drink either Mal so i would not have a reason to sell another one of the governments killing juices. You people crack me up. So blind its funny. I understand its my right to go to that bar Mal. I see your points bro. But theres also alot more to this and thats why we are arguing it because its bad and people care, like myself. I bet teh world would be a better place if alcohol and cigs werent ever made to trap innocent people.
no cigs in bars/restraunts but pot ok.
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POTUS
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mal_crane said:
You're correct, it's only $31,600,000,000 USD (31.6 Billion) per/year.
That's from the CDC page I linked to in my post below.
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allgrownup
Guest
whoah buddy....
your putting words in my mouth...
so far, i have seen no indication that making someone stand out on a patio to smoke has cut sales in ANY establishment. when my friends get up from the bar to go outside for a stick of cancer, i don't cling to them. i enjoy my beverage and hold an interesting converation whith some i didn;t know 5 secs ago.
People choose to run cigar lounges and i don't frequent them. If the risk = reward, like a hoppin club or a great nite at the casino, i live with it. thats the price of fun it seems. us non smokers make sacrifices to put up with it. or have to seek out the backroom/corner of the casino, pub, whatever it is it usually out of the action.....but that IS changing....and I LOVE IT!
take a :chillpill:
defending my right for good health is not the same as defending the govtment. you lost me here
you trying to get under my skin? dont reply to that as i am practicing my self dicipline by no longer replying in this thread. I like you man, and the other side or your debates. i'd like to fire one up with ya sometime....we'd prolly stay up late debating over stuff hahahahahha
peace :48:
your putting words in my mouth...
so far, i have seen no indication that making someone stand out on a patio to smoke has cut sales in ANY establishment. when my friends get up from the bar to go outside for a stick of cancer, i don't cling to them. i enjoy my beverage and hold an interesting converation whith some i didn;t know 5 secs ago.
People choose to run cigar lounges and i don't frequent them. If the risk = reward, like a hoppin club or a great nite at the casino, i live with it. thats the price of fun it seems. us non smokers make sacrifices to put up with it. or have to seek out the backroom/corner of the casino, pub, whatever it is it usually out of the action.....but that IS changing....and I LOVE IT!
take a :chillpill:
defending my right for good health is not the same as defending the govtment. you lost me here
you trying to get under my skin? dont reply to that as i am practicing my self dicipline by no longer replying in this thread. I like you man, and the other side or your debates. i'd like to fire one up with ya sometime....we'd prolly stay up late debating over stuff hahahahahhapeace :48:
Hick
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I don't want under your skin AGU. Not my intentions at all. Nor have I "put words in your mouth".. I did single you out, but because you are one that has always pushed for 'personal freedoms', 'personal rights', government conspiracies, over regulation, ect. But It just seems that 'personal rights' are only valid, when the benefit your point of view.
I don't begrudge you, your right to breathe smoke free air in public buildings, including government buildings, hospitals, stores, ect.anyplace that people are required or may be forced to intermingle with the 'second class' smokers.
As such an avid advocate of personal rights and freedoms, why should you begrudge me the right as a "private property owner" the same basic individual rights?..
Who said anything about "cut sales"?.. not me.
But I can address it..
If I as the owners of a business, feel compelled to alllow smoking in my establishment, and that smoking persuades you to not patronize my business, 'there' is income/sales loss, that "I" have chosen to lose. That is "my" descision, and I should be willing to take that loss.
But that desision should be mine to make.. IMHO.
Vice versa.. If the bar next door chooses to forbid smoking, and "I" refuse to spend my money there, theres a sales loss that he chose to lose.
I simply feel it should be an 'individuals right to choose'.
I'm done, too. I won't argue about it.
okay,, my 3rd EDIT
I don't think we're so far apart on the issue agu, after rereading the entire thread. "Here", smoking is forbidden in all bars, reseraunts, casinos, and within 15' of the entrance of those esablishments. They aren't even allowed a specified smoking area... I'm not against that, "at all"... IF the "owner" of that establishment chooses to make that his policy.
But I don't feel that a 'law' (governmental control), should be forced on him, in his privately owned establishment..
No different than a 'cigar bar'
I don't begrudge you, your right to breathe smoke free air in public buildings, including government buildings, hospitals, stores, ect.anyplace that people are required or may be forced to intermingle with the 'second class' smokers.
As such an avid advocate of personal rights and freedoms, why should you begrudge me the right as a "private property owner" the same basic individual rights?..
Who said anything about "cut sales"?.. not me.
But I can address it..
If I as the owners of a business, feel compelled to alllow smoking in my establishment, and that smoking persuades you to not patronize my business, 'there' is income/sales loss, that "I" have chosen to lose. That is "my" descision, and I should be willing to take that loss.
But that desision should be mine to make.. IMHO.
Vice versa.. If the bar next door chooses to forbid smoking, and "I" refuse to spend my money there, theres a sales loss that he chose to lose.
I simply feel it should be an 'individuals right to choose'.
I'm done, too. I won't argue about it.
okay,, my 3rd EDIT
I don't think we're so far apart on the issue agu, after rereading the entire thread. "Here", smoking is forbidden in all bars, reseraunts, casinos, and within 15' of the entrance of those esablishments. They aren't even allowed a specified smoking area... I'm not against that, "at all"... IF the "owner" of that establishment chooses to make that his policy.
But I don't feel that a 'law' (governmental control), should be forced on him, in his privately owned establishment..
No different than a 'cigar bar'
Dubbaman
A few toke's a day.
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Only a few last thoughts to add to this before i let it be since there really will never be an end to it and i know myself that when i stand for something i am unyielding.
1) i never in any of the posts said that i was disputing any of the info on smoking- I am aware (as are any smokers, all you have to do is read the side of the pack)) of the problems that can/are caused by the habit. as for the quote of my Dr. who cant find signs of it in my body, that statement is talking of area most commonly effected by smoking there is no sign of degradation in my lungs or heart. but you can tell i am a smoker from the early wrinkles and skin discoloration that does come from the habit.
2) as it pertains to the name calling Joker you need to read back through it and see that yes you did start off the name calling toward me and i did what i will and i have no regrets for it you stated yourself that any debate on this topic was ignorant, but yet there you were to keep stoking the fire and spouting the same :**: over and over. I was never debating the point of what cigs will do to anyone. only the point of who's right it is to say where and how you enjoy your smoke, you say keep it away and i say its crap that I'm not allowed to have my own places too, ironically enough theres the point you were evading.
Theres tons more that can be said other points that can be addressed, such as the cost offsets etc etc, smokers do cover their incurred life debilitating habit costs be it with higher health care/life insurance premiums, or the resounding tax that goes to (ding dong) the G-MAN its already 16 times the cost of manufacture, and that money should go toward anti-campaigns, but they don't use it there do they. All in all its an individual(s) choice, the only area that really needs to be regulated by the "MAN" is what they are putting in the things. I did say i was going to quit (not many times) but it has been there and thats more due to the costs of the product than any other reason, but instead of kicking the habit i found ways to lessen the cost and still be able to enjoy what i choose. I also still stand on the area of where your putting your blame, Tobacco is additive its the nicotine in it and thats au natural, same as THC in MJ its the industries "additives" that make it so harmful to everyone so don't blame me or say that its because i choose to smoke that has your health at risk take some responsibility for your own actions If you don't want to be around it don't be, but never come into a place where its permitted and shut me out because you don't like it, and that is what has been done to smokers everywhere.
In the great words of Stan Lee... "Nuff Said"
1) i never in any of the posts said that i was disputing any of the info on smoking- I am aware (as are any smokers, all you have to do is read the side of the pack)) of the problems that can/are caused by the habit. as for the quote of my Dr. who cant find signs of it in my body, that statement is talking of area most commonly effected by smoking there is no sign of degradation in my lungs or heart. but you can tell i am a smoker from the early wrinkles and skin discoloration that does come from the habit.
2) as it pertains to the name calling Joker you need to read back through it and see that yes you did start off the name calling toward me and i did what i will and i have no regrets for it you stated yourself that any debate on this topic was ignorant, but yet there you were to keep stoking the fire and spouting the same :**: over and over. I was never debating the point of what cigs will do to anyone. only the point of who's right it is to say where and how you enjoy your smoke, you say keep it away and i say its crap that I'm not allowed to have my own places too, ironically enough theres the point you were evading.
Theres tons more that can be said other points that can be addressed, such as the cost offsets etc etc, smokers do cover their incurred life debilitating habit costs be it with higher health care/life insurance premiums, or the resounding tax that goes to (ding dong) the G-MAN its already 16 times the cost of manufacture, and that money should go toward anti-campaigns, but they don't use it there do they. All in all its an individual(s) choice, the only area that really needs to be regulated by the "MAN" is what they are putting in the things. I did say i was going to quit (not many times) but it has been there and thats more due to the costs of the product than any other reason, but instead of kicking the habit i found ways to lessen the cost and still be able to enjoy what i choose. I also still stand on the area of where your putting your blame, Tobacco is additive its the nicotine in it and thats au natural, same as THC in MJ its the industries "additives" that make it so harmful to everyone so don't blame me or say that its because i choose to smoke that has your health at risk take some responsibility for your own actions If you don't want to be around it don't be, but never come into a place where its permitted and shut me out because you don't like it, and that is what has been done to smokers everywhere.
In the great words of Stan Lee... "Nuff Said"
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parkingjoe
Guest
ok im saying my bit now i was 47 last tuesday and have smoked since the age of 15 ok its not big and its not clever but its my choice yet if i develop a smoking related desease my doctor/hospital will look upon me as some sort of leper yet a non smoker will have precedence over me on the for example heart by pass operation yet these non smokers havnt in my honest opinion paid their dues like me via 70% tax per packet of fags.
nuff said each to their own and i dont give a monkeys what people say its getting to be like a police state this crap hole u.k. nowadays big brother watching over you 24/7 with the catch ya speeding cameras on motorways (yeh rite) etc and on the spot fines for anything the pigs can think of-hey pigs why dont ya do your job and catch robbers/rapists etc etc.
pkj
nuff said each to their own and i dont give a monkeys what people say its getting to be like a police state this crap hole u.k. nowadays big brother watching over you 24/7 with the catch ya speeding cameras on motorways (yeh rite) etc and on the spot fines for anything the pigs can think of-hey pigs why dont ya do your job and catch robbers/rapists etc etc.
pkj
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POTUS
Guest
I'm going to tread very lightly here now, but I have to make a point.
A smoker who works full time, pays the cost of his/her choice, has health insurance that is specifically for a smoker with higher risks and doesn't make me smoke it with him/her, then fine, like Hick said, let them do as they wish.
However, reality is a real female dog. The health care costs for the results of smoking so far surpass what is put into the system, it just pisses me off. If someone comes into a hospital with no insurance and it's a smoking related health problem, what are we as a society supposed to do? Turn them away? Hell, the poor souls are choking to death! In the type of hospital that HAS to treat anyone who walks in, what type of cruel and unusual person would turn away someone on their way to death? They aren't turned away, which is a very, very cool thing to say about most humans, but in being accepted with no payment, they shift that cost to everyone, smokers and non-smokers in the form of MORE TAXES on us all. Smokers pay for them at the store, in public and again when they pay what the non-insured shove on em. I only pay once. We both pay their doctors.
It's a real drag. The enjoyment that smokers feel from that nicotine high is truly wonderful. I know it is. I pulled it in for more than 30 years. Man, first cup of java in the morning, first smoke, sitting on the porch, yeah, I remember the feeling.
I know now, however, that the feeling I was having was because of the relief of a physical addiction to nicotine. Now that's a drag. It made me feel better because I wasn't "Jonesin" any more.
Dudes and Dudettes, we're all in this crazy place for our time. Let's take it easy on each other and try to make it move towards "Utopia" just a tiny tad while we're alive.
Put those things down and get over the addiction. It doesn't take that long. Most of it is in your head.
That makes YOU live longer, US ALL have more, LESS death before it has to happen anyway, and once the craving is over, HAPPIER people.
I remember when I quit my two pack a day thing.
I hope they never find the bodies of those non-smokers I met that night...
hehe
Hey, I love you all. Every single one of you is the coolest person I've ever met.
Live happy, live long. By the time some of you are 40, I'll be 100, I hope.
So far, the doc has pretty much left me alone on the pot. I told him I'd fire him even if he is the best doctor I've ever had. He got a good laugh out of that. Of course, he gave me the old "Don't drive, don't over-do, don't drink more" speech.
A smoker who works full time, pays the cost of his/her choice, has health insurance that is specifically for a smoker with higher risks and doesn't make me smoke it with him/her, then fine, like Hick said, let them do as they wish.
However, reality is a real female dog. The health care costs for the results of smoking so far surpass what is put into the system, it just pisses me off. If someone comes into a hospital with no insurance and it's a smoking related health problem, what are we as a society supposed to do? Turn them away? Hell, the poor souls are choking to death! In the type of hospital that HAS to treat anyone who walks in, what type of cruel and unusual person would turn away someone on their way to death? They aren't turned away, which is a very, very cool thing to say about most humans, but in being accepted with no payment, they shift that cost to everyone, smokers and non-smokers in the form of MORE TAXES on us all. Smokers pay for them at the store, in public and again when they pay what the non-insured shove on em. I only pay once. We both pay their doctors.
It's a real drag. The enjoyment that smokers feel from that nicotine high is truly wonderful. I know it is. I pulled it in for more than 30 years. Man, first cup of java in the morning, first smoke, sitting on the porch, yeah, I remember the feeling.
I know now, however, that the feeling I was having was because of the relief of a physical addiction to nicotine. Now that's a drag. It made me feel better because I wasn't "Jonesin" any more.
Dudes and Dudettes, we're all in this crazy place for our time. Let's take it easy on each other and try to make it move towards "Utopia" just a tiny tad while we're alive.
Put those things down and get over the addiction. It doesn't take that long. Most of it is in your head.
That makes YOU live longer, US ALL have more, LESS death before it has to happen anyway, and once the craving is over, HAPPIER people.
I remember when I quit my two pack a day thing.
I hope they never find the bodies of those non-smokers I met that night...
hehe
Hey, I love you all. Every single one of you is the coolest person I've ever met.
Live happy, live long. By the time some of you are 40, I'll be 100, I hope.
So far, the doc has pretty much left me alone on the pot. I told him I'd fire him even if he is the best doctor I've ever had. He got a good laugh out of that. Of course, he gave me the old "Don't drive, don't over-do, don't drink more" speech.
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parkingjoe
Guest
well potus i cannot argue with that statement dude.
yeh smokin is the pits but its also an introduced thing by that prick sir walter raleigh and now the government are on his sorry assed side-they have stopped smokin in all public places in uk such as pubs cafes shops in fact everywhere yet if they felt so strongly about people they would outright ban it tomorrow-not gonna happen too much revenue to be lost thru us durty smokers.
lol
anyway just rolling another fag.
nighty night dudes
pkj
yeh smokin is the pits but its also an introduced thing by that prick sir walter raleigh and now the government are on his sorry assed side-they have stopped smokin in all public places in uk such as pubs cafes shops in fact everywhere yet if they felt so strongly about people they would outright ban it tomorrow-not gonna happen too much revenue to be lost thru us durty smokers.
lol
anyway just rolling another fag.
nighty night dudes
pkj
Dubbaman
A few toke's a day.
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Preach oh wise owlPOTUS said:
True enough in this situations case, but at the same time in my thinking during the fiasco was more on an individual basis. Oh and i know this will get some panties in a bunch but i have to say it just for thePOTUS said:
some will get, i was raised on the premise that if you cant pull your own weight you don't deserve the fruits, so i know of the public hospitals that we all get taxed for and thank heavens for the private ones that i choose to go to, but i still have to say if these people aren't willing to work for the money to care for themselves or their family's then they should be turned away still, it may end up with another plague outbreak but even then only the strong survived. Call it selfish if you wish but i had to fight for what i have, while i don't feel for all man like the current wold push is evolving into, I do think that there has to be a line in how many free rides and handouts are given to those who choose not to do their part. I know after my incarceration i had no place i was dropped off in town to a half way house and after they made sure i had a job and wasn't out hunting up trouble and missing parole meetings i was cut loose from the house, not enough time to have a descent sized savings for an apartment and those that i could get into turned me away for my (then) recent background, ultimately resulting in what would be called homeless for a time, but hey i overcame that had to do with out lots of things then and could have taken the handouts that some states offer things like welfare and food stamps but Christ by the time you spend waiting for appointments and applications it was actually faster to do it on my own, and life experience and upbringing has taught me that if your not willing to do it for yourself then it shouldn't be done for you. Now I'm just rambling again. Oh and as far as how long it took for me to get things in my life back in order it was just over 2 years on the street, the last 3 months were the worst of it staying in flea-bags to have an established address. Like i said too i got myself up off my rear by pulling on the boot straps so don't think I'm looking for any :fid:, i just wanted that out there to explain a bit as to why i said what i said about the health care issue.
clambake
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Man I hate the people who want to take the last of my personal rights. As a bar/restaurant owner it is MY right to allow whatever I want to happen in my establishment, unfortunatly the left wingers are trying to turn america into the united socialist states.
I aggree that second hand smoke can be dangerous, but not to the effect some of you seem to think, but this does not change my point above.
Also I dont' know the numbers on $$ generated by tobacco tax, but its got to be over the 31 billion in health care costs. Also if people don't have their own insurance or money to pay to go to the hospital why do all of us taxpayers have to pay for them?? Lazy people who won't get a job b/c its easier to live off welfare and have babies so they get 300 bucks a piece more from bush's economy incentive piss me off. These are the real problem with america, not someone smoking in an establishment whose owner allows it.
And banning smoking outside ***!!!! Despite what some of you think there is no way someone smoking outside is harming your health in any noticeable way.
I smoked for years a pack a day lets see we seem to be going with a 3.75 tax on cigs even though some places its more, like where i live just went up a whole dollar a pack 6 months ago, so 365 days times 4 dollars for easy math times 10 years = holy moly i've payed 14,600 dollars in taxes just for cigs.
Now take that number and you say it costs 10 bucks a pack in health care costs, how when i NEVER once had any smoking related health care costs in the 10 plus years i smoked?
Plus like people have said about insurance my buddy who smokes pays an extra shoot i can't remember exact number but for just himself its 25-50 bucks a week in health insurance and hes only 24.
So to some it all up QUIT trying to tell others how to live their lives!!!!
This goes along with any prohibition. All prohibition does is make criminals benefit, upstanding citizens are the only ones who suffer from prohibition.
*edit* I almost forgot some places are banning chewing tobacco along with cigs!! now no one here can tell me chewing tobacco harms anyone but the user. And as an American supposedly guaranteed to the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. How can someone tell me, "oh sir excuse me but you can't have that in your lip." Now if this was private property I would say ok you own this you have the right to tell me knock it off, but this was at some public places.
I wonder what the punishment is for this. Prolly get 5 years for having a dip at the uni. America is EDIT :holysheep: up in some ways, great in most, but man seems the sheep are learning to vote and sheep like communism, b/c they think everything should just be handed out as if resources were infinite with no one working. Although It would be funny if america went communist because all the hard workers who have built america would leave then all the sheep would die off in some catastrophe or another.
I aggree that second hand smoke can be dangerous, but not to the effect some of you seem to think, but this does not change my point above.
Also I dont' know the numbers on $$ generated by tobacco tax, but its got to be over the 31 billion in health care costs. Also if people don't have their own insurance or money to pay to go to the hospital why do all of us taxpayers have to pay for them?? Lazy people who won't get a job b/c its easier to live off welfare and have babies so they get 300 bucks a piece more from bush's economy incentive piss me off. These are the real problem with america, not someone smoking in an establishment whose owner allows it.
And banning smoking outside ***!!!! Despite what some of you think there is no way someone smoking outside is harming your health in any noticeable way.
I smoked for years a pack a day lets see we seem to be going with a 3.75 tax on cigs even though some places its more, like where i live just went up a whole dollar a pack 6 months ago, so 365 days times 4 dollars for easy math times 10 years = holy moly i've payed 14,600 dollars in taxes just for cigs.
Now take that number and you say it costs 10 bucks a pack in health care costs, how when i NEVER once had any smoking related health care costs in the 10 plus years i smoked?
Plus like people have said about insurance my buddy who smokes pays an extra shoot i can't remember exact number but for just himself its 25-50 bucks a week in health insurance and hes only 24.
So to some it all up QUIT trying to tell others how to live their lives!!!!
This goes along with any prohibition. All prohibition does is make criminals benefit, upstanding citizens are the only ones who suffer from prohibition.
*edit* I almost forgot some places are banning chewing tobacco along with cigs!! now no one here can tell me chewing tobacco harms anyone but the user. And as an American supposedly guaranteed to the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. How can someone tell me, "oh sir excuse me but you can't have that in your lip." Now if this was private property I would say ok you own this you have the right to tell me knock it off, but this was at some public places.
I wonder what the punishment is for this. Prolly get 5 years for having a dip at the uni. America is EDIT :holysheep: up in some ways, great in most, but man seems the sheep are learning to vote and sheep like communism, b/c they think everything should just be handed out as if resources were infinite with no one working. Although It would be funny if america went communist because all the hard workers who have built america would leave then all the sheep would die off in some catastrophe or another.
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