Nitrogen Deficiency in seedlings? (PICS)

[fortphoenix]

I would say at this point, you are probably better off using bottled water and the calmag(2ml) and about 2ml of maxigro to 1 gal of water.

alright man thanks for the advice, i ended up re-potting the slow growing ak so it wat deeper in the pot and took a few pics of the roots. i rinsed then dipped the plug in a mix of peroxide and water and rinsed the hydroton with peroxide. some of the roots were kinda brown but they weren't like slimey either and didnt smell so i guess thats a good thing

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[Hushpuppy]

I can't swear to it as I'm not there to see the roots with my own eyes, but they look like they have been stressed from being allowed to dry out to much between waterings. So burying the rooter deeper will help some but also make sure to water them enough. As I said before, with hydro you can under water but you can't over water as long as the water is well aerated. So technically, you could run a waterline up to each plant from the pump in the rez and run the water on a continuous drain and the plants would do great.

I wouldn't go to that right now as these seedlings are struggling, but you could top feed these on a schedule just like you would with the flooding. Have them water 6x or every 4hrs so that they don't dry out.

 

[fortphoenix]

I can't swear to it as I'm not there to see the roots with my own eyes, but they look like they have been stressed from being allowed to dry out to much between waterings. So burying the rooter deeper will help some but also make sure to water them enough. As I said before, with hydro you can under water but you can't over water as long as the water is well aerated. So technically, you could run a waterline up to each plant from the pump in the rez and run the water on a continuous drain and the plants would do great.

I wouldn't go to that right now as these seedlings are struggling, but you could top feed these on a schedule just like you would with the flooding. Have them water 6x or every 4hrs so that they don't dry out.

whats weird is the roots closest and touching the rapid rooter were the whitest with the most fuzzy hairs but they were also the skinniest snd probably most fragile, you can tell they were dry too but that definitely wouldn't be a bad idea once the plants are established since all i would need is the hose but i definitely need to get the flood and drain down before i try anything else and i was thinking about flooding every 4 hours, you think its time? i was also thinking about bringing the ppm up to 500 and someone said i should start adding my calmag plus, any thoughts on that? this stuff is just getting really annoying because in 4 days these plants are going to be in the hydroton a month and the shorter ak is only like 2.5" tall. its so frustrating

 

[Hushpuppy]

Well the problem is you started out wrong(and we've already figured that part out for next time) but that put you in a tail spin and now you are having to gradually pull the kids back out of it, and that takes a while when the roots have been damaged. That is why the seedling stage is sooo critical. Until those roots are established, the seedling is literally living on borrowed time. It makes sense that the roots closest to the rooter look the best as they are younger and have not been over dried. The initial roots that went out looking for water and nutes got really whacked and not the seedling (which has nearly used up the reserve nutrients in those cotyledons) is having to rebuild new roots with very little nutrients to pull from.

The problem now is that you have to be careful to not give the newest roots too much nutrient or they will burn up. I wouldn't raise the ppm to 500 yet. I would keep it no higher than ~350ppm for now and (regardless of whether you flood and drain or top feed/water) water them 4-6x a day. I would start with 4x and check the clay pebbles just before the next water and see how dry they are inside. If they are still drying out, go to 6x a day. Even though they need the nutes, giving them a higher dose is going to hurt more than help. Having the lower dose available to them constantly and consistently will pull them through. You must be patient with them and pull them out at their speed or they will crash on you.

 

[fortphoenix]

Well the problem is you started out wrong(and we've already figured that part out for next time) but that put you in a tail spin and now you are having to gradually pull the kids back out of it, and that takes a while when the roots have been damaged. That is why the seedling stage is sooo critical. Until those roots are established, the seedling is literally living on borrowed time. It makes sense that the roots closest to the rooter look the best as they are younger and have not been over dried. The initial roots that went out looking for water and nutes got really whacked and not the seedling (which has nearly used up the reserve nutrients in those cotyledons) is having to rebuild new roots with very little nutrients to pull from.

The problem now is that you have to be careful to not give the newest roots too much nutrient or they will burn up. I wouldn't raise the ppm to 500 yet. I would keep it no higher than ~350ppm for now and (regardless of whether you flood and drain or top feed/water) water them 4-6x a day. I would start with 4x and check the clay pebbles just before the next water and see how dry they are inside. If they are still drying out, go to 6x a day. Even though they need the nutes, giving them a higher dose is going to hurt more than help. Having the lower dose available to them constantly and consistently will pull them through. You must be patient with them and pull them out at their speed or they will crash on you.

yeah that makes sense and I'm just really worried about the dying leaves and yellowish/lime green color on the leaves and i just noticed the stems are a red/violet type color, i just sterilized absolutely everything today but unfortunately i put 500ppm, could i up the ppm if i put the light closer or if i put the light closer and watered more often? although the lower ppm with more frequent flooding definitely does sound better for recovery, I'm just afraid whatever deficiency I'm having is going to make things worse if i feed them less ppms.. I'm also battling another problem… i transplanted my northern lights (in rapid rooter) on jan 14th to 5” net pots and was hand watering once a day but after about 5 or 6 days, the plug dried out on one of the plants and i tried re watering it from the top but it still wasn’t moistening so i dipped the whole thing in water and it worked but shortly after the other northern lights plant out of nowhere became underwatered, so underwatered it wilted so bad that the leaves were touching and basically laying on the stem. so i watered them and they came back up but the tips of the leaves were pointing up and the tips started to turn crispy and dry, any idea what thats about? and like 4 days ago i put them closer to my 2-24w t5 (like 3"-4” away) and a day or 2 later the leaf tips are brown/burnt and the cotyledons are totally yellow/brown like the plants used everything in them... i have seen growth though, not very much but a little. so yesterday i hand watered with 5.8ph 250ppm maxigro and did the same again like 3 hours ago. the roots are still nowhere to be seen in the 5” net pot. any ideas on whats going on or what i should do or change? thanks bro. ill post pics of the

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[wordwar-ingreenink]

Your having a tuff go aren't ya fortpheonix. Just be patient some of the best help is here you may have to come to terms with this grow being shot but you'll have all correct info to begin again. Not saying to give up on this round just yet but yeah I'm sure you get my gist.

 

[wordwar-ingreenink]

I believe the purple stems and leaves like that may be a magnesium deficiency.

 

[fortphoenix]

Your having a tuff go aren't ya fortpheonix. Just be patient some of the best help is here you may have to come to terms with this grow being shot but you'll have all correct info to begin again. Not saying to give up on this round just yet but yeah I'm sure you get my gist.

I believe the purple stems and leaves like that may be a magnesium deficiency.

yeah definitely a rough start lol, things are starting to look up though, only thing I've notice is some brown spots on the 3rd set of leaves (middle) and the older leaves are curling up and dying so i think its either that or calcium from what i can see of a deficiency chart, i want to add some "calmag plus" but my ppm are already at 500

 

[Hushpuppy]

Hey I actually spent 30 minutes giving you some information but the system shut me out and wouldn't let my response function right

 

[Hushpuppy]

So lets try this again. Don't over think this. you are seeing all kinds of deficiency symptoms because the plants' roots have suffered and many have died from drying out too much, too often, and at too young an age. Those new roots were generated by the food of the cotyledons, but then the dry periods caused many of those longer roots to die so that the plants are not able to take in the water and nutes they need to keep going, so they have foundered.

Now they are trying to rebuild new roots to do what they need, however, they no longer have the abundant resource of the cotyledons to pull from and on several of them, the leaves aren't strong enough to stand being foliar fed. So the whole process has slowed to a crawl. Its kind of like a baby being born without a mouth that makes it able to take in milk from the mother. The babies are now having to rob elements from the living tissue in an attempt to rebuild the mouth it needs to eat. Right now, they have redeveloped small nostrils that allow them to take in small amounts of water and nutrients, and these small things are just keeping the plants alive, but its helping. It is just going to take longer.

Be patient and water them more often (with well aerated water) You won't drown them as long as the water you use is well aerated. Don't try to do anything else at this point as they MUST grow and repair at their own speed. You can't speed up the healing process or they will crash.

 

[Hushpuppy]

I would highly recommend that you pick up a bottle of Root66,(all you need is the small bottle as it doesn't take much) which is a root tonic that gives the plants some of the elements that it needs for specifically building roots. I use this on all of my clones and seedlings to get their root mass built up well before the plants take off into the veg stage. I would also recommend that you get a small bottle of Thrive Alive. This is a plant tonic that helps the younger plants get going good with several of the micro elements that young plants need to get going good. I only use about half of what each of these recommend but I can tell that they do work well.

Increase the watering on the plants that are hand watered. Don't let them dry out at all if you can help it. Increase the flooding to 6x in 24hrs. The 500ppm is a little high but I think it will be ok. Make sure the pH stays right at 5.8-6.0 for now. Don't let it drift far from 5.9 if you can help it right now. In a few days, add in some of the Root66 so that can help repair those roots. And be patient, you can't rush this

 

[fortphoenix]

Hey I actually spent 30 minutes giving you some information but the system shut me out and wouldn't let my response function right

So lets try this again. Don't over think this. you are seeing all kinds of deficiency symptoms because the plants' roots have suffered and many have died from drying out too much, too often, and at too young an age. Those new roots were generated by the food of the cotyledons, but then the dry periods caused many of those longer roots to die so that the plants are not able to take in the water and nutes they need to keep going, so they have foundered.

Now they are trying to rebuild new roots to do what they need, however, they no longer have the abundant resource of the cotyledons to pull from and on several of them, the leaves aren't strong enough to stand being foliar fed. So the whole process has slowed to a crawl. Its kind of like a baby being born without a mouth that makes it able to take in milk from the mother. The babies are now having to rob elements from the living tissue in an attempt to rebuild the mouth it needs to eat. Right now, they have redeveloped small nostrils that allow them to take in small amounts of water and nutrients, and these small things are just keeping the plants alive, but its helping. It is just going to take longer.

Be patient and water them more often (with well aerated water) You won't drown them as long as the water you use is well aerated. Don't try to do anything else at this point as they MUST grow and repair at their own speed. You can't speed up the healing process or they will crash.

I would highly recommend that you pick up a bottle of Root66,(all you need is the small bottle as it doesn't take much) which is a root tonic that gives the plants some of the elements that it needs for specifically building roots. I use this on all of my clones and seedlings to get their root mass built up well before the plants take off into the veg stage. I would also recommend that you get a small bottle of Thrive Alive. This is a plant tonic that helps the younger plants get going good with several of the micro elements that young plants need to get going good. I only use about half of what each of these recommend but I can tell that they do work well.

Increase the watering on the plants that are hand watered. Don't let them dry out at all if you can help it. Increase the flooding to 6x in 24hrs. The 500ppm is a little high but I think it will be ok. Make sure the pH stays right at 5.8-6.0 for now. Don't let it drift far from 5.9 if you can help it right now. In a few days, add in some of the Root66 so that can help repair those roots. And be patient, you can't rush this

damn I'm sorry i know that mustve been really frustrating, thank you for typing a response over again though, i appreciate it!!! but i get exactly what you're saying and the growth has picked up a bit since my last comment especially since i repotted my smaller AK so it was deeper in he pot... i was just really concerned with the calcium deficiency because i read it stunts growth but someone else told me to leave it alone too and the brown spots havent gotten any worse. I'm going to bring up flood times too and I'm making sure my PH is optimal, checking it every few hours as well. and I'm pretty sure my northern lights have recovered because they're growing (the damaged leaves still havent recovered and i assume they won't) and I'm hand watering the northern lights with 300ppm water... I'm thinking about just putting the northern lights in the flood table in the beginning of february but not underneath the light, in the corner/edge of the tray, even though they're doing fine with the 300ppm and they've been sprouted 20 days I'm just afraid the 500ppm will be too much for young plants, plus transplanting too early is what originally ****** me with the AK48 lol but I'm wondering if those products you mentioned work with h2o2. someone mentioned the root66 to me before but i cant remember if it works with h2o2. it sucks though, I've woke up the past 2 mornings with everything in my tent shut off (good thing it hasn't been more then 6 hours each time) for absolutely no reason. and the worst part is my humidifier thats plugged into the wall instead of the 6-way extension cord w/switch kept humidifying and had my room at 90% humidity, so i switched my humidifier plug with my airstone plug so if it happens again atleast my humidifier will shut off and my water will stay aerated and prevent mold/algae buildup. i just hope that didnt mess with the plants too much

 

[Hushpuppy]

Yeah, you need to look into that. At this early stage, you definitely don't want the lights and heat cutting off. Those plants have struggled a while now and keeping everything balanced and stable is what they need to get over the hump.

Don't worry about the dead and dying leaves at this point. As the plants recover and take off, they will use up any available nutrients in those leaves to build new leaves, and then the plants will just drop those damaged leaves when they are done with them. Within a few weeks of normal growth, those little damaged leaves will be gone and forgotten.

Once you see the hand watered plants begin to take off with new growth, then you can move them to the 500ppm. Then as they all respond and begin taking off growing, you can increase the nutes to 800ppm for "full veg"

 

[fortphoenix]

Yeah, you need to look into that. At this early stage, you definitely don't want the lights and heat cutting off. Those plants have struggled a while now and keeping everything balanced and stable is what they need to get over the hump.

Don't worry about the dead and dying leaves at this point. As the plants recover and take off, they will use up any available nutrients in those leaves to build new leaves, and then the plants will just drop those damaged leaves when they are done with them. Within a few weeks of normal growth, those little damaged leaves will be gone and forgotten.

Once you see the hand watered plants begin to take off with new growth, then you can move them to the 500ppm. Then as they all respond and begin taking off growing, you can increase the nutes to 800ppm for "full veg"

yeah things have definitely gotten better but i assume they still aren't growing anywhere near as fast as they should, even though their growth has improved, i actually really white/fuzzy roots coming out of the top of the rapid rooter in the taller AK but now I'm facing some sort of calcium deficiency i think. i got rust/dead spots on lower/middle leaves (really hard to get a picture of it) and lower leaves still yellowing and slight yellowing on new growth tips. I've been letting my ph run a little high (let it go to 6.2 then drop it back down) to try and have better up take of the calcium. I'm just compelled on if i should use my cal-mag plus because as it is my tap water is 150ppm and the calmag plus adds 60ppm per ml/gal and the bottle recommends 3-5ml so even if i use 2.5 ml/gal ill already be at 300ppm before i even add any maxigro which is why I've been trying to see if letting the ph drift a little bit will work. I'm thinking it might because so far it has drifted from 5.8 to 6.1 then down to 5.93 in the course of a couple floods

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[wordwar-ingreenink]

They look alot better but they do still look a little hungry

 

[Hushpuppy]

yeah it looks like they are going to be fine now (the bigger ones). I would increase the nutrients to 500-600ppm and add the calmag. The smaller ones, you need to keep at a lower dose for another few days until you see them get more growth under them. After you move to feeding the bigger ones, give them a week to see how they react to the higher dose of nutes. If it is positive all the way, then you can increase on the next run to 700-800ppm and that should be good for full growth. Being in that hydro, you will need to keep the calmag going at about 3ml per gallon I think. And then when they go to flower, increase it to 4-5ml per gallon.

 

[fortphoenix]

They look alot better but they do still look a little hungry

thanks and yeah thats whats messing me, up i cant tell if its a deficiency because my ppm isn't high enough or because the maxigro lacks nutes and its sucks too because my ppms raise like 50-100ppm per week on their own from the dissolved water because i don't have a cover on my res

 

[fortphoenix]

yeah it looks like they are going to be fine now (the bigger ones). I would increase the nutrients to 500-600ppm and add the calmag. The smaller ones, you need to keep at a lower dose for another few days until you see them get more growth under them. After you move to feeding the bigger ones, give them a week to see how they react to the higher dose of nutes. If it is positive all the way, then you can increase on the next run to 700-800ppm and that should be good for full growth. Being in that hydro, you will need to keep the calmag going at about 3ml per gallon I think. And then when they go to flower, increase it to 4-5ml per gallon.

yeah I'm definitely going to bring up the ppm and see how it works for me and I'm definitely going to be adding the cal-mag because i can start to see the shorter AK developing some sort of deficiency, I'm thinking about just grabbing a reverse osmosis system (200 GPD for $225) tomorrow so i know my water is starting from a clean slate but thank you so much for sticking with me and helping me out this whole time hushpuppy i really do appreciate it man!!

 

[Hushpuppy]

No problem my friend That's why I'm here, I enjoy helping new growers get going, and helping older growers who have forgot something that a fresh, experienced brain can see more easily. I used to be an electronics/mechanical technician. Analytical troubleshooting is my mindset, so now that I am unable to do what I used to do, I enjoy doing it for MJ growers.

 

[Hushpuppy]

Don't let the ppm trip you up though. It is important as it gives you information that you need to optimize the conditions of the grow, but it isn't always so critical as it is for seedlings. Its so important for seedlings because they have new tender roots that need to get established before getting hit with (chemical)nutrients, and there is no back up roots if they get burned up.

But once the roots have established themselves and get some chemical bath, they get used to it and are able to quickly ramp up the ppm (which is the concentration of the chemicals in the medium or solution). The littlest seedlings are still needing special care but the larger ones are good to go on ramping up the nutes.

You will see your ppm numbers rise many times, especially in hydro where you are continuously checking. But you will get the hang of knowing how far to let the ppm rise before having to change the water. many times, you will see the ppm rise and think the plants aren't eating but that is just the plants have drank more than they ate which caused the ratio of chems to water to rise.