dont mention LED's

[ston-loc]

I must have missed that skimming the ought the **. So they actually pull that wattage? Or it's equivalent to that of hid? Legit question. I just am high and not understanding the advantage to experiment with something new if the draw is it is more efficient, yet takes the same power to match yields. My mind is open. I just haven't read, or get a reason to go led if you still have to pull the same electricity bill.

 

[Roddy]

The bleaching/burning isn't just caused by heat from the lamps, for the most part, but is thought so by many because of the heat that HIDs put out. It's actually caused by the intensity of the light put out by the lamps and is diminished the same way that heat is.....move the source further away. Now some might want to argue that statement and I expect it from expereance...but of coarse the lights will burn your plants if too, close even with T-5s. I know that and most everybody else knows that as well. When/if I get a chance I'll provide links to where I got my info for what I'm about to say.

I guess what throws me is how LED can be more powerful than the HID up close yet lose that power so fast as it moves away from the source.

 

[Growdude]

I must have missed that skimming the ought the **. So they actually pull that wattage? Or it's equivalent to that of hid? Legit question. I just am high and not understanding the advantage to experiment with something new if the draw is it is more efficient, yet takes the same power to match yields. My mind is open. I just haven't read, or get a reason to go led if you still have to pull the same electricity bill.

This is what ive been saying all along in this thread.

I did e-mail Cidly and was told that a a Apollo 12 would replace a 1000 watt HPS.
So it is the manufacturer claim PJ.

But no one in this thread is doing that, they are at or above the same usage as past HPS grows.
So what are the actual advantages?

If LED puts out so much more usable light than HPS why are we using the same if not more LED watts?

 

[BackWoodsDrifter]

Well I tried toi change topics direction and make folks think of friendlier thoughts here at this fire. Turns out nothing can be done here this trail walkin so guess I be one to change trails and not be lookin back to this one. nothin but angry pilgrems here. Hope yual able to mend wounds carved in time.

BWD

 

[Roddy]

This topic is close to many of our hearts, so to speak, BWD, we truly want to hear info on this. While we do wish to hear info, it shouldn't be biased (or misleading or worse) but honest experience and proven data. As I've said before, I don't want some newb to come in, read a few posts and figure the LED is the way to go, let them get the whole picture before making that leap!

It is rather unfortunate the way this thread has gone, one member shooting one's self in the foot. It's gonna be hard to accept much that is spoken by that person which is a shame as I'm sure they could offer info...and it just builds that distrust (that was already there), making it harder to get the real honest info heard.

 

[pcduck]

Well I tried toi change topics direction and make folks think of friendlier thoughts here at this fire. Turns out nothing can be done here this trail walkin so guess I be one to change trails and not be lookin back to this one. nothin but angry pilgrems here. Hope yual able to mend wounds carved in time.

BWD

Yeah and that turned into a booger tossing contest of who is who, and when they were the who, they are.:rofl:

 

[BackWoodsDrifter]

I understand pilgrem. I truly do! I would hope we could have a thread here though based on this new technology but without the childish drama and mud slingin! People want to come to these threads to get edumacated not read bunch crap focused on percieved person attacks and shet slingin. I for one dont appreciate it when its done constant and without consideration of those who just seek the knowledge of this subject. Knowledge is all one should find here not folks personal points of views that are designed to do nothin but poke the angry badger with a stick to see what dust yual can kick up. Leave it out of the threads and takes it to pms!!! Leave the rest of us out of it is all I be askin as we dont want it fireside and niether would our guests.

I said me peace on this now and walkin away from a fireside that does not feel welcoming as I dont like to see folk I like or care about act in such juvinile behaivours. Hope yual heal wounds in time. And I truly hope yual dont take it to levels were we dont see folks gain cause of a banning or somethin

BWD

 

[niteshft]

Comparing apples to oranges is a difficult thing....do I know what it takes to replace HIDs with LEDs? I don't have a clue but got these Apollo 6s as a starting point and somewhere down the road, I might, to a certain degree. I thought that was evident when I explained disabling 1/3 of my light to (1) reduce it's intensity (2) lower electrical cost.

Making it more confusing, your actually trying to compare apples to oranges and pairs....LEDs vs HIDs and T-5s if you want to discuss the vegging aspect of the grow and we really should.

Someone said Cidly claims a Alollo 12 will replace a 1000w HPS...maybe so, but I wouldn't try to replace an HID with a single light unless you use a 1000w for a single plant. I don't know anyone that does so I would go with smaller lights and more of them. The reason being is how the LEDs direct thier light down on the plant, limiting the growing footprint if using a single light, you just can't sqeeze 6 plants under a single Apollo 12. In that way, they are simular to T-5s where you need to have the plant directly under the light, but different as they do cast light beyond the perimeter of the light itself by the lens used. (apples to pairs) I believe it's been explained before, a 60 degree lens would be good for growing plants that haven't been topped as much and grown less bushy while the 120 degree lens will spred out the light and cover a plant that has been trained into a larger bush.

As far as penetration goes, there is still a question in my mind as to the actual penetration power of the LEDs in comparason to HIDs but I have no doubt that the LEDs out-perform T-5s. While you can have a T-5 directly over the plant as long as they don't touch, LEDs need at least 18 inches clearance or they will burn/bleach. That says alot in my mind about the penetration power of LEDs. I can only assume by trial and error because I don't have the equipment companys use to test lights. I just know what I've been achieving with HIDs in comparason to LEDs and haven't used them in veg, yet.

As far as better/stronger smell and taste, again, it's been stated previously how I believe that is happening, at least with the lights I have. Remember, these lights were built to order and have 5 different wavelengths/temps put together. Plants use various, I'll just call them color temps or just temps, dependant on the part of the plant. Typically you hear of 2700k or 6400k depending on wether you want to veg or flower. I don't have the info in front of me so I don't have the actual numbers to give you but the plant uses more than a single wavelength for veg or flower.

There are 2 different types of cloraphyll in the plant and each use a different temp of the spectrum and is the bulk of the light required to produce a decent plant.

The part of the plant that produces aroma uses a different temp but the amount required is no where near that of cloraphyll.

The part of the plant that makes flavor uses another temp and like the plant part responsible for aroma the amount required is far less than cloraphyll.

We can't forget oils now can we? It is what we are all here for, lol. The part of the plant responsible for oil production takes yet another temp and if memory serves me right, it needs more of that wavelength than what aroma or flavor requires.

If I come across the actual info I'll post a link but it might be at cidly's website, I just don't remember. But anyway, that is what these lights are designed for and a word of caution, resellers may not have thiers set up that way and you should ask. I've inserted a template earlier as to how mine and PJ's are set up. It's this fine tuning that is responsible for the increased quality and you just can't dial in HIDs like that, IMO, as I explained recently.

Nutes is another issue that has been brought up and I have been giving it a lot of thought lately. I grow in dirt and nute issues can be troblesome in that nute issues show up much more slowly than say hydro where changes can be seen almost emediately in comparason. PJ grows hydro and has found that nutes need to be reduced. I didn't think my issue was nutes because I hadn't made any changes from previous grows that have been dialed in for the plants I'm running.

Seeing what PJ has discovered I'm begining to think I may have a lock-out issue since I haven't made any changes to accomadate the LEDs. Having the lights dialed in for the specific needs for the different parts of the plant changes the requirements for nutes as parts of the plant is now using nutes at different levels because they may have been dormant from lack of a specific temp available to them with the HIDs. Of corse this is just speculation on my part but makes sence to me. If a plant part is dormant from lack of the temp required for it to function properly, it leaves those nutes for the other plant parts that are functioning. With a dialed in light those extra nutes are now not available as those plant parts are kicking into gear and it's a matter of trial and error to get the nutes dialed in again.

This may all sound very complex and it is and it isn't. It's difficult to wrap your head around a new techknowledgy, especially while being skepticle, but that's why this thread has been started. Be patient (and play nice) and as we move forward I'll post what I do and show my results. That's all I have to offer as I try to wrap my own head around this tech.

Thanks

niteshft

 

[DrFever]

I am sorry but have to chuckle when i here someone saying the taste or smell of the bud <--- this all falls under genetics, and proper drying and curing of the bud

 

[Locked]

I am sorry but have to chuckle when i here someone saying the taste or smell of the bud <--- this all falls under genetics, and proper drying and curing of the bud

And that's your opinion....thankfully some like to push the envelope and believe we can improve on Mother Nature. And that's my opinion.

 

[P Jammers]

I must have missed that skimming the ought the **. So they actually pull that wattage? Or it's equivalent to that of hid? Legit question. I just am high and not understanding the advantage to experiment with something new if the draw is it is more efficient, yet takes the same power to match yields. My mind is open. I just haven't read, or get a reason to go led if you still have to pull the same electricity bill.

UV and Blue LEDs run at 3.8V input voltage; Red LED run at 2.6V input voltage; IR LED run at 1.7V input voltage. All run at 700mA input current.

If one was to search the standard Apollo 6 they would see a wattage given, however if they are tweaked to a specific design like I did with these the actual wattage is changed, hence the power draw shown by your meter NS.

It's pretty standard for a company to give a wattage based on the combination of bulbs at 3 watts each, meaning if the cluster has 40 bulbs at 3 watts each they will call it 120 watts. That said if the colors are more red the wattage will drop, and visa versa.

Each of your lights are 194 watts which if you were comparing to an HPS bulb you are getting about the effectiveness of a 400 watt HPS bulb for each fixture, which is why you are seeing an increase of lower flowers, and not the typical popcorn seen from HPS bulbs.

I also wanted to note for Niteshft since I am no longer a member of another site where I was sharing info as I heard through the grapevine.

I was under the impression when you asked for my help that you wanted to make your plants increase yield, and because your legal numbers were a concern you asked me what "I" would do. I was never under the impression that you were trying to save on power, so we tried to match what you were running power wise but increase effectiveness.

If I steered you wrong I am sorry for that, as well as My My. Neither of you ever mentioned you wanted to save on power, so in both cases I doubled your intensity while pretty much keeping total power consumption the same.

I am glad to hear that your results have gotten better making the switch, as that was the intention I had in mind.

Rule of thumb in case that info has gotten crossed. A 300 watt LED has the effectiveness or useable light of a 600 watt HPS setup. A lot of companies say it is about three times, but the real facts are closer to about twice the amount of useable light.

Hope that clears up some info for you.

PJ

Maybe that is what u were looking for?

@niteshft

Your LED modules are not the same as what you showed in my earlier charts, which BTW pretty sure I asked you and My My both not to show. It was an earlier design that was flawed due to being too hot. Take a look at your receipt for the actual LED's used.

 

[my my]

@pj
I remember you asking not to share the LED combo. and i haven't..

I can confirm that the smell is indeed different between the LED lights////
HPS Light, and also outdoor grow..
As i had 3 plants (all the same strain) Crazy Horse..
I will snap a few pics. later today to share with you folks..
No i have not taste tested yet...
But again, the LED bud looks different, and certainly smells different...
So IMO, Yes the LED lights do change the color of the bud, and the smell,, like i said i can not comment on tatse and quality yet, becouse i have not sampled... Probaboly next saturday or Sunday i will try the LED grown weed for my 1st buzz of the day to tell if there is a taste and buzz difference....
anyway, things to do now, so i will snap a few shots of the buds that are curing in mason jars and post them later today...
my my

 

[niteshft]

I am sorry but have to chuckle when i here someone saying the taste or smell of the bud <--- this all falls under genetics, and proper drying and curing of the bud

Yeah, and so isn't everything else about the plant. The whole idea about growing indoors is to try and understand the genetic workings of the plant in order to be better able to produce the very best product under artificial conditions. That's the reason for sites like this in the first place...for like minded folk to get together and share what they are doing in hopes of helping out each other produce the best possible product. How that was lost here is beyond me.

 

[Roddy]

This may all sound very complex and it is and it isn't. It's difficult to wrap your head around a new techknowledgy, especially while being skepticle, but that's why this thread has been started. Be patient (and play nice) and as we move forward I'll post what I do and show my results. That's all I have to offer as I try to wrap my own head around this tech.

It does sound complicated, and I am glad for people trying new things. I'll keep watching!

 

[Roddy]

@pj
I remember you asking not to share the LED combo. and i haven't..

I can confirm that the smell is indeed different between the LED lights////
HPS Light, and also outdoor grow..
As i had 3 plants (all the same strain) Crazy Horse..
I will snap a few pics. later today to share with you folks..
No i have not taste tested yet...
But again, the LED bud looks different, and certainly smells different...
So IMO, Yes the LED lights do change the color of the bud, and the smell,, like i said i can not comment on tatse and quality yet, becouse i have not sampled... Probaboly next saturday or Sunday i will try the LED grown weed for my 1st buzz of the day to tell if there is a taste and buzz difference....
anyway, things to do now, so i will snap a few shots of the buds that are curing in mason jars and post them later today...
my my

Has this happened over and over? I know that my clones of OG (same cutting) have different smells and taste even grown in the same conditions. Not trying to argue, just pointing out my experiences.

nm...thanks for the pm!

 

[niteshft]

Maybe that is what u were looking for?

@niteshft

Your LED modules are not the same as what you showed in my earlier charts, which BTW pretty sure I asked you and My My both not to show. It was an earlier design that was flawed due to being too hot. Take a look at your receipt for the actual LED's used.

No PJ, that's not it, it was results of research into the light needs of the plant and I don't remember where I saw it. It described the various temp requirements for the different functions of the plant and broke it down to percentages of total light for each function.

I don't recollect you telling me to keep that chart to myself or I would have. I was in belief you had shown it to me as a true representation of the way my lights were set up and I apologise if I missed something.

 

[P Jammers]

This is what ive been saying all along in this thread.

I did e-mail Cidly and was told that a a Apollo 12 would replace a 1000 watt HPS.
So it is the manufacturer claim PJ.

But no one in this thread is doing that, they are at or above the same usage as past HPS grows.
So what are the actual advantages?

If LED puts out so much more usable light than HPS why are we using the same if not more LED watts?

Interesting, except this is what you said the first time:

This is what I have a problem with, the Apollo 6 claims it will replace a 400 hps all day. hxxp://www.genericled.com/shop/apollo-6/

A single apollo 10 replaces a 1000 watt hxxp://www.genericled.com/shop/apollo-10/, that should be the same as 6000 watts in PJ's grow.

We should be seeing results at least twice as good, while there is no question they are growing extremely well its just not matching the manufactures claims.
Therefore the cost savings are negligible with only saving on cooling and bulbs.

So which statement are you going with?

I'm confused. If you emailed Cidly, why did you post what genericled is saying?

I will say you are correct on one account. The 12 will replace a 1000watt HPS, but the total draw of power is only 430 watts.

Again, about twice the usable light at half the cost. I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make.

 

[WeedHopper]

Guys,,this really isnt goen anywhere.Its like Religion and Politics. Why keep arguing about something you are never gonna agree on. Just agree to disagree and lets move on.

 

[Locked]

Yeah, and so isn't everything else about the plant. The whole idea about growing indoors is to try and understand the genetic workings of the plant in order to be better able to produce the very best product under artificial conditions. That's the reason for sites like this in the first place...for like minded folk to get together and share what they are doing in hopes of helping out each other produce the best possible product. How that was lost here is beyond me.

:yeahthat: :goodposting:

 

[niteshft]

Has this happened over and over? I know that my clones of OG (same cutting) have different smells and taste even grown in the same conditions. Not trying to argue, just pointing out my experiences.

Originally Posted by my my
@pj
I remember you asking not to share the LED combo. and i haven't..

I am curious as to why this was asked?

It's right there in the thread, PJ said there were heat issues with that configuration. Not trying to be disrespectfull or anything but maybe if you moved back from the edge of your seat and sit back and relax you might absorb what you read better. It's the post just prior to the one you responded to, I believe.