Strain/Type Advice

[TexasMonster]

No, the f-2 generation is never true breeding. If the f-1 was the progeny of two stablized parent seedlines, then it will generally have a single phenotype, and all will look alike. While it will have an appearance of being true breeding because all the f-1`s look alike, it is not true-breeding in reality. All outcrosses are unstable, by definition. However, let`s say for argument`s sake that the f-1 has a single phenotype. Then the f-2 will produce at least three phenotypes. Fifty percent of the f-2`s will look like the f-1, while twenty five percent will look more like IBL parent A and the remaining twenty-five percent will look more like IBL parent B. These are rough approximations.

So, the f-2 generation, then, is where the genetic heritage of the two IBL`s (inbred parent lines) begins to open up for the breeder. Now, if the f-1 has two phenotypes, and you select one parent from each phenotype to inbreed and create f-2 seed with, the loss in hybrid vigour will be less dramatic and noticeable in the f-2 progeny than if you were to select two parents with the same f-1 phenotype. It is a well established fact that the f-2 seed has less hybrid vigour than the f-1. If max yield, taste, and potency is what you desire, be strict about growing true f-1 seed stock! - RT

Thank You. I believe that its gonna take me a while before I get all that. I am going to have to learn where to acquire true f-1 seedstock. I think you may have given me a hint in the post above this one. Just to be clear, you are saying that some sites may say F-1 and it not be entirely true?

 

[umbra]

unfortunately growing F1, F2 seeds means little unless you are breeding. since this is your first grow, use as inexpensive of a seed as possible, so you can learn how to grow without risking alot of money on seeds. the fact that nirvana sells something other than an F1 of a particular strain, should not keep you from using them. many people have used their seeds and are very happy. they may have been F2 or bred with another strain, but will get you couch locked none the less. and thats what you said you wanted.

 

[TexasMonster]

unfortunately growing F1, F2 seeds means little unless you are breeding. since this is your first grow, use as inexpensive of a seed as possible, so you can learn how to grow without risking alot of money on seeds. the fact that nirvana sells something other than an F1 of a particular strain, should not keep you from using them. many people have used their seeds and are very happy. they may have been F2 or bred with another strain, but will get you couch locked none the less. and thats what you said you wanted.

Noted. I am starting to get a little confused.

I noticed that Sensi Seeds wont send seeds to the United States of America.

I Think I am going to take some hard apple cider and a joint and go sit on the front porch for a little bit. :bolt:

 

[Rolling Thunder]

I love outcrossing and running strains down to see what hidden traits are buried in. If running a breeding project or trying to find that amazing pheno you should keep the parents, but run any crosses down to at least F3 to see what kinda demons are buried. They will show themselves sooner or later. For cloning style growing then i agree with what you said and just get the F1 and roll with it.

Yes, outcrossing is a most necessary breeding technique for exploring the hidden recessives of a pheno. Not every outcross succeeds at bringing them out, so one must outcross to several different pheno`s to find the right hook-up, that will bring them out into full expression. Still, at the very same time, while outcrossing to explore the genetics, one is also inbreeding, several generations, for the very same reason(s): to open up and express the pheno`s genetics. However, there are things that only an outcross will or can reveal about a plant`s recessive genetics; as the more inbred it is, the more locked-in those hidden qualities are. It makes sense to try unlocking and expressing them through outcrossing. - RT

 

[Rolling Thunder]

I am going to have to learn where to acquire true f-1 seedstock. I think you may have given me a hint in the post above this one. Just to be clear, you are saying that some sites may say F-1 and it not be entirely true?

Yes, that is what I`m saying. You need to read between the lines. It`s not so much that they explicitly claim their seed is f-1, as they do not disclose the fact that it is f-2 or f-3. For me, unless a website explicitly states that the seed is f-1, then I automatically interpret that as a sign that it is not f-1.

I have never seen a commercial seed vendor explicitly admit or advertize that any of his seed stock is f-2. That would devalue it and he would not be able to charge as much, if he could even sell it. There are times, though, when f-2`s will be in high demand, and that is as I said earlier, when the f-1 seed or clone is no longer available.

However, even when a vendor makes an explicit claim that it is f-1 seed, I do not necessarily believe it all the time. You can guarantee that the claim is often falsified for financial gain. You must use discernment. F-1 seed is easy enough to find. Many companies selling f-2 knock-offs as f-1 gear, usually also sell f-1 seed of hybrids they or some other hack threw together just to make a quick buck.

But there are several legit seed companies that don`t bother themselves with f-2`s, for any reason. All their gear is f-1, or IBL status. Usually the f-1`s far outnumber the IBL`s; and before long, the f-2`s on the market will far outnumber the f-1`s. As I said, if you have no interest in hobby breeding, for max potency, stick to the f-1`s and keep clone mothers.

That`s a general rule of thumb; though as Mutt rightly observed, there are instances when a better tasting pheno can be found in the f-2 or f-3 generation; and even a more potent pheno than any of the f-1`s. However, those instances are, strictly speaking, more rare and exceptions to the rule. - RT

 

[maryjanenewbie]

if i knew what i do now and had the area your working with i would go with a 400w MH/HPS and use auto flower, cause you prob dont have room for a second grow room. im having that issue now. i want to clone but dont know if the timing for vegging my clones and current flowering will coincide. dont have to worry about that with autos. oh, and as far as a good seed co. i suggest NIRVANA, they take credit cards, so you get your order fast, and they all germed and plants are strong.

 

[Killuminati420]

Another Question (this is going to be my question thread I expect) All the Mexican Commercial grass that goes around and gets smoked, what is it? Sativa/Indica/Ruderalis?

what is this "Mexican Commercial Grass" you speak of?
haha but for real, ive never seen or even smoked mexican weed, ive heard "its the worst in the world". how bad is that? like worse than fan leaves?
~~~~~~~~~~~~:heart: Oregon :heart:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[TexasMonster]

what is this "Mexican Commercial Grass" you speak of?
haha but for real, ive never seen or even smoked mexican weed, ive heard "its the worst in the world". how bad is that? like worse than fan leaves?
~~~~~~~~~~~~:heart: Oregon :heart:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Having proximity to Mexico we have a lot of grass over here from Mexico. Its fair, its never the same. You buy a Qp one month and go back the next month and they have another kind of grass. Sometimes its better than others and sometimes it taste good and sometimes it dont. It is what it is and its really cheap for us here in the Lone Star State.

I've only been around hydro once. Completely different. I want to get there but I dont wanna pay those hydro prices. I raise vegetables for a living, so I have a fair amount of knowledge there. I've read and heard that many things can go wrong in a grow and I just want to get it right if at all possible.

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

I have never seen a commercial seed vendor explicitly admit or advertize that any of his seed stock is f-2. That would devalue it and he would not be able to charge as much, if he could even sell it. There are times, though, when f-2`s will be in high demand, and that is as I said earlier, when the f-1 seed or clone is no longer available.

- RT

LOL--you must not have looked at many seed companies if you do not see vendors advertising F2s.

There are many quality F2 seeds out there.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

LOL--you must not have looked at many seed companies if you do not see vendors advertising F2s.

You're partially right. I'm not up on most seed vendors, nor do I wish to pretend otherwise. But! I have been around for awhile and have looked at more than a few vendor websites, in my time; and I confess that as I began to write this, I remembered one vendor that does explicity identify some of his gear as f-2: The Hemp Depot. I'm referring to Joey Weed's seeds. Joey does in fact call it like it is: an f-2. Kudos to him for doint that. I respect him for that, as well as for rescuing the BG's A-11 and C-99. That is certainly a valiant and noble thing for him to do, to be sure.

However! It was clearly implied in what I wrote that f-2's of high quality strains no longer available as an f-1 seed or clone are out there, in the market ... and gladly so. It is a different story when the original f-1 is still available, and even easily accessible, from the original breeder. Knock-offs of those are not usually labelled as 'f-2', not that I readily remember anyway, but I remain open to correction if someone wants to produce the undeniable evidence. If anyone can recall instances of that, please post your recollections here. Qualification: We are talking only about f-2's of f-1 strains and varieties still currently available from the "original" breeder.

There are many quality F2 seeds out there.

Did I deny that? If I did, then please accept my apology. It is completely possible to find a superior pheno of strains in their f-2 or f-3 generation, if a person grows out enough of the seed. Take potency for example. Let`s say that Parent A is 25% THC, on a good day; and Parent B is 17% THC, but the better yielder of the two. Breeding them together will produce f-1 offspring of around 21% THC, roughly speaking. Not as potent as Parent A. However, if you sift the f-2, you will find a Parent A dominant pheno, equal to Parent A in potency, but also able to yield better than Parent A, thanks to the genetic influence of Parent B. These kind of f-2`s are `quality`f-2`s, undeniably, and most welcome additions to anyone`s line-up.

But please do not read that as an admission of any kind that f-2 hybrid vigour is equal or even superior, at times, to f-1 hybrid vigour. That I still deny, on the ground(s) of fundamental botany 101. If a grower has absolutely zero interests in breeding, and only wants a designer hybrid of superior vigour in all areas, then let him stick to growing true f-1 seed and clones. That is just good practice. If he wants to take up hobby breeding, then let him grow the f-1 and make his own f-2 and f-3 seed. Why buy it from someone else, when you`re going to need a hundred, at the very least, for half-decent selection purposes. - RT

 

[BBFan]

Excellent info RT. Thanks.

 

[umbra]

You're partially right. I'm not up on most seed vendors, nor do I wish to pretend otherwise. But! I have been around for awhile and have looked at more than a few vendor websites, in my time; and I confess that as I began to write this, I remembered one vendor that does explicity identify some of his gear as f-2: The Hemp Depot. I'm referring to Joey Weed's seeds. Joey does in fact call it like it is: an f-2. Kudos to him for doint that. I respect him for that, as well as for rescuing the BG's A-11 and C-99. That is certainly a valiant and noble thing for him to do, to be sure.

However! It was clearly implied in what I wrote that f-2's of high quality strains no longer available as an f-1 seed or clone are out there, in the market ... and gladly so. It is a different story when the original f-1 is still available, and even easily accessible, from the original breeder. Knock-offs of those are not usually labelled as 'f-2', not that I readily remember anyway, but I remain open to correction if someone wants to produce the undeniable evidence. If anyone can recall instances of that, please post your recollections here. Qualification: We are talking only about f-2's of f-1 strains and varieties still currently available from the "original" breeder.



Did I deny that? If I did, then please accept my apology. It is completely possible to find a superior pheno of strains in their f-2 or f-3 generation, if a person grows out enough of the seed. Take potency for example. Let`s say that Parent A is 25% THC, on a good day; and Parent B is 17% THC, but the better yielder of the two. Breeding them together will produce f-1 offspring of around 21% THC, roughly speaking. Not as potent as Parent A. However, if you sift the f-2, you will find a Parent A dominant pheno, equal to Parent A in potency, but also able to yield better than Parent A, thanks to the genetic influence of Parent B. These kind of f-2`s are `quality`f-2`s, undeniably, and most welcome additions to anyone`s line-up.

But please do not read that as an admission of any kind that f-2 hybrid vigour is equal or even superior, at times, to f-1 hybrid vigour. That I still deny, on the ground(s) of fundamental botany 101. If a grower has absolutely zero interests in breeding, and only wants a designer hybrid of superior vigour in all areas, then let him stick to growing true f-1 seed and clones. That is just good practice. If he wants to take up hobby breeding, then let him grow the f-1 and make his own f-2 and f-3 seed. Why buy it from someone else, when you`re going to need a hundred, at the very least, for half-decent selection purposes. - RT

RT your knowledge of breeding is vast, however You are off the topic and this is not your thread. IMHO you have made the original question so difficult for TM to understand that he will never be able to just grow some decent cannabis. He will always be well is it a true F1. Should I buy these, or these. TM's question wasn't that hard...but you sure have made it that way.

 

[Raisin Jackson]

Wow that's alot of words to read.
Hey dude if you are just starting out you don't wanna spend alot on seeds, bagseeds real good, but if you wanna buy some, nirvana is an excellent choice. I have grown and smoked their strains, they are great, the white russian I had from them was devastating, some of the strongest **** I've smoked, I've smoked some amazing ****, trust that. You sure don't wanna learn the process with a expensive seeds anyway. I'm about to start some seeds from them right now, I also have some real expensive fancy feminized color coated beans going in too, but I have just as much or more faith in the nirvana beans. Unless you are breeding them, don't sweat the f1, f2 stuff.

 

[Funkfarmer]

Nirvana has some great seeds....

 

[Rolling Thunder]

Nirvana has some great seeds....

Yes, some of them look pretty good, I must admit. I especially find three of their sativas to have a strong appeal: The Eldorado, Full Moon, and Hawaii Maui Waui, to be specific. The last of the three is a stabilized cross between the Federation`s Hawaiian Sativa and HQS`s Original Maui Waui skunk.

In terms of their indicas, the Aurora, Chrystal, and Snow White varieties look interesting. If I were going to try one of them, I'd probably try the Chrystal or Snow White first, since they are described as better yielding varieties than the Aurora, which is their most potent indica, by the look of it.

In terms of their Haze, Master Kush, Super Skunk, Northern Light, White Widow and White Rhino strains, I`m inclined to get those from the original breeders instead. Nirvana claims their Haze has Jamaican genes in it, but the original Haze does not have any Jamaican in it, according to Sam the Skunkman and TFD, the Dam`s oldest seed company.

The strain descriptions for the White Widow and White Rhino indicate that Nirvana is not getting these seeds from the original breeder, or seed co., so they are making those themselves. Not only are they obvious knock-offs, but they`re using registered trademark names owned by Greenhouse Seeds.

Even shantibaba, the original breeder of those two cup-winning strains, changed their names to Black Widow and Medicine Man when he sold his share of the Greenhouse Seed Company to Arjan. I would never buy the Widow from anyone but shantibaba, to be honest, of Mr. Nice Seeds. - RT

Reason for Edit: Strain spelling correction.

 

[leafminer]

Sheessh, see what I mean, I never even heard of ruderalis.

Another Question (this is going to be my question thread I expect) All the Mexican Commercial grass that goes around and gets smoked, what is it? Sativa/Indica/Ruderalis?

It is mostly grass that was regarded as great in the 60's - 70's - such as Acapulco Gold - that has now been neglected and much of it has gone feral. It is extremely variable in quality to start with, and after it's been compressed, stored too long, etc., the result is pretty dire.

 

[Funkfarmer]

I got nirvanas white widow and she is BAD,now granted i have never grown anyone elses, but she is some good smoke and a producer.

 

[2Dog]

good to know smoky I bought that and ice from them.

 

[Rolling Thunder]

However! It was clearly implied in what I wrote that f-2's of high quality strains no longer available as an f-1 seed or clone are out there, in the market ... and gladly so. It is a different story when the original f-1 is still available, and even easily accessible, from the original breeder. Knock-offs of those are not usually labelled as 'f-2', not that I readily remember anyway, but I remain open to correction if someone wants to produce the undeniable evidence. If anyone can recall instances of that, please post your recollections here. Qualification: We are talking only about f-2's of f-1 strains and varieties still currently available from the "original" breeder.

Here's a vendor, incidentally, that I've never heard of before today, who lists F-2's, F-3's, and even an F-6 for sale:

hXXp://www.sanniesshop.com/sannies-seeds-c-167.html

The F-6 in question is supposedly a new and improved line of Jack Herer. I find it hard to believe, but am certainly curious to hear from those who have grown both the F-1 and F-6, side by side, if they think the F-6 version is superior to the F-1. If they keep working the Jack Herer, they may succeed as turning it into breeding stock. In terms of the other varieties listed as f-2 and f-3, I`m unfamiliar with those and so cannot tell if the F-1 seed/clones are still available to growers today. - RT

 

[Disco94]

Look into autoflowering strains. Pretty hard to screw up and are small and quick. Perfect for learning how to grow.