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Mr.Wakenbake don't sell greenhouse short they do have 3 cups under there belt.
 
Hick said:
....and I could agree.."IF" it weren't for the fact that we (NA) are becoming "better regulated", due to the legal dispensaries and medical vendors, especially on the west coast and canada.
In "THAT" sense, we are quickly becoming just as regulated as the 'dam.."if" you can call that regulation.. ;)..IMO..
Click to expand...

Great thread, almost went haywire, but back on track.

Both Mass and Fad make great points. Great points. And of course Hick comes in with his Great points also.

IF, I had to choose, I would HAVE to say that Fad is correct on buying seeds from the 'Dam being more accurate. Just for the simple fact that most of the shady breeders have already been "weeded" out, and we in NA are just strting to "weed" out poor genetics and thier breeders.
Now, along the lines of Mass, he is absolutly correct in the names he dropped for NA breeders being reputable. All of those folks are the real deal. Though , I do disagree with some of thier marleting tactics.


Fad, check out Elite genetics., there are the real deal. They also have a forum for questions about thire beans, along with current stock reports of what they have.
http://www.cannaworld.com/center/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=1196


OK.

So, what I see going on, and how things are developing here at least on the West Coast is, folks who start from seed are the minority. Most development has come from breeders crossing and then picking the best pheno of the bunch, and the cloning begins.
The clones are all let out thru dispensaries.
When the dispensaries first started, it was WORSE then a crap shoot when you bought clones. You could almost quarentee that it was not what was said to be. But that was over 10 years ago. Now, those folks/Clubs are out of business.
As Hick stated, we are "policing" our own now and folks are generally more educatd about strain. Now, certain clubs are known to have the real deal, and ther is WAY more money to be made on clones then finished, for sure. BUT, you have to know your stuff and be consistant.
Reputation is now at stake and competition. So noone wants to sell crap clones, because they will be out of business.


I am SUPER happy how the Bay Area has progressed. It has really been taking charge of breeding and attracting some big names. DJ Short has been around and working with some KEY folks in the scene here. I expect some new beans to be coming from him with some West Coast genetics.
Just his presence shows that we are progressing in the World scene.
 
NorCalHal said:
Great thread, almost went haywire, but back on track.

Both Mass and Fad make great points. Great points. And of course Hick comes in with his Great points also.

IF, I had to choose, I would HAVE to say that Fad is correct on buying seeds from the 'Dam being more accurate. Just for the simple fact that most of the shady breeders have already been "weeded" out, and we in NA are just strting to "weed" out poor genetics and thier breeders.
Now, along the lines of Mass, he is absolutly correct in the names he dropped for NA breeders being reputable. All of those folks are the real deal. Though , I do disagree with some of thier marleting tactics.


Fad, check out Elite genetics., there are the real deal. They also have a forum for questions about thire beans, along with current stock reports of what they have.
http://www.cannaworld.com/center/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=1196


OK.

So, what I see going on, and how things are developing here at least on the West Coast is, folks who start from seed are the minority. Most development has come from breeders crossing and then picking the best pheno of the bunch, and the cloning begins.
The clones are all let out thru dispensaries.
When the dispensaries first started, it was WORSE then a crap shoot when you bought clones. You could almost quarentee that it was not what was said to be. But that was over 10 years ago. Now, those folks/Clubs are out of business.
As Hick stated, we are "policing" our own now and folks are generally more educatd about strain. Now, certain clubs are known to have the real deal, and ther is WAY more money to be made on clones then finished, for sure. BUT, you have to know your stuff and be consistant.
Reputation is now at stake and competition. So noone wants to sell crap clones, because they will be out of business.


I am SUPER happy how the Bay Area has progressed. It has really been taking charge of breeding and attracting some big names. DJ Short has been around and working with some KEY folks in the scene here. I expect some new beans to be coming from him with some West Coast genetics.
Just his presence shows that we are progressing in the World scene.
Click to expand...

Yes, Cali and BC are currently doing wonders for the industry. Like I said, the weed in Hawaii was HANDS DOWN better than any Dutch stuff I have had. That said, you need to understand I currently live in a place where weed is equated with heroin. You don't talk about it openly, and you sure as hell dont tell anyone you grow.

I would advise everyone in my situation to order dutch seeds from verified breeders. How do I verify a seedbank? I can't. I can only go on internet knowledge. I am sure the west coast has some amazing ones. I will absolutely check them out. But like you said, its a crap shoot to me. I don't have anyone (other than on here) I can discuss this stuff with. The people I smoke with here, dont know the difference between indica and sativa.

Now, would someone argue with me that NA is better, and I should order NA strains, they already know more than I do, and don't need my advice.

I think I just totally repeated myself, but ah well, I am bored and you aren't obligated to read this :)
 
see to me it still seems like what you are saying is that the dutch are more trust worthy then NA's??? Other then this I can't understand exactly what you think will be different.

Norcal I think was referring to Clubs and dispensories, that is not really what I am talking about. I am saying there is no difference getting seeds from a North american Breeder as opposed to a dutch Breeder, if you are saying that buying from a NA, you wouldn't know what you got based on growing it, how is that going to change in regards to getting something from the dutch? Either way you are dependant on getting what you buy and pay for, which makes things a moral question, which is why I took offence to your original post. Wheather you get your seeds from a dependable seedbank in Amsterdam or North America/England, you have the same probabilities of getting what you pay for. All of the breeders, regardless of their geograph locations eventually end up competing for the same clientelle, within the same general pool, globally... You have to understand what era this is, transportation, communication and shipping is very easy to accomplish on a global scale, which opens basically all potential clients to the global market place.

You surely can not think that just because you order or buy seeds from the dam, that that seals the fate of you getting what you paid for... Wheater you go to the Dam or NA you still must buy seeds from reputable sources in as you said original breeder packs. Just because our breeders are located in NA doesn't mean that they do not come in original breeders packs.
 
massproducer said:
see to me it still seems like what you are saying is that the dutch are more trust worthy then NA's??? Other then this I can't understand exactly what you think will be different.

Norcal I think was referring to Clubs and dispensories, that is not really what I am talking about. I am saying there is no difference getting seeds from a North american Breeder as opposed to a dutch Breeder, if you are saying that buying from a NA, you wouldn't know what you got based on growing it, how is that going to change in regards to getting something from the dutch? Either way you are dependant on getting what you buy and pay for, which makes things a moral question, which is why I took offence to your original post. Wheather you get your seeds from a dependable seedbank in Amsterdam or North America/England, you have the same probabilities of getting what you pay for. All of the breeders, regardless of their geograph locations eventually end up competing for the same clientelle, within the same general pool, globally... You have to understand what era this is, transportation, communication and shipping is very easy to accomplish on a global scale, which opens basically all potential clients to the global market place.

You surely can not think that just because you order or buy seeds from the dam, that that seals the fate of you getting what you paid for... Wheater you go to the Dam or NA you still must buy seeds from reputable sources in as you said original breeder packs. Just because our breeders are located in NA doesn't mean that they do not come in original breeders packs.
Click to expand...

I am, at heart, a skeptic of pretty much everything. I have ZERO knowledge of the west coast scene. I don't live near the west coast. I have been there many times, and have smoked some PHENOMENAL WEED. 90% of the time, the guy can't tell me what strain it is. I have no personal experience or knowledge of west coast pot. Now, if you said "Get this strain from this breeder!" I would trust you, I would try it. It would most likely be incredible, provided you know what weed I like. I have never sat down and tested west coast strains. Its always been "What can you get?" "Oh, I can get you a quarter!" No talk about strain, or breeders or anything.

When I go to the dam, I can sit down, test several different kinds, and enjoy them openly. I can talk about them with people. The luxury that you have I certainly do not.

Now, when you advise me what to order, and who to order it from, I am only basing my choice on one person. Not to discredit you, but you are only a few posts on the internet to me. You may be 100% trustworthy in your advice, but I have been to the dam, I have smoked these strains, and this is what I look for. I am near certain your advice could turn me 100%, so I will give it a try, but a decent grow takes 4 months, and I don't have the time/resources to risk that on one guy on the internet.

Also, remember, you don't know what strains/genetics I favor. Hell, I don't even know. My dutch weed obsession is "Great White Shark." Or "Peacemaker" or any of the other names its known by. That is the best weed I have ever smoked. But, in Honolulu, I bought a gram off of a bartender, and THAT was HANDS DOWN the best weed I ever had. He couldn't tell me the strain, the breeder, or anything. That gram lasted me 3 days, I can smoke 3 grams of GWS in a single day.

Now, I wish I could sit down with you and smoke this hawaii stuff with you, and I am 100% certain you could tell me what it is, and where to get the good beans from, but I cant.

What I figured out, is I am NOT arguing with your knowledge, I am aruguing with the difference in situations we are both in.

I agree with NorCal that the market corrects itself, and the shams are left out of business, but with my current lack of knowledge, or any sort of validatable resources, I have to trust what I know. The dutch market is the most open market in the world, and I believe the most self-correcting, so that is what I trust. But PM me. Lets talk some stellar genetics. I'll tell you what I like, and you give me advice. I can't get that from anyone I know personally, and I would actually risk a 4 month grow on your advice.
 
See we keep intertwining commerical BUDS you bought with original breeders genetics. These are two totally different markets, and as such can not be really compared. I am not saying that you can not go to the dam and sit down and puff something that you like with a few people that can give you info, but the point that you are missing is that you would never know if what they are telling you in the coffee shop is correct or true either. There is no justification or fact in the premise that all dutch or more trustworthy.

You keep talking about west cost weed, but I am not saying anything at all about west coast weed, or buying buds...I do not buy buds, i buy seeds and grow my own buds.

As for just talking my advise, you shouldn't be taking anyones advise except your own on what you are trying to grow, you should be reviewing the strain descriptions until you find something that you like.

I would be even inclined to agree with you that going to a coffee shop in Amsterdam to buy BUDS you have a better chance at getting that strain then going to a dispensory in Cali and getting BUDS. But this has nothing to do with the breeders, it has to do with the way that the dispensory and coffee shops are ran, this is not what we are talking about, we are talking about getting the seeds from the same place as the coffee shop did, because 9 times out of 10, the coffee shop is not the breeder.
 
What is the Dutch seedbank that you get your seeds from?
 
massproducer said:
See we keep intertwining commerical BUDS you bought with original breeders genetics. These are two totally different markets, and as such can not be really compared. I am not saying that you can not go to the dam and sit down and puff something that you like with a few people that can give you info, but the point that you are missing is that you would never know if what they are telling you in the coffee shop is correct or true either. There is no justification or fact in the premise that all dutch or more trustworthy.

You keep talking about west cost weed, but I am not saying anything at all about west coast weed, or buying buds...I do not buy buds, i buy seeds and grow my own buds.

As for just talking my advise, you shouldn't be taking anyones advise except your own on what you are trying to grow, you should be reviewing the strain descriptions until you find something that you like.

I would be even inclined to agree with you that going to a coffee shop in Amsterdam to buy BUDS you have a better chance at getting that strain then going to a dispensory in Cali and getting BUDS. But this has nothing to do with the breeders, it has to do with the way that the dispensory and coffee shops are ran, this is not what we are talking about, we are talking about getting the seeds from the same place as the coffee shop did, because 9 times out of 10, the coffee shop is not the breeder.
Click to expand...

Of course not. The coffee shop is not the breeder, they are not the seed bank. There are MANY different links in the chain, but if you like a strain in Amsterdam, you can find it many other places, and if you know you like it, you know it. Its the same thing with wine, but I'll leave that analogy alone. There are many links in the chain, but if you smoke a strain at 4 coffee shops in Holland, and know that its the same stuff, you know you can trust it. So, that validates the breeder/grower/vendor. That is why I am a stickler for "Original Breeder Packaging"

You are now arguing my point. There is NO centralized body regulating this. All we have is speculation, information, and free-market governing this. No centralized body in Holland regulates strain info. I've smoked enough there to know what I like, and know where to get it.

Is it the best? Of course not, but I have quite a bit more personal knowledge in that region. I know enough about a strain because I have smoked it at several coffee shops, and yes, there are some dodgy ones out there. The knowledge I have is NOT concrete, but still verified in my mind.

Im sorry, I have to go back to wine with this one. If wine were illegal all over the world, were it illegal to grow grapes in this world, very few people would know the difference between cabranet and merlot. Underground wine bars would sell both, but how would you really know? Breeders would sell seeds, but how would you really know? How many underground wine dealers would actually make the distinction, or care to? Say you make wine legal in one country, how quick would the market ween out the decieptive ones?

We agree, 100% believe it or not, we are just not on the same page. Its going to take quite a few long winded posts from both of us to finally reach a common ground.

Dutch genetics are not more trustworthy in my opinion, but I have experience in sampling them. I grow them, and I know if I am growing what I had there. I trust that a lot more than someone telling me "grow this from that place and it'll be better." Its not to say that you are wrong, but I have experience there.

It's not the knowledge we are arguing at this point, its the situations...
 
The fact is that if you are saying that you judge the strains you are going to grow by smoking buds of the same strain, and get consistant results from this, i really do not know how to respond to that.

Lets look at genetic expression, the fact is that the chances of you getting the same pheno as the one you smoked is so slight, that it is almost non-existant. Unless you are going to amsterdam and buying clones then you are going to have a bunch of different phenos of which none will display the exact same traits. This is why taking a bagseed and growing it perfectly will more then likely never give you the same smoke as the bag it came from.

This is why seedbanks have descriptions, that is how people judge what they are going to grow, not by smoking all of the strains they wish to grow, and asking others opinions.

"but if you smoke a strain at 4 coffee shops in Holland, and know that its the same stuff, you know you can trust it. So, that validates the breeder/grower/vendor." fadeux

You said that if you go to the Dam and smoke something that you know it is that, then you can trust them, but think about that for a second. How exactly did you know that it was what they said it was in the first place, how can you know in amsterdam and not know somewhere else?

Trust me we are not saying anything close to the same thing, i am saying that as far as breeders go, both locations are just as regulated as they are regulated by the same clients.
 
massproducer said:
What is the Dutch seedbank that you get your seeds from?
Click to expand...

I don't. I get them from a british seedbank and I am a stickler on original breeder packaging.

Just be honest with me friend. What is the point you are trying to make, and we can continue this debate as long as you want. Debates aren't evil, they aren't drama. It's you and me trying to learn something from each other.

The question is "How do you know your genetics are authentic, and where do you get them from, and why?"

The distinguished gentleman named MASS has the floor.

Thats the fundamental question of this debate. I can't answer that question 100%, and I am guessing you can't either. If you can, that opens up a great window for people on here. That's all we are really discussing. We've gotten way to generalized and that is why this thread is going downhill. I respect you, and your knowledge, but we are getting down to fundamentals here, and thats what I love. Are you pissed at me? Im not angry at you? Its not about being right or wrong, its about "having the conversations."
 
Fadeux said:
You are now arguing my point. There is NO centralized body regulating this. All we have is speculation, information, and free-market governing this. No centralized body in Holland regulates strain info. I've smoked enough there to know what I like, and know where to get it.
Click to expand...

Now before you aqused me of having expressed knowledge of strain or that I have information that the average person doesn't have, but i stated that I rely on reliable breeders strain descriptions and the descriptions of others that have grown that perticular breeders version of a perticular strain, via online forums and whatnot.

But you are saying that you just know where to go and where to get it. If you are promoting the Dam, then who are you promoting in the dam, because I am not trying to flame ya, but you have to this point provided no information at all, you just keep referring to wine, which I am not sure what wine has to do with anything.
 
massproducer said:
The fact is that if you are saying that you judge the strains you are going to grow by smoking buds of the same strain, and get consistant results from this, i really do not know how to respond to that.

Lets look at genetic expression, the fact is that the chances of you getting the same pheno as the one you smoked is so slight, that it is almost non-existant. Unless you are going to amsterdam and buying clones then you are going to have a bunch of different phenos of which none will display the exact same traits. This is why taking a bagseed and growing it perfectly will more then likely never give you the same smoke as the bag it came from.

This is why seedbanks have descriptions, that is how people judge what they are going to grow, not by smoking all of the strains they wish to grow, and asking others opinions.

"but if you smoke a strain at 4 coffee shops in Holland, and know that its the same stuff, you know you can trust it. So, that validates the breeder/grower/vendor." fadeux

You said that if you go to the Dam and smoke something that you know it is that, then you can trust them, but think about that for a second. How exactly did you know that it was what they said it was in the first place, how can you know in amsterdam and not know somewhere else?

Trust me we are not saying anything close to the same thing, i am saying that as far as breeders go, both locations are just as regulated as they are regulated by the same clients.
Click to expand...

Granted, but I live in a "redneck" state. There are ZERO regulations here. No market, no nothing. Weed is weed and no one cares about anything other than, "does it eff you up?"

Seriously though, I like you, quite a bit, and you are obviously smart. I would like you to PM me a strain that I could import from canada, and grow here in the american midwest. I dont care about the strain, breeder, or any of that. Just tell me what to get and where to get it. You obviously have some good stuff under your belt. Also, I would love to grow that, and smoke it with you sometime. Thatll never happen though, but really, I bet it would be interesting. It's easy to cut people down when it's just a string of letters and numbers to someone. Theres no respect on this internet thing. I say we just agree to disagree on that one.

Mass, I get my seeds the only way I know how. Illegally, and when that is the case, you can flip a coin to figure out if you are getting in leglitimatlly, or just getting shammed... I have my methods, you have yours. Are you a better grower than me? I would bet so, every time, and most likley make money. You obviously can't understand my situation, so no worries. I don't need your approval. Take care, and have a great night. You apparently do quite a bit for the realm of pot on this continent, so there is no reason to argue. Thank you for your knowledge, and your spreading of this knowledge. You are a great person, and I wish you the best of luck in all your future endevoures...
 
Ok bro, I think i am just going to leave this alone now, because this is starting to kind of go in circles.

I do not understand even what are the issues anymore being that you just stated that you get your seeds from a british seedbank. This entire conversation just went all over the place. You came into this forum saying that you should only buy seeds FROM the dutch, but you do not even buy seeds from the dutch, so what was all of this about going to amsterdam, frequently all about. This last post is the VERY first time that you said anything about England or anything outside of amsterdam, if you would have said you got seeds from england but prefer dutch strains then I would have never said a word to you.. BUT you came in here recommending everyone to only buy dutch seeds.
 
Why not just check out seedboutique.com and find something you like and then PM me or post a question in the strains section, regarding the strain.

Check it out...

Like i said bro I have no problems with you personally at all, you seem very cool, i just think that we have to understand when an opinion came be precieved as a factual presentation... That means I have to remember that as well

But check out seedboutique.com, they have a nice amount of original brreder packs of seeds from a variety of dutch and NA breeders, and they are located in England, you may wanna check out doc chronic as well... http://www.drchronic.com/
 
massproducer said:
Why not just check out seedboutique.com and find something you like and then PM me or post a question in the strains section, regarding the strain.

Check it out...

Like i said bro I have no problems with you personally at all, you seem very cool, i just think that we have to understand when an opinion came be precieved as a factual presentation... That means I have to remember that as well

But check out seedboutique.com, they have a nice amount of original brreder packs of seeds from a variety of dutch and NA breeders, and they are located in England, you may wanna check out doc chronic as well... http://www.drchronic.com/
Click to expand...

Fair enough. I've heard great things about the doc, I've also hear bad stories.

What we are actually discussing, is where to buy your seeds, and how to know you are getting the "real deal" when you buy them. We obviously agree there are a lot of crap banks out there selling bunk seeds. What we dont agree on is where the seeds themselves come from. If I go to several coffee shops and smoke GWS, I should know what it really is. If I grow it, and smoke it, I should know if I got what I paid for.

If I order from a GB seedbank, and get *****, I will know on my first grow. But that is the trust I am willing to place into it. It comes from my own personal knowledge, and my internet reccomendations. I've come back from holland to the us many times, and they always had a dog to "smell us" at the terminal. before customs, before international security, before any of that.

We really aren't talking about anything but "Seedbank Theory" and obviously, there is no answer to that one. You obviously have more knowledge than I do, but because of my situation, I cannot see past the true providers I respect. If you could provide me with one (which you probably have) I would actually listen to it, provided it were a strain I was actually interested in.

We HONESTLY have no difference in our skeptism. But, we do still have a lot to learn from each other, I would argue I have more to learn than you do, but don't dismiss me because you don't understand my perspective.

You can name a strain, a breeder, a dealer, to buy this stuff from. Congrats. I can't do that. I grow in an extremely private community. The only reason I have to pay 100 bucks for your 10 beans is your own personal validation. So do that, and in 6 months, I will be thanking you for that. Or not, and in 6 months I won't care. I don't care. Ill take a chance.

You obviously know more about weed than I do. All I can do is learn from you. You can prove me wrong all you want, but what good does it do you? I just want GOOD WEED. Thats it. I don't care about a pissing match.

Much respect to you MASS.

Like I have said before on this site, I am NO expert, but I am GREAT at questioning the experts...

Its not about being right or wrong, its about achieving the common goal. If you can help me with that, you are fantastic, if you just want to prove yourself right against an "underling" you go right ahead.
 
You just said that you bought seeds in GB, i honestly do not understand what you are talking about anymore, like I said this is just going in circles, I really think that you should go back and read everything that you have wrote and how it keeps changing, with almost every post, just jumping all over the place. And as I have said if you think that smoking a strain and then trying to grow the same strain from seed are going to come out the same then honestly, once again I do not understand how how only you can defeat science and the laws or averages and genetics.

Man no disrespect at all but i am pretty sure that you have never grown any cannabis before based on your preceptions and information of the subject.

And if you have grown, then please for like the 7th time, where do you get your seeds from, i am not looking for a general answer, but a specific one.
 
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
 
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