Topping question

[Pot Belly]

:aok: Stoney that was awsome! I always knew why I do those things but I never took the time to break it down like that. HEY that give me an idea..... someone in MP should write a growing book based on all the info in MP. It would be like a chronicals or something? :beatnik:

Yes, Yes, that is also my idea. More thoughts to come, but I have to go for now.:bolt:

PB

 

[jefri]

Topping plants is very stressful and should never be done (unless you want clones), Instead, try to bend them over when they are about 20cm tall and not too woody. This will give the same effect as topping at a young age without all the stress. If you are doing a good job you should end up with a dense shrub. Continue to bend over the tips every two weeks or so (depending on the rate of growth) and you can end up with a massive, not very tall plant. It is important that you do not top or bend them later than 2 weeks before to heading . You can bend them over so that they are almost flat when they are young and bendy, this give the best results.

In parts of Australia, you dont get into too much strife with the authorities if you only have a couple of plants, thus growers tend to have very few plants and grow them for a long time (up to two months) before blooming. These plants end up covering a huge area without being tall and if done properly give phenomenal yields.

2 Layers of plastic netting are placed across the grow area the firss about 1 foot above the pots, the next about 2.5 - 3 ft above the pots. The first layer is used to keep the branches down, the second laye is used to hold up the giant heads when the try to fall over.

Good Luck, topping is bad.

 

[Stoney Bud]

try to bend them over when they are about 20cm tall and not too woody. These plants end up covering a huge area without being tall and if done properly give phenomenal yields.

What you're describing is "LST". I described that method in my earlier post. LST can be an effective method, and topping can be an effective method.

If done properly, neither causes a bit of harm to the plant. Any method applied too harshly will cause harm. Topping should ALWAYS be used if it meets the end result you wish to have. It should be done in stages, not like you're trimming a hedge.

I'm not sure who told you topping was "bad" for a plant. After 40 years of growing, I can assure you that it isn't. It works just fine.

Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If your opinion is that it some way harms the plant, then that's good for your grow.

 

[hazewarrior]

I had this really good outdoor sativa that I topped at about 1' and the thing took off! It started to grow above our 8' wall. Someone told me to try and bend them down. At the time I knew nothing about LST, so what did I do?? I grabbed one of the tops and started bending it.... Yep..... SNAP!!! :doh: The stock split in half. Luckily I was able to wrap the stock and it did just fine.

Lessons learned I guess? :confused2:

 

[jjsunderground]

Ahhhhh, this is a trick question!

It has two different answers.

Mutt is totally correct in what he says, as long as it pertains to a plant grown from seed.

If your plant is grown from a cutting, then as a clone of the host plant, it will have the same growth characteristics as the host plant had.

If you take a cutting from a plant that has not reached it's sexual maturity, and has not developed alternating nodes, then the clone will be at that same stage of growth. It will develop the same number of nodes as the host plant until alternating nodes appear on both. The rooting time will delay the cuttings development until new growth appears.

However, if you use a cutting from a sexually mature plant, the cloned plant will also be sexually mature as soon as it's developed roots. It's first set of nodes will alternate.

This plant, you can top as soon as it's rooted and has new growth to top.

well said man

 

[ktownlegend]

yea no to be all snappy with an attitude or nething but we've all established lots of different ways to increase yields, control grows, heights, shapes,

Original Posted by : Stoney BudWhat you're describing is "LST". I described that method in my earlier post. LST can be an effective method, and topping can be an effective method.

If done properly, neither causes a bit of harm to the plant. Any method applied too harshly will cause harm. Topping should ALWAYS be used if it meets the end result you wish to have. It should be done in stages, not like you're trimming a hedge.

I'm not sure who told you topping was "bad" for a plant. After 40 years of growing, I can assure you that it isn't. It works just fine.

Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If your opinion is that it some way harms the plant, then that's good for your grow

 

[FizGig]

I have an idea to share with you all, that I've found to be WAY less involved than tieing down MJ branches for LST. (TBH, I'm still in my 1st yr. of indoor-growing and still don't know how you tie them down! - Lots of experimenting going on here.)...Anyways, so this is what I decided to do instead: I just use a bent paperclip (or wire, X-mas ornament hooks are great, too) and add washers for weight on one end of the "hook". Place the top-end of the hook according to where you want the stress on the branch. - They are easy to move as the plant grows and you need to redistibute the angle/weight, and same goes for removing/adding weight with extra washers (or ones of varying weights). HTH.

 

[md.apothecary]

Ahhhahaha I almost pooped my pants. :holysheep:

"Topping is stressful and should never be done"!??!

Whomever believes that must strictly grow from seed only and/or know nothing about propagation of MJ plants and cloning. Topping is no different than making clones.

BTW, the paper clip idea is widely used, however it is not a LS (low stress) way of training your plants. It can actually cause damage to the plant in the long run. Plants resisting against the weight can be cut by the item holding the weights.

But... to each their own I guess.

 

[smokencron]

My Husband has read hundreds of posts like this and I just wanted to point out that this was not only infromative, but very well written. Thank you for not only the growing tips but all the other advise about the pros and cons of each different method you suggest.

Hello Nova,

Topping and Pinching accomplish the same thing, two different ways.

LST is something that uses the same plant hormone, but for a different reason, (sort of).

MJ has a hormone that it sends the most of to the tallest branch tip on the plant. It also sends a lesser amount of this hormone to the tallest part of each branch on the plant.

This hormone makes the tallest branch the "Primary" branch on the plant. It's where the largest bud on the plant will grow and is also the fastest growing branch on the plant.

The plant can be "fooled" into sending the most of this hormone to a different branch by simply MAKING another branch the tallest. This is what LST does.

With LST, you gently bend the primary, (tallest), branch over, or any other branch, and secure it so that it is now NOT the tallest branch. You have to do this in several days, using very small gentle moves until you arrive at it's new elevation. Then, you use a twist tie or string to secure it in it's bend.

Whatever branch is now the tallest branch will have the most "tallest growth" hormone sent to it by the plant.

LST also accomplishes something else.

The branch that you bend over can be tied so that the top of the branch is lower than the rest of the same branch. This will cause the side stems on that branch to start growing directly up in competition to be the tallest on that particular branch.

Many growers use this method to help fill a grow room to it's fullest capacity. If left alone, MJ is a plant that with some strains can reach 20+ feet in height. If you put another plant, just like it, next to it, and use LST on it, then that plant will be shorter, but bushier. The end harvest will be identical in weight. The plant without LST will have fewer, larger buds that add up to the same weight as the LST'd plant with it's multitude of smaller buds.

However, inside a grow room, height is usually a concern.

My grow room allows only 5 feet of plant growth space after all the other considerations are subtracted. The space between the ceiling and the light, the height of the light itself and the space between the light and the plants. Also the height of the growing chambers or pots.

I have to either top each plant to make it stay within this height limit, or I can use LST to spread the plant out in the direction I wish it to grow.

This will enable me to fill every space in my grow room with buds. The plant won't have enough height space to reach it's potential of maximum bud growth. I use LST to move it lower and fill the room. This will cause a dramatic increase in harvested bud because the plant has more tips and the plant fills all the previously empty places in the grow room. I have taken each branch and turned it into many by allowing the side branches to grow with accelerated growth due to the additional growth hormone that the plant gives them due to my bending over the tallest part of the branch so that it's now NOT the tallest part of that particular branch.

Topping is a different method to get to the same point.

When you top a plant by either cutting or pinching off a tip, or you can only crush the tips stem, then the plant will grow TWO stems from each point that you've caused harm to. This minor harm is sent a "healing" hormone by the plant and will grow very slowly until it's healed. If cut, it will be covered by a "scab" made by the plant. If crushed, it will slowly heal and the plant will make a "knee", or thicker point exactly where you crushed it. Both crushing and cutting will make the TWO stems grow from the same place where this injury has happened.

If you start topping a plant when it's just out of it's seedling stage, you can also fill a grow room much better than leaving it with it's natural growth.

By combining LST and topping, an inside grower can maximize the amount of bud per/sq ft of the grow room.

Another method of arriving at this end result is by growing single branch plants. This is much faster because the plant hardly slows down.

As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola.

The problem with this type of grow is that most police use the NUMBER of plants against you. Maximizing your grow area this way will cause the penalty to be more severe if you're busted.

There are additional hormones that can be used when using a single branch grow that will slow plant height and increase bud size. This will allow more massive bud growth on those single buds that require them to be supported to prevent bending over and breaking.

If you live in an area that plant count is a consideration, I would suggest that you use ONE plant and maximize the LST and topping to fill your grow space.

I've filled a 5 foot by 5 foot room with one plant and harvested a little more than a cured pound from it. If I had 20 plants in the same space, I would have harvested the same amount of weed, just faster.

Each time you top a plant, it slows it's growth until the cut part is healed and THEN it sends the growth hormone to the new TWO stems that grow from the cut spot.

Keep in mind that LST, topping and crushing or pinching can only be done in the VEGETATIVE cycle of the plant. Once it's flowering, you shouldn't do any of them because it will detract from flower growth.

I tried to cover as much as possible, but I have no doubt that I missed telling you something. Post anything that isn't clear to you, and either me or someone else will fill in the gaps.

Good luck to you!!!

 

[lyfr]

: I just use a bent paperclip and add washers for weight on one end of the "hook". Place the top-end of the hook according to where you want the stress on the branch. HTH.

i love it...i use fishing weights and garbage ties the same way. seems too work great for me.

 

[thc is good for me]

Topping plants is very stressful and should never be done (unless you want clones), Instead, try to bend them over when they are about 20cm tall and not too woody. This will give the same effect as topping at a young age without all the stress.

Good Luck, topping is bad.

Do not listen to him he knows not what he speaks

 

[trillions of atoms]

well i dont top, it slows growth ALOT and decreases GPW. if time isnt in the factor its fine but to someone on a schedule it nedds not be done. i dont think you can say it should never br done but indoors it isnt needed unless a novice has simply run out of room completely. if you need to train to tame your plants it is sugguested to use methods like LST. SC. SCROG and even low-no veg, short flowering clones or seeds for yeild using SOG. some ppl combine methods.

i dont usually cut on my babies at all unless im cloning or lolipopping older plants.

i agree and disagree, but its really preferance for everything anyway, as its all a matter of opinion in the end.

 

[zipflip]

or .... grow 12/12 from seed

grow 12/12 from seed...???? u mean start and keep lights on a 12/12 schedule from the time they germed til time of harvest givin u a massive primaryt cola thus also givin u more space for more plants....?

 

[cdmharley]

Stoney... lovely thread there mate.. im into day 11 of my chesse cuttings now.. on a wilma dripper.. 10 pot system. canna terra pro soil, hydro-clay in the bottom of pots.. 1st week no nutes just PH was 5.7 let it go to 6.3 after reading a bit more.. day 7 changed the res added Voodoo. Sensi AB grow to ec 0.8... but lowered ec now just in case of over fert..
i started the LST but two babies snapped!!! so ill use the strings to tie when i next check on them.. the 1st one snapped but its fine, the side branches are reaching towards the lights (2x 600 watt HPS growlux by the way, new bulbs)
they are doing really well nice and green there was a bit of heat stress but it seems better.. the 1 that snapped off completely will it be ok??? it will be like its topped???
many thanks.
CDMH. ill get pics asap!!! thanks.

 

[stevetosh]

Hello Nova,

Topping and Pinching accomplish the same thing, two different ways.

LST is something that uses the same plant hormone, but for a different reason, (sort of).

MJ has a hormone that it sends the most of to the tallest branch tip on the plant. It also sends a lesser amount of this hormone to the tallest part of each branch on the plant.

This hormone makes the tallest branch the "Primary" branch on the plant. It's where the largest bud on the plant will grow and is also the fastest growing branch on the plant.

The plant can be "fooled" into sending the most of this hormone to a different branch by simply MAKING another branch the tallest. This is what LST does.

With LST, you gently bend the primary, (tallest), branch over, or any other branch, and secure it so that it is now NOT the tallest branch. You have to do this in several days, using very small gentle moves until you arrive at it's new elevation. Then, you use a twist tie or string to secure it in it's bend.

Whatever branch is now the tallest branch will have the most "tallest growth" hormone sent to it by the plant.

LST also accomplishes something else.

The branch that you bend over can be tied so that the top of the branch is lower than the rest of the same branch. This will cause the side stems on that branch to start growing directly up in competition to be the tallest on that particular branch.

Many growers use this method to help fill a grow room to it's fullest capacity. If left alone, MJ is a plant that with some strains can reach 20+ feet in height. If you put another plant, just like it, next to it, and use LST on it, then that plant will be shorter, but bushier. The end harvest will be identical in weight. The plant without LST will have fewer, larger buds that add up to the same weight as the LST'd plant with it's multitude of smaller buds.

However, inside a grow room, height is usually a concern.

My grow room allows only 5 feet of plant growth space after all the other considerations are subtracted. The space between the ceiling and the light, the height of the light itself and the space between the light and the plants. Also the height of the growing chambers or pots.

I have to either top each plant to make it stay within this height limit, or I can use LST to spread the plant out in the direction I wish it to grow.

This will enable me to fill every space in my grow room with buds. The plant won't have enough height space to reach it's potential of maximum bud growth. I use LST to move it lower and fill the room. This will cause a dramatic increase in harvested bud because the plant has more tips and the plant fills all the previously empty places in the grow room. I have taken each branch and turned it into many by allowing the side branches to grow with accelerated growth due to the additional growth hormone that the plant gives them due to my bending over the tallest part of the branch so that it's now NOT the tallest part of that particular branch.

Topping is a different method to get to the same point.

When you top a plant by either cutting or pinching off a tip, or you can only crush the tips stem, then the plant will grow TWO stems from each point that you've caused harm to. This minor harm is sent a "healing" hormone by the plant and will grow very slowly until it's healed. If cut, it will be covered by a "scab" made by the plant. If crushed, it will slowly heal and the plant will make a "knee", or thicker point exactly where you crushed it. Both crushing and cutting will make the TWO stems grow from the same place where this injury has happened.

If you start topping a plant when it's just out of it's seedling stage, you can also fill a grow room much better than leaving it with it's natural growth.

By combining LST and topping, an inside grower can maximize the amount of bud per/sq ft of the grow room.

Another method of arriving at this end result is by growing single branch plants. This is much faster because the plant hardly slows down.

As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola.

The problem with this type of grow is that most police use the NUMBER of plants against you. Maximizing your grow area this way will cause the penalty to be more severe if you're busted.

There are additional hormones that can be used when using a single branch grow that will slow plant height and increase bud size. This will allow more massive bud growth on those single buds that require them to be supported to prevent bending over and breaking.

If you live in an area that plant count is a consideration, I would suggest that you use ONE plant and maximize the LST and topping to fill your grow space.

I've filled a 5 foot by 5 foot room with one plant and harvested a little more than a cured pound from it. If I had 20 plants in the same space, I would have harvested the same amount of weed, just faster.

Each time you top a plant, it slows it's growth until the cut part is healed and THEN it sends the growth hormone to the new TWO stems that grow from the cut spot.

Keep in mind that LST, topping and crushing or pinching can only be done in the VEGETATIVE cycle of the plant. Once it's flowering, you shouldn't do any of them because it will detract from flower growth.

I tried to cover as much as possible, but I have no doubt that I missed telling you something. Post anything that isn't clear to you, and either me or someone else will fill in the gaps.

Good luck to you!!!

Will do!

 

[cutthoatish420]

does anyone have a step by step link wit pictures on how to top your plant????????????????? thanx

 

[robbiegy2k]

hi,

Great thread, love how the growing community like to debate such things as topping 'n other techniques as it shows we're all striving for perfection. As many have said everyone has their own ways and even the best methods may not work as well from strain to strain.

Im interested in this single branch method as im doing a grow where plant numbers isn't a problem (have a friend who supplying as many clones as I need) so im thinking I might as well just cram in as many 2 gal pots as I can (already dontated) and as im using x amount of 600w bulbs (I have enough and think I hit 5k+ lumens per sq ft) look to grow them maybe 2-3ft max perhaps using this single branch method. I've always topped and always been pretty happy with results but they do tend to bush out a bit. Im wondering how much might be lost by doing single cola's? I did try a few singles in the past and while the cola was a fair bit bigger, I'd say yield wise topping gave me slightly more per plant so thats why i'd planned to top on this grow.

As thinking has it though, I guess if I can fit more single cola plants in there and they don't have to jostle for space, maybe I can get the same yield as using less (topped) plants.

hmm thoughts anyone? I guess if certain factors are right (light/co2/genetics) then whichever way it's done you get roughly the same yield. Annoying thing is height isn't a problem at all (15ft+) but as im using 600w's (worried about heat from 1000w'ers) I don't want to grow them too high - I grew 4 plants some time ago with a 400w hps they finished at about 3 to 3.5 foot tall and other than the top cola's all the lower bud sites were pityful - very loose/small buds (granted they were gypsy nirvana 'cheaper' seeds ) but my logic was that most of the energy went in to growing all the stems! so im a bit reluctant to grow them so tall.

Sorry for going slightly oT - guess im just looking for more opinons on single or topped plants when growroom size & plant numbers isn't an issue.

p.s. im not looking to do a scrog or anything as I won't be able to visit the room as much as I'd like so trying to keep it simple.

Appreciate any suggestions.

 

[surreptitious]

Stoney Bud, thank you for an outstanding read. I have a few questions for ya. I'm a first time grower and I've got around 18 seedlings from seeds going right now in a hydroponics system. My grow room is 150 cubic feet and drip tray is 4' x 4'. I would like to get around 12 females plants out of this (wishful thinking lol), but obviously cannot grow 6' tall plants. I was wondering if you suggest I try LST (being a newbie and all)? I would like to fill up my space and based on your post I'm interested. It seems like an easiest enough concept.

thanks again
surreptitious

 

[fictitiousgrowr]

Saw this thread and figured I'd add my two cents. I'm fortunate to have two rooms, the space and time to experiment so i often do. So anyway I had this mersh plant i didn't care for too much since i had also good seeds so i figured what the hell i'll mess with this one and see what happens. So I topped at node 5 or 6, then it split about four or five ways. I didn't have the space to flower it yet so then I LSTed it tying down all five branches thinking **** this thing is gonna be too big to flower if it streches too much. A couple weeks later I topped all five of those main branches. A couple weeks later I had maybe 15 or so tops that were pretty big in size. Finally I had room to put it in flower and this thing got huge! I've had plants as small as 7 grams finishing weight all the way up to one oz and looking to find ways to maximize and this seems to work well. I havn't cut it down yet but it looks like it is going to be a nice yield anyway. The down side is it did take a solid 2 months of vegging. I also plan on only cutting the top 2/3 off and revegging it which I have successfully done and always has a higher yield then the first time around. Can't wait to see what this one does the secong time around. Here you see the topped lst toped in the middle and some other younger ones for size comparison. Worth the time and effort, for a few extra weeks i bet this thing is more than double any of the others. BTW this one has been in flower for about 6 weeks and looks like it could go another 4.

 

[legalize_freedom]

It looks overfertilized...you may want to flush it. This is an excellent thread, I wish Stoney would come back around!!! He was a wealth of knowledge!