Hi there, to all you friendly stoners! Thanks for your kind feedback.
Mutt said:
Hype/lies does none of us any good.
Mutt, I'm totally with you on that one. In this particular case, honesty is always the best policy. On the question of genetic stability, though, I'm inclined to think we could all use a little more clarity about that. I'm personally inclined to think only of IBL's as "stable;" but that does not necessarily mean, in all cases, a strain without any variation(s) of any kind. There are cases of IBL's that cannot attain perfect stability, or uniformity, on account of the inferior breeding of its foundation building blocks.
The famed Northern Lights #5 is a perfect example of that. While considered by everyone, and I mean breeders "in the know," as an IBL, and deservedly so, it is not entirely stable or perfectly uniform. This can only be attributed, in the final analysis, to impurity or instability somewhere in its foundational building-blocks. There are a number of well-established, if not famous "strains" (or seedlines) with this same problem.
I remember reading, some years ago now, an interesting comment made by Ed Rosenthal, in reply to a question that he had been frequently asked; and it is probably a question that we have all considered at least a few times in our life, which is this: If we knew in advance that we were going to be stranded somewhere, like on a deserted island for example, and could bring only one strain or seedline with us, which would it be?
Ed's top choice was "Jack Herer," of all things, but it was his reasoning that struck a chord with me, and opened up a new way for me of looking at things. He said that it was his first choice because it contained a good diversity of the most desirable or "top-shelf" genetics, and just enough instability that would allow those genes to be opened up, with a little know how and skillful breeding, and developed into several different genetic lines.
So this answers to your observations, Mutt, about the different agendas in the community and how some people actually prefer an f-1 seedline with some variation in it, like Jack Herer, over an IBL. However, I'm inclined to believe Ed would encourage inbreeding and stabilizing genetic lines before outcrossing them. There is a time and season for all things: a time to inbreed and a time to outcross. A good breeder will study this.
Mutt said:
when handning off beans if it isn't stable then say its an F2 gen, and /or untested, or F3 gen. believe it or not some peeps like the fact that its a subsequent gen ... looking for phenos. ... Some want the F1 cross, some want the IBL some want to outcross, some want to inbreed, we all have different agendas ...
Yes, there are different agendas and we must certainly learn to both appreciate and respect that. In terms of potency and yield, though, I would imagine that every med user would like to maximize those; or get "the biggest bang for their buck." In that case, they ought to stick to true 'f-1' seed, as the 'f-1' possesses maximum hybrid vigour, which translates into maximum potency and yields, not to mention superior taste.
A certain measurable percentage of hybrid vigour is lost with each inbred generation. That means a loss of yield, potency, and enhanced taste. It is not readily apparent, to me at least, that outcrossing two very unstable plants, will create any more hybrid vigour than they each already possess on their own.
What you'll likely get, though, is at least one phenotype in the f-1 generation that looks like a 50-50 mix of both parents. There might be a dozen or more different pheno's produced in their 'f-1' progeny, but at least one pheno might come close to looking like a 50-50 mix of both parent lines. If all one is looking for is a rare, one-of-a-kind clone mother, who can never reproduce herself from seed, then I suppose there is some small justification for doing that effort. Otherwise, it's just an all-around bad idea.
Seeing, though, the diversity of agendas, as you point out, it would certainly be of great use and practicality for all seed-producers to honestly and accurately label their product, for what it is. That they do not is evidence of something: perhaps dishonesty, or ineptitude and a lack of knowledge, or even perhaps a bit of both. I guess the point I'm making is that there are a growing number of "rip-off " pollen-chuckers and seed-sellers, who are making 'f-2's and 'f-3's of strains and varieties they did not create, and then passing them off as 'f-1's; sometimes even at a highly inflated price. They are "fakes!" "The proof is in the seed."
Not just newbie's, but we all need to awaken to this reality and where it'll lead us all, in the end. We need to "think," and think hard, 'cause, like Red-Green says, when we don't, "government happens." I personally believe in trying to do things the right way and the right thing to do, when we want the 'f-1' seed of a well-established and proven genetic line, is to acquire it directly from the breeder himself, if at all possible or from that breeder's "approved" vendors.
Let us learn to distinguish good seed vendors from bad; spread the word, and boycott the bad guys/gals. Let's get real: the seed-scammers are out there, seeking to rip-us-all-off, both growers and breeder(s) alike; and they're here to stay and proliferate, unless we all join together to minimize the damage they do, if not put them out-of-business altogether !
Mutt said:
Me I'll take the X x (X x X) ... others more med orientated need the F1 to start work on....just keep it accurate.
Yes, A x 'BxC' works for me as well, but only conditionally; that is to say, if A,B, and C are all IBL's; or even if they're f-1's with no more than 2 pheno's each. If the 'B' seedline has two pheno's and the 'C' seedline has two phenos, crossing them will produce an 'f-1' generation with four phenos. Now if the 'A' seedline has two pheno's, and you cross it with the 'BxC' f-1 hybrid that has four visible f-1 pheno's, then your Ax'BxC' f-1 hybrid will yield eight different phenotypes. Now: if the 'A' hybrid has 3 pheno's, and the 'B' hybrid has 3 pheno's, and the 'C' hybrid has 3 pheno's, how many pheno's will the Ax'BxC' f-1 hybrid generation produce?
Whether or not such a risky or questionable cross will successfully merge the best of both hybrids is anyone's guess. I, for one, would'nt want to wager a heavy bet on it. Unfortunately, I get the feeling that far too many hybrids are a fair expression of the above undesirable scenario. When you get growers, however, who buy only 10 seeds at a time, and then who will only pop 1 to 3 of those at most, at a time, it is very easy for these gene-hackers to get away with this kind of "crap-shoot" game.
Note to the newbies: If you buy 10 seeds, put down all 10 at once; not one at a time, or two at a time. If you buy 30 seeds, pop them all at once, and learn the art of heavy selection, during the entire growing process, from start to finish. Having said that, I suppose there is some good argument to made for poping only 2or3 at a time if your seeds are rare and irreplaceable; until you know you're doing things right and can maximise all the growth factors, from germination to harvest.
Mutt said:
but on a side note...just becuase they say they are a breeder and have a shop doesn't mean they are ... (after seeing a shop try to pass off herm genes as self perpetuating OD grow i had enough) I have grown backyard breeds (by people that care and not after the dollar) that out performed and held more stable then some store bought seeds.
Yes, I'm with you 'a hundred percent' on that one! There is no intelligent reason why a back-yard breed should'nt out-perform a ridiculously high-priced dog, if it is pieced together slowly, and with TLC! Like the old saying goes, Rome was'nt built in a day; and a building is only as stable as its foundation.
Mutt said:
... credibility in the seedbank biz is at the very least a crap shoot. Don't get me going on the femd thing ... seeing major degen there in the genetic pool grrrr how many phenos lost.......forever...if selfing becomes the norm then what...just a bunch of clone only strains with no variation in an abyss of females....its not what peeps think they are...disappearing of possible great phenos...just my two cents.
That might be your two cents, Mutt, but it's two cents thats worth its weight in gold! Again, I'm with you a hundred percent on that! Feminizing seed and *** reversing is about the worst thing in my books. I have to give "props" to those "tried and true" breeders, still on the scene today, who have resisted that dastardly practice like the plague that it is!
However, there are a few good breeders who would rather not do it, but have been forced into that bad practice by all the rip-off artists who are only too willing to steal their hard work and customers, by feminizing established seedlines that don't even belong to them; nor have they permission to such to them!
