Potential Issue with Dolomite Sweet-Lime *pH runoff CRAZY

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Tact

Learning Everyday
Joined
Oct 28, 2009
Messages
336
Reaction score
112
Hey guys,

Decided to give my plants a good watering today, no nutes this time going to save that for mid next-week. Last time I watered I added nutes and fed the plants, they were recently transplanted from 2-gallon pots to 5-gallon pots. When I made the transplant I added 3 TSPN of dolomite sweet-lime per pot, the 2-gallon pots they came from had 2 TSPNB of dolomite sweet-lime per pot, for a total of 5 TSPN per 5-gallon pot of DSL (dolomite sweet-lime).

So I started with 6.3 pH water (calibrated my meter in 7.0 calibration fluid before getting started). Watered the first pot to runoff and it was reading 7.0 still, so lowered the water to a pH of 6.0, watered more then runoff read 6.9. Moved on to the next plant and the pH read 7.1, lowered the pH of the water to 5.8 and it still read 7.1. Wen on the the next plant with the pH of 5.8 and the runoff was reading 7.3! What IS GOING ON? I thought dolomite sweet-lime had a pH of 7.0 and can not exceed that pH?

The soil of FFOF, which is balanced to a pH of 6.3-6.5. I have no idea how my pH could be climbing above 7.0 much less 7.3 even after running more then a gallon of 5.8pH through the pot! What is going on? What can I even do to remedy this? The dolomite sweet-lime is from Worms Way.

I am about 1/3rd of the way through watering my plants so I will check on this as I dither. As it is now the runoff of the last plant I watered will NOT go below 7.2 pH, I even watered it with 4.9 pH with just a bit to test the runoff, my concern is this will manifest into lockout problems in a few weeks. I am in week 1 of flowering.

I should add that the water is RO water, I have an RO system that I use to treat the tap water.
 
Weird! I don't know what to tell you other than maybe it takes that lime a little while to do it's trick....I would flush the hell out of it with water pH'd on the low side if it were me, but I know what a pain that would be for you with that whacky water you have to use.

I really don't understand...maybe call worms way and explain what is going on, maybe they have an answer for it. If it's the lime that is causing the issue, then they would have, had to have heard about it from other customers.

I hope you get it figured out...but don't forget to chill bud! They are going to be okay, and by the looks of the last picture they are in the best of health...so don't let it bug you too much...I know easier said than done.

Have you tried leaving a gallon of water sitting for a week after adjusting it, to see if it drifts back up again?
 
Yo LF. Just called the Worm, they said "hmm, just keep an eye on it 7.3 is not to bad, you must have something raising it because dolomite can not exceed 7.0". So, yeah weird no matter how much I flush them the pH is not moving.

I proceeded to water the rest of the plants and just get it over with so I can do more things in my day, most of the runoff was 7.0 pH, so who knows? When it comes down to it, I can't do to much other then wait, 7.0 is not terrible so, whatever.

For an added bit of comedy I was getting reckless from impatience and all this watering/shop-vaccing up the water, that I straight up mangled 3-4 leafs on the closest plant to me with the shop-vac suction, lol. Crude pruning, only sucker shooters nothing serious, but each time I was like dad-gummit then the last time "Seriously..".
 
My water is naturally 8.2ph. I add ph down, but if I leave it sit for just a little while the ph drifts back up. I am assuming there is a buffer in the tap water that resists ph change. I am curious also. Great question although sorry you are having the problem.
 
hmmm well like I said to you before, if my plants are looking healthy I don't even check the run-off. I tell ya what come thur. when it is feeding time again I will check mine. Because I add dolomite lime to my FFOF also. Now I'll do this and mine will be off and I'll start freaking...lol.

With your water pH being so high from the ro system, I wonder if there might be some chemical in it that wants to bring the pH back up, after you have adjusted??? Maybe try pHing a gallon of straight ro water and check it in a day or 2 and see if it has drifted back up again. I usually mix up my nutes on wed, and adjust them accordingly. Then I put the air stones to it over night. Come Thur, right before I feed I check again, and usually have to add a little more pH up to the solution, because it has drifted back down again...not alot, but some. So maybe yours is doing that in the soil, but with the dolomite lime it won't let it go over 7, or a little over that. Obviousely I'm just pulling ideas from my behind...lol...trying to figure this out. Good Luck Bud!
 
I would water with 6.5, and up the nutes if the plant can handle it. It should lower it where you want it.
 
I fed the plants last night, 7 days after this post. Nuted it, brought pH up to 6.3 (from 5.4 after 100% str. nute medium feeding AN schedule), and fed. The runoff on all plants was between 6.5-6.6. So just passing it along everyone, attribute it to a 'settling' of the lime?
 
Don't forget to add some magnesium sulphate if you're using lime. Mg and Ca need to be in balance.
 
Maybe I didn't read thoroughly, What kind of nutes do you use? specifically - I know it's AN.

I've had a similar issue and it took analyzing the microbial life to determine why things continued to rise. I may be able to help a bit if the problem continues. Could take me a few - but let me know. You mentioned FFOF for soil.......
 
leafminer said:
Don't forget to add some magnesium sulphate if you're using lime. Mg and Ca need to be in balance.

Ahh, do tell. I don't know anything about this! I started adding cal/mag from the free nutes via GO when I experienced some mag def. due to pH lockup at like week 6 veg.
* I am thinking I do add it with the cal/mag?

Yo Jman, I use the 100% organic AN lineup with the fulvic and humic acid being substituted by a different brand, exact same ingredients though 100% f1/h2 etc.

Water:

RO treated tap-water, base pH of 9.4 (high I know)
Add aquarium stuff that breaks down chloromine (we have chloromine instead of straight chlorine here)
Nutes take pH down to 5.4ish, then treat up with GH dry powder up to 6.3

100% Organic lineup - Medium feeding schedule @ 5gallons:

Iguana juice bloom (grow for veg)
H2 (humic acid)
F1 (fulvic acid)
Carboload (powder)
Sensizym
Piranha (powder)
Tarantula (powder)
Voodoo Juice
Organic B
*supplementing GO Cal/Mag 1 TBSP per gallon of water

hXXp://www.advancednutrients.com/nutcalc3public/nutrient_calculator.html
 
Quick question Tact - Can you tell a little about your aquarium stuff? - Company name - I can't quite see it in your pics - thanks
 
Glad you got it figured out...and at the edge of my seat waiting to see what Jman comes up with! I always appriciate posts comeing from J!
 
jmansweed said:
Quick question Tact - Can you tell a little about your aquarium stuff? - Company name - I can't quite see it in your pics - thanks

hXXp://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2752402&lmdn=Fish

Got the 16oz on sale for like $8 in store locally, should last a while, it enough to treat like 192 [16oz x 30ml / 2.5 (per 5 gallons of water) = 192] gallons of water.

I have 13 plants in 5 gallon buckets, feed/water them once a week in flower with 12ish gallons of water, so this would last 16 weeks of flower, so maybe all together about 2 full grows?
 
Okay Tact,

I hate to assume one's growing experience when trying to solve issues on line so I apologize if I'm over descriptive. First, lets put things into perspective. You've decided to grow organically - which is great decision. Advanced Nutrients is a solid choice as well. In these conditions we are concerned with microbial life. A living system to feed our plants with. For this discussions purpose, we need to broadly understand Bacteria and Fungi. Both form relationships with plants exchanging nutrients for "exudates" which are carb rich fluids microbial life uses for growth. Bacteria release enzymes that naturally raise pH. Fungus use acidic enzymes naturally lowering pH. Enzymes are essentially they're digestive juices. I wan't to post a comment I made regarding pH from another site to help you understand how my approach is to handling organic pH issues.:


" Some organic growers feel there is little need to moniter pH. By choosing appropriate ingredients in the soil to create a balanced microherd and by applying specific water they are ensuring the soil creates natural pH regulatory conditions. This means even when pH is considered not much of a priority in reality it is of great concern made evident by the attempt at maintaining a balanced microbial environment. Basically, maintaining your microherd is similar to maintaining the pH. It's all an attempt at creating proper nutreint absorption conditions.

In saying that, maintaining thriving microbial populations and/or an acceptable pH is a major priority in relasionship to cannabis - under many growing conditions. Your organic solubles will produce an environment that sustains solid microbial life hence they will essentially control your pH. It's hard to trust these methods sometimes but the microbes can handle the job. You only need to adjust pH under organic conditions if something is off. Like too much bacteria to fungi for example or if the water supply is extremely acidic or alkiline previously to application. Even then - in organic grows we can frequently adjust pH by simply adjusting ingredient levels. More humic acids for example to feed Myco and fungi or Molasses to promote bacterial blooms. Both which have effects on pH. Hope that helped a little. Best of luck......."

You can see simply from that, what may be happening here. When I look into organic grows the first thing I do is study the ingredients involved. This will determine how pH will run it's course. Lets consider your medium. FFOF is highly nutritious stuff. In regards to your issue, it has some included oyster shell - a solid source of Calcium and a pH regulatory ingredient. Regulatory in the sense that it raises pH. FF is humus and peat rich - both very acidic. However, the soil alone is quite balanced.

Your water is a little confusing. Before the RO your water is 9 +, right? I'm taking a risk, but I'll assume your water is solid - depended on the pH after RO. The aquarium stuff, from what I understand has no effect on pH or biology.

Treating your organic nutrient mix with Synthetic pH up and/or down is counter productive in many ways. General Hydroponics pH up is potassium carbonate and potassium hydroxide - 100% chemically derived. This is detrimental to microbial development. When you add this to your tea your actually killing some bacteria and more importantly inhibiting germination of fungal spores. Fungal spores are sensitive and develop slowly in the world of biology. Once established they can live through some serious stress - but development is touchy. Fungi lowers pH naturally in organics - with-out them bacteria populations can rise - and so does pH. Not immediately but only after microbial interaction. Your tea and/or solution can appear balanced but the biology may not be. In rare cases only the pH at you root zone (rhizosphere) will be off (or on) while the rest of the medium is different. Again, we must balance the microbial life under organic conditions.

Lets look at your nutes. I'll roughly separate them in categories for our purposes. Ingredients that potentially raise pH through stimulated bacteria directly or indirectly are Carboload, Voodoo Juice and Tarantula. The Voodoo juice contains 5 species of Bacillus bacteria. This specific microbe is tough - it has lasting qualities due to a thicker skin of sorts and may indeed maintain populations through-out the GE pH additions. You also feed them - which is normally good with Carboload. The Tarantula may suffer a bit but your generally higher pH conditions probably help it out a little. So Bacteria appear like they may be okay - and Bacillus probably is thriving. This is all good - provided the Fungi ratio is also on point.

Piranha, B1 (which is primarily fermented brewers yeast), Humic and Fulvic acid and Iguana juice all are designed in one way or another to promote fungal life. Without heavy populations of fungi however, many of these nutes or additives could be some what wasted and the pH would most likely climb. Fungi is also very good at absorbing Ca, Mg and P.

Dolomite lime is a wonderful soil enhancement when needed. It adds Calcium and Magnesium. When using it, typically we eliminate using Ca/Mg products for fear of lock out. Calcium and Magnesium in the wrong ratios will lock each other out eventually. It does help stabilize pH and your right it rarely takes numbers above 7 - when properly applied.

So after understanding all that, lets look at your combination and specific issue. Why is pH climbing? The answer is easy. It's microbial life or the lack there of. The fungi populations are small, hence all the Ca/Mg involved here is only effecting pH and not feeding fungi. Oyster shell, 5 TLSP dolomite per 5 glln, large Bacillus populations and poor Fungi populations have finally revealed themselves. Things happen slowly in organics. The good news is you've seen the first symptom and can address the issue before your ladies feel the effect.

Mixing nutes for organics is not always an exact science. You need to really use some foresight. How will these ingredients react with the soil - and help build life that will balance it self out in ratios that provide an environment indicative to growth and eventually bud formation. Understanding this concept is important. If you add things that slowly effect growth of this microbial life the impact can gradually become worse over time as your finally seeing.

You added Dolomite to allow the medium to balance the pH. So why pH it before adding it yourself? At 5.4 before adjustment, I bet your " living " soil would raise it naturally if it felt the need to at all. Running water through it will naturally draw the minerals not bound in bio-mass out. Your bio-mass is weak at retaining Ca/Mg because of a lack of fungal life. Ca, Mg are just a few things that will leach out - raising the run-off pH more as you leach. Your basically seeing the effects of Dolomite and pH adjusting ingredients with-out proper microbial ratios in organic growing.

So how to fix it - right? My best advise is trust your microbial life. Understand it and trust it. Your feeding schedule sounds fine - with-out the pH adjustment. If you make a tea - as I saw in your picture - and pH is lower than your comfortable with, try adding Molasses (or something similar) to feed bacteria and increase pH naturally rather than killing off Fungi to accomplish the same goal. The lack of Fungi is what eventually brought about the issue in the first place imo.

Your plants look great - just try to prioritize where pH is in relationship to your style of grow. pH is not your concern - it's the microbial life's. You should be more concerned about maintaining balance. Fungi to Bacteria - determining that ratio entails practice but your obviously on the right track. I hope this at least helped you understand what I think is happening here, its an important lesson.

Sorry it took so long - it's like 75 degrees in Cali - gotta love it........

Jman
 
So try watering without pH and if runoff is within the 6.3-6.8 parameters, good to go. Or get some organic up/down like Earthjuice as to not mess with the organic beneficial microbes.

Roger?

If that is the sum of it, I am going to be picking up some Earthjuice Up/Down soon when I head off to get more soil, the clones will need a home soon enough.
 
I think he was saying that if the microbial life is abundant and healthy, that even if your nute mix is in the 5. something range, that the microbes will take care of adjusting the pH. If I understand Jman...and other stuff I've been reading on organics, there is no reason for you to really mess with the pH, let your soil life do it for you. Organics is so much different than dealing with synthetics, and chemicals. We hear so much about adjusting pH because the majority of our members grow with chem/synthetic nutes, that they have to adjust, because they have little to no microbeasties in their mediums to do the job for them.

Organic pH will help though I'm sure if your more comfy seeing that 6.5 instead of the 5.5...lol...

It's hard for me to grasp man, I've been reading alot about TLO lately, and it's so different from what I'm used to...it's hard to trust in something that we are not seeing. But if you are able to read your plant then they will tell you if it's working or not. This is what makes me nervous about going totally organic (I feel like a hippy everytime I say those 2 words...lol) I feel like there is so much more to understand, but in reality, it's all about trusting the nature of it, and not our desire to interfere with it.

Thanks again Jman for another awesome lesson in organics.

Tact you are not alone, I have for yrs been using FF, and trying to keep microbes abundant...lol...but the 2 just don't go hand in hand. If I'm going to feed a synthetic feed, then I'm not going to worry too much about my microbial life, because I'm going to have very little of it...I may as well be using coco coir, instead of soil honestly. I think the FF company misleads you a little to in that they give you this abundant soil, and then put out a fert that does not support the life in the soil.
 
Well let me ask this, will using an organic pH adjusted like Earthjuice kill off beneficial microbes?
 
If I understand Earthjuice right it is a compost/worm casting tea which would make it nothing but a microorganism brew (contains nothing but microbes)
 
Short answer is no

I think you'll find more benefits from eventually practicing with adjusting ingredients to balance things out - and so will your ladies imho.....
 

Latest posts

Back
Top