lights wont turn on

[mendo local]

I suggest beefing up the wire to 6 gauge. I was told by CAP that you want a 15-20% buffer for running this unit. I am running the same unit @ 50 amps @120v with 8 600w Lumatek ballast triggered to a CAP XGC-1 with no problems. CAP told me since my ballasts are 120v only to run 120, since the volts are cut in half the unit can now handle 80 amps at start up. I am only pulling 45.875. The six gauge wire will also fit in the MLC-8. And this all running off a single pole 50 amp breaker.

The mlc8 is rated 240v at 40amps. Upping the wire size would be dangerous.
8Gauge wire is rated for 40 amps.

The thing that everyone is overlooking is that on a 40 amp 220 breaker, there are two breakers in one, they should be connected by a tab. If one leg is tripping that means they are not connected. If the breaker tripps you should be resetting both breakers in unison. If one leg is blowing this obviosly isnt the right breaker.
Are you using 2 seperate 40 amp breakers, or one 40 amp double pole breaker?

Also the lights only consume 36amps, there shouldnt be any problem with start up.

 

[Growdude]

The mlc8 is rated 240v at 40amps. Upping the wire size would be dangerous.
8Gauge wire is rated for 40 amps.

Ive seen double pole breakers trip one side, i do know what your saying it has a connecting bar, or should.

I hate pickin but uping the wire size is never dangerous, its the load that draws current not the wire. a bigger wire only means it has the capacity to carry more.

Remember the breaker is there to protect the wire not the load.

 

[BuddyLuv]

^thank you. My buddy does commercial HVAC for a living. We have always ran larger wire then what the breaker calls for. His reason is the wire will not get as hot as the smaller wire. The breaker will only allow the load it is rated for to transfer to the wre. This is what he told me and I am no electrician. I am just saying there is some sort of arc issue or short in his system. I am running the same unit at 120v @50 amps without issues. This was also done after a 1 hour phone conversation with the manufacturer and told it was safe to do so.

 

[mendo local]

Ive seen double pole breakers trip one side, i do know what your saying it has a connecting bar, or should.

I hate pickin but uping the wire size is never dangerous, its the load that draws current not the wire. a bigger wire only means it has the capacity to carry more.

Remember the breaker is there to protect the wire not the load.

Wire and breakers are rated for a reason. Upping the wire size is dangerous because what happens is,

Say your #8 wire is rated 40 amps and your breaker is 40 amps. So you put in a #6 wire which is rated 55 amps.

The reason the breaker trips is because of heat. So if you use a #6 the wire has to get substantially hotter before it will trip the breaker. Which in turn will allow more power to the device when it is trying to operate.

Ill try to explain,

Hold the end of a sewing needle between 2 fingers, then hold a lighter to the other end of it. See how long it takes before you cant hold it anymore.

Then, Hold a nail and repeat the same scenario.

Obviously the needle will be too hot to hold before the nail correct?

So if your fingers were the breaker, which one would you let go of first?

Im just trying to explain this from an electricians point of view. Safety always comes first.

 

[BuddyLuv]

So I am not safe running 6 gauge 3 strand wire with a 50 amp single pole breaker @ 120v? Just asking if you are an electrician.

 

[mendo local]

Thats perfectly safe, thats what the breaker is rated for. I always wondered why they dont make a 55 amp breaker but code calls a 50amp for #6. But I do Wonder what the setup would be used for?

If its NM or UF #6 its rated at 55 amps

If its THHN or XHHW-2 #6 its rated at 75 amps

 

[BuddyLuv]

It is NM or UF 3x6 gauge wire. I bought 8 600w lumateks and was going to run CAP UPN-1 for them but the guy at cap told me to buy a MLC-8a and run 120v instead of 240v to the unit. He said that since the unit is rated for 40 amps@ 240 dropping the voltage down to 120 would allow for the unit to handle more amps. and the unit already comes with 120v style outlets. He said most digital ballasts will run on either 120 or 240 but the lumateks a not mutlitap and can only run on 120.

 

[mendo local]

well,
8 600watt lights at 240v is 24 amps
8 600watt light at 120v is 48amps

Im not sure I understand when he says dropping to 120v would allow the unit to handle more amps. Either way it works for you and that all that matters!

 

[BuddyLuv]

he said beacuse the fuse in the unit is rated for 40 amps @ 240volts.

 

[mendo local]

There is no fuse in the unit.

 

[BuddyLuv]

excuse me that is what I thought he was saying. Eitherway he said that it was rated for 40 amps @ 240 so dropping the voltage would increase the amps the unit could handle. Please correct me if I am wrong. I do not want to burn my house down. I have only been running this unit for a couple days, shoot I haven't even finished assembling the other aero unit yet.

 

[mendo local]

^thank you. My buddy does commercial HVAC for a living. We have always ran larger wire then what the breaker calls for. His reason is the wire will not get as hot as the smaller wire. The breaker will only allow the load it is rated for to transfer to the wre. This is what he told me and I am no electrician. I am just saying there is some sort of arc issue or short in his system. I am running the same unit at 120v @50 amps without issues. This was also done after a 1 hour phone conversation with the manufacturer and told it was safe to do so.

If the manufactuer said its ok, I guess its ok. Myself personally would have used a #8 wire .

If you ever do have a problem, your wire will need to get alot hotter before the 50amp breaker will trip. Thats where things get weird, cause does the breaker trip? or does something melt first?
I dont want to freak ya out, just giving ya the facts.

 

[BuddyLuv]

but I thought 8 gauge is rated for 40 amps. I am pulling almost 46.

 

[clanchattan]

I just looked up the controller and I assume your timer is not on the same circuit as your contactor feed?

4.5a @ 240v = 36a total

36a is 90% of a 40a circuit load.

if yer timer is on the circuit that keeps tripping, the relay that runs your contactor, and the contactors themselves (because they are electrically held)are chewing away at the 10% amperage room you have under your
40a limit. Try moving your timer to a different outlet that's not part of your lighting circuits.

if not

a loose contactor connection would be my first inclination as to why only one pole is breaking ( i guess your 40a breaker is a double pole double throw ). Loose connections eat up amps. Shut down your 240v circuit and use your timer to close the contactors, then take a ohm reading across each contactor pole if one is higher than the rest bingo (also look for scortch marks on the contactor terminals, again bingo). hope this helps

 

[Growdude]

Wire and breakers are rated for a reason. Upping the wire size is dangerous because what happens is,

Say your #8 wire is rated 40 amps and your breaker is 40 amps. So you put in a #6 wire which is rated 55 amps.

The reason the breaker trips is because of heat. So if you use a #6 the wire has to get substantially hotter before it will trip the breaker. Which in turn will allow more power to the device when it is trying to operate.

Ill try to explain,

Hold the end of a sewing needle between 2 fingers, then hold a lighter to the other end of it. See how long it takes before you cant hold it anymore.

Then, Hold a nail and repeat the same scenario.

Obviously the needle will be too hot to hold before the nail correct?

So if your fingers were the breaker, which one would you let go of first?

Im just trying to explain this from an electricians point of view. Safety always comes first.

The way it works is the breaker is what heats up internally and trips, it heats up from to much current.
The heat of the wire does not trip the breaker.

Here is a test for you, a little more scientific than the needle test.

Take a clamp on ammeter with say a #12 on a 15 amp breaker and max it out, see where it trips.

Then put a #10 on the same breaker and do the same, you will see it trips the breaker at the same current as the first test.

It wouldn't make a lot of sence to make breakers trip from hot wires, the idea is that the wire doesnt get hot.

Here is some reading on how breakers function http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/circuit-breaker2.htm

 

[greenfriend]

first thank you everyone for all the help!

norcal - you got it right, but ive already got the controller, and the warranty on the lumatek ballasts says do not use certain intermatic timers.

buddy - running 240V instead of 120V actually doubles the amperage you draw - very helpful when running lots of lights. 1000W ballasts @120V will draw 9 amps each. and the lumateks i have are 240V only

clan - i think ur on to something. i have used 2 different timers for the trigger cable, so its not the timer, but i will try different outlets to see if putting it on a different circuit helps

growdude - yes the breaker has a connecting bar - when the breaker trips the little bar is twisted to the side, which led me to believe only one leg was breaking

mendo - the run from main to subpanel is 10 ft, then 10 ft from sub to controller. the controller is new. i am using 40 double pole breaker as recommend by c.a.p. for over current protection. but my electrician had to get breakers that also ran the existing 20 amp breakers b/c there were no empty slots in the panel. (the 40 amp breakers fit into the middle of the 20 amp ones - which remain on when the 40 amp breaker is tripped)

i checked all connections on the controller - no arcing

i cannot change wire size - the controller requires 8/3 wire @ 40 amps

another interesting thing - when the breaker trips, the indicator light on the MLC-8 that shows when relays are on remains lit. so the relays are on even though the breaker is not.

i have a second 40 amp line that was installed for future addition of lights, i will try that one to determine whether the breaker is defective

 

[The Effen Gee]

If you bought this new...from a store, I would return it or take a close look @ you MLC, if the wires are the correct guage than heat caused resistance is not an issue.

I am glad to see that there are folks on the site I can come to with wiring and electrical issues, as I make a really poor electrician.

 

[BuddyLuv]

another interesting thing - when the breaker trips, the indicator light on the MLC-8 that shows when relays are on remains lit. so the relays are on even though the breaker is not.

i have a second 40 amp line that was installed for future addition of lights, i will try that one to determine whether the breaker is defective

That is because the trigger cable powers the relays.so if the trigger is on a different circut it will still be receiving power to the relays.