Light Penetration?

[umbra]

reminds me of trying to explain non linear optics to my son

 

[Landing]

OK here it is, an oversimplified explanation of light energy: light sources emit light in photons. These photons carry energy that is given to the plants for energizing their processes.

Thank you, Hushpuppy. I appreciate you taking the time to write that.

Though, to be honest, that wasn't the part I was contesting.

My question was - Why can't the photons from both bulbs intersect and boost each other all the way down to the plant?

My thinking is, if the light bounces off the mylar at the side of the grow space, and there is VISIBLY more light with two 400w bulbs than one 600w bulb, then the photons from each bulb should intersect, create more light and penetrate further.

I think umbra hit on this but his explanation was a bit too technical, in that light flows in waves and the waves from each 400w bulb cannot intersect and therefore each photon still has only 40g of fuel.

But in that case, why does it APPEAR to be more light with an 800w setup? I mean certainly if you can see more light then those photons must still have energy, no?

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

Light simply does not act that way. I am sorry that no one can explain it to your liking, but honestly Landing, this is the way it is. Why do you insist on arguing with everyone over everything. It took us 2 pages and 30 posts to convince you that your nutrients were not doing their jobs. We do get tired of this.....

 

[umbra]

Thank you, Hushpuppy. I appreciate you taking the time to write that.

Though, to be honest, that wasn't the part I was contesting.

My question was - Why can't the photons from both bulbs intersect and boost each other all the way down to the plant?

My thinking is, if the light bounces off the mylar at the side of the grow space, and there is VISIBLY more light with two 400w bulbs than one 600w bulb, then the photons from each bulb should intersect, create more light and penetrate further.

I think umbra hit on this but his explanation was a bit too technical, in that light flows in waves and the waves from each 400w bulb cannot intersect and therefore each photon still has only 40g of fuel.

But in that case, why does it APPEAR to be more light with an 800w setup? I mean certainly if you can see more light then those photons must still have energy, no?

Its the distance. As the photons bounce off the mylar, their energy decreases expontientially because of the inverse square law, so that by the time they intersect there is no amplification or multiplying of their energy. Light acts as both a wave and a particle (photon). (Young's double slit experiment). The reason it looks brighter is because the light is traveling in every direction, and not just in the direction of the plant and not because the light intensity has increased.

 

[goats_head_soup]

Its the distance. As the phitstons bounce off the mylar, their energy decreases expontientially because of the inverse square law, so that by the time they intersect there is no amplification or multiplying of their energy. Light acts as both a wave and a particle (photon). (Young's double slit experiment). The reason it looks brighter is because the light is traveling in every direction, and not just in the direction of the plant and not because the light intensity has increased.

Wow. That about sums it up. Time to close

 

[Landing]

Its the distance. As the photons bounce off the mylar, their energy decreases expontientially because of the inverse square law, so that by the time they intersect there is no amplification or multiplying of their energy. Light acts as both a wave and a particle (photon). (Young's double slit experiment). The reason it looks brighter is because the light is traveling in every direction, and not just in the direction of the plant and not because the light intensity has increased.

I didn't realize that, but two more questions:

1.) What about when the photons intersect BEFORE hitting the mylar, i.e. when they're just being released from the bulb? If they are on the same wavelength, wouldn't that still amplify each photon?

2.) If photons lose energy exponentially as they bounce of mylar, why should we use mylar? I keep seeing people not cornering their grow space and I wondered why - is it because there's little use in using mylar?

 

[Hackerman]

1) Yes, they would BUT, the wavelengths are not lined up so it doesn't.

2) There is light loss from everything that reflects. Some worse than others.

 

[Riddleme]

I love reading forum post on lights, thank you all so much

I use T5's to flower that are 2 foot (or more) off the canopy and grow 12 to 18 inch cola's all the time

very few growers truly understand light

View attachment tb.jpg

View attachment tb2.jpg

View attachment harv.jpg

 

[umbra]

Hi Landing, I tried to simplify what is going on with light. But besides the inverse square law effecting the energy, the mylar does not reflect 100% of the light. 50% of so is lost in absorption and scatter. The reason to use mylar is to get light to parts of the plant that wouldn't normally see light. It doesn't add more light, just disperses it to another part of the plant. This essentially what the 2 lights are doing, they are not adding more light for better penetration, but are being dispersed over a wider area. They are not the same thing.

 

[zem]

I love reading forum post on lights, thank you all so much

I use T5's to flower that are 2 foot (or more) off the canopy and grow 12 to 18 inch cola's all the time

very few growers truly understand light

flowering with T5's that are 2 foot away from the canopy? what is the efficiency like when compared to HPS? and why 2foot away? you are losing light intensity because of the distance

 

[Riddleme]

flowering with T5's that are 2 foot away from the canopy? what is the efficiency like when compared to HPS? and why 2foot away? you are losing light intensity because of the distance

There is really no comparison as HPS is the wrong spectrum (yes I know they have a few somewhat better bulbs now) with HPS the plants only use about 40% of what is being thrown at em. With my setup the spectrum is dialed into 100% and I can tweak it simply by changing bulbs (which I have done shown in pic)

But key is the way I use temp differences in the garden and the way I tweak the RH, my garden is in a 500 sq ft room that is wide open, no tent, no carbon scrubber, no seals, lots of light leaks, no hermies, no stink, I break all the mythical rules found in forums and been doing for a lot of years

when the environment is properly dialed in the plants use light much more efficiently and actually I just flipped a few that are 4 feet away from the light which was why I put the (or more) in. Yes they will strech a bit which I totally plan for so they will be at 2 feet makin buds.

I'm able to add deep blue for frost, I'm able to add UVB for more potency then there is a mix of 6500K and 4100K as well

View attachment S_SAM_2202.JPG

 

[Riddleme]

This is what my garden looks like today, I just flipped a bunch 2 weeks ago and yes sometimes the Sats grow into the light LOL

View attachment S_SAM_2610.JPG

 

[NorCalHal]

So you flower in an approximate area of 4'x4' with the T5's? How does spectrum control the smell?

 

[Hackerman]

@Riddleme. I am an out of the box thinker and ofter look for alternative ways to "skin the cat".

I would love to see you start a new thread with details about your grow room (and methods).

I can't quite get a perspective from the pics you posted. Are those 4 foot lamps?

 

[Riddleme]

So you flower in an approximate area of 4'x4' with the T5's? How does spectrum control the smell?

it is actually 5 X 5 and it is not just the spectrum, the plants stink for several reasons, to communicate with each other, to ward off predators, and in response to stress. The biggest cause for it in indoor gardens is "stealth" the sealed nature of rooms and tents does not allow for ideal temp settings because they hold heat in, the ventilation used to control that heat (and smell) alters the barometric pressure which is something plants respond to and also changes water movement in pots.

There are 3 important temps in a garden, not one, there is the ambient temp, the canopy temp and the root zone temp, right now my ambient is at 77, my root zone is at 68 and my canopy is at 90 (yes I monitor them all) a canopy temp that is 15~20 degrees higher than ambient better reflects what occurs outdoors and is impossible to dial in a sealed room/tent.

I adjust humidity by using a heat index calculator (I use this one, http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver16.htm ) Heat index is a measurement that is about how things feel to us (humans) but also about a temp/humidity relationship that affects VPD which affect how much the stomata open up a heat index of 4 points above ambient is ideal for plants to grow vigorously, example if your ambient is 72 and your RH is 32 the heat index is 76.4 and this is another thing that is difficult to dial in in a sealed room.

Can't tell how many growers that have read my stuff and simply open the flaps on their tents and reported after a few hours the smell went away

 

[Riddleme]

@Riddleme. I am an out of the box thinker and ofter look for alternative ways to "skin the cat".

I would love to see you start a new thread with details about your grow room (and methods).

I can't quite get a perspective from the pics you posted. Are those 4 foot lamps?

I will try to post some stuff (might be a lot of cut and paste lol) I stay pretty busy, I have a forum (it's private invite only) and am workin on my 2nd book and I lurk and post in several forums (much like I have done here) I am constantly researchin and experimentin

the lights are Oracle High Bay's 6 bulb fixtures, with Phillips ballast, they cost $130 each and blow any grow store light completely away in terms of quality I got em in a regular lighting store and yeppers they are 4 foot fixtures that use T5 HO 54 watt bulbs

 

[JustAnotherAntMarching]

the plants stink for several reasons, to communicate with each other

What do they communicate? and how do they so that thru smell?? :afroweed:

 

[Riddleme]

What do they communicate? and how do they so that thru smell?? :afroweed:

I have read several scientific studies on it. don't know how they do it but it is documented that if say a deer starts eaten on a plant it will skunk up to ward the deer off and within several seconds all the plants in the area will skunk up as well indicating that they have become aware a predator is close by

 

[NorCalHal]

it is actually 5 X 5 and it is not just the spectrum, the plants stink for several reasons, to communicate with each other, to ward off predators, and in response to stress. The biggest cause for it in indoor gardens is "stealth" the sealed nature of rooms and tents does not allow for ideal temp settings because they hold heat in, the ventilation used to control that heat (and smell) alters the barometric pressure which is something plants respond to and also changes water movement in pots.

There are 3 important temps in a garden, not one, there is the ambient temp, the canopy temp and the root zone temp, right now my ambient is at 77, my root zone is at 68 and my canopy is at 90 (yes I monitor them all) a canopy temp that is 15~20 degrees higher than ambient better reflects what occurs outdoors and is impossible to dial in a sealed room/tent.

I adjust humidity by using a heat index calculator (I use this one, http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver16.htm ) Heat index is a measurement that is about how things feel to us (humans) but also about a temp/humidity relationship that affects VPD which affect how much the stomata open up a heat index of 4 points above ambient is ideal for plants to grow vigorously, example if your ambient is 72 and your RH is 32 the heat index is 76.4 and this is another thing that is difficult to dial in in a sealed room.

Can't tell how many growers that have read my stuff and simply open the flaps on their tents and reported after a few hours the smell went away

I am not understanding how opening a tent flap will control the odor. If you run a sealed room and can control the temps/RH it shouldn't smell? That just makes no sense to me. Terpenes are mostly genetic, the plant when budding will reak if it is a high terpene strain. As we all know, they throw terpenes harder at night. That's why a dark room after a few hours smells more. IMO, the only way to control odor is carbon scrubbing. If it ain't stinkin', it prob aint worth growing.

Heat index is only one way to help open the stomata. Opening the stomata will only help it breath easier, if you want real vigous growth, you must boost the CO2 level along with it. Subsonic harmonic waves will also open your stomata and allow you to run at lower temps, producing a tighter bud structure. Running your canopy temps at 90 is a little too high imo.


IME, running lower then 40% on RH restricts the plants growth. They still grow, but not as bangin' as they do when it's around 50. That is for flowering though.

If you have a sealed room, and the right equipment, you can run at pretty much any temp/RH/CO2 you want. The 3 critical temps you mention naturally fall into place. It will always be a little hotter at the canopy as compared to the root zone, if you can achieve your ambient temps.

For a 5 x 5 space, you should be hitting a solid 2.5# in that area for every cycle. I don't see T5's doing that at all. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not about the "quality over quantity" argument, if your dialed, it should be both.

 

[Riddleme]

I am not understanding how opening a tent flap will control the odor. If you run a sealed room and can control the temps/RH it shouldn't smell? That just makes no sense to me. Terpenes are mostly genetic, the plant when budding will reak if it is a high terpene strain. As we all know, they throw terpenes harder at night. That's why a dark room after a few hours smells more. IMO, the only way to control odor is carbon scrubbing. If it ain't stinkin', it prob aint worth growing.

Heat index is only one way to help open the stomata. Opening the stomata will only help it breath easier, if you want real vigous growth, you must boost the CO2 level along with it. Subsonic harmonic waves will also open your stomata and allow you to run at lower temps, producing a tighter bud structure. Running your canopy temps at 90 is a little too high imo.


IME, running lower then 40% on RH restricts the plants growth. They still grow, but not as bangin' as they do when it's around 50. That is for flowering though.

If you have a sealed room, and the right equipment, you can run at pretty much any temp/RH/CO2 you want. The 3 critical temps you mention naturally fall into place. It will always be a little hotter at the canopy as compared to the root zone, if you can achieve your ambient temps.

For a 5 x 5 space, you should be hitting a solid 2.5# in that area for every cycle. I don't see T5's doing that at all. Correct me if I'm wrong. It's not about the "quality over quantity" argument, if your dialed, it should be both.

I'm not arguing though I do prefer quality and because you don't understand plants reaction to natural barometric pressure does not make it so. my plants have never stunk unless I slap em or knock em over, they smell and taste just fine once cured and I have 2 that test at 25% THC I grow regularly that most can't handle, 2 hits good for 4 hours for me

I've had 2 people tell me my buds are better than dispensary dabs

and I prefer my humidity in the 30's, well proven to increase resin % trics

I roll perpetual plants in plants out kinda thing so my area is hardly ever harvested all at once, I only grow for myself and average 2 to 8 oz's per plant depending on method, veg time and strain

trust me my area is dialed in I have pulled a elbow off 2 plants several times in the past