Topping question

Hey guys,
When is the optimal/earliest time to top a plant?

I try to avoid any high stress until after week 4 I just use LST. Then I'll top after week 4.

Ahhhhh, this is a trick question!

It has two different answers.

Mutt is totally correct in what he says, as long as it pertains to a plant grown from seed.

If your plant is grown from a cutting, then as a clone of the host plant, it will have the same growth characteristics as the host plant had.

If you take a cutting from a plant that has not reached it's sexual maturity, and has not developed alternating nodes, then the clone will be at that same stage of growth. It will develop the same number of nodes as the host plant until alternating nodes appear on both. The rooting time will delay the cuttings development until new growth appears.

However, if you use a cutting from a sexually mature plant, the cloned plant will also be sexually mature as soon as it's developed roots. It's first set of nodes will alternate.

This plant, you can top as soon as it's rooted and has new growth to top.

wow i did not know that.
thats kinda cool.

thanks stoney and mutt!

What about the first node? Or should I wait a few more days and top the second node? Just know that my first set of leaves after the water leaves only developed half way, but the rest looks great. Well, that first node anyway. I should wait right guys? By the way I'm new here. First plant also!
Thanks,
Richy

i top when the plant is about 18inches tall and they finish around 3 feet or more . but you have to know your strain normally they grow twice there height by the end

Ive done one grow before and kinda just let the plant do its thing, no topping or LST. However, id like a little more explananation on what topping is and what LST. The exact technique used to do the procedures, should they been done in flower or in veg, should they mature before doing some topping/lst? Also, i have noticed alot of talk 'pinching'. What exactly is pinching, how is it dont, when should it be done, should it be done flower or veg and about how long should you wait before you do the first pinch?

I know these 3 techniques are used to increase yield but also used to control height, just curious as how to employ the techniques without killing my plants!

Nova said:

Ive done one grow before and kinda just let the plant do its thing, no topping or LST. However, id like a little more explananation on what topping is and what LST. The exact technique used to do the procedures, should they been done in flower or in veg, should they mature before doing some topping/lst? Also, i have noticed alot of talk 'pinching'. What exactly is pinching, how is it dont, when should it be done, should it be done flower or veg and about how long should you wait before you do the first pinch?

I know these 3 techniques are used to increase yield but also used to control height, just curious as how to employ the techniques without killing my plants!

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Hello Nova,

Topping and Pinching accomplish the same thing, two different ways.

LST is something that uses the same plant hormone, but for a different reason, (sort of).

MJ has a hormone that it sends the most of to the tallest branch tip on the plant. It also sends a lesser amount of this hormone to the tallest part of each branch on the plant.

This hormone makes the tallest branch the "Primary" branch on the plant. It's where the largest bud on the plant will grow and is also the fastest growing branch on the plant.

The plant can be "fooled" into sending the most of this hormone to a different branch by simply MAKING another branch the tallest. This is what LST does.

With LST, you gently bend the primary, (tallest), branch over, or any other branch, and secure it so that it is now NOT the tallest branch. You have to do this in several days, using very small gentle moves until you arrive at it's new elevation. Then, you use a twist tie or string to secure it in it's bend.

Whatever branch is now the tallest branch will have the most "tallest growth" hormone sent to it by the plant.

LST also accomplishes something else.

The branch that you bend over can be tied so that the top of the branch is lower than the rest of the same branch. This will cause the side stems on that branch to start growing directly up in competition to be the tallest on that particular branch.

Many growers use this method to help fill a grow room to it's fullest capacity. If left alone, MJ is a plant that with some strains can reach 20+ feet in height. If you put another plant, just like it, next to it, and use LST on it, then that plant will be shorter, but bushier. The end harvest will be identical in weight. The plant without LST will have fewer, larger buds that add up to the same weight as the LST'd plant with it's multitude of smaller buds.

However, inside a grow room, height is usually a concern.

My grow room allows only 5 feet of plant growth space after all the other considerations are subtracted. The space between the ceiling and the light, the height of the light itself and the space between the light and the plants. Also the height of the growing chambers or pots.

I have to either top each plant to make it stay within this height limit, or I can use LST to spread the plant out in the direction I wish it to grow.

This will enable me to fill every space in my grow room with buds. The plant won't have enough height space to reach it's potential of maximum bud growth. I use LST to move it lower and fill the room. This will cause a dramatic increase in harvested bud because the plant has more tips and the plant fills all the previously empty places in the grow room. I have taken each branch and turned it into many by allowing the side branches to grow with accelerated growth due to the additional growth hormone that the plant gives them due to my bending over the tallest part of the branch so that it's now NOT the tallest part of that particular branch.

Topping is a different method to get to the same point.

When you top a plant by either cutting or pinching off a tip, or you can only crush the tips stem, then the plant will grow TWO stems from each point that you've caused harm to. This minor harm is sent a "healing" hormone by the plant and will grow very slowly until it's healed. If cut, it will be covered by a "scab" made by the plant. If crushed, it will slowly heal and the plant will make a "knee", or thicker point exactly where you crushed it. Both crushing and cutting will make the TWO stems grow from the same place where this injury has happened.

If you start topping a plant when it's just out of it's seedling stage, you can also fill a grow room much better than leaving it with it's natural growth.

By combining LST and topping, an inside grower can maximize the amount of bud per/sq ft of the grow room.

Another method of arriving at this end result is by growing single branch plants. This is much faster because the plant hardly slows down.

As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola.

The problem with this type of grow is that most police use the NUMBER of plants against you. Maximizing your grow area this way will cause the penalty to be more severe if you're busted.

There are additional hormones that can be used when using a single branch grow that will slow plant height and increase bud size. This will allow more massive bud growth on those single buds that require them to be supported to prevent bending over and breaking.

If you live in an area that plant count is a consideration, I would suggest that you use ONE plant and maximize the LST and topping to fill your grow space.

I've filled a 5 foot by 5 foot room with one plant and harvested a little more than a cured pound from it. If I had 20 plants in the same space, I would have harvested the same amount of weed, just faster.

Each time you top a plant, it slows it's growth until the cut part is healed and THEN it sends the growth hormone to the new TWO stems that grow from the cut spot.

Keep in mind that LST, topping and crushing or pinching can only be done in the VEGETATIVE cycle of the plant. Once it's flowering, you shouldn't do any of them because it will detract from flower growth.

I tried to cover as much as possible, but I have no doubt that I missed telling you something. Post anything that isn't clear to you, and either me or someone else will fill in the gaps.

Good luck to you!!!

As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola.

Click to expand...

or .... grow 12/12 from seed

Thank you Stoney Bud! Those were the best explanations i have read yet! I dont have a gigantic grow space for flowering, 8ft long, 7ft wide, and 9ft high. Going to grow 3-4 plants in there with (2) 400w HPS. should be enought light? I have the room and floor completely sterile and covered with 2mil mylar, to enchance the light...sound about right for 2 northern lights and 2 white widows?

Nova said:

Thank you Stoney Bud! Those were the best explanations i have read yet! I dont have a gigantic grow space for flowering, 8ft long, 7ft wide, and 9ft high. Going to grow 3-4 plants in there with (2) 400w HPS. should be enought light? I have the room and floor completely sterile and covered with 2mil mylar, to enchance the light...sound about right for 2 northern lights and 2 white widows?

Click to expand...

Hay Nova, the amount of light needed is dependant on the square footage of your grow area.

You need a MINIMUM of 3,000 lumens per/sq ft.

5,000 lumens per/sq ft is optimum.

Your light has a known lumen rate. If you go to the manufacturers website, you can find it.

It's also on the box it came in.

Calculate the square footage of your grow area and then apply some math to figure out your lumens per/sq ft. for your current light.

This is the math your teacher told you that you would need later...

Looks like i am running at about 110,000 total lumens, each light covering a 3x4 area. So i am running very close to 5,000 lumens per sq foot. Actually it is 4983 lumens per sq. foot. I am using 2 HPS bulbs. both rated at 400w. I plan on doing some major LST on my mother plants, really wanted to get one of those plant cages, the kind you use for tomatos. And slowly just grow it around the entire cage, and it there is no more cage left. Sound like too much? i also planned on the cage for providing some structural integrity, taking on some of the plants weight when i do go to flower her...

Nova said:

Looks like i am running at about 110,000 total lumens, each light covering a 3x4 area. So i am running very close to 5,000 lumens per sq foot. Actually it is 4983 lumens per sq. foot. I am using 2 HPS bulbs. both rated at 400w. I plan on doing some major LST on my mother plants, really wanted to get one of those plant cages, the kind you use for tomatos. And slowly just grow it around the entire cage, and it there is no more cage left. Sound like too much? i also planned on the cage for providing some structural integrity, taking on some of the plants weight when i do go to flower her...

Click to expand...

You have perfect lighting. Congrats.

I've thought about the tomato cages as well. I've just never got them and tried them. I'll watch your experiment with interest!

Good luck to you!

Stoney Bud said:

You have perfect lighting. Congrats.

I've thought about the tomato cages as well. I've just never got them and tried them. I'll watch your experiment with interest!

Good luck to you!

Click to expand...

Well, before i even knew what LST is/was, i had planned on using the cages. I really hope to maximize yields using the cages, having the plant twine itself around the entire cage very closely. Its gonna take some work and time, but i figure while im busy testing this out i can clone it out and test for sex, then if its female, clone a few plants and grow them without cages, and then after the mother has been harvested, compare actual yield.

Should be interesting enough, and simple! Just requires work and dedication. We'll see.....look for my grown journal!

Stoney Bud said:

Keep in mind that LST, topping and crushing or pinching can only be done in the VEGETATIVE cycle of the plant. Once it's flowering, you shouldn't do any of them because it will detract from flower growth.

Click to expand...

Stoney - that was a fantastic read.......... Thanks!!!!!!!!

Once it is flowering, do not LST? Leave it alone?

Is it possible that continued LST while in flower keeps allowing the "growth hormone" to continue in the plant?

I have not been able to stop the growth of my plants while flowering.:hairpull: I have attributed it to nutes issues as well and have tossed MG out in the yard where it belongs. I will be currently using Fox Farm BB, TB and OF soil to solve nute issues while in flower.

Also had 3 plants in 3 sq ft space. Overcrouding causes plant growth hormone to "compete" for space, I bet. I have since reduced my flower box to one plant. I am at 6,300 lumens per sq ft.

Thanks for any further input or insight on this issue.

Stoney - that was a fantastic read.......... Thanks!!!!!!!!

You're very welcome. That's what this place is all about. One member helping many.

Once it is flowering, do not LST? Leave it alone?

Yes. If you plan your grow properly, your plants should harvest at the topmost height allowed by your area. Planning ahead, using LST or topping, and timing your flowering so as to stay within your area restrictions are all parts of learning to grow properly. LST should be unnecessary during flowering and yes, it will alter the plants flowering cycle and displace hormones and plant energy by using them for things other than flowering.

Is it possible that continued LST while in flower keeps allowing the "growth hormone" to continue in the plant?

It doesn't work that way. A plant uses every single bit of energy that it receives and creates to grow as well as possible with procreation being the "prime directive" in regards to how it grows. By using LST during the flowering cycle, you've made the plant split it's resources into several paths. The tiny fractures created while using LST will take some of the plants energy to heal the wounds. The growth hormones used to re-direct accelerated growth on the "new" top growth will also detract from the total energy the plant has to use.

Your plants should be ready to flower with no more alterations to their natural growth at that stage. Your buds will love you for it.

I have not been able to stop the growth of my plants while flowering. I have attributed it to nutes issues as well and have tossed MG out in the yard where it belongs. I will be currently using Fox Farm BB, TB and OF soil to solve nute issues while in flower.

Plants always have a growth spurt, usually twice, during the flowering cycle. This is normal and should also be used as criteria in the total grow formula you develop BEFORE growing a crop. That way, each time the plant arrives at a predetermined point within your plan, you expect it and have prepared for it.

You should calculate the height remaining for your plants at a vegetative height, and flower the plants when it's appropriate for that area.

I flower most of my grows at 18" average height during the vegetative cycle. The first flowering spurt takes them to 36" and the second to almost exactly 5 feet tall at harvest each time.

This maximizes my plants to the grow area in width, length and height while allowing them to grow to their very best.

Also had 3 plants in 3 sq ft space. Overcrowding causes plant growth hormone to "compete" for space, I bet. I have since reduced my flower box to one plant. I am at 6,300 lumens per sq ft.

Several factors come into play when plants are over-crowded. None of them are beneficial.

Thanks for any further input or insight on this issue.

You're always welcome. I love teaching others to grow their own weed. It keeps us all safer, healthier and with more of our hard earned money in our own pocket to use for bettering our lives.

Good luck to you!

:cry: It is a shame that these very informative "reports" from the pros get lost in the system.:confused2:

In 20 days, the same question will be asked again, and this informative post will be unknown. So much deadwood is in the history for searches on this forum:rant: that it is very time exhaustive to locate a particular thread or subject matter. The poster of this valuable info gets tired of writing the same thing, etc...........

It gives me an idea for a suggestion for the future. Heading over to the suggestion box:bolt:

This thread has been added to the growing resources.
click the link in my sig.
Thanks stoney...PB is right when ya spend this much time on a reply...should be easily found.

:aok: Stoney that was awsome! I always knew why I do those things but I never took the time to break it down like that. HEY that give me an idea..... someone in MP should write a growing book based on all the info in MP. It would be like a chronicals or something? :beatnik: