# Oh ya! got me some goodies



## next

Hey MP,

So I have been thinking and I think it would be awesome to try an outdoor, organic, autoflower plant or two, or five who knows 

I just made a trip to a huge garden store and scored a bunch of goodeis that are not usually available to me. Have a looky
View attachment goodies.jpg


I also have the following 

Green Earth - Bone meal 4-10-0
Algamin Kelp Meal 1-0-2
Buffaloam Compost 1-1-1
EWC
Azomite
Dolomite Lime
Bale of Pro-mix HP
Bale of Pro-Mix Organic vegetable and herb mix
a bunch of egg shells
-------------
Just purchased shown above in pic

*Gaia - Glacial Rock Dust*
Iron - 3.28%
Magnesium - 0.846%
Manganese - 0.0536%
Cobalt - 0.0012%


*Green Earth - Granular Gypsum*
Calcium Sulfate 67%
Calcium 18%
Sulfur 13%
Magnesium 1%

*Nursery Land - Mushroom Compost*
1-1-1

*Scotts - Gardener's blend organic compost*
0.08 - 0.01 - 0.06


*Dutch Treat - Real McCoy Organic Granular Fertilizer*
View attachment 3.jpg
View attachment 1.jpg
View attachment 2.jpg


Seems like interesting stuff, there was only a few bags left on the pallet. Looked like a hot item so I grabbed a bag. I have alot of veggies and flowers to plant as well, so I figured it was better to have more choices than not enough. I think if its organic it has to be good, well that may not be true, but it can't be bad! :aok: 

Maybe it will grow some ballin peppers


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## Rosebud

Mojo for the grow Next!!! looks like some good ammendments.. Go easy on them, don't want to burn anything.


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## Shaun485

Looks great ! Would check out if i can grab a bag or two from there.


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## Kraven

Green mojo next, always love to see outdoor grows bro.


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## next

Thanks guys,

I'm a little nervous, i've never mixed up soil with amendments before. Other than adding some lime or azomite. 

I was thinking of using the Real Mccoy as like the main nute supply. - I have no idea on this type of fertilizer, I can't find much about it because just so happens theres marjuana called Dutch Treat, as well as the Real Mccoy. Can't find any growers using this stuff, should I go with the recommended application rate of 1tbl/gal? That should do the plants good for veg, and then maybe supplement during flower?

Using the rock dust / gypsum / azomite for a nice mineral supply. - They have slight over lapping of minerals, should I still use them at the recommended rate of 1cup/ft3? Like 1 cup azomite, 1 cup gypsum, 1 cup rock dust for 1 cubic foot soil

As for the compost, I didn't buy alot of it, how much should I use to add organic content to the pro-mix? I was thinking maybe like.. 50%promix, 25%compost, 25%perlite with some ewc as well. Seens how I have the mushroom compost, and the scotts organic I was going to do like 12.5% of one and 12.5% of the other. Sound like it will work? 

**edit** Read lots of good and bad about mushroom compost. Some say its a little hot, some say full of chemicals. Might have to save for the flower bed, any thoughts?


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## next

6 parts pro mix
2 parts perlite
2 parts ewc
2 parts mushroom compost

2tbl / gal dolomite

1tbl / gal bloodmeal 12-0-0

2tbl / gal bonemeal 4-10-0

1tbl / gal kelp meal 1-0-2

1tbl / gal greensand*** 0-0-0.1

1tbl / gal glacial rock dust 
Iron - 3.28%
Magnesium - 0.846%
Manganese - 0.0536%
Cobalt - 0.0012%

1tbl / gal Azomite 0-0-.02 (Just re-checked the ingredients, and it says its .15% nitrogen, .002% phosphorus, and 4.19% potassium) Seems like alot of potassium, might lower the dose to 1tbl / gal.

1tbl / gal gypsum
Calcium Sulfate 67%
Calcium 18%
Sulfur 13%
Magnesium 1%

2tb / gal rock phosphate***

What do you guys think? Will this work?


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## Rosebud

Are you following a recipe for super soil?


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## The Hemp Goddess

You are going to let this cook for a while aren't you?


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## next

Rosebud said:


> Are you following a recipe for super soil?



I took a gander through the Soil Mixes thread, used a little bit of one guys mix, and a little bit of anothers.. I got the majority of the ratio's from the first post on that thread, I think they called it "LC's Soilless Mix", it had ratio's for the Bone, Blood, Kelp, Greensand, and Dolomite. 

I looked at the ratio's others were using, and came up with the 2tbl/gal rock phosphate, and the gypsum as well.

**Do you think my current grow is suffering from tooo much azomite? The 4.2% potassium caught me off guard, I thought that azomite didn't contain any n-p-k to speak of. Potassium toxicity makes the plant unable to use calcium, sulfur, iron, and magnesium. I think I can see these problems with my clones, I used 2 tbl/gal of azomite in the soil**


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## next

The Hemp Goddess said:


> You are going to let this cook for a while aren't you?



Most definitely, was going to let it go a few weeks, maybe a month??


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## WeedHopper

Did i see a Scotts product? Shame on you. Just playen.


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## next

It was $3! Says it shouldn't be used in containers, I haven't used any of it. I just got it because it was cheap as dirt. I bet it will grow a decent tomato, just sayen 

*I'm going to leave out the greensand, because of the kelp, and azomite*
*Should I leave out the rock phosphate as well, because there is the bone meal?*


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## Rosebud

Do you have a recipe or are you flying by the seat of your pants?


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## tcbud

Long ago, I was told Mushroom compost was a no no for Mj.  Does anyone remember Hick saying that?  Never even heard of Glacial Rock Dust.  Wonder where they harvest that, Alaska?  Glacial rock dust turns the glacial rivers of alaska a creamy grey blue color.

Good luck to you, looks like you got some good stuff there.


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## next

Rosebud said:


> Do you have a recipe or are you flying by the seat of your pants?



Little bit of both.. riding on the shoulders of giants, while flying by the seat of my pants. Thats what am doin 

--------------------------
"LC's Soiless Mix #2: 
6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP / Sunshine Mix (any flavor from #1 up) 
2 parts perlite 
2 parts earthworm castings 
Powdered dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix. 

RECIPE #1 
If you want to use organic nutes like blood, bone and kelp... 
Dry Ferts: 
1 tablespoon *blood meal* per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix 
2 tablespoons *bone meal* per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of soil mix 
1-tablespoon *kelp meal* per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix or Maxicrop 1-0-4 powdered kelp extract as directed 
1 tablespoon per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of Jersey *Greensand* to  supplement the K (potasium) in the Kelp Meal and seaweed extract. 
Mix all the dry ferts into the soiless mix well and wet it, but don't  soak it with *Liquid Karma* and water @ 1 tbs./gal. Stir and mix it a few  times a week for a week or two so the bacteria can get oxygen and break  down the bone meal and make it available. And don't let the mix dry out,  keep it moist and add water as needed. It'll also have time to get the  humic acids in the Liquid Karma going and the dolomite lime will be  better able to adjust the pH of a peat based mixture too." 
 ----------------------------------------------

Minus the fact that I don't have liquid karma. As for the rock phosphates, rock dust, and gypsum. I was just sorta using general use rates, based upon what others are using in their mixes. As for the Azomite I was and still am flying by the seat of my pants, i've heard people say the more the merrier, but others use like 1/2 cup for 6 bags of soil.. sooo not too sure.

----------------------------------------------
"High Dog's method:

Organic Pro-mix Recipe

blood meal-1 cup per cubic foot of potting soil.
steamed bone meal-1 cup per cubic foot of potting soil.
*rock phosphate*--1 cup per cubic foot of potting soil. 
fine dolomite lime at the rate of about 1 1/2 cups per cubic foot
kelp meal at about 2/3 cup per cubic foot."

"Random method:

1 cubic foot of soil is equal to 7.48 Gallons. That&#8217;s the conversion I  used to make the chart. Here&#8217;s my recipe if you want to take a peek.

Vegetative Per Gallon of Soil, mixed in before planting. 
2 Tablespoons - Bat Guano (10-3-1) 
2 Tablespoons - Bone Meal (3-15-0) 
2 Tablespoons - Green Sand (0-0-3) 
3 Tablespoons - Kelp Meal (1-0.1-2) 
1 Tablespoons - Blood Meal (13-0-0) 
2 Tablespoons - *Gypsum *
15% of soil mix Worm Castings 
25% - 35% of soil mix Perlite"
----------------------------------
So far I have added the promix/ewc/mushroom compost/perlite, and I have added the bonemeal, bloodmeal, kelp, dolomite lime, rock dust, azomite. I haven't added the gypsum, green sand, and rock phosphate.


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## next

tcbud said:


> Long ago, I was told Mushroom compost was a no no for Mj.  Does anyone remember Hick saying that?  Never even heard of Glacial Rock Dust.  Wonder where they harvest that, Alaska?  Glacial rock dust turns the glacial rivers of alaska a creamy grey blue color.
> 
> Good luck to you, looks like you got some good stuff there.



I've heard mixed results about the mushroom compost as well, but it has alot of the things that my pro-mix is lacking, like humus!! I figured if you can make mushroom compost tea, it must not be that bad of stuff. I did double up because LC's Mix says to use EWC or Mushroom compost, and I used both :O 

View attachment 20150617_125011.jpg


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## next

Do I need to inoculate the soil with bacteria, or does the EWC do that for me?


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## The Hemp Goddess

next said:


> Little bit of both.. riding on the shoulders of giants, while flying by the seat of my pants. Thats what am doin
> 
> --------------------------
> "LC's Soiless Mix #2:
> 6 parts Pro Mix BX or HP / Sunshine Mix (any flavor from #1 up)
> 2 parts perlite
> 2 parts earthworm castings
> Powdered dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix.
> 
> RECIPE #1
> If you want to use organic nutes like blood, bone and kelp...
> Dry Ferts:
> 1 tablespoon *blood meal* per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
> 2 tablespoons *bone meal* per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
> 1-tablespoon *kelp meal* per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix or Maxicrop 1-0-4 powdered kelp extract as directed
> 1 tablespoon per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of Jersey *Greensand* to supplement the K (potasium) in the Kelp Meal and seaweed extract.
> Mix all the dry ferts into the soiless mix well and wet it, but don't soak it with *Liquid Karma* and water @ 1 tbs./gal. Stir and mix it a few times a week for a week or two so the bacteria can get oxygen and break down the bone meal and make it available. And don't let the mix dry out, keep it moist and add water as needed. It'll also have time to get the humic acids in the Liquid Karma going and the dolomite lime will be better able to adjust the pH of a peat based mixture too."
> ----------------------------------------------
> 
> Minus the fact that I don't have liquid karma. As for the rock phosphates, rock dust, and gypsum. I was just sorta using general use rates, based upon what others are using in their mixes. As for the Azomite I was and still am flying by the seat of my pants, i've heard people say the more the merrier, but others use like 1/2 cup for 6 bags of soil.. sooo not too sure.
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
> "High Dog's method:
> 
> Organic Pro-mix Recipe
> 
> blood meal-1 cup per cubic foot of potting soil.
> steamed bone meal-1 cup per cubic foot of potting soil.
> *rock phosphate*--1 cup per cubic foot of potting soil.
> fine dolomite lime at the rate of about 1 1/2 cups per cubic foot
> kelp meal at about 2/3 cup per cubic foot."
> 
> "Random method:
> 
> 1 cubic foot of soil is equal to 7.48 Gallons. That&#8217;s the conversion I used to make the chart. Here&#8217;s my recipe if you want to take a peek.
> 
> Vegetative Per Gallon of Soil, mixed in before planting.
> 2 Tablespoons - Bat Guano (10-3-1)
> 2 Tablespoons - Bone Meal (3-15-0)
> 2 Tablespoons - Green Sand (0-0-3)
> 3 Tablespoons - Kelp Meal (1-0.1-2)
> 1 Tablespoons - Blood Meal (13-0-0)
> 2 Tablespoons - *Gypsum *
> 15% of soil mix Worm Castings
> 25% - 35% of soil mix Perlite"
> ----------------------------------
> So far I have added the promix/ewc/mushroom compost/perlite, and I have added the bonemeal, bloodmeal, kelp, dolomite lime, rock dust, azomite. I haven't added the gypsum, green sand, and rock phosphate.


 
Why would you do just a gallon of soil mixture?  Do a big bunch (several cubic feet) and then let it cook.  I would think that small amounts  lkike gallons would have a hard time creating enough heat to cook these ingredients you have put into it.  I would also recommend adding some mycorrhizial (sp) to get things kick started.  I would think a minimum of 4 weeks and more would probably be better to let things cook.  This is not going to be ready for quite a while.  

I also would not use 35% perlite.  There is such a thing as too much perlite.  I don't believe I would go over 25% max.


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## Rosebud

Next, i think you need to slow down and breathe. I don't mean this in a you are stupid way at all, but you could have bought fox farm soil for all that stuff and you wouldn't have any worry.  I see you're vacillating between water and dirt... Figure out what you want. Organics is not easy. You don't get to just add stuff without knowing what you're adding and what it does.
I like your enthusiasm, but i see a disappointing result for you if not a lot of stress trying to fix a sick plant.  Think about what you want to end up with. What is your goal?


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## next

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Why would you do just a gallon of soil mixture?  Do a big bunch (several cubic feet) and then let it cook.  I would think that small amounts  lkike gallons would have a hard time creating enough heat to cook these ingredients you have put into it.  I would also recommend adding some mycorrhizial (sp) to get things kick started.  I would think a minimum of 4 weeks and more would probably be better to let things cook.  This is not going to be ready for quite a while.
> 
> I also would not use 35% perlite.  There is such a thing as too much perlite.  I don't believe I would go over 25% max.



Thanks for the reply THG,

The mix is currently, 3parts promix, 1part ewc, 1 part mushroom compost, 1 part perlite. Not sure on how much perlite is in the pro-mix but I should be at about 25% give or take.

I mixed up about 10 gallons worth, I have either myco-madness or Plant Success Soluble that I could add, but the pro-mix does claim to have myco's in it.

I am using tupperwares to mix/hold the dirt, they are 60 liters, is that enough mass? Also, will it "cook" if left in a 63' basement?


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## next

Rosebud said:


> Next, i think you need to slow down and breathe. I don't mean this in a you are stupid way at all, but you could have bought fox farm soil for all that stuff and you wouldn't have any worry.  I see you're vacillating between water and dirt... Figure out what you want. Organics is not easy. You don't get to just add stuff without knowing what you're adding and what it does.
> I like your enthusiasm, but i see a disappointing result for you if not a lot of stress trying to fix a sick plant.  Think about what you want to end up with. What is your goal?



I would of bought fox farm soil, but its not available here in Canada without extreme shipping charges works out to $200 for 1 cubic foot off of amazon. The reason's for the vacillating between soil and hydro, are... I have clones sitting in my bubbler rooted, and ready.. My soil is going to take a month to cook.. If I could get my hands on some nutes I could have a dwc system up and running while I wait for the soil to cook. I have net pots, medium, everything I need just don't have hydro nutes.

Eventually I am going to have to disappear up north to work, and I need something that requires weekly maintenance, or a "water only" type grow that my wife could water for me. Bubbling earth juice is not going to work when i'm only available on weekends, but a DWC system with weekly water changes, or a water only organic grow is what I would like to accomplish.


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## next

I've been doing lots of reading, and researching for over a year about organics and microbes. This is the first time I've tried to "cook" soil, other than adding a little kelp meal or trace minerals.

At some point you have to take the plunge, walk off the edge, take a leap of faith, and see if you sink or swim. I would like to think I know what I am doing, but I don't. I have some basic knowledge of how organics / microbes work, but without applying it, I won't gain the wisdom.

I made some compost in a 30gal container in my basement over the winter, now I have a large compost bin outside, and also have a worm bin over at my mom's house that we share. This is all within the last year, so once again my knowledge is limited.. its a work in progress type of operation.

I know gardening, and fertilizers, but very much still learning in the organic department. They work alot slower than synthetic nutes, and I keep double stepping, I seem to be either way over feeding, or way under. Seems to me with synthetics you notice a difference within the week, but with organics it seems to take 2 weeks to see a change, and by then I have doubled up, which then leads to too much, and its just a nasty cycle.


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## Rosebud

Well, that explains it all, thank you. I am wishing you the best of luck.  You will get it. You are right about it all. The only thing that is quick in organics is a tea. Or worm water, that you can see the next day, but that is in veg.   Mojo to you next, thanks for putting up with my questions. I just needed to know your goal. lol.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Since I am boycotting GH since Scott's purchased them, I ordered AN's Jungle Juice--this pack.  [ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CQ92M6?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00[/ame]

You will have to pH the solution.  I do not chase pH all over the place.  I start it lower, about 5.4 and let it creep up.  You will have to watch your res temps in summer.  

Organics is complicated.  It is better to use a tried and true recipe until you learn what each thing does and how long it lasts.  It should cook just fine in the basement, but is this something you _want_ in your basement?


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## Kraven

Friends don't let friends DWC, but in your case I would say if you can do the weekly nute changes she can just do the water add backs....that would work. The AN JJ is the the same or better than GH IMHO. They are made with better ingredients, AN just made this to draw off some of the GH customer base by giving them the same mix with better ingredients and a cheaper price. Cooking in water you can make monsters, here is my last DWC for reference. Good luck and green mojo bro.


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## next

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Since I am boycotting GH since Scott's purchased them, I ordered AN's Jungle Juice--this pack.  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008CQ92M6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> You will have to pH the solution.  I do not chase pH all over the place.  I start it lower, about 5.4 and let it creep up.  You will have to watch your res temps in summer.
> 
> Organics is complicated.  It is better to use a tried and true recipe until you learn what each thing does and how long it lasts.  It should cook just fine in the basement, but is this something you _want_ in your basement?



Most recipes seem to be very close to the same.. The ratio's work out to 2 parts bone meal, to 1 part blood and kelp meal. 1cup/ft3 of the bonemeal, and 1/2 cup/ft3 of the blood and kelp. Thats the basic mix anyways.. some people add onto that with other amendments. What I am unsure about is how much greensand / rock phosphate to use if any.. same goes for the micro nutes, (rock dust, azomite, gypsum) kinda unsure how much of those to add.

Advanced Nutrients are based out of Abbotsford, B.C, fairly close to me, but I'm struggling to find a canadian based website to order from.

**Should I stay away from the ph-perfect lineup?**

Is it something I don't want in my basement? Well, that depends.. I put compost down here, that was kinda stinky.. I'm guessing this will be less bothersome than the compost was.


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## The Hemp Goddess

I did not like the pH Perfect line at all.  Ordered Jungle Juice.

It could smell as much as compost--they same processes are going on.


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## next

Read alot about gypsum, they recommend using it along side the dolomite lime at a rate of 1/2cup per ft3

"I use gypsum in addition to dolomite, not in place of it. The dolo is added @1cup/cf, the gypsum @1/2 to 1cup/cf depending on what the mix is for.

I grow garlic in fresh mix to 'season' and inoculate it This gets 1 cup of gypsum/cf. The sulfur really bumps the garlic flavor up. Re-amended mix for mj gets 1/2 cup+.

I seem to have better results with used re-amended mix with my mj than fresh never used mix. Even after a good cooking period. Just my own observation

Wet "


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## next

Do I need to put a lid on it?

This is the end result

1/2tbl/gal azomite
1/2tbl/gal glacial rock dust

1tbl/gal bloodmeal
1tbl/gal gypsum

2tbl/gal bone
1.5tbl/gal kelp
2tbl/gal dolomite


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## The Hemp Goddess

I would never ever try and make my own recipe....so whether you have enough or not and the rates at which it will break down will be enough or not enough or too much is more than I can answer.  It is going to take someone with a lot of knowledge about organics and cannabis.  Keep in mind that what works for, say garlic, may not work for cannabis.


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## Droopy Dog

next said:


> Do I need to put a lid on it?
> 
> This is the end result
> 
> 1/2tbl/gal azomite
> 1/2tbl/gal glacial rock dust
> 
> 1tbl/gal bloodmeal
> 1tbl/gal gypsum
> 
> 2tbl/gal bone
> 1.5tbl/gal kelp
> 2tbl/gal dolomite



Looks good so far. You have ?? 10 gallons ??

How much *stuff* you got left? ProMix, perlite, etc?

Can you source or order (reasonably): Neem Cake, Alfalfa meal/pellets, Soy meal/cake, Pine Bark mulch/fines or Fir bark or similar? Neem will have to be shipped. Alfalfa (feed stores) and the bark fines (HD, Garden shops), can usually be sourced locally.  

My first mix was LC's soiless, just as above. It's been tweaked some over the last 6 years, but still basically LC's mix.

BTW, Greensand works very well with kelp. I add it 1/1 with the kelp. It's good stuff.

I also run perlite @~35% (sorry THG). My rule of thumb is, "If it looks like there is too much, it's just right".

The recipe/mix I do now ends up just under 20 gallons and gets stored in 32 gallon trash cans. The longer it sits, the better it gets.

Wet


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## The Hemp Goddess

The water just runs through so fast when you get too much perlite.  IMO, there is no reason for 1/3 perlite.  It also takes up space that could contain substances that provide nutrition.


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## next

Droopy Dog said:


> Looks good so far. You have ?? 10 gallons ??
> 
> How much *stuff* you got left? ProMix, perlite, etc?
> 
> Can you source or order (reasonably): Neem Cake, Alfalfa meal/pellets, Soy meal/cake, Pine Bark mulch/fines or Fir bark or similar? Neem will have to be shipped. Alfalfa (feed stores) and the bark fines (HD, Garden shops), can usually be sourced locally.
> 
> My first mix was LC's soiless, just as above. It's been tweaked some over the last 6 years, but still basically LC's mix.
> 
> BTW, Greensand works very well with kelp. I add it 1/1 with the kelp. It's good stuff.
> 
> I also run perlite @~35% (sorry THG). My rule of thumb is, "If it looks like there is too much, it's just right".
> 
> The recipe/mix I do now ends up just under 20 gallons and gets stored in 32 gallon trash cans. The longer it sits, the better it gets.
> 
> Wet




Hey Wet, was hoping you would stop by..

I have 12 gallon's mixed up, but I ran outta perlite. I know where to get a HUGE bag of it, was just waiting for the smaller bag to run out. Other than that I have loads of everything else.. 

Should I add the green sand in at same ratio as the kelp?

I will get back to you on those other ingredients, might be hard to track down for a reasonable price.

Thanks for your input.


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## Droopy Dog

Best snag that big bag of perlite.

BAS for the neem cake. They offer free shipping and they ship to Canada. But .... IDK if they ship free to Canada. Funny thing is, the smallest size (5lbs) is the cheapest. The larger sizes end up being more per lb. Go figure. 12lbs shipped=$50, 5lbs shipped=$13, so 10lbs=$26 :huh:  The neem and karanja 50/50 blend is excellent and what I use. Same price as is straight karanja cake. We call it meal, the rest of the world says cake.

Everything else should be local. Alfalfa is used both for horse and rabbit food. Soy bean meal may also be in the feed & seed store, but no biggy if you can't locate it. Took me 3 years to find some and things were fine without it.

The neem/karanja and alfalfa are theee important items.

The pine bark mulch will be at Lowes, HD or similar stores up there. The same stuff you put around trees or in flower beds and is ~$2.50 for a 2cf bag. You want the smallest size. Usually have 4 or 5 different sizes from fist size down to end of pinky size. The type of bark doesn't matter, it's usually what's being logged the closest. Could be pine, fir, spruce, whatever.

Yes, add the greensand in the same amount as the kelp meal, 1/1.

BTW, 5lbs of the neem is good. It's added at the same rate kelp meal is, 1/2cup/cf to 1cup/cf as a maximum. Worms seem to love it also and it gets added to my bins pretty regular. A handful sprinkled on top about every 3 weeks or so. Lots of information on the BAS site. Good reading.

Wet


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## Droopy Dog

The Hemp Goddess said:


> The water just runs through so fast when you get too much perlite.  IMO, there is no reason for 1/3 perlite.  It also takes up space that could contain substances that provide nutrition.



Normally, I'd agree. But, shifting to plant based amendments, very dense homemade VC, rock dust, greensand and the like prompted the need for more aeration.

It developed as the mix evolved.

Wet


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## next

Found the neem meal, and alfalfa meal, can get it to my door for $45 for the both of them. No Soy meal at that site tho.

woww, missed your last post altogether! 

That BAS website is awesome.. I added the karanja mix to the cart and it said $50 shipping! been there done that, but forgot all about it :vap_smiley:

How much of the pine / spruce park to add?

This may be a dumb question.. but say you start out with 6gal promix, then add 2gal EWC, then 2gal perlite, and 2gal mushroom compost - I'm now working with 12gal of soil for when I add my kelp/blood/bone meals? - This was my assumption but sometimes I get burned.

Did you catch that I went with 6-2-2-2, pro-mix - EWC - mushroom compost - perlite, is that going to be too much EWC and Mushroooms?

Thanks so much!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Droopy Dog

No soy, no worries.

Did you get your mix evenly moist? Dry peat is hard to get moist the first time and it needs to be moist to cycle/cook properly. Yes, the lid should be on. I have a few holes drilled top and bottom for both some air and drainage.

LMK how the bark mulch search goes and when the neem, alfalfa, and perlite get there.

Wet


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## next

I did the mix in two batches, after I mixed the first batch I wet it thoroughly, then mixed the 2nd dry batch on top of that.. then mixed the two together, rewet, and mixed again. It's been wet and mixed so much my chunky perlite isn't quite so chunky anymore

You are right about the peat not wanting to get wet, I learned my lesson and I will forever pre-wet and mix my soil before using it.

It is damp, but not soggy, i'd say its at about 50% saturation. It's still mixable, it hasn't gone clumpy yet.

I will have to find the lid :O


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## next

Check this place out, its canadian based. They have nice goodies, like this one here.

http://www.reindeersnatural.ca/earth_grow.htm

I will order the neem and maybe the alfalfa off that website, see anything else I should grab while im there?


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## Droopy Dog

The neem and alfalfa should do it.

I would suggest a dry organic bag of ferts like Espoma. But whatever you can source locally and avoid shipping charges. They are all so similar it makes little difference.

IDK about the mushroom compost, I only used it once, years ago. Made my mix too heavy and never used it again.

Wet


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## next

Thanks for the heads up about the mushroom compost, I couldn't help but add it, it looked like good stuff :farm:

I do have full earth juice line-up if I need to supplement later on, if that's why you were suggesting the dry espoma ferts


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## Droopy Dog

No, I was thinking of the dry ferts for when you could only attend to the plants once/week. Can your wife bubble EJ and apply? Or, best suited to just watering? Your call.

Wet


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## next

Oooops, guess I should pull my head outta the clouds.. Yes Yes, I forgot about that slight problem. I doubt she will be bubbling EJ.


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## Droopy Dog

Any luck in the _____ bark mulch search?

An aside, when is your worm bin due to be harvested?

Wet


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## next

I was just thinking, I have some aspin shavings I use for my snakes


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## Droopy Dog

No, it's gotta be bark, no wood. Wood chips, shavings will pull N from the mix.

I just got some today. It comes in "nuggets", "Mini Nuggets" and "Mulch" for sizes. You want mulch size. They also had wood chips, which you don't want. All were $2.39 for a 2cf bag.

This was at HD, but any place with a garden center will have it.

and the worm bin?

Wet


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## next

I was told we have to wait another 3 months, we've only had them for a few weeks. When we purchased the worms, I also purchased 4 gallons of ewc from them.

I've been busy, putting up a chicken coop the last few days..we now have 2 Muscovy ducks, and 5 chickens to take care of. But I will try harder to find some pine or spruce*bark*, I just have to drive further to the larger city.

Thanks for all your help Droopy, I have a feeling I will be thanking you for years to come.


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## next

I was reading up on super soil, and I knew about the layering, they say to use the supersoil on the bottom of the pot and your base soil on the top. They also mention the importance of using a good quality base soil, like happy frog, or ffof or a mixture of them. 

Is this going to be considered a base soil, or a supersoil? 

I'm assuming it would be too hot to put seedlings, or freshly rooted clones into. But would it be so hot that it should only be used on the bottom portion when filling the pot?


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## Droopy Dog

All I can say about SS and the layering nonsense is, I hope Sub is better at breeding than he is at soil mixes. :holysheep:  I'm not going to rant about it, other than to say to avoid any aspect of it. The term alone sorta makes me laugh.

What I make is generally called a LOS (Living Organic Soil). After the first grow it becomes a ROLS (Recycled Living Organic Soil). Easy to turn into a SS simply by adding larger amounts of N-P-K amendments and making the mix hotter (usually a bad idea).

Even mine is pretty much too hot for seedliings and clones. Used mix is best for this and I'll set aside a 5gal bucket after a grow just for seedlings and clones. It's also very easy to make from scratch.

I make everything from scratch, mainly because ProMix didn't exist in 1972. Neither did any of those other *base* soils mentioned. Thank God, because I can make better for $5 what would cost $25 to buy in a bag. To be honest, I'm just assuming, since I've never bought a bagged mix. Well, a small bag of seed starting mix 5+ years ago.

The terms base soil and SS are kinda meaningless. Lightly amended or heavily amended is much more accurate. What *I* consider a base mix is, peat moss, perlite, bark mulch, and lime, before any amendments are added. The basic building block.

Wet


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## Droopy Dog

Don't get overwhelmed, but reading the "Soil Mix" sticky at the top has a lot of good info.

My very first mix was the very first one, LC's mix. It has since evolved to very much like Vic's revised mix (post #3), but not exactly. Vic's revised mix is one of the most well balanced mixes there is. This is from more than a few years of running it.

For the most part, all are very similar with just minor variations and amounts. But any tweaks should come after using a particular recipe and amounts. You need a solid baseline to make any future adjustments from.

Wet


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## next

So I grabbed a 4 cu ft bag of perlite for $30. Checked out a few places, all I could find was *cedar mulch*, will that work?

**edit**

"Fresh cedar mulch uses the soils nitrogen as it decomposes, making that  nitrogen unavailable for the plants it is protecting. This nitrogen  issue affects only the soil in direct contact with the mulch, and will  not affect the plants as long as the mulch is not mixed into the soil."

Guess I found my answer on that one


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## next

OK, so I got the alfalfa, neem cake, and greensand that I didn't have before. But never found the pine/spruce/fur bark mulch. 

I "could" go into the bush and get some pine bark.. or even raid a firewood stash.. how much do I need?

View attachment 20150630_223624.jpg


View attachment 20150630_223635.jpg


I'm about to add 1.5tbl / gallon of the greensand / alfalfa / neem cake


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## Droopy Dog

Besides the fresh bit, cedar is about the worst for organic grows because of the oils it contains. It does repel insects (think Cedar chest, cedar lined closets, etc), but it also does a number on bacteria and fungus. Both good and bad.

In my recipe, which makes ~18 gallons, I use a light 3 gallons of mulch. But, if you found cedar, pine or fir _should_ be around. Cedar is usually the hardest to find and the most expensive. I use the pine bark as aeration at first and it becomes a humus source as it breaks down.

Great if you can find it, but not a deal breaker if you can't. I'm sure a *work around* can be found, let me think on it some. It's certainly not a "must have".

You have the "must haves", Neem, alfalfa and EWC (I use a 'heavy' 2 gallons in my recipe). BTW, I use 5 gallon buckets to do the initial, rough, amounts and a 2 1/2 cup scoop for the amendments. Make a couple of batches and it becomes handfuls and eyeballing for measuring (especially with re-amends).

Almost there!! Wish I knew just what is available to you to sub for the pine bark mulch. But still, no worries.

Wet


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## next

Thanks Droopy,

I moved the dirt into a 77liter plastic trash can, she was warm.. that neem cake and alfalfa sure warmed things up. Smelly too, a lil fishy maybe


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## Droopy Dog

That *warm* is where the term 'cooking' comes from. Alfalfa really gets things warm and if other high N things are added, temps of 143*+ is common. Alfalfa isn't very high in N, it's the other stuff in alfalfa that brings it on. It's one of my "must haves".

Fishy smell? IDK, the kelp meal perhaps? Alfalfa is also a bit rank, or I thought so anyway. Neem makes it smell like lavender. :holysheep::bolt: These 2 are also on my "must have" list. The 4th is my homemade VC.

Was this added to a mix, or did you make a totally fresh batch?  Or?

Wet


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## next

Didn't mix up a fresh batch, just added the alfalfa/neem cake/greensand to the existing soil I had prepared. I think I need to get ahold of a cement mixer or something.. hand mixing with a spatula is a workout, on a side note, an ice fishing scoop works pretty good..

I was monitoring the temp of the soil but it wasn't really all that active, I had an increase of maybe only 10degree's. It wasn't until I added the alfalfa/neem cake/greensand that it really started cooking. I'm guessing it was around 120-130'

I added the neem cake, then alfalfa ontop in the same measuring cup, and when I was mixing it in the soil it smelled.. very much alive anyways. I kept my nose away from the neem cake just because it looked fishy 

3 parts promix
1 parts ewc
1 parts perlite
---------
1/2tbl/gal azomite
1/2tbl/gal glacial rock dust

1tbl/gal bloodmeal
1tbl/gal gypsum

1.5tbl/gal greensand
1.5tbl/gal alfalfa
1.5tbl/gal kelp meal
1.5tbl/gal neem cake

2tbl/gal dolomite lime
2tbl/gal bone meal

I'm going to make some more.. this still sound right?


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## Droopy Dog

Sounds good, but the Tbl measurements threw me off. LOL  I mix up a wheelbarrow full at a pop (2CF+). If I'm going to do a number on my back and pain meds, going to make it worthwhile. So, 18 gallons +/- it is. A short handled, square point shovel might be a good investment here. :rofl: Save the spatula for burgers.

I can post up my mix, but it is all based on using a wheelbarrow and amounts of everything are based on that and arrived at through trial and error.

In a month or so you ought to consider a second worm bin. You should have enough worms when you harvest the first bin. Just a thought.

Wet


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## next

Please do post your mix!!

Great idea on the 2nd worm bin, will be doing that for sure. 

I have alot of shovels, one thing I don't have is a wheel barrow. Thought it was called a wheel barrel! learn something new every day..


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## Droopy Dog

Worms don't eat any of the food they are fed (no teeth). What they do is slurp down the bacterial slime from the decomposition of whatever food source.

Takes about a month for this decomposition to get going good, especially in a new bin, so getting it started well before the worms are introduced is a big boost. They don't have to wait around for something to eat. Once it gets going it's pretty much self sustaining.

My worms are pretty much fed just fresh comfrey and used coffee grounds. When I mix up some bedding, I'll also add coffee grounds to decompose. It's easy to make well in advance since nothing much is rushed with worms.

Comfrey is also something you should check into. The Bocking 14 cultivar is what you want. It is sterile and not invasive like regular comfrey. It is only grown from cuttings, but you can usually get all you need for under $10. Mine are in the fifth season and the stuff is amazing free fertilizer. REALLY worth researching.

Wet


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## Rosebud

DD, am I being silly to blend my egg shells?


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## Droopy Dog

Rosebud said:


> DD, am I being silly to blend my egg shells?



I _used_ to, but don't anymore for a couple of reasons. Mainly complaints from my wife and her blender :angrywife: and second, just hand crunched is too coarse to break down in any sort of reasonable time frame. Like, less than a year. Whatever the source, it needs to be as fine as flour to actually work/be effective. The whole surface area thing.

Since I now use a peat based bedding, adding pulverized Dolomite lime is easy, works like a champ, and keeps the wife happy. Keeps the peats pH right for the worms also. Straight peat is too acidic for them.

Not silly, but a lot of effort when a bag of dolomite is only $4.50/40lbs.

DD/Wet


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## next

Just checked the dirt out, mixed it around, added some more perlite that I had ran out of initially. Things have mellowed out, smells has prettty much gone away, i'd say its 20% as smelly as it was. The temperature has returned to normal.. maybe a few degree's over ambient temp. 

The texture is awesome.. its not pro-mix anymore.. it feels like happy rich dirt. I don't think you could "find" a piece of peat in there. Thanks again for the help


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## Droopy Dog

Now, you need to get a bale of Canadian Spagnum Peat Moss. Premier (the makers of ProMix), or Lambert, depending on your location.

You have everything to make your own ProMix but the peat moss and it will be WAY cheaper. The hardest thing is the perlite and the 4cf bag solved that. Keep that source. LOL

Wet


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## next

I can find those quite easily. I think I have half a bag here already.

I will definitely be mixing my own soils from now on, lets just hope I get the results i'm looking for.

How long do you figure until I can use the soil I have mixed?

One last question.. to make some soil for seedlings / clones, could you use the same ratio's but cut it back to 1/4 amount? Full dose on the dolomite lime but less on the others?


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## Droopy Dog

For seedlings you really don't want or need any added amendments, just too easy to burn the seedlings and besides, they pack their own lunch.

Depleted, used mix after a grow works well for seedlings and fresh clones. Just make sure it is well depleted. Most seedling mixes are just peat moss, a bit of vermiculite & perlite and dolomite for pH and that's it!

Here is my own seedling mix:
I use a 2 1/2 cup measuring cup as a *part*

9 parts (18 cups), expanded peat moss  (no clumps)
2-2 1/2 parts (4-5 cups) Perlite    Add last and eyeball for final amount
1 part+ (2-3 cups) EWC
1/4 part (1/2 cup) Kelp meal
1/4 part (1/2 cup) dolomite lime

That's it! Mix well and thoroughly moisten. No cooking required, but I usually let it sit for a day or 3 to let the microbes get going.

Don't add any other amendments or get creative or you'll just repeat the mistakes I've already made working this out.

AFA your other mix, at least 2 weeks after adding the alfalfa & neem, if not longer. The same as a regular 'cook'.

Wet


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## next

Awesome man, I will for sure be writing all this down on paper. Very kind of you to take the time to help me out. 

Ok, so I have "the" recipe to turn pro-mix into a "Living organic soil"

And the recipe to make some nice seedling mix.

Only thing left is how to make the LOS out of sphagnum moss instead of pro-mix. 

I'm going to go out on a limb and say this is how?

"*LC&#8217;s Soiless Mix* #1:
5 parts Canadian Spaghnam Peat or Coir or Pro-Moss
3 parts perlite
2 parts wormcastings or mushroom compost or home made compost
Powdered dolomite lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of the soiless mix. "

Then add the kelp/neem/alfalfa/bone/blood/gypsum/azomite/rockdust/greensand. Add any extra dolomite lime or would the initial 2tbl/gal in the LC mix suffice? Also would you still use the ratio of 3-1-1. Using LC's soilless mix as (3), then add 1 part EWC and 1 part perlite?

+9999 karma headed your way 

*edit* 9 parts peat with a 2.5cup part is 22.5cups not 18, in your seedling mix.


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## Droopy Dog

Pro Mix is basically just peat moss, perlite, and dolomite lime mixed at the plant rather than your backyard. 

Since you're going to be adding stuff and mixing anyway, paying extra for them to mix it is silly.

Re: the seed mix. The measuring cup is 2 1/2 cups to the brim. Some scoops were to the brim, some were to the 2 cup line, some were below it. It averages out and nothing in organics is precise. That's for hydro and chems. It is way more about eyeballing and feel than measurements. 18 cups or 22.5, it's all good.

LC's mix is where I started and is excellent. Where I am at now is closer to Vic's revised mix (post #3). Basically, LC's mix tweaked a bit.

Really wish you could find some bark fines. Some seed meal would beeeee helpful too. Like soy meal, flax meal, canola meal, anything BUT cottonseed meal. NEVER cottonseed meal.

Wet


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## next

I think I could find flax seeds at a health food store, then the ground up version is called flax meal? **My wife has a *big bag of flax seed in the fridge***

I have no idea why there are no bark fines in my area, what there is, has been colored with dye.

I also have some crushed oyster shells and diatomaceous earth, thanks to the chickens. I see quite a few people using the crushed oyster shells. I just started reading True living organics. 

View attachment 20150709_091600.jpg


View attachment 20150709_091640.jpg


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## next

Would coco coir sub for the bark shavings?

I grabbed a handful of soil, added some R/o water, strained it and had a ph reading of 6.8. Read somewhere if the soil's ph is relatively neutral that it indicates its done cooking. 

I have two sick plants that needed repotted so I planted one of them into this soil. It is a bit shy of two weeks since I added the neem meal / alfalfa. But... I don't have much to loose if the plant doesn't like it. I added another 1/2 gallon of perlite to make up for the mushroom compost I added as well. Should mean I cut the mushroom compost with 70/30 perlite.


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## Droopy Dog

A quicky NO to the coir. Also, a big NO to the crushed oyster shell. Save it for the chickens. I tried it years ago and it's just too coarse to be effective. I was still finding pieces 4 years after mixing it in.

You can find lump or 'cowboy' charcoal I hope? This is NOT briquette charcoal. It's very light and in the shape of chunks of wood. Like tree limbs, sorta. The same size bag as 20lbs of briquettes might weigh just 7 or 8 lbs.

Smushed up with a hammer into small pieces, it not only helps with aeration, but a good DIY Bio-Char. Decent replacement for the bark fines. Perhaps even better.

IDK about the flax seed. What I use is soy meal intended as cattle feed. Like, $12-$15/40lb bag kinda stuff. It's the leftovers after the oil has been extracted. If that helps with the search any. Ask around where you get your chicken feed.

Wet


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## next

found some bark nuggets at canadian tire..


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## Droopy Dog

next said:


> found some bark nuggets at canadian tire..



LOL! Of course! Everyone knows tires and bark nuggets go together like apple pie and ice cream. _EH?_ 

Just yanking your crank, but I _have_ found stuff in unexpected places.

Now, what you want is about the size of the end of your pinky finger, to about end              of thumb size. I usually have to sort that out then the larger stuff goes in the flower bed, or around a tree or wherever.

The  lump charcoal is a good thing IF you run across it, but not worth a special trip. I mainly just use the shake from when I'm smoking stuff since the lump charcoal is pretty much required for smoking meat, taste wise. Most grocery stores have it, but big box places like HD or Lowes, or Canadian tire (?), frequently have it on sale.

Google Bio Char for a bit of research.

Feed & Seed stores, or Tack Stores (Horse supplies), are your best bet for seed meals/cake.

Wet


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## Droopy Dog

Base amounts are using 5 gallon buckets.
Amendments use a 2 1/2 cup measuring cup.

.............. Base Mix............
1 1/2 buckets (7 1/2 gallons), expanded Spagnum Peat Moss (no clumps)
1 bucket (4-5 gallons), Perlite  (eyeball amounts past 4 gallons)
1/2 bucket +/-  (2-3 gallons), Pine Bark fines
1/2 bucket +/-  (2-3 gallons), EWC
2 1/2 CUPS  Dolomite lime  (*I* count the dolo as part of the base mix and not as an amendment)

................Amendments...............
2 1/2 Cups,  Azomite
2 1/2 Cups,  Neem Cake*
2 1/2 Cups,  Kelp Meal*
2 1/2-4 Cups, Alfalfa Meal*
5 Cups Soybean Meal, or similar
4 Cups, Bone meal or similar*
5 Cups, Granite meal or other rock dust
2 Cups, Gypsum

The stuff with the * is a "must have". The other stuff listed without the * is nice, but not a deal breaker.

This makes ~18 gallons of mix. I mix everything dry, BUT, the perlite. The perlite gets added last, along with the water to moisten. It takes ~5-7 gallons of water to moisten. That's over 45lbs of water and it gets heavy. So, the dusty perlite gets wetted down last along with the dry mix. It then goes into a trash can, or individual 5 gal buckets (with drainage), to cook.

HTH

Wet


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## next

Thanks,

Do you think this mix will be okay with R/O water and no additional cal/mag? I will check out the Bio Char, and probably make a batch of your mix here shortly.

The only place I could find the pro-mix was canadian tire as well.. go figure eh..


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## Droopy Dog

next said:


> Thanks,
> 
> Do you think this mix will be okay with R/O water and no additional cal/mag? I will check out the Bio Char, and probably make a batch of your mix here shortly.
> 
> The only place I could find the pro-mix was canadian tire as well.. go figure eh..



Canadian tire sounds like a good "go to" kinda place.

To me, RO water is 'dead' and really has no place in organics, unless you tap water is really bad, like over 200 PPM bad. Usually, if it's Ok to drink it's fine for plants. Is there anything super bad about your tap water that you must use RO? 

Have zero experience with any cal/mag other than dolomite lime. It's something else that has no place in organics. Hydro perhaps, but not organics.

Wet


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## next

Tap is sitting just over 200ppm, slightly worried about chloramine or what ever it is that can be used in place of chlorine.


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## Droopy Dog

next said:


> Tap is sitting just over 200ppm, slightly worried about chloramine or what ever it is that can be used in place of chlorine.



The chloramine is really no concern. My tap has chloramine and I've been using it for going on 8 years with no issues.

How about mixing your tap with the RO 50/50? you'll get the minerals you're missing with the RO and cut the PPM's down to ~100. A win-win.

But, I'd bet even straight tap would have no issues.

Wet


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## next

Plants are loving the soil Droopy, thankyou very very much for helping me. Tomato's like it too!


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## next

I got some Organicare granular grow and bloom. Cheap as dirt, 7$ for each.

The grow is 6-6-5 + 8% calcium
The bloom is 1-5-4 +6% calcium

"Pure organic-based plant food is the base for the Organicare plant nutrient system. Contains only natural, organic ingredients. Slow release, carbon based, biologically enhanced granules feed beneficial soil microorganisms which, in turn, feed your plants. The end result is naturally superior, rapid, and vigorous growth. Combination of highly active organic acids including humic acid. Combine major growth promoters like fish meal and seaweed with composted poultry litter, alfalfa meal, sulfate of potash, macro and micro minerals, amino acids, proteins, and natural plant extracts to create a highly effective fertilizer and growth stimulator. Natural ingredients formula increase soil fertility and feed soil microorganisms while suppressing soil borne plant pathogens. Non-toxic to humans, animals and aquatic species. The slow release formula prevents ground water leaching and runoff. Salt or synthetic chemical fertilizers can harm soil microorganisms and reduce the effectiveness of soil fertilizer. Thoroughly composted, dried by thermal dehydration to 9 percent moisture content and contains no detectable pathogens."


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## Droopy Dog

next said:


> Plants are loving the soil Droopy, thankyou very very much for helping me. Tomato's like it too!



Just wait till your worm bins are producing well. Takes a good 6 months or more for everything to get balanced out and really cranking, but when it does ... :farm::icon_smile:

Wet


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## next

Ok sooooo, just planted two babies into some 5 gal smart pots. I am all outta the droopy's finest mix. Do I just re-add the ingredients back into the used soil, dolomite lime, gypsum, rock dust the whole nine yards then let it cook again?


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## next

Well I did it.. added a little bit extra blood meal this time, some rock phosphate that didn't get added last time. I also went light on the minerals, rock dust, azomite, greensand I only added about 50% of what I did the first time.

The soil heated up very quickly i'd say within a few hours.. I sprinkled some myco-madness and some plant success soluble bacteria on the dirt just for some extra goodness. The heat probably killed a majority of it, but it also had some humic acid that should help the process along. I stirred it twice, now i'll let her sit for a week then do it again.

Cheers.


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## next

Made my first soil from scratch.. thanks again Droopy.

9 parts peat moss
2.5 parts perlite
1+ part ewc
1/4 part kelp meal
1/4 park dolomite lime

I will be using it to start a feminized high priority seed as well as vegetables this spring.


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