# Flower with T5s?



## pawpaw

I'm going to augment my LED panels with HO T5s.  Is any one here flowering with T5s and what (pseudo) color temp are you using.

thanks

pawpaw


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## WeedHopper

I have. I used a 4ft 6 tube T5 setup with 3000K bulbs for Flower. 6500K for Vegg.
This plant was under those T5s @ about 6 weeks flower.


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## Zone505

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> I have. I used a 4ft 6 tube T5 setup with 3000K bulbs for Flower. 6500K for Vegg.
> This plant was under those T5s @ about 6 weeks flower.


 
how many watts is each of your tubes? I see they can come into many different wattage for that length...


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## WeedHopper

54 Watts @ 5000 Lumens


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## Zone505

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> 54 Watts @ 5000 Lumens


 
that's a very nice plant for what you are running..
thanks for sharing your info.


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## Hushpuppy

Typically the 4' T5s put out about 5000lumens and pull 54watts the 2' t5s are basically half that. If yer real space tight HTGsupply.com here in the States has a 2' 4bulb fixture that puts out 20,000lumens at 220watts total. Or yu can get individual bulb fixtures from accessdiscounts.com for $23 ea. and place as many as yu need and link as many as 8 together. And they produce very little heat in comparison to the HIDs or CFLs


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## HomieDaGrower

Hushpuppy said:
			
		

> Typically the 4' T5s put out about 5000lumens and pull 54watts the 2' t5s are basically half that. If yer real space tight HTGsupply.com here in the States has a 2' 4bulb fixture that puts out 20,000lumens at 220watts total. Or yu can get individual bulb fixtures from accessdiscounts.com for $23 ea. and place as many as yu need and link as many as 8 together. And they produce very little heat in comparison to the HIDs or CFLs



Actually a 4 bulb, 2 foot T5 uses 96 watts,  and emits 8000 lumens.  

HomieHogleg


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## Growdude

pawpaw said:
			
		

> I'm going to augment my LED panels with HO T5s.  Is any one here flowering with T5s and what (pseudo) color temp are you using.
> 
> thanks
> 
> pawpaw


 
Unless one is going to be used as side lighting there is no way to augment with the other type as both will need to be as close as possible for best results.


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## pawpaw

Here is a schematic of what I am building.  All the lights are enclosed in the same air cooled housing.


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## Growdude

cool layout, just be sure to use the reflectors from the T5, without them they lose lummens.


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## WeedHopper

You get a much better Lums to Watt with T5's. Not sure ya need LEDs,,I would use more T5s..


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## The Hemp Goddess

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> You get a much better Lums to Watt with T5's. Not sure ya need LEDs,,I would use more T5s..



:yeahthat:

The 2' 5000 lumen tubes that HTG puts out are a double tube called a P55.


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## pawpaw

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> You get a much better Lums to Watt with T5's. Not sure ya need LEDs,,I would use more T5s..


 
In truth the main reason I'm using the LEDs is that I already have them. But It is not fair to compare LEDs to other sources directly in terms of  lumen values without comparing how the spectra of the lights' plot against the PAR


PAR :hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetically_active_radiation


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## SmokeMyPiece

Nice layout man, but since you plan to use all those fluro's I was kinda thinkin the same thing as Weed Hopper:



			
				WeedHopper said:
			
		

> You get a much better Lums to Watt with T5's. Not sure ya need LEDs,,I would use more T5s..




Edit, beat me to the post:: OK, I thot maybe you already had 'em


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## pawpaw

Growdude said:
			
		

> cool layout, just be sure to use the reflectors from the T5, without them they lose lummens.


 

I'm using the Sun-Blaster single bulb units.  They are verylightweight and under an inch wide.  The &#8220;housing&#8221; is highlyreflective aluminum.  At the least I will paint the back-panel brightwhite.  I'm going to do some experiments with applying some dualmetalized Mylar film with spray adhesive.  If that tests out wellI'll do that.   

And thanks,  any other thoughts, suggestions?


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## The Hemp Goddess

pawpaw said:
			
		

> I'm using the Sun-Blaster single bulb units.  They are verylightweight and under an inch wide.  The housing is highlyreflective aluminum.  At the least I will paint the back-panel brightwhite.  I'm going to do some experiments with applying some dualmetalized Mylar film with spray adhesive.  If that tests out wellI'll do that.
> 
> And thanks,  any other thoughts, suggestions?



If they are T5s, they are 5/8" in diameter--the number after the T denotes the diameter of the tube in 1/8"


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## pawpaw

Right, sorry I wasn't clear, < one inch describes the width of the fixture not the bulb which is, of course, 5/8 inch.


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## Roddy

pawpaw said:
			
		

> In truth the main reason I'm using the LEDs is that I already have them. But It is not fair to compare LEDs to other sources directly in terms of  lumen values without comparing how the spectra of the lights' plot against the PAR
> 
> 
> PAR :hxxp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetically_active_radiation



Doesn't mean squat if it's severely underlit, though!


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## Hushpuppy

pawpaw said:
			
		

> I'm using the Sun-Blaster single bulb units.  They are verylightweight and under an inch wide.  The housing is highlyreflective aluminum.  At the least I will paint the back-panel brightwhite.  I'm going to do some experiments with applying some dualmetalized Mylar film with spray adhesive.  If that tests out wellI'll do that.
> 
> And thanks,  any other thoughts, suggestions?


I use those sunblaster single units and love'em


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## pawpaw

Roddy said:
			
		

> Doesn't mean squat if it's severely underlit, though!


 
Just as lumens don't mean squat if they are in the wrong part of the spectrum.


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## Roddy

LOL PawPaw, If you're throwing ideal spectrum at a plant that isn't feeling it, you're just wasting time, money and good beans! Not trying to irk you, my friend, just trying to help.


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## pawpaw

No problem, I do appreciate the help.


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## The Hemp Goddess

pawpaw said:
			
		

> Just as lumens don't mean squat if they are in the wrong part of the spectrum.



Not entirely true.  I have seen wonderful grows where they used MH through the whole grow or HPS through the whole grow.


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## pawpaw

The first graphic below shows the relation between wave-length and relative photosynthetic activity.  I have superimposed that response curve over what I call the "wrong spectrum" and both LPS and MH spectrums which shows why the latter two are not wrong though not ideal.  The photo synthetic inefficiency of  the LPS is especially exaggerated because the PAR graph is relative.  It's actual inefficiency is closer to 50%  which is to say that half the lumens produced by a LPS bulb are wasted.


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## Growdude

pawpaw said:
			
		

> The first graphic below shows the relation between wave-length and relative photosynthetic activity.  I have superimposed that response curve over what I call the "wrong spectrum" and both LPS and MH spectrums which shows why the latter two are not wrong though not ideal.  The photo synthetic inefficiency of  the LPS is especially exaggerated because the PAR graph is relative.  It's actual inefficiency is closer to 50%  which is to say that half the lumens produced by a LPS bulb are wasted.


 
LPS bulbs are never used for growing because of this.


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## pawpaw

Yea, but its spectrum is more complicated and to say anything acurate about its efficiency I would, for starters, have to take a difference between the definite integral of its curve and the PAR curve but the bulb's curve is not continuous over its range and therefore not analytic-- so I cheated to make my point


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## WeedHopper

OK,OK,,Use the damn LEDS.


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## pawpaw

OK, but now I have to eat humble pie. Thinking it over I see that what one would have to integrate is the product of the PAR and the intensity spectrum of the lamp.  The first stab at this was off the top of my head and is just plain wrong.  But I often get things wrong the first go round.


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## Locked

pawpaw said:
			
		

> Yea, but its spectrum is more complicated and to say anything acurate about its efficiency I would, for starters, have to take a difference between the definite integral of its curve and the PAR curve but the bulb's curve is not continuous over its range and therefore not analytic-- so I cheated to make my point




I got smoke coming out my ears after reading that one....    You strike me as the engineer type pp....college educated for sure.   I watched a documentary on string theory once and damaged my brain trying to follow along......lol.


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## Growdude

pawpaw said:
			
		

> Yea, but its spectrum is more complicated and to say anything acurate about its efficiency I would, for starters, have to take a difference between the definite integral of its curve and the PAR curve but the bulb's curve is not continuous over its range and therefore not analytic-- so I cheated to make my point


 
You do know that the info you presented was on a LPS light not a HPS light?

My advice is dont get 'hooked" by PAR, so far nothing beats a HPS for flowering.


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## WeedHopper

If I could just get Par when Golfing Id be happy. Smoke from the joint always gets in my eyes when I tee off.


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## pawpaw

Growdude said:
			
		

> You do know that the info you presented was on a LPS light not a HPS light?
> 
> My advice is dont get 'hooked" by PAR, so far nothing beats a HPS for flowering.


 
Yes and yes though I had hoped that LED luminance values werereaching levels that would make them equal or superior. But apparently notyet.   See next post.


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## pawpaw

Though this  brouhaha over spectral distributions may seem academic, a rating for lamps in terms of photosynthetically effective lumen output would be very useful and a value functionally equivalent to the simple mathematical approach outlined above could be done by a simple computer program if one has and is willing to input the power spectrum data of a light.

The advantage of LEDs is that they are available in narrow spectral distributions set at the peak photo synthetic active wave lengths.  Further their intensity values are easily varied by controlling their current draw.  Thus the same unit could be used for both stages of growth.  Their problem is that their lumen per watt values are still too low.  This limitation is practical not theoretical and it is a virtual certainty that their efficiencies will continue to improve until they become the only game in town.

And yes I've had one foot in the hard sciences* all my life and am attracted to rigorous quantitative approaches to virtually every thing and I am in complete sympathy with your (Hamster's)  signature.

*But biology/botany is a new area for me.


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## Pistil Pete

Growdude said:
			
		

> You do know that the info you presented was on a LPS light not a HPS light?
> 
> My advice is dont get 'hooked" by PAR, so far nothing beats a HPS for flowering.


I get nice results useing a combo of mostly hps, and some MH, that way you get the blue end of the spectrum, and you get the orange end of the spectrum outta the HPS. As far as increasing the intensity,the obvious of course, the lower the light the more intense. So buy a good fan for your air cooled reflector, and increase the intensity.For every foot away your lights are, you lose a tremendous amt of energy that is needed for photosynthesis to take place.
i hope someone can use this advise.               Pistil Pete


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## HomieDaGrower

I went with a T5 for my veg room.  It came in this morning, and I set it up straight away.  I had started my plants under a 4 foot T12 fluorescent, and thought they were looking good.  After 10 hours of T5 veg tubes, they have really jumped into gear.  Much healthier looking, and looking stronger as well.  I don't think that the T5 would have the penetration that I am looking for in flowering though.  For flowering I will still use my cooled HPS 400 watt.  Though I might add a T5 fixture for side lighting.

HomieHogleg


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## Locked

I love my HO T5's....for veg. Like Pistil Pete said...air cooled HPS and get it right down on them.  I just don't see T5's getting it done penetration wise. I will stick with HPS for flowering and let T5's handle the veg. Jmo


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## Hushpuppy

Hey Hammy, If yu liked string theory, I bet yu would love statistics. I think the same people came up with the both of them because they both will melt your brain worse than any THC.

I could be wrong but my theory is that it comes down to energy. The plants need the energy that is transferred when photons of light strike the chloroplasts in the leaves... It is, of course, absolutely necessary that the spectrum of the light be in the area that the plants need. That is why yu can light up yer grow room with 'tru-green' light during the dark period without disturbing the plants, as they don't see it regardless of the lumens of output from those bulbs.... The bad thing with the current LED technology is that they can't or haven't produced any single LEDs that transfer enough energy from electricity to light energy(photons). I think that they are efficiently transferring what they can but they are only able to work with small amounts of electrical energy. When they start making LEDs that pull 50watts each (without costing $500 each) then we will see LED lighting used widely in horticulture.


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## pawpaw

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> I just don't see T5's getting it done penetration wise. I will stick with HPS for flowering and let T5's handle the veg. Jmo


 
I'm sorry to say I think your opinion is justified--for the time being.  I'm just too heavily invested in my current path to go to another, at least for my first grow.


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## The Hemp Goddess

I don't want to sound like a ****, but why did you invest so much into LEDs without knowing how they would work?  I only ask this because you seem quite intelligent--far smarter than I am...


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## The Hemp Goddess

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I don't want to sound like a ****, but why did you invest so much into LEDs without knowing how they would work?  I only ask this because you seem quite intelligent--far smarter than I am...



LOL--I didn't have a clue that d i c k was a **** word.


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## Roddy

A guy named Richard might even feel insulted :rofl:


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## Growdude

pawpaw said:
			
		

> I'm sorry to say I think your opinion is justified--for the time being.  I'm just too heavily invested in my current path to go to another, at least for my first grow.


 
Sell them and buy a new light setup while they are new.

But if you stick with them grow VERY short plants, maybe just flower clones SOG, just my advice.


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## pawpaw

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I don't want to sound like a ****, but why did you invest so much into LEDs without knowing how they would work?  I only ask this because you seem quite intelligent--far smarter than I am...


 There is an important lesson here:  Everyone makes stupid mistakes, everyone from brain surgeons to Presidents. Society likes to promote the idea that this isn't so to help keep masses in awe of their high mucky mucks and therefor easier to control.  Not to mention that sheep are comforted by the notion that their shepherds are infallible.

I will try to weasel my way out of at least a little stupidity by relating the fact that I initially set this up to run HPS but while working on my hydroponic system the electric company installed &#8220;smart meters and it occurred to me that a computer program could easily detect the demand pattern of grow-lights if they had data that covered a couple of grows and the demand looked serious > 600 watts. So I dropped the project and let it sit for nearly two years until I saw the Haight products that looked like they might work and decided to risk it.  Without access to the power spectrum of the LEDs they use there was no way to know in advance that they could not work and as I said in another post it looked like they might be ready for prime time.  I bought a lottery ticket today too.


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## pawpaw

Growdude said:
			
		

> But if you stick with them grow VERY short plants, maybe just flower clones SOG, just my advice.


 
Yea, thanks, that's what I was thinking I might try.


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## Roddy

pawpaw said:
			
		

> There is an important lesson here:  Everyone makes stupid mistakes, everyone from brain surgeons to Presidents. Society likes to promote the idea that this isn't so to help keep masses in awe of their high mucky mucks and therefor easier to control.  Not to mention that sheep are comforted by the notion that their shepherds are infallible.
> 
> I will try to weasel my way out of at least a little stupidity by relating the fact that I initially set this up to run HPS but while working on my hydroponic system the electric company installed smart meters and it occurred to me that a computer program could easily detect the demand pattern of grow-lights if they had data that covered a couple of grows and the demand looked serious > 600 watts. So I dropped the project and let it sit for nearly two years until I saw the Haight products that looked like they might work and decided to risk it.  Without access to the power spectrum of the LEDs they use there was no way to know in advance that they could not work and as I said in another post it looked like they might be ready for prime time.  I bought a lottery ticket today too.




Well, you at least have a chance with the lotto ticket! 

Don't feel bad, my friend, we all make mistakes and you'll have learned a valuable lesson here! Keep in mind an HPS isn't going to up your elec too much, might not even be noticed!

Good luck!


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## pawpaw

Roddy said:
			
		

> Don't feel bad...


 
Thanks, I don't, I was long ago disabused of the notion that I don't do stupid things.  I just sigh and get on with it.


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## dman1234

pawpaw said:
			
		

> There is an important lesson here: Everyone makes stupid mistakes, everyone from brain surgeons to Presidents. Society likes to promote the idea that this isn't so to help keep masses in awe of their high mucky mucks and therefor easier to control. Not to mention that sheep are comforted by the notion that their shepherds are infallible.
> 
> I will try to weasel my way out of at least a little stupidity by relating the fact that I initially set this up to run HPS but while working on my hydroponic system the electric company installed smart meters and it occurred to me that a computer program could easily detect the demand pattern of grow-lights if they had data that covered a couple of grows and the demand looked serious > 600 watts. So I dropped the project and let it sit for nearly two years until I saw the Haight products that looked like they might work and decided to risk it. Without access to the power spectrum of the LEDs they use there was no way to know in advance that they could not work and as I said in another post it looked like they might be ready for prime time. I bought a lottery ticket today too.


 
There is no need to fear the Smart Meter, imo, power companies are not in the business of busting paying customers, pay your bill on time and they will not even realize you exist, especially for a 600.


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## pawpaw

I'm paranoid and I had 2 400s set up.  But the present rebuild draws more than that.  But I'm in pain and tired of it and just want some Gdamn relief.


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## dman1234

pawpaw said:
			
		

> I'm paranoid and I had 2 400s set up. But the present rebuild draws more than that. But I'm in pain and tired of it and just want some Gdamn relief.


 
i hear you, sorry to hear your in pain.

not that it matters to you, but i run 2 600's on timers i never adjust and i have a smart meter, i know that wouldnt matter to me if i was thinking as you are but there it is anyways, i guess my point is dont worry about the power company, loose lips and odour are your enemy.


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## Roddy

:yeahthat:


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## WeedHopper

Loose Lips probably 95% of the time.

You can cover up or deminish smells,:ignore: ,but ya cant cover up a big mouth.


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## The Hemp Goddess

pawpaw said:
			
		

> There is an important lesson here:  Everyone makes stupid mistakes, everyone from brain surgeons to Presidents. Society likes to promote the idea that this isn't so to help keep masses in awe of their high mucky mucks and therefor easier to control.  Not to mention that sheep are comforted by the notion that their shepherds are infallible.
> 
> I will try to weasel my way out of at least a little stupidity by relating the fact that I initially set this up to run HPS but while working on my hydroponic system the electric company installed &#8220;smart meters and it occurred to me that a computer program could easily detect the demand pattern of grow-lights if they had data that covered a couple of grows and the demand looked serious > 600 watts. So I dropped the project and let it sit for nearly two years until I saw the Haight products that looked like they might work and decided to risk it.  Without access to the power spectrum of the LEDs they use there was no way to know in advance that they could not work and as I said in another post it looked like they might be ready for prime time.  I bought a lottery ticket today too.



Thanks for responding--hope my comments didn't sound too nasty.  I think all of us that have grown for any amount of time has a large store of grow supplies that we do not use anymore.  Why could you not get the "power spectrum of the LEDs"?

I have never even heard of a legitimate story of anyone getting busted by the power company for electricity usage, especially on small grows (say under 2000W or so).  Most people get busted because they told someone or they were careless--smell, grow supplies/clippings/pots lying around, etc.  I run 2 600W and do not even give my electric usage a thought--it is absolutely the very least of my concerns.


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## pawpaw

No problem 


			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Why could you not get the "power spectrum of the LEDs"?


Haight only provides the relative intensity spectrum not the power spectrum. That spectrum looks quite good but it is the power spectrum that tells one what kind of &#8220;penetration&#8221; the light can provide across its spectrum.   A perfect spectral distribution means nothing if it's wimpy.

Other than the thousands who read here I've told no one. But I expect my wife has her suspicions as to what I'm doing in the bathroom closet.


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## WeedHopper

> Other than the thousands who read here I've told no one. But I expect my wife has her suspicions as to what I'm doing in the bathroom closet.



Not a good Idea to be doing something like growing Weed if yur Wife dont know.


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## The Hemp Goddess

pawpaw said:
			
		

> ...... But I expect my wife has her suspicions as to what I'm doing in the bathroom closet....



 It is bad bad mojo to grow without your wife's knowledge and consent.  Your really really need to talk to her about this.m  She can be arrested too if you are popped.  This is just wrong.  :hitchair::angrywife::hairpull:


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## pawpaw

I guess I'll have to hide the chairs and the rolling pins.


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## Roddy

If you fear you can't tell her the truth, you shouldn't be doing it at all, that's bad all around! Is it worth your marriage, your own freedom if she finds out and turns you in...you know, there ARE things worse than a rolling pin or chair!

All comes down to respect and responsibility....imho


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## dman1234

What if she needs to use the bathroom.


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## Locked

dman1234 said:
			
		

> What if she needs to use the bathroom.




That's what the bushes outback are for.......... 


Seriously though.....if your wife gets pissed it is understandable. If she turns you in then you married the wrong woman....because that wld be F'd up big time.


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## pawpaw

Roddy said:
			
		

> All comes down to respect and responsibility....imho


 
I could not agree more.


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## Roddy

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> That's what the bushes outback are for..........
> 
> 
> Seriously though.....if your wife gets pissed it is understandable. If she turns you in then you married the wrong woman....because that wld be F'd up big time.



I agree....but so is having one's freedom at risk and not even knowing.


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## pawpaw

I think it was Forest Gump who said "Life is like a Rorschach test; one fills the gaps and ambiguities in one's perceptions with facts that fit one's biases and preconceptions."


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## Roddy

Hey, tell her, don't....no sweat off me. I'm not the one with the problem, just wanting to offer advice.


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## WeedHopper

Wasnt that long ago someone on here was going to Jail because his Wife got pissed of and turned him in. Cant remember what his name was.:argue:


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## pawpaw

Sometimes writing is like music where it is the subtleties of phrasing and rests, those little silences, that are most salient.


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## WeedHopper

pawpaw said:
			
		

> Sometimes writing is like music where it is the subtleties of phrasing and rests, those little silences, that are most salient.


:48: Huh?????


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## Locked

Paw paw you rock bro...when I read your posts I hear Stewie from Family Guy in my head....



You hve taken over for Aplasia as our resident Mad Scientist guy...  I like the fact that you analyze things in such detail...I don't hve the patience for that myself but enjoy watching others work things out like that.  I usually learn a thing or two.


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## WeedHopper

I think he is just Smoken some gooood Weed. I want some of what yur smoken Bro.


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## pawpaw

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> I hear Stewie from Family Guy in my head....View attachment 173658


 

Hopefully a Stewie who can more easily find his heart.


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