# So How Many of You Breeders Have Created Something There Proud Of?



## Legendary Genetics (Jun 15, 2008)

How many of you breeders on here have created a fairly stable strain that your particularly proud of. Something that you really think is unique. Describe the taste, smell, potency, high, etc. 

Sativa:

Mad Hatter aka Blackanese - African Black Magic x Vietnamese Black

I was really proud of the strain because my friends were scared to smoke my weed. Smoking this stuff is scary. Clearly very high THCV content. There wasn't too much variation from plant to plant, my friend told me I should expect a lot of variation due to the Asian genetics but that wasn't the case.

Black Magic Chocolate - Chocolate Thai x African Black Magic

I am currently in the midst of stabilizing this. Very flavorful. Hashy, earthy, and with chocolate undertones. Very good high.

Indica:

Purple Craze (No Haze genetics) - I'm not a fan of indicas and I feel they have polluted the cannabis gene pool, however I do understand the importance of indicas to many medical users and that was my motivation for this strain. A complete ease of pain with good bag appeal. I really would hope for this strain to be used medically one day. It has some great flavor and it's just a very good feelgood narcotic stone.


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## lyfr (Jun 16, 2008)

i have... two kids that are really great and dont give me too much trouble either:huh:


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## massproducer (Jun 16, 2008)

Where are you getting these seeds from?  I mean the parent strains



			
				Legendary Genetics said:
			
		

> How many of you breeders on here have created a fairly stable strain that your particularly proud of. Something that you really think is unique. Describe the taste, smell, potency, high, etc.
> 
> Sativa:
> 
> ...


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## Runbyhemp (Jun 16, 2008)

> I'm not a fan of indicas and I feel they have polluted the cannabis gene pool



Care to clarify ? Makes no sense to me.


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## Legendary Genetics (Jun 17, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Where are you getting these seeds from?  I mean the parent strains



I've had the Vietnamese Black seeds for awhile, got them online. Their 100% pure and legit. I traveled for the African Black Magic seeds. I've traveled for seeds on many occassions, usually once or twice a year.



			
				Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> Care to clarify ? Makes no sense to me.



I'll be on to respond to this one tonight.


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## massproducer (Jun 17, 2008)

online but online where? Which seed bank?  What about the chocolate Thai


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## trillions of atoms (Jun 17, 2008)

i have... and they grow around the world now from europe to china, canada to africa. i even have genetics in aus 



*and i am proud!!!!!!!!*


and to say indicas pollute the genepool is forrest gump smart.


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## Legendary Genetics (Jun 18, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> online but online where? Which seed bank?  What about the chocolate Thai



SeedBay

I got the Chocolate Thai from an old dealer/grower that I know. I wouldn't even bother traveling to Thailand these days for seeds. I'm more into Far East Asian and deep African genetics.


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## Legendary Genetics (Jun 18, 2008)

trillions of atoms said:
			
		

> i have... and they grow around the world now from europe to china, canada to africa. i even have genetics in aus
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What strains?

Since the early '80s indicas have dominated the cannabis scene. There is very little variety. You can barely find a pure sativa strain. Sativas actually get you high, indicas just make you want to sit on the couch all day. All of the bad qualities of weed come from the breeding of indicas with sativas. All of the growers just wanted an easier grow. Where's the pride in craftsmanship? It's because of the indica strains and the breeding of indicas with sativas the psychedelic highs of the past Panama Red, Colombian Gold, Acapulco Gold (I have Acapulco Gold seeds [subject for another thread]), etc. are so rare and extinct today. Sitting on a couch all day isn't high, it's cool when there isn't a better option, but Sativa>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Indica


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## massproducer (Jun 18, 2008)

I hate to tell you but it is because of repeated inbreeding that strains loose potency and vigor, wheather they be sativa or indica.  That is why it is nearly impossible to find a 100% sativa or a 100% indica.  In order to preserve the strain it must be outcrossed to introduce new genes to the stablized ones.

Thats cool if you prefer sativa over indicas but you have to understand that that is your opinion, this is not an objective arguement and as such is subject to ones personal preference.  

IMHO, indicas somewhat dominate because of demand.  Most people do not want to grow a pure sativa inside because it could take up to 20 weeks to flower, tends to grow very long and stretchy, requires huge amounts of lumens and produces very small amounts of very potent buds.  Most would rather grow a hybrid that has captured the best aspects of both sativa and indica.  You can get very sativa hybrids that have a hint of indica to help with the stretching and yield, but that will still capture most if not all of the great sativa qualities, like the high, colour and aroma



			
				Legendary Genetics said:
			
		

> What strains?
> 
> Since the early '80s indicas have dominated the cannabis scene. There is very little variety. You can barely find a pure sativa strain. Sativas actually get you high, indicas just make you want to sit on the couch all day. All of the bad qualities of weed come from the breeding of indicas with sativas. All of the growers just wanted an easier grow. Where's the pride in craftsmanship? It's because of the indica strains and the breeding of indicas with sativas the psychedelic highs of the past Panama Red, Colombian Gold, Acapulco Gold (I have Acapulco Gold seeds [subject for another thread]), etc. are so rare and extinct today. Sitting on a couch all day isn't high, it's cool when there isn't a better option, but Sativa>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Indica


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## Legendary Genetics (Jun 19, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> I hate to tell you but it is because of repeated inbreeding that strains loose potency and vigor, wheather they be sativa or indica.  That is why it is nearly impossible to find a 100% sativa or a 100% indica.  In order to preserve the strain it must be outcrossed to introduce new genes to the stablized ones.
> 
> Thats cool if you prefer sativa over indicas but you have to understand that that is your opinion, this is not an objective arguement and as such is subject to ones personal preference.
> 
> IMHO, indicas somewhat dominate because of demand.  Most people do not want to grow a pure sativa inside because it could take up to 20 weeks to flower, tends to grow very long and stretchy, requires huge amounts of lumens and produces very small amounts of very potent buds.  Most would rather grow a hybrid that has captured the best aspects of both sativa and indica.  You can get very sativa hybrids that have a hint of indica to help with the stretching and yield, but that will still capture most if not all of the great sativa qualities, like the high, colour and aroma



I know it's only my opinion, but I really think it's important we preserve the sativa strains. Inbreeding doesn't always result in decreased potency. Look at strains like Northern Lights #5. Selective breeding is key and you don't need to inbreed to keep a strain going.


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## bombbudpuffa (Jun 19, 2008)

I'd rather have an indi any day. I will def smoke a sat though.


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## massproducer (Jun 20, 2008)

Legendary Genetics said:
			
		

> I know it's only my opinion, but I really think it's important we preserve the sativa strains. Inbreeding doesn't always result in decreased potency. Look at strains like Northern Lights #5. Selective breeding is key and *you don't need to inbreed to keep a strain going*.


 
If you don't inbreed then you are creating a new strain,  Northern lights #5 is an example of an outcross, meaning you take your northern lights and cross it to other similar plants, and then backcross that to your original northern lights mother, and then try and stabilize the new hybrid you created.  But northern lights #5 is known for its uniformity, meaning any more selective inbreeding is going to almost be pointless, thats why you see companies working with more hybrids of NL #5, like sensi's NL #5 x haze, which diversifies the genes.

Also you came in knocking indica genetics but then praise the Indica dominate NL #5..????


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## Legendary Genetics (Jun 20, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> If you don't inbreed then you are creating a new strain,  Northern lights #5 is an example of an outcross, meaning you take your northern lights and cross it to other similar plants, and then backcross that to your original northern lights mother, and then try and stabilize the new hybrid you created.  But northern lights #5 is known for its uniformity, meaning any more selective inbreeding is going to almost be pointless, thats why you see companies working with more hybrids of NL #5, like sensi's NL #5 x haze, which diversifies the genes.
> 
> Also you came in knocking indica genetics but then praise the Indica dominate NL #5..????



I used Northern Lights #5 as an example, didn't praise it at all. I and none of the growers I know seem to have the same definition of "inbreeding" as you do. I don't know though, I've heard conflicting opinions on the subject.


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## massproducer (Jun 20, 2008)

inbreeding is rather simple, mating a male and female that come from the same generation of seeds.  i.e, siblings, if you create a strain, the first step towards stabilizing a strain, is to selectively inbreed, or breed the brothers and sisters together to based on their growth characteristics.  If you add a new strain during the process of stabilization then you are back at square one with an F1 hybrid.  You can only stabilize a strain by inbreeding


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## massproducer (Jun 20, 2008)

Please explain to me your definition of inbreeding


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## massproducer (Jun 20, 2008)

Just thought that I would post this article here that I found, it is written by Gypsi Nirvana, although I have sourced this from another site.



IN-BREEDING:... is the breeding together of closely related plants or animals, for example mother/son, father/daughter and sibling/sibling crossings. For breeders, it is a useful way of fixing traits into a strain, breed or variety.

Inbreeding does hold some potential problems.

The limited gene pool caused by continued inbreeding means that deleterious or harmful genes become widespread and the breed then loses its vigour.

Laboratory animal suppliers depend on this to create very uniform strains of animals which are immuno-depressed or breed true for one particular disorder or another, for example: epilepsy for testing drugs for epilepsy.....

Such animals are so inbred as to be genetically identical (virtually clones!), a situation normally only seen in identical twins. Similarly, a controlled amount of inbreeding can be used to fix desirable traits in farm livestock and plants, for example: milk yields and in cannabis, density of buds, buds to leaf ratios, rate of growth, colour, flavour etc.

...and on to..:Natural Occurrence of Inbreeding......

A wolf pack, which is totally isolated from other wolf packs, by geographical or other factors, can become very inbred.....Also so can be said of cannabis varieties isolated in remote locations up in the hills and valley's around the world that are inbred successively over many generations to create what is know as a 'Land-Race' variety or strain as say in the Parvati Valley in India with many varieties/strains named after their location of cultivation...(the village name)...

.....LANDRACE: refers to a race of animals or plants ideally suited for the land (environment) in which they live and, in some cases, work; they often develop naturally with minimal assistance or guidance from humans (or from humans using traditional rather than modern breeding methods), hence are usually older, less modern races.

....The effect of any harmful or undesirable genes becomes noticeable in later generations.... as the majority of the offspring inherit these genes....

Scientists have discovered that Wolves, even if living in different areas, are genetically very...very similar. Quite obviously the gradual and relentless desolation of their natural habitat has drastically reduced wolf numbers in the past creating a definite genetic bottleneck.

...Let's look at the Wolf....:the lack of genetic diversity makes them susceptible to disease... since they lack the ability to resist certain viruses.

Extreme inbreeding affects their reproductive success with small litter sizes and high mortality rates.....Some scientists hope that they can developed a much more varied gene pool by introducing Wolves from other areas into the inbred Wolf Packs....

Cannabis can also suffer from being inbred over a protracted period of time by loosing hybrid vigour and often developing various mutations of growth....

Another animal suffering from the effects of inbreeding is the Giant Panda. As with the Wolf, this has led to poor fertility among Pandas and high infant mortality rates. As Panda populations become much more isolated from one another (mostly due to humans blocking the routes which Pandas once used to move from one area to another).....Sadly as a result Giant Pandas have greater difficulty in finding a mate with a different mix of genes and breed much less successfully.....

Within cat populations natural isolation and inbreeding has given rise to domestic breeds such as the Manx cat which developed on an island (Isle of Man) so that the gene for tailless ness...(having no tail!....Meooow!) became widespread despite the many problems(for the cat)... associated with it.

...Apart from the rare odd cat jumping off a ship on the Isle of Man, there was little out crossing and the effect of inbreeding is reflected to this day in smaller than average litter sizes,...stillbirths and spinal abnormalities which diligent cat breeders have worked so hard to eliminate.....

Some feral cat colonies have become highly inbred due to being isolated from other cats (e.g. on a remote farm) or because other potential mates in the area have been sterilized/neutered so removing them from the immediate gene pool.

Most cat workers dealing with feral or wild cats have encountered some of the effects of inbreeding. Within such colonies there may be a higher than average occurrence of certain traits..... Some are not serious, for example: A predominance of calico pattern cats.

Other inherited traits which can be found in greater than average numbers in inbred cat colonies include polydactyl (the most extreme case reported so far being an American cat with 9 toes on each foot!!), dwarfism (although dwarf female cats can have problems when trying to deliver kittens due to the kittens' head size), other structural deformities or a predisposition to certain inheritable conditions.

The ultimate result of continued inbreeding is terminal lack of vigour for cannabis or cats and probable extinction as the gene pool contracts, fertility and natural vigour decreases, abnormalities increase and mortality/mutation rates rise.

SELECTIVE BREEDING.......

...Artificial Isolation or 'Selective Breeding' produces a similar effect. When creating a new breed from an attractive mutation....

Here the gene pool is initially necessarily small with frequent crossings between related plants. Some varieties which resulted from spontaneous mutation have been fraught with problems........If we were talking about dogs we would look at problems such as hip dysplasia in the German Shepherd and Patella luxation which are more common in certain breeds and breeding lines than in others, suggesting that past inbreeding has distributed the faulty genes.

Selecting suitable outcrosses can reintroduce healthy genes, which might otherwise be lost, without adversely affecting the strain/breed as long as the outcross has mostly recessive traits....

Most all zoos that are engaged in captive breeding programs are aware of this need to outcross their own stock to animals from other collections.

...Captive (closet) plant or animal populations are at risk from inbreeding since relatively few mates are available to the animals/plants, hence zoos must borrow animals from each other in order to maintain the genetic diversity of offspring....and cannabis cultivators might share clones or seeds.....

It's plain to see that inbreeding holds problems for anyone involved in animal husbandry or cannabis cultivation - from canary fanciers to alfalfa farmers.

When certain dog breeders attempted to change the appearance of the Pug dog so that it would have a flatter face and a rounder head, this resulted in more c-sections being required and other congenital problems. A few of these dog breeds are loosing there natural ability to give birth without human assistance!....

In the dog world, a number of breeds now exhibit hereditary faults due to the over-use of a particularly popular stud which was later found to carry a gene detrimental to health. By the time the problems came to light they had already become widespread as the stud had been extensively used to try to improove the breed. In the past some breeds were crossed with dogs from different breeds in order to improve the breed, but nowadays the emphasis is on preserving breed purity....... and avoiding mongrels.


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## massproducer (Jun 20, 2008)

Those involved with minority breeds (rare breeds) of livestock and cannabis face a dilemma as they try to balance purity against the risk of genetic conformity.

Enthusiasts preserve rare varieties of plants because their genes may prove useful to growers/breeders in the future, but at the same time the low numbers of the plants involved means that it runs the risk of becoming unhealthily inbred.

When trying to bring a strain back from the point of extinction, the introduction of 'new genetics' through crossing with an unrelated strain is usually a last resort because it can change the very character of the strain/variety being preserved. In livestock, successive generations of progeny must be bred back to a purebred ancestor for 6 - 8 generations before the offspring can be considered truly purebred themselves.......With cannabis you could say that we can achieve virtual stability after 4 generations and any further generations in-bred there-off may show some form of in-breeding depression or could even show something better!! .....

In the 'fancy' dog category, breed purity is equally desirable, but can be taken to ridiculous lengths.....

Actually some fancy dog enthusiasts will not recognize 'hybrid' breeds such as the white or Parti-Schnauzer because it does produce variants. Breeds which cannot produce some degree of variability among their offspring risk finding themselves in exactly the same predicament as Wolves and Giant Pandas.... Such fancies have lost sight of the fact that they are registering 'pedigree' dogs, not 'pure-bred' dogs, especially since they may recognize breeds which require occasional out crossing to maintain the breed.. ....and so not exactly pure-bred....

....and on to: Implications of in-breeding:

....Most cannabis breeders are well aware of potential pitfalls associated with inbreeding although it is very tempting for a novice to continue to use one or two closely related lines in order to preserve or improve a strain. Breeding to an unrelated line of the same strain (wherever possible) or out crossing to another variety (wherever permissible) can certainly ensure vigour. Despite the risk of importing a few undesirable traits which may take a while to successfully breed out, and here the skill and patience of the breeder comes much into play....

...OUT-CROSSING: can prevent a breed from stagnating by introducing fresh genes into the gene pool. It is important to outcross to a variety of different plants, considered to be genetically 'sound' .....(do any of their previous offspring exhibit undesirable traits?) .....and preferably not closely related to each other.

Question:....How can you tell if a breed/strain or line is becoming too closely inbred?

..One sign can be that the variety or strain gets more prone too disease..... Mutations such as whorled philotaxy, unusual leaf shape and plant size (dwarfism or gigantism) and reduced calyx production/size can also effect fertilization and procreation as well as growth. There can also be an up-side where the plants can exhibit new and interesting colours/yeilds e.t.c......you never can tell exactly what the plants will show through mutation.......it could be something that a breeder is looking for and is actually quite happy to find....

.....and back to dogs:....Small litter sizes and high puppy mortality on a regular basis indicates that a breed of dog could be becoming too closely related. The loss of a large proportion of dogs to one disease indicates that the dogs are losing/have lost what is called 'Immune System Diversity'. ....If 50% of individuals in a breeding program die of a simple infection, there is naturally much cause for concern for the dog breeder....

Highly inbred plant species also display abnormalities on a regular basis as 'bad' genes become more widespread. These abnormalities can be simple undesirable characteristics such as susceptibility to pests or lack of vigour to much more serious mutated deformities........

Sometimes a fault can be traced to a single male or female which should be removed from the breeding program even if it does exhibit exceptional type. If its previous progeny are already breeding it is very tempting for many breeders to think 'Pandora's Box' is quite obviously already open and the damage done so I'll turn my back on the truth!.......this is not good...

Ignoring the fault and continuing to breed from the plant will cause the faulty genes to become even more widespread in the line, causing problems later on if its descendants are bred together and the negative traits are not successfully bred out.

Talking of cats, one breed which was almost lost because of inbreeding is the American Bobtail Cat..... Inexperienced breeders tried to produce a colour-point Bobtailed cat with white boots and a white blaze that bred true for it's type and also colour, but only really succeeded in producing unhealthy inbred cats with very poor temperaments....

....a bit later on... a breeder had to outcross the small fine-boned cats she had, at the same time abandoning the rules governing colour and pattern, in order to reproduce the larger, robust cats required that were true to breed and once again get the breed on a sound genetic footing.......

..Conclusion.....:

...Inbreeding is what you might call a two-edged sword. Upon reflection and on the one hand a certain amount of inbreeding can most definitely fix and improve a variety/strain or breed tremendously to produce excellent quality plants or even animals........On the other hand, excessive inbreeding can limit the gene pool so that the breed loses any vigour what-so-ever.

....Strains in the early stages of development are most vulnerable as populations can be small and the plants may be closely related to one another. It is up to the responsible breeder to balance inbreeding against various crossings with unrelated plants in order to maintain the overall health of the line/strain or breed concerned........

...Inbreeding can produce outstanding results initially....but eventually to maintain distinct vigour it is absolutely necessary to introduce new genetic material to prevent in-breeding depression and eventual extinction of the line.......Once again here the skill of the breeder comes into play to try and preserve the line by introducing plants that mostly have recessive traits that will not dominate when paired with the in-bred line....

Source: Gypsy Nirvana


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## Legendary Genetics (Jun 21, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Please explain to me your definition of inbreeding



Family. If you take two a male and a female grown from seed that came from the same mother and cross the two together, that's inbreeding. Or close relations. I wouldn't consider a cross between two plants of very distant relationship but the same strain to be inbred. Like for example two different White Widows from different seedbanks. A very close friend of mine did something like this with the pineapple Cinderella 99 phenotype.


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## trillions of atoms (Jun 21, 2008)

to sit here and name all strians would be impossible or at least a major task for me to think back and hit everyone.... cheeses, trainwrecks, skunks, afghans, juicyfruits, widdows, nycds, hazes, jamicians, africans, dutch, canadian producers, all have been crossed widely. with all the genetics ive gained over the years wouldwide is hard to grasp to some. what are you looking for? something special that i loved?  just about everything ive ever grown ive loved for some certian reason.


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## massproducer (Jun 21, 2008)

Is this not what I said?  I never said anything about crossing two white widow from different seed banks, because that would really be more of an outcross, because although they are the same strains they will more then likely have a different genetic make up and have a totally different genetic drift.  I specifically said that inbreeding is breeding say sister to brother or mother to brother or sister to father.  And really true inbreeding is with two seeds that come from the same parent generation, e.g, bother/sister, because crossing back to the original mother or father is technically called backcrossing




			
				Legendary Genetics said:
			
		

> Family. If you take two a male and a female grown from seed that came from the same mother and cross the two together, that's inbreeding. Or close relations. I wouldn't consider a cross between two plants of very distant relationship but the same strain to be inbred. Like for example two different White Widows from different seedbanks. A very close friend of mine did something like this with the pineapple Cinderella 99 phenotype.


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## Legendary Genetics (Jun 22, 2008)

trillions of atoms said:
			
		

> to sit here and name all strians would be impossible or at least a major task for me to think back and hit everyone.... cheeses, trainwrecks, skunks, afghans, juicyfruits, widdows, nycds, hazes, jamicians, africans, dutch, canadian producers, all have been crossed widely. with all the genetics ive gained over the years wouldwide is hard to grasp to some. what are you looking for? something special that i loved?  just about everything ive ever grown ive loved for some certian reason.



That's really cool, you must feel pretty accomplished as a breeder. You working on anything right now? How long have you been breeding?



			
				massproducer said:
			
		

> Is this not what I said? I never said anything about crossing two white widow from different seed banks, because that would really be more of an outcross, because although they are the same strains they will more then likely have a different genetic make up and have a totally different genetic drift. I specifically said that inbreeding is breeding say sister to brother or mother to brother or sister to father. And really true inbreeding is with two seeds that come from the same parent generation, e.g, bother/sister, because crossing back to the original mother or father is technically called backcrossing



Alright, yeah. Somewhere along the line I must have misinterpreted something.


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