# 2 weeks to harvest find seeds



## Gonzo (Dec 22, 2006)

so this is our first grow and to get some practice we started with seeds found in really dank bags. we have been really careful not to stress the plants to avoid our beautiful ladies sproutin a sac, but with about 2 weeks to go before harvest we found a few random seeds in the buds on two plants.  Is there anything that i should do for these plants... pick out seeds while growing perhaps?  Will there be a dramatic effect on either the quality or quantity of the pot?
Any comments/suggestions would be greatly appreciated


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## Elephant Man (Dec 22, 2006)

Assuming you don't have any males in the bunch, those 2 with seeds are most likely hermies.  It would be nice if you could seperate them from the others till they are done.  If that is not possible, make sure you turn off any fans in the room, ventilation is ok, try and position them as close to the exhaust as possible.  It may be too late in flowering for any pollen dropping, but better safe than sorry.  Also, if they are hermies, you are not going to want to save the seeds...and please..do not give the seeds to anyone else.  Same with any clones.  After harvest, give the room a good drenching with a spray bottle, to kill any possible residual pollen.

Good Luck


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## pharcyde (Dec 25, 2006)

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Also, if they are hermies, you are not going to want to save the seeds...


  I thought those were "feminized" seeds when they come from a hermie.


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## Elephant Man (Dec 25, 2006)

pharcyde said:
			
		

> I thought those were "feminized" seeds when they come from a hermie.


 
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5863&highlight=feminized

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4276&highlight=feminized


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## pharcyde (Dec 25, 2006)

OK so.. hermie seeds = hermie plants.  Anybody else that might be confused should check out those threads above.  Thanks Elephant Man


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## Elephant Man (Dec 25, 2006)

Your welcome...potential of 'feminized breeding' is up to debate, but one thing is for sure...it should be only be done by professional breeders.


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## JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED (Dec 25, 2006)

if you find bannanas on the plant. which are female organs that pollinate them selves. no there not hermies. they look just like minature bannanas not like the balls on male plants. so the seeds could be feminized. this is called (rodellization method). alot of ppl think there hermies


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## Hick (Dec 26, 2006)

JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED said:
			
		

> if you find bannanas on the plant. which are female organs that pollinate them selves. no there not hermies. they look just like minature bannanas not like the balls on male plants. so the seeds could be feminized. this is called (rodellization method). alot of ppl think there hermies




  I'm familiar with Somas process, but I disagree in total with some of his ideals. Hermies or plants that exhibit both sex's should never be used for breeding. They are the poorest possible choice you could make for further propogation.
 "IF"....self pollination is required in order to further propogate a strain(meaning there are NO males of the strain)...it should only be done by a reversing of the sex on a female plant, not by useing random hermie flowers. Even then, the thought or idea, that the results are going to be identical to the P1 mother is doubtful, at best. Only if she is "true breeding" or homozygous for the traits you want, will that hold true. 

"Heredity is indelibly fixed by repetition."  Luther Burbank


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## Elephant Man (Dec 26, 2006)

Hick said:
			
		

> I'm familiar with Somas process, but I disagree in total with some of his ideals. Hermies or plants that exhibit both sex's should never be used for breeding. They are the poorest possible choice you could make for further propogation.
> "IF"....self pollination is required in order to further propogate a strain(meaning there are NO males of the strain)...it should only be done by a reversing of the sex on a female plant, not by useing random hermie flowers. Even then, the thought or idea, that the results are going to be identical to the P1 mother is doubtful, at best. Only if she is "true breeding" or homozygous for the traits you want, will that hold true.
> 
> "Heredity is indelibly fixed by repetition." Luther Burbank


 
Sparked great interest here Hick...thanks. I have alot of reading to do on this, but if I understand you correctly...

'True breeding' would imply that aside from positive and consistant traits, a female that expresses a 'hermie trait' (Soma's thing) would be a dead end? Therefore requiring starting over (backcrossing)? Or, will this trait eventually show itself in any pheno...and true breeding would be an attempt to minimize this?

I have pretty good access to a few reputable (true) breeders, and have been following their work...and your post above I believe is making sense out of some things that have confused me so far.

Whenever I have trouble understanding something, I typically look to nature for explanation...and the term 'feminised' has always seemed quite unnatural to me. In any case where man has attempted to alter genetics...there seem to have been drawbacks....


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## JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED (Dec 26, 2006)

yes,but if you have plant with bannanas and keep breeding them. they will become more common in that strain. then it wont be random. also the first year i read about (rodellization) i just so happen to have a plant with bannanas on it. they dont appear when hermies do in the early stage of  flower they didnt show till the last 2 to 3 weeks of flower out of budsite. and yes the seeds were all female with no genectic defects,even though only got 15 seeds from the bannana. it was a mystery strain,but it was some good stuff thats why i grew seeds.


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## Stoney Bud (Dec 26, 2006)

Hey folks, could I ask everyone to please use the proper names for the parts of a plant?

Using "Balls" and "Bannanas" doesn't mean anything. "Balls" is just crude, and "Banannas" doesn't mean anything at all.

What in the world do you mean by the term "Banannas"?

Please look up the correct word so I'll know what you mean. I've been growing weed for more than 40 years, and I've never seen anything resembling bannanas on a pot plant.

The newbies here will learn a lot more if we start using the correct terminology when trying to teach someone something.

Think if you were trying to teach engine repair to someone and said "Ok, now look at the sucky thingy on the top of the fire monster and turn the little turnip head one and a half turns like a clock" Holy Moly! The guy would think you were nuts!

Thanks folks!

Stoney.


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## Hick (Dec 26, 2006)

> 'True breeding' would imply that aside from positive and consistant traits, a female that expresses a 'hermie trait' (Soma's thing) would be a dead end? Therefore requiring starting over (backcrossing)? Or, will this trait eventually show itself in any pheno...and true breeding would be an attempt to minimize this?



backcrossing to "minimize" the trait would be, I believe, correct. I don't believe a 100% hoozygeous plant would be possible with this scenario. 
...BUT...my understanding of dna, genetics, and their affects on the results is pretty limited. I've read and studied, but sooo much still evades me that I sometimes doubt my conclusions. 






"IF" ..


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## Elephant Man (Dec 26, 2006)

Hick said:
			
		

> backcrossing to "minimize" the trait would be, I believe, correct. I don't believe a 100% hoozygeous plant would be possible with this scenario.
> ...BUT...my understanding of dna, genetics, and their affects on the results is pretty limited. I've read and studied, but sooo much still evades me that I sometimes doubt my conclusions.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Pretty much exactly my thoughts , very confusing indeed...we'll keep trying though huh?


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## JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED (Dec 26, 2006)

you said u never heard them called bannanas STONEY. well they are. it shows no matter how long u grow u can always learn from others. even thoses with less knowledge. that doesnt mean they dont know things u dont. i learned from a guy who ha been growing for 30years and i teach him stuff i learn. he still teaches me stuff he learns from his veteran friends who have been growing longer than him.



I named this new method "Rodelization," after a friend who helped me realize and make use of this way of creating female seeds. After growing crop after crop of the same plants in the same conditions, I noticed that if I flowered the plants 10-14 days longer than usual, they would develop male "bananas." A male banana is a very slight male flower on a female marijuana plant that is formed because of stress. Usually they do not let out any pollen early enough to make seeds, but they sometimes do. They are a built-in safety factor so that in case of severe conditions, the plant can make sure the species is furthered. 
To me, a male banana is quite a beautiful thing. It has the potential of making all female seeds. Many growers out there have male-banana phobia. They see one and have heart palpitations, they want to cut down the entire crop, or at the very least take tweezers and pluck the little yellow emergency devices out. I call them "emergency devices" because they emerge at times of stress


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## JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED (Dec 26, 2006)

heres the link to ne1 interested in trying method. it works. i had no hermies when i did it.

http://hightimes.com/ht/grow/content.php?bid=151&aid=2


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## Stoney Bud (Dec 26, 2006)

After reading your link to Soma's method, I fully understand what you mean in your reference. You're talking about the male pre-flowers generated *after* a full flowering cycle. The ones generated after a full flowering cycle are the same as the male pre-flowers generated during the initial flowering as well. Soma's article was interesting. I might even try that one day. Thanks for the link!


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## JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED (Dec 26, 2006)

your welcome i figured u know what i was talking about if i went into more detail or show you.





> Spread Love And Seeds, Not Hate Across the World "APPLESEED"


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## Elephant Man (Dec 26, 2006)

JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED said:
			
		

> yes,but if you have plant with bannanas and keep breeding them. they will become more common in that strain. then it wont be random. also the first year i read about (rodellization) i just so happen to have a plant with bannanas on it. they dont appear when hermies do in the early stage of flower they didnt show till the last 2 to 3 weeks of flower out of budsite. and yes the seeds were all female with no genectic defects,even though only got 15 seeds from the bannana. it was a mystery strain,but it was some good stuff thats why i grew seeds.


 
I will probaly never try 'Somas' method, but I am interested.
You have some very good info and apparently some experience with this, so I'll ask you..
How is the 'late flower banana thing' becoming common a good thing?  Are you referring to the process of making seeds or buds?  Or both?

Less random?  You mean her trait is that she consistently goes into 'emergency mode' closer to the end of flowering?

I assume you are talking about breeding a consistently 'feminised seed making' female?


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## Hick (Dec 27, 2006)

> 2 weeks to harvest find seeds



seeds have already formed. Wouldn't this indicate that is NOT a "late emergency mode" _STAMEN_ that pollinated the female.
Assumeing you're working with a 8 week finisher, it would mean the stamen released pollen dureing or around the 6th week.


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## JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED (Dec 27, 2006)

JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED said:
			
		

> yes elelphant man hat is exactly what i am talking about. if u want a consistant feminized breeding.


 

Spread Love And Seeds, Not Hate Across the World "APPLESEED"


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## JOHNNY"GREEN"APPLESEED (Dec 27, 2006)

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> I will probaly never try 'Somas' method, but I am interested.
> You have some very good info and apparently some experience with this, so I'll ask you..
> How is the 'late flower banana thing' becoming common a good thing? Are you referring to the process of making seeds or buds? Or both?
> 
> ...


 
yes thats what i was trying to say. if u want more consistant feminized breeding. i just think it is cool u can make your own feminized seed. make me feel like a mad scientist.


Spread Love And Seeds, Not Hate Across the World "APPLESEED"


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## Elephant Man (Jan 1, 2007)

Just wanted to bring this thread back...got some new info that is really 'layman' freindly easy reading...

_Combination breeding: The main aim of combination breeding is to transfer one or more characters into a single variety or plant type from many others. For this, an existing plant variety may be used as the recipient parent while many other crop varieties or wild relatives may contribute as donor parents. The most commonly used method to achieve this goal is known as the backcross method. The plant type in which the character or the trait is being transferred is known as the recipient parent and the other as the donor parent. For this, the two plants are mated or crossed and the progeny is screened for the desired trait. The progeny plants possessing the desired trait are then selected and crossed back to the recipient parent. This process is repeated until the desired plant type having all the characteristics of the recipient in addition to the trait being transferred is finally obtained. This exercise is known as backcrossing. Backcrossing involves both hybridization and selection_


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## Elephant Man (Jan 1, 2007)

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Sparked great interest here Hick...thanks. I have alot of reading to do on this, but if I understand you correctly...
> 
> 'True breeding' would imply that aside from positive and consistant traits, a female that expresses a 'hermie trait' (Soma's thing) would be a dead end? Therefore requiring starting over (backcrossing)? Or, will this trait eventually show itself in any pheno...and true breeding would be an attempt to minimize this?
> 
> ...


 
So I messaged my organics mentor, Skunk magazine's own master breeder REv, and this is the very easy to understand answer I got...hope this helps someone down the road. 

Heh heh, a Truebreeding genotype/strain simply specifies the alleles (2 per gene) are the same, also called "homozygous" so if I were to say that a strain/genotype was truebreeding for giant yields, then that implies that the actual gene(s) responsible for that trait/expression are made up of the same alleles, therefore, if you inbreed them that yield thing will hold true throughout all the females. So on down the line.

Hermies, are a far more evolved thingee... heh heh, hermies will obey genetic laws of recombination when it is convenient for them to do so. You cannot accurately calculate how hermies will or will not express in any generation with any math or theory I am aware of. Hermies are a SURVIVAL response, and since cannabis has not only survived but thrived, I would say it's a good one LoL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Hermies, tend to be cumulative as per what I have seen over the years. Once they reach a point of "build up" they become a whole new beast and seem to completely take over all the reproductive responsis of the plants, normally these are "naturally feminized" hermies hahahaha, and hermie as a rule always and "normally" and I call this level of the hermie expression The Beast expression. 

In order to correctly (in my opinion/experience) feminize you first have to become fairly familliar with the varios hermie expressions that will show you what level of hermaphrodism lies within; couple special tricks can always get her to show her hand. A normal, sexually normal, genotype/strain can almost always take being pollinated by a mellow hermie without showing any increased tendancy to hermie in the offspring generation. So good sexually healthy stock is a prime concern here. Then recognizing the different hermie expressions (gotta have first hand experience here because hermies all have their own kinda complex "personalities" heh heh) but it can be done really well just knowing you want a limited hermie respone once the female is forced to hermie. Massive bananna outbreak covering the entire plant within 36 hrs would be BAD LoL 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 whereas couple/few banannas on one isolated axial branch would be very good as long as she was made to hermie with some effort.

OK, hope I didn't babble your *** off there bro, but hermies are far more complex than breeding/genetic math when recombining multiple expressions. Hermies are like Black Holes in space... Fantastic power, I seen some stuff that has dropped my jaw over the years, yet not understood, I mean I don't think they are. For sure not by me though hahahaha. 

As a finale here I will say that it is possible to "breed" out the hermie tendency with outcrossing to healthy (sexually) genotypes/strains. I know it's true because I have done it myself a few times and seen it done more. It's a hard core thing to do and you need some growing space, but since hermies are "cumulative" in nature, you can reverse those engines as well 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 even from The Beast hermies, because even The Beast will *ALWAYS* toss out at least a couple fems per 50 say, that are absolutely hermie free. That my friend is because cannabis preferrs to breed normally with males (real men hahaha) and so will always keep that as an open option with a couple fems. Cuz even if one of the hermie fems pollinates a sexually healthy fem, hermies will not be nearly as strong of a tendency in the offspring ...and so on


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## Hick (Jan 1, 2007)

> Hermies are like Black Holes in space... Fantastic power, I seen some stuff that has dropped my jaw over the years, yet not understood, I mean I don't think they are. For sure not by me though hahahaha.



... thanks e'man, and thank rev for us too.


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