# First grow Need advice



## Classic (Jan 26, 2011)

I'm trying my first ever indoor grow and I've been a miserable failure.

I have a 3X2X6 grow room in an unheated storage shed.  I have 1-250 HPS and 1-250 HPS/MH light.  

I popped 5 seeds, one was a runt and wasn't going to make it.  The other 4 were planted in NK Starter soil (peat moss, perlite, vermiculite, and lime for ph balance).  I left them in the house under CFLs for about three days.  I moved them into the grow room under the 250 MH.  I started them about 24 inches from the light and lowered it over several days to 12 inches.  The 250 HPS is also burning but it's not directly above the plants.

I have a 180 cfm exhaust fan running on a thermostat to keep the temps between 72 and 78 degrees.  Due to the cold weather, I can't keep the exhaust going 24/7.  

For the first three days, everything was great.  The next thing I knew, two plants were badly burned.  I raised the lights 2 inches.  Two days later, one of the two remaining plants was burned.  I raised the lights again.  Now, my one remaining plant is showing signs of burning.  I have not added any nutes.

So, where have I gone wrong?  I did not have a fan for circulation purposes.  It's winter and hard to find one.  I thought it was mainly to help produce stem strength so I wasn't too concerned.  I wonder if maybe hot spots developed during the time my exhaust fan was off. The exhaust doesn't stay off more than 5 or 10 minutes.

Comments or advice would be appreciated.


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## ozzydiodude (Jan 26, 2011)

IMO the HID(MH and HPS) light are to hard on young seedling plants I like to let them grow 2 to 3 weeks under the CFL's or T-5 lights


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## Peter Jennings (Jan 26, 2011)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> IMO the HID(MH and HPS) light are to hard on young seedling plants I like to let them grow 2 to 3 weeks under the CFL's or T-5 lights



So what do you think we used before T5's and CFL's were out? Lol

To the question at hand:

What kind of seeds were used?
Were these seedlings stretching?
Do you have any pictures?


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## Classic (Jan 26, 2011)

Thanks for the replies, guys.  The seeds are Nirvana short ryder.  I got them because they were cheap and supposedly easy to grow.  I thought that if I was going to kill something, it might as well be something that didn't cost much and was supposedly hard to kill.

No, there was no stretching at all.  In fact, I read that stretching was a common newbie mistake and was determined to not do that.  Maybe I overdid it. 

I'll try to get some pics up but I'll have to figure out how to get them posted.  The leaves are brown and kind of twisted.  They almost look bleached.  I moved the plants back indoor and put them under my CFLs to try to save them.  A couple of them are putting out new green leaves.  One of them is toast, I'm afraid.


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## Peter Jennings (Jan 26, 2011)

With a 250 I doubt you over did it. Is there a chance you let them get too dry? I don't really see anything you did that looks too far off although I am not familiar with your soil mix. 

What are you using for water, and what was the PH of said water?


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## Classic (Jan 26, 2011)

Peter Jennings said:
			
		

> What are you using for water, and what was the PH of said water?



Tap water that sat out for a couple of days.  PH? I dunno.  I've been searching for a decent PH meter but don't know what to buy.  I have a swimming pool but I'm out of test strips.  If someone can give me a link to a good meter, I'll buy it.  I've been a bit overwhelmed trying to find a meter when I know little about them.

I wondered about the PH being a problem but when I brought the plant indoors under CFLs, I used the same water and the plants seem to be recovering.  

I did nothing but gently spray the surface for the first several days.  I completely moistened the soil before planting.  I started them in Jiffy pellets and transferred to 16 oz Solo cups.

I decided that it was time to give them a complete watering and started spraying heavily.  It dawned on me that was nonsense and, somewhere in the process, started pouring water on the soil.  When the first two burned, I thought maybe the water droplets on the leaves magnified the light somehow.  I was careful not to get water on the other two plants but that didn't work.


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## Peter Jennings (Jan 27, 2011)

On my iPad now so I don't have many links saved, but I'll shoot you a link to a good PH meter. That will be key.

Now that we have a few more details, yeah it sounds like you damaged them from misting them. Nt a soil guy TBH but from what I have seen most people like to water a couple of times a week. You want them to kind of dry out somewhat. 

Perhaps the Hamster can weigh in and give you some advice on is watering regiment. 

Other than that though, I feel like you did most things correct. Not sure who else is on at the moment.

Soil peeps?


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## Peter Jennings (Jan 27, 2011)

I'm sure someone will be along shortly who works with soil. Seems most here do.

If you want to do a search on EBay search for PH meter. You should see a yellow one made by Hanna. Get one that comes with calibration pouches as you will want to calibrate it pretty often. Just saw one for like 28 bucks shipped that comes with two pouches each of fluid.

SomeOne will be along to give you some more help.

Again, welcome to the group.

PJ


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## ozzydiodude (Jan 27, 2011)

Peter Jennings said:
			
		

> So what do you think we used before T5's and CFL's were out? Lol
> 
> 
> quote]
> ...


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## Classic (Jan 27, 2011)

Ok, here's a couple of pics.  I'm less of a photographer than I am a grower.  One pic shows a plant that I brought inside a couple of days ago and it shows some new green growth.  The second pic is a plant that I brought back inside yesterday.  

I don't know if I'll save these or not.  It doesn't really matter, I just don't want to do it again.

Thanks for the info on the PH meter.  I'll search for the yellow Hanna.
View attachment DSCF0002.JPG


View attachment DSCF0003.JPG


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## Peter Jennings (Jan 27, 2011)

They do look heat stressed as though they were burned. They also look like they will recover and since they are auto's that won't set you back too far. 

After they bounce back and are ready to go back under the the HID's you will want to make sure you have some sort of fan that can throw a lite breeze between the plant and light. Something that will go back and forth is best and you will want this to run continous. This will help with any heat issue as well as provide moving  to the canopy of the plants which you already mentioned you knew helped provide a strong base for your flowers. 

I know you said that you don't post too much but if you were to start a journal in that area you will get lots of help. Before our crash there was a gentelman who had never grow any, and by the time he finished the green thumb had moved past his wrist. 

Btw if your looking for a fan try htgsupply dot com. Home depot also carries them but will need to be ordered this time of year.
A++ help here.


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## Alistair (Jan 27, 2011)

Did you let the seedlings dry out, perhaps?  I wonder if they wilted from lack of water?

250 shouldn't hurt at 12".  Maybe the little room get too hot with the exhaust off, though.

It could be a combination of too little water and heat.    I forgot, you said that you had two 250 watt lamps in there.  Now, without proper ventilation, that could heat your space up.

One more thing: The seedling that you brought inside recovered.  That might very well be because inside the house they aren't enclosed in a small space with two HIDs and no exhaust for several hours at a time.


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## Classic (Jan 27, 2011)

Thanks for all the input, guys.  I really appreciate it.  

I don't think it's a lack of water.  My problem didn't start until after I gave them a good soaking.  They were fine until then.  That's what made me think that I got water droplets on the leaves and it acted as a magnifying glass.  Only two of the four plants were affected at the time.

When the other two started having problems, I decided that it wasn't the water because I was very careful not to do the same thing.  

At the time, I was running the lights 24/7 and the exhaust fan would cycle on and off every 10 minutes or so.  I keep a thermometer in the room and the temp gets to about 80 in the afternoons and the fan runs continuously.

After all this happened, I switched to 20/4.  The lights are off during the afternoon when the temp is highest.  The temp will get into the mid 60s during lights off.  This is where I think I may have burned the last two plants.  When the lights come back on, the exhaust won't run for the first 30 minutes or so.  This is what makes me think it was a lack of air circulation causing hot spots.

So, maybe it was water droplets on the first two and hot spots on the second two.  Dang it, I have managed to complicate things!  I'm smart enough to know to only change one thing at a time.  If you start changing multiple things, you never know what you did that made a difference.

I have a fan set up in the room now.  It's a bit of overkill.  The only fans I have are those things on pedestals that stand about chest high.  If I ever get anything to grow, this fan will be in the way.  Maybe it'll work until I can find a smaller fan.  I still have one slightly burned plant in the room.  I'll keep an eye on it and see if it improves.


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## Jericho (Jan 27, 2011)

I dont think water droplets would have done that much damage to the whole leaf. once my lights fell on a plant for about an hour or so and didnt do that much damage. 

My temps in last grow stayed around 80-85 so i doubt its the temps either. Seriously looks like you had the lights too close. No clue what could have gone wrong from what you have said you have done.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 27, 2011)

This does not look like heat stress to me.  Temps of 80 are just fine, especially for seedlings.  I would be running the lights 24/7.  

What is the source of your water?  You may have water with a high ppm.  PH won't be an issue now--pH is important after you start feeding your plants.  You might want to pick up some distilled or RO water and see if this makes a difference.  

You will need to set up some kind of actual ventilation system.  Plants need a continual supply of fresh air--out with the old and in with the new.  Just pushing around the same air with oscillation fans does not work.


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## Classic (Jan 27, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> What is the source of your water?  You may have water with a high ppm.  PH won't be an issue now--pH is important after you start feeding your plants.  You might want to pick up some distilled or RO water and see if this makes a difference.
> 
> You will need to set up some kind of actual ventilation system.  Plants need a continual supply of fresh air--out with the old and in with the new.  Just pushing around the same air with oscillation fans does not work.



Thank you!  Water is cheap enough to buy.  I'll try it.

I have a swimming pool and know a little about our tap water.  It'll range from 6.6 to 8.0 on the pH, depending on the source the city is using.  I don't think I have a ppm problem.  I put a lot of water in my pool and have no problem with mineral build up. Still, water is cheap enough to buy it and rule out the issue.  I don't mind spending a few dollars on bottled water.

Yes, I do have an exhaust fan.  It's a 180 CFM fan squirrel cage and my grow room is 36 CF.  The problem is that I can't run it 24/7 during cold weather.  I have a thermostat to keep the temps above 70 during the nights.  During the afternoons, the fan runs almost continuously. It will shut off for no more than 5 minutes at a time.  During the cold nights, I don't know and won't know unless I set an alarm to go look.  I've been out at 10 pm in 25 degree weather and the fan is running.

My storage shed is unheated but it's a brick shed with plywood walls.  No insulation but there is some degree of insulation there.  With the lights running and the exhaust in the room, the temps don't get much lower than the 40s.


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## Wetdog (Jan 27, 2011)

Worse, but they sorta look like mine when they grow into the T-5's I use.:doh: 

I'm thinking heat/light burn more than anything, just because of the way they greened up so nice when put back under the cfl's.

I'd not change anything and leave them under the cfl's for a bit and see what happens.

Too many fixes/solutions at once can just create problems.

Wet


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## Classic (Jan 27, 2011)

Wetdog said:
			
		

> Too many fixes/solutions at once can just create problems.
> 
> Wet


I agree with this.  It works this way with everything in life.  Too many changes and you have no idea what did or did not work.

For now, I have flushed them with distilled water and they are happily sitting outside in the 65 degree sunshine.  I think three of them are going to make it.  At this point, I don't care too much about what happens with these plants.  I have several more germinating.  I only want to figure it out so I don't do it again.

On the bright side, I was 5 for 5 on germinating this set!  Silly me, I thought that would be the hard part.


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## Classic (Jan 27, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> What is the source of your water?  You may have water with a high ppm.  PH won't be an issue now--pH is important after you start feeding your plants.  You might want to pick up some distilled or RO water and see if this makes a difference.



I picked up a swimming pool test kit.  My water pH is 7.8.  Total hardness is 100 ppm.  Total alkalinity is 60 ppm.

I know the pH is high.  I don't know how to judge the other numbers.  Is this bad enough to cause my problem?


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## Wetdog (Jan 28, 2011)

Classic said:
			
		

> I picked up a swimming pool test kit.  My water pH is 7.8.  Total hardness is 100 ppm.  Total alkalinity is 60 ppm.
> 
> I know the pH is high.  I don't know how to judge the other numbers.  Is this bad enough to cause my problem?



No, 100PPM is fine. 7.8 is a bit high

My pH usually drops after the water sits out a day and seems to drop more when I use the drops to remove the chloramine.

Drops are the ones for use in aquariums. 1 drop/gallon of water.

Wet


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## Classic (Jan 29, 2011)

Thanks, Wetdog.  This water had been sitting out for several days.  I can figure out how to lower the pH.  For now, I have several gallons of distilled water.

I've been looking at my temps.  My thermostat and thermometer were in the top of the grow room and everything was set to keep the temps between 72 and 78.

I moved the thermometer to the bottom of the room, under the lights.  With the exhaust fan off, the temp readings were near 100.  The thermometer was picking up air temp plus the radiant heat from the lights.  So, I now have the exhaust fan running 24/7 and I have a small fan for circulation.  I have one plant in the grow room now and it seem to be Ok.

Here's my question.  This morning, the temp is 80 degrees at the bottom.  When I put the thermostat behind the mylar to block the radiant heat, it reads about 55.  So, what does the plant care about?  The weather has been mild lately but when a cold front hits (in a few days), the air temp will be much lower than 55.


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## woodydude (Jan 29, 2011)

The plant cares about the temp it is in, not the one behind the mylar.
I would suggest putting the thermometer or thermostat in amongst the plants, thats the temp you, and they are interested in. I have one taped to a cane that sits at canopy height in my flowering room.
Try to set your circulation fan so it is blowing across the top of your canopy. Someone once told me that if the canopy should be constantly moving, strenghens stems and circulates air, sounded good to me.
Peace
Woody


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## Rosebud (Jan 29, 2011)

Classic, 
Don't give up, you really put a lot of thinking and work into your new grow. You will get it. The only thing I can add is that too much water and not enough water look the same. I would let them dry out a little, meaning when you stick your finger in the pot you don't feel moisture till your up to your knuckle. 
Hang in there, you are doing fine, it will get better.


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## Classic (Jan 29, 2011)

woodydude said:
			
		

> The plant cares about the temp it is in, not the one behind the mylar.
> I would suggest putting the thermometer or thermostat in amongst the plants, thats the temp you, and they are interested in. I have one taped to a cane that sits at canopy height in my flowering room.
> Try to set your circulation fan so it is blowing across the top of your canopy. Someone once told me that if the canopy should be constantly moving, strenghens stems and circulates air, sounded good to me.
> Peace
> Woody



Thanks, Woody.  I'm about to conclude that my problem was in putting the thermostat in the top of the room.  Heat rises, you know?  I forgot about the radiant heat.  I'm going to move the thermostat below the lights and see what happens.  Thankfully, we're having wonderful 70 degree sunshine these days.  My plants are happily outside while I experiment with the room.



			
				Rosebud said:
			
		

> Classic,
> Don't give up, you really put a lot of thinking and work into your new  grow. You will get it..


Thanks for the kind words.  I'm an engineer.  I'm afraid that over thinking is part of my problem.


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