# Choosing males for breeding...



## Elephant Man

There have been alot of theories on how this is done....this is only one of them, but happens to be the one I agree with.

Dunno who wrote this, I found it on another forum...just posting it because it sums up my methods better than I could.



> Male Cannabis 
> The male cannabis plant is essentially only useful for breeding.
> The male plant makes very poor marijuana, being mostly leaves without the dense resinous floral clusters of the female the yield is miserable.
> 
> More importantly, the male of the species has virtually no potency in comparison to that of female cannabis.
> The males do carry genes that influence the expression of ALL the traits listed above, but not many of them are directly observable in the male itself due to the male phenotype being markedly different from the female phenotype.
> 
> A male cannabis plants value is DEFINED by the quality of his daughters.
> 
> Naturally, when starting out with a large number of potential breeding individuals, one desires to weed out the undesirable individuals.
> 
> The female is easy to evaluate because all the traits favoring marijuana production are directly observable in the female.
> It's a simple matter of growing & flowering the females to grade their performance and smoking the resulting marijuana.
> 
> The breeder then chooses only those females most closely matching the breeder's personal ideal to be used as seed parents.
> 
> The directly observable & important traits of male cannabis are as follows:
> 
> 1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
> 2. Vigor
> 3. Stature
> 4. Maturation rate
> 
> All males expressing poor quality in any of these traits should be culled so as not to pass the weak trait on to the progeny.
> 
> Males are also be observed to have a certain scent and floral structure but the importance of these traits pale in comparison to those listed.
> 
> The potency of male plants, and especially the potency difference between individual males in a group, is generally too subtle to be measured by anything short of professional scientific laboratory equipment.
> Moreover, there is no conclusive proof that the most potent male in a group actually creates the most potent female progeny, although it seems intuitive that that should be the case. The difficulty of determining a male plant's potency is a major hurdle to proving this link.
> 
> Thankfully, logic dictates that the potency of a male plant ITSELF isnt very important, as we arent interested in growing males for marijuana production.
> 
> The value of a male lies entirely in the traits he consistently passes on to his daughters.
> 
> Therefore its unnecessary to identify the one male amongst a group of potential pollen donors with the greatest potency.
> 
> Its far more logical to evaluate the female progeny of each male to define the potency of each male in the group.
> 
> Male cannabis individuals may be graded for quality by a controlled pollination of IDENTICAL female clones (one for each pollen donor).
> 
> This isolates the influence of the male by holding CONSTANT the influence of the female on each cross.
> 
> The seeds resulting from each clone are then grown and the progeny is graded to determine which of the crosses was the most successful.
> 
> When the group with the most desirable female progeny is identified, the responsible male has been identified as the most valuable.
> 
> Males can be kept in the vegetative state exactly like female mother plants, except that we should call them dads of course.
> 
> Clones from the favored male can be flowered as needed along with the breeding female(s) when seeds are desired.
> 
> Due to the clandestine nature of marijuana growing, in most cases there will only be about 10 males to be evaluated after culling all those with directly observable defects.
> 
> Breeding with larger populations is always preferable, as genetics is a statistical "game".
> 
> Commercial breeders would clearly benefit from the development of a reliable method of identifying males with the greatest potential for passing on high potency genes.
> 
> Perhaps someone will do the necessary research someday, but by following the above method, growers can accurately pin-point the ONE male in their small group which is the most potent...in the only meaningful sense of male potency.


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## Hick

> Due to the clandestine nature of marijuana growing, in most cases there will only be about 10 males to be evaluated after culling all those with directly observable defects.
> 
> Breeding with larger populations is always preferable, as genetics is a statistical "game".


   "IMHO".. _there_ lies the "clinker" .. not many of us, have the facility, or can accomodate, sufficient "numbers" for a proper selection process. _Especially_ for males. An 'isolation' chamber of sorts, to fully grow and mature a large number of males to "select" from.

    Thanks o' long nosed wise one...


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## Mutt

> 1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
> 2. Vigor
> 3. Stature
> 4. Maturation rate


 
I get 1-3 but 4....is the report saying to pick fast maturing males? or slow? As in how long it takes to show sex and show signs of maturity.


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## Pot Belly

Mutt said:
			
		

> I get 1-3 but 4....is the report saying to pick fast maturing males? or slow? As in how long it takes to show sex and show signs of maturity.


 
Hey Mutt - I interpret the article and #4 this way: The male _is_ a good one, _if _the female offspring shows the proper female maturation rate the breeder is looking for. One male's genetics may extend the flowering time by two weeks which would not match "my" requirements of an 8 week maturation rate. The other male's genetics does give us the 8 week rate. This is the male I want to use for further breeding experiments.

I always wondered how you pick a "potent" male or one that has the flowering or other qualities that would be desirable. One has no idea until the male plant's "daughter" makes a bud preferable to what the breeder is trying to isolate.

Thanks Elephant Man! :aok:


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## Mutt

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> I always wondered how you pick a "potent" male or one that has the flowering or other qualities that would be desirable. One has no idea until the male plant's "daughter" makes a bud preferable to what the breeder is trying to isolate.


 
On several articles in my archives...it is recommended to do a smoke test on the male tips. Just as a sample. I do think a certain degree of potency can be checked...not nec. get you high...but with right pallette and clear mind could after while tune this in. This is not meant as smoking males as meds...but learning your own pallette and letting the plant speak if ya get what I mean.

Thanks PB for clearing up the "maturity" time...so its basically picking out what you want dominant in the traits. but the 8 week thing seems to be almost isolating hybrid traits and making a less sativa dom. hybrid. Which shortening up the flower time in the selection "might" not be what the breeder wants in the end product.


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## jjsunderground

im actually starting a grow right now where i  will be doing some pollinating. like the essay says dont dismiss underlyinig traits like listed. ive been mostly selective on how the plant looks to me. basically the leafs. some are really lush and some are long and thin. i happen to like the thin old school look of the thin leaves. though i have no results yet on how these plants yield. but these are to me noticable genetics that could be isolated and stabilized. right now i am starting a grow where i am using the 8 best seeds out of probably 400 or more. these seeds are nice and plump with brown shell and dark black veins. im hoping i can get enough diversity to find some of the qualities i desire with the seed quality as well.

 though i did overlook the males which this essay has redirected my attention to. so ill look for dense clusters of male flowers, growth rate, leaf structure and what ever else i may find attractive! :aok:

 but like hick said it is hard to find diversity in such limited stock.


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## Elephant Man

> by Hick
> "IMHO".. there lies the "clinker" .. not many of us, have the facility, or can accomodate, sufficient "numbers" for a proper selection process. Especially for males. An 'isolation' chamber of sorts, to fully grow and mature a large number of males to "select" from.



I couldn't agree more.  In actuality, breeding in small populations or (even worse) with single males (1:1) could be said to be killing the mj gene pool one allele at a time.



> by Mutt
> I get 1-3 but 4....is the report saying to pick fast maturing males? or slow? As in how long it takes to show sex and show signs of maturity.



The report is saying not to pick males at all...but pick their daughters.    The report is saying a male can only be graded by his prodigy.  After all, we are breeding for desirable fems...not males.



> by Mutt
> On several articles in my archives...it is recommended to do a smoke test on the male tips. Just as a sample. I do think a certain degree of potency can be checked...not nec. get you high...but with right pallette and clear mind could after while tune this in. This is not meant as smoking males as meds...but learning your own pallette and letting the plant speak if ya get what I mean.



There is absolutely no proven connection with potent males having potent daughters.  Potent males can create worthless females and vice versa and culling males on this criteria only decreases your gene pool and ends otherwise possible recombinations.



> by jjsunderground
> 
> but like hick said it is hard to find diversity in such limited stock.



Space < time....I imagine it could be done with clones and one male at a time, but you might see how long this could take....point is it could be done though.


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## trillions of atoms

i have to agree with a few things but others need tweaking in my eye


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## joe19406

just to let you know i have my PHD in THC


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## Runbyhemp

Good for you Joe


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## That crazy vancouver guy

...my blood is saturated with THC....


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## moaky

when breeding is it best to use a smaller pot so your plants don't get to huge while your waiting for the offspring to give you results?  dot as powerful lights?  i mean by the time you get the first result your original mother is going to be huge. never mind.  if its the one you like then your probably taking cuts from it.


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## Mutt

moaky said:
			
		

> when breeding is it best to use a smaller pot so your plants don't get to huge while your waiting for the offspring to give you results?  dot as powerful lights?  i mean by the time you get the first result your original mother is going to be huge. never mind.  if its the one you like then your probably taking cuts from it.



You want the parents to acheive as much growth as possible IMO to show full pheno expression. Smaller pots IME tend to create less branching and some stretch which is a product of enviro not a product of phenotype or genotype expression. It will fool you i think.


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## Thailord

Mutt said:
			
		

> You want the parents to acheive as much growth as possible IMO to show full pheno expression. Smaller pots IME tend to create less branching and some stretch *which is a product of enviro not a product of phenotype *or genotype expression. It will fool you i think.


 

Genotype cannot be influenced.  Phenotype is a result of 50% environment, and 50% Genotype.  Therefore, Phenotypes can be influenced by environment, where Genotypes cannot.  It is the exact reason different growers have different results w/ like strains.

You can also clone males.  Which is what I do.  I watch the characteristics of the plants I'm growing from germination thru preflower.  I select males which possess the characteristics I'm seeking.  Early flowering males are often less desireable due to the fact that the strongest males often show sex first, which IMO means they carry more male chromosomes.  

When I take my cuts, I look at the stem structure, it is well known to experienced breeders that a more hollow stem usually is more productive.  Hollow stems are more characteristic to drug type cannabis, where pithy stems often mean a more hemp type cannabis.  I number these cuts to the male they were taken from and cull the males.  As they mature more I eliminate those which do not possess the traits I seek.  
I select by these traits:

1. Structure
2. Vigor
3. Cluster density
4. Scent

We all have our own techniques for male selection, and often, most growers do not have the space nor want to take the time to grow out males.  Clone only mothers are often used, which IMHO is killing off the gene pool.  The thing to remember is that we never know the full potential of a given strain if one specific pheno is isolated.  In large populations of cannabis, we can find some variation among the same given strain from the same seed stock, therefore by finding one unique pheno and making it clone only is hindering any possiblities of find what the true potential of this strain could be.  

Male selection is important, however we must realize that preserving various true breeding land races and your more stable true breeding hybrids for they are the foundation of what we have today.  Also remember, many strains are the same, only renamed by clone only breeders by the unique phenotypes they possess.

This is a very important, and informative thread which I enjoy very much for learning is something I will always desire to improve my growing and breeding.


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## frosty green thumb

I think u take the fast growing biggest  male and flower it ur onlt looking @ it all the time i vege my seeds intill i see witch is male last run i took the shortest stalkyest male have seeded with him yet got a killer pheno female though


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## Hick

hmmm.. Since 50% of your genetic contribution will come directly from the male, doesn't it only makes 'good sense',.. to use _just as much_ care, discretion, in it's selection as you would your female.?


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## 4u2sm0ke

:yeahthat:

IMO   the MALE  is the Most important in a breeding program.....The Dankiest the MAle...makes the DAnkiest beans...just my thaughts


take care and be safe:bolt::bong:


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## atticman

Are people looking at branch structure or stem size in the males?  I breed other plants, and this seems pretty important to support heavier buds...


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## orangesunshine

i miss hick---imho 4u too pretty much sums it up with the dankiest males crossed with the dankiest females is a good bet to get the dankiest offspring


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## Dunbar

very detailed topic... you can find it through internet browser. google can provide you most beneficial infomation.
visit link!


https://www.tumblr.com/search/breeding male


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## RonnieB

This may not apply here but this guy is an up and coming legend and here's his input


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## stew

I have no use for the Y chromosome in my cannabis breeding programs.  I want to choose both parents based on their flower characteristics.  The best male is no male.  Girl on Girl is where it's at.  Just my opinion, my apologies to all the dicks and nanners out there.


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## Carty

It's simple..  2 ways I make seeds.. not  gonna say breed because I'm not a breeder, just a pollen slinger who likes to have some fun..

1..  Use multiple males in order to pass along as much of the genetic  profile of both genetics.  
this is perfect if your goal is to grow out F2 stock to search for keeper females to work further.. F2 seems
to give out the biggest pheno differentiation..  

2..  One of One..  in this I look for a male very early on inspecting the stems and calyx's for early trichome development and odor.  I want the stinkiest male with the most early trichome development..  so decided very early on..

great shared info here...thanks for all the inputs, found it interesting..


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## joeb631

No wonder why I was never picked .....


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