# Reasons for Ph Swing



## RatherBBurnin (Jun 20, 2007)

I read my ph its 5.5... check it later that night.. its almost 7.0... i was using a combo of ph down drops..and lemon juice to adjust.... i think i am going to swap out my solution after only 4 days... and go buy some ph down in crystal format??? any other suggestions on a possible reason for all the ph swing.. and a method to stick to... im thinking start with ph 5.5.. check every second day.. adjust if needed??? i know adjusting ph too much is bad...


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## Mutt (Jun 20, 2007)

What nutrients are you using? Most have PH buffers in and normal tap water should be ok. I know Gen. Hydro and Dyna-Grow have a PH buffer and I never had a need to mess with the PH.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 20, 2007)

im using DNF nutes.. at like 1/4 strength......


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## Mutt (Jun 20, 2007)

check your PM box.


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## MJ20 (Jun 20, 2007)

Try high % phosphoric acid.I've used the fish tanks PHDown also but it takes alot to get a 6 unit 16gal tub down.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 20, 2007)

Well i decided that i would change out my solution and i figured i should repot the clones and bit deeper and check their root growth... I open the first DWC only to find it has mad algae in it.. and my rooms have this gross looking brown sludge at the bottom.. so i basically as careful as possible got rid of all the rockwool... then placed the roots into a new fresh rockwool cube.. by cutting down the middle... repotted them.. cleaned the tub.. replaced a broken airstone.. and we are set... 

But get this.. I have ph balanced water 7.0. I add my nutes... and it shows a ph of 3.5.. so  i used ph up to bring it up to 5.5... but isnt it weird that my nutes made the ph go down that far??? 

Also.. do you think two air stones will be suffice for a three plant little system i use to start seedlings???


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## Mutt (Jun 20, 2007)

Is any light getting to the rez? when ever light got to my rez, algae just went crazy on me. but as far as the PH swing, I never had to deal with it as I used PH buffered nutes. I like life easy.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 20, 2007)

I dont think any light was getting in.. but it was a lighter colored plastic rubbermaid.. so i have already switched it out for a darker one.. just incase that was the problem.. i think the problem was i got the clones in dirt,,,well the rockwool was in the dirt.. but the roots were barely through.. so some dirt might have got into the res..


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## KADE (Jun 20, 2007)

Well crap... i've been gone for a bit.. but i'm back.. and better then ever.. =)

I use DNF, once i tried that brand once I was hooked.... I'm not quite sure *** the whole buffered nutes thing is. As all the hydro nutes around here have salts left and right and when added to water will drop the PH... 

BBurnin, PH swings are not nute related...  as water is used faster then nutes... you can expect the ph of the solution to go down... but thas just cuz there is less water...    
Ph will go up.. if there is algae growth or rapid root growth... if not, then it should go down like usual as water is used up faster then the nutes.


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## Mutt (Jun 20, 2007)

KADE said:
			
		

> I use DNF, once i tried that brand once I was hooked.... I'm not quite sure *** the whole buffered nutes thing is. As all the hydro nutes around here have salts left and right and when added to water will drop the PH...


 
Welcome back Kade...thought I'd put this in so its clear where I was coming from.



> This invention provides pH buffered plant nutrient compositions, methods for fertilizing a plant growing or a seed germinating in a hydroponics system, methods for growing a plant in a hydroponics system, and methods for making a pH buffered plant nutrient composition. The compositions and methods of this invention are useful with distilled water, deionized water, filtered water, and United States municipal tap water. The compositions and methods of this invention are useful with most of the municipal water supplies in the United States. pH buffering agents useful in the practice of this invention include phosphate buffers, aquarium buffers, 2-[N-morpholino]ethanesulfonic acid, and mixtures thereof.


 
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20060254332.html

Gen Hydro and Dyna grow (off the top of my head) have the PH buffer already added for people like me that don't like to screw around with stuff.

Oh and BTW RatherBburnin...Kade is very very knowledgable in Hydro.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 20, 2007)

So i am to assume that my nutes have a buffer added.. and because i am using bottled water.. and its mixed to lower tap water.. is the reason my ph goes from 7.0.... to 3.5 after i add my nutes???? this isnt over time.. its over the period of mixing the nutes in... and should i be adjusting it back to 5.5... ive duct taped the holes where the airline enters... i might just duct tape the sides of the bid as well just to keep it air tight... good idea or bad idea???


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## KADE (Jun 21, 2007)

I heard back in the day about buffered or not nutes... but i've never seen nething labelled... so it must all basically be now...

Yeah, I have good well water... around 7.4-7.8 (depending on what time of year) When I add the bloom A+B, DNF black/gold, bloom enhancer it drops my ph (in 60 liters) down to 5.8... perfect for blooming.... In your case you'll need to bring it up a bit...  
Veg from 5.8-6.2 Bloom from 5.6-5.8 with dnf.

When adding water or nutes... Make sure pumps are off... and balance you res as a whole... not being pumped around.... and then bring your nutrient solution to what ph it needs to be.

BTW My res is wide open to the room... it sits on the floor under my table open to the ambient light. I don't get any clogs in sprayers or drip stakes (besides roots growing into them sometimes). I change out my nutrients weekly... like the DNF schedule says and I've never had a algae problem.



			
				RatherBBurnin said:
			
		

> So i am to assume that my nutes have a buffer added.. and because i am using bottled water.. and its mixed to lower tap water.. is the reason my ph goes from 7.0.... to 3.5 after i add my nutes???? this isnt over time.. its over the period of mixing the nutes in... and should i be adjusting it back to 5.5... ive duct taped the holes where the airline enters... i might just duct tape the sides of the bid as well just to keep it air tight... good idea or bad idea???


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## Mutt (Jun 21, 2007)

KADE said:
			
		

> BTW My res is wide open to the room... it sits on the floor under my table open to the ambient light. I don't get any clogs in sprayers or drip stakes (besides roots growing into them sometimes). I change out my nutrients weekly... like the DNF schedule says and I've never had a algae problem.


 
Id the container clear or like one of those green rubbermaids?


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 21, 2007)

Well i am starting with ph 7.0..and using GROW A+B and BLOOM A+B..what other DNF products should i be using in the bloom phase??? 

My container was like a teal colour.. but im starting to think i was the problem for the algae and not the system.. because a) i used clones rooted in dirty rockwool..
and b) i was top feeding water through the medium.. into the res... which the res was very acidic..... which i think may have caused the algae..


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## KADE (Jun 22, 2007)

Mutt said:
			
		

> Id the container clear or like one of those green rubbermaids?


 
Neither... Black hard plastic... the hydro place i got it from says it was made for a res... sooo I dunno... algae resistant perhaps? I dont bother to put the top on it.. and i dont get any in there... I've gone 2 weeks and it wasn't a problem either... perhaps there isn't enough light in the shade from my table.


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## KADE (Jun 22, 2007)

RatherBBurnin said:
			
		

> Well i am starting with ph 7.0..and using GROW A+B and BLOOM A+B..what other DNF products should i be using in the bloom phase???
> 
> My container was like a teal colour.. but im starting to think i was the problem for the algae and not the system.. because a) i used clones rooted in dirty rockwool..
> and b) i was top feeding water through the medium.. into the res... which the res was very acidic..... which i think may have caused the algae..


 
During the cutting/sprouting stage you'll use - Grow A+B and DNF Green
Seedlings (established rooted plants) - grow a+b, DNF green, DNF black
Veg - DNF Grow A+B, DNF Gold, DNF Black
Bloom - DNF Bloom A+B, DNF Gold, DNF Black.... once flowers appear.. use a bloom fortifier... DNF makes it... or monster bloom, those kinda products.

Superthrive is also another WICKED potent additive.. About $125.cad for a small bottle... it'll last most of ur life. You'll see a growth difference overnite... also.. if you can get it... pinemyte a pine oil supplement... amazing stuff.. i told you guys i was gonna go a grow out w/ it... i did.. HUUUGE potential that stuff.... it is kinda $$.. but if you are looking for EXTREME growth and healthy plants... then thas ur ticket... u'll use a whole bottle pretty fast... a bottle is $25cad

If you can afford to not skimp on the additives man.. DOOOO IT buy them up.. Dnf performs VERY well with them. Here.. take a look.

In a whole grow I use;
Power $150.00
Half a bottle of A+B grow. $7.50 
Full bottle of A+B Bloom $15.00
1/8 bottle of Green. $4.00
Full bottle of Black $15.00
Full bottle of Gold $25.00
Bloom Fortifier (monster bloom) $25.00
Superthrive $0.50
Pinemyte $25.00

Total $267.00... and this time I know 100% I'll be getting over 2 pounds (908 grams)
Street value of like $9080... so I saved myself basically $8800 from buying off the street... Well worth the other $100 in nutes... to double my yeild.. I was only barely clearing just under a pound a grow w/o the additives.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 22, 2007)

Well i guess ill have to go grab bottle of green black gold and bloom... 

i tried to get superthrive.. but they didnt have any at walmart or homedepot.... and at the local hydro shop they sell hydrothrive.... 


I think DNF nutes are a ontario thing..


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## KADE (Jun 24, 2007)

RatherBBurnin said:
			
		

> Well i guess ill have to go grab bottle of green black gold and bloom...
> 
> i tried to get superthrive.. but they didnt have any at walmart or homedepot.... and at the local hydro shop they sell hydrothrive....
> 
> I think DNF nutes are a ontario thing..


 
Check ebay maybe? DNF is distributed in Canada ONLY by Homegrown Hydroponics (hydroponics.com) and they are in Ontario... soo I guess!? I'm not in Ontario btw. More East, more salt water.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 25, 2007)

Yea... i actually get mine thru the local HomeGrown.... i figured it was their signature line..


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 25, 2007)

Is it normal to have greyish slime on the roots in hydroponics.. for some reason i came home from camping..and my plants look great.. minus the slime on the roots in the water....


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## allgrownup (Jun 26, 2007)

BBurnin, I have bought ST at Lowes before as well.  Its hard to see.  Its a very small bottle.  it usually is hanging by a cardboard package. i've never seen a bottle on a shelf.

Look hard.  You can also purchase direct from their site as well as request a free sample.  The free sample will last you a grow most likely.


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## Stoney Bud (Jun 26, 2007)

RatherBBurnin said:
			
		

> Is it normal to have greyish slime on the roots in hydroponics.. for some reason i came home from camping..and my plants look great.. minus the slime on the roots in the water....


No, it's not normal. Has light been hitting your nutrient solution? It may be algae growth. Is you pH jumping around?


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 26, 2007)

ph is jumping all over the place... but i dont see how light could be getting into my res....... its sealed and no holes..


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## DLtoker (Jun 26, 2007)

It's the lemon juice you are using for pH down man.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 26, 2007)

but it was doing the same ish when i was using fish tank ph down.... or is that just as trash as lemon juice?


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## DLtoker (Jun 26, 2007)

Ah, IDK.  I believe it would be safe to assume the fish pH adjustment chems are very similar to hydro.  I guess this one is over me at this time.  Everything that has been brought up in this thread seems reasonable... but the biggie, no algae, then I have no idea.  Maybe I'll crack out a good old book and see what I can dig up for other possibles.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 26, 2007)

I think what i am going to do when the light turns on in 6 hours is... switch out the solution... im going to rinse off the roots with some water... and see what happens... 

The roots are still white..they dont look like they are rotting.. and the sludge comes off very easily when i try to get it off


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## Stoney Bud (Jun 26, 2007)

The lemon juice may be causing some sort of bacteria growth because of the natural sugars in it. Also, fish tank ph adjustment isn't good for plants. It can cause lockout of nutrients which could also be part of your problem with ph. 

I would advise you to buy some *plant* ph adjustment and stop using the lemon or fish tank stuff.

Also, if you're in DWC and don't have enough water agitation via the air pump, it could also cause bacteria problems.

Heat would complicate it as well. Your reservoir water should be as close to 75F as possible.

If you're going to go with hydro, start buying the stuff that's made totally for hydro. Trying to take the cheap route always backfires. Buy the good stuff and you'll have much less problems.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 26, 2007)

heres the part i dont understand.... 
If i use tap water.. my tap water is 7.8ph.. i add the nutes and it drops to 7.0... 
If i use the bottled water it starts with 7.0ph...and when i add nutes it comes back at 3.5....  does that make sense???  i went to the hydro store today and he closed early on me.. so tomorrow im there to get some ph down and ph up...  and some neem for the spider mites...


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## KADE (Jun 27, 2007)

Ack!!! spider mites!?  i wish u luck with that battle!


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## MergeLeft (Jun 27, 2007)

RatherBBurnin said:
			
		

> heres the part i dont understand....
> If i use tap water.. my tap water is 7.8ph.. i add the nutes and it drops to 7.0...
> If i use the bottled water it starts with 7.0ph...and when i add nutes it comes back at 3.5.... does that make sense??? ..


 
I was never good in math but here goes: the ph scale is exponential- like the richter scale. 7.8 is almost 10x higher than 7.0. So your nutes bring the number down in proportion.

Ok, I'm even less good at explaining it. But I think the explanation is the exponential scale.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 27, 2007)

I still dont understand how 7.0 gets halfed by adding nuts but 7.8 only goes to 7.0.... that math just doesnt work... and the nutes said it would drop 1 ph level after added the nutes...


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## MergeLeft (Jun 27, 2007)

Go backwards with the math. 7.0 is 10x higher than 6.0, 6.0 is 10x higher than 5, etc. It would take much more acidic content nutes to go from 7 to 6 than it would from 6 down to 3.5.


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## MergeLeft (Jun 27, 2007)

This link even has a place to "practice" the ph math (over my head lol) Here it is with their explanation and chart.

http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/184ph.html


"The pH scale measures how acidic or basic a substance is. The pH scale ranges from 0 to 14. A pH of 7 is neutral. A pH less than 7 is acidic. A pH greater than 7 is basic.

The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result, each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6. The same holds true for pH values above 7, each of which is ten times more alkaline (another way to say basic) than the next lower whole value. For example, pH 10 is ten times more alkaline than pH 9 and 100 times (10 times 10) more alkaline than pH 8.

Pure water is neutral. But when chemicals are mixed with water, the mixture can become either acidic or basic. Examples of acidic substances are vinegar and lemon juice. Lye, milk of magnesia, and ammonia are examples of basic substances."

FYI the logarithmic Richter Scale for earthquakes is the same type of thing & this helps me to understand the ph thing.  When it comes to science & math, I take the experts words for it, and try to wrap my head around the general idea. But if you ever been in a 7.0, you know the diff between that and a 6 is MUCH bigger than the difference between a 3 and a 6.


"The Richter Scale is a logarithmic function that uses the common base, 10. The equation is:
                              M = 10 R                  or                  R = log M

Where M is the amount of ground movement (strength of the earthquake) And R is the strength of the earthquake on the Richter Scale. Because the Richter Scale uses a base of 10 each increase of 1 in the strength of an earthquake on the Richter Scale means that there is 10 times as much ground movement. 

The amount of energy in an earthquake increases by a factor of 1000 (also called 3 magnitudes) when the value on the Richter Scale increases by 2.  The equation for the energy in an earthquake is:                                                                        E » 31R

 Where E is the factor the energy increases by and R is the increase in the value on the Richter scale. For example, there is 1000 times more energy in an earthquake that measures 6.8 than one that measures 4.8 on the Richter Scale.


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 27, 2007)

But it was going from 7.0 to 3.5...  when using bottled water..
and only 7.8 to 7.0 using tap water.. even then the math doesnt work out... 

I got the answer i think at the local shop... because i am using RO water there is barely any content to it.. so when i add the nutes.. it makes it very acidic.. however the town tap water has a higher ppm with other additives.. which makes the nutes less potent hence bringing the ph down less... 

At least thats what i was explained by the hydro guy...


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## futuredream45 (Jun 28, 2007)

KADE said:
			
		

> Yeah, I have good well water... around 7.4-7.8 (depending on what time of year) When I add the bloom A+B, DNF black/gold, bloom enhancer it drops my ph (in 60 liters) down to 5.8... perfect for blooming.... In your case you'll need to bring it up a bit...
> Veg from 5.8-6.2 Bloom from 5.6-5.8 with dnf.


 
I also have the ph problem, and it really drive me crazy.:hitchair:  Kade, you mean if I get these DNF you mention about, the ph will down to the number i want. How long the ph can stay in the number?


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 28, 2007)

All you need to keep a stable PH is the right ph buffers... ive learn that the really hard way...


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## futuredream45 (Jun 28, 2007)

RatherBBurnin said:
			
		

> All you need to keep a stable PH is the right ph buffers... ive learn that the really hard way...


 
Where can i learn the ph buffer ??


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## MergeLeft (Jun 28, 2007)

RatherBBurnin said:
			
		

> But it was going from 7.0 to 3.5... when using bottled water..
> and only 7.8 to 7.0 using tap water.. even then the math doesnt work out...


 
You're right RatherBB   it doesn't make sense based just on the logarithmic scale. I was thinking the scale went from 1-up, but it has to go both directions from neutral 7.0. This cleared it up for me & to correct my errors in preceding posts on this thread, this is from Spectrum Analytic's Agronomic Library (topic: soil ph):

The soil pH scale is logarithmic; meaning that each whole number is a factor of 10 larger or smaller than the ones next to it. For example if a soil has a pH of 7.0 and this pH is lowered to pH 6.0, the acid content of that soil is increased 10-fold. If the pH is lowered further to pH 5.0, the acid content becomes 100 times greater than at pH 7.0. The logarithmic nature of the pH scale means that small changes in a soil pH can have large effects on nutrient availability and plant growth.
http://www.spectrumanalytic.com/support/library/ff/soil_buffer_ph.htm


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## MergeLeft (Jun 28, 2007)

futuredream45 said:
			
		

> Where can i learn the ph buffer ??


 
I think "buffer" is the additive used to help keep ph stable. The property of water to resist changes in pH is known as "buffering capacity,"which is made up of dissolved minerals which tend to keep pH stable. 

Buffering capacity is measured by total hardness in your water. By testing total hardness can you predict whether your pH will remain stable after it is adjusted to the appropriate level. (A reading of 4-6 dH or higher is recommended in aquariums to keep ph stable). Adding nutes and the growing process tend to lower ph.

RBB, what the hydro guy explained make sense (unlike me:huh: ) -  the salts and minerals which buffer water against ph dropping have been taken out of ionized water. So you have to use an buffer agent. They raise ppm and contain salts I have read elsewhere may not be so great for mj but I defer to RBB who has the experience. 

RBB do you use an added buffer agent? BTW why the ionized water- is it to keep ppm low?


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## RatherBBurnin (Jun 28, 2007)

Im using the DNF ph up and down to stablize my solution...  The reason i was using RO water is because my house water is very hard... and i have a water softner... and i was worried about the salt count in the tap water.... But yea... i think i may have figured out how to keep it stable now..


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## MergeLeft (Jun 29, 2007)

RatherBBurnin said:
			
		

> But yea... i think i may have figured out how to keep it stable now..


 
& I bet it wasn't easy! When I set up aquariums several years ago, for some reason the tap water was incredibly high ph- like they were adding bleach to it, plus inadequate buffering to keep adjusted ph down. Many fish gave their lives while I struggled to get it down to where they like it & keep it there. 

I'm using bottled spring water in my hydro because it's more predictable than the crap that spews out of the water system.


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## Viracocha711 (Jul 9, 2007)

KADE said:
			
		

> Ph will go up.. if there is algae growth or rapid root growth... if not, then it should go down like usual as water is used up faster then the nutes.


 

Rapid root growth...? If I know for a fact that I have no algae in my res and that my res temps are perfect 65F-70F, I am using GH 3 part half strength veg mix, then is rapid root growth a possible reason why I have to use GH pH down everyday, sometimes twice a day?

I just recently moved my plants into a much larger containers, 10 gal rubbermaid or sterlite plastic tub, each plant has it's own container with lots of room for root growth.

What would cause rapid root growth in a hydro system? Not enough nutes? Maybe I need to up the mix, I was just going slow with the nutes.

...Or could it be that I need to increase the number of flood cycles a day? I am currently flooding once every 3 hours for 15 minutes.


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## KADE (Jul 9, 2007)

I find I have 2 times through a grow where that happens...  1.5 weeks into veg and the 2nd week of stretching through flowering..


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