# If a seedbank can legally operate...



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

Why not a seed exchange?  Obviously it would be against site rules to have one here, but it is something I have wondered since looking and seeing how much beans cost....they are SEEDS from a plant after all, no reason to be charging someone over $100 for 10 seeds.  Bean companies are a RACKET!  Think about it, at 10 seeds for $100+ you are making THOUSANDS more selling beans from seeded plants than if you were just selling the bud since only two plants together can produce literally hundreds of seeds.  If a bean company crosses two plants naturally, and say they produce CONSERVATIVELY 300 viable seeds from those two plants, then those seeds at $100 per ten pack are making them around $3,000 for ONE PLANT'S worth of seeds, and all they did was mate the two plants....not exactly a lot of work.  Now multiply this by thousands of plants and dozens of strains....the people running seedbanks are making a killing.  And behind each seedbank there is really only a small number of people who know the process, the rest of the money you spend there goes to pay the PR and Marketing People, line the pocket's of the owner's, the owner's son who doesn't actually work there but takes a paycheck, the licensing for the site, money to enter their strains into contests and competitions....etc, etc.    How nice would it be to find a way to stop them from bending us over  

So how cool would it be if there was a site that you could go to and trade/sell beans with other growers?  It would work like Ebay, where people gave you a rating after the trade.  So if you didn't trade viable seeds you would get a poor rating and no one would trade/buy with you.  It would be nice to buy only one or two strains and save some coin, then through seed runs and trading increase stock... I would trust a bean hog with a good trade rating based on consumer's votes before what a seedbank tells me anyway.  If companies like Craig'sList can operate with people putting up ads for hookers and other illegal activities because as they say, "They have no control over what people post", then surely the same rules would apply to a bean trading website.  The website would be doing nothing illegal, even LESS illegal than the bean distributors when you think about it, all the site would be doing is trading information and the people doing the bean mail.  Women have sold their virginity on Ebay, no one prosecutes Ebay under prostitution laws, because just like Craig's List they can claim they have no control over how members use the forum.  So why not a bean exchange?     

  I know what most are thinking?  That would never work because how would I know if I was trading beans with an LEO pretending to be a member.  Well, first off an L.E.O. would never have a high rating, they would have to get user comments and votes for their rating on trades to increase.  Secondly, trading beans with someone over the internet would not really be more dangerous than buying from a seedbank.  If I find a guy in my country that is willing to trade beans and I know from other users that he can be trusted, then I would be happy to trade with him, and I would not be sending anything from one country to another so it would not have to go by customs.  And I still don't trust the seedbanks with my info.  Say the owner of one gets busted a year from now and is told, "You can either spend the rest of your life in jail for drug distribution or give us a list of everyone you have ever sold beans to"...what do you think is going to happen?...over the next few weeks LEO would be raiding homes across the planet.  
  The same things could be done to make yourself safe, use a P.O. Box or alternate address for mail, pay with money orders ,etc etc.  

  I also feel a bean exchange would help reduce the cost of seeds and true, non-inflated prices would begin to appear. 
  One of the drawbacks I see is by cutting funding and income from seedbanks, their money going into R&D would be cut so you would probably not see as many new things coming out or as many improvements to strains, but there is no doubt they would still make more than enough money to continue breeding new genetics and stay happily in business, but other than this and a few smaller things I can think of it really seems like it could work.
  20 years ago no one said people would be willing to gamble or play poker over the interenet against each other for money, now online gaming is a multibillion dollar business.  

Whadda ya think?  Crazy idea? Or possible some day?


----------



## umbra (Jun 10, 2009)

Hmmm. Well if you think breeders are making tons of money, how many clones can you take from a single plant. What do dispensaries charge for clones $10 , $15 each. When Harborside puts out 1000 clones and they last 2 hours, how much do you think they make.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

....online seedbanks......not compassion clubs providing clones......


----------



## pcduck (Jun 10, 2009)

I think a lot of bad generics would be exchanged amongst themselves. How would one go about regulating a person passing bad generics? After a few years of this all mj would be all hermies and ditch weed.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

pcduck said:
			
		

> I think a lot of bad generics would be exchanged amongst themselves. How would one go about regulating a person passing bad generics? After a few years of this all mj would be all hermies and ditch weed.


 
The same way seedbanks with poor genetics are weeded out, poor ratings.  It would not just create ditch weed and hermies because no one would breed a great looking and performing strain they have with one they get from someone else if that new strain looks like crap or was hermie.  The person they got the beans from would get negative comments, and the grower that got the bad beans would obviously not continue with those genetics.


----------



## pcduck (Jun 10, 2009)

I get a poor rating ...I change IPs and name come back and do it all over again.

How many seedbanks are there? How many people want free mj seeds...quite a difference in numbers, I would think


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

pcduck said:
			
		

> I get a poor rating ...I change IPs and name come back and do it all over again.
> 
> How many seedbanks are there? How many people want free mj seeds...quite a difference in numbers, I would think


 
You can't do that because each time you change you start from scratch.  You want to trade seeds with a guy that has been trading WW for over a year and has great comments about his beans?  Or someone brand new that says they have WW? Who would want your beans as a noob?  You would have to reraise your status each time before you went on a rip off spree screwing people over.  It would be obvious who the bean collector's were and who the people there to make money were.  You could just display member's trading histories.  So if we are both traders on the site and have been trading beans for a year, and you have made 400 trades/sales/buys in the last 100 days and have made multiple trades for the same strain over and over with no rhyme or reason to what you are doing, it would be obvious.  If I had made 50 trades/sells/buys over the last year, each time adding new genetics and only making trades that benefited my personal stock, well then it would be obvious that I was a user just interested in getting good beans and sharing good beans.


----------



## SPEARCHUCKER (Jun 10, 2009)

I really dont think some of the seedbanks really make all that much to where they could slash the prices and survive. If they did, they would all have the same competitive prices. Like with gas.
Their arnt that many true growers in the world. America has what? 30-40 million that have toked. 20million that use weekly/monthly. And 99% think when they get a bag from a dealer. If it has a couple red hairs in it, ITS KILLER STUFF! And half of the other 1% are the ones growing the commercial stuff for profit. I say for true Connoisseur growers that it could be a number as low as 30-50k. With half of that in Cali.

We are rare. And like with anything rare. Your gonna pay.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

SPEARCHUCKER said:
			
		

> I really dont think some of the seedbanks really make all that much to where they could slash the prices and survive. .


 
I can walk into my nearby garden supply center and buy a pack of tomato seeds roughly 500 seeds for $4.99, that company seems to make money, there is no way a fair market value for marijuana seeds is $100+ for ten beans.....seedbanks are making money hand over fist.


----------



## pcduck (Jun 10, 2009)

NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer said:
			
		

> You can't do that because each time you change you start from scratch.  You want to trade seeds with a guy that has been trading WW for over a year and has great comments about his beans?  Or someone brand new that says they have WW? Who would want your beans as a noob?  You would have to reraise your status each time before you went on a rip off spree screwing people over.  It would be obvious who the bean collector's were and who the people there to make money were.  You could just display member's trading histories.  So if we are both traders on the site and have been trading beans for a year, and you have made 400 trades/sales/buys in the last 100 days and have made multiple trades for the same strain over and over with no rhyme or reason to what you are doing, it would be obvious.  If I had made 50 trades/sells/buys over the last year, each time adding new genetics and only making trades that benefited my personal stock, well then it would be obvious that I was a user just interested in getting good beans and sharing good beans.




Everybody would be a noob in the beginning and who's to say a noob would not have better generics?


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

you gotta start somewhere   But you make a few trades with other noobs, after a couple months you have some good comments and a good trade history and you are off.  
Plus most don't even buy directly from breeders, they buy from the banks and distributors who also take a cut.
I figure the board would eventually turn itself into an elite system.  Where the best only trade/buy from the best and are therefore preserving good genetics.

Thanks for pointing all the potential flaws, it was why I started the post anyway, to debate the concept


----------



## SPEARCHUCKER (Jun 10, 2009)

There are probably 5-10000 tomato growers for every 1 bud grower.
Me an every person in my community has a garden.
Look at the availability of tomato seeds. All the ketchup Heinz makes alone, just extracting the seeds to throw away.
No science behind it either. State funded universities like your UF has been doing tomato research for everyone.
Uni of Mississippi is doing the research, but none of their secrets are getting out from their findings.
Its more like Truffles. They are super expensive for a reason. 

But the beanbanks are like everyday businesses. You have your mighty Walmart and Target. The smaller mom&pop type places cant compete. And you see prices at those for far more. With half of those banks not even having a decent site to order through.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

SPEARCHUCKER said:
			
		

> There are probably 5-10000 tomato growers for every 1 bud grower.
> Me an every person in my community has a garden.
> Look at the availability of tomato seeds. All the ketchup Heinz makes alone, just extracting the seeds to throw away.
> No science behind it either. State funded universities like your UF has been doing tomato research for everyone.
> ...


 
Sorry but I disagree with you.  Beans are WAY overpriced.  Some breeders make money selling their beans for $35 a ten pack, some sell theirs for $165 just because they are older and have a better rep.  The new breeders just don't have the rep.  If the new breeder wins a cannabis cup or some competition somewhere, then the price increases not because their costs have increased, but because the market BEARS THE PRICE they charge.  

  You did however hit one something that could be a problem in your previous post where you mentioned that there are only so many good growers out there.  This is true.  So if I got some great genetics that I can grow well and prodce really well from, and I trade them to a noob who sucks at growing and he grows poor plants, stresses them and they turn hermie, then he will come back and leave negative comments even though the beans are good.
  I guess this would help prevent overtrading and people profiteering because real traders who are there with good beans looking to expand their gardens genetics will not WANT to trade/sell with noobs because it might reflect negatively on their rating when the noob can't even germ the beans.


----------



## umbra (Jun 10, 2009)

NYC trading is done all the time. And not just seeds, clones too. Which is why I brought up the point. I deal directly with breeders as much as possible. There are plenty that make themselves available to customers. Many use beta testers for new hybrids. Not all breeders are money grubbers. There can be an enormous amount of work involved in growing out candidates for male and female selection.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

umbra said:
			
		

> NYC trading is done all the time. And not just seeds, clones too. Which is why I brought up the point. I deal directly with breeders as much as possible. There are plenty that make themselves available to customers. Many use beta testers for new hybrids. Not all breeders are money grubbers. There can be an enormous amount of work involved in growing out candidates for male and female selection.


 
:yeahthat:  Excellent point.  But some of us would not be able to contact breeders directly and be beta testers due to location and the legal status of growing in the area.  True breeders would always be in business as people are always going to want to try new things, but cutting the profits of the banks and distributors in the process would help us   Most people buy their beans from banks or distributors who do nothing but buy the beans from the breeders and then turn around and sell them.


----------



## SherwoodForest (Jun 10, 2009)

I don't know why someone doesn't start a seedbank in the US. The seeds can be made for practically nothing, and thousands of seeds can be made with ease. I guess it all goes back to not enough growers needing to buy seeds. And it would be hard to sell them without advertising. I don't know, but it sure would be cool if some folks growing killer strains would produce seeds and disperse them to everyone.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

Tell you what, to entice breeders into getting on board just give them ad space based on which breeders get the best user's comments lol.  Breeders could advertise directly on the site and sell through the site, the site would not profit from it.  Users could buy at breeder's cost until they had enough of a rep to trade.


----------



## SPEARCHUCKER (Jun 10, 2009)

> Some breeders make money selling their beans for $35 a ten pack, some sell theirs for $165 just because they are older and have a better rep.



Those "some" breeders selling them for so cheap dont have whats invested in the seeds either.
Look at Seedsmans. They sell highly affordable seeds. And they do it like supermarket chains do it. You can get Tide detergent for 5.99 a gallon. But the supermarket brand might be 2.99 a gallon. Come off the same line, same exact thing. But different package. They pay for the rights.
Then you have Generic (ripoff) companies like Nirvana. Who steal something, toss in a skunk and try to breed it out real quick. And toss it on the market as to being nearly the same as the original. (Jock = Ripoff Jack for instance)
Company like Sensi does the research, has the labs, go through thousands of test to narrow it down and put out a single strain. And you pay for it. And nothings going to come close to the service they provide so they can charge it.


----------



## Exarmy (Jun 10, 2009)

I do agree. Since when does a plant that can produce millions of seeds from one plant. And then turn around and say you want $2-300 for 10 of them. Its the same thing with diamonds. they are only rare because a couple of companys hord them. If we were to follow Marc Emerys beleif and over run the country with seeds they will have no choice but to decriminalize it.

And to be honest I have a hard time paying $60 for seeds. and have only for lowlifes gear. and next i plan on barneys and serious. but i cant do it for a while.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

SPEARCHUCKER said:
			
		

> Those "some" breeders selling them for so cheap dont have whats invested in the seeds either.
> Look at Seedsmans. They sell highly affordable seeds. And they do it like supermarket chains do it. You can get Tide detergent for 5.99 a gallon. But the supermarket brand might be 2.99 a gallon. Come off the same line, same exact thing. But different package. They pay for the rights.
> Then you have Generic (ripoff) companies like Nirvana. Who steal something, toss in a skunk and try to breed it out real quick. And toss it on the market as to being nearly the same as the original. (Jock = Ripoff Jack for instance)
> Company like Sensi does the research, has the labs, go through thousands of test to narrow it down and put out a single strain. And you pay for it. And nothings going to come close to the service they provide so they can charge it.


 
This is true to a point but Sensi had to start somewhere.  If the Jack Herer and Ed Rosenthal strains didn't win dozens of cups between them the seeds wouldn't be so expensive, they would be $30 a ten pack and Sensi would still be making money.  Check out HempDepot and read the description of the new breeder Cannacopia.  They are just trying to get started and offering cheaper beans.  But if one of those strains wins a cannabis cup you better believe the price is going to $100+ for a ten pack instead of $35.  DJ Short's cheapest strain on that site is $140 for 10 seeds of Flo.  DJ Short charges what he charges because of his rep, not because he puts 5 times as much money and work into his breeding.  I don't want to pay 5 times as much for the same genetics because the breeder has a better rep.  And cannacopia's genetics may be just as good, but are unproven.

Why buy a $6 gallon of gas from Exxon if you can get the same gas across the street at Bob's Gas Depot for $3 a gallon.
I am not saying that this new breeder HAS genetics as good as DJ Short, but they MIGHT.  And if their rep grows so will the prices, even though the costs of operating the business do not change.  And if they are making money at $35 a ten pack, they are making a KILLING at $145.  Ever see an old link to that site the canadian guy runs called like "Ricky's Seeds" or something like that?  He sells this strain he calls triplenode.  Two years ago he was advertizing it as brand new, something amazing, and advertizing the seeds for $10,000 on his site.  Now they are $400.  The market charges what people will pay.  And this is probably just some yahoo growing a few plants in his basement and making money off chumps.

A seed exchange would be unbiased.  It would not be a breeder pushing certain genetics he has stockpiled and it would not be a seedbank or distributor making outlandish claims like "yield of 6 ounces per plant, flowering time 35 days" just to get you to by the seeds.  It would be populated with growers like this one looking to expand their own abilities and help people out.  The very MOTIVATION behind the site would be a better concept.


----------



## umbra (Jun 10, 2009)

The seedbanks that sell the breeders seeds are no different than any retail shop. 100%+ markup is common for Macy's or Nordstrom's. Why would seeds be any different. And there are seedbanks in usa.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

Yea I have seen one seedbank operating out of US, but I didn't get enough info on it to feel comfortable trying it.  Umbra you are right, but costs should be considered as well.

A seedbank buys a bunch of seeds from the breeder, then mails them to you when you send them money.  Macy's has to build 5,000 square foot stores, run them with power, staff them, clean them, pay the rent and bills on them, rent billboards and pay for radio ads and TV commercials.  A seedbank runs a website and sells throgh word of mouth.  Operating costs and overhead are almost nothing, a 100% markup is ridiculous.


----------



## SPEARCHUCKER (Jun 10, 2009)

Yea alot has to do with rep received. But some of them spend alot of money to keep the rep high by investing huge sums in genetics.

Give you a couple examples.
Sunglasses. Oakley had to build up their rep to be able to charge so much. But they spend a ton in design, quality, testing, advertising, marketing, to keep it there. Then on the other hand, I can run to the mall right now and get their deal of 2 Oakley knockoffs for 11 bucks. Even got the Oakley name on them and everything.

Or Golf clubs. Nike, Taylor Made, Calloway all spend millions upon millions to try and put out the best product. And it shows in the price. Yet some little knockoff company buys a set, makes exact duplicate molds of them. And can put out their own at 1/10th the cost.

Both the knockoffs and Big names are making great money. But there is a difference in the way the money is made. 

And while I refuse to buy Knockoff Golf Clubs. I love me some knockoff sunglasses (mainly cause I lose bout 5 pair each summer on the boat) and I love me some Seedsmans Seeds who brings the real deal, with less effort and overhead to pay for.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

SPEARCHUCKER said:
			
		

> Or Golf clubs. Nike, Taylor Made, Calloway all spend millions upon millions to try and put out the best product. And it shows in the price. Yet some little knockoff company buys a set, makes exact duplicate molds of them. And can put out their own at 1/10th the cost.


 
I agree with you completely.  But if my Nike irons have babies, their babies are Nike.  Or to put it a clearer way....
  Yes, Nike can charge more for their irons than some new fly by night knock-off company.  And I would have to pay more for them brand new because Nike put a lot into designing them, but I am still paying for the Nike logo as well....or I can buy a used set on Ebay in brand new condition for a lot less    A seed exchange would be this option.  I could buy brand new Blueberry Seeds straight from DJ Short, or I can buy a hybrid or a copy for a lot cheaper from a new breeder.  Or...if you have blueberry seeds from DJ Short, and I trust you to be a reputable person who is really intrerested in getting some of my Jack Herer beans, then I should be able to trade you, or even buy them right from you.  Once you have purchased those genetics from DJ short, it should be your right to do whatever you want with them, including reselling them or selling their offspring.


----------



## SPEARCHUCKER (Jun 10, 2009)

> Once you have purchased those genetics from DJ short, it should be your right to do whatever you want with them,



Wouldnt that kinda be like copyright infringement? 
Like I can buy me a Britney Spears CD. But that doesnt give me the right to make you and everyone else a copy. No matter how much I know you love her.
Or before a football game. Where it says "This may not be used without the expressed written consent of the National Football League"

I dont know. Seems like a fine line. Cause in return to that, I can also grow all the corn I want. And give you all the corn seeds I want without having to worry about infringing anything.


Edit in: Oh and I forgot to add. Taylor Made rules!


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

SPEARCHUCKER said:
			
		

> Wouldnt that kinda be like copyright infringement?
> Like I can buy me a Britney Spears CD. But that doesnt give me the right to make you and everyone else a copy. No matter how much I know you love her.
> Or before a football game. Where it says "This may not be used without the expressed written consent of the National Football League"
> 
> ...


 
Very good point....I consider it to be like livestock.  If I buy two chickens from you I shouldn't have to pay you every time one lay's an egg and I sell it.  I guess trading the true genetics from the breeders might be a problem, but F-2's and crosses, anything beyond would not be protected under any laws I can think of even if the breeders true F-1's, or whatever line, were protected.  I guess in theory this would cause poor growers to end up with bad beans, and even some good growers who are bad breeders to end up with bad beans cuz they cant breed.  But it would HELP those who can breed be able to grow even better strains.  Perhaps among a select group of breeders and traders genetic diversity and good genetics being transferred could create MORE strains and better characteristics as the available genetics for breeding increases among breeders.


----------



## Organix (Jun 10, 2009)

I do not mean to throw the topic off course, but I just bought a 10 pack of regular Lowryder 2 from WMS.  With much awaited anticipation, I sure watched em' grow fast alright. They were all males in a mere 16 days of their short life. 

I just emailed them. Waiting for a response. I agree with Jack, seeds are way too expensive for what they are.


----------



## umbra (Jun 10, 2009)

When it comes to breeders and seeds, the consensus seems to be that making F2 seeds are frowned on, because people might think the original breeder did it and the pheno expression would lead to a large variation. However, most breeders have little problems with taking various seeds and making F1 hybrids from them.


----------



## mr.greengenes (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm not a business major so I don't speculate on issues like this because there is no empirical evidence or data from which to draw. And the other thing, selling beans is illegal in most parts of the world so your business model is different. If it were legitimate, we would be considering taxes and tariffs as a component of profit structure. I wish it were easier to buy beans for illicit means, but it isn't. I live in California where, if I get a medical marijuana card, I can purchase mmj, beans and clones from dispensaries. And they do pay state and federal taxes. I like your idea. But the bottom line is there is a huge potential to get busted once you organize an illicit business. And that's not even taking into consideration the potential personal impact of drug lords, gangs, etc. that prey on ill-equipped entrepreneurs. IMHO stick to growing for personal consumption and try to fly under the radar.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

I don't know...if seedbanks can operate then a bean trading site could.  As said the legality would be EASIER because the site is selling nothing illegal, it is simply providing a place for people to share beans.  Ther eis no business model, just a theory being thrown out.  The site woud not be operated by a company looking to profit, just someone who lives somewhere that could get away with the legality of it.  If someone living in Canada or the Netherlands can ship beans to parts of the world where it is illegal and get away with it, SURELY it would be easier to run a site that helps distribute beans, but never even touches anything illegal.  As I said, if CraigsList can get away with having Hookers posting advertisements on their site by saying they are not responsible for the content, a bean trading site could do the same thing.  Ad space could be given away to breeders who have proven they can produce good genetics and that are very poular seeds, and the site could generate enough money to run it by selling ad space to other companies such as pipe companies, nute companies, High Times, light manufacturer's, etc etc.....The company would be SELLING nothing but ad space. The point is to have a site that is completey unbiased in what it does as far as breeding and genetics go.  Even selling the ad space would tilt the site towards certain breeders.  So the "company" or "site" would not be involved at any point in taking money from seed buying customers, or from seed suppliers.


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 10, 2009)

umbra said:
			
		

> When it comes to breeders and seeds, the consensus seems to be that making F2 seeds are frowned on, because people might think the original breeder did it and the pheno expression would lead to a large variation. However, most breeders have little problems with taking various seeds and making F1 hybrids from them.


 
Another excellent point.  I can breed two plants from two different breeders and then market the cross, and some sites even mention they received the genetic supplying parents FROM other breeders.  So if a site comes along and sells a cross of White Widow and Blueberry, even if they bought the parents from a breeder there is no problem with legality.  So why should I go buy a cross from some breeder of say... DP WW and DJ's Blueberry when that cross can be traded for free and is not copyrighted in any way? Surely you and the site will say....well the cross was made by selecting the best potential mother out of hundreds and we did the same for our male......whatever.  To me an F1 cross is still and F1 cross, and you are still working with the same parent's genetics.  
    If I grow one male DP WW and one female DJ Bueberry and cross them, their seeds are a cross of those two strains.  If you grow 100 DP WW males and 100 DJ Blueberry femaes and cross the two best.....how much better are those seeds goign to really be?  We are still talking about only one generation removed from the host parent's genetics.


----------



## Hick (Jun 11, 2009)

start yourself a seed exchange.. swap shop... but not at MP... and don't use MP as a venue for promotion... 
We aren't going to allow the risk involved...
being formerly a member of a few such a sites. I know what happens....and it's never a good thing.


----------

