# Going to set up first grow...Help!!!



## mrcane (Dec 11, 2014)

O.K. I only have an area to use that is 3' x 5' x 9' ceiling . thinking of doing walls with sheet insulation with shiny back?  How much light would i need? can one go from start to finish with t5s? Have lots of learning to do here...


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## Rosebud (Dec 11, 2014)

White paint is your better choice for reflection.  T5's are great for vegging. I don't personally know how they do in flower.  Some other folks will be around to help you out.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 11, 2014)

First of all, maybe we should take a look at what your budget is for this project--this will help us advise you on the best way to go to stay within your budget.  You say only 3 x 5, but a 15 sq ft space is a decent sized space and it will take some money to outfit it right.

FLAT white paint is great as it is cheap, washable, and is a great reflector of light--better than semi-gloss or glossy.  I really see no reason to go to the expense of the insulation panels unless you are in an unheated space in the winter, like a garage or shed.  You generally have more things to buy than you have money for anyway. 

You can use T5s for flowering, but it is going to take a whole lot of them.  Lighting requirements are generally figured as lumens per sq ft of space.  For vegging you want a minimum of 3000 lumens per sq ft and for flowering a minimum of 5000 lumens per sq ft.  Keep in mind these are minimums and most of us run quite a bit more for flowering.  Something to keep in mind is your electrical usage.  Because T5s emit less lumens per watt than HPS lighting, it is going to take about 50% more watts if you are using T5s.  This mean that every single month you are going to be paying 50% more for electricity than if you are using a larger HPS--T5s emit 92 lumens per watt, a 600W HPS 150 lumens per watt.  In addition, HPS is going to give you more yield as the light simply works better.  Your lighting is directly tied to your yield.  IMO, scrimping on light is one of the biggest mistakes you can make when setting up a grow space.  Not only does inadequate light produce way less, the bud will be airier and less dense.  So to get 5000 lumens per sq ft you would need 75,000 lumens minimum or 15 4' T5ho tubes using 810 watts....or you can run a 600W that puts out 90,000 lumens.  That is 15,000 more lumens but 210 less watts...something to keep in mind whn paying your electricity bills.

More things to think about:  ventilation  You will need a 6" centrifuge type exhaust fan to deal with heat and bring in fresh air.  Your plants need a continual supply of fresh air all the time the lights are on.

Type of medium and nutrients.  Are you going to go soil, soilless medium or hydro?  Are you going to use organic or synthetic nutrients (you must do one or the other as synthetic nutrients and organics do not work together).

Genetics:  I encourage you to peruse the seed banks and find something that sounds good to you and that is fairly easy to grow.  Decide what type of high you like and look for something that appeals to you.  There are inherent problems with using seeds you find in a bag of weed.  There are advantages to growing known genetics.  I would advise photoperiod plants if you are serious about this, rather than autos.

I also encourage you to read as much as you can.  We have a sticky in the 
beginner section with some good basic (but older) books on growing.  Some of our ideas have changed since then as we understand more about the biology of cannabis.  The more you know, the better your chances of having a successful grow.  This is a hobby that does have a learning curve.  Some people pick it up quicker than others, but cannabis has quite specific needs and wantsa and you will learn with experience to "listen to your plants" and learn what they need to thrive, but that is something comes with experience.  So no time like the present to start gaining that knowledge that will help you grow that dank bud you want.  Just like home grown veggies, there is nothing like growing your own cannabis.  It can get addictive though...


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## Joe420Camel (Dec 11, 2014)

THG,
It blows me away, all the time and effort you put into posts like the above... saying the same info you have probably typed out 100's of times before when it would be so simple to take the easy way out and say: "Read the stickys" you type it out again and again.

you are a Canna-saint!

mrcane, you have the best info and (most of) the best people ANYWHERE here to help you, I sincerely hope you heed all the advice and become the best grower you can be.

:48:


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## mrcane (Dec 12, 2014)

Thank you for the advice .I see that this will be quite the project getting set up. My budget?? I want to get it right and keep the power usage down best I can. I was thinking the insulation because it is a corner of a garage that I will build in. The garage lows are in the mid 40s..


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## mrcane (Dec 12, 2014)

By the way I will be growing with soil and organic. I am a medical user and just want to grow my own.


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## Rosebud (Dec 12, 2014)

Good choice mrcane. 

 And Joe, THG amazes me all the time. Her knowledge and memory are huge.  ANd she has many other talents as well as growing pot. The woman can do anything and smoke a joint at the same time.   We had a good time together a summer ago and smoked each other out!  I had met my match.


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## Joe420Camel (Dec 12, 2014)

mrcane said:


> Thank you for the advice .I see that this will be quite the project getting set up. My budget?? I want to get it right and keep the power usage down best I can. I was thinking the insulation because it is a corner of a garage that I will build in. The garage lows are in the mid 40s..



sounds like LED 2 me! 
 it also sounds like you have the right frame-of-mind:

Don't do it on the cheap.
 Do it as inexpensively as possible but never sacrifice doing it RIGHT!

 .


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## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 13, 2014)

If you are in a garage space that gets down into the 40s, the insulation is a good idea.  You will probably still have to add heat during lights out.  You may have to add it during lights on if you run LEDs.

I do not believe that you actually save on wattage with LEDs.  I was told that would need about the same "working wattage" with LEDs that I need with HPS.  Looking at a 700W for 7 or so sq ft (working wattage about 350) or a 400W HPS.  For a garage grow in the winter, I would be looking at HID--you are going to need the heat.  

T5s will not save you any money either--they will actually cost more to run as their lumen output per watt is substantially less.  I really would run a 1000W or 2 600W in that space.  A 1000W will cost quite a bit less than 2 600w.  While technically a 600W will give you 5000 lumens per sq ft, most of us run more light than that.  I run a single 1000W in a space about 3 x 6.   I bought a 2' 12 tube T5 (30,000 lumens) to use in a space that is 5 sq ft.


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## Joe420Camel (Dec 13, 2014)

I see your side.

We come @ this from opposite sides THG, I've never run HPS and (I believe) you have never run LED.


mrcane, (winter?) low temps are in the "mid 40's" ---> how about your summer highs?? (if the garage isn't heated, I doubt it's cooled)
lets see if there are issues on the hot side that might point us (you) in one direction or the other.


also, I would be interested to know the level of Stealth you are thinking of.
as "a medical user and just want to grow my own" the legal issue is a non factor but that's not necessarily the only reason you (may) want stealth.
:48:


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## mrcane (Dec 13, 2014)

WOW lots of info: As far as the stealth, I plan to Sheetrock the corner in,with Reg. prehung door like a regular closet.vent into attic space if needed. We live in the great N.W. and feel pretty good about the whole project. Summer temps in garage might hit 70s.  How about yields that you get from HID verses LED? any good sites to look at lights? I have power installed in corner 4 ea.110v outlets and a 220v outlet. first thing lumber list!:vap-Bong_smoker: well thanks to all, see you around!!


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## pcduck (Dec 13, 2014)

I would vent directly outdoors. Don't need no mold in the attic.


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## mrcane (Dec 13, 2014)

AH! something else to figure out, only outside wall, vent would exhaust by sidewalk.


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## pcduck (Dec 13, 2014)

If it was me, I would then run a vent through the roof. Could use a whirling vent cover, would help with extraction.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 14, 2014)

I personally would not run the vent through the roof--Hate to penetrate roofs if you do not absolutely have to as it can be hard to get flashing tight and leak-proof after the fact (I am a plumber and we run drainage vents through roofs).  I would either run it out an end wall in the attic or through the wall and disguise it as a dryer vent.

No, I have not grown with LEDs, but I am looking at them, have read a lot about them, and have had several "conversations" with PJ to determine what I would need for my spaces.  I have been growing for decades and have upgraded equipment as I could and technology caught up with the cannabis industry.  Like most that have been growing since the 80s, I started used fluoro tubes--that was what we had.  While LEDs have some real advantages, if you need the heat or if you are on a budget, IMO, you are better off with a HPS.  I just can't justify buying $700 worth of lights right now--property taxes and Christmas.  And like I said, I need the heat in the winter and do not have that much trouble keeping it cool in the summer even though we have temps over 100.  You will need an exhaust fan regardless of what light source you choose as ventilation is not just for heat control.  Your plants need a continual supply of fresh air all the time the lights are on for proper photosynthesis.

Yield should be about the same from either light source.  

The number of outlets you have is kind of immaterial--what is the amperage of the breaker they are coming from and what else is running off the same breaker?  If you have any kind of larger grow set up, you are probably going to want a dedicated circuit.  I ran a dedicated 20 amp breaker to my flowering room.  The 220 circuits (hopefully) have nothing else taken off the line.  Was the 220 already there or did you run it?


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## mrcane (Dec 14, 2014)

T.H.G. I am also not an advocate of going thru the roof, will look at making the run across garage and out gable end.As far as the power outlets go I Had installed all have there own breaker 110v 20amp. 220v  [email protected]  I see that lights will take some more research. But I am leaning towards HPS.. Next thing is getting some walls up.  Thanks:joint:


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## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 14, 2014)

Making sure that your electrical will handle the load is extremely smart.  I am a big believer in dedicated circuits for grow spaces.  I also recommend a GFI on your first outlet to help protect you--all areas that are exposed to moisture should be protected with a GFI.  I would run rigid ducting if you are running for a length of space.  Any dipsy doodles will affect air flow.


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## mrcane (Dec 14, 2014)

I did put GFIs on the 110v outlets. What size Exhaust vent will I need, will standard 4" dryer vent pipe work. also if we have an exhaust we must have an intake ???


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## pcduck (Dec 14, 2014)

I'd go with a 6" fan and your intake can be passive from the garage.


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## mrcane (Dec 14, 2014)

So if we go passive from the garage I should put vents in bottom of walls???


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## pcduck (Dec 14, 2014)

Black elbows....light will not get in room


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## mrcane (Dec 14, 2014)

Nice!:aok:


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## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 15, 2014)

You can buy 4" irrigation pipe from HD.  It is white outside and black inside and blocks light, unlike light weight PVC or dryer vent.  This pipe and fittings will be substantially cheaper than using ABS fittings and is a heck of a lot easier to cut.  If you use 6" you will find the cost of plumbing pipe prohibitive and will probably want to use insulated HVAC ducting or rigid metal HVAC ducting.  My SIL used to be in HVAC so I got a great deal on insulated ducting.  The insulated ducting is available about everywhere, blocks lights, can be cut to length, you can make long sweeping curves instead of short 90s, ande helps keep the heat being extracted in the ducting and not radiating into the room as it leaves.  You can cut intake holes from the garage side and pull in cool air from there--you do not really need to pull air from outside if you do not want to.  I pull air from my crawl space.



You should also be able


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## mrcane (Dec 19, 2014)

With the size of the room 15 Sq ft. think I could go with 4" exhaust. will have one elbow thru. Ceiling then 23'strait out. will take passive  air from garage. Right now I pulled my back out and will be down for a bit:smoke1:  No hurry have been waiting long time for this and want to try to get it right the first time...


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## Joe420Camel (Dec 19, 2014)

many would say a 4" isn't enough for 9ft2 (3x3 tent) and that's with little to no ducting... a 23' run is going to add some resistance.

small, POWERFUL fans are LOUD
you can get the same air movement with less noise using bigger fans

all the above assumes you plan to match a 4" fan with the 4" ductwork...
not that I'm suggesting using 4" duct with a 6" fan, just making a distinction between "fan" and "duct"


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## mrcane (Dec 19, 2014)

I hear where you are coming from, will be going with the 6"..does not sound like it would be over kill and I like quiet!!


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## zem (Dec 20, 2014)

THG i am very curious, you can keep temps down when temps are outside in the 100's! I wonder, is pulling air through the crawl space that effective to lower temps from the 100's to something bearable like 80? a cool tube can help maintain indoor temps almost same as outside, but how do you lower temps THAT much without the use of an A/C? I would love to do that, temps over here rarely touch the 100 for only a few days , and still, it's quite hot for indoor plants in mid summer, and I manage to grow up relatively decent yields, but I never managed to maintain quality, even, quantity at those temps. 
BTW I too am amazed at how you float through all these threads replying in details to all these questions, like it's something effortless. I wish that I had the luck of Rose to be able to meet you in person and smoke up together LOL cheers


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## zem (Dec 20, 2014)

mrcane, in a room with the dimensions of yours, I would go for a 600w in a 4x3, and use the rest of the space to do a chamber for vegging and/or cloning, and store stuff, maybe a chamber for drying my harvest etc... I would do the airflow to pass through the vegging chamber into the flowering chamber then to the exhaust outside. you have very VERY solid advice, I am jealous, as when I started out, there was nothing like MP, the closest I could get to RELIABLE advice was in these forums with a sea of threads from "nobodies" anyone who sprouted a seed or pretended to, could be there throwing his useless load of wrong info at me.


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## mrcane (Jan 11, 2015)

Time and back pain has finally allowed me to start building my room {closet}  floor space ended up being 3'x4'3" Will be starting to shop soon!!! Hope that Pics go through is my first try :vap-Bong_smoker: 

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## Rosebud (Jan 11, 2015)

Mojo for the room, and Zem, you join us next time...


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## zem (Jan 11, 2015)

Rose that is great, i am looking forward  

Mr. Cane, I am currently in the process of a general renovation and finalizing my growroom dialing it all in, i applied an idea that might help, I have vertical space which you seem to have too, so I built a false ceiling above the flowering room, and made an airtight window for it and made holes for exhaust in a way where the exhaust sucks the air from my vegging chamber, to my flowering chamber, then through the drying chamber above it, then to the outside.


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## mrcane (Jan 18, 2015)

So got sheet rock up waiting mud to dry looking what I will need for vent fan {cfm}? looking at 6" duct pulling air through a hood  or tube ? passive air from garage. temps in garage 40s 50s winter little bit of the 70s in summer, Probably run 600 watt with dimming ballast. MH & HPS   Oh room is 3' x4'x  9'tall
    Peace in the valley:ccc:


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## Joe420Camel (Jan 19, 2015)

@ 108 cubic feet... IMO anything over a 300CFM pulling through hood and filter should be sufficient 
(feel free to add extra.  "most" times you cant go wrong with more air)

Heat will be a 2-way issue if your going to try to run all year.  
I don't think your going to have HUGE issues but in the extremes you should have a plan ready to heat in dead of winter or cool in peak summer.

You have great heat sources in those lights.  Its going to be a matter of playing/learning timing etc. 
IE on @ night to not heat in summer day and also to warm in the winter.)  
Question is will that be enough.


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## mrcane (Jan 19, 2015)

Thanks Joe  Have been looking at a Vortex that puts out 347 cfm . Shopping time option overload lights,ballast??? etc.ect. Yes I see that will be little challenge with the temps.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 19, 2015)

I don't think you are going to find a 346 cfm Vortex.  I always recommend getting a speed controller with your fan.  Get a 6" 448 Vortex and put a fan speed controller on it.  I use one for my space that is about a foot and a half longer than yours.  Do not just use a rheostat to try and control the fan speed, get a fan speed controller--they are under $20


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## mrcane (Jan 19, 2015)

The fan I was looking at was at G.H. vortex S line 6" 347 CFM  And yes they state to only use a solid state speed controller  where did you find the 6" 448 Vortex?


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## MR1 (Jan 19, 2015)

Check out the Hyper fans, they come with a speed controller designed for the fan and they will suck the guts out of a Vortex.


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## 000StankDank000 (Jan 26, 2015)

Yea Hyper fans are an EC motor and can be controlled to a crawl. The vortex didn't do well on the monster gardens video on YouTube . I'm sure making the big $ fan loose to the cheap model wasn't faked. The monster garden comparison videos are done well.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 26, 2015)

LOL--well, the Vortex has done exceedingly well for The Hemp Goddess's grows.  I have used a Vortex more years than I can remember without a single problem.  I am quite sure that the fan is at least 6 years old and maybe as old as 8 years old.  It has had a speed controller connected to it its entire life.


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## 000StankDank000 (Jan 26, 2015)

You must be talking about the original style fan of the vortex yes those are awesome it looks just like the one they use to compare the new style that is a GIANT all plastic fan . EC motors can run a lot better at slow RPM and quieter. I have a cheap Chinese no name 6" fan with a speed controller on it.


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## pcduck (Jan 27, 2015)

I ran/still running 7 years on a Vortex with speed controller, cheap China knock off 14 months.


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## mrcane (Feb 4, 2015)

On that note I have just ordered a Vortex 6" Powerfan VTX600  449CFM  Will run with speed controller. Now time to shop for Light OPTION OVERLOAD want to run 600w MH veg HPS to flower  Digital dimmable, switchable ballast  Any feedback on brands ECT??


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## mrcane (Feb 8, 2015)

Oh also want to run the ballast on 220v


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## pcduck (Feb 8, 2015)

I run Nano Extreme's they are adjustable and can run mH but never felt the need. Very happy with them.:aok:


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## 000StankDank000 (Feb 8, 2015)

Yes the Extreme nano is a very nice ballast. I just run a $100 china ballast but if I was to spend $ I'd go nano extreme.


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## mrcane (Feb 8, 2015)

Was looking around found Nanolux nn600d know if it is the same as Extreme Nano?


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## pcduck (Feb 8, 2015)

Extreme was discontinued. That is the newer version.


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## mrcane (Feb 8, 2015)

AH! Thank you looks like just what I am looking for Pick up a hood for the size of room and i am on my way.... To do some more shopping and installs Lovin' It  :yay:
  By the way you think the 600 is over kill for a 3x4 room? I can always turn it down...


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## orangesunshine (Feb 8, 2015)

mrcane said:


> AH! Thank you looks like just what I am looking for Pick up a hood for the size of room and i am on my way.... To do some more shopping and installs Lovin' It  :yay:
> By the way you think the 600 is over kill for a 3x4 room? I can always turn it down...




no way is 600 over kill---i would never buy or trade anything for less than a 1k


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## pcduck (Feb 9, 2015)

I run two 600's in a 4x4


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## sopappy (Feb 14, 2015)

mrcane said:


> O.K. I only have an area to use that is 3' x 5' x 9' ceiling . thinking of doing walls with sheet insulation with shiny back?  How much light would i need? can one go from start to finish with t5s? Have lots of learning to do here...



I regret buying my T5 fixture. They are too hot. I have to remove 3 of the 4 tubes to have them on top of sprouts and they'll only barely get you through veg, not suitable to flower.

===== note: I wasn't cooling the fixture itself and worried too much about stretching... it's a balmy 24 about a foot away with all 4 tubes and cooled by a dedicated fan now.

Panda paper is ideal. You get reflection and a nicely sealed room. This IS critical for odor control. Keep in mind WHERE you exhaust. More air out than in, replace room air every 5 - 8 minutes (thanks, THG) and 60RH

Growing is a conundrum of contradictions and it would frankly drive you stark raving mad if it wasn't so much fun. I read and I read and I read and I still have trouble and/or disasters. Good luck!


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## mrcane (Feb 15, 2015)

So got the vent almost installed. Putting in an order for lighting with 1000 bulbs for Nonolux   NN600D Ballast -  6" vented hood  Hangers Ect.. Just wondering on Bulbs How many lummes will I be needing? for my 4'x3' space??


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## orangesunshine (Feb 18, 2015)

mrcane said:


> So got the vent almost installed. Putting in an order for lighting with 1000 bulbs for Nonolux   NN600D Ballast -  6" vented hood  Hangers Ect.. Just wondering on Bulbs How many lummes will I be needing? for my 4'x3' space??



4 x 3---i would go with a 1k hortilux hps bulb, 8" air cooled hood, digi, or old school inexpensive harvest pro ballast


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## The Hemp Goddess (Feb 18, 2015)

sopappy said:


> I regret buying my T5 fixture. They are too hot. I have to remove 3 of the 4 tubes to have them on top of sprouts and they'll only barely get you through veg, not suitable to flower.
> 
> Panda paper is ideal. You get reflection and a nicely sealed room. This IS critical for odor control. Keep in mind WHERE you exhaust. More air out than in, replace room air every 5 - 8 minutes (thanks, THG) and 60RH
> 
> Growing is a conundrum of contradictions and it would frankly drive you stark raving mad if it wasn't so much fun. I read and I read and I read and I still have trouble and/or disasters. Good luck!


 
Sopappy, would you start a new thread all your own so that we can address this?  If you are not able to keep a T5 cool enough, you are not going to be able to grow.  We just need to get you set up with a real exhaust system.  Like I told you earlier, an oscillating fan is not enough.  Proper ventilation is almost as important as your lighting and it has to be done right.  Without an exhaust fan you are NOT recycling the air, you are simply moving the same old hot stale air around.  I will watch for your thread and chime in there as soon as possible.


And you must have misunderstood the air exchange.  Once every 8-10 minutes is not enough.  I exchange my air about 3 times a minute.  I would recommend never going below once every 3-4 minutes.


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## sopappy (Feb 19, 2015)

Joe420Camel said:


> I see your side.
> 
> We come @ this from opposite sides THG, I've never run HPS and (I believe) you have never run LED.
> 
> ...



Legal or not, I'd suggest a high level of stealth. I'm legal and stealth is still #1.  There are two-legged pests too eh?


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## mrcane (Mar 7, 2015)

Have ventilation installed and parts are coming in.Where would you say is best place to mount the ballast?? Above light? 600watt Nanolux nn600d  it is air cooled two tiny fans. can these ballast be mounted directly against dry wall?


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## zem (Mar 8, 2015)

you can place the ballast outside the room, this way you will have less heat release inside


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## pcduck (Mar 8, 2015)

:yeahthat:


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## mrcane (Mar 8, 2015)

Humm!! Options worry about more dust & less stealth with it mounted out side room??


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## orangesunshine (Mar 8, 2015)

you can mount it on the wall if need be---you don't want to use extension cords to get it into another room---be sure its on a stud and has fire retardant backing---keep it off the floor in case of flooding


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## zem (Mar 9, 2015)

mrcane said:


> Humm!! Options worry about more dust & less stealth with it mounted out side room??



i meant that you can place it outside your flowering chamber not outside the entire room. in my case i have a drying chamber above my flowering chamber where i place the ballast in summer and i hang it right next to the light on the rail in winter. if it's impossible for you, you could just place it above the light where its heat rises or even don't worry much about it as it doesn't give that much heat anyway compared to the light lol


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## mrcane (Mar 22, 2015)

Thanks for the advice waiting on parts to finish set up. Lamp was back ordered could be two weeks Guess I will shop for some seed.....


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## mrcane (Mar 27, 2015)

The Lamp arrived, running 600 wqtt Mp Veg Hps  Flower. How high above plants should fixture go? Doing grow in garage do I see people putting insulation down on the cement floor?Got seeds on the way Papaya Fem. sounds like a nice goodnight smoke:joint: Just having fun setting up!!!


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## Joe420Camel (Mar 27, 2015)

building my cabinet was soooo much fun, it was hard to imagine having more, but growing (and, well, SMOKING) is a BLAST too!! LOL

I run LED but IIRC, "As low as you can go without overheating ANY of the canopy" was the rule of thumb with HPS.
thus the advantage cool tubes and active cooled hoods have over bat-wing, passive cooled lights. 
(offset by the extra layer of glass the light passes through)
Remember, this is coming from an all LED grower so I maybe off.

PS the above advice refers to plants in flower, IDK anything about VEG with MH
:48:


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## mrcane (Mar 29, 2015)

Things are starting to come together In my little room!! 

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## Joe420Camel (Mar 29, 2015)

NICE!!


just my thoughts:
I have one of those timers @ work for the parking lot lights.
"trust but verify" the times 
light leak 
you can try winter window insulation (strip of foam and 2 way tape) but not quite in the traditional "pinch" use... stick it to the door frame, on the INside of the door, positioned just close enough to touch the door in its "natural" fully closed/locked position .  Since your door opens "out" this will all be unseen until you open the door. 

you really want as close as possible to 100% dark, a nasty leak from a hinge or the floor could throw your flowering plants into a tizzy




I can't wait to watch you grow.
Relaxed, quality minded pace; yup, your going to grow some DANK!! :aok:
:48:


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## mrcane (Mar 29, 2015)

Thanks Joe; Didn't think of the total dark.  I imagine that I will have to do some work on that door..


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## pcduck (Mar 31, 2015)

Looking good:cool2:

As Joe mentioned, darkness is key


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## mrcane (Apr 1, 2015)

So running timer for Light ONLY on 240 Volts has 30 amp breaker each leg. Think that this is to much??maybe  20 amp?? Think that 15 it as lite as I can go...


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## mrcane (May 22, 2015)

Had some free seeds from Nirvana thought that I would give the room a test ride.  Using Roots Org. 707 for soil  feeding" A mineral tea right now then a compost tea. Will be putting them out side and one or so in hoop house for the summer and will be leaving them in my wife's care for the month of June. Will start a new grow inside when I return in July. 

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## mrcane (May 22, 2015)

The foliage seems to me to be a little on the pale side..Have not got my temps that stable highs around 78 low 60 f.???
 We will see how they adapt to this maritime climate when they go out...??


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