# anyone interested in talking about raw salts



## bagabones

:hairpull::watchplant:


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## bagabones

first need to figure out how to attach an excel spread sheet...hmmm

tried to down load a screen shot program and got a virus instead.. but luckily Norton caught it

anyone recommend a screen shot down load that's virus free..thanks


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## bagabones

major elements I use

 all of which can be purchased at crop king or custom hydro nutrients or at your local farmers co op

 calcium nitrate yara green house grade
 magnesium nitrate
 potassium nitrate
 mono potassium phosphate

 potassium sulfate
 magnesium sulfate (aka Epsom salt)

 potassium chloride

 then you have the micros

 you have 2 options

 A) use a micro nutrient mix that is pre-blended / good for directly adding into res (not good for concentrated liquid premix)

 B) measure each micro nutrient individually  (only method for mixing liquid concentrates)



 most hobby gardeners who mix there own use the direct addition method

 most commercial garden farmers use at least 2 injectors with a 2 part concentrate, one injector per consentrate

 like this;
http://www.gemplers.com/product/WEB192225/Dosatron-Fertilizer-Injectors

 if you got the $1000 the injectors are the boss

 no more res changes no more ph adjustment no more root disease no more air stones no pump except your well pump if your on a well

 example of 2 part injector system:
 2 trash can each holding 30 gallons of concentrate
 the mixing ratio is 1:128 which is 1 oz per gallon

 meaning it takes 1 ounce of each of the 2 concentrates to make 1 gallon of nutrient solution 

 all together youll get 3840 gallons of solution for what might cost $25 maybe...
 honestly the raw salts are so cheap and last so long ive never done the math to compare the cost of store bought junk


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## bagabones

View attachment nute chart photo.png


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## bagabones

thanks for the help multi


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## bagabones

ok this is a picture of the spread sheet I use for some of my figuring
as you can see this chart I entered in the GH 3 part line along with liquid kool bloom, Mg-s (Epsom salt) and cal mag (botanicare) and I also have the Gh flora nova listed

 I got this from custom hydro nutrients.. but im not sure he offers it any longer

 the other program I use is hydro buddy


http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2013/02/the-first-free-hydroponic-nutrient-calculator-program-o.html

 unless your a math genius you will need at least one of these two programs


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## bagabones

a quick understanding on how the chart works

 theres another page you cant see, its where you enter the % of each element you plan to use

 after that's done you simply enter the number of ml for each product or substance in the column nearest the name of the product

 in this case I entered 5 ml per gallon of each of the 3 parts Grow micro and bloom and also Epsom salt which would be measured in grams 

 so the result is to make 40 gallons of solution I would add 200ml of each of the 3 part and 20 grams of Mg-S to achieve my personal desired ratio

 then on the left in the large section you can see the list of the elements

 each one has a number.. that number is or should be exactly what your actually feeding your plants for each individual macro and micro nutrient

take a long look at the picture... find the numbers... 5mls,,,, 200 mls,,,, 40 gallons,,,,, 20 grams.... all on the righ smaller boxed section


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> Lots of good info over at cannastats too
> 
> 
> http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm



hadn't seen that one..cool deal


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## bagabones

so you can see mixing your 3 part for veg 1:1:1 at 5mls/gln

 will yield

 N92
 P35
 K120
 Mg 32
 Ca 66



 for veg you might find the Ca and Mg to be a bit low and the N could go up also

which would be different if I was using calmag as you are multi


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## bagabones

personally for veg I feed;

 N120
 P36
 K120
 mg40
 Ca 75


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## bagabones

to make 50 gallons of my veg formula I would add

 calcium nitrate 75 grams
 magnesium nitrate 55 grams
 potassium nitrate 43 grams
 monopotassium phosphate 11 grams

 wait 30 minutes stirring well on and off
 then add

 micro mix 3 grams
 magnesium sulfate 25 grams
 potassium sulfate 8 grams

this is added directly to the res of 50 gallons .. just measure the weight and dump the powder in the res

making sure to separate the sulfur salts from the Ca just long enough for it to dissolve


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## bagabones

when I measure I go ahead and do it for several res changes

 I just measure it and put each in its own individual baggy and label it 

 I would have 4 or 5 or whatever sets of pre-measured baskets containing each of the salts in individual baggys , so when its time for a res change the weighing is already done and ready... I just dup it in the res


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> I don't use CalMag in veg
> 
> 
> Another GHE ratios that I've used in veg is 3g :2m :1b
> 
> What is your micro mix ?
> Do you keep your micros pre mixed in salt form ?



3;2;1 will yield less Mg since youd be using less bloom


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## bagabones

View attachment pic3.png


 this is what I would recommend to you


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## bagabones

since you said you like the 1:1:1 ratio if G:M:B of GH that's what I recommend to you.. if you want my 2 cents

imho  the N could still be slightly higher but that's a good ratio


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## bagabones

multifarious since you like the Hoagland

 I would mix it like this

View attachment nute chart 5.png


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## bagabones

If it was me... I would mix the Hoagland flower formula like this

although personally I like to get the iron up a bit more 1.8 to 2ppm keeps nice and dark green... anything over 2.0 ppm I start to see zinc lock out


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## bagabones

altgarden.com has a liquid iron supplement they call "just iron"

 I believe its chelated 5% 

 and I believe (for what ever reason) it actually lowers the ph when mixed.. I assume its got some kind of buffer maybe idk

 buts its reasonable priced if you didn't want to buy the dry and all that


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## bagabones

keep in mind this is based on my experience in my garden in rockwool

 so there may be differences in nute requirements for deep water culture

 I would guess there relatively small differences but still 

 either way I think you could do with some additional Mg and maybe a little Ca unless your source water is loaded


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## bagabones

View attachment pic6.jpg


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## bagabones

here is a pic of what hydro buddy looks like... I simply punch in the numbers I want for each element down the left column

tell the program if I want and A&B 2 part or direct addition to the res 
how many gallons I want to make

click "carry out calculation"

and the program will provide the exact amount of each raw powder dry fertilizer to make the requested ratio


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## bagabones

so I used the first spread sheet to figure out what the General hydroponics 3 part actual feeding ratio and then 

 I went to hydro buddy to copy it

 so you can mix your own fertilizer to match any of the brands sold at the hydro store

 if you like advanced nutes.. then pulg it in and make your own
 if you like general hydro .. make your own

 and without the risk of snake oils like PGRs that cause illness that they sneak in to most of there stuff


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## hippy59

im gonna take a look at this program and will likely have a ton of questions. I grow in cocoa so should be similar to you


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## hippy59

bagabones said:


> major elements I use
> 
> all of which can be purchased at crop king or custom hydro nutrients or at your local farmers co op
> 
> calcium nitrate yara green house grade
> magnesium nitrate
> potassium nitrate
> mono potassium phosphate
> 
> potassium sulfate
> magnesium sulfate (aka Epsom salt)
> 
> potassium chloride
> 
> then you have the micros
> 
> you have 2 options
> 
> A) use a micro nutrient mix that is pre-blended / good for directly adding into res (not good for concentrated liquid premix)
> 
> B) measure each micro nutrient individually (only method for mixing liquid concentrates)
> 
> 
> 
> most hobby gardeners who mix there own use the direct addition method
> 
> most commercial garden farmers use at least 2 injectors with a 2 part concentrate, one injector per consentrate
> 
> like this;
> http://www.gemplers.com/product/WEB192225/Dosatron-Fertilizer-Injectors
> 
> if you got the $1000 the injectors are the boss
> 
> no more res changes no more ph adjustment no more root disease no more air stones no pump except your well pump if your on a well
> 
> example of 2 part injector system:
> 2 trash can each holding 30 gallons of concentrate
> the mixing ratio is 1:128 which is 1 oz per gallon
> 
> meaning it takes 1 ounce of each of the 2 concentrates to make 1 gallon of nutrient solution
> 
> all together youll get 3840 gallons of solution for what might cost $25 maybe...
> honestly the raw salts are so cheap and last so long ive never done the math to compare the cost of store bought junk


 
 is this the type of thing for a small gardener to use? like 10-12 plants at a time? ( in cocoa )would this be a complete nute solution? I will be mixing about 10 gallons at a time based on what they consumed on average during the smaller runs. I have just over a year under my belt doing smaller grows tring to work all the little bugs out.


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## bagabones

mixing direct addition is difficult in small reseviors of less than 100gallons

 you could mix a concentrate and cut it but it would prevent you the ease of changing the ratio thru out

 if you switched to a drain to waste system and mixed larger batches of nutes it would make more sense

 one of the benefits is I don't ever have root rot... my roots are as white as white the day I harvest

 the other benefit to me is I don't worry about adjusting the ph except 1x and it stays where I set it... so I don't need to check on the garden as frequently

 the larger the res... the less frequently you need to check it


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## bagabones

10- 12 plants of what size?

 whats the space and how many watts?

 if your growing monster size plants and not running organic and have the space for a large tank

 then drain to waste is for you


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## bagabones

really its about the tank size

 you could get a 100+ gallon tank (which would last a while)

 mix your own direct addition nutes

 let it drain to waste

 and spend less on fertilizer

 have healthier roots and plants

 if you only use 100 gallons every 2 weeks then you could adjust your ratio thru each 2 week period

 for example for the
  first res (weeks 1+2 ) you might feed npk  100-40-120
 second res (weeks 3+4) npk 80-50-120
 third res (weeks 5+6) npk 60-60-120
 firth res (week) 7+8 npk 50-65-130

 or something like that

 I would sit in front of the scale weighing in grams  all four res changes
 for the entire grow up front before I begin flower

 using baggies and bags separating and labeling each week

 so when the res is close to empty I just add another 100 gallons and dump in the bags appropriately 

 set my ph and I done for 2 weeks 

 100% healthy roots no need for hygrozyme or anything like it

 no chance in using products that have plant growth regulators hidden in them

 also another wonderful benefit... your res stays clean

 the nute mix is crystal clear or slightly foggy clear and your res will not need to be cleaned except 1x between grows





 youll need a descent size air pump for 100 gallons

 the glass air stones are worth the money

one more thingy... if you wanted you could set your plants on the floor without having to worry about draining nutes back into the res your able to keep the pots very low to the floor


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## bagabones

you will likely end up using about 1/3 more water running dtw

something else to consider

you could get more prolific growth mixing your coco to drain faster and watering more often while using the drain to waste (DTW)

the ferts become so cheap 

a faster draining medium would allow you to water more frequently and end up requiring a lower EC or ppm and provide more O2 to the roots

watering more frequently will create them to eat more .. as long as you can keep the medium from being soggy

but rockwool might be better suited for this type of thing... I have no experience with coco

if I was running coco I might be more interested in trying some organics

but for me in my experience organic and hydro don't mesh well


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> While I'm very excited about the prospect of using raw salts and have read into mixing my own 2 or even 3 part nutrient profiles in the past. I'm currently far too busy to look too deeply into this just at the moment, I'm pulling 12hr days harvesting and also preparing to close down both of my grow sites and relocate. I'm busy busy busy.
> 
> 
> I've read about the "Hoaland" formula in the past and know that it's a long standing nutrient dating back to the 1930s, is the profile of Hoaland similar to Lucas that I currently favour ?
> 
> 
> I also personally do not advocate "run to waste" hydroponic systems as far to many nitrates and phosphates are already entering our water sources from intensive farming methods.




 oops I got them crossed.... 

 you are correct dtw might put fractionally more fertilizer waste intot the environment

 you are using 1/3 more water but I could likely use less if I was more thoughtful

I could also switch to coco and use considerably less water

 but also consider I am able to feed a much lower EC than most using this method and that does off set the waste ... not fully

 but I also consider that my waste isn't full of plant growth regulators that have been banned in many states and yet still sold without our knowledge

if the environment is the consideration organic soil is the only real answer... otherwise your waste isn't much different than mine


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> Ive grown in Coco and used much the same watering frequency as I do with rockwool and grew, predominately, organically, veg and marijuana, for over 15yrs before switching to hydroponics for mj.



please don't misunderstand my responses im not looking to argue as I know your not either but I am interested in good conversation and im open

 I respect that your environmentally aware and appreciate it

 I just want you to consider 

 the nutes your adding to your med and your body are made by companies with a long and repeated history of adding toxic chemicals to the products and not telling the consumer or the fda that theyre in fact breaking the law

 for example everyone knows bushmaster and gravity was removed from the market because it was the same poison they use to spray on golf course turf to make it grow in height more slowly to save on maintenance
 costs

 now take a look at the kool bloom powder you've told me you use;

 don't you find is suspect 
 anyone who uses it will tell you "it made my buds harder"
 its directed to be used at the same time of growth as gravity was
 its nutrient make up is not much different than the liquid kool bloom.. so why not just use the liquid... why change to some other ingredient?

 sounds suspect to me

 with my mono potassium phosphate im not putting poison in  my body and in the environment

 100% organic is the only real answer to that dilemma


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> is the Lucas formula profile similar to the Hoaland formula ?


 
 its been a while since I read that material thus my earlier confusion

 I would have to reference it


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## bagabones

I mix a 2 part concentrate for my veg res

 its not dtw...

 since i feed the same ratio in veg from start to finish i mix it to add equal portions of each part until i achieve the desired EC


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> Ive grown in Coco and used much the same watering frequency as I do with rockwool and grew, predominately, organically, veg and marijuana, for over 15yrs before switching to hydroponics for mj.



 then id say you know what your talking about....

 i have personally never grown in coco, but i have read that depending on how you mix it you can to some degree control the saturation and how much water it will hold

 but since i have no first hand experience i really have no place to disagree other than to say ive read different

 but i have also learned you cant always believe what you read


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> while I'm currently happy to talk concepts just at the moment I'm far to busy to look into anything in too much detail.
> Its 7:36am gmt right now, i was out of bed at 5:30 and will be shortly going to work and trimming my harvest for another 12hr shift.



well get some rest and when you wake
 turn up the tunes.. it helps get thru the dullness 

 look at the bright side... your harvesting


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> I'm going to work now, its 07:54hrs gmt



that sucks.. you sound tired and bummed out

 hope youll come back to chat when you get caught up

 after all it was you who inspired/requested me to start this thread


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## bagabones

so I run a 4x4 tray =16 sq ft with a 1000 watt light over 9 plants

 EC max at 1.1

 it has a 100 gln res dtw and it use about 10 glns a day so I get 10 days from 100 gln



 my veg tray is a 2x4 =8 sq ft with a 30 gln res and it recirculates
 over it I have a 400 watt t5 
 I change the res 1 x per 7 days and often top off 1x in the week with 5 gallons +/-

 EC max at 1.5


 I really don't feel like my dtw uses much more than the recirculating veg area

 the only other consideration is 

 the veg water more times in 18 hours of light than the flower tray at 12

and then I run 200 watt t5 over the mom or donor


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## bagabones

multifarious said:


> site 1:
> 
> 8x4 tent 1800w
> 18 6ltr pots
> 200ltr rez
> 
> I may change the rez over twice in 10wks, max
> Otherwise I generally top off by adding my nutrients and topping off with h2o till my desired ec is reached.
> On average, I'd estimate that I've dumped 200ltrs nutes over a 10wks = 20ltr a week waste nutes, some of which is used to water my house plants.
> 
> average 1.2gpw
> 
> Veg:
> 
> 4x2
> 8 bulb T5
> 90ltr rez
> 
> site 2:
> 
> 8x4
> 1800w
> 4 plant scrog, each plant having a 90ltr rez
> 
> 
> veg:
> 
> 600w metal halide
> 90ltr rez



only 5 gallons of waste water

 wow your really on a mission to conserve 

 that's admirable


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## mrnice

Hi bagabones, Good thread but would you know what the 'reverse lucas formula' works out as?
Mrnice


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## bagabones

mrnice said:


> Hi bagabones, Good thread but would you know what the 'reverse lucas formula' works out as?
> Mrnice



im sorry but I don't know what that is?

 if you give me the nute % and dosage I will figure it out for ya


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## bagabones

I tried googling reverse lucas and got very little

 except at rollit up forum had someone talking about it briefly

 I think if memory serves

 lucas is 1:1:2 npk ratio

 so reverse?? 2:1:1 ??

 not for me! I wouldn't run that!


 that would be something like

 N140
 P70
 K70

 to much N for me and not enough K

 personally I wouldn't even run that in veg

sometimes I wonder if some folks don't tell other folks to do weird **** just so they can watch the disaster and then later gloat 

I cant speak for soil... maybe for soil it might be ok idk I don't do soil but certainly not in hydro


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## bagabones

damn... I jst typed a bunch of stuff and poof! lost it
 oh hum I will start again but this time shorter lol

 I have been running my own nutes for about 5 years.. I made a bunch of mistakes and took many gambles experimenting with all kinds of stuff

 ive followed plenty of bad advise from those posting and made plenty of stupid mistakes

 messing with photo periods
 mixing my own plant growth regulators
 raw kelp, fulvic, amino experiemnts
 and a range of nutrient levels trying to find the top and bottom range for each element

 I just recently feel like im getting it right

 I read read read on many forums from 7 or 10 years ago

 and then just stopped the forums.. no more! I got paranoid!

 the illness in my home has risen to a degree that im less afraid to share in this format
  illness will do that


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## Hushpuppy

I may be wrong but it is my understanding that the Lucas formula is using only micro and bloom in a 1:2 ratio of micro:bloom solution, where there is no "grow" used. I would think the reverse of that would be to use micro and grow in a 2:1 ratio of grow:micro solution with no bloom used.

I prefer to use a more balanced approach where I use a 1:1:1 of grow, micro, and bloom during veg. 
I don't know if you use EC or PPM(I use ppm but forget the formula for changing to EC) but I start out at about 300ppm for seedlings then work up to max for veg of about 800ppm. Then when I change over to flower, I increase the bloom each week while "halving" the grow nute until there is no more grow being used by the end of the 3rd week of flower and the micro/bloom being moved to about a 2:1 ratio of bloom:micro in a solution that goes up to about 1200-1400ppm 

I hope this helps you.


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## bagabones

that may be what he meant

 I don't know

 the lucas formula is a formula where the N and P are equal and the K double the N

referring to the amount of elemental PPM of each individual macro nutrient... 

 ratio:  1:1:2 NPK

 example

 60 ppm N
 60 ppm P
 120 ppm K

 to achieve the 1;1;2 ratio with GH nutes

 you could use the micro and bloom only

 this formula can be used with any type of nute that allows this mixture ratio


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## bagabones

so I was wondering how much water I actually use

 so rather than estimating

 I actually collected all my run off for 1 week

 the waste was 45 gallons for a 4x4 with 9 plants and 1000 watts

 running dtw

 that's not really conserving  but I bet most use this much for an ebb n flow or ebb n grow


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## shaggyballs

Very cool subject lets keep it going,I am just learning raw salts!

To those interested.
Cheap place I found for raw salts.
Raw Salts Here


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## bagabones

347 authored by Hoagland and Arnon (1950). This circular has been the most​ widely cited publication in all crop science literature. The scientific literature​ is full of hydroponic formulas that are identified as modified Hoagland nutrient​ solutions with little given that describes what was modified. What most do​ not know is that the Hoagland/Arnon nutrient solution formulations have use​ components, 4 gallons of nutrient solution per plant with replacement on a​ weekly basis. If any of these parameters is altered, i.e., volume of solution,​ number of plants, and frequency of replacement, plant performance can be​ significantly affected, a factor that is probably not fully understood or considered​ by those who recommend a particular nutrient solution formulation. The​ nutrient element contents for Hoagland/Arnon Nutrient Solution


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## bagabones

4 gallons of nutrient solution per plant with replacement on a
weekly basis. If any of these parameters is altered, i.e., volume of solution,​ number of plants, and frequency of replacement, plant performance can be​ significantly affected​


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## bagabones

i suppose plant size, medium type, environmental differences and so  on and on could be factors

 either way... we each do what we do



 I got 9 plants in a 4x4

 4 glns per plant per week in a recirc = 36 glns

 so my drain to waste uses 9 more gallons per week thatn what most would recommend for a recirc system

 keep in mind im watering frequently to maximize growth and I could conserve more

 I also keep my EC at 0.9 during flower while most others are up as high as 1.5.. so while I am using more water I am not using more fertilizer


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## bagabones

i don't subscribe the  Hoagland method so admittedly i can not say it is accurate to a fault

 therefore it is a very good argument that conservation could still result in a favorable result


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## bagabones

since I confused Hoagland and lucas and stenier in my head I have begun reading my book again to refresh my memory


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## shaggyballs

I know a bit about hormones.....would anyone want to school me on NPK ratio and formulation of a 2 part grow and a 2 part bloom in exchange for hormone info???
I know hydro buddy a tiny bit but not really!

shag


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## lyfespan

Subbed


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## shaggyballs

So I am on a page that asks if I wanna talk raw salt, and no one wants to talk salt???HMMM??


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## BrotherMonk

I'd love to talk about salts. I used this stuff a couple times. The first, I added triple the amount that I was supposed to. The results were a disaster. Second time, I used exactly the recommended  and the results were absolutely unbelievable. The plants were the healthiest I have ever seen. It's been hiding under my kitchen sink for about 10 years. Peeking this thread sparked the memory and I went and dug it out. Think I'll be using this stuff again!












BM


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## lyfespan

It's an interesting concept, salts do move water in crazy ways.


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## shaggyballs

Minerals are the key to those salts!


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## Deman

Hey bagabones 
I have been using a raw salts pretty well exclusively for the last two years. I got the recipe from some local growers that got the recipe (so I'm told) from an old Dutch guy years ago. You are one of the few guys I have seen on forums that does the same.
I have to read more carefully through the earlier posts and compare to what I am doing. 
I use five salts and Chelated micronutrien for veg and four salts and the micronutes for bud in varying amounts (depending on veg or bud) 
The recipe requires each ingredient to be dissolved in hot water and added to the res separately. I use 80 gal reservoirs and make batches in full or half strength depending on the stage of growth and adjust PPMs by adding more water to get the strength I want
Here is the recipe for full strength veg and bud (in grams)....lemee know what u think
Calcium Nitrate.        180 g
Potassium Sulphate.  20 g
Potassium Nitrate.     100g
Potassium Phospate.  50 g
Magnesium Sulphate. 170g
Micro Nutes.              20 g

Bud
Cal Nite.                   464g
Pot Sulf.                   144g
No pot nite.               0
Pot Phos.                  124
Mag Sulf.                  300g
Micro nutes.              15g


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## bagman

Deman said:


> Hey bagabones
> I have been using a raw salts pretty well exclusively for the last two years. I got the recipe from some local growers that got the recipe (so I'm told) from an old Dutch guy years ago. You are one of the few guys I have seen on forums that does the same.
> I have to read more carefully through the earlier posts and compare to what I am doing.
> I use five salts and Chelated micronutrien for veg and four salts and the micronutes for bud in varying amounts (depending on veg or bud)
> The recipe requires each ingredient to be dissolved in hot water and added to the res separately. I use 80 gal reservoirs and make batches in full or half strength depending on the stage of growth and adjust PPMs by adding more water to get the strength I want
> Here is the recipe for full strength veg and bud (in grams)....lemee know what u think
> Calcium Nitrate. 180 g
> Potassium Sulphate. 20 g
> Potassium Nitrate. 100g
> Potassium Phospate. 50 g
> Magnesium Sulphate. 170g
> Micro Nutes. 20 g
> 
> Bud
> Cal Nite. 464g
> Pot Sulf. 144g
> No pot nite. 0
> Pot Phos. 124
> Mag Sulf. 300g
> Micro nutes. 15g


 
hello there... sorry I lost my info and was unable to log in as bagabones so I had to make a new account... its been a while since ive looked at this.. it didn't get much traction...

Damen, are you in soil or hydro?

if your in hydro I must assume those measurements are to mix 160 gallons in total??? 

that flower mix for 80 gallons would be;
240 N
92 P
312 K (much to high)

you did mention a concentrate and so it is possible your cutting the 80 gallons in half which would be closer

assuming your cutting it in half it would yield

120N (high for flower)
46 P (good)
156K (a little high in my opinion)
Ca 146 (very high)
Mg 47 (a little high but in ratio with the K)
S 102 (way to high)


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## bagman

very high Ca and very high Sulfur will cause issues or at minimum result in frequently needed flushing

I would drop the N down below 80 and possibly lower in late flower

the sulfur and calcium could be half


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## bagman

for flowering 
using only the same elements you mentioned

I would mix 80 gallons
Ca N 150 grams
mpk 80 grams
Mg S 130 grams
K-S 40 grams

and if you want a concentrate double it or even x4

this would make

N 78
P 60
K 130
Mg 40
S 75
Ca 95

again..this is the best I got limiting myself to the elemnts you mentioned.. if you could source some Mg-N and a we bit of K-Cl you could bring the S and P down more 

im guessing this mix would set your EC about 1.5


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## bagman

oops..im sorry, I missed that you have K-N (potassium nitrate) in your veg formula available to you... let me chek the math and see if that changes anything


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## bagman

ok deman for flower
with the addition of the K-N 

I would use

to mix 80 gallons
Ca N 130gr
K-N 30gr
mpk 80gr
Mg-s 130 gr
K-S 15 gr

which will yield

N 80
P 60
K130
Mg 40
S 61
Ca 80

honestly this is a pretty good formula for hydro and the lower Ca and S will bring your feeding EC down requiring less flushing

im not an expert on soil but I suspect the ratios it would work well for soil but potentially a higher EC would be required


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## bagman

shaggyballs said:


> So I am on a page that asks if I wanna talk raw salt, and no one wants to talk salt???HMMM??


 

sorry shaggy... didn't get much interest at first so I went away...im back if youd like to chat a bit about it


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## bagman

Deman said:


> Hey bagabones
> I have been using a raw salts pretty well exclusively for the last two years. I got the recipe from some local growers that got the recipe (so I'm told) from an old Dutch guy years ago. You are one of the few guys I have seen on forums that does the same.
> I have to read more carefully through the earlier posts and compare to what I am doing.
> I use five salts and Chelated micronutrien for veg and four salts and the micronutes for bud in varying amounts (depending on veg or bud)
> The recipe requires each ingredient to be dissolved in hot water and added to the res separately. I use 80 gal reservoirs and make batches in full or half strength depending on the stage of growth and adjust PPMs by adding more water to get the strength I want
> Here is the recipe for full strength veg and bud (in grams)....lemee know what u think
> Calcium Nitrate. 180 g
> Potassium Sulphate. 20 g
> Potassium Nitrate. 100g
> Potassium Phospate. 50 g
> Magnesium Sulphate. 170g
> Micro Nutes. 20 g
> 
> Bud
> Cal Nite. 464g
> Pot Sulf. 144g
> No pot nite. 0
> Pot Phos. 124
> Mag Sulf. 300g
> Micro nutes. 15g


 


for your veg formula its off

personally I wouldnt use these formulas in my set up... EC level that high cause reduced yields and super stretchy plants

for veg I think youd be better off with something like
80 gallons

Ca N 150gr
K-N 70 gr
mpk 50gr
Mg-S 130 gr

no K-S

which would yield
N111
P36
K132
Mg 40
S 53
Ca 95

all of this is assuming your source water isn't high in any particular element

I think you would find these ratios very close to the general hydroponic 3 part except with more Ca and Mg since there formula is light on Ca and Mg


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## bagman

BrotherMonk said:


> I'd love to talk about salts. I used this stuff a couple times. The first, I added triple the amount that I was supposed to. The results were a disaster. Second time, I used exactly the recommended and the results were absolutely unbelievable. The plants were the healthiest I have ever seen. It's been hiding under my kitchen sink for about 10 years. Peeking this thread sparked the memory and I went and dug it out. Think I'll be using this stuff again!
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> BM


 
I don't know what that stuff is... I cant recommend using it with out a break down of what elements are in it... it could be high is certain types of salts you don't want..for example Na which is like table salt

sea salts are not usually for plant use... the salts I speak of are mined from the earth usually cut out of mountains or whatever... not from the ocean


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## Deman

bagman said:


> hello there... sorry I lost my info and was unable to log in as bagabones so I had to make a new account... its been a while since ive looked at this.. it didn't get much traction...
> 
> Damen, are you in soil or hydro?
> 
> if your in hydro I must assume those measurements are to mix 160 gallons in total???
> 
> that flower mix for 80 gallons would be;
> 240 N
> 92 P
> 312 K (much to high)
> 
> you did mention a concentrate and so it is possible your cutting the 80 gallons in half which would be closer
> 
> assuming your cutting it in half it would yield
> 
> 120N (high for flower)
> 46 P (good)
> 156K (a little high in my opinion)
> Ca 146 (very high)
> Mg 47 (a little high but in ratio with the K)
> S 102 (way to high)



Hey Bagman, I am hydro again.
I have used many mediums in the past (rockwool, hydroton, pro mix etc) but have turned to mixing my own "Pro Mix" like medium so I can control the PH better. I use peat moss, vermiculite, worm castings and enough lime to balance the ph properly. I run a top feed hydro system that drains back into the res and I empty and refill weekly.
I have two main grow  rooms offset from each other by a month and each one has an 80'gal res. I mix at 1/2 strength for younger plants and adjust the water added to hit the PPM's I require then go full strength in later stages with the same adjustment with water. ( the total volume in the res may be anywhere from 40 to 80 gals depending on water added to get the ppm I want)


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## Deman

bagman said:


> oops..im sorry, I missed that you have K-N (potassium nitrate) in your veg formula available to you... let me chek the math and see if that changes anything



I bought the last bag available to regular people in my area last year. Apparently salt peter is looked at as a dangerous chemical now.


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## Deman

bagman said:


> for your veg formula its off
> 
> personally I wouldnt use these formulas in my set up... EC level that high cause reduced yields and super stretchy plants
> 
> for veg I think youd be better off with something like
> 80 gallons
> 
> Ca N 150gr
> K-N 70 gr
> mpk 50gr
> Mg-S 130 gr
> 
> no K-S
> 
> which would yield
> N111
> P36
> K132
> Mg 40
> S 53
> Ca 95
> 
> all of this is assuming your source water isn't high in any particular element
> 
> I think you would find these ratios very close to the general hydroponic 3 part except with more Ca and Mg since there formula is light on Ca and Mg



Big thanks for taking the time to look at this. I'm going to try ur recipe adjustments and see how it works.


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