# Baffled! Seeking expert advise...



## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

Hello everyone.
First of all, I'm not a novice grower, and have never really had any problems growing in the past, despite growing indoors in less than ideal conditions (too hot, plants getting to close to the lights, miracle grow, etc...).

I've started growing again at a different location and am totally BAFFLED with as to why my plants look so unhealthy. After perfectly healthy initial growth, whether from seed or clone, soil-less mix in pots or hydroton in hydro flood&drain, organic (botanicare) or chem (Dutch Master) nutients... new growth will be a very light green/yellow, very small, wrinkled, and curls downward. Vertical growth slows way down. Not quite full sized leaves will wrinkle somewhat as they finish growing, but mature leaves remain perfectly healthy.

Here is my original thread when I first started having the problems that won't go away:

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20958



I've all but ruled out a nutrient disorder. The problem has shown up on both my mother plants in pots (soilless mix w/ organic nutes), as well as closes raised in a flood & drain tray w/ completely different nutes and a different watering schedule. I use city tap water, but I doubt that's the problem as my meters read 60ppm and 6.5-6.8 pH from the tap... is there something I'm not thinking about here? I keep the pH in the 5.5-5.8 range for the hydro and 6.1-6.6 or so for the soilless mix and monitor constantly. Adding fresh nutes doesn't bring any improvement. I've done the usual flush and add fresh nutes to no avail. I usually use nutrients at 3/4 strength. In hydro, I always add nutes to a full res one nute at a time and mix thoroughly before adding another. I'd be very surprised if nutrient lock-out was the culprit. RH is 35%- 70% with an average of 50%-55%.

I feel as though it has to be a disease or something in the air. It doesn't matter what strain I'm growing. I don't see evidence of any kind that bugs are the cause. I was using an ozone generator but turned it off thinking that maybe that had something to do with it, but the problem didn't go away. The problem almost seems to move from plant to plant, starting with the plants that are closest to the door. It really doesn't look like any disease I've ever seen or read about, but I can't rule that out.

It's not because of lighting... 400w HM over a 3x3 tray in veg, moms under a 400w MH in 3 gallon buckets. Flowering moms under 600w HPS and clones in a 4x4 tray under another 600w HPS. I never let the plant get too close or too far away. The lights are in vented reflectors.

The rooms are pretty tight. Both the 8'x8' veg room and the 8'x10' flowering room have IR reflective film on the walls with rubber pond liner covering the floors. Temperature has never been over 85F (28C), or under 57F(14C), with an average of 76F (24,5C) day, and 68F (20C) at night.
The Veg room is 500 cubic feet (14.2 metres cubed) in total volume with a 250cfm exhaust fan drawing spent air though a large carbon filter. Fresh air is supplied via a 6" duct (20 feet long) coming from the outside. Flowering room is 618 cubic feet (17.5 metres cubed) with a 500cfm exhaust fan drawing spent air though another carbon filter with fresh air supplied via another 6" duct (25 feet long). There is some air leakage around the doors that I'm going to take care of shortly so the fans don't pull air from the rest of the attic. Again, plants closest to the door (in either room) get the problem first. Maybe something in the attic? I don't smell anything and work up there all the time. I thought about the ozone and turned it off, but what else? Are the plant getting enough fresh air? I'm not using CO2 (yet). I've got an oscillating fan in each room to move some air around.

I'm totally frustrated. It doesn't seem to matter what I do, the problem still appears. It's been going on for 6 weeks or so. 
I've never had problems in the past, and this time I was really going to do it up right and spend the money on all the cool meters, light hoods, etc... don't even ask how much I've spent on this set-up.
I've all but lost my enthusiasm for growing.

I'm still working on the LONG story of how I got to this point with more detail, but this is all the basics.


Has ANYONE seen this before? Am I missing something???????


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## Kupunakane (Jan 30, 2008)

Yo Ho Green Lantern,
  I hope that maybe this can offer some insight for ya. I borrowed this, cause it is good. http://www.marijuana-seeds.net/Thanks-ThankYou.htm
smoke in peace
KingKahuuna


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

I appreciate it man, but I've looked at those pics at least a hundred times. The solution is the same anyway. Flush, new nutes etc...

Been there, done that.


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## Kupunakane (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey there GreenLantern,
   Sorry bro, I was looking for something that might help ya with your difficulty, So what do you think you got going there ?
smoke in peace
KingKahuuna


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

KingKahuuna said:
			
		

> ...So what do you think you got going there ?



I honestly have no clue. I've tryed everything I can think of, read about, or otherwise. I've had NO problems doing this in past years. This is like an episode of "House" for me... and it's not very fun.


Anyway, here's some new pics that show how the lower leaves are totaly fine (and will remain so) while tha newer growth starts doing its thing.


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## That crazy vancouver guy (Jan 30, 2008)

with what you said about how you are controling all the usual factors (nutes, lights, heat, etc.)... I'm willing to bet you have an external factor that is affecting them... know what I mean?... like some kind of element that is disrupting the grow.

did u wash out all pots/equipment beforehand?... maybe there is a disease or something contaminating the grow... - don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it's your fault or anything... like... maybe something got added to the resevoir that shouldn't and the system is contaminated or something? maybe something in the air?... I mean... it's GOTTA be something....

this is just a thought... just tryna help here....

ask Potus... he's a hydro guru... maybe he can help u out....


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

That crazy vancouver guy said:
			
		

> with what you said about how you are controling all the usual factors (nutes, lights, heat, etc.)... I'm willing to bet you have an external factor that is affecting them... know what I mean?... like some kind of element that is disrupting the grow.
> 
> did u wash out all pots/equipment beforehand?... maybe there is a disease or something contaminating the grow... - don't get me wrong - I'm not saying it's your fault or anything... like... maybe something got added to the resevoir that shouldn't and the system is contaminated or something? maybe something in the air?... I mean... it's GOTTA be something....
> 
> ...



Yeah, I know what you mean... it DOES have to be something, and I am seriously obsessing about it...
It's sooo frustrating, I feel like I've tried everything... short of starting from scratch and seeing if the problem pops up again. But jeeze, I really need to figure this out, if not for the current grow but for future grows... I don't want go through this again.


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## That crazy vancouver guy (Jan 30, 2008)

let's see if we can eliminate the obvious... what kind of nutes r u using?... cuz you do know that because you are not growing in soil, you need to add all the elements required for optimal growth, eh?... when grown in soil, a lot of these elements r present in the soil, so only certain things r required to be added. if you say that starting out, everything is ok, but later on you have probs... maybe the nutes you are using r deficient in these essential elements at advanced stages of growth... just a suggestion....


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

That crazy vancouver guy said:
			
		

> let's see if we can eliminate the obvious... what kind of nutes r u using?... cuz you do know that because you are not growing in soil, you need to add all the elements required for optimal growth, eh?... when grown in soil, a lot of these elements r present in the soil, so only certain things r required to be added. if you say that starting out, everything is ok, but later on you have probs... maybe the nutes you are using r deficient in these essential elements at advanced stages of growth... just a suggestion....



Well, the plants from seed were on botanicare pure blend pro grow with some sweet and thrivealive and 10 weeks old when the perfectly healthy plant started looking bad. One by one. Very slowly. One of the older plants still really hasn't been hit by it much. It's one of the plants furthest from the door, but the branches that are affected are the branches furthest from the door.

The clones of these plants are in hydro trays in the veg room. All were started on the sames nutes as the moms, but mixed accordingly for hydro. After 2 weeks, I switched 1/2 of the clones to Dutch Master's Gold system, which is a complete system when one uses all 5 products. They stress that you add nothing else.
During weeks 3 and 4, clones under both nutrient regimines started to show the problem with the leaves. Just like the moms in the soiless mix in 3gal pots in flowering.


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## That crazy vancouver guy (Jan 30, 2008)

r u growing strictly in hydro?... it'd be interesting to see if a plant in soil is having the same probs, cuz it sounds like an external factor, like I mentioned... I don't know what to say... could also be that I'm stumpted cuz I'm getting looped, but... if I were you... I'd scrap the whole thing and start again. It'd be interesting to see if these probs occur again in both soil and hydro... maybe the directions for the nutes is too strong for the plants, too. I'd suggest to just give straight water and see if things improved, but because you are doing hydro, that is not possible.

I'm getting too blasted to help out any more tonight, non-the-less (right... as if I was helping right now anyways... lol  )

don't know what to say man ( or woman )... all I can suggest is to ask POTUS for help with yer probs.

sorry, friend....


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

That crazy vancouver guy said:
			
		

> r u growing strictly in hydro?... it'd be interesting to see if a plant in soil is having the same probs, cuz it sounds like an external factor, like I mentioned... I don't know what to say... could also be that I'm stumpted cuz I'm getting looped, but... if I were you... I'd scrap the whole thing and start again. It'd be interesting to see if these probs occur again in both soil and hydro... maybe the directions for the nutes is too strong for the plants, too. I'd suggest to just give straight water and see if things improved, but because you are doing hydro, that is not possible.
> 
> I'm getting too blasted to help out any more tonight, non-the-less (right... as if I was helping right now anyways... lol  )
> 
> ...


Hey, I definately appreciate it, seriously...
All of the plants are growing right now, moms from seed in pots, and clones in hydro, with 6 other clones from the same moms still in veg in hydro (new moms). Even these in veg are starting to see the problem, so yeah, the problem is universal in my set up. I need to go to bed...


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## That crazy vancouver guy (Jan 30, 2008)

night man... like I said... ask POTUS for his input... he's the guy you want to talk to... trust me.


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

That crazy vancouver guy said:
			
		

> night man... like I said... ask POTUS for his input... he's the guy you want to talk to... trust me.


Cool, I'll PM him.


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

I picked up a cheap CO2 test kit today and will be checking ppm later after the lights come on to see if they are too low.
There is some negative pressure in the rooms since they are so tight (except about the doors where there is a little bit of leakage), could this lead to any of my problems?


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## snuggles (Jan 30, 2008)

I am having a similar problem, in fact it may be the same. Only new growth, happens in my hydro and soil, but doesn't spread in hydro. It's like the leaves are waxy. I am baffled but having the same problem. Here's the kicker with me, I tried to flower one and it ***** so I just killed the plants with it but I would love to know what and why myself. I have had no luck and I have posted the problem at 2 other sites...no luck.


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## HippyInEngland (Jan 30, 2008)

Are you growing in a room below soil level?


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

HippyInEngland said:
			
		

> Are you growing in a room below soil level?



Like a basement or celler? No. The rooms are in the upstairs attic.


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## snuggles (Jan 30, 2008)

HippyInEngland said:
			
		

> Are you growing in a room below soil level?


I am in a basement. I hope you can help I'm baffled and concerned.


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## POTUS (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey Green Lantern, it's good to meet you man. So far, everything sounds good.

You didn't mention one very important factor.

In the flood and drain system, how long is your flow cycle? How long is your drained cycle?

Also, I noticed that your plants are in individual containers within the flooding chamber. How large are those containers?

Is there any evidence of algae growth?


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## Disco94 (Jan 30, 2008)

Might be bad genetics...


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## Green Lantern (Jan 30, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> Hey Green Lantern, it's good to meet you man. So far, everything sounds good.
> 
> You didn't mention one very important factor.
> 
> ...


Hola POTUS, good to meet you as well...

Good point about flood and drain cycles, especially since I'm new to hydro.
I flood for 15 minutes. Initially the flooding was every 4 hours, but I cut it back to every 6 hours. Those containers are 6" square pots. The bright green pics where clones in 3.5 gal buckets in a flood and drain system in veg. on the same watering schedule. Everything else is in flowering right now.
No evidence of algae growth, but I'll look again.


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## allgrownup (Jan 30, 2008)

How much air are you moving through there?  i see no ducting or fans in any of your pics. I hope your getting a HUGE supply of fresh air into that attic.  what else is in the attic?  blown in insulation?  those plants are not happy about something......


weird.


where is StoneyBud when you need him...eh?


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## Green Lantern (Jan 31, 2008)

allgrownup said:
			
		

> How much air are you moving through there?  i see no ducting or fans in any of your pics. I hope your getting a HUGE supply of fresh air into that attic.  what else is in the attic?  blown in insulation?  those plants are not happy about something......
> 
> 
> weird.
> ...


Yeah, tell me about it. The weird thing to me is how in the past at another house, I never had problems, and the attic in that place was a mess... the growroom wasn't insulated, used a cheap bathroom exhaust fan, and got too hot (100F). I used _rapid grow_ when I could find it and _miracle grow_ when I couldn't. The plants got water stressed now and again and I had trouble keeping the lights high enough as the plants were growing so fast and healthy.
Now I go to sooooo much more trouble and can't seem to get this figured out 

Anyway... I just added a new fan to each of the intake ducts and reduced the exhaust fan in the flowering room. Now the rooms aren't in a negative pressure situation, so hopefully this will help. If negative pressure is bad for plants, then they should be happier than they were...


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## POTUS (Jan 31, 2008)

Green Lantern said:
			
		

> Hola POTUS, good to meet you as well...
> 
> Good point about flood and drain cycles, especially since I'm new to hydro.
> I flood for 15 minutes. Initially the flooding was every 4 hours, but I cut it back to every 6 hours. Those containers are 6" square pots. The bright green pics where clones in 3.5 gal buckets in a flood and drain system in veg. on the same watering schedule. Everything else is in flowering right now.
> No evidence of algae growth, but I'll look again.


 
I use a one hour one, two hours off cycle. With ebb and flow, that's a good method. 6 hours between waterings is too much. WAY to much.

Your plants are starving to death.

I would immediately change it to a 1 hour on 2 hours off cycle. I've used that timing for 20+ years. It works great.

You should see a good change within a week.


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## POTUS (Jan 31, 2008)

allgrownup said:
			
		

> where is StoneyBud when you need him...eh?


 
This has come up a few times now. I guess I should make it clear that POTUS *is* Stoney Bud.

I decided for my own reasons to stop being a Mod. I changed my member name also.

Since Stoney Bud was also a fake name...I prefer to be called POTUS now.

Thanks, and sorry for the confusion.


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## Dubbaman (Jan 31, 2008)

IMO man most everything sounds ok the only concern i have is that you said your using tap water. i did see that its a good pH/PPM for growing but tap water still does have other elements in it that are bad for MJ (chlorine). id say let that water sit out to air out for a day before you use it so this way the bad stuff can evaporate out of the water.


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## Kupunakane (Jan 31, 2008)

Hey there,
  Dubbaman is correct about the chlorine, most good folks have no idea what chlorine does to plants, and how well those same plants would look if they stopped, But there is another water treatment that water facilities use, that cannot be gotten rid of so easily. This is called chloramine, and the only way to deal with this stuff is chemically removing it. 
 Check with your local water company, and see what they are using, if it is chlorine, Then you can do what I used to do. I used a 55 gal. plastic drum with no lid on it, I would fill it, and then use an aquarium bubbler to break the surface tension allowing the water to off gas the chlorine. just my $0.02

smoke in peace
KingKahuuna


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## Green Lantern (Jan 31, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I use a one hour one, two hours off cycle. With ebb and flow, that's a good method. 6 hours between waterings is too much. WAY to much.
> 
> Your plants are starving to death.
> 
> ...



Ok, just got home from work.

Wow, 1 _hour_ on and 2 hours off?
Considering I have no experience in hydro compared to your 20+ _years...
_I'll definately take your word for it. 20 years in hydro? Damn, that's some experience.

I've had a hard time finding any info about timing cycles. I have read, however, that one shouldn't flood for more than 1/2 hour at a time, and most growers flood 4-12 times/day. That's about all I've had to go on. Only now have I been checking on the grow forums (after I set up a proxie server).

With this timing cycle, is this 24/7 or do you flood less often when the lights are out. I've only heard that the plants really don't need the nutes but do like the fresh oxygen that a flood and drain provides.


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## Green Lantern (Jan 31, 2008)

Dubbaman said:
			
		

> IMO man most everything sounds ok the only concern i have is that you said your using tap water. i did see that its a good pH/PPM for growing but tap water still does have other elements in it that are bad for MJ (chlorine). id say let that water sit out to air out for a day before you use it so this way the bad stuff can evaporate out of the water.



Good point, but I will mention two things...
1. Even if the 60pmm TDS in the tap water was all sodium cloride (which I'm sure it isn't), that's still less than 1/2 of what Cervantes says is safe for mj in the grow bible.
2. I've _always_ used tap water in past years and never had a problem... fast, healthy growth w/ big yields.

I know it's not the best thing, but again, at 60 ppm, that can't be what is giving me so much troubble, so I will address that later with a RO system in a month or two.


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## Green Lantern (Jan 31, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I use a one hour one, two hours off cycle. With ebb and flow, that's a good method. 6 hours between waterings is too much. WAY to much.
> 
> Your plants are starving to death...



Obviously I'm in need of some hydro tips...

However... this only applies to the clones in hydro.

My moms aren't starving, but they have the same problem


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## POTUS (Feb 1, 2008)

Green Lantern said:
			
		

> Ok, just got home from work.
> 
> Wow, 1 _hour_ on and 2 hours off?
> Considering I have no experience in hydro compared to your 20+ _years..._
> ...


 
All totaled, I have almost 45 years of growing with about 25 of it growing exclusively in Hydroponics.

If you get 50 people together in a room that have been using Hydroponics for 10+ years each, you'll get 51 different methods of doing so.  

As I said, in my own units, I use a hour on, two hours off cycle, 24/7.

I average a little over a pound of cured, awesome weed from each crop in a 3.5 x 5.5 area using 4 grow chambers.

My method seriously works...

Of course, "they all say that". hehe

Try mine for a week and watch your plants come back alive and go crazy.

Also, do you have "root holes" all the way around each of your individual pots in the hydro? I prefer to not use the individual pots. They detract from root growth and slow the plant down. I fill the entire grow tub with Hydroton and plant each of the plants into that. Then I flood up to two inches below the top of the Hydroton so algae doesn't grow.

Good luck to you man.


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## Green Lantern (Feb 1, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> Also, do you have "root holes" all the way around each of your individual pots in the hydro? I prefer to not use the individual pots. They detract from root growth and slow the plant down. I fill the entire grow tub with Hydroton and plant each of the plants into that. Then I flood up to two inches below the top of the Hydroton so algae doesn't grow.
> 
> Good luck to you man.



Thank you very, very much for your advise.
 Yes, the pots do have "root holes"... I'd try your method of filling the entire grow tub up with the Hydroton, but then I couldn't move the plants from veg to flower (different rooms, of course). I'm using a 3x3 tray in veg and a 4x4 tray in flowering. I will be doing some experimentation once I have things relatively dialed in, so I may try that with a 2x3 tray that might fit through the doors.


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## POTUS (Feb 1, 2008)

Green Lantern said:
			
		

> Thank you very, very much for your advise.
> Yes, the pots do have "root holes"... I'd try your method of filling the entire grow tub up with the Hydroton, but then I couldn't move the plants from veg to flower (different rooms, of course). I'm using a 3x3 tray in veg and a 4x4 tray in flowering. I will be doing some experimentation once I have things relatively dialed in, so I may try that with a 2x3 tray that might fit through the doors.


 
Why not just change the lights and/or timing of the lights in the rooms? Either tray will work for both processes. If you leave the plants where they are and just change your lights and timing, the plants wouldn't have to be moved and wouldn't have that stress in their lives.

As for the flooding of the grow chambers, that part of Hydroponics is a known science with no doubt in it.

Plants in Hydroponics will grow without part of the "perfect" process, but they suffer for it. If you make everything as it should be, your plants will grow like crazy with no problems.

The entire root mass is capable of absorbing nutrients and water. Each root and every part of each root can do this. What this tells you is that if you supply water and nutes to each root, the plant will absorb and use them. As a result, the plant will grow to it's best possible growth.

You should fill the grow chambers until they are full just out of sight of light. This is to prevent algae growth. If water or water and nutrients become visible to light, algae will grow like crazy and whack out your entire system.

Your reservoir needs to be of sufficient size to allow you to completely flood your grow chambers to within two inches of the top. If it isn't, you need to up-size it.

No more than 1/3 of the total volume of your reservoir should remain in the reservoir when the grow chambers are full. This will prevent the nutrient solution from getting outdated and will also help aerate the water.

Good luck man. You should see a great improvement in your plants health very soon. Let me know.

Take care,

POTUS


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## Green Lantern (Feb 1, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> Why not just change the lights and/or timing of the lights in the rooms?



Because I have mothers in perpetual veg to take clones from.


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## POTUS (Feb 1, 2008)

Green Lantern said:
			
		

> Because I have mothers in perpetual veg to take clones from.


 
I do that as well. However, I only use one room for vegging my crops and flowering them. In the other room, I have my clones rooting and my Host plants.

I grow my Host plants in soil. It grows them slower, and that's what I want. Otherwise, I end up throwing out a lot of cuttings.

I use a 250 watt Flo lighting system for my Host plants and a 150 watt HPS for my clones while rooting. Then I transplant them into the grow room for vegging. When they're 18 inches tall, I change my lighting to 12/12 and flower.

Why do you use two rooms for vegging and flowering your crops? Man, I get a pound out of mine on each crop. I'm down to one crop a year now. I can't smoke a pound a year.


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## That crazy vancouver guy (Feb 1, 2008)

so make an extra chamber with cfl lighting for clonning and sustaining mothers in.


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## Green Lantern (Feb 2, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I do that as well. However, I only use one room for vegging my crops and flowering them. In the other room, I have my clones rooting and my Host plants.
> 
> I grow my Host plants in soil. It grows them slower, and that's what I want. Otherwise, I end up throwing out a lot of cuttings.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I'm going to have to pay much more attention to these forums for the great advise. In the past I only had one room and always wished for two for the flexability. I'm always trying new strains and methods, tinker with some breeding, etc... so the flexability of always having one room in veg and one in flower is why I chose this set up. It's never been about trying to get a huge yield, although between me, friends and family I need to supply approx. eight med users (myself included, I've got nerve damage from a C5-6 spinal cord injury, bad insomnia, and am OCPD... Thank God for this magical herb). That said, you guys have great ideas, and has got me thinking... I really like the idea of not using pots in the hydro tray and not moving the plants, so I'm going to work on getting to that. I'm in the middle of a ten day job right now, so my time is limited and can't really do anything about it right now (ten days _straight, 10 hours/day,_ I'm at work as we speak)  with other jobs comming up.The brain is a little fried, and not in a good way.


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## Green Lantern (Feb 2, 2008)

That crazy vancouver guy said:
			
		

> so make an extra chamber with cfl lighting for clonning and sustaining mothers in.


 
hmmmm, yet another good idea....


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