# lights wont turn on



## greenfriend (Jan 18, 2009)

Hi all, I am running a MLC-8 lighting controller (8 240V outlets). I have run a 40 amp line from my subpanel. the controller has a 120V trigger cable which is connected to a standard timer which turns the controller and lights on/off. 

when the timer turns on the relays in the controller turn on, but the ballasts and lights dont because it trips the breaker. I have gotten the lights to work by unplugging the ballasts then plugging them back into the controller when the relays are already on

I just had new 40 amp double pole breakers installed so I dont think theres a problem with the breaker, but i could be wrong. Is this a problem with the controller? the breaker? i cant keep manually turning the lights on/off every 12 hrs 

Thanks!


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## papabeach1 (Jan 18, 2009)

the question you typed in.. I was skeptical to answer it.. but good news I handed the question you typed to my bro.. and here what my bro said..

the problem is probably in the lights that you are using, older fluorescent type lights use a far less efficient ballast that will get quite hot and very quickly too, where I u.....I would look into replacing the lights themselves, or at the very least the ballasts.....another option is to buy a remote unit,,,this may or may not solve the problem....remote units ignore safety protocol on most appliances and force them to turn on or off.. hope that helps.


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## mendo local (Jan 18, 2009)

My first question is, What size wire did you run form the breaker to the MLC8?


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## mendo local (Jan 18, 2009)

If the wire isnt the right size. the start up load could be causing a problem.
Let me know.


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## HydroManiac (Jan 18, 2009)

Only reason you trip a breaker is if your taking out to much juice


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## mendo local (Jan 18, 2009)

Breaker tripping occurs because of the supply wire overheating.


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## Growdude (Jan 18, 2009)

The real question that needs asked is how many and what wattage lights are you using?

Breakers trip for one reason, you have exceeded the amp rating

If supply wires are overheating then there undersized.


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## greenfriend (Jan 18, 2009)

papa - i am running 8 brand new Lumatek 240V 1000W ballasts

mendo - it is 8/3 wire , each ballasts draws 4.5 amps.  The breaker even trips when I only have one ballast connected to the controller, so i thought it might be a problem with the trigger cable from the controller.  it could be caused by the start up load

the subpanel is a 3 phase system with 120V, 120V, 208V legs.  Obviously i am only using the first 2 phases for 240V, yet the breaker only turns off on one of the 120V legs, the other 120V leg breaker remains on


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## 84VW (Jan 18, 2009)

my guess would've been because you have all 8 trying to start at the same time, thats a big draw

but you just said it even does it with one and that tells me its a bigger problem and you might want to look into that before the building burns down

***you say one breaker kicks and another doesnt and both the same style breaker?

well, i would look into replacing that breaker that keeps kicking, maybe its faulty? and they arent that expensive and easy to change out


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## HydroManiac (Jan 18, 2009)

I just went over this with my dad when start any HID light its gonna suck more energy then the bulb 1000watt bulb at start may take up to 2500 watts to start so if your using 1000watt ballast your gonna need alot of juice


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## Growdude (Jan 18, 2009)

greenfriend said:
			
		

> mendo - it is 8/3 wire , each ballasts draws 4.5 amps.  The breaker even trips when I only have one ballast connected to the controller, so i thought it might be a problem with the trigger cable from the controller.  it could be caused by the start up load
> 
> the subpanel is a 3 phase system with 120V, 120V, 208V legs.  Obviously i am only using the first 2 phases for 240V, yet the breaker only turns off on one of the 120V legs, the other 120V leg breaker remains on



Sounds like the trigger is being shorted, thats why it only drops one leg of your 240.
If you have a ohm meter you could test across the trigger of the controller, it should not read shorted.

Is this a new controller?


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## mendo local (Jan 18, 2009)

a 240v 40 amp breaker should not be tripping individual breakers. If it trips it should be both at the same time, maybe you have the wrong breaker.
Also how far away from you main panel is your sub panel. If its more than 30 fett you should have another source of ground other than just the wire.


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## INTHEDES (Jan 18, 2009)

Man your drawing 2 MUCH [email protected] ONE TIME.You need 2 slit up a couple things.1st Id stagger the the ballast/timers(I get away with 2 ballast per timer)2nd Id stagger sockets' that you plug into.8 1000watters could draw up to 20,000 volts 2 start.My friend is employed at an electric company;he tells me that that much juice comming from one spot,for the same amount of time ,starting at the same time every day , comming from a residential house....well it kinda puts up a RED FLAG!He claims they (electric companies)do not really care,as long as you pay your bill-on time.But has told me stories of commercial grow operations who ran off generator,until something went wrong with them.Apon switching from low electric numbers to outragous,then back to low(as the genertatos break,they use city)they send somebody to investigate.Causing a bad situation for the grower.


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## Growdude (Jan 18, 2009)

mendo local said:
			
		

> a 240v 40 amp breaker should not be tripping individual breakers. If it trips it should be both at the same time, maybe you have the wrong breaker.



This is true unless he is only shorting one leg or 120v

This is why I think the trigger is being shorted.


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## Growdude (Jan 18, 2009)

INTHEDES said:
			
		

> Man your drawing 2 MUCH [email protected] ONE TIME.You need 2 slit up a couple things.1st Id stagger the the ballast/timers(I get away with 2 ballast per timer)2nd Id stagger sockets' that you plug into.8 1000watters could draw up to 20,000 volts 2 start..



With the MCL-8 there is no need to stagger ballast and timers.

He is not overloaded as he has stated it happens with only one ballast plugged in.

And no matter what your load is your not going to draw 20,000 volts, volts wont change but there is a in rush of current.


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 18, 2009)

I suggest beefing up the wire to 6 gauge. I was told by CAP that you want a 15-20% buffer for running this unit. I am running the same unit @ 50 amps @120v with 8 600w Lumatek ballast triggered to a CAP XGC-1 with no problems. CAP told me since my ballasts are 120v only to run 120, since the volts are cut in half the unit can now handle 80 amps at start up. I am only pulling 45.875. The six gauge wire will also fit in the MLC-8. And this all running off a single pole 50 amp breaker.


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 18, 2009)

Also make sure you are not having an arc issue inside the controller. Open it up an make sure all your connections are clean and tight.


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## NorCalHal (Jan 18, 2009)

Man, thats why I like Intermatic timers.

That is a nifty light controller, but can someone explain how a timer would be set up for this? I just don't see it.
I guess you would say, wire a Intermatic 120 timer to the "trigger"? And the trigger the allows the 240 "juice" to the outlets on the controller?

Am I close or just really high?


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 18, 2009)

Yes the 120v triggers allows power the capacitors. I am wondering if he is using a digital timer or mechanical?


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 18, 2009)

Or dump the controller run 5 independent 20 amp circuits and invest in 5- 2 socket 240 timers to run them.


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## mendo local (Jan 18, 2009)

BuddyLuv said:
			
		

> I suggest beefing up the wire to 6 gauge. I was told by CAP that you want a 15-20% buffer for running this unit. I am running the same unit @ 50 amps @120v with 8 600w Lumatek ballast triggered to a CAP XGC-1 with no problems. CAP told me since my ballasts are 120v only to run 120, since the volts are cut in half the unit can now handle 80 amps at start up. I am only pulling 45.875. The six gauge wire will also fit in the MLC-8. And this all running off a single pole 50 amp breaker.


 
The mlc8 is rated 240v at 40amps. Upping the wire size would be dangerous.
8Gauge wire is rated for 40 amps.

The thing that everyone is overlooking is that on a 40 amp 220 breaker, there are two breakers in one, they should be connected by a tab. If one leg is tripping that means they are not connected. If the breaker tripps you should be resetting both breakers in unison. If one leg is blowing this obviosly isnt the right breaker.
Are you using 2 seperate 40 amp breakers, or one 40 amp double pole breaker?

Also the lights only consume 36amps, there shouldnt be any problem with start up.


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## Growdude (Jan 18, 2009)

mendo local said:
			
		

> The mlc8 is rated 240v at 40amps. Upping the wire size would be dangerous.
> 8Gauge wire is rated for 40 amps.



Ive seen double pole breakers trip one side, i do know what your saying it has a connecting bar, or should.

I hate pickin but uping the wire size is never dangerous, its the load that draws current not the wire. a bigger wire only means it has the capacity to carry more.

Remember the breaker is there to protect the wire not the load.


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 18, 2009)

^thank you. My buddy does commercial HVAC for a living. We have always ran larger wire then what the breaker calls for. His reason is the wire will not get as hot as the smaller wire. The breaker will only allow the load it is rated for to transfer to the wre. This is what he told me and I am no electrician. I am just saying there is some sort of arc issue or short in his system. I am running the same unit at 120v @50 amps without issues. This was also done after a 1 hour phone conversation with the manufacturer and told it was safe to do so.


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## mendo local (Jan 18, 2009)

Growdude said:
			
		

> Ive seen double pole breakers trip one side, i do know what your saying it has a connecting bar, or should.
> 
> I hate pickin but uping the wire size is never dangerous, its the load that draws current not the wire. a bigger wire only means it has the capacity to carry more.
> 
> Remember the breaker is there to protect the wire not the load.


 
Wire and breakers are rated for a reason. Upping the wire size is dangerous because what happens is,

Say your #8 wire is rated 40 amps and your breaker is 40 amps. So you put in a #6 wire which is rated 55 amps.

The reason the breaker trips is because of heat. So if you use a #6 the wire has to get substantially hotter before it will trip the breaker. Which in turn will allow more power to the device when it is trying to operate.

Ill try to explain,

Hold the end of a sewing needle between 2 fingers, then hold a lighter to the other end of it. See how long it takes before you cant hold it anymore.

Then, Hold a nail and repeat the same scenario.

Obviously the needle will be too hot to hold before the nail correct?

So if your fingers were the breaker, which one would you let go of first?

Im just trying to explain this from an electricians point of view. Safety always comes first.


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 18, 2009)

So I am not safe running 6 gauge 3 strand wire with a 50 amp single pole breaker @ 120v? Just asking if you are an electrician.


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## mendo local (Jan 18, 2009)

Thats perfectly safe, thats what the breaker is rated for. I always wondered why they dont make a 55 amp breaker but code calls a 50amp for #6. But I do Wonder what the setup would be used for?

If its NM or UF #6 its rated at 55 amps

If its THHN or XHHW-2 #6 its rated at 75 amps


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 19, 2009)

It is NM or UF 3x6 gauge wire. I bought 8 600w lumateks and was going to run CAP UPN-1 for them but the guy at cap told me to buy a MLC-8a and run 120v instead of 240v to the unit. He said that since the unit is rated for 40 [email protected] 240 dropping the voltage down to 120 would allow for the unit to handle more amps. and the unit already comes with 120v style outlets. He said most digital ballasts will run on either 120 or 240 but the lumateks a not mutlitap and can only run on 120.


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## mendo local (Jan 19, 2009)

well,
 8 600watt lights at 240v is 24 amps
 8 600watt light at 120v is 48amps

Im not sure I understand when he says dropping to 120v would allow the unit to handle more amps. Either way it works for you and that all that matters!


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 19, 2009)

he said beacuse the fuse in the unit is rated for 40 amps @ 240volts.


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## mendo local (Jan 19, 2009)

There is no fuse in the unit.


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 19, 2009)

excuse me that is what I thought he was saying. Eitherway he said that it was rated for 40 amps @ 240 so dropping the voltage would increase the amps the unit could handle. Please correct me if I am wrong. I do not want to burn my house down. I have only been running this unit for a couple days, shoot I haven't even finished assembling the other aero unit yet.


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## mendo local (Jan 19, 2009)

BuddyLuv said:
			
		

> ^thank you. My buddy does commercial HVAC for a living. We have always ran larger wire then what the breaker calls for. His reason is the wire will not get as hot as the smaller wire. The breaker will only allow the load it is rated for to transfer to the wre. This is what he told me and I am no electrician. I am just saying there is some sort of arc issue or short in his system. I am running the same unit at 120v @50 amps without issues. This was also done after a 1 hour phone conversation with the manufacturer and told it was safe to do so.


 

If the manufactuer said its ok, I guess its ok. Myself personally would have used a #8 wire .

If you ever do have a problem, your wire will need to get alot hotter before the 50amp breaker will trip. Thats where things get weird, cause does the breaker trip? or does something melt first?
I dont want to freak ya out, just giving ya the facts.


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 19, 2009)

but I thought 8 gauge is rated for 40 amps. I am pulling almost 46.


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## clanchattan (Jan 19, 2009)

I just looked up the controller and I assume your timer is not on the same circuit as your contactor feed?

4.5a @ 240v = 36a total

36a is 90% of a 40a circuit load.

if yer timer is on the circuit that keeps tripping, the relay that runs your contactor, and the contactors themselves (because they are electrically held)are chewing away at the 10% amperage room you have under your
40a limit. Try moving your timer to a different outlet that's not part of your lighting circuits.

if not

a loose contactor connection would be my first inclination as to why only one pole is breaking ( i guess your 40a breaker is a double pole double throw ). Loose connections eat up amps. Shut down your 240v circuit and use your timer to close the contactors, then take a ohm reading across each contactor pole if one is higher than the rest bingo (also look for scortch marks on the contactor terminals, again bingo). hope this helps


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## Growdude (Jan 19, 2009)

mendo local said:
			
		

> Wire and breakers are rated for a reason. Upping the wire size is dangerous because what happens is,
> 
> Say your #8 wire is rated 40 amps and your breaker is 40 amps. So you put in a #6 wire which is rated 55 amps.
> 
> ...



The way it works is the breaker is what heats up internally and trips, it heats up from to much current.
The heat of the wire does not trip the breaker.

Here is a test for you, a little more scientific than the needle test.

Take a clamp on ammeter with say a #12 on a 15 amp breaker and max it out, see where it trips.

Then put a #10 on the same breaker and do the same, you will see it trips the breaker at the same current as the first test.

It wouldn't make a lot of sence  to make breakers trip from hot wires, the idea is that the wire doesnt get hot.

Here is some reading on how breakers function  http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/circuit-breaker2.htm


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## greenfriend (Jan 19, 2009)

first thank you everyone for all the help!

norcal - you got it right, but ive already got the controller, and the warranty on the lumatek ballasts says do not use certain intermatic timers.

buddy - running 240V instead of 120V actually doubles the amperage you draw - very helpful when running lots of lights.  1000W ballasts @120V will draw 9 amps each.  and the lumateks i have are 240V only

clan - i think ur on to something.  i have used 2 different timers for the trigger cable, so its not the timer, but i will try different outlets to see if putting it on a different circuit helps

growdude - yes the breaker has a connecting bar - when the breaker trips the little bar is twisted to the side, which led me to believe only one leg was breaking

mendo - the run from main to subpanel is 10 ft, then 10 ft from sub to controller.  the controller is new.  i am using 40 double pole breaker as recommend by c.a.p. for over current protection.  but my electrician had to get breakers that also ran the existing 20 amp breakers b/c there were no empty slots in the panel. (the 40 amp breakers fit into the middle of the 20 amp ones - which remain on when the 40 amp breaker is tripped)

i checked all connections on the controller - no arcing

i cannot change wire size - the controller requires 8/3 wire @ 40 amps

another interesting thing - when the breaker trips, the indicator light on the MLC-8 that shows when relays are on remains lit.  so the relays are on even though the breaker is not.

i have a second 40 amp line that was installed for future addition of lights, i will try that one to determine whether the breaker is defective


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## The Effen Gee (Jan 19, 2009)

If you bought this new...from a store, I would return it or take a close look @ you MLC, if the wires are the correct guage than heat caused resistance is not an issue.

I am glad to see that there are folks on the site I can come to with wiring and electrical issues, as I make a really poor electrician.


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## BuddyLuv (Jan 19, 2009)

greenfriend said:
			
		

> another interesting thing - when the breaker trips, the indicator light on the MLC-8 that shows when relays are on remains lit. so the relays are on even though the breaker is not.
> 
> i have a second 40 amp line that was installed for future addition of lights, i will try that one to determine whether the breaker is defective


 
That is because the trigger cable powers the relays.so if the trigger is on a different circut it will still be receiving power to the relays.


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