# myth strains



## Wiseguy_Chef (Oct 1, 2008)

all right heres the deal. around my home town, there is
this strain of weed that is leagary.
it is called mesilla vally maddness. my dad talks about this strain,
uncles an all the old timers from the 70's tell me
about this strain. have any u guys ever herd
of it? from what eveyone says,
the grower disapread in the late 80's.
my dad tells me that stuff would blow your mind.
an leave u layed out for hours.


If u guys got any myth strains or loco strains, you or other growins in
your area have grown postem here, sure other growers 
would not mind trying to make some great hybirds. ​


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## mendo local (Oct 1, 2008)

What about "Black Rosa"?  I have only seen it once. would love to get ahold of it. Its black (not purple) when its mature.


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## time4tokin20s (Oct 1, 2008)

Probably a myth.Most are.Some guys grow some killer weed they grew from bag seed,give it a cool name,and it kind of goes from there.Soon any good weed around then is called that strain.It's all been imported.
Besides why would you want some strain from the 70's when we have so much better strains now


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## SirSmoke-a-Lot (Oct 1, 2008)

because you dont know if they were better or the new strains r better...


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 1, 2008)

SirSmoke-a-Lot said:
			
		

> because you dont know if they were better or the new strains r better...



Since I am old and have smoked for over 40 years, I take these marijuana myth stories with a grain of salt.  While we can't actually know if they were better, we can make a pretty educated guess.  

Those of us that grew up in the 60s have seen huge changes in the quality of marijuana and the THC content.  I don't think there was any "holy grail" of marijuana back then--we were just learning about it.  Virtually ALL the bud you bought back then consisted of stems, seeds, and leaves--you never bought a baggie that consisted only of nice dank buds like you do now.  Sensimillia was not even a word then (or even a concept).

Personally, I view these myths as myths.  Great pot is not an accident.  It comes from years and years of selective breeding by "real" breeders.


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## Wiseguy_Chef (Oct 1, 2008)

time4tokin20s said:
			
		

> Probably a myth.Most are.Some guys grow some killer weed they grew from bag seed,give it a cool name,and it kind of goes from there.Soon any good weed around then is called that strain.It's all been imported.
> Besides why would you want some strain from the 70's when we have so much better strains now


 
u think so huh? well i might not know much about growing but i have hurd of the 7 legerdy strains, an we owe pretty every strain we hold near an dear to us to thies 7 stains.   

my best gess from the area i am from, (close to mexico) was a hybrid of pamama red, alcapico gold or some other mexican strain.


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## time4tokin20s (Oct 1, 2008)

Wiseguy_Chef said:
			
		

> u think so huh? well i might not know much about growing but i have hurd of the 7 legerdy strains, an we owe pretty every strain we hold near an dear to us to thies 7 stains.
> 
> my best gess from the area i am from, (close to mexico) was a hybrid of pamama red, alcapico gold or some other mexican strain.



Same everywhere yo go.Any outdoor strain that's been growing that long(especially near Mexico) has been crossed so many times by different strains it will never be the same.Unless someone's been growing it indoors for 30 years it's gone.


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## kaotik (Oct 1, 2008)

i doubt it would be as good as your dad and other old timers remember.. as hemp godess said, the quality in the hippy years was pretty low THC levels. especially compared to nowadays.

could it possibly be he's remembering something that was so great.. but only because it's an old memory? i don't know how to word it, but things do seem to get better with just memories.

i think if he did actually find some now, he wouldn't think it's that phenomenal (probably question whether it was really it, because it wouldn't come close to what he's bult up (subconciously) in his mind.)


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## godspeedsuckah (Oct 1, 2008)

I am sure the weed was good back then but I have heard too many people say you were picking out tons of seeds before you even rolled a joint.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 1, 2008)

godspeedsuckah said:
			
		

> I am sure the weed was good back then but I have heard too many people say you were picking out tons of seeds before you even rolled a joint.



Yes, we did have to pick tons of seeds out before we could roll a joint.  Pot has gotten continually better as the years pass.  In the sixties you bought 4 finger baggies for $8-10--it had seeds, stems, leaves--we didn't know any better.  In the seventies I bought Mexican compressed into a block--mediocre, but the price was right, $100 for a half kilo.  I had some thai-stick in the 80s that I thought was the ultimate...until i got some stuff from Panama.  Around this time we started to see sensimillia, but we didn't call it that then.  It was just pot without seeds--we were ecstatic.  This is about the time I got interested in growing.  We did it outside--none of this fancy-*** HID lighting.  We grew monsters outside wherever we could.  I had a greenhouse and grew 4-6 plants.  Citrcumstances dictated a hiatus from growing for many years.  When I took it up again, it was a whole different story.  

Pot has evolved.  It has gotten substantially better.  This is one of those things that there is really no debate about.  Anyone who has smoked pot for decades will tell you that this is true.


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## canibanol cannonball (Oct 1, 2008)

what about tomater-jane?


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

I have heard of mendicino madness, which is a very potent strain, that came out of the mendo county of cali, as many well know mendo is a part of the emerald triangle, and they are known for their strong genetics, but this was not around for that long, maybe 10 years, maybe


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

It's really easy to ween out these "myth strains" using only common sense. I don't buy into the idea of quite a few strains. The product has no central regulation, and that leaves people able to basically just make up whatever they want to about it. I've read in several places that it took the better part of two decades to isolate certain mj genetics. If you really wanted to come up with your own stuff, on a purely genetic level, it would require around a thousand plant setup, and dozens of full cycle grows. The only real genetics I trust come out of Holland, and are in the original breeder packaging. Not to say that everything else is bullshoy, but I think its a pretty good little rule of thumb. Just my thoughts...


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## slowmo77 (Oct 1, 2008)

i just wonder why everyone thinks that all high grade strain come from holland?


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 1, 2008)

slowmo77 said:
			
		

> i just wonder why everyone thinks that all high grade strain come from holland?



LOL--I don't think that I ever thought that.  There were great strains from everywhere--Acapulco Gold, Panama Red, Thai Stick, Maui Wowie, Vietnamese, Humboldt County.  It wasn't until the last 25 years or so that I even heard about pot from Holland.  Jeez I'm old...but, dm, I'm glad I don't feel that way!


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

slowmo77 said:
			
		

> i just wonder why everyone thinks that all high grade strain come from holland?



It's not that form of thinking at all. There are some amazing west coast strains out there, but there is no central regulating system behind it. There are people who grow dutch strains, and enter them into the cannabis cup under a different name every year. Because its tolerated in Holland, the breeders basically police themselves. And yes, people get called out on it every year at the cannabis cup. 

I don't believe dutch quality is top notch, I just believe the strains can be trusted more, and are more authentic.


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

Wow fadeux, you are sure missing a lot then if you willing to get seeds from breeders from Holland.  IMO, the last great thing to come out of holland was White widow, and greenhouse released this now quite a while ago.  The majority of strain after that were mainly hybrids of that, and hybrids of hybrids.  Do not get me wrong I have no problem whatsoever with any breeders in Holland, as I feel SOME great Strains have come out of holland, but right now IMO, the most work is being done in North America on the breeding front.

The work that is being done by REZ Dog, Chem Dog, TGA and subcool, orgkid, BCSD, and even Dr.Greenthumb is unrivaled, again IMHO.  Don't get me wrong, soma, simon from serious, and Dj will always do what they do, which is create awsome strains, but this doesn't discredit others in the industry.


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

I would have to disagree with this to the fullest.  Dutch companies are so notorius for stealing other dutch companies genetics and strain naames that Arjan had to copyright his names, and starting naming everything Arjan's everything, hence Arjan's haze, which he must be up to about #27 by now, lol




			
				Fadeux said:
			
		

> It's not that form of thinking at all. There are some amazing west coast strains out there, but there is no central regulating system behind it. There are people who grow dutch strains, and enter them into the cannabis cup under a different name every year. Because its tolerated in Holland, the breeders basically police themselves. And yes, people get called out on it every year at the cannabis cup.
> 
> I don't believe dutch quality is top notch, I just believe the strains can be trusted more, and are more authentic.


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Wow fadeux, you are sure missing a lot then if you willing to get seeds from breeders from Holland.  IMO, the last great thing to come out of holland was White widow, and greenhouse released this now quite a while ago.  The majority of strain after that were mainly hybrids of that, and hybrids of hybrids.  Do not get me wrong I have no problem whatsoever with any breeders in Holland, as I feel SOME great Strains have come out of holland, but right now IMO, the most work is being done in North America on the breeding front.
> 
> The work that is being done by REZ Dog, Chem Dog, TGA and subcool, orgkid, BCSD, and even Dr.Greenthumb is unrivaled, again IMHO.  Don't get me wrong, soma, simon from serious, and Dj will always do what they do, which is create awsome strains, but this doesn't discredit others in the industry.



Fair enough, but to what assurance do you have that you are actually getting that strain? The honest answer is that you simply don't know. If you pick up a copy of "Marijuana Botany" and learn just how hard and time consuming it is to create your own strain, you will understand that there is quite an excessive amount of wiggle room in these things. It took the better part of 2 decades to come up with White Widow. You don't just pollinate that with another stable strain like Northern Lights and come up with "Super weed." Genetics dont work that way. I have breeders I trust, and seedbanks that I trust. Allow me to give you an example.

Dope-seeds.com. I ordered a strain from them a few months ago. Their  website said they had it in stock. a week later, I received an email from the owner saying that was a typo, and he wanted to know how to work it out with me. We worked it out, and I received something else I fancied. Were he a shady operator, he would've just sent me something similar. 

I am not saying the dutch have the best strains, but I am saying that its ILLEGAL to sell seeds in the US, and when you are dealing in that form of black market, you really never can be sure of what you are getting. Were Merlot and Cabrenet illegal in the US, how many people do you think could tell the difference. Hell, how many people do you know that can tell the difference today (while its LEGAL)

Just my thoughts...


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> I would have to disagree with this to the fullest.  Dutch companies are so notorius for stealing other dutch companies genetics and strain naames that Arjan had to copyright his names, and starting naming everything Arjan's everything, hence Arjan's haze, which he must be up to about #27 by now, lol



Disagree all you want, you still make my point for me. There is ZERO centralized regulation in this industry. The only question I ask is how do you know you are getting the strain you pay for? You don't. The only real comparasion I can make is with Italian wine. The only Super Tuscan you can buy HAS TO BE MADE IN TUSCANY. But there are plenty of american vineyards that can market "Super Tuscans," If its not from Italy, its NOT a super tuscan. If this kind of stuff can happen with wine, what hope do we have for geniune MJ strains?


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

What makes it any different getting a strain from Amsterdam?  So are you questioning the moral standards of breeders in North america.

Why is it that you think that the dutch have such a great position on selling Seeds?  Honestly you are not really making sense


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

What are you talking about?  Thanks for the lesson on breeding, LMAO, once again, are you saying that the dutch have more intelligence then North americans?

Why anyone would want to order anything from a site named dope-seeds.com is beyond me, but what does dope seeds have to do with the seeds breeders?  They are retailers, not breeders.

YOu have got to get more informed before you make comments like you make, with the information you have.




			
				Fadeux said:
			
		

> Fair enough, but to what assurance do you have that you are actually getting that strain? The honest answer is that you simply don't know. If you pick up a copy of "Marijuana Botany" and learn just how hard and time consuming it is to create your own strain, you will understand that there is quite an excessive amount of wiggle room in these things. It took the better part of 2 decades to come up with White Widow. You don't just pollinate that with another stable strain like Northern Lights and come up with "Super weed." Genetics dont work that way. I have breeders I trust, and seedbanks that I trust. Allow me to give you an example.
> 
> Dope-seeds.com. I ordered a strain from them a few months ago. Their website said they had it in stock. a week later, I received an email from the owner saying that was a typo, and he wanted to know how to work it out with me. We worked it out, and I received something else I fancied. Were he a shady operator, he would've just sent me something similar.
> 
> ...


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

and by the way yes you do take 2 stable P1 to make a super F1, meaning yes if you take white widow and pollinate a stable northern lights female, then you get a F1 hybrid, which is what most people buy from Amsterdam, you only have IBL's and hybrids


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> What makes it any different getting a strain from Amsterdam?  So are you questioning the moral standards of breeders in North america.
> 
> Why is it that you think that the dutch have such a great position on selling Seeds?  Honestly you are not really making sense



In Amsterdam weed is tolerated. They give you a menu. It is an economy. If you suspect a strain isnt kosher, that business will lose their reputation. Breeders have to rely on their reputation to make money. In the US, the market doesn't even exist. Well, let me rephrase. The market exists, but has zero regulation. If you buy an eighth of trainwrek in LA, how do you know its actually trainwreck? Perhaps if you are at a club, but then the rules of my Amsterdam theory still applies. If you buy trainwreck seeds, how do you really know they are trainwrek seeds? Obviously, its impossible without an intimate relationship with the breeder. 

There are great strains all over the world, but what do you use as your own personal evidence that the genetics you are getting are exactly what you are paying for? If you really want to get into the "strain game" let me know what criteria you use to determine if what you are getting is legitimate product. I know where I am, there are no ways of doing that, that is why I trust Holland breeders, they have nothing to lose, and everything to gain.

Let me know exactly how I "am not making sense" and I will try to answer that...


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> What are you talking about?  Thanks for the lesson on breeding, LMAO, once again, are you saying that the dutch have more intelligence then North americans?
> 
> Why anyone would want to order anything from a site named dope-seeds.com is beyond me, but what does dope seeds have to do with the seeds breeders?  They are retailers, not breeders.
> 
> YOu have got to get more informed before you make comments like you make, with the information you have.



You need to settle down... These are my opinions, and if you don't like them, lets discuss them in a civil manner. 

I just want you to tell me how you can trust ANY genetics from ANYWHERE... Thats all... No need for you to LYFAO.... Where do you order from? Where are the best seeds in the world? Please enlighten us. Do you care more about being right then about truth? Cause if you are right, I want to learn. We cant do that with pitiful little things like you LYFAO....


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> What makes it any different getting a strain from Amsterdam?  So are you questioning the moral standards of breeders in North america.



Not at all. Just questioning the regulation of it. If you buy an eighth of something from someone in North America, what guarantees do you have that it will actually be that? A name is just a name. With no centralized regulation, you have NO idea that it will be that. It works the exact same parallel as wine, if you don't understand that, there is no need to mock me.


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

the truth, you have got to go back and read your own truths, you came into this thread talking you should only get seeds from the dutch because getting them from anywhere else is risky. lmao

You do not even know the difference between a seed breeder and a seed retailer, i have not heard you state any actual seed breeders that are unreliable in North america, you instead are making general statements, that as I said make no real sense.  So if you think that a seed company in Amsterdam sold you the wrong strain, who do you call the better business bureau?  Like come on, you are talking about buying trainwreck buds at I am guessing a dispensary, and comparing that to buying seeds from the breeder of trainwreck?  There is no corrolation, there whatso ever, unless the person selling you the seeds is the person selling you the buds, which is not the case.

There are great breeders all over the world, but right now the best and rarest genetics are coming out of North america, wheather that be BC, Cali, Oregan and even New England.  I am not talking about buying buds from these places, I am talking about where the actual seeds are breed.

And do not tell me to settle down, when you come on here peddling nonsense, with not one fact to back anything up


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

Now this is what i mean, we were talking about breeders and now all the sudden it is about coffee shops, I do not live in amsterdam or cali, so I do not go to dispensaries or coffee shops, i am however a Federal Canadian medi grower, with quite a few years of growing experience, i have grown quite a few strains, from Afgan to white widow.  So it is not important and I have no real opinion on who has the best buds to buy, i am concerned with who has the best strains that I can grow



			
				Fadeux said:
			
		

> Not at all. Just questioning the regulation of it. If you buy an eighth of something from someone in North America, what guarantees do you have that it will actually be that? A name is just a name. With no centralized regulation, you have NO idea that it will be that. It works the exact same parallel as wine, if you don't understand that, there is no need to mock me.


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

and if you know your strain well enough it is really not that hard to know if you are growing what you bought, all strains have distinct growth traits and characteristics


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> the truth, you have got to go back and read your own truths, you came into this thread talking you should only get seeds from the dutch because getting them from anywhere else is risky. lmao
> 
> You do not even know the difference between a seed breeder and a seed retailer, i have not heard you state any actual seed breeders that are unreliable in North america, you instead are making general statements, that as I said make no real sense.  So if you think that a seed company in Amsterdam sold you the wrong strain, who do you call the better business bureau?  Like come on, you are talking about buying trainwreck buds at I am guessing a dispensary, and comparing that to buying seeds from the breeder of trainwreck?  There is no corrolation, there whatso ever, unless the person selling you the seeds is the person selling you the buds, which is not the case.
> 
> ...



So, again, i will ask, where is the best place for us to buy seeds? I am not saying by any means that the Dutch are the most reputable, but I believe in free-market, and feel they have the most regulation.

If you have a legitimate argument, I would love to hear it, but this "lmao" nonsense is just juvenile. 

What can I say, I trust dutch breeders more than most. Sorry if you don't like it, but I would like a better argument than "lmao" Understand thats not an argument. 

Explain to me how I am peddling nonsense. Explain to me how I am wrong. You haven't really done that yet. You've explained how there are plenty of great North American Breeders. I am sure there are, but how do you authenticate their product? Its a simple question, but instead of actually answering it, you resort to lame internet acronyms and claim victory. I have my own personal preference, and Im cool with it, but you mock what I say, and don't actually answer my questions. So, my com padre, what makes you right? Thats all I am really asking. Where SHOULD I get my seeds from, and what reason do I have to trust them? 

Oh, and if you cross Northern Lights with White Widow, you really aren't doing any sort of genetic engineering, you are just cross-breeding genetically stable strains.


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## Fadeux (Oct 1, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> and if you know your strain well enough it is really not that hard to know if you are growing what you bought, all strains have distinct growth traits and characteristics



So how do you know those traits unless you but them from a verified breeder/bank? Are you an expert on every plant you have brought to fruition? How do you verify the breeder? How do you verify the bank? Just answer the questions and youll win very easily...


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

Fadeux said:
			
		

> Oh, and if you cross Northern Lights with White Widow, you really aren't doing any sort of genetic engineering, you are just cross-breeding genetically stable strains.


 
Isn't this what you just said that you don't do????  I never said anything about genetic engineering, you said this is not how strains are made and i said actually yes it is, then to stablize the traits of that strain, you selective breed the offspring, I have created several IBL's and have been breeding for a number of years, I have a copy of MJ Botony, and had it as well for years, so please you do not have enough experience to be lecturing me on breeding.

Like I said buying from reputable breeders, it is not hard to tell if you are growing the sour diesel that you paid for, based on growth traits, characteristics and aroma, it is actually rather easy.

BUT as I said to you, how are you safer buying seeds from holland?


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## massproducer (Oct 1, 2008)

Fadeux said:
			
		

> So how do you know those traits unless you but them from a verified breeder/bank? Are you an expert on every plant you have brought to fruition? How do you verify the breeder? How do you verify the bank? Just answer the questions and youll win very easily...


 

You are buying seeds based on the traits and characteristics of the strain, you do not just buy cannabis seeds?  So if you are buying based on what the plant should or could look like then...what makes it hard to know that this plant is growing totally different then stated and then others that have grown it.

Do you truly think that reputable breeders and even seed banks in NA, do not have to worry about reputation?  Like they can just rip people off and stay in business because they are in North america, that is what is non sense, like just think about it.

No i never claimed to be an expert on every strain, but you can be sure that I have done massive amounts of research on both the breeder and strain before i even consider buying it, I would think that any smart consumer would.  

Once again dealing with reputable breeder, their is information regarding them and their products everywhere, you are typing on the internet now, search it for information.

By the way this has nothing to do with winning anything, and you are right it is your opinion, but you have to understand that your opinions are being left on a public forum, I feel that your opinions are not based on facts, so I called you on it, so everyone that reads this after us, and there will be people, will be able to make an educated decision on wheater to believe yours or my redderick


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## Fadeux (Oct 2, 2008)

You win. I am done with this conversation. You aren't actually explaining anything, you just care more about being right. Everyone LISTEN to this guy, he obviously knows what he's talking about. I still have yet to see a seedbank he thinks we should buy from.

I am not  saying I am right friend, I just want you to answer my questions. 

So you are a great breeder, and I am just a student. Fantastic, actually teach me something instead of just saying what a great breeder you are. I won't argue with you anymore, I am tired of the "pissing contests" on here.  I dont know anything about breeding. You WIN. You totally win. Congrats. You are a great breeder. The only question I am asking is, how, in a black market, do you validate your product. You've gone several posts without answering that question. If you come up with a great strain, and people want to order it from seedbanks, how do they actually know they are getting that?

The truth is, no one does. They don't even get that with wine in todays market. Guess what, Wine is LEGAL. MJ is not. So fantastic for you, but it doesn't do the rest of us much good. So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, stop LYAO, and tell us

WHAT ARE THE BEST SEEDBANKS FOR US TO ORDER FROM!?

Its an honest question. I have shown you my opinion, and you dont seem to care, you just mock, and make jokes. If I can learn from you, fantastic, thats all I need, but you just keep stabbing back, as though its all you know.


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## Fadeux (Oct 2, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> You are buying seeds based on the traits and characteristics of the strain, you do not just buy cannabis seeds?  So if you are buying based on what the plant should or could look like then...what makes it hard to know that this plant is growing totally different then stated and then others that have grown it.
> 
> Do you truly think that repuable breeder and even seed banks in NA, do not have to worry about reputation?  Like they can just rip people off and stay in business because they are in North america, that is what is non sense, like just think about it.
> 
> ...



So please, give me ONE example of a N.A. Seedbank we can buy from in the US. Give me one example of ANY seedbank we can buy from AROUND THE WORLD.


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## massproducer (Oct 2, 2008)

You truly must be slow or something, we were talking about breeders, because i have an alright relationship with a few breeders, I get my beans directly from them.

What seedbank you should use is all about what companies seeds they sell and what you want, which I have no idea because first you are talking in general.  What do you want explained how to look for greenmans page where he has listed all popular seedbanks, with ratings.  You do not know how to search the internet for information?

gypsi, doc chronic, hemp depot, like man you have got to be more useful then this, you can not even search for freakin seed banks??????

Please, please explain to me where I said and talked about being a great breeder?  I would never say that as consider myself an amature breeder, this is not my job, i have a career,  so please do not put words in my mouth


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## massproducer (Oct 2, 2008)

You say that I know your opinion, your opinion on what? So what is the best seedbank and breeder in holland? Because everything you say is in general, but then you want your questions answered specifically

The fact is that you have no said one specific thing in this entire time


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## massproducer (Oct 2, 2008)

You just do not get it... That is not how it works, you can not just call up doc and say well you do not know me, i have no reputation, but will you sell my seeds for me?  Sorry but it just doesn't work that way... Firstly before any reputable seedbank will deal with you or your product they are going to test the quality control, but before you ever get to that point they need to develop a repuation within the industry




			
				Fadeux said:
			
		

> If you come up with a great strain, and people want to order it from seedbanks, how do they actually know they are getting that?
> 
> The truth is, no one does. They don't even get that with wine in todays market. Guess what, Wine is LEGAL. MJ is not. So fantastic for you, but it doesn't do the rest of us much good. So PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, stop LYAO, and tell us
> 
> WHAT ARE THE BEST SEEDBANKS FOR US TO ORDER FROM!?


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## massproducer (Oct 2, 2008)

it is funny how i answer every single question you asked but as soon as I asked you to clearify, you decided to do a David Blaine, and you actually have the nerve to say that I didn't explain anything, I explained everything.


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## Dexter (Oct 2, 2008)

Amsterdam is the past, Better sh** going on all over the shop


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## kaneboy (Oct 2, 2008)

so what if you dont no if the strain is really its true name?how do you know that the strain you think is what what you think is really sum thing else?when alls said we all will be better off with all these strains and go into breeding with other strains and think we make sumthing new so be it


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## Disco94 (Oct 2, 2008)

Just high and can't look through the posts.  Does the rest of the EU have "Myth Strains" or is just us "Yanks"?


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## canibanol cannonball (Oct 2, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Now this is what i mean, we were talking about breeders and now all the sudden it is about coffee shops, I do not live in amsterdam or cali, so I do not go to dispensaries or coffee shops, i am however a Federal Canadian medi grower, with quite a few years of growing experience, i have grown quite a few strains, from Afgan to white widow.  So it is not important and I have no real opinion on who has the best buds to buy, i am concerned with who has the best strains that I can grow



Federal Canadian Medi Grower?
Tell me everything, I've never heard of FCMG eh? Can i google it?


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## massproducer (Oct 2, 2008)

Up here in Canada we have a Federal medical marijuana program administered by health Canada, so that means that the provinces have no say in what we do, I can possess certain amounts on my person anywhere in canada, I can legally grow up to 25 plants right now based on my gram per day ratio, and can store almost 2 pounds in reserve.

Just google "medical marijuana Access Division Health Canada"


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## Hick (Oct 2, 2008)

Geeze guys.... this 'could' actually be an educational and informative discussion. Why must we aggrevate and berate?..
  I can see "both" points. IMO..Faudex is correct in the fact that there is no "regulatory commission", no control, noone overseeing either 'breeders' OR 'seed makers'. ONLY the consumer. And there are a good percentage of consumers out there, that quite frankly, wouldn't know white widow from bluberry, from cali ornge, from G13..... and probably don't even 'care'. As long as they are able to produce a good product themselves, and "say" "I'm smoking G13". Not all!.. but there is a good percentage. 
Their reputation and their "own" sense of honesty and morality is "ALL" tat they are bound by. And, IMO, there are many concientous and honest breeders out there, but unfortunately, I have to believe that a good number of 'not so concientous' ..seed makers have also ventured into the market from time to time. 
 Purchasing from "reputable" seed banks, and "repytable" breeders can give you some asurance, but there are no gaurantees.   Unlike going into the garden center and buying Zuchinni seeds, if you grow them and end up with pumpkins, there is a road of repercussion.

  On the othe hand, as mass suggested,.. there are a good percentage of informed and studious consumers out there, that DO know and understand the finer points and characteristics of MJ, and are probably our best means of regulation and control at this point. Keeping the "breeders" held to a 'standard' of stability and quality, through feedback and (again) "reputation". AND..IMO, we do have some of those honest and reputable 'breeders' in NA, they aren't restricted to the netherlands.. 
..just play nice guys , and don't allow method of communication here to bunch up yer panties..


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## Fadeux (Oct 2, 2008)

Hick said:
			
		

> Geeze guys.... this 'could' actually be an educational and informative discussion. Why must we aggrevate and berate?..
> I can see "both" points. IMO..Faudex is correct in the fact that there is no "regulatory commission", no control, noone overseeing either 'breeders' OR 'seed makers'. ONLY the consumer. And there are a good percentage of consumers out there, that quite frankly, wouldn't know white widow from bluberry, from cali ornge, from G13..... and probably don't even 'care'. As long as they are able to produce a good product themselves, and "say" "I'm smoking G13". Not all!.. but there is a good percentage.
> Their reputation and their "own" sense of honesty and morality is "ALL" tat they are bound by. And, IMO, there are many concientous and honest breeders out there, but unfortunately, I have to believe that a good number of 'not so concientous' ..seed makers have also ventured into the market from time to time.
> Purchasing from "reputable" seed banks, and "repytable" breeders can give you some asurance, but there are no gaurantees.   Unlike going into the garden center and buying Zuchinni seeds, if you grow them and end up with pumpkins, there is a road of repercussion.
> ...



Thanks Hick, I do really see his point, I just can't stand this juvenile "lmao" and name calling stuff. So I called it a night and went to bed.


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## Hick (Oct 2, 2008)

...anyone ever heard of "Paonia Paralyzer"???.. t'was a skunky hybrid, acclimated to the western slope of CO back in the 80's. As legendary 'locally' as was the Matanuska thunderfuck of AK was in those times. Was pretty stable and would produce in excess of a lb. p/plant in proper conditions. 
  It's gone, just as the 'true' MTF.. _"IMHO"[./i]. Due at least partially to the wide spread influx of the dutch genetics. One of the victims of our ever smaller world..._


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## massproducer (Oct 2, 2008)

I totally agree Hick, the point though still seems to be getting lost in the shuffle, I never said that all breeders in NA were reputable, but saying that buying from Amsterdam is better because it is regulated??? Regulated by who???

Once again I never said anything was regulated, I know that I have the same chance at getting what I ordered from NA breeders that I do from Dutch breeders.

While I agree that the market is controlled by the consumer, I think the consumer has a lot more power then you are giving them credit for there Hick... Like any industry, as soon as a company starts to put out a subpar product compaired to the other giants within the industry, the consumers and the competitors will expose the product and eliminate it from the market place based on shear demand.  This doesn't just hurt the companies projected revenues, it really hurts their credibility within this market regarding future ventures... Most, once again "reputable", and that is the key word here "reputable" breeders do not want to tarnish their names that they have worked so hard to earn, over something as trivial as the strains name.

Their are definiately fly by nite seedbanks and fly by night breeders located in NA, that are not worried about you and are only worried about their profits, but if you do some research on that company I bet that you would find that that wasn't a "reputable" company, they were actually a fly by night.  But they exist everywhere, from NA, to holland.


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## Fadeux (Oct 2, 2008)

Let me just try to clarify my point, and then I have to go to work.

How many people in the USA grow marijuana? 

Whatever your guess is, what percentage of those purchase their specific genetics. 

Of those, what percentage of them purchase their genetics from a reputable dealer. 

Of the non-reputable dealers out that, what percentage of them purchase their genetics from a reputable dealer.

As you can see, the equation can break down very rapidily, and I am guessing there are a lot of people out their today growing bullshoy. Not to say their aren't some reputable seed banks in NA, I just wouldn't know how to find one personally, other then people like you telling me what they are. 

I don't know **** about west coast strains/breeders/banks. But I frequent Amsterdam quite a bit and am greatly familiar with their products. Thats why I trust their breeders. I dont know trainwreck from og kush, so if i bought that, I wouldn't even know if I had the right stuff.


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## Fadeux (Oct 2, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> I totally agree Hick, the point though still seems to be getting lost in the shuffle, I never said that all breeders in NA were reputable, but saying that buying from Amsterdam is better because it is regulated??? Regulated by who???
> 
> Once again I never said anything was regulated, I know that I have the same chance at getting what I ordered from NA breeders that I do from Dutch breeders.



I would argue its better regulated because of the coffee shops, and the cannabis cup. Its a lot easier to sell a bag under a fake name in the US, cause no one knows the difference. It's easy to sell a bag under a fake name in Holland, but I imagine you'll get called out a lot quicker on it if you make a habit of it...


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## Hick (Oct 2, 2008)

Fadeux said:
			
		

> I would argue its better regulated because of the coffee shops, and the cannabis cup. Its a lot easier to sell a bag under a fake name in the US, cause no one knows the difference. It's easy to sell a bag under a fake name in Holland, but I imagine you'll get called out a lot quicker on it if you make a habit of it...


....and I could agree.."IF" it weren't for the fact that we (NA) are becoming "better regulated", due to the legal dispensaries and medical vendors, especially on the west coast and canada.
  In "THAT" sense, we are quickly becoming just as regulated as the 'dam.."if" you can call that regulation.. ..IMO..


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## massproducer (Oct 2, 2008)

Basically all I am saying is that if you mislead your customers they will find out and it will be the end of your business, wheater you are in NA or Estonia,  people do not like to be ripped off, i see what you are saying, and totally see your logic, I guess I just don't agree, no hard feelings, have a nice day

By the way, in NA, just like the dutch, the good seedbanks usually buy in bulk directly from the breeders, so there isn't like 5 middle men, buying from a good seed bank or breeder that is the key


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## Wiseguy_Chef (Oct 2, 2008)

has eveyone for got about the bigest myth of them all? G-13??


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## Wiseguy_Chef (Oct 2, 2008)

well an to clear a few things up, the grower that grew the myth strain was, a college prof. at the college here in town.


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## mistisrising (Oct 2, 2008)

I think most of the stuff we got as kids was myth strains. We had a strain around here called lucky sevens. Come to find out that it had that name because it took seven years to get a crop in without the cops or someone else taking it. It was really a mexican mix. I remember getting "humboldt", and then learning later that it was an area, not a strain.


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Oct 2, 2008)

Dr. chronic .com is the best place to order seeds. Always as advertised. And if he don't have it and u don't want substitutes he will refund your $$. 

However there are other great reputable sites that final product turns out as advertised. Gypsy Nirvana's Seedboutique.com or you can order straight from the breeders in most cases. Like Mandala seeds . com or most any other breeder/ seed maker. Most ship worldwide. And payable in US dollars. 

Second point here.... so stay tuned...... .............. ahhhhh.........okay.

Weed is illegal and it's black market, no matter who you are dealing with.. breeders or friends on a forum or buddies that grow or whatever. When u are given some pot and ur buddie says it's bubba kush and u see it's got seeds in it, but u don't really know cause you never saw it and u don't know u take him at his words.( REAL bubba is clone only hence it's always seedless unless accidentally pollinated.)

What i am getting at is that you must take people at face value unless ur final result doesn't turn out as advertised. My suggestion to you is to ask some experienced growers about their favored strains and who is the breeder and where is the best place to get em which will 9out of 10 will be the doc. 

After you do some more reading into the history of some of these strains u will see that big seed hacks like greenhouse who claim they have the REAL DEAL TRAINWRECK which they don't.... and u will laugh at em.Or Blueberry which is actually DJ SHORTS work... and has been ripped off by almost every hack out there. 

Point is.. the more you read and study the in 's and out's of cannabis and the diff strains  and  where they come from and who has the better strains u won't know what's best for u and if u don't start trusting the people that actually breed them or keep strains in clone form you won't ever know. 

Don't just stop reading after you learn to grow.......... average seeds grown by an average grower will turn out much better than the weed it came from. Point is.. there are great genetics out there....and some strains or clones come from unknown seed... prob given to them by some friend from a KILLER bag of whatever. 

Yes it takes time to be a true breeder. Thats why we give people like DJ SHORT real respect... or shantibaba or Breeder steve or Mike at Mandala seeds and others. But u have to do your research  and find out who's legit and who's not. That's what these forums are for. U can either take us at our word or keep growing bagseed..... 

I would take our word for it.


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## Fadeux (Oct 3, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Up here in Canada we have a Federal medical marijuana program administered by health Canada, so that means that the provinces have no say in what we do, I can possess certain amounts on my person anywhere in canada, I can legally grow up to 25 plants right now based on my gram per day ratio, and can store almost 2 pounds in reserve.
> 
> Just google "medical marijuana Access Division Health Canada"



I missed this post earlier, and I don't want to continue the argument, but I think I figured out where the misunderstanding comes from.

You do this legally. You grow openly, and probably have friends who grow. You probably breed, grow different genetics, smoke together and compare. I know I am making a lot of assumptions here, but please correct me if I am wrong.

I do not grow openly. If Leo finds my operation, I get put in a can for at least a decade. (damn mandatory minimum sentences) I don't have any growing buddies, and only my closest friends know I smoke. Since I can't share a joint with any of you fine folks on here, I lead a very lonely pot life. When I order seeds, I have no idea what I am actually getting. When I buy pot in the US, I have no idea what I am actually getting. Very rarely does my dealer even know the difference between indica, and sativa. 

I am not an experienced enough grower to be able to distinguish any NA strain yet. I assume most people on here live very "in-fear" of leo, or the consequences of what they are doing.  I would trust a NA seed bank, as long as it came on the recommendation of someone from here. Even then, I still would not be able to be sure the product was what I ordered, until several grows, and talking to more experienced people. The rule I have when I order seeds is, 1. They have to be in the original breeders package. 2. They have to be from Holland. 

Now, this is not to say the dutch have the best weed. I've been to Hawaii several times, and the weed down there is HANDS DOWN better... But I never met anyone who could honestly tell me what strain I am smoking, or a reputable seed bank to get them from. The dutch have GREAT weed, there is no denying that. Is it the best in the world? Probably not, but since I frequent Amsterdam, I am free to pick and choose different strains to sample. 

The simple breakdown of the argument is that I believe because it is so open in Holland, the market would regulate itself, just like you said. And that is a market I am familiar with. So that is the market I trust. Were I to order from a NA seedbank, I would have zero idea about the product I am getting. 

You may very easily know exactly what you are getting, but our circumstances are very different. You can grow these plants freely, I would get >10 years in a jail cell. I have to be skeptical of EVERYTHING.

That said, I apoligize for any sharp comments I may have made last night. Its easy to forget you're talking to a person of "at the least" a minimully similar mindset whenyou are on the internet. I am sure there is much I can learn from you, and if you take the time to think about what I have to say, you may even find yourself learning a thing or two. I am no expert, by any means, but I am usually pretty good at "questioning the experts..."

Sorry for the bad vibes all! Im cool with Mass if he's cool with me.


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## Fadeux (Oct 3, 2008)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Yes, we did have to pick tons of seeds out before we could roll a joint.  Pot has gotten continually better as the years pass.  In the sixties you bought 4 finger baggies for $8-10--it had seeds, stems, leaves--we didn't know any better.  In the seventies I bought Mexican compressed into a block--mediocre, but the price was right, $100 for a half kilo.  I had some thai-stick in the 80s that I thought was the ultimate...until i got some stuff from Panama.  Around this time we started to see sensimillia, but we didn't call it that then.  It was just pot without seeds--we were ecstatic.  This is about the time I got interested in growing.  We did it outside--none of this fancy-*** HID lighting.  We grew monsters outside wherever we could.  I had a greenhouse and grew 4-6 plants.  Citrcumstances dictated a hiatus from growing for many years.  When I took it up again, it was a whole different story.
> 
> Pot has evolved.  It has gotten substantially better.  This is one of those things that there is really no debate about.  Anyone who has smoked pot for decades will tell you that this is true.



An old hippy friend of mine made this exact point. He doesn't like getting high with me because the weed Eff's him up WAY too much. And he went to woodstock for chrissake.  Interesting. Who knows how it will be in 15 years?


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## Fadeux (Oct 3, 2008)

Hick said:
			
		

> ....and I could agree.."IF" it weren't for the fact that we (NA) are becoming "better regulated", due to the legal dispensaries and medical vendors, especially on the west coast and canada.
> In "THAT" sense, we are quickly becoming just as regulated as the 'dam.."if" you can call that regulation.. ..IMO..



100% true, but where I live, I cannot trust any info about NA weed. That's all I am trying to say.


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## Wiseguy_Chef (Oct 3, 2008)

greenhouse seeds.com thats where i whent. i will tell u around jan if they turn out to be what they say.


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## HydroManiac (Oct 3, 2008)

this is quite funny...


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## Wiseguy_Chef (Oct 3, 2008)

Mr.Wakenbake  don't sell greenhouse short they do have 3 cups under there belt.


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## NorCalHal (Oct 3, 2008)

Hick said:
			
		

> ....and I could agree.."IF" it weren't for the fact that we (NA) are becoming "better regulated", due to the legal dispensaries and medical vendors, especially on the west coast and canada.
> In "THAT" sense, we are quickly becoming just as regulated as the 'dam.."if" you can call that regulation.. ..IMO..


 
Great thread, almost went haywire, but back on track.

Both Mass and Fad make great points. Great points. And of course Hick comes in with his Great points also.

IF, I had to choose, I would HAVE to say that Fad is correct on buying seeds from the 'Dam being more accurate. Just for the simple fact that most of the shady breeders have already been "weeded" out, and we in NA are just strting to "weed" out poor genetics and thier breeders.
Now, along the lines of Mass, he is absolutly correct in the names he dropped for NA breeders being reputable. All of those folks are the real deal. Though , I do disagree with some of thier marleting tactics.


Fad, check out Elite genetics., there are the real deal. They also have a forum for questions about thire beans, along with current stock reports of what they have.
http://www.cannaworld.com/center/index.php?name=ForumsPro&file=viewtopic&t=1196


OK.

So, what I see going on, and how things are developing here at least on the West Coast is, folks who start from seed are the minority. Most development has come from breeders crossing and then picking the best pheno of the bunch, and the cloning begins. 
The clones are all let out thru dispensaries.
When the dispensaries first started, it was WORSE then a crap shoot when you bought clones. You could almost quarentee that it was not what was said to be. But that was over 10 years ago. Now, those folks/Clubs are out of business.
As Hick stated, we are "policing" our own now and folks are generally more educatd about strain. Now, certain clubs are known to have the real deal, and ther is WAY more money to be made on clones then finished, for sure. BUT, you have to know your stuff and be consistant.
Reputation is now at stake and competition. So noone wants to sell crap clones, because they will be out of business.


I am SUPER happy how the Bay Area has progressed. It has really been taking charge of breeding and attracting some big names. DJ Short has been around and working with some KEY folks in the scene here. I expect some new beans to be coming from him with some West Coast genetics.
Just his presence shows that we are progressing in the World scene.


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## Fadeux (Oct 4, 2008)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> Great thread, almost went haywire, but back on track.
> 
> Both Mass and Fad make great points. Great points. And of course Hick comes in with his Great points also.
> 
> ...



Yes, Cali and BC are currently doing wonders for the industry. Like I said, the weed in Hawaii was HANDS DOWN better than any Dutch stuff I have had. That said, you need to understand I currently live in a place where weed is equated with heroin. You don't talk about it openly, and you sure as hell dont tell anyone you grow. 

I would advise everyone in my situation to order dutch seeds from verified breeders. How do I verify a seedbank? I can't. I can only go on internet knowledge. I am sure the west coast has some amazing ones. I will absolutely check them out. But like you said, its a crap shoot to me. I don't have anyone (other than on here) I can discuss this stuff with. The people I smoke with here, dont know the difference between indica and sativa. 

Now, would someone argue with me that NA is better, and I should order NA strains, they already know more than I do, and don't need my advice. 

I think I just totally repeated myself, but ah well, I am bored and you aren't obligated to read this


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

see to me it still seems like what you are saying is that the dutch are more trust worthy then NA's???  Other then this I can't understand exactly what you think will be different.

Norcal I think was referring to Clubs and dispensories, that is not really what I am talking about.  I am saying there is no difference getting seeds from a North american Breeder as opposed to a dutch Breeder, if you are saying that buying from a NA, you wouldn't know what you got based on growing it, how is that going to change in regards to getting something from the dutch?  Either way you are dependant on getting what you buy and pay for, which makes things a moral question, which is why I took offence to your original post.  Wheather you get your seeds from a dependable seedbank in Amsterdam or North America/England, you have the same probabilities of getting what you pay for.  All of the breeders, regardless of their geograph locations eventually end up competing for the same clientelle, within the same general pool, globally... You have to understand what era this is, transportation, communication and shipping is very easy to accomplish on a global scale, which opens basically all potential clients to the global market place.

You surely can not think that just because you order or buy seeds from the dam, that that seals the fate of you getting what you paid for...  Wheater you go to the Dam or NA you still must buy seeds from reputable sources in as you said original breeder packs.  Just because our breeders are located in NA doesn't mean that they do not come in original breeders packs.


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## Fadeux (Oct 4, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> see to me it still seems like what you are saying is that the dutch are more trust worthy then NA's???  Other then this I can't understand exactly what you think will be different.
> 
> Norcal I think was referring to Clubs and dispensories, that is not really what I am talking about.  I am saying there is no difference getting seeds from a North american Breeder as opposed to a dutch Breeder, if you are saying that buying from a NA, you wouldn't know what you got based on growing it, how is that going to change in regards to getting something from the dutch?  Either way you are dependant on getting what you buy and pay for, which makes things a moral question, which is why I took offence to your original post.  Wheather you get your seeds from a dependable seedbank in Amsterdam or North America/England, you have the same probabilities of getting what you pay for.  All of the breeders, regardless of their geograph locations eventually end up competing for the same clientelle, within the same general pool, globally... You have to understand what era this is, transportation, communication and shipping is very easy to accomplish on a global scale, which opens basically all potential clients to the global market place.
> 
> You surely can not think that just because you order or buy seeds from the dam, that that seals the fate of you getting what you paid for...  Wheater you go to the Dam or NA you still must buy seeds from reputable sources in as you said original breeder packs.  Just because our breeders are located in NA doesn't mean that they do not come in original breeders packs.



I am, at heart, a skeptic of pretty much everything. I have ZERO knowledge of the west coast scene. I don't live near the west coast. I have been there many times, and have smoked some PHENOMENAL WEED. 90% of the time, the guy can't tell me what strain it is. I have no personal experience or knowledge of west coast pot. Now, if you said "Get this strain from this breeder!" I would trust you, I would try it. It would most likely be incredible, provided you know what weed I like. I have never sat down and tested west coast strains. Its always been "What can you get?" "Oh, I can get you a quarter!" No talk about strain, or breeders or anything.

When I go to the dam, I can sit down, test several different kinds, and enjoy them openly. I can talk about them with people. The luxury that you have I certainly do not. 

Now, when you advise me what to order, and who to order it from, I am only basing my choice on one person. Not to discredit you, but you are only a few posts on the internet to me. You may be 100% trustworthy in your advice, but I have been to the dam, I have smoked these strains, and this is what I look for. I am near certain your advice could turn me 100%, so I will give it a try, but a decent grow takes 4 months, and I don't have the time/resources to risk that on one guy on the internet. 

Also, remember, you don't know what strains/genetics I favor. Hell, I don't even know. My dutch weed obsession is "Great White Shark." Or "Peacemaker" or any of the other names its known by. That is the best weed I have ever smoked. But, in Honolulu, I bought a gram off of a bartender, and THAT was HANDS DOWN the best weed I ever had. He couldn't tell me the strain, the breeder, or anything. That gram lasted me 3 days, I can smoke 3 grams of GWS in a single day. 

Now, I wish I could sit down with you and smoke this hawaii stuff with you, and I am 100% certain you could tell me what it is, and where to get the good beans from, but I cant. 

What I figured out, is I am NOT arguing with your knowledge, I am aruguing with the difference in situations we are both in. 

I agree with NorCal that the market corrects itself, and the shams are left out of business, but with my current lack of knowledge, or any sort of validatable resources, I have to trust what I know. The dutch market is the most open market in the world, and I believe the most self-correcting, so that is what I trust. But PM me. Lets talk some stellar genetics. I'll tell you what I like, and you give me advice. I can't get that from anyone I know personally, and I would actually risk a 4 month grow on your advice.


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## Dexter (Oct 4, 2008)

ABC
http://www.cannabisculture.com/articles/4292.html


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

See we keep intertwining commerical BUDS you bought with original breeders genetics.  These are two totally different markets, and as such can not be really compared.  I am not saying that you can not go to the dam and sit down and puff something that you like with a few people that can give you info, but the point that you are missing is that you would never know if what they are telling you in the coffee shop is correct or true either.  There is no justification or fact in the premise that all dutch or more trustworthy.

You keep talking about west cost weed, but I am not saying anything at all about west coast weed, or buying buds...I do not buy buds, i buy seeds and grow my own buds.

As for just talking my advise, you shouldn't be taking anyones advise except your own on what you are trying to grow, you should be reviewing the strain descriptions until you find something that you like.

I would be even inclined to agree with you that going to a coffee shop in Amsterdam to buy BUDS you have a better chance at getting that strain then going to a dispensory in Cali and getting BUDS.  But this has nothing to do with the breeders, it has to do with the way that the dispensory and coffee shops are ran, this is not what we are talking about, we are talking about getting the seeds from the same place as the coffee shop did, because 9 times out of 10, the coffee shop is not the breeder.


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

What is the Dutch seedbank that you get your seeds from?


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## Fadeux (Oct 4, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> See we keep intertwining commerical BUDS you bought with original breeders genetics.  These are two totally different markets, and as such can not be really compared.  I am not saying that you can not go to the dam and sit down and puff something that you like with a few people that can give you info, but the point that you are missing is that you would never know if what they are telling you in the coffee shop is correct or true either.  There is no justification or fact in the premise that all dutch or more trustworthy.
> 
> You keep talking about west cost weed, but I am not saying anything at all about west coast weed, or buying buds...I do not buy buds, i buy seeds and grow my own buds.
> 
> ...



Of course not. The coffee shop is not the breeder, they are not the seed bank. There are MANY different links in the chain, but if you like a strain in Amsterdam, you can find it many other places, and if you know you like it, you know it. Its the same thing with wine, but I'll leave that analogy alone. There are many links in the chain, but if you smoke a strain at 4 coffee shops in Holland, and know that its the same stuff, you know you can trust it. So, that validates the breeder/grower/vendor. That is why I am a stickler for "Original Breeder Packaging" 

You are now arguing my point. There is NO centralized body regulating this. All we have is speculation, information, and free-market governing this. No centralized body in Holland regulates strain info. I've smoked enough there to know what I like, and know where to get it. 

Is it the best? Of course not, but I have quite a bit more personal knowledge in that region. I know enough about a strain because I have smoked it at several coffee shops, and yes, there are some dodgy ones out there. The knowledge I have is NOT concrete, but still verified in my mind. 

Im sorry, I have to go back to wine with this one. If wine were illegal all over the world, were it illegal to grow grapes in this world, very few people would know the difference between cabranet and merlot. Underground wine bars would sell both, but how would you really know? Breeders would sell seeds, but how would you really know? How many underground wine dealers would actually make the distinction, or care to? Say you make wine legal in one country, how quick would the market ween out the decieptive ones? 

We agree, 100% believe it or not, we are just not on the same page. Its going to take quite a few long winded posts from both of us to finally reach a common ground. 

Dutch genetics are not more trustworthy in my opinion, but I have experience in sampling them. I grow them, and I know if I am growing what I had there. I trust that a lot more than someone telling me "grow this from that place and it'll be better." Its not to say that you are wrong, but I have experience there. 

It's not the knowledge we are arguing at this point, its the situations...


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

The fact is that if you are saying that you judge the strains you are going to grow by smoking buds of the same strain, and get consistant results from this, i really do not know how to respond to that.

Lets look at genetic expression, the fact is that the chances of you getting the same pheno as the one you smoked is so slight, that it is almost non-existant.  Unless you are going to amsterdam and buying clones then you are going to have a bunch of different phenos of which none will display the exact same traits.  This is why taking a bagseed and growing it perfectly will more then likely never give you the same smoke as the bag it came from.

This is why seedbanks have descriptions, that is how people judge what they are going to grow, not by smoking all of the strains they wish to grow, and asking others opinions.

"but if you smoke a strain at 4 coffee shops in Holland, and know that its the same stuff, you know you can trust it. So, that validates the breeder/grower/vendor." fadeux

You said that if you go to the Dam and smoke something that you know it is that, then you can trust them, but think about that for a second.  How exactly did you know that it was what they said it was in the first place, how can you know in amsterdam and not know somewhere else?

Trust me we are not saying anything close to the same thing, i am saying that as far as breeders go, both locations are just as regulated as they are regulated by the same clients.


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## Fadeux (Oct 4, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> What is the Dutch seedbank that you get your seeds from?



I don't. I get them from a british seedbank and I am a stickler on original breeder packaging. 

Just be honest with me friend. What is the point you are trying to make, and we can continue this debate as long as you want. Debates aren't evil, they aren't drama. It's you and me trying to learn something from each other.

 The question is "How do you know your genetics are authentic, and where do you get them from, and why?" 

The distinguished gentleman named MASS has the floor. 

Thats the fundamental question of this debate. I can't answer that question 100%, and I am guessing you can't either. If you can, that opens up a great window for people on here.  That's all we are really discussing. We've gotten way to generalized and that is why this thread is going downhill. I respect you, and your knowledge, but we are getting down to fundamentals here, and thats what I love. Are you pissed at me? Im not angry at you? Its not about being right or wrong, its about "having the conversations."


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

Fadeux said:
			
		

> You are now arguing my point. There is NO centralized body regulating this. All we have is speculation, information, and free-market governing this. No centralized body in Holland regulates strain info. I've smoked enough there to know what I like, and know where to get it.


 
Now before you aqused me of having expressed knowledge of strain or that I have information that the average person doesn't have, but i stated that I rely on reliable breeders strain descriptions and the descriptions of others that have grown that perticular breeders version of a perticular strain, via online forums and whatnot.

But you are saying that you just know where to go and where to get it.  If you are promoting the Dam, then who are you promoting in the dam, because I am not trying to flame ya, but you have to this point provided no information at all, you just keep referring to wine, which I am not sure what wine has to do with anything.


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## Fadeux (Oct 4, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> The fact is that if you are saying that you judge the strains you are going to grow by smoking buds of the same strain, and get consistant results from this, i really do not know how to respond to that.
> 
> Lets look at genetic expression, the fact is that the chances of you getting the same pheno as the one you smoked is so slight, that it is almost non-existant.  Unless you are going to amsterdam and buying clones then you are going to have a bunch of different phenos of which none will display the exact same traits.  This is why taking a bagseed and growing it perfectly will more then likely never give you the same smoke as the bag it came from.
> 
> ...



Granted, but I live in a "redneck" state. There are ZERO regulations here. No market, no nothing. Weed is weed and no one cares about anything other than, "does it eff you up?" 

Seriously though, I like you, quite a bit, and you are obviously smart. I would like you to PM me a strain that I could import from canada, and grow here in the american midwest. I dont care about the strain, breeder, or any of that. Just tell me what to get and where to get it. You obviously have some good stuff under your belt. Also, I would love to grow that, and smoke it with you sometime.  Thatll never happen though, but really, I bet it would be interesting. It's easy to cut people down when it's just a string of letters and numbers to someone. Theres no respect on this internet thing. I say we just agree to disagree on that one. 

Mass, I get my seeds the only way I know how. Illegally, and when that is the case, you can flip a coin to figure out if you are getting in leglitimatlly, or just getting shammed... I have my methods, you have yours. Are you a better grower than me? I would bet so, every time, and most likley make money. You obviously can't understand my situation, so no worries. I don't need your approval. Take care, and have a great night. You apparently do quite a  bit for the realm of pot on this continent, so there is no reason to argue. Thank you for your knowledge, and your spreading of this knowledge. You are a great person, and I wish you the best of luck in all your future endevoures...


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

Ok bro, I think i am just going to leave this alone now, because this is starting to kind of go in circles.

I do not understand even what are the issues anymore being that you just stated that you get your seeds from a british seedbank.  This entire conversation just went all over the place.  You came into this forum saying that you should only buy seeds FROM the dutch, but you do not even buy seeds from the dutch, so what was all of this about going to amsterdam, frequently all about.  This last post is the VERY first time that you said anything about England or anything outside of amsterdam, if you would have said you got seeds from england but prefer dutch strains then I would have never said a word to you..  BUT you came in here recommending everyone to only buy dutch seeds.


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

Why not just check out seedboutique.com and find something you like and then PM me or post a question in the strains section, regarding the strain.

Check it out...

Like i said bro I have no problems with you personally at all, you seem very cool, i just think that we have to understand when an opinion came be precieved as a factual presentation... That means I have to remember that as well

But check out seedboutique.com, they have a nice amount of original brreder packs of seeds from a variety of dutch and NA breeders, and they are located in England, you may wanna check out doc chronic as well... http://www.drchronic.com/


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

sorry check out hemp depot as well, they are located in Canada
http://www.hempdepot.ca/seeds/canadian/index.html


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## Fadeux (Oct 4, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Why not just check out seedboutique.com and find something you like and then PM me or post a question in the strains section, regarding the strain.
> 
> Check it out...
> 
> ...



Fair enough. I've heard great things about the doc, I've also hear bad stories. 

What we are actually discussing, is where to buy your seeds, and how to know you are getting the "real deal" when you buy them. We obviously agree there are a lot of crap banks out there selling bunk seeds. What we dont agree on is where the seeds themselves come from. If I go to several coffee shops and smoke GWS, I should know what it really is. If I grow it, and smoke it, I should know if I got what I paid for.

If I order from a GB seedbank, and get shite, I will know on my first grow. But that is the trust I am willing to place into it. It comes from my own personal knowledge, and my internet reccomendations. I've come back from holland to the us many times, and they always had a dog to "smell us" at the terminal. before customs, before international security, before any of that. 

We really aren't talking about anything but "Seedbank Theory" and obviously, there is no answer to that one. You obviously have more knowledge than I do, but because of my situation, I cannot see past the true providers I respect. If you could provide me with one (which you probably have) I would actually listen to it, provided it were a strain I was actually interested in. 

We HONESTLY have no difference in our skeptism. But, we do still have a lot to learn from each other, I would argue I have more to learn than you do, but don't dismiss me because you don't understand my perspective. 

You can name a strain, a breeder, a dealer, to buy this stuff from. Congrats. I can't do that. I grow in an extremely private community. The only reason I have to pay 100 bucks for your 10 beans is your own personal validation. So do that, and in 6 months, I will be thanking you for that. Or not, and in 6 months I won't care. I don't care. Ill take a chance. 

You obviously know more about weed than I do. All I can do is learn from you. You can prove me wrong all you want, but what good does it do you? I just want GOOD WEED. Thats it. I don't care about a pissing match.

Much respect to you MASS. 

Like I have said before on this site, I am NO expert, but I am GREAT at questioning the experts... 

Its not about being right or wrong, its about achieving the common goal. If you can help me with that, you are fantastic, if you just want to prove yourself right against an "underling" you go right ahead.


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## massproducer (Oct 4, 2008)

You just said that you bought seeds in GB, i honestly do not understand what you are talking about anymore, like I said this is just going in circles, I really think that you should go back and read everything that you have wrote and how it keeps changing, with almost every post, just jumping all over the place.  And as I have said  if you think that smoking a strain and then trying to grow the same strain from seed are going to come out the same then honestly, once again I do not understand how how only you can defeat science and the laws or averages and genetics.

Man no disrespect at all but i am pretty sure that you have never grown any cannabis before based on your preceptions and information of the subject.

And if you have grown, then please for like the 7th time, where do you get your seeds from, i am not looking for a general answer, but a specific one.


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## Dexter (Oct 4, 2008)

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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## Puffin Afatty (Oct 4, 2008)

*What is supposed to be in a name oftentimes isnt :confused2: 

:watchplant: I know MY SnowWhite isnt, She is a HAZE and due not to the fault of the seed seller, but more likely due to my mixing up the seeds here at home or on the Houseboat in the Dam  Most of my seeds are in their breeder packs, but since I tend to play with em alot when I 1st get them, they do get mixed on occassion.  I often compare my seeds to breeders seeds too, soooo, I never can be 100 percent sure anything is anything

here's a pic of some of the breeder packs from Nirvana, and the freebies from Sam, unfortunately, I really cant be sure they are what they are supposed to be either, because I compared em to my skunk seeds too :rofl:*


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## NorCalHal (Oct 4, 2008)

Gentlemen.

If you want a West Coast Breeder, check out Elite.

Another West Coast Breeder, is DNA Genetics. BUT, I must say they moved to the 'Dam and opened up shop. But I still consider them West Coast because of the genetics they brought to the 'Dam is west coast.


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## Fadeux (Oct 5, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> You just said that you bought seeds in GB, i honestly do not understand what you are talking about anymore, like I said this is just going in circles, I really think that you should go back and read everything that you have wrote and how it keeps changing, with almost every post, just jumping all over the place.  And as I have said  if you think that smoking a strain and then trying to grow the same strain from seed are going to come out the same then honestly, once again I do not understand how how only you can defeat science and the laws or averages and genetics.
> 
> Man no disrespect at all but i am pretty sure that you have never grown any cannabis before based on your preceptions and information of the subject.
> 
> And if you have grown, then please for like the 7th time, where do you get your seeds from, i am not looking for a general answer, but a specific one.



I don't think the seedbank actually matters that much. The biggest factor I use is that the seeds come in the original breeder packaging. I use dope-seeds.com and they have always sent me the original breeders packaging. These seeds come from Greenhouse seeds, and I have actually been to their place in the dam, and have seen what the original packaging looks like. Thats the biggest factor to me, personal experience. I know its a GB seedbank, but to me, logically, it would be less scruitinized by customs, coming from GB and not Holland. Thats not a fact, its just my own thinking.

And yes, I assure you, I have grown before. I grow for personal use, my friends and myself. (always claim I bought it) My grows have always been small, but I am a nerd, and in my free time, I like to design "massive grows." I've read MJ botany (not fully) and actually have started a plan to create my own form of genetics. Not that its bulletproof, I still dont have near enough knowledge to actually move on anything yet, and no real desire. Its just a hobby of mine. I speak on here like I am a mass grower, but I am not, and I will tell you I am not, but I do think like one. If I had 10 grand lying around and a couple extra bedrooms, I am pretty sure I could set something big up. 

The reason I keep going back to wine is because I know it inside and out. I dont like it, but I've had to know it because of the business I am in. I treat MJ strains the same way as wine varietals (Chard, Pinot, Merlot, and Zin). It's a bad parellel for someone who doesn't drink much wine, so I apoligize for that. 

Regardless, you obviously know your stuff, I am not knocking any NA seedbanks, I am not saying the best pot comes from the dam. I just know what I like, I know how I have verified its authenticity, and attempt to share that with other people. You made a great point earlier that opinions are being argued as facts, and I understand that. You are correct, and that is something I need to be cautious of. 

Sincerely, much respect to you. Thank you for taking me down a peg. I have honestly learned quite a bit from this conversation, and I realize I need to "broaden my horizons," so to speak. If fate is kind we will randomly meet and share a joint together at some point, should that ever happen, itll take us about 5 minutes of conversation to realize we're actually pretty close to the same page. 

Basically, I think our discussion boils down to this. You are the Smart Grower. You do this, understand it, and understand how the systems work. I am the "underground grower" and do not have near the insight or information available to me that you do. I share my knowledge and opinions with people on here, and can back them up pretty well, but when I get into it with you, you will most likely school me every time. 
So, I am going to let this thread die too. I look forward to more interactions with you on here.


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