# bubble system vs. others



## sicnarf (Feb 26, 2006)

I was reading up on bubble systems. Are they as efficent as, let say, ebb and flow? Or are they not as good drip sytems. Any clarifications on this bubble sytem and how it matches up to other hyrdoponic sytems would be intense!


----------



## Eggman (Feb 26, 2006)

Is a bubble system like a Deep Water Culture? If that's the case, do it man, it rocks, or, it's a good way to grow.


----------



## sicnarf (Feb 26, 2006)

I have no idea. I asume it's the same :/


----------



## Stoney Bud (Feb 26, 2006)

sicnarf said:
			
		

> I was reading up on bubble systems. Are they as efficent as, let say, ebb and flow? Or are they not as good drip sytems. Any clarifications on this bubble sytem and how it matches up to other hyrdoponic sytems would be intense!


Easily compared.

Best: Aeroponics (Lot's of problems possible)

Second best: Ebb and Flow (A 10 year old could use one.)

Third best: Drip (Lots of problems possible)

Bubble systems apparently have evolved dramatically since I last used one. I'll have to check into that type of growing method again to update my own knowledge.

"Massproducer" is current on the setup and use of a DWC system and can fill you in on all of the most recent developments in this technique. I'll piggy-back your information gathering on DWC. I'm very curious myself.

Hey, IMHO, an Ebb and Flow is the best hydro system there is when all factors are considered. Others have their favorites as well. MassProducer swears by the DWC system and is of the opinion that it is a better system than Ebb and Flow.

I'm already set up for full Ebb and Flow grow rooms and without giving up my bedroom, I don't have any more room left for expermentation. I wish I did. I'd like to set up a DWC unit such as MassProducer uses and see what I've missed in my education.


----------



## Stoney Bud (Feb 26, 2006)

Eggman said:
			
		

> Is a bubble system like a Deep Water Culture? If that's the case, do it man, it rocks, or, it's a good way to grow.


What's "Deep Water Culture?


----------



## Weeddog (Feb 27, 2006)

DWC is a bubbling bucket...   I can harvest a pound off one plant in 8 weeks using a bubbler.   I think they rock.   But then its the only way I have tried in hydro...  Its far better than soil, and I think its the easiest.


----------



## sicnarf (Feb 27, 2006)

I would add so many air pumps in my system the water would look so fizzy form all the bubbles. Picking the hydro method to start with is tuff stuff..lol


----------



## Stoney Bud (Feb 27, 2006)

Weeddog said:
			
		

> DWC is a bubbling bucket... I can harvest a pound off one plant in 8 weeks using a bubbler. I think they rock. But then its the only way I have tried in hydro... Its far better than soil, and I think its the easiest.


Hey man, I'm a fast learner. I want to hear how you get a LB of weed off one plant from seedling to final flower in 8 weeks.

Dude, I'm serious. You tell me how to do that and I'll scream your fame from the roof of my house. WEEDDOG, WEEDDOG, WEEDDOG!!!!!!!

Dig this man; the Aztecs used a method of what you call Deep Water Culture. They would plant gardens on rafts of reeds and others would beat the water with fronds. It's believed that this is the very first form of Hydroponics. The surface of the pond would be an oxygen collector and the constant beating of fronds on the surface between the plants probably oxygenated the water a bit more. The rapid air movement was also good on several levels. It reduced the insect level and it's said that it might as well have limited the number of sicknesses from mosquito bites. A dude with a name about a yard long that started with a "Tahtz" or something like that, was the head cheese. He told everyone they had to do the air thing and the gardens of his kingdom were supposed to be known throughout the world at that time. Slaves were used on the rafts to move, raise and lower the plants, depending on the type of plant and it's needs. They would spend their entire life on the raft, working the plants. Then, the Spanish came and brought the pox. Wiped the Aztecs out. Totally.

A bubble pot method is good way to grow. It does reasonably well. An Ebb and Flow takes it several steps further by maximising the aeration of the water and taking it to the root system between periods of fully enveloping the roots in an oxygen atmosphere. This method of full delivery of both oxygen rich water and nutrients inter-spaced with a 100% humidity root area bathed in fresh oxygen is the 2nd best known, 2nd most widely used and the 2nd most productive form of Hydroponics ever used for a cost effective crop.

The first is what's known as NFT, or Nutrient Flow Technique. The US Army supported it's troops in the Aleutian Islands by using NFT in sand beds with waterproofed canvas tarps filled with wood chips and sand. The pits were sloped just a few degrees to create flow. An organic mixture was pumped to the top, 24 hours each day. If it rained, they would cover the growing areas to prevent damage to the crops.

That was the first time in history that hydroponics was used in that manner. By the Army yet.... Who'd figure.

There's a method used in Italy that's I've always wanted to try. They take canvas bags about 8 feet long and two feet wide and hang them filled with a peat, vermiculite, perlite mixture and regulate a fast drip through the bag from the top. The flow is adjusted so that only a tiny amount is collected and returned to the reservoir. Tomatoes mostly. Had some awesome pics in a book I read somewhere. Looked like giant tomato bushes. The plants were spaced about 6 inches apart through eyelets in the canvas. 360 degrees around the bag from top to bottom. Truly awesome looking. 

Edit: I think it was in a book that is considered by most professionals in Hydroponics to be the "Bible" of Hydroponics; Hydroponic Food Production: A Definitive Guidebook of Soilless Food-Growing Methods (Hardcover) by Howard M., Ph.D. Resh . It was about twenty years or more ago in it's first edition. Maybe it's still in it. It's on it's sixth edition. The books second edition was like 20 years after the first if I remember right. I think the photos of the Italian tomatoe process was in that book.

Please tell me how to do what you've described. A pound of weed on one plant in 8 weeks using ANY method would fascinate me. Holy Crap! This I want to learn.


----------



## Eggman (Feb 27, 2006)

Th eonly reason I know of Deep Water Culture is my friend just got 6 ounces from 1 or two plants with a HPS 400!!!!! Fucker!


----------



## Stoney Bud (Feb 27, 2006)

Eggman said:
			
		

> Th eonly reason I know of Deep Water Culture is my friend just got 6 ounces from 1 or two plants with a HPS 400!!!!! Fucker!


Heh, heh..That *******! Just kiddin.

6-8 oz's from two plants in a bubbler system w/a 400 HPS is about right IMHO. Of course, using current technology and nutrients, it may be able to produce even more than that. MassProducer is the person you'd have to ask about that. He's more up-to-date on DWC than I am.

You can double the 8 oz output of the system your buddy is using with an Ebb and Flow if you have the area for two plants that cover a 5 x 5 foot area. 

The nutrient delivery of an Ebb and Flow is truly awesome. It'll support as many plants as you can conceivably get the roots into it's chamber without pushing the rock out, (I've done that). 

I had 6 plants in a 12 x 12 room that filled it. I had to low crawl into the part of the plants I wanted to mess with and then stand up very carefully, work and then repeat the process. I got 5 pounds off that one six times before I got bored with the strain I kept cycling.


----------



## sicnarf (Feb 27, 2006)

I think I'm going with ebb and flow. 
I like the fact that you can grow more plants in a smaller area, hopefuly using less watts.


----------



## Weeddog (Feb 28, 2006)

Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> Hey man, I'm a fast learner. I want to hear how you get a LB of weed off one plant from seedling to final flower in 8 weeks.
> 
> Dude, I'm serious. You tell me how to do that and I'll scream your fame from the roof of my house. WEEDDOG, WEEDDOG, WEEDDOG!!!!!!!
> 
> Please tell me how to do what you've described. A pound of weed on one plant in 8 weeks using ANY method would fascinate me. Holy Crap! This I want to learn.



I have a plant ready to go into flower every 8wks from the mother plant.  This plant, being bushy, can fill my cabinet and will be finished in 8wks or there abouts.  I didnt mean from sprout to finish.  By the time one crop comes out, another one is ready to go in.  I have been consistantly getting just over 16 oz each grow,  if its one plant or two.  I didnt mean to mislead you Stoney....


----------



## Mutt (Feb 28, 2006)

Weeddog: 

What nUts are you using and what kind of air pump? just curious. Thanks.


----------



## Weeddog (Feb 28, 2006)

Hey Mutt,  I use General Hydroponic nuts and those cheap $10 dual aquarium pumps from walmart.  A pump on each bucket and one on the reservoir.  I also use a small water pump to flow water from the res to the buckets which keeps everything mixed well.   I guess one would call my system a recirculating dwc.


----------



## Mutt (Feb 28, 2006)

Really, I made a small one, but those little pumps didn't seem to bubble enough I was using a long foam bubbler. Air you using those long bubblers or the small air stones?Sorry for the million questions. I just have all the materials for a bubbler. If that will work for me then I won't go to Ebb-n-flo for my clones.

and how big is you bucket that holds the medium. will a 3 gallon work for two plants? (I have a few rubbermaids @ three gallon that would work perfect.)


----------



## Weeddog (Feb 28, 2006)

I use the small blue air stones while in vegg.  Remember, these are dual air pumps so i run 2 hoses into the bucket and put a stone on each one.   While in flowering,  I dont use any stones, except in the reservoir.   I use a simple T in the buckets instead of the stones.  I find that a stone tends to stop up before the grow is done where the T will not.   So there is 2 lines going into the bucket with a T on each one and they are tied to the drain on the bottom.

I use 5 gallon buckets to flower with but 3 gallon would problbly work fine also if you recirculate.  I use 3 gallon buckets to vegg with.  I use a black lid with a 6" hole cut in it and a 6" net pot with hydroton.

My buckets in the flower room drain back to the res outside the closet via a 1" pvc pipe.  Its very easy to check nut strength and ph in the reservoir at any time during the light cycle.


----------



## Mutt (Feb 28, 2006)

I am growing NL true indo. which only gets to three feet tops. So two hoses. Does the DWC have to recircualting? or can I just replenish the nut solution once a week and replace every two weeks? Or is it better to just recirculate and just monitor the PH closer?


I'll try it with the three gallon. not hard to upsize.
So a simple T-connector on each side should work fine. two pumps. 
thanks for the help dude. I figured Hydroton would be the way to go with it just use the lid as the pot holder. I seen lots of variations with this system. (I like this too as it can be my cloner and flower system all at once)

edit: last question I swear. can you reuse the hydroton after a grow or is it better to just replace the works?


----------



## Weeddog (Feb 28, 2006)

You should do just fine without recirculation.  It just makes it easier to check things out.  I use single buckets during vegg and do as you say and change water out every two weeks.   I do reuse my hydroton.  Just wash with bleach water then rinse really well.  The way I see it, one bag of that stuff could last several years.

One advantage with a recirculating system is ease of adding water and nuts.  A full blown plant will make it hard to lift the lid and check things.  All I have to do is lift the lid on my reservoir and take all the time I need.

Just a little side note:  during flowering, my plants usually drink 2 gallons of water a day.  So you may want a reservoir to make it easier to add water.  If you were to let it run a full week before adding water,  you may run dry....  Even a 5 gallon bucket will run dry in 3 days at that rate.   May want to think about that before you flower.


----------



## Mutt (Feb 28, 2006)

Thanks man. helped me out a ton. won't let me give you anymore rep.


----------



## Stoney Bud (Feb 28, 2006)

Weeddog said:
			
		

> I have a plant ready to go into flower every 8wks from the mother plant. This plant, being bushy, can fill my cabinet and will be finished in 8wks or there abouts. I didnt mean from sprout to finish. By the time one crop comes out, another one is ready to go in. I have been consistantly getting just over 16 oz each grow, if its one plant or two. I didnt mean to mislead you Stoney....


It sounds like you've been watching Mr. Green!

Good luck to you.


----------



## massproducer (Feb 28, 2006)

Exactly Stoney,  i think that it all comes down to growing styles.  DWC is just my personal choice, I really like aero but as you stated, it can and will be problematic, especially on your first few tries.  I like DWC because as the water receeds it create a very aeroponic enviroment that cannabis plant's roots thrive in.  It is like the aeroponic cloners, that are really just variations of DWC, as they use bubble stones to to create air bubbles that come to the top and burst misting the air.

With my DWC set up, I have never seen root masses like the ones I can create except for in aero.

but this is just my opinion, Happy growing

Massproducer


----------



## Opy Yutts (Feb 28, 2006)

I am building my second real set-up which consists of about 18 sq. ft.  I have been reading a lot about how to grow well, and the key is oxygen to the roots (assuming you have all the basics correct).  It doesn't matter what method you use.  Many methods produce similar results if you do things properly.  Make sure your nutes, temps, ventalation, and CO2 (if you're wealthy) are correct.  If you are a begginer this will be a big enough task for you.

If you want to increase your yeild and move to a more advanced level, start thinking about what ways would be best for you and your situation, in order to deliver as much oxygen as possible to your root mass.  For me, I have to consider that I live at the "end of the line", according to my electric company, and have a lot of power outages.  I want to have my roots in plain old circulating air as much as possible without the plants getting stressed.  But if the power is out for 12 hours, my plants may die with no liquid flowing over the roots.  Therefore my new set-up has adjustable nute levels under individual containers, to allow air to be pumped over the roots continuously, with just maybe an inch or so of roots in the nutes in case the power does go out.  I also have a sort of drip/ebb&flow system on a timer.  I guess I am building a hybrid system. I have not seen or read about anything exactly like it.

Other than the fun of building the project, it doesn't really matter how you supply the proper chemicals to plants. You will thank yourself later if you keep it simple.  My first real grow was an "Emily's Garden" (sp.?). It is a sort of DWC system and it was very simple and produced fantastic results. I altered it slightly to deliver bubbles under each root mass, but other than that it was plug and play. I don't remember what I was growing, but the leaves were bigger than my head, and I'm not small.

The best thing I can tell you is read up. What the hell happened to Overgrow. com? This was my favorite place in the world for info. Find another place to exchange information, find out what other people have done and pick and choose from their experiences to do what you think will work best for you. No wait, the best thing I can tell you is do not, under any circumstance, scrimp on the lighting or and the ventalation. Trust me you will be sorry. If you don't have much money, make a home-made Emily's Garden and spend your money on fans, ducts, and lights. No wait, the best thing that I can tell you, and this really is the best advice you will ever recieve, NEVER, ever, ever bring home a plant that has spider mites on it. (Look for groups of little white spots on the leaves). Read up on this if you don't know about it.

Hope this helps a little.

PS. I would be interested in input on my hybrid set-up.


----------



## gqone333 (Mar 1, 2006)

im using a bubble system not to many problems


----------



## sicnarf (Mar 1, 2006)

Wher can you find true areoponic mysters?


----------



## Stoney Bud (Mar 1, 2006)

sicnarf said:
			
		

> Wher can you find true areoponic mysters?


Hey sicnarf, you can find some good stuff here: Aero-supplies

Good luck to you man. Aero is fun as hell. Lot's of attention, but lot's of fun. Don't use it for a serious grow until you do a few practice runs first. You'll find that you'll learn it's potential very fast.

Max out your lights and use an alternating pumping system and heads and you'll radically increase your chance of success. Failures won't be catastrophic, just a nuisance.


----------



## Opy Yutts (Mar 1, 2006)

Can't we all just get along? (sniff)


----------



## Eggman (Mar 2, 2006)

Why **** with Stoney? DWC and Aero and most any other type of non-soil growing is a subset of hydro. Aero is a veriation of hydro, as is DWC. Mass. it doesn't mater if you have a sweatshop full of harvesters and joint rollers, you can still learn something new. It's sad that you get so, in-your-face about shit. All we ask is that you compare notes and chill out. When you say things such as, "disinformation" it really puts a bad taste in my mouth. Do you know what disinformation means? If so, why would you even suggest that word? Stoney is a good guy with some great tips and a lot of years experiance. Learn from him. Again, compare notes, he's a reasonable guy. When you write a word and don't know what it means, that's true disinformation.


----------



## sicnarf (Mar 2, 2006)

I want to move in with stoney so he can share all his knowledge with me. Stoney what do you say? I'm a mean cook. LOLz


----------



## Stoney Bud (Mar 2, 2006)

sicnarf said:
			
		

> I want to move in with stoney so he can share all his knowledge with me. Stoney what do you say? I'm a mean cook. LOLz


Hey, I've got the guest room made up for you.

You like Gator Tail?


----------



## sicnarf (Mar 2, 2006)

Hahaha, Gator tail? As long as you like armadillo pie


----------



## Stoney Bud (Mar 2, 2006)

sicnarf said:
			
		

> Hahaha, Gator tail? As long as you like armadillo pie


I don't have the recipe for that one. How about these?

*ARMADILLO RECIPES*


----------



## Hick (Mar 2, 2006)

hey mass' and stoney, ... you both seemed pretty knowledgeable of what you are talkin'. Why get hung out on logistics. 
 Stoney's kinda' old 'n grouchy,  don't take it personal. He's a pretty wise o bird. A good one to pay attention to. 
  I'm not saying you don't know your shit, cause I think you do. Deleting the argumentative content, I can understand. But there was some pertinant info in there that could help someone.  
  Whatta' ya say?..


----------



## massproducer (Mar 2, 2006)

Yes, I argee Hick, Stoney does know his shit, and being a newbie to this forum I just do not want to make any more enemies, i have sent stoney a pm to try and clear things up and appologize for letting my emotions get the best of me.  i really hope that we can clear things up.  What I will do is start a new thread for anyone interested in DWC, because I really do not want to ruin someone elses.  I just want to help and be helped.  So stoney if you are around, I will publicly say what I have said privately to you, I truly am sorry.

I think with all of the knowledge we have here this is the best community of growers in the world.

Peace, love and prosperity
Massproducer


----------



## Mutt (Mar 2, 2006)

I think an aero and DWC section would be great. IMHO. there is a comments and suggestions area where you can recommend this. As those forms of Hydro are different then the more "conventional" forms of Hydro. I am very curious on those types.Stoney's a good guy. problem with Cultivation everybody does things a little different. but as long as it grows, thats all that matters.  

Hope you guys work it out. I like both of your guys posts.


----------



## Stoney Bud (Mar 2, 2006)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Yes, I argee Hick, Stoney does know his shit, and being a newbie to this forum I just do not want to make any more enemies, i have sent stoney a pm to try and clear things up and appologize for letting my emotions get the best of me. i really hope that we can clear things up. What I will do is start a new thread for anyone interested in DWC, because I really do not want to ruin someone elses. I just want to help and be helped. So stoney if you are around, I will publicly say what I have said privately to you, I truly am sorry.
> 
> I think with all of the knowledge we have here this is the best community of growers in the world.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Massproducer, I guess you and I got carried away with our opinions in this thread and it turned into something distasteful and unnecessary.

We've cleaned up the thread and hopefully erased the hard feelings it created. I'm also sorry for letting my temper rule my keyboard.

Obviously, many improvements have been made since I last tried DWC. Hell, even the name "DWC" is new to me. I should have cooled my jets and opened my mind instead of my mouth.

I look forward to learning of the new advances made in DWC from you. Please instruct all of us. I'll enjoy reading your upcoming thread.

You might find this amusing; In your sig block you use the phrase "Peace, love and prosperity". For years, I've used a phrase that is almost identical:

Peace, love and LOTS of money,

Stoney.

In my lifelong quest for money, I've tended to think inaccurately of money being prosperity. As I know now, it's really only a piece of it.


----------



## massproducer (Mar 2, 2006)

Stoney, I feel as though someone has just lifted a 1000lb dumbell off of my chest , I am so happy that we could work this out, i guess that i do not have to leave this wonderful forum after all, thank you, thank you, thank you .

It is going to be a pleasure to learn from you.


----------



## Stoney Bud (Mar 2, 2006)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Stoney, I am so happy that we could work this out . It is going to be a pleasure to learn from you.


Hey man, same here. 

I'm looking forward to your DWC thread. We can always use more information in the group. Because of the recent influx of new members, it's difficult for all of the questions to be answered every day. It'll be great to have another helping hand.


----------



## Hick (Mar 2, 2006)

Thanks guys!!!!


----------



## Stoney Bud (Mar 2, 2006)

Hick said:
			
		

> Thanks guys!!!!  Stoney's kinda' old 'n grouchy


What do you mean "old"? I met a 101 old women recently and I felt like a kid next to her. No shit! Hahahahahahaaha.

I am a grouchy old bastard! Thanks for your patience with me. I've just got to start smoking more weed!


----------



## GanjaGuru (Mar 2, 2006)

I'm so old that when I went to school they didn't have History.


----------



## Weeddog (Mar 3, 2006)

All you old fogeys make me feel right at home...


----------



## sicnarf (Mar 3, 2006)

you must be around 300,000 years old!


----------



## Opy Yutts (Mar 5, 2006)

My wife is an expert. She has been activities director at a retirement community for a long time. She says that old is about 100 or so, not 70. Maybe you are officially old when you stop having sex.

Glad to see you guys being civil.


----------

