# Replacing HPS w/ LED?



## 420itadmin (Nov 27, 2009)

Yup, its official, Im addicted to growing... hopefully my reef tank doesn't get neglected! 

Ok guys, there has been STRIDES in LED lighting over the years. While window shopping for an HPS (would 400w hps be sufficient for a 6x6x5ish room, 6 plants?) I stumbled across this little beauty.

Go to ebay, search item number 270491627657

Specs:
Diameter: 10.5 Inches
Depth: 2.5 Inches
Number of LED's: 90
Total Wattage: 90
Lifecycle: 50,000hrs
UV LED: 425nm
Red LED: 660nm


Uses only 90 watts?!

But wait!
"In our 2009 LED Growlight Showdown, our winner (Lighthouse Hydro) employed a unique LED. After our analysis, we concluded that the reason for the win was the use of a mixture of 630nm UV/Blue LEDs rather than the traditional blue 660nm LEDs used in all other LED systems tested. This is confirmed from the spectrum usage graphs above.

So in usable lumens we have the 3900 lumen 90w LED from Lighthouse Hydro vs the 400w 6800 lumens of a Sun Agro bulb.

LED= 43 usable lumens / watt HID= 17 usable lumens / watt

Yes, the LED is superior but based on lumens/watt alone a 90w total output is not equivalent to a 400w HID light.

On Lumen output alone, a 90w LED does not match the 400 HID light system. In usable lumens alone the conversion is more like 90w LED = 230w HID (HPS/MH)"



So, get two, your going to spend about $300 and youll match the lumens

BUUuuuuut, your only burning 180w total.

What do you guys think?


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## fleshstain (Nov 27, 2009)

you may match the lumen output with 2 of those LED ufo's.... BUT, you're going to need way more than 2 to sufficiently light a 6' x 6' grow are.... i think by the time you got enough of the ufo's to supply enough light you may wind up spending more than you could on a couple HID's....

i'd say you're best bet is to get a good 600W HPS, or 2, and grow for what you know....


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## PUFF MONKEY (Nov 27, 2009)

you get way more than 6800 lumens from a 400w sun agro bulb...i think it's more like 50,000....


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## fleshstain (Nov 27, 2009)

wow! i think i totally missed that line.... thanks PUFF!

420.... my Hortilux 400W HPS bulb is rated at 55000 lumens.... where did you get the 6800 number for a HPS bulb from because that is highly inaccurate?


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## Growdude (Nov 28, 2009)

2 600 watt HPS would be best in that size grow,  good luck with LED's


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## pickle (Nov 28, 2009)

I'm actually growing right now with the ufo leds. I have one for vegging. The vegging area is 3x2. 1 ufo 90w covers that area fine. From all the reading I've come across, the lumens dont matter as much with leds. My flower area is 6x3 and I'm covering that area with 1 ufo 90 w and 1 120w led. I'm getting ready to start a grow journal in the next day or 2. There is another thread on here covering a led grow check it out, you might be surprised.


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## BBFan (Nov 28, 2009)

PUFF MONKEY said:
			
		

> you get way more than 6800 lumens from a 400w sun agro bulb...i think it's more like 50,000....


 
Hey _Puff Monkey_ and_ Fleshstain_-

The OP is correct (though I didn't check his math exactly) as he is referring to usable lumens per watt based on the plant sensitivity curve or photosynthetic reaction (PAR) values. With the right spectrums in the led set-up, your usable lumens per watt go way up. Unfortunately the absolute best leds in terms of nm spectrum are still too expensive to produce for commercially available units.

Lumens are based on human eye perception, not plant reactivity and most of our perception is in the green-yellow range which is of little use to plants, so a light can have a high lumen output but still be very ineffective for growing.

But, that being said, I'm not yet convinced nor have I seen any information regarding penetration efficacy using leds- and nothing I have read to date has motivated me to purchase LED's, even as supplemental lighting.

Also, _420itadmin_:



> After our analysis, we concluded that the reason for the win was the use of a mixture of 630nm UV/Blue LEDs rather than the traditional blue 660nm LEDs used in all other LED systems tested. This is confirmed from the spectrum usage graphs above.


 
Perhaps I am misreading this (if so I apologize) and the graphs referenced were not included in your post, but 630nm wavelength in the orange range and 660nm wavelength is in the red range, not blue as the quote you posted suggests, unless I'm missing something.

LED's will definitely be in all of our future insofar as growing is concerned. Though again, I've not seen convincing enough results to make the switch yet. The amount of grams/watt will probably be better with LED's at this point, but it's going to take a lot of LED's to do it.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Nov 28, 2009)

The real trouble with LEDs at this point is that they are still fairly expensive and they have virtually NO penetrating power.  If I was LSTing Lowryders, I _might_ consider LEDs--actually probably not, I believe that I would use T5s over LEDs...


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## LEFTHAND (Nov 28, 2009)

*The problem with LED's that i have seen.. ev no penatration power.. pricy.....
there good to about 2ft at absoulut max.. then your ladies get ugly streched, and stringy looking... few goood buds.. but if one was keep them 2" off the plants and  use them for a SOG  only to about 18-20" max you would have nice plants using all the the lights capabitlities... just my thoughts man, good luck...
i would stick with the HPS till you have a few grows and know...
LH
( let me state im no expert nor do i claim so...)*


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## viper1951 (Nov 28, 2009)

I have been wanting to use leds but right now there technology is not up for the challenge  I figure that within one year we will have a lot better leds that will do the job   but as for right now a hid wins hands down for your size of grow room I wouldn't use anything less then a 600 hps I use 1000 watts where ever I can as if you run then on 240 volt they are pretty cheap to run  you can run 2 for one compared to 120 volt you may have to string a 240 lead to your grow room but well worth the effort  you can also use  a rotary phase converter about a 3 hp it will make the electricity that you need at very little cost   what it does is take single phase and converts it to 3 phase 240  so now you have 3 120 volt leads  use any 2 and you got 240 volts  you must remember one thing if it's not being used as a motor then it becomes a generator  so in fact you create your own power at little cost basically for the cost of running a motor on the floor with no load . I used one with my milling machine and it powered my whole garage with very little increase in electricity use  if you have your own home this would be the best as when your lights shut off for the night  this in turns will help power your house and reduce your power bill  they are a little pricey but if you are going to stay in this it is the way to go  and you can go with bigger  phase converters  and make even more power   they run about 375.00 but in one year  you will get your money back  and be more efficient and start putting more money back in your pocket where it belongs  if you are really concerned about saving money I would give this a real thought  my Buddie had one and ran a ton of stuff on his  and was selling the unused electricity back to the power company  this is stuff they don't want you to know about  just a thought they can be purchased from xxx.use-enco.com


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## leafminer (Nov 28, 2009)

he is referring to usable lumens per watt based on the plant sensitivity curve or photosynthetic reaction (PAR) values. With the right spectrums in the led set-up, your usable lumens per watt go way up

- Do you have any PROOF of this?

I have made a point of checking out the LED grows on MP. And while I don't like to make individual comments, I am very much less than impressed. I see plants that develop much later than mine; that are stringy; that have everything 'up top'.

 Plants evolved on our planet to use full spectrum. The idea of plants being able to develop properly under two specific wavelengths of light is plain stupid. Maybe white LED lamps would be effective. However as I have previously pointed out, with links to proven science sites, white LEDs are only as efficient as HIDs, and a hell of a lot more expensive.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Nov 28, 2009)

viper1951 said:
			
		

> if you run then on 240 volt they are pretty cheap to run  you can run 2 for one compared to 120 volt http://www.use-enco.com



This is simply not true.  It costs the same to run a 1000W light whether you are running on 240 or 120.


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## leafminer (Nov 28, 2009)

viper1951 said:
			
		

> I have been wanting to use leds but right now there technology is not up for the challenge  I figure that within one year we will have a lot better leds that will do the job   but as for right now a hid wins hands down for your size of grow room I wouldn't use anything less then a 600 hps I use 1000 watts where ever I can as if you run then on 240 volt they are pretty cheap to run  you can run 2 for one compared to 120 volt you may have to string a 240 lead to your grow room but well worth the effort  you can also use  a rotary phase converter about a 3 hp it will make the electricity that you need at very little cost   what it does is take single phase and converts it to 3 phase 240  so now you have 3 120 volt leads  use any 2 and you got 240 volts  you must remember one thing if it's not being used as a motor then it becomes a generator  so in fact you create your own power at little cost basically for the cost of running a motor on the floor with no load . I used one with my milling machine and it powered my whole garage with very little increase in electricity use  if you have your own home this would be the best as when your lights shut off for the night  this in turns will help power your house and reduce your power bill  they are a little pricey but if you are going to stay in this it is the way to go  and you can go with bigger  phase converters  and make even more power   they run about 375.00 but in one year  you will get your money back  and be more efficient and start putting more money back in your pocket where it belongs  if you are really concerned about saving money I would give this a real thought  my Buddie had one and ran a ton of stuff on his  and was selling the unused electricity back to the power company  this is stuff they don't want you to know about  just a thought they can be purchased from xxx.use-enco.com



- I have a hardly used perpetual motion machine, if you're interested?


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## BBFan (Nov 28, 2009)

leafminer said:
			
		

> he is referring to usable lumens per watt based on the plant sensitivity curve or photosynthetic reaction (PAR) values. With the right spectrums in the led set-up, your usable lumens per watt go way up
> 
> - Do you have any PROOF of this?
> 
> Plants evolved on our planet to use full spectrum. The idea of plants being able to develop properly under two specific wavelengths of light is plain stupid. Maybe white LED lamps would be effective. However as I have previously pointed out, with links to proven science sites, white LEDs are only as efficient as HIDs, and a hell of a lot more expensive.


 
Hey Leafminer- How you doing today?

What do you need to see proof of? PAR? It's really basic lighting terminology. Photosynthetically Active Radiation, or PAR, is simply a way of measuring light that photosynthetic organisms (through chlorophyl) can use in photosynthesis. There is nothing to prove there. I can link you to sources if you would like to read more.

The absorbance and action spectrums at different wavelengths, measured in nanometers, are well established. Chlorophyl reacts better to light in the blue spectrum and the red spectrum. People see better in the green and yellow spectrums.  Plants look green to us because they reflect green light.

All that being said, I agree with you 100% that HID outperforms LED by far. However, LED's can better fine tune their output to the pinpoint spectrums that plants show the greatest response to- therefore creating more usable lumens per watt, as I stated above.  Doesn't mean it puts out enough, just that it can be finer tuned.  Someday, we will all be using LED's for indoor growing.  We're not there yet, but we will be.

And actually, on a PAR basis, MH are better than HPS in usable lumens per watt- but the HPS puts out so many more lumens that it overcomes this shortcoming.

Have a good evening, my friend.


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## dman1234 (Nov 28, 2009)

i cant wait until we all use Led.

heat and power usage will be issues of the past.


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## leafminer (Nov 28, 2009)

"In our 2009 LED Growlight Showdown, our winner (Lighthouse Hydro) employed a unique LED. After our analysis, we concluded that the reason for the win was the use of a mixture of 630nm UV/Blue LEDs rather than the traditional blue 660nm LEDs used in all other LED systems tested. This is confirmed from the spectrum usage graphs above."

1. Almost all the energy of a 400W HPS is in the 580 - 640nm region. Why would you want to use a 660nm LED? :confused2: 

2. See the attached picture.
*Quote from supplier:*
we concluded that the reason for the win was the use of a mixture of 630nm UV/Blue LEDs rather than the traditional blue 660nm LEDs used in all other LED systems
BLUE is the spectrum 380nm to 500nm! 

As you can see, the supplier is talking complete and utter nonsense and appears to have no knowledge of lighting whatsoever. Why would anyone want to buy a product from a no-nothing? How can anyone have any confidence in anything that person says?


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## fleshstain (Nov 28, 2009)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Someday, we will all be using LED's for indoor growing.  We're not there yet, but we will be.



personally, as long as they make flouro's and HID's, i'll stick with the tried and true methods....


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## Raisin Jackson (Nov 29, 2009)

I believe on a watt for watt basis LEDs can outperform HIDs but that's a lot of led to fill a room, and you do need a different grow style. But if you need 2000 watts of hps, your gonna need the same in led, the stuff where they say the 90 watt led outperforms a 400 watt hps is crap, 400 watts of led would beat 400 watts of hps though. While I certainly need to refine my grow style to better suit the LEDs I'm still sure that ultimately I'll get more in my closet with LEDs that I ever could with hps due to power usage and heat- if I need 1000 watts to make it ideal, I wouldn't want all the heat and all the other power needs of blowers running constantly. I have experience with alot of different lights and I think a 600 watt hps is pretty tough to beat, but in smaller space grows like in a closet or growbox, LEDs are definately the future. Plus there's balancing the ** of the led makers out with the close minded LEDs suck crowds opinions.


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## Growdude (Nov 29, 2009)

viper1951 said:
			
		

> I have been wanting to use leds but right now there technology is not up for the challenge  I figure that within one year we will have a lot better leds that will do the job   but as for right now a hid wins hands down for your size of grow room I wouldn't use anything less then a 600 hps I use 1000 watts where ever I can as if you run then on 240 volt they are pretty cheap to run  you can run 2 for one compared to 120 volt you may have to string a 240 lead to your grow room but well worth the effort  you can also use  a rotary phase converter about a 3 hp it will make the electricity that you need at very little cost   what it does is take single phase and converts it to 3 phase 240  so now you have 3 120 volt leads  use any 2 and you got 240 volts  you must remember one thing if it's not being used as a motor then it becomes a generator  so in fact you create your own power at little cost basically for the cost of running a motor on the floor with no load . I used one with my milling machine and it powered my whole garage with very little increase in electricity use  if you have your own home this would be the best as when your lights shut off for the night  this in turns will help power your house and reduce your power bill  they are a little pricey but if you are going to stay in this it is the way to go  and you can go with bigger  phase converters  and make even more power   they run about 375.00 but in one year  you will get your money back  and be more efficient and start putting more money back in your pocket where it belongs  if you are really concerned about saving money I would give this a real thought  my Buddie had one and ran a ton of stuff on his  and was selling the unused electricity back to the power company  this is stuff they don't want you to know about  just a thought they can be purchased from xxx.use-enco.com




Phase converters dont "produce" any electricity.

What they do is "lag" one legg of power to mimic a 3 phase line. This puts one leg 180 degrees out of phase.

3 phase more is more efficient than single phase but the the phase converter is a a load and therefore will cost more to operate.


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## LEFTHAND (Nov 29, 2009)

Raisin Jackson said:
			
		

> I believe on a watt for watt basis LEDs can outperform HIDs but that's a lot of led to fill a room, and you do need a different grow style. But if you need 2000 watts of hps, your gonna need the same in led, the stuff where they say the 90 watt led outperforms a 400 watt hps is crap, 400 watts of led would beat 400 watts of hps though. While I certainly need to refine my grow style to better suit the LEDs I'm still sure that ultimately I'll get more in my closet with LEDs that I ever could with hps due to power usage and heat- if I need 1000 watts to make it ideal, I wouldn't want all the heat and all the other power needs of blowers running constantly. I have experience with alot of different lights and I think a 600 watt hps is pretty tough to beat, but in smaller space grows like in a closet or growbox, LEDs are definately the future. Plus there's balancing the ** of the led makers out with the close minded LEDs suck crowds opinions.


 
*the only way they "out do HID" is if you keep small plants no bigger then 18" 2ft at absolute max... look at the led grows they look awsome to the point of where the penetration goes kaaaaaaaaaaaput.....  then they sting out.... they need to get better penatration power then yes i can see them being the "WAVE" of the future.. but back in the day.. the HID was pricey.....*
*LH*


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## viper (Nov 29, 2009)

i read where  Growing strictly under sodiums has its advantages in terms of yield per watt, but is still lacking as far as a balanced spectrum when compared to a mix of HPS and halide.Anyone that has ever seen a mixed light garden can testify that the healthiest, most crystallized buds occur where the two spectrums overlap.  The UV factor, as metal halide bulbs emit a fair amount of UV while HPS emit almost none. Most growers employing halides in conjunction with HPS do so at a 2:1 HPS:halide ratio. Many growers, especially those restricted to one light, have been having good success using one of the new enhanced metal halide bulbs such as Sunmaster or son agro , which have a more balanced spectrum than either sodium or regular halide alone.


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## fleshstain (Nov 29, 2009)

while this is true, usually a MH doesn't quite match up to HPS in the lumens-per-watt category that it seems most people are concerned about....

a perfect example is the 600W HPS or MH.... the Hortilux HPS bulbs are rated at 95000 which equals 158 lumens per watt.... +/- 1%.... the MH conversion bulb that i can find locally is rated at 55000 lumens which equals 91 lumens per watt.... +/- 1%....

so, basically i'd have to run 2 of the conversion bulbs totaling 1200W of power consumption to get about the same amount of usable light.... in this scenario, it would seem the wiser choice, if you had to run 2 600's, to run HPS and double your usable light output and flowering space....

also, i do realize that there are newer 600W MH conversion bulbs with a higher lumen ration and that some MH's do output more usuable lumens than the equivalent HPS.... however, as someone who used to have do purchasing of light bulbs through mail order for a past job, i do not trust any carriers with something that fragile.... i've seen even the best packaged bulbs arrive broken.... therefore, i'm stuck with what i can find locally....


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