# T12's help or not worth my time?



## Kanibus

I have a T12 light setup for 2 4 foot bulbs, would it be worth my time, energy and money to set this up with my other CFL's for veg? Right now I could have them both going with my seedlings until I start the trimming for clones, but if it's not worth my money to run the 80 watts along with the CFLs I'll just grab some more CFLs.


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## lordhighlama

I ran some 12's for a while with decent success.  Definitely not t5's but check your bulb output and you might be presently surprised at the lumens.


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## slowmo77

i've ysed them in the past in a small veg area along with some cfl's. can't remember what size t12's thet were but they work pretty good for what they were.


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## Droopy Dog

I use mine for clones and sometimes, moms.

I veg under T-5 HO's. If there is room, the moms go there. If not, under the T-12's.

DD


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## The Hemp Goddess

Kanibus said:
			
		

> I have a T12 light setup for 2 4 foot bulbs, would it be worth my time, energy and money to set this up with my other CFL's for veg? Right now I could have them both going with my seedlings until I start the trimming for clones, but if it's not worth my money to run the 80 watts along with the CFLs I'll just grab some more CFLs.



How large is your veg space and and how much lighting do you have now?  

However, if you need to buy more lights, I would recommend a small HPS rather than more CFLs.  Lumen for lumen, CFLs generally cost more to purchase initially, cost about twice as much in electricity each month, put out more heat, and produce less bud than a HPS.


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## slowmo77

ya if you look around you can find 150w MH or HPS light pretty cheap


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## Kanibus

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> How large is your veg space and and how much lighting do you have now?
> 
> However, if you need to buy more lights, I would recommend a small HPS rather than more CFLs.  Lumen for lumen, CFLs generally cost more to purchase initially, cost about twice as much in electricity each month, put out more heat, and produce less bud than a HPS.


It's about 5'x2' closet for the mother/clones. My issue with the HPS/MH (that I use in my flowering tent) is the heat. Which size HPS would I find that puts out less heat than CFLs? I can literally touch the CFL bulbs, but I saw what my 400w HPS with a cool tube did to my bud when it touched lol.

This will just be for veg as I have a flowering tent setup, trying to do a SOG type of thing.


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## Kanibus

slowmo77 said:
			
		

> ya if you look around you can find 150w MH or HPS light pretty cheap


Those run pretty cool temperature wise?


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## The Hemp Goddess

Kanibus said:
			
		

> It's about 5'x2' closet for the mother/clones. My issue with the HPS/MH (that I use in my flowering tent) is the heat. Which size HPS would I find that puts out less heat than CFLs? I can literally touch the CFL bulbs, but I saw what my 400w HPS with a cool tube did to my bud when it touched lol.
> 
> This will just be for veg as I have a flowering tent setup, trying to do a SOG type of thing.



If this is just for veg, go ahead an try the T12s and see how they do for you.  I do not use a MH for vegging anymore.  I have fallen in love with T5s for vegging and that is all I use now.


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## Locked

I lifted this from elsewhere....the credit goes to cmd for posting it in the first place...maybe it will help.

"
T8 versus T5 Fluorescent: A Brief Analysis


1. What do the alpha numeric codes T5 and T8 actually mean? 
Much has been made of the differences between T5 technology and T8 technology. I think it is wise to begin by discussing what T5 and T8 actually indicate. The letter &#8216;T&#8217; in the lighting industry stands for &#8220;tubular.&#8221; This makes sense when one considers that fluorescent tubes are in fact tubular. The number directly following the letter &#8220;T&#8221; indicates the thickness or diameter of that particular tube in eighths of an inch.
T12 = twelve eighths of an inch in diameter or one and one-half inches thick
T8 = eight eighths of an inch in diameter or one inch thick
T5 = five eighths of an inch in diameter or five eighths of an inch thick
2. What have these alpha numeric codes come to mean? 
As interest in energy saving technologies has grown and become popularized, these codes have come to designate levels of energy efficiency, instead of merely indicating lamp tube diameter.
Assumptions of Efficiency:
T12 = old and inefficient
T8 = higher efficiency
T5 = highest efficiency
Although, these assumptions are generally true, it is important to look at the application and determine the cost benefit of T5 over T8 in order to determine if the increased efficiency of T5 justifies the substantial increase in initial and long term maintenance costs.
3. General Assumptions of Cost 
Consider that a standard 4 foot T12 lamp costs between $1.25 and $2.00, a standard T8 lamp between $1.75 and $2.50 and a standard T5 lamp costs between $5.50 and $10.50. T5 costs significantly more than T8 and does not outperform it by the same margin. In fact, in many applications, the performance differences are negligible. Furthermore, all lamps are equally weighted with an average life of 20 000 hours.
General Assumptions of Cost:
T12 = lowest lamp, ballast and fixture cost
T8 = approx. 20% more expensive than T12
T5 = 3-4 times the cost of T8
4. Why is T5 the best and how does that apply?
There are several different factors that determine levels of efficiency. Quality of light measured in CRI (Colour Rendering Index), quantity of light measured in LPW (Lumens per Watt) and CU (Co-efficiency of utilization.) The numbers being used for CU are general for those used in the low level (12 feet and under) multi-residential environment so there can be fluctuations.
CRI levels:LPW levels:CU (Generally):T12 = 62CRIT12 = 78LPWT12 = .46CUT8 = 85CRIT8 = 92LPWT8 = .76CUT5 = 85CRIT5 = 103LPWT5 = .90CUConsidering these general factors, it is obvious that T5 is the best. But, how much better? With all factors weighed equally, a general presumption can be made, that:
a. T8 is 40% more efficient than T12.
b. T5 is 51% more efficient than T12.
Yet, T5 in this environment is only 9% more efficient than T8. This would never justify the substantial increase in fixture, lamp and ballast costs.
Furthermore, if energy savings is an issue, you can often lower the light output by 9 or 10 percent in order to recover the efficiency without any real impact to the perceived light levels.
5. Weather Conditions and Long Term Performance
The standard 32 watt T8 and an electronic ballast with a low temperature rating, are proven performers in a wide array of extreme applications. The systems are tried, tested and true in parking garages, factories, extreme cold environments and the list goes on. T5&#8217;s don&#8217;t have the track record in extreme applications.
We believe the manufacturers are still &#8220;working out the bugs&#8221; as the largest portion of our warranty work involves defective T5 lamps and ballasts.
Furthermore, T8 lamps and ballasts are now commodity items and can be purchased at low costs. T5 is still a premium product, whose research and development costs haven&#8217;t even been fully realized, let alone the process to produce commoditized to create low cost, highly reliable, replacement parts.
6. Conclusion 
The &#8220;bottom line&#8221; is that T5 is superior to T8 in that it creates more usable light. However, it is not a &#8220;game changing&#8221; technology in that its superiority renders T8 obsolete (as is the case with T12). Ontario incentive program through the Ontario Power Authority pays the same incentives on T5&#8217;s as they do on T8&#8217;s.
Finally, the real game changer will be LED and organic LED technologies. These technologies will render both T5 and T8 obsolete in the future. However, these technologies have not arrived as yet, and are not in the imminent horizon for fluorescent fixture applications. For the mean time, T8 and T5 will continue to be the reliable, energy efficient choice for a multitude of general applications. The astute lighting designer will specify based on individual project demands, not by an allegiance to one technology."


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## roadapple

Looking for the Thank you button!


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## Kanibus

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> I lifted this from elsewhere....the credit goes to cmd for posting it in the first place...maybe it will help.


Thanks Hamster! Appricaite that article it did help.

Upon further research it appears that T5 isn't just T5 there's T5HO (high output) so I think that's what they're comparing T8 and T12 to. 

T12 40 watt ~ 2300
T8 34 watt ~ 2900 (Lowes had 2800lumens)
T5 28 watt ~ 2900
T5HO 54watt ~ 5000+

hXXp://www.buylighting.com/T5-Fluorescent-s/103.htm
That Buylighting lists some High Output T12's at 4400 lumens per tube for 60 watts. Doesn't look like a huge different in any of them really (taking the temperature from environment out of the equation).

Looks like I'll grab some T12's for a couple bucks, doesn't seem to hurt. The CFL lights I get are about 1600 lumens each for 23 watts, so those seem to be the best way to go, unless I want to go with the T5HO route and buy another setup.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Yes, when I am talking about T5s, I am talking about the T5HO--that is all I use for veg.


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## Dr.Autoflower

I got a 4ft fixture along with 2 6500k (and on the box of the light but i dont no if it ment for 1 or both tubes but that wouldnt make sense) 3050 lumens.and its T12 is this right?


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## The Hemp Goddess

blunt man said:
			
		

> I got a 4ft fixture along with 2 6500k (and on the box of the light but i dont no if it ment for 1 or both tubes but that wouldnt make sense) 3050 lumens.and its T12 is this right?



I'm confused....what do you mean "is this right?"  Is what right?


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## Dr.Autoflower

is this a misprint or disinformation or  can 1 T12 put out 3050luimens?


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## blancolighter

That would be about right for 4 foot 6500k T12. I use em too, rigged up some fixtures when I had no money for t5s. Plants veg well under them, they stretch a little more than my plants under the t5s, but still quite acceptable.


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## Dr.Autoflower

my autos did barley grow on em. they may turn into clone lights


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