# Upside Down Red Diesel SCROG Journal



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 14, 2009)

:holysheep: 
Hi all,
  So after being told it was impossible to grow a plant upside down I immediately tried it...I hate being told I can't do something don't you?
  In answering someone else's post I mentioned how much I hate reflectors and think they are a waste of money.  I was asked to prove it, so here I am!
  For this journal I am going to be using two Barney's Farm Red Diesel plants.  These two plants were part of a group of 3 that were grown from seed and rejected as potential mothers for the garden.  There is nothing wrong with them, the third was just much more hardy and since it has already been sexed as female, I do not wish to continue with these two.  They were going to be destroyed but I decided to do this journal instead.  Unfortunately since these two plants came from seed I am unaware of the sex yet.  Therefore hopefully at least one of the two will end up female and the journal can continue through the entire growth cycle.  
  My other hope with this journal was to take two clones that were near identical in their growth, and do an upside down SCROG and a right side up SCROG in order to compare yield, but that will have to wait for another day.
  Before we go any further I just want to mention two safety precautions I took for this experiment.  First, I never ever ever ever hang a plant directly over my lights (cool tubes with reflector removed so light can exit the tube a full 360 degrees).  You never want to have moisture drip on a running bulb, you are just asking to kill yourself.  When I water the hanging plants I remove them completely from the garden, water them, and allow all excess moisture to drain before returning the hanging planter, this is typically done right before the lights turn on.  Secondly, all of the Topsy Turvy planters are hung and secured to the ceiling with 40 lb test hooks and chains even though filled with dirt and a fully mature plant the weight will not exceed 20 lbs.  The last this I want is a plant crashing down on other plants below....other than it crashing down on the light.

  Perhaps you are wondering why we are doing this in a SCROG.  Well the answer is simple.  Take a marijuana plant and hang it upside down for an hour, come back and all the leaves are lying pointing straight toward the ground, this is because of the way the plant has evolved, to grow against gravity.  They wll also try to turn themselves over.   Using a SCROG allows us to assist the Fan leaves in staying open toward the light.  Since no plant is ever hung directly above the light the SCROG screen will be tilted toward the light field.  It hangs 7 inches below the planter on one side and 13 on the other so that it slopes.  The screen that I am using here is 15"x16" and has rectangular holes that are 2"x3" (the screen pictured is slightly different, but it is not the one I am using although it is the same material).    
  I have selected Barney's farm Red Diesel for this journal because #1 I like it...a lot.  #2 It is a smaller plant, very Sativa dominant with smaller fan leaves that do not branch very far from the stem.  And since we are growing upside down we want to avoid plants that have a lot of potential to stretch.  Growing upside down might exaggerate stretch even more, but this is not something I am sure of.  

For those of you that are interested in why I hate reflectors, please feel free to read the following, if you are just interested in the journal please feel free to skip to the next post:
-----
  I have felt that reflectors are a big waste of money when I learned how much light they reflect versus Mylar.  Really all a hood and reflector is good for is "catching" light, and "throwing" it in one direction.  This would work great outside, but inside it does not really take advatage of man-made lights.  Why?  Because man-made light is not effective over distance.  Light loses power by a factor of 4 as distance doubles, meaning a plant 1 foot from a light receives 4 times as much light as a plant 2 feet away.  So picture your light (or look at it), all of the light it produces is being "caught", and "thrown" down.  So your bulb, which emits lights in all directions, is only illuminating a flat surface below it, this is horribly innefficient, hence the invention of systems such as the colleseium and why some are designing lights that hang vertically down from reflectors so that plants can be placed AROUND the lights.  In order to get more plants under your light and hood/reflector, you must keep RAISING your light, therefore reducing the power and lumens it is giving to each plant.  The desire to do an upside down SCROG around cool tubes with plants also growing on the floor is an attempt to take advantage of light emitting in all directions from the bulb.  To illustrate my point consider this... how many plants can you fit under a light and have them all 1 foot from your light????  You certainly can not light more than a 3 or 4 square foot area on the flat ground with a conventional light and hood only 1 foot from the ground.  However, a ball with a 1 foot radius has a surface area of over 12 feet, meaning that if you work in a 3 dimensional garden you can get much more plant surface near your lights.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 14, 2009)

Ok so here are our two plants that are hopefully female. I still need to trim off the undergrowth as well on both of them, these pics were taken right before I took the undergrowth for clones just in case one of them happens to be a great plant.   Again, they were grown from seed and rejected as potential mothers so I am still unsure of their sex.  I was going to trash them but decided to do this journal instead.  They were in pretty neglected shape so I spent a few days bringing them back.  They are both 6 weeks old and were grown in DWC under a 100 watt CFL specifically for small plants, hence the tight inter-nodal spacing.  Today I trimmed them up, took a few of the lower branches for clones, transferred them from DWC to soil, and went ahead and placed them in the flower room.
My plan is to leave them in flower for a few days in their pots before transferring them to the upside down planters in order to minimize stress. 

As you can tell they have been neglected   But with a little TLC they should be fine.


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## HippyInEngland (May 14, 2009)

This should be interesting 

Good luck :aok:

eace:


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 14, 2009)

So I have given them 5 days in the flower room to recover from the transfer and the trimming, and today they are going into the planters.  Give me a bit and I will post some pics.  The stretch from the the onset of flower and the "trim job" (sounds dirty doesn't it, like someone performing a sex act on a plant?) for the SCROG has set in so I know the transfer from their neglected DWC in the corner of my mother cabinet to the soil couldn't have stressed them out too much.

Everyone please feel free to comment


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## lordhighlama (May 14, 2009)

gonna sit in on this one if you don't mind.


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## stonedrone (May 14, 2009)

This looks interesting, I'm in.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 14, 2009)

So, I got delayed and gave the plants 5 days in the flower room before making the move upside down, and unfortunately one of two hopefuls has already shown balls!  I was shocked to already see them after such a short time but there they were, so our attempt is down to one.  Anyway here is a pic of....her? 

I will try and get another shot up in a bit when the lights turn on, and if this one shows male too I have another I can throw up there and continue the journal.

The cool thing about these planters is that they fit perfectly over the pots I had been using so I do not have to uproot the plant and move it to the planter, I can just slide the planter over the pot, flip it upside down, and presto.  The second pic was taken lying on my back underneath (you can just make out the cool tube in the top left), the 3rd pick is the plant hanging (not exactly above) the light with the ventilation system in the background and the top beginning it's weave through the scrog.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 15, 2009)

So the plant has been upside down for 24 hours.  It seems to be doing well in it's new home.  One of the first problems I am going to have to deal with is a pot leaf that is turned upside down will right itself according to gravity, not where the light is coming from.  This is why I went into this project with a SCROG in mind and this can be seen after only 24 hours of hanging upside down.  After all, we are fighting against millions of years of evolution here.  If you look at the pics closely you will notice that the leaves not held in place by the SCROG are turning back upwards, facing away from the light source.

I am happy to report that the grow tip is hanging further beneath the SCROG after only 24 hours so apparently she is still chugging along.


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## 4u2sm0ke (May 15, 2009)

:ciao:  okay  I like it..and im going to fallow along..good luck..


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## ShecallshimThor (May 15, 2009)

right on cant wait to watch her grow


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## manels1111 (May 16, 2009)

Subscribe me please


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## Ridgerunner (May 16, 2009)

pulling up a chair


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## WeedHopper (May 16, 2009)

Funny as hell. Pullen up a chair.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 17, 2009)

So it has been two days upside down, the plant is still growing, you can tell from the pic the plant tip is further below the screen and that the leaves are expanding.  Another day or two and the tip will be long enough to start weaving back through the screen.
So far so good!  Our plant is obviously stretching and growing upside down.
The leaves not held in place by the SCROG were again turned over today when the lights came on.  I am quickly realizing that this method of growing would not be economical in a large scale situation because each plant will need tweeking daily.  

But hey, the plant is growing still.

PS- I know it looks like there are two plants hanging in the pic but that is just the reflection of the one on the mylar.


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## umbra (May 17, 2009)

something new. rollin a fatty and pullin up an easy chair.


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## Exarmy (May 20, 2009)

Any updates? Hows she looking after a few more days?


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 20, 2009)

still growing strong, I will put up a pic in a bit when the lights turn on, I also need to go over her closely and see if I can sex her yet (she was a seed plant).


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 20, 2009)

So our specimen has been upside down for 6 days straight now in the flower room and been flowering for 11 days total. I am still not able to tell sex yet but our plant is still coming along. I have neglected the SCROG weaving figuring a few pics showing it still growing and stretching would be a lot more easily done without all the greenery woven up.
In this pic I held a black towel up behind the planter to block the light reflecting off the mylar, it is a lot easier to notice the growth with the black towel there since it has been placed upside down. There are more fan leaves, the tip is much further below the screen, and I am even getting new growth coming out from the main stem that I had pruned completely back. Still, any growth not held down by the screen still turns right-side up so that the undersides of the leaves are facing the light. 

Well this alone proves that a marijuana plant CAN at least survive upside upside down...hopefully the experiement proves it can actualy yield something as well, but I have no doubts at this point that the plant will live all the way through the life cycle. It may produce 2 grams of utter crap, or it may produce almost as well as a plant on the ground, but either way I am confident I can grow it to maturity....time to get in there and start weaving!!!!


(SORRY PIC IS OUT OF FOCUS A BIT)


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## hypcodiihop (May 21, 2009)

I dont think anyone doubts you can manipulate a plant to grow upside down. Just that its a lot of work manipulating a stimulus just to make it happen. 

plants contain a chemical which makes them receptive to gravity. Roots will always grow downwards due to gravitropism. and the leaves of the plant, will always grow the opposite of the roots.

but theres also phototropism, so it may overcome the leaves reaction to the certain chemical detection of gravity, and make the leaves move towards the light source. I'm not sure of the "strength" of reaction to gravity VS light in leaves. I would assume that like I said, phototropism would take lead in fan leaves, and gravitropism in the roots. Roots also detect phototropism from what I remember though. 

seems to me, and this is just speculation, making the plant work much harder to get its essentials would just draw away from THC production. 

cool experiment either way though. keep in mind all of what I said is reference to an old bio II class and some reasoning. I could be way off base. lol.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 21, 2009)

hypcodiihop said:
			
		

> I dont think anyone doubts you can manipulate a plant to grow upside down. Just that its a lot of work manipulating a stimulus just to make it happen.
> 
> plants contain a chemical which makes them receptive to gravity. Roots will always grow downwards due to gravitropism. and the leaves of the plant, will always grow the opposite of the roots.
> 
> ...


 
In order to at least address the root issue I used plants that were already established in pots with developed root systems.  Then I slipped the covers over the pots and flipped everything upside down.  This way I was not just putting the plant in the planter with all of the roots sitting in the bottom.  That is what most people assume about this experiment, that I am asking the roots to grow UP...I am not.   This way the roots have developed in their first pot down to the bottom of the pot.  When this rootball is turned upside down in the planter, the roots that were in the bottom of the pot are now at the top of the planter and can grow downward back toward the bottom of the topsy turvy bag.  Werther or not the plant is working harder for it's nutrients I am not sure...don't see why it would be, but it certainly wouldn't surprise me either if that was the case. 
Regardless, the plant is surviving upside down.  The roots in the planter upside down are absorbing nutrients and contributing to the growth below.  In a smaller grow space anything produced in these is simply bonus weed.  So even if I get 2 grams it was 2 grams I didn't have and two grams that could not have been grown in an already full garden below the lights.  I'm not expecting to grow anything that will end up featured in High Times, but if I can get more grams per watt then that is more :bong:   for me!!!!!!


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## hypcodiihop (May 21, 2009)

wasnt thinking about the space side of it. I guess in that situation making it work does have a benefit. smoke is smoke. =) 

good stuff.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 21, 2009)

hypcodiihop said:
			
		

> I would assume that like I said, phototropism would take lead in fan leaves, and gravitropism in the roots. Roots also detect phototropism from what I remember though.


 
I was hoping that phototropism would help with the fan leaves as well but unfortunately gravity has proven to be more of a trigger for the leaf's directional orientation although the leaves are still angling themselves towards the light.  I am trying to come up with ways to deal with this and so far I got two...I thought the SCROG would be enough to help keep the fan leaves facing down but it is not.  I am having to go in when the lights come on and twist each fan leaf 360 degrees and hold for about 10 seconds, releasing then causes it to turn to the position I want.  This is horribly inefficient so I am thinking about either A)  Using a second SCROG screen over the first to sandwich the fan leaves, forcing them to stay pointing the way I want, or B) changing the setup from SCROG to a single bar that could be set a certain distance below the planter and the plant stem could wrap around it and go back upwards...picture a scrog with just one weave....  In this case the planter would have to be hung so that the plant was more on a level or slightly lower height than the light, but it would still be using light emitting sideways from the bulb and not directly on the plants below.  The fan leaves would then still be able to orient themselves the way they want (up) yet still angle themselves toward the light field.  
  I think I will try using the second screen first before changing the whole design...see if that helps.


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## ShecallshimThor (May 21, 2009)

i was thinking if you pollenate asy 2-3 budds and get 5-10 seeds 
your seeds might grow upside down better
from what ive read your seeds might be bred for growing upside down


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 21, 2009)

I got balls on our test subject today, will try to update with pics in a bit, he is still growing strong though, perhaps I will try and harvest some pollen since I am not doing anything much in the room right now.  I only have 9 other plants right now in the room, so maybe I will just try and do some cross breeding.  I guess I could let this go and take the male pollen from this Red Diesel I am going to get and just let it mate with the NYC Diesel, and Jack Herer I have in the room right now, create something like Red Jack Diesel or NYC Red Diesel...lol.  Sucks to take him down after already puttign this much work in him and it would be nice to create some seeds I didn't have to spend an arm and a leg for.


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## TURKEYNECK (May 21, 2009)

shucks...a male..


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 21, 2009)

TURKEYNECK said:
			
		

> shucks...a male..


 
Not discouraged though.  I have some guaranteed female clones coming along so I will restart.  I know it can be done now.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 21, 2009)

I didn't notice it until after I posted the pic, but if you look closely at the pic above with the red circle showing the male growth you can see the main issue to be dealt with in this attempt.  The picture was taken from underneath the scrog looking up at the plant so you can see the main stem with the fan leaves shooting off from the stem.  If you blow up the pic you can see how the stems have actually twisted themselves over in darkness so that the leaves are facing up.  I have to twist these back over when the lights come on.


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## Sir_Tokie (May 28, 2009)

Hey bro it's not grown indoors but I found a pic here of a plant grown outdoors and by the looks of it gravity took over to pull a few side branches up but the rest grew down...take care..


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## Sir_Tokie (May 28, 2009)

Sorr


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## Sir_Tokie (May 28, 2009)

Sorry bro it won't enlarge for some reason but if you look close you'll see the 2 side branches reaching up...take care..


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 28, 2009)

Thanks Tokie!
  Cool pic!
  The problem I am having is with the light being below the plant.  Due to gravity the leaves turn themselves over so even though the plant is pointing down all the leaves are facing up towards the ceiling, this is why I am trying it with SCROG screens, to hold them in place.  It's cool to see that it produces well outside though, gives me more confidence


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## HippyInEngland (May 28, 2009)

This is fascinating.

So even though the light is below the plant the leaves are twisting away from the light.

Are all the leaves doing it?

eace:


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## crozar (May 28, 2009)

maybe because its upside down you the plant doesnt understand whats going on lol so your twisting hes life in a weird way , lets hope that twist is a dejavu for MAXIMUM YEILD QUALITY


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 28, 2009)

HippyInEngland said:
			
		

> This is fascinating.
> 
> So even though the light is below the plant the leaves are twisting away from the light.
> 
> ...


 
Yeap, all of them.  They will try to orient themselves towards the light as best they can, but it takes time to do it on their own.  By the time they orient themselves so that they are getting light on the leaf surface, the 12 hour light period is over, and gravity turns them back over in the dark.  Kind of cool to see actually.  The tip of the plant will stay open down towards the light, apparently because there are no stems developed yet to these leaves so their is no stem to twist and turn over the leaf.  However even these new leaf shoots will twist in the leaf blades themselves.  Since there is no stem to twist, the blade itself will twist so that anywhere from the first 1/3 to 1/2 will be pointing down and the rest of the blade towards the tip will be turning over in the darkness.    
  When I trimmed up the plant to be put upside down I trimmed ALL growth along the main stem down to the stem, leaving only the top for the SCROG.  Well by the time I pulled the male subject, one of the cool things it had started doing was producing new shoots off the main stem where I had trimmed.  These new shoots came in growing straight up towards the ceiling.  They did not grow in pointing down and then re-orient themselves up.  These shoots, and it may be because they were so small, seemed better able to turn when the lights came on.  It was as if this new growth, since it was beginning when the plant had already established itself upside down, was better prepared for the conditions.  

I blew up one of the pics from the other page below.  This pic was taken shortly after the lights came on, probably about 90 minutes.  The light is located below and to the right of the plant in the image.  You can see the new shoots coming off the main stalk circled in red.  The new growth on the right side has angled itself down towards the light only 90 minutes after the lights are on.  The shoot on the left side that is being shaded is in the same position.  But you can see how the shoots are coming in growing straight up instead of down (rightside up according to the plant), I found this REALLY odd and unexpected.  I was expecting new shoot growth off the main stem to come in pointing down and then orient itself to grow back up, I wasnt' expecting the shoots to come in that way.

Gotta love trying new things


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## Rockster (May 28, 2009)

Hmm,this is interesting NYCDxJH as you've got 2 properties of plant growth seemingly in conflict,namely,phototropisms and geotropisms,so the plant will naturally want to bend up against gravity yet the light is below.

To overcome gravity's effect you could mount the growroom on a motorised table revolving at 1 revolution per pay,or maybe slightly higher and that would then have 'authority'over gravity in that the plant would grow into the screen just fine but then ya have to think......well,just turn it all over and lose the revolving table!

Really good you are trying this though,as we will all learn a lot about the nature of the plant as it's responding to unique stimuli.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jun 8, 2009)

attempt #2 coming this week and it is a female clone so this one can hopefully go through to the end.


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## Weezy (Jun 8, 2009)

Haha nice.  I saw those bags and almost got some for tomatoes.  I have also seen tomatoes grown upside down before in a downtown Indianapolis park...its definately possible.


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