# I can't stop mainlining (Manifold first timer)



## sopappy

I'm following a mainlining tutorial on groweedeasy that has left me hanging.
I know how to top and pluck the lower shoots and fan leaves.
I only want 4 colas so I want to stop at 4th node where I'm supposed to top for 4 more colas.
How do I stop? I don't want to top or I get more branches so do I cut the two shoots or just leave it alone?
-thanks


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## Gooch

any chance you can post a link to the tute?


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## sopappy

Of course, Gooch, it's the growweedeasy.com site, lots of good reading and pictures.
http://www.growweedeasy.com/manifold
my plants are all legs!
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70733&page=20


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## Rosebud

Check this out.. http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26682


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## sMACkaddict

Hey, pappy, this is pretty interesting.  I want to try this out on one plant, curious about the recovery time in soil...  The amount of leaves and branches you have to remove is insane!!  And intimidating... Haha, looking forward to watching you dabble in this, I winder if other ppl on MP have tried this...

Rosebud, I had the same thought!!  Unfortunately, fimming doesn't work with this the technique and doesn't achieve the same goals... The nug bucket tut covers that briefly...  http://www.growweedeasy.com/mainlining-nugbuckets


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## Hushpuppy

I have seen this before. It is a very effective method that is similar in a way to scrog in that you are trying to control the height and evenness of the canopy. However, there is one flaw in this method(well actually 2 flaws). One is that this method will only work with plants that are not sexually mature yet while doing the training. It is best used on plants from seed. It can't be done with as good of results (if at all) with cloned plants that are already sexually mature as the nodes are already alternating.

This method has to be done on the young plants that are only about 3-5 nodes tall, as the nodes are symmetrical with each other(the leaves grow out in pairs rather than staggered). Then all you do is *top *the plant that has 5 nodes, at(just above) the 3rd or 4th node. This will cause a stem "pair" to grow equally up and away. As soon as the node pair grow up a few cm(an inch or 2), you will bend them over in opposite directions and tie them down so that they remain horizontal. Once the growth continues out and turns up enough for the next 2 node pairs to fully emerge, you then *top *each stem by snipping away the growth that is above the first set of leaves, after they turn to vertical.

That will result in there being 4 branches that will emerge. 2 branches on each side of the first "T". Once they grow out enough to handle them, you would bend these 4 over to horizontal and tie them to hold them in this position(bending these 4 branches so that each branch pair will be split away from itself as you did with the first top and bend). once these 4 branches grow out some, the stem will have formed an "H" pattern when looking down from above. You can stop at this point if you have an Indica dominant plant and grow a 4 stemmed plant, or you can continue to top and split the node pairs until the plant reaches sexual maturity(when the nodes begin to alternate). 

I suspect that you will rarely get more than 16 main branches with this method before the nodes begin to alternate. You will also have to go back and remove any extra growth below the "tops" that are created so that all the energy is directed to the tops of these "main" lines of growth. 

While this is an interesting method for those who don't want to scrog, the scrog method will achieve the same results and be a little less complicated to do. In my opinion. However, if you are limited to just 1-2 plants and you have a lot of area to work with, you could do the mainline method and then place a screen over the 8 branches and then allow them to grow out horizontally beneath the screen(by continuously tucking the new growth under the screen) until they are ready to flower and then flip your lighting to 12/12 and allow all of the side branching that comes off the 8 major branches to come up through the screen to be the bud branches.  

It sounds complicated but its not really. You just have to remember the steps and then keep tucking the new growth until 2 weeks after you have flipped the lights to 12/12


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> trimmed



yup, from seed, for the even nodes
tutorial suggests waiting for 7th node, then topping at 3rd
then I lost you....holy **** , man WHAT are you on about? 
I'm a hobbyist. You MUST dummy down for me.
You are correct about 16 cola max, 8 is recommended, I want 4
Please have a look at the two plants,
I'm at the 4th node (hard to see in picture) and instead of topping, I plucked the two growth shoots (branches)
was that keerect?
aaaaand HOW do I know when I'm ready to flower?
ho boy, do they ever look like Sativas there.... what have I done? 
Mainline Sativas? hahahahahah a stick around, should be fun
they sure look lush though so far 

View attachment sativa.JPG


View attachment stop i say.JPG


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## sopappy

sMACkaddict said:


> Hey, pappy, this is pretty interesting.  I want to try this out on one plant, curious about the recovery time in soil...  The amount of leaves and branches you have to remove is insane!!  And intimidating... Haha, looking forward to watching you dabble in this, I winder if other ppl on MP have tried this...
> 
> Rosebud, I had the same thought!!  Unfortunately, fimming doesn't work with this the technique and doesn't achieve the same goals... The nug bucket tut covers that briefly...  http://www.growweedeasy.com/mainlining-nugbuckets



You don't chop chop until the 7th node. That's a pretty sturdy plant by then. 
There seemed to be little, if any, recovery time, no apparent shock at all,
they look lush, always did
I just regret waiting too many nodes, they're too leggy! 

View attachment leggy.JPG


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## Hushpuppy

LOL, yeah this stuff can be a little confusing sometimes. You need to read about topping first, but it looks like you did it right from your pictures. You will find that (if the plant is healthy) you can do nearly anything to them and they will keep on growing and will recover from it. What you did looks correct accept that you did it a little too high, and you caused them to stretch by clipping off everything below the tops. I would have tried to keep as much of the lower growth as possible until the reach the point of going to flower, and then clip the lower stuff off.

Your plants look like they have just reached sexual maturity. If you look at the branches at the tops, you will notice that they no longer grow out in pairs, but are instead beginning to stagger off from each other. At this point, you can begin to flower them.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> LOL, yeah this stuff can be a little confusing sometimes. You need to read about topping first, but it looks like you did it right from your pictures. You will find that (if the plant is healthy) you can do nearly anything to them and they will keep on growing and will recover from it. What you did looks correct accept that you did it a little too high, and you caused them to stretch by clipping off everything below the tops. I would have tried to keep as much of the lower growth as possible until the reach the point of going to flower, and then clip the lower stuff off.
> 
> Your plants look like they have just reached sexual maturity. If you look at the branches at the tops, you will notice that they no longer grow out in pairs, but are instead beginning to stagger off from each other. At this point, you can begin to flower them.



-did it a little too high-
Tutorial said wait until 7 nodes, then top at the 3rd
I don't understand where you mean here

-caused them to stretch-
Tutorial said to trim all of it but if that caused the stretch, that answers a lot of questions, LEDs have great node spacing...I'll wait next time

I saw the alternating start, funny, tutorial said I could top one more time for 8 colas, I didn't but I did pluck the two branch chutes next to the top.


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## Hushpuppy

A node is the point where the leaves come out from the stem or trunk of the plant. As the plant first grows, the leaves(and branches) will grow out in opposing pairs, one leaf(branch) on either side of the stem(trunk). If you let the plant grow until you have enough stem(trunk) sticking up past the 3rd set of leaves(3rd node) to the next set of leaves so that you can see the stem then you can cut it off at the stem, just above the 3rd node. The tutorial probably means for you to allow the plant to grow until you see the 7th node to allow the plant to strengthen and give enough space between the nodes to cut the stem above the 3rd node.

Cutting the stem above the 3rd node(or 4th, 5th, etc) is known as "topping" because you are cutting out the top of the plant. But that, as you have already learned, allows the 2 small branches at those 2 leaves to grow out and become the new continuing trunk. In order to do the topping on those 2 branches, you have to allow them to grow out far enough so that you can get to the stem above the lowest node on each of them. That may be the first leaf node or it may have to be the second leaf node. 

So you have to let them grow some to allow the branches to get a little bigger and stronger, which means by the time you can top the 2 branches, they will each have 2-3 leaf nodes developed. Then you can top them by cutting the stems just above the first leaf node, removing the upper growth again. The result will be that 2 more stems will grow out from those nodes that you left on the 2 branches. That will now give you 4 branches that will become the main stems of the plant.

Once those 4 branches have grown enough to have 2-3 leaf nodes so that the stems above the first leaf nodes is exposed enough to cut out the upper growth on all 4 branches, you can snip those out and cause each of the 4 branches to produce stem pairs again which will give you a total of 8 branches.

Depending on how aggressively and healthy your plant is growing, you may have the chance to do the topping once more to get 16 branches. As long as the very next leaf node coming out of the last set of branches is not alternating and still coming out in opposing pairs, you can continue to top them and double the stems.

I personally would stop at 4-8 branches and then place a screen over the plant and force the stems to grow out horizontally so that each branch would produce side branching and give multiple branches from each of the 4-8 main branches. Then all those little branches would each become bud branches


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## sopappy

I had to stop at 4 as the alternating was starting. I thought the cola would start there  I figured I'd get two more branches so I cut the two shoots. I'm thinking that was a mistake.
I'm going to flower this week and save your post for the next round.
I might try that screen but I'm thinking I don't have enough plant.
Take a break, HP... I hate asking when you go to that much effort but thanks!


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## Hushpuppy

Its hard to say if that was a mistake or not. Only time will tell. I am happy to help you, as I love growing MJ and working with it, and talking shop about it. If you have questions, ask away.


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> Check this out.. http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26682



I don't know why (ya, I do, I'm 61) but I can't find much here with the search. Thanks for this, got time for a drink? I was just about to crack open a bottle of Thrive... I've got lots!


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Its hard to say if that was a mistake or not. Only time will tell. I am happy to help you, as I love growing MJ and working with it, and talking shop about it. If you have questions, ask away.



I caught a reply of yours in another thread... I always thought alternating nodes were clones, and seeds were symmetrical.
Maturity when they alternate??? go figure, how convenient is that, thanks.... that happened last week, so in to flower they go.


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## sopappy

sMACkaddict said:


> Hey, pappy, this is pretty interesting.  I want to try this out on one plant, curious about the recovery time in soil...  The amount of leaves and branches you have to remove is insane!!  And intimidating... Haha, looking forward to watching you dabble in this, I winder if other ppl on MP have tried this...
> 
> Rosebud, I had the same thought!!  Unfortunately, fimming doesn't work with this the technique and doesn't achieve the same goals... The nug bucket tut covers that briefly...  http://www.growweedeasy.com/mainlining-nugbuckets



Well alrighty... watch this space for what NOT to do hahaha
Actually, it's going well, I JUST CUT OFF MORE FAN LEAVES and you're right about it feeling scary and throwing out those lush green huge fans... ho boy
I'm going for 4 colas, started flower this morning...
and I feel like I'm trying to flower twigs
(way too much wood! I think HP advice will fix this next go round)


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## sMACkaddict

hahaha, sharing our experiences, good or bad, is what this site is all about... so keep it up mang...


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## Hushpuppy

At this point, I wouldn't cut off anymore leaves or anything. Let them get going some. Let the leaves soak up some energy from the lights for another week or 2 so they can get some branching going before you flip them. How much vertical space do you have to work with? you may end up having to bend and tie the branches over so that they have enough room to flower.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> At this point, I wouldn't cut off anymore leaves or anything. Let them get going some. Let the leaves soak up some energy from the lights for another week or 2 so they can get some branching going before you flip them. How much vertical space do you have to work with? you may end up having to bend and tie the branches over so that they have enough room to flower.



I'm gonna blow this. Too late.  
I did a final trim and nute change and it's now 2nd day of flower. 
I only have about another foot, yes, I liked your screen idea but maaaay supercrop, they are holding up well and the tops are growing.
Roots, (third of the pale) where they are white, look pristine; but I do see blotches of brownish staining (from mycorrhizae hopefully)

picture shows 1 of 4 colas on one plant after the final trim 

View attachment trimmed.JPG


View attachment headroom.JPG


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## Hushpuppy

I don't think you are gonna blow this. But you can do too much to the plants. At this point, since you have started the flower phase, LEAVE THEM ALONE, DON'T CUT ANYMORE. Im not yelling just trying to be emphatic. Let them do their thing at this point. I wouldn't supercrop or anything. let them go for about a week or 2 and then once you have more growth, you can see just what you have going on, you can decide then if it will best serve you to BEND NOT SUPERCROP them at that point. Supercropping is a high stress training method that should only be done before flowering begins so to not over stress the plants. Bending is a low stress training method that the plants will tolerate without stressing. 

But at this point, you may find that even bending them will not serve you. BUT you need to wait a week at least to see how much they grow. Once you flip the lights for flowering, they will continue to grow (and stretch) for 2 weeks before they fully switch over to flowering. Even after the full switch to flowering within the plant, the bud branches will still continue to grow for another week or so. After a couple weeks, you will be able to fully see what the plant is going to do and then you can decide if it should just go as it is or have the branches spread out.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> I don't think you are gonna blow this. But you can do too much to the plants. At this point, since you have started the flower phase, LEAVE THEM ALONE, DON'T CUT ANYMORE. Im not yelling just trying to be emphatic. Let them do their thing at this point. I wouldn't supercrop or anything. let them go for about a week or 2 and then once you have more growth, you can see just what you have going on, you can decide then if it will best serve you to BEND NOT SUPERCROP them at that point. Supercropping is a high stress training method that should only be done before flowering begins so to not over stress the plants. Bending is a low stress training method that the plants will tolerate without stressing.
> 
> But at this point, you may find that even bending them will not serve you. BUT you need to wait a week at least to see how much they grow. Once you flip the lights for flowering, they will continue to grow (and stretch) for 2 weeks before they fully switch over to flowering. Even after the full switch to flowering within the plant, the bud branches will still continue to grow for another week or so. After a couple weeks, you will be able to fully see what the plant is going to do and then you can decide if it should just go as it is or have the branches spread out.



OKAY, I won't touch nuthin'
except I'll be trying to get a ramp going in the meantime but over in my grow thread, I'll pop back here with pictures in a week.

I didn't know that about supercropping, I've done that in flower when they get too close to the lamp. Dam.


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## Hushpuppy

Supercropping can be done late in flower. I have had to do that myself. While it is a stress to the plant when done anytime in flower, I think it is far less of a problem when done some in late flower as the plant has grown closer to senescence where the stress is less and has less potential to cause problems. It also depends a lot on the genetic strength of the plant. I've had plants that would stand up to anything short of a lawnmower without Herming, but I have also had plants that hermed as soon as I flipped the light schedule.

I think you will be pleasantly surprised in about 10 days when you see the amount of growth.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Supercropping can be done late in flower. I have had to do that myself. While it is a stress to the plant when done anytime in flower, I think it is far less of a problem when done some in late flower as the plant has grown closer to senescence where the stress is less and has less potential to cause problems. It also depends a lot on the genetic strength of the plant. I've had plants that would stand up to anything short of a lawnmower without Herming, but I have also had plants that hermed as soon as I flipped the light schedule.
> 
> I think you will be pleasantly surprised in about 10 days when you see the amount of growth.



Supercropping can be done in flower IF YOU CHECK WITH HUSHPUPPY FIRST! haha GREAT! I'm glad to know it's still an option, I AM ALREADY amazed at the growth but I'm the guy that shocks his plants all the time so ANY growth really shows


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## Hushpuppy

Right:clap::ccc: Now you understand :aok: :laugh: :headbang2:

The truth is that with many things involving grow methods, there isn't a one answer fits all. In some situations, a method that works great, will not work worth a crap in other situations. Go figure right :doh:


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Right:clap::ccc: Now you understand :aok: :laugh: :headbang2:
> 
> The truth is that with many things involving grow methods, there isn't a one answer fits all. In some situations, a method that works great, will not work worth a crap in other situations. Go figure right :doh:



I just had another look down there and those 8 cola sites look simply VIBRANT...okay, okay, you be the captain, I'll man the oars.

Contradictions? Indeed. That's the horse I rode in on, a myth buster thread whining about contradictions. I guess that's what makes it farming. 
I like landscaping and yard work, but I'm no farmer
yet


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## Hushpuppy

I hear ya  The bad thing here though is by the time you get it all down and get to the harvest and get to smoke your own fruits, it'll be too late for you... You will be totally addicted to "farming"


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## sopappy

This is day 10 of flower. I moved the light up, that looks like more than 24" but it's the angle.
I seem to have a ramp going but I'm topping up with pH'd water to coax it along so I'm confusing things but the ppms are moving now and they are still drinking (about qt a day ea)
But I'm thinking I'm screwed now. There's no room for upward growth if I want to maintain that 2 feet. 
Maybe not a super crop, but a bend horizontal as close to 90 as I dare for each cola ??? 

View attachment canopees.JPG


View attachment headroom.JPG


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## Hushpuppy

Absolutely... tie off each branch and remove the tie that is holding it all up in the center. Then pull each branch gently away from the center but only until it gets pretty resistant, then leave it at that point for about 3 days. Then go back in and pull them down just a little more to open them up further. After about 3x of doing that, the branches should be at about a 30-45 degree angle from horizontal. Then as the branches grow out and up, you can tie them up higher and pull them over as well. They will be softer so it will become easier to pull them over to tie so that they are nearly horizontal. At the same time, you can snip off some of the biggest leaves (but not the tiny branch growth at the nodes of the leaves) from the lower parts of each branch but leave the top 2 nodes of leaves on each branch. This will encourage secondary branch growth which will become more bud towers.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Absolutely... tie off each branch and remove the tie that is holding it all up in the center. Then pull each branch gently away from the center but only until it gets pretty resistant, then leave it at that point for about 3 days. Then go back in and pull them down just a little more to open them up further. After about 3x of doing that, the branches should be at about a 30-45 degree angle from horizontal. Then as the branches grow out and up, you can tie them up higher and pull them over as well. They will be softer so it will become easier to pull them over to tie so that they are nearly horizontal. At the same time, you can snip off some of the biggest leaves (but not the tiny branch growth at the nodes of the leaves) from the lower parts of each branch but leave the top 2 nodes of leaves on each branch. This will encourage secondary branch growth which will become more bud towers.



Phew! I figured all my mentors were busy, thanks HP. I should have mentioned that the coverage is 3 x 5 at 2 feet. My canopy is at the max area now... if I remove that tie, they'll splay outside the pattern.... am I trying to bend them back towards the inside again?
I'll get some shots.


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## sopappy

I should have asked what you meant about tieing off each branch.... I just removed the band on each of them and they splayed a bit so I tried a gentle bend and almost lost one. (looks like I'm supercropping one cola branch whether I like it or not)
I thought you meant to tie each one to the ceiling at about 24 " and start a slow bend from there. If I tie off at the ceiling, I risk the branch flopping over at the tie point. They're not as strong as I thought, what about this? 

View attachment plan.jpg


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## sopappy

I hardly slept worrying about them falling. All not too bad this am but I strung up a grid anyways.
The pictures are crummy but there is a cola branch 'taped' in each corner
and you can see where I almost lost a branch but I think it'll recover.
I probably should have waited but I did it while they were sleeping,
that's why they look listless I think, I'm not touching nuthin' until they firm up.

Oh, and I'm glad I have a res but I can't check my roots :-( 

View attachment hardtosee.JPG


View attachment messy.JPG


View attachment to your corners.JPG


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## Hushpuppy

Hmm that is a problem. They didn't look that weak in the pics. They looked a lot stiffer. Creating a string grid to support them is probably the best idea. I didn't realize that you are in hydro when I was thinking you could tie them. I was saying to tie them to the floor to bend them over but in your case that won't work. if you create a string/wire grid to support the branches, can you still access the buckets to change your water out?


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Hmm that is a problem. They didn't look that weak in the pics. They looked a lot stiffer. Creating a string grid to support them is probably the best idea. I didn't realize that you are in hydro when I was thinking you could tie them. I was saying to tie them to the floor to bend them over but in your case that won't work. if you create a string/wire grid to support the branches, can you still access the buckets to change your water out?



yup, I learn everything the hard way. 
It's the leverage with all that useless length. Testing, I bent one almost to 90 easily as it was such a long gentle bend but it almost broke after that just with the swaying loose so I figured they need the support.

4 of 8 are about 6 inches above the grid, and the plan is to fold over and tie to the grid but the branches will still get too close to the light....
I didn't allow for growth at the canopy, it's 24" from LED now
and I'll get all these branches heading up, sigh
yup, I learn everything the hard way.

2 plants, 2 buckets and a res, I just don't get to see the roots.

they drink like crazy but eat very, very little. they must be getting everything from the LED, amazing

can I cut those huge lower fans or will they help?


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## Dr. Green Fang

> I'm topping up with pH'd water to coax it along so I'm confusing things



Naw, if you're topping with water around 6.3/6.4 then you're doing exactly what you're doing as PART of the ramp  Topping off with fresh water every single day (I do it two times a day) is *essential* to hydro, and a proper hydro ramp! 

Also, once those plants start eating you'll surely notice, hah. Another thing to note, and this isn't proper but.. maybe it'll put your mind at ease. I can't see my roots in some of my systems, and honestly, after a root zone is established you don't really "need" to see them. I know, you're pyth scared lol!! Funny, I have never gotten that issue... 



> can I cut those huge lower fans or will they help?



Personally, I'd leave everything alone for now. Normally I'd say "yes, remove a couple of those lowers" and surely it'd be fine.. but not being there, and noticing some super cropping heading into flower, I would say hold off on removal. You did a great job prepping it along. :aok:


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## Hushpuppy

I agree with everything DGF said. Supercropping them just accidentally may be your only choice at this point but you will have to be extra careful to not break any. It will stress them some but that doesn't automatically mean that they will herm.

I quit looking at the roots of my plants when I set them in the flower space because they set in the totes under the scrog. So I don't see them for 9-11wks. If you make sure to do everything right on the outside, then they will be fine on the inside.


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## sopappy

Much obliged, gents.
They're not doing what I expected. I thought this manifold thing would be perfect for LEDs as I was finding the inter node spacing much closer than I'd ever gotten before.
Surprise, surprise, huge distance between nodes and I'm at my max height already.
If I lay down (horizontal) my 8 cola branches will they form 8 colas 
or will I get dozens of branches starting up to the light.

Anyways, I'm lowering that grid and will try and lay them down, only one broke on me and I wasn't trying to supercrop, no prep, I think they'll bend okay, the gangly freaks


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Naw, if you're topping with water around 6.3/6.4 then you're doing exactly what you're doing as PART of the ramp  Topping off with fresh water every single day (I do it two times a day) is *essential* to hydro, and a proper hydro ramp!
> 
> snipped :aok:



greetings Doc,
why 6.3 / 6.4 ? are you coaxing it up from 5.6 ?
my ramp went backwards, I've changed nutes 
so starting at 5.6 this time
mine don't really eat, they drink about 2qts a day though
do we need nutes with LEDs?
(I'm half serious about that, why am I adding nutes if the ppm doesn't change?)


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> I agree with everything DGF said. Supercropping them just accidentally may be your only choice at this point but you will have to be extra careful to not break any. It will stress them some but that doesn't automatically mean that they will herm.
> 
> I quit looking at the roots of my plants when I set them in the flower space because they set in the totes under the scrog. So I don't see them for 9-11wks. If you make sure to do everything right on the outside, then they will be fine on the inside.



Ho boy, did you ever rattle me with 'herm', yes, a huge concern now
and I'm lowering the grid and picking on them again tonight!
(maybe they'll like the new nutes and won't notice the chiropractory)


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## Kraven

HP I have super cropped all the way up to three weeks into bloom w/o significant weight loss. The problem is his level of finesse, we could easily pull it off but asking him to make that kind of move is risky at best. imho just trying to get the mains supported now should be his main concern. Not meaning to butt in, just giving my angle.


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## sopappy

Kraven said:


> HP I have super cropped all the way up to three weeks into bloom w/o significant weight loss. The problem is his level of finesse, we could easily pull it off but asking him to make that kind of move is risky at best. imho just trying to get the mains supported now should be his main concern. Not meaning to butt in, just giving my angle.



Hi Kraven. butt in anytime!
Supported and bent over. And yes, finese is a concern but I don't have any choice now. I broke another one :-( but the other 6 are bent almost 90 okay.
I reset the res, they didn't drink a bit overnight

Once those two elbows stiffen up, I'll try and arrange them better,
pretty ugly in there right now
but some headroom
shoot, sorry about that sideways one, 

View attachment 100_1068.JPG


View attachment 100_1069.JPG


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## yarddog

I don't think he meant to make the whole plant 90 degrees.  Haha


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## Hushpuppy

Kraven said:


> HP I have super cropped all the way up to three weeks into bloom w/o significant weight loss. The problem is his level of finesse, we could easily pull it off but asking him to make that kind of move is risky at best. imho just trying to get the mains supported now should be his main concern. Not meaning to butt in, just giving my angle.


You are correct Kraven, and this is opinion based forum so no problem here with butt-ins  I am always open to new information. Yeah, I am not afraid to do anything with mine but I am very hesitant to tell someone else to do anything that can be stressful to their plants, especially if I don't know their level of experience. I was hoping that they would take kindly to gentle bending but it looks like he may be better to do the SC method and hope for the best. I think most decent genetics will allow for SC throughout the flower phase without issues but I have seen some that had issues(but no guarantee that was due to SC so there we are):doh:

Pappy, don't worry about the hermies. That is unlikely but we try to not encourage them if we can help it. I don't use LED but it is my understanding that the plants use way less nutrients when grown under LED, so that could easily account for the lack of nute use by the plants. However, if you are using synthetic nutrients like Flora or Jungle Juice, these will leave behind a certain amount of salts that will fool you as to how much nutrients the plants are using. 

I use JJ and I never see my PPMs go down even though I know they are using the nutes. In fact, you can often see the ppm go up if the plants are drinking more than they are eating because the ratio of nutes to water goes up as more water is taken out.

To your question about bending the branches over; you will get more branching that will come off those main branches that have been bent over as that is their nature. That is why I use a screen. I can tuck those branches under the screen and spread them out to get many colas. However, since you have already started flowering, you shouldn't get a lot of extra branching as the plants are in the process of switching over.


----------



## sopappy

Great stuff, HP, 

What's SC ?   Sea of Colas ? 

Never hesitate in this thread. I'll never dump on anybody here for what goes wrong in my grows. I'm melding advice from several sources so I wouldn't know who to blame hahaha 
Besides, I've been crashing all over the place for 3 or 4  years now but I still somehow end up with some pot.

I'm using GH FloraNova one-part for Bloom 4-8-7
and the minimum dose 1ml/2L

I swear they are just eating LED and drinking.
The ppms never move, well they did one short ramp once.
It's tricky that ratio thing (especially when yer stoned(-:
nutes to water, got it.

Does "switching over" mean they start making the colas?
I don't want to touch them for another 2 days but I'm wrong trying to lay down those colas, aren't I? 
I should just let them grow straigt up now, there's room now, 
Is there a visual cue when they "switch over"?


----------



## sopappy

yarddog said:


> I don't think he meant to make the whole plant 90 degrees.  Haha



What else could I do? no more head room, the internode length wasn't in my plan. I still don't get that, it's a LED.
the 90 was easy, they are so long, it was a pretty gentle bend and she almost stayed there which should have been my warning :-(
I didn't realize how much it weakened the stem and I had done no squishy squishy, I was sure it was going to break away as I was trying to hold her up and grab some tape from too far away.

this plant cause me a lot of stress but she giveth and she taketh away


----------



## sopappy

almost 3 weeks in to flower, I'm to start my seeds next week... 
I want to try the manifold again BUT
Look at this mess
How the heck did that happen? why did I get such huge gaps between the nodes?


----------



## Hushpuppy

Alright, SC is supercropping, which is the "squishy squishy" that you said above. If they seem to stiff and will break too easy upon bending then supercropping should allow you to bend them without breaking.

"Switching over" or "flipping" is about the plants changing from veg phase to flower phase. Flipping is what we do when we change the light cycle from 24hrs on to 12/12. Switching over is what the plants do when they change their internal chemistry from the veg function to the flower function. You can tell when they have switched over or when they are almost switched over because the tops of any stems will start producing bunches of white hairs rather than green shoots. You may see shoots and hairs together initially but then the further on it gets, the more white hairs you will see at every junction.

I think laying the branches over was the right thing to do in your situation. The reason you have such "stretching" between the nodes is because you did the mainlining. From what I can tell, mainlining will make them stretch more because you not only cut off the leaves, you cut off the little branch growth at the node so the stem will stay bare. So all of the growth hormone is focused at the top of the branches. Had you cut off the leaves and left the little side branches that were developing at each node, you would have nice bushes now.


----------



## Hushpuppy

Here is a pic of my 2 clones. The one on the right is a Blue dream that rooted faster than the Sweet tooth on the left. It also has more Sativa trait to it. But 2 weeks ago it looked like the one on the left because I cut away all of the side leaves but left the branch growth. This is a defoliation trick combined with FIM to make the plant more bushy. I intend to set it into my flower room when I harvest the others and then do a scrog over it. I will then make those branches grow and spread out across the underside of the screen until it is 2/3 filled, then I will flip it to flower and all of the little tertiary branches that will form off of the present branches will become the bud colas.  

View attachment BDST 2nd gen1019.jpg


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Here is a pic of my 2 clones. The one on the right is a Blue dream that rooted faster than the Sweet tooth on the left. It also has more Sativa trait to it. But 2 weeks ago it looked like the one on the left because I cut away all of the side leaves but left the branch growth. This is a defoliation trick combined with FIM to make the plant more bushy. I intend to set it into my flower room when I harvest the others and then do a scrog over it. I will then make those branches grow and spread out across the underside of the screen until it is 2/3 filled, then I will flip it to flower and all of the little tertiary branches that will form off of the present branches will become the bud colas.



lordy, I have a week or so to make up my mind how to proceed with the next batch. I don't think I want bushy, I know I don't think I can do the scrog thing. I'll post pictures and you'll see what I mean. 

View attachment 100_1074.JPG


View attachment 100_1075.JPG


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Alright, SC is supercropping,
> good stuff snipped--
> the reason you have such "stretching" between the nodes is because you did the mainlining. From what I can tell, mainlining will make them stretch more because you not only cut off the leaves, you cut off the little branch growth at the node so the stem will stay bare. So all of the growth hormone is focused at the top of the branches. Had you cut off the leaves and left the little side branches that were developing at each node, you would have nice bushes now.



SC is supercropping, jezus, I had to ask?
yabut yabut yabut, that's not what the tutorial said to do, their plants didn't stretch like that


----------



## yarddog

Sopappy, I was being sarcastic. In reference to one of your pictures in the post I quoted was sideways.   
Sorry, I should have been clear.  You are already getting hammered pretty good with the grow at the moment.  Didn't want you to think I was kicking a man when he's down.


----------



## sopappy

yarddog said:


> Sopappy, I was being sarcastic. In reference to one of your pictures in the post I quoted was sideways.
> Sorry, I should have been clear.  You are already getting hammered pretty good with the grow at the moment.  Didn't want you to think I was kicking a man when he's down.



I totally missed that.
Yup, I feel like that guy that rides the bomb at the end of dr strangelove,
I roll with the punches, but I must admit, I'm always expelling CO2 in there
vehemently


----------



## Hushpuppy

Pappy I hope you don't think I am beating up on you, I'm not trying to do that. I'm just trying to help you understand whats happening as best as I can tell. Don't get frustrated, you will have success here with what you have going. You will get some nice smoke out of this.

The problem here is that there are so many different methods for doing the single thing that we all want, which is to maximize the yield. When you are new to growing, or new to the latest ways of growing, it is very easy to get confused about what does what and for what reason. 

Methods develop for reasons of personal and individual circumstances, and they develop to suit certain strains of plants because there are various growth traits in MJ and one method that works fantastically for one strain in a certain environment, may be a disaster for a different strain in the same environment. Or it may give mediocre results for the same strain in a different environment. There are many variables that have to be worked out. 

That is why I tell people (who are new to today's growing) to pick one method and one or two strains and then try to grow them a couple times before changing methods and/or changing nutrients. If you change too much at one time then what works can quickly get lost in what doesn't and you will continuously chase your tail.

So Pappy, don't lose hope. If you don't have more that 6' of vertical space then You shouldn't do mainlining. You can do something similar as there are variations to every method. You could possibly do a form of mainlining but just keep it smaller on the next run.


----------



## Hushpuppy

Looking at your latest pics, they look like they are doing well. You may find that they will finish far better than you expect, and you may want to stick with this method that is evolving into something that works for you. You will find if you grow long enough, no matter what methods you use, you will modify them to best serve what works for you.


----------



## sopappy

Not at all, HP but Kraven took quite the swipe I thought hahaha
Really, it was cheap to get in, nothing upsets me here, just some plants 

I didn't pay any attention to strains, to me, it's like wine, I'll drink red or white. But growing too, I see what you mean now. I think these two are gangly like that because they are sativa or dominant. Poor choice for this.

It all started with tiring of getting rid of the old dirt, I tried coco but dirty or bad batch of seeds, had a horrible go of that, came here for help and saw the hydroton in buckets and was sold. With the close nodes with LEDs, and only two buckets, manifold seemed ideal.

I'd like to try it again but haven't the faintest idea how I could keep it smaller. I'll be starting seeds end of 3rd week, gotta make up my mind.


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Looking at your latest pics, they look like they are doing well. You may find that they will finish far better than you expect, and you may want to stick with this method that is evolving into something that works for you. You will find if you grow long enough, no matter what methods you use, you will modify them to best serve what works for you.




They want you to wait 6 nodes, top at the 3rd, (for thick stems I gather)
Then you continue like that, waiting 3 nodes each time
I'm topping at the 1st node each time next go

Well, lots of healthy looking green in there, can't be bad,
I hate the look of the canopy though, it'll be hard to resist arranging them all the time, all that wasted light.

I've been buying nothing but fem seeds lately and got sloppy. Look how far this bastard got before I caught him. If that happens in one of those buckets, it'll really hurt. 

View attachment bouy.jpg


----------



## sopappy

I didn't post this picture because the focus ws so bad.
I wish I had, one of  you might have caught it.
So, smack me upside the head, how did I miss this?
You're right HP, going in there stoned IS a risk.

:fid:
I had those branches intertwined for pete's sake,
I didn't see any open but too, too close, I am sick to my stomach, 
she's a nice plant and 6 more in dirt in same room 
:hairpull:

On the brightside, I have a nice 2 x 4 ampitheatre canopy that fits nicely under that LED and lots of headroom.

I also left the drip ring on the floor overnight and leaked all night. So a reset, she was drinking and eating too,
Hope she's not too upset about losing her boyfriend (sob)
:hitchair: 

View attachment missed it.JPG


View attachment tombstone.JPG


View attachment bright side.JPG


----------



## Hushpuppy

I am not seeing what you are seeing. I assume you are saying the top picture(closeup) is a male? I don't see any balls but it is rather blurry. However, if you had balls developing then you have to do what you have to do.


----------



## sopappy

Crummy picture, but yup, male. It's amazing how you (meaning me) try to talk yourself out of it being a male when you're staring at it in slack-jawed disbelief. 

I got a look at the roots. I think they are healthy as all get out. No slime, they smell great, I don't like the staining but I am quite sure that it is not pythium, riiiiiiiiight?
ooop.... trouble uploading pictures tonight, later 

View attachment footballs.JPG


View attachment roots.JPG


----------



## Hushpuppy

Oh yeah I see the balls now :doh:  Yeah that is just some staining of the roots. That is normal with hydro and synthetic nutrients. Mine are quite healthy and the roots are mostly brown stained.


----------



## Gooch

i am checking mine every night i dont see any signs yet but im gonna stay vigilant, good grab


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Oh yeah I see the balls now :doh:  Yeah that is just some staining of the roots. That is normal with hydro and synthetic nutrients. Mine are quite healthy and the roots are mostly brown stained.



:farm:
weehoo, look at me, I'm a farmer!


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> i am checking mine every night i dont see any signs yet but im gonna stay vigilant, good grab



I dunno Gooch, I was waaaaaay late catching them! This ain't over.
It happens FAST! Check every night, every morning, fem seeds or not!
I have 6 in soil, 1 in hydro and they've all been exposed to this bugger.
I caught them waaaaay too late because I wasn't checking !!!!!
I had fem seeds and slacked off until one of them "looked funny"
by then, it's too late
My rule of thumb now is every time I'm in the flower room until I see buds.
:headbang:


----------



## Gooch

well I only have 1 seeded plant in there the rest are clones, but i suppose even clones exposed to certain stresses can flip


----------



## Hushpuppy

You usually have about a week to 10 days from the first growth of the male pollen sac before it is mature enough to open and release pollen. So while you do need to be vigilant, you don't have to sweat it.

SoPappy; had any of those balls opened and had yellow bananas inside when you found it? if not then you shouldn't get any seeds.


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## Gooch

just a note, if you do end up with seeds on the other plants make sure to wash the walls and lights and everything else in the room because that pollen gets in everything from what i understand, but hopefully you grabbed em early enough where no pollen was ejaculated onto your fragile virgins


----------



## sopappy

That re-assuring, HP. I was just looking at her today and she looks tough. :-(
I see hairs but I got my magnifier sitting there.
I stripped down all the panda paper last time, Gooch, your idea is better.

update:  
original reset was 5.7 250
it was at 6.3 last night after only a couple days, only one bucket so I did a change
5.7 250 again, had some left
the pH shot up to 6.3 in 16 hours,
I been told that means I need more nutes so I doubled it
5.7 500
next morning 6.2 470
Down about a quart so I took a quart of pH downed water and tossed it in to the bucket.
5.7 470
still not enough nutes?
I read rapid pH swings are not good

anybody else having trouble uploading pictures or is it me?


----------



## Hushpuppy

Yeah I can't get pics to load either. I think you are a little low on the nutrients unless those are Satori. For most hybrids, I run around 700-900ppm during the fullness of veg and then 1100-1400 during flower. The pH stays stable longer and drifts slower at those levels.


----------



## Gooch

:yeahthat:


----------



## sopappy

5.7 ph 370 ppm, eating and drinking, I'm having to Ph down every top up

ah, here we go... almost a month old here, seems sluggish to me, 
you're right HP, nutes are low, she gets max next change 

View attachment 45 weeks.JPG


----------



## Hushpuppy

Try to bump it up to about 700-800 for a week, then 900-1000 for a week and if you don't have any issues, bump it to 1100-1200. If you see the tips of the leaves begin to burn then back off of the last numbers by about 20% and stay at that. Then you will see them explode with growth


----------



## sopappy

max is 3 weeks away? that's going to be difficult but okay
8, 10, 12, I'll go mark my calendar

I have 6 other plants in dirt, potting soil, same age, same strain, not neglected but not pampered either, their buds look as good and as big... hydro doesn't seem worth the fuss to me right now.
But stuff is growing, I like waking up to that 
thanks for keeping an eye out, HP


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Try to bump it up to about 700-800 for a week, then 900-1000 for a week and if you don't have any issues, bump it to 1100-1200. If you see the tips of the leaves begin to burn then back off of the last numbers by about 20% and stay at that. Then you will see them explode with growth



I wonder if I could accelerate this? 
It's just the one plant, not much nute $. If things happen fast in hydro, I'll do 800 today, check tips tomorrow, if okay, reset to 1000, check tips next day, if ok, reset to 1200
or is it not THAT fast?


----------



## Gooch

well you want to give it a chance to adjust so at least wait a few days, typically you would only replace the water once a week so start now with the 8 next week bump it up next bump it up and your sailing, if you try and d it too fast then you run the risk of not being able to see when it has actually had enough


----------



## Gooch

some of the benefits to hydro is some of the set it and forget and watch it grow, but that is with ebb and flow, dwc is more hands on like dirt, 
additional bennies of hydro
control of the nutes/temp/ph at the root system


----------



## Gooch

sopappy said:


> I have 6 other plants in dirt, potting soil, same age, same strain, not neglected but not pampered either, their buds look as good and as big... hydro doesn't seem worth the fuss to me right now.
> HP


so basically your dirt plants with im assuming good soil, are doing as good as the hydro that is neglected/underfed? so extrapolate that to proper feeding should see better results in hydro ;-) :48:


----------



## Hushpuppy

Yep, what Gooch said.


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> well you want to give it a chance to adjust so at least wait a few days, typically you would only replace the water once a week so start now with the 8 next week bump it up next bump it up and your sailing, if you try and d it too fast then you run the risk of not being able to see when it has actually had enough



I'm assuming results are FASTER than that, maybe I'm wrong.
If I overfed and the tips were going to show it, would I see it within 24 hours using DWC?


----------



## Gooch

i dont know if you will see it instantly because its processing the nutes from days before as those nutes enter the pipeline and transition up the network int the plant, so it takes a couple days for that to happen 2 maybe 3, and the rebound is around the same 2 or 3 at the least


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> so basically your dirt plants with im assuming good soil, are doing as good as the hydro that is neglected/underfed? so extrapolate that to proper feeding should see better results in hydro ;-) :48:



hahahahaha, point taken. Yup, I'm starving her, that's why I want to get that ppm number up to 1200 NOW but you guys won't let me.


----------



## Gooch

lol well you cannot take a starving person and sit them infront of a 4 course meal and expect them not to puke for days


----------



## Kraven

pappy when i run hydro, depending on the strain in veg I'm at around an EC of 2.0 and as i ramp up in flower i get to around an EC of 2.8 thats around week 4-5 and i hold that till i taper down around week seven to an EC of 1.5 then lastly to just water in weeks 8-9 as I let the plants use the last little bit of themselves up. Here is an EC conversion table, dunno if your TDS meter is a .5 or .7 thats why i stick to EC when doing hydro.


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> lol well you cannot take a starving person and sit them infront of a 4 course meal and expect them not to puke for days



This is just NOT sinking in, hahahaha
but I do appreciate the effort
:hitchair:
don't give up on me, something will stick sooner or later


----------



## sopappy

Kraven said:


> pappy when i run hydro, depending on the strain in veg I'm at around an EC of 2.0 and as i ramp up in flower i get to around an EC of 2.8 thats around week 4-5 and i hold that till i taper down around week seven to an EC of 1.5 then lastly to just water in weeks 8-9 as I let the plants use the last little bit of themselves up. Here is an EC conversion table, dunno if your TDS meter is a .5 or .7 thats why i stick to EC when doing hydro.



Milwaukee MW 802 pH/EC/TDS

haha I just noticed the EC/TDS ms/cm button..... I haven't been using it
:hitchair:
guess I'd best read up on that, thanks K-man!


----------



## Hushpuppy

Now you nee3d to pay attention to the settings because that pen gives you the choice to measure in PPM(TDS) or in EC. The ms/cm button shouldn't come into use when measuring in TDS mode.


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Now you nee3d to pay attention to the settings because that pen gives you the choice to measure in PPM(TDS) or in EC. The ms/cm button shouldn't come into use when measuring in TDS mode.



I have never used that button. I just stick the probe in the res and press pH  and ppm alternately until it settles. I then have to put that cap on the probe and make it over to my  clipboard to record the readings. I tried EC tonight. That third button  really throws me, short term memory and all, it's hard to do it in one step.

Kraven is so far out of my league, it humours me that he still pops by so I havta try eh? but in the end, it's  just another column on my sheet. 
It's all Greek to me.
I jest, it's sinking in, I still think most of it is friggen' voodoo though 

View attachment metre.JPG


----------



## sopappy

IT'S TWINS !!!
This feminizing stuff is not natural I tells ya. I had 5 Dark angel seeds and this is ONE of them. Rapid rooter plug sitting in hydroton.
The rest are up too. I hate the title of this thread now and I can't change it so I'm starting a new thread (even though it's still mainlining) 

View attachment twins.jpg


----------



## sopappy

Kraven said:


> pappy when i run hydro, depending on the strain in veg I'm at around an EC of 2.0 and as i ramp up in flower i get to around an EC of 2.8 thats around week 4-5 and i hold that till i taper down around week seven to an EC of 1.5 then lastly to just water in weeks 8-9 as I let the plants use the last little bit of themselves up. Here is an EC conversion table, dunno if your TDS meter is a .5 or .7 thats why i stick to EC when doing hydro.



That figures, my EC reads 2.8 and my ppms are 220, I must have calibrated it wrong.

I calibrated pH 7 then ph 4 then ph 7 then stuck the probe in the envelope with a temp probe, calibrated the EC/TDS. 
The readings are still off    2.8 which is at least 1400ppm and I read 170 ppm
:baby:


----------



## Hushpuppy

Yeah it sounds like something isn't calibrated right. I don't like the Milwaukee probes. They have always been a PITA for me. I like the Bluelab pens. I have a pH pen and a TDS pen, and I have NO trouble with them.

That is very interesting that you got twins from one seed. Unusual but not impossible.


----------



## sopappy

I can't afford a new metre(s) unless I get results like yours, 4+ oz indeed, wow.
I'll have to assume my pH is right, it measures the test liquids okay and numbers make sense with city water. 
I did a reset with the rapid growing amount numbers on the bottle and ph down to 5.8 and a whopping 1400 ppm ( so the metre sez) 
I diluted to 1150 and pH is now 6.1,  
strangely, the EC reading seems reasonable now, it reads 1.7

I know that's high and a big jump. I'm struggling with hitting the targets.
I'll do another change at 6.3 or if the tips show.


----------



## Gooch

what is the process to calibrate the ec/ppm i have a bluelabs multi looks similar to yours but mine only requires calibration for ph


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> what is the process to calibrate the ec/ppm i have a bluelabs multi looks similar to yours but mine only requires calibration for ph



I dip the probe and a temp probe in an envelope of 'conductivity solution'. There's a chart with temps and readings on the envelope. You adjust the right knob. I pry it off (before removing probe) and cover the holes with tape. I kept thinking I was bumping the knobs in use.

HA! another variable, my temp probe could be off. I just adjusted them all relative to each other, how the hell do I know what the actual temperature is, damn hvac, it's as voodooey as growing.


----------



## Gooch

weird i have 2 probes 1 is ppm/ec and temp and the other is external ph probe i plug into a port, and that is the only thing requiring calibration. sucks when you have to figure **** out wish i could lend a hand what is the make and model of your system?


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> weird i have 2 probes 1 is ppm/ec and temp and the other is external ph probe i plug into a port, and that is the only thing requiring calibration. sucks when you have to figure **** out wish i could lend a hand what is the make and model of your system?



Milwaukee MW 802 pH/EC/TDS
I just read you can use white vinegar to rinse probe between readings
I store mine in distilled.
EC readings made sense today, maybe I have mini-flashbacks or something when I'm looking at that readout.

I stuffed their faces last night and they ate, tips look fine...
so far

what is min water temp for DWC, mine dips to 60 overnight.  okay ?


----------



## Gooch

woah definitely not you dont want it falling below 68 imho i keep mine at 70 using a res heater but DWC is each bucket, you can try wrapping all your buckets with 6mil plastic to create an airzone, and then get a cheap ceramic heater from walmart and blow the heat into the plastic and it will heat all your buckets, i use one when lights are out, outside my tent i keep it 75, and inside my tent stays 70-73


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> woah definitely not you dont want it falling below 68 imho i keep mine at 70 using a res heater but DWC is each bucket, you can try wrapping all your buckets with 6mil plastic to create an airzone, and then get a cheap ceramic heater from walmart and blow the heat into the plastic and it will heat all your buckets, i use one when lights are out, outside my tent i keep it 75, and inside my tent stays 70-73



She's basking in a balmy 76 in there, 
while the room dips to 70, it's just her roots dip that dip to 60
I don't want to heat that water dammit
but I can't find any minimums, 68 ! c'mon... 65 ?
heat to 70 ? NEVER, I've had pythium


----------



## Hushpuppy

You are OK as long as it doesn't go under 60f. Ideal temp is between 65-73 with 75 being an absolute high temp border. But if it falls not far below 60f for only a few hrs, it will slow the function of the plants some but not be harmful. If you can get it to 65f you will be ok if the room air temp is above 73f.

The best think I have found to keep your pH pen in is the storage solution for the Bluelab pens. It should be universal for use with other pens since the pH probe is the same on all of them. I put this solution to water at about 1:3 and fill a small glass measure cup and leave my pen in that when not in use. It has something in it that helps the probe stay calibrated far longer than anything else I have found. If you cant get that then if you have pH4.0 adjuster, you can pour some of that in a cup with water at 1:2 and it will work well. Just some info for you


----------



## WeedHopper

That is weird,,never seen a double headed plant like that. Very cool. No topping for you,,its already done. I wonder if that plant put out seeds if they would do the same.
You sure ya didnt drop two seeds by mistake,cause I cant tell if both heads are coming from the same stalk?


----------



## sopappy

WeedHopper said:


> That is weird,,never seen a double headed plant like that. Very cool. No topping for you,,its already done. I wonder if that plant put out seeds if they would do the same.
> You sure ya didnt drop two seeds by mistake,cause I cant tell if both heads are coming from the same stalk?



I was thinking the same thing. And I'm always stoned there. I have my routine though and I only had 5 seeds, 5 rooters, tweezers, one at a time and the pattern is measure, hydroton pellet(s), seed, pellet(s).
I should be able to find two seed shells too. I'll take a closer look tonight.


----------



## Kraven

Hey pappy, was popping to see how things were coming along....notice HP is here and he has a vast amount of knowledge. If anyone can help get you on track it will be him. Thanks HP, Pappy has the drive and the desire, he just has a few hiccups here and there, hopefully you can help get him running smoothly.


----------



## Rosebud

I got one of those twins from a fem papaya seed. I separated the two successfully but they didn't do that well. The smaller twin out grew the taller one by a lot. Feminized seed was all i could find for papaya.

Is your title ok now  sopappy?


----------



## WeedHopper

Wow,,,Frankenstein Weed

Or is this like the movie Multiplicity. Lol


----------



## sopappy

I tried looking down the hole with a magnifier and flashlight but I couldn't see anything definitive. I took a shot of the two stalks in the hole but it doesn't really prove anything. 
Interesting how they twist like that... I wonder if two separate seeds would get along like that.
I sure hope they both survive!! I'd like to see that twist when they're big but will they strangle each other?

that's a pretty sexy shot, they both have nice knees 

View attachment 101_0003.KDC.jpg


View attachment 101_0008.KDC.jpg


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Yeah it sounds like something isn't calibrated right. I don't like the Milwaukee probes. They have always been a PITA for me. I like the Bluelab pens. I have a pH pen and a TDS pen, and I have NO trouble with them.
> 
> That is very interesting that you got twins from one seed. Unusual but not impossible.



I may be looking at new metres after all. I left the cap off my probe at least half a day.

I just don't think I put two seeds down there..... they're too expensive and temperamental, I'm over careful with them. I use tweezers fer pete's sake
....but I could have hahaha, time will tell I guess


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## sopappy

oh man, it just gets worse, I'm not supposed to be in this section... I thought this was for noob grow journals, so sorry... I will delete soon.
ya hit 60 and this stuff just starts to happen


----------



## Gooch

you dont have to delete it, if its not in the right place they will move it for you


----------



## Kraven

Pappy you can stick a small pump in the res and point it up, use it to flume with, and the heat from the pump should keep the water close to 65 at night,. it will take a little bit of work to figure out the right schedule, or you can just get a cheap fish tank heater and be done with it imho.


----------



## Hushpuppy

Pappy You need to get them babies under some stronger light. They are stretching. I don't know that I would allow 2 of them to grow together like that. MJ plants tend to fight each other for light (which might be why they are stretching). But this is what happens when you enjoy a bowl before doing your gardening.

The small pump is a good idea as it keeps the solution in your system continuously mixed, which helps prevent accidental precipitation of the nutrients out of the solution. Its hard to say though how much it will raise the temps.


----------



## Gooch

I would try untwisting them and keep them separated so they dont compete


----------



## WeedHopper

They are to close together to not compete,,,unless it is only one seed,,which I doubt very seriously.


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## Gooch

its not one seed? if its 2 seeds then they should be able to be separated, one would imagine. I thought it was one seed i figured keep the tops away from each other so they both get light, if one is taller its shading the smaller


----------



## Hushpuppy

If they are continuously manipulated to pull them away from each other, and allowed to grow in a larger container to allow enough room for both root balls to develop enough to keep each plant healthy, then they could be grown to completion.


----------



## tcbud

Please don't delete this thread. Your gonna get me through winter not growing. And on top of that I am learning loads right here.

That double trouble seedling is a wonder.


----------



## sopappy

Kraven said:


> Pappy you can stick a small pump in the res and point it up, use it to flume with, and the heat from the pump should keep the water close to 65 at night,. it will take a little bit of work to figure out the right schedule, or you can just get a cheap fish tank heater and be done with it imho.



ha!, THAT is exactly what I did, pulled the coils and dropped the pump in to the water. Still gets too cool though, maybe 60 for a few hours.
I have one of those aquarium heaters, I just don't wanna


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Pappy You need to get them babies under some stronger light. They are stretching. I don't know that I would allow 2 of them to grow together like that. MJ plants tend to fight each other for light (which might be why they are stretching). But this is what happens when you enjoy a bowl before doing your gardening.
> 
> The small pump is a good idea as it keeps the solution in your system continuously mixed, which helps prevent accidental precipitation of the nutrients out of the solution. Its hard to say though how much it will raise the temps.



I thought so too, 24hr LED at propagate distance, I'll lower it to veg, 
always with the damn stretching but I just drop them deeper into the bucket. Or I can stick them under T5s

pump 24hr feeds a drip on each bucket, tap at the end of the feeder hose cracked open sprays in to res.


----------



## sopappy

WeedHopper said:


> They are to close together to not compete,,,unless it is only one seed,,which I doubt very seriously.



O ye, of little faith!


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> its not one seed? if its 2 seeds then they should be able to be separated, one would imagine. I thought it was one seed i figured keep the tops away from each other so they both get light, if one is taller its shading the smaller



I think it's one seed but I like my pot.
Contrary to HP's sage advise, I'm rarely straight in there.
I have a routine though and visual cues for everything.
I start with 10 seeds hoping for 5 successful plants in the buckets. 
If disasters, I have 5 back-ups.
I do 5 rooters, 5 seeds at a time and am fussy, my routine is up there somewhere. 
Unless I got interupted...but where did the 6th seed come from,
a only had 5 dark angel


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> If they are continuously manipulated to pull them away from each other, and allowed to grow in a larger container to allow enough room for both root balls to develop enough to keep each plant healthy, then they could be grown to completion.



I'm not touching them, HP
I can afford to lose them and it will just be too fascinating not to watch how nature handles this. But I will start LST at 5 nodes if they make it.
:watchplant:


----------



## sopappy

tcbud said:


> Please don't delete this thread. Your gonna get me through winter not growing. And on top of that I am learning loads right here.
> 
> That double trouble seedling is a wonder.



Feminized seeds. They mate two females, (which isn't such a terrible thing really) but they do it by sprinkling colloidal silver on their privates which causes balls to grow somehow! <shudder>
Next time I get a male, I'm cooking up some colloidal silver and painting his balls.


----------



## Hushpuppy

You can start Lst on them now if you want. They are very resilient during veg. As long as the stems are soft, you can do most anything to them as long as the skin isn't torn, and they will heal and be stronger. That is why a lot of people put fans on their very young plants. The constant blowing around makes the stems sturdier.


----------



## Hushpuppy

Now here is how a mainline converted into scrog should almost look. Ideally, it should've been set down further so that more of the branches were splayed out and then flipped immediately. However, on this one the guy couldn't bend the branches for tucking or doing SC as the plant was too woody stemmed. 

View attachment mainline into scrog.jpg


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> You can start Lst on them now if you want. They are very resilient during veg. As long as the stems are soft, you can do most anything to them as long as the skin isn't torn, and they will heal and be stronger. That is why a lot of people put fans on their very young plants. The constant blowing around makes the stems sturdier.



Omigawd, now? Here I am afraid I'll walk in there and they'll have fallen over, I wouldn't dare train them,  damn that stretch. Some days I miss my mH and HPS days.  <<<< see that?, potheads do that a lot, use the same word twice in the same sentence <<<< did you see what I did there?

I don't like the constant blowing, I prefer your fan blowing up idea, that's all I use is that little PC one you see there. Even that's on a timer. The whole canopy just gentle wiggles everywhere. 
The only other exercise my stems get is me smacking them around a bit.


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Now here is how a mainline converted into scrog should almost look. Ideally, it should've been set down further so that more of the branches were splayed out and then flipped immediately. However, on this one the guy couldn't bend the branches for tucking or doing SC as the plant was too woody stemmed.



So a scrog is a failed manifold? Seems long internode lengths spoil everything.
Mine actually doesn't look all that bad now, it looks like extra colas now too but boy they sure look spares, week 6 begins tomorrow.

another stoner thing: I meant to say 'sparse' up there, not 'spares'
or is that some other neurological disorder?
(it's all downhill after 60) 

View attachment end of 5.jpg


----------



## sopappy

tcbud said:


> Please don't delete this thread. Your gonna get me through winter not growing. And on top of that I am learning loads right here.
> 
> That double trouble seedling is a wonder.



Oh, so we both won't be growing this winter? :laugh:
I find winters easier than summers, you must be outdoor.

I haven't mastered this manifold thing by any means so I guess it's okay here. Trouble is, I haven't mastered the ramp thing either and I discuss it here and now I have this two-headed experiment... anything goes in a grow thread, me bad boy here

hey Rosebud, can you move this thread to the grow section?


----------



## Hushpuppy

I would say that your plant looks like it is doing quite well at the moment. MJ can be quite forgiving of mistakes and can recover to give you much better than expected results.

I wouldn't say that scrog is a failed manifold. Its more that some of the same techniques apply in getting the plant to grow to a certain point and then spread the canopy out horizontally. If/when people grow under LED fixtures, the shallow, horizontally spread canopy is what works best because of the nature of LED light. But my intension of using scrog is to get many more top colas off a more mature plant. If you(me, or anyone) is successful in doing a proper scrog, then the plant canopy stays at one level so there is better light exposure and absorption. This also allows the bud colas to grow up and away from the canopy so that they can ripen better in the light. 

I feel ya on the old age thing. I am 51 but because of the 8 surgeries that I have had over the past 15 years, I feel many years older. Some mornings I get up and can barely move because of the ache I suffer. Thus the reason that I grow medical MJ.


----------



## sopappy

It's an amazing plant alright, I have not been able to maintain any kind of ramp and I'm in to week 6 of flower. My ramps keep wanting to go the wrong way...
yet she looks fine, colour is nice, the buds look keen (yet sparse) and the canopy is remarkably level. She drinks but just nibbles.... oh well... I don't think I would have even tried the scrog thing without your tutelage, thanks.

Under the knife 8 times in 15 years? Jesus, HP, I didn't really want to hear that. Some folks sure have a rough go of it. I often think about accident statistics when they say dozens injured but nobody killed, as if we can take solace from that... I hope your pain isn't chronic, that is the worst. 
Hang in there


----------



## Gooch

sopappy I believe  the reason your ramp is going the opposite way is because in the later weeks of flowering the plant is using more potassium in order to build giant buds, and because potassium carries a positive charge then the positive charge is removed as the plant uses it making the ph go down i believe is how it was explained. although i would not recommend a pk booster as you dont need the phosphorus just the potassium


----------



## Hushpuppy

Oh yeah the pain is chronic for me. I have significant arthritis in my lower back and shoulders, and I have permanent nerve damage in my left sciatic nerve. The arthritis welcomes me to the morning, and the nerve damage kisses me goodnight. I have learned to ignore more pain than many people could stand. But at some point you have to have a break. The opiates can only do so much without rendering me unconscious. My smoke allows me to play drums for several hours and then relax in the evenings.

But enough about that soliloquy  What kind of trouble are you having with the "ramping"? I assume you are talking about pH shift in your rez?


----------



## Hushpuppy

I see Gooch done been studying some chemistry  That is correct to a degree. As the plant takes in what it wants, it will cause the pH to adjust to the various chemical levels in the solution. This will cause the max intake range to shift off some so that the plant is no longer able to draw in that particular element. It will be able to draw in other things that are more available. This will shift the pH again, and take the solution out of range and into range of another element, and so on until the pH bottoms out, or tops out.

With the RAW materials, you can add back those elements that the plant has taken up, and this will rebalance the pH some or all depending on the chemical levels. Once you learn all of the different elements, how and when the plant uses them the most, then you can adjust the chemistry of that plant like adjusting a clock. A very good way to maximize your plants.

However, if you don't have all of the Raw elements then you can do it a different way by controlling the pH rather than the individual chemical levels. This allows you to get the most out of your nutrients without burning them. As the elements are taken up, the pH will change to show the ratio of each element. If you allow it to drop through the full range of the pH spectrum 5.2-6.2 then the peak absorption level for each element will get crossed, which will allow the plant to have full access to that element for a period of time (that lengthens with higher PPMs). 

At that point you add pH adjuster to bring the pH scale back to the top, and allow it to go back down the scale again. I generally do this 3 times to deplete the solution, and then change it out. But you can also tell if the solution is depleted by how fast the pH drops. If the pH drops the full range of the scale within 24hrs, then I change out the solution.

I hope all of that made sense as I smoked a fat bowl of really good bud before I got on here. :doh:


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> sopappy I believe  the reason your ramp is going the opposite way is because in the later weeks of flowering the plant is using more potassium in order to build giant buds, and because potassium carries a positive charge then the positive charge is removed as the plant uses it making the ph go down i believe is how it was explained. although i would not recommend a pk booster as you dont need the phosphorus just the potassium



I say you need phosphorus in flower, that's why ideal pH is 5.7 5.9
:bolt:


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> snipped----
> At that point you add pH adjuster to bring the pH scale back to the top, and allow it to go back down the scale again. I generally do this 3 times to deplete the solution, and then change it out. But you can also tell if the solution is depleted by how fast the pH drops. If the pH drops the full range of the scale within 24hrs, then I change out the solution.
> 
> I hope all of that made sense as I smoked a fat bowl of really good bud before I got on here. :doh:



WHAT!?
I thought pH was supposed to float low to high.
That's it. I'm giving her 5.7 - 5.9 (depending on where I end up after pH adjuster) And as long as it moves, I'm happy!
They're coming to take me away haha hoho heehee

Another great post, HP. I'll never be that dedicated but I'm a big picture guy, it makes for a great read.


----------



## Gooch

sopappy said:


> I say you need phosphorus in flower, that's why ideal pH is 5.7 5.9
> :bolt:


well you do need phosphorus but not at high level as a matter of fact it is best to use more phos in early veg for added root growth and in early flower to stimulate more bud sites, but once it has established the bud sites say around week 5 then it no longer needs extra phos it wants to take tose bud sites and bring all its energy to them with potassium so from week 5 on i will be adding more potassium and not more phos


----------



## Gooch

Hushpuppy said:


> Oh yeah the pain is chronic for me. I have significant arthritis in my lower back and shoulders, and I have permanent nerve damage in my left sciatic nerve. The arthritis welcomes me to the morning, and the nerve damage kisses me goodnight. I have learned to ignore more pain than many people could stand. But at some point you have to have a break. The opiates can only do so much without rendering me unconscious. My smoke allows me to play drums for several hours and then relax in the evenings.
> 
> But enough about that soliloquy  What kind of trouble are you having with the "ramping"? I assume you are talking about pH shift in your rez?


Hush i feel you there i have nerve damage in both ulner nerves from a serious car accident, and i have had surgery on both knees, as you know nerve damage is all pain but doesnt limit strength etc at least for me. i run wires for a living and carry ladders, i am able to almost ignore the pain when working but as soon as work is over its like a waterfall of pain lol something like "what you pay attention to is what you are aware of "


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## Gooch

SP do you use RO water?


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> well you do need phosphorus but not at high level as a matter of fact it is best to use more phos in early veg for added root growth and in early flower to stimulate more bud sites, but once it has established the bud sites say around week 5 then it no longer needs extra phos it wants to take tose bud sites and bring all its energy to them with potassium so from week 5 on i will be adding more potassium and not more phos



The RAW stuff, yes, I like the theory ie:
more Phosphorus early., less later VS less potassium early, more later
but how do you implement that exactly?
It sounded easy but I still can't hit my pH and ppm targets in hydro,

You'll be adding more potassium to what? your favourite bloom nutes? 
(that's where it falls apart for me, how do I remove the phosphorus I don't want later in flower?)
But if you custom make your own complete batch every time from all those envelopes, I'm in.


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> SP do you use RO water?



nope, I have decent city water, 70 ppm, 7.6 - 7.8
HDPE plastic tubs sit bubbling, which I thought would (should) increase pH but it doesn't, it drops to 6.5


----------



## Gooch

sopappy said:


> The RAW stuff, yes, I like the theory ie:
> more Phosphorus early., less later VS less potassium early, more later
> but how do you implement that exactly?
> It sounded easy but I still can't hit my pH and ppm targets in hydro,
> 
> You'll be adding more potassium to what? your favourite bloom nutes?
> (that's where it falls apart for me, how do I remove the phosphorus I don't want later in flower?)
> But if you custom make your own complete batch every time from all those envelopes, I'm in.


Let me see if i can explain this while im high as ****- the most common problem in hydro is using to much nutes, using the recommended amount is giving luxury amounts of the various forms of nutes. All the formulas use nitrates which are great for the top of the plant shows its growing etc... but when the plants process the nitrites created by the nitrate its uses the energy of photosynthesis, and no matter how many nitries you feed it it will assimilate them using the energy, but we want that energy for flowers and buds not to burn an over abundance of nitrites. So this is why you cute your formula in half or your ppm in half or your ec in half which ever measurement you use. so if you are an ec of 2.8 which is around 1400ppm cut it back to 1000 or 1100 and then you spoon feed it. s im my case i am spoon feeding it pure phosphorus, and the amino acid formula, next week i will not add the phosphorus and instead i will add in kelp and humic acid, then the following week will be week5 i will start adding the extra pure potassium to give it the extra boost needed from the plant using all the potassium and it can use it up in 2-3 days, then when i stop adding it that is how it is removed i change the res and dont add it


----------



## Gooch

sopappy said:


> nope, I have decent city water, 70 ppm, 7.6 - 7.8
> HDPE plastic tubs sit bubbling, which I thought would (should) increase pH but it doesn't, it drops to 6.5


are you in dirt or hydro? for some reason i thought you were in hydro


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> are you in dirt or hydro? for some reason i thought you were in hydro



I screwed myself up real good this time. I had trouble with seeds germinating so I was planting 10 at a time hoping 5 would make it in to the buckets and I'd just let the leftovers grow in dirt.

Now I have the one in the bucket, 5 in dirt, all flowering
and 10 seedlings.... destined for 5 HP style manifolds in buckets and I'll keep leftovers in 4" pot hydroton for as long as I can, I may even try to hand watering them in larger pots of hydroton to harvest... I'm thinking if I bubbled water, I'll be okay. (dirt is a pain for me to discard)

Trouble is, I can't move the scrog from the veg room and they are in flower now so a pain to access the seedlings (green bulbs but I still don't like it)

I'm kinda worked up about that spoon-feeding... I'd like to follow you doing that in your buckets, keep us in the loop!


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> Let me see if i can explain this while im high as ****- the most common problem in hydro is using to much nutes, using the recommended amount is giving luxury amounts of the various forms of nutes. All the formulas use nitrates which are great for the top of the plant shows its growing etc... but when the plants process the nitrites created by the nitrate its uses the energy of photosynthesis, and no matter how many nitries you feed it it will assimilate them using the energy, but we want that energy for flowers and buds not to burn an over abundance of nitrites. So this is why you cute your formula in half or your ppm in half or your ec in half which ever measurement you use. so if you are an ec of 2.8 which is around 1400ppm cut it back to 1000 or 1100 and then you spoon feed it. s im my case i am spoon feeding it pure phosphorus, and the amino acid formula, next week i will not add the phosphorus and instead i will add in kelp and humic acid, then the following week will be week5 i will start adding the extra pure potassium to give it the extra boost needed from the plant using all the potassium and it can use it up in 2-3 days, then when i stop adding it that is how it is removed i change the res and dont add it



AHAH! "cut it back to 1000 or 1100 and then you spoon feed it"
So you still use your favourite nute but you halve the ppms, check.
Now then, does he give you a timeline of when to tweak with the packages?
(interesting find, Gooch, well done!)


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## sopappy

Last night:   6.1   570   .84
This am:      6.1   570   .84   but down 2 quarts
topped up with pH 5.5
6.0   480   .71
(water diluted the nute concentration?) 

I'm crowding the bucket a bit with the back-ups in dirt but I'm in a bit of a jam 
Week 6 began yesterday 

View attachment 101_0003.JPG


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## sopappy

Last night:   6.1   570   .84
This am:      6.1   570   .84   but down 2 quarts
topped up with pH 5.5
6.0   480   .71
(water diluted the nute concentration?) 

I'm crowding the bucket a bit with the back-ups in dirt but I'm in a bit of a jam 
Week 6 began yesterday 

View attachment 101_0003.JPG


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## Hushpuppy

For most hydro growers, the pH will shift up over time. For me it shifts down over time. I think this is because most of the growers who comment on this use GH nutrients, or one of the other nutrients (all of which have pH buffers in their solutions to help balance the pH). I use AN's Jungle Juice 3part which has no pH buffers in it. regardless of which direction your pH drifts (that doesn't matter) you want to determine which way it shifts over time so that you can set the initial pH at the opposite end of the allowable spectrum so that it can drift over to the other end as the nutrients are taken in.

When you add un nuted water to your reservoir, the concentration of the nutrients in the total solution will automatically drop. I think you are getting erratic pH fluxuations because your nutrient concentration is too low. 500-600ppm is low for vegging plants, and it is very low for flowering plants. The plants are sucking up the nutrients within a couple days, and the pH isn't able to balance because there is pH buffer left behind in the depleted water. You need to bump it up. I would increase it to 800ppm then in about 4-5 days bump it up again to 1000ppm.

I think the Raw ingredients is interesting, and with some study and experimentation it can be applied well. But for me, its a little too much tinkering. I have very little trouble with the Jungle Juice making my plants happy. I still have to do some tinkering as it has no pH buffers, so I am having to manually deal with the shifting pH, but my plants love it, and It isn't so much tinkering that its a pain. It keeps me in the grow room enough to keep a good eye on the kids, but not so much that the tedious work that could get really messed up if I smoke a bowl before adding a few mg of potassium. I have a bad memory as it is, I don't want to add more little things to remember so that I don't damage the plants by adding too much of a certain element or not enough of another.


----------



## Hushpuppy

Let me summarize that: Pappy you need to increase the amount of nutrients (slowly) to get to 1000ppm. Then you need to set your pH at the opposite end of the acceptable range for hydro, which is 5.3-6.2 so if your pH is drifting up over time, you need to set the pH at the lower end. 

Yes aeration will absolutely affect the pH of the water. That is because you are dissolving atmospheric chemicals into the water when you aerate. Those chemicals, like hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen, all interact with the chemical in the solution. It doesn't really matter which way it makes it go. What matters is that you get the full spectrum swing(drift) across the acceptable pH range. If that happens every time, the plants will remain healthy. That is one reason why some people in soilless have a lot of trouble, because they don't get as good of a pH drift all the way across the pH range.


----------



## Joe420Camel

I drift down (too)

my guess is the water, I use distilled. (no buffers at all) 
you guys use RO or tap or distilled or ??  (NOT tap I bet)

regardless, drift up or down, it don't really matter.  just know which way your system wants to go and start at the other end. 

Like a car that's out of alignment... pulls right or left, don't matter, steer to the other side of the lane and keep it between the lines (~5.4 - 6.2)

PS
Plants look AWESOME :icon_smile: !!
:48:


----------



## Joe420Camel

.

As for feeding, I try to do about the same thing...
Fill her plate at the start of a week, nothing but water (and pH adjust as needed) between platefuls.

Yes, the concentration (ppm) will go down over the week as she removes nutrient/salt from the solution just like the water level goes down as she drinks.
But unlike the water which you refill daily+, only replenish nutes once a week.
Your starting solution should be in the 1000+ ppm range to start and then watch how/what she does.
If she gobbles it down to 800 in 24 hours you know she's hungry and you could refill her plate potentially sooner and or at a higher ppm
If she doesn't want any and it sits at 1000 and her leaf tips start to brown/burn you know 1000 too much and you need to dilute the res somehow
If it only goes down a little and the leaf tips are good... you found her sweet-spot.
Don't get too excited it's a moving target and she will change what and how much she wants depending on where in the life cycle 

:48:


----------



## Gooch

sopappy said:


> AHAH! "cut it back to 1000 or 1100 and then you spoon feed it"
> So you still use your favourite nute but you halve the ppms, check.
> Now then, does he give you a timeline of when to tweak with the packages?
> (interesting find, Gooch, well done!)


Yes he does, and he is doing live classes every week for free also and you can ask questions etc.. online
in the video i posted he explains when and how, just consider everything he says is for cannibis regardless of what he says its for lol
I was only paying attention super close to the timeline i am in currently i have seedling and flowering, so i have on hand phosphorus, amino acids,seaweed, and humic acid, this weekend i will get nitrogen, and potassium and maybe some yucca but that **** is so expensive and incredible


----------



## Gooch

Yes i agree with the ph ranges i set mine to 5.5 at around 1100ppm or 2.0 ec then i let it drift up till around 5.9 and it hangs out there, until i dilute it and then add more nutes


----------



## sopappy

HP, Joe, thanks, I'm amassing some great notes here. The moving target analogy is perfect.
I did a 'reset' last night. HP, I'm not at 800-1000 because she was only drinking, and my notes say, if only drinking, ppms were too high so I halved to 530 and pH of 6.0 (room going either way) 
5.9 tonight but no change in ppm as usual. 
Are you guys LED?

.. I got royally confused there, no dope tonight :-(
sorry, I gave the totally wrong reason why I diluted the full strength nutes last night... I AM going to 1100, just NOT overnight.


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> Yes i agree with the ph ranges i set mine to 5.5 at around 1100ppm or 2.0 ec then i let it drift up till around 5.9 and it hangs out there, until i dilute it and then add more nutes



I forget... LED or HPS?


----------



## Gooch

HPS and LED, I dont know who told you that"'m not at 800-1000 because she was only drinking, and my notes say, if only drinking, ppms were too high so I halved to 530" but you are definitely not giving them enough nutes if you were your buds would be bigger, you are basically giving it 25% of the recommended amount i suggest 50%, you diont have much time left


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> Yes he does, and he is doing live classes every week snipped



I sit spellbound listening to the guy, he picked the right vocation.
the yucca makes a foliar spray coat the leaf instead of beading, who the hell figured that one out? fascinating stuff this
I think the acid is the star though, I want to try that one day


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> HPS and LED, I dont know who told you that"'m not at 800-1000 because she was only drinking, and my notes say, if only drinking, ppms were too high so I halved to 530" but you are definitely not giving them enough nutes if you were your buds would be bigger, you are basically giving it 25% of the recommended amount i suggest 50%, you diont have much time left



.. I got royally confused there, no dope tonight :-(
sorry, I  gave the totally wrong reason why I diluted the full strength nutes last  night... I AM going to 1100, just NOT overnight.


----------



## sopappy

Joe420Camel said:


> .
> 
> As for feeding, I try to do about the same thing...
> Fill her plate at the start of a week, nothing but water (and pH adjust as needed) between platefuls.
> 
> Yes, the concentration (ppm) will go down over the week as she removes nutrient/salt from the solution just like the water level goes down as she drinks.
> But unlike the water which you refill daily+, only replenish nutes once a week.
> Your starting solution should be in the 1000+ ppm range to start and then watch how/what she does.
> If she gobbles it down to 800 in 24 hours you know she's hungry and you could refill her plate potentially sooner and or at a higher ppm
> If she doesn't want any and it sits at 1000 and her leaf tips start to brown/burn you know 1000 too much and you need to dilute the res somehow
> If it only goes down a little and the leaf tips are good... you found her sweet-spot.
> Don't get too excited it's a moving target and she will change what and how much she wants depending on where in the life cycle
> 
> :48:



I've never seen a hint of browning at the tips, she just doesn't eat.
Drinks 2 quarts a day, nibbles maybe, the dog just don't hunt.


----------



## Hushpuppy

Let me throw a monkey wrench into you thoughts about PPM. I feed at about 1300-1400ppm right now in flower(and I use HPS. LED lighting will require less nutrients than HPS but no less than half). After a new rez change and there is new nutrients present, within 3-5 days the pH will cycle (for mine it goes from 5.9-6.1 down to 4.5-5.0 before I readjust the pH) I can check the PPM and find that it *has risen rather than fallen*. I am not surprised that you see very little change in your PPM level. There is enough "stuff" in the mix that will trigger the meter to read the PPM. Nutrient salts are always present in synthetic nutrients, and these salts conduct electricity very well. The electrical flow through the solution is what the meter uses to measure PPM. EC stands for electrical conductivity.

So the bottom line is that you really can't go by the PPM meter as a measure of what your plants are eating. You can and should use it to make sure of how much you are putting in, but I actually use mine to tell when I am getting significant salt buildup. But what you are seeing is because the water is being used and there isn't a lot of nutes in the solution, the measure being a proportion of an amount of conductive elements in the solution to the amount of water in that solution. 

So if you put in 5 gallons of water to a system and it has a PPM of 500 and the plants use 50% of the nutrients, and drinks 50% of the water, the proportion of nutrients to water is still going to give you 500ppm reading. Actually, depending on the amount and type of salts used in the making of the nutrients, the PPM may actually rise.

This is just to help you understand some of the chemistry of growing.  If you are under LED then the plants won't need 1200-1400ppm. They would need more like about 900ppm during flower.


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> snipped, notes taken
> 
> This is just to help you understand some of the chemistry of growing.  If you are under LED then the plants won't need 1200-1400ppm. They would need more like about 900ppm during flower.



Indeed, that does help. I'm obsessing with details and would probably do better without the metre!!
Anyways....I did another change this morning
6.1 1040...   close enough

Keep looking over your shoulder, Gooch, I'm going to give you a race!


----------



## Joe420Camel

.

One really shouldn't compare ppm's without topping off (and giving a little time).

Its a ratio of water to salt.

2 items 2 inputs

PPM
no  eat,  no  drink  = no change
yes eat, yes drink  = no change
yes eat, no  drink  = ppm DOWN
 no  eat,   yes drink  = ppm UP

-BUT-

if you don't top-off before you take a reading, you wont/cant see the ppm's going down.
in fact, if she eats a little and drinks a LOT they will appear to be going UP before top-off, when actually that are going down.


EDIT
obviously its not all quite THAT simple, but from a PPM meter's point of view only, it IS 

:48:


----------



## Gooch

If we are in a race i hope you win, and i will help you win, if i can. I am so giddy about my first hydro grow its so much easier then dirt, at least for me as a noob, I wish i could use dirt although its heavy and makes it harder to move it around. I think hydro is where i will stick it out.


----------



## sopappy

Joe420Camel said:


> .
> 
> One really shouldn't compare ppm's without topping off (and giving a little time).
> <<<<<<<<<DAMMIT>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> 
> Its a ratio of water to salt.
> 
> 2 items 2 inputs
> 
> PPM
> no  eat,  no  drink  = no change
> yes eat, yes drink  = no change    <<<<< whoa, this explains a lot
> yes eat, no  drink  = ppm DOWN   <<<<ahah!, my girl's a lush, never see this
> no  eat,   yes drink  = ppm UP   <<< seen it, that's when I wrote 'voodoo'
> 
> -BUT-
> 
> if you don't top-off before you take a reading, you wont/cant see the ppm's going down.
> in fact, if she eats a little and drinks a LOT they will appear to be going UP before top-off, when actually that are going down.
> 
> <voodoo explained,>>>>>>>>>
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT
> obviously its not all quite THAT simple, but from a PPM meter's point of view only, it IS
> 
> <I'm a cheat sheet guy, dummy down guy, that yes/no thing is excellent>
> :48:




sunuvabitch, I knew if I kept whining long enough....
My routine *WAS* to check ph, ppm, and record them.
I then measure the rez level and it's almost always down 2 qts
I then decide how to pH the water to encourage the ramp.
Small wonder I was confused with the results.
Thank you!


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> If we are in a race i hope you win, and i will help you win, if i can. I am so giddy about my first hydro grow its so much easier then dirt, at least for me as a noob, I wish i could use dirt although its heavy and makes it harder to move it around. I think hydro is where i will stick it out.



hahaha, no losers in these races
I'm still ironing out kinks but frankly, this is the biggest plant I've ever grown already. I think I can make this work.
Funny you mention dirt being hard to move around.... it least you CAN move it. My plant stretched and HP helped me salvage a scrog type thing but it's in my VEG room... try moving that!
I'm going to try pellets only instead of dirt with my leftovers this go-round.


----------



## Gooch

sopappy said:


> hahaha, no losers in these races
> I'm still ironing out kinks but frankly, this is the biggest plant I've ever grown already. I think I can make this work.
> Funny you mention dirt being hard to move around.... it least you CAN move it. My plant stretched and HP helped me salvage a scrog type thing but it's in my VEG room... try moving that!
> I'm going to try pellets only instead of dirt with my leftovers this go-round.


my current grow is in clay pebbles, they are ok but they are dirty. I have high hopes for this Sure To grow medium, one piece no ph interaction and supposed to make for crazy roots, o yea and crazy lightweight so my second grow will be another first for using the medium, should be interesting. On a side note it cost me 3 times as much for clay pebbles as it  did for the sure to grow


----------



## sopappy

Clay pellets and hydroton are pretty much the same thing, no?
What do you mean by dirty? 
I'm re-using mine after a H2O2 rinse and things seem okay, I like it.


----------



## sopappy

I'm not sure how Joe caught it, but I've been measuring BEFORE topping up. 
I'm going to post what I do in more detail here. 
I'll just edit additions, y'all might spot something, thanks!

12th am    6.1    1040
12th pm    5.9    1050
13th am    5.4               down 2L, added 6.8
13th am    5.6     920
... am/pm is my schedule, the plants sleep during the day


----------



## Hushpuppy

That looks fine to me. This is just the way I do mine: whenever I top up, I add in my water or solution to my system (and because I have a 40ish gallon system) I allow it to circulate for a couple hours and then I check and adjust the pH. If your system is just individual DWC buckets, you would have to do it a little different. Each setup is unique to itself and the operator so you may not be able to do things exactly like me or someone else would do. I think in about 5 days, you will see a big difference in the plants from the increase in nutrients.


----------



## Hushpuppy

That pH swing tells you that she is both eating and drinking while the lights are on.


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> That looks fine to me. This is just the way I do mine: whenever I top up, I add in my water or solution to my system (and because I have a 40ish gallon system) I allow it to circulate for a couple hours and then I check and adjust the pH. If your system is just individual DWC buckets, you would have to do it a little different. Each setup is unique to itself and the operator so you may not be able to do things exactly like me or someone else would do. I think in about 5 days, you will see a big difference in the plants from the increase in nutrients.



wait a minute... what is the pH of the water you top up with?
later, do you just adjust (see what I did there?) by adding pH up or down directly to the res?

I sure hope you're right about next week, HP, I'll be starting to check trichromes by then :-(
But I always end up with some pot hahaha
I hate having to buy it, such a crap shoot.
(this **** tastes like it washed up on shore somewhere)


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> That pH swing tells you that she is both eating and drinking while the lights are on.



:lama:
me and my girl gaining on Gooch!

.5 isn't too fast a swing for 12 hours, HP?


----------



## Gooch

I dont see any pics?


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> I dont see any pics?



These are taken in green light with a flash. I was startled to see all those trichromes, flash really brings them out, they don't look as good as that. 

View attachment 100_0026.JPG


View attachment 100_0029.JPG


View attachment 100_0037.JPG


----------



## Gooch

here is a link to the NPK university video this is part 1 it was this week part 2 is this coming week https://attendee.gototraining.com/30t0x/recording/3937957340457948418?branding=30t0x


----------



## sopappy

RDWC 2 x 5gal  + res (1 bucket has no plant)

12th am 6.1 1040
12th pm 5.9 1050
13th am 5.4 down 2L, added 6.8
13th am 5.6 920
13th pm 4.9 1030
14th am 4.7 down 1L, ...

do I try to get it up to 5.5 or just do early nute change?


----------



## Gooch

that looks good i think that 4.9 is little acidic but not terrible, try to keep it at the lowest 5.5 then pop it up to 6 again and let it float back down


----------



## pcduck

The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result, each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6.


----------



## sopappy

yikes! thanks for that tidbit, duck.

my ramp decreases, it's not quite down another .5 and only drank half the usual 2 L,
I'll pH the quart to raise it 5.5 which now strikes me as pretty huge, (and plant no like?)
or should I just do res change early?


----------



## Gooch

pcduck said:


> The pH scale is logarithmic and as a result, each whole pH value below 7 is ten times more acidic than the next higher value. For example, pH 4 is ten times more acidic than pH 5 and 100 times (10 times 10) more acidic than pH 6.


interesting info, its bizarre then to think that some elements cant be taken up unless there is a 100 times swing. Gotta try and wrap my head around this:joint4:


----------



## Hushpuppy

Pappy; When I top up my rez with plain water, the pH of the plain water is around 6.3 I think. It varies some because it is well water that has some hard elements in it (not enough to be a problem). I add it straight to my rez without adjusting it and then allow it to circulate for a couple hours so that it can naturally adjust to whatever it will. THEN I go back and check it and adjust it. 

I don't add the adjuster straight to the rez exactly. I draw a cup of water from the rez to check and then add adjuster to that cup of solution then pour that into the rez. I then allow it to circulate for a couple hours and then check it again. The reason I do it this way is because the whole reservoir of available water is not just in the rez but also in the bottoms of the totes that hold the plants like a DWC bucket. So I have to allow anything I do to the rez to circulate throughout the system to be truly accurate when checking pH.

Now your system is smaller with less water so everything will move a little quicker for you. The pH swing that you are getting is a bit fast but I suspect that is because the plants are hungry and they are sucking the nutes hard when the pH is in range. What you will learn to do is judge the amounts of adjuster for a given reading and a given amount of water. If the ppm was around 1000 and you have 8 gallons of water in your system and it drops to 5.9 and loses 2liters of water, then you will want to add back and try to bump it back to 6.0-6.1 which will probably take about 5ml of pH up depending on the pH of your tap water.

If you change your rez completely and set it to 1000ish PPM then it should last about 1 week before its completely depleted. But if you top up with nuted water, it will extend that time by a day or two depending on how much you are topping up. I wouldn't worry too much about how acidic the solution gets at the lower end unless it gets down below 4.0 as you won't be letting it stay low very long. You will eventually learn the rhythm of the plants and hydro system. The smaller the system is, the faster that rhythm will move, but the larger it is the slower it will move. That is why I have a 40ish gallon system for 3 plants. If I had the room for it, it would be a 60gal system so that I could let it go for a week without having to adjust it.


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Pappy; When I top up my rez with plain water, the pH of the plain water is around 6.3 I think. It varies some because it is well water that has some hard elements in it (not enough to be a problem). I add it straight to my rez without adjusting it and then allow it to circulate for a couple hours so that it can naturally adjust to whatever it will. THEN I go back and check it and adjust it.
> 
> I don't add the adjuster straight to the rez exactly. I draw a cup of water from the rez to check and then add adjuster to that cup of solution then pour that into the rez. I then allow it to circulate for a couple hours and then check it again. The reason I do it this way is because the whole reservoir of available water is not just in the rez but also in the bottoms of the totes that hold the plants like a DWC bucket. So I have to allow anything I do to the rez to circulate throughout the system to be truly accurate when checking pH.
> 
> Now your system is smaller with less water so everything will move a little quicker for you. The pH swing that you are getting is a bit fast but I suspect that is because the plants are hungry and they are sucking the nutes hard when the pH is in range. What you will learn to do is judge the amounts of adjuster for a given reading and a given amount of water. If the ppm was around 1000 and you have 8 gallons of water in your system and it drops to 5.9 and loses 2liters of water, then you will want to add back and try to bump it back to 6.0-6.1 which will probably take about 5ml of pH up depending on the pH of your tap water.
> 
> If you change your rez completely and set it to 1000ish PPM then it should last about 1 week before its completely depleted. But if you top up with nuted water, it will extend that time by a day or two depending on how much you are topping up. I wouldn't worry too much about how acidic the solution gets at the lower end unless it gets down below 4.0 as you won't be letting it stay low very long. You will eventually learn the rhythm of the plants and hydro system. The smaller the system is, the faster that rhythm will move, but the larger it is the slower it will move. That is why I have a 40ish gallon system for 3 plants. If I had the room for it, it would be a 60gal system so that I could let it go for a week without having to adjust it.



Why do you top up immediately with what you have (6.3) instead of taking the pH reading and begin your adjustment with that first cup?

When I try to bump readings, I'm going slow, right? (rapid pH swings are bad) For example, right now at 4.6, I want to bump about 30L to around 6.0 so it can ramp down again. Is that the wrong approach? 
  Too big a jump? 4.6 to 5.0 still too big?

2 buckets, res, 30L... the drip ring feed ends with a valve that I can crack open to piddle into the res for bubbles or open full bore (to empty) or leave in the res for fast recirculating. <<<< wrong, wrong, wrong, all it does recirculate the water in the res (as it bypasses the drip rings (buckets))

I'm concluding that I would waste more nutes using that huge reservoir but I'm wasting as much or more with my little one anyways probably
I almost hate asking you stuff.... I hope a lot of what you write is boilerplate. 
you and THG, the effort

I'm rolling a fatty and doing a nute change tonight.... another exciting Saturday night.... nute change, and youtube videos of dead rockers, I can hardly wait!


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> that looks good i think that 4.9 is little acidic but not terrible, try to keep it at the lowest 5.5 then pop it up to 6 again and let it float back down



5.5 went by so fast I missed it.
I'm down to 4.7 today, do I try to adjust that to 6.0  (130 times less acidic)
all in one go? Isn't rapid pH swing baaaad, I'll just change again tonight, 30L, no big wup.
What's your technique for topping up, Gooch?


----------



## sopappy

Tidbit:
My res has been getter cooler, basement, northern climate, it was dipping to 60
I put in a aquarium thermometer and probably inadequate for 30L tank.
Those panda paper sheets I use to cover things make a HUGE difference to water temp.
I flipped them over as aquarium heater was sloooooow and it shot up to 20 from 18 in a few hours under the LED.
The cheapest and most effective temp control and I can't automate it.


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> here is a link to the NPK university video this is part 1 it was this week part 2 is this coming week https://attendee.gototraining.com/30t0x/recording/3937957340457948418?branding=30t0x



damn, I can't use a flash player with Tor


----------



## Kraven

I'm popping in to see how things are going pappy, looks like you have plenty of help.


----------



## Gooch

sopappy said:


> 5.5 went by so fast I missed it.
> I'm down to 4.7 today, do I try to adjust that to 6.0  (130 times less acidic)
> all in one go? Isn't rapid pH swing baaaad, I'll just change again tonight, 30L, no big wup.
> What's your technique for topping up, Gooch?


It depends on what i have if i have a decent ec/ppm then i add water my tap water is around a ph7 so if i have to ph it down i simply squirt it right into my res and stir it till i get a reading i looking for, but it seems like a good idea to add the ph down to some water and then add the water but i have 25 gallons so i just keep squirting it in


----------



## Gooch

sopappy said:


> Tidbit:
> My res has been getter cooler, basement, northern climate, it was dipping to 60
> I put in a aquarium thermometer and probably inadequate for 30L tank.
> Those panda paper sheets I use to cover things make a HUGE difference to water temp.
> I flipped them over as aquarium heater was sloooooow and it shot up to 20 from 18 in a few hours under the LED.
> The cheapest and most effective temp control and I can't automate it.


I put my res on 4x4 wood to keep it off the floor, and i added am adjustable heater so i can set it from 62 to 80


----------



## sopappy

Gooch said:


> I put my res on 4x4 wood to keep it off the floor, and i added am adjustable heater so i can set it from 62 to 80



Wood is a great insulator but it'll get wet. I use thick open cell rubber mats, pricey but insulate with air and great on slippery cement. I use them in the summer too, I read on a nute container NOT to store the container on concrete floors.


----------



## sopappy

Kraven said:


> I'm popping in to see how things are going pappy, looks like you have plenty of help.



I can't say enough about the place, Kraven. It was the first forum I tried and  I struck gold.


----------



## sopappy

I have that one long legged manifolded / scrogged hybrid under my larger LED
It almost fills the pattern 2 x 4 at 26" in flower.
I was going to use 3 x 5gal buckets under that LED  :rofl:
I wish I knew what I was doing


----------



## sopappy

Joe420Camel said:


> I drift down (too)
> 
> my guess is the water, I use distilled. (no buffers at all)
> you guys use RO or tap or distilled or ??  (NOT tap I bet)
> 
> regardless, drift up or down, it don't really matter.  just know which way your system wants to go and start at the other end.
> 
> Like a car that's out of alignment... pulls right or left, don't matter, steer to the other side of the lane and keep it between the lines (~5.4 - 6.2)
> 
> PS
> Plants look AWESOME :icon_smile: !!
> :48:



Yup, tap, city water, about 7.8   90 ppm
overnight with a bubbler, it DROPS to 6.7
seems to me it should go up with the oxygen


----------



## Joe420Camel

.

what does your res go up to after


> 14th pm 4.7 down 2L, added 6.7



If the WHOLE res isn't getting up to 6.1 you will need to add more pH+

On the 13th you wanted to adjust your whole res back up to 6.1

From that list you can see: 
your plant is in 5.5 or below for almost 3 days and only on the high side of the scale (6.1 - 5.9) for a day or less

-----

I've done my setup for about 2 years now so I know I need to add almost 2ml of straight pH+ to my res (3-4gal) to get from 5.5 up to 6.1 
I also know at the peak of flower I may need to do this every 14-18 hours as letting it go 24 lets it swing too far (5.4 or lower)

----------

edit:
how did we get from ~1000ppm to 1280 just from topping off with 90ppm tap water (which is incredibly good)  and adjusting back to 6.1?


:48:


----------



## sopappy

Here ya go, Joe, if you have the time and inclination, thanks!

what does your res go up to after Quote:
14th pm 4.7 down 2L, added 6.7

==========> I take the pH reading but don't look at ppm, no reading
After I top up with water pH 6.7, I measured ppm of 990
I must have made a gaff here because I show the same pH after the 2L of 6.7
(in other words, it didn't go up, it didn't move, but I may have goofed)

If the WHOLE res isn't getting up to 6.1 you will need to add more pH+

==========> I think it is NOW. HP mentionned the recirculating and I had been measuring too soon I think. (damn, I did it again... said "I think" twice!, damn pot)


On the 13th you wanted to adjust your whole res back up to 6.1

==========> yes, I did, but it barely budged, only .2 to 5.6 (but I was worried about too rapid a pH swing...)


From that list you can see:
your plant is in 5.5 or below for almost 3 days and only on the high side of the scale (6.1 - 5.9) for a day or less

==========> ya, I read too much, I saw 5.7 - 5.9 was optimum for flower somewhere, I'm going in a 6.2 this reset this time, I'll be trying to slow it's decent.


-----

I've done my setup for about 2 years now so I know I need to add almost 2ml of straight pH+ to my res (3-4gal) to get from 5.5 up to 6.1

==========> When you call the res 3-4 gals is that JUST the res size, how much liquid total?
I'm using 3x as much pH up 


I also know at the peak of flower I may need to do this every 14-18 hours as letting it go 24 lets it swing too far (5.4 or lower)

==========> Jeeeze, I let it get to 4.5 but I was starting at 5.9 maybe less, 6.2 this time, I check them at least every 12 and seems no harm in taming that fall with drops straight from the pH up, okay, this should be a better week

----------

edit:
how did we get from ~1000ppm to 1280 just from topping off with 90ppm tap water (which is incredibly good) and adjusting back to 6.1?

==========>hahaha, I panicked at the 4.4 and did a complete change, prepped at 6.1 1280 which I thought was rich then added the 2L of 6.7 to arrive at 6.2 1180 (an hour of recirculating later)

==========> 6.2 down to 5.5  is .7 range  a .1 "allowable" drop per day? 
how conveeeeeeeenient
I'll correct ph to 6.1 tomorrow, next day 6.0, next day 5.9, until 5.5 = nute change


----------



## Joe420Camel

.

I use a 5 gallon tote and am lucky to have 3.75 gal of liquid

:48:


----------



## Gooch

j420c if you want something better to use then ph+ look for potassium sulfate, the plant uses it and it will raise the ph. Win Win


----------



## Joe420Camel

.

that is an ingredient in some/many additives especially the finishing/ripening/bloom ones.

I've noticed GH's (liquid) KoolBloom will raise your pH 
but it will raise your PPM waaaay more than pH+ 

:48:


----------



## Gooch

but that has way more then just straight up potassium


----------



## Hushpuppy

That 1280 should be ok. It may be a little hot, depending on what plants you have. Satori doesn't like a lot of nutrients, and Blueberry Punch would be happy to drink from the bottle I think 

The rapid swings are typical of smaller rez size. The less solution you have, the faster the plants can suck up the nutrients or water and cause the pH to swing.


----------



## sopappy

RDWC 2 x 5gal + res (1 bucket has no plant)

12th am 6.1 1040
12th pm 5.9 1050
13th am 5.4 down 2L, added 6.8
13th am 5.6 920
13th pm 4.9 1030
14th am 4.7 down 1L, ...
14th pm 4.7 down 2L, added 6.7
14th pm 4.7 990
15th am 4.4
reset to 6.1 but thought 1280 ppm too hot, had 2L room left to add 6.7 water, circ'd
15th noon 6.2 1180 
15th pm (missed)
16th am 6.1 added 2L 6.7 
for 6.1 1120

My gaffs were not letting water circulate enough and measuring ppms before topping up.
Two things I don't think I would have figured out, THANKS!


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> That 1280 should be ok. It may be a little hot, depending on what plants you have. Satori doesn't like a lot of nutrients, and Blueberry Punch would be happy to drink from the bottle I think
> 
> The rapid swings are typical of smaller rez size. The less solution you have, the faster the plants can suck up the nutrients or water and cause the pH to swing.



Something called Dark Angel, not much of a selection but at least they all popped.

I'm thinking (actually, really really hoping) I may have messed up with my colour code clips. I bet this plant is a haze and has a 12 week flower. There is NO hint of red hairs on her, today is beginning of week 7 

View attachment 100_0048.jpg


View attachment 100_0047.jpg


----------



## sopappy

12th am 6.1 1040
12th pm 5.9 1050
13th am 5.4 down 2L, added 6.8
13th am 5.6 920
13th pm 4.9 1030
14th am 4.7 down 1L, ...
14th pm 4.7 down 2L, added 6.7
14th pm 4.7 990
15th am 4.4
================ reset to 6.1 1280 ppm, added 2L  6.7 
15th noon 6.2 1180
15th pm (missed)
16th am 6.1 added 2L 6.7
16th am 6.1 1120
16th pm 5.9  added 1L  6.7
16th pm 5.9  1090
17th am 5.4  added 2L  7.4
17th noon 5.4 !!! added 4 mL ph UP directly
17th aft 5.8

ramp down is fast, almost half a point a day, 
5 mL per day pH UP to slow it down is my guess


----------



## Hushpuppy

What you will find is, the pH will swing slowly right after a new rez change with high ppm solution. But then each time you adjust back up, it will drift down faster and faster. That is because the nutrients are being depleted each time the pH swings across the spectrum. After about the 3rd adjustment, depending on the plant and how much nutrients it eats, you will have depleted the nutrients. You can let it go for another day or two if you need to before changing the rez but if the plant is a heavier eater, allowing it to go a couple more days on depleted solution can possibly show some hunger issues like deficiencies.

When you get down to the last of it, and the buds are good and fat, and are just ripening, you can let them go several days on depleted solution as they will have enough nutrients within the body of the plant to carry it to harvest. However, if you have a deeper plant that has many lower branches with immature buds, you can continue to feed them up to the first harvest


----------



## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> What you will find is, the pH will swing slowly right after a new rez change with high ppm solution. But then each time you adjust back up, it will drift down faster and faster. That is because the nutrients are being depleted each time the pH swings across the spectrum. After about the 3rd adjustment, depending on the plant and how much nutrients it eats, you will have depleted the nutrients. You can let it go for another day or two if you need to before changing the rez but if the plant is a heavier eater, allowing it to go a couple more days on depleted solution can possibly show some hunger issues like deficiencies.
> 
> When you get down to the last of it, and the buds are good and fat, and are just ripening, you can let them go several days on depleted solution as they will have enough nutrients within the body of the plant to carry it to harvest. However, if you have a deeper plant that has many lower branches with immature buds, you can continue to feed them up to the first harvest



nicely explained; 
with all those huge fans, I can probably stop now


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## sopappy

I'm not sure if I should start a new thread, I will be manifolding best 5 of these 10
I'm upset already at the stretch.
That's a T5 fixture with two bulbs removed.
There is a fan blowing across the canopy otherwise they'd be toast. 

View attachment 100_0052.jpg


View attachment 100_0054.jpg


View attachment 100_0058.jpg


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## Gooch

how old are your t5 bulbs? plants stretch to search for blue, if they are stretching under t5 maybe your bulbs are bad


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## sopappy

Gooch said:


> how old are your t5 bulbs? plants stretch to search for blue, if they are stretching under t5 maybe your bulbs are bad



interesting, but they've done this since new. I'll add in the other two bulbs
sunblaster 54W HO 10000K


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## sopappy

================ reset to 6.1 1280 ppm, added 2L 6.7
15th noon 6.2 1180
15th pm (missed)
16th am 6.1 added 2L 6.7
16th am 6.1 1120
16th pm 5.9 added 1L 6.7
16th pm 5.9 1090
17th am 5.4 added 2L 7.4
17th noon 5.4 !!! added 4 mL ph UP directly
17th pm 5.7
18th am 4.9 added 1L 5ml ph up
18th am 6.0 1100
18th pm 5.4 1100
19th am 5.2 added 2L 10ml ph up
19th am 6.3 1130


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## Hushpuppy

Don't use the 10K bulbs. They are really only usefull during flower to cause the plant to produce more resin(this what the claim is anyway). The best spectrum for growing is the 6500K HO bulbs.

It looks like you have had them on that one rez for several days now. With that small of a rez, you will need to change the water completely about every 4 days. You will notice during flower that at the beginning, they won't take in nutes as fast but then they pick up during the next couple weeks and will eat hard until about week 7 (for 9-10wk strains), then they will drop off again.


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## pcduck

I have a 4  bulb t-5. I put them about 3" above leaf and lower when they get more leaves.


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## sopappy

pcduck said:


> I have a 4  bulb t-5. I put them about 3" above leaf and lower when they get more leaves.




Do you have a fan blowing across the canopy? I have similar fixture.
T54W HO will cook my seedlings that close without constant air flow.
I was using 10K by mistake, looking for 6500 that size...
I switched them to some old cool white hoping to tame the stretch.


amazon.com got'em, homedepot got 'em, lowes.com, got 'em
cana d'uh versions? not found 

View attachment 100_0061.jpg


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Don't use the 10K bulbs. They are really only usefull during flower to cause the plant to produce more resin(this what the claim is anyway). The best spectrum for growing is the 6500K HO bulbs.
> 
> It looks like you have had them on that one rez for several days now. With that small of a rez, you will need to change the water completely about every 4 days. You will notice during flower that at the beginning, they won't take in nutes as fast but then they pick up during the next couple weeks and will eat hard until about week 7 (for 9-10wk strains), then they will drop off again.



Never even thought about it until I typed it actually. ****.
Think I can find 6500 up here?

I did a change this morning and ended up with 5.9 and 1130
Start week 8 next Tuesday and seeing red hairs so pulled out my trusty magnifier. 
I've wasted a small fortune on magnifiers but always come back to this one. 

View attachment 100_0066.jpg


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## pcduck

sopappy said:


> Do you have a fan blowing across the canopy? I have similar fixture.
> T54W HO will cook my seedlings that close without constant air flow.
> I was using 10K by mistake, looking for 6500 that size...
> I switched them to some old cool white hoping to tame the stretch.
> 
> 
> amazon.com got'em, homedepot got 'em, lowes.com, got 'em
> cana d'uh versions? not found



I have a fan running across the tops 24/7


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## sopappy

19 am 6.3 1130 
19 pm 6.4 1130
20 am 5.9 1120 after RESET
20 am 6.0 1120
21 am 5.5 ---- 2L 5mL pH UP
21 am 6.6 1060
21 pm 5.9 1120
22 am 5.3 ---- 2L 4 mL pH UP
22 am 5.9 1100

I was giddy 21 am 
and it looks like maybe some colas coming...
I sure hope she's going 12 weeks, week 8 begins Tuesday and I see red hairs now :-( 

View attachment cola coming.jpg


View attachment colas.jpg


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## Hushpuppy

Pappy, what exactly is that thing you have there? It looks like a residential plumber's pipe threader.  There are several places online. If you want 4' 6500k bulbs, You can probably go to Amazon and get them easily.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Pappy, what exactly is that thing you have there? It looks like a residential plumber's pipe threader.  There are several places online. If you want 4' 6500k bulbs, You can probably go to Amazon and get them easily.



hahaha do you mean my coated eye loupe thingie? 

Amazon.com has them but Amazon.ca is a joke.
They don't even have them in big box stores here, it's absurd.
I'll have to go to a specialty lighting store, I'm afraid they'll get busted in transit.


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## sopappy

reset
20 am 5.9 1120 
20 pm 6.0 1120
21 am 5.5 ---- 2L 5mL ph up
21 am 6.6 1060
21 pm 5.9 1120
22 am 5.3 ---- 2L 4mL ph up
22 am 5.9 1100
22 pm 5.6 
23 am 6.0 - - - 2L 5ml ph up
23 am 6.0 1090
23 pm 6.1 - - - 1L  6.7
24 am 6.0 1040

Today is day 4 so I'll be resetting tonight and am trying for 6.0 again, 1200 or so
am to pm is my day, plant is sleeping, lights on overnight

Week 8 starts tuesday
I hope it's not my final week, buds are sparse.


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## sopappy

My seedlings are at node 3 so I am preparing to manifold again.
I'm following HP's suggestions this time and have condensed it to a cheat sheet:

3-5 nodes tall, top (just above) the 3rd node
(jeeeze, should I top them at 3 hoping to avoid all that stem) <---------------------hahaha, stoned

wait for the next 2 node pairs to fully emerge
top each branch at the first node
wait for recovery, clean growth

4 branches will emerge, 2 branches on each side of the first "T". 
Bend these 4 over to horizontal and tie them
once these 4 branches grow out some, the stem will have formed an "H" pattern


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## Hushpuppy

I think that plan will work ideally for you. The pH process looks like it is doing exactly as it should. At this point, forget about the weeks of flower versus the amount of bud growth and the suspected harvest schedule. That has already gone out the window with the issues you had. She has gone on her own time schedule now. And from the looks of the buds and pistils, she has a good 3 weeks left before she will be ripe. What you will have to do now is watch the growth of the buds, the color of the pistils, and most importantly, the color of the trichomes. 

The reason I say to watch the color of the pistils is that they generally will last only so long before they begin dying off (turning brown, gold, red, or whatever color that strain decides). By the time the buds are beginning to ripen, you should have a significant amount of dead pistils in the buds. While this is not a good indicator of bud ripeness for harvest, it is a beginning indicator that the buds are getting some age on them.


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## sopappy

I always like to pluck them first signs of amber but I'll defer to your judgement if I can get some good shots of the trichromes. I think this is a haze and mostly sativa, I see the narrow leaves but why isn't she trying for height?
I must have really taken the wind out of her sails with those long stems.

Here's the twins with a typical seedling, I'll be letting these go 3 weeks now before I can put them in the net pots and buckets.
Boy, does that hydroton drain fast. I spray the cube & pellets twice a day 20 squirts.
How long am I going to get away with this?  3 weeks?
(I've started mild nutes)
I'm also using the mycocorrhaiz... stuff. I mix a couple litres and pour it through the pots a few times, I hope they grab on the rutz because they are not sitting in it. 

View attachment 100_0081.jpg


View attachment 100_0079.jpg


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## Gooch

I think you want to bury that starter cube under the hydroton completely it stays moist under the first layer or 2 for a good amount of time


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## sopappy

Gooch said:


> I think you want to bury that starter cube under the hydroton completely it stays moist under the first layer or 2 for a good amount of time



It amazes me how such simple things escape me. That's a great idea Gooch. 
I leave an inch like that to fill in when they stretch but I have since solved that problem (thanks to you and HP) and picking up 6500s today.

Incidentally, the hydroton pellets hold a lot of water when their surface gets beat up and scarred. These seedlings are only watered twice a day and I don't think it's hurting them.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> cut to the chase...
> With that small of a rez, you will need to change the water completely about every 4 days.



I was going to reset this morning (day 5) but they ate 100 ppms last night (their day) and drank a tad more than 2L.
pH sitting steady at 6.0 though so I added 4 drops pH down but no change.

reset this morning (26), HP, I'm listening 
5.9 1000


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## sopappy

I'll have to order those bulbs from the real Amazon. Lowes up here suck too, nothing; guffawed when I walked past the neon party bulbs, yellow, red, blue, all FULL, the green tray was empty.
At specialty electrical store, close with 4200 but will have to order the 5600.
I bet procurement is easier in Alaska.
I'm sticking them under the LED
I did pick up a cool furnace filtre with carbon in it. Traps pollen too.


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## Gooch

I have 10 hydro stores within a 1jride distance


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## sopappy

Gooch said:


> I have 10 hydro stores within a 1jride distance



cheese & rice, of course, I forgot about those guys


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## Hushpuppy

:doh: I bet they have a few.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> :doh: I bet they have a few.



Frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't but I moved them under the smaller LED anyways. I have to fake an ebb & flow thing until they hit 5 nodes (and I've harvested) then I'll move best 5 in to buckets.
I don't look forward to that, pulling those dam roots out takes forever.


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## blondlebanese

I've read this thread and am now some clearer about ppm. I think I'm becoming a cannabinerd.


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## sopappy

blondlebanese said:


> I've read this thread and am now some clearer about ppm. I think I'm becoming a cannabinerd.



I'd list them but you've seen the names... great bunch here. Take a bow, MP!


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## Hushpuppy

[email protected]#$&%! I tried to bow and hit my head on the keyboard :doh:


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## sopappy

Oh, look, there's one of them now, hey HP.

I'm plodding along okay here. They drink about 2L a day. I find I'm adding 2-5 mL of pH up daily, eating is still sporadic: nuthin' then 50 -60ppm
now day 4, reset tomorrow, they drank 2L last night, wolfed down double that, 120ppm and pH is still at 5.9, it didn't nose dive
If they eat another 120 or more tonight, do I still reset?


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## Kraven

Keep plugging along Pappy, this is a lifetime learning hobby, and your doing just fine.


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## sopappy

Kraven said:


> Keep plugging along Pappy, this is a lifetime learning hobby, and your doing just fine.



:farm:


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## Hushpuppy

Sometimes changing the rez is a judgment call. If you are focused on maximizing growth then change it. If you are needing to stretch your nutes, you can wait another day or two. I try to get the most out of my solutions but at the same time, I don't want to hurt the potential of the plants by trying to stretch the nutes to get every penny's worth. I would rather waste a little nutes than weaken the yield of the plants.


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## sopappy

nope, not trying to save money, I just didn't want to mess with that eating spurt 

when's the best time of day to change nutes, just before they go to bed or when they wake up?


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## Gooch

I never even gave that question a thought, I just change the res when i feel like it(time wise)but always no more then a week


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## sopappy

Gooch said:


> I never even gave that question a thought, I just change the res when i feel like it(time wise)but always no more then a week



I was thinking about how watering before sleep in dirt is not good but it's likely not the same at all in hydro.


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## Hushpuppy

Yeah in hydro, the plants are used to having the water environment so water change timing isn't an issue. I usually do it during the dark period as I don't water them during that time. That is the longest stretch of time so that I can be certain I get the pH adjusted and the solution fully mixed before they get watered. 

The longer "water roots" will hang in the water of the DWC type hydros, but the pH isn't as critical for them as they really only draw water. But the feeding roots that stay closer to the root ball need to have the pH correct before it hits the medium so that the medium doesn't get pulled out of range.


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## sopappy

Well, I just dd the change (when they woke up, force of habit)
Ph okay at 6.0 but I was too heavy on the nutes 1520 ppm.
but I'm leaving it overnight, I can dilute tomorrow morning


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Yeah in hydro, the plants are used to having the water environment so water change timing isn't an issue. I usually do it during the dark period as I don't water them during that time. That is the longest stretch of time so that I can be certain I get the pH adjusted and the solution fully mixed before they get watered.
> 
> The longer "water roots" will hang in the water of the DWC type hydros, but the pH isn't as critical for them as they really only draw water. But the feeding roots that stay closer to the root ball need to have the pH correct before it hits the medium so that the medium doesn't get pulled out of range.



Mine re-circulates which I'd think helps but I didn't know about the two types of roots. Water constantly running down some feeding roots from the drip can't be good. I just poke the hose end in to the pellets, I'll try not to pick on the same spot all the time.


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## sopappy

I had a small leak to muddy my reading but I don't think it was anywhere near a litre. 
She drank close to 3L *and* polished off 90 ppm.
I've topped up with 7.2  (see post re new stones :big grin
I took a shot with the flash after lights out.
That's the one plant surrounded by 6 in dirt. 
This is beginning week 9 and no amber, many clear trichromes yet, (must be 12 week flower) 

View attachment 1-100_0095.jpg


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## sopappy

Here's the line-up for the 5 buckets. They are working on node 4 so I'm digging out my HP cheat sheet. I may start a new thread to focus on the manifold training I really, really want to avoid that stretch this go round. 

View attachment 1-100_0093.jpg


View attachment 1-100_0094.jpg


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## sopappy

Nice stones these, Google bubblemac Cathie, I bought 5 stones and they got lost, re-shipped no charge, honest folks there. 
ALSO, perhaps a coincidence but my waiting vats always sat at 6.7 and now they are at 7.2 (city water, might be change of season or some such but I'd like to think it's the new stones.


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## Hushpuppy

A few things here: First, if the solution is well aerated, the water running down the feeding roots continuously will not hurt them a bit as long as the water is at good temps, good oxygen levels, and good pH. I had a bro that had his watering system running continuously to the point that there was clear water standing in every pot that he had plants in and they had no issues until his pH got off or he failed to keep his water temps correct. So no worries there.

second: the buds are coming along very nicely. They are steadily fattening up and looking good. I think the timing on them is skewed because of the nature of the way things happened AND the fact that they were being underfed during the first part of their life, but it looks like they are quickly making up for lost time. Don't get in a hurry or worry about the timing on harvesting those, just watch the buds and on occasion check the trichs for cloudiness. I think you are going to get very pleasantly surprised by how this one finishes. 

3rd: Nice "clay bubbles" in the new kids' pots. They look good, but a tad hungry. Have you begun feeding them yet? if not, do so at about 300ppm for the first 2 feedings, then bump to 450-500ppm for the next 2 feedings, then 600 after that.
Its not surprising that the sitting "vats" of water changed pH levels over time. How much and which way depends on what is in the initial water and how much aerating it is getting. With mine, I always get pH climb for the first couple days of aerating regardless of it is straight out of my well or after mixing up my solutions. The aeration causes my pH to rise. I will typically set my solution pH around 5.5 so that the aeration can bring it up to 5.9-6.0 and about half the time(when I am hurried or just sloppy), I miss it and have to go back and make a little adjustment.


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## sopappy

Nice to hear that about the buds. I keep forgetting she's one plant but it seems so slow, I thought she'd pull ahead of the soil. I guess it's that looooooong stem hahaha
You've got me excited about the finish though 


They're not drooping, HP or do you see something else?. I turned off the LED and sprayed them, almost brought them to their knees, they're strong!
Huge beads, I shook them all before the picture, they're just exhausted
I was at about 350 but happily on my way to 600 now
I'm topping at node 3 when I see the 5th


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## Hushpuppy

They just look a little too light in the new growth but that may be just the lighting or the nature of the strain. If you are already feeding then they should be fine either way.


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## Kraven

I agree HP, they need a shot of N to get them some color, and they are gonna need it since they are growing rapidly now, a 1/2 tsp of magnesium sulfate would not hurt either as they look like they are headed in that direction....imho. Peace they are looking good pappy, both the big girls and the babies....HP wont steer you wrong and he has a ton he can teach you...keep up the good work.


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## sopappy

HP, I socked it to 'em with about 1500 ppm and next day was as usual, down 2 qts and roughly 50 - 60 ppm. So, I'm assuming it's not too high. (changing every 4 days)

K-man, I used to use Epsom salts.... is that okay here?
How much in about a gallon of water?

My timing is off re the 12 vs 8 weeks...so I'm out!!! hahaha, 
Hide your eyes, Kraven! I'm already cannibalizing the oldest girl in the dirt.


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## sopappy

she's definitely a sativa.... weehoo.... giggle pot


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## Hushpuppy

The Epsom salt is exactly what Kraven was saying. It is Magnesium sulfate. I'm not sure on the amounts though. He said 1/2tsp but I'm not sure if that is per plant or per gallon of water. I would bet that is per plant.


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## sopappy

Hey HP, I let my guard down and wasn't checking the big girl, I looked and amber, more than I"dve liked. Anyways, she's hanging. I had 6 ind dirt wrapping up as well. I'm good here but am starting another manifold thread with the 10 seedlings.
I'm trying your method this time so keep an eye out


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## Hushpuppy

I will do that


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## sopappy

It's still a little wet but almost 4 oz from one plant but she took the room of 4 and I was getting a bout an oz a plant hahaha 
sure is fun trying though, next one will be better


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## Hushpuppy

Yeah that's pretty decent for the situation that occurred. Just wait till you get your methods down and see how much you begin pulling. Plus the flavors will get better over time. I have become a total bud connoisseur now. I will only smoke my bud with a wooden match so that I don't have to taste the fuel of a lighter.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Yeah that's pretty decent for the situation that occurred. Just wait till you get your methods down and see how much you begin pulling. Plus the flavors will get better over time. I have become a total bud connoisseur now. I will only smoke my bud with a wooden match so that I don't have to taste the fuel of a lighter.



Much better than I'd expected, two lousy starts now, pythium, male, but I think I've got a routine down now and I'm liking how things are progressing.
I forgot to ask in the other thread if I should clean them up further, ie, the bottom sets, I'll bury them close to that level, should I pluck them?

I use a vaporizer, my only complaint is the heat.
flavour, indeed, I never understood zippo lighters, yuck
you still get that sulphur stink when you strike a match, don't you?

They say you should experience 3 flavours, one going in, one inside, and one exhaling. I thought I did once.
I sure do like this Haze, sativa for sure, I worked on my train set off and on all day.

No cure at all I'm embarrassed to admit, maybe with 5 buckets I'll finally get a head of the game. Usually by the time my pot is cured, it's gone.


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## Hushpuppy

The good thing is that you are getting the bumps and learning important stuff now rather than having good luck at first and getting a false sense of security. Growing MJ will always find a way to throw you curve balls from time to time. Learning that you can overcome them with patience and diligence and still have a good harvest is a key to successful growing. It takes time to dial in your grow methods and grow space, and that is when it gets fun.

Don't get in too much hurry to do stuff to them. Its easy to overdo it. I have found that with many plants, if you strip them too much down low it causes them to grow up faster because all of the energy is going to the top. That is why many of us top and/or FIM so that the energy will get dispersed to lower branches to produce more bushy plants that create more bud sites.

The key to wooden matches is to let the sulfur head burn off before lighting the material. I hold the stick and allow the flame to move up it just a bit so there is no more sulfur to get drawn into the smoke.

If you like the Sativa high then you would love the Sweet Tooth and Pineapple Chunk from Barney's Farm. Both are pretty manageable growing plants that produce great tasting bud and a very clear headed high. Almost no body stone. I prefer a little stronger body stone with a little clear headed high. The combination seems to work the best for my back pain without being a couch-locking stone.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> The good thing is that you are getting the bumps and learning important stuff now rather than having good luck at first and getting a false sense of security. Growing MJ will always find a way to throw you curve balls from time to time. Learning that you can overcome them with patience and diligence and still have a good harvest is a key to successful growing. It takes time to dial in your grow methods and grow space, and that is when it gets fun.
> 
> Don't get in too much hurry to do stuff to them. Its easy to overdo it. I have found that with many plants, if you strip them too much down low it causes them to grow up faster because all of the energy is going to the top. That is why many of us top and/or FIM so that the energy will get dispersed to lower branches to produce more bushy plants that create more bud sites.
> 
> The key to wooden matches is to let the sulfur head burn off before lighting the material. I hold the stick and allow the flame to move up it just a bit so there is no more sulfur to get drawn into the smoke.
> 
> If you like the Sativa high then you would love the Sweet Tooth and Pineapple Chunk from Barney's Farm. Both are pretty manageable growing plants that produce great tasting bud and a very clear headed high. Almost no body stone. I prefer a little stronger body stone with a little clear headed high. The combination seems to work the best for my back pain without being a couch-locking stone.



:goodposting:
Great way to wrap up this thread, HP, nicely said.


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