# ok dudes  ebb and flow/flood



## parkingjoe (Jul 9, 2008)

ok dudes i fancy doing a 100 plant grow in my single cola style.

due to space issues ive decided ebb and flow is probably the most effective use of space.

i plan on using rockwool slabs and rockwool cubes.

i dont know the pros and cons of this sytem so before i set out on this venture i could do with some advice.

so knowing you lot ill say thanks in advance

pkj


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## Timmyjg6 (Jul 10, 2008)

YOU READ MY MIND!!!!!!!!!!
Alright bro. Let me know what size light you want to use and we can get this thing poppin. I have Auto CAD and i can draw something up really quickly..


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## MJ20 (Jul 10, 2008)

Reading the guide on E+F is a good start...100 Plant in EBB+Flow...that sounds expensive!...maybe you should look into NFT or something a little less cheaper than E+F?..100 plants means 100 buckets for each plant plus necessary accessories for each plant/bucket.


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## parkingjoe (Jul 10, 2008)

hi timmy i want to use 2 x 600w hps with digital ballasts in my larger flower room size is about 8ft wide 4ft deep and about 6.5ft height in centre sloping off either side to about 3.5ft.

hiya cs20 ill go read up on ebb and flow now man and i dont mean to use pots id rather use rockwool cubes onto rockwool slabs.

this is where i seem to have my best yields regarding hydro but its far too much messing about what with lines blocking up etc and with 100 x dripper lines feeding 100 x dripper stakes this just adds more probs to the equation.

ideally i want to build something rather than buy a system due to access into my grow rooms.

pkj.


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## Timmyjg6 (Jul 12, 2008)

OK bro, i gave it some thoght and the best i coulkd come up with is.

Grab one of THESE  77" X 41.5" X 7" trays. It should be able to hold 12 slabs comfterbley so thats 120 clones. And thats a little under 23 SQ feet so since youll have 2 X 600 W lights = 190,000 Lumens. Thats about 8,300 Lumens per Sq Foot. Which should be nice. Also i bet you could veg for just a little bit longer to fill up those holes and have a true SOG. Hows all this sound?


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## Timmyjg6 (Jul 12, 2008)

Not sure on how big rez youll need but i think you can figure all the rest out..


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## lyfr (Jul 12, 2008)

howdy pkj,  i've always( 5th grow now) done cubes/slabs, ebb&flow...so i feel i should have some words of wisdom for ya, like things to watch out for or something, but i havent had any problems with the RW itself.  typical steps to avoid algae which i'm sure your familiar with.  my first grow ( pre-MP) i only flooded once a day and still got decent results.  then i went for 3 @ 15 min., got better results....so the next grow i tried 5 @ 15 min. and didnt notice any diff from 3...so i went back to 3.  BTW, i feel silly tellin you this, like a student tryin to teach the professer .  I have found res. temp to be an important factor in keepin ph/ppm (ec 4 u ) stable,  and make sure you soak RW 24hrs..i use ph 5.5.  not sure if told you anything you didnt already know but felt like i should at least try.  I think you'll really like it...very easy, low maintenence!


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## TentFarmer (Jul 12, 2008)

I know that my 4x4" tray uses a 40g res.  I flood 4 times a day for 15 minutes.  

This system has treated me pretty well so far...


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## TentFarmer (Jul 12, 2008)

New thought make sure when you're putting your cubes in your tray, that there is plenty of room around them for the water to flow.  If not the nutrients might get "filtered" before they get to the back of the tray.


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## parkingjoe (Jul 12, 2008)

hi timmy the ebb and flow tray is way too large for where i need to place it as it has to go through an attic hatch measuring 800mm square


would work a treat imho though.

anyway back to me ole mucker lyfr professor only professor i am is pat pending:hubba:

nah ill take onboard what ya saying as you do the system and i havnt.

the main thing i need to know is is it just a trial and error to get the flooding and draining to how you require it to be.


do you just flood during light on.

does the flooding need to be increased as the plants get larger

anyway flood and drain is a little way off at the moment as ive now decided to grow 20 x larger plants for my next grow after the dripper system has finished and again using the same dripper system but 5 x plants per 1.3 metre rockwool slab.

thanks for all input dudes

pkj


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## POTUS (Jul 12, 2008)

Hey parkingjoe, using RW slabs in an ebb and flow defeats the high oxygen replacement goals of using the ebb and flow system.

I've used a Hydroton/River-rock 50-50 mix for years and had excellent results with it.

The goal of using ebb and flow is to maximize the oxygen to the roots. Using Hydroton/rock, each time the system drains, it pulls fresh oxygen all the way to the very bottom of the entire root mass and the roots feed from the residual moisture that is retained by the porous hydroton and that which clings to the river rock. This makes the water/nutrient/oxygen supply max out.

However, RW slabs retain much too much water after draining. The mass of roots within the rockwool won't benefit from the fill/drain cycle nearly as much as they could if the Hydroton/rock mix was used.

RW is good as a replacement for dirt grows where a hybrid system using hydro nutes is preferred. Massive feeders like Tomato plants, which use as much as a gallon of water per/day per/plant are excellent choices for using RW, but only as a dirt replacement where the RW is drenched each feeding in a container grow. The slabs would be spaced to provide just enough room per/plant for root growth and the slabs would dry out almost entirely each day by afternoon when they are filled again with only the amount that starts a little run-off.

If you'd like to build an ebb and flow that is exactly what will fit in your grow area and is designed specifically for MJ, let me know. I'd be glad to help you construct one that will fit your needs.

As for the feeding schedule; After years of working on this, I've come to the conclusion that with full grown plants in a high vegetative state of growth and using the Hydroton/rock mix, a one hour on/one hour off cycle works best to maximize both oxygen and nutrients/water to the plants.

The hour on/hour off cycle provides the most oxygen to the roots while also providing maximum water uptake and nutrient delivery to the plant.

The goal is to make the plants environment that which prevents the plant from having to do ANY work to gain either max oxygen, water or nutes.

The root system stays relatively small and shows that the plant is gaining what it needs without massive root growth to compensate for inadequacies in delivery.

I have slightly more than 25 years of experience using ebb and flow, drip and NFT systems and have designed many hundreds of units to custom preferences of the owners. I've also been able to monitor the plant growth in most of these systems I've built and have tweaked my own system until it has nothing left to improve.

Please let me know if I can be of help to you.

Stoney.


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## TentFarmer (Jul 12, 2008)

My thoughts exactly.  I was concerned that the rocks could dry out on me.  That was until I had to pull my first plant and the root ball filled every gap of space between those rocks and took DAYS to dry out.  Even then they only fully dried because I started to break them apart.

I'm a newb, this is my first system, and thus far I'm pleased with my results.  See if I hold that opinion when I get my dry weight.

The only downside ive found to the rock is disposal.  Guess if I saved it up for a few grows I could use it like mulch in the front yard.  That wouldn't be odd....


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## parkingjoe (Jul 12, 2008)

yo potus you have my undivided attention man.

didnt know you were so experienced in this field.

anyways when i intend to do ebb and flow ill be calling up your number man.


many thanks for such an informative reply

again many thanks potus you is da man

pkj


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## POTUS (Jul 12, 2008)

TentFarmer said:
			
		

> The only downside ive found to the rock is disposal. Guess if I saved it up for a few grows I could use it like mulch in the front yard. That wouldn't be odd....


 
I boil mine and reuse it. The boiling sterilizes the media and also gets all of the root debris off of it.

I have *lots* of wood around my house. The fire smells good and saves me money by reusing the hydroton and rock.


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## POTUS (Jul 12, 2008)

parkingjoe said:
			
		

> yo potus you have my undivided attention man.
> 
> didnt know you were so experienced in this field.
> 
> ...


 
Piece of cake man. Let me know when you're ready to build.


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## Timmyjg6 (Sep 27, 2008)

Im intrigued, Hay potus or lyfr. I got a question about Flood and drain. or maybe 2.
1. Whats moor important moor nutrient uptake, or moor oxygen uptake threw the roots? Now i know they are both needed but with rockwool you have saficient moisture for the plants roots to drink plenty. And with hydroton they get a chance to breath rather than drink... You see in my head i always thoght they would get bigger and plumpier if they had moor to drink... 


2. So in my head i thought Rockwool was the best medium on earth. What are your ideas on this guys???

Thanks yall L8r...


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## POTUS (Sep 27, 2008)

Timmyjg6 said:
			
		

> Im intrigued, Hay potus or lyfr. I got a question about Flood and drain. or maybe 2.
> 1. Whats moor important moor nutrient uptake, or moor oxygen uptake threw the roots? Now i know they are both needed but with rockwool you have saficient moisture for the plants roots to drink plenty. And with hydroton they get a chance to breath rather than drink... You see in my head i always thoght they would get bigger and plumpier if they had moor to drink... ...


The goal with growing any plant is to maximize your response to it's needs. Basically, it's light, nutrients, water and oxygen. With hydroponics, it's easier than with soil grows to maximize the oxygen. That's it's advantage. With an ebb and flow hydro system, it maximizes the oxygen by it's drain method. When the grow chamber drains, the natural action of the drain pulls fresh oxygen into the grow chamber to the very bottom. When using hydroton pellets, enough nutrient rich water is reserved within the media to feed the plants during their timed, maxed out oxygenation cycle. Then, the grow chamber fills and circulates, providing oxygen rich water and nutrients to the entire root mass. The cycling of this process pretty much maximizes anything you can do for a plant, given that you've adjusted the nutrient mix, water pH and frequency to meet the plants specific needs to their fullest. You can see by my description of the process that there really isn't a "most important" part of the process. The entire process has to be carefully balanced to provide the exact needs of the plant being grown and the stage of growth. The light spectrum and strength also makes a huge difference in how you balance this equation.




			
				Timmyjg6 said:
			
		

> 2. So in my head i thought Rockwool was the best medium on earth. What are your ideas on this guys?


Rockwool has it's advantages in certain cases. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## papabeach1 (Sep 28, 2008)

Hydroton/rock mix....  why I didnt think of that...  dudes  I'm IN..

potus, where was you when I need ya lol


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## Timmyjg6 (Sep 28, 2008)

Thanks Potus... So say i want to use a 3' x 3' flood and drain table and i want to grow fresh rooted clones in it... Should i just fill the howl 3'x3 tray with hydroton and place the 3" rockwool blocks evenly threw out? I was thinking i could fit anywhere from 20-25 3" RW blocked clones...  This sound right? Or do you have a better solution. You see i was planing to use rockwool like LYFR did... But if i can use hydroton instead it would be easier and cheaper to use in the long run plus i could have moor room for roots to grow and i hope they would grow a little faster than in the rockwool.


And let me see if i can answer my own question...
1. Rockwool is good for drip systems, and hydroton is good for flood and drain??


Thanks Potus. I am just trying to gain a little knowledge...


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## Timmyjg6 (Sep 28, 2008)

What if some one mixed shredded rockwool and hydroton and made a mixed media... How well you think it would work???


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## POTUS (Sep 28, 2008)

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> Hydroton/rock mix.... why I didnt think of that... dudes I'm IN..
> 
> potus, where was you when I need ya lol


I was right here. I guess you just didn't know it. hehe


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## POTUS (Sep 28, 2008)

Timmyjg6 said:
			
		

> What if some one mixed shredded rockwool and hydroton and made a mixed media... How well you think it would work???


The media you use depends on the conditions the plant needs or if necessary, the materials available. Shredding rockwool might not be such a good idea. The material might get sucked into your pump and harm it. It could become wrapped around the impeller and slow or stall the pump, causing catastrophic failure.


			
				Timmyjg6 said:
			
		

> Thanks Potus... So say i want to use a 3' x 3' flood and drain table and i want to grow fresh rooted clones in it... Should i just fill the howl 3'x3 tray with hydroton and place the 3" rockwool blocks evenly threw out? I was thinking i could fit anywhere from 20-25 3" RW blocked clones... This sound right? Or do you have a better solution. You see i was planing to use rockwool like LYFR did... But if i can use hydroton instead it would be easier and cheaper to use in the long run plus i could have moor room for roots to grow and i hope they would grow a little faster than in the rockwool. And let me see if i can answer my own question...
> 1. Rockwool is good for drip systems, and hydroton is good for flood and drain?? Thanks Potus. I am just trying to gain a little knowledge...


You need to calculate the area needed for each plants canopy. The plant seedlings would have to be spaced accordingly. I cut the top and bottom from a large coffee can with a opener that doesn't leave a sharp edge and then push it into the hydroton. Then scoop out the hydroton, put the rockwool cube into the tray and GENTLY lift the can out of the tray. This allows the hydroton to ease back into the roots and around the seedling without damaging the tender little roots or stem. Then just move it to the next location. In an ebb and flow system, you want the water to drain fast and completely. Rockwool won't allow that. Hydroton will. In drip systems, you want the drip to be wicked into the media evenly to provide even feeding to the roots. Rockwool is very good for this.

I would suggest that the next $80 you have, that you find and buy:

*Hydroponic Food Production 
by Dr. Howard M. Resh*

*Publisher: CRC Press
Pub. Date: December 2002
ISBN-13: 9780931231995
568pp
Edition Number: 6th*

Dr. Resh's book is considered by many in the field of Hydroponics to be "The Bible of Hydroponics".

The photos alone are worth the price of the book.

While reading this book, you'll have more ideas than Einstein on speed.

After completing the book, you'll fully understand the various forms of Hydroponics, how and why they work.

The 6th edition has many up to date references and methods.


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## Timmyjg6 (Sep 28, 2008)

Wow, thank you.... Ill check it out...


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