# Hermaphrodism



## Pot Belly (Jan 23, 2008)

Hermaphrodism. Caused by genetic or environmental? I can't quite get the picture in my head on how this hermi thing works.

I have read post after post many times that environmental things like irregular light cycles, too hot or too cold at the wrong time, too much pruning or LST manipulation, etc. will cause your plant to term hermi on you. Is this fact, or hearsay?

But then I've heard that seeds produced on a hermi plant are all genetically coded to produce herms in later generations. I believe this to be true due to the laws of genetics.

So here is what I don't understand..........

I take a perfectly good plant that doesn't have the 'hermi' trait, and take a clone from it. Then I stress the donor plant to the max with you name it. Will that plant turn hermi? Then if it does, what about the clone? Will it turn hermi if I give it the right conditions, and baby the heck out of it?

So really do all strains carry some sort of a recessed hermi trait? Is this the last line of defense to insure propagation of their kind when the plant feels threatened?


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## Puffin Afatty (Jan 23, 2008)

I think all pot plants have the ability to hermie.  if you take clones before stressing the plant, then stress the mother, the clone would not be a hermie.  If you take a clone, then stress it, the mother would not be a hermie.  

I think the genetic predisposition is passed along in the seeds, not necessarily the clones.  I've never noticed clones going hermie, if the mother plant hadnt.  Also, I've had plants go hermie due to stress, then in regeneratin, not be a hermie unless the same stress was applied.  So I think it follows that a stress hermie could be normal if the stress was avoided.


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## Hick (Jan 23, 2008)

> So really do all strains carry some sort of a recessed hermi trait? Is this the last line of defense to insure propagation of their kind when the plant feels threatened?


..you're on target with that statement. .. though, IMHO, not ALL strains and or plants have the ability/propensity to hermi. "I" am of the beliefe that there are "true" females, or female plants that are 100% female, and will not herm under stress or light manipulation, and can only be "reversed" with chemical manipulation. 
   Those are the only prospects, again, IMHO, that are suitable candidates for femminisation projects.


> I take a perfectly good plant that doesn't have the 'hermi' trait, and take a clone from it. Then I stress the donor plant to the max with you name it. Will that plant turn hermi? Then if it does, what about the clone? Will it turn hermi if I give it the right conditions, and baby the heck out of it?


  "NO"... not likely anyway. I do believe, that the greater majority of todays hybrid strains are susceptible to hermophradism when over stressed and/or light manipulation. The cuttings/clones will have the exact same propensity as the donor/mother. 
   BUT... with the a plant that herm's under stress, when that hermi' pollen is used to propegate seeds from another plant holding the recessive trait to hermi, the odds are more likely that that recessive trait will exhibit itself more often and more prominantly in the following generations.


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## Pot Belly (Jan 23, 2008)

Puffin Afatty said:
			
		

> I think all pot plants have the ability to hermie. if you take clones before stressing the plant, then stress the mother, the clone would not be a hermie. If you take a clone, then stress it, the mother would not be a hermie.
> 
> I've had plants go hermie due to stress, then in regeneratin, not be a hermie unless the same stress was applied. So I think it follows that a stress hermie could be normal if the stress was avoided.


 

A 'stress hermie'. That's an interesting way to relate. 

Thanks for your input on your observations, Puffin. Historical data is the only true way to determine certain patterns.




			
				Hick said:
			
		

> I do believe, that the greater majority of todays hybrid strains are susceptible to hermophradism when over stressed and/or light manipulation. The cuttings/clones will have the exact same propensity as the donor/mother.
> BUT... with the a plant that herm's under stress, when that hermi' pollen is used to propegate seeds from another plant holding the recessive trait to hermi, the odds are more likely that that recessive trait will exhibit itself more often and more prominantly in the following generations.


 
I am beginning to see some light here.........

So except for the rare 'pure female only' plant, most _all_ MJ plants do have the ability to herm. It's co-dependant on the environment _and_ the genetic code. The plant strength to resist herming _and _varying environmental conditions will go from one end of the scale to the other based on the plant's genetic code. This combination is so vast, it's really not definable, is it? 

It's like someone born with a congenital heart defect. It's waiting to reveal itself under a certain threshold of stress. Everything's fine until the final minutes of the basketball game and he exerts that final push and the defect can't hold up anymore, and reveals itself by failing. The player passes out on the floor from heart failure. I have seen this happen many times.

The plants that hermi with mild stress are the ones that do not need to be included in breeding stock. Or any plants that hermi at all for that matter.

Like certain breeds of dogs that are susceptible to hip dysplasia, it is not responsible breeding to knowingly produce offspring from dogs showing that particular trait.

In all experience, what is the most common environmental condition that causes a plant to hermi? Light interruption during the dark cycle?


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## Puffin Afatty (Jan 23, 2008)

_I think_ the most common form of stress is temperature, both hot and cold.  I've never interrupted the dark cycle to cause a hermie.  I have heard of it.

_I think_ the pot plant is evolving rapidly with all the human intervention, but some strains are more mold resistant, some are more mite resistant, and some are more hermie resistant.  Perhaps there will be a day when we have true _seedless_ weed, that is, like the navel orange, no seeds are grown by females, and all plants are females.

this all makes sense to me, some pot naturally grows in high cold places, some grows in low hot places.   some grows where it is dry some where it is humid.   

this is soooo much fun, I sometimes agree it must be illegal.  :rofl:


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## Puffin Afatty (Jan 23, 2008)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> _Like certain breeds of dogs that are susceptible to hip dysplasia, it is not responsible breeding to knowingly produce offspring from dogs showing that particular trait._
> 
> I have to agree about the irresponsibility of those producing feminized seeds with the hermie method.  Also, I see a annoying trend at re-selling others strains and simply renaming them.  I'm all for diversity, but the dilution of the genetics is alarming.:hubba:
> 
> it's almost like I am arguing for cannabis racism, eh? :rofl:


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## umbra (Jan 23, 2008)

perhaps one of the closest breeding comparison is with dogs. History shows that all dogs came from one species. That the inbreeding for specific traits really didn't devlop until 19th century. now look at all the different varieties. and if you look closer at individual breeds, many of developed hip problems, or breathing problems, or blindness, ect. well i think that this can also be said of mj. 30 years ago there weren't many indoor strains. they were all outdoor strains. thru manipulation of certain desired traits new breeds have been developed and stabilized, all kinds of hybirds are developed all the time. who is to know what all of these effects are a large scale over time. moreover, i believe whether enviromentally induced or chemically induced it is a result of a particular plant hormone, just like flowering. In human, hormonal manipulation can cause liver damage, cardiovascualr damage, cancer, male traits, female traits. In can always show increased muscle size and strength, increased aggression, anti aging effects,ect.

these traits never really seemed to much of a problem with well established landrace varieties. Without a doubt, mj primary focus is to reproduce and it will do what evr it can to do so, including changing it's sex.


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## Hick (Jan 23, 2008)

Puffin Afatty said:
			
		

> _I think_ the most common form of stress is temperature, both hot and cold.  I've never interrupted the dark cycle to cause a hermie.  I have heard of it.


..but I've never had a plant hermie over temperature flucuation. Irregular light cycles or interruption of the dark cycle, would be ny guess, as to the "most common" form of stress  induced hermophradism in pot plants.

.


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## jb247 (Jan 23, 2008)

First off, thank you all for your input on this subject. I don't have the experience necessary to make comments on this, but I find the whole idea intreging. It would be an interesting experiment, trying to find out exactly what causes hermi's, but I simply don't have the room to do such experimentation...

Thanks for a very interesting discussion...

Peace...j.b.


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## Pot Belly (Jan 25, 2008)

I'm not going to let this hermi thing go yet......:

What has experience shown on tying plants down, or LST, and that triggering a plant to throw out a nanner?


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## Hick (Jan 25, 2008)

IMO.. it is dependant on the propensity of the particular plant/pheno. BUT.. "I" have never had an issue with 'conscientousley well bred' plants. That is.. strains that have been selectively bred "away" from the hermie tendency. 
  Not to say that you won't hace a recessive trait, exhibit itself from time to time.


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## Mutt (Jan 25, 2008)

Hick said:
			
		

> ..you're on target with that statement. .. though, IMHO, not ALL strains and or plants have the ability/propensity to hermi. "I" am of the beliefe that there are "true" females, or female plants that are 100% female, and will not herm under stress or light manipulation, and can only be "reversed" with chemical manipulation.
> Those are the only prospects, again, IMHO, that are suitable candidates for femminisation projects.


 
 
hmmm... Interesting outlook right there.
In nature, Hermie was mainly a survival trigger. IMO. I would almost think that every one would have that gene no matter how recessive. Had to start somewhere. 
WOW this brings on a whole new theory. Twisting my head up. Well Natural Catastrophie such as Volcano Ash blocking out the sun. Or Some natural Light inceident would cause light manipulation in nature. Or one year too many females and not enough females..who knows.... So no telling where the "adaptive" trait to herm. came from. 
If there was a 100% true female...I think it would been lost loong ago...unless you find some rare patch of landrace in the middle of nowhere untouched by man....3000 miles past BFE 
I'm gonna think on this one Hick...good reply dude. Off to google.

On the LST pruning and topping...each strain will have its level of stress it can handle...just like phenos that are nutrient hungry and others that are hyper sensitive. I just follow the common rule...no more than 1/3 the plants mass...your pretty much safe. IMHO


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## Pot Belly (Jan 25, 2008)

OK, great input so far.  It's known that some plants will hermi with a lower tolerance (to change), or just hermi anyway during flower.  It's also well understood that hermis at any rate would not be used as breeding stock.  So that would usually be the end of it.  But I have to know more, so here's a scenerio to ponder..........

Take two seeds from the same non-hermi plant and bud.  One seed matures into a beautiful female flowering plant with no male flowers at all.  The other one exhibits the hermi trait during the first few weeks of flower.  Would this hermi plant condition be considered as a 'phenotype'?  Isn't that what a phenotype is?  A particular trait on a particular plant that is different on the same species or strain?


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## Mutt (Jan 25, 2008)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> OK, great input so far. It's known that some plants will hermi with a lower tolerance (to change), or just hermi anyway during flower. It's also well understood that hermis at any rate would not be used as breeding stock. So that would usually be the end of it. But I have to know more, so here's a scenerio to ponder..........
> 
> Take two seeds from the same non-hermi plant and bud. One seed matures into a beautiful female flowering plant with no male flowers at all. The other one exhibits the hermi trait during the first few weeks of flower. Would this hermi plant condition be considered as a 'phenotype'? Isn't that what a phenotype is? A particular trait on a particular plant that is different on the same species or strain?


 
It would depedns on how far back the recessive trait goes. The one pheno may have more of a tendancy to show hermaphrodism. (poor sp..sorta forked here). Just becuase that one pheno repressed that trait doesn't mean it would not show up....why many back cross. To find the recessive trait. As soon as it pops most breeders chuck the pheno or let public know. 

Edit:
Now just realized this might somewhat support Hicks beleif now...been thinkin on this one. Equitorial strains have genotype hermaphrodite traits..but this would not hold true to every strain...but because of the massive hybrid crossing that has occurred over the who knows how much time...to find a 100% female would be difficult. But the chance of 100% fem and 100%m is there. Good call Hick..I'm liking this debate.


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## Hick (Jan 26, 2008)

> Take two seeds from the same non-hermi plant and bud. One seed matures into a beautiful female flowering plant with no male flowers at all. The other one exhibits the hermi trait during the first few weeks of flower. Would this hermi plant condition be considered as a 'phenotype'? Isn't that what a phenotype is? A particular trait on a particular plant that is different on the same species or strain?


  If we're only talking about "*2*" seeds, and one hermi'd, "I" would consider that particular cross to be highly susceptable to hermophradism. (50%). That says to me, that at least one of the parents has an exceptionally high propensity to hermi. And unless I was desperate to keep those genetics preserved for a pretty good reason, wouldn't consider either, a "good" breeding candidate. NOW, grow out 100, or a thousand seeds, and only "one" exhibits hermophradism, and you're in business. 
  The "Breeders", should "IMHO, typically have the room/facility to accomodate hundreds of both male and female plants to choose the "best" phenotypes, to mate with the best pheno's. 
"A cross between two hybrids will produce a wide range of phenotypes, especially if the hybrid grandparents are widely unrelated. Segregating generations are where the breeder goes to work, sorting through hundreds of plants to find the ones that meet the goal of the program. Most seeds on the market today are segregating generations."
Medels P square... thats a great link for getting a basic understanding of genetics, but don't stop there, follow some of the links provided there.


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## Mutt (Jan 26, 2008)

Yep Hick...think your beleif of 100% true fems is right on base. 
See chart.


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## Pot Belly (Jan 26, 2008)

Punnett squares, dominant, recessive alleles, homozygous, heterozygous genes, etc......:hairpull:  I should have known!  :doh: 

Need hundreds of plants, males and females, to select from and eliminate all the undesirable traits.  Would require years of dedicated work and research to stabilize desirable traits, and eleiminate undesirable ones.  I see the possibilities and the fun!  Too bad this plant is not allowed to grow freely.

Getting back to our little hermi scenerio..............

Has anyone done any playing around with a known plant that tends to hermi, cloned test batches, and tried to determine what actually triggers the hermi spring from these rooted clones?

Again - we know a hermi plant is 'junk'.  I just want to establish in real life what triggers her to reveal male gender.


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## Hick (Jan 26, 2008)

I've never messed w/ them PB. I had a horrific experience with hermi's "one" time, and I'm ruined..


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## umbra (Jan 26, 2008)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> Punnett squares, dominant, recessive alleles, homozygous, heterozygous genes, etc......:hairpull: I should have known! :doh:
> 
> Need hundreds of plants, males and females, to select from and eliminate all the undesirable traits. Would require years of dedicated work and research to stabilize desirable traits, and eleiminate undesirable ones. I see the possibilities and the fun! Too bad this plant is not allowed to grow freely.
> 
> ...


 
perhaps I cheated but i used gibberillic acid. Hermi almost everytime


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## Pot Belly (Jan 30, 2008)

Thanks for all the input everyone.  

Well, my interest in this subject sparked when a female plant of mine threw out a few male flowers.  I was panicing earlier, but with time, have found these male flowers only came out on a few branches, and at at a certain node count from the ends, and have since stopped producing males flowers into the flower.  I picked off about 15 flowers, BTW.  

It's like the plant felt a certain stress in its life, and threw out a self defense trick.  Then when everything settles out, and stabilizes, the plant gets happy again and quits making male flowers.  I'm pretty sure the trigger is related to light.  Now there are no more male flowers growing.  This is fascinating!

So anyway, I will be trying different scenerios with rooted cuttings off this plant, and see if I can't define what causes a certain plant to herm.

Is it related to light?  Excessive trimming, topping, etc...

I'll be adding to this thread as this thing progresses.


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## Puffin Afatty (Jan 30, 2008)

I had stressed hermies.  heater failed and grow got very cold one time, WW plants hermied.  Another time an air conditioner failed, grow was over 100* and same WW plants hermied.  Possible these plants had a propensity to hermie, but they didnt go hermie in any of 8 other generations that didnt have a heating/cooling issue.  I grew out some of the hermied seeds, the plants were sprayed with reverse in weeks 1,2 and 3, so I got no seeds in the harvest.

I grew out a couple seeds without using reverse and saw a couple male flowers but pinched em off as soon as they formed, but before they opened.  Had almost no seeds on those, and the few I found were undeveloped.

I then tooks some clones of the hermied plants and the clones were normal, no seeds for 3 generations.  

I then took the clones and subjected them to a very hot room for 3 days and they hermied too when flowered. I sprayed em with reverse and got no seeds.   

then I just quit messing with hermies altogether.  seems they were not much of an issue anymore since reverse took care of the seeds.

good luck!!!


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## Pot Belly (Jan 30, 2008)

Hey Puffin - interesting info there!  I'm glad I didn't toss this one.  I was disappointed at first, now it's a chance to learn something about this plant.

Most would toss a hermi or one that would have the tendancy to do so.  I want to play mad scientist for a bit.  If I can define the trigger, eliminate it, and keep this plant a flowering female, she (it) will suit my needs good enough.  I'll keep this clone line for future cuttings.  If it keeps throwing out male flowers, obviously it will end up in the hashpile.

This plant will not be any breeding stock, and any seeds produced will get microwaved and tossed.


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## Pot Belly (Feb 5, 2008)

OK  - Mad scientist Pot Belly here with an interesting update:

The one in flower that showed some staminate (male) flowers hasn't grown any more males as of yet.  I made a thorough search, and pulled every male off.  Like I said before, there were only a few.   She's loading with pistils.

A clone off her that rooted, and went into flower showed a few male flowers exactly at the same time in flower, and the same locations.  Also about the same ratio to plant size.  Like I did before, I let the male flowers get bigger, and pulled them off before they opened up.  It's been two weeks, and I don't see any more male flowers yet on the clone.  She is showing exact patterns as mom.

There is a problem with this test though: the dark cycle was interrupted several times for me to do some work on the box:hairpull: ........So we still may be induced to staminate by interuption of light cycle.  One test at a time, right?

This clone was not cut or pruned before flower.  Sooooo..... The test does show that pruning this plant while vegging was most likely NOT the cause (or stress) to reveal staminate flowers.:aok:


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## THCPezDispenser (Feb 11, 2008)

Can I get one clarification here about the seeds from hermies.  If a plant, which under optimial conditions would not hermie, but due to environment does hermie and produces self-pollenated seeds, what type of plants will these seeds produce?  From my basic understanding of genetics, this stress-induced situation shouldn't rewrite the genetic code of the mother and pass this modified genetic code to it's offspring, would it?  The resulting genetics should be similar to the mother, which would be a plant that does not hermie under optimal conditions?  But this doesn't seem to be what I have read, which is that hermie plants produce hermie seeds?  Just seems to me like the analogy is if I have fair skin, I have a tendency to sunburn.  If I do get sunburned, obviously my children shouldn't be born with a sunburn?


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## Pot Belly (Feb 11, 2008)

THCPezDispenser said:
			
		

> Just seems to me like the analogy is if I have fair skin, I have a tendency to sunburn. If I do get sunburned, obviously my children shouldn't be born with a sunburn?


 
Yes, but your children would have the genetic code to burn when under the sun - exactly like you do.  Unless you or your wife has some dark skinned blood to pass on to your offspring.  There's always a chance.

You are most likely correct in your thought THCPez.  My hermi plants that I have been playing with have not shown any more male flowers since they first appeared in the first week and 1/2 of flower.  And they are getting optimal conditions ATM.


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## Hick (Feb 11, 2008)

Hermies procreate hermies..
useing hermie induced/pollinated seeds, is essentially "selectively" breeding _for_ that trait.


> Just seems to me like the analogy is if I have fair skin, I have a tendency to sunburn. If I do get sunburned, obviously my children shouldn't be born with a sunburn?


... an analogy TOTALLY out of context. 
..closer, would be, "If you had a child with your also "fair skinned" sister.".. the offspring would contain a _high propensity/susceptibility_ to sunburm...among other mutations


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## THCPezDispenser (Feb 11, 2008)

Hick said:
			
		

> Hermies procreate hermies..
> useing hermie induced/pollinated seeds, is essentially "selectively" breeding _for_ that trait.


 
Ok, so just so I understand this in context of my example (not my analogy):

1) I have a beautiful female.  I treat her with optimal conditions, she flowers magnificently, and I use gibberic acid to make a male flower, self pollenate the plant and collect seeds.

2) Reverse back in time.  Same exact female, but because of a string of winter storms and power outages, the flowering light cycles screw up and it turns hermie.  It self-seeds.

This is my specific question - Are the seeds collected in example 1 and 2 the same genetic makeup, or has the fact that in situation #2 the plant hermied changed the genetic information passed to the seeds?




			
				Hick said:
			
		

> ... an analogy TOTALLY out of context.
> ..closer, would be, "If you had a child with your also "fair skinned" sister.".. the offspring would contain a _high propensity/susceptibility_ to sunburm...among other mutations


 
Fair enough, but if that kid stays out of the sun, they still won't burn I guess is my point.  Your point is that if they do hit the sun, they'll probably get a worse burn than I ever would.

Tendency to hermie with mangled light schedule = fair skin
Actually turning into a hermie because of lighting irregularities = sunburn

Of course, your version of the analogy also depends on how marijuana handles self pollenation.  Some plants do it quite successfully to the point of essentially creating clone seeds, on the other extreme plants such as apple trees are not even capable of self pollenation even though they have male and female flowers.


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## THCPezDispenser (Feb 11, 2008)

Something I found that this thread readers may find interesting:



> 100% Female Seeds
> 
> As some of you may know I've been a regular in the chat room for a while and I spend a large amount of time in there. I have had the extreme pleasure of speaking to Mr. XX over the last few nights for many hours and have gotten to know him quite well via email and the chat. He has confided in me and in a few others about his process for coming up with 100 percent female seeds.
> 
> ...


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## Puffin Afatty (Feb 11, 2008)

very, very interesting.  I had read of this technique before.

to sum it up,  the XX female wont hermie at all.  we may have had xx females and just never knew it. 

Very cool info.  Thanks again THCPezDispenser!!


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## Hick (Feb 11, 2008)

> If he does this and no hermaphrodites come up, he has found a 100% XX female that can't turn hermaphrodite naturally.


  That is the "exact" procedure that I was taught was the _only_ correct procedure for making femminised seeds.
 "Find a _TRUE _ female, that won't hermie under stress, _chemically_ reverse her for staminate flowers, use THAT pollen to fertilize another clone of the "true" fem'."
Thak you Pez. 
   It tends confirms my suspicion, that all of this "light stressed" hermie pollinations, ARE onlly serving to further pollute the gene pool with the hermophradite genetics.


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## trillions of atoms (Feb 11, 2008)

you can mist them everyday and that kills any viable pollen.....and its as cheep as a mister bottle and free from there on. im sure picking branches off after misting will help to but id thought id try and help n throw that in as an idea for ppl on a budget. goodluck!


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## THCPezDispenser (Feb 11, 2008)

Hick said:
			
		

> "Find a _TRUE _female, that won't hermie under stress, _chemically_ reverse her for staminate flowers, use THAT pollen to fertilize another clone of the "true" fem'."


 
So, who sells REAL feminized seeds?  If we agree to the logic of the feminization process above, a bottle of gibberellic acid and a pack of real feminized seeds should be the only thing you would need to be able to grow females from seeds the rest of your life.  The heavy lifting of finding a true female would already be done for us with true feminized seeds, we just grow one of these females and repeat the process, making your own feminized seeds.

Anybody out there have any practical experience with gibberellic acid, is it difficult to use?  Is it expensive?


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## Pot Belly (Feb 11, 2008)

What interesting info THCPez.  I fully understand what is happening with the evolution of this plant.  And it _is_ evolving as we speak, which makes it more important to weed out the weed, and maintain good breeding practices by promoting genetics that don't tend to hermaphrodite.

Maybe we don't need to be so gentle with them and afraid they'll herm.  Maybe we're afraid of the truth that we've got a crappy hermi pheno!   

Seriously though, for the preservation of the species, responsible practices should be of utmost concern when breeding.  Female plants should be tested for true xx by stressing.  (If this article is indeed to be factual information)This true female should be used for breeding, IMO.  Any plants showing staminate flowers need to be not used for making seeds at all.

Now for the million dollar question:  Is there a true male?  One that wouldn't herm and throw out  pistillate flowers when under the same flowering stress?

If so, would the seeds from these two true sex parents not have the propensity to herm?


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## Hick (Feb 12, 2008)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> What interesting info THCPez.  I fully understand what is happening with the evolution of this plant.  And it _is_ evolving as we speak, which makes it more important to weed out the weed, and maintain good breeding practices by promoting genetics that don't tend to hermaphrodite.
> 
> Maybe we don't need to be so gentle with them and afraid they'll herm.  Maybe we're afraid of the truth that we've got a crappy hermi pheno!
> 
> ...



Man, you grasped that concept, as quickly as anyone I've seen  . THANKS!
..there has been a faction around for sometime, that has preached "consiencious" breeding. Unfortunately, not everyone agrees with it.  The attraction of the _*$$$$$*_ is too great.


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## Mutt (Feb 12, 2008)

I was just reading an article at 'nother site. It dealt with males with few pistils. They were saying how this was a good canidate breeding. (Keep in mind extremely knowledgable person said this) I did not agree as they said "its not a hermie" but i totally disagreed (in my own mind) that ANY time a plant shows both sexes is when it is a hermie...just depends on the male chromosome dominance.


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## Puffin Afatty (Feb 12, 2008)

it's a shame that the public gene pool is polluted.  some folks are just about the $$, dont care how they get it, and cheat, lie, steal.  Being a illegal activity, growers are not protected here.  It is the same progression I saw in the 60's and 70's when getting high went mainstream. 

$$$$ is the problem, always will be, until it's legal and there is no incentive to go underground the commercial growers will continue to corrupt the weed, it's production and distribution. 

punk powder dealers adulterate their products to make $$$,  punk smoke dealers kif their weed before selling it, add sticks and stones and extra seeds, all to get a little extra for themselves.  ALAS, 'tis the world we have to work with.  Good Luck to all of you!!!


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## Hick (Feb 12, 2008)

Mutt said:
			
		

> I was just reading an article at 'nother site. It dealt with males with few pistils. They were saying how this was a good canidate breeding. (Keep in mind extremely knowledgable person said this) I did not agree as they said "its not a hermie" but i totally disagreed (in my own mind) that ANY time a plant shows both sexes is when it is a hermie...just depends on the male chromosome dominance.



...?? It isn't a hermie??... :hitchair:
I gotta' know, "what" is it??


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## THCPezDispenser (Feb 12, 2008)

THCPezDispenser said:
			
		

> 1) I have a beautiful female. I treat her with optimal conditions, she flowers magnificently, and I use gibberellic acid to make a male flower, self pollenate the plant and collect seeds.
> 
> 2) Reverse back in time. Same exact female, but because of a string of winter storms and power outages, the flowering light cycles screw up and it turns hermie. It self-seeds.
> 
> This is my specific question - Are the seeds collected in example 1 and 2 the same genetic makeup, or has the fact that in situation #2 the plant hermied changed the genetic information passed to the seeds?


 
Sorry to keep at this, but does anyone have an opinion on this little scenario?  I see that the core of the thread is about preserving and improving the genetics of MJ, this question is me trying to understand how this plant works, not to advocate the use of hermies in breeding!  I understand that in #1 the plant still has a hermie tendency.  

My take is that the seeds produced in scenario 1 and scenario 2 are no different.  The fact that it was stressed into showing it's hermie trait will not affect the genetic heritage it passes to the seeds.  In other words, both sets of seeds would have the hermie traits, and with the same "intensity".


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## Pot Belly (Feb 12, 2008)

THCPezDispenser said:
			
		

> Sorry to keep at this, but does anyone have an opinion on this little scenario? I see that the core of the thread is about preserving and improving the genetics of MJ, this question is me trying to understand how this plant works, not to advocate the use of hermies in breeding! I understand that in #1 the plant still has a hermie tendency.
> 
> My take is that the seeds produced in scenario 1 and scenario 2 are no different. The fact that it was stressed into showing it's hermie trait will not affect the genetic heritage it passes to the seeds. In other words, both sets of seeds would have the hermie traits, and with the same "intensity".


 
Hey Pez - This thread's core started out trying to understand about the nature of hermaphrodism in this plant. It sorta evolved into stressing about responsible breeding. Kinda goes hand in hand - so your right on with the thread. Let's keep nailing this thing down.

Yes, the same plant during both scenerios will produce seeds that carry the hermie trait. If the plant produces staminate (male) flowers at any time during flower, irregardless of amount of light stress, making a male flower artificially with gibberilic acid on the same plant (that can already grow staminate flowers) creates a seed that has the same (hermie) traits. 

I think the hang-up or confusion on hermaphrodism is the perspective of the grower. Most seem to think that a plant turns hermie with certain stress. Look at it this way: It's a hermie whether it shows staminate flowers or not, because it's predetermined genetically to grow staminate flowers under the "right" conditions.

Notice that *Hick *mentioned to use a sister clone of the XX plant to receive the pollen created by the gibberilic acid and not self-seeding the plant.  I wonder if the true XX female plant induced to "hermi" would procreate hermi seeds if it self pollenated.  That is one for the experienced.


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## Elephant Man (Feb 12, 2008)

Some really good thoughts bouncing around...here's a few more...

I grow sativas from seed soz I need my males, can't offer much help on the feminizing thing. I hassle my plants and have had my share of herms which is more the norm for sativas...as I understand it. Equatorial sativas are the worst but they are the best to smoke and they have taught me alot. I have used light cycles, hot or ph wacked mediums, temps and lack of ventilation, etc. in order to choose best possible mates. I have even seen one herm from a high dose of N really late in flower, but as was mentioned already these were 'mild' herms and only tossed 'nanners' on one axial cola most times. Another interesting thing, and as usual my experience is with pretty much sativas only, is as I understand it, nearly all will herm if let go too long in flowering. This is commonly done in sativas as they may have several 'windows' for harvesting, anyway, something to think about for you potential breeders out there.

I do not use 'herms' for seedmaking but I don't fear them and they smoke just fine. One has to understand (like mutt said) it is an emergency mechanism in our special plant, it is probably the reason mj has survived man's attempts at eradicating it. I have 'respect' for them...err...anyway, I don't get upset over them. Also, IMO, marijuana would prefer to breed naturally (who wouldn't?) soz not every herm is a dead end road, but surely a dusty one. As I understand it the 'hermie trait' can skip a generation, but if it came down to strain preservation (landrace), I could see myself getting dirty. While on the topic of 'good breeding practices' always disclose any possible 'hermie action' before handing out seeds.

Good thread keep it up.


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## THCPezDispenser (Feb 12, 2008)

Thanks Pot Belly.  I think we are clear.  By the way, I just happened across today a 1 gram packet of gibberellic acid for 7 bucks.  I picked it up to experiment with it a little bit later on :hubba:


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## Mutt (Feb 13, 2008)

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> While on the topic of 'good breeding practices' always disclose any possible 'hermie action' before handing out seeds.


:yeahthat: :goodposting:


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## THCPezDispenser (Mar 4, 2008)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> Now for the million dollar question: Is there a true male? One that wouldn't herm and throw out pistillate flowers when under the same flowering stress?
> 
> If so, would the seeds from these two true sex parents not have the propensity to herm?


 
More thoughts on this, I think it is a great subject 

I think this would depend on if the male hermie trait is the same mechanism as the female one, a shared characteristic across the sexes.  Assuming it is, you would have a pure line with no hermies.  However, in the context of the quest for feminized seeds, you still require chemical manipulation of the female to create "female" pollen.  The benefit is that you don't have to stress your potential mothers to weed out the hermies, you can skip that step all together.


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## Pot Belly (Mar 19, 2008)

Well an update on the mad scientist experiment and the hermie.  She was doing very good and not throwing out any visual staminate flowers until a thorough inspection showed a big fat batch of those male flowers.  :shocked: They were under a big fat flowering bud hidden.  A little push with my finger and a cloud of pollen spewed from the male cluster.

That whole bud is seeded - infected by her or 'its' own male product.  Ugghhh!  It really is a feeling of invasion when one of your girls pops out a male cluster.  And this was an experiment on a known hermie mother. 

OK - I get it.  I'm done with figuring out hermies.  But I had to do it.....:ignore:   I finally understand what the deal is with them.   They are outta here.  Audios!

Thanks to all who helped and added input on this thread.  I hope it helped some understand about hermies and how or what they are.

PB


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