# no cigs in bars/restraunts but pot ok.



## cookie (Mar 27, 2008)

www.forbes.com/markets/feeds/afx/2008/03/27/afx4821478.html

i thought this was cool. apparently as long as its not mixed with tobacco, mj is still a go... why cant my country be chill like holland?​


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## dmack (Mar 27, 2008)

I  must agree with the cig situation. I hate cigs and never saw the point. Its just a way to make money and kill. If America took some ideas from oversea countries maybe we wouldnt be so ignorant. Now when i say we i say our leaders because if people with straight heads on there shoulders that where in office just to make peace and happiness then life would be much better my friends. Sorry for the rant. Marijuana was widespread in US befor they saw that they couldnt make a quick buck of of it because you cannot patent marijuana. All for money MP. And MJ in not legalized because the drug/pill corporation would fall in Marijuanas shadow because MJ cures alot more with less side affects unlike pills which cause more problems then your trying to cure when you slip it into your mouth. Peace and love to all


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## Dubbaman (Mar 27, 2008)

I still say its ignorant that you cant smoke in a bar the restaurant i can hang with but lets get real here smoking and drinking have been hand and hand for many many moons. and i know quite a few "non-smokers" that will light up faster when they are tipsy but will say they never light up a butt when they arnt out to the bar. its ludicrous to think that people refuse to fight against all the restrictions that have been set in place because of the push to make smoking look like crap. Its a choice if you want to smoke or not and you should be allowed to make that choice where ever you are in/out doors doesn't matter i am of age and i paid the (outrageous) tax on the pack of smokes so let me enjoy them where i please, after all i cant stand health food so what do i do i don't go and be around health food shops , i don't raise the tax on it and then tell you you can only eat it in designated areas and not around others who are trying to enjoy their mad cow flambé.


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## dmack (Mar 27, 2008)

2400 deaths per year are linked to second hand smoke

Cigarette smoking is perhaps the most devastating preventable cause of disease and premature death. Approximately 60,000,000 Americans smoke...including 18 percent of adolescents age 12-17. In fact, most new smokers are teenagers, particularly girls.

Tobacco use causes more deaths each year in the United States than AIDS, alcohol, cocaine, heroine, homicide, suicide and motor vehicle crashes combined?

Smoking is a major risk factor for heart disease, lung cancer and chronic lung diseases-all leading causes of death?

Each day, 6,000 persons younger than age 18 try their first cigarette, and more than 3,000 of them become daily smokers?  One thousand of these young people will die of smoking-related causes.

Direct medical care costs from smoking total at least $50 billion each year?


P.S
Nothing towards people who smoke but IMO i wouldn't want to be around it either. Im not trying to play mom or dad just worried about everyone who was sucked into the ads and commercials of death


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## cookie (Mar 27, 2008)

im aware of all the bad facts of smoking. i'll even agree they are completely true. but im not really inclined to quit, mainly because since i started on my amazing 2-pack-a-day habit ive lost almost 60lbs. i can understand not smoking in restraunts because while i may not have a problem smoking and eating i know other people dont always like it... but i should be allowed to smoke in bars if i want to damn it! luckily where i live the law says that if a certain percent of total sales is from alcohol, you can smoke. cant remember what percent, but it means i can still go to the bar and get trashed and chain  smoke. as long as i can do that im fine. 

and a running joke with me and my guys is that non-smokers are just jealous because they dont know how they're gonna die.


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## dmack (Mar 27, 2008)

cookie said:
			
		

> and a running joke with me and my guys is that non-smokers are just jealous because they dont know how they're gonna die.


 Sorry cookie but dont agree. The government made all those things to make money and all that does is hurt people. Have respect for your body. I know we all die but in teh coming years youll see what im saying and hopefully will think of this thread when all the lies and tales get dropped onto the floor for all to see when our country and leaders break down. Ill keep my opinions to myself about your so called death solutions.:holysheep:


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## cookie (Mar 27, 2008)

i never said it was a good joke. lol. in fact, its kind of awful. and i know. trust me. i know.


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## Dubbaman (Mar 27, 2008)

Heres the real culprits behind the death in cigs not the tobacco or the industry its the additives that are used to cure, process, package, and  preserve the product that are more contributory to the related premature deaths that you speak of. Cigarette smoke contains over 3,000 chemicals: Most of them are rather nasty such as:

Nicotine - insecticide and used in cockroach and other insect killing products 
Formaldehyde &#8211; used as a fluid to embalm dead bodies 
Hydrogen cyanide &#8211; rat poison 
Acetone &#8211; dissolves certain substances and commonly found in nail polish removers 
Hydrazine &#8211; used in rocket fuel

As for the under age users thats a whole different subject, this is what happens when there is not enough control over who can and cant get their hands on a pack of smokes. 

This country would have had tons more problems in getting established if it wasn't for the tobacco industry and will not be able to survive if the powers that be eliminate the industry all together. 

Its still a choice if you want to smoke a cig or not and sure there are those that choose not to, but just because you don't want to smoke doesn't give you the right to tell me that i cant smoke where I'm doing business the same if not more than you, a smoker is better for the economy than a non smoker for many reasons first on the list is that we are putting more money back into the economy just for buying the pack of cigs, and we know its a multi-billion dollar a year industry. Most interesting is that it costs about 71 cents for Phillip Morris to produce one pack of cigs and has a suggested retail price of $1.25 but last time i checked the prices a single pack of smokes is just under $5 a pack thats $3.75 going right to Uncle Sam, and he picks his favorite kids to nurture and say even though we pay for what we want we cant come and play where his kids are we have to stay away, Land of the free my hind quarters. your only free to do what your told and god forbid if you get caught doing anything other than that, because they will punish you to the most extream they can. Its a known fact that in jails and prisons across the u.s. had in-jail violent crimes go up by 240% when the ban was put in place, and bars and resteraunts reported a 70% decrease in sales in the first 3 months and that has only slightly made a come back its still down 55% vs when people could smoke in the bar.


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## mal_crane (Mar 27, 2008)

I have to agree with dubbaman. Even before I smoked cigarettes I respected people's right to smoke when and where they wanted to. Most of the restaurants and bars where I am from lost a considerable amount of their customer base when NYS banned smoking. A couple even closed down. Most bars in my area turned to private clubs when the smoking ban was started. I can't find anywhere within 100 miles where I can go to have a beer and enjoy a cigarette after work unless it's a private club where memberships cost money.

Fortunately, I'm a short distance from a tax-free environment which sells name brand cigarettes at half price and 100% additive free Indian cigarettes for only $10 a carton.


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## Dubbaman (Mar 27, 2008)

mal_crane said:
			
		

> Fortunately, I'm a short distance from a tax-free environment which sells name brand cigarettes at half price and 100% additive free Indian cigarettes for only $10 a carton.


 
Lucky that Native American brand here is still about 35 a carton. though i still only have to spend 15 on my can of tobacco for the month those couple of pack a month can hurt when i don't feel like having to roll it up.

back to the thread starter i think its great that Holland gives the :aok: to the long glorious tradition of burning a hooter in the bar, some things just should never change.


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## annscrib (Mar 27, 2008)

i wish i was in holland,,, i KNOW i could put these darm criggs down forever,,,, but with our laws they 2 sec most dangerous drug legal and alcohol is the 1st



thats just my thoughts


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## jraddude (Mar 27, 2008)

cookie said:
			
		

> i never said it was a good joke. lol. in fact, its kind of awful. and i know. trust me. i know.


 

haha no, you are wrong. it is a great joke. lol, got me laughing


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## Vanessa (Mar 28, 2008)

YEP THEY NEED TO HURRY UP AND PASS THE LAW ON SMOKING WEED IN OUR STARBUCKS.


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## AlienBait (Mar 28, 2008)

Dubbaman said:
			
		

> Heres the real culprits behind the death in cigs not the tobacco or the industry its the additives that are used to cure, process, package, and preserve the product that are more contributory to the related premature deaths that you speak of. Cigarette smoke contains over 3,000 chemicals: Most of them are rather nasty such as:
> 
> Nicotine - insecticide and used in cockroach and other insect killing products
> Formaldehyde  used as a fluid to embalm dead bodies
> ...


 
That is why you should grow your own.  For a Pack-A-Day habit, you need to grow about 80 plants per year.

I've been growing my own tobacco for about 5 years now.  I smoke a pipe, not cigs, and I don't smoke that much so I only grow about 15 plants per year and that gets me through.


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## I'ma Joker Midnight Toker (Mar 28, 2008)

Dubbaman said:
			
		

> Its still a choice if you want to smoke a cig or not and sure there are those that choose not to, but just because you don't want to smoke doesn't give you the right to tell me that i cant smoke where I'm doing business the same if not more than you, a smoker is better for the economy than a non smoker for many reasons first on the list is that we are putting more money back into the economy just for buying the pack of cigs, and we know its a multi-billion dollar a year industry.



I say great for Holland...but cigs????? At least you're going to a place to get high, they could have death rooms for cig smokers only... 

I find it hard to believe in this day and age we have people so willing to give up the rights and health of others. It's a proven fact second hand smoke kills, so just because you spend money or do business in the same place I do that gives you the right to kill me? I do have the right to tell you not to.  *That is just plain ignorant*. You guys should know better to even take this argument, shame on you.

So you feel you have the right to kill me while you drink, I should be able to unload my 45 on you then, fair is fair, my way is more humane even, quicker and not a slow death like cancer...wait I know, you get cancer and you you can get medical MJ...hmmm, that's real bright.

So money dictates whether it is OK to kill others? Another stupid idea, how can anyone think this is a good argument? Are you guys teenagers? Early twenties?.... cause I'm sure you're not mature adults with that kind of thinking.

  Face it guys, smoking harms you and everyone around you when you smoke. You don't have that right to harm others and any argument you give is pointless, it's human life we are talking about and just because it's a bar and used to be OK doesn't make it right. Smoking anywhere should be banned and we would live just fine without the tobacco industry. Did you vote for Bush?

Do us all a favor, smoke in your home, your car - alone and just kill yourself, you don't have the right to effect others health because of your stupid habit you haven't got the sense to quit.


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## Dubbaman (Mar 28, 2008)

I'ma Joker Midnight Toker said:
			
		

> At least you're going to a place to get high, they could have death rooms for cig smokers only...


 they did say in the articl that there were going to be seperate rooms for this.



			
				I'ma Joker Midnight Toker said:
			
		

> I find it hard to believe in this day and age we have people so willing to give up the rights and health of others. It's a prov en fact second hand smoke kills, so just because you spend money or do business in the same place I do that gives you the right to kill me? I do have the right to tell you not to. *That is just plain ignorant*.


 Truth be told it would be the proprietors choice who they preferred to cater too so the stand point needs to be if they want to have a smoking or non smoking place of establishment not who is doing what to who's health. sure 2nd hand smoke is harmful and the way so many (uhem) go on and on you'd think it was worse than smoking the cig to begin with, either way its still not your place to tell me that i cant have one where and when i choose.
id go over the rest of it too but its obvious that your one of the many who have fallen for the propaganda shoved at you here lately that says its going to kill everyone if we cant get people to quit. Its a load of crap all the way around. This particular product built this nation the way it stands. it has been known for years that it is harmful when mixed with all the additives to preserve it, tobacco in its natural state like MJ is 95% harmless. its the agents  in the cigs that are the problems and thats where you get confused. most of my family has been and still are smokers for many generation and sorry to say it but non of them have had any of the listed health problems from smoking, and most have all lived into their late 70s and 80s i have a great aunt still kicking now that has smoked 3 packs of Salem's a day for 65 years, I'm sure their were other brands too but thats the only one i can remember it ever being, and shes 92. smoking is something that if you do in moderation and have generally good health it just may not kill you. Hell my last full physical for insurance (life) had to include x-rays of my chest and the Dr. that performed them asked me if i had ever smoked when i said i have been for 22 years he told me there was no sign of it in my lungs, no damage what so ever. Its when you already have bad health habits e.g. too much fast food, no exercise, etc. and heavy heavy smoking can you really do yourself harm. It just amazes me at how many people just up and think that just because they don't do it and cant see why others may want or enjoy to they have the right to protest it being done around where they may at some point end up, it so simple if you don't like the way the rabbit gets treated at the dog tack don't go and place bets.


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## I'ma Joker Midnight Toker (Mar 28, 2008)

Dubbaman said:
			
		

> they did say in the articl that there were going to be seperate rooms for this.
> 
> Truth be told it would be the proprietors choice who they preferred to cater too so the stand point needs to be if they want to have a smoking or non smoking place of establishment not who is doing what to who's health. sure 2nd hand smoke is harmful and the way so many (uhem) go on and on you'd think it was worse than smoking the cig to begin with, either way its still not your place to tell me that i cant have one where and when i choose.
> id go over the rest of it too but its obvious that your one of the many who have fallen for the propaganda shoved at you here lately that says its going to kill everyone if we cant get people to quit. Its a load of crap all the way around. This particular product built this nation the way it stands. it has been known for years that it is harmful when mixed with all the additives to preserve it, tobacco in its natural state like MJ is 95% harmless. its the agents  in the cigs that are the problems and thats where you get confused. most of my family has been and still are smokers for many generation and sorry to say it but non of them have had any of the listed health problems from smoking, and most have all lived into their late 70s and 80s i have a great aunt still kicking now that has smoked 3 packs of Salem's a day for 65 years, I'm sure their were other brands too but thats the only one i can remember it ever being, and shes 92. smoking is something that if you do in moderation and have generally good health it just may not kill you. Hell my last full physical for insurance (life) had to include x-rays of my chest and the Dr. that performed them asked me if i had ever smoked when i said i have been for 22 years he told me there was no sign of it in my lungs, no damage what so ever. Its when you already have bad health habits e.g. too much fast food, no exercise, etc. and heavy heavy smoking can you really do yourself harm. It just amazes me at how many people just up and think that just because they don't do it and cant see why others may want or enjoy to they have the right to protest it being done around where they may at some point end up, it so simple if you don't like the way the rabbit gets treated at the dog tack don't go and place bets.



Yes Dubba,
  And a number of people have survived a parachute fall without a good canopy above their heads...you gonna jump without one? 

It's proven fact, indisputable that smoking kills you...PERIOD. Some may dodge the bullet but only a few. You failed to mention besides your aunt who is still kicking that hundreds of thousands aren't kicking, they are dead because of smoking. If it is the additives how many grow and roll their own???.... very few and certainly not enough to matter.

_"It just amazes me at how many people just up and think that just because they don't do it and cant see why others may want or enjoy to they have the right to protest it being done around where they may at some point end up"_

You amaze me with that archaic thinking. 
What are you thinking?. You cause harm to others because you are too ignorant not to smoke in their space...pure and simple. It doesn't matter what this country was or is brought up on. We had slaves too, do you want them back? We grow and hopefully learn. What was done in the past is just that, it doesn't make it right for the future. If you have to make things fit for you, rationalize off all that doesn't fit your habit, well that's your limitations and stupidity. Do you feel good every time you blow smoke and it hurts others?... cause that's what you are doing. It amazes you that this may bother people? Kill yourself, not others.

Dude to even argue this shows how ignorant one is of all the info that's available. This is proven fact that smoking kills and especially second hand smoke...are you that ignorant to admit this? Get a clue dude...

_"id go over the rest of it too but its obvious that your one of the many who have fallen for the propaganda shoved at you here lately that says its going to kill everyone if we cant get people to quit. Its a load of crap all the way around."_

Back it up man, don't make empty assumptions...some refuse the truth while others ignore it...the smart learn from it...quit and live longer..or at least don't hurt others on your way.


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## Dubbaman (Mar 28, 2008)

I'ma Joker Midnight Toker said:
			
		

> You amaze me with that archaic thinking.
> What are you thinking?. You cause harm to others because you are too ignorant not to smoke in their space...pure and simple. It doesn't matter what this country was or is brought up on.


 One i never said i go and smoke around others. my wife is a non smoker and we have kids so i enjoy my cigs out back because i know of what second hand smoke can and is said to do. your blinding your self with facts and rates so much that your blind and its also a choice that you make before you would walk into some place that is designated for smokers so you have no reason to complain if your the one that doesnt smoke in a smoke filled area. 99% of the problem with the bars and how smoky they were getting is from poor maintence of filtration if they were to use the ventilation and have it serviced regularly there would be your clean air for you and we could still have or smoking where we are. Closed, single mindedness to any and everyones feelings is ignorant and you are really getting on my last nerve calling me ignorant for thinking that i DONT have a right to choose what i do and where i do it cause i do,m thats your ignorance right there your telling me what i can do and where i can do it that is the problem, by someone stepping in and saying that were not allowed to do this has taken away our right to choose what we can do, POINT BLANK.




			
				I'ma Joker Midnight Toker said:
			
		

> Dude to even argue this shows how ignorant anyone is who agrees or argues this point. This is proven fact that smoking kills and especially second hand smoke...are you that ignorant to admit this?


 And yet here you are still (what you call) arguing the point. It is not proven fact that smoking kills if that were true someone would die any and every time they were to light up, its PROVEN to cause complications in health that *MAY* cause death. And did you know for someone to have health issues from second hand smoke has to spend YEARS and YEARS living in it for it to really effect them.And you sit there feeling all high and mighty spouting your non smoking propaganda again and have the nerve to call me ignorant, when your the closed minded, left wing, benighted, one trying to (yet again) force your opinions on someone that you disagree with. I say smoking is an individuals choice and those that choose not to smoke have NO RIGHT to tell me where and when i can or cant smoke. IF you dont like it because im sitting in a bar where (or when) it is/was allowed then you have stepped into the wrong place to have a drink head on down the street to the oxygen bar and pull up a mask.


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## mal_crane (Mar 28, 2008)

Dubbaman said:
			
		

> And yet here you are still (what you call) arguing the point. It is not proven fact that smoking kills if that were true someone would die any and every time they were to light up, its PROVEN to cause complications in health that *MAY* cause death. And did you know for someone to have health issues from second hand smoke has to spend YEARS and YEARS living in it for it to really effect them.And you sit there feeling all high and mighty spouting your non smoking propaganda again and have the nerve to call me ignorant, when your the closed minded, left wing, benighted, one trying to (yet again) force your opinions on someone that you disagree with. I say smoking is an individuals choice and those that choose not to smoke have NO RIGHT to tell me where and when i can or cant smoke. IF you dont like it because im sitting in a bar where (or when) it is/was allowed then you have stepped into the wrong place to have a drink head on down the street to the oxygen bar and pull up a mask.



:yeahthat: :goodposting: :clap: I AGREE 100%!!!! :clap: :goodposting: :yeahthat:


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## I'ma Joker Midnight Toker (Mar 28, 2008)

mal_crane said:
			
		

> :yeahthat: :goodposting: :clap: I AGREE 100%!!!! :clap: :goodposting: :yeahthat:



Hey Mal, got something to say I would love to hear it....


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## I'ma Joker Midnight Toker (Mar 28, 2008)

Dubbaman said:
			
		

> One i never said i go and smoke around others. my wife is a non smoker and we have kids so i enjoy my cigs out back because i know of what second hand smoke can and is said to do. your blinding your self with facts and rates so much that your blind and its also a choice that you make before you would walk into some place that is designated for smokers so you have no reason to complain if your the one that doesnt smoke in a smoke filled area. 99% of the problem with the bars and how smoky they were getting is from poor maintence of filtration if they were to use the ventilation and have it serviced regularly there would be your clean air for you and we could still have or smoking where we are. Closed, single mindedness to any and everyones feelings is ignorant and you are really getting on my last nerve calling me ignorant for thinking that i DONT have a right to choose what i do and where i do it cause i do,m thats your ignorance right there your telling me what i can do and where i can do it that is the problem, by someone stepping in and saying that were not allowed to do this has taken away our right to choose what we can do, POINT BLANK.
> 
> 
> And yet here you are still (what you call) arguing the point. It is not proven fact that smoking kills if that were true someone would die any and every time they were to light up, its PROVEN to cause complications in health that *MAY* cause death. And did you know for someone to have health issues from second hand smoke has to spend YEARS and YEARS living in it for it to really effect them.And you sit there feeling all high and mighty spouting your non smoking propaganda again and have the nerve to call me ignorant, when your the closed minded, left wing, benighted, one trying to (yet again) force your opinions on someone that you disagree with. I say smoking is an individuals choice and those that choose not to smoke have NO RIGHT to tell me where and when i can or cant smoke. IF you dont like it because im sitting in a bar where (or when) it is/was allowed then you have stepped into the wrong place to have a drink head on down the street to the oxygen bar and pull up a mask.





Yes -  it is a proven fact smoking kills, and yes you are ignorant if you can't see that...yeah I'm old...you were just a stain in your daddy's underwear when I started drinking and smoking pot so don't tell me where I can drink or not, have respect for your elders 

I play by the rules...
Smoking places - I don't go there...plain and simple they got they're place, you're place...I'm happy you have a place.
the rest is for non-smokers, again don't complain as your turf shrinks, there is a reason, it kills,... oops I said it again. I like Britney even at my advanced age.

_And yet here you are still (what you call) arguing the point. It is not proven fact that smoking kills if that were true someone would die any and every time they were to light up, its PROVEN to cause complications in health that *MAY* cause death. _

Are you on Earth? It kills man, proven, done...don't need me to say so, it's documented...Christ read a book, get a life...it's set in stone like death and taxes... *IT KILLS.

*_And did you know for someone to have health issues from second hand smoke has to spend YEARS and YEARS living in it for it to really effect them.And you sit there feeling all high and mighty spouting your non smoking propaganda again and have the nerve to call me ignorant, when your the closed minded, left wing, benighted, one trying to (yet again) force your opinions on someone that you disagree with._

Dude, you have no facts or basis to make that statement, besides the slander. Dude, there is nothing high or mighty about not smoking (propaganda? are you kidding me?), it's simply common sense.
Yet again...Dubba, you are a Dubba...are you related to George Dubba? 

Man, you are missing the whole point, ... my dad died from it as thousands and maybe millions of others have or will...I see no benefit from it...so call me what you like and put words in my mouth that aren't what I said...I don't smoke or hurt others... Peace out...really...out...  

PS I hope I woke your last nerve up, cause the carcinogens are going to kill it for ya anyway


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## Dubbaman (Mar 29, 2008)

I'ma Joker Midnight Toker said:
			
		

> Yes - it is a proven fact smoking kills, and yes you are ignorant if you can't see that...yeah I'm old...you were just a stain in your daddy's underwear when I started drinking and smoking pot so don't tell me where I can drink or not, have respect for your elders
> 
> I play by the rules...
> Smoking places - I don't go there...plain and simple they got they're place, you're place...I'm happy you have a place.
> ...


 
what the hell ever man your blindly ignorant and moronically stupid enough to still try and debate a moot point then you will never see anything but your own set aging ways. Life is no more about you and what the world needs to conform for you than it is about society as a whole and understanding the wants and needs or respect and desires of others and once you get it out of the thick ******* head that your not the only one who can or for that matter should benefit from any law/rule that is put into place then , and only then will you start to respect any side of any debate, till then go back to your cave and be happy that they pass the unjust and completely utterly insane law that says some life choices are to be kept in the prohibition stage. just wait some time and once again it will be raging out of control and accepted by all and then you will be the one out in the cold losing your stool to someone who is a smoker and you were the one that had to go out to get your air. Cig smoking does no more harm to an individual (non-smoker) in an hour of  breathing it in than sitting in smog filled traffic for 15 mins in your morning commute. Like i said your blinded by propaganda and will not see the real truth behind the matter so you may as well drop it, because your starting to sound like a 6 year old who still cant understand why 3*9/27=1 doesn't add up. And just to prove the point again it was W that signed the papers to make it a country wide ban., therefor you should be kidding his *** for it because like i said its jack offs like you that cant stand for someone else to do what they please and feel you have to control it all for you to be happy and **** the rest.

P.S. i don't give a rats ******* *** what any of you self centered hypocrites do or say about any of the previous posts or of this one in particular tight ***-ed cock ******* leftists should never be able to say what anyone can or should do in public or in private. when *** holes like this get too much attention or power they think that changing the world for their on benefit is where its at and thats where the western "civilization" has got it all backward, its all for one and one for all not one for themselves and who gives **** who it complicates life for, you ******* closed minded flamboyantly ignorant *** licking MORON.Id bet you the same type of jack *** that believes a woman who is molested/raped and gets pregnant shouldn't have the right to terminate too, and here is the same double edged debate that you yourself said is ignorant to get into but you still did, its my body and my life you should never have the right to decide what i can and can not choose to do or where i do it! Its just not your place or right to decide, and that is the whole point that you keep evading, and that is why i know that you have no point to debate on.


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## dmack (Mar 29, 2008)

Dubbaman said:
			
		

> western "civilization" has got it all backward, its all for one and one for all not one for themselves and who gives **** who it complicates life for, you ******* closed minded flamboyantly ignorant *** licking MORON.


 Yes civilization has it all twisted. I guess it was all for one when we came over here and destroyed civilizations. And it is all for one when people totally disregard other human beings feelings about the death sticks you throw around in front of them called cigs. You are a very knowlegable person Dubbaman but maybe for once just think maybe all the commercials and addiction adgents of your cigs have made you fight for the right to kill other people. Letting that cig go through generations without denying it is going to cause massive land use for graves . I guess keep on smoking cause soon or later all the people who smoke wont just be here. Die your race out if you want. But you have control over it bro. Live on with us and dont let this addiction of a goverment made weapon kill you. Peace and love my friends


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## I'ma Joker Midnight Toker (Mar 29, 2008)

Dubbaman said:
			
		

> what the hell ever man your blindly ignorant and moronically stupid enough to still try and debate a moot point then you will never see anything but your own set aging ways. Life is no more about you and what the world needs to conform for you than it is about society as a whole and understanding the wants and needs or respect and desires of others and once you get it out of the thick ******* head that your not the only one who can or for that matter should benefit from any law/rule that is put into place then , and only then will you start to respect any side of any debate, till then go back to your cave and be happy that they pass the unjust and completely utterly insane law that says some life choices are to be kept in the prohibition stage. just wait some time and once again it will be raging out of control and accepted by all and then you will be the one out in the cold losing your stool to someone who is a smoker and you were the one that had to go out to get your air. Cig smoking does no more harm to an individual (non-smoker) in an hour of  breathing it in than sitting in smog filled traffic for 15 mins in your morning commute. Like i said your blinded by propaganda and will not see the real truth behind the matter so you may as well drop it, because your starting to sound like a 6 year old who still cant understand why 3*9/27=1 doesn't add up. And just to prove the point again it was W that signed the papers to make it a country wide ban., therefor you should be kidding his *** for it because like i said its jack offs like you that cant stand for someone else to do what they please and feel you have to control it all for you to be happy and **** the rest.
> 
> P.S. i don't give a rats ******* *** what any of you self centered hypocrites do or say about any of the previous posts or of this one in particular tight ***-ed cock ******* leftists should never be able to say what anyone can or should do in public or in private. when *** holes like this get too much attention or power they think that changing the world for their on benefit is where its at and thats where the western "civilization" has got it all backward, its all for one and one for all not one for themselves and who gives **** who it complicates life for, you ******* closed minded flamboyantly ignorant *** licking MORON.Id bet you the same type of jack *** that believes a woman who is molested/raped and gets pregnant shouldn't have the right to terminate too, and here is the same double edged debate that you yourself said is ignorant to get into but you still did, its my body and my life you should never have the right to decide what i can and can not choose to do or where i do it! Its just not your place or right to decide, and that is the whole point that you keep evading, and that is why i know that you have no point to debate on.



Man oh man dude, you are everything your post says about me...who's acting like a 6 year old, not me. I'm not alone on this and I'm not closed minded...I know what cigs do and you can't get a grip on it, it's got a grip on you. I'm not addicted to cigs, you are plain and simple and you can't see past your addiction. I don't have to call you a moron or names, what does that solve? You need therapy my friend. Now you bring abortion into it...I see one they missed that I would have been all for...  You are just a trouble maker dude.

_its my body and my life you should never have the right to decide what i can and can not choose to do or where i do it! Its just not your place or right to decide, and that is the whole point that you keep evading, and that is why i know that you have no point to debate on._

I think I haven't evaded this point at all. I do have the right to decide where you smoke if it's going to effect the health of me and others. You're just beside yourself because you are losing the battle in this area. Soon it will be against the law to smoke anywhere in public...Hooray!!! It's not just me but millions of others who want this too, to protect their children and loved ones from the mindless who think they have the right to kill others besides themselves. I'm being spot on this point, it's you who fails to see the light my friend.

Dubba, hmmm, what does that name imply?... get a life, if you can't debate without falling apart and calling people names and spitting out crap what good is your point? You're the one looking like the moron, not me so clean up your posts man and be cool...smoke yourself to death, I don't care...just be a gentleman and keep it away from others. Peace brother...


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## mal_crane (Mar 29, 2008)

I'ma Joker Midnight Toker said:
			
		

> Hey Mal, got something to say I would love to hear it....



Me? I'm still waiting for your reply after posting all my researched information and REAL sources on the last thread you got out of control on ...

Speaking of sources, where are all your sources? Missing yet again it seems ...

I've nothing more to say to you, trouble maker, until I start seeing some actual sources and research rather than the opinions you love so much ...


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## dmack (Mar 29, 2008)

The sources are all out there for everyone to see Mal. Google is are friend.


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## mal_crane (Mar 29, 2008)

dmack said:
			
		

> The sources are all out there for everyone to see Mal. Google is are friend.



Exactly my point Dmack. If the proof is out there then why can't Joker ever bring some sources to the table. He called me out for days bitching about how I didn't use sources when I denounced the use of prescription opiates. I gathered all my sources, publicly presented them to him, and surprise, surprise, I got no reply. Now, here we are again, people freaking out on each other because Joker once again has no other reason for posting in this thread other than to start a pointless argument. You don't like smoking, find someplace else that bans smoking and make that your home. I am a smoker and I have rights. If a bar allows smoking, then you have a choice to make whether to go in or find another bar without smoking. Don't want to go to a restaurant because there is a smoking section, find another restaurant. We all have a choice. You have a right to choose whether or not you want to smoke, just as you have a right to choose not to enter public buildings that allow smoking.


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## POTUS (Mar 29, 2008)

Today, the facts concerning overall costs to society and the actual heath risks are well known and accepted by anyone who has researched the thousands of studies done. The below statement is written by the Center for Disease Control (CDC) in the USA.

I smoked for more than 30 years. I said the same things that I've seen the smokers here in this thread say. I did so out of ignorance of the actual facts that are proven with no doubt what-so-ever. If anyone argues with the facts, then it's they who are hiding their heads in the sand and refusing to admit that they are indeed wrong.

The facts I speak of are published and known throughout the world by educated people who have bothered to check the validity of the facts presented.

The link at the bottom of this post will take you to the published article written by the CDC. I know that someone will bring out the fact that the CDC is a place that is financed and run by the US Government. Big deal. That means nothing, BECAUSE, each and every fact that they state can be independently backed up by private research done by Hospitals and Medical research centers around the world. They are just stating the same results as the others have found to be true.

I'm not trying to piss off anyone. I'm trying to show the overwhelming evidence available to anyone who looks for it.

It took me less than one minute to find this web page.

Anyone who ignores or denies the facts about smoking today is doing so as a result of ignorance of the facts or just blind addiction to the very thing that is killing them.

The oldest and most tiring line I've ever heard a smoker tell is "My doctor said that my body shows no signs of damage from smoking and I've been smoking for a lot of years".

That line is Bovine Excrement. NO DOCTOR would be so ignorant as to say that. I don't care how loud you say it, it's still Bovine Excrement.

Fire your Doctor and find one without a bone through his nose.

If you are willing to pay for the costs that YOU cause, at about $10 per/pack of stupid, AND you want to do it where nobody else is hurt by your ignorance and addiction, then FINE, go for it.

Picture this: "I'm not hurting anyone but myself" This comment has been said by every single narcotic addict that ever existed. Smokers are just parroting the reasoning.

So, here's the article from the CDC:

Cigarette smoking continues to be the principal cause of premature death in the United States and imposes substantial costs on society. For each of the approximately 22 billion packs sold in the U.S. in 1999, $3.45 was spent on medical care attributable to smoking, and $3.73 in productivity losses were incurred, for a total cost of $7.18 per pack. These costs provide a strong rationale for increasing funding for comprehensive tobacco-use interventions to the levels recommended by CDC. In California, decreases in smoking prevalence have resulted in reduced lung cancer and heart disease death rates (_9,10_). These results offer evidence of the potential benefits of expanding comprehensive tobacco-control programs in an effort to reduce current smoking prevalence by 50% by 2010.

FACTS ABOUT SMOKING Do they scare you so bad that you're addiction allows you to deny them? I'm betting that like most smokers, they do.

The problem is that every single item in this article can be proven with solid numbers and facts.

I'm still betting that your addiction will make you furious that I pointed this out and you'll call me names and get mad because of your addiction.

That's ok with me. I've already lived longer than you will if you don't quit s ucking on those things.

Sorry folks. You're not talking to a person who has never smoked. I know why I said the same crap you are. It's called an addiction.

"I can quit them any time I want"  Uh huh. You just haven't wanted to in the past 20 years, right? Uh huh.

Bull.

Every smoker wishes they had never seen the damn things. Some are honest enough to admit it.

Ok, I've got the pot bellied stove open, so throw all the flames you want.....

I still love you all. I still love this place. Your anger won't make me stop.


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## Hick (Mar 29, 2008)

WHAT???.. I fail to check on a thread foe a couple of days, and it turns into an immature, mudslinging, name calling, ranting fued...?
 Can't leave children alone for a moment I suppose..  :hitchair: :ignore: 
I hope that a 24 hour suspension of both of your posting privlidges, will involk you to reflect and "respect" our rules here..
Thank you..


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## Hick (Mar 29, 2008)

Where do "I" stand on the issue??
  If I am the bar/resteraunt owner, it should definately be "MY"" perogative to allow smoking or not. "I" own" the building, "I" pay the taxes, "I" should set the rules. Not unlike MarPassion.. 
  "YOU" as a non-smoker, have the perogative of weather to patronize "my" establishment or not... Noone is forceing you.. 
my .02


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## thestandard (Mar 29, 2008)

sovereignty of the individual was given up when we left the state of nature for civil society i'm afraid..


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## POTUS (Mar 29, 2008)

thestandard said:
			
		

> sovereignty of the individual was given up when we left the state of nature for civil society i'm afraid..


 
Yes, when one joins a society and then causes problems that cost $10 per/pack of cigs PLUS the cost of the cigs and the profits of the people who make them, each pack should cost about 15 USD. Each pack.

When smokers start paying for the problems they cause, I'll start respecting their sovereignty in regards to smoking.

So far, that hasn't happened. Society STILL pays for them. That includes ME, and I don't want to pay for someones addiction.

It's really that simple.

Peace, long life, prosperity and happiness.


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## allgrownup (Mar 30, 2008)

completely trashed, comin down, hung over, etc......

you save your last coulple bucks for breakfast in denny's (or some other fine breakfast establishment)


and then it happens....someone lites a *GOSH DARNED* cigarette.

i just want to thrash over the *DAD GUMMED* booths and throw my hot coffee in their face.

man that *SMOKE*smells like *MY PITS*. 

and second hand smoke doesnt effect me????than how come i can spend a nite in a club, bar or casino, or just about any place where most of civilization with no self dicipline or intellect hang out daily, and wake up the next morning still smelling cigarettes. its in my nose, i cant escape it.  i have to put up with it til the stank wears off.  not to mention my close reaking.  you ever see a smokers house when they move sheesh...there's a whole new color of paint behind their wall pics.

that stuff is poison and inescapable....i feel like smokers do it with intent like cropdusting.... shov'n it down my face...(its my world to...and you have to deal with it....wha wha)

the bottom line about cigs.....they serve no health benefit whatsoever and affect others.  i hope that one day if smokers have children they RISE above their ADDICTION and spare their children the asthma, cronic illness, and God forbid worse.

prove to yourself that you have some self dicipline and are in control of your life.  quit.


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## allgrownup (Mar 30, 2008)

for those that aren't aware.....you can provide your children with EXCEPTIONAL healthcare in California compliments of smokers.

its all based on income of course but the only benefit i have seen come from smoking is the taxes the smokers pay.  They use this money to almost completely subsidize the "healthy families" program.  Every person in CA who has children and makes less than 50k??? 75K??? idk it depends on how many dependents and whatever....can get this health coverage.

this program helps thousands of families provide care to otherwise uninsured children.

i have no problem with people smoking as long as its not in public places or outside areas where people gather.  you can have your own smoking clubs, bars etc.  As long as there is a clear sign or way to identify the establishment, than i will avoid them.

thats the way it should be....people should have choices and they should be respected.


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## mal_crane (Mar 30, 2008)

Quote from POTUS: _"If you are willing to pay for the costs that YOU cause, at about $10 per/pack of stupid" and "When smokers start paying for the problems they cause, I'll start respecting their sovereignty in regards to smoking."
_
You forget that we (smokers and business owners who allow smoking) pay much more in health and life insurance than non-smokers. In the end, before smokers begin to die out, we will also have helped the economy considerably. Think about all the money spent on that extra gas to go to the store for a pack of cigarettes, all the extra doctor's visits, all the money we put back into the government for paying outrages taxes on a product that costs 31 cents to make. Not saying it makes it right, just sticking with the facts.

Quote from Hick: _"Where do "I" stand on the issue??
If I am the bar/resteraunt owner, it should definately be "MY"" perogative to allow smoking or not. "I" own" the building, "I" pay the taxes, "I" should set the rules. Not unlike MarPassion.. 
"YOU" as a non-smoker, have the perogative of weather to patronize "my" establishment or not... Noone is forceing you.."_

Very well put Hick, thank you!


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## POTUS (Mar 30, 2008)

mal_crane said:
			
		

> Quote from POTUS: _"If you are willing to pay for the costs that YOU cause, at about $10 per/pack of stupid" and "When smokers start paying for the problems they cause, I'll start respecting their sovereignty in regards to smoking."_
> 
> You forget that we (smokers and business owners who allow smoking) pay much more in health and life insurance than non-smokers. In the end, before smokers begin to die out, we will also have helped the economy considerably. Think about all the money spent on that extra gas to go to the store for a pack of cigarettes, all the extra doctor's visits, all the money we put back into the government for paying outrages taxes on a product that costs 31 cents to make. Not saying it makes it right, just sticking with the facts.


 
None of that extra money balances the scales. Not even close.

Smokers cost society BILLIONS of dollars that are paid for by non-smokers. Like I said, if you were to pay your own way, each pack would cast you about $15 USD. Until it does, us non-smokers are still paying for your addiction.

I think I've already made that point.


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## Hick (Mar 30, 2008)

allgrownup said:
			
		

> completely trashed, comin down, hung over, etc......
> 
> you save your last coulple bucks for breakfast in denny's (or some other fine breakfast establishment)
> 
> ...


...From your post, a little "self discipline" could be apllicable here, too... 
I "just" suspended two members for 'their' flagrant rule violations.


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## Hick (Mar 30, 2008)

> that stuff is poison and inescapable....i feel like smokers do it with intent like cropdusting.... shov'n it down my face...(its my world to...and you have to deal with it....wha wha)


  In a "public" venue,... I absolutely agree. In "my" house.. "my" bar, "my" resteraunt.. you nor the government should be allowed to 'dictate' what "I" do or allow, as long as it is legal.. *"IMHO"*  I know smoking isn't healthy, it's a serious health hazard. On that I don't disagree. 
  I find it interesting/ironic that "you" being such an advocate of 'freedom' and soooo against governmental control, rules, and restrictions, to be in such high support of that very thing now.
  Kinda' the pot calling the kettle black ain't it??. 
  I won't allow another mudslinging match to get started, and I'm not trying to start one. I just simply find it apalling, that you find our rules constricting, complain about the censorship, offend me with your language, are always posting about "freedoms" and "rights" violations, yet support the governmental control of what is and isn't allowed in a privately owned establishment. Infringment on "my" rights as a property owner,... again.. "IMHO". 
   I'm not advocating smoking, or dismissing the hazards of second hand smoke. "I" am addressing the rights of a property owner.


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## dmack (Mar 30, 2008)

mal_crane said:
			
		

> Quote from POTUS: _"If you are willing to pay for the costs that YOU cause, at about $10 per/pack of stupid" and "When smokers start paying for the problems they cause, I'll start respecting their sovereignty in regards to smoking."
> _
> You forget that we (smokers and business owners who allow smoking) pay much more in health and life insurance than non-smokers. In the end, before smokers begin to die out, we will also have helped the economy considerably. Think about all the money spent on that extra gas to go to the store for a pack of cigarettes, all the extra doctor's visits, all the money we put back into the government for paying outrages taxes on a product that costs 31 cents to make. Not saying it makes it right, just sticking with the facts.
> 
> ...


I fail to mention it costs 50 billion a year in healthcare costs to keep your society of smoking kicking. That was money put out that could have wen tot much brighter things in life. Like that kid thats starving or that homeless person shivering in the cold night. But no you want that money for yourselfs you selfish people. And that gas that you use to get to the store everyday for your pack of cigs is causing much more polution ON TOP OF your so called cigs. All fighting this thread battle in hopes that your death sticks will look much better in our eyes then i have a reality check. Your basically dead. The people who see the truths and decipher all the ** are the ones who will live one. We have control of OUR lives. YOU DONT. So the next time i see a person smoking with no regard for the other human being next to him ill be sure to pray that night against that person. Or i can hit him and show how much pain he is causing in the future???? This is a right and wrong situation. Yous are wrong who think you can smoke anywhere. Guess i can urinate on your lawn too when i want eh?


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## mal_crane (Mar 30, 2008)

The above (^#39) is a ridiculous post. Did you even read anything Hick just said? Have you ever even paid life insurance or health insurance? Try comparing how much you as a non-smoker pays compared to any smoker who admits they smoke to the insurance company. Where did you find your statistics of 50 billion a year in health care costs? Personally, I could care less how many times each and every one of you use the death scare tactic with me. If I die from smoking cigarettes, then I die from smoking cigarettes. As I've already said at the beginning of this thread, even before I smoked I still respected the right of the smoker. It's amazing how against strict government control most of you are, yet here you all are saying government control needs to be tighter.

And Dmack, come on, seriously. You're going to try and tell me about pollution? It takes 14 years for a cigarette butt to decompose and if you're worried about the gas, i'll walk to the store from now on. Have you ever used any type of plastic (McD's styro, store bag, candy wrapper, even a plastic soda cap) and not recycled it? Then you've caused a whole lot more pollution than my cigarette butts ever will. Plastic and styro are resistant to oxydation and are artificial so it cannot be devoured by micro-organisms.

I didn't say nor have I EVER said that smokers should be allowed to smoke EVERYWHERE. This has nothing to do with you coming over to my house and pissing on my lawn. In fact, that is the exact opposite of what we are trying to show you. This thread deals with property rights. You don't have any more of a right to come over and urinate on my lawn than I do to come find wherever you are sitting in front of your computer monitor and blow cigarette smoke in your face. But if a bar or restaurant openly allows smoking, then quit whining because it's your right to *GO FIND SOMEPLACE ELSE!* Remember it's not your business, you don't pay taxes on it, you don't own it. Go build Dmack's Bar and put a big sign on the door that says *NO SMOKING!*


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## dmack (Mar 30, 2008)

Government conrol? Control through your cigs are government control. Enough said. i resign. But still hold my opinions and truths close to me. I dont drink either Mal so i would not have a reason to sell another one of the governments killing juices. You people crack me up. So blind its funny. I understand its my right to go to that bar Mal. I see your points bro. But theres also alot more to this and thats why we are arguing it because its bad and people care, like myself. I bet teh world would be a better place if alcohol and cigs werent ever made to trap innocent people.


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## dmack (Mar 30, 2008)

But our so called leaders and the people above him are just evil and want havoc in life for everyone so they can make the almighty dollar bill that wont be worth crap in the coming ages.


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## POTUS (Mar 30, 2008)

mal_crane said:
			
		

> Where did you find your statistics of 50 billion a year in health care costs?


 
You're correct, it's only $31,600,000,000 USD (31.6 Billion) per/year.

That's from the CDC page I linked to in my post below.


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## mal_crane (Mar 30, 2008)

Thank you for keeping it real POTUS, your sources that is.


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## dmack (Mar 30, 2008)

Still, 31.6 billion that could have gone to something thats important. Not costs for people who decide to want to inject poison into themselves.


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## allgrownup (Mar 30, 2008)

whoah buddy....

your putting words in my mouth...





> i have no problem with people smoking as long as its not in public places or outside areas where people gather. you can have your own smoking clubs, bars etc. As long as there is a clear sign or way to identify the establishment, than i will avoid them.
> 
> thats the way it should be....people should have choices and they should be respected.



so far, i have seen no indication that making someone stand out on a patio to smoke has cut sales in ANY establishment.  when my friends get up from the bar to go outside for a stick of cancer, i don't cling to them.  i  enjoy my beverage and hold an interesting converation whith some i didn;t know 5 secs ago. 

People choose to  run cigar lounges and i don't frequent them. If the risk = reward, like a hoppin club or a great nite at the casino, i live with it.  thats the price of fun it seems.  us non smokers make sacrifices to put up with it.  or have to seek out the backroom/corner of the casino, pub, whatever it is it usually out of the action.....but that IS changing....and I LOVE IT!

take a :chillpill: 

defending my right for good health is not the same as defending the govtment.  you lost me here   you trying to get under my skin? dont reply to that as i am practicing my self dicipline by no longer replying in this thread.  I like you man, and the other side or your debates.   i'd like to fire one up with ya sometime....we'd prolly stay up late debating over stuff hahahahahha

peace  :48:


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## Nova (Mar 31, 2008)

:batman: Holy Batwings Batman! :batman:

:holysheep:  :huh:



​


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## Hick (Mar 31, 2008)

I don't want under your skin AGU. Not my intentions at all. Nor have I "put words in your mouth"..  I did single you out, but because you are one that has always pushed for 'personal freedoms', 'personal rights', government conspiracies, over regulation, ect. But It just seems that 'personal rights' are only valid, when the benefit your point of view.
  I don't begrudge you, your right to breathe smoke free air in public buildings, including government buildings, hospitals, stores, ect.anyplace that people are required or may be forced to intermingle with the 'second class' smokers.
  As such an avid advocate of personal rights and freedoms, why should you begrudge me the right as a "private property owner" the same basic individual rights?..  



> so far, i have seen no indication that making someone stand out on a patio to smoke has cut sales in ANY establishment.


 
  Who said anything about "cut sales"?.. not me. 
But I can address it.. 
If I as the owners of a business, feel compelled to alllow smoking in my establishment, and that smoking persuades you to not patronize my business, 'there' is income/sales loss, that "I" have chosen to lose. That is "my" descision, and I should be willing to take that loss.  
  But that desision should be mine to make.. IMHO. 
  Vice versa.. If the bar next door chooses to forbid smoking, and "I" refuse to spend my money there, theres a sales loss that he chose to lose.
  I simply feel it should be an 'individuals right to choose'.
  I'm done, too. I won't argue about it.

okay,, my 3rd EDIT 
  I don't think we're so far apart on the issue agu, after rereading the entire thread. "Here", smoking is forbidden in all bars, reseraunts, casinos, and within 15' of the entrance of those esablishments. They aren't even allowed a specified smoking area... I'm not against that, "at all"... _IF_ the "owner" of that establishment chooses to make that his policy. 
But I don't feel that a 'law' (governmental control), should be forced on him, in his privately owned establishment.. 
  No different than a 'cigar bar'


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## Dubbaman (Mar 31, 2008)

Only a few last thoughts to add to this before i let it be since there really will never be an end to it and i know myself that when i stand for something i am unyielding.

1) i never in any of the posts said that i was disputing any of the info on smoking- I am aware (as are any smokers, all you have to do is read the side of the pack)) of the problems that can/are caused by the habit. as for the quote of my Dr. who cant find signs of it in my body, that statement is talking of area most commonly effected by smoking there is no sign of degradation in my lungs or heart. but you can tell i am a smoker from the early wrinkles and skin discoloration that does come from the habit.

2) as it pertains to the name calling Joker you need to read back through it and see that yes you did start off the name calling toward me and i did what i will and i have no regrets for it you stated yourself that any debate on this topic was ignorant, but yet there you were to keep stoking the fire and spouting the same :**: over and over. I was never debating the point of what cigs will do to anyone. only the point of who's right it is to say where and how you enjoy your smoke, you say keep it away and i say its crap that I'm not allowed to have my own places too, ironically enough theres the point you were evading.

Theres tons more that can be said other points that can be addressed, such as the cost offsets etc etc, smokers do cover their incurred life debilitating habit costs be it with higher health care/life insurance premiums, or the resounding tax that goes to (ding dong) the G-MAN its already 16 times the cost of manufacture, and that money should go toward anti-campaigns, but they don't use it there do they. All in all its an individual(s) choice, the only area that really needs to be regulated by the "MAN" is what they are putting in the things. I did say i was going to quit (not many times) but it has been there and thats more due to the costs of the product than any other reason, but instead of kicking the habit i found ways to lessen the cost and still be able to enjoy what i choose. I also still stand on the area of where your putting your blame, Tobacco is additive its the nicotine in it and thats au natural, same as THC in MJ its the industries "additives" that make it so harmful to everyone so don't blame me or say that its because i choose to smoke that has your health at risk take some responsibility for your own actions If you don't want to be around it don't be, but never come into a place where its permitted and shut me out because you don't like it, and that is what has been done to smokers everywhere. 

In the great words of Stan Lee... "Nuff Said"


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## parkingjoe (Mar 31, 2008)

ok im saying my bit now i was 47 last tuesday and have smoked since the age of 15 ok its not big and its not clever but its my choice yet if i develop a smoking related desease my doctor/hospital will look upon me as some sort of leper yet a non smoker will have precedence over me on the for example heart by pass operation yet these non smokers havnt in my honest opinion paid their dues like me via 70% tax per packet of fags.


nuff said each to their own and i dont give a monkeys what people say its getting to be like a police state this crap hole u.k. nowadays big brother watching over you 24/7 with the catch ya speeding cameras on motorways (yeh rite) etc and on the spot fines for anything the pigs can think of-hey pigs why dont ya do your job and catch robbers/rapists etc etc.

pkj


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## POTUS (Mar 31, 2008)

I'm going to tread very lightly here now, but I have to make a point.

A smoker who works full time, pays the cost of his/her choice, has health insurance that is specifically for a smoker with higher risks and doesn't make me smoke it with him/her, then fine, like Hick said, let them do as they wish.

However, reality is a real female dog. The health care costs for the results of smoking so far surpass what is put into the system, it just pisses me off. If someone comes into a hospital with no insurance and it's a smoking related health problem, what are we as a society supposed to do? Turn them away? Hell, the poor souls are choking to death! In the type of hospital that HAS to treat anyone who walks in, what type of cruel and unusual person would turn away someone on their way to death? They aren't turned away, which is a very, very cool thing to say about most humans, but in being accepted with no payment, they shift that cost to everyone, smokers and non-smokers in the form of MORE TAXES on us all. Smokers pay for them at the store, in public and again when they pay what the non-insured shove on em. I only pay once. We both pay their doctors.

It's a real drag. The enjoyment that smokers feel from that nicotine high is truly wonderful. I know it is. I pulled it in for more than 30 years. Man, first cup of java in the morning, first smoke, sitting on the porch, yeah, I remember the feeling.

I know now, however, that the feeling I was having was because of the relief of a physical addiction to nicotine. Now that's a drag. It made me feel better because I wasn't "Jonesin" any more.

Dudes and Dudettes, we're all in this crazy place for our time. Let's take it easy on each other and try to make it move towards "Utopia" just a tiny tad while we're alive.

Put those things down and get over the addiction. It doesn't take that long. Most of it is in your head.

That makes YOU live longer, US ALL have more, LESS death before it has to happen anyway, and once the craving is over, HAPPIER people.

I remember when I quit my two pack a day thing.

I hope they never find the bodies of those non-smokers I met that night...

hehe

Hey, I love you all. Every single one of you is the coolest person I've ever met.

Live happy, live long. By the time some of you are 40, I'll be 100, I hope.

So far, the doc has pretty much left me alone on the pot. I told him I'd fire him even if he is the best doctor I've ever had. He got a good laugh out of that. Of course, he gave me the old "Don't drive, don't over-do, don't drink more" speech.


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## parkingjoe (Mar 31, 2008)

well potus i cannot argue with that statement dude.

yeh smokin is the pits but its also an introduced thing by that prick sir walter raleigh and now the government are on his sorry assed side-they have stopped smokin in all public places in uk such as pubs cafes shops in fact everywhere yet if they felt so strongly about people they would outright ban it tomorrow-not gonna happen too much revenue to be lost thru us durty smokers.

lol

anyway just rolling another fag.

nighty night dudes

pkj


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## Dubbaman (Mar 31, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> A smoker who works full time, pays the cost of his/her choice, has health insurance that is specifically for a smoker with higher risks and doesn't make me smoke it with him/her, then fine, like Hick said, let them do as they wish.


 Preach oh wise owl 



			
				POTUS said:
			
		

> However, reality is a real female dog. The health care costs for the results of smoking so far surpass what is put into the system, it just pisses me off. If someone comes into a hospital with no insurance and it's a smoking related health problem, what are we as a society supposed to do? Turn them away? Hell, the poor souls are choking to death! In the type of hospital that HAS to treat anyone who walks in, what type of cruel and unusual person would turn away someone on their way to death? They aren't turned away, which is a very, very cool thing to say about most humans, but in being accepted with no payment, they shift that cost to everyone, smokers and non-smokers in the form of MORE TAXES on us all. Smokers pay for them at the store, in public and again when they pay what the non-insured shove on em. I only pay once. We both pay their doctors.


 True enough in this situations case, but at the same time in my thinking during the fiasco was more on an individual basis. Oh and i know this will get some panties in a bunch but i have to say it just for the  some will get, i was raised on the premise that if you cant pull your own weight you don't deserve the fruits, so i know of the public hospitals that we all get taxed for and thank heavens for the private ones that i choose to go to, but i still have to say if these people aren't willing to work for the money to care for themselves or their family's then they should be turned away still, it may end up with another plague outbreak but even then only the strong survived. Call it selfish if you wish but i had to fight for what i have, while i don't feel for all man like the current wold push is evolving into, I do think that there has to be a line in how many free rides and handouts are given to those who choose not to do their part. I know after my incarceration i had no place i was dropped off in town to a half way house and after they made sure i had a job and wasn't out hunting up trouble and missing parole meetings i was cut loose from the house, not enough time to have a descent sized savings for an apartment and those that i could get into turned me away for my (then) recent background, ultimately resulting in what would be called homeless for a time, but hey i overcame that had to do with out lots of things then and could have taken the handouts that some states offer things like welfare and food stamps but Christ by the time you spend waiting for appointments and applications it was actually faster to do it on my own, and life experience and upbringing has taught me that if your not willing to do it for yourself then it shouldn't be done for you. Now I'm just rambling again. Oh and as far as how long it took for me to get things in my life back in order it was just over 2 years on the street, the last 3 months were the worst of it staying in flea-bags to have an established address. Like i said too i got myself up off my rear by pulling on the boot straps so don't think I'm looking for any :fid:, i just wanted that out there to explain a bit as to why i said what i said about the health care issue.


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## clambake (Apr 1, 2008)

Man I hate the people who want to take the last of my personal rights.  As a bar/restaurant owner it is MY right to allow whatever I want to happen in my establishment, unfortunatly the left wingers are trying to turn america into the united socialist states.

I aggree that second hand smoke can be dangerous, but not to the effect some of you seem to think, but this does not change my point above.

Also I dont' know the numbers on $$ generated by tobacco tax, but its got to be over the 31 billion in health care costs.  Also if people don't have their own insurance or money to pay to go to the hospital why do all of us taxpayers have to pay for them??  Lazy people who won't get a job b/c its easier to live off welfare and have babies so they get 300 bucks a piece more from bush's economy incentive piss me off.  These are the real problem with america, not someone smoking in an establishment whose owner allows it.

And banning smoking outside ***!!!!  Despite what some of you think there is no way someone smoking outside is harming your health in any noticeable way.

I smoked for years a pack a day lets see we seem to be going with a 3.75 tax on cigs even though some places its more, like where i live just went up a whole dollar a pack 6 months ago, so 365 days times 4 dollars for easy math times 10 years = holy moly i've payed 14,600 dollars in taxes just for cigs.

Now take that number and you say it costs 10 bucks a pack in health care costs, how when i NEVER once had any smoking related health care costs in the 10 plus years i smoked?

Plus like people have said about insurance my buddy who smokes pays an extra shoot i can't remember exact number but for just himself its 25-50 bucks a week in health insurance and hes only 24.

So to some it all up QUIT trying to tell others how to live their lives!!!!

This goes along with any prohibition.  All prohibition does is make criminals benefit, upstanding citizens are the only ones who suffer from prohibition.

*edit* I almost forgot some places are banning chewing tobacco along with cigs!!  now no one here can tell me chewing tobacco harms anyone but the user.  And as an American supposedly guaranteed to the inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  How can someone tell me, "oh sir excuse me but you can't have that in your lip."  Now if this was private property I would say ok you own this you have the right to tell me knock it off, but this was at some public places.

I wonder what the punishment is for this.  Prolly get 5 years for having a dip at the uni.  America is *EDIT :holysheep: *up in some ways, great in most, but man seems the sheep are learning to vote and sheep like communism, b/c they think everything should just be handed out as if resources were infinite with no one working.  Although It would be funny if america went communist because all the hard workers who have built america would leave then all the sheep would die off in some catastrophe or another.


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