# too much nutes i think...



## oldfogey8 (Nov 19, 2015)

so i have 4 indoor grows under my belt. I have used roots orgaincs green lite for 3 of them and some crap from miracle grow that was supposed to be organic. i have used general hydroponics gobox nutes on all 4 grows. my issue is the taste of my smoke. it isn't bad but it isn't awesome either. so i have 4 clones from my last grow and they are in 2 liter containers of roots organics green lite and i have given them almost no nutes and they actually still look healthy. they have been growing in the pots for a couple of months under just 2 24 watt cfls and i have been trimming the crud out of them to keep them small as i did not want to start another real grow just yet. my question is should i let these go nuteless until i see signs of deficiency when i do start tent growing again? i wonder how that will affect the taste. i am thinking maybe the green lite has enough to keep the plants happy and i am just overloading them. thanks in advance...


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## Grower13 (Nov 19, 2015)

How much of all of those were you using?
Nutrients... PH..... drying and cure(aged at right temp and humidity) all effect taste........


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 19, 2015)

i was using the recommended dosage of the nutes. maybe it is just the nutes are not that good. i didn't really keep an eye on the ph that closely. i was just using the ph paper and tried to keep the solution around 6.5-ish. i cure very slowly using the 'perfect cure every time' method of burping and slowly bringing the rh in the jars down to 55-60. i have been curing my present harvest since 2nd week of sept. just getting to 60% now. the jars smell awesome. if it tasted like that i would have a hard time not being stoned constantly...


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 20, 2015)

There are 3 things that affect flavor. Nutes, dry & cure, and plant genetics. IF you aren't drying your buds properly before beginning curing, that will have a significant effect on the flavor. 

The kind and type of nutes you use will make a difference. Kind being the brand and type being synthetic or organic. It sounds like you have tried to mix both. It has been my experience that regimens that try to use both seldom work as well as wanted. The reason is that the 2 generally oppose each other on the molecular level. Organics rely on the use of microbe activity within the medium, while synthetics often make the soil unfriendly to the microbes.
I don't know if the nutes you are using is "organic" or synthetic. If you like a good "clean" flavor, then you should go fully synthetic, but if you like more of an "organic" flavor, then go with all organic nutrients. Your soil can be organic or soilless medium and still use organics in either one, but If you like organics then beginning with an organic soil that is good quality, some added amendments, then some good organic nutrient tea for boosting.

If you like very flavorful bud, the OG Kush done organic is very tasty(a little earthy, spicy, incense, and berry) The lemon strains have good flavor if you like lemon. I know the Pineapple Chunk is a very tasty flavor when done organic. The Blue strains tend to taste a little fuelly to me when done synthetic but very dark berry flavors when done organic.

However, everyone's sense of taste is different and what might taste really good to me may not taste all that good to you. I have a friend who likes the more "piney" flavors than the earthy, fruity, or sweet incense flavors which are my favorites.

If you want to go strictly organic but don't want to do all the super soil or making stuff, and you want to keep it simple, then you can get away with Using a good organic soil, than add some "Iguana juice" during veg along with some beneficial microbes like Mychorrizae. You can buy the "IJ" and some "Tarantula" from Advanced Nutrients, then during flower, you can use AN's Mother Earth super nutrient tea. add in a little lime at the beginning of veg then again at the beginning of flower and you're set.


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## kaotik (Nov 20, 2015)

firstly; the GO nutes don't need to be PH'd  

i'm curious; do you flush or feed right till harvest?
i know flushing is not looked fondly upon here.. but i always do it, even organic.  *by flushing i just mean no food the last week before crop.

a few of my OD that i used GO on and didn't flush; i wish i had.


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 20, 2015)

so i am looking for the flavors i had from smoke as a kid in the 70's. i bought some 'thai' to start out with because of the fond memory of the thai sticks i had as a kid. 

i have been 'flushing', kaotik. the last grow was this buckeye purple/super buckeye and i didn't feed at all the last few weeks. i may not dry them properly before starting the cure as hushpuppy points out. i think i go into jars a bit early. never see any mold but i worry that i will get past the cure zone so i jar them up... 

funny story about ph'ing the go nutes. the first buckeye purple plant i had was an odd bird. it seemed like it suffered nute lock so i started messing with the ph. i tried higher. i tried lower. nothing worked. i though the strain was just really finicky. then i popped another BP and she turned out fine without much messing with the ph. i used some wood ash to bring the ph up if it was a bit low during flower. i think that first buckeye was just a problem child.


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 20, 2015)

Its going to be pretty hard to get the same flavors that you remember from back in the 70s because the strains have evolved so much.


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 20, 2015)

probably hushpuppy. my memory is probably embellishing as well...


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## kaotik (Nov 20, 2015)

what all are you growing fogey? 
it might just be time for a tasty strain hunt  *strain/pheno hunting is always my favorite type of hunting


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## pcduck (Nov 21, 2015)

> There are 3 things that affect flavor. Nutes, dry & cure, and plant genetics.



I do not agree with this statement. If this statement was true my bud should taste like fish guts and bat guano, and synthetics would taste of heavy metals. They don't.


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 21, 2015)

kaotik-i have grown a bunch of different strains - la confidential, sour kush, master kush, greenhouse seeds thai, and 2 malvenetics strains, buckeye purple and super buckeye. the best tasting so far has been the thai. wondering if it has something to do with the potentcy these days. now that i think of it, i smoked a couple of different strains while i was in the netherlands last year and they had a similar flavor to my grows. maybe my taste buds are the problem too.


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## The Poet (Nov 21, 2015)

Old Fogey8,

   Hushpuppy is right about mixing nutes. 
Don't mix them but use 'one kind' throughout the plants lives.

   I had a similar experience a few years ago. 
I went from miracle grow to Canna nutes and the plants nearly died their reaction was so bad.
 It was not the synthetic then the organic but the mixing of the two fertilizers in the pot.
 The residual miracle grow mixed with the new canna stuff was a bad mix.

   That said... 
I use Canna Bio-flores now for flowering but Espoma garden tone for vegging!~ 

   They have been out but yesterday...
 I was at Home Depot checking the fertilizer shelf and there they were! 
An entire shelf, filled with a new stocking of my Espoma garden tone so I bought two bags. 
One lasts for nearly a year but I'm going to stock up because my plants are greener this morning after top dressing them with a little Garden tone. They are much happier, they really are. 

   Now I can't explain why the two fertilizers mix well but they do! 
They are both organic and I do slack off on one before starting a 'reduced amount' of the other, then increasing it gradually when I flip.
 I guess it is experience, they just 'work' {the plants really like it!}
and the Espoma garden tone costs $10. and lasts a year...
rather than $40 for Bio-veg which will do one crop! 
It's not about saving money either the plants will tell you if they are happy. 


                            Listen to your plants...


                                                The Poet...&#9835;


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 21, 2015)

thanks poet. i am out of the gobox nutes for veg at this time so it might be a good time to change up. i am planning on starting my tent back up after thanksgiving here.


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## Gooch (Nov 21, 2015)

I am not understanding something. You are using soil right? if you are using soil why are you not feeding the soil? why would you use chemical nutes in an organic style grow? I would recommend using a coco its similar to dirt except it has no nutes so you would use chemical nutes. 
Its my understanding that you feed the microbes in the soil and they feed the plant this is soil, hydro you feed the plant and the microbes


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 22, 2015)

watching the harley smith presentation now. thanks gooch.

gobox is supposed to be organic. i prolly messed the whole organic part up a bit though. i was using a couple of additives that are not organic during flowering(open seasame and the other two nutes that go along with open seasame). oddly enough, i was thinking last night while i smoked a bit of a joint from some buds off a couple plants i had outside. i gave them no nutes. just water. they were clones mind you so they vegged the same(kinda) as the smoke from my indoor grow. the flavor was very similar to my indoor flowers. so now i am suspecting my taste buds. i also read somewhere that by age 60, you lose half your taste buds. so maybe i am just dying off...


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## pcduck (Nov 22, 2015)

not many microbes with synthetics (hydro).

With organics you can grow two ways. Feeding the plant, which is a lot like synthetics or feed the soil which is quite different. Whatever way you decide stick with it. Don't mix the 3


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## The Poet (Nov 22, 2015)

Half of my taste buds gone at age 60! 
   My God!  I am 64, maybe I should change my user name to 'prehistoric old codger.'
 Hmm I still have all my hair and most of my teeth however.
 How old are you?


                            Jack the Knife...


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 22, 2015)

i am 50, have all my teeth but probably less than half my hair...


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## Gooch (Nov 22, 2015)

I suspect the problem with your tastes will be solved by watching the videos, listen when he talks about potassium and when to use it. Its also critical to understand drying and curing because that can change everything also. I dont think your taste buds are dead lol


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 23, 2015)

yes gooch. i think i can solve some of my issues with the info in those 2 videos. in addition to the potassium part, i found the brix stuff interesting. i noticed my tomatoes and peppers had a short shelf life. i didn't really fertilize the veg garden and i am wondering if my brix was too low. another thing about brix i think he mentioned is that bugs don't like a brix of 12% or higher. oddly enough i had to plants growing in my tent. the spider mites liked my super buckeye plant but did not bother at all with the purple buckeye. i was told by the breeder that the purple was a light feeder but i fed them both the same. i wonder if the 'extra' nutes the purple was getting contributed to a higher brix thus making the plant unpalatable to the mites.


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 23, 2015)

PC; I believe you would argue with a stop sign brother :doh:


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## pcduck (Nov 23, 2015)

Hushpuppy said:


> PC; I believe you would argue with a stop sign brother :doh:



Not arguing. Just correcting misinformation, HP


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 23, 2015)

You didn't correct any mis-information. You just said that my statement was wrong. If I am wrong then give the right statement so that I can know as well  I'm not above learning, and I'm certainly not above being wrong,,,, *at least once a year *:hubba:


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## pcduck (Nov 24, 2015)

Hushpuppy said:


> You didn't correct any mis-information. You just said that my statement was wrong. If I am wrong then give the right statement so that I can know as well  I'm not above learning, and I'm certainly not above being wrong,,,, *at least once a year *:hubba:



I already have given the statement. You said the nutes/ferts impact the taste and I disagreed. Because if they did my buds would taste like fish guts and bat guano and they dont. That is correcting misinformation.


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 24, 2015)

No my friend, that is a *red herring*, a simple argument as opposed to a concise disagreement. That is like saying "I know there is no god because if there was I would have a better life right now". If my statement is wrong, please tell us what is the correct statement on the question of what gives plants their flavor.


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## pcduck (Nov 24, 2015)

HP, you said that the nutes impacted the taste not me. Why don't you tell us how this is done? As my bud does not taste like what it is grown in(fish guts and bat guano and other amendments) and that's a fact. Not a "red herring".


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 25, 2015)

I already explained my statement: 
There are *3 things that affect flavor*. Nutes, dry & cure, and plant genetics. IF you aren't drying your buds properly before beginning curing, that will have a significant effect on the flavor. 

*The kind and type of nutes you use will make a difference*. Kind being the brand and type being synthetic or organic. It sounds like you have tried to mix both. It has been my experience that regimens that try to use both seldom work as well as wanted. The reason is that the 2 generally oppose each other on the molecular level. Organics rely on the use of microbe activity within the medium, while synthetics often make the soil unfriendly to the microbes.
I don't know if the nutes you are using is "organic" or synthetic. If you like a good "clean" flavor, then you should go fully synthetic, but if you like more of an "organic" flavor, then go with all organic nutrients. Your soil can be organic or soilless medium and still use organics in either one, but If you like organics then beginning with an organic soil that is good quality, some added amendments, then some good organic nutrient tea for boosting.
Let me simplify it for you my friend: *I never said that the nutes give the flavors and smell to the plants. I said these things affect the flavor and smells*. I have grown MJ using several different nute brands, and I have grown using organics, and I have and do currently grow using a specific regimen of both synthetic and organic nutrients. With each change in nutes, I have noticed a subtle difference in flavors, with my biggest difference in flavors coming in when I used organic nutrients.

I always use the same method of drying and curing, so that takes dry and cure out of the equation. I have also grown the same strains (from clone) using both synthetic and organic nutrients, and I (along with my patients) have experienced a significant difference in flavors.

The reason your plants don't smell like fish is because the chelation process breaks down the molecular compounds that give the raw ferts their unique smells and flavors. Those basic elements are then used to build new molecular compounds in the plants that give the plants their unique smells and flavors.

I used to live in a house where there was a cherry tree that grew right beside the house. When I moved in, the owner said the tree hadn't produced cherries in several years. That summer, the tree produced so many fat, sweet, beautiful cherries that we couldn't get all of them. They were amazingly good, and the home owner was amazed as the tree hadn't produced cherries in several years. What we found out was the tree was growing directly beside and in contact with the septic tank, and was feeding off of the human waste.
The following year we moved to a new home and the tree never produced another cherry again. 

The tree was able to pull nutrients from the surrounding soil but not until we supplied it with the extra, and right nutrients every time we flushed the toilet, did it produce the big sweet cherries.


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## Gooch (Nov 25, 2015)

Yes it would be a ridiculous statement to say that nutes have no effect on flavor, the flavors and potency doesnt get delivered by a thc fairy the plant turns the nutes into elements that if in the right proportions will result in dank.
Some of the reason you might have noticed some different flavors in organic and hydro, is because most people are over feeding in hydro, which causes a overabundance of nitrites built up in the plant rather then using its energy to produce sugars because all base nutes using luxury levels of nitrate nitrogen and in order to convert the nitrates into nitrites it used the energy of photosynthesis, which could be used to make sugars instead


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 25, 2015)

i still can't get past the super-septic-all-delicious-fat cherries...


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## pcduck (Nov 26, 2015)

> Let me simplify it for you my friend: I never said that the nutes give the flavors and smell to the plants. I said these things affect the flavor and smells.





> If you like a good "clean" flavor, then you should go fully synthetic, but if you like more of an "organic" flavor, then go with all organic nutrients.



HP,  I guess I am just confused by what you mean by "clean flavor" and "organic flavor" and how you determined this?


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 26, 2015)

I really can't describe that well. There are 2 distinct flavor characteristics that I have always experienced to some degree as long as I have been smoking. I have discussed this with my patients and they say the same thing, but each person tastes their own experience. The flavor characteristics of MJ smoke breaks down on a tree, with the top division being:

1. Organic:
1a.  strong or weak:                     
These variations are caused by individual palates of smokers and the elemental potency determined genetically within the plant 
2. Synthetic
2a.  clean or dirty:
These variations are caused by differing amounts of chemical elements in the solution going to the plants. And by the level of dry/cure done.

I have tasted bud that had a fuelly or piney flavor but had strong undertones of synthetic chemicals in the buds. It is a distinct but indescribable taste as it can vary depending on which elements are stronger in the material. And I have had several versions of organic grown bud that had a richer flavor that isn't present in synthetic grown plants. 

Maybe I am too much of a bud connoisseur  

If the smoke is very "clean" tasting, then there is no telltale sign of chemicals in the material. the grower did a good job of taking it out or keeping it out. However, there is very little to no general flavor that is supposed to come with that bud. The flavor is rather bland as opposed to "very berry", "very fruity", "very piney".

With organic flavor, it can be really strong berry, fruity, citrusy, but the flavor is richer, sometimes a similar flavor of "natural rich earth" comes through ahead of or after the featured flavor. The weaker side of this would be a blandness that is similar to the "clean" synthetic flavor. These two are often confused for each other by those who are less focused on MJ flavor.

This is what happens when I smoke OG Kush. I get all scientific and artistic. I think this bud wakes up parts of my brain that I don't normally use. Unfortunately, it interrupts other parts that that I normally use like typing :doh:


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 26, 2015)

I tell ya what Oldfogey8, Those were the best, plumpest, sweetest cherries I have ever eaten. We picked and jarred jam and jelly until it was running out our ears. And I hated the day that the last jar was eaten. Even the birds had all that they could eat. The owner told us that he never remembered those cherries tasting that good


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