# Leaves are Dying Fast. Crusty Brown Spots



## Hackerman (Jan 23, 2018)

I am having some issues with my CBD plants. I have 3 of them in the room with 13 other plants. The other plants are a Lemon OG and they are doing great. Everything is on the same water and feed schedule.

I pH my mix and I keep it between 6 and 7. My water is high so it's always acid, never base. The bloom booster I use takes pH down but I still usually need to add pH down to get it where I want it.

I jump around between 6.2 for the Cal Mag to about 6.9 or even 7.

I feed 1/2 dose of Fox Farms Big Bloom (supposedly organic) and 3ml/gal of  CalMag each time I water. This has been pretty regular for several years and seems to work for most. If I get a light eater like Satori, I cut back a little but if I get a heavy eater, I use the bloom boosters to make up the difference. Although, I have been thinking about trying a new nute and a new routine, this has been pretty solid for a few years.

And, like I said, the rest of the room, other then the CBD plants are doing great. 

So, obviously this no THC ditchweed hemp plant is 'sensitive'. LOL

I often have some yellowing of the fan and secondary leave as flowering progresses but these plants started to yellow early. They are in week 4 and one is still green but heading yellow. One is yellow and the third is dying with crusty spots.

This looks like classic pH problems to me.

It's hard to tell from these pics but most everything is green. Even the buds on the CBD plants (3 on the right). It's the fan leaves and now the second leaves turning yellow. And, that one pheno has the crusty spots.

Oh yeah, these are 3 different phenos. My clone mothers.

I don't know. Doesn't look good. Love to hear any comments.

Sorry about the yellow pics. Another reason to go LED. LOL 

View attachment sickcbd-1.jpg


View attachment sickcbd-2.jpg


View attachment sickcbd-3.jpg


View attachment sickcbd-4.jpg


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## Rosebud (Jan 23, 2018)

View attachment Defiency chart.jpg


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## Hackerman (Jan 23, 2018)

You think it's a deficiency? I thought it was way too much of something. Or, maybe everything.

It is ditchweed hemp. It's used to growing on the roadside and being fertilized by beer cans and fast food wrappers. Maybe this Fox Farms caviar is too much for it.

I am leaning toward too much of something. No?

EDIT: Although, it didn't get the gradual tip burn and get worse like most over nute problems develop. Happened pretty quickly.


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## Rosebud (Jan 23, 2018)

Hackerman, come to the light! Switch to organics, you don't ph no up down, nothing. worm ****, for N, bat **** for P, other good stuff... Come on.
 By the looks of that chart it is potasium?


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## Muddy Paws (Jan 23, 2018)

My guess would be that your roots for those fan leaves have reached the bottom and are getting less water and/or they are stuck in the basin feeding on salts that are in the drainage or they aren't getting enough nutrients (somehow) i'd get rid of those leaves and wait to see if the next set are affected the same way.

 Mine do this when I flower them in pots that I've vegged the plant in for too long and put it into flowering anyway without transplanting into a bigger pot with fresh soil.


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## umbra (Jan 23, 2018)

ph issue with nute lockout. you are using GH 3 part? Do you water enough for 20% run off and ph water only every 3rd watering? Definitely root bound as well


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## Hackerman (Jan 23, 2018)

I agree with the pH but I'm not so sure about the root bound. Maybe I don't know what root bound really means. That's certainly possible.

Here is why.... When I switch from veg to 12/12 I go from a #1 pot to a #3. About 1 gallon to 3 gallon. Little less. Anyway, after I transplant them and flip to 12/12 I don't get a lot of root growth. The extra dirt is more for water control than root space.

When I harvest I can pull the rootball out and it's almost the same size and even shape as the #1 pot that it came from. Maybe some little growth but never to the edge or the bottom of the pot. Never. I wish the roots would grow more but they don't LOL

So, unless I am misunderstanding root bound, I think we are good on that one.

As for over nuted and locked out..... I couldn't agree more but my nute routine is 1/2 what most do and the other plants are as healthy as a horse and love the routine.

I think your 100% right on over nute and lockout, though, I need to toss some old beer cans in those pots. LOL This hemp just doesn't like caviar.

What is GH 3 part? Nutes? All these plants have ever had is some CalMag and 1/2 doses of Fox Farms Big Bloom (Organic, supposedly). .No bloom boosters. Nothing else. I only water 2 or 3 times a week.

I usually pH the water to 6-7 but sometimes I'm lazy and just don't do it. LOL

Yes, I always water to run off. I let runoff sit in the trays for an hour or so and suck up anything that might be left, which is almost never.

I'm going to put these on straight water for the next few waterings. You agree?

Thanks


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 24, 2018)

Hackerman said:


> ...All these plants have ever had is some CalMag and 1/2 doses of Fox Farms Big Bloom (Organic, supposedly). .No bloom boosters. Nothing else. I only water 2 or 3 times a week.



  No food?  I think they are starving to death.  Cal mag is...well only cal and mag.  Big Bloom (it is organic) has almost nothing in it--0.0-0.5-0.7.  They have received virtually no food during their life.  Is this your normal "nutrient" regime?


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## umbra (Jan 24, 2018)

they need N big time, P and K look non existent, which why I thought nute lock out. It is lacking everything. Good news, its not too late to fix it.


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## Hackerman (Jan 24, 2018)

Duh, sometimes you need to be b-slapped to start thinking. That Bloom is not very much food is it? Been doing the same thing so long, I guess I stopped thinking.

I have been using this routine for 3 or 4 years and it's been working great.

I do supplement with the bloom boosters, Open Sesame (5-45-19) for weeks 1, 2, 3. Beastie Bloomz (0-50-30) weeks 4, 5, 6 and Cha Ching (9-50-10) weeks 7, 8 and 9.

However, I use these VERY lightly. MAYBE once a week. And, in half dose at a time. My crops have always been healthy (you've seen pictures) and if they get a little off, I use the boosters and if they get a little tip burn, I back it off. Been working for 3 or 4 years (since I've been a member here). I use Happy Frog soil.

And, I need to re-neg on what I said about these plants. They have had a couple small doses of Open Sesame.

OK, so you guys really think that looks like a plant that's underfed?

What do you suggest?

Thanks again for the help.

Also, I have been considering changing my routine anyway just for the sake of change. I guess nutes are a good as any place to start. What kind of nutes do you guys use? I was actually thinking of trying Jacks. It sure has a lot of supporters in the Canna world.

Again, thank you.


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## Hackerman (Jan 24, 2018)

OK, just to try to give you as much accurate info as possible, I went back and looked at my schedule (I keep a log).......

These were transplanted from #1 to #3 pots Dec 22. Almost 5 weeks ago. I use Happy Frog soil.

I watered with 1/3 of the dose of Big Bloom??? ***, why bother? When I think of the money I have probably wasted. Well, you'll never see tip burn from too much nutes on my plants. LMAO

Anyway, I use 4 tablespoons in 3 gallons. The recommended dose on the bottle is 4 tablespoons per gallon. I watered 14 times in 32 days so, an average of every 2.3 days. Each time with 3ml/gallon of CalMag (I think that's OK) and 4 TBSP of Big Bloom.

On 4 occasions, about a week apart I added bloom booster to the mix. Usually about 2/3 of the recommended dose.

Like I said before, after mixing the nutes, I usually pH the mix to 6-7. 

Again, thanks


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## 2RedEyes (Jan 24, 2018)

I&#8217;m trying MegaCrop from greenleaf nutrients. A dry all in one nute that seems to be working for me. I have had trouble getting dry nutes to dissolve in the past but this seems to do fine. Cheap too and seems pretty ph stable. It brings my tap water right to where it needs to be. They had a promotion going on for a while, free 230 gram bag for the price of shipping, don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;s still going on.


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## Hackerman (Jan 24, 2018)

Thanks RedEyes. I'll put it on the list to review. I actually get more sediment out of the liquid food than I do the powder. The Big Bloom always leaves settlement.

Here is a more color accurate pic of what I have. As you can see, the rest of the crop is doing great. The 3 CBD plants on the right are golden yellow....

Also, a little more info.

The bottom leaves are still green. The problem exists only on the leaves that are exposed to the direct light.

The third plant (closest one) is still pretty green but I see crusty spots forming. 

View attachment Image1.jpg


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 24, 2018)

How about going organic, like Rosebud mentioned?


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## Rosebud (Jan 24, 2018)

Thank you THG, i am getting my feeling hurt here, Hackerman doesn't want any of my special CBD seeds and he won't take my advice. LOL.... Maybe he will listen to you.


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## umbra (Jan 24, 2018)

Hackerman said:


> Duh, sometimes you need to be b-slapped to start thinking. That Bloom is not very much food is it? Been doing the same thing so long, I guess I stopped thinking.
> 
> I have been using this routine for 3 or 4 years and it's been working great.
> 
> ...



There is a bit more to it than just being under fed. When a plant stresses from lack of water or nutrients, they send a chemical pheromone for lack of a better word, that attracts bugs and disease. It is 1 of the triggers for russets, and then you might as well throw everything away and start over.


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## Hackerman (Jan 24, 2018)

I have no idea what "going organic" means. LOL I buy Happy Frog.... that's organic isn't it? LOL OK, Rosie. I always listen to the women I love. 25 words or less..... what's 'going organic'?

Quit trying to scare me, umbra. You work in the medical field. When someone has a sore toe do you tell them, "Yep, gangreen's next. Probably going to loose that leg".  ROTFLMAO

Especially bugs. I hate bugs. I can deal with other stuff but... I hate bugs. Don't scare me with bugs. LOL

So, flush or feed?

And, why only on the leaves that are exposed to the light? Why is the rest of the plant (the bottom and back side) still nice and green? 

Fortunately, I only have about 3 weeks left until I start harvesting these CBD plants. I plan to take it in stages at 8, 9 and 10 weeks. If something doesn't change, I won't make it 10 weeks. Might not make 8.

OK, straight up question.... I have heard that giving plants nitrogen during the late flower cycle messes something up in the flowering routine. Something to do with enzymes.

Do you guys know if that's true?

Thanks again


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## Rosebud (Jan 24, 2018)

25 words or less? Soil, my fav:https://www.sunlightsupply.com/shop/product/nectar-for-the-gods-blend-4,  see if you can find it locally.  Do you have compost at your home? Worm bin? if not ok. This is the tea i use to feed,  This recipe is for one gallon. I use the heavier dose now in flower but used the lighter ones in veg.

1   1 tsp unsulfered Molasses

1-2 TBLSeabird Guano, the one highest in P

2-4 TBL Liquid Kelp/potash  

2 tsp  Azomite micronized 

2-4 TBL Liquid bone meal. 0-12-0

Bubble for 24-48 hours.  Don't let sit, if it smells bad, don't use it on cannabis. I throw mine on the ivy. It can go bad.

Was that 25 words?


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## umbra (Jan 24, 2018)

Hackerman said:


> I have no idea what "going organic" means. LOL I buy Happy Frog.... that's organic isn't it? LOL OK, Rosie. I always listen to the women I love. 25 words or less..... what's 'going organic'?
> 
> Quit trying to scare me, umbra. You work in the medical field. When someone has a sore toe do you tell them, "Yep, gangreen's next. Probably going to loose that leg".  ROTFLMAO
> 
> ...



To a certain degree it is true that less N in the last stages of flower is important in setting the flowers into their final stage, but since they are in such need, I'd do it anyway. Because you are right, they won't make it otherwise.


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## bombbudpuffa (Jan 24, 2018)

My first thought when looking at the first pic was over watering.


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## Hackerman (Jan 24, 2018)

@Rosie... that was 26 words. Go back and edit. LMAO j/k I will read up on it. My biggest problem in remaining stealth in my space is odor. And, it's never flowering odor. It always seems to be the dirt and soil. Especially after a change or transplant. Anything that smells a lot is going to be tough. Outside, the few months that it's habitable, is very busy with traffic. Even dumping my dirt when I transplant is an operation in itself. Lots of Park Rangers are trained to look for that stuff. Just tossing piles of pot-shaped rootballs in my back yard is going to bring a lot of attention.... fast. LOL Even a mulch bin outside would be very black against the white snow in the winter when I need dirt for a new crop. Sux to be in this state but for now, I need to deal with it.

I was actually thinking of going with a soiless method but it's a far away thought. LOL

Thanks. I will check it out and ask you if I have any questions. I am definitely an organic kind of guy so it's right in line with the things I believe in.

@umbra. The only thing I have with a shot of N is the Fox Farms Grow Big that I feed during veg (probably need to review that as well). 6-4-4

I just ordered a small quantity of Jack's Classic Blossom Booster 10-30-20. At least I'll have something to get me through until I decide what nute/program/whatever that I'm going to go with.

Either way, I just watered yesterday so it will be a day or 2 before I water again. 

Thanks again for all the help.

The big question still begs to be answered..... why are the other plants in the room so nice and green and healthy on this exact same routine?


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## umbra (Jan 24, 2018)

Hackerman said:


> I have no idea what "going organic" means. LOL I buy Happy Frog.... that's organic isn't it? LOL OK, Rosie. I always listen to the women I love. 25 words or less..... what's 'going organic'?
> 
> Quit trying to scare me, umbra. You work in the medical field. When someone has a sore toe do you tell them, "Yep, gangreen's next. Probably going to loose that leg".  ROTFLMAO
> 
> ...


My discussion for work would be more like, it's broken. They haven't made parts for over 20 years. If you haven't made your money with it by now, you never will. Replacement is $500,000 and I can have it for you by tomorrow. What do you want to do?


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## Hackerman (Jan 24, 2018)

That's funny. Those are the exact words my doctor used to describe my body. LOL


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 24, 2018)

Rosebud said:


> Thank you THG, i am getting my feeling hurt here, Hackerman doesn't want any of my special CBD seeds and he won't take my advice. LOL.... Maybe he will listen to you.



LOL--apparently he needs to be b-slapped....and you are way to nice for that.

Hackerman, spraying your plants with organic teas can help ward off bugs.  My outdoor plants get regular foliar sprays with organic teas and I have not had any bug problems at all.


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## umbra (Jan 24, 2018)

Hackerman said:


> @Rosie... that was 26 words. Go back and edit. LMAO j/k I will read up on it. My biggest problem in remaining stealth in my space is odor. And, it's never flowering odor. It always seems to be the dirt and soil. Especially after a change or transplant. Anything that smells a lot is going to be tough. Outside, the few months that it's habitable, is very busy with traffic. Even dumping my dirt when I transplant is an operation in itself. Lots of Park Rangers are trained to look for that stuff. Just tossing piles of pot-shaped rootballs in my back yard is going to bring a lot of attention.... fast. LOL Even a mulch bin outside would be very black against the white snow in the winter when I need dirt for a new crop. Sux to be in this state but for now, I need to deal with it.
> 
> I was actually thinking of going with a soiless method but it's a far away thought. LOL
> 
> ...



The other plants lucked out and got enough nutrients stored in the soil. I did organics for more 20 years. It's not so much the nutrients being used as it is the micro organisms that are either attracted by the nutes or by other less developed micro organisms. They feed on the other micro organisms. 
Here: http://microbeorganics.com/


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## Rosebud (Jan 24, 2018)

Hackerman, when you have time look at Duck's stuff. He is a master organic grower. You can usually find him in the bong hitters club. There are good books, such as true living organics, and many stickies in the organic section when you have time.


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## umbra (Jan 24, 2018)

Duck is going to run some of my stuff.


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## Rosebud (Jan 24, 2018)

that will be epic and will need to come with a warning Umbra.


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## umbra (Jan 24, 2018)

lol


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

Thanks gang. Sorry I quit answering last night. Had a gig at 8. We just celebrated 9 years of playing the same night at the same club. LOL 9 years of Thursday hangovers. LOL

Anyway, thanks for the help. We'll see what happens.

unbra, I was reading somewhere (maybe I'm mistaken) that you are somehow associated with Med Tree breeders. Is that true? If so, maybe you could ask them what kind of eaters these continuum plants are. Heavy or light.

These plants are showing the signs of both under and over fed. In fact, until HG noticed what I was feeding, we all thought it was an over feed problem. Now, we are saying it's under fed.

If we are wrong and they are over fed, adding more nutes is going to kill them. And, if we are right and they need more food, if they don't get it, they'll die. I'm so confused.

And, they sure look like they are over fed and nute burned. But, then again, over fed and under fed look the same. Odd this plant. Over water and under water can often look the same as well.

Would testing the brix tell us anything?

I keep going back to what I believe is probably the heritage of this strain.... road side hemp. Ditch weed. LOL Are weeds big eaters? Do dandy lions eat more than the flowers and grass around them. 

The very first signs of this problem are the crusty spots. Not yellowing of the leaves. I'm not familiar with crusty spots (fortunately). Is that a nourishment sign.

I really need to nail this down before I flower the remaining clones or I'll end up with a flowering room full of dead plants.

I do have 3 of these. Maybe I'll feed some and starve another.

I'm so confused. LOL


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

Beside the refractometer for testing brix, I have a soil pH test kit. I never thought those things work and I don't know why I would care about the soil pH but, I do have it in case it would help. It's probably 10 years old.


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

I am doing some searching. Would the proper term for what I am calling 'crunchy spot' actually be 'necrosis'?

Everything I am seeing says Cal-Mag deficiency. I do give them 3ml per gal of Cal Mag every watering.

So, I am searching 'cannabis necrosis'.


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## umbra (Jan 25, 2018)

Hackerman said:


> Thanks gang. Sorry I quit answering last night. Had a gig at 8. We just celebrated 9 years of playing the same night at the same club. LOL 9 years of Thursday hangovers. LOL
> 
> Anyway, thanks for the help. We'll see what happens.
> 
> ...



Lol, I'm not associated with MedTree or any other breeder.  I like their work same as I do a few other breeders. Brix reflectometer will measure sugar content in the sap of the plant. The trick is knowing what it is telling you, and what to do about it. I use mine for looking at the specific gravity when I brew beer, not growing plants.
There have been times when I was at the same point you are, not knowing if it was over or under fed. You have to start with the assumption you don't know where the plants are at nute wise. So I would start with a flush with ph'd water and then start a regular nute program. If you are going organic, then get what you need in and start. The problem with organics for many people is the lag it takes to start to see them recovering and improving.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 25, 2018)

Under or over fed?  I think you need to look at what they have been fed to determine that.  If you had been on a regular nutrient schedule with say GH Flora Series or similar, I think you could look at them being overfed.  However, as you have fed them almost nothing, I am not seeing how this could possibly be overfeeding--except maybe an overdose of P as the Cha-Ching, Open Sesame, and Beastie Bloom have high doses of P.  Otherwise, I don't know where your plants are getting any N, K or other nutrients it needs.

If you go organic, foliar feeding can help with the immediate needs of the plants (and as I already mentioned, organic foliar sprays can deter bugs).  I really encourage you to look into organics.  Rosebud mentioned "True Living Organics" by the Rev.  This is a book worth owning.  Some of the organic growing books get too technical for me, but this one is very readable.  Rosebud and Duck sold me on organics--don't see me growing any other way now.


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

I have looked a a couple zillion images and it all comes back to 2 things....

Cal-Mag deficiency. Which is probably not it since that's the only nute that they have received in the actual recommended dose. Although canna doesn't take in Cal-Mag well at high pH and I am usually closer to 7 than 6. They like 6.2 - 6.3.

The other thing is... potassium deficiency. And, like HG says, duh, do we really need to scratch our heads on this one. Red stems were another symptom and that's also a P def. The only thing that doesn't say P deficiency is that it is supposed to start at the bottom and these plants all have the problem starting at the top. 

All the bottoms of these plants are very healthy. No spots. No yellowing. Whatever this problem is, it is very very bad on every leaf that is exposed to direct light and almost non-existent on leaves that are shaded.

Does that say anything?

I grew with Miracle Grow for 4 decades and never had a problem. LMAO

I'm right in the middle of flowering and there's no way I can switch to organics now. You've seen how crowded I am. There's no changing things in this room once you get started. LOL I'm looking at it for next grow. I'm still even looking at some kind of soiless. Both ends of the stick, I guess. LOL

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions.


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## umbra (Jan 25, 2018)

yes the crunchy parts are necrosis. And you already know that the cal/mag deficiency is due to too high of a ph, not the lack of ca/mag. The most immediate thing you can do is get your ph right.


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

And, I do that how? Just start pHing to 6.2-6.3 with the next watering?

Or, should I flush with 6.2 water?

Thanks. I owe you guys a drink when I get out there.


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## umbra (Jan 25, 2018)

I would just start watering with ph'd water and give it 20% runoff. So not a complete flush but enough to give the ph'd water a chance to make a difference.


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

Cool, thanks.


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

HG says feed. So I am going use just pH water one while I pH feed the other. I'll try to find something high in K.


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

Something else......

I read an article not long ago about how too much light can be bad for an indoor garden.

More light will create more photosynthesis. With more photosynthesis, the plants will transpire more and therefore, take up more water, nutes, etc.

If the other limiting factors in a grow room do not keep up with the increased photosynthesis, the plants will suffer.

I'm not sure how 100% true the article was but it made sense. I'll link it if you're interested.

The only reason I mention it is because perhaps this explains why the necrosis is only present on leaves that are directly exposed to the light. This is a 1000w light in a small 4x4 room. I usually run it at 700 watts (adjustable ballast) but this grow I thought I would run it at the full 1000w.

Just tossing it out.

Also, after thinking about what HG said about starving the plants. And, looking at the feeding schedule, I just have to agree. I'm a logical kind of person and this just simply makes sense.

I just checked the veg nute I use and it's pretty light also. I'll be using Jack's for the rest of this grow and maybe next. It should be here tomorrow.

We'll watch the plant that I'm starving and see what happens compared to the ones I'm feeding.


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## umbra (Jan 25, 2018)

The instruction for using the General Hydroponics nutrients in very small print says, Troubleshooting factors to consider:
"Arid, bright, and hot environments cause plants to drink more water than if they were grown in a humid, dim, and cool one. Thus gardeners should use LESS concentrated nutrient solution when growing conditions are more intense." You are 180* backwards on this.


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

I'm confused. Actually, that's exactly what I was doing wasn't it? 

I was feeding a WAYYYYYY less concentrated nutrient solution. 1/3 and 1/4 of what was recommended. So, diluted that it wasn't even enough to feed the plants. Almost plain water.      Or do I misunderstand?

But it does support the thought that plants will transpire more in brighter light. So, in the future, I should continue to use a less concentrated solution. Just not SOOO diluted like I was.

I don't know how you guys feel about Jack's Classic (or Peters or whatever) but my plan is to use Jack's Bloomer Boost at about 1/2 the recommended dose and see what happens.

You think that's reasonable?

I'm also thinking about turning the light back down to 700. I never had these problems at 700w setting. Maybe just a coincidence.


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## umbra (Jan 25, 2018)

From what you said previously, I would say no you were not doing that. It was so little of nutes, you can't even consider it close to the same thing.
Don't know anything about Jack's. Peter's will work, but far from optimal.


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## Hackerman (Jan 25, 2018)

From what I have read, Jack's is just the retail version of Peter's.

What would you recommend for a nute?


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## umbra (Jan 25, 2018)

Fox farm is very good. But you need the complete line, not just 1 product. Some people got upset when they realized all their products are not organic. I wouldn't recommending mixing different manufactures products.


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## Hackerman (Jan 26, 2018)

I have been using Fox Farm complete line, I think. Maybe just not enough of it. 

I start with FF Grow Big in veg (any comments on that, HG) and then in flower I use the 3 boom boosters and Big Bloom. I even use FF Happy Frog dirt.

I don't know if they have any other every day type nutes like the Big Bloom. I'll go check it out.

I don't mine spending the money on these fancy nutes but people have been ranting about Jacks and Peters for years. And, I mean good growers, too. Not just skanks. It's supposed to be perfect for cannabis.

I'll go to the FF web site and see what else they have.

I have always been a light feeder. It's not usually a bad thing but I may have taken it too far.

I have been wanting to make some changes in my grow for some time. I guess this is forcing me to do it, now.


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## umbra (Jan 26, 2018)

So with FF 3 part for soil, veg schedule should be Grow Big and Big Bloom, not just Grow Big. Flower should be Big Bloom and Tiger Bloom.


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## Hackerman (Jan 26, 2018)

Thanks umbra. I did use the Tiger a couple years ago but when the bottle ran out, I stopped using that and started on the 3 bloom boosters instead.

Maybe I'll pick up some Tiger to finish off this run. I hate to change nute brands mid stream. I can't see that being a great idea.

I did have a stroke of good luck. The guy from Med Tree who bred the Continuum contacted me and I was able to talk to him. He said the Continuum was a light eater but not so much that he had to change any feeding schedules. So, I take that as a normal/light eater.

I didn't want to pound him with a lot of questions so I just asked about the feeding. Still, it was nice of him to offer help. Maybe he'll comment more.


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## umbra (Jan 26, 2018)

Beyond the FF nutes, I'd recommend EM1 and Great White


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 26, 2018)

I think I would go with the Tiger Bloom and the Big Bloom, like umbra mentioned for the duration.  This way, you are at least staying with the Fox Farm brand.  Do you actually need the Cal-Mag?  Are you using RO water? 

I use Big Bloom during the entire grow.  I  am growing organic now and use a lot of the recipes in "True Living Organics".  Big Bloom is an ingredient in most of The Rev's teas.  I highly recommend this book--you might want to check it out on Amazon.

I have not had problems like you mentioned using a 1000W light in 16 sq ft.  In fact this run, I have been considering using both the 1000W HPS and 2 LEDs in a 4 x 4 tent to flower.  However, it could be that the strains you are growing are just more sensitive to light.  Turning the light down could help and the only downside is less yield.


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## Hackerman (Jan 26, 2018)

1000w is not too much for this room. Or, any room this size. But, right now it is.

Think of it this way. More light, more photosynthesis. Faster transpiration. OK, I can see that, if you're healthy.

Compare to human. Walking or running is easy. Walking with a cold is OK, but running when your sick is really hard on everything from your muscles to your lungs.

So, turning down the light during crisis is, like you said... good for the crisis. Not so good for yield.

This also makes sense on why the leaves that are exposed to the direct light suffer the most. The underside of these plants are showing zero of these signs. I'll try to snap a pic later.

Either way....It's all about sick plants... not too much light.

OK, nutes.......

I went to the Fox Farms web site and looked at their recommended feeding schedule. OMG!!!!!! 
That feeding schedule seems absurd to me. I don't believe I have EVER fed anything that much. Not my pot, not my outdoor herbs, veggies or flowers. Not even my roses. Holy Cow.

I feel like that is McDonalds telling me I should eat at least 10 Big Macs a day with 20 orders of fries and.... well, let's not forget 15 milkshakes. LMAO

OK, so, maybe I need to change. LOL

Take a look at this feeding schedule. If you both think this is reasonable, I'll follow this (ease into it) and see what happens.

I would imagine under this feeding schedule, every plant would be dead in days. LMAO

This seems like such an overkill. 

View attachment Fox Farms Nutrient Chart.jpg


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## umbra (Jan 26, 2018)

all u need is grow big, big bloom, and tiger bloom. Forget the rest. Not confusing at all.


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## Hackerman (Jan 26, 2018)

As for CalMag..... Hushpuppy makes me do it. Since my first grow here and the power in his posts. He got me started and I am afraid to stop.

I don't use RO water. I could never afford that. Our water here is more than gas or electric. Horrible place to live. And, the city water is about the worse in the country. We fail the tests all the time and the City just forges the reports (according to everyone who works there). No one drinks the water. Showering in it is like a swimming pool. I let all my water sit in gallon jugs with bubblers in them for days before using them. The bubblers run 24/7. My city water costs me almost $20 per 100 CF.

I should probably look at that as part of the problem. But, I have been growing on this city water for 50 years, almost. I've had good and bad grows. Still, I should take a closer look.


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## Hackerman (Jan 26, 2018)

umbra said:


> all u need is grow big, big bloom, and tiger bloom. Forget the rest. Not confusing at all.



Yeah, I should have said.... just the green. I do have the purple (boosters if you think I should). Nothing in orange.


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## umbra (Jan 26, 2018)

Try it without the purple and see how it does. You can always try it again with the purple.


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## Hackerman (Jan 29, 2018)

Question.....

The feeding schedule calls for x amount of Big Bloom and x amount of Tiger to be applied every other watering.

Is it better to.......

Mix both nutrients together in one watering and then use plain pH'd water the next time.

or

Use the Big Bloom in one watering and then use the Tiger in the next watering, alternating back and forth.

If there's no difference, I would prefer the alternating method. Nutes (especially the Tiger) always bring the pH down and if I use both nutes at the same time it brings the pH down so much that I have to add a ton of base to get it back up to 6-7.

If I just use one or the other, it brings it down just about right with no adjustment needed.

My water starts out about pH 8.


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## umbra (Jan 29, 2018)

Mix both together and use ph'd water the next time. The plants need both at the same time not 1 and then the other. You are thinking about this completely wrong.


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## Hackerman (Jan 29, 2018)

OK, Sorry bud. I know how frustrating it can be to deal with stupid people. I appreciate the patience.

Still, it makes sense my way.... I eat nothing but a head of lettuce one day and then I eat 4 potatoes the next day. Once a week, I eat 4 pounds of hamburger. Isn't that a balanced diet? LOL

Again, thanks for the patience.


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## Hackerman (Jan 29, 2018)

This explains why I have a zillion jars and bottles of pH up that I don't use and didn't remember why I had them.

When I first started on Fox Farms, I was using the entire routine (green and purple only). I can remember how tough it was to keep the pH up.

The Tiger is a big pH down and so I started using less and less. When it ran out, I quit buying it because it was so much easier to control the pH. 

I used the Big Bloom and the boosters only. The boosters are another big pH down so I used them instead of Acid to control pH.

I guess over a period of 3 or 4 years, the system got kind of off track. LMAO

I forgot all about this until I used the tiger and remembered why I had all the pH up.

I guess that's why the call it dope.

Thanks again


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## umbra (Jan 29, 2018)

Some nutes like GH 3 part require that certain nutes be used first before mixing the others. The micro is first then either the grow or bloom. The reason for this is you are building a chemical chain that starts with a primer. In some ways organics are the same. 1 product is not complete for what the plant needs, but they need to be together.
Perhaps a better analogy, rice is a protein, but not a complete protein it only has some of the amino acids, but not all of them. Beans are a complimentary protein, also not all the amino. Separately they are 2 sources of incomplete proteins, but together they combine to make a complete protein with all the amino acids necessary.
I hope this makes sense to you.


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## Hackerman (Jan 29, 2018)

Yeah, I understand. I was saying the same thing in my sarcasm about eating.

Once we get this nute thing straight, maybe you guys cab help me dial in the rest.

One thing I always do is trim bottom branches and transplant right before 12/12.

Not to get off topic but I am getting ready to do that soon and I'm wondering of that is wrong, too.

My standard MO is to trim up the bottoms and transplant from #1 pots to #3 pots and then flip 12/12.

One thing I notice is that root growth is minimal during flowering so the roots never really grow into the space.

I have often thought about transplanting a few weeks before flip but I don't have room to do that (albeit, I could make room if I have to).

Getting more like I'm going to owe you a 6-pack rather than buying you a beer. LOL

TA


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 29, 2018)

I always like to do any transplanting or serious trimming a week or two before I flip the lights.  Both of these are things that can cause shock and cause growth to slow while they recover.  I guess that I have always felt that flowering would be/could be delayed while they are recovering from the transplant and/or trim.  However, in real life, I don't really know if it matters.  This is just the way I have done it.

I'm seriously going to work on you to try an organic grow next run.


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## Hackerman (Jan 30, 2018)

I guess I don't understand this 'organic' thing.

I'm using dirt. That's organic.

The nutes I use are organic (except the Tiger).

What's different about 'organic' gardening.

I have read about dirt recipes with worm castings and all. So, instead of buying Fox Farms dirt, I make the same thing.

And, tea for food. vs using Fox Farms Big Bloom.

Other than cost vs hassle (which , I'll take cost any day) and the Tiger....

We can talk about it if it's not too frustrating for you. Or, pop me a link or 2 and I'll check it out.


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## umbra (Jan 30, 2018)

My 2 cents ... soil and FF nutes may not be 100% organic in the strictest of definitions, simply because some of their nutes are not 100% organic. It works though, and fairly well. Organics isn't just about using an amended soil, it's about the micro organisms and creating a living soil. Organic teas are not about the nutrients in the tea as much as the micro organisms they attract and feed. With the GH 3 part, it is a salt based fertilizer that has all the nutrients in a chelated form. Organic nutes are not found in nature in a chelated form and plants can not absorb them directly. They need mycorrhizal fungi to convert the raw organic nutes into a chelated form that the plant can absorb. Trichoderma fungi prevent parasites and bad micro organisms. Neither of these are found in organic teas, however. I've tried to point you in the right direction. I think you are more than capable of using a computer and doing a search to further your knowledge base. My list of links for you to start.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycorrhiza

https://www.bing.com/search?q=trich...KuX39w6NZQXE8S8Z9gJuWwPEMhQWqk317Fzcp&PC=DCTS

https://www.youtube.com/user/TrueLivingOrganics

https://permaculturenews.org/2016/01/19/what-are-effective-microorganisms/

microbeorganics.com

https://www.rodalesorganiclife.com/garden/what-compost-tea


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 30, 2018)

It is not frustrating for me at all, but I have to say that I have only been at this organic thing several years, so my knowledge is limited.  What's different about organic gardening?  Basically, you build the soil, the soil feeds the plants.  Organics is something that could take decades to master.  So, I do rely on others who have made it a vocation to help me.  Rosebud and duck are both quite knowledgeable and I reread the reference books I have.  My favorite is "True Living Organics" by The Rev.  


I'm not sure how much of this I am going to be able to explain.  But first "dirt" is not necessarily organic--the vast majority of it isn't.  And I do believe that the only nute you are using that is organic is the Big Bloom.  Further, soup feeding organic nutrients is not the same as building a good organic soil with great microbe herds in it.  There is more to it than just using nutrients that say "Organic" on the label.  You are trying to get away from heavily chelated products and build life in your soil mixture that will break down the elements and compounds so the plant can use them.  There is a big difference between using say AN's Iguana Juice (which is organic) and making your own soil mixture (which will have far more goodies than any prepared soil) and feeding with teas.  If you think you might be interested, I think that "True Living Organics" is a great read.  It is not too technical and has a lot of recipes that I like.  I have it on my Kindle, but if it was a real book, it would be dog-eared and falling apart...I have reread it so many times.  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MQF6SDZ/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20 

There is also the bonus of not having to continually check your pH.   After running hydro for so many years, it was wonderful to not have to be continually worried about pH.   I use a super soil I make up..and it is so much more than Fox Farm or any pre-prepared soil.  I have read a lot of supersoil recipes, but still like NV's best and that is what I use.  Every week or 10 days (or longer if life intervened), I would brew up a tea and feed them that.  I also did a foliar feeding with the tea as it helps keep bugs away.  Outside, they got watered everyday, I had a soaker system set up.  Indoors it is usually every other day.  The older I get the more I like hassle-free, too.


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## umbra (Jan 30, 2018)

My trim technique has changed over time. In Cali I have seen commercial growers seriously defoliate plants before flowering, with incredible results. I have starting using leds and they require a heavy trimming for light to penetrate below the canopy. I'll take some pix of my trees in flower.


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## Hackerman (Feb 2, 2018)

I have been doing some reading on the organic thing and I must admit, it's very interesting. I understand, now, why umbra says, feed the soil, not the plant.

I have been reading mostly the tech stuff about how it all works. I still have to read up on what's involved with preparing and maintaining. I'll be back to ask questions soon enough.

Meanwhile, the plants are not really showing any difference yet. I have been following the feeding / plain pH'd water schedule. We'll see.

This is week 6. In 2 weeks I am going to harvest the bottom branches. I think this is still too early so I don't want to snag the main cola yet but I do want some samples to test just in case I find the CBD content is, indeed higher at early harvest.

The Lemon OG is still only 5 weeks in and probably has another 5.

In spite of the fact that these Continuum are so sick, the buds are still frosting up nicely. And, the colas are huge. Going to be a decent yield if I can keep them going. 

View attachment aftertrim-3.jpg


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## Hackerman (Feb 3, 2018)

Not much change in the flower room. The CBD plants look about the same. Maybe a little worse.

The Lemon OG are starting to show the same signs on their large leaves.

Odd thing is, it's happening to the OG plants closest to the CBD plants and not much at all to the plants opposite. Almost like it's an infestation rather than a deficiency. 

OG are going into week 6 (one week behind the CBD.)

Not the greatest crop I've ever done.


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## Hackerman (Mar 3, 2018)

Well, here's something to ponder.

If you remember talking about it before, I had the clones from these mothers split up into 3 rooms. One was the new LED, one was the 8 bulb T5 and the other was my regular 1000w HPS.

Well, I harvested the Med Tree mothers and the Lemon OG that were in the main room and yesterday I swapped all the plants around.

Here is what's weird. The new MedTree clones that were in the main room with the 1000w HPS are starting to get that same necrosis that the mothers had.

The T5 plants don't have it and the LED plants don't have it. The only 3 plants out of about 30 that have it are the ones that are under the HPS.

Truth is, the nicest, healthiest plants were under the T5.

I have them all under the LED and HPS now so we'll see what happens.

All the plants are the same age from the same mothers and were in the same kind of pots with the same dirt, in the same temp and humidity, eating the same diet, with the, pretty much, exact same environment and living conditions.

I think I know why it's happening like this but I am open to hearing what others might think.


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## Hushpuppy (Mar 11, 2018)

Hack, I get that some on my stuff that is flowered under HPS. But it is usually on the highest leaves that sit directly under the light. Outside of that necrosis that forms on those highest leaves, the plants remain healthy and blooming. I have seen where if your pH swings too much, and/or to quickly, the plants will stress some and show similar signs, both in flower and in veg.


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## Hushpuppy (Mar 11, 2018)

The T5 is going to give you the lush green growth during veg as it is (if you have the veg lamps) 6000-6500K which the plants love for green growth. The HPS is only ~3000K which is good for flowering but not so much for vegging, so vegging plants under HPS will leave them more yellowish. Not sure with the LEDs. I suspect it depends on how the LED lamps are set up with colors, and how many watts of power are shining on them.


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