# pH issue



## surreptitious

hey guys, i'm having a problem maintaining the pH in my reservoir.  i'll check it and it will be 6.5-6.8.  i'll lower it using pH down chemicals to 5.5.  in 4-5 hours it will jump back up to 6.5-6.8 and sometimes higher.  what could cause the pH in my water to jump like that?  the leaves on my plants are showing nute burn and i think it's because i cannot maintain a pH that is suitable.

appreciate the help.



here are the details of my setup:

1.  plants are in the vegatative stage started from clones.  they are around 2 1/2 weeks old.

2.  using a drip hydroponic system.  i'm watering them 5 times during the day for 15 minutes each time.

3. i have a light proof (well almost, damn close) tent made with panda 
liner and PVC pipes that is 5' x 5' x 6 1/2' high. On the inside of the tent on the lower half i have a reflective material I got at the hydro store that has a bunch of little pyramids on it. seems to work well.

4.  I also have a carbon filter that connects to to the light and then a 
fan via duct that helps keep the tent cooler and provides circulation.  it is on when the lights are on.

5.  average temp is around 78 degrees farenheit...the humidity is around 50-60%

6. i have a 400 watt MH bulb with a digital ballast that sits about 16 inches over the tops of the plants that sit in a 3' x 3' drip tray. light is on for 18 hours and off for 6 hours. on at 4AM off at 10PM.

7.  I have a reservoir that sits under the tray that is i think 10 gallons and is a dark grey plastic...I only use distilled water. I also have an aerating stone in the reservoir with the water pump.

8.  i'm using GH Flora Nova nutes, right now only using the grow, not 
bloom.

9.  currently, my PPM is 150.  i'm using a sunleaves PPM meter and a Hanna PH checker

10.  grow media is hydroton and i let it sit in pH balanced water for 24 hours before planting in it.

12.  all the plants are white widow (at least thats what the seed bank 
was supposed to send me)


----------



## Pepper

Nute burn has nothing to do with your ph, it as to do with over fert. IF your ph is to low or to high it will cause your plant to "lock up" certain vital nutes and that may at times look like nute burn but it is a deficiency of sort, cant tell with no pic. If the water in your rez is to hot, and you do not have enouth oxigen  in your rez, your plants will die, and it will look like nute burn, well almost.
You need to stabalize your ph, a certain swing going up is good, from say 5.2 to 6 or so but very slow, fast changes to your ph will ruin your garden.

If your ec is to low it will also drive the ph to keep rising fast because your plants are feeding and there is not enouth food in the water, Im not a tech guy that is my simple explanation, also if your tap water is not to "hard" try using tap water versus distiled or ro water, that can also help your ph to be more stable.

I would empty your rez and clean up, and I mean clean EVERYTHING and put the clones back in a new CLEAN enviroment, also add some hydrogen peroxide to your rez, I use 1 cap full per galon in a small rez or 1/2 cup for every 20 galons every 4 days.

Make sure the water in your rez is at about 68 degrees F, never higher than 75 degrees F

You also need a lot of air moving in and out of your garden, everything must be at 100% or the garden will fail.


----------



## jmansweed

I had a few issues like this also. I'm a soil guy, but my ph treated watering reservoir would return to a higher ph after 24 hours. I started using a new type of ph-down and have had no issues. However, I switched to GH so this may not be the answer. In soil I have the advantage of adding stabilizers to the medium helping to easier maintain the numbers. Also, I've had a bad batch of nutes before. I tested the water after adding each nute individually and found my grow would drive the ph up like crazy - beyond normal. After replacing it, things were much easier to control. You may want to try going even lower with your ph and see if it stabilizes at a higher number.  Best of luck - hope I helped a little. peace


----------



## Barbapopa

Did you rinse your hydroton out before you used it?  It's always good to soak and rinse that stuff out before use.  
Also what Pepper said about your low EC is very important.


----------



## surreptitious

pepper: i have attached some pictures.  so, you think that my PPM might be to low at 150?  I dont have an ec meter only PPM.  what should my PPM be?

my tent has plenty of circulation.

i will clean everything up and put the clones back in there.  i've never heard of using hydrogen peroxide, but i'll try that too.

the water at the house is not hard as far as I know.  I can switch to that.

the temp of the water in my res is usually between 70-72 degrees Fahrenheit so that should be ok.

barbapopa: 10. grow media is hydroton and i let it sit in pH balanced water for 24 hours before planting in it.

i appreciate everybody's assistance.


----------



## Pepper

You do not have nute burn, you have the oposite you have nute deficiencies. It looks like to me that you have a potassium deficiency. I'm assuming your clones have a nice root system already, bring your ppm up to 350/400 for 1 wk, in about 3 to 5 days your plants should start to look better, after 7 days change the rez clean EVERYTHING again  and bump the ppm up to 550/600, they should look ever better then.

Your clones also look pale green to me wich tells me your nitrogen levels are also to low, you want your plants to be a nice deep green, but not a dark green almost black if you can understand what I mean  thats to much nitrogen. 
I know its a paing getting these nutes right. Do not allow light to hit your water in the rez, do not keep your rez uncovered, use a black rez, or make it 100% light proff.

Potassium is involved in maintaining the water status of the plant and the tugor pressure of it's cells and the opening and closing of the stomata. Potassium is required in the accumulation and translocation of carbohydrates. Lack of potassium will reduce yield and quality.

Potassium deficiency (K).

Older leaves are initially chlorotic but soon develop dark necrotic lesions (dead tissue). First apparent on the tips and margins of the leaves. Stem and branches may become weak and easily broken, the plant may also stretch. The plant will become susceptible to disease and toxicity. In addition to appearing to look like iron deficiency, the tips of the leaves curl and the edges burn and die.

Potassium - Too much sodium (Na) displaces K, causing a K deficiency. Sources of high salinity are: baking soda (sodium bicarbonate "pH-up"), too much manure, and the use of water-softening filters (which should not be used). If the problem is Na, flush the soil. K can get locked up from too much Ca or ammonium nitrogen, and possibly cold weather.


----------



## surreptitious

you're the man.  i will do that and report back in a week.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> you're the man. i will do that and report back in a week.


 

Sounds good


----------



## cmd420

I have the same prob at first with Hydroton...I soak it in pH'd water, but it still raises pH for the first week or so but it adjusts...


----------



## Pepper

cmd420 said:
			
		

> I have the same prob at first with Hydroton...I soak it in pH'd water, but it still raises pH for the first week or so but it adjusts...


 

Hydroton does nothing to ph levels, unless it has been used in another garden, and was not cleaned properly, also no need to pre soak hydroton in ph'd water, you can do it but it's a waist of time.

When hydroton is new out of the bag it must be rinsed out really well, until the water washing the hydroton is clean, no sign of red dust, that is all you need to do, very simple.

If you are going to use hydroton that was used in a previous garden, you need to wash it out by first rinsing it just like you would with new hydroton out of the bag, BUT you also need to soak it in a clean container with clearex added to the water, this will remove any salt build up in your hydroton, then rinse again under clean water.


----------



## cmd420

Hmmmm..

I have been growing with Hydroton and I find that my pH tends to rise for the first few weeks, then levels off, then I have to start adjusting it up.....

I've never used "used" hydroton...

I rinse my hydroton 6 cups at a time...until water from those six cups runs clear....

...so, pray tell, what is going on (that explains all of these factors) if it's not Hydroton...(not challenging you Pepper, just curious for a dofferent answer)


----------



## Pepper

cmd420 said:
			
		

> Hmmmm..
> 
> I have been growing with Hydroton and I find that my pH tends to rise for the first few weeks, then levels off, then I have to start adjusting it up.....
> 
> I've never used "used" hydroton...
> 
> I rinse my hydroton 6 cups at a time...until water from those six cups runs clear....
> 
> ...so, pray tell, what is going on (that explains all of these factors) if it's not Hydroton...(not challenging you Pepper, just curious for a dofferent answer)


 

If you need to adjust your ph on a clean new rez it could be a couple of things, my first guess is that your ec level is to low, if the ph is good at first and then it starts to rise that means the ec level is droping due to the plants feeding and that is good, if you need to raise your ph then that is not good that means your plants are not feeding, its time to clean and change the rez or raise your ec.
Those would be the 2 things I would look at first, also excessive salt build up in your root system or rez will throw your ph all over the place, in that case its time for a good cleaning, flush your system using clearex, and start fresh, new water and new nutes.


----------



## cmd420

10 -4...I'll look into EC as it relates to pH..thx


----------



## Pepper

cmd420 said:
			
		

> 10 -4...I'll look into EC as it relates to pH..thx


 

I'll give you another for you to scrach your head on  

During vegge plants will release toxins that raise ph, during flower plants release toxins that lower ph. 

You confused yet   No need to be   either way the system needs to be taken care of, what I posted initialy are the first things you should look out for, I'm just letting you know of this to.


----------



## surreptitious

so, it's normal to have to adjust the pH daily?


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> so, it's normal to have to adjust the pH daily?


 

Yes, and no  

To much ph fluctuation is not good period, specially it if its fast, a slow rise in ph is good.

Growing hydroponicly is a pain in the arse until you learn your equipment/garden, once you learn what your equipment and garden can do or cant do, then it become easy, but even very experianced hydro farmers have dificult times with their grows, it is not always "peaches and cream"  

You can feed your plants with the correct amount of nutes, water and air temps are right, everything is dialed in nice, *but* if your ph is out of wack your garden will fail.


----------



## surreptitious

ok, i'm still experiencing fast raise in pH.  any other suggestions?


----------



## cmd420

I have four sativas in 12/12 that have the pH go up nearly every day

....I have four indicas in 12/12 that go down in pH every day....

I can dig on what Pepper is saying about the differences in a plant's respiration with respect to the stage of life it's in, BUT...

what's the deal with the daily pH fluctuations? I am in the same boat as Surrepititous...


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> ok, i'm still experiencing fast raise in pH. any other suggestions?


 
That tells me nothing. What changes did you do to your garden? What is the initial ph, are you using tap water, did you CLEAN EVERYTHING? And I dont mean just rinse everything off, I'm talking about alcohol, clearex, hydrogen peroxide, a good cleaning.
Pics?


----------



## cmd420

that's the thing..I don't just clean the stuff, I _replace_ all tubing, fittings etc..

and as for my buckets, I use FloraClean and FloraShield soakings and scrubbings...

I don't use a rez, I just top off as needed...

my tap water is at like 7.0 (ish) and it's ppms are around 50 or so....

I hope I'm not jacking this thread, but I think others have these issues as well....

c'mon Pepper..stay with me...what ya got next?


----------



## Pepper

cmd420 said:
			
		

> I have four sativas in 12/12 that have the pH go up nearly every day
> 
> ....I have four indicas in 12/12 that go down in pH every day....
> 
> I can dig on what Pepper is saying about the differences in a plant's respiration with respect to the stage of life it's in, BUT...
> 
> what's the deal with the daily pH fluctuations? I am in the same boat as Surrepititous...


 

Welcome to the hydroponic World   If hydroponic systems were easy systems to grow in nobody would use soil.

As I mentioned before there are many reasons why you have ph fluctuations, you have to take the time to learn your system, your strain, etc, and adjust by trial and error, that is the best way to learn how to grow in a hydroponic system.


----------



## Pepper

cmd420 said:
			
		

> that's the thing..I don't just clean the stuff, I _replace_ all tubing, fittings etc..
> 
> and as for my buckets, I use FloraClean and FloraShield soakings and scrubbings...
> 
> I don't use a rez, I just top off as needed...
> 
> my tap water is at like 7.0 (ish) and it's ppms are around 50 or so....
> 
> I hope I'm not jacking this thread, but I think others have these issues as well....
> 
> c'mon Pepper..stay with me...what ya got next?


 



  WOW talk about a good cleaning.
You dont have to go to that extreme, no need to replace tubing etc  
Your water has ph buffers in it, what that is doing is it is fighting what you are trying to do which is lower the ph.
Never top off using plain water always add nutes to the water, so you maintain the proper ec/ppms. 

Try this, get a large rez that will hold the same amount of water that you use in your buckets 5 galons, 50 galons, etc fill it with water, add your nutes, add air stones, and run that system for at least 48hrs, then use that water and nutes in your buckets.

Certain nutes are also better than others at maintaining the ph more stable I only use fox farm, my friend uses canna, we dont have these problems.

At times I may have to make minor adjustments but never nothing major. Like I said before many times when the ec is to low it becomes hard to maintain proper ph due to the buffers in the water, and the plants feeding and not having enouth food.


----------



## cmd420

That's it Pepper..I said it in my ec thread, but I realized that you are right!..the lower my ppms, the higher my pH fluctuates...

I think that M.E. said that his babies that _aren't_ recieving high ppm's are fluctuating _up _in pH.....

makes sense...I'm going to test it out when I raise my ppms..wow..that's absolutely ground breaking for me..THX AGAIN PEPPER

Does this fit for you M.E.?


----------



## surreptitious

i cleaned everything thoroughly (with alcohol).  i increased the nutes to 500 PPM, i'm using tap water (i let it sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine evaporate). i will take some pics in the morning.


----------



## surreptitious

cmd420 said:
			
		

> I hope I'm not jacking this thread, but I think others have these issues as well....


not at all, i'm here to learn as much as possible.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> i cleaned everything thoroughly (with alcohol). i increased the nutes to 500 PPM, i'm using tap water (i let it sit for 24 hours to let the chlorine evaporate). i will take some pics in the morning.


 

Are you in hydroton? Or are you in rockwool? If you are in hydroton or rockwool and if you did not flush your system with clearex you may have high salt in your medium or root system, that is still throwing your ph around, this is just a possibility. When you get a chance pick up 1 galon of clearex its your best friend in hydroponics, every 2 wks flush your system with clearex for about 10 hr's and clean EVERYTHING.

You may need to raise your ec even more to around 1 or 1.2 thats about 700 to 800 ppm but dont do it yet, wait a few days because you just brought your ppm from 150 to 500 so take it easy  in the mean time just keep the ph at about 6 not lower than 6that wil ensure that your plants dont suffer from any more deficiencies plus the ph swing will not be as drastic.


----------



## Pepper

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Im at about 800 ppm right now, is this low?


 

That tells me nothing.

I dont know at what stage your garden is in, and I dont know what strain you have, etc.


----------



## surreptitious

Pepper said:
			
		

> Are you in hydroton? Or are you in rockwool? If you are in hydroton or rockwool and if you did not flush your system with clearex you may have high salt in your medium or root system, that is still throwing your ph around, this is just a possibility. When you get a chance pick up 1 galon of clearex its your best friend in hydroponics, every 2 wks flush your system with clearex for about 10 hr's and clean EVERYTHING.
> 
> You may need to raise your ec even more to around 1 or 1.2 thats about 700 to 800 ppm but dont do it yet, wait a few days because you just brought your ppm from 150 to 500 so take it easy  in the mean time just keep the ph at about 6 not lower than 6that wil ensure that your plants dont suffer from any more deficiencies plus the ph swing will not be as drastic.



hyrdoton.  i do not have any clearex.  i will pick some up as soon as i can get back to the hydro store.

I  have another question.  I have the exact same set up for my mother plants but i'm using t-5 fluorescent lights instead of a metal halide light and i dont have these problems with my pH there. Those plants are over 3 feet tall now.  Would the light make a difference?

Thanks for all your help.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> hyrdoton. i do not have any clearex. i will pick some up as soon as i can get back to the hydro store.
> 
> I have another question. I have the exact same set up for my mother plants but i'm using t-5 fluorescent lights instead of a metal halide light and i dont have these problems with my pH there. Those plants are over 3 feet tall now. Would the light make a difference?
> 
> Thanks for all your help.


 

Yes it can make a differance because of a few things like for example, the more light your plants receive the faster they grow so that means the more they eat than means the ec level will drop faster, also your plants and your medium will receive more concentrated heat from a hid than they will from a t-5. Hydroponics can be very finicky at times it takes time to learn it does not happen over night. Your water could also be cooler under the t-5 than the hid.


----------



## surreptitious

i will check the water temperature and report back.


----------



## surreptitious

ok, so the temp in the res is 76-77 degrees.  i guess that's my problem.  i'm going to move the res out of my light tent.  hopefully that will fix my issues.  i'll make the changes and let you know.


----------



## surreptitious

ok, so immediately the temp went down to 74 degrees after i moved it out the tent.

i guess i should invest more in a reservoir than a cheap rubbermaid container from walmart.


----------



## surreptitious

pepper.  my res temp is now hovering between 69 and 72 degrees, but i'm still having problems.  my pH will still get to about 7 after a day.

i've attached some more pictures.

what else can i do?

thanks


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> pepper. my res temp is now hovering between 69 and 72 degrees, but i'm still having problems. my pH will still get to about 7 after a day.
> 
> i've attached some more pictures.
> 
> what else can i do?
> 
> thanks


 


That is good that you were able to bring your rez temp down try to keep it that way, because its very important.

Your ec/ppm is still to low thats why your ph is rising so fast, your plants are still deprived of food. It looks like to me that you still have a potassium deficiency, you need to raise your potassium.
What is your current ppm? If your current ppm is at 500 bump it to 800/1000.


Once you find the correct ec/ppm your PH will not drift, and if it does it will be very little + you will not have any deficiencies in your garden, but keep in mind the bigger the plant gets the more nutes you will need to give it.

It is hard starting out in a hydro, specialy trying to learn the correct ec/ppm to feed the plants, and maintain the correct PH.
I do not recomend trying every strain on the market for the reason stated above every strain feeds different, etc plus white widow is not beginer frendly in the first place, you probably should have picked up an indica strain much easier to grow, not has picky.

So I would suggest to you that you stay growing the white widow, you will learn its likes and dont likes in this current grow, keep a log of everything you do to your garden + dates, time, etc, write down everything, this will be your personal reference log book.

Your next white widow grow will be much better, and the longer you grow white widow the better it will be because you will know your equipment/garden/strain.

I love white widow really good stuff, very good all around smoke


----------



## surreptitious

i appreciate your help.  i will kick up the nutes to 800 and let you know how that goes.


----------



## DonJones

surreptitious,

Try contacting the nute manufacturer for advice about ph and ppm ranges and causes for fluctation like that.  They spend a lot of money solving these type of problems, and as much as I hate to imply that our members are less qualified to give you advice, all of us are pretty much only able to tell you what has worked or failed for us.  Unfortunately, one little difference between your grow and ours can change every thing by a lot and thus one small over looked detail may cause you to get disastrous advice for your grow that is dead on for others grows.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> i appreciate your help. i will kick up the nutes to 800 and let you know how that goes.


 
Once you have the correct ec your ph will be stable so if you raise it to 800 and your ph still drifts fast, bump it to 1000/1200 keep bringing your ec/ppm up until you no longer have ph drifts.

Also once you raise the ec/ppm it may take 3 to 5 days for you to notice a difference in your plants, so dont start freaking out if the plants look the same in a day or two it takes time.

"Rome was not built in 1 day"


----------



## surreptitious

pepper: roger roger, nutes have been bumped up to 800 and i'll report back in 5 days.

DonJones: understood.  i'll keep that in mind.  thanks


----------



## surreptitious

got another question pepper.  it's been a day or two since i bumped up the nutes to 800.  the pH is still rising, but it's much slower.  after 2 days it has raised from 5.9 to 6.4 or so.

should i increase the PPM now?  or should I wait a few days?

thanks


----------



## DonJones

surreptitious,

Are you adjusting the ph of your base water while it is dechlorinating? If you are starting off with a ph outside of the normal 5.5 to6.6 range then it is really going to complicate your drift problems.

Once again, contact the manufacturer of your nutes and see what they say about PHing the water before you add the nutes and checking it after the nutes are mixed in.  I have always heard from the manufacturers that I deal with that their products are either ph neutral or some where in the 5.5 to 6.5 range.

Also are you sure that your PH tester is functioning correctly?  If you can take it to a hydro shop and compare it to one of their properly calibrated meters.

What you are hearing about experience is very true as is the advice to keep a detailed jorunal so that you can refer back to it to see what happened when you changed something.  And try for consistency unless your plants are suffering!  For instance, I make my own PH Down from concentrated sulpheric acid.  I played with it a little and discovered that if I dilute the acid 3 parts h2o to1 part acid and use 1.3 ml of the PH down solution in one gallon of my tap water while I'm letting the chlorine dissipate, my ph comes out exactly 6.0 which is where I start before adding the nutes.  Now I only check like maybe 10 to 20% of my water after treating it.  

I'm using the 6.0 ph because that is right in the middle of what I'm seeing recommended here on the forum and it also seems to allow for the widest specific nute availability.  So far it has worked out very well for me.  Also, I'm growing in dirt & additives so the ph isn't qutie as critical as in hydro.  I'm sure that I will have to do things a little differently when I start using the water farm system than I do with the dirt.  In fact, I'm running half of this crop in black gold and I'd bet that I have to change things from the dirt a little too.  I have already seen that the black gold won't take nearly the watering that my dirt has required.


----------



## surreptitious

i do not adjust the pH of my base water while dechlorinating.  i let it dechlorinate for 24 hours, then i add nutes, then i adjust pH.

i'm pretty sure my pH tester is functioning correctly.  i use a buffer solution to calibrate it about once a week or so.

so, what your saying is you pH balance the water while it dechlorinates and then add nutes and pH balance again?

i'm using GH's pH up and pH down to adjust pH.


----------



## DonJones

surreptitious,

I'm using the fish tank dye tester and can only test clear solutions,however I have had the fresh solutions PHed using a meter and they aren't changing much from the 6.0 that I start out with for treated water.  I only mix enough solution for one feeding at a time so they are always fresh.  I run the tap water, which is 7.0 all the time here on city water, into 1 gallon milk jugs using the spray nozzle on the kitchen sink to try to get more aeration to it, add the diluted acid, cap it, shake the crap out of it to further aerate the water as well as mixing the acid more evenly and then take the lids off and let them set.  Then I random test them to make sure nothing has changed since the last watering.

Then I mix the solution that includes Superthrive, Alaska Fish Fertilizer, Alaska Morebloom in varying amounts all the time and then after about 2 weeks in flower I also add CNS 17 Ripe until about week 5 or 6, then I switch to only the CNS 17 until I switch them to just water.  I also use Emerald Triangle's additives as directed.  This is for dirt type soil.

I'm in the process of transitioning to Future Harvest Development's nute and additives line because our present system is not going to work in hydro of any kind.  Not only that, I'm tired of the smell of the fish fertilizer!


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> got another question pepper. it's been a day or two since i bumped up the nutes to 800. the pH is still rising, but it's much slower. after 2 days it has raised from 5.9 to 6.4 or so.
> 
> should i increase the PPM now? or should I wait a few days?
> 
> thanks


 

If your ph has not become stable yet you can bump your ppms to 1000, if its still rising bump up to 1200 and continue to do so until your initial ph is at 5.2 + or - and finish at 5.8/6.0 and that drift should take about 2wks.


----------



## surreptitious

i bumped it up to 1100 and i'm getting a drift of from 5.2 to 6.0 in 4 days.  i'll be bumping it up again.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> i bumped it up to 1100 and i'm getting a drift of from 5.2 to 6.0 in 4 days. i'll be bumping it up again.


 

I see that you are a fart smeller sorry I mean smart fella  

You are cacthing on that is good   my guess and dont go by this but I'm thinking 1600 ppm + or - for your ph to become stable. Dont forget updates with pics


----------



## surreptitious

pepper: attached are some pictures.  still need work, but they are getting better and this experience will make my next crop a better one.

i believe that after all this work...this will be the best stoned experience ever lol.  who said potheads were lazy?

what i find odd is that i've done a lot of reading about this topic.  especially hydroponics and i have not seen anybody say that if your pH drifts too fast up that you might not be feeding them enough.

i think part of the problem with me is that i have read a lot where people say over feeding your plants is the source of a lot of people's issues.  i didnt want to overdue it.  and in that, i under did it.

anyways.  thanks again for your help. i'll keep you posted with some more pics soon.


----------



## surreptitious

oh, also, if you compare these pictures to the old ones...i've rotated them

i took the ones on the left and put them in the middle and the ones on the right i put on the left.


----------



## dr pyro

hydroton does raise your ph at first dont know why you say it dont. it did for me and hundreds of others on this board.cmd you are correct on the ph with hydroton.the reason you ph swings is the nute contant in water to low of nutes you ph will rise quickly to unacceptable levels. to much nutes and you get low ph. finding the balance point is what you need to do for your type of grow.acceptable ph for hydro is like 5.4-5.9. anyhting outside these level you will have a lockout of anynumber of things. there is a chart on here that shows what is picked up at certain levels. thast why alittle flucuations between 5.4-5.9 is good. i to have battled ph issues in hydro for 2-3 months now my ph stays between 5.4 5.9 i add nothing for ph up or down.


----------



## dr pyro

what line of nutes you using i have a proven formula that works great but its for gh here it is any way  i do not take credit for this i found it awhile back. there was more to it but i cut the part you reall need hope this helps.


So OK - feeding schedule week by week. This is the GH weekly feeding program, slightly tweaked. I will only call out the volume of each part per gallon of water in the following manner: grow, micro, bloom, ppm range. Example - 5-2.5-2.5-400/800 would mean 5 ml grow, 2.5 ml micro, 2.5 ml bloom and a ppm of 400-880. Remember it's per gallon. You Euro's can easily convert to liters. 4 liters is just a little bit over 1 gallon. It should also be noted that I use the hardwater micro due to my tapwater. I suggest using the hardwater micro in place of the regular micro if your tap water is over 200 ppm total or you have over 70 ppm Ca. RO water users should use the regular micro.

Veg 
week 1 5-2.5-2.5-400/600
week 2 10-5-3- 600/800
week 3 12-6-3 800/1000 (continue week 3 formula if additional veg time is required.)

Bloom
week 1 6-6-10- 800/1200
week 2 3-7-12 - 1000/1400
week 3 3-8-14 - 1000/1400
week 4 3-8-16 - 1000/1400
week 5 (discussed in detail below*)
week 6 0-7-20 - 1000/1400
week 7 0-6-20 (see bleow**)

* During week 5 if not using a booster like Superbud, Bushmaster Kabloom etc. run 2.5-7-18. I use MOAB (Mother of All Blooms) or BushMaster at 50% of recommended strength, and use 1.25-3.5-9 for the fert base. 

**If running an 8 week strain you should only run the ferts during week 7 for a maximum of 3-4 days. This gives you 10 days for flushing. 

The ppms work out almost exactly. I tend to lean toward the lower side of the range, unless I have a really heavy feeder that I know can handle it. 

At every ressy change out I add in 5 drops per gallon of 35% food grade H2O2. During flush use ph adjusted water at 5.5-6.0
I will add epsom salt at week 1 of bloom if the plants are heavy feeders AND I see signs of an Mg def. Otherwise I won't use it. The only time I have ever had Mg def is during transition. The GH 3 part is a little low on Mg, but the PBP and Canna nutes are way lower. 

Now- how to control your PH...
There are a couple factors that cause your PH to drift. The most common is running the nute solution too strong or too weak. If it's too strong, your PH drops. If it's too weak the PH rises. You have to find the balance point. If you find that the formula above is say, a little strong, and say you have a 20 gallon ressy, mix the nutes for 18 gallons. If it's a little weak, mix it for 22 gallons. You follow?
The other common mistake is mixing your nutrient solution and trying to adjust the PH right away. You have to allow time for the ph buffers in the nutrient solution to do their job. Mix the nutes up, and bubble or circulate for 12 hours before even looking at your PH. You will find the PH to be almost right on target.
I use little or no ph adjusters. (Except during flush). I use tap water, with a starting PPM of 300-400 and a starting PH of 7.4-9.0 (Thats crazy you say! The water is too hard, you will never get stable PH and you will have too much Ca, causing a lockout of Mg!) Bollocks I say.
Every week, on Friday I drain the ressy and fill with plain water. I let that run overnight giving the plants a little flush. This also allows the chlorine and ammonia to evap. On Saturday morning, I mix the nutes into the ressy. I DO NOT adjust ph at this time. Let that run as is overnight. On Sunday morning, I check ph and adjust if needed. Usually don't have to. 
Doing things this way has saved me from constant PH drifts, and using about 150 ml of ph down every ressy change, and a little here and there throughout the week to keep it in the desired range. Now, the most I ever have to use is about 30 ml.if any at all. (I have a 35 gallon ressy btw) My Ph stays at a constant 5


----------



## dr pyro

what is your base ppm for your tap water?are you filtering this water?


----------



## dr pyro

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1908

check these charts
you wanna get your nutes to the point where i just starts to burn them then back off a tad and keep it there. i  have ww to but im in flower now running 1600 ppm @ .7 coversion factor when in veg i ran 1400 with no problems. make not to all these factors. i keep a notebook with weekly details temp,ppm nutes added etc. then when you grow again you have a god baseline down then do alittle more tweeking it takes time.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> surreptitious- Im not trying to be mean here in anyway, Im actually trying to help because I was having PH issues also...
> 
> I notice in the first post in this thread with pics was posted on 10-11.. Your plants have not grown much since then... maybe 2-3 nodes... I think your having other issues with your set up.
> 
> Look at my grow journal the link is in my signature.. My plants grew from the size of yours to bushes in 3 weeks.. You should have a much faster growth rate than that..


 
i read your journal.  you are right.  mine have not taken off like yours.  in fact, your grow pisses me off because you mention how easy hydro is compared to soil and i feel like i've been working my butt off with poor results.  no offense to you, your plants look awesome.  

you mentioned on the first post of your journal that you use "Nutes for my grow are Flora Nova, Flora Blend, Flouralicios plus, Cal-Mag, and Kool Bloom.."  but you dont mention what PPM of what nutes you used from the beginning.

it seems there is much conflicting information on what works.  what works for you might not work for me.

what's more baffling for me is that i have an almost identical setup for my mothers and they are over 4ft tall.  the only difference is my lights.  my mothers are getting T-5 flouros and these new clones are getting MH light.


i am, however, still open to suggestions.


----------



## surreptitious

dr pyro said:
			
		

> what is your base ppm for your tap water?are you filtering this water?


 
it's 300-400 PPM, not filtering.  i let it sit for at least 24 hours before adding nutes and putting itthe res.


----------



## dr pyro

your tap is putting out 300-400 ppm? wow dude get a filter.you need a low baseline. i have no def and im 6 week into flower. us ethe formula i provided i'm telling you it works without a doubt get your filter get those ppm up there you should be pushin 1000-1400 ppm in veg you will notice a diffrence in new growth fast.


----------



## dr pyro

letting it sit just evaporates chloramine it does nothing for the other crap in your water. you need to get your water before mix to below 100 the closer to 0 the better and ro/di or just ro should get you to 0 with no problems.


----------



## dr pyro

like i said i have no def at all. i add no ph up or down at all.i did before i tried this formula. dont raise your ppm anymore than 200 ppm at a shot wait 3 to 4 days then another 200 watch your growth for nute burn if no signs add more nutes.like the formula says if you mix for 5 gal  and your solution is to weak your ph will jump past your desired levels. then just use 6 gallon ratios but your still using 5 gal water. watch again ph goes up again mix ratios for 7 gal but still keep 5 gal water. the same goes for if its to strong your ph will be at 5.0 if it stays that low for say 3to 5 hrs then you need to use 4 gal ratios for the 5 gal water you follow. when you figure this out i can gaurantee your ph will not drift if you keep the res topped with right ratio solution.hydro is so much easier than dirt you just gotta get dialed in.


----------



## dr pyro

what type of ppm meter you have and ph meter


----------



## surreptitious

PPM meter is Sunleaves and pH meter is Hanna


----------



## surreptitious

dr pyro said:
			
		

> I use little or no ph adjusters. (Except during flush). I use tap water, with a starting PPM of 300-400 and a starting PH of 7.4-9.0 (Thats crazy you say! The water is too hard, you will never get stable PH and you will have too much Ca, causing a lockout of Mg!)


 


			
				dr pyro said:
			
		

> your tap is putting out 300-400 ppm? wow dude get a filter.you need a low baseline. i have no def and im 6 week into flower. us ethe formula i provided i'm telling you it works without a doubt get your filter get those ppm up there you should be pushin 1000-1400 ppm in veg you will notice a diffrence in new growth fast.


 
i dont follow.


----------



## cmd420

Hey Surrep...

I've been waiting to post this until I was sure:

Pepper is dead on right..

I had a ridiculous drift in my pH every day..I mean I would adjust it at night to 5.8 and by the next night it would be 6.8 or so....

I started bumping the nutes up gradually (by 200 ppms every 5 days or so)and sure enough, my pH has stabilized...

I _would _be quick to attribute this to the passage of time or maybe a different part of the plant's life cycle or whatever, 


but this problem has persisted throughout....

until I started manipulating the ppms with respect to the pH...

give it a few days, but you're on the right track fo sho!!


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> pepper: attached are some pictures. still need work, but they are getting better and this experience will make my next crop a better one.
> 
> i believe that after all this work...this will be the best stoned experience ever lol. who said potheads were lazy?
> 
> what i find odd is that i've done a lot of reading about this topic. especially hydroponics and i have not seen anybody say that if your pH drifts too fast up that you might not be feeding them enough.
> 
> i think part of the problem with me is that i have read a lot where people say over feeding your plants is the source of a lot of people's issues. i didnt want to overdue it. and in that, i under did it.
> 
> anyways. thanks again for your help. i'll keep you posted with some more pics soon.


 

Has I suspected you still have deficiencies, part of the reason being is that your nutes are still to low, the other reasons are your plants locked up due to the high and low ph swings + water temp being off. 

Your plants are still a pale green, which is also a sign of low nutes. 
I would also suggest you pick up some cal mag and add that to your current nutes at 5ml per galon = 1 tsp per galon, and in flower 10ml per galon = 2 tsp per galon.

Your current garden will recover there is no question there but you should accept the fact that this is only a trial run, a hands on experience training for your next garden, the longer you play farmer  the better your garden will be.


----------



## surreptitious

my head hurts


----------



## dr pyro

serp that post on the nutes i gave you was copied from someone else. i truly use no ph up or down at all.


----------



## dr pyro

so whats up any update you getting t he hang of it


----------



## surreptitious

i think i am getting the hang of it, but still having some problems.  currently my PPM is at 1500 and my pH is 5.7.  i still think i'm having problems with pH. it started at 5.6 on monday and then 6.1 on tuesday and then 5.9 on wed, and now it's 5.7.

i've attached some pictures.  i'm still getting burnt looking tips on the leaves.  would this be caused by the fluctuation in the ph?

what i've done is clipped all the dead looking leaves and then topped the plants and now a week later this is what the leaves are looking like.

any advice would be helpful.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> i think i am getting the hang of it, but still having some problems. currently my PPM is at 1500 and my pH is 5.7. i still think i'm having problems with pH. it started at 5.6 on monday and then 6.1 on tuesday and then 5.9 on wed, and now it's 5.7.
> 
> i've attached some pictures. i'm still getting burnt looking tips on the leaves. would this be caused by the fluctuation in the ph?
> 
> what i've done is clipped all the dead looking leaves and then topped the plants and now a week later this is what the leaves are looking like.
> 
> any advice would be helpful.


 
I think I mentioned somewhere on this thread that you would probably end up around 1600 ppm  but dont forget the bigger the plant the more food you need to give it. Since you are just starting out it may make you feel more confortable to use a ppm/ec meter but the truth is you dont even need one, you will learn how to read the plants to the point were you will know exactly what it needs, more nitro, mag, etc. 
I'll tell you a little secret  I dont even own an ec or ppm meter   because I dont need one, and you will get to that point to.
Its good to know you are getting the hang of things and I told you it is not easy  you cant beat on the job training, nothing like the hands on experiance you can read until you are blue in the face   but it is never the same has real life experiance, keep growing that ww and in about 1 year your garden will look so good that you will impress yourself.
Did you buy some cal mag plus like I sugested? If you did not get it yet pick some up,  you will see your garden improve in a couple of days, I would start the cal mag plus at 5ml per galon that = 1 tsp per galon if your garden looks the same after 2 or 3 days add another 5ml per galon making it a total of 10ml per galon.
Has far has your ph goes, dont worry its were it should be.


----------



## meds4me

*Pepper:* 
I'm impressed brother...I too have cahnged over to DWC and having similiar problems. Cant afford the $200 PLUS METER SO I'M DEF FOLLOWING ALONG.
Ill post some more pics tommorrow and would appreciate any comments on mine Thanks 
Didnt mean to jack this thread ~


----------



## surreptitious

the hydro store is over 2 hours away and i have not had a chance to make it down there to pick up the cal mag plus.

as soon as i can get down there i'll pick some up.


----------



## DonJones

surreptitious,

I think some people over do the checking PH and/or PPMs and wind up chasing it up and down.  Wide fluctuations in any thing, PH, nutes, light cycles or intensitiy, temperature of the solution and/or the air, are hard on any plant. 

Also, assuming that you didn't try to adjust the PH on day 2 when it was up to 6.1 and that it came down on its own, I would ignore those small swings.  
Also, several experienced growers have found that even in plain tap water, the PH will rise the second day and then drop back to where they set it on the first day, then stay stable.  That is what your figures are doing.

Like has been said many, many times before in the forums, it isn't rocket science to grow mj -- if every thing was as critical as some people like to say it is, then we wouldn't have any mj because it would have become extinct thousands of years ago do to wide fluctuations in every aspect of the wild environment.

Also, what works for me going clones off of the same plant as yours came form on the same day, so the genetics are identical,  will not necessarily give the same results for you regardless of how closely we try to duplicate conditions, media, nutes, lights, temp, humidity and so on.

If you get a good nutrient absorbsion chart shows at what PH various nutrient ions are absorbed, you will find that you can never have a perfect PH because some of them shut down before you get high enough to start another one absorbing.  The best you can do is to try to arrive at a PH that lets the majority of them absorb and then add additional of the particular nutrient that asborbes poorly at that PH.

Relax and enjoy the growing as well as the smoking after you harvest.  Good Smoking.


----------



## surreptitious

thanks don jones.  

yes, after the pH was 6.1 i did not adjust.  i let it ride.  

it just bugs me that the leaves are continuing to show burning tips.  i'm still doing something wrong and don't know what it is.

will the cal mag help this?


----------



## pcduck

Once the tips are burnt they will always be burnt. A plant can not grow new tips just new growth

Cal/ mag helps the most during flowering when the plant is in need of more mag.


----------



## surreptitious

pcduck: ok, but a week ago i trimmed all the leaves that were burnt and now the leaves that werent burnt a week ago are slowly starting to burn.  how do i fix it so that future leaves are not like this?

is there a certain nutrient that i'm missing?  i'm using GH's flora nova and it should have all the nutes i need, right?  should I increase my ppm with the nutes?

thanks!


----------



## dr pyro

no if yourr getting nute burn back the nutes off. get the ppm back to 1300 let it go for a bit. if it is still burning NEW GROWTH then back off againto 1200 you need to find what your plants can take. do this slowly


----------



## surreptitious

dr. pyro: so, the pictures shown is actually nute burn?


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> dr. pyro: so, the pictures shown is actually nute burn?


 

You do not have nute burn, and you never did so dont worry about that, what you do have is deficiencies, I will help you solve those problems step by step. 
Damaged leaves very rarelly become healthy again, but the plant will naturaly try to repair itself, and you need to pay very close attention to this because it is very important, it means you are on the right track.

This is were experiance comes into play   and you to will get there it takes time a very long time to be a good grower, so be patient, "Rome was not built in one day"  

Your plants are mainly lacking nitro, mag, and calcium the cal mag plus will not only help correct those problems it will also help your plant feed better,  your plants are still not green enouth, you want your plants to be dark green, just look out of your window at mother Nature, and that is the green you want to see in your garden. 

I would up the nutes 5ml a galon from were you are now, so if you are using 10ml per galon for example bump it up to 15ml per galon, and forget about ppm numbers, if I were you I would put that meter away, your eyes are the most acurate meter you could ever own.


----------



## Pepper

pcduck said:
			
		

> Once the tips are burnt they will always be burnt. A plant can not grow new tips just new growth
> 
> Cal/ mag helps the most during flowering when the plant is in need of more mag.


 

Cal mag plus should be used from day one, and not only in flower.
Many, many growers mistaken deficiencies for nute burn, I will say that probably 8 out of 10 times a garden will have deficiencies and not nute burn.


----------



## surreptitious

Pepper said:
			
		

> You do not have nute burn, and you never did so dont worry about that, what you do have is deficiencies, I will help you solve those problems step by step.
> Damaged leaves very rarelly become healthy again, but the plant will naturaly try to repair itself, and you need to pay very close attention to this because it is very important, it means you are on the right track.
> 
> This is were experiance comes into play  and you to will get there it takes time a very long time to be a good grower, so be patient, "Rome was not built in one day"
> 
> Your plants are mainly lacking nitro, mag, and calcium the cal mag plus will not only help correct those problems it will also help your plant feed better, your plants are still not green enouth, you want your plants to be dark green, just look out of your window at mother Nature, and that is the green you want to see in your garden.
> 
> I would up the nutes 5ml a galon from were you are now, so if you are using 10ml per galon for example bump it up to 15ml per galon, and forget about ppm numbers, if I were you I would put that meter away, your eyes are the most acurate meter you could ever own.


 
i will bump it up, but to make me feel better i'm still going to record pH and PPM daily.
i'm already at 15 ml per gallon.  i should bump it up to 20 ml per gallon?


----------



## surreptitious

actually, just checked.  i'm at a little less than 15ml per gallon...it's like 12.  i'll bump it up to 15ml / gallon.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> actually, just checked. i'm at a little less than 15ml per gallon...it's like 12. i'll bump it up to 15ml / gallon.


 
Yes bring it to 15ml per galon, and keep it there untill you get the cal mag plus, but get the cal mag plus asap, start the cal mag plus at 5ml per galon, when you flip to 12/12 bump the cal mag plus to 10ml per galon. 

Its it fine if you use your meters for piece of mind, but do not rely on them, as your grow progresses takes pics for your logbook, and put a note on each pick of what you did to correct any problem you may have had, from nute deficiencies, etc.


----------



## pcduck

Pepper said:
			
		

> Cal mag plus should be used from day one, and not only in flower.
> Many, many growers mistaken deficiencies for nute burn, I will say that probably 8 out of 10 times a garden will have deficiencies and not nute burn.



They may be how you use it but I believe in not using more additives than what the plant requires when it requires it. I have never had a mg deficiencies in veg only in flower. So why would I want to use something that is not needed till it is needed? I have seen a lot more nute burn from new growers trying to grow their plants to fast than I have seen deficiencies. Most deficiencies I have seen could have been corrected by having the correct ph and not by adding a bunch of additives. IME/O


----------



## dr pyro

duck you are 100 percent correct mag cal should not be needed  until flower where the plant starts to use it.it does look like in some pics there is nute burn. he clearly has a def but its not mag cal.ph is very important and plays a huge part in the uptake of nutes.well we shall see ina week if the problem gets worse by then


----------



## dr pyro

did you ever get a filter for your water or u still using tap. also i never had any def with gh products used in the formula i posted back couple pages


----------



## Pepper

pcduck said:
			
		

> They may be how you use it but I believe in not using more additives than what the plant requires when it requires it. I have never had a mg deficiencies in veg only in flower. So why would I want to use something that is not needed till it is needed? I have seen a lot more nute burn from new growers trying to grow their plants to fast than I have seen deficiencies. Most deficiencies I have seen could have been corrected by having the correct ph and not by adding a bunch of additives. IME/O


 

Cal mag plus is not an additive.


----------



## Pepper

dr pyro said:
			
		

> duck you are 100 percent correct mag cal should not be needed until flower where the plant starts to use it.it does look like in some pics there is nute burn. he clearly has a def but its not mag cal.ph is very important and plays a huge part in the uptake of nutes.well we shall see ina week if the problem gets worse by then


 

You could learn a little bit from this mans grow, please dont take this the wrong way.
Stick around and you may learn a thing or two.


----------



## dr pyro

please dont take this the wrong way. but so far you have misdiagnosed a few times on his problems so what im i supposed to be learning.am i supposed to be learning that once you buy an add every additive and spend 100 bucks doing it you will adventully find the problem. by the time you add everthing and figure it out your plant is probally gonna b dead. i will say it again mag  cal is not needed. i truly beleive his problem begins with the hard water.


----------



## dr pyro

ill check back in a week or 2 to see if the cal mag did the trick


----------



## surreptitious

take it easy fellas.  i have not been using my tap water.  on 10/29 dr. pyro said my water ppms were too high and i bought some distilled water and have been using that since it was mentioned.  the ppm of the distilled water before nutes is zero.  i'm sorry, i thought i had mentioned that in a previous post, but read through them and i did not.

so, i think that both the increase of my nutes and changing water to distilled has helped my plants.  i have also trimmed all the dead looking leaves and topped the plants.

they have new growth and are getting bigger.  soon, i would like to switch the plants to 12/12 because i'm not sure how much bigger they will get in bloom.

so, i believe that both dr. pyro and pepper have been correct.  i'm still experiencing burnt tips, but nothing like the ones that i had before...look at the pictures from the beginning of this thread.  when i get home i will take pictures of the entire 3x3 space to show the contrast.

i appreciate everybody's help.  just want to clear up the small burnt tips i've got on a few leaves from the crop.  i have ordered some cal-mag.  it wont be in until next week.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> take it easy fellas. i have not been using my tap water. on 10/29 dr. pyro said my water ppms were too high and i bought some distilled water and have been using that since it was mentioned. the ppm of the distilled water before nutes is zero. i'm sorry, i thought i had mentioned that in a previous post, but read through them and i did not.
> 
> so, i think that both the increase of my nutes and changing water to distilled has helped my plants. i have also trimmed all the dead looking leaves and topped the plants.
> 
> they have new growth and are getting bigger. soon, i would like to switch the plants to 12/12 because i'm not sure how much bigger they will get in bloom.
> 
> so, i believe that both dr. pyro and pepper have been correct. i'm still experiencing burnt tips, but nothing like the ones that i had before...look at the pictures from the beginning of this thread. when i get home i will take pictures of the entire 3x3 space to show the contrast.
> 
> i appreciate everybody's help. just want to clear up the small burnt tips i've got on a few leaves from the crop. i have ordered some cal-mag. it wont be in until next week.


 




You will be able to flip to 12/12 soon,  you want your garden to be 100% healthy before doing so. By you being at 15ml per galon with the nutes, and with the addition of cal mag plus your garden should be nice and healthy in a matter of 2 to 3 days, then you can flip to 12/12, once you flip to 12/12 continue using vegge nutes, only swich to flowering nutes 2 weeks into 12/12.

Your plants will not get tall because you toped them so no need to worry about plant hight.


----------



## pcduck

Pepper said:
			
		

> Cal mag plus is not an additive.



It is in my book.


----------



## surreptitious

Pepper said:
			
		

> You will be able to flip to 12/12 soon, you want your garden to be 100% healthy before doing so. By you being at 15ml per galon with the nutes, and with the addition of cal mag plus your garden should be nice and healthy in a matter of 2 to 3 days, then you can flip to 12/12, once you flip to 12/12 continue using vegge nutes, only swich to flowering nutes 2 weeks into 12/12.
> 
> Your plants will not get tall because you toped them so no need to worry about plant hight.


 
general hydroponic's feeding schedule says to use both the veg and bloom nutes for transition to flowering.

http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/feeding_charts/GH_KeepItSimple_Recirculating.pdf

remember that i'm using the flora nova nutes.


----------



## dr pyro

hey serp if you use formula provided you will have no issues with def unless your ph is off


----------



## pcduck

:yeahthat:


----------



## surreptitious

so, then my nutes / water ratio is still too low.  i should have followed GH's schedule from the beginning.  i read so much about people over fertilizing their stuff that i underfertilized them.  my pH is dead on right now.  it stays between 5.6 and 6.0.

i'll keep the nutes at 15 ml / gallon for a week and bump it up to 18-20 ml / gallon.  

i'll take pictures of the girls tomorrow morning and post them up.  i think they are looking good, but they are still a lighter green than i would like.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> general hydroponic's feeding schedule says to use both the veg and bloom nutes for transition to flowering.
> 
> http://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/feeding_charts/GH_KeepItSimple_Recirculating.pdf
> 
> remember that i'm using the flora nova nutes.


 

Follow their recomendation, but only after 2 wks should you swich to full bloom nutes, I dont know if you understand what I mean.


----------



## Pepper

dr pyro said:
			
		

> hey serp if you use formula provided you will have no issues with def unless your ph is off


 

Sorry but that is not true, reason being is because not all strains can take the same ec/ppm.
Heither in hydroponics or soil, the proper way to feed a garden is to start the nutes at a moderate ec/ppm and by reading the plant the nutes are either increased or decreased.
Never follow the chart on any nute bottle it will only lead to disaster in the garden, it takes a trained eye to be a good farmer, that comes with time.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> so, then my nutes / water ratio is still too low. i should have followed GH's schedule from the beginning. i read so much about people over fertilizing their stuff that i underfertilized them. my pH is dead on right now. it stays between 5.6 and 6.0.
> 
> i'll keep the nutes at 15 ml / gallon for a week and bump it up to 18-20 ml / gallon.
> 
> i'll take pictures of the girls tomorrow morning and post them up. i think they are looking good, but they are still a lighter green than i would like.


 

Do not confuse yourself, "listen to your garden" it will never lie to you  

Has I mentioned above never follow the chart on the nute bottle. Do not bump your nutes up just for the sake of bumping the nutes up, you bump the nutes up when the garden "tells" you to do so.

In your case because your garden is still llight green in color you can bump it to 20ml per galon but do not raise it anymore than that just add the cal mag plus at 5ml per galon on top of the 20ml per galon of nutes, and on 12/12 the cal mag plus shoud be 10ml per galon on top of the nutes.


----------



## Pepper

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Is this the "disaster" you speak of? If so then bring on the disaster! This grow is three different strains, some indica and some hybrid.. All using a chart...


 

You need to understand one thing, this is not a pissing contest  
You are an experianced grower that lucked out with the chart working on your particular strains (the lazy way to grow) but that is not the correct way to grow any plant, one must think and learn from trial and error, the man that started this tread is not an experianced grower.

I'm trying to teach the man that started this thread the proper way to grow a graden, by learning out to read the plants, and not by following company charts or by using fancy meters that are nothing but a waist of money.

If growing was has simple has looking at the back of a bottle getting the nut strengh, and playing with fancy meters everyone would be a master grower but in the real World that is not how it works.


----------



## LEFTHAND

*whats wrong with them ladies Mindz.. there looking nice.. green mojo... not that you need any..
LH*


----------



## surreptitious

pictures attached as promised.  you can still see some leaves that have the burnt tips.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Im not trying to get into a "pissing contest", I just notice you regularly undermine some of the experienced growers on this site... Its like your saying if its not your way it isnt the right way.. So lets all dismiss what scientists with degrees that do this for a living say, we will all listen to you so teach away wise one! I will step out of "your" thread now and let you have center stage!


 
mindzeye, this is my thread and i welcome anybody that is willing to provide friendly helpful advice.

nice pic btw


----------



## surreptitious

thanks mindz

it's a 400 watt metal halide bulb 16 inches from the tops of the plants.


----------



## surreptitious

yes, there's a scubber that feeds via a duct to the light and then from the light outside of the tent into my crawl space under the house.  the temp stays at about 77 degrees in there.  before that was installed the temps were well over 90 when i was testing the climate.  i will move the lights a little lower.  

they are supposed to be white widow, but it could be white widow crossed with something else...who knows...doesnt really matter to me as long the buds are big and high is long lol

i think i'm going to give these guys prolly around 2 more weeks and then switch them to 12/12


----------



## DonJones

surreptitious,

Amen to who cares what the variety really is so long as they give good yield and good smokes!

It looks like your coming along pretty good.  Good luck and remember these plants grew wild nearly all over the world for eons without fancy nutrients, PHed water, HID lights, so if you are careful not to go to extremes, the most you will do is to cut down the yield or the high, maybe both.

Pepper and Mindzeye are both correct and both wrong.  There is a place for seat of the pants growing and trial and error BUT there is also a place for using "crutches/aids" like meters special nutrients and the experiences of others.  Personally I'm too old to learn enough to not need the crutches.  I doubt if I'll live long enough to walk without them and I know I'll never cease to seek the benefits of other's experiences.  However, I do NOT advocate  blindly following any one's advice if it doesn't make sense to me.

I'm a firm believer in listening to the scientists so long as it makes sense.  I also seek the advice of the manufacturer of the products I choose to use as a starting point.  After all they are there to both make a good product but to sell them too.  If they just kick their prices up and tell you the wrong way to use them, then they soon start loosing customers to companies that make less expensive products and tell you the correct way to use them.  I have some very experienced friends that have nearly identical operations, grow from the same cloned grandmothers but us different nute lines.  One spends in the neighborhood of $1000 per cycle (I believe he is using AN), another one spending around $500 per cycle (I think he uses either Bonticare or GH)  and another spending around $50 per cycle using FHD nutrients.  All threeare growing 10 plants per cycle, and on the average they all get within 10% of the same yield and I can't tell you who grew the stuff when I smoke it unless I already know. Now I have no complaint on how someone wants to spend their money, BUT I'm sure as heck going to try the FDH before the other more expensive lines.  I also have made it a practice to to contact the manufacturer directly and ask them directly, which of your products are necessary and which ones make the biggest difference for the dollar spent.  I also ask questions like how does the media effect your advice.  Right now I'm uisng only FHD's 3 part basic nutrients until I get more money and can start using other of their products and I'm amazed the difference it has made in my plants being grown side by side from the same mothers in both our scratch dirt and black gold.  I am about to stat into WaterFarm hydro and wil guarantee you that I will start with the FHD until I get a lot more picky about my weed and a lot more money available.  I'm convinced from watching the various forums and my personal acquaintances that YOUR TECHNIQUE IS A LOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN YOUR CHOICE OF NUTRIENTS, YOUR CHOICE OF LIGHT, OR YOUR CHOICE OF MANY DIFFERENT ITEMS THAT GO INTO THE OPERATIONS!  I have known people who get absolutely out standing yields with killer smoke in the most primitive operations with the most far fetched sounding nutrients and techniques and others that have the cutting edge of every thing including the most "in" nutrients that can't get half of the yield that the primitive grower gets and their weed is less than half as good as the primitive guys.  It seems like the difference is the degree of loving care that the plants are given, but I've seen some growers just scatter seeds  in moist sub-irrigate areas, walk away from it and come back when they theink it is harvest time, chop them down, dry them and smoke them and have good yields with killer smoke.

Don't be afraid to ask questions, read the forums regularly to get a feel for the different posters and THINK about every thing you read before you try it and you will do great.  There is more knowledge on these forums than any one person can ever learn.  Personally I tend to be more acepting of thow e posters who *aren't* always insisting that their way is the best or only way.

Good smoking and remember it is hard to get bad smoke, it is just some is better than others.


----------



## Pepper

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Im not trying to get into a "pissing contest", I just notice you regularly undermine some of the experienced growers on this site... Its like your saying if its not your way it isnt the right way.. So lets all dismiss what scientists with degrees that do this for a living say, we will all listen to you so teach away wise one! I will step out of "your" thread now and let you have center stage!


 


Please do not take me the wrong way. Im am not a know it all nobody knows it all, I'm old school, I have been a farmer for over 20 years, I am also a legal medical patient and a caregiver such as yourself.
And this is not my thread and it never was, I am trying to teach the man the correct way to grow, sort of like baking a cake from scratch versus baking a cake from a box that is already pre mixed.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> pictures attached as promised. you can still see some leaves that have the burnt tips.


 

Very nice great job. Can you take a close up of the plants I can not really tell the shade of green they are, it looks like you may not need to bump the nutes to 20ml per galon, it looks like you may just need to add the cal mag plus but let me see a close up first.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> thanks mindz
> 
> it's a 400 watt metal halide bulb 16 inches from the tops of the plants.


 

You can drop the ligh, to the point were you still have good coverage of your cannopy and if you put your hand over the cannopy for a minute or so your hand does not feel uncorfurtable, 12" may be the sweet spot give it a try.


----------



## pcduck

Pepper said:
			
		

> I'm trying to teach the man that started this thread the proper way to grow a graden, by learning out to read the plants, and not by following company charts or by using fancy meters that are nothing but a waist of money.



I think it is easier to read a _waste of money meter_ than it is for a beginner to read a plant. By the time most beginners have read their plants in DWC the damage may already be done. Especially when it comes to *ph*. My suggestion is to get that waste of money meter, correlate what you read with what your plant is doing and become a successful and experience grower and not a trial n error ex-grower.

Pepper it is great that you have enough knowledge and experience to be able to read your garden, but to say it is easier, then to read a meter, is just false. While yes a newbie may see a light green and think they need more nitrogen which would be correct but is the reason they need more nitrogen because of consumption or because of nutrient lock out due to ph? I think a _waste of money_ ph meter would be able to tell them their answer pretty quick. Just my $0.02


----------



## Pepper

pcduck said:
			
		

> I think it is easier to read a _waste of money meter_ than it is for a beginner to read a plant. By the time most beginners have read their plants in DWC the damage may already be done. Especially when it comes to *ph*. My suggestion is to get that waste of money meter, correlate what you read with what your plant is doing and become a successful and experience grower and not a trial n error ex-grower.
> 
> Pepper it is great that you have enough knowledge and experience to be able to read your garden, but to say it is easier, then to read a meter, is just false. While yes a newbie may see a light green and think they need more nitrogen which would be correct but is the reason they need more nitrogen because of consumption or because of nutrient lock out due to ph? I think a _waste of money_ ph meter would be able to tell them their answer pretty quick. Just my $0.02


 


You are correct. I never told the man a ph meter was a waist of money, I was talking about ppm/ec meters.


----------



## dr pyro

ah the formula i posted was not from bottle and yes you can tweek it but if you follow it and tweek very little you b fine. have you tried that formula ?i have with 12 diffrent strains seems to work for me and many others here on mp


----------



## surreptitious

i appreciate everybody's help and words of encouragement.  i could not have done any of this without your help.

like mindzeye said before i wish i had followed GH's schedule precisely before i tried doing my own thing.  for my next cycle i'm going to follow it exactly and go from there.  i'll do a grow log in the correct location on the forum for this.

dr. pyro: the schedule you posted looks good, but i'm not using the 3 part GH nutes, i'm using the 2 part flora nova series.  i think i'll try the 3 part in the future.

i will post of close pics of the ladies tomorrow morning.  

thanks again!


----------



## surreptitious

attached are some close up pictures.  it seems that more leaves are getting that burnt tip.  should i increase my nutes to 20ml / gallon?


----------



## Pepper

Yes.
And has soon has you receive the cal mag plus, add that at 5ml per galon.
Using distiled water or ro water cal mag plus is a must in hydroponics.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> If your getting burnt tips with leaves curling down increasing the nutes would be the wrong thing to do, it looks to me like you have minor nute burn I would back off the nutes a little and wait for the plants to get bigger before increasing the nutes again... Cal-Mag is a great nutrient and I use it also, I have used floraNova and I noticed it lacks in the mag department... What are your night time temps? Somtimes that light green in the middle of the growth can mean its getting a little too cold..



69.9 degrees farenheit is the lowest the temp gets in there and the highest being 80 degrees.

the burnt tips are not curling down.  the problem with backing off the nutes is that my pH will go crazy.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> How much nutes are you using per gallon? And if your temps are right then i would say your getting a mag def.. When you say the leaves tips are beginning to burn are you talking about old growth towards the bottom or newer growth towards the top of the plant? I dont see any burnt tips on the new growth....


 
older leaves towards the bottom.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> I took a closer look at your pics and on your new growth Im still seeing signs of a PH issue and a mag def... I edited some of your pics an circled the problem areas i can see on the newer growth so that you can learn what to look for.. PH issues are circled in Red and Mag problems in Blue. Some of your Mag problems may be because of the PH issue..


 
thank you for that!  but my pH ranges from 5.4 to 6.1...that is the opitimal range right?

so, the cal-mag will help?  i did order some and it should be here tomorrow.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> thank you for that! but my pH ranges from 5.4 to 6.1...that is the opitimal range right?
> 
> so, the cal-mag will help? i did order some and it should be here tomorrow.


 

Your ph is fine, no need to worry. Your ph is not causing nute lockout because your ph is on point, and do not lower your nutes, you do not have nute burn and you never did I believe I already said that before to, you should raise your nutes to 20ml per galon has you were going to, remember that your garden should be the same color green has Mother Nature out your window   a nice rich green. 

Are you now starting to understand that growing from "scratch" is much more dificult than following a chart? If so that is good, and this grow will teach you to become a farmer from "scratch" and trust me not to may people these days can do that because they get "lost" if they dont have a chart to go by, your garden is your chart it will tell you what it needs and does not need, you are learning at a prety good rate I must say.

In the first page of this thread I posted that you had a K deficiency, and you still do, go back to the first page and read it.
Tap water contains minerals and if using tap water that is not hard one may be able to get away without using cal mag, BUT distiled water or ro water contain nothing, therefore cal mag must be used because hydroponic nutes do not contain enouth minerals in them to support an mj garden.


----------



## pcduck

get your ph right first before doing anything. 

5.4 is on the low side. 6.1 is to high. 5.8 is what you want. If you are having wild ph fluctuations in your nutes, I would have to ask what are you using for ph adjustment and how are you mixing your nutes? A plant that is feeding normal should raise ph slightly. Are you allowing the buffers in your water to take effect before adjusting? IMO throwing more nutes/additives at a problem without proper ph is compounding the problem. Even in nature plants are not perfect, leaves yellow and die, do not form properly, ect.


----------



## dr pyro

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: south shore of Lake Erie
Posts: 5,378 
Thanks: 7517 
Thanked 6568 Times in 2933 Posts 

see all that above look at the post count i shouldnt have to say any more.. but i will look at his posts. duck here is a very experienced grower. for the love of god please take his advice


----------



## surreptitious

ok, you guys have given me a lot of info in a short time, i will try to answer all the questions.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> The older leaves that are damaged will curl up and die then fall off, once the damage is done it cant be reversed.. Always look to the new growth for signs of burn and deficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5.4 is out of range, your plants wont start to absorb magnesium until 5.8 PH and 6.1 is barely out of range... 5.8 is the optimal range not higher and not lower..
> 
> Refer to this Ph chart it may clear some things up
> 
> http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1833&d=1141100090


 
what i meant was that my pH starts at about 5.4 or 5.5 and then slowly raises to 6.1-6.2 over about a week and half...then i've been changing the nutes out and starting with a fresh batch.  before pepper suggested that i add more nutes my pH would swing from 5.5 to 7 in a matter of hours.


----------



## surreptitious

pcduck said:
			
		

> get your ph right first before doing anything.
> 
> 5.4 is on the low side. 6.1 is to high. 5.8 is what you want. If you are having wild ph fluctuations in your nutes, I would have to ask what are you using for ph adjustment and how are you mixing your nutes? A plant that is feeding normal should raise ph slightly. Are you allowing the buffers in your water to take effect before adjusting? IMO throwing more nutes/additives at a problem without proper ph is compounding the problem. Even in nature plants are not perfect, leaves yellow and die, do not form properly, ect.


 
i'm using the powder form of GH's pH up and down.  what would you consider to be wide pH fluctuations? 5.4-5.5 to 6.1-6.2 over a week and half to two weeks...is that wild?

i mix my nutes with the distilled water, let sit for an hour or so, then i check the pH and adjust accordingly.

the reason why i have the pH low from the beginning was i thought that you wanted some swing from low to high to allow nutrients to be absorbed as different nutrients are absorbed at different pH's...is 5.4 to 6.1 too big of a swing?


----------



## surreptitious

dr pyro said:
			
		

> Join Date: Oct 2008
> Location: south shore of Lake Erie
> Posts: 5,378
> Thanks: 7517
> Thanked 6568 Times in 2933 Posts
> 
> see all that above look at the post count i shouldnt have to say any more.. but i will look at his posts. duck here is a very experienced grower. for the love of god please take his advice


 
i hear you!


----------



## surreptitious

also the twist and curl'd leaves only seem to be on one of the plants, not all of them.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Start your Ph at 5.8, top off water daily and check PH if it takes a week for your PH to raise that much then its pretty stable, just check your PH daily and keep it at 5.8 your plants will thank you for it....


 
ok, start my pH at 5.8.  add water daily.  check pH daily.  if it's not 5.8 then use pH up and pH down to get it to 5.8?  it's ok to do this daily?


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> The older leaves that are damaged will curl up and die then fall off, once the damage is done it cant be reversed.. Always look to the new growth for signs of burn and deficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 5.4 is out of range, your plants wont start to absorb magnesium until 5.8 PH and 6.1 is barely out of range... 5.8 is the optimal range not higher and not lower..
> 
> Refer to this Ph chart it may clear some things up
> 
> http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1833&d=1141100090


 
ok, so the reason why i have a mag deficiency is because my pH has not been from 5.8 to 6.1 enough?


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Cool, then you are just getting the first signs of improper PH, When I mix my nutes I adjust PH to 5.8 if you have to use PH up add it slowly and give it hours to raise then check PH again, PH down is much faster acting after just a few minutes it will adjust your PH down.. Then daily usually in the morning I top off water and check PH, usually only minor adjustments are needed to keep it at 5.8 PH.. And it is fine to do this every day...


 
are you adding a certain amount of water? or if you're using a 5 gallon rez you just top it off to 5 gallons?

my rez is like 15 gallons and i only put 5 gallons of nutes /water at a time.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Your plants are going to transpire and use water in your res the bigger they get the more they use, If you use 5 gallons of nutrient mix then mark where the water line is with 5 gallons in it, every day just fill it to that line...


 
i will do this.  on wed i'm leaving on vacation and will be having a friend check on my plants.  i will be gone for 10 days.  i'm going to put 10 gallons (maybe more) of nutes / water in before i leave and i'll have him top off with water every morning and then adjust the pH to 5.9.

when i get back i will change out the res and start it all over.  after that i would like to flower these guys and start another batch of clones and do it correct from the beginning this time.


----------



## surreptitious

i'm sorry, 5.8.


----------



## Pepper

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Since you say you are so good at "reading your garden" you surley know the signs of improper PH, twisting and folding leaves is the first followed by nutrient deficiency.. Look at his pics there are twisting and folding leaves on the new growth.. If you think 5.4 PH is on then you need to study the PH charts, at 5.4 ph phosphorus, and magnesium are both locked out. At 6.1 PH Potash, and calcium are locked out. Potash has one of the highest absorption ranges on the chart, it ranges from 5.0-6.0 it very hard to have a potash deficiency.. If he does have a potash deficiency why are you telling him to use cal-mag? There isnt any Potash in it..
> 
> 
> surreptitious- you have three experienced growers here telling you that pepper is leading you in the wrong direction, he has been trying to help you now for 1 month and 6 days and he hasnt helped you much, with your plants being as old as they are they should be huge or you should be in your 3rd week of flower by now.. I looked at pepper past posts and threads he started, he has never even posted a single pic of his ultimate meter free garden... He also stated he has 20 years experience with growing but look at some of the first threads he started, he asks the usual noobie question such as what should I buy, how should I set this up, what strains should I grow indoors, how long should I veg... He even has a thread about the new PH meter he bought found here
> http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40869
> 
> By looking at his past threads I have found several lies he has told all of us in this thread... See for yourself, click on his name then go to public profile then scroll down and hit find all threads started by pepper... A year ago he was a total noob... If I were you I wouldnt listen to a word this guy says...
> 
> Do these sound like questions a 20 year veteran would ask?


 


This just made my morning, thank you. You are to funny  

I forgot more about growing than you will ever now in your lifetime. The posts that I have made were to get a feel for the people here on the site, and there are a few nice people here, including some very well known breaders  

Have you ever heard the term " play stupid and you will learn" 
I find it interesting that you say Im a know it all, but the truth of the matter is that you should look in the mirror first, before you start to point fingers  

If you have a problem with my posts send me a pm, dont turn the mans thread into a pissing contest (grow up) the man is trying to improve and he has done so, so keep your personal oppinions about me to yourself or pm only, respect the mans thread.


----------



## Pepper

surreptitious said:
			
		

> ok, start my pH at 5.8. add water daily. check pH daily. if it's not 5.8 then use pH up and pH down to get it to 5.8? it's ok to do this daily?


 

You should never adjust your ph when you first add nutes, the ph will change on its own, and a ph drift is good as we already went over that somewere on this thread.

I will now step to the side lines, I dont want your thread to turn into a pissing contest, I'm to old for that, this thread is about your garden and not about me, so best of luck in your grow, and keep up the good work


----------



## surreptitious

Pepper said:
			
		

> You should never adjust your ph when you first add nutes, the ph will change on its own, and a ph drift is good as we already went over that somewere on this thread.
> 
> I will now step to the side lines, I dont want your thread to turn into a pissing contest, I'm to old for that, this thread is about your garden and not about me, so best of luck in your grow, and keep up the good work


 
thank you pepper.  i appreciate your help


----------



## pcduck

I find the larger the rez the easier it is to maintain ph when mixing.

This is my formula for mixing nutes. I use GH 3 part.

Fill rez with water and turn on air stones for 24 hours

After 24 hours add nutes and aerate for another 24 hours

24 hours later check ph and adjust. Aerate for 24 hours and check and readjust till desired ph level is achieved.

Once desired ph is achieved I put nute solution into my 5 gallon buckets at the 3 gallon level.

I allow the the nute level to drop to the 2 gallon level before adding ph adjusted water to top her off at the 3 gallon level again.

I am in the flower stage and my mix is a 6 micro, 14 bloom, and 2 cal/mag ml / gallon for a total of 22 ml / gallon. I will slowly be upping this till completion(except for the cal/mag). My ph ranges from 5.6 to 6.0 in a week before changing out all the buckets once a week.


----------



## surreptitious

ok, emptied the rez and put a fresh batch of nutes in.  10 gallons distilled water and 150 ml of GH flora nova grow series nutes.  i adjusted with pH up to 5.8.

tomorrow morning i will top off the rez with distilled water then adjust the pH to 5.8.

on thursday i am going out of town and will not be back until december 2nd.  i have a friend that is going to take care of my ladies until i get back.  i will give him the instructions to top off the rez with distilled water and then adjust the pH to 5.8 each day.

when i get back i will empty the rez and put fresh nutes in.  hopefully all will be well while i'm gone.  after that i will analyze to determine if i can flower these ladies and go from there.

wish me luck.  thanks again for everybody's help.  see you in 11 days!


----------



## dr pyro

minds you hit the nail on the head i too looked back to see if there was a garden posted by the vet and nothin. surp with  alll those additives you added im suprised you can still go on the trip. haha just kiddin hey have fun enjoy the holiday


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> Awesome! Have fun on your trip! Im sure if your friend maintains it well you will have a nice surprise when you get back!!


 
thanks!


----------



## surreptitious

dr pyro said:
			
		

> minds you hit the nail on the head i too looked back to see if there was a garden posted by the vet and nothin. surp with alll those additives you added im suprised you can still go on the trip. haha just kiddin hey have fun enjoy the holiday


 
i didnt add anything!  the only additive i used was clearex and that was just to flush them...it's not still in there.

thanks though, i'm looking forward to the time off.


----------



## dr pyro

i was being a smart @@@


----------



## surreptitious

ok, i am back from my trip and attached are some pictures of the progress...honestly i'm in shock.

i'm still getting some burnt tips, but that may be, because they havent gotten any new nutes in 11 days.  

they have been drinking at least 1 and 1/2 gallons of water a day.

they are way to tall in my tent to flower right now and i will need to trim them.  was thinking about trimming them and then hitting them with bushmasters. 

suggestions?  i really appreciate everybody's help and this regiment has worked!


----------



## surreptitious

thanks mindzeye.  yes, i'm definately going follow your advice about the trimming.  i dont think i have much room to train much, but will take a picture when i get that all done.

what are your thoughts on bushmaster from humbolt county's own?

i also picked up some gravity and snow storm ultra by humbolt to use during flowering.


----------



## surreptitious

MindzEye said:
			
		

> If you are getting burnt tips on leaves then your nutes are too strong, back off a little on the nutes, just 200-300ppms...


 
but since i've been adding water everday wouldnt the nutes be diluted already?


----------



## surreptitious

a friend of mine suggested to use the bushmaster for 3-4 days with plain water, then change to the bloom schedule and flip the lights to 12/12.  i'm going to try that out.

i'm interested in using the bushmaster because i'm almost out of room in my tent.  i cannot afford for these plants to get 2 to 3 times the size they are currently at.  i could trim them and veg for a little longer, but the bushmaster is advertised to inhibit vertical growth and my friend has had great results with it.

wish me luck.  i'll post my results.


----------



## surreptitious

ok, so i used the bushmasters and noticed that the tops of the plants started to bunch up with closer node spacing.  after that, i lollipop'd them and am going to veg them for another week or so before switching the lights to 12/12.  things are looking good though.  

looking forward to the bloom cycle!


----------

