# PH in organic soil



## saycheese (Jan 10, 2009)

many different opinions exist on wether to bother with the ph of the feed and water when using an organic soil 

grow shops selling the stuff insist that its not necessary to adjust ph
because its naturally buffered (maybe got some lime in there, i threw the bag away, didnt look at the time) and should take care of itself

the soils usually contain some nutes for vegging, some more than others and some even come 'nute free' so you dose them with veg nute as soon as the plants can take it

i dont think the issue i want to address would even arise in a medium that has no veg nutes in it when you pot up

the nutes, when added to the water, alter its ph (make it more acidic) 
which, at the recommended full strengths for cannabis, leave my water at what seems to be an acceptable ph to feed (PH7)

if the soil is prepacked with time release nutes either in the mix you bought, or one you concocted yourself you wont be feeding too much veg nutes with your water, if any at all, because the nutes already present will sustain the plant nicely for 4 weeks (so they say)


If your tap water has a ph level thats not optimum for the plants and they dont need food what do you about the ph level when you water? 
just feed it at, say, ph 8.2! or worse)
and what about a healthy feed:feed:feed:water cycle or a backing off of fertiliser? does a ph fluctuation not do harm in hydro?

im not sure but i think using hydrponic ph down to do it might have bad results regarding acidity of the soil but then surely repeated waterings at ph8.2 during the veg phase (in which they need no nutes for four weeks) would  drag it upwards, to possibly alkaline if unchecked. 

is the simple answer organic ph down?
and dish out all waterings and feedings at the same ph as the medium so as not to lead it astray?

looking at a chart that shows what ph level each nutrient etc is best uptaken at i would have thought that a little healthy sweep through the ph range would be beneficial but any feed that needs buffering surely will alter the ph of the medium its fed into 
am i thinking correctly?

all my babies hate ph fluctuation i can tell

*really i want somebody to say 'use organic ph down and feed at the same ph as your medium assuming medium is the right ph for mj in the first place' (6.4 is good yes?) this is the direction im thinking into
anybody else out there know the answers.....?




this is written from my experience so far with the biocanna products,
but i know some other organic products are similar


----------



## Friend-of-a-friend (Jan 10, 2009)

I bought premix soil my first grow, closely monitored the PH of my feedings, used one of those junk prong soil testers and all said my soil PH was fine, but my plants still showed stress. Then I took the advice of numerous ppl on here and checked my runoff PH, and it was below 5! So from this point forward I just check my runoff PH, as it seems to be way more accurate than the probes testers. And as for hydro, Andy is a very prominent hydro guy on here, and he says that the PH is the single most important thing he considers in his bucket setups.


----------



## bluealein56 (Jan 10, 2009)

the ph is important for growing just about anything. They told you not to worry about adjusting the ph of the nutrients because they are already at the optimal level(most of the time) But its your soil that you have to worry about, Like a FRIEND OF A FRIEND  said, check the run  off that way you know whats goin on down there. i think maybe you just understood them when they told you not to worry about the ph.


----------



## saycheese (Jan 11, 2009)

The grow shop stressed not to ph the water/feed mix before watering.

all they said was "the soil wil buffer it"

no mention of what acid/alkaline feed would actually do to the ph of the medium (is substrate the right word for soil?)

last time i visited i still had no real grasp of the way ph swings and why.
now i understand the correct ranges are for optimum uptake of ALL NUTES AT ONCE.

my biggest fear is that puttin hydro ph down into my organic soil did not help.

is the ph down acid residing in my soil, dragging the feed ph down?

is the effect cumulative (think this the right word)
could watering a medium at ph6 with water thats just acidic (6.9) every still add to its acidity

im working under assumption that its not , and that enough applications of water at a certain ph would take a medium to that ph in time

bringing me back to my most important question. 

**should i always maintain a water/feed ph (organically) thats also at the optimum ph for the soil to be at , would this stop the soil ph from straying ??????

and as well...

if this is the case, what should i use to maintain that ph.

im thinkin if you ph down and its safe ie not adding to acid buildup,
then the only acid that can accumulate is the feed, any excess the plant hasnt got round to using.

if this is the case an acidic reading in the soil could only indicate i need to back off the nutes a touch? am i on the right track??? or am i offroading naked in peru on a unicycle??

I AM ALWAYS VERY STONED PLEASE EXCUSE ANY MISTAKES OR ANY POINT AT WHICH I AM MISTAKEN PLEASE CORRECT ME IM MAINLY JUST THINKING ALOUD


----------



## saycheese (Jan 11, 2009)

runoff was ph5 on the 1 out  of ten i tested (limited supply of equipt.) 

may not have been the most accurate test but i think it was just above 5

i gave a sprinkling of garden lime and its buds have got bigger since with nothing getting worse (whole crop yellow except top quarter now)

givin em all a bit of 'N'

i feel at four weeks of flower i feel should have more bud, each tip bud , side to side, from pistil tip to tip , aint even two inch.

my conditions apart from the ph thing are real close to what they should be

temp never more than 30 
unfortunately as low as 18-20 at nite


----------



## bluealein56 (Jan 11, 2009)

30 C? hopefully not 30 F. anyways. if i were you i would use distilled water for your watering and feeding needs, as this is perfectly ph balanced. if your using good fertz then your ph should be about right when you add in your water and solution. if you are using an all orgaince proffesional soil and using disltilled water then you s hould have that big of a problem with ph vcariations


----------



## saycheese (Jan 12, 2009)

by distilled water you mean bottled right? im not certain what 'distilled' actually means .

i got a water filter.  would that help?


----------



## pcduck (Jan 12, 2009)

saycheese said:
			
		

> by distilled water you mean bottled right? im not certain what 'distilled' actually means .
> 
> i got a water filter.  would that help?



Distilled water is water that that has been boiled.*Then* the steam is collected and cooled till it forms water again. *This*water that has been collected and cooled is distilled water. Ph is very important!


----------



## bombbudpuffa (Jan 12, 2009)

> should i always maintain a water/feed ph (organically) thats also at the optimum ph for the soil to be at , would this stop the soil ph from straying ??????


Yes, you want to adjust your ph even if you're growing organic ime. I'm growing organic atm. I fed one of my plants alkaline water and it's def showing. I have brown spots all over the leaves. All the other plants beside her, fed with ph balanced water, are healthy as can be.


----------



## blancolighter (Jan 12, 2009)

Alright, I had problems understanding alot of what you're asking, so I'll just try laying out alot of what I know and hopefully it will help.

First of all, I wouldn't ask for advice from your hydro guys again if they are telling you stuff like your soils PH doesn't matter. Thats silly, your soils ph, organic or not, is probably the most important thing you can keep track of in your gardening. It sounds like you've looked at the ph charts, soyou know that you really need to keep your ph in a sweet spot to properly absorb all the nutrients it needs. If you don't pay attention to your ph, you might as well not even feed your plants.

Ok first off, let me ask about this:



> my biggest fear is that puttin hydro ph down into my organic soil did not help.
> 
> is the ph down acid residing in my soil, dragging the feed ph down?
> 
> ...



Now did you put that PH down directly into the soil, or did you mix it with water to bring the waters ph down? If you put it directly into the soil, you should start flushing now, because straight PH Down like a 3 or less on the PH scale and would definately keep most every nute from reaching your plant. If you mixed it with water first and got your proper ph in the water, then watered the plant, then all is good. 

Also to answer your question in the quotes, no it wouldn't add to its acidity. Watering with a PH of 6.9 over as long period of time will not build up to be 6.7 or anything, it will stay at 6.9. However, you should be aware that your soils ph can and will flucuate, so you always gotta keep track. For example, when peat moss breaks down, it becomes very acidic, so a few months into a potting mix, your ph could start dropping from that.

Alright, let me explain PH practices a bit now. Now alot of premade soils have dolomite lime in them as a PH buffer. At about a tablespoon of lime per gallon of soil, you soil should stay in that 6.5 range. Now alot of premixed soilds have lime in them, but often its not enough. Fox Farms Happy frog soil for example has lime in it, but its ph is 5.5 out of the bag, unacceptable for weed growing. Another reason you always gotta check. 

Ok, so its good to have something in your soil to help control the ph, but thats only half the battle. If your soils PH is 6.5, your work isn't done. Watering 6.5 soil with 7.5 water will eventually bring the soils PH up past 7, so you gotta put into your soil what you want your soil to be. This means whenever you water that 6.5 soil, make sure you're watering with water PHed at 6.5, this way your PH shouldn't stray on you. Also, when adding nutrients to your water for feeding, PH the nutrient solution when it is all mixed together ready to give to your plants, then adjust the ph accordingly.

Now I know you keep stressing organic and are worried what PH up and down do to organics. First off, PH up and Down, is safe and fine to use and not a worry that its not ortganic. This being said though, General Hydroponics makes actual organic PH up and down solution, as well as a few other companies. Also, homemade remidies like lemon juice and vinegar are some good organic alternatives.

Also, I mention testing the soils ph alot. Someone already mentioned in the thread how soil probes don't work, and thats generally correct, so heres what I do instead. First, I get a few gallons of water, all spot on the PH of 6.5. Next, I satuate the soil with the water, so its just drenched, then I let it sit for about 20 minutes. When I come back I carefully add a little more water to the soil untill water starts flowing out the bottom of the container. I collect that runoff water and PH it. I personally use a 6 dollar liquid PH drop test kit and it works great. So the PH of this runoff water is your soilds PH. If the soils PH is too high or low, I use those other gallons of PHed water to flush through my soil untill my runoff reads 6.5. Once my runoff reads 6.5, I wait 20 minutes again and do a final PH test and repeat steps if necessary.

Hope this helps.


----------



## saycheese (Jan 13, 2009)

thanks so much thats very helpful answered all my complex questions.

ive been watering organic bioterra canna soil (6.4) that has peat moss with water at (6.8 - 7.0)
in theory shouldnt my runoff test show me a HIGHER ph than 6.4?

or is the acidity in the soil a result of a chemical change, that happens after the feed has soaked into the soil.

if the plant eats all the nutrients will the ph still drop?
 if you are feeding PERFECT amounts, should the medium return to the ph it was before you fed once the nutes are used and it has dried ?
would a good remedy for mild leaf tip burn be to just use plain water a few times and hope the excess fert in the soil gets used.does it stay useable, even though built up, as long as not to very high levels (causing lockouts)

MY PLANTS SEEM NICE CEPT FOR THE YELLOWING .
GAVE NITRO HIGH GUANO
NEW GROWTH DARK (ENUFF) ALBEIT SMALL. NO CLAW OR BURN
OLD GROWTH STILL CLAW, YELLOWING AND DROPPING.soon will be gone
MY BUDS ARE NOT LARGE
IM AT WEEK 5.
UNDER 400w DIGI HPS and 125w ECOLIGHT BLOOM.61000 lumens altogether roughly with little superlumen switch on hps.
FEEDING A SQUARE METER. I FEEL LIKE THE LIL BITCHES ARE LAUGHING AT ME

at least my problem aint lack of light


i had, untill now been getting high humidity at night, which i only just noticed 

(nearly 80% at first look in the morning after light has been on 30 seconds)
 it was down to about 60% at first look after installing small dehumidifier (peltier) bout a foot tall with a 600ml reserve

is 60% humidity too high at night still?

could this stunt my buds or make them skinny/small?

im praying they bulk up i really wanted to recoup AND get aircon unit for my room for the hot times. an some simple way of manually injecting a little c02 from a canister

shall i run my fan at night a couple times, maybe half hour at a time? dont want it on all the time it might drastically reduce the lifespan of my cheapo 4"


----------



## andy52 (Jan 13, 2009)

ph is the single most important aspect of growing.if you have you ph dialed in,you are in for a great grow.get it off and you ARE gonna have issues.i do not worry about the ppms,but my ph is crucial to me in dwc or soil.


----------



## Mutt (Jan 13, 2009)

> in theory shouldnt my runoff test show me a HIGHER ph than 6.4?


No you will get PH swings in the runoff. esp. organic. I just make sure my water is PH'd going in. I ussually put in like lime or wood ash in my soil to help buffer the PH swings I'll get. The plant in organics will take what it wants and needs (or should i say the microbes). but the run off in organics does swing in my experience.
mild leaf tip burn shows that your feeding it too much, or shall i say your fert is a touch too hot. (not always a sign of PH lockout) Watering with PH'd 7.0 water is always good to do throughout the grow. I ussually only feed every other grow. straight water the other times.
Your soil being quality organic soil. I stay away from peat moss myself. CocoCoir makes a better filler for me. A good chimed in soil medium shouldn't require a lot of feeding. My mix is pretty hot but i don't get any burn or yellowing of the lower leaves. Took me a while to get my mix right and everything i use is from around the yard/home except a lil FF big bloom for additives i might be missing.


----------



## saycheese (Jan 13, 2009)

see i just went out and bought the highest recommended (most expensive) organic ferts , before i had the first idea what to do with anything. figured it would 'do' itself yknow how it is for a noob

i set up my tent as soon as i understood the air exchange principles involved, and test ran it. didnt burn down. then went shoppin again.

ive never put so much cash into a hobby before so its learn or burn.
only a complete muppet would invest that deep and not make a success eventually, i am hoping to have a near perfect second grow.

thinking of uvb supplement (if it works) / co2 injection system
and a proper aircon unit with ioniser for ma room.


im guna add pearlite to the same soil (new bag of course)

would it be a bad idea to add a little more lime to the canna bio-terra?

has anyone else added more lime to a 'buffered soil' ?
im thinking if you lime it so its closer to ph7 it might take longer to fall below the sweet spot (minimum ph6 i think ) 

as well, does anyone know if an eco-light bloom(red) 125w can sustain vegging plants, as i want to take the red out my flowertent and swap it for the blue in my seedling hut , so the blue light supplements my hps 
(i heard it aids thc production) during last week of flower
but it means the only bulb i have left is 125w red bloom bulb.
it would only be on the young plants for a week
They will be probly five-six weeks old at that time.
dont care if they dont grow, i just wana know if theyll f*ck up, shed leaves and die.


----------



## saycheese (Jan 13, 2009)

ive come to the conclusion that my original problem of early yellowing was due to a lack of nitrogen during the stretching phase of the switch to 12/12

and the tips burning a touch was the bloom fert, i added this the day i switched the light regime, and so i filled my soil with nutes not needed for stretching, while it was deficient in what was required. g u a n o. in my case.


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 13, 2009)

Mutt said:
			
		

> No you will get PH swings in the runoff. esp. organic. I just make sure my water is PH'd going in. I ussually put in like lime or wood ash in my soil to help buffer the PH swings I'll get. The plant in organics will take what it wants and needs (or should i say the microbes). but the run off in organics does swing in my experience.
> mild leaf tip burn shows that your feeding it too much, or shall i say your fert is a touch too hot. (not always a sign of PH lockout) Watering with PH'd 7.0 water is always good to do throughout the grow. I ussually only feed every other grow. straight water the other times.
> Your soil being quality organic soil. I stay away from peat moss myself. CocoCoir makes a better filler for me. A good chimed in soil medium shouldn't require a lot of feeding. My mix is pretty hot but i don't get any burn or yellowing of the lower leaves. Took me a while to get my mix right and everything i use is from around the yard/home except a lil FF big bloom for additives i might be missing.


 


*I fed last night @PH 6.4 and my run off was 5.8 should I add lime to my soil or just bump up the ph on the next watering? also when I make my mixture with all my nutes the ph drops down in the PH4.0 area is that normal when you add nutes?*


----------



## blancolighter (Jan 13, 2009)

yumyumbubblegum said:
			
		

> *I fed last night @PH 6.4 and my run off was 5.8 should I add lime to my soil or just bump up the ph on the next watering? also when I make my mixture with all my nutes the ph drops down in the PH4.0 area is that normal when you add nutes?*


 
I would add some dolomite lime to a couple gallons of water and flush that solution through untill your runoff is reading something proper. Once you think you have the right PH, wait 20 mintues, then come back again and check the runoff again.

Many companies keep the PH of their nutes low as to preserve the microbal life food in the nutes. That being said the companies expect you to know they keep their product PH low and you are expected to raise it when you are ready to apply the nutes. Just bring your mixture to 6.4 before you water.


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 13, 2009)

blancolighter said:
			
		

> I would add some dolomite lime to a couple gallons of water and flush that solution through untill your runoff is reading something proper. Once you think you have the right PH, wait 20 mintues, then come back again and check the runoff again.
> 
> Many companies keep the PH of their nutes low as to preserve the microbal life food in the nutes. That being said the companies expect you to know they keep their product PH low and you are expected to raise it when you are ready to apply the nutes. Just bring your mixture to 6.4 before you water.


 
*Thanx blanco! should this be done when the soil dries out again and "what if" I added a little lime to the top of my soil and watered next time with a little higher ph such as 6.8 - 7.0? - I am wondering how flushing the soil would mess with my feeding schedule *


----------



## Mutt (Jan 13, 2009)

> I am wondering how flushing the soil would mess with my feeding schedule


just wait till it drys out then go back on track with your feeding 
All flushing does is restabalize your medium to suit MJ wich does like close to neutral. 6.8-7.0 PH always worked perfect for me.


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 13, 2009)

*Ok - now should I wait till the soil dries out before I flush?*


----------



## Mutt (Jan 13, 2009)

Go ahead and flush it if your having probs. won't mater if its wet now. just it will droop for a day or two after the flush then perk right back up


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 13, 2009)

*Thanx Mutt   off to get some lime - one last thing what is the ratio to a gallon? and my tap is pretty neutral so I am guessing flushing with 7.0 would be fine?*


----------



## blancolighter (Jan 13, 2009)

It's one tablespoon of dolomite lime to one gallon of water. You don't need to adjust the PH of this solution, when you feed it, just mix the lime and water and flush it through. 

I like to think of PHing in aveages. For example, you were watering the other day with 6.5, but your runoff was 5.8. Now your runoff ph is like an average of two things, the water's PH and the soils ph. So, this means if you were watering with 6.5, you soil must be low, like at 5.4 or so, to make the water come out at 5.8. Hopefully this help ya get the phing problem solving process a bit better.

Flsuhing your medium with dolomite lime should stabilize it at 6.5-7.0, so after that, just continue feeding and watering your plants at what you want their PH to be, for me thats a 6.5. 

Also, about using tap water... I use tap, and I PH most every gallon I pull out of the sink cause every now and then, tap waters ph like to change on ya. Gotta be on your toes for it!


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 13, 2009)

blancolighter said:
			
		

> You don't need to adjust the PH of this solution, when you feed it, just mix the lime and water and flush it through.


 
*Thanx! I did not even think before I typed :rofl: - my excuse is like always "I smoke weed"*


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 13, 2009)

*Are soils inherantly low ph wise?*


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 13, 2009)

*Everything I needed was right here :hubba:  I use Happy Frog that would explain my low ph runoff...*





			
				blancolighter said:
			
		

> Alright, I had problems understanding alot of what you're asking, so I'll just try laying out alot of what I know and hopefully it will help.
> 
> First of all, I wouldn't ask for advice from your hydro guys again if they are telling you stuff like your soils PH doesn't matter. Thats silly, your soils ph, organic or not, is probably the most important thing you can keep track of in your gardening. It sounds like you've looked at the ph charts, soyou know that you really need to keep your ph in a sweet spot to properly absorb all the nutrients it needs. If you don't pay attention to your ph, you might as well not even feed your plants.
> 
> ...


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 13, 2009)

*OK - last question on this - I feed everyother watering this next watering is just that (a watering) can I just flush at that time, 2 more days. My Lime will not be here till tomorrow anyway *


----------



## yumyumbubblegum (Jan 14, 2009)

*I got my dolmite lime today and it is real granuarly and does not break down in water   did I get the wrong stuff? can I just add some to the top of my soil?*


----------



## blancolighter (Jan 15, 2009)

Its alright, put it in the water anyways and keep shaking it up as you water. Alot of the big sediments of the lime will get left in the bottom of your watering container, but there'll still be plenty of lime in the water that goes into your soil. You really should flush it through as opposed to put it on top, cause you gotta fix that Happy Frog PH of your whole container, and flushing with lime will be the best way to change that PH.


----------

