# The truth on LEDs



## blancolighter

Well LEDs always seem to be a hot topic, and any post they're LEDs are in, people are going to have a very wide range of opinions about them. Nothing is wrong with opinions, but I thought a thread STARTING with solid LED facts could be useful (seems most other LED threads start with new guys asking about them, then the responses get a lil crazy).

This will be a personal experience post, with alot of info drawn from other members in this forum as well, so I'll tell a bit about my light. 
I use a Procyon 100 LED system, its a LED system which uses Cree LEDs for its lighting, a mix of red (40)and blue (16) LEDs. I use it to cover roughly 8 square feet of space and I veg with it 24/7. This is a 100 Watt system running on 120 volts.

Now this brings me to my first point, differentiating a quality light from the cheap ones. LEDs are much like HID in that quality in is quality out. Much like you get what you pay for in a bulb or ballast, same with LEDs. Doesn't even bother looking at a LED light if it uses LEDs at 1 watt each or less. They simply won't put out the light you need to grow, not to metion most of these leds are poor quality cheap products from China and won't last too long. Look for LEDs that use some watts up to put out light, look for an LED system that uses individual LEDs rated at least at 1.5 watts each. Also look for brand name LEDs in your grow light, such as Cree. Cree not only makes ultra bright special LEDs, but they make a chipset specifically for their LEDs which improves efficiency, brightness, and product lifetime. This is much like how purchasing a quality digital ballast for your HID lighting will improve the lumen output and bulb life. So remember, buying a LED light, look for decent wattage on individual LEDs in the light, and look for brand name LEDs (there are so many LED growlight products that are basically scams, seeing quality name brand LEDs i n a light will also let you know you have a light maker that cares about his product quality).

Now a big factor people pit LED against HID is cost savings and energy savings. A new quality LED light is gonna cost about $600, when the same complete setup for HID will cost about $400. This is assuming that the LED light is equivalent to a 400 watt HPS/MH. Now you have to replace a HPS bulb every year, and they run about 70 dollars for a decent one, so after 4 years of growing, you've already paid as much with HID as one would have had to spend on an LED light, and we haven't even figured in the energy costs saved with LED. It costs about 7 bucks a month to run 100 watts at 120 v 24/7. This means I'm paying 21 buck a month less than I would if I was using a 400 watt HID in its place, thats a good 250 a year saved. So have I completely sold you on LED yet? Yes? Well sounds like you lack information that many others dreaming of LEDs lack; LEDs have a limited operating life, they don't put out intense growing light for decades on end, like many think. After 5 years of use, even the top quality brands of LEDs decrease in brightness by 30 percent or more, and as I will go to show later in this post, a drop in brightness that amount with LEDs lighting is unacceptable. Basically, you would have to buy a new LED light system every 5 years, so at 600 buck a pop, thats gonna get pricy. In the end, after a decent period of time, the cost difference between the two is negligable and probably shouldn't be a factor in your decision. 

Well, I guess since I just mentioned why a light decrease in LEDs is unacceptable, let me explain here why. LED lighting systems use a combination of red and blue LEDs, and since they can't occupy exactly the same space, as their light falls through the mj canopy the red and blue light separate and cast shadows in different directions. This means that leave below the top canopy will be often lacking one whole section from the spectrum of light they need. Basically, light can't get past the top layer of leaves, and everything underneath suffers for it. I included some pictures of a couple mother plants of mine, in them you can see thier healthy top canopy, and then everything beneath. You can see the stunted leaf growth and dead leaves from lack of light. You can also see that the top of the blants have beautiful and health leaves. This is why LEDs can't be knocked entirely, because while they don't have good light penetration at all, they certainly can sustain healthy growth to a point. LEDs would be great for vegging small plant without developed canopies for example, or working with a scrog in which nothing but the top canopy is important. To effectively flower with LEDs though, you will need more that one LED grow light. There will be too many light gaps to fill in as the buds start to form and cast shadows to grow with just one. An example of what you would have to do to flower effectively with LEDs can be found in this grow journal http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34609. As you can see though, it took him alot of money in led lights to get enough light to flower effectively and pierce the canopy, and he was almost using the same amount of power as one would of with HID because he had to use multiple LED lamps.


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## blancolighter

Well, so I've talked about the cons of LEDs a bit, let's talk about the pros. I have included a pic of my LED vegging setup, as you can see, nice and simple. I don't have to have any fancy duct cooling sytem or bulky reflector to deal with. So those are two big things for some people, if you can't vent and cool a HID light, but are growing in a small space that gets hot fast, LEDs might be the answer. The size, as you can see, would allow for it to be mounted, moved, dealt with, whatever, in many different ways than a HID with reflector could be. Also as you can see in the pic, I hang dry my harvested weed right by my light. I don't have the room to hang dry anywhere else in the house, as that room is the only one with a carbon filter. Since no UV rays come from the light and very little heat, its perfectly safe to hang dry your weed right next to your light, a huge space saving bonus in my book. Also, light doesn't leak out everywhere with LED light, managing bleeding light out of your closet has never been easier. Also, because of the low heat, you can drop your LEDs right on top of your plants without burning them. The only thing about that is I've noticed LEDs like to be mounted a bit higher up for dispersal of its light, so unless you just have a few plants under it, you probably won't want to drop it that low or you'll right start suffering some light falloff. 



Bottom line, I will use this till I see that 30 percent light output decrease, then its gone. Hopefully by then I'll be growing in a basement rather than a closet, and I will replace it with HID. Right now LEDs are perfect for me cause I'm growing in a closet, but when I have the space to deal with HID, I will.


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## Motor City Madman

Nice grow op. Looks like the LEDs are working for ya. Thanks for the great info.

MCM


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## blancolighter

Also, I know many people looks at LEDs and wonder about lumens and brightness. Now Leds put out 2 specific wavelengths of light, just two colors (red and blue at very specific wavelenghths), not the whole spectrum of light like HID lighting does. These specific wavelengths in the LED lights might be just as strong as the same wavelengths being put out by the HID lighting, but the HID light is also putting out a ridiculous amount of other wavelengths of light. Lumen measures the sum of ALL the light being put out, so lumens can't accurately measure and compare the growing power of LEDs to HID, as LEDs would only be measured for 2 wavelengths of its light against HIDs 1000's of wavelengths. This would make any measure of LED light in lumens appear to be very small, when in reality it could be putting out just as much of the red and blue light a plant needs to grow as a HID light, which measers very high in lumens because of all its non useful wavelengths being measured as well.


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## blancolighter

I also like to check out this site for LED light info: hxxp://www.greenpinelane.com/ . The site is put on by a tomato grower who drops the cash on all the big name brand LED systems and gives very thorough equipment tests and grow journals on them. Lots of quality information and time have gone into this site and its definately a valuable resource because of it. Just remember, those are tomotoes there, so the canopy problem and maybe others I've had with weed aren't gonna be to prevelant with tomatos, just something to think about...


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## papabeach1

hey bic ligther....you remind me of my brother..he showed me eveything in detals.. he got high output leds..at good prices.. he made some to run with lithum battery.. it works nicely..  best thing about it..leo can't use FLIR system to detect high watt lights...he was telling me he only just want to grow clones and that is his main focus..   maybe we can get one thread cracking up to start teach people how to build a nice fancy led grow lights hmm?


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## Hick

> Well LEDs always seem to be a hot topic, and any post they're LEDs are in, people are going to have a very wide range of opinions about them. Nothing is wrong with opinions, but I thought a thread STARTING with solid LED facts could be useful (seems most other LED threads start with new guys asking about them, then the responses get a lil crazy).


.. thanks blanco'.. And with that, I would request that negative "opinions" and comments, remain limited and _civil_.. if not totally omitted. 
The LED industry is advancing by leaps and bounds. We all must recognize that it is at least a feasable and reasonable option in the "near" future, if not now.


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## NorCalHal

Well put together post blanco. 

I trust your skillz, so I will be watching this one. I believe you will give us an honest opinon on how effective these really are.


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## blancolighter

Thanks guys, I just thought there should be a factual thread about LEDs goin. Anyone should be able to post LED info here, but all I ask is for people to back up what they post with solid info and/or reasoning so others can understand the thought behind whats happening and hopefully this will prevent flaming from going down. (thanks for addressing that already Hick)

I'll continue to post LED info I learn through my growing and any research I do, but others should definately post. Shoot, I already missed a huge point that papabeach brought up:

leo can't use FLIR system to detect LED lights. This could be huge for you if you livein a heavily LEO patrolled area, or are just a little too paranoid to be comfortable. (for those of you who don't know, FLIR makes infared and thermal imaging systems for law enforcement)


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## BBFan

Thank you Blanco- Excellent post.
To clarify my understanding, as it stands today you think that LED's are a viable source for lighting where heat may be an issue, but given the space and necessary venting, your opinion is still that HID is better based on current technology available?
Thanks again- good post.


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## blancolighter

Yea, BB those are my feelings, almost dead on. Now if good LEDs dropped in price enough for me to use a few at once, I might do that as well, but I really don't see that happening to a point where it would be feasible for me anytime soon. Also, I'm not hating my LED light I have right now, I think it's great, just when I have the space, HID will be even better. 

Another thing struck me as I was writing this reply. If you ever lose power or accidently turn off your light, you can turn it right back on without that waiting period HID needs. A small point, but a point none the less.

For all of you who want to see a HID and LED cost comparison in detail side by side, check this out: *hxxp://www.growrevolution.com/calculator.php* 

It gives a great breakdown of the costs of each system and compares them side by size. It uses only their own LEDs to compare to, so its got limitations, but its a neat little tool. (note it doesn't take into account the LED 30 percent light loss after 5 years and how people might want to replace their unit afterwards, which is a huuuge price diff.)

Another interesting LED point, you don't have to water as much. I'm talking a day or two more between waterings than if you were using HPS.

Now I'm not sure as to the reason behind this, whether the heat from HPS causes water to evaporate out of pots faster than with LEDs, or if the plants consume more water to stay cool, or if the plants consume more water and grow more under HPS, I just don't know. So because I don't know what causes it, I can't really list less water consumption as a pro or con. Personally I feel that the water just evaporates quicker with HPS, but I can't prove that, so what you make of this one is up to you, but I think its a good thing.


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## 7thG

I want to use leds.....the ufo to be specific. Im just worried because it doesnt seem like leds produce buds like hid. I saw a side by side grow and the ufo didnt even compare to the hid as far as actual buds produced. But, i must admit, the test didnt seem fair. They kept the ufo like 2 ft above and then let the plant grow outta control. It just seemed like a rigged test......but the hid did outperform.


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## pcduck

This is the most informative thread on leds that I have read.

It is a welcome sight to be able to read a "led" thread without the bickering.

One is unable to learn if the facts are never allowed to be revealed and without being able to learn, one will never change their minds. 

Keep up the good work *blancolighter* :aok:


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## BuddyLuv

I am sure by the time my kid grows his first plant there will only be LEDs.


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## maineharvest

I wonder what the difference in yield is between the hps and the leds?  

Great info Blanco but after reading this thread I still wouldnt trade in my hps for an led.   How do cfls compare to the leds as far as temps, light penitration, and yield?  I know there are a few pros to using them but nothing significant that would make me go out and spend $600.   

The pictures you showed have absolutely no canopy penitration, They looked naked from the waste down.  I just cant picture those lights producing any amount of bud.   It seems like you would have to purchase $1200 worth of leds to get a decent yield.

Sorry, Im just skeptical thats all.


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## blancolighter

Well I'll be buying a house this summer and hopefully I can do some straight up side by side testing. I have a t5 flouro setup (2 feet long and 4 tubes wide) that I've only been using for clones, but I've been hearing alot about t5s, so I think I might give them a go with my regular plants as well. 

Now you said something about cfls maineharvest, I realize where the real comparisons should be made is cfls/t5s versus LEDs. I'll be obesrving with this in mind for the future...


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## maineharvest

Yeah I agree, its hard to compare an hps with an led.  I think a cfl-led grow comparison needs to be done.  

My guess would be that cfls out perform the leds as far as yield and they cost about a quarter of what an led does.   

Like you Blanco, Im waiting on a house too.  I cant wait to have all that extra space to play with and experiment with.


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## JBonez

yo blanco, try and perform the experiment with clones from the same plant, that way, growth patterns would be ralatively the same, just the difference in lumen output, but it would be interesting to see the difference in dry weight, since that is what this experiment should be about.

Thanks for this thread, i say a led grow that yielded about 6oz from like 6 plants or something, then again, factual harvest weight may have been embellished, it is the interwebz afterall.


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## winstonwolf

I grow in a closet, so heat buidup is a big, big issue. Currently, I've got a 400 Watt switchable light. I'm reluctant to add another HID light but am thinking about adding a UFO LED to the setup to increase the amount of light without increasing the amount of heat. Does that make sense?


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## blancolighter

It makes sense, but do some research man, there are worse ways to spend your money on LEDs, but there's also far better ways. The Ufo was the first as a home LED grow light, so its kinda a household name, but many other lights have been inspired by it and surpassed it in quality, so don't buy a UFO just cause you've heard of it. Do your research cause theres much better stuff out there.


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## Growdude

winstonwolf said:
			
		

> I grow in a closet, so heat buidup is a big, big issue. Currently, I've got a 400 Watt switchable light. I'm reluctant to add another HID light but am thinking about adding a UFO LED to the setup to increase the amount of light without increasing the amount of heat. Does that make sense?



I dont think its a good idea, The UFO is just going to block the HPS.
And side lighting just isnt as effective. For the cost use some CFL's for side lighting.

For the money I would spend it on a way to cool your closet, better fans, portable chiller ect.


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## Lemmongrass

hey i just ran across this randomly: hxxp://forum.grasscity.com/general-indoor-growing/341654-flowering-ufo-5wks.html

not trashin his work, but for 5wk flowering that sucks. baby veg dun look bad tho.


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## blancolighter

Great link man, really lets people know what to expect when flowering with UFOs. Looks liek this guy did all the nutes and everything right, its a beautiful looking plant, but you can see the lower leaves cant hold their shape and ther lower buds are way small from lack of canopy penetration. Those are some good pics to study the effects of LEDs for sure.


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## homebrew420

that is very informative, thank you for your contributions.  THat helps me alot.  Almost went out to spend the money on an LED system, but got a free 600w instead.


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## Wiseguy_Chef

so u can't buy replacement bulbs for a say UFO system??? u gotta get a whole nother sett up?


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## Lemmongrass

lol yea. wouldn't be worth the time soldering.


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## mendo local

LED's have been on the market for years. If they were the answer we would all know about it. Im not bashing but no matter how much lipstick you put on Martha Stewart shes not gonna be Pamela Anderson.


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## houseoftreasure

Mendo... this just made me chuckle


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## marcnh

mendo local said:
			
		

> LED's have been on the market for years. If they were the answer we would all know about it. Im not bashing but no matter how much lipstick you put on Martha Stewart shes not gonna be Pamela Anderson.



i knooooww...if they worked great then we all would have seen results by now.


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## blancolighter

mendo local said:
			
		

> LED's have been on the market for years. If they were the answer we would all know about it. Im not bashing but no matter how much lipstick you put on Martha Stewart shes not gonna be Pamela Anderson.


 
Martha is about 20 times hotter than Pam in my book, plus much more of a bad girl, I mean come on, who's done the prison time? And better yet, who's gonna cook me a nice meal? All Pam's gonna do is dig into my wallet to get a facelift correction surgeory.

Ha this is in no way a metaphor for LEDs, I just really do think Martha's hotter.


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## Hick

> I just really do think Martha's hotter.


try more ventilation.....:confused2:...


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## blancolighter

:rofl:


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## JBonez

blancolighter said:
			
		

> :rofl:



x2


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## LassChance

OOOPS!
Im sorry I asked about the UFO...I hadnt FOUND this most informative post when I asked my LED question.  I apologise--I shoulda been more thorough in my perusal of the entire body of "LIGHT" posts.
This was MOST helpful.  
Again, I apologise for asking. My bad.

LassChance


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## blancolighter

Dude, don't apologize for asking, questions are your best friend when growing MJ


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## la9

My problem with the current LED grow lights is they all use low wattage LED's and then claim to grow as well as a 400 or 600 watt HPS. They are no way close to the lumen out of an HPS light especially using 1/2 watt LED's. If you want to use LED's then you should at least be using the highest wattage LED's available to give you a chance at getting the brightness you would need. Here is a link with more information than you could imagine on LED setup, this guy built a light with high wattage LED's and did a good job with it, along with all the detail on what was used and the cost, along with plenty of pics. So if you want to grow with LED's you should consider building something similiar and quit spending money on the low wattage stuff. That is my opinion.

hXXp://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273[/URL]


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## la9

Still wondering if anyone has tried out the new LED lights that replace the 4 foot flourescent bulbs, If everyone is spending so much money on these UFO's I can't see why someone hasn't spent $80 for a 4 foot led bulb.


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## blancolighter

I haven't seen any of those with a good set of LEDs in em, but its been a bit since I looked. Got a link to check out? my t5 ballast just went out, so if it looks decent I might give er a shot...


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## erwinsweeney

I am using a California Nurseries 120 watt LED light.  It incorporates 100-1.05 watt BridgeLux LED's.  I am growing in soil inside of a 6X4X2' grow tent.  The interior of the tent is made of reflective material.  The plants are AK-48's and are about a month old.  I too had given much thought to the light penetration issue.  What I have done is to remove a majority of the large fan leaves, in order to allow more light to reach the lower canopy.  As you can see in the pictures, I have not yet experienced the lower foliage problems that Blanco has experienced.  I am not yet able to report on the end result, as this will be my first grow with this setup.  In my opinion, everything has gone just fine so far, and the plants look great for being a month old and started from seed.  This is a great thread, and I hope others will share their experience with this type of method.  I will post more pictures as growth continues, so others can see the results.


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## ivor

great thread dude. just 2 inform u my m8 grew with led and i grew with white/warm white fluorescents and with same plants and started same time and mine produced twice as much yeild.we grew in different soil mixes mine 1/2 cow s**t 1/2 soil with worm castings at top and m8 grew from bio mix only maybe this made slight diff also???:watchplant:


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## erwinsweeney

I am using a California Nurseries 120 watt LED light. It incorporates 100-1.05 watt BridgeLux LED's. I am growing in soil inside of a 6X4X2' grow tent. The interior of the tent is made of reflective material. The plants are AK-48's and are about a month old. I too had given much thought to the light penetration issue. What I have done is to remove a majority of the large fan leaves, in order to allow more light to reach the lower canopy. As you can see in the pictures, I have not yet experienced the lower foliage problems that Blanco has experienced. I am not yet able to report on the end result, as this will be my first grow with this setup. In my opinion, everything has gone just fine so far, and the plants look great for being a month old and started from seed. This is a great thread, and I hope others will share their experience with this type of method. I will post more pictures as growth continues, so others can see the results.


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## blancolighter

Hey erwin, plants are lookin nice there, I'll definately be keeping an eye on your grow, you should get a grow journal up and goin. It's always interesting to see how LED grows go. Looks like the light you got is pretty quality, and at a manageable price, if it turns out to work decently for me I might have to pick one up for the price. I'm curious, hows the lightspread on it?


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## erwinsweeney

Hey Blanco. If by spread you mean red to blue ratio, there are 88 red and 24 blues.  It seems to be one of the better LED's.  So far it's going well.  I will take your advice and start a journal.


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## zipflip

sod does anyone even have a lumen output rating on any these led grow lites they sell?
  i posted this before somewhere else but heres a video of a make your own led grow light that consists of 100 "3 WATT luxeon powwer led's.
*hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-R5xi0n2nc*
   now, i looked up these 3watt luxeon power leds and heres wat i found on them as far as lumens. and even ratings for the 1 an 1.5 watts ones etc etc.  *hxxp://www.plasmaled.com/3w_high_power_led.htm*  thats insane. cuz i mean the dude in the video used 100 of these 3watt lux leds and at the rate of cost there that over a grand$ and ya lumen output on a panel of 100 3 Watt leds is only gonna be  under 20'000 give or take still. 
  unless im seein this wrong it dont seem even near worth it. like cfl's are king kong compared to led's in my eyes with this knowledge regardless of seein results on any other grow even.
  granted i think it'd work if you clustered like 100 on one panel and basicall screw mylar or poly just line ya grow room or bcab wit panels. but the ya  gotta have all tat bread to spend on em an wat not lol.


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## JBonez

results for weed grown under led's are not here yet. I believe in the VERY near future, developments in technology will give the same results as hid lighting, and we will know when it does because everyone is waiting for an affordable way to use light in better spectrum's with significantly lower temperatures.


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## zipflip

oh i totally agree.  i see the whole picture as led's bein way too expensive is bout the main deterrent.  the amount you'd need to actually make equivalent lumen output as an hps would be alot the way im seein it.


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## The Hemp Goddess

erwinsweeney said:
			
		

> I too had given much thought to the light penetration issue. What I have done is to remove a majority of the large fan leaves, in order to allow more light to reach the lower canopy.



Do not cut off the fan leaves.  This is detrimental to the plant and does not help the "penetration" problem.  The fan leaves are the little solar factories that turn light and nutrients into THC. Removing them inhibits the plants ability to produce THC.   

Penetration is really not the correct word to use, although we use it all the time.  No light is actually capable of "penetrating" through solid foliage.  What we are really talking about is the loss of intensity over distance.  The light from LEDs (or any other type of light, for that matter) loses lumens over distance and is only effective for x number of inches from the bulbs--the number of inches is different for different types of lighting.  So removing fan leaves that are in the light to expose bud below that is receiving very few lumens is actually counterproductive.  Your little girl needs all her fan leaves.


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## TokeWithHope

wow thanks blancolighter. this is a great write up! if i wouldnt have already purchased cfls and my 600w HID setup i probly would of given it a shot. but its all very interesting and i think at some point LEDS are gonna be in alot more grows


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## Head_Down_Under

Thanks folks for an intelligent, informed debate about LEDs, I've been reading it carefully and finding it useful. It makes such a great change from endless bickering about who does/doesn't like LED which threads like this can so often succumb to.
Today I got my first UFO from China: 90w as 10 blue 460nm and 80 red 660nm, in a nifty well made box with fans inside for LED cooling. Frustratingly my old seeds of unknown origin havn't germinated so I have no use for it until I can get more seed. However its bright - very bright. I've constructed a wardrobe area 0.5m x 0.45m x 1.5m with carbon filter. The lighting besides the UFO also has 2 x 55w cfl. All lights switched on is very bright. Running like this for an hour without the extractor fan only raised the internal temperature from low 20s to high 20s (Celcius).
Once I'm up and running with new seeds I shall report back how it all goes
Cheers


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## erwinsweeney

Get some beans for that UFO to beam at Down Under!  I have a grow journal goin with some AK-48's growin in a tent.  They were vegged entirely with LED.  Last saturday i switched to flowering, and changed to a 250 watt CFL bulb.  I believe I will add the LED back to the equation however and run both the CFL and LED. Check it out.
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=482037#post482037




http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=482037#post482037


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## erwinsweeney

Here are a couple of pics of my cureent AK-48 LED tent grow.  These were vegged with the LED only.  At start of flowering I added the 2700K 250 watt CFL bulb.  Im real happy with results so far.  We will see how i ends up when all is said and done.


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## Head_Down_Under

wow those pics are great erwin you've got me keen to start (well keener anyway)


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## erwinsweeney

Head_Down_Under said:
			
		

> wow those pics are great erwin you've got me keen to start (well keener anyway)


 
I'm excited to see what you get going there Down Under.  Let me know if you start a grow journal so that I can subscribe.  Good luck to you.


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## presser2001

i am a lead electrician. & LED lights are still evolving. They are not as good as they will be in 10 years. I predict that they will be the only light used for garden use eventually, unfortunatly we will have to wait 4 that progression. With that said I am all about LED lights, but damn are they expensive.


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## RCCIZMe

martha is totaly a babe

Great thread


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## JustAnotherAntMarching

great thread Blanco.... Im a big fan of LEDs and currently using them in my first real grow.... anyone interested in taking a looking at these ladies grown with nothing but LEDs check my grow journal.... 

5 StrainFULL LED grow : 

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=43865


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## stevetosh

Any one have an update on LEDs, it now Jan 2010. Have things improved or are we still going to have to use HPS??


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## moaky

leds can't be measured by lumens like hid systems. blanco already stated this.
it does seem that the leds are getting better. i've been researching many brands and threads and how people are using them.  after this harvest i plan on trying the illuminator 350 watt led by prosource worldwide. heres a link that really explaings leds as blanco did in the begging of the thread. but it does seem the technology has advandced with there new 5band light
hXXp://www.prosourceworldwide.com/category_s/42.htm
at least they make it seem like the technology has gotten alot better.
THE HEMP GODDESS stated on this thread
 "Do not cut off the fan leaves. This is detrimental to the plant and does not help the "penetration" problem. The fan leaves are the little solar factories that turn light and nutrients into THC. Removing them inhibits the plants ability to produce THC. 

Penetration is really not the correct word to use, although we use it all the time. No light is actually capable of "penetrating" through solid foliage. What we are really talking about is the loss of intensity over distance. The light from LEDs (or any other type of light, for that matter) loses lumens over distance and is only effective for x number of inches from the bulbs--the number of inches is different for different types of lighting. So removing fan leaves that are in the light to expose bud below that is receiving very few lumens is actually counterproductive. Your little girl needs all her fan leaves."

So it seems that she knows what shes talking about and was saying that not only do the lumes lose stregnth but hid systems are so strong coming out they bounce all around the plant reaching the lower branches. maybe the 350 LEDS do put out as much light but it can only be a strong light for so long.  maybe a short veg cycle like 2-4 weeks than the leds would prove effecient.  there really is to much to know about these lights and we just need to experment tell someone gets it right.  ill make sure in a couple months when i get mine to start a grow journal.  
thanks again blanco for getting this info out.


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## DonJones

Does any one remember who it was that was building his own panels and planning a double decker grow operation?

If so will you please guide me to his thread.  He seemed to know a lot about LEDs and to be going about testing them in a really objective manner.

Thanks.

Great smoking.


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## ishnish

found this interesting-- 90w LED UFO Comparison 400w HPS-

hXXp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fh9oGroryoc&NR=1

looks like a legit test...


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## ozzydiodude

Hey *Don* StoneyBud was who was starting the double decker grow and for some reason he is no longer around. And damn it I miss the old fart.


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## ToothDaClown

ozzydiodude,

Thanks

DOES ANYONE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO STONEY BUD OR WHERE HE CAN BE REACHED?  If you don't want to post the info, please PM it to me.

I miss him too.  I hope he is alright and just had issues with the forum rather than having had a tragedy or something like that.

Great smoking.


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## ledtester

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> hey bic ligther....you remind me of my brother..he showed me eveything in detals.. he got high output leds..at good prices.. he made some to run with lithum battery.. it works nicely.. best thing about it..leo can't use FLIR system to detect high watt lights...he was telling me he only just want to grow clones and that is his main focus.. maybe we can get one thread cracking up to start teach people how to build a nice fancy led grow lights hmm?


 
Another myth about LED's ...that they help with FLIR! FLIR cameras CAN"T see through ****. They pick up heat being vented out of your house. Since it takes as many watts of LED's as HPS to produce the same bud, the LED's are going to produce approx. the same heat to vent.


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## ledtester

blancolighter said:
			
		

> Thanks guys, I just thought there should be a factual thread about LEDs goin. Anyone should be able to post LED info here, but all I ask is for people to back up what they post with solid info and/or reasoning so others can understand the thought behind whats happening and hopefully this will prevent flaming from going down. (thanks for addressing that already Hick)
> 
> I'll continue to post LED info I learn through my growing and any research I do, but others should definately post. Shoot, I already missed a huge point that papabeach brought up:
> 
> leo can't use FLIR system to detect LED lights. This could be huge for you if you livein a heavily LEO patrolled area, or are just a little too paranoid to be comfortable. (for those of you who don't know, FLIR makes infared and thermal imaging systems for law enforcement)


Wrong blanco...they will detect them if the camera is in the room just like all the other pictures and scenes on TV since the lights do creat heat...the problem is the cameras have a hard time seeing through fog (just check out any FLIR manuf. claims) and won't even see through glass or anything. Your problem is venting heat...your solution is to spread it around if your creating that much.


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## ledtester

Lemmongrass said:
			
		

> hey i just ran across this randomly: hxxp://forum.grasscity.com/general-indoor-growing/341654-flowering-ufo-5wks.html
> 
> not trashin his work, but for 5wk flowering that sucks. baby veg dun look bad tho.


 
Man if you guys are happy with that I can show you some fluro grow that would put those buds to shame...looks like I need more posts...LOL


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## Growdude

ledtester said:
			
		

> Man if you guys are happy with that I can show you some fluro grow that would put those buds to shame...looks like I need more posts...LOL


 
Desnt sound like he's happy.


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