# Feminised.



## TheStickyIcky (Jul 19, 2007)

I don't know if it is this simple or not. But, from what I have read feminised seeds are made from stressing a female out to the of becoming a hermie and collecting the pollen from that and then pollenating another female. Is that right? If thats the case, what is the best way to stress the female out to this point?


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## Draston (Jul 19, 2007)

Thats basically what I read as well. Ask a few members how to do it... Shuggy should know lol. Check his grow journal and mimmic it lol, JP man, I couldn't resist.


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## Hick (Jul 19, 2007)

"stressing" isn't the proper method gor reversing sex to produce femminised seeds. A stressed plant that hermies "is contaminated" with the hermi genetics. IMHO...only plants that have been stressed and _did not_ hermie, should be used for producing hermies.. Both the donor and the recieving plant should be "true females" resistant to hermophradism. 
I am a firm believer that "hermies procreate hermies"...hermi genetics are a huge detriment to mj's genetic pool. 
  Sex reversal can then be accomplished with chemicals, silver sulfate and giberillic(sp) acid are the two most common.


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## TheStickyIcky (Jul 19, 2007)

Apparently I misread or I was misinformed.


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## gottagrow_420 (Jul 19, 2007)

Did a little research and found out you dont want a hermaphrodite plant to make seeds what you want is called a *polyploid* which means is has more than the usual two sets of chromosomes. This type of hermaphrodites may have xxy (triploid) or xxyy or xxxy(tetraploid)sex chromosomes. This type of plant does not ocurr in nature but breeders have been successful with ALKALOID COLCHICINE in making these plants. Sorry I couldnt find a guide to do this..hope this gets you started. *Colchicine *is a comercially used chemical I hear is very good for this and other uses here is a link to a different thread with this same subject http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13606

Google *Colchicine* if your in dout it can be very usefull.


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## bombbudpuffa (Jul 19, 2007)

> breeders have been successful with ALKALOID COLCHICINE


You'd need *thousands* of seeds to make polyploids this way. Colchicine kills most of the seeds that are treated with it and is very, highly poisonous. I would not recommend using this stuff. Go with the silver or ga.


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## gottagrow_420 (Jul 19, 2007)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> You'd need *thousands* of seeds to make polyploids this way. Colchicine kills most of the seeds that are treated with it and is very, highly poisonous. I would not recommend using this stuff. Go with the silver or ga.


 
I have never heard of this:yeahthat:  and have heard good things about this for Botanical use. I copied this from Wkiipedia :
*[edit] Botanical use*

Since chromosome segregation is driven by microtubules, colchicine is also used for inducing polyploidy in plant cells during cellular division by inhibiting chromosome segregation during meiosis; half the resulting gametes therefore contain no chromosomes, while the other half contain double the usual number of chromosomes (_i.e._, diploid instead of haploid as gametes usually are), and lead to embryos with double the usual number of chromosomes (_i.e._ tetraploid instead of diploid). While this would be fatal in animal cells, *in plant cells it is not only usually well tolerated, but in fact frequently results in plants which are larger, hardier, faster growing, and in general more desirable than the normally diploid parents; for this reason, this type of genetic manipulation is frequently used in breeding plants commercially. In addition, when such a tetraploid plant is crossed with a diploid plant, the **triploid** offspring will be sterile (which may be commercially useful in itself by requiring growers to buy seed from the supplier) but can often be induced to create a "seedless" fruit if pollinated (usually the triploid will also not produce pollen, therefore a diploid parent is needed to provide the pollen). This is the method used to create seedless **watermelons**, for instance.* On the other hand, colchicine's ability to induce polyploidy can be exploited to render infertile hybrids fertile, as is done when breeding triticale from wheat and rye. Wheat is typically tetraploid and rye diploid, with the triploid hybrid infertile. Treatment with colchicine of triploid triticale gives fertile hexaploid triticale.


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## bombbudpuffa (Jul 19, 2007)

From MJ Botany-"Polyploidy has not been shown to occur naturally in cannabis; however, it may be induced artificially with colchicine treatments. *Colchicine is a poisonous compound* extracted from the roots of certain colchicum species; it inhibits chromosome segregation to daughter cells and cell wall formation, resulting in larger than average daughter cells with multiple chromosome sets." "*Colchicine is nearly always lethal to cannabis seeds, and in treatment there is a very fine line between polyploidy and death.* In other words, if 100 viable seeds are treated with colchicine and 40 of them germinate it is unlikely thet the treatment induced polyploidy in any of the survivors. On the other hand, if 1000 viable seeds give rise to 3 seedlings, the chances are better that they are polyploid since the treatment killed all of the seeds but those three."


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## gottagrow_420 (Jul 19, 2007)

Try this link
It gives the dosages and tells the mortality rate between 0 and 44% is what I got from scanning depending on dosage and exposure time.
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0103-84782000000100017&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en


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## gottagrow_420 (Jul 19, 2007)

Try this link
It gives the dosages and tells the mortality rate between 0 and 44% is what I got from scanning depending on dosage and exposure time.


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## gottagrow_420 (Jul 19, 2007)

Try this lind is talks about the dosages and tells the motrality rate it doesent to seem to be what you were saying, they were doing sets of nine, and the largest mortality rate was 4 out of the 9.

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0103-84782000000100017&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

I dont want an arguement but I do like seeing correct info get out to people.


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## bombbudpuffa (Jul 19, 2007)

> I dont want an arguement but I do like seeing correct info get out to people.


What false info have I given? The name of the thread is Feminised not polyploidy. A polyploid has nothing to do with fem seeds. A triploid, for example, is a polyploid. A polyploid is a plant that has an extra chromosome so it has an extra leaf/calyx or two. Like, instead of your regular 2 leaves that come out of a seedling, a triploid will have 3. Btw, those links are for experiments on plants other than cannabis. Probably why the results differ.


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## Mutt (Jul 19, 2007)

Soma has a way of feminized seeds by manipulating the photoperiod on high times. Robert Clarke has the gibberlic (sp) Acid method. 

I personally don't beleive in altering the genetics of the plant myself. A male is just as valuable as a female...esp. a late flowering male. They are gold to me.

I stand by one tried and true method. plant 10 seeds from a pack. Get one or two very healthy females and clone the hell outa her.

BTW Bombbudpuffa is correct.



			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> *Polyploidy* is the condition of some biological cells and organisms manifested by the presence of more than two homologous sets of chromosomes. *Polyploid* types are termed according to the number of chromosome sets in the nucleus: *triploid* (three sets; 3x), *tetraploid* (four sets; 4x), *pentaploid* (five sets; 5x), *hexaploid* (six sets; 6x) and so on.


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## TheStickyIcky (Jul 19, 2007)

Thanks for all the info, guys.

Mutt, I agree to an extent. But, with outdoor growing its almost impossible to clone effectively. I would have to bring it back home with me which involves a lot of risk, not to mention I could only carry a couple.


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## gottagrow_420 (Jul 20, 2007)

bombbudpuffa my honest apology. Im glad you spoke up really, I broke out my old growers book and when I read the chapter I realized I was mistaken qiute badly on this I assumed polyploid was refering to the sex chromosomes but I see not that it was not refering to changing the sex of the plant, though it is located next to the chapter on Breeding MJ. Sorry to TheStickyIcky also for kidnapping your post with :**:. 

I do have the book open and since I do I will tell you what it says about producing female seeds: 
"       To produce female seeds, the plants are fertilized with pollen from male flowers that appers on a basically female plant. Such flowers appear on intersexes, reversed females, and hermaphrodites. Female plants have an XX complement of sex chromosomes; therefore, the pollen from male flowers that form on female plants can only carry an X chromosome. All seeds produced from flowers fertilized with this "female" pollen will thus have an XX pair of chromosomes, which is the female genotype".............
    It also sites severe pruning such as a harvest but leaving as many leaves as possible then cutting light cycle back to 8 hours of light forcing the plant to create male flowers in an effort to procreate in what it sees as the end of the season with such little light. It also goes on to say feminized seeds can be made from a natural hermie but it will likley inherit the gene of hermie.
Hope this helps more than my first post.


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## TheStickyIcky (Jul 20, 2007)

No problem man. I like to read.


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## Hick (Jul 20, 2007)

*"Breeding with hermis..procreates hermis"*
sticky'...you ever hear of or attempt cloning "on the plant"??
there are a couple of methods that work great.
One is to wrap a stem right wherre you want to grow roots, with cheescloth filled with medium. Moisten it when you water. When roots show, cut it off 'n plant it.
Another is called "air layering"...tie/stake a lower branch down, makeing sure that an inch or so is buried beneath the surface.  In a cpl of weeks, you will have another plant. Cut it off between the meristem and the buried section, transplant her.


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## TheStickyIcky (Jul 20, 2007)

Yeah, hick. I have cloned a few plants. Probably 6 or 7. Not a whole lot. But, I have done it. I was never really pleased with the results of clones outdoors. They don't get big enough or yield enough for my tastes. In my state your charge is by how many plants that you have. So, I would rather have 4 six footers than 8 three footers.

The reason I wanted to do this is I was going to start some White Widow and Purple Widow indoors and then try to produce feminised seeds which I could then plant outdoors. Guess I'll have to go another route.


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## Hick (Jul 20, 2007)

..in most cases...my clones produce as much or more than the same strain from seed. 
Clones with sufficient vegging time and proper care, grow just as much bud as plants from seed, they're 'always' females, no _accidental_ pollinations. 
  I grow a few from seed every season, usually 1-2 different strains, just for the variety. But my predominate crop is/has been, clones for the past several years.


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## TheStickyIcky (Jul 20, 2007)

You have a better touch than me, Hick. 

More problems. I don't have an extensive grow op indoors. I don't have room or effecient lighting to have a couple mother plants and still get 10 or 15 clones. I was going to try and do WW now and PW a little later, so I get seeds from both strains before next outdoor season. 

Another option is growing a plant to decent sized outdoors and then cloning it. Cloning outdoors in the middle of the summer is pretty hard to do in my experience around here. It is pretty hot and dry. I really don't want to be traveling from an outdoor location back to my house with 10 or 15 clones either.

Also, I was part of an operation this year is where my buddy took 29 clones off of a mother plant indoors and then rooted them and then we took them outdoors and planted them. They started budding immediately. The reveged and the old bud is dying off and the are growing new shoots out of the bud sites, but they aren't very big. About waist high. He is a superior grower than me and has taught me most that I know, but my plants are twice the size of his. Everytime I have tried to take indoor clones outdoor I guess since they are already sexually mature and because of the light change they almost immediately start budding.

So what exactly do you do? Do you just take clones indoors and root them and then veg and flower them indoor?


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## TheStickyIcky (Jul 20, 2007)

Also, I agree with you completely about the upsides. You sure can't beat uniformed guaranteed females. If only I could get it down on how to successfully put them outdoor and get them to grow 6-7 feet tall. Maybe, I'll try putting them in like mid-april or something..


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## gottagrow_420 (Jul 20, 2007)

Hick said:
			
		

> *"Breeding with hermis..procreates hermis"*
> sticky'...you ever hear of or attempt cloning "on the plant"??
> there are a couple of methods that work great.
> One is to wrap a stem right wherre you want to grow roots, with cheescloth filled with medium. Moisten it when you water. When roots show, cut it off 'n plant it.
> Another is called "air layering"...tie/stake a lower branch down, makeing sure that an inch or so is buried beneath the surface. In a cpl of weeks, you will have another plant. Cut it off between the meristem and the buried section, transplant her.


 
If breeding with hermies procreates hermies then how do you get a feminized seed????


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## Mutt (Jul 20, 2007)

gottagrow_420 said:
			
		

> If breeding with hermies procreates hermies then how do you get a feminized seed????



Hormone treatment
http://www.geocities.com/hempgenes/botany3a.htm
extended flower period
http://www.hightimes.com/ht/grow/content.php?bid=151&aid=2


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## bombbudpuffa (Jul 20, 2007)

> bombbudpuffa my honest apology.


Hey man it's not needed. You were just trying to help.





> If breeding with hermies procreates hermies then how do you get a feminized seed????


I think what he means is by breeding with hermies you're introducing hermie genes to the pool. Use ga, silver or unstable lighting(12 on, 5 off, 8 on, 10 off, etc.) to hermie a female and sex a totally different female, not a clone, with the hermie pollen and you get feminised seeds.


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## TheStickyIcky (Jul 20, 2007)

Thanks for the resources, mutt. The second link is pretty much what I was describing in my first post and I assumed by the posts in this thread that it couldn't be done that way. The light manipulation method sounds easy enough.I 
ve never let a plant flower 2 weeks longer than usual, so I can't verify that the females will produce male pods. But, I'm sure this guy knows what he is talking about and I will take his word for it. I think I'm going to have to try it. 

Members:
Have you ever made feminised seeds before? What were the results?


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## Mutt (Jul 20, 2007)

Many strains will hermie as a "survival" method when not pollenated to ensure procreation. Some sativas won't even take as long as the full flower period.

I also thought Soma's method was a light manipulation method, but I refered the wrong post. but @ CC they do have a light manipulation technique I'll try to find it.

Good luck with it man.


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## TheStickyIcky (Jul 20, 2007)

I want to try if for nothing else to find out if it works and post here for members to see. It just seems to me that if it were that easy more people would do it in their own home. I guess most just find it easier to clone..


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## DangerMouse (Jul 22, 2007)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> I think what he means is by breeding with hermies you're introducing hermie genes to the pool. *Use ga, silver or unstable lighting(12 on, 5 off, 8 on, 10 off, etc.) to hermie a female and sex a totally different female, not a clone, with the hermie pollen and you get feminised seeds.*


 
BBP is correct.  You can bank on it.

DM


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## HHF (Jul 23, 2007)

*STS is what you should use on plants you have tested that are reluctant to reverse by light stressing. Here is your basic recipe..

Part A: .7 gram silver nitrate stirred into 40ml distilled water
Part B: 2.6 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 160 ml distilled water

Next, slowly add the silver nitrate solution to the sodium thiosulfate solution while stirring. This combination is then added to 800 ml of distilled water to equal 1 liter. This is your final stock solution. It is diluted 1:9 with more distilled water to make your final working solution, which then gets sprayed on your target plant.


*


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## Hick (Jul 23, 2007)

TheStickyIcky said:
			
		

> It just seems to me that if it were that easy more people would do it in their own home. ..



_"hit the nail..RIGHT on the head" sticky_


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