# Leaf Problem 2



## D3 (Apr 5, 2009)

You can see the one on the right(Jock Horror). Left Hawaiian. JH is doing great, PH has got problems. Help me out. PH is 5.8, ppm's are 380, room temp 75, water temp 75. Thanks Man:afroweed:


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## D3 (Apr 6, 2009)

Sorry the one on the left is the Jock Horror.


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## D3 (Apr 6, 2009)

Hello anyone out there?


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## 4u2sm0ke (Apr 6, 2009)

have you started giveing nutes?  and you need to remember this is a worldwide site..so your question could take a day or two to get around..ill throw it back on top..but seeing you are hydro and i do mostly soil  i aint gonna put foot in mouth again..and maybe some more info for us..what nutes..and what lights..in what size area..and whats the tin foil looking stuff..thanks for growing  and someone will be along shortly to help..okay:ciao:take care and be safe:bolt::bong:


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## D3 (Apr 6, 2009)

Thanks buddy, I am using nutes, around 200ppm (very low because young). I added some epsom salt for the mag. to see if that is the problem. Thats why my ppm's jumped to 380. At least thats what it looks like the problem is. Just wanted to make sure. They do look a little better today. I dont mean to be impatient, but you know, there our babies. Thanks my friend.


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## Newbud (Apr 6, 2009)

Right well i imagine i might get a slap for this and if someone got a better answer please correct me and answer for this guy, but,,,
I started to get a similar looking problem with my experimental DWC ( usually a coco grower ).
Now, the DWC girl was growing much quicker ( not just stretching ) than my other clones ( coco girls ) but was on the same strength nutes, anyway when i was changing the res on the DWC girl i needed somewhere to put her so i sat her on/in the nute bucket for my mother plant ( stronger nute mix ).
Low and behold in that day she started to look better so on a hunch i decided to re-mix up DWC res ( that i'd just done earlier that day ) to the strength of nutes mother was on.
Few days gone by now and she looking better.
Now i dont know what anyone else will say but from what i can see it looks like it was a nute defficiancy caused by the mix been to week.

Not saying thats what you should do, wouldn't want to miss-inform anyone just passing on my own observation from my own problem


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## Newbud (Apr 8, 2009)

Well my DWC girl curling at the edges again so i'm guessing there still a deficiancy somewhere


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## D3 (Apr 8, 2009)

Still bad & getting worse. Anyone else have any ideas?


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## Newbud (Apr 8, 2009)

Found this on magnesium, its the only one that sounds like my prob, which sounds like yours, but the pics dont really look the same  mine are more curled up at the edges and not two shades of green, so confusing lol, read through the resources here and other sites and keep coming back to mag????????????? BLAGGED  

Magnesium (Mg) - Micronutrient and Mobile Element


Magnesium helps supports healthy veins while keeping a healthy leaf production and its structure. Magnesium is significant for chlorophyll-production and enzyme break downs. Magnesium which must be present in relatively large quantities for the plant to survive, but yet not to much to where it will cause the plant to show a toxicity.


Magnesium is one of the easiest deficiencies to tell the green veins along with the yellowness of the entire surrounding leave is a dead giveaway, but sometimes thats not always the case here. In case you have one of those where it doesnt show the green veins, sometimes leaf tips and edges may discolor and curl upward. The growing tips can turn lime green when the deficiency progresses to the top of the plant. The edges will feel like dry and crispy and usually affects the lower leaves in younger plants, then will affect the middle to upper half when it gets older, but It can also happen on older leaves as well. The deficiency will start at the tip then will take over the entire outer left and right sides of the leaves. The inner part will be yellow and or brownish in color, followed by leaves falling without withering. The tips can also twist and turn as well as curving upwards as if you curl your tongues.


Excessive levels of magnesium in your plants will exhibit a buildup of toxic salts that will kill the leaves and lock out other nutrients like Calcium (Ca). Mg can get locked out by having too much Calcium, Chlorine or ammonium in your soil/water. 
One of the worst problems a person can have is a magnesium def caused by a ph lockout. By giving it more magnesium to cure the problem when you are thinking you are doing good, but actually you are doing more harm then good. When the plants cant take in a nutrient because of the ph being off for that element, the plant will not absorb it but it will be in the soil therefore causing a buildup. A buildup will be noticed by the outer parts of the plant becoming whitish and or a yellowish color. The tips and part way in on the inner leaves will die and feel like glass. Parts affected by Magnesium deficiency are: space between the veins (Interveinal) of older leaves; may begin around interior perimeter of leaf.




Problems with Magnesium being locked out by PH troubles 

Light Acid Soils, soils with excessive potassium, calcium and or phosphorus


Soil

Magnesium gets locked out of soil growing at ph levels of 2.0-6.4
Magnesium is absorbed best in soil at a ph level of 6.5-9.1 . (Wouldnt recommend having a ph of over 7.0 in soil) anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Magnesium deficiency.



Hydro and Soil less Mediums 

Magnesium gets locked out of Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 2.0-5.7
Magnesium is absorbed best in Hydro and Soil less Mediums at ph levels of 5.8-9.1
(Wouldnt recommend having a ph over 6.5 in hydro and soil less mediums.) Best range for hydro and soil less mediums is 5.0 to 6.0. Anything out of the ranges listed will contribute to a Magnesium deficiency.



Solution to fixing a Magnesium deficiency
Any Chemical/Organic nutrients that have Magnesium in them will fix a Magnesium deficiency. (Only mixing at ½ strength when using chemical nutrients or it will cause nutrient burn!)
Other nutrients that have magnesium in them are: Epsom salts, which is fast absorption. Dolomite lime and or garden lime (same thing just called different) which is slow absorption. Sulfate of Potash, Magnesia which is medium absorption. Worm Castings, which is slow absorption. Crabshell which is slow absorption. Earth Juice Mircoblast, which is fast acting. (a must buy!! Has lots of 2ndary nutrients). 
Now if you added to much chemical nutrients and or organics,( which is hard to burn your plants when using organics) You need to Flush the soil with plain water. You need to use 2 times as much water as the size of the pot, for example: If you have a 5 gallon pot and need to flush it, you need to use 10 gallons of water to rinse out the soil good enough to get rid of excessive nutrients.



Picture one shows a mid grade magnesium deficiency.


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## pcduck (Apr 8, 2009)

What do your roots look like? I try to keep my water temps in the 60's.


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## Newbud (Apr 8, 2009)

Fine, HUGE amount of em and healthy.
Wish i could figure it out i gettin anoyed with it now lol, glad this was just a trial experiment, if i'd have done full blown set up i'd be well hacked off lol, thinking about throwing it in good old coco


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## Newbud (Apr 8, 2009)

Some pics of my poorly girl HERE


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## Newbud (Apr 8, 2009)

Found something else that may be of interest.
Seems to back up mg deficiency thing but you tried that??????????

Id also say that the whole system of nutrients is a delicate balance of +ve and -ve ions, adding a certain element such as Mg usually has the effect of altering the potential with a sudden and drastic availability of the element within solution, the plant uptakes this solution and the problem is further compounded as the plant goes further away from centre...I have read so many growers say "wow the plants have gone really green bafter I added the Epsom Salts" (excess Mg symptoms) then a few days later its "my plant has stopped growing and is starting to yellow in the leaves" (Iron lockout).... as a further example or approach to the overall picture of nutrient solutions think of ph correction....adding ph up (+ve ions) to a solution that you have added too much down ie acid (-ve) to, it shouldnt be done, the whol solution should be dicarded. As it is in DWC, NFT, Dripper,etc etc in hydroponics, if we discard and completly replace our solutions regularly (and use a hydroponics nutrient to begin with) deficiencies will become non existant. Occasionally, and I mean occasionally we will need to add a slight amount of Mg, and it should be fractional, but this should be such a rare situation if the other practises are correct.

Ph drift is a great thing, letting it climb to 5.9- 6.1 isnt going to have an adverse effect whatsoever, in fact the inverse is true, the rise will permit correct iron, potassium and phosphorous uptake and prevent the deficiencies that people claim to be experiencing. This is especially the case during flowering, the PH rise will result in slightly more P being absorbed so the constant battle to keep the PH at 5.5 or even lower I think is a little futile.


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## D3 (Apr 8, 2009)

My pH is between 5.8 & 6.0. My roots are bright white & look good. I'm trying to bring my water temp down, now. This morning I change out the water in the resavoir. I'm going to flush them for a day or two. I'll start back with 200 ppm's, & slowly bring it back to around 500 ppm's. The problem I have with the epsom salt, is raises my ppm's way too high. Is that normal? This still looks like a mag problem to me. But I could be wrong.


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## Newbud (Apr 8, 2009)

> Dump your res, use the epsom salts for your feet, kick your ppm back up to 1300 (about 8ml/gal)and raise your pH to 6.1 until a week after your problem goes away. (About two weeks for your situation, I'd guess)



Got that answer from another reputable site, just passing it on.
Oh yeah i know you carn't go that high on ppm yet just passing on the answer


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## pcduck (Apr 8, 2009)

Why are you even using epsom salts at this young age? What nutes are you using. I still think it is a heat problem, but then again I am stoned.


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

Well his look to be curling up from sides like mine and i know for sure i dont have a heat problem.
Flippin mine to 12/12 and its got a week to sort its head out cos everything is as should be.
If it dont pull itself together its getting thrown in coco lol


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

If it's a mag defiency, What else should I use. I know there young, but what else do I do? i use GH 3 part nutes. If I dont solve this problem NOW, I loose them.


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

Dude i dunno whata tell you, by everthing i read epsom is the way so if that not fixin it i dunno man, i sure as hell keep looking and asking though mate and if you find any answers else where let me know em plz, its driving me mad too


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

Found this, very similar looking problem and they way he describes it sounds same too, ends with a solution too 

Could be an MG defeciency, but it looks to me like it's more of an imbalance issue, rather than lacking MG by the sounds of the products you are using. Those leaves look pretty dark and twisted. If it was my garden, I would back offfthe fertilizer for a bit, and maybe use a product like Cal-Mag Plus instead of a full-on fertilizer until newer and less distorted growth emerges.
Might be worth mentioning: if I am not mistaken, MG defeciencies show up on lower leaves first. Calcium defeciencies sometimes cause yellowing and distorted new growth. I still think it's more likely an imbalance due to overfertilization.

I think you are right. I fed them the Mg and it didn't seem to help much. I will back off on the nutes and although I have no money right now to go out and get Cal-Mag, what I plan to do is feed them water mixed with epsom salts and a organic calcium supplement I have from my last grow, taking care not to overwater. That should take care of both Ca and Mg. It's definitely got something to do with calcium or magnesium or both. I'll let you know how it goes.


well, the plants obviously needed calcium, because after applying the organic calcium supplement yesterday the plants underwent EXPLOSIVE growth overnight, adding 1-2" in height in a SINGLE DAY. Interveinal chlorosis and twisted growing tips were reduced and the fan leaves are looking alot better, with more green color and a waxy/shiny appearance as opposed to the dry matte look they exhibited earlier. Secondary growing tips also exploded with lots of new growth as well.

actually, the plants grew so fast they are nearly a foot tall now, and I've decided to put them into flowering (I only want them to end up being about 2-3' tall at harvest.) next watering they will get straight water then the next will be 1/2 strength Age Old Organics Bloom formula.

Seems to have done the trick!


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

Thanks dude, I'm going to figure this out. It's confusing whats happening to my plants.


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)




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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

DLM3 said:
			
		

> Thanks dude, I'm going to figure this out. It's confusing whats happening to my plants.


 
You dont say lol, everything seems to say mg but when i look at pics elsewhere they got brown bits and bits dyin and stuff, dont look the same


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

Any one use GH floro series? If so give me a rundown on how to use them. I an a little confused with the micro. I know I'm suppost to use it first, than the gro. On the bottle it says to use the same amount of each. Is that right? Do I use Micro every time I need to add nutes or just the gro?


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

Dunno nothin about em but i found this, dunno if it any use just throwin stuff at ya lol www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/fchcol.html
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-15427.html



> If you use the GH go with the lucas formula. 1 part micro 2 parts bloom. It does very well for me. It can be used the whole grow. I have no problems.


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

DLM3... question for ya mate...
                                          How certain are you about your night time temps?
I'm asking because i had a cold snap last week and window was open at night and i got problems, now as i said it was just my DWC girl with the problem yeah, well for last few nights window has been open at night as it had warmed up some here. Checked my veg room this mornin and when walked in it was cold so i'm thinking it not been as warm on the nights as i thought and low and behold some of the coco girls are just starting to curl up at the edges too. As cold can cause a nute lock or deficiency it makes sense to me that its connected especially with the DWC girl being effected first cos i pretty sure the water would cool down quicker than coco and if you remember from some of the first posts i said DWC girl was starting to look better till  2-3 days ago then she took a turn for the worse,,, can you see a connection? cos i can.
I'm just gona keep a close eye on temps and feed as usual for now cos i think they'll sort themselves out, coco girls will for sure i guarantee it.

Are you absolutely certain they not got a chill?


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

Aint it funny that i never had any trouble when i first started and now i feel like i learned so much and i gettin issues lol.
Bloody glad i got a mother and 100's of cuttings cos i can just replace em, hope you can figure yours out man.


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## pcduck (Apr 9, 2009)

DLM3 said:
			
		

> If it's a mag defiency, What else should I use. I know there young, but what else do I do? i use GH 3 part nutes. If I dont solve this problem NOW, I loose them.



I use GH 3 part and never had a mag deficiency. For aggressive veg I might use 6ml micro, 9ml grow, and 3ml bloom. For flowering I may use 5ml micro and 10ml bloom with no grow.


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

pcduck, am I suppost to add Bloom with the Micro & the Gro when I'm vegging? I thought during vegging I use Micro & Gro, Than switch the Gro for Bloom when I start 12/12 (budding). If I'm suppost to use all 3 throughout all stages of the grow, than thats my problem.


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## pcduck (Apr 9, 2009)

During veg I use all three of the GH 3 part. During the very beginning of flowering(sometimes)  I use all three then, eventually deleting the grow. This is a typical recipe. 
veg:2ml micro,3ml grow,1ml bloom
beginning of flowering: 2ml micro, 2ml grow, 2ml bloom
flowering: 3ml micro, 6ml bloom
flush: water
this is just a sample it varies depending on the strain.


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

Thats got to be the problem. I'm not using the bloom at all. I must be cutting out certain nutes it needs. Several questions: 1-Should I premix the nutes in a gallon of water using micro, than gro, than bloom? Or should I mix right in the resavoir starting with micro, than gro, than bloom? On the gh site, it says not to premix. I have also read on sites that I should premix. 2-Should I use the strength it says on the bottle or is that too strong?

Newbud, My temp is a constant 75 degrees day & night. I am vegging 24/7 with the light, so I dont have a problem with it getting too cold or too hot at night.


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

Well i'm glad you seem to be getting somewhere with it man, hope you can turn it around


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

I dont know what else it could be. I am doing everything else right. This has got to be it. I am going to go ahead & finish my flush I'm doing now & start back with using all 3 parts at 200 ppm & slowly bring the ppm's back up to between 500 to 700 ppm's. Than will see. This should solve my p[roblem.
Newbud, you tried hard to help me, THANK YOU. Anything you need, I'm there.


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## Newbud (Apr 9, 2009)

Not a problem at all my man, if no-one tried to help each other these sites wouldn't last long would they lol.

We should all be looking out for everyone as we all share a common goal.

Thanx for tha thanx lol, really hope it works out man, keep posting the progress cos it will help me and others to learn what was wrong and how to help others in future


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## pcduck (Apr 9, 2009)

What I do is measure out the micro and put that in a 5 gallon bucket stir well, then the grow, then the bloom stirring well in between each additive. Always Micro first. I have never tried diluting it any further prior to mixing.


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

How big is your resavoir? Mine is 12 gallons. When I need to boost the nutes, it's a small amount. Can I premix the same amount of nutes in a gallon of water and distribute it over a period of time or will the nutes loose it's strength?


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

Also pcduck, can you give me a feeding schedule from young vegging till harvest? I use an areoflo.


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## pcduck (Apr 9, 2009)

I grow in 5 gallon buckets, one plant to a bucket.
I don't think the nutes will "expire".
I also change my buckets out every 7-10 days just top up with ph adjusted water in between changes.
Every strain  has its own requirements to what it needs so any feeding schedule is strain related. This come from experience. Although GH does have a nice flora calculator on its web site. Also  ph meter is a must and ppm meter is nice to have for dwc.


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## D3 (Apr 9, 2009)

I use a blulab combo meter. Thanks dude, you've been a great help.


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## Newbud (Apr 10, 2009)

Hows it going DLM3? Are you seeing an improvement yet?
My coco girls looking fine and the wierd growing on the DWC girl sorting itself out too now i got my temps sorted, just up'd the nutes a bit and shut window at night lol.
Me thinks i got lucky.
Hope your girls getting better


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## D3 (Apr 11, 2009)

They are doing great. Now that I got my nutes right, the leaves are opening back up & there growing like crazy. The hawaiian is out growing the jock horror, big time. I'm going to have to top the hawaiian so I can keep an even grow. In about 3 weeks I'm going 12/12. Sounds like you got yours figured out too. Thats great. Thanks for your help.

pcduck, thank you as well. You help me figure out that it was a nute problem. Thanks man.


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## pcduck (Apr 11, 2009)

Glad you got your garden turned around:aok:

Good luck and here is some *Green Mojo* for your garden.


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## D3 (Apr 11, 2009)

Thanks for the MOJO, you never know it might work.


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## Newbud (Apr 11, 2009)

I always did like a happy ending


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