# 215 Watt LED Grow



## Rogue (Sep 12, 2008)

I am growing under a 215 watt LED light I made my self.  If you are curious about it I show some of the build at the end of my 25 watt grow as well as some pictures of the closet. My grow area is 24" x 35" with about 6 feet of grow height if needed. The walls are covered with shiny Mylar. I also have a removable side that sits in front of the sliding door on the inside it is just a big piece of card board with Mylar taped to it. It is removed for the picture. A 4" cooling fan blows in for air exchange and a can fan with a carbon filter is used for exhaust through a hole in the top of the closet.

I have my new grow up and going. I put 16 good bag seeds in to germinate Sunday night and by Monday at bed time about a dozen had cracked and sent out a small taproot. I planted 10 into 4" flower pots. Yesterday night 5 had poked through the soil. Today all 10 are up and growing, so I am going to call today Day 1 of the grow. I am planing on culling 4 of them when I transplant in a week or so to 8" flower pots. Where the plants will live out there life.:hubba:

Now I am going to answer the question you've been wondering.

 'Why LEDs?'

The new high power LEDs are only slightly less efficient in producing light than HPS, but you can control the color of light being produced. I have designed my setup to produce light close to the PAR light spectrum. I am hoping by doing this to actually give the plant more usuable light than a comparable illumination by HPS. My setup is using about 35 watts per square foot of growing area or about the same watts per square foot as a 400 watt hps used on a 3.5' x 3.5' area.


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## clanchattan (Sep 12, 2008)

dude.........thats awesome. first led set up ive seen. i wish i had the room for somthing like that.


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## PUFF MONKEY (Sep 12, 2008)

nice !!!!! i wanna see what it does


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 12, 2008)

Keep us posted.  It would be so cool if we could get the same results with LEDs as we get with HPS.


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## KushBlower12 (Sep 12, 2008)

Im definitely watching this too. I would love it if I could use LEDs. Smaller, better positioning, no heat! no $300 electricity bill!


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## bombbudpuffa (Sep 12, 2008)

Looks great! How much did it cost to build the array?


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## [email protected] (Sep 12, 2008)

Awesome looking setup and concept. Curious to see how it goes. Lots of luck and plenty of *Green Mojo* for the ladies....:48: :goodposting:


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## Rogue (Sep 12, 2008)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> Looks great! How much did it cost to build the array?



It was about $200 for the LEDs, $90 for the power supply and about another $50 for the various other pieces and parts.


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Sep 12, 2008)

i would get those seedlings up CLOSE to those led's man. 
Within an inch . The stems are stretching and you are going to have to support them before long if you aren't careful. A fan in the grow room will help them strengthen also. 

Keep em low man. Led's are nice but they aren't HID's and they ain't flourescents. You must keep em close as possible to the tops.Just wondering... with all the $$ you spent on the led's why not a small HID like a 250 HPS ?

Temps are managable with a 250 and can be used from seed to weed. Anyways just wandering if you were just curios on the led's or what. i just haven't seen too many people happy with them


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## Hyperbrandon (Sep 12, 2008)

Very cool looking setup.


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## Rogue (Sep 12, 2008)

Mr.Wakenbake said:
			
		

> i would get those seedlings up CLOSE to those led's man.
> Within an inch . The stems are stretching and you are going to have to support them before long if you aren't careful. A fan in the grow room will help them strengthen also.
> 
> Keep em low man. Led's are nice but they aren't HID's and they ain't flourescents. You must keep em close as possible to the tops.Just wondering... with all the $$ you spent on the led's why not a small HID like a 250 HPS ?
> ...



Just doing it as an experiment. I have done several grows in the past with fluorescents. My 25 watt grow was done because a friend of mine did some web work for a guy that imports LED lighting from China and as part of the payment he had some prototype bulbs made for him.  My buddy was hoping to start importing them and sell them on the web. He has never grown so he gave them to me to test out. They were a bust but got me interested. While helping him do some research for the prototypes I discovered MP and have been hanging here learning since. If my try at making the perfect LED growlight ends up being a bust as well I am going to switch to a HPS as I have never used one my self and I really have the growing bug again. 

As for bringing the plants closer that wont really work as the LEDs are very focused beams and the plants need to be about 6" away for the beams to merge and cover the whole area evenly. The stretching doesn't seem real bad yet except on a couple and it is proably as much from the MG soil as the lights. I have already begun to supercrop them to try and control them.


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## Elven (Sep 12, 2008)

That is one hell of an LED setup. I love experiments like this, I think that LED's are the future once growers figure out the best way to do it. I myself was thinking of a box that fit over the plant that had LED every 1 inch for spaced out light just to try on one. I will do that kind of stuff once I can grow something to begin with. Well anyway the setup looks awesome and I cant wait to see the updates on the little baby buds.


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## massproducer (Sep 12, 2008)

now when you say 215 watt LED grow, do you mean equvilant to 215 watts, or 215 watts of actual LED's?

I ask because the research I have done on LED's says that to have 215 of LED's would take up a huge amount of space.  I have been looking at buying a few panels for my new veg room.


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## Rogue (Sep 13, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> now when you say 215 watt LED grow, do you mean equvilant to 215 watts, or 215 watts of actual LED's?
> 
> I ask because the research I have done on LED's says that to have 215 of LED's would take up a huge amount of space.  I have been looking at buying a few panels for my new veg room.



It is 215 watts of LEDs!!!

I am running 384 LEDs that are said to be 1/2 watt. In reality some colors are a bit more and some less so all in all in ended up being 215 watts. I am using a 25 amp 12 volt bench switch mode power supply which actually puts out 13.8 volts. The resistors and the LEDs are pulling a little over 18 amps so I am actually running closer to 250 watts but about 35 watts are being used up by the resistors.


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## Cam09 (Sep 14, 2008)

Very cool man. pulling up a chair and a :bong1: to :watchplant:


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## Rogue (Sep 14, 2008)

Just a little update. The sprouts are doing fine and starting to respond to the supercropping and fan treatment.


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## Rogue (Sep 19, 2008)

The babies are growing. One of the stretchy ones got blown over by the intake fan, kind of a leaner now. Oh well going to cull 4 of them any way.


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## TommyBres (Sep 19, 2008)

Mr.Wakenbake said:
			
		

> i would get those seedlings up CLOSE to those led's man.
> Within an inch . The stems are stretching and you are going to have to support them before long if you aren't careful. A fan in the grow room will help them strengthen also.
> 
> Keep em low man. Led's are nice but they aren't HID's and they ain't flourescents. You must keep em close as possible to the tops.Just wondering... with all the $$ you spent on the led's why not a small HID like a 250 HPS ?
> ...


I was thinking the same thing except for 250 watt, for that price he could've gotten a 600 watt HPS setup...


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## PUFF MONKEY (Sep 20, 2008)

mebeafarmer said:
			
		

> Looks awesome!
> 
> I'm a rookie but I was wondering if Mylar on the entire floor surface would also aid in light reflection?????????
> 
> ...


yes....


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## KaliKitsune (Sep 20, 2008)

You'll have a great canopy with LEDs, but underneath, not so much. LEDs have poor canopy penetration due to their tuned wavelength. 

Just bear that in mind. Even an array of 5w lumilux bulbs would have problems getting more than a few inches past the canopy.


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## time4tokin20s (Sep 22, 2008)

That's a cool set-up.Do you think a few cfl's would keep any stretching to a minimum in a LED grow like that?


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## Rogue (Sep 24, 2008)

They are starting to take off. I think I am going to transplant the best 6 from the 4" pots into the bigger 8" pots tomorrow. I added some computer cooling fans to the light since the last update to make it run cooler. The cooler they run the long they last and the brighter they shine.


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## Elven (Sep 25, 2008)

Well not only do I hope it works but I hope you design and sell them to the rest of us.


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## gman (Sep 28, 2008)

KaliKitsune said:
			
		

> You'll have a great canopy with LEDs, but underneath, not so much. LEDs have poor canopy penetration due to their tuned wavelength.



First of all: "penetration" is something you should simply forget all about. Let's see why you have come to this false conclusion.

You must have seen a blue-red lighting and noticed that there is no light underneath, right? Why? Because the foliage has absorbed the useful components and there is no reflection of red and blue from the leaves. Understood?

Okay. Now you have seen a fantastic "penetration" using a sodium lamp. What has happened? The white light contains a wide spectrum of colors. The foliage absorbs the useful ones (red & blue) and reflects away the rest (green) which bounces in the foliage and you get the false impression that there is a lot of light everywhere. If you measure the amount of red and green inside the foliage it is zero. But you cannot see this due to the green light bouncing all over the place.

Why is this impression false? Because plants do not use the green component. They reflect it away. It is of no use. Seeing a lot of green light proves nothing about the real quality of the light source. Period.

If you have a wide array of LEDs the "penetration" you are calling should actually be  a LOT better because the light source is not just one single spot that only gives light to a small part of the foliage. With a proper  LED build you will be able to control the "penetration" to all parts of the plant because you can position the leds  MUCH better than the single sodium spot.

Remember: what the eye sees is simply the reflection of green colour from the leaves and that is the least important thing about lights.

If you want to get light to the lower parts using an old-fashioned lamp you must use reflective material AROUND the plant (and the light source must give the white light to this reflective surface from which it will bounce to the lower parts of the foliage.

Normal white lights produce a wide variety of wavelengths and most of them do not benefit the plant at all. Infrareds are the most useless part and if there are UV components they are harmful to all life. Why on earth use expensive energy to something completely useless?

I am absolutely convinced that using proper LEDs and the correct wavelengths is the only way to go.

GMan


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## Rogue (Sep 28, 2008)

There has been a lot of talk and discussion this summer over light penetration.
Great Thread:http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28104&highlight=penetration

I believe that having lights in multiple locations like my array should help over all penetration of light on the plant. It is like the use of multiple lights in photography to kill shadows. The shadow created by one leaf from source A gets light on it from source Z so there ends up being no shadow.


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## papabeach1 (Oct 1, 2008)

dude..I understand you did the math with par compare with 400 watt

why not get the par match up with 600 watt hps so you can produce more
buds  that could be possible  IMO  just go up with the lumens..
it might run u up like 430 watt..   I updated my thread on hid vs floursec  
maybe can be helpful to you..


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## Elven (Oct 1, 2008)

Please keep up the experiment . Without trial and error there is no advancement.


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## Rogue (Oct 1, 2008)

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> dude..I understand you did the math with par compare with 400 watt
> 
> why not get the par match up with 600 watt hps so you can produce more
> buds  that could be possible  IMO  just go up with the lumens..
> ...



The comparison for a 600 watt HPS would roughly be one used on a 4' x 5' area. I am using basically 32 watts per square foot, so in my mind that is comparable to most HPS setups on a watt/ft2 basis.



			
				Elven said:
			
		

> Please keep up the experiment . Without trial and error there is no advancement.



No plans on stopping. I am just keeping updates to weekly right now. I'll put new pictures up tomorrow. The plants are looking good and have been culled to 6 and transplanted into 8" (204 mm) pots.


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## Rogue (Oct 3, 2008)

Here are the promised pictures. That plants are doing good over all. The bottom first true leaves on one are dying, but the rest of the plant looks healthy. I have few yellow tips on some leaves probably from the MG soil. 

So what do ya think?


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## stoneylove (Oct 3, 2008)

Wow, pretty impressive right now. Very interested to see if the LED's can flower like an HID. Love to see all the innovation and experimentation that goes on in this forum. Good luck with this, Rogue.


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## HydroManiac (Oct 3, 2008)

Rogue, Nice man!! Talk about no stretching!!


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## Elven (Oct 3, 2008)

nice start


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## Rogue (Oct 4, 2008)

:watchplant:I gave the plants a shot of nutes last night, 'MG Bloom Buster'.  They were looking hungry to me. We will see how that goes I know it might be a little early.

I was thinking about doing some form of topping in another week. I am not sure if I will just pinch the top off or to FIM it. Anyone with experience on both know which will make the plant bushier?

eace:


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## PUFF MONKEY (Oct 4, 2008)

Rogue said:
			
		

> There has been a lot of talk and discussion this summer over light penetration.
> Great Thread:http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28104&highlight=penetration
> 
> I believe that having lights in multiple locations like my array should help over all penetration of light on the plant. It is like the use of multiple lights in photography to kill shadows. The shadow created by one leaf from source A gets light on it from source Z so there ends up being no shadow.


this is why i prefer to use a large array of floro tubes when vegging


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## HydroManiac (Oct 4, 2008)

I just like seeing new methods mind of a true inventor


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## HydroManiac (Oct 12, 2008)

Rogue, any new pics??


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## Rogue (Oct 12, 2008)

HydroManiac said:
			
		

> Rogue, any new pics??



I mis-placed my camera after last week. i just found it today. I'll take some shots tonight or tomorrow. They are doing good.


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## Elven (Oct 12, 2008)

Rogue said:
			
		

> I mis-placed my camera after last week. i just found it today. I'll take some shots tonight or tomorrow. They are doing good.



Cant wait.   hey how do you get your links in your signature like that.


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## papabeach1 (Oct 12, 2008)

wow  that look awesome... glad you did pull all leds lights really close to the plants... now  I see no stretching...   man  you made me proud!!

ya just need to work on flowering led lights to get better yields/buds


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## Rogue (Oct 13, 2008)

Elven said:
			
		

> Cant wait.   hey how do you get your links in your signature like that.



In the edit signature area type what you want to be displayed, then left click and hold to highlight it. Once it is highlighted click on the the blue circle with the infinity symbol on the tool bar and a pop-up will open for you to enter your link.

Easy as that!:hubba:


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## Rogue (Oct 14, 2008)

Alright here are some new pics.

The first two show all 6.

The next two are of my biggest. It is starting to branch. All of them in fact have some action going on at the nodes to one degree or another.

The next one is my short fat girl I'm hoping. The node distance is really tight on that one. I had to put a roll of tape under her pot to get her closer to the light.

The last is one that is having some strange leaf problem with lower leaves. I did have to plant it deeper because it stretched bad the first day or two out of the ground. I'm thinking that might be the cause. Any thoughts?


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## bombbudpuffa (Oct 14, 2008)

Looks like over watering or a ph problem. I'd say ph.


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## HydroManiac (Oct 15, 2008)

bbp does that look like ducksfoot to you??


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## Rogue (Oct 15, 2008)

I think it is just really a broad leafed variety of indica. It had a really heavy narcotic high.


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## HydroManiac (Oct 15, 2008)

im thinking of smoking some narcotics myself haha


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## Cam09 (Oct 15, 2008)

Thanks for the update. got some great looking ladies(knock on wood) what are they about a month old now? keep'em green :farm:  love the LEDs


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## Elven (Oct 15, 2008)

Rogue said:
			
		

> In the edit signature area type what you want to be displayed, then left click and hold to highlight it. Once it is highlighted click on the the blue circle with the infinity symbol on the tool bar and a pop-up will open for you to enter your link.
> 
> Easy as that!:hubba:



Thanks alot Rogue totally makes the signature line look nicer. The ladies are growing well, I hope you figure out what that spotting is. I cant wait to see the outcome I am already looking into LED for Veg if this works well.


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## Tater (Oct 16, 2008)

Gman: nice first post  you had me till this line


> I am absolutely convinced that using proper LEDs and the correct wavelengths is the only way to go.



I'd more than gladly put my hps "array" up against any led setup you can build.  If you want to match watt for watt I'm still more than willing to bet my paycheque on it.  I'm not bashing LED's its just that the technology is still in it's infancy.  They do make leaps and bounds every month though.  Last time I checked they had 1watt led's.

Rouge, keep us all updated on the LED grow.  Nothing is gained if nothing is risked right, love to see you experimenting man.


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## Rogue (Oct 29, 2008)

My plants will be 7 weeks old Wednesday and man are they starting to take off. All except one are doing well. I can't figure out its problem it is in the same soil as the rest, on the same water schedule, getting the same nutes, light, air and temperature. But it still develops these stripes on the leaves. The new ones look good and healthy than they just sorta shut down. Very weird.


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## bombbudpuffa (Oct 29, 2008)

Looks like Mangenese or zinc imo. It's caused by too high of a ph. Some plants are like that. Some like a slightly lower/higher ph than others.


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## papabeach1 (Oct 29, 2008)

to me.. your plants is doing well..     patient...  you did succeed grew some with leds in your past...

some genetics was used with hps.. or outdoor..   they will manage to live under your belt.. you did good job..   maybe you need to raise the humidity temp..that will help them to grow better..    why don't you try the new ufo light stealth grow lights  we got the link here somewhere..  it blooms in 7 days!!.. hmm?  led power to ya...


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## Rogue (Oct 29, 2008)

Raising the humidity is kinda of a problem here. I live in a very dry climate. The air is in the teens to twenties most of the time unless it is raining or snowing. I would have to put a humidifier in the closet to really have any shot at raising it. I'll see if i can find a small one.

As for ph I'll try a little pickle juice in the water for it on the next watering cycle.


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## NorCalHal (Oct 29, 2008)

Rogue said:
			
		

> It is 215 watts of LEDs!!!
> 
> I am running 384 LEDs that are said to be 1/2 watt. In reality some colors are a bit more and some less so all in all in ended up being 215 watts. I am using a 25 amp 12 volt bench switch mode power supply which actually puts out 13.8 volts. The resistors and the LEDs are pulling a little over 18 amps so I am actually running closer to 250 watts but about 35 watts are being used up by the resistors.


 
Still not convinced on LED's, not in the least. BUT, I do commend you Rouge for your efforts!

So it say's your LED's consume 18 amps?? For 215 watts??  Wasting electricity, imo. A 1000w HID uses 9 amps @ 110v. Better results for less electricity,imo.

Is heat an issue with the LED's?


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## [email protected] (Oct 29, 2008)

norcalhal makes a very good point that was the reason i ditched my cfl setup.... man 18 amps for 212 watts is that possible??? my new pac uses like 1000 something watts and is rated like 9 ampsi think, idk much about electrical work though, other then 15 amp circuit = 1200 watts safely.


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## Tater (Oct 29, 2008)

Amps and voltage are directly related.  You can reduce the amperage by increasing the voltage or you can raise the amperage by decreasing the voltage.  Watts are a way of measureing the amount of power something is consuming.  Volts and amps have nothing to do with the total amount of power being used.  (that isn't really true but as far as the scope of this conversation is concerned its all you need to know lol)


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## NorCalHal (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks Tater.
So, even tho he is usuing high amps, the actual cost is cheaper to run then a HID? it's more about the watts used? I really don't pay too much attention to power consumption, I just pay my bill.


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## Rogue (Oct 29, 2008)

As to the Amps question it is simple math. 

Amps x Volts = Watts

HID light 9 amps x 110 Volts = 990 Watts

My LED board 18 amps x 12 Volts = 216 Watts

The reason for the voltage difference is i am using a power supply providing DC current at 12 Volts instead AC line voltage at 110 Volts.


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## Tater (Oct 29, 2008)

:yeahthat:
What he said


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## NorCalHal (Oct 29, 2008)

Thanks fellas


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## gman (Oct 30, 2008)

Power consumption using LED:s can be even further reduced by adjusting the voltage as accurately as possible. For red LED:s the voltage should be very close to 2 volts and for blue ones about 3.4 volts. If the LEDs have been installed in parallel this is these are the voltages one should feed. If they are installed in a series one should calculate the proper voltage and adjust the voltage to to match it. 

If the voltage is too high one needs a resistor that will lower the voltage (and, of course, use some of the current to produce unnecessary heat). In case the voltage is a lot above the proper one most of the energy is lost, of course.

I am building my own LED package trying to optimize the voltages. The current used by a typical blue LED is 20ma and the voltage is 3.5V. In this case one single LED consumes 0.02A x 3.5V = 0.07W. One hundred of them should  consume 2A and respectively 7W.

Gman


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## Rogue (Oct 30, 2008)

The voltages depend on the LED and the manufacturer. My blues use 3.2 V, the Warm White uses 3.3 V, the bright white uses 3.4 V and the red 2 V all at 150ma. 

From your numbers Gman I am guessing you are using the 5mm LEDs. If you are not already committed to them I would look at the 10mm 1/2W or 1W LEDs that are out. You get more light for less soldering. Also it is always a good idea to use a resistor in series with your LEDs as it helps prevent over currenting them as well as helps take part of any voltage spikes.


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## papabeach1 (Oct 30, 2008)

umm.. why use amp? 

to me  leds can live with 120 volts?   just light and wires and plug with timer?

maybe some of little fuses like cars have ?

some cars use leds..


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## Tater (Oct 31, 2008)

Yeah screw amps what do you need those for?  To me you should be able to just power them with rainbows and wishes.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 31, 2008)

Tater said:
			
		

> Yeah screw amps what do you need those for?  To me you should be able to just power them with rainbows and wishes.



:rofl:


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## WannaGetHigh (Oct 31, 2008)

can wait to see how these girls turn out best of luck


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## Rogue (Oct 31, 2008)

Tater said:
			
		

> Yeah screw amps what do you need those for?  To me you should be able to just power them with rainbows and wishes.



I might get in trouble for passing this on but you seem like some one who really understands how the world works and I think you can handle knowing how electricity really works.

*[FONT=trebuchet ms, Arial, Helvetica]     ELECTRICAL THEORY OF  	SMOKE...BY JOSEPH LUCAS[/FONT]*

 Positive ground depends upon  	proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention  	of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing  	that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every  	time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This  	can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing. 

    When, for example, the smoke escapes from an electrical component (i.e.,  	say, a Lucas voltage regulator), it will be observed that the component  	stops working. The function of the wire harness is to carry the smoke from  	one device to another; when the wire harness "springs a leak", and lets all  	the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterwards. Starter motors were  	frowned upon in British Automobiles for some time, largely because they  	consume large quantities of smoke, requiring very large wires. 

    It has been noted that Lucas components are possibly more prone to  	electrical leakage than Bosch or generic Japanese electrics. Experts point  	out that this is because Lucas is British and all things British leak.  	British engines leak oil, shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brakes  	leak fluid, British tires leak air and the British defense establishment  	leaks secrets...so, naturally, British electronics leak smoke. 

    Author Unknown 


*The Theory Explained through  	Discussion.
*
    When wires smoke, how come the smoke is not the same color as the wire? 

    This is not completely true. When the smoke is in the wire, it is under  	pressure (called voltage). The pressure difference causes the color to  	change from the normal color we are used to. Not unlike the blood in our  	veins and arteries changing color due to the oxygen content. When the smoke  	escapes the wire and is exposed to air, the pressure is released, and the  	color reverts back to what we commonly recognize as smoke. The wire then  	changes to the color of the smoke that escaped. 

    I hope this helps you understand. 


    I would only question the last sentence of that description. It has been my  	experience that the wire turns a color directly opposite of the smoke. 

    Not always true, I think it must depend on the composition of the smoke in  	question. 


    I should have made it a little clearer; the color the wire becomes, is  	directly proportional to the escape velocity of the smoke. Higher velocities  	generate higher heat. This heat tends to burn the wire and affect the  	coloring. The statement was meant to be a generalization, indicating the  	fact that the color of the wire does in fact change. Sorry for the  	miscommunication. 

    I was speaking of electrical smoke which is generally white. The spent smoke  	casing generally assumes a color somewhat near black after the smoke leaves.     

    I can't stand it anymore! If, as you say, light bulbs suck up darkness and  	convert it to smoke which is transmitted (via wire) to a power source for  	recycling...why do car batteries go dead when lights are left on? Do car  	batteries (and flashlight batteries for that matter) have a limited amount  	of storage capability? Is it like a hard drive that gets so full that you  	have to double-space and then lose all data? 

    Now you're getting it....... 

    I thought you guys were smarter than this. Of course the battery stores the  	smoke. In fact it can store so much smoke that if you open the top and light  	a match, the resulting explosion can do serious damage. I'm sure you are  	aware that usually where there's smoke there's fire. If you connect the  	battery to a charger, the smoke is then returned to the wire (Remember, a  	light bulb wont work unless it is connected to a wire system) for the  	utility companies to use. Your hard drive analogy is a very good example.     

    Our hardware guys might be onto something in their quest for superior  	wiring. I have noticed the unique method of of series/parallel wiring the  	power strips on our systems seems to prevent the smoke from getting out of  	the wires. A "Smoke Loop" of sorts. In the case of the "smoked" workstation  	recently, you should notice that this was a conventional single power strip  	installation. 

    Since color is percieved by the cone shaped receptors in our eyes, and cones  	require more light that their rod shaped counterparts. Is the sky blue at  	night? 

    At night the process including contraction of the pupil is visual purple by  	which the eye adapts to conditions of increased illumination when facing 300  	candle power redeflecting devices. 

    Since there is a spectrum of light that we as humans cannot see, I support  	the theory that everything is going up in smoke, we just can't see it. This  	may explain why the neighbors dog barks for no apparant reason. 

    I think your basic understanding of smoke systems is remarkable. However I  	find a flaw with your theory. The battery is a reusable storage device for  	smoke. therefore, one would assume that some sort of one way valve (we can  	call it a diode) should be needed to prevent pressure flooding back into the  	system while at rest. Unlike the A/C system, the smoke system is collecting  	darkness at the headlights and converting it to smoke. This causes the  	system to fill up. The battery can contain much higher pressures and volumes  	than the wires. If this pressure exceeds the capacity of the wire, it will  	cause a rupture as you described. The rupture can be controlled by a  	sacraficial device known as a fuse. But this still doesn't eliminate the  	problem. Perhaps a two way valve (zener diode) is used to allow a small  	amount of pressure to return to the system, and partially equalize. I find  	this theory unlikely though, due to the increase in the force required to  	start the pump (which is now under pressure) working again... 

    The smoke continues circulating through the system, due to the pressure  	differential in the battery (smoke pressure/vacuum reservoir). When the  	reservoir becomes depleted, the pressure simply equalizes everywhere in the  	system (similar to an A/C system when it's turned off) and stuff just wont  	work. Notice the relations: Work (W) = Force (F) x Distance (D); Force (F) =  	total difference in pressure (Dp) x Area (A). Therefore, the work done in a  	pressure system is: Dp x A x D. If the pressure differential (Dp) is reduced  	to zero then W = 0 x A x D = 0. 

    The smoke only escapes the wires when a path is created between the pressure  	differential areas (@ either the reservoir or the pump) that has too little  	restriction. When this happens, the smoke travels through the wires so fast  	that the friction between the smoke and the outer walls of the wiring heats  	the wires until they rupture. The smoke continues to escape until its  	pressure is equalized with the atmosphere, or until the conduit that  	provides the path between pressure areas is severed. When this happens, the  	sudden drop in pressure allows the wires to "collapse" slightly and, being  	soo hot, as the edges of the ruptures and severed ends touch, the material  	becomes fused, sealing the system and retaining the remaining smoke. 

    Don't forget, when the system is at rest, all the valves, (switches and  	relays) are closed, keeping the pressure areas separated. When restarting  	the pump, as long as everything is OK, the smoke pressure is equal on both  	sides of the pump and there is no net force on the pump when it begins  	operating again. Also, within the pump there are pressure/volume actuated  	one-way valves with restrictors built in, arranged in such a way that they  	keep excess smoke volume recirculating through an integral smoke loop, which  	maintains the pressure within manageable limits. 

    The excess smoke, created by the light/smoke converters (headlights and  	other darkness absorbing devices), is changed back to darkness and  	dissipated in small unit concentrations so its dark effect is not locally  	observed. The smoke pump impeller (stator), converts smoke into magnetic  	flux which does work on the engine. Some of the excess work energy is  	dissipated through the cooling system and exhaust in the form of heat, while  	the remaining work energy is converted back to smoke and distributed evenly  	in small concentrations as you drive. This maintains the total quantity of  	smoke in the system at an average that does not change over time.


:rofl:


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## Tater (Nov 1, 2008)

I have never seen that floating around before (hehe floating).   This should be made a sticky.  Please mods sticky this so that we don't have to keep explaining it over and over again.


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## tesla (Nov 4, 2008)

Ok Just one question. The local grow shop is using the led lights(On Display) The dude is really pushing them. But the thing is the tomato plants look like crap. He says that it is normal and will not affect quality,quantity or taste>Pulls up a chair, let the grow and reports continue.


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## Tater (Nov 5, 2008)

hahaha, yeah right.  The way the plants look should speak volumes about his product.  Sounds like he got suckered into buying some and now he's trying to unload them.


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## isjusalickleherbmon (Nov 5, 2008)

more pics!!!!!!!!!!!


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## isjusalickleherbmon (Nov 5, 2008)

more pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## isjusalickleherbmon (Nov 5, 2008)

:confused2: :confused2:  didnt mean to double post


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## aaonehundred (Nov 5, 2008)

Pulling up a chair. . ..


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## Rogue (Nov 15, 2008)

The plants are doing good I've been busy and haven't had time to do pictures will put a few up later today. I am going to switch to using two of the $20 HPS lights to flower on this run. After discussing and doing some testing on my LED board with a close family member I have discovered that I made some major mistakes in my wiring design. I am only getting about 30 to  40  percent of the light that my my board is capable of. So, I am going to re-wire it while this batch flowers.


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## northernlightssmokn (Nov 16, 2008)

So how are they doing??

edit...Nevermind...lol...I posted this question before noticing that there were 5 more pages to the thred....HAHAHA...the reply box should be only at the last page on the thred...

Putting down the bong and stepping away from the computer.....:bong:


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## Wiseguy_Chef (Nov 16, 2008)

yes yes where some bud porn bro, u know we are all perves an love to peak at mary-jane naked showing her big ol` bud (not mary-jane the member on the forms)


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## Rogue (Nov 17, 2008)

Up date time.

Sorry for the delay in putting anything up. My day job has been real busy leaving little time to much more the keep my babies alive and smoke some when I get home.

I'm down to 5 plants now discovered a male yesterday. I also discovered a female as well. She is already showing a couple flowers. 

I topped three of the remaining plants yesterday so I am going to wait a week and then flower. My plants are now under 2 of the $20 HPS bulbs with the reflectors they sell as an accessory. They are nice and bright but damn do they use the power.

I am not giving up on the LEDs. I discovered that I used the wrong specs when I wired them up and I am not getting the correct voltages and currents to them so they are not putting out more than about 40% of the light they should. So while this batch flowers under HPS I am going to do the fun business of completely re-wiring my board. It will be worth it in the end but I am not looking forward to it. I figure it will take me about 20 hours worth of work to cut them apart and then hook them back up correctly. Lesson learned always check your numbers twice when your not high when building something.

I will be doing weekly updates again as things have slowed down for the foreseeable future at my job.


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## bombbudpuffa (Nov 18, 2008)

Looking good Rogue.


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## Elven (Nov 18, 2008)

Good luck on the rewire! I know it will work out for the best. I just finally got my fog system working properly and I was starting to think I was nuts . well more nuts that I am.


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## Dewayne (Nov 18, 2008)

they look pretty good...the results are doing better than when i first thought when i started reading this page. you can tell the stocks on the plant are a little thin and the plants are a little stretchy, and not so compact, probably due to the lack of efficient wattage. if it was 50 per sq ft instead of 35 watts...you'd prolly have something really good. 

but on anynote...they look great and healthy, i'll have to see the yield  good luck man!


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## Wiseguy_Chef (Nov 18, 2008)

looking great bro, 30k lums are nice, so they are a big power drain huh? well let me know how much of an increase u get on the bill if ya don't mind sharing i wanna usem them 2 but i saw that about that they are power hogs.....


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## Rogue (Nov 18, 2008)

Yeah the truth behind the $20 HPS is the ballast is a cheap inefficient POS. It is a 150 watt light that takes 384 watts to light. If I had it to do over again I would buy a 400 watt digital ballast HPS instead of the 2 150 watters.


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## Elven (Nov 18, 2008)

Rogue said:
			
		

> Yeah the truth behind the $20 HPS is the ballast is a cheap inefficient POS. It is a 150 watt light that takes 384 watts to light. If I had it to do over again I would buy a 400 watt digital ballast HPS instead of the 2 150 watters.



Man I went from planning on getting one of those then two of those then a 250 then a 400 finally got the 600 Digital cuz its the most efficient. I am eager to see how your LED's work when they are at 100% I wouldn't mind using LED on my veg at least.


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## Rogue (Jan 2, 2009)

Just a quick update for everyone.  My grow died. I fell ill just before Thanksgiving and little by little it grew worse. I barely had enough energy to go to work and keep my girls watered. It got to the point that I finally decided to go see a doctor and was immediately hospitalized. It turns out that I have had pneumonia and other serious lung infections several times and never had them treated correctly. Well this caused fibrous tissue to build up around my lungs and eventually almost collapse them, the doctor told me I was running on about 25% normal lung capacity.  On top of it I had developed pneumonia again. So I was hospitalized for 3 and 1/2 weeks and had my lungs operated on to remove the fibrous infection tissue. I am back home again doing good and getting stronger. Currently not smoking or vaping anything, Thank God for Brownies!!!  My grow completely dried out as no one knew it was going. Once I heal up I am going to try again.


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## noneedforalarm (Jan 2, 2009)

thats terrible man...i was reading up on this when i first joined the site a month ago and was highly interested...i guess you see how easy stoners forget when there not reminded.i forgot all about this specific thread.sorry to hear about your situation.hope you get well and get started again soon.


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## HydroManiac (Jan 3, 2009)

Yea Rogue im suspecting this had to do alot with fungus provided from marijuana be safe be smart be careful


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## TommyBres (Jan 3, 2009)

Umm, marijuana causing pneumonia? Never heard of that one. If that's true, we're all in very big trouble.


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## mistisrising (Jan 3, 2009)

Forget all that. Dead weed has nothing on being dead. Glad to see you're all right.


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## Rogue (Jan 3, 2009)

They don't think it was MJ that caused the problem. I live in a medically legal state so off the record I told my doctors that I do smoke MJ, so that they had all of the facts. They do not think it is the cause, they do not know the cause, but believe it to be some type of bacteria. Due to my very poor lung health I was told that I should not smoke anything at this time, I was a pack a day cigarette smoker as well.


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## northernlightssmokn (Jan 3, 2009)

I am realy glad that you are ok now!!!! Man, my best wishes to you! The pack a day needs to go! Get better and get growing! we need our LED alliance...lol


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## Elven (Jan 3, 2009)

DUDE that sucks! but I know where you are coming from, I had to have my appendix taken out and when they did. They found that I had fatty tissue wrapped around my intestines. If they had not found it I may have ended up with a colostomy bag. The only bummer is that what started out as keyhole 1" incision ended up as a cesarean section scar. I hope you feel better soon and when you get backup and running let us know so we can watch your weird science


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## Tater (Jan 5, 2009)

Been away for a while, bummer on you being sick, get well soon.


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## limeg (Mar 7, 2009)

Really dug your 25w and 215w grow threads Rogue. Been thinking of making my own LED lights... have you made any progress with re-working your 215w setup?


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## jaynyota (Apr 10, 2009)

Sorry to hear about your series of bad events. I will keep the leds alive !!


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