# Over nuted



## RAR. (Jan 11, 2010)

to all this might be a little helpful for newbies like myself. My hydro is running a fogger 24/7 and my humidity is nailed at 40%. We are heating with natural gas which by its nature makes the air very dry. So I thought no big deal I will just run the fogger all the time to offset and keep the humidity up in my 4x4 grow tent. I noticed my 14 gallon res. which has 7 gallons of nute mix was going thru a gallon a day. So I would make another gallon of nute mix about every day or so to keep the res topped off. Then all of a sudden my ec/ppm went way over 2000ppm and my meter did the (1) which means to high to read. I thought im going straight by the gh 3 part guide. Then after some forum study here I found my plants are either using up the water only, or my fogger is causing excessive evaporazition which is causing a surge in nutrients. I noticed my drip emitters has salt build up. So to the pros out there do you think my thoughts are correct with the plants using the water only. I have started using water only to see if this can bring the ppm back down.


----------



## DonJones (Jan 12, 2010)

RAR,

Please explain just what you mean by fogger.  Are you talking about using a fogger inside of the hydro growing container to moisturize the roots or a fogger in the grow area to control the humidity in the room?

How does your fogger create the fog?

Where does the water for the fogger come from?

How long have you been using this system and what if any effect has it had on the PPM over what period of time?

I'm asking because according to what little I know about fog is that it is created when the air is saturated with vapor and the vapor begins to condense and forms miro droplets of water hanging in the air.  If that is what you are talking aobut versus using a very fine spray head to spray a very fine mist into the air and then onto the roots, I can't see how it could transfer anything except H2O from the reservoir to the roots. 

If you are drawing water vapor from the solution reservoir, then of course the ppms are going to skyrocket because the nutrients will be left behind.  As to the plants only "drinking the water" without the nutrients too, then you have some thing very seriously out of whack causing total nutrient lock out. 
From what little I know about that it would seem most likely to be a very low PH probably 5.0 or lower.  If I know how to read the PH versus nutrient uptake charts a high PH only locks out the trace minerals, which would have a minimal effect on the PPM since the major nutrients appear to be even absorbed even better in a high PH or alkaline solution.  I'm thinking that you would have noticed nute deficiency before things got that far out of line unless the PH for some reason just went totally out of sight.

Nothing that I can think of happening in a plant would cause it to start drinking only water and ignoring the nutrients so the answer seems like it has to be something external that would cause the plants to starve itself to death while drowning itself trying to get nutrients from the solution.

Good luck because this sounds like it could turn critical quickly.

Great smoking.


----------



## jmansweed (Jan 12, 2010)

Don, I respectively disagree - High heat, low humidity and CO2 are common ways to increase transpiration within MJ. This creates higher water to nutrient absorption and frequently contributes to a higher EC. 

Rar - it's important to add only water to your reservoir when "topping it off" it sounds like there's some salt build up, What kind of shape are the plants in? 

I'd suggest trying to develop a schedule in which you change your entire reservoir every few days and add water only in between. Evaporation alone in 40% humidity can cause a rise in EC. Best of luck.


----------



## DonJones (Jan 12, 2010)

jmansweed,

Either way, we still need a lot more information that we have.

All three of your suggestions are examples of the external issues I was talking about in the next to the last paragraph of my reply.  Also, you can always disagree with anything I say, just give information as well.  Do you have any specific information and advice on how to solve his crisis in addition to your list of possible external causes fo rthe plants to behave like they appear to be behaving?

Incidentally, 40% humidity isn't that low either if his hydro chamber is basically sealed inside of his tent.

I still need a lot more information on his setup before I can even begin to discuss things intelligently.

Also, there seems to be a significant disagreement over whether you top off with water only, change out solutions or adjust the nutrient mixes to maintain your nutrient strength.

RAR, we need INFORMATION but with a ppm that high I would immediately change out the reservoir and then try to figure out what is causing it.  Hopefully you already did that.

Great smoking.


----------



## pcduck (Jan 12, 2010)

jmansweed said:
			
		

> Rar - it's important to add only water to your reservoir when "topping it off" it sounds like there's some salt build up, What kind of shape are the plants in?



:yeahthat:...:goodposting:..... The only thing I would change is the use of _pH adjusted water_ in place of just _water._IME


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 12, 2010)

RAR. said:
			
		

> to all this might be a little helpful for newbies like myself. My hydro is running a fogger 24/7 and my humidity is nailed at 40%. We are heating with natural gas which by its nature makes the air very dry. So I thought no big deal I will just run the fogger all the time to offset and keep the humidity up in my 4x4 grow tent. I noticed my 14 gallon res. which has 7 gallons of nute mix was going thru a gallon a day. So I would make another gallon of nute mix about every day or so to keep the res topped off. Then all of a sudden my ec/ppm went way over 2000ppm and my meter did the (1) which means to high to read. I thought im going straight by the gh 3 part guide. Then after some forum study here I found my plants are either using up the water only, or my fogger is causing excessive evaporazition which is causing a surge in nutrients. I noticed my drip emitters has salt build up. So to the pros out there do you think my thoughts are correct with the plants using the water only. I have started using water only to see if this can bring the ppm back down.



First of all, IMO, it is a mistake to "go straight by the gh 3 part guide".  Differnet plants have different nutrient needs.  This is just a guideline and is not written in stone.  I have some strains that cannot take those concentrations and some that want more.  You have to learn from your plants what they need.

Second, IMO, it is a mistake to top up the res with nute solution every day.  Plants do not use all nutrients evenly.  You could have an excess of one nutrient and be deficient in another.  Your nute solutions could be low in ppms or (as you found out) high in ppm and you do not have any idea what those ppms consist of.  I think that your res should be topped up with plain pH'd water between _changings_.  Your res should be emptied, cleaned, and refilled with fresh nute solution every 7-10 days or so.

Where exactly is your fogger located?  Why are you using a fogger?  They seem a little problematic for a new grower.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 12, 2010)

Hey folks just got my camera out and took some pics, now remember im just starting out and playing with veggie seeds no mj for now, will try to up load the pics it might explain more.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 12, 2010)

Here is some pics of the set up


----------



## surreptitious (Jan 12, 2010)

no pics, i also agree with topping off your rez with water, but i pH balance the entire rez after topping off with water.  that is just what i do.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 12, 2010)

Here we go maybe this will work this time, pics include 12 lampt t5, res, fogger on top this might help a little.


----------



## surreptitious (Jan 12, 2010)

nice setup.  i use t5s for my veg spaces, too.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 12, 2010)

Plants, I set in hydro 21 days ago. "When they were placed there, they were just 2" tall", the growth has been smokin it. I had to set up 3 DWC to break up the growth and make more room, wanted to see what would happen with the DWC's. The DWC's I checked tonight they were at 6.2 ph and 1150 ppm. The purple res was 6.0ph and the ppm were above the 1950 threshold for the hannah meter. My 10th day will be tomorrow so I am going to change out res and nutes tomorrow.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 12, 2010)

Hey supper how will the 2700k t5 HO do for the flowering stage?


----------



## ozzydiodude (Jan 12, 2010)

IMO The T5 will produce good buds they just will not be as hard and tight as buds grown under HID's and may take a little longer to reach maturity.


----------



## surreptitious (Jan 12, 2010)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> IMO The T5 will produce good buds they just will not be as hard and tight as buds grown under HID's and may take a little longer to reach maturity.



ozzy, he doesnt mention whether or not these are clones, but assuming they are will you need to worry about maturity?  since they should be equally as old as the mother, correct?

what if you only veg with T5s and flower with HIDs?


----------



## ozzydiodude (Jan 12, 2010)

I was talking maturity of the buds(triches amber in color) not sexual maturity
IMO by flowering with the HID's you will get the best growth and faster reching of harvest. IME you never harvest in the time frame a breeder gives, you need to add a week or 2.


----------



## surreptitious (Jan 12, 2010)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> I was talking maturity of the buds(triches amber in color) not sexual maturity
> IMO by flowering with the HID's you will get the best growth and faster reching of harvest. IME you never harvest in the time frame a breeder gives, you need to add a week or 2.




ohhh, ok, i see.  so, veg'n under T5s and flowering under HIDs will work ok?

yes, i know now about the additional 2 weeks :-/  as i'm in my 5th week of flowering my first batch of clones right now.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 13, 2010)

surreptitious said:
			
		

> ohhh, ok, i see.  so, veg'n under T5s and flowering under HIDs will work ok?



That is what I do.  I have 2 400W MH that I do not use anymore because I like my T5 sooooooo much for vegging.  I flower with 2 600W HPS.


----------



## The Effen Gee (Jan 13, 2010)

RAR. said:
			
		

> Hey supper how will the 2700k t5 HO do for the flowering stage?


 
Not good at all.

Get a 600 or a 400 hps at the very least.


----------



## DonJones (Jan 13, 2010)

RAR,

NEVER blindly use ANYONE'S system or numbers in hydro.  Before you top off your reservoir, ALWAYS check the PH and PPMs first.  While THG is very correct that you don't know which nutrient has been absorbed to change the ppm, it will give you some idea of what is going on.  For example, if the ppms go down significantly, then you need to either add nutrients or change the reservoir out with new nutrients, which ever you choose, and if the ppms go way up, then you need to replace the H2O without any nutrients or change out the reservoir.

As to the issue of adjusting PH of the added solution or adjusting the entire reservoir, check with your nutrient manufacturer.  Some nutrients are designed to control the PH and trying to mess with it before hand will be a hassle, where as some of them do NOT control it at also it makes no real difference when you do it.   Personally I always use PHed water to stsart with and then adjust according ot the nutrients.

Great smoking.


----------



## DonJones (Jan 13, 2010)

RAR,

I'mstill ocnfused about your fogger.  Your pictures look more like a NFT system than a DWC and I don't see any fogger or even a place to use one.

Please explain where the fogger is in the pictures and just exactly what it does and how it does it.

I'm always curious, especially when someone posts about some thing totally new to me.

Thanks for helping me learn more.  *Your pictures show a really impressive looking system.*  I'm surprised that you're having problems with that of a sophisticated system.

Great smoking.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 14, 2010)

Hey Don this will be a link for you tube, I pretty much went off this guys fogger design idea and adapted it to my set up. He has some pretty good diy you tube videos for generic stuff. www.youtube.com/watch?v=brvJ2fGXusU[/url]  take a look and this might clear up some questions. No this person is not me LOL. Or if this link doesnt work type in (diy aeroponics fogger) when you get into the you tube search engine, it has quite a few hits.


----------



## DonJones (Jan 15, 2010)

RAR,

I watched the video and actually think I have more questions that before, but I at least know who to get the FOG into the chamber.  

Before I get into a bunch of questions that may not be needed, when he talks about water into the nebulizer, is he talking about water or nutrient solution? 

 Does the fogger just humidify the  chamber and some kind of sprayer/mister system provide the nutrient solution?

What are the little tubes running along the length of the chamber with drops into the chamber between each plant for?


Thanks.

Great smoking.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 15, 2010)

The tubes are top feed drip emitters. They drip oxygeniated water into the 3" net pots. The upper containment chamber is just flooded with nutrient solution inwhich a nebulizer creates the fog. Each long tube which houses the net pots has a 90deg connector. The mist then flows down the 90,s into each grow chamber creating a very humid/oxygeniated grow chamber. My fogger containment has a 1/4" input water line. The black line is half inch sealtight which is a over flow so the fogger chamber is always flooded. The nebulizer uses the same nutrient enriched water which is inthe res. The res has 8 misters and a airstone to keep everything enriched. I added my own twist to the design. My fogger attachment is on the down hillside. That's the first design flaw. It should of been on the up hill side so the mist could flow down hill. I am going to change that soon. Hope this helps a little.


----------



## DonJones (Jan 16, 2010)

Do all "fogger aero" systems use drip too?

Have you tried using a similar system with just the drips but no fogger?  How much improvement in yield and/or quality have you exerpienced and in comparison to what system?

Thanks for your patience help.

Great smoking everyone.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 16, 2010)

Well, no advice as of yet to wether or not the fogger is a help or waste of time. I can take the fogger off and cap the 3" holes with blanks and run without to get a comparisson. I am using dwc,s with top feed drip emitters air stones and I placed a small water pump with a manifold and 90deg misters In my dwcs, I carefully studied your diy dwc post, it clariefied alot of fill in the blanks. I would like to see a diy post with a main resivor chamber like the water farm feeding multiple hydro/dwcs systems. I am going to have to do some indoor hydro gurriella growing to camoflauge the mj. My idea is to use hemp goddess scrog in the very back of tent, and keep some garden veg up in front of hydro. To much of a risk with preteens running around LOL to have a full tent going.


----------



## DonJones (Jan 17, 2010)

RAR,

A suggestion, with the family make up you refer to, I would install a good dead bolt on the room the tent is set up in and carry the only key.  Then put the fear of RAR in them if ANY of their friends ever find out that you have a garden growing in there.  Orchids have been good cover explaining why you are so protective of what is in the room for some in the past because Orchids are known for being so fragile to any disturbances in their environment.

If I understand your system, you are growing using a drip system over top of a DWC with the roots submerged in the tubes, but how much of the tube will be full of the solution?

Also, aren't the tubes 4" x 4"?  That means the net pots are 3" or smaller right?  Won't 3" pots seriously limit the size of plants you can grow? What are you going to do when the root mass fills up the entire tube and neither the solution nor the fog is going to drain past/through them?  These are questions that my local hydro shop posed to me when I talked to him about the system and I had no answers.

He suggested using the largest post/tube you could find, which I believe are some where around 8" to 10" square,and 6" pots.  He suggested using drip emitters on top of the media, which I think is what you are doing, because they are easier to monitor than misters or sprayers inside the tube. 

He also recommended letting the nutrient solution drain down the square tubes and from there back into a reservoir rather than letting it stand in the tubes like a DWC would.  

Any comments anyone?

On the waterfarm/hydro systems using separate containers and a central controlling reservoir,  I don't think any one is DIYing that system here -- at least I haven't heard of it, but I think someone commented in my thread that they were using General Hydro's multi bucket system and they could probably provide information on how that works.  

Another thing might be to go to GH's website and download their owner's manual for the multi bucket system and study how they use the central control reservoir. Here is the URL hxxp://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/instructions/GH_Controller_inst.pdf for their instruction sheet for their 8 bucket control, which could be used with any number of containers with the addition or subtraction of plumbing.

Good growing asnd even better smoking.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Jan 17, 2010)

My best friend grew killer 3' plants with a 3" net pot with a drip system...I don't know crap about hydro, but what I watched him and a few other friends do...he had like a 30 gallon rubbermaid tub with several 3" net pots in the lid of it.  I think he had 6 grow sites on the one small system, the roots all sat in the 30 gallon tub, and they were fed by a constant drip.  So I know that 3" net pots work.  he would have only been able to get a couple plants in this system if he used 6" or 8" net pots.


----------



## DonJones (Jan 17, 2010)

legalize freedom,

So you're saying that 3 6" pots in the 10 gallon coolers might work?

Thank you.

Great smoking.


----------



## RAR. (Jan 17, 2010)

Yep will agree, should have used the 6 x 6. Also the drip emitters do drain into the main res, it's hard to see the down hill slope. This little system was a mad science experiment LOL. I am really pushing the enevelope with space in the hydro tubes,just to see what can be acheived. Im also pushing the lights as well. It's been 28 days now and there is lots of green bushy plants everywhere. If you compare the root mass to say tomatoes will mj be larger or   smaller? I agree with the lock.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Jan 18, 2010)

Don...I'm the wrong person to ask anything about hydro systems, I have never run them, any experience I have with them are based solely on watching a few friends with their systems.  With that being said, I don't see why you couldn't use (3) 6" net pots, but you could also use (6) 3" net pots to get the most out of your space.

RAR...I'm not certain, but I belive that tomato's and mj are very close to the same in root structure...but please DON'T take my word for it!  I know the system my friend was running, that sounds and looks similar to yours, had plenty of room for his root systems.  He also ran a fogger in his res...unfortunately he is no longer with us or I would give him a call...god I wish I could!  Good Luck on your veggies bud!


----------

