# Rapid deterioration of color and leaf for Kush plants



## tastyness (Jul 27, 2012)

Problem has gotten much worse over the past 3 days as you can see by the photos. 

Plants are about 22" tall, lights in room were rearranged recently.  This plant was near edge before and now nearer to 1000W HPS. I don't think the lamp is any closer now than before.  57 days old, Kush from seed, 2.5 gallon pots, veggie phase.  They are in dirt with a bit of coir, wormcasting dressing on the top.  It is "garden soil with some unknown nutrients added mixed with perlite and a little vermiculite.  There are two ballasts in the room - one dig / one analog.

Nutrients: SuperGrow - 10-10-2 and mag via epsom salts.  Last feeding 2 days ago.  Before that I was misting with the mag until feeding time.  Water was 6.2  with PH pen. 

CFM fan running, off 15 min for every hour.   Have Oscillating fan but has not been running for past 36 hours. 

Temp ave low 70° (73-75) and jumps up to around 80 when the fan is off.  Humidity is low at around 50%.  

 I water when dry usually every 2-3 days with water that has been sitting out for 24 hours and a little rain water mixed in.  


Symptom:  Plant had gorgeous healthy leaves.  Then I think I ran into a little Mag problem because it happened a bit to another plant (the blueberry) which is the same age.  None of the younger plants are showing this problem (yet).

They look kind of ruffley (is that a word) kind of crinkly.  Top of plant is really really dark green when I pull it out into normal light.  Under the HPS the damaged leaves look really yellow.  

They are due for a watering today.  I'm planning on adding Mag again but wanted to check in before I make it worse.  

Sorry for the fuzzy pictures- just rolled out of bed and can't seem to hold the camera as steady as usual.  Also color doesn't show the dark green tops.  

Last two pics are from 3 days ago so you can see how quickly this is going downhill. 

Let me know if you need any more information- Thanks as always for the experienced growers and their patience with us total noobs.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jul 27, 2012)

I'll start off with recommending that you run your exhaust fan (how many cfms?) all the time.  The oscillating fan also needs to be run all the time.  However, I do not believe this is contributing to your problems, but it is just a good practice.

The crinkly leaves make me think pH.  I would recommend that you get a real pH meter of some kind.  IMO, those with the 2 prongs are worse than nothing.  They are NEVER right, however those using them trust them.  I would like to see you measuring the pH of your runoff.  Even an inexpensive test kit with papers will be better, however, the color gradations are really not accurate enough for growing, IMO.  Adding line to your soil helps with pH problems.  This is a product used worldwide anywhere they grow things.  I think you could probably find it.  

I have some concerns about your fertilizer, too.  You are using a fertilizer high in nitrogen and phosphate and low in potassium--almost the opposite of what you should probably be feeding them.   MJ grow formulas are generally highest in potassium, next come nitrogen and phosphate is the lowest.  For example GH Flora Nova Grow (a stand alone nutrient) is 7-4-10.

Try keeping them moist and not letting them dry out between waterings.  I have plants in 3 gal pots and I have to water everyday.


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## tastyness (Jul 27, 2012)

THG,
I've got the two prong one which I thought would be good for the soil.  
I'm not using a prong one for PH for water.  Have a digital pen that I calibrated.  If I want to use the pen to get a good PH on soil how do I do that?  Mix some dirt with neutral water and then check would be my guess.

I bought this fert at my local grow shop- have the bloom for next stage.  
I was just looking for something from guano based.  I'll take a look at what else they have ASAP.

Can I still add lime now?  How would I go about it?  I think I've read that dolomite lime can be dissolved in water and added?

I'll measure run off when I water today.


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## tastyness (Jul 27, 2012)

I've been turning the fan off briefly to help keep temperature up.  Otherwise I was down in the high 60's.  
They've got what you use- so I'll hop on that right away.
Do you think I should veg them a bit longer since they haven't really gotten the proper nutrition?


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## tastyness (Jul 27, 2012)

OK - went out and grabbed some food till my order arrives with the GH nutes.
Liquid Plant food concentrate flower & fruit.
Says regular rate 5 ml per 2 L and occasional rate 10 ml per 2 L.

Says it is 6.2 N - 3.0 P and 10.0 K.
Thinking that should help a bit. 

Also a little Mg, Mn and Fe.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jul 28, 2012)

That looks like a better N-P-K ratio for vegging.  I think I would let them get a little healthier before I put them into flowering.  See if you can get them to perk up their leaves some.


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## Hushpuppy (Jul 29, 2012)

Just a note of advice. When you go to test the soil PH, get the water ready and check it for PH and make a note of it. Then water the plants on something that is very clean so that you can catch a good cup of run-off to test. See what the PH is AND compare it to what the water going in is. If the water going in is 6.5 and coming out is 5.5 then the soil is very acidic to the point that it is bringing down the 6.5 which means it is actually more acidic than is being measured. The same could be happening in reverse also where instead of it being too acidic, it is too alkaline. 

You may want to flush the soil first before adding anymore nutrients as it looks like the nitrogen is being locked out by a PH issue or even an overnute issue, and adding nutes would just complicate rather than correct the problem. I personally would check the PH then flush the soil real good (use 3x the volume of water as you have soil. So use 7gallons of straight water per pot to flush out the chemicals in it, then test the last cup of run-off to see where the PH is. Then add nutes back to the plant. 

You can also dig up the top layer of soil (just a half inch or so) from the pots if the roots aren't up there and add some lime to that soil and put back on top of the pots. Then every time you water, it will disolve further into the soil. I am not a soil expert by any stretch of the imagination so if any soil peeps here see where I am saying anything wrong, speak up so that we can get our friend back on track


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## tastyness (Jul 30, 2012)

Hushpuppy- thanks for explaining that.  Do I do it with each plant?  And test each one?  
They got fed today with the new stuff- at 1/2 strength. 
They seem happier now.  Will post picks shortly.

THG- I am going to wait some based on the advice I've gotten hear.  I believe there is no point in asking experts for advice and then ignoring it.  

Luckily the autos will love the extra time so it is all good. Besides when they go to 12/12 I think I'll be suffering a little separation anxiety.  a whole half a day without checking in on my girls?  uh oh! 
Still worried about the Kushies- but let's see how they respond to today.  I also moved them under the lights today.  
It is like a lush jungle in my tent and I love all their unique personalities. 
Thanks for the help everyone- there is no way I could do this without you all.
~t~


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## Hushpuppy (Jul 31, 2012)

Yeah, I would check every plant to see where they are. If you knew for sure that the soil mix is exactly identical for each plant then you could get away with checking only one or two, but since that is unlikely, I would check all of them. Of course, you will only have to check the water that you add 1 time unless it is new water every time (but if it is coming out of the same place then it should be the same PH. I would check the water PH first and write it down then water each plant and check PH 1 at a time so as not to get confused. I used to keep a log book on everything I did so that I could go back and see what I did different over time and if I have a problem, see what I did for it in the past.


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## tastyness (Jul 31, 2012)

So this only seems to be affecting this strain (2 plants) - the Blue that is the same age, had a bit of the same problem but it has cleared up (i.e. - not spread or gotten worse) Everyone else in tent is healthy (and 3 weeks younger)

On these plants we don't seem to be moving in any direction. 
It almost feels like they are rootbound.... but I was planning on finishing in the containers they are in.  2.8G bucket/ #18 bag.

New growth is healthy but still variegated a bit with light/darker green stripes.
Pictures with and without flash trying to show actual color of plant.

First 4 are K1/ Rest are K2
They got new nutes 2 days ago and some water with 1/2 strength mag yesterday.


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## tastyness (Jul 31, 2012)

Would nitrogen lock out cause plants to be dark, dark green or is it light light green when they can't get enough nitrogen?  
Hushpuppy- that means I need to pH 100 litres of water right to do every plant I have.  Or were you saying simply check these two sick ones?

Roots are growing right up to top of soil under the hydroton balls, so I don't think I want to be digging in there.  Is there some way to get the lime in via watering?


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 31, 2012)

I don't think they're locked out . . . just still in recovery from mag deficiency.  These were the two older plants, and therefore had more of a problem developed before you brought out the epsom salts.

The dark green in the veins and lighter green of the internodal tissue most likely just means that the leaves have good chlorophyll levels available, but are still getting it spread to all the tissues.  These appear to me to be recovering.

I would give these two big ones a full strengh nute feeding with epsom again, and with pH at 6.5 . . . as mentioned, the yellow/necrotic leaves have lost most of their chlorophyll and probably will not recover much . . . they may even continue to deteriorate . . . but they're low and so that's no worry . . . watch the dark green/light green ones, most likely they are the ones that will continue to recover and adopt the darker color more evenly.

These two may also be approaching rootbound . . . might wanna consider getting em in 3 gal nursery pots


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## tastyness (Jul 31, 2012)

Dan-
OK they are due for food tomorrow.  If I've read correctly I just leave those big yellow fan leaves on - no matter how tempted I am to pull them off. 

I was hoping these pots would take me all the way to the end- I'll take a look and see what I can find.  I'm hoping I don't have to transplant the rest of the girls as well, I know HL grows in smaller pots and seems to do OK. 

You are right - these are the older ones and I'm hoping we've worked out the problem so it won't get all the younger ones.


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 31, 2012)

If they're all yellowed out/necrotic and at the bottom of the plant (first 2-3 nodes up the main stem), there's no harm in cutting em off . . . they're not providing energy to the plant, so removing em will allow a bit more light down to the low branches . . . and it will make you feel a bit better about their health

Just continue to observe the dark green/light green ones - this is where I think you'll see continued improvement and healing . . . mine did

I put mine into 3 gal pots when they were 18-20 inches tall, after fim/recovery and about a week before flipping.


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## Hushpuppy (Aug 1, 2012)

I am inclined to agree with Dan at this point that they may be recovering from mag/nute deficiency, but I would still be interested to know what the PH is since you have some significant unkowns with the soil. You will have to adjust the PH of all of the water that you water them with to 6.5 for all future soil growing as that is the best all around level for soil (some plant strains like a little higher, some a little lower but 6.5 is in the middle where the soil can adjust itself with its own chemicals), and I personally would check every plant for PH just to be sure that there is no big problem there. However, if you check the sickest few first and the PH is not way off then the rest are most likely OK.

It looks like you aren't fully utilizing the pots that they are in. I don't know how deep the hydroton is but it looks like a good 1/3 of the top of the pot is unutilized. I would have had the soil maxed out in the pot, right up to within 1/2" of the top. It may serve you to repot these with some good quality organic soil and you could mix in the lime with that soil before setting the plants in the new pots.


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## tastyness (Aug 1, 2012)

Hushpuppy-
So the water/nutes going in today was 5.8 and water out was about 6.6.  This was pretty consistent across all the plants (both sickly and healthy).  I have noticed this leaf color change spreading to one of the newer plants (WCD2)- but only one leaf.
Hydroton is about 1.5 levels deep - meaning mostly right on the soil.  
Neither my local "big box store" nor garden center have organic soil.  What I'm using has some nutrients but they are not listed on bag.  Manufacturer site says "formula varies depending on where it is made".  I know- not very helpful.  
Should I repot to larger containers? Don't really want to buy new stuff, but the black bags aren't too pricey, I might be able to find the big ones.  Or could I use what I have and fill them up more and put them right back where they were?  Or just top them with some fresh soil with some lime.
How much stress will this cause?  How much time would I have to add onto the veg cycle if I transplant now?
Sorry to pummel you with 20 questions....


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## tastyness (Aug 2, 2012)

Darn- didn't realize I somehow got the wrong pH number in my head.  They probably didn't benefit at all from the feeding/mag I gave them yesterday because pH was too low.  
I've written it on my board  6.5.... that is what I want once the nutes are in and mixed.  
Soil would appear to be a bit alkaline from my results above.  
That's probably why I have one of the young plants suddenly showing the same deficiencies.
Still can't find cal/mag for sale anywhere.     Should I be worried about only using epsom salts for now?  Can they be harmed with too much magnesium?
Thank goodness plants are resilient and forgiving.


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## ShOrTbUs (Aug 3, 2012)

if your nutes are going in at 5.8 and coming out at 6.6, i'd say your soil ph is prolly above 7. which points to lock out. seems like the ph of your soil is too high. not allowing for proper uptake(possibly locking out the mg). i dunno how to get the ph in soil down, i'm a hydroman myself. i'll take a crack at it anyway. ph plain water to 6.5 and flush till runoff is 6.5 as well? if i'm wrong i'm sure someone will correct me


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## ozzydiodude (Aug 3, 2012)

get some *Dolomite Lime* take 2 or 3 tbs and mix into a gallon of water shake it til the dolomite lime is just about completely dissolved water you plants this will add calcium and magnesium to you soil and the plant will be able to take up the mag/cal a little quicker.
hMPp://www.homedepot.com/buy/outdoors-garden-center-landscaping-supplies-soil-soil-amendments-soil-amendments/lilly-miller-soil-sweet-40-lb-dolomite-lime-154655.html#.UBtOR2F8Dz4


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## tastyness (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks ShOrTbUs and ozzy.  
I'll get that first thing tomorrow- they are due for water.  
I thought I might need hydrated lime- so thanks for clearing that up.


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## tastyness (Aug 3, 2012)

Notice how new growth looks a bit munched on.
I've looked everywhere and don't see any critters.  
Any ideas what might be causing this?


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## astrobud (Aug 11, 2012)

looks like something is having lunch have you checked the under side of the leaves and the stalk real good with a mag glass


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## Hushpuppy (Aug 11, 2012)

That almost looks more torn than nibbled on. Have they been in strong fan wind, or have you recently moved them around a good bit?  However you could have certain bugs that eat along the edges of the leaves. You need to take a good look underneath all of the leaves for catapillars or flying nibblers. Sometimes you can gently shake the plants and any flying critters will fly out. There are some yellow sticky pads that you can get to put in the space with the plants and any flying critters will land on them and stick. I use them to tell me if, what, and how many critters are in the plants. They are called "sensor cards", here is the URL to them where I buy them: http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/sensor-3x5-insect-trapping-cards-48pack-p-2220.html  They work really well as the bright yellow attracts like flowers, and they are very sticky which holds the critters. You can hang them or lay them down on the soil under the plant(which is what I do to nab fungus gnats)

Did you get the PH issue straight? I meant to check back after I came home from vacation but forgot.


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## Dan K. Liberty (Aug 11, 2012)

I've got some small clones in one gallon pots that are on a platform up off the floor about 5 feet . . . last nite I was shaking the stems a bit, and a huge cricket jumped out of one of the pots !!  What the . . . 

something hasta be munching them . . . find it and make it *DIE !! *

jm2c :48:


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