# Comparing hid to led lights



## Surfer Joe

What would be the equivalent to a 400 w  MH and a 600 w HPS light when using led light fixtures?
I like the idea that you can position the lights on top and also around the plants to get better lighting on the side branches, but I don't know how the light intensities compare and what types of led lights would give me the same sort of light amount when vegging at 400w MH and flowering at 600w HPS, and would I see a significant drop in electricity costs by switching?
Thanks for any advice.


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## WeedHopper

Wish i could help you my friend but i know nothing about LED Grow Lights.


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## The Hemp Goddess

I am not thrilled with my LEDs.  I am running 700W of LED in a closet that I previously ran a 1000W HPS.  I am not giving up on them yet, but...The LED seem to take longer to flower and I am not getting the yield that I do with HPS.  They do seem to have more trichs, but I am not sure if the longer flowering and the lower yield offsets the lower electrical cost.


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## WeedHopper

You know THG,,,out of all the Led grows ive seen,,I have yet to see Buds as big as what ive seen with HPS.  Yes ivd seen nice wet buds,,,but never thd size ive seen with HPS,,,as a matter of fact my T5 grows turned out bigger buds then what SOME ive seen with LEDS. And im not saying they wont or cant,,im just saying i havent seen buds from LEDS the size of the monsters  ive seen done with HPS. and dont none of my frinds that grow with Leds get mad at Weedhopper. I personally think LEDS are an awesome light source, ,,and im sure someone is gonna prove me wrong. Which is cool with me.


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## Smokeaholic

Personally do not buy led lights.Make your own to the spec you need them at its cheaper and you get true wattage instead of half if not less then whats stated. All it takes is simple know how of wiring, soldering, and some patience when laying down the leds with thermal paste and a lil super glue on the sides you can make a true 1000w led panel for around 300-600 depending on the lights used. So unless you feel like blowing money on leds or crafting your own, go with the hid rigs.Also with leds its almost a must to scrog because of the less potent light penetration.


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## Surfer Joe

Smokeaholic said:


> Also with leds its almost a must to scrog because of the less potent light penetration.



Thanks. I had thought that the usefulness of led was that you could place panels on top and around the sides to get better light to the side branches.
At the moment, they're out of my price range anyway, unless the offset in electricity costs would recoup the difference in cost.


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## WeedHopper

My understanding is that Leds can NOT be placed to close the canopy because it will burn or bleach the plant.


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## Hushpuppy

I must say that I don't like LED technology for growing. I believe the whole problem with the LED technology is that it doesn't produce enough photons of light so it has to be focused to get the highest amount of photons to hit and be absorbed by the plants. The HPS does this much more efficiently (for the plant) which is why more yield is able to be had. LED technology still isn't there yet. IMHO
But with any lights, you have to learn their energy balance, sweet spot. The LEDs do have to be held back farther from the plants because of the intensity of the narrow beam of each LED. That is a whole different method of growing when using LED lighting, and for someone just taking off, especially going into a semi-commercial operation, I wouldn't recommend doing it. The T5 Floros and HPS lights are very straight forward and plenty of high quality bud is grown under them. Again, JMO


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## WeedHopper

:yeahthat:


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## Smokeaholic

WeedHopper said:


> My understanding is that Leds can NOT be placed to close the canopy because it will burn or bleach the plant.



Only the ones with IR and UV diodes in it cant be placed close to the top so if you get leds go with only warm white, white, red, and blue leds you can place them closer but not to close the narrow beams will still bleach at id say <4" or so inchs from the canopy. If you go the led route do COBs so you can get closer because they have lenses on them it helps defuse the beam.


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## Grower13

I know someone who pulled .8 grams per watt with 10 inches of penetration with a mars pro model........ but it looks like the new illumitex light is gonna be the LED....... they're running the light at 18 inches off the canopy during veg.


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## orangesunshine

just look around you---fed outlawed incandescent light bulbs---although i only grew 1 full cycle with 1 type of light---i believe i gave them a fair shake---they don't fit into my goals for a successful harvest---although many peeps love them, are growing great herb, saving $$$, all of it---guess my measuring standards a just a bit different---whether i need to improve my skill set or the technology just isn't there yet---i now stick with what i am familiar and have had some success with---that is the HPS for flower and the T5 blues for veg---green mojo to you LED trail blazers :watchplant:


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## Smokeaholic

Grower13 said:


> it looks like the new illumitex light is gonna be the LED



Over priced, those cobs are 10 watt diodes being driving at 6.2 watts but idk once you start to figure out how to make them you just cant look at them the same anymore I guess. I still havent grown with them yet I just know the prices and such of the individual parts. Those 10 watt cobs run anywhere from $1-4, the heat sinks run anywhere from 15-30 depending on supplier which I bet you is heatsinkusa, and the led drivers come in anywhere from 15-30 a piece for a 100 watt only 540 watts for 1.3-1.5k. To be honest yes they are great products from what i can see but not 1.5k great. Btw I'm talking about the Illumitex NeoSol DS LED. I think I might be destroying the led grow light makers profit margins once people realize how much they are being ripped a new one. The hps and mh rigs are making way less of a profit margin than leds and they are selling like hot cakes well both technologies are but at least the hid rigs you get more bang per buck.


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## Growdude

I've questioned there ability to grow the true big buds and there negligible power saving for years, even when everyone  here seemed to be on the PJ bandwagon.


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## sopappy

I miss my HPS and MH, I've never come close with the LEDs but penetration is better, nodes are closer and they feed like crazy. I do NOT miss the temperature hassles, and I wasn't comfortable with them in my basement. I think you can do it safely but not for me.
as for quality.... not me, I'd smoke shake, no connoisseur here
as for yield vs power, tough one if your electricity is cheap


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## Smokeaholic

Growdude said:


> I've questioned there ability to grow the true big buds and there negligible power saving for years, even when everyone  here seemed to be on the PJ bandwagon.


From some of the videos I've seen yes they can grow big buds but not like hps can as in  the amount of monster buds per grow and as with there power savings figure is all sorts B/S of because 1000 watts is a 1000 watts of consumption no matter how you slice or dice it besides saving on the energy to cool the area. They also dont yield
as good as the best yield i saw for leds was around 1.6 per watt under 240 watts of led power and the best yield on hps is 2.4 grams per watt under 2000 watt hps it was insane on the grow it lasted him 1 and a half years of smoking it and selling it here and there. The taste of it wasn't that great but the high was about like a couch lock syndrome. sadly i never saw any of his equipment in person and he didnt like sharing how he grew either all i know it was hydro.


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## pcduck

Growdude said:


> I've questioned there ability to grow the true big buds and there negligible power saving for years, even when everyone  here seemed to be on the PJ bandwagon.



Ahhh, the good old days, where pj and his posse  would arrive to the forum to bully anyone who said anything negative about their LED's. I remember all to well, being at the end of their tirades. Although there was a spike in sales of LED's from growers on this forum buying and trying them. I wonder if he got a kickback for that? At least our forum members here that tried them are honest and told the real story. I have new found respect for these members.


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## WeedHopper

Yesser Duck i was not liked by my buddie PJ at 1st,,,cause i would not ride the wagon. But i was very cordial to PJ because he was on MP. He did know Leds though...But as i told him and i will say again,,,i never seen buds from his grows as big and dence as the monsters ive seen grown with HPS. His buds looked light and airy, ,,not dence at all. I had bigger buds from my T5 grows and thats a fact.


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## Rosebud

I have a tiny grow going now in the shed with led. They do take longer to finish, i just found out. I didn't know that before. There is more tric production and they do 'feed the plant' but they do not out preform HPS. Totally different animals. My power bill is much lower, but i can grow little boutique beautiful buds with led, but if i didn't have a huge outdoor grow i couldn't grow enough for medicine with led.
 I have my HPS and may use it again.. but for now as a supplement to od, i like mine alright.


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## NorCalHal

growdude said:


> i've questioned there ability to grow the true big buds and there negligible power saving for years, even when everyone here seemed to be on the pj bandwagon.


 

qft


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## P Jammers

PJ this, PJ that. Got me all figured out do ya duck? Quack Quack

Just when you thought you had rid yourself of the guy he returns. Still doing grows for Monkey? Buwhahahaha

hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?t=5&v=dl7BgNcnlBs

Lets test
hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ert3fmYQlk

The results
hxxps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9gdoTO3_kw

Eye opening for a few of you I am sure. 

Enjoy


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## pcduck

I knew you would be back pj. Just like a bad hemroid, popping up and hanging around to cause trouble.:rofl:

At least Monkey has balls and big buds, something you are lacking.:aok:


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## Dr. Green Fang

An admin from this site contacted both PJ and I and asked us to come here to help some people on LED's... and this is how it is in here?! 

What the hell is wrong with you people? PJ bandwagon and hemroids?!!!! Funking LOOK at yourselves for a minute, reflect on the sh!t you said, and maybe suck it up for a minute and think "Oh heck, that was rough" because you're all acting like teenagers in high school. 

Again... admin, from here... asked us to come back and talk LED to some members, and then we stumble into this thread and see this? Well isn't that a fine "how do you do?" 




And this is coming from a guy (myself) that went LED and is now going back HPS.... but all that is irrelevant at this current moment. You members can't talk about sh!t without having to bash someone?? 

I'm disappointed in you guys  



Love, 
DGF from 'the bandwagon'


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## Dr. Green Fang

As for the original question, I would purchase the top brand LED's (Illumitex, BML, Spectrum King) if I did any LED purchases right now. The penetration on the lower and mid end stuff is quite atrocious and the longevity of the diodes in the Mars fixtures seems rather crap. I bought 8 of them and in less than a year all the diodes are blowing out. Which makes almost no sense considering they are 5w diodes being driven roughly 33%. Why would I have exploding diodes and burning on the pcb board? I would assume piss poor soldering and cheap diodes used. To me, the heatsinks looked pretty good...but I'm no pro. 

So, instead of investing about $1,500 - $2,200 on a top LED, I've now gone back to HPS for now as I do not have the initial investment. It was $325 for 1000w Galaxy HPS setup, with Raptor hood (thing is HUGE) and Hortilux bulb. And I bought this at my store just 40 minutes away. Butttttttttt, when I have the investment funds, I will be purchasing some of the BML or Illumitex fixtures by this summer (hopefully) because the increase in terrapins and resination is 100% proven. Both by my own (and many others) experiences and many lab results! As for density, it must be there in the higher end fixtures.. I've seen numbers and various other things from PJ that would make you all poo and question what you know. He may come off a certain way, but PJ is one top class dude with *extensive* knowledge about many things in the industry (not just LED!). For you to all rip him, is just silly, and unfortunately I feel like I will indeed get ripped on as well.  

In closing... I will say one thing. Stay away from M a r s. :aok: 
Oh... and be good to one another! Seriously, we're only here for a blink in time! Some of you ol' fogies should know this, right?


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## Rosebud

ok, I admire the research PJ has done. What are his motives? growing better pot and looking into the future. No need to dump on him. I did ask he and dgf to come back and answer some LED questions that we needed answered.  Thank you both for coming back and I apologize for peeps that don't appreciate that there are lots of ways to grow our herb.

Thank you PJ and dgf for coming when i asked you. I appreciate you both and your education on LED's.


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## Rosebud

I don't think I can ask for their help anymore.  My bad. i thought we were all adults. Now i am in trouble!


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## Dr. Green Fang

Rosebud said:


> I don't think I can ask for their help anymore.  My bad. i thought we were all adults. Now i am in trouble!




You are absolutely not "in trouble" with anything Rose... You're not responsible for the actions and/or mindsets of others.  

Much love Mrs.


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## WeedHopper

:rofl: thanks for answering everybodies guestions.
Glad ya stopped by to get **** going. Nothing like some conversation to get the blood pumping early in the morning. Yehaaaaaaaaa
Sorry Doc,,,,i will now bow to King PJ,,,well not all the way cause i haves a bad back. Lol
Thanks PJ for dropping by and helping us out. Dont be a stranger. Im gonna run out and buy me some LEDS cause i am sold.
And Rose im glad ya asked them to pop over,,,i love a little fun this early in the morning. Keeps me from being bored.
And not agreeing with someone doesnt make us bad ppl. I didnt say a damn thing mean to or about PJ.  I have always been cordial to PJ. Even sent ppl to him that had questions. I will continue to mess with PJ cause i like to have a little fun. Course he aint been around for me to mess with till now. Yehaaaaaaaaa
Oh and whats up with the Monkey thing?  Did i miss something? I knew Monkeys had went into space,,,but i did not know they could grow weed. He he
Dont say it,,,dont,,say ,,it,,,. I know if Weedhopper can grow a Monkey damn sure can.:rofl:


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## NorCalHal

If LED's are the best lights....why does no one run them professionally? Sure, you can find a couple of vids out there with guys doing "testing" to prove that their sponsors LED fixtures are the "best". BTW...those results are completely false. We have been smashing 3 lb/s per DE. With numbers like that...electrical costs are not a worry.

You talked a BIG game PJ...only to have a lot of folks who fell for your marketing skillz go back to HPS. If they ever went to DE's..they would be pissed you led them to LED's.

Keep on marketing my friend. 

Again..LED's have their place.....lighting my kitchen, not in my growroom.


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## WeedHopper

Now whos gonna call NCH a liar. He knows his ****,,,and has proof that nobody growing to get the biggest bang for thier buck is using LEDS,,period. Glad to see someone with real experience telling the truth instead of blowing smoke up ppls ***.
And im not just talking about PJ. I have seen Monsters grown ith those DEs,,so why would anybody use LEDS that CANNOT compare with those results no matter how you paint it.
Can you grow Bud with LEDS,,,of course. You can grow bud with CFLs And T5s,,but they do NOT compare with HIDs. But to each his own. Its your money and your time,,do what your comfortable with,,but dont make rediculous claims. Personally i love LEDS for lighting my house and my Smart TV, and they make great Flashlights. And maybe someday they will be able to catch up with DEs,,but they have along ways to go. And that is a FACT.


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## NorCalHal

I live in the biggest Marijuana market in the world. More indoor  grown around me in a 100 mile radius then in any other place. It is of the utmost importance to grow the best and the biggest yields in order to survive.

If there was ANY tech that helped improve yield/quality there is no question that those items would be in place in commercial rooms. Cost does not matter...If cost was an issue, you are in the wrong game.

I give PJ hella credit tho. He made me look into PAR light as a better source of lighting for MJ. DE's just happen to be better at a bigger scale, and there is no refuting that.

To say that LED is the best and only light to grow the best MJ is just a falsehood. 

Don't cry for PJ...he is a big boy and has slammed many a member for not agreeing with him. Even his fanboys are going back to HPS, which is not the way to go really.....


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## Rosebud

I just wonder where all this angst comes from. I don't get it. It isn't as though pj, you invented led....i don't understand the misplaced passion.

Thank you for stopping in NCH, ALWAYS a pleasure. We need the truth here and maybe everyone has a different truth.   Keep up the good work doood.


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## orangesunshine

good to see NCH in the house---loads of questions---what is the big deal about double ended lighting---i need to go on a field trip to bone up with some knowledge---hope you're well


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## NorCalHal

DE's are just outstanding. I have been growing a long time and have not seen any tech that has made such an impact on quality/quantity as DE bulbs.

Yes...they run hot. but I was able to replace 5 traditional HPS with 3 DE's and improve my yield. The plants love it.

They are not for everyone. You must control the heat, which any good grower can do. I suspect you could run a DE at 600w and get great yields and lower heat.


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## NorCalHal

Dr. Green Fang said:


> I will be purchasing some of the BML or Illumitex fixtures by this summer (hopefully) because the increase in terrapins and resination is 100% proven. Both by my own (and many others) experiences and many lab results! As for density, it must be there in the higher end fixtures.. I've seen numbers and various other things from PJ that would make you all poo and question what you know.


 

Another falsehood. terp production relates directly to heat. LED's produce less heat...more terps.

If you control heat..DE's smash LED terp and resin production...along with other forms of opening stomata and plant uptake. 
Light is only one small part of producing dank.

Testing is another farce that is a great marketing tool. Believe what you want, but as of right now...ALL testing is **. Take a sample to 5 different "testing" facilities and see the variance in results.

That LED's produce better herb is an outright lie, said by folks that don't know any better.


BTW...you know how many buyers ask about Terp numbers and resin count....Zero. Ever.

Welcome to the jungle


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## orangesunshine

NorCalHal said:


> DE's are just outstanding. I have been growing a long time and have not seen any tech that has made such an impact on quality/quantity as DE bulbs.
> 
> Yes...they run hot. but I was able to replace 5 traditional HPS with 3 DE's and improve my yield. The plants love it.
> 
> They are not for everyone. You must control the heat, which any good grower can do. I suspect you could run a DE at 600w and get great yields and lower heat.



awesome 3 DE to replace 5---that's a pretty good selling point---improved yields is another---why does it seem i only see hoods a fraction of the size of a good 8" traditional hps


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## ston-loc

No one runs LED commercially? Well I'm not getting in ya'lls pissing match. But that is a false statement 

View attachment image.png


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## umbra

been watching and reading...ston, how big is commercial? Maybe it is different for different people. Your photos are limited to what can be seen. I mean, I don't see a 10,000 sq.ft. warehouse filled with LEDs. I don't see final flower size or weight per light. Not trying to pick any fights with anyone. NCH says 3lbs per light...where are you? NCH is currently running 98 double ended gravitas. How many LED panels are you running?


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## superman

Not to stir up a stink, but I use LEDs and love them. I use HPS and they work great as well. But I don't have to change the bulbs every 6 to 12 months with LEDs.
  LEDs with the right spectrums are just as, or more productive, watt for watt than HIDs. Another mistake people make is buying a single powerful unit and trying to get even uniform coverage. Multiple smaller units spread over the same area will give better coverage and allow the lights to be kept closer.
  Believe me, I've bleached a few buds getting them too close to my Lumigrow 325s and 650. I had to learn it wasn't an issue of heat, like the HPS, it was light intensity that caused the problems.
  But my newer arrays which are 3' x 4' and 550 watts each can be kept within inches with no problems. 
  And my plants finish a good week sooner under the LEDs. That's one of the biggest reasons I use them. Just my experience.
 Peace, Superman


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## ston-loc

It's not my grow umbra. It is a dispensary grow in SF that a friend works at. Can't give you the details on it, but just the blanket statement that they aren't being used in large operations is false. This is a large warehouse operation using BML fixtures.


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## WeedHopper

Yes,,but are you pulling 3 pounds per Light?


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## NorCalHal

ston-loc said:


> No one runs LED commercially? Well I'm not getting in ya'lls pissing match. But that is a false statement


 

That is a very inefficient grow...for many reasons other then the LED's.
It is probably from the 1450 defunct Marijuana cultivation businesses that failed in Colorado last year.

Yes..Co had 1900 licensed cultivation companies start up since legalization...1450 have been put out of business. Commercial growing is harder then ANYONE thinks.


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## umbra

Yes it is!


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## NorCalHal

ston-loc said:


> It's not my grow umbra. It is a dispensary grow in SF that a friend works at. Can't give you the details on it, but just the blanket statement that they aren't being used in large operations is false. This is a large warehouse operation using BML fixtures.


 

Haha...I posted before I read this.

Again...very inefficient grow imho. Believe...just because a dispensary runs a grow doesn't mean they know what they are doing and producing lb's of Dank.

I take my statement back Sir...you found 1 "pro" grow that uses LED's.
I can show you 100 to one that don't use LED. Maybe the other 99 of us are crazy.


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## NorCalHal

superman said:


> Not to stir up a stink, but I use LEDs and love them. I use HPS and they work great as well. But I don't have to change the bulbs every 6 to 12 months with LEDs.
> LEDs with the right spectrums are just as, or more productive, watt for watt than HIDs. Another mistake people make is buying a single powerful unit and trying to get even uniform coverage. Multiple smaller units spread over the same area will give better coverage and allow the lights to be kept closer.
> Believe me, I've bleached a few buds getting them too close to my Lumigrow 325s and 650. I had to learn it wasn't an issue of heat, like the HPS, it was light intensity that caused the problems.
> But my newer arrays which are 3' x 4' and 550 watts each can be kept within inches with no problems.
> And my plants finish a good week sooner under the LEDs. That's one of the biggest reasons I use them. Just my experience.
> Peace, Superman


 

I do agree that LED's can grow some great herb. I just think that they are not the way to go commercially. I cover a 5' x 20' table with 3 1000w DE's.

And yes...I have to change my bulb AND hood every 12 months at a cost of $110.


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## my my

Hal, Why are you changing the hoods? 
I understand about the bulbs, but the hood confuses me?


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## NorCalHal

Gavita recommends that you change the hood on their units every year. The heat degrades them and they lose reflectivity.

They are only like $15, so not a big issue, real easy to change.


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## superman

NorCalHal said:


> I do agree that LED's can grow some great herb. I just think that they are not the way to go commercially. I cover a 5' x 20' table with 3 1000w DE's.
> 
> And yes...I have to change my bulb AND hood every 12 months at a cost of $110.


  Yeah, commercially, high dollar LEDs are a huge investment in something that 'might' and 'might not' make it long term.
  I believe that most larger grow opps use LEDs, when the use them, as supplemental lighting in large greenhouses. They say they can dial in just what their particular crop wants. Or add to their HIDs for the same effect.
  But the new opps that run nothing but the upper end LEDs have either been around a while and doing very well or, got a great deal on the lighting with an agreement to do the commercials and positive reviews. 
 Just my take on it.
 Peace, Superman


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## my my

Cool, learnt something new today.. 
Thanks Hal.. 




NorCalHal said:


> Gavita recommends that you change the hood on their units every year. The heat degrades them and they lose reflectivity.
> 
> They are only like $15, so not a big issue, real easy to change.


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## hippy59

orangesunshine said:


> just look around you---fed outlawed incandescent light bulbs---although i only grew 1 full cycle with 1 type of light---i believe i gave them a fair shake---they don't fit into my goals for a successful harvest---although many peeps love them, are growing great herb, saving $$$, all of it---guess my measuring standards a just a bit different---whether i need to improve my skill set or the technology just isn't there yet---i now stick with what i am familiar and have had some success with---that is the HPS for flower and the T5 blues for veg---green mojo to you LED trail blazers :watchplant:



how did those T-5 HO bulbs that you bought last year work out? eyelux or whatever they were.


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## orangesunshine

hippy59 said:


> how did those T-5 HO bulbs that you bought last year work out? eyelux or whatever they were.



as recommended by the shop so as not to burn the plants---i put 2 into an 8 bulb T5 light for veg and did not notice any difference---maybe if the bulbs were used in conjunction with a flower spectrum they may have performed a bit better---i wouldn't recommend them for veg


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## Ruffy

to all those whom wonder why people bust pjs chops, its because he is known and disliked. the past will always get ya.
and I hope monkey aint over here, another pollen chucker


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## umbra

Ruffy said:


> to all those whom wonder why people bust pjs chops, its because he is known and disliked. the past will always get ya.
> and I hope monkey aint over here, another pollen chucker



I know 2 monkeys. Monkeymonk840 and [email protected], would you be speaking of either? Neither post here.


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## WeedHopper

A monkey chunking pollin. :rofl:


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## HerbWatcher

weedhopper said:


> now whos gonna call nch a liar. He knows his ****,,,and has proof that nobody growing to get the biggest bang for thier buck is using leds,,period. Glad to see someone with real experience telling the truth instead of blowing smoke up ppls ***.
> And im not just talking about pj. I have seen monsters grown ith those des,,so why would anybody use leds that cannot compare with those results no matter how you paint it.
> Can you grow bud with leds,,,of course. You can grow bud with cfls and t5s,,but they do not compare with hids. But to each his own. Its your money and your time,,do what your comfortable with,,but dont make rediculous claims. Personally i love leds for lighting my house and my smart tv, and they make great flashlights. And maybe someday they will be able to catch up with des,,but they have along ways to go. And that is a fact.


can anyone say kiss ***....................and that is a fact......


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## Keef

Must be nice to have a choice !--- Us Southern Outlaw growers got to hide --Watch our power usage and over our shoulder all the time !--- So I use the Mars 300 !--- Maybe one day we can come out the shadows !-and learn to grow like the big boys --We do the best we can with what we got to work with !-- I get caught with so much as a roach --I go to jail !--


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## AluminumMonster

I'm tired of the "I'm in an outlaw state" argument. If you're willing to go to jail to grow the herb, and every outlaw grower is, you should be willing to relocate to a legal state. You say you have family where you're at? So did I, but let me tell you, I would rather be 14 hours away from family living in Colorado instead of an hour away and in jail! Nobody is forcing you to stay where you are and risk your freedom.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## WeedHopper

HerbWatcher said:


> can anyone say kiss ***....................and that is a fact......



:rofl:

Ouch,,,Internet balls.  Sorry,,didnt mean to get your panies in a wad saying something good about a Forum Member. By the way,,what are you,,, 16? You still live with Mommy?
And you went all the way back to Jan to give me crap,,,you really must be bored.


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## Keef

Be driven from my home without a fight ?--- Sounds kinda chicken sh** to me !---If U stand for nothing U fall for anything !
Bite Me !--


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## AluminumMonster

Keef said:


> Be driven from my home without a fight ?--- Sounds kinda chicken sh** to me !---If U stand for nothing U fall for anything !
> Bite Me !--


No, you're right, jail is much better. 

You can't provide a valid argument for your reason so you jump to insults?
Seems to me like you have some growing up to do.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## Keef

Threat of jail !--Yep !-- Lots of growing up to do -I hope ! --I'm 61 and kicking it  !-- I've never known legal weed !-- Smoked my first joint when Nixon was president !--I survived the Reagan years without getting caught !-- Not really sure about that whole mmj card --put my name on a list stuff !-- I've grown some over the years but back in the day I mostly knew people who wanted weed and people who had weed !-- So I took it from here to there !--For a fee !---We always carried  guns because We always carried cash ! --
Those days are over for me !-- 
I hope to live long enough to smoke a legal joint in my home state !-- I'm old !--I'm pissed off about the law and - I ain't moving !---- 
 Now I would just like to learn to grow something to be proud of !


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## umbra

Well my name may be on a list, and I may pay to grow but...I can grow 99 plants and possess up to 10 lbs of dry bud, legally. Yes I moved, and for me it was the only choice, but there are plenty of folks find that hard to do. So they do what they can....works for me.


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## Keef

True dat Umbra !-- Wasn't giving U a hard time about moving to a free state !--To each his own !!-- I'm happy U can do what U do !-- I intend to see what it feels like to see Texas go legal !-- I guess for me it is a way of being redeemed !-- The paranoia about po-po traps will be hard to shed -- I'll have to learn new ways but to see the law change here !---That sh** gonna make me cry when it happens !-- Been a long time crossing that bridge of sighs !---I gots to make my stand here !


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## umbra

Keef, shedding all the paranoia is still the hardest part of moving to Cali. It feels good. Think I might stay awhile


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## Keef

Gives me hope Umbra ! -- Victory to me will be coming out the end of prohibition here !-- My dream is when that day comes and it will !-- I come out the belly of the beast not only as a survivor but with my Frankenplant -!--- I want them to know that not only did I survive but thrived !---


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## WeedHopper

We cant all up and move to a Legal State to grow or smoke weed,,that is just a ridiculous idea. All my family is here. My children,,my sick Mom,,and many other friends and Family.  I also know PPL who have made a good living for many yrs with Weed in the Lovely Large Hillbilly State of Texas. lol
You cannot put down Brothers who choose to live in an a State that's not yours and not Legal. My Little Brother Keef is sticking it out till something changes in OUR STATE,,one of the Largest in the US. When we go legal,,Texas will kick that ***. But even then I will not expect ppl to move here from there home State or Home. Hell,,I hope they don't. Don't need a bunch of PPL from other places moving here to get what we worked hard to get.


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## WeedHopper

AluminumMonster said:


> I'm tired of the "I'm in an outlaw state" argument. If you're willing to go to jail to grow the herb, and every outlaw grower is, you should be willing to relocate to a legal state. You say you have family where you're at? So did I, but let me tell you, I would rather be 14 hours away from family living in Colorado instead of an hour away and in jail! Nobody is forcing you to stay where you are and risk your freedom.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



What works for you doesn't mean it will work for someone else. Just because YOU are willing to uproot and leave,,doesnt mean its for others who grow weed. Im glad it has worked out for you Bro,,but don't put our Brother Keef down because he is not willing to move to Colorado. And by the way,,you are still an Outlaw according to the FEDS. And if the wrong Person ever gets in office,,you will find that out right quick Little Brother how quickly things change. Then you will have moved and will still be in the same boat. I hope that NEVER happens,,but be careful,,Karma can be real *****.


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## AluminumMonster

As long as you guys are cool with a 3a.m. no knock warrant, your dog's being shot, your kids or wife or whatever you care about being taken away.... no skin off my back.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## WeedHopper

Like i said,,,be carefull, ,the Feds can still be knocking on your door at 3am. You only as legal as the Feds allow you to be.
And i will never be cool with anyone fking with me at 3 in the morning.


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## NorCalHal

HerbWatcher said:


> can anyone say kiss ***....................and that is a fact......


 
Were you directing this at me? Where did this guy come from anyway?


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## AluminumMonster

WeedHopper said:


> Like i said,,,be carefull, ,the Feds can still be knocking on your door at 3am. You only as legal as the Feds allow you to be.
> And i will never be cool with anyone fking with me at 3 in the morning.


I don't have a grow at home right now, just the commercial grow that I don't own, so I'm not worried at all about the feds. As I said before, ain't no skin off my back.

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk


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## WeedHopper

NorCalHal said:


> Were you directing this at me? Where did this guy come from anyway?



No he was talking to me because I was saying something good about you,,,and I have no idea where he came from. Where ever it is,,hope he goes back there and stays. Freaking Asshat went all the way back to a post in January to give me crap.


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## WeedHopper

AluminumMonster said:


> I don't have a grow at home right now, just the commercial grow that I don't own, so I'm not worried at all about the feds. As I said before, ain't no skin off my back.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk



Cool,,no worries then. Your where you want to be working for someone else and Keef is where he wants to be.


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## mrcane

.......Asshat......:rofl:.......W.H......:48:


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## The Hemp Goddess

Moving or not moving is a personal choice.  For me, I know that I will never quit growing cannabis.  And the thought of getting busted far outweighed the reasons for staying where I was.  I would be no good for anybody if I was in jail.  And realistically (we have to be real) I do not believe that Idaho is going to legalize mmj in my lifetime.  I grow not only  for myself, but for several other people with medical issues.  It IS hard to just pick up and move, especially when you are in your mid 60s, own a home, and have a lot of friends.  But all things considered, it was my best choice.  I can sell my house, I can make new friends, but if I am in jail, I have NO choices.  Everybody CAN move if they want to.  Some have decided not to.  That is no reason to bash them...we all have to make our own decisions.


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## sopappy

WeedHopper said:


> Like i said,,,be carefull, ,the Feds can still be knocking on your door at 3am. You only as legal as the Feds allow you to be.
> And i will never be cool with anyone fking with me at 3 in the morning.



I watch a lot of TV and they don't knock. Well, they do, but just the once with that battering ram thing.
As you can tell what me worry? I live alone, I can do the time... I'm 62, heck, I'm looking forward to it, free meals, entertainment, conjugal visits (perfect, they LEAVE)
what's not to like? 
oh yah, the anal rape thing..


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## Keef

Major head injury !-- and I know how to do crazy !-- Plus I was Po-Po once myself ! -- Not only am I not moving --- Come fall one of those Simply"C " Super Critical hash oil extraction MO-sheens be coming to Texas !--- No one around here will ever know it's here !


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