# what is wrong with this setup?



## sopappy (Feb 1, 2018)

I keep the stones around the plug damp and they're up in no time 3-4 days
but they stagnate, just sit there
water is tap water, no nutes
humidity 70, temps 75ish
those are 2 T5HO 24/7

they look over watered if the leaves grow much at all

must be me because different seed sources but heeck, i grew bag seed okay like this but now maybe 2 in 10 keep growing. 

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## bombbudpuffa (Feb 1, 2018)

I really suck at hydro. Wish I could help you.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 1, 2018)

I find it better to put seedlings and clones in a more enclosed air space that I can control. its so easy to over water, under water, over dry them with wind, burn them with hot air pockets under the light, etc. But I would suspect since the humidity is fairly high that they aren't getting over dried from dry wind. I would suspect maybe too warm from the radiant heat of the bulbs (I cant keep my lights too close to my seedlings or they get too warm). 

Your media may also be getting too warm. I have that same issue when I start in cups. The cups and media can get quite warm from the radiant heat as well. I have to keep a fan blowing under them so that the medium stays cool. I use the same kind of plugs but I set mine in coco coir/pearlite. I don't soak any of the medium or plug but rather wet it till its just damp. The coco holds just enough moisture. I use a laser thermometer to check my cups to make sure they don't get above 78f or below 72f.

Not sure how much water the clay pebbles hold but I suspect they may be drying out too much. If/when you lose one, try to immediately pull the plug up and see what the roots look like and how moist or dry the plug and pebbles are below the surface.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 1, 2018)

Ya know after looking back at the pics, I am less inclined to think heat as much as overdrying from the exposed media in the baskets, or if you are watering more to prevent over drying, then you may be drowning them. I cant tell without being there, but I think its one of those. 

This is just my opinion but I would get solo cups and burn a few holes in the bottoms for drainage then use those the same as you use the baskets (with plug and pebbles). then all you will do is keep them damp with very light watering (adjusting for wind and light forced evaporation). Feel the plugs if possible to see if damp. if damp don't water. The solo cups will slow the evaporation that you get in the baskets. Make sure to get the plug down in the pebbles so that it doesn't lose water through the plug edges.


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## zem (Feb 2, 2018)

Place the netpots inside small regular pots and bury the stem and place the lights close and keep the rocks watered. They could be drying between waterings because growrocks dry out fast especially in small exposed volumes like small netpots out in the open ventilated area.


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## Budlight (Feb 2, 2018)

Me myself I would keep those seedlings in the humidity dome or a little bit longer before you transplant them it really does look like they&#8217;re drying out to me get some plastic cups or plastic baggy  that are trans parent and put them over top of the seedlings while they&#8217;re in there to work as a humidity  dome  I bet it Will help


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## Budlight (Feb 2, 2018)

How many times a day are you watering them


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## The Hemp Goddess (Feb 2, 2018)

I used to never transfer my plants to the hydro unit until the plants in the rapid rooters were up and had a lot of roots growing out of the cubes.


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## sopappy (Feb 2, 2018)

all good tips and I am leaning towards over-watering, here they are same as usual, 4 out of 6 up and away but they just stop and die...  I was keeping the tray full of room temp tap water and it wicked up, i see the darkened pebbles around the cube.
This time I left tray empty and just syringe a spray around the cube twice a day.
I don't want to raise the tubes re stretching and I want that cube a tad dryer this time.
next pic will be of the walking dead.... maybe 2 will persevere 

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## sopappy (Feb 2, 2018)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> I used to never transfer my plants to the hydro unit until the plants in the rapid rooters were up and had a lot of roots growing out of the cubes.



I keep them in those pots until they get chopped. Hard on the roots I guees but I just lower them into trays or buckets as they grow.
They never get transplanted.


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## Budlight (Feb 2, 2018)

sopappy said:


> I keep them in those pots until they get chopped. Hard on the roots I guees but I just lower them into trays or buckets as they grow.
> They never get transplanted.



Too much water is definitely the problem you need to have them on a timer that way the table is flooding  and draining  a few times a day at least  with constant water in there the roots are getting no oxygen and drowning in a sense


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## sopappy (Feb 2, 2018)

Budlight said:


> Me myself I would keep those seedlings in the humidity dome or a little bit longer before you transplant them it really does look like theyre drying out to me get some plastic cups or plastic baggy  that are trans parent and put them over top of the seedlings while theyre in there to work as a humidity  dome  I bet it Will help



They are misted 70%
I think I am overdoing it, only I could over-water in a hydro set-up
I have a pic I think, it's like they're cruising in the maid of the mist under niagra falls


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## sopappy (Feb 2, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> Ya know after looking back at the pics, I am less inclined to think heat as much as overdrying from the exposed media in the baskets, or if you are watering more to prevent over drying, then you may be drowning them. I cant tell without being there, but I think its one of those.
> 
> This is just my opinion but I would get solo cups and burn a few holes in the bottoms for drainage then use those the same as you use the baskets (with plug and pebbles). then all you will do is keep them damp with very light watering (adjusting for wind and light forced evaporation). Feel the plugs if possible to see if damp. if damp don't water. The solo cups will slow the evaporation that you get in the baskets. Make sure to get the plug down in the pebbles so that it doesn't lose water through the plug edges.




Drowning them. Yup, i think that's it, those cubes are too soggy
I was starting without the cubes and it was the same story so I'm back to the cubes again figuring it's not the cubes.


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## Budlight (Feb 2, 2018)

sopappy said:


> Drowning them. Yup, i think that's it, those cubes are too soggy
> I was starting without the cubes and it was the same story so I'm back to the cubes again figuring it's not the cubes.



 I would definitely put them on a timer for three times a day maybe four for about 15 minutes each time guarantee it will do you a world of difference


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## sopappy (Feb 2, 2018)

Budlight said:


> I would definitely put them on a timer for three times a day maybe four for about 15 minutes each time guarantee it will do you a world of difference



I'm going the other route, no water in the trays, drain to waste, I'm syringing maybe 100mL on to those stones twice a day
there's plenty of mist, no lid, this should work but I'll take pics as they look back and turn to stone
I make subtle changes to no avail, this time I'm documenting it,
I'm wasting a small fortune on seeds :-(


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## sopappy (Feb 2, 2018)

Budlight said:


> Too much water is definitely the problem you need to have them on a timer that way the table is flooding  and draining  a few times a day at least  with constant water in there the roots are getting no oxygen and drowning in a sense



When they're big enough for nutes, I turn stuff on and a those trays fill and drain about once an hour (too much?)
nutes around 200, I add cal/mag

trouble is, only 2 of 10 make it to nutes, others die or stop in the 2nd week 
???

I don't cover those plugs because the things always look too soggy to me


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## Budlight (Feb 2, 2018)

sopappy said:


> When they're big enough for nutes, I turn stuff on and a those trays fill and drain about once an hour (too much?)
> nutes around 200, I add cal/mag
> 
> trouble is, only 2 of 10 make it to nutes, others die or stop in the 2nd week
> ...



i wout turn them on when you put them in there just don't add nutes


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## sopappy (Feb 3, 2018)

Looks like i might get all of them up this go-round
not the best pic, I'll get better ones as we watch them stagnate 
it's not damping off that I can see but a couple will keel over, most just stand there pretending to grow
100mil tap water syringed around the cube on to the rocks, twice a day 

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## Hushpuppy (Feb 3, 2018)

Keep doing that until you see some change. They may have suffered some root damage and are taking a little linger to get going due to root repairs. This is a very difficult stage for many people because the seedlings are so finicky and react quickly to any issues.


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## sopappy (Feb 3, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> Keep doing that until you see some change. They may have suffered some root damage and are taking a little linger to get going due to root repairs. This is a very difficult stage for many people because the seedlings are so finicky and react quickly to any issues.



Seems so. This is too regular an occurrence for me. I don't think it's roots, when I have given up and pulled them, I see plenty of roots coming out of the cubes. I shock them, I can't figure out how, drowning is close I bet, no water in that tray this go-round 
I'll get closer with tripod when they start to look off, look great right now 

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## The Hemp Goddess (Feb 4, 2018)

sopappy said:


> I keep them in those pots until they get chopped. Hard on the roots I guees but I just lower them into trays or buckets as they grow.
> They never get transplanted.



What I mean is that I start them in the rapid rooters and do not put them into the net cups and the hydro unit until the rapid rooters have good root growth out of the cube.  It is hard to control the water in the rapid rooters when they are put into the net pots and hydrotron.  So, I am also saying too much water.  I would pull the rapid rooters out of the net pots and put them into a rapid rooter tray cell until the plant have sprouted and gotten some good root growth.


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## tokenzen (Feb 4, 2018)

They look over watered, and are fighting to stay alive.  That's what I can see from your first post.  I would recommend like some others to, put them in a more controlled environment with a dome and take them out of that clay for now if can until you see root exploding through the bottom.  We want to give them love but I think your giving them alittle too much,lol


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## sopappy (Feb 4, 2018)

bombbudpuffa said:


> I really suck at hydro. Wish I could help you.



ya well, don't go away, I saw you mention 100W COB leds in another thread, 
my LEDs are 8 years old now and I'm bewildered by the choice now.


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## sopappy (Feb 4, 2018)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> What I mean is that I start them in the rapid rooters and do not put them into the net cups and the hydro unit until the rapid rooters have good root growth out of the cube.  It is hard to control the water in the rapid rooters when they are put into the net pots and hydrotron.  So, I am also saying too much water.  I would pull the rapid rooters out of the net pots and put them into a rapid rooter tray cell until the plant have sprouted and gotten some good root growth.



ah yes, I see. I was doing that, just figured I could skip a step.
Consensus is overwatering (in hydro, that kills me)

The plugs don't seem as soggy this time. This about the time they stop growing so I'll be posting pictures.


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## sopappy (Feb 4, 2018)

all 12 are up and I lowered the lamp to about 2 inches above the tallest
they look nice and healthy like this one but I can't feed them, right? 2 days old 
but I have to wait another TWO WEEKS?
limiting the watering to a syringe around the plug on to the rocks twice a day
if a plug looks like it's getting dry, I pass over it, otherwise I avoid them

I don't want to use a dome, I like the mist from the humidifier (70) 

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## sopappy (Feb 4, 2018)

tokenzen said:


> They look over watered, and are fighting to stay alive.  That's what I can see from your first post.  I would recommend like some others to, put them in a more controlled environment with a dome and take them out of that clay for now if can until you see root exploding through the bottom.  We want to give them love but I think your giving them alittle too much,lol



"over watered, and are fighting to stay alive" 
yup, the light went on when HP mentioned drowning them. I've had about 5 starts that ended up like that first picture. I was over-concerned about those plugs drying under the lamps so close that I insisted on keeping the tray half full of water
As much as they "looked" over-watered, i didn't think it possible in hydro and dismissed it. Stubborn stupid, cost me a fortune in seed.

I think I got it about right now but this is also where they freeze too


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## sopappy (Feb 4, 2018)

Budlight said:


> Too much water is definitely the problem you need to have them on a timer that way the table is flooding  and draining  a few times a day at least  with constant water in there the roots are getting no oxygen and drowning in a sense



few times a day...
I think this is where I screw up. It's all relative to the size and health of the plant. I'm a nerd, I want to set my rig to ebb and flow every 90 min and forget about it but I think you have to fiddle.

next hurdle is nutes, that begins fill tray and drain, I dunno, twice a day still like syringing frequency?... Start as infrequent as possible and increase as plants grow seems the way to me
What is the first sign of thirst?


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 5, 2018)

This is just my recommendations but at this point I think you have these right in the goldilocks zone of moisture. I wouldn't put these on a timer until you start feeding. Because of the situation of the hydroton and baskets, you need to continue to feed with syringe ONLY when plug feels just dry to the touch. You have to watch them carefully as they begin to grow their water usage will  ramp up quickly. You have to keep a close eye on them and adjust accordingly.

A good rule of thumb for feeding is to wait 2 weeks before feeding but I go by the "seed leaves"(cotyledons). When I see them begin to yellow, I start with about 200-300ppm of base nutes with every watering. Then when I see vigorous growth begin, I ramp up nutes to 400-500ppm, etc. until I reach my max veg levels.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 5, 2018)

A side note about drowning in hydro. The key is in each plants' ability to draw in both moisture and free oxygen. Seedlings are at highest risk here because they are just beginning to grow very vulnerable roots. The slightest variance of too much or too little will damage them at this point. Once the roots have established themselves then they can handle more variances in environmental conditions and are able to more efficiently take in water, free oxygen, and nutrients. Consequently, once they are well established, they can be put in a continuous flow of nutrient solution as long as the free oxygen is continuously replenished.


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## sopappy (Feb 5, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> This is just my recommendations but at this point I think you have these right in the goldilocks zone of moisture. I wouldn't put these on a timer until you start feeding. Because of the situation of the hydroton and baskets, you need to continue to feed with syringe ONLY when plug feels just dry to the touch. You have to watch them carefully as they begin to grow their water usage will  ramp up quickly. You have to keep a close eye on them and adjust accordingly.
> 
> A good rule of thumb for feeding is to wait 2 weeks before feeding but I go by the "seed leaves"(cotyledons). When I see them begin to yellow, I start with about 200-300ppm of base nutes with every watering. Then when I see vigorous growth begin, I ramp up nutes to 400-500ppm, etc. until I reach my max veg levels.



excellent, two weeks? I mistakenly read as soon as you see serrated leaves, wrong leaves.
I was alright on the ppms but have been early, I 'll watch the cotyledons
and mark the calendar
pictures daily until they look established, I want to use this method, 
thanks HP


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## sopappy (Feb 5, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> A side note about drowning in hydro. The key is in each plants' ability to draw in both moisture and free oxygen. Seedlings are at highest risk here because they are just beginning to grow very vulnerable roots. The slightest variance of too much or too little will damage them at this point. Once the roots have established themselves then they can handle more variances in environmental conditions and are able to more efficiently take in water, free oxygen, and nutrients. Consequently, once they are well established, they can be put in a continuous flow of nutrient solution as long as the free oxygen is continuously replenished.



I like the idea of not having to transplant for that very reason but it backfired as I damage the roots moving them from tray to tray anyways.

And like you describe, I think I'm seeing some of these drinking faster than others or it's the heat from the light evaporating it. I'll see some plugs dryer than others but at least they aren't all sopping wet this time and look at latest pic, 12 for 12


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## sopappy (Feb 5, 2018)

All up and looking great but I get that stretch and they keel over, that's why the two T5 HO 64K are so close and the fan is running now. 

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## tokenzen (Feb 5, 2018)

sopappy said:


> "over watered, and are fighting to stay alive"
> yup, the light went on when HP mentioned drowning them. I've had about 5 starts that ended up like that first picture. I was over-concerned about those plugs drying under the lamps so close that I insisted on keeping the tray half full of water
> As much as they "looked" over-watered, i didn't think it possible in hydro and dismissed it. Stubborn stupid, cost me a fortune in seed.
> 
> I think I got it about right now but this is also where they freeze too



I have a tendency to over water my seeds too and show them too much love, always a learning lesson, especially when I've been growing from clone for so many years. I hear you on the burning through beans as a learning process, I'm currently going through my seed stash that's over 10+years and didn't store them all right so I've been going through them like no ones business.  Soo sad to see how much money wasted but also losing so many great gifts I've gotten over the years.


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## zem (Feb 5, 2018)

Congratulations for the nice seedlings. They seem happy and growing. You can gently cover the stem with more growrocks imo


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## sopappy (Feb 5, 2018)

tokenzen said:


> I have a tendency to over water my seeds too and show them too much love, always a learning lesson, especially when I've been growing from clone for so many years. I hear you on the burning through beans as a learning process, I'm currently going through my seed stash that's over 10+years and didn't store them all right so I've been going through them like no ones business.  Soo sad to see how much money wasted but also losing so many great gifts I've gotten over the years.



ouch

I'm posting daily until these plants are established, got to fix this,
hmmmm reminds me of a tune, must make a stop before i leave ha!


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 7, 2018)

One of the most important things to learn when growing from seed: The difference between *moist *and *wet*. Seeds and seedlings want to be kept *moist *not *wet*.  Yeah I hate it when seedlings want to stretch straight up like that. I think its just something that some are going to do.


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## sopappy (Feb 8, 2018)

zem said:


> Congratulations for the nice seedlings. They seem happy and growing. You can gently cover the stem with more growrocks imo



Thanks, Zem, I have done that but I can't see the plug,
Too easy to have those things soaked where borderline dry seems to be right
as they do look great so far


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## sopappy (Feb 8, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> One of the most important things to learn when growing from seed: The difference between *moist *and *wet*. Seeds and seedlings want to be kept *moist *not *wet*.  Yeah I hate it when seedlings want to stretch straight up like that. I think its just something that some are going to do.



Nail. Head. Haha, i just read this after replying to Zem. Yes, that is exactly it.
I forgot how I started seeds in dirt 6 years ago,,, a tablespoon of water twice a day
I should have planted my seeds with scuba gear


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## sopappy (Feb 8, 2018)

They are about a week old and look fine to me so far. I'm measuring the wingspan of that biggest one mugging for the camera. I turned that one but look how they all reach for the light! How can that T5 HO 54w not be enough?

I see about an eighth of an inch growth every 8 hours maybe (wingspan, not height)
seems slow from pics i've seen around here 

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## sopappy (Feb 8, 2018)

no no no no no no no no
it's starting again, hard to see in these pictures, brown to yellow dots grow in size,
it's starting
(seal in french)!!!
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/french-english/phoque
click on the little red speaker

can you hear my plants about 12 seconds in to this clip?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTZhrwR7CoE 

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## sopappy (Feb 9, 2018)

There be thrips in the room dammit! I'm late catching them too, thanks Rose, Umbra, I thought it was pH, nute or shitty grower syndrome.

I'm measuring wingspan to catch when they go zombie but I think it's starting, tiny spots on the seedlings starting but I still see growth but I think it is slow to stopping :-(


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## sopappy (Feb 11, 2018)

Well, I'm not a quitter but I sure get tested. This is the biggest, probably a male, almost 2 weeks old. same old, same old, slow to stop to dead, here we go again
What the hell is on that leaf? thrip damage?

I see the cotyledons yellowing so I'm STARTING light nutes 200ppm anyways, sucker for punishment I guess
(all they got was water 50ppm)

update
Nutes are 150ppm, even parts 3 floras + calmag pH 6.5
the trays fill to just touch the bottoms of the plugs and drain 4 times a day

smaller tray, about a week and half old, they all look like they're giving up 

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## Hushpuppy (Feb 11, 2018)

I don't see thrip damage. That would look like little whitish, squiggly lines in the leaves, or sometimes silvery spots...Azamax for the thrips  They are getting far enough along now, that you wont cook them with 200ppm of nutes.


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## sopappy (Feb 11, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> I don't see thrip damage. That would look like little whitish, squiggly lines in the leaves, or sometimes silvery spots...Azamax for the thrips  They are getting far enough along now, that you wont cook them with 200ppm of nutes.



re-assuring, they sure don't look healthy to me  tho, sum ting wong I says
and what's the brown spots?
And the growth seems so slooooow

I was shooting for 200 but had to dilute and went too far

update:
wingspan still increasing but I am not optimistic


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## sopappy (Feb 15, 2018)

It's about 2 weeks to the day since this bunch sprouted and they are grinding to a halt. The plants stopped growing yesterday morning. I just started flo and empty 4 times a day 2 days ago.

Leaf damage? I have thripps on other plants in the room and an overspray of H2O2 was possible but I've seen this before, they all go walking dead on me like this. This patterns keeps repeating and I've been blaming seed quality.
Last 2 weeks is here.... What the hell did I do wrong? 

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## sopappy (Feb 19, 2018)

2 1/2 weeks, all 12 of them are showing this, 
that leaf curl is new, 
180 ppm  ebb and flow to bottom of plug 4 times a day
plug is damp but not sopping,
I forgot to mention RO water but I haven't been using RO water on the plugs, I used mineralized water for that, but the ebb and flow is RO plus nutes now
(they NEVER sit in water, drains immediately when pump stops (4times/day) 

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## pcduck (Feb 19, 2018)

Start pH @ 5.6 and let drift up to 6.1. 
A pH of 6.5 is to high.


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## sopappy (Feb 19, 2018)

pcduck said:


> Start pH @ 5.6 and let drift up to 6.1.
> A pH of 6.5 is to high.



easy bucket to change, I'm on it
200ppm and I'm adding cal/mag

thanks! I hope yer right, my next thought was a virus
I'm pretty sure there are / were thrips in a tub in that same room. 

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## pcduck (Feb 20, 2018)

I use RO for everything. When using RO I add cal/mag when mixing nutes. For just topping off I use straight RO.


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## sopappy (Feb 20, 2018)

pcduck said:


> I use RO for everything. When using RO I add cal/mag when mixing nutes. For just topping off I use straight RO.



Not pestering you in particular here, pc, just throwing it out there.

I use RO for the grow, the humidifier (no pad nonsense), the water cure, and drinking (tap before DI, 'spose to run that awhile at first so I fill up my canteens (easier on the de-ion they say). 
I also use that water for the seeds. And I feel so guilty about the waste, I fill jerry cans for the toilets.

How do you add minerals? 
I add a quart of my "drinking, seeds, dehumid" water to a reset. 

Do you fuss with PH up down at top ups? or only at resets?


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## sopappy (Feb 20, 2018)

pcduck said:


> Start pH @ 5.6 and let drift up to 6.1.
> A pH of 6.5 is to high.



Reset 24 hours ago, got pretty close at 5.7, ppms 170
it jumped 2 points to 5.9 tonight, so I added more nutes to 250
maybe I should have left it at 170 (sigh)


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 20, 2018)

I believe I see thrips on some leaves. Frame 45, last pic. It looks like a thrip on each of the lateral leaves.


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## pcduck (Feb 21, 2018)

I don't add minerals, everything you need are in the nutes and cal/mag. 

I also do not pH straight RO. No pH buffers in RO.


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## sopappy (Feb 21, 2018)

pcduck said:


> I don't add minerals, everything you need are in the nutes and cal/mag.
> 
> I also do not pH straight RO. No pH buffers in RO.



What do you water your seeds with?

I knew not to pH RO water but I also read not to even try and read the ph
(but no reasons given that I remember)

I do adjust ph with nutes at reset but after I know the amount, at next batch, I add up/dn to the RO water first instead of last (don't know why, read it somewhere)


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## sopappy (Feb 21, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> I believe I see thrips on some leaves. Frame 45, last pic. It looks like a thrip on each of the lateral leaves.



one on each, dammit, I think I see them too, sob, I looked at every damn leaf with my loop 
and I see them in a crummy picture!!!

french for seal!
I can't kill the bastards, no ammo other than H2O2 and alcohol
and that dia.... earth everywhere

I'll try one more application but I think I'm going to put them out of their misery. 

I've experienced every damn problem you can have in 5 years. My first grow was spectacular norther lights that was cup quality, just an out and out FLUKE...  it's been downhill ever since!

me no farmer


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## sopappy (Feb 21, 2018)

I saw them easily with the loop this time *&#@!&^%#)*^%##^
and just went ballistic powdering with that earth stuff

mask on, fans off, lights raised, another grow down the drain

No clones, pretty clean, BUT my garden bag of dead leaves, males, etc was sitting in the room (on account of it stinks up wherever it is)
in a big open top lawn bag
which I regret not showing up in one of my pictures, somebody would have spotted that

I should have taken the time to identify them but pretty sure they're thrips and not just ordinary ones naturally,
I suspect my plants have a virus now too.

That solves this thread...
the set up is okay but fussy with waterin seeds, I was okay this time until I nuted them and screwed up the pH
which weakened them for the thrips that were already in there thanks to that damn bag. Idiot.

thanks all

UPDATE: that's one tough plant, they are still growing, guess I'll hang in for awhile yet, watch them suffer, I'll likely be back with issues all the way through their miserable lives.
(God, what I do to this plant!) 

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## sopappy (Feb 21, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> I don't see thrip damage. That would look like little whitish, squiggly lines in the leaves, or sometimes silvery spots...Azamax for the thrips  They are getting far enough along now, that you wont cook them with 200ppm of nutes.



Here's as close as I can get to Azamax in Kanada

https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_n...8?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=Azamax+


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## pcduck (Feb 21, 2018)

sopappy said:


> What do you water your seeds with?
> 
> I knew not to pH RO water but I also read not to even try and read the ph
> (but no reasons given that I remember)
> ...




I water seeds with R/O.
Yeah R/O bounces around as there are no buffers in it.
I always pH last. Let the nutes and their buffers adjust the pH first. Then after that , if I need to, I pH the the batch.


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## sopappy (Feb 21, 2018)

pcduck said:


> I water seeds with R/O.
> 
> I always pH last. Let the nutes and their buffers adjust the pH first. Then after that , if I need to, I pH the the batch.



I could not get seeds to germinate with RO
(must have been something else)

Yeah R/O bounces around as there are no buffers in it.
(AHAH! Now I remember, the writer said something vague like "it can't do it"
bouncing around.... NOW I get it.


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## zem (Feb 22, 2018)

My base water is 240ppm and I add a good 360 at this stage getting it to 600 and it does not cause any burning. Your leaves look like deficient possibly because of both ph being off and them needing more feeding


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## sopappy (Feb 22, 2018)

zem said:


> My base water is 240ppm and I add a good 360 at this stage getting it to 600 and it does not cause any burning. Your leaves look like deficient possibly because of both ph being off and them needing more feeding



hi zem, I had to stop reading that rat thread, hope it had a happy ending.

wow, 600ppm this early and weakened like this?
I think they have a virus now, I'm just leaving them as bait.
I've dusted every damn square inch in the room for the next grow,  I'm sick of nursing losers, I'd rather start over AGAIN :-(


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 22, 2018)

Hang in there Pappy, those plants are resilient when in veg. Once they get the roots going, they get strong quick.... Try looking up Azadiractin. I think that is how its spelled. That is the active ingredient. If you can get that, it dissolves in water better. If not, the Neem oil will dissolve in water with a drop of liquid dish soap (no chlorine). I would go with 4oz per gallon of water and soil drench them. You can spray them as well as long as there are no flowers present. Yes it will leave an oily sheen on the leaves for about 15-20 days. But it wont hurt the plant. That will eliminate thrips.


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## sopappy (Feb 22, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> Hang in there Pappy, those plants are resilient when in veg. Once they get the roots going, they get strong quick.... Try looking up Azadiractin. I think that is how its spelled. That is the active ingredient. If you can get that, it dissolves in water better. If not, the Neem oil will dissolve in water with a drop of liquid dish soap (no chlorine). I would go with 4oz per gallon of water and soil drench them. You can spray them as well as long as there are no flowers present. Yes it will leave an oily sheen on the leaves for about 15-20 days. But it wont hurt the plant. That will eliminate thrips.



https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_n...l=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=Azadiractin
I only get to read about it

and this is as close as I get to NEEM
https://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=neem&rh=i:aps,k:neem

the room is diatomaceous earth everywhere, they lived through an alcohol wash and an H2O2 wash so I'm not spraying that on them again.

I'll stick it out, HP, but I'm not optimistic. my wingspan notes shows they are stopped but They did stretch up instead a bit to the raised light, it's down again (2-3 inches)

I went over every leaf and can't find any. 
The powder is a dusting everywhere, forgot about the fans in the leds but they're crap anyways, 7-8 years old
overpowering urge to dust in there haha

on the bright side, I stumbled on the fix for my furnace and cancelled a nerve-wracking service call aaaand saved some bucks!
man, cold and stressed trying to hide signs of what I'm doing down there when I can't fix it and have to schedule a service call
I tried one last time with a new non-prog stat using only two wires and awaaaaay we go, what a sweet sound..... 
Frig the A/C, don't need that today harhar


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## zem (Feb 23, 2018)

sopappy What type of furnace heaters do you use? What is its problem?


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## sopappy (Feb 23, 2018)

zem said:


> sopappy What type of furnace heaters do you use? What is its problem?



Forced Air Gas Furnace is in basement. The programmable thermostat popped a fuse when I didn't change the batteries fast enough (or so it seemed).
Display read Lo Bat for a few days then went blank...
I changed the batteries and a fuse popped on the main board in the furnace.
Nothing is a simple fix in here.
Poltergeists.


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## zem (Feb 24, 2018)

sopappy said:


> Forced Air Gas Furnace is in basement. The programmable thermostat popped a fuse when I didn't change the batteries fast enough (or so it seemed).
> Display read Lo Bat for a few days then went blank...
> I changed the batteries and a fuse popped on the main board in the furnace.
> Nothing is a simple fix in here.
> Poltergeists.



Hey sopappy check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Uc-gVoYFs second part of the video he changes the fuse on the board. It does look fairly simple. Hope this helps, good luck


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## sopappy (Feb 24, 2018)

zem said:


> Hey sopappy check this out. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9Uc-gVoYFs second part of the video he changes the fuse on the board. It does look fairly simple. Hope this helps, good luck



Missed that one. I've never seen the fuse on the furnace 110 switch, that was kinda neat. I damaged my thermostat changing the batteries and blew the 5A one on the board. Glad I bought 5 of them, it took me three to figure it out.


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## sopappy (Mar 3, 2018)

Well, I'm back, I can't remember ever having a smooth grow and I do get tired of moaning all the time, but here we go again...

These are the seedlings that were attacked by bugs. I sprayed with H2O2, alcohol, water and spread diacromablahblah earth all over the place. I think they're gone HA!

Anyways...I moved them from that tray into a tub, 200 ppm, the roots were reaching the water so I did not top water. They drooped almost immediately. I thought with the new digs, they'd look a lot better this am and they do not. 

View attachment 100_0029.jpg


View attachment 100_0028.jpg


View attachment 100_0027.jpg


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## sopappy (Mar 8, 2018)

Anybody concerned about chloramines in their city water?
I can't believe I'm this incompetent, it's a weed ffs
(only I have plants that look thirsty or over watered in hydro)


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## Hushpuppy (Mar 11, 2018)

Pappy, its easier to just say DE 

I have never used city water but I would think it will depend on which city. If you are in Flint Mich. you may want to use bottled water  seriously, it will depend on several factors. one being the distance from the treatment plant. Two being how much that particular facility uses to treat their water. I say if you cant smell it, it should be ok, but I wouldn't swear to that as I have never dealt with it.

One thing that I think is plaguing you is that cuttings/clones can be VERY temperamental sometimes. That is why I start all mine in smaller cups, so that I can more precisely control the moisture level. 
Also those clones may just be responding to being moved to a new location, since they changed so quickly. Give them a few days. If you are feeding 200 ppm, you may want to bump up to 300 as they are growing canopies that will want more nutes.


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## sopappy (Mar 12, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> Pappy, its easier to just say DE
> 
> I have never used city water but I would think it will depend on which city. If you are in Flint Mich. you may want to use bottled water  seriously, it will depend on several factors. one being the distance from the treatment plant. Two being how much that particular facility uses to treat their water. I say if you cant smell it, it should be ok, but I wouldn't swear to that as I have never dealt with it.
> 
> ...



Hi HP. I tell you what's really discouraging about this slow growth and the bugs...NO clobes here! I grow from seed! 8 years, no bugs, how the f did they get in? no street clothes or shoes, filtres on air input! 

The chloramine filtre is 50 bucks and it helps the other filtres last longer too apparently, I guess it can't hurt.

Half of them seem to be coming back ever so slowly so I'll do  reset at 300 but growth always seems so slow in here.


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## Hushpuppy (Mar 13, 2018)

Man bugs can find their way in. I had black flies a while back and I swear they were spontaneously generating from nowhere. I kept killing them until they finally quit rematerializing  I often will spray neem oil on my walls and around any openings in my room that go to outside. I think (cant swear to it) that it helps keep the critters away.

The chloramine filter may be worth trying. I know clones are hard sometimes to get going. I have a strain now called Strawberry sour Diesel that clones easily enough but then the clones flounder for multiple weeks before picking up and going on. Its like they want to be FULLY rooted before they will do anything that looks like proper growth. Once they get going in veg, they do fine. I think its because the clones are kinda vulnerable to everything while they are in that rooting stage and transition stage.


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## sopappy (Mar 13, 2018)

Hushpuppy said:


> Man bugs can find their way in. I had black flies a while back and I swear they were spontaneously generating from nowhere. I kept killing them until they finally quit rematerializing  I often will spray neem oil on my walls and around any openings in my room that go to outside. I think (cant swear to it) that it helps keep the critters away.
> 
> The chloramine filter may be worth trying. I know clones are hard sometimes to get going. I have a strain now called Strawberry sour Diesel that clones easily enough but then the clones flounder for multiple weeks before picking up and going on. Its like they want to be FULLY rooted before they will do anything that looks like proper growth. Once they get going in veg, they do fine. I think its because the clones are kinda vulnerable to everything while they are in that rooting stage and transition stage.



Good lord, HP, what's a man bug? Sounds pretty fricken big.
Damn papa Trudeau, I used metric and used 10x the nutes, tray was 3000ppm... actually 2900 on the meter but (stoned) I (wishful) saw 290
I hate waste, I hope the 3part flora stuff lasts few months when mixed.


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## pcduck (Mar 14, 2018)

HushPuppy, Many dairy farmers spray AEM on their walls to decrease the black fly population.


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## Hushpuppy (Mar 21, 2018)

:doh: that should've said, "man, I tell you what, bugs will find a way in." If you get man-bugs, its time to put away the Azamax and break out the shotgun 

The Black flies were actually in my house, not the grow (thankfully). I think they came in with some hyacinth bulbs in pots that had been outside. I brought them in so the hard freeze wouldn't kill them. I think the flies had been laying dormant in the soil and when it warmed up in my house, they slowly came out.


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