# Lucas formula question



## Growdude (Sep 25, 2013)

Was going to try this for bloom this run.

Is it 8/ml gal micro x 16/ml gal bloom?

Also do you add any bloom boost like kool bloom at some week?


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## pcduck (Sep 25, 2013)

That is what I used.

I did not use any bloom booster


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 26, 2013)

I don't really have any experience with an "official" Lucas formula but with my nutes that are very similar to the GH flora3p I basically cut off the grow by the end of the 3rd week(of flower) and only run micro and bloom the rest of the way. I pump mine up so that my average feeders are getting about 1200ppm. However, I have found a new trick that really pumps up the flavor and potency of my stuff from just the basic nutes. I add 6ml(per gal) of organic tea and 6ml(per gal) of hygrozyme to my "flowering" feeding regimen. I did it as an experiment because a friend of mine really loves the organic flavor. I didn't tell him what I did and just let him have some of the new and he was blown away by the flavor and potency. He said he didn't know what I was doing different but "keep doing it".  Just a suggestion if you are interested


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 26, 2013)

With the Lucas Formula, you basically run 1 part micro to 2 parts bloom.  While 8 ml micro and 16 ml bloom is what is normally used, you can adjust your ppms to anything you want and just keep the ratio.  I do find that I need to add Cal-Mag when running hydro and using GH nutes.

Hushpuppy, what do you think that the organic tea and the hygrozyme adds to a chemical grow?  How does it work with the chemical nutes?  I personally cannot tell the difference between organically grown bud and chemically grown bud after a proper dry and cure.


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## pcduck (Sep 26, 2013)

Ahh if only Stoneybud could be here with his double blind test.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 26, 2013)

I think the key to using the organic nutes with the hygrozyme is that Hygrozyme is made of the digestive enzymes of microbes that are used in the chelation process. By having the hygrozyme to use with the tea, I don't have to worry if the chems kill off the microbes that are present in the tea because the enzymes that are already present join with the microbes before they die off and chelate the nutrients in the organic tea (this is just an educated supposition as I'm not exactly sure how it works) 

 I tried it for the heck of it after running an organic grow and wondering if I could run the 2 types together with any better results. I called the Advanced Nutrients reps and asked them specifically if their Mother Earth tea would work with the Jungle Juice and they said it would  I know a sales rep would tell me that motor oil would work with my jungle juice if they thought it would generate a sale. But I wanted to test it for myself to see if it would make any difference.

I don't know if you would call it a "double blind" test, but I did do a side by side with just the JJ3part "standard regimen" that I had been using in one tent, and then the combination JJ and 'zyme/tea in the other tent. I did a standard dry and cure with both (which harvested 2 weeks apart from each other) and then gave out the usual amounts to those who I regularly sold to, and every person said the same thing, "Wow, what are you doing different this time? Is this a different strain from the usual?". Then when I ran out of that and started back into the harvested bud that was done with the regular nute regimen everyone said, "Hey what happened to the other stuff you had? This is good like it always is but that last stuff was great!"

I then when to using the organic tea and hygrozyme with my flower regimen every time from there. Everyone said the same thing, "I don't know what you are doing different but so far it is making everything taste better and more potent!". Unfortunately, I haven't been able to continue to test it as I was busted and shut down. Ironically enough, the sheriffs said my buds that were still 2 weeks out from harvest were the best quality buds that they had ever seen in this county


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 26, 2013)

I love reading your posts Hushpuppy. :aok:


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## Growdude (Sep 26, 2013)

Thanks everyone
I have Hygrozyme and I always use Cal-mag with my RO water.


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## pcduck (Sep 27, 2013)

IDK Hushpuppy:confused2:

I am not a Dr. nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn, but from all the research and reading I have done, states that chemical nutes make the grow medium nearly useless for organic growing as the salts in them kill the microbes. Plants feed on the by products of the microbes and not the microbes themselves per say. Dead microbes mean no by products.

If plants taste like what they are grown in, my outdoor plants should taste like 30lb carp, since I put one of them in the bottom of my holes. But they don't. So I do not understand how adding a tea to a chem grow is going to effect the taste at all. I myself and everyone I have smoked with cannot tell if it has been grown organic or with synthetics, nor if they have been flushed or not.

My understand of chelation is...the chelate molecules surrounds other molecules making them easier to assimilate for the plant or making the molecule to big for the plant to assimilate depending on the molecule.Sort of like adding that teaspoon of sugar to help the medicine go down.

h**p://www.jhbiotech.com/plant_products/chelation.htm

Hygrozyme site got hacked, so no info there. Although it may just be an AEM with a fancy name,IDK.


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## Grower13 (Sep 27, 2013)

Growdude said:
			
		

> Was going to try this for bloom this run.
> 
> Is it 8/ml gal micro x 16/ml gal bloom?
> 
> Also do you add any bloom boost like kool bloom at some week?


 


I've been using the Lucas formula since spring........... I've been using 7/ml per gal of bloom and 7/ml of kool bloom per gallon also have been using 7/ml of micro per gallon......... getting good results.......... I had to back off the amounts of micro used in veg from 10 ml to 7 ml........ some of the strains I'm running where showing being over nuted with Nitrogen.........


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## trillions of atoms (Sep 27, 2013)

Calmag during transition only. 

Hydrozyme isn't needed.  I've run addback with one swap at flower and no issues.  Hit them with koolbloom at week 5 till end



Gh is an espom salt fert,  it is available instantly... No chelation necessary.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 27, 2013)

*Thanks DG *

*PC:* I don't know all the mechanics of it. I'm not saying that the plants feed on the microbes, the microbes produce enzymes that break down organic materials and make them available to the plants.   I used to work for an enzyme factory that makes enzymes for everything from washing detergent to beer production, and as I understand it(and I may be wrong) ALL chemical actions in the biological realm (on the molecular level) occur with the use of enzymes. 

So it is my reasoning that if you can substitute the microbes with the enzymes that are produced by those beneficial microbes then you can get the same results as having the beneficial microbes _(albeit probably not as efficiently as with a solid herd of bennies)_. But in a situation where you have an environment that is unsuitable for a healthy microbe herd, ie. synthetic nutes _I would postulate _that having the enzymes in place of the microbes that would quickly die off, would still have some benefit to the plants. 

I may be wrong in my assertions, however, I didn't tell any of the people that use my bud that I was doing these changes and combining the synthetic and organic nutes. I did it as an experiment because I have a couple people who love "organically grown flavor", who had mentioned repeatedly that they liked the flavor of my buddy's organic bud better than my synthetic bud. The key to this was that they didn't know our individual methods. We were growing the same strains and they liked the flavor of his better. 

I told no one what I was doing, including my buddy. But then when My bud began being circulated among friends _(without knowing whose was whose)_, they raved over the flavor of the newest bud that was circulating. Also my other friends, who also really liked my bud and didn't know organic from synthetic, raved over the flavor of my latest products, and wanted to know if I was doing something different.

So was it coincidence? I don't know since I am currently shut down and can't continue testing my results. But it is what it is, and I invite anyone who is doubtful or curious to try it and see if a larger experiment with different grows produces the same results or different results. Maybe we can narrow down the parameters that will help us all make some minor improvement to our grows.


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## trillions of atoms (Sep 27, 2013)

Was the cure longer?  Did you do anything with the nutrient regime towards the end that might have been different?   Same strain from seed?  Clone?  All same ferts?


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## pcduck (Sep 27, 2013)

*HP*

Don't they have to be alive to produce these enzymes?
If you believe these enzymes are beneficial why use a tea? and not just the enzymes?

Even a healthy tea has a short life span if not given air and food. Lack of air will kill most teas(benes) within hours.

The salt in the chems will begin to massacre the benes nearly on contact by drying them out and I would imagine most are deceased when the medium begins to dry.

I am just speculating here but I believe any increase/improvement you see is from the additional chelates in the tea/hygrozyme and not from the live microbes themselves.

There is a thread here about effective microorganisms and AEM that you would find interesting that I believe our member *umbra* started. I use AEM and have not looked back. AEM has given me the biggest improvement in buddage then anything else including the introduction of CO2. Here is a link from where I purchase my EM

h**p://www.scdprobiotics.com/ProBio_Balance_Plus_p/a152-1.htm

Another informative and interesting read

h**p://www.amazon.com/Building-Soils-Naturally-Phil-Nauta/dp/1601730330/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1380315650&sr=1-1&keywords=building+soils+naturally+by+phil+nauta


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 28, 2013)

*TOA:* All of my plants were from clones that originated from the same mother plants. Each tent tested had 2 different strains in together but the strains in both tents were the same. Harvesting drying and cure were the same as I had a set pattern and schedule because of maintaining 3 flower tents that were offset by 3weeks from each other for convenience of harvest and keeping a constant flow of product. Yes all were given the same ferts and schedule of feeding from start to finish. The only difference was the inclusion of the Mother Earth tea and Hygrozyme with the test groups.

*PC:* I think you are getting the Mother Earth tea confused with a benny tea. Here is the key, I think: You said, _"I am just speculating here but I believe any increase/improvement you see is from the additional chelates in the tea/hygrozyme and not from the live microbes themselves". _

That is the whole of it. The Mother earth tea is a nutrient tea(rather than a microbe tea) that is partly to mostly chelated but still has some live microbe life in it. However, as I am not trying to maintain the live microbe heard(because I know that the synthetic nute environment will most likely kill them off relatively quickly) I am not concerned about trying to depend on them. That is the purpose of the Hygrozyme, to replace the microbes in any chelation process that might be needed in my hydro environment because of the inclusion of the organic components in the mother earth tea. Also the hygrozyme "is supposed" to help with binding up free salts in the hydro system and help "clean up" the hydro-zone.

I think I have read some of Umbra's stuff but I have read so much I can't remember. I will certainly have a look at those links as I find all of the microbial symbiotic interaction so interesting, and I am always open to learn new stuff


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## pcduck (Sep 28, 2013)

HP

Do you aerate this Mother Earth Tea?

Sort of looks to me like _Mothers Earth Super Tea_ is just bottled organic nutes,if you don't bubble it, and AN is using it as a play on words.

No air, no aerobic microbes only anaerobic microbes.


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## pcduck (Sep 28, 2013)

HP

If it works for you... great

I would try the EM on the link I provided earlier. 
Once you make the AEM, it is way cheaper then Hygrozym and Mothers Earth Super Tea.

I think you will see the same results if not better.

After understanding the powers of AEM you will be able to make a real super tea


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 28, 2013)

Here is the link to what I had: hxxp://www.discount-hydro.com/products/Advanced-Nutrients-Mother-Earth-Tea.html
The description of it is that it is a complete organic fert that does have beneficial bacteria in it. I only used the bloom nute as I didn't see the need to use it during the veg phase. I put it in my hydro rez, which did get bubbled a lot on a continual basis.

I tried this as an experiment and I got raving results with it. I don't know what else to tell you :confused2:


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## pcduck (Sep 29, 2013)

HP

Mothers Earth Tea is a bottled organic fertilizer.
The beneficial bacteria in it are anaerobic bacteria till air is re-introduced where some of the anaerobic bacteria turn back to aerobic bacteria. Unfortunately most are killed when applied to a previously chem medium. Negating any benefits from the microbes as they are dead. At least everything I have read states that chems nutes kills microbes

I am happy you are getting rave reviews. I am just highly doubtful this is happening because of the reasons you have stated.    

Here is my $0.01 on what I think may be going on.
Mother Earth Tea is heavily chelated(I believe) and some of the chelated molecules are hanging around long enough to be utilized by the plant. This amount that is being used would not be enough to sustain the plant on its own. Kind of early in the morning for me to remember for sure  but I think  P is one of the chelated variety. Some do not need chelated at all so these would not be utilized.

The anaerobic bacteria in the Mothers Earth Tea is helping the plant utilize  what is already in your coco.

I think you may get the same/better results by just upping your ppm's and adding an AEM or fulvic acid to your rez. AEM for anaerobic bacteria and fulvic acid for chelation.


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## akhockey (Oct 17, 2013)

I use Lucas formula in my hydro set-up. i just use the 1:2 ratio micro to bloom running between 1400-1500ppm as my Purple Haze is a heavy feeder. I just use tap water since Ive got great water to begin with at 80ppm from the hose. I run add back and topping off with H2o for 4 weeks then dump and run the same again for the final 4. Ive grown the same strain in full organic SS and I or no one else can tell the difference between the 2 grows. I absolutely hate Koolbloom as even at small doses I have bleaching issues as my light is close. So no additives for me except a little Cal Mag at week 2 of each rez change.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 17, 2013)

AK, I have also noticed no difference whatsoever in taste between plants that I grew organically and those I use chemical fertilizers on.  Neither can my friends.  I was wondering about maybe adding Kool-Bloom, but you find it causes light bleach?  I always run my lights quite close too.


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## NorCalHal (Oct 17, 2013)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> AK, I have also noticed no difference whatsoever in taste between plants that I grew organically and those I use chemical fertilizers on. Neither can my friends. I was wondering about maybe adding Kool-Bloom, but you find it causes light bleach? I always run my lights quite close too.


 
I rock Koolbloom at 10 ml per gal...max strength...no issues...except fat nugs. I stop usuing liquid koolbloom in week 5-6 and use koolbloom powder for a week or so before I flush at the end of the cycle.


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## trillions of atoms (Oct 17, 2013)

I have used the Lucas form w great success, I've been tinkering with some pbp I got recently but with Lucas I would hit them with the KB 4weeks into flower small doses bringing it up every Rez swap.

Only a few have shown cal/mg issues with the 8/16 mix...

Run them till they fade...


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## akhockey (Nov 20, 2013)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> I rock Koolbloom at 10 ml per gal...max strength...no issues...except fat nugs. I stop usuing liquid koolbloom in week 5-6 and use koolbloom powder for a week or so before I flush at the end of the cycle.


 
I don't know what the deal is. I havent had any luck with the powder stuff. Never tried the liquid. I didn't get nute burn when using it but the tops of all my colas were just fried and bleached. May have been the strain I was running at the time. I have had excellent luck just running Lucas just a hair less hot than will burn them. Ive got a 1000w in a space 3.5 by 3.5 by 5 foot tall so my ligh ends up being pretty close. Otherwise they usually love all of those lumens.


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