# PH drift



## PUFF MONKEY (Nov 26, 2009)

i am wondering what the time period should be when my PH drifts from 5.6 to 6.0..i like to catch it before it gets there but recently the shift lengths are totally unpredictable. is this eratic fluctuation normal midway through flowering ? if not, what would i do to steady things out?also.. it seems that i have to use a great deal of earth juice down to move my PH 0.1..all my meters are in working order and were cal checked just the other day. i'm in a 70 gal res if that helps.


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## DonJones (Nov 26, 2009)

Puff Monkey,

It might help if you posted what variety you are growing, what nutes and additives you are using and what kind of hydro you are running.  You probably have posted this befoe but please refresh our minds.

I have never grown hydro yet so I'm trying to remember what I read about PH in the Forums.  If I remember correctly, some nutes seem to cause wide swings.  I have read that some brands of nute have "buffers included" to keep the PH stable.  If so, what MIGHT be happening is that your nute have buffers in them and when you PH the solution you over power the buffer(s)  But after a period of time the slow release buffered over  power your PH down, so the PH goes up.  If this is what is happening in your case, then you are kind of screwed with a choice between  playing chase the PH with the nutes or find other nutes that doesn't do that.

Incidentally there are some excellent threads on both the PH problem and making your own PH down on the forum.

I hope I'm all wet with my assessment of what is happening with your PH.

How long does it take your PH to go up, how far does it go if you leave it alone, and will it stabilize or even come back down if you don't mess with it?

Today is probably not a good day to get answers on the Forum being a holiday so hopefully you will get some bettr advice tomorrow.

Good smoking.


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## PUFF MONKEY (Nov 26, 2009)

man i would loooove to but i gotta run out for a sack....yeah, i know... how ironic huh ? i'll post all that as soon as i return.. the plants are 1 mazar and 4 bluemystic.


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## Old_SSSC_Guy (Nov 27, 2009)

the faster the plants grow the more potential for pH shift as the ladies eat more/different trace elements from your mix.  depending on your setup you also can get shift as evaporation also changes the mix, effected by how many cycles a day you run, and the collection method for recirculating the used nute back into play.  like if you are in long trays and you drip them into catch basins and pump them back to reservoir or something like that.  70 gals is a lot of mix to maintain.  in theory you need to change it weekly and thats a lot of nute to mix.

you also can get pH shift from using hot water to mix the nutes, in the midwest especially there can be a lot of lime (or hot water scale) in the water.  one way it shows up and constantly "roving" pH which you have to chase your tail to balance.  it climbs, you add pH down, it climbs again, you add more - pretty soon your nute mix is all trashed from sheer overload of pH adjustments.  

one thing to check and trace daily is your PPM along with the pH.  if you see the pH shift when you get higher PPMs, it might be that the mix is evaporating and getting more concentrated.  always check the two things as a unit, and check your source water too.

DonJones said it right - you gotta explain what you have setup...


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## NorCalHal (Nov 27, 2009)

IMO, a PH drift from 5.6-6.0 is norml for hydro and is actually beneficial. Yu WANT a upward drift. So, start at the low end, which u are, and let 'er drift to 6.0
As long as you do a water change consistently, you should have no issues man.


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## pcduck (Nov 27, 2009)

:yeahthat::goodposting: BIU :bolt::bong2:


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## Tater (Nov 30, 2009)

Bang on NorCal, I let mine drift from 5.6 up to 6.3 and by then they are ready for a rez change.


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## PUFF MONKEY (Dec 1, 2009)

so are you sayin' i need to change the water after the PH rise ? cause i just use PH down to bring it back to 5.6 .. i usually change out the res every 2 weeks though.


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## erkelsgoo420 (Dec 1, 2009)

Not really a rule to it as each plant is different. If it were hungry it would eat more nutes than water therefore raising ph.. Which is why its important to ph water before adding nutes. If u still have problems u can buy a "base" which will set ur water at a certain ph and then u can adjust from there insuring no drastic spikes causing lockout. Are u in a bubbleponic system? If so do u still have the pump and feeding line in if so take it out that could be causing the spikes. Also water temp will cause slight changes. In a 70 gallon res it should stay pretty stable but I would imagine it takes a lot of everything to get it where u want it haha. If ur having problems I can vouch for technaflora ph down its pretty potent half a lid takes 12 gallons from 9.6 to 5.4-.8.
All that said it typically takes a week for my ph to drift from 5.4 to 6.


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## pcduck (Dec 1, 2009)

I never ph my water before adding nutes, I do it afterwards, if it needs it.


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## PUFF MONKEY (Dec 1, 2009)

yeah, the GH 3 usually brings my RO to where it needs to be ..out of the 4 strains i have growing now, the BM's are the only ones showing any leaf discoloration and it's only on the fan leaves..the others look perfect. they are about 4-5 weeks into flower now and the PH wants to hang between 5.8-6.0 @ 1300 +-75.....could it just be a matter of "conditioning" 70 gal of RO water ?


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## pcduck (Dec 1, 2009)

Hey Puff I just started using R/O water myself and GH 3 does seem to put the ph right where the plants need it. I still aerate my nutes solution for 24 hours before testing and using the mix.

edit: I also put a bit of cal/mag in for the leaf discoloration in the 3-4 week period.


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## Callawave (Dec 1, 2009)

Hi Puff.
My pH has been drifting from 5.4 to 5.7 or 8 daily.
Also if you're using RO water, are you replacing the electrolytes lost through the process? I use Kent Marine 'RO Right' to simulate soft river water. If you don't, most meters will give you a false reading.


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## erkelsgoo420 (Dec 1, 2009)

My bad. I forgot a lot of people use ro I'm on tap atm. No$.


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## PUFF MONKEY (Dec 2, 2009)

Callawave said:
			
		

> Hi Puff.
> My pH has been drifting from 5.4 to 5.7 or 8 daily.
> Also if you're using RO water, are you replacing the electrolytes lost through the process? I use Kent Marine 'RO Right' to simulate soft river water. If you don't, most meters will give you a false reading.


this is news to me...i have not heard of replacing electrolytes in ro water...how much of a false reading we talkin' ? cause my plants ain't showin' it...also 5.4 is a little low ain't it ?... i think i could go for a little cal/mag stuff but my "problem" was really more like shifting .3 one week and then shifting .5 the week after(having readjusted to 5.6 from the previous week).i was just wondering if the inconsistancy was the sign of a more serious problem..but hey, i think the plants are lovin' it.


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## pcduck (Dec 2, 2009)

erkelsgoo420 said:
			
		

> My bad. I forgot a lot of people use ro I'm on tap atm. No$.



*erkelsgoo420 *Even with using tap water why would a grower lower the ph prior to adding nute? Adding nutes lower your ph. If a grower ph'es his water to 5.6-5.8 before adding nutes he will have to raise his ph after adding nutes. Seems to me to be a lot of ph up and ph down being used if doing it this way.


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## pcduck (Dec 2, 2009)

Callawave said:
			
		

> Hi Puff.
> My pH has been drifting from 5.4 to 5.7 or 8 daily.
> Also if you're using RO water, are you replacing the electrolytes lost through the process? I use Kent Marine 'RO Right' to simulate soft river water. If you don't, most meters will give you a false reading.



My meter does not do this:confused2: Why?


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## Tater (Dec 2, 2009)

If you are worried about the electrical balance of your water just add a couple cups of tap water to your ro water to balance it out.


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## erkelsgoo420 (Dec 2, 2009)

pcduck said:
			
		

> *erkelsgoo420 *Even with using tap water why would a grower lower the ph prior to adding nute? Adding nutes lower your ph. If a grower ph'es his water to 5.6-5.8 before adding nutes he will have to raise his ph after adding nutes. Seems to me to be a lot of ph up and ph down being used if doing it this way.


I adjust before hand as my tap is above 9 so I adjust to 5.9-6.0 then add nutes putting me right where I need to be. Then when/if they get hungry and eat all the nutes in the res my ph won't spike back to 9 only to the previously adjusted 6... And I NEVER touch ph up. Its a pain but its the only way I can do it personally. Once I get an ro filter it'll be a different story as all the nutes I use are ph perfect but til then I gotta give myself a safe baseline or I could lose everything over a few days :/


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## Callawave (Dec 2, 2009)

Tater said:
			
		

> If you are worried about the electrical balance of your water just add a couple cups of tap water to your ro water to balance it out.


Whatever rocks your boat. I prefer not adding algae spores and chlorine.


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## Callawave (Dec 2, 2009)

pcduck said:
			
		

> My meter does not do this:confused2: Why?


How do you know? :confused2:


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## pcduck (Dec 3, 2009)

Callawave said:
			
		

> How do you know? :confused2:



I have a calibrated meter


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## pcduck (Dec 3, 2009)

erkelsgoo420 said:
			
		

> I adjust before hand as my tap is above 9 so I adjust to 5.9-6.0 then add nutes putting me right where I need to be. Then when/if they get hungry and eat all the nutes in the res my ph won't spike back to 9 only to the previously adjusted 6... And I NEVER touch ph up. Its a pain but its the only way I can do it personally. Once I get an ro filter it'll be a different story as all the nutes I use are ph perfect but til then I gotta give myself a safe baseline or I could lose everything over a few days :/



Even with this type of ph of the water I would still not pH the water first. If your nutes are pH balanced they should try to balanced themselves out prior to adding pH down, then once that is done you would not have to use so much pH down.


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## pcduck (Dec 3, 2009)

Callawave said:
			
		

> Whatever rocks your boat. I prefer not adding algae spores and chlorine.






			
				 General Hydroponics said:
			
		

> Answer: Chlorine is highly volatile; it evaporates as soon as it hits the air. By the time the nutrient solution reaches the roots, the chlorine is gone.



This is also from their web site.



> Sometimes pH crashes because of the presence of a large amount of microbial activity in the nutrient solution. This is usually a result of poor maintenance of the system due to infrequent nutrient changes or other stresses. The best way to avoid this scenario is to keep a clean system with adequate nutrition.


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## IRISH (Dec 3, 2009)

only if you know the swing of your ph , you can add the down first. this is for the more advanced grower, that already knows exactly what a tablespoon of thier nutes is going to do to the ph...

example= i want my ph 5.8- my tap is 9.0- knowing 1 tablespoon of super bloom is going to drop the 9 down to 8, then another , to 7. follow me?

so, if i start with the ph of 9.0, then add ph down, i can only take it down 1.2... then with 2 tablespoons nutes, BAM 5.8... ...

thats the scenario i can see here...

WE DO NOT DO THIS...lol...lol...but am guilty of doing it a few times when real high. ...usually just start over...


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## pcduck (Dec 3, 2009)

The scenario that I see is about the time you think you got it figured out your water supplier/ water department changes the amounts they add b/c there are only certain parameters they have to meet and not exceed which vary greatly. I too thought I had it figured out till my water department did something or GH did something different...I would bet the water department did something.


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## Callawave (Dec 3, 2009)

pcduck said:
			
		

> I have a calibrated meter


I know therell be a backlash of people saying, "crap, rubbish, bullocks" etc. But we all have opinions and while I may be on my first grow, and wouldnt dream of telling you what pH you should use for soil or hydro etc. I have been managing pH in brewing, winemaking and fish-keeping for over thirty years, and have owned many different probes over the years (I have seven at the moment). So I do feel qualified to offer an opinion regarding owning and using probes. 
Your calibrating solutions will read spot on when adjusted. But stick your probe in neat RO or distilled water and you cant trust the reading!
Im not saying that itll be miles out, it may even be spot-on. It may be perfectly acceptable for the purpose of growing weed. But the reason manufacturers tell you to use storage solution or tap water and not distilled or RO water to keep your probe tip moist (something else that a lot of people dont do) is because it effects the probes long term memory. Let your sensor dry out or store it long term in RO or distilled and you cant even trust your calibrating solution readings.
I await my detractors. :hubba:


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## pcduck (Dec 3, 2009)

Callawave said:
			
		

> I know therell be a backlash of people saying, "crap, rubbish, bullocks" etc. But we all have opinions and while I may be on my first grow, and wouldnt dream of telling you what pH you should use for soil or hydro etc. I have been managing pH in brewing, winemaking and fish-keeping for over thirty years, and have owned many different probes over the years (I have seven at the moment). So I do feel qualified to offer an opinion regarding owning and using probes.
> Your calibrating solutions will read spot on when adjusted. But stick your probe in neat RO or distilled water and you cant trust the reading!
> Im not saying that itll be miles out, it may even be spot-on. It may be perfectly acceptable for the purpose of growing weed. But the reason manufacturers tell you to use storage solution or tap water and not distilled or RO water to keep your probe tip moist (something else that a lot of people dont do) is because it effects the probes long term memory. Let your sensor dry out or store it long term in RO or distilled and you cant even trust your calibrating solution readings.
> I await my detractors. :hubba:




How do you know not to trust your meters? 

or out of the 7 which ones are right?

The manufacturer of my pH meter states _not to use tap water_ because of the salts in the water will dry on the probe and give miss readings from this salt residue.


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## Tater (Dec 3, 2009)

Callawave said:
			
		

> Whatever rocks your boat. I prefer not adding algae spores and chlorine.



True enough, hit it with a few teaspoons of 30% H2O2 and then add it to solve that problem.


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## Callawave (Dec 3, 2009)

pcduck said:
			
		

> How do you know not to trust your meters?
> or out of the 7 which ones are right?
> The manufacturer of my pH meter states _not to use tap water_ because of the salts in the water will dry on the probe and give miss readings from this salt residue.


You have to keep them clean, yes. If there&#8217;s a build up of concretion it will need soaking in something to remove it. Don&#8217;t scour it off!
And as for which of mine are right. All of them are right.
If they&#8217;re a good quality probe, and if you maintain them correctly from new, they&#8217;ll last for years. 
I have four continuous readout units and three handheld, which I calibrate weekly. I store the handhelds with the probe tips resting in damp cotton wool balls. 
A first sign of trouble is your screw or button won&#8217;t allow you to calibrate at 4, 7 or 10. (i.e. It&#8217;ll only reach up to 3.5 or down to 7.5 before you run out of thread for example).
Someone may also point out that the temperature of the liquid being measured has an effect on the reading. Most probes are designed to read pH at 20% Celsius.
But I&#8217;m probably being a bit pedantic for the sake of the perfectionists out there. :fid:


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## pcduck (Dec 3, 2009)

> And as for which of mine are right. All of them are right.



and how do you know that?

You did ask me the same question and I answered you the same way..I have a calibrated meter...I guess I just do not get your point of the conversation?


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## Callawave (Dec 3, 2009)

pcduck said:
			
		

> and how do you know that?
> You did ask me the same question and I answered you the same way..I have a calibrated meter...I guess I just do not get your point of the conversation?


Sorry pcduck.
What I meant by "how do you know?" was, if your (or my) probe is working perfectly and is calibrated correctly, when you place it in RO or distilled water, if you get a reading of 6.5 or 7 or 7.5, you cant believe the reading.
I wasnt criticising your probe or your calibration technique. I wouldnt know if any of my probes were correct either, because you cant achieve an accurate measurement in stripped down water. You need electrolytes to create electrolysis. Which was the point I was trying to make when answering Puffs original post. But it doesn't matter that much. 
Fin!


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## pcduck (Dec 3, 2009)

True enough *Cw* it does not matter, because who grows in just plain R/O water?

Once a grower adds any nutes, the electrolytes return creating electrolysis, thus your meter is then working without the false readings. 

I knew there was I reason I kept adding _Seachem Discus Buffer_ to my tanks for all them years


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