# Elephant Man's Grow Journal, 1st attempt



## Elephant Man

Ready, set, grow!

I am going to try to archive my grow here if you all don't mind. This is my first attempt so please feel free to jump in and help if you think I need it.

This is my mother and clone room:


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## Elephant Man

Sorry about crappy phone cam pics.  Can't see 14" stem fan in there, exhaust fan is 210 cfm.

I have several bagseed I germed like this:

Ordinary tupperware with wet paper towel wrapped loosely around seeds.  Placed to warm on cordless drill battery charger, quarter inch taproots in 3 - 4 days.

This pic is 1 week old, I use a germ heat pad now under tupperware.


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## Elephant Man

This journal will start kind of slow, so please bear with me, I am building veg and flower rooms as we speak.  My bagseed after 2 days in 50/50 Fox Farm Ocean Forest and Light Warrior.


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## Elephant Man

I have about 10 bagseed going, so far 100% germ rate.  Tomorrow I think my White Widow and AK48 will be ready for soil, next day Troublemaker and Biggie Small.  I think an 85/15 Ocean Forest/Light Warror might be better ratio, anyone agree?


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## Elephant Man

My veg room, first pics are before (what a mess).


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## Elephant Man

I have been shopping too:

General Hydroponics
  Flora Series Nutes
  Ebb and Gro 12 pot setup
  1000 watt Halide with 4' track and Cool Tube reflector

5100 btu AC is installed in veg room window

Hanna 24/7 ph + ppm moniter

Parts to fab my own cloner (dome, heat pad, air pump & stones)

1620 cfm attic gable fan

more to come


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## Elephant Man

Plan is to send the bagseed ahead in dirt while the mothers are veggin' and getting sexed (gonna need help with that in a few weeks), that way I can get my groove with lights, temps, and ventilation.

Once the mothers are ready to clone, I plan to run 12 in the ebb and gro in the veg room.  Then I plan to duplicate the pre-made ebb and grow in the bloom rooms.  I plan on 12 plants in each bloom room, each with 1000hps on tracks with a 12 hour flipper.

So 3 1000 watt lights, 2 on flipper, one month to veg, 2 months to bloom in alternating bloom rooms.

Sound like a plan?


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## Elephant Man

Pretty sure couple 1000 and an AC unit are all I am going to get out of this


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## Elephant Man

This is completely based on info I have found on this wonderful forum, with great attention paid to Stoney's current setup (multiroom, multistrain).

Right now may seem to be a bunch of store bought stuff, but I intend to duplicate this GH Ebb and Gro, with store bought parts (DIY) and once I get a little more experience, I plan to attempt an aeroponics setup (DIY).

Refer to this thread:

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6295

I got no responses on that, but I am going to try anyway.

I think I will redo the mother/clone room too,once the veg room is done.  I plan on overdriving flouros and remote mounting ballasts, also plan on taking advantage of in room window.

May seem like a big operation, but the goal is not big output.  I am more thinking in the summer it will be too hot or too expensive to run.


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## Elephant Man

Bagseed today, 5 days in dirt.


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## Elephant Man

Another pic of mother/clone room, Ebb and Gro controller, and AC installed in veg room.

I am thinking of building the other 3 rooms out of styrene, should keep in the cold, reflect light as well as panda poly, and I'm thinking if I duct tape it up really well - should keep bugs out.  Good idea?


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Wow man that is a very nice set up. Will be following this grow from beginning to end. Man i cant wait. *


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## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Wow man that is a very nice set up. Will be following this grow from beginning to end. Man i cant wait. *


 
Wow, really means alot coming from TBG , I certainly hope guys will hang around - I need all the help I can get.

Speaking of help, where is my green mojo?  I know TBG has plenty to spare!


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Here is some GREEN MOJO for ya.  *


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## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG!  Gonna save the first green hit for ya!

I found a flipper to cycle the 2 bloom lights in 2 seperate rooms, but I read on another forum that they can be harmful to your ballasts.  Something about the ballasts seeing power 24/7, but isn't that the case in the veg room?  Are we supposed to temporarily disconnect power periodically to save the ballast in the veg room?  Is there a better way to cycle 2 lights 12/12?  Or would I be okay to just interupt power to all the lights from time to time?


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## Elephant Man

Sorry for the early start, not going to be much going on yet.  Should have some nodes next week to post pics of.  When my first light gets here (better be next week) I should get the veg room done, waiting on the track to build the roof, pics of that could be cool.

Finally got my Hanna Combocheck (yes, I am an idiot for starting without it) and luckily my water is not that bad.  Tap after sitting read 6.8, round 400ppm.  Some store bought I have read 7.0, 28ppm, so I am going to continue to use tap, seedlings are doing great on it with great color.  Once I add nutes, I will try and bring it down a little, alot for the hydro.  Looking into RO setup...

Meanwhile here is one more pic of the clone room, and yes you cab guys, this is under my bed.  10 bagseed guinea pigs (1 week ahead), and 5 various real strains.


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## Elephant Man

I forgot to mention, in order to try and battle desert temps in the summer, I am considering trying to contain veg and both bloom rooms into closed setups.  Still researching concept but when I consider that:

I have the AC
Duct valves are easy
My lights are sealed
possible 100 degree temps daily thru summer (90+ at night)
pretty sure that by 3pm today (Oct 22) my AC in veg room would be on (warm climate)
No humidifier needed here
Already have Air bottle and can probably fit the rest of the co2 equip in my budget.

I can keep the rooms a little smaller by mounting everything outside, resevoirs, etc. (3 seperate rooms inside a big garage) to keep Co2 usage down, but need to make this decision soon.  I understand co2 will give me more heat and bug protection (garage).

Probably going to need a water chiller anyway, so wouldn't hurt to have resevoirs outside rooms (inside garage)

Thanks
Anyone add anything I missed?


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## Elephant Man

One week in the dirt - little bagseed baby girl looks healthy, doesn't she?


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## Elephant Man

Overnight growth pic and baby widow   I see 5 leaves on miss bagseed.


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats up Elaphant Man. If you are running your ballast 24/7 7 days a week it's a good thing to shut it off for about 15 minutes one of those days. Your babies are looking great by the way. Keep up the great work and keep those updates coming. *


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## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG, that's good news.  Some more pics in a couple of days (don't want to burden the server?), but everything seems to be going great!  So hard to resist watering more often when they are young, but they definately grow faster during the dry spell.

This bagseed could become very interesting, a few could have come from a guy a know who only buys and smokes the best.  One is definately very indica.


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## Elephant Man

12 day old bagseed


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Your babies are coming right along Elaphant Man. They are looking fat and nice and healthy. What more can you ask for except maybe some GREEN BUDDED FEMALES but that's down the road.   Looking good man, looking good. *


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## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG!  Some updated veg room pics for ya.


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## Elephant Man

Seasonal desert winds are a real pain, rh is dropping below 30% at times.  The predominantly indica strains are hating it and wilting but I think will be okay.

I converted to shoplights to overdriven and put the ballasts on 12' cords (remote) in the mother room.  Temps are still stable under 85 and doubled my lumens WOOHOO.


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Everything is looking great man. Now lets fill that sucker up with some beautiful ladies.  *


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## Elephant Man

Pic of overdriven flouros I promised Mutt.


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## Elephant Man

Wow, my ladies are still so symmetrical.  Where are you alternating nodes?

Got bored and built another cab to put all my potential mothers in till I change some stuff around.  I got alot more time than I realized.  Later on I will use this cabinet for sexing and clones.

Some pics of cab:


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## Elephant Man

Got real bored and threw this little blue mystic seedling in a DWC.


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## Elephant Man

First 3 pics are 20 day old bagseed, one definately more sativa.
4th pic is little miss biggie small.
5th pic is little miss blue mystic.
Both 'designer' seeds are 12 days old.


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Morning ElaphantMan. I see that the little ladies are looking nice and healthy this fine day. Keep up the great work man and those little ladies will be full of big fat buds before ya know it.  *


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## Mutt

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Pic of overdriven flouros I promised Mutt.


 
Thanks man, very huge help. Pic is worth a 1000 words when it comes to wiring. 
Won't let me give you more rep at the moment. but will when it lets me.


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## vitocorleone

Nice Plants Elephant Man!! very bushy...I guess that's from the OD? I noticed that you picked Cool Tube reflectors.....I'm thinking you chose cool tubes because they're...potentially...cooler....and you live in the desert...but any other reasons? I chose them too because I too am in a really hot area and I'm going to be stringing two 600 watt cool tubes together for my closet.....well i've already done it but it needs some work....in another post someone said you should "stay well away" from cool tubes because they don't have the coverage......my closet is really long and narrow- so I was thinking they'd be perfect but I'm feeling kind of discouraged about it now.....so.....do you have anything to say about cool tubes?      also, are you using a light mover? very nice setup....very...organized.....i will be watching dees one..


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## Elephant Man

Thanks everyone,

Vitorcorleone,
I wondered if I was the only one that thought these girls look like bonsai.  I attribute this to how close you can go with floros, these gals have never been less than 2 inches away, even with hotter OD bulbs.  They are growing horizontally! 
I actually have not read anything derogatory about cool tubes or light tracks, but I have noticed nobody uses them.  I have a non air cooled reflector I might cut up and mount the cool tube inside.  I figured I could use the track for now, and if I can keep temps under control, I might remove it and add second light.
I am having the worst luck in the hid department, first I ordered 1000 watt halide, then 2 bulbs before I got the horizontal bulb I wanted, and then to top it off - when the ballast finally did arrive - turns out it is a HPS!   I think I may just go buy a few lamps complete.  (So much for saving money on ebay!)
You are exactly right about the heat, I have been trying to haggle with a guy to get a deal on 3 liquid cooled reflectors.


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## vitocorleone

Dood....Elephant Man....Please don't get me started on ordering stuff- it went so wrong.....nothing came on time....I paid extra for shipping and it still took a month......it was something else...............wen u order stuff like this you need one thing- patience like buddah......

my comments on the bushiness....I think this is just what happens when you us flors as opposed to MH (pref) or sodium...you'll probably have some insane vertical growth when you switch over....for mine it was like a whole new plant was grown on top of the smaller floro one- with thicker branches that had an entirely different texture than the ones grown under floro....it was like it just left the other plant behind.....of course I did floro to outdoor.....


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## Elephant Man

Grrr.  I can only imagine how these gals would explode under hid, they should have been tanning over a week ago.  Some of them might never see hid though, after all, all the plants above are potential mothers.  I have about 15 total, 7 are designer seeds - just left out the pics of the stragglers.
If I have enough females, I will bud the rest.


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## Mutt

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Grrr. I can only imagine how these gals would explode under hid, they should have been tanning over a week ago. Some of them might never see hid though, after all, all the plants above are potential mothers. I have about 15 total, 7 are designer seeds - just left out the pics of the stragglers.
> If I have enough females, I will bud the rest.


 
Excellent method there dude. Pick the best bud the rest. 
I find if I use a cutting from the "prospective" mother. It is always easier to deal with than the Original seed plant. IMHO. I have never noticed a degredation in quality or potency in the first cutting.
I can't explain why but turned out to be much easier to handle.


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## Elephant Man

Mutt said:
			
		

> Excellent method there dude. Pick the best bud the rest.
> I find if I use a cutting from the "prospective" mother. It is always easier to deal with than the Original seed plant. IMHO. I have never noticed a degredation in quality or potency in the first cutting.
> I can't explain why but turned out to be much easier to handle.


 
Thanks Mutt! I am just trying to copying Stoney's method. I initially thought I was going to have a mother of each strain, but now I don't care. To me it is more important to focus on the plants that like me. I have 9 more widow seeds, I can always try her again later. I have the bagseed at least a week ahead so I can experiment and get my cloning method down before I start chopping away at the 'real' strains. I am going to try and sex the clones, rather than messing with the mothers, but I have at least a week to plan that.  Unless I can identify preflowers when I see them.

I started a seedling in a test/fun dwc bucket, out of boredom, and now I am thinking about some nft/aero testing too. My ebb and gro is still waiting for clones. I would like to dabble a little in all methods, another reason to start with dirt.


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## Inspector420

Wow your plants at 12 days seem great compared to what I got going on  Looks really good , and good to here you got compact plants off the floros... Nice work


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## Elephant Man

Inspector420 said:
			
		

> Wow your plants at 12 days seem great compared to what I got going on  Looks really good , and good to here you got compact plants off the floros... Nice work


 
Thanks Inspector, I have been following your journal too and I am impressed.  I have made mistakes in the beginning, poor drainage.  I rely on the weight method, works best for me.

I posted on your thread and this one about a couple of strains seeming more challenging/demanding than others, but now it seems they are all thriving.  Even widow is making a big comeback.  My mother room is going to be a jungle.  I guess the next step is which one clones the easiest.


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## Elephant Man

Been busy, busy, busy

Galaxy digital 400w switchable with Super Sun reflector.  Gonna add cooling parts in the morning, but right now cab is stable at 80 (room is 75).

Next pic is of my very temporary 'apartment style' Reverse Osmosis system , hanging on a towel rack no less , soon it will be in the garage.

Big bagseed girls are 22 days old and as soon as I get the light height right, they are gettin' some FF Grow Big.

Last 2 pics are 14 day old new girls on the block, Troublemaker Kush and mystery (Afghani?) Dr. Chronic Indoor Mix.

Tomorrow I hope to start my DIY cloner too .


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats up Elaphant Man. Yes by the looks of things you have been a busy man. All your babies and young ladies are looking great man. Nice and healthy what more can you ask for except for some fat buds.   Keep up the great work and keep those updates coming.  *


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## Mutt

Lookin great man. I was tempted my last order to get an indoor mix. but 2 of each sorta worried me about getting a female of each. next time though might just do that.


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## Treebeard

Hey Elephant man, you're grows looking great mate! Can't wait to see the finished product.  i was just wondering if you could explain whats the deal with the overdriven flouro's you showed earlier? just for the benefit of a novice grower like myself.  is it just a twin ballast? can the tubes cope with the extra power if so?? keep up the good work


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## Elephant Man

Thanks everyone!
Mutt: of the indoor, I tried 5 and 1 germed.  I was sent the 'troublemaker kush' as a freebie ($45) I believe, because the 'indoor' are old.  Pretty sure it is the seeds, all other 5 strains have had 100% success.

Offspring: Smash it up!  Here is a couple links to OD:
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=12011&d=1162872569
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6926

Basically just trick 4 bulb ballast into putting all 128 watts to one bulb.  Bulbs are said to live half as long (so figure 10,000 instead of 20,000 hours).
Great for closets and cabs and still way less heat than hid.


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## Treebeard

Thanks elephant man! I've got two 18w compact flouros just to start my grow, but there running from a single 70w ballast. does this mean they'll be using more than twice the wattage?


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## Elephant Man

Offspring_36 said:
			
		

> Thanks elephant man! I've got two 18w compact flouros just to start my grow, but there running from a single 70w ballast. does this mean they'll be using more than twice the wattage?


 
I assume they are 2x 2 foot bulbs in a fixture.

Actually, you can overdrive those 2 footers the same way.  Assuming you have adequate ventilation, I think temps on a couple 2 footers will only go up 2 degrees.

What you will have to do is go to your local home improvement store and pick up an 'Adavance REL-4P32-SC (yellow is 120v, red is 277v), home depot has them for about $19.  You only can run one.

You will have to connect both 2 footers in 'series' or in simpler terms, connect both terminals to both bulbs together on one end of your bullbs.  Essentially turning your 2x 2 foot bulbs into one 32watt 4 footer.  Then wire your 'new 4 footer' up the same way described in the other thread.

If the ballast is wired correctly, it will put out 128 watts, 64w each to the 2 foot bubs, referred to as 200% overdriven.  After heat loss you should be real close to 2x your starting lumens.

I hope that was easy enough to understand, I believe Biffdoggie has experience in this as well.  I would like to try to explain better, but I have alot to do today.  If I can get a little caught up this week, I will try to do a DIY.


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## Elephant Man

Some more pics, everyone got transplanted, air cooled the cab, changed mother room around and added another room where I think I am going to do a 2 level 360 degree SOG.

Big bagseed lady is 27 days old.


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Everything is looking great ElaphantMan. I see you just keep making your room better and better. Great job man keep it up.  *


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## Sin inc

nice your girls are looking good keep it up


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## Elephant Man

Thanks guys.

A fellow grower came by today and told me every plant I have is female!  Hope she was right.

Added another vortex today and started my test homemade aero cloner.  Not happy with the first version, gonna work on it some more over the next couple of days.  Here are some pics of what I put together on the first try.

Aeroflo misters and ProPump 275.


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## Elephant Man

Wow, so much work left to do.  Been moving everything to the garage, built a bubble cloner and took 6 clones from 3 plants, bagseed and biggie small who was almost misidentified as a male.  Threw in a little hydrogaurd with RO water and 4 of the 6 got powder (just for fun).

Got the 'test version 2' aerocloner built and is under pressure testing in the bathtub right now.  The new version will use it's own lid instead of the styrene I was messing with and the pump will be internal.  Should have some more pics of that going soon.

I've been following a few SOG grow threads and I think I am going to do a small one, like 40 under 400 watts.  I am going to try and use MG soil like my heroes THE BROTHERS GRUNT so it will be cheap.  Picked up a big bag of organic MG with .10/.05/.10 today and some perlite for $8.  No time release ferts except small amount of nitrogen, I believe.

If you ever read my first post, you will know this is as much about experimenting to me as it is about replacing pharmaceuticals.

That been said, I think I will be modifying my 'brand new unused' GH Ebb & Grow before these clones are even ready.  My aerocloner is actually a test for a much larger 'full cycle' aero project coming up (anyone ever heard of TAG or pod racing?).

Threw in some pics of the above, the 3 biggest mothers, 2 bagseed and biggie small.
A pic of aerocloner testing (device will run in container, not in the tub).
And a pic of my other 5 designer strains, White Widow, Troublemaker Kush, AK48, Blue Mystic, and Miss Mystery Indoor Mix.  All are days away from alternating nodes and probably 1 week from giving couple clones each.  Everybody has been getting 1800 ppm of Fox Farm Grow Big every other watering for about a week.

Sorry 3 pages and still no bud pics .


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## Elephant Man

More stuff:

I got my GH Ebb & Grow pretty cheap without the hydroton.  After a little research I discovered I can use lava rocks, I mixed in some river pepples too (1/2).  4 bags for first run of 6 buckets cost me a whopping $16 as opposed to 3 bags of hydroton at $50 each.  If you decide to try this also, get ready for a full day rinsing to get clear water.  At first there is so much color you would think the rocks are melting, but keep stirring and they will come clean.  I think I will run them through a florakleen rinse too.

The next 5 pics are of my finished 'version 2' homemade autocloner, should be able to half fill it next week.

I tossed a few straggling bagseed today, I have 11 potential mothers still, 6 designer strains and the rest are bagseed.  I was moving some stuff around and decided to get a family photo.


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats up Eman. The ladies are looking great. Man you are one building fool. Everytime i come in your journal it seems you have built something new.   Grow is looking great man keep it up.  *


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## Treebeard

Hey elephant man, your grow is looking real nice. as always i have another question, could you explain the process behind your auto-cloner an how it was made  etc??


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## Elephant Man

Offspring_36 said:
			
		

> Hey elephant man, your grow is looking real nice. as always i have another question, could you explain the process behind your auto-cloner an how it was made etc??


 
Yeah, absolutely. It is not my idea, I got it from another site . I will do a DIY, but first I have to get it to work . The basics are copying an ezclone ($300+), aeroponic atmosphere supposed to speed things a little, reduce medium, reduce additives etc. Supposedly with aeroponic cloning, humidity domes and foliar misting are not necessary. You can get misters at hydro shop, my local store has several types (I am experimenting with 2) but I also have some misters I bought at Home Depot (I'll explain later why they aren't the best though).  The aeroponic spinners will work too.

Based on any 200-300 gallon pump, misters, pvc, container. You could even use 1/2 inch hose, I am using pvc because I am practicing for another upcoming project I will describe later. Of course, can be scaled up or down.

Hypothetically, if you calculate pump gph and mister gph you can actually use the pump to control water temperature, this where I am still experimenting. Of course, I could just add a $10 aquarium heater, but I will keep rebuilding it until it works the way I want. If anyone wants to try this, make sure you get the lowest gph rated mister you can find, and I can help you figure the rest if you need.

You could very easily put one of these together with 1/2 inch hose, there is a reason why mine is so complicated. It is testing and practice for a TAG experiment soon.

And thanks TBG, in my introduction post and 2nd post in hydro section I explained a little about my overly scientific 'mechanical' nature, I can't help but tinker with stuff .  I guess if I am successful, my goal would be to eliminate the need to replenish supplies.  I would like to eventually try and go mediumless, foam or neoprene full cycle, and who knows, maybe after enough learning I can try and make my own nutes.  I don't mind initial cost, but I am not happy about the constant need for rockwool, hydroton, soil, whatever.


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## Elephant Man

More DIY:

I learned I can make my own ph down (never needed up).  Go to Home depot, pool shop, or auto store and pick up Muriatic acid or battery acid.

BE VERY CAREFUL WITH THIS STUFF, EYE PROTECTION, GLOVES.  DO NOT OPEN IT INDOORS, IT WILL BURN THE HAIR OUT OF YOUR LUNGS.  Please read all precautionary warnings on the product before you buy it, make sure you know what you will be dealing with.

Ok, still with me?  One gallon of this stuff will make 30 gallons of ph down.  Take one gallon of filtered water.  Pour out 8 ounces.  VERY CAREFULLY pour in 8 ounces of your acid and you are done.  From what I understand, this will dilute the acid to 20-30%, I can't remember, but what is important is that at this ratio your 'homemade ph down' will actually be less acidic than the store bought ph down, and safer too.

I got my acid at the depot, cost me $8 for 2 gallons, makes 60 gallons.  Last time I checked, name brand ph down was $10+.

DIY #2:

A while back, when starting out, I thought I was going to score some deals on used stuff on ebay.  I bought a 1kw diamond MH setup with hood and remote ballast for $99 + shipping.  After a huge ordeal, 2 months later the dude sends me the setup - with an HPS ballast.  Ordinarily no big deal, but while I was waiting, I had ordered 2 1kw MH bulbs ($$$).  I actually bought 2 400 watt galaxy setups too while waiting.

So after about a week researching, trying to figure out how to convert this ballast to MH, I stumbled upon an old thread on how to do this.  Basically, if your ballast is hps and is equipped with the correct transformer, you can go in and delete the igniter (or put it on a switch) and run a MH with it.  Mine has been burning now for about 8 hours, hortilux eye bulb.  If anyone wants to try this one, I can link you to some info, but I am not an electrician, so no detailed DIY on this one.


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## Elephant Man

Really don't like the 1kw light, too much added heat.  I have a 6 inch vortex on it with 8 inch ducting and my ac set to 86 came on within an hour, at night .  I ran a 400 in same room with no additional cooling and never went over 80.  I think I would rather have 2 400's in there.

Pics of the ebb and flood room, 1kw Hortilux eye on 4' light track, 'homemade jimmy rigged air cooled hood' with 6 inch vortex.  5000 btu ac, and 16 inch fan.  There are ducts built into the room because in the summer, I am going to try to seal all this together and add co2, still have couple rooms to finish.  Gonna call this the 'flood' room .

Mothers are in here tanning for the time being .


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## Elephant Man

One more DIY , this one is for the DWC guys:

In the picture below, you can see I have 2 air pumps tied together, very simple redundant air pumps.  I doubt these pumps ever fail, but I will bet the big DWC guys have an extra laying around .  If either pump fails, or loses power, the other will still maintain airflow to all lines both are connected to, the gang valve is just a big 'tee'.  If you have multiple pumps for multiple containers, you can tie them all together this way.  The one way valves will keep the pumps from pressuring against each other.


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## HGB

been peek'n in here at ya grow and love your DIY stuff... just thought i would ramble about ph control. 

I understand  how your doing it but not real clear on why one wouldn't  spend the same amount for a lifetime of ph down with GH dry products  .. got a 1 pound tub 5 years ago and cant tell i used much out of it and i grow indoor and outdoor hydro both weed and vegi's..

anyhow love'n your DIY stuff bro... great info in here thats for sure

grow on


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## Elephant Man

HGB said:
			
		

> been peek'n in here at ya grow and love your DIY stuff... just thought i would ramble about ph control.
> 
> I understand how your doing it but not real clear on why one wouldn't spend the same amount for a lifetime of ph down with GH dry products  .. got a 1 pound tub 5 years ago and cant tell i used much out of it and i grow indoor and outdoor hydro both weed and vegi's..
> 
> anyhow love'n your DIY stuff bro... great info in here thats for sure
> 
> grow on


 
Welcome aboard HGB! I guess I should have looked at the dry, never seen it. I know the bottled is not cheap, how much was the tub? Don't know if it matters now though, I will probably never run out of acid.

Everyone has their goals (or should). Mine is not max potency or yield, or simplicity. My goal is actually to not have to replenish supplies. I do not like constantly buying medium, nutes, soil etc, whether it be from local shop or online. I would like to try and go mediumless first, got a crazy aero thing coming up, then I have to try and learn as much as possible about nutrient balancing as possible. I am considering trying to make my own nutes one day. Proper reusing and amending soil would be nice too (for the mothers).

Ok, you seem like a really skilled grower, and I'm probably jumping of a cliff by mentioning this, but I have been considering using my own urine to nute. Hopefully I don't get flamed, but the info is out there, and it does work. I am afraid to even talk about this, but I feel the majority of growers know that whatever enters the plant is completely broken down and processed. And besides, nobody has to smoke my plants but me.

There are a great many reasons for me to do this, and I have been reading into it for quite some time. I am a very good candidate. Other than my physically broken back, I am in perfect health, I eat very well. No alcohol, processed food, soda, stuff like that. If you do the research, you can actually control your own urine ph with the controlled consumption of proteins/vegetable matter. Sounds like fun. As freaky as it sounds, urine is completely sterile when leaving the body and actually, IMO, alot less gross than bat guano, fish emulsion, or petroleum based chemicals. Good idea to get some urine test strips to check for any kind of urinary infections first, which is probably not a bad idea anyway.

I'm going to post up some of the info I found for those who are surely going to freak out (I did the first time I heard of this). From what I understand, this is from the now defunkt forum Overgrow.com:

See next post, won't fit here.

Thanks HGB for posting here, I was getting lonely. You gave me the courage to bring this out in the open .


----------



## Elephant Man

The following is a grow faq contribution that I had a rather large thread about on OG I thought that I would share it with you all since you have been so welcoming for us OG refugee's. I was able to recover my origional sumbition through a google search and viewing the cached version. go figure. 
-----------------------------------------------------------------
*Can I use My Urine as a Fertilizer?*

Sure you can. In fact Sweden has tested a full scale urine &#8216;recycling&#8217; program. Among their findings they have discovered that urine is a complete fertilizer for farm use, lowers the environmental impact of wastewater, improves recirculation of the 3 main nutrients, and that the hygienic risks are negligible if handled properly. Nature has been making use of urine for centuries before humans had even mastered the art of agriculture. Animal wastes contain nutrients that plants needs, and in return they provide us with nutrients we need. It is a circle that has been broken only in recent years, but before you go using your pots as a urinal you will need to be aware of how to use your urine. DO NOT PEE DIRECTLY ON OR AROUND YOUR PLANTS. You will burn them. The following will detail everything that you need to know to be successful.

*Use in Soil*
Pure concentrated urine will burn your plants; it must first be diluted with water. Typically a ratio of 1 part urine to 10 parts water is effective. Some have gotten away with a slightly higher ratio on unusually hungry girls. It is recommended that you do not exceed 1:10, even though a nutrient burn with urine is rare, the smell can be unpleasant, and salts will build quickly, at higher concentrations. For younger plants start with a ratio of 1:20-1:30 and work your way up. As always do not fertilize germinating seedlings. Wait until the cotyledons (little round leaves) have fallen off before beginning any fertilizer regiment. Also it is not needed every water, every other or every third is sufficient. Let your plant do the talking, if she is a nice dark green then lay off a little, use a weaker solution and lower frequency, if she is getting on the yellow side then step up the strength a bit. Note: Urine can have a high salt content, depending upon your diet. I recommend that when you water with plain water, you allow some run off (approximately 1/8-1/4 volume of your pot) and toss it, this should rid your soil of excess salts.

*Use in Hydro*
About 8 ounces (1cup) for every 3 gall or reservoir water has been effective (thanks foto) but you should adjust according to your conditions, plant needs, and smell issues. The nitrogen in urine (ammonia and urea) must first be consumed by bacteria as food. The bacteria then store the nitrogen in the bacterial protoplasm. As the Bacteria die, they liberate the stored nitrogen as nitrate, sort of like a time release capsule, to be taken up by the plants. In soil this is no problem but in hydro setups there may not be enough bacteria culture to breakdown the urea and ammonia. Therefore it will be a good idea to drip your Res water through a porous material that can support a bacteria culture such as lava rocks, ceramic bio filter material, foam, sponge. It is up to you; it does not need to be fancy just able to support beneficial bacteria. This step may not be required if your root mass is large enough or if you have a trickle system through a porous medium like rockwool or coco. To get a good start on your bacteria culture you can get some bio-filter booster liquid from any aquarium shop. This liquid contains "good" bacteria that will help you develop a thriving population use as directed (usually a few drops per gal.)

*Fermented or Fresh (By Klompen)*
Traditionally, urine was kept in a garden in a large barrel. Sweet smellnig flowers were typically planted around this barrel to mask any odors. This fermentation does have some great benefits, such as breaking down the urea into more useable amoniates. Also, it has the benefit of allowing the salts to settle out of it to a large degree. This settling of the salt does take some micronutes out as some of them bind to the salt, but it's a minimal loss. The odor profile of the urine is changed quite a bit by the fermenting process as well. It is not a better smell, but instead a "richer" smell.

There are downsides. Chief downside is the fact that you must leave a container of urine sitting around. Guests don't always like finding out what you've got sitting in that mysterious bottle. As mentioned above, a small amount of micronutes are lost from settling. You will also lose a bit of the urine at the bottom of the bottle because it has the settled substances in higher amounts. One other downside is that you will need to have two containers ideally, since you will not want to be putting fresh urine into a bottle full of fermented urine.

*Nutrient Levels* (approximation, will vary according to diet)
Alanine, total ..... 38 mg/day
Arginine, total ..... 32 mg/day
Ascorbic acid ..... 30 mg/day
Allantoin ..... 12 mg/day
Amino acids, total ..... 2.1 g/day
Bicarbonate ..... 140 mg/day
Biotin ..... 35 mg/day
Calcium ..... 23 mg/day
Creatinine ..... 1.4 mg/day
Cystine ..... 120 mg/day
Dopamine ..... 0.40 mg/day
Epinephrine ..... 0.01 mg/day
Folic acid ..... 4 mg/day
Glucose ..... 100 mg/day
Glutamic acid ..... 308 mg/day
Glycine ..... 455 mg/day
Inositol ..... 14 mg/day
Iodine ..... 0.25 mg/day
Iron ..... 0.5 mg/day
Lysine, total ..... 56 mg/day
Magnesium ..... 100 mg/day
Manganese ..... 0.5 mg/day
Methionine, total ..... 10 mg/day
Nitrogen, total ..... 15 g/day
Ornithine ..... 10 mg/day
Pantothenic acid ..... 3 mg/day
Phenylalanine ..... 21 mg/day
Phosphorus, organic ..... 9 mg/day
Potassium ..... 2.5 mg/day
Proteins, total ..... 5 mg/day
Riboflavin ..... 0.9 mg/day
Tryptophan, total ..... 28 mg/day
Tyrosine, total ..... 50 mg/day
Urea ..... 24.5 mg/day
Vitamin B6 ..... 100 mg/day
Vitamin B12 ..... 0.03 mg/day
Zinc ..... 1.4 mg/day

approx 2 liters is excreted /day.

Human urine is a great source of auxin, in fact one of the most potent auxins can be found in human urine; indol-3-acetic acid or IAA. Among many things auxin is known to stimulate flower growth, promote ethylene production, and stimulate root growth.

I have gone though an entire grow using urine without any deficiencies, but many feel that during flowering your phosphorus levels are too low. If you desire, a bloom fertilizer may be used in tandem during the flowering phase.
A tea made with the Russian comphry plant (3.6-1-10.6) is an excellent organic bloom fertilizer for those of us who do not wish to use chemicals at any step. Also a tea of bone meal, or bone meal in your soil mix is probably the best way to add Phosphorus.

In addition I would, and have, cut back on the amout of urine used in the flower period (both frequency and consentration). There is some evidence that Nitrogen in excess will inhibit flower growth, and increase your 12/12 time.

Your body can only absorb about 10-15% of a multivitamin/mineral pill the rest is flushed out with your urine. Taking a multivitamin/mineral about 3 hours before your urine collection can give you many vital micro nutrients.

A balanced and healthy diet means balanced and healthy urine. Keep fit and eat well and you should have nutrient rich urine and happy plants.

*PH*
The PH value for human urine can range anywhere from 5 and 8.5 but most often is found between 5.5 and 7.5 in healthy individuals with a balanced diet. A value of 6 is average. High protein diets can lower PH (more acidic) and Vegetarian diets raise PH values (more alkaline). Urinary infection will increase PH value. Test your PH and lower it (coffee, lemon juice, or vinegar are great organic PH downs) if any higher that 6, especially if in a hydro system, or increase your protein consumption. If the soil you are using is fairly acidic, like peat moss you will want to make sure you are not dropping it too low with acidic urine; dolomite lime can help you buffer this up, or increase your vegetable intake and lower your protein.

*Pro's*

It Works
Tried and true. In my (and a few others) opinion it works as good as commercial fertilizers when used properly. A side by side clone to clone test has not yet been done (to my knowledge), but there is no question that urine produces healthy, frosty, dank nugs, as good as anything out there.

Cheap
You can't beat free can you? Not likely. Weather you are growing for pleasure or profit saving money is something that I think we all desire. If you have no problem with spending the money, then go right ahead. Call it ghetto if you want, I call it natures gift, and I intend to make the best of it.

Available
It&#8217;s like fertilizer on tap. No hasty visits to the hydro/garden shop. No &#8220;I&#8217;ll have to do without for a while&#8221;. It&#8217;s always there when you need it.

Environmentally friendly
Many of us would like to preserve the earth. Well organic fertilizers are the way to go if this is part of your ethos. Chemical fertilizers are produced from petroleum products, natural gas, and coal. Minerals are made more soluble with acids. After the compounds are used by the plant the contaminants left over in the soil can become poisonous and over time can leave the land depleted and &#8216;dead&#8217;. Using organic fertilizers closes a cycle of life that has existed for millennia. We feed the plants and they feed us, much like the oxygen and carbon dioxide cycle.

Compost
Urine in your compost pile is probably the best way to get extra Nitrogen into your mix.

*Con's*

Continued next post


----------



## Elephant Man

*Con's*

Eww factor
If you are disgusted by this then maybe you should stick to chemical fertilizers. No matter how many times I tell people that urine is sterile in the bladder, and is only dangerous if compromised by fecease or other pathogen carrying substances, some just cannot get over it. People also believe that the urine will somehow end up being smoked yet they have no qualms about smoking the chemicals or other organic ferts. All fertilizers are broken down by the plant, used in chemical reactions and changed. There is no way that you will be 'smoking' your fertalizers, whatever you use, as long as you arent foliar spraying in flower, but then you wouldnt do that with fish emulsion or chemicals now would you?

Salt content
Human urine will contain various salts. Depending on diet your urine can contain up a max of 2.2% salt, this is because the human kidney cannot concentrate salts to greater than 2.2%. On average salt content will be about 30g/L Total dissolved solids constitute about 5% of urine volume. As previously stated it will be to your benefit to allow some run off when watering and toss it, this will rid your soil of excess salts.

Infections and parasites
Hygienic risks are negligible, unless the urine comes in contact with pathogens after leaving the body. The urine of a healthy person is sterile in the bladder. If you have a urinary tract, or kidney infection your urine will contain bacteria that can infect others. It is quite impossible for the infection to be passed through the plant, bud or smoke. If you are sick the majority of pathogens that can transmit disease will die within 24 hours of leaving the body. Infections will increase both your salt content and PH values, and can contain bacteria that consume nitrates.

Smell
Urine does have a distinctive unpleasant odor. If you mix it properly (1:10-20) then there should be no problems. I have only ever had a smell issue when I mixed it entirely too strong. If you have ever used fish emulsion, blood meal, or guano/manure you should be used to offensive odors and should not have a problem using urine.

Imprecise
Urine fertilizing is not an exact science. Exact nutrient levels and concentrations cannot be accurately established without the proper equipment. Notwithstanding some trial and error is necessary in every fertilizer regiment. Certain strains can have differing tolerances, different growing conditions and methods vary in their ability to deliver nutrients reliably.
------------------------

Thanks Foto420, Fuze, me2, carfreak69, Klompen, satghost, Seu Edmilson and everyone that have open minds on this subject.

http://www.geocities.com/impatients...dFertilizer.htm
gen info

http://www.liquidgoldbook.com/
(General info, great book)

http://www.plant-hormones.info/auxins.htm(auxins)

http://faq.gardenweb.com/faq/lists/...5416013761.html
(Cheap ferts)

http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/...n/excretion.htm
(salt content)

http://www.craigmedical.com/urinalysis_techs.htm
(ph)

www.iees.ch/EcoEng011/downloads/EcoEng011_F2.pdf
(Swedish findings)

http://www.mst.dk/project/NyViden/2001/11040000.htm
(characterization of urine)

http://www.anarac.com/fertilizersewage_sludge.htm
(chem. ferts)

http://www.iees.ch/EcoEng011/EcoEng011_F2.html
(gen info/ hygenic risks)

http://www.all-natural.com/urine.html
(nutes found in urine)
_Last edited by BuddyNugs : 02-09-2006 at 05:43 PM._


----------



## laylow6988

I am going to use the traditional method of pissing... a tree. Not my pot.


----------



## Elephant Man

laylow6988 said:
			
		

> I am going to use the traditional method of pissing... a tree. Not my pot.


 
Well, I'm not sure how that information is useful to me , but thanks for stopping by .

If anyone elses chooses not to read the info above, please understand that I do not piss in my plants pots, if you do this they will get burned.


----------



## Elephant Man

Moving on:

I have decided to try another experiment , I put my overdriven flouros into my cabinet, along with 2 regular shop light fixtures for side lighting.  I am going to do an all flouro grow, just for fun.

Cabinet is 2' x 4' and 6' high.  4 overdriven bulbs burning 128 watts each (approx 6k lumens each) and 4 ordinary bulbs burning 40 watts each (3050 lumens each), mixed warm and cool bulbs.  Should be about 36k+ lumens and approximately 672 watts.  As you can see, this is not anywhere as efficient as an HID.  I have a 400 watt switchable that was in there, but I am doing this for the cabinet and closet growers out there.  I get alot of questions about flouros, and would like to have some experience to speak from.  When veggin' my mothers in the beginning, I was very impressed with their growth under my flouros (check pics in thread beginning).  I actually wish I had never put them under the HID.  They were very compact before with VERY tight node spacing, and the HID seems to be changing that, even at minimal distance from plants.  I'm guessing and hope to show that distance from light can be more important than most would think.  Also somehow I came up with 11 females out of 11 plants (even the bagseed) under flouros, not sure if there is a connection there, but definately a good thing.  Pic of cab below.

On the aerocloner, I decided to put that on the back burner for now, next months I should have more clones than I can use, so I will go back to that then.  For now, I started a few in the very basic propogation setup that most hydro stores sell, don't know what it is called, just a tray and dome.  6 oz cups of soil, seedling heating mat underneath, root powder, very dilute MG transplant solution.  Pic below


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Welcome aboard HGB! I guess I should have looked at the dry, never seen it. I know the bottled is not cheap, how much was the tub? Don't know if it matters now though, I will probably never run out of acid.



thx for the welcome EM, think i paid around 11 bucks for the dry concentrate or so.... good investment i thought, after a couple years use i knew i wouldnt run out in this life time  





> Ok, you seem like a really skilled grower, and I'm probably jumping of a cliff by mentioning this, but I have been considering using my own urine to nute. .



wouldnt call my self skilled at all but more just open for ideas... and ya you proubly are jumping of a cliff on that one  




> I'm going to post up some of the info I found for those who are surely going to freak out (I did the first time I heard of this). From what I understand, this is from the now defunkt forum Overgrow.com:
> 
> See next post, won't fit here.
> 
> Thanks HGB for posting here, I was getting lonely. You gave me the courage to bring this out in the open



indeed you have done your research on this and provided some great info

most peeps cant get past that it's there own urine but have no problem with any poo at all in there pots go figure huh...

thks for share'n your info on this as i think its great.. one can never stop learning in there life time and to close your eyes becouse one doesnt understand seems such a waste to me...

I'm trying to get my head around living organics right now and was wondering if you had any input on this as well... if you have the time that is 

keep up the great work and grow on


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## Elephant Man

Thanks HGB, I'm glad to see there are open minds out there .  Funny how after 10 years of random drug testing, I seem to have lost my fear of urine.  I'll bet more than one person on here has carried someone else's pee in their pocket before .

Living organics?  Is that like growing in a fish tank?  Or referring to biological medium?  I would love to try both one day, the lava rocks are supposed to be great for supporting bene's in hydro.

Always got time for some tech talk, I will be better at it as time rolls on, I have really learned alot in the 6 weeks  I have been injured.  Just imagine what I will know in a year.


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Living organics?  Is that like growing in a fish tank?  Or referring to biological medium?



biological medium  broham.... I have been watching a fellows work on this  for about a year now and he is try'n to pound it into my head like hehe.... i will get it one day just like i did with hydro... search -REv in google... he is on staff at skunk mag as well as does some work shops on a couple forums.... good read i think and worth the search.... i have some links if need be to a few mags he writes in and what not[/QUOTE]




> Always got time for some tech talk, I will be better at it as time rolls on, I have really learned alot in the 6 weeks  I have been injured.  Just imagine what I will know in a year.



sorry to hear your injured, been off work 1 year now myself do to back probs  

will be about like

grow on


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## Elephant Man

I entered '-REv' in google, but got nothing, I am not the best at finding stuff on the net, I just lurk at a few other forums.  I only post on this one though, freindliest MJ growing forum I found:yay: .  Can you give me a small description of how that works?  Bene's living in the medium providing nutes?

There is alot of stuff I have been trying to catch up on, just gotta take it step by step.  I still know nothing about breeding, phenos, training - lots of things to research still, but I'm happy as long as I stay one step ahead of my girls for now .

Speaking of which, I discovered another mistake I made long ago.  I should have started 2 or 3 of a strain instead of one each.  I should have topped my mothers long ago too.  Reason being, by the time I can take 12 clones from one mother, she will probably be 3' tall .  Not entirely a disaster, but something to note.  I know there are a few ways around this, I am presently trying to choose one.  I would really rather not do any LST on my first grow, I want to see them 'natural' at least once.  I have some clones going now, I'm guessing when the time comes, I can take more, and just slow the others down (colder temps) to catch up.  I wanted to start with my 'flood room' but I can't take 12 clones from the same strain yet.  I guess I am going to start the flouro project first, in individual dirt pots, I should be okay with different strains.  I've been hacking away at the 2 biggest bagseed moms (guinea pigs) every 3 days I think without any sign of stress, but I'm not sure I have seen a time frame posted detailing how long to wait before attempting to take more.  Nice to have a few girls to try stuff on first.

I'm going to try and start building my TAG room in the next couple of days, the other 2 are pretty much ready.  I am thinking of trying a little experiment on my GH Ebb and Grow too.  I wanna install bigger drain lines, and I am thinking of converting half of the buckets (6 of 12) into an aero system, but all still connected using the cycle draining and original res.  Hard to describe, but I will post plenty of pics.  Should be interesting to see 12 of the same strain, running off of the same res, but half aero and half ebb and flood.


----------



## HGB

say EM pretty sure it's ok to post these links for you here... if not sorry mods

rolanterry and the magick kindom might bring up more in google but here's a couple links for you to chew into  

click 

click2

that should give a good jump off spot like bro if you care to follow his work and style.... tis a good read like


----------



## Elephant Man

HGB said:
			
		

> say EM pretty sure it's ok to post these links for you here... if not sorry mods
> 
> rolanterry and the magick kindom might bring up more in google but here's a couple links for you to chew into
> 
> click
> 
> click2
> 
> that should give a good jump off spot like bro if you care to follow his work and style.... tis a good read like


 
I'm not sure about the link thing either, but I don't mind them posted here.  Strange, it wouldn't let me look at the second link, but after reading the first link, I may have to register there to see more .  I've heard of the tea thing before, I'm guessing this is a little different though, looks like they are brewing up microbial stew.  Can you tell me how they are bubbling?  Is the mix doing the reaction on it's own, or are they cooking it with some kind of heat source?  Will this work in hydro?

I don't really know if I will try this soon, but you have my interest.  Looks like there are a few ingredients I would have to get, which is moving away from my goal .  I will look into whatever I can find easily though.  I picked up some bone meal today, just in case I decide to try the pee thing.

That stew looks freakin' nasty , bubblin' sespool  IMO a little grosser than urine, but I am not afraid.


----------



## Elephant Man

Not sure if I have raised anyone's curiousity with the urine thing (don't blame you keeping quiet) but I found a website based entirely on the subject.

http://www.liquidgoldbook.com/

An open mind is truly a wonderful thing...


----------



## KADE

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Not sure if I have raised anyone's curiousity with the urine thing (don't blame you keeping quiet) but I found a website based entirely on the subject.


 
The urine information has been posted before... I take a leak around my OD plants... they do like it, hands down.. and outdoors ur not gonna over fert doing it.
But indoors... nooo way.. smells like piss.... and basically everything in it is already contained in the $$ I spent for nutes. If my res/drip tubing wouldn't get a smell i'd consider it perhaps. 
I dont even like molasses from the way it eventually gums up pumps... (but i still use it during flushing end of grows)


----------



## Elephant Man

KADE said:
			
		

> The urine information has been posted before... I take a leak around my OD plants... they do like it, hands down.. and outdoors ur not gonna over fert doing it.
> But indoors... nooo way.. smells like piss.... and basically everything in it is already contained in the $$ I spent for nutes. If my res/drip tubing wouldn't get a smell i'd consider it perhaps.
> I dont even like molasses from the way it eventually gums up pumps... (but i still use it during flushing end of grows)


 
I agree, I still have not decided whether or not to try it, but I do have the proper conditions.  Everything is in the garage now, and I have 4 oscilating fans, 2 vortex, and a huge 'attic gable fan' exhausting out the roof, don't think I would smell anything .  If I do decide to try it, it will be on my soil grow.


----------



## newgreenthumb

Hey you all inspire me.  Thanks to those like TBG, Hick and Stony Bud and others to many to name we will have our Phd's in MJ soon enough.  Rick James (R.I.P.) would be proud of us for keeping Mary Jane alive and well.  Keep it up!!!


----------



## Elephant Man

newgreenthumb said:
			
		

> Hey you all inspire me. Thanks to those like TBG, Hick and Stony Bud and others to many to name we will have our Phd's in MJ soon enough. Rick James (R.I.P.) would be proud of us for keeping Mary Jane alive and well. Keep it up!!!


 
Thanks for stopping by NGB!  Yeah, I don't know if I will ever be as good as those guys, but I am having a great time learning, and bonding with my girls.

Rick James! LOL, yeah, I am a superfreak too, just without all the hard drugs and violence.

I have been messing around with the lady's and their feeding and finally got those vibrant green tops everyone else has, they were looking so happy today, seemed begging for a little runway action .

So here are some pics, all the designer strains (Dr. Chronic) are 29 days old today

pic 1 is AK48
pic 2 is Biggie Small
pic 3 is Indoor Mix (potluck or something, look Afghani?)
pic 4 is White Widow (I made the mistake of starting her in that great big pot )
pic 5 is Blue Mystic (a little droopy, just transplanted her earlier today)

Quart of Fox Farm Grow Big for reference.
Enjoy!

edit almost forgot, pic 6 Troublemaker Kush


----------



## Elephant Man

And the 2 biggest bagseed, 34 days old

These are of course all mothers.


----------



## newgreenthumb

looking good I must say.  Treat them ladies right and they will return the favor.  If they get to the runway I might have to peek up their skirts, lol. :aok:


----------



## Elephant Man

newgreenthumb said:
			
		

> looking good I must say. Treat them ladies right and they will return the favor. If they get to the runway I might have to peek up their skirts, lol. :aok:


 
LOL, I took a peek today, but saw a big trunk  .


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> LOL, I took a peek today, but saw a big trunk  .


*ROFLMAO Eman.   May i say your ladies are looking very healthy. Nothing like a big bush i say.   Whatever your doing keep doing it because your ladies are beautiful. :aok: *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *ROFLMAO Eman.  May i say your ladies are looking very healthy. Nothing like a big bush i say.  Whatever your doing keep doing it because your ladies are beautiful. :aok: *


 
Thanks TBG!  That really means alot to me, I am constantly inspired by your incredible talent at growing and photography.

I don't exactly know what I am doing right, I thought I might learn a little about nutrient balancing from this first batch, but they don't really seem to care what I do .  They just grow.  I have barely any discoloration or spots or anything.  Certainly not enough to change anything.

I'm sure all that will change once I start the hydro.

I do wish I had started shaping them much sooner, the big bagseed is just that, BIG.  Once I'm sure I can clone, I might have to flower her.

Since she is just a guinea pig, Is there any way I can gradually trim her down without LST or stressing her to herm?  Too late to try and bonsai?


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Thanks TBG! That really means alot to me, I am constantly inspired by your incredible talent at growing and photography.
> 
> I don't exactly know what I am doing right, I thought I might learn a little about nutrient balancing from this first batch, but they don't really seem to care what I do . They just grow. I have barely any discoloration or spots or anything. Certainly not enough to change anything.
> 
> I'm sure all that will change once I start the hydro.
> 
> I do wish I had started shaping them much sooner, the big bagseed is just that, BIG. Once I'm sure I can clone, I might have to flower her.
> 
> Since she is just a guinea pig, Is there any way I can gradually trim her down without LST or stressing her to herm? Too late to try and bonsai?


*Sure just trim as if you were taking clones from her and just toss them away. Be sure that you don't trim more than 30% at a time just like clones. We do it all the time to keep the our plants small.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Sure just trim as if you were taking clones from her and just toss them away. Be sure that you don't trim more than 30% at a time just like clones. We do it all the time to keep the our plants small.  *


 
Thanks TBG will do .  What about the stem?  Can I hack 30% off of the top?

A small update on the 1kw MH.  After several days of messin' with it, I finally got temps were I want them.  I have been steadily dropping it on the girls too, and now I am at 12 inches away with no burn:yay: .  I am not sure if this is because of my 400+ cfm fan, or the light track but I like it!

I have the hood open acting as my intake, and I have a thermostat on the fan for those cold temps that will surely get here one day .


----------



## Zarnon

From what I'm reading the mag content is 100mg to 2.5 mg for potassium.  That is a really different ratio to conventional nutes where you'll have 8% K to 1% max Magnesium.   Manganese is also extreemly high ratio as it is a trace mineral in ferts (running about .001 percent). 

So I would not say these are high in salts,  I would say these are extreemly high in salts.  I have seen too much mag really mess up a grow from people who were trying to correct a deficiency. 

This link you posted http://www.anarac.com/fertilizersewage_sludge.htm
was not a promoter of this method but warns of the dangers of using sewage sludge as a fertilizer _because_ of heavy metal contaminants (although not clear if this is because it includes industrial waste or not). 

Other than that,  it looks like the NPK would work,  although there is going to be variation in amount and concentration given what you've eaten (the kidney excretes salts to keep balance in our blood,  esp sodium and potassium).  Personally I need to know exactly what ratio of a nute is going into my mix including minerals in case I develop problems. 

I think your idea of a controlled study is wise.  Mainly because most of these links are anectdotal in nature ("I tried it and it works"). 

Prost!


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> From what I'm reading the mag content is 100mg to 2.5 mg for potassium. That is a really different ratio to conventional nutes where you'll have 8% K to 1% max Magnesium. Manganese is also extreemly high ratio as it is a trace mineral in ferts (running about .001 percent).
> 
> So I would not say these are high in salts, I would say these are extreemly high in salts. I have seen too much mag really mess up a grow from people who were trying to correct a deficiency.
> 
> This link you posted http://www.anarac.com/fertilizersewage_sludge.htm
> was not a promoter of this method but warns of the dangers of using sewage sludge because of heavy metal contaminants (although not clear if this is because it includes industrial waste or not).
> 
> Other than that, it looks like the NPK would work, although there is going to be variation in amount and concentration give what you've eaten (the kidney excretes salts to keep balance in our blood, esp sodium and potassium). Personally I need to know exactly what's going in there in case I develop a problem.
> 
> I think your idea of a controlled study is wise. Mainly because most of these links are anectdotal in nature ("I tried it and it works").
> 
> Prost!


 
Thanks Zarnon, an excellent open minded opinion:clap: !  I have not actually made it through all of the links in that info I posted.  I am merely considering this right now, and your response was EXACTLY the type of answer I was looking for.  I have always been a very health oriented person, and I actually consume VERY little processed food at all.  I have always been aware of the high sodium contents in processed food sources, and never add salt to anything I prepare.  I don't even have any salt in the house, just pepper.  I would be interested in seeing an analysis of my own urine.  I am developing quite a bond with my ladies and the idea of a full circle connection between my health and theirs just really excites me.  I understand the related problems with excess salt build up, and actually that is the only thing stopping me from trying this right now.
I am sure there must be a solution, perhaps pre-mixing and 'sifting' off the top would help reduce some salts and excessive trace elements after they settle?  Thanks for your opinion of the analysis above, and for stopping by my journal:cool2: , you are welcome anytime!


----------



## Elephant Man

Oops, wanted to add;

In the article I posted, there is mention of possible Phosphate deficiency during flowering, and using bone meal to combat this.  I picked up some Schultz Bone Meal (6-12-0) but it seems to me, using this method, you wouldn't be wanting to add much nitrogen that late in flowering, especially when considering the 'time release' effects of urea or ammonium nitrate (can't remember which one ).  Is this product high in nitrate?  Or is bone meal in general high in nitrate?

I'm still waiting on clones, no way I will try this on the mothers .

Darn, I was so 'into' this discussion I broke my coffee pot.


----------



## laylow6988

Hey on those bagseed plants, you seeing any preflowers yet. I went through the post kinda quick, I hope I am notasking something that is already there. But after, what is it like 35 days from being in the pot? Do you think they are close to being able to be flowered? They are lookin pretty damn good. I am trying to figure out a timeline. I know 35 days seems kinda soon. But taking all things into consideration right now. Thinking X amount of room. Y amount of plants. Z Yield of plants. W time it takes to fully harvest. V how much smoked in that time. Price of pot on the street. Price grown including supplies. After all that I want to adjust my ways a bit. Damn, I am all up in your thread. Sorry about that. I'll get back to you. So how they lookin?


----------



## Elephant Man

laylow6988 said:
			
		

> Hey on those bagseed plants, you seeing any preflowers yet. I went through the post kinda quick, I hope I am notasking something that is already there. But after, what is it like 35 days from being in the pot? Do you think they are close to being able to be flowered? They are lookin pretty damn good. I am trying to figure out a timeline. I know 35 days seems kinda soon. But taking all things into consideration right now. Thinking X amount of room. Y amount of plants. Z Yield of plants. W time it takes to fully harvest. V how much smoked in that time. Price of pot on the street. Price grown including supplies. After all that I want to adjust my ways a bit. Damn, I am all up in your thread. Sorry about that. I'll get back to you. So how they lookin?


 
No, problem, ask all the questions you like! This is my first grow and I have filled this thread with all kinds of stuff from growroom setup, to DIY experiments . I tell ya, its fun to look back at all the crazy ideas I came up with along the way.
The bagseed did preflower first, probably at about 3 weeks . Probably somee kind of commercial strain bred to do that.
A couple actually still haven't preflowered, but I've got clones now from all of them, and If I get tired of waiting, I'll flip a clone and see whats up.

As far as the other questions, I am very excited, but not anxious at all, and your timing is perfect, I am trying to figure out what to do with who .
We learn from our mistakes, and I made a few, I should have started with one strain, maybe 2. 5 seeds of each, look for phenos I like, you get the idea. I should have left them under flouros and started training/shaping them long ago. A couple are pretty big. I know I will flip the 2 bagseed as soon as their clones take to transplant, they are just too much to handle, I got distracted when transplanting one of them long ago, and she sits too high in her pot .

As far as yield, well, I'm optomistic, but I would honestly just to be happy to make it that far . Don't plan on selling anything, have no idea what this stuff goes for on the street, I have freinds who grow that have taken care of me lately since my injury. I would love to be able to repay them one day, but like I said, I'm not thinking that far ahead. I love to experiment as much as I love to smoke, but this summer will most likely be too hot to grow, so I'm hoping to be able to put some aside.

Thanks for ridin' along with me, I'm sure there are others, I don't mind if they lurk, as long as they jump in if I start having problems .


----------



## Elephant Man

This is probably good news for alot of you, I decided not to do the urine thing.  IMO as great as it sounds, I'm about learning, and using urine, is not going to teach me enough about their specific needs.

I have experienced a few strange occurances along the way, and I think I know why.  Once it came time to feed my ladies, I tried to look for signs of deficiencies, and they never showed .  To this day, they have recieved very little food at all, yet done nothing but flourish.  I think I have a few beneficial microbial beasties in there, from my original soil mix, 50/50 FF ocean forest and light warrior.  Light warrior contains Mycorrhizae Fungi, and I believe they may be taking care of the plant for me, to some extent.
Look at the links HGB posted above for more info, with both of these guys help, I am going to give Living Organics a shot .

I also finished the DIY aerocloner, I couldn't get the pump I bought to create enough heat to keep the water where I wanted, so I copped out and bought an aqaurium heater .  Sometimes it's tough to stay ahead of the girls .  If there is enough interest, I will put up a DIY, once I see some roots .


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Look at the links HGB posted above for more info, with both of these guys help, I am going to give Living Organics a shot .



glad ya got some use out of those links bro.. and sorry about the first google search  

what's that on top of the cloner bro?  looks like metal  

grow on


----------



## Elephant Man

HGB said:
			
		

> glad ya got some use out of those links bro.. and sorry about the first google search
> 
> what's that on top of the cloner bro? looks like metal
> 
> grow on


 
Just a few peices of galvanized allthread I threw on there late last night to keep the lid down.  I was up too late taking clones and when I got up I replaced the allthread with water bottles .  I need a new container, this one is a little warped and leaks, but it should make a great base soilmix container  .

I won't be able to thank you enough if this reusing, composting, feeding beasties thing works out.  Using my food scraps and recycling soil is pretty good waste management (just like the urine thing) so it falls in line with my plan to recycle and minimize replenishing costs:yay: :yay: :yay: .


----------



## laylow6988

Yeah it sounds like it would work out well. I will do my own compost when I get out of the city. I can't wait to get out of the city. Get me some land to do some experimenting of my own. Can't wait to see your other pics from your DIY projects. I don't see them ending anytime soon. Let us know how the recycling goes. I'd like to know what kinds of things you add, how the PH reacts, any kind of foul smells that might occure. Any knowledge is good knowledge. Pass it on.


----------



## Zarnon

Yeah,  I think your goal to do something that is ecologically friendly and efficient is laudable.   I do not do the composting route but I'm sure there is plenty of info out there to get the mix you need.


----------



## learnin to gro

hey man looks like your pretty handy ill tell you when it comes to wood im handy but building a cloner or some of the other stuff you got. thats sweet man


----------



## Sin inc

Keep Making Things So I Can Try To Make Them To Your Girls Are Looking Good


----------



## Elephant Man

All of you guys, thank you.

Zarnon, Laylow, the compost thing really runs deep, in my particular situation, I can't grow outdoor or have any kind of 'conventional' compost pile.

I gotta say a quick thing about Living Organics that apply here (and to my plan):

In essence, it is not growing a plant at all, it is the growing of beneficial microbeasties (fungi and bacteria) that will protect, control intake (ph and ferts too), and be completely sustained in your compost and plant containers by VERY small amounts of organic matter.  That is the best I can do so far, but I am 'exam crashing' this one with some guys help.

That being said, a VERY sterile environment similar to what you would maintain for a plant, must be maintained for your compost. 

Blah blah, here's were I get back to the point.  A living organics 'compost' container (10 - 30 gallons) works quite unconventionally.  By the use of careful promotion, after a very short time, an overwhelming number of beasties will be at your disposal for distribution to keep your plant containers maximized AND decompose organic matter at an accelerated rate.

By now you might see where this could come in very useful for those:

on a budget,

in an apartment or cramped with no real outdoor area,

interested in recycling their plant matter without a 'conventional outdoor compost pile,

interested in growing true organics - after all in living organics - if you EVER introduce something non organic, your beasties will possibly die and take your plants with them.  This can be as simple as adding tap water.

Okay, anyway

Sin and LTG,
I got some more DIY to post real soon, but I am in kind of an emergency with the plants/grow area right now.  Alot has happened.  I will post more and update real soon.


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> In essence, it is not growing a plant at all, it is the growing of beneficial microbeasties (fungi and bacteria) that will protect, control intake (ph and ferts too), and be completely sustained in your compost and plant containers by VERY small amounts of organic matter.  That is the best I can do so far, but I am 'exam crashing' this one with some guys help.



Well EM.

sure didnt take ya long to pick up on that train of thought  

here's something to chew on... think of grow'n this plant blind but you have the info to do it without need'n to see it  

Theres a couple of blind peeps on the site from the early link's i posted that can grow like mad.... with never seen'n the girls  

my goal is to be able to do the same as I only have 1 eye now and the other isnt to good now days but i never want to stop growing  

keep up the research bro and share the knowledge.... and keep that all thread away from water cloner's or any hydro setup for that matter  


grow on


----------



## Elephant Man

HGB

Wow, I can see where growing blind would seem impossible, but I know if anyone can, you can:aok: :farm: .  Now I see why all the troubleshooting guides include so much about leaf texture and shape .

I have been really trying to pick up this LO thing really fast.  I think I know why some long term growers may have difficulty with it.  I can see where after so many have fought so long to try and understand MJ's needs, that it could be difficult to try and forget all that and learn how to grow beasties.  I guess, with me being new, I am a little more open to ideas, considering I know nothing 'set in stone' from experience.

Just a little update, aerocloner works great, couple mothers are not happy.
I am trying to apply what I have learned to pull them through, no disrespect to anyone by not asking for help, I am just a stubborn idiot .  The troubleshooting guides are out there, and I am doing my best to utilize them.  They are looking much better today, I will update as soon as I have a better idea of what happened.


----------



## Elephant Man

More easy DIY so even the 'financially challenged' can try and grow too .

In the first pic with the fan, you can see I took some info from another site and took it one step further. Just so you know, I have 2 oscillating fans, I got lucky by finding them used/cheap. I am sure you guys have seen what a wall mounted goes for ($$$). I chose to mod this method of using a simple box fan (cheap) and placement to try to 'bounce' airflow off of walls to 'even out' circulation. Instead of messin around and finding the best possible spot, I just mounted it and made some empty bottle 'air directors' and messed around with placement of those till I got good even distribution. This will in fact, free up a plant site
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .

In the second pic, I have a simple kerosene heater thermostat attached to my light cooling fan, thus requiring no additional heating
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . By monitering placement, you can 'dial' in a temp that will correspond with your canopy temps.

Third pic is of the new 'propagation and seedling' lab area
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . And some clones to the right getting experimented on
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .

Fourth pic is my very first propagated clone
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 .


----------



## Elephant Man

OK, the living organics experiment has started .

Not sure if anyone is following along, but puttin' this up for timeline etc.

Today, in a 50 gallon container, I mixed

Half bag of Bumper Crop® Organic Soil Amendment - West Coast
A blend of composted fir bark and forest humus fortified with 15% chicken manure, worm castings, bat guano and kelp meal. pH balanced with dolomite and oyster shell lime. An all purpose pre-fertilized planting and garden soil amendment. Excels as a nutrient rich top dressing and mulch. With 6 species of myco! 2 cubes cost me $6!

Half bag of Worm Gold Plus 100% Organic worm casings with kelp and rock minerals 20 quarts - $18

Half bag of topsoil

3 lbs of of Master Nursery Oyster shell lime Calcium 36% Calcium carbonate equivalent 96% 10lbs $7

Half bag of Perlite and Vermiculite, 12 qts each $4 and $5

Mixed well and watered with RO water (CANNOT USE TAP)

Then I added:

2 cups cottonseed meal
1 cup of used coffee grounds
1 cup EB Stone Tomato and vegetable food 4-5-3 blended with humic acid and beneficial microbes including myco 3 species 500 viable organisms per pound 4lbs - $6
1/2 cup each blood and bone meal
1/2 cup EB Stone Bat Guano 9 -2-1 2lbs $6
3 cups steer manure
1 cups prilled dolomite lime
1 cup finely ground 100% organic oatmeal
4 oz Whitney Farms Smart Start 9-3-5 calcium 3% sulphur 2.5% Contains 8 species of mycorrhizal fungi - lists the species and cc 7oz $2
1 cup alaskan fish ferts

Mixed again and wet thoroughly

I still have a couple things to try and get monday.

This is my basemix that will be used later, this mix is going to sit for 2 weeks minimum, and after a month or 2 should be swarming with mini and micro beasties, mites, and worms .  All good:aok: , as this is my 'miniature compost pile' and in time, will be tossing all kind of recyclables and used soil in there .

Speaking of recyclables, in the mean time, I will be drying out lots of banana peels, coffee grounds, fruit cores (vegetable matter) etc. to be added later once my beasties are so numerous they can decompose this stuff rapidly, and overpower any 'bad' beasties that could be introduced.  In essence, this is the care of your basemix and beasties that matters most, they will take care of the plant for you:aok:  .


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats going on Eman.   Man you build more stuff then a factory can put out in a week my friend. :aok:  Everything is looking great man keep it up.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Whats going on Eman.  Man you build more stuff then a factory can put out in a week my friend. :aok: Everything is looking great man keep it up.  *


 
Glad to see ya back TBG:aok: .  The 'mad scientist' in me has absorbed quite alot in these short 2 months, I got my clones, and the really weird stuff is on it's way!

I am beat, these last 3 days have been pretty intense, working till dawn, diagnosing problems, trying to get this living organics thing going, fighting with a timer .  I need some sleep and a good back massage .


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Not sure if anyone is following along, but puttin' this up for timeline etc.



Look at the post count to veiw ratio  

sound's like ya need to take today off and rest up a bit broham... search out some greensand and let the beastie's thrive... after all you are growing for the plant and not just growing a plant :ccc: 

grow on


----------



## Zarnon

Well,  I'm gonna wish you the best of luck,  but that seems to be an incredible amount of material to put into the pile.  I've never done compost so I'm going to observe.

Not sure what the final amount  of material you'll get but just adding up the prices you're approaching what I pay for premixed.   I know cost was an issue so just broaching it.  I'm buzzed az hayell so please forgive if I make no sense.

I know how exciting it is to start out.. man,  I think I was glued to my chair for an entire month trying to learn what I could from the 'old hands' on Overgrow.  It was hard to get out of the way sometimes and let the plant do her thing.


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks HGB, I was having trouble with a timer and had to throw my schedule all out of wack, but I think I got it fixed.

Zarnon, thanks for ridin' along.  This stuff is being taught to me step by step.  Alot of strictly organic guys probably already have this stuff on hand, so they would be more prepared.  These ingredients will last a LONG time.

Pretty soon I will be building the pots, a system of layers and spikes, with only a small amount of base.  Once they are ready to feed, I will be using 'living teas' that will maintain the beasties that are basically teaspoon amounts of base, e casings, ferts in a bucket of RO water with an airstone.

Might be kind of hard to see how far this stuff will go, but trust me, I'll show you guys this stuff lasts forever.

Picture of my tea bucket below after 8 hours bubbling.

If I catch on quick, I plan to try and apply this to hydro, that has been done too.


----------



## Elephant Man

Another little DIY for anyone thinking of using opposing timers for 2 flower rooms.

In the pic below is an aquarium power center made by Coralife.  This product is used to 'flip' opposing outlets for 'day and night' lighting.  It has 2 day outlets and 2 night plus 4 constant and 1875 watt capacity.  If you are dealing with limited total amperage like I am, this item should allow you to use one outlet for multiple lights.  I am only using it to flip one room right now and only running 400w digital on it, but I think this thing could flip 2 1kw lights off of one outlet .  Cost me $30, so a little more than 2 timers, but will save you ALOT of time trying to safely sync 2 timers off of one outlet.
Timer is digital and backed with battery .

Couple mother shots of those not in flower, the big one is miss biggie small and she is my favorite .  She puts out some invincible clones .


----------



## HGB

might be a bit off topic like broham but....

been play'n with sour dough starter's,  it's alive as well and can produce a lot of food for very little money  

this one is about a year old  hehe and going strong...

makes great bread,rolls and pancakes like  


:bong:


----------



## newgreenthumb

Elephant if I had half your creativity I would be the Mad Scientist of grow in my area.  Keep it up it gives me motivation. :aok:


----------



## Elephant Man

HGB, oh no, you mean I have to learn to cook now too  ! jk

Man, you are a never ending supply of info, chewing as fast as I can, but I still got quite a mouthful from the last juicy bit ya sent me .  Oh, and as far as I am concerned there is no off topic in this thread  .  I'm gonna have to look into that when I have more time, but if ya get around to it, feel free to throw up what you can here.

Newgreenthumb,

You are very welcome my freind, I got an empty chair saved here for ya! 
I will do my best to help others by passing on the info that the gurus have left us.  It's like a big 'pay it back' chain ya know?  I have a particular soft spot for people that need help trying to finance their first grow, I know what it is like to suddenly find yourself disabled and for the first time NEEDING mj just to get out of bed.


edit, Actually, the only thing I would consider off topic (mean face), would be any questions about growing for profit, this includes private messages.


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> I have a particular soft spot for people that need help trying to finance their first grow, I know what it is like to suddenly find yourself disabled and for the first time NEEDING mj just to get out of bed.



indeed bro

you grow on and teach and share


----------



## laylow6988

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Another little DIY for anyone thinking of using opposing timers for 2 flower rooms.
> 
> In the pic below is an aquarium power center made by Coralife. This product is used to 'flip' opposing outlets for 'day and night' lighting. It has 2 day outlets and 2 night plus 4 constant and 1875 watt capacity. If you are dealing with limited total amperage like I am, this item should allow you to use one outlet for multiple lights. I am only using it to flip one room right now and only running 400w digital on it, but I think this thing could flip 2 1kw lights off of one outlet . Cost me $30, so a little more than 2 timers, but will save you ALOT of time trying to safely sync 2 timers off of one outlet.
> Timer is digital and backed with battery .
> 
> Couple mother shots of those not in flower, the big one is miss biggie small and she is my favorite . She puts out some invincible clones .


 

That looks like a cool toy. So can you set it to different times or just 12/12? That does seem to be cool though. You could run a flowering room and veggie room at the same time off of one timer. I only have one 400W but I would have use for the second one for the fan. Have you done any experiments with thermostats? I was thinking about hooking one up to my fan. In the winter a vent fan is not needed but once in a while. I think it would be cool to have one fan and a heater in winter to keep temps from fluctuating too much during the 24 hours.


----------



## laylow6988

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> OK, the living organics experiment has started .
> 
> Not sure if anyone is following along, but puttin' this up for timeline etc.
> 
> Today, in a 50 gallon container, I mixed
> 
> Half bag of Bumper Crop® Organic Soil Amendment - West Coast
> A blend of composted fir bark and forest humus fortified with 15% chicken manure, worm castings, bat guano and kelp meal. pH balanced with dolomite and oyster shell lime. An all purpose pre-fertilized planting and garden soil amendment. Excels as a nutrient rich top dressing and mulch. With 6 species of myco! 2 cubes cost me $6!
> 
> Half bag of Worm Gold Plus 100% Organic worm casings with kelp and rock minerals 20 quarts - $18
> 
> Half bag of topsoil
> 
> 3 lbs of of Master Nursery Oyster shell lime Calcium 36% Calcium carbonate equivalent 96% 10lbs $7
> 
> Half bag of Perlite and Vermiculite, 12 qts each $4 and $5
> 
> Mixed well and watered with RO water (CANNOT USE TAP)
> 
> Then I added:
> 
> 2 cups cottonseed meal
> 1 cup of used coffee grounds
> 1 cup EB Stone Tomato and vegetable food 4-5-3 blended with humic acid and beneficial microbes including myco 3 species 500 viable organisms per pound 4lbs - $6
> 1/2 cup each blood and bone meal
> 1/2 cup EB Stone Bat Guano 9 -2-1 2lbs $6
> 3 cups steer manure
> 1 cups prilled dolomite lime
> 1 cup finely ground 100% organic oatmeal
> 4 oz Whitney Farms Smart Start 9-3-5 calcium 3% sulphur 2.5% Contains 8 species of mycorrhizal fungi - lists the species and cc 7oz $2
> 1 cup alaskan fish ferts
> 
> Mixed again and wet thoroughly
> 
> I still have a couple things to try and get monday.
> 
> This is my basemix that will be used later, this mix is going to sit for 2 weeks minimum, and after a month or 2 should be swarming with mini and micro beasties, mites, and worms . All good:aok: , as this is my 'miniature compost pile' and in time, will be tossing all kind of recyclables and used soil in there .
> 
> Speaking of recyclables, in the mean time, I will be drying out lots of banana peels, coffee grounds, fruit cores (vegetable matter) etc. to be added later once my beasties are so numerous they can decompose this stuff rapidly, and overpower any 'bad' beasties that could be introduced. In essence, this is the care of your basemix and beasties that matters most, they will take care of the plant for you:aok:  .


 

Be careful using used soil. You don't want to transfer any disease. Maybe before you add the used soil, put it in a clear garbage bag. Tie it up. And let it sit out in the sun for a while. Kinda mix it up here and there. I read that it will kill most of anything. Including pests and disease. Hope I added some good info... I try. But it's hard to stay ahead of you "Bill Nye".:yay:


----------



## Elephant Man

laylow6988 said:
			
		

> That looks like a cool toy. So can you set it to different times or just 12/12? That does seem to be cool though. You could run a flowering room and veggie room at the same time off of one timer. I only have one 400W but I would have use for the second one for the fan. Have you done any experiments with thermostats? I was thinking about hooking one up to my fan. In the winter a vent fan is not needed but once in a while. I think it would be cool to have one fan and a heater in winter to keep temps from fluctuating too much during the 24 hours.


 
Kinda missing the point of the timer bro, the idea is to have 2 1kw lights on the same circuit breaker safely.  You will be over amperage with them both on, but this timer will never allow them to both ever come on.  Make sense?

Ya got to go one page back for the thermostat tutorial , works killer.


----------



## Elephant Man

laylow6988 said:
			
		

> Be careful using used soil. You don't want to transfer any disease. Maybe before you add the used soil, put it in a clear garbage bag. Tie it up. And let it sit out in the sun for a while. Kinda mix it up here and there. I read that it will kill most of anything. Including pests and disease. Hope I added some good info... I try. But it's hard to stay ahead of you "Bill Nye".:yay:


 
Thanks brother!  I learn way faster than I can post this stuff up for ya guys, please bear with me.  You are absolutely right about the recyclables.  This basemix has to 'cook' for at least a month before I will be adding anything but well dried leftover organic plant matter.  We are going to be using a seperate tote container for recycled soil.  Basically, by the time we add any of that, our 'pet' beasties will be so numerous and thriving that they will overcome any potential bad beasties that could be introduced.  It is not 'absolutely necessary' to recycle anything, we will be feeding our beasties with casings and meal, but the recycling thing is a main reason for me to do this.


----------



## learnin to gro

im not sure if you looked into this but companies sell red wriggler worms. for relatively cheap money and since you are so handy you could build a home and make your own wormcasting box they take up little space and get rid of waste quickly. in fact its the rage out in LA office buildings people have boxes at there desk and toss lunch scraps in there checkem out cool creatures andf they reproduce quickly in ideal conditions
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/red-wiggler-worms.html


----------



## Elephant Man

learnin to gro said:
			
		

> im not sure if you looked into this but companies sell red wriggler worms. for relatively cheap money and since you are so handy you could build a home and make your own wormcasting box they take up little space and get rid of waste quickly. in fact its the rage out in LA office buildings people have boxes at there desk and toss lunch scraps in there checkem out cool creatures andf they reproduce quickly in ideal conditions
> http://www.planetnatural.com/site/red-wiggler-worms.html


 
Thanks Learnintogro!  Welcome aboard!  That is good info there and I have seen a few good links on worm farming.  I had to buy a big bag of casings to start and once you guys see how long this stuff is gonna last me, you'll see I have plenty of time to look into that later .  If any of you guys have a worm farm going, please feel free to post some DIY up here, because as LTG said, be very handy here .

I still have a few things to add to the base I am gonna try my damnest to get today so please bear with me guys.


----------



## Elephant Man

I went shopping today and might have the last few things I needed for my base mix.  Gotta get with my mentor first.

By the way, I wanted to post a congratulations to my mentor and living organics guru REV, for being included in this staff at SKUNK magazine.

I will update little later...


----------



## Zarnon

Hey, BTW,  the plants look really nice.   This is a clone mother?  How old? 

*z*


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> Hey, BTW, the plants look really nice. This is a clone mother? How old?
> 
> *z*


 
Welcome back Zarnon . Every plant in the pics is from seed, Dr. Chronic. This is my first 'informed' MJ grow. All of them are between 30 and 35 days old, I think. There are some baby pics at the beginning of this thread, and all pics are dated.

The mothers are doing GREAT. When I first planted them, I used a few techniques my grandmother taught me in the garden, like layering, adding beneficial microbes, and watering twice very slowly. To this day they have had VERY little food and show no signs of deficiency. Except for AK, she doesn't like me much, but she is better now. I spent a long time trying to figure out what went right (mad scientist in me) and this is when I found living organics. Pretty close to what I did in the first place, but now I am learning why.

In a couple minutes the lights will be on and I will post pics of the 2 I put in flower last over the weekend.


----------



## Elephant Man

Some pics I promised of the 2 big bagseed I flipped over the weekend, the big one in the 5 gallon won't let go of her drip pan .

Dime sized trunks at 4 weeks 

I know, I know, mylar mylar mylar , very soon.


----------



## laylow6988

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Kinda missing the point of the timer bro, the idea is to have 2 1kw lights on the same circuit breaker safely. You will be over amperage with them both on, but this timer will never allow them to both ever come on. Make sense?
> 
> Ya got to go one page back for the thermostat tutorial , works killer.


 

I got that, I was using it in theory of my growroom. I don't have that much light. I work with a 400W, but I could off the same timer also do another room instead of doing other mods or buying a timer.


----------



## Elephant Man

laylow6988 said:
			
		

> I got that, I was using it in theory of my growroom. I don't have that much light. I work with a 400W, but I could off the same timer also do another room instead of doing other mods or buying a timer.


 
It could be handy for lots of stuff, you could run your lights at night, and plug in your ac for the day (lights off) cycle.


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats up Eman. Everytime i come in your grow journal you are building something new.   Your ladies are looking great for sure and with all the care you give them i can see why. Dude you have a GREEN THUMB for sure and some serious knowledge to share. :aok:  Anyway keep up the great work Eman.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Whats up Eman. Everytime i come in your grow journal you are building something new.  Your ladies are looking great for sure and with all the care you give them i can see why. Dude you have a GREEN THUMB for sure and some serious knowledge to share. :aok: Anyway keep up the great work Eman.  *


 
A green thumb from TBG!   Honestly brothers, I am not worthy .  I may seem like I know what's going on, but I have alot to learn.  In the back of my mind, I am still praying I make it through flower with these first 2.

I have been working just a little too hard and my freinds know it.  Yesterday, I was kidnapped and taken to Palm Springs for a day and night of fun in the sun by a freind.  Luckily, I took her car while she was getting ready, and visited the only hydro shop in town.   

Got some more good stuff, just gotta get with my mentor, and I PROMISE an update probably late tonight.


----------



## Elephant Man

A pic of the 'laboratory', and some experimental weirdness for your viewing pleasure.  Buncha buckets, misters, airstone.  Guess it is an aero....ummm...recirculating dwc...errrr...

The heck with labels


----------



## Elephant Man

More unfinished weirdness


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whatever it is Eman it looks good.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG, I'll explain it real soon. 

This is the finished reservoir for my 'living organics aeroponic thingy', I should have it testing tonight, ready for tea and clones tomorrow.

Last pic is of my 2 teamakers, in 24 hours they will be 'boomin with beasties' and ready to innoculate some clippings .


----------



## flipmode

yea man great spot dont make your operation too big .dont wanna get caught.keep it well hidden


----------



## Elephant Man

more pics


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Eman you my friend are a building fool and a good one at that. It seems like everytime we stop in your journal you have something new to share with us.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Eman you my friend are a building fool and a good one at that. It seems like everytime we stop in your journal you have something new to share with us.  *


 
Thanks TBG, it has been really hard to keep moving since my injury but my girls need me .  Good to keep me going, as you can see by the clone's roots, she has been ready for a while.  They will repay the favor soon enough .

This thing is running only 2 buckets right now, but it is designed to be 3 buckets deep and however many I can fit wide (probably 6 rows).

The screen keeps the 'beasties' and their food away from the pump.


----------



## Zarnon

Hee hee EM I officially dub thee a Gnome!  :banana:

I like inventing stuff too (mother the necessity of ,  yadda yadda).   It's cool to try out new things and get stuff that works.  

I put together this little 'external pump' system w/ my hydro,  built the training sticks,  the waterbed hose and the seedling sprinklers.  The ext pump was really nice because now I do not have to dig through all those roots if there's a problem.  Flushing is also a snap.

I have used it for four grows and think I lifted a full bucket maybe 3 times? 

Invent on my brother.

(pic of my humble projects).


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks Zarnon, sometimes with my old broken back, I feel like a gnome  where is my cane? 

That bucket dealio you got there is nice, great attention to detail.  If mine works, I will eventually expand it to maybe 12-18 buckets and will mount a much larger external pump with valves for flushing.  I may build a contoller bucket so I can have all the buckets on the floor.  I have a 50 gallon res too.  With living organics, root temps are not nearly as much of a concern, so internal pump is fine.  I got to get the feel for innoculations and boosting populations before I put 18 clones in this thing though.


----------



## Elephant Man

I decided to put my 1kw Hortilux back up in flower room #1 and flip 3 more mothers today to make room for upcoming stuff.  Biggie small, AK48, and Indoor Mix (who I nicknamed Mutt ) joined the 2 big bagseed that were flipped last weekend.

Took a couple of pics of the 2 bagseed and a pic of the whole gang while I moved stuff around.

Enjoy


----------



## laylow6988

I love it. Your quite a handy (E) man. It's hard for me to keep up with all your stuff. I am taking notes lol.


----------



## newgreenthumb

Elephant man ("_I am not an animal, I'm a Man_!" the movie 'lol').  Definately you are the master of invention.  With back problems you out do most of us who don't and that my friend says alot about you.  Keep it up and keep inspiring!!!  :aok:


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks guys!  I always was a fan of John Merrick (The Elephant Man), he showed alot of us that it is what we do with our heart that matters most .  Brave, intelligent, and kind young man.  I wish I had the chance to meet him before he left for heaven , I don't think I would have said anything, would have just hugged him .

Another pic for ya, tried to take it before the light was warmed up.

5 mothers on 12/12 under 1kw Hortilux.


----------



## laylow6988

Did you ever top those big bagseed's? I don't remember you saying it, just wanted to know.


----------



## Elephant Man

laylow6988 said:
			
		

> Did you ever top those big bagseed's? I don't remember you saying it, just wanted to know.


 
I did top them, at about 30 days, one week after moving them under 400w MH.  I wish I had topped them MUCH earlier.  I hear 5th node is good.  If I had left them under flouros, I probably wouldn't have had to top them.  The metal halide stretched them abit more than I would have liked for mothers, even with only 5 inches from canopy to light.

Got lucky and snapped some better pics just as the light clicked on .


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats up Eman. Those are some nice mothers you have there. I seen on the page before this one you said you have these ladies in flower. Is that right? If so man your gonna get some nice buds from those ladies. As always keep up the great work man.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Whats up Eman. Those are some nice mothers you have there. I seen on the page before this one you said you have these ladies in flower. Is that right? If so man your gonna get some nice buds from those ladies. As always keep up the great work man.  *


 
Thanks TBG!  Yeah, 2 of them are 9 days in, other 3 are 2 days in flower.

I finally decided to fix my leaky aerocloner, so I went out and found this kick butt container at K-mart.  It is 'Sunshine' brand, nice deep 1 inch recessed lid, way thicker than a duratote and only a few dollars more at $25.


----------



## Elephant Man

3' beautiful monster grew balls even after our little chat so he dies... 

Stem is between dime and penny size at 7 weeks .


----------



## Elephant Man

These clones look ready huh?

The living organics has begun, no 'compost base mix' in this, it is still 'cooking'.

I came up with a little experiment with my clones I just transplanted. I labeled all pots with a # and a letter, kind of 'logging code'. Gonna post it up here in case I lose mine or something...

1 = White Widow
2 = AK48
3 = Biggie Small
4 = Indoor Mix (sativa dom)
5 = 'little bagseed'
6 = 'big bagseed'

All ferts listed below were sprinkled in the bottom of containers, not mixed in.

A = 2 parts FF Light Warrior, 1 part big perlite, 1 tsp each OGM Rooters and GH Subculture (beastie innoculants) all mixed first
1/2 tsp FF Happy Frog 3-4-3 sprinkled in bottom

B = Same mix above but with 2 tsp FF Happy Frog 3-4-3 sprinked in bottom

C = Same mix above but with 1/2 tsp EB Stone All Purpose 5-5-5 with myco sprinked in bottom

D = 2 parts FF Ocean Forest, 1 part FF Light Warrior, 1 part big perlite, 1 tsp each OGM Rooters and GH Subculture all mixed first
1/2 tsp EB Stone All Purpose 5-5-5 with myco sprinkled in bottom

E = Same mix as above but with 2 tsp EB Stone All Purpose 5-5-5 with myco sprinkled in bottom around a packet of Micormax innoculant

F = Same mix as above but with 1 packet of Whitney Farms Smart Start myco innoculant 9-3-5 placed on bottom

G = Seedling planted in mix above with no ferts

Not really any kind of real test or anything, just the Mad Scientist goofing off.


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> These clones look ready huh?
> 
> The living organics has begun, no 'compost base mix' in this, it is still 'cooking'.
> 
> I came up with a little experiment with my clones I just transplanted. I labeled all pots with a # and a letter, kind of 'logging code'. Gonna post it up here in case I lose mine or something...
> 
> 1 = White Widow
> 2 = AK48
> 3 = Biggie Small
> 4 = Indoor Mix (sativa dom)
> 5 = 'little bagseed'
> 6 = 'big bagseed'
> 
> All ferts listed below were sprinkled in the bottom of containers, not mixed in.
> 
> A = 2 parts FF Light Warrior, 1 part big perlite, 1 tsp each OGM Rooters and GH Subculture (beastie innoculants) all mixed first
> 1/2 tsp FF Happy Frog 3-4-3 sprinkled in bottom
> 
> B = Same mix above but with 2 tsp FF Happy Frog 3-4-3 sprinked in bottom
> 
> C = Same mix above but with 1/2 tsp EB Stone All Purpose 5-5-5 with myco sprinked in bottom
> 
> D = 2 parts FF Ocean Forest, 1 part FF Light Warrior, 1 part big perlite, 1 tsp each OGM Rooters and GH Subculture all mixed first
> 1/2 tsp EB Stone All Purpose 5-5-5 with myco sprinkled in bottom
> 
> E = Same mix as above but with 2 tsp EB Stone All Purpose 5-5-5 with myco sprinkled in bottom around a packet of Micormax innoculant
> 
> F = Same mix as above but with 1 packet of Whitney Farms Smart Start myco innoculant 9-3-5 placed on bottom
> 
> G = Seedling planted in mix above with no ferts
> 
> Not really any kind of real test or anything, just the Mad Scientist goofing off.


*Whats up Eman. Your not a Mad Scientist dude your the Dr. Frankenstein of weed man. :aok:  *


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG , been ridin' along with me since the beginning and really inspires me to continue experimenting.

Got some BIG stuff coming up, and I am WAY behind on updates, but I did buy a decent cam for you guys .

A word of warning...
It seems that 2 of my 8 mothers so far are hermies . The pics a couple of posts back wasn't a male, but a hermie. Because of the fact that I am new and all these mothers showed pistils over a month ago, they really threw me for a loop. I have 4 mothers in flower and 2 are probably hermies. I have 3 more still veggin' and it appears as though one of those may be hermie too.

I have decided after MUCH research and some advice from HGB (thanks!) and a few others to flower the hermies in a seperate cab. Before anyone gets upset, please know I an NOT going to be collecting pollen or seeds, I am only doing this to watch. I have a VERY planned out controlled environment to do this in, and WOULD NOT recommend anyone else attempt something like this.

I would have to say, and probably most would agree from 7 weeks of pictures, that these hermies were most likely genetic from seed and not caused by stress. Perhaps a warning to all those who have purchased seeds from Dr. Chronic. I am not going to bash his business, but would like to warn any new growers to keep a very watchful eye out.

In the meantime, I have 8 WW seeds germed and getting planted tonight.  Over the next few weeks, I will probably start all the seeds I have left, to look for a few good phenos.

I promise to get a few more pics up real soon...got to get this cam sorted out...


----------



## nev6502

I cant wait to see more, you inspire me dude!


----------



## Elephant Man

nev6502 said:
			
		

> I cant wait to see more, you inspire me dude!


 
Ya want more?  Here are some pics...

First pic is of 5 in the flower room after a 'good night rain'...

Next 3 are of one of the hermies, and the 'freakshow' cab...

Last 2 are of the flower room empty, decided to go in there today and switch out my cool tube for a hood...got an idea for the tube.

Enjoy!


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats going on Eman. Everything is looking great as always. Found this pic you might like.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Whats going on Eman. Everything is looking great as always. Found this pic you might like.  *


 
Cool picture!  Can you imagine?  I didn't want to tell you guys how I really got the nickname "Elephant Man", guess I thought I could fool you a little while.  The name was given to me by a female freind....


----------



## bombbudpuffa

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Cool picture! Can you imagine? I didn't want to tell you guys how I really got the nickname "Elephant Man", guess I thought I could fool you a little while. The name was given to me by a female freind....


Grow is looking gooood!!! Can't wait to see some fat nugs on them!


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> I have decided after MUCH research and some advice from HGB (thanks!) and a few others to flower the hermies in a seperate cab. Before anyone gets upset, please know I an NOT going to be collecting pollen or seeds, I am only doing this to watch. I have a VERY planned out controlled environment to do this in, and WOULD NOT recommend anyone else attempt something like this.



your welcome EM  

should at least get something to make hash with from the he/she's 

grow on


----------



## Elephant Man

HGB said:
			
		

> your welcome EM
> 
> should at least get something to make hash with from the he/she's
> 
> grow on


 
I don't really know yet if I will even let them finish, just want to see what happens while controlling any possible contamination.  I am just a scientist and genuinely curious, I kind of wonder if the one monster in the pics is a pollinated female, it is still only showing a few 'balls' on one cola and busting out with pistils all over.


----------



## Elephant Man

Big 'Dr. Chronic Indoor Mix' Sativa just transplanted in 3 gallon to finish out. She is one week in flower...


----------



## Elephant Man

Just a little update on the basemix, after about a week of cooking, it has cooled down and looking good for the last two weeks. About a week ago I laid a dry corncob on top and today it is covered with 'silvery-white' fungi . I think it is ready...A little info on the transplant of miss 'mutt' sativa. I decided to hammer the beasties on her, this is what I did:

I mixed something like this in the first layer on the bottom:

1 part steer manure
1 part earthworm casings
1 part topsoil
1 tsp FF High P guano with myco
1 tsp seabird guano
1 tsp eb stone High N guano with myco
1 tsp bone meal
1 tsp blood meal
2 tsp greensand
1 tsp oyster shells
1 tsp hydrated lime
2 tsp cottonseed meal
1 tsp plant savers with myco
1 tsp eb stone all purpose plant food with myco
1/2 tsp eb stone cal/mg/so
1 tsp OGM rooters innoculant
pinch of GH Subculture

I mixed all this in small layer on bottom, on top of this I added

2 big handfuls of 3 week old basemix

Then, I put a thin layer of this mix around root ball bottom and on top

1 part FF Ocean Forest
1 part FF Light Warrior with myco
1 part big perlite/vermiculite mix
1 tsp OGM Rooters (scratched at roots and sprinkled some on them)
1 tsp GH Subculture (scratched at roots and sprinkled some on them)

So there it is...don't know what will happen, but I'm not going to worry about it. I know it seems like alot of food down there, but I am guessing that by the time the roots find them, the beasties will be all over them and already have a jump on breaking down the 'very beastie freindly, mix on the bottom. A very diverse and massive population of beneficial microbes, bacteria, and fungi are waiting to completely sheild the roots and control ph, nutrient intake - both micro and macro, and fend off enemy pathogens, and pests. These beasties will also prevent the plant from 'gourging' itself on any concentrated goodies it might find.

I took her clones and gave them their first tea today, and srinkled a little rooters down the sides of the containers.

Here is a pic of a clone and new seedling above it in LO mix. No yellowing, just bad lighting. 'Waxy green color' IMO, based on what I've learned, is a good indication of maximum nitrogen intake, and believe me there is more than enough in there .


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats going on Eman. As always everything is looking great. I can't wait to see some big buds on these ladies. *


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG, gonna have to get even better cam to do them justice.

Went online shopping today and picked up some more innoculants and 'beastie food a plenty' 

Micro Phos 2lb
Alaskan Magic Organic Humus 8lb
Biozome 2lb
MycoMinerals Soil Amendment 4lb
Azomite Micronized 2lb
Squanto's Secret, 2-4-2, qt 
Kelp Meal, 5 lb. 
Alfalfa Meal, 5 lb. 
Organica PGA +, 1 lb. powder 
Liquid Fish and Seaweed Fertilizer, 1 qt. 
Soluble Root Growth Enhancer, Mycorrhizae (Endo/Ecto), 4 oz.

Notice how all this stuff comes in pounds?  Gonna last a long time with a 'tsp here and sprinkle there'


----------



## Elephant Man

See the seedling on the top in the first pic?

Look at the difference 48 hours under flouros and some microbial tea can make


----------



## lazyjoker

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> This journal will start kind of slow, so please bear with me, I am building veg and flower rooms as we speak. My bagseed after 2 days in 50/50 Fox Farm Ocean Forest and Light Warrior.


 

Wow you went from lil plant to a garden what day are you in since you started?


----------



## Elephant Man

lazyjoker said:
			
		

> Wow you went from lil plant to a garden what day are you in since you started?


 
I have no idea...but that is the beauty of a grow journal...everything is logged here.  I had to look back to first few posts, looks like I started 2nd week of October, that post you quoted was dated 10-20-06.  First cotyldons to open on 'big bagseed' in that post...my oldest plant.  So I guess it has only been about 7 weeks.  That plant is 'the hermie' in the posts and pics above.

Things are finally starting to cool of a little here and I was able to move my 1kw back into the garage.  I decided to go ahead and use the space I had originally allocated for my TAG setup.  I managed to get the bulb 9 feet off of the ground at max height , after all...what is a 'Mad Scientist Laboratory' without monsters?


----------



## Elephant Man

More pics


----------



## Treebeard

As ever your grows looking damn good! Keep up the great work!

Btw whens your book coming out elephantman??


----------



## Elephant Man

Offspring_36 said:
			
		

> As ever your grows looking damn good! Keep up the great work!
> 
> Btw whens your book coming out elephantman??


 
LOL, I guess if I ever stop I could maybe write a book...problem is right now I am too busy reading and constantly changing my mind about stuff .

I got some even more wacky stuff coming up...after buying all this stuff for the living organics project, I am actually learning now how to make it all myself . Pretty soon I will be composting alot more than just ferts and veggie scraps...I will be 'farming' my own innoculations, both bacterial and fungi based. I am going to be messin' round with making everything from fish ferts to insecticides, from complete fertilizers to trace elements. Should get pretty interesting here real soon .

Some of you may know I help out (through a freind) at my local animal shelter. I had a cat named Charlie...he is my avatar...I took care of him for almost 3 months, but he was just recently adopted by a local family . So, in line with my recent discoveries...allow me to introduce you to my new companion....his name is Cannabunny . He was also a shelter refugee. He is actually more fun than Charlie was, he gets all excited when he sees me, and acts like a dog sometimes. In case you didn't know...let me post up some info about 'bunny poo'.

From the 'Scoop on **** by the 3lb':

Rabbit Manure (2.4-1.4-0.6) - is the hottest of the animal manures. It may even be higher in nitrogen than some poultry manures. As an added bonus it also contains fairly high percentages of phosphates. Because of it's high nitrogen content, rabbit crap is best used in small quantities (as a light top dressing or lightly mixed into soil) or composted before use. An excellent fertilizer by itself, some folks combine rabbit hutches with worm farms to create what is a potentially very rich source of nutritious worm castings. As with other animal manures, healthier animals fed a nutritious diet will produce a superior manure fertilizer.

Rabbit poo is actually the only manure other than earthworm casings that does not need to be composted before use. I will use the manure both in my basemix and to feed a worm bin.

Gonna start the 'biological farming' thing here real soon...stay tuned


----------



## Tonto

Incredible.


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks Fluid1! Been fun documenting this here for all to see.

Ok, got alot done last night, finally ready to hang couple more lights.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




I decided to go for 5" transplant too, of clone in 3" container, here is the mix:

Before I started, I mixed up my foliar mix and gave them all a good shower. I use this same foliar as a wetting agent during transplants, it is made of:

3 drops each Botanicare Liquid Karma, and Green Fuse Bloom Enhancer, added to quart spray bottle.

Also, when I refer to 'seedling mix' it is made of:

2 parts FF Ocean Forest
1 part FF Light Warrior
1 part big perlite
pinch of GH Subculture
pinch of OGM Rooters

And here we go, in 5" container:

1/4 cup steer manure, spread on bottom - not mixed

then I mixed all of this:

1/8 tsp blood meal 12-0-0
1 heaping tsp cottonseed meal 6-3-1
1/2 tsp EB Stone All Purpose 5-5-5 with myco
1 tsp greensand 0-0-3
1/4 tsp Sunleaves Peruvian Seabird Guano 10-10-2
1/4 tsp fresh bunny manure
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 2.4-1.4-.6
1/2 tsp prilled lime
1/4 cup oyster shells
3 heaping tsp earthworm casings
1/4 cup seedling mix
1/4 tsp BioOrganics MycoMinerals
1/4 tsp Azonite
1/4 tsp MicroPhos 0-2-0
1/4 tsp Rainbow Mix Grow 5-5-2 with myco
1/4 tsp Alakan Fish Ferts 5-5-1
1/4 tsp BioBizz Fish Mix 2.1-.2-6.6

Mixed all of this in a layer over steer manure

Then I put about 3 tsps seedling mix on top, just enough to cover it, soaked with wetting agent

then I added:

1/2 cup topsoil on top (not mixed)
1/2 cup pre-composted homemade base-mix on top of that (not mixed)
sprinkle of OGM Rooters and Biozome
Another 3 tsps seedling mix on top, just enough to cover it, soaked with wetting agent

Then took clone, scratched a little loose soil off all the way round (on top too) and sprinkled Biozome all over

Then, in a thin layer 'all around root ball' and on top too, I used this mix:

1 part seedling mix
pinch of FF Bat Guano 0-4-0
pinch of MycoMinerals
1/3 part earthworm casings
pinch greensand

Thoroughly wet down with foliar mix and pray


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*As always Eman your ladies are looking great and you journal is one great read man. :aok: *


----------



## newgreenthumb

Your journal is always full of useful info and an inspiration to read.  I am going to experiment with some new beastie formulas on this next grow.  Got some things in mind and will share as they progress.


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks guys, these transplants are getting much easier to do now that I am beginning to catch on to macro/micro levels, traces..and long term release stuff, starting to seem like more work to post it all than do it, but I will continue to do so .

NGT, or anyone else feel free to shoot me a pm for some excellent reading on soil mixes, compost teas etc.  

Now an update:

Well...the hermie still seems confused...cut somewhere between 10 and 20 pods off about 10 days ago and still none have returned.  Decided I have 2 hold to the 2 clones from 'it' at least until I sample the freak.  22 days in now and showing 'sugarleaves' now.

So I transplanted those 2 and one more big sativa clones in a new slightly modified 5" pot mix:

Changed my 'fill' mix just a little, now consists of:

About 5 gallons seedling mix (few posts back)+
1tsp of FF bat guano
1tsp Biorganics MycoMinerals
2 cups earthworm casings
1 cup greensand
1/2 tsp Azomite
4 tsp prilled lime
1 cup oyster shells
1 tsp EB Stone 5-5-5
1 tsp biozome

(This mix above is what I have been putting freshly rooted clones in too, seeds still go in seedling mix)

Back to 5"

First I put 4 tsps each steer manure and bunny poo in bottom layer

Then for next layer I mixed (for 3 5" pots):

1/2 tsp each blood and bone meal
6 tsp cottonseed meal
1 tsp EB Stone 5-5-5
3 tsp greensand
1 tsp peruvian seabird guano
6 tsp prilled lime
1 cup oyster shell
1 cup earthworm casings
1 cup seedling mix
1/2 tsp MycoMinerals
1/2 tsp Azomite
1 tsp MicroPhos
1 tsp Rainbow Mix Grow
1 tsp Alaskan Fish Ferts
1 tsp BioBizz Fish Mix
1 tsp seaweed extract

On top of that layer I put (for each pot)
1/2 cup homemade basemix compost
1/2 cup topsoil
1/2 cup homemade basemix compost

Then, as I translplanted, I removed most loose soil from sides and top and sprinkled Biozome all over rootball.  Top and bottom and all around root ball filled in with 'fill mix'.  Also, since I had them, I put one Micormax teabag (innoculant with no nutes) right under the rootball.


----------



## Tonto

That's good stuff. Once you get it down to a science with the soil, it will be second nature, I'm sure. I'm just glad that you are doing it and contributing to the community as such. I could use some of that green thumb here!!


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks Fluid1! I will send some GREEN MOJO your way, I guess I have made it far enough to say I have a little . I hope for the best on your new hydro project, I actually dabbled a little in DWC but decided I didn't like it. I could go on and on about why...but I really don't want to discourage you man. I know there are those getting great results using it, off of the top of my head...WeedDog's name comes to mind. Don't know if he is still around, but maybe some of his older posts might be useful. Please, any big DWC guys watching, show Fluid and I how it is done .

I have been doing some experimenting with foliar feeding and have been getting big morning smiles from the girls after a bedtime drench. I read something that said that plants are 8 times as efficient in taking nutes through the leaves than through the roots. If any of you guys want to experiment along with me, this is what I am using:

In one quart spray bottle:

3 drops of either Alaskan Fish Ferts, or Botanicare Pure Blend Original (not pro), or Fox Farms Big Bloom (not grow or beastie or tiger), or GH BB Fish mix

and

3 drops of either Botanicare Liquid Karma, or Growmore Seaweed extract, or Green Fuse Bloom enhancer, or pinch of Down To Earth kelp meal

I use these about twice a week on everything, clones, seedlings, big girls...the Alaskan Fish Ferts usually on veggers, GH BB fish mix on bloomers (high K)...you get the idea . Threw up alot of variations up there with the mixes...perhaps some of this stuff you might have.  Also, anyone making compost teas like NGT and I, they will work great as foliars also .

P.S. Anything left over should be put back in the fridge, that's where I keep all my liquid organics.


----------



## Elephant Man

Another little update with pics 

In the first pic you will see some clones in the background, well...2 of those are over a foot tall now in 3x3 inch pots , living organics mang .

In the last 2 pics you can see 'big sativa' (aka 'Mutt" ) is loving here new beastie filled home and now 10 days in flower is really getting her stretch on. Compared to previous pics, she has gained about 10 inches in less than a week . Actually had to put the other 2 on upside down buckets to keep the canopy level. For reference, that mylar stops 5' from the concrete ...monsters in the lab muwahahaha.

Baby pics are 8 new WW .


----------



## Zarnon

Dang... I can see you're very busy with multiple projects.   Very cool dude. 

For me it's hard to comment as I think it's cool you are experimenting and finding the 'right mix'.   So in that I wish you the best of luck. 

My experience has been that adding components slowly works the best; it's certainly shaped my approach (although I'm not clear what goes into making all my stuff which is probably far more complex than I realize).    Most of the time my efforts to improve things work in reverse and I have to backtrack.


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks Zarnon, it has been a very crazy road to get to where I am now. I started out wanting to focus on hydro, and have been swept away by the 'living organics' thing. I have really only touched on the principles of it, I have pages and pages of notes and megs of files and links about it. I also have an excellent teacher from Skunk magazine that is helping me all along. I really wish I had the time to post everything I do or learn here, but I have other responsibilities too. I have been helping out a little on a much smaller new forum, but I will continue to update here at least once a week.

For some reason I've noticed, the 'living organics' or 'microbial farming' thing is very difficult for some 'long time growers' to grasp. In essence, you have to forget about growing the plant and focus on your microbes. They do everything, they convert insoluables, control ph, increase resistance to drought, increase resistance to pests, and completely control the plant's intake. I have tested a few of these theories too and it does work. I have watched a plant (very carefully) go 2 weeks without water. I have never ph'ed my soil or water. I have seen about half the pests on the list in or around my grow and have yet to see any on the plants or any damage done, no pesticides whatsoever. I have clones that have been in the same 3" pot now for almost a month, with nothing but water. In fact, these transplants I am doing, only get teas about once a week, and nothing but RO water in between. The teas and half the nutes in the pots actually feed the beasties, they are like 'worker bees' protecting, storing food, and caring for 'their queen'. 

I could go on, but I have actually been typing half the night. I have a couple more transplants to post about still, gonna half to wait till another day though.


----------



## Tonto

I look forward daily to reading your musings about what you have going on. 
One bright spot in my life last night, I checked on the babies that have been in the new hydro machine since Saturday... and the largest one has new root growth. I was SO happy to see that, but the good Dr. is sending me a trio of new seeds to bein with my new stuff. I don't want to hijack your thread, so I'll post my stuff in mine! 

Please keep up the astounding work, it is an inspiration. Add to that you seem like a very nice genuine person, and are a very welcome addition to the people I communicate with on a daily basis.


----------



## Elephant Man

You are the man Fluid1, keep at it and your girls will do you proud, I promise.

I just had to post this picture of a 'big sativa' clone in 'living organics'.  14 days since transplant into 3x3 inch pot...13" tall.  One tea feeding and the rest RO water...no ph check or adjustment.  Just over 2 months growing experience...did I mention I learn fast?


----------



## Tonto

Like a giant sponge.

That plant is looking incredible for that amount of time, it's about time to flower!


----------



## TURKEYNECK

Woah This thread got away from me...Hard to keep up bro...Nice work.


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Eman you have so much going on in this journal you might wanna think about turning it into a book.   What can i say except everything is looking great as always mang. :aok: *


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG, absolutely amazing how much I have learned in a very short time (just over 2 months) just imagine what I will know in a year .

Woohoo!  The Turkey is in the house! Oh yeah...Uh huh:banana: 
Seriously bro, thanks for stopping by, the couch is full...but we can bring in some chairs from out back ...make yourself at home .

Tell ya what guys, in all honesty I really wish I could grow outdoors...always will be my dream.  I have some really great ideas about a backfilled hole to be composted before planting season, I would love to share them with anyone interested...


----------



## Elephant Man

I gotta say I have always seen the most growth just before watering. In my low RH environment, even in an airy mix, weekly waterings is not a problem for 'big pot girls'. I use the 'weight' method of watering and try to wait till I feel a big decrease in weight before watering. IMO the pots will gradually get lighter and lighter until one day you will notice a drastic decrease in weight. That is when I water. Interestingly enough, I have noticed in those 2 days before, the largest growth spurts. I am beginning to be able to tell that day just by watching growth.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 Let me point out that this is still probably a day or 2 before any wilting/drought stress. I use the slow water method also, about 2 cups at a time every 20 min or so, till I get runoff. Then I usually give a last 2 cup watering and after an hour or so, dump any runoff.

I was looking at previous posts by REv in my journal and decided my first transplant (big sativa) probably is a little shy on some micros, especially Mg. I have noticed a few signs but I wanted to wait and see if she was just adjusting to her new mix. She still hasn't had any tea, so I decided to add half a teaspoon of Botanicare Cal/Mag to a gallon of RO for her watering.

Almost fell on the floor when I saw this (pic below)

Roots are my thing mang, I grow a plant from the pot up and this tickled me pink
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . HUGE hairy 'pipe cleaner' roots coming from one drainage hole
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 , they are nearly the size of a pencil at the opening
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 . Looks like she is definately dug in now and loving that bottom layer
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	







 .

I decided to post a couple of pics of the big herm and her also, as you can see by the mylar, she is well over the 5 ft mark now. I also realized I can't remove her from the flower room either, without risk of injury to one of us
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 ...oh well...wanted to get a better pic
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 .


----------



## Zarnon

BTW,  there is now bioactive fermented mixes for Hydro (BioCanna).   They're certified organic per Holland's own process.  Organic to me just means living (and no pesticides, natch).

Whether it's soil, soilless or hydro as long as have the right medium.  I know you know the diff,  but people get locked in to thinking soil=organic.

My next hydro grow will be my first 100% all organic mang! :farm: 

Now everything looks real good.. the plants are great, green, healthy.  But......... did I read this right......... you are _growing_ that herm??  Say whaa?  :huh:    Dude,   I would narp that herm now! :chuck:  The guy that's been my 'prof' is fuming b/c he got a bunch of hermie clones and didn't know it!  I know you are the 'experimenter' but you need pollen in amounts you cannot even see to fill those flowers with seed.    I have been to Herm City myself and it was not fun.

BTW,  good rootshot.  They are the foundation for your flower house.


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> BTW, there is now bioactive fermented mixes for Hydro (BioCanna). They're certified organic per Holland's own process. Organic to me just means living (and no pesticides, natch).
> 
> Whether it's soil, soilless or hydro as long as have the right medium. I know you know the diff, but people get locked in to thinking soil=organic.
> 
> My next hydro grow will be my first 100% all organic mang! :farm:
> 
> Now everything looks real good.. the plants are great, green, healthy. But......... did I read this right......... you are _growing_ that herm?? Say whaa? :huh: Dude, I would narp that herm now! :chuck: The guy that's been my 'prof' is fuming b/c he got a bunch of hermie clones and didn't know it! I know you are the 'experimenter' but you need pollen in amounts you cannot even see to fill those flowers with seed. I have been to Herm City myself and it was not fun.
> 
> BTW, good rootshot. They are the foundation for your flower house.


 
Biocanna looks great, but try this:

2 tsp Fox Farm Peice of Mind All Purpose 5-5-5 ($8 for 4lbs.)
1/2 tsp blackstrap molasses ($2 for 12oz.)
1/2 tsp Alaskan Fish Ferts ($6 for 32oz.)
1/8 tsp Down To Earth Kelp Meal ($6 for 5lbs)

mix with 2 gallons Reverse Osmosis water (or filtered, cannot use tap)
add air stone and bubble for 24 to 48 hrs
done dealio easy shmeezy and cheaper than dirt.
Elephunt Man Certified Organic 

give a few seedlings (yes I said seedlings ) this once a week or to a couple clones as needed.  Got a few more recipes for veggers and blooming.

I only call it a herm because it had me confused, she is a sassy nasty girl with huge calyxs.  I do not give away clones, especially bagseed.


----------



## Elephant Man

Merry Christmas Marijuana Passion!


----------



## Elephant Man




----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats up Eman. Hope you had a great Christmas mang. Stopped in to see how your grow was doing and may i say everything is looking great as always. Keep up the great work.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Whats up Eman. Hope you had a great Christmas mang. Stopped in to see how your grow was doing and may i say everything is looking great as always. Keep up the great work.  *


 
Pics for my man TBG:ccc:


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Those ladies are looking better and better with every picture you take Eman. Whats is your projected harvest date for them fine arse ladies? With all the work you been doing and putting into them ladies i bet you just can't wait for chop time.   As always your doing a great job and i can't wait to see the final product. :aok: *


----------



## KADE

Still lookin good man! Keep it up!


----------



## WubDaBuds

*Very nice grow ya got going Elephant Man!

Keep up the good work m8.*


----------



## Zarnon

Hey EM!  Stopped by to see how things are going.  Lookin' great dude! 

Those strong sativa strains... yeah man, they can stretch and stretch, but damn I like the taste and high.  I'm smokin' one now!   I love it with a cuppa joe.   Mmmmm hmmmm...  Oh anyways,  I have bitten my fingernails a time or two even with intensive training.  LOL...


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks guys,

TBG, don't really have a set harvest date for any of them. 'Big Herm' is probably gonna get her last feeding this weekend, then just molasses and water till done. Just gonna go by the trichs, she will probably be picked just a tad on the early side (few amber) and the rest will most likely be aimed at a late harvest. I will be trying to target back pain and insomnia as a result, but it is always nice to have some 'heady' wake and bake bud too. Plan on revegging at least one of them too, just for fun.

Zarnon, yeah man, sativas are fun to grow that is for sure. Explosive growth on mine first 3 weeks in flower and looks to have finally peaked at just over 6 foot tall (from the soil). Gonna flip some clones between 12 and 24 inches this next time around and go from there. One thing to note for others, don't expect to get too many clones at one time from one of these 'corn stalks'.

I am still very heavy into my soil life constructions, I use a series of transplants into a final 2.5 gallon bucket for flowering. So far I am really happy with my flower mix, just got to finish dialing in my 3" and 5" sq pot veg mixes. I am also leaning away from a pre-prepared basemix and will just be reusing soil by either composting to casings in my worm bin(s) or doing individual pre-composts right in the pots approximtely 2 weeks before transplant. Got a couple new teas to play with too.


----------



## Elephant Man

My 'Widow' babies


----------



## Elephant Man

Worm bin pics:smoke1:


----------



## Elephant Man

Perhaps the world's largest non-commercial indoor compost teamaker...LOL


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Everything is looking great you mad man. :aok:  You have so much going on it's hard to follow sometimes.  *


----------



## Zarnon

Looking good Elephant Man.   

I might try that tea,  but man,  anything really granular tends to clog up the water outlets.   Can some of these be filtered?   Heck,  I may put a submersible in one bucket and do a side by side next time.


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks guys!

Zarnon: Yes, they make all of the organic nutrients I use in hydro form.  Some are labeled for foliar use, some actually state that they are filtered for 'spray nozzle' use.  I can probably help you sub out anything you might want to use if necessary.  I am a big fan of nylon paint strainers too.


----------



## Elephant Man

My teamaker with 15 gallons RO water.  Dual 24" 100gph waterfalls, dual stage pump filter, bulap teabag full of goodies.

18 hours old and 6 inch foam, was just about to add my innoculants LOL.:yay: 

Maximum diversified microbial population :smoke1:


----------



## Zarnon

Ok EM,  you might be on next grow.  Keep in mind this would be a side by side clone in the exact same environment.   EM vs the Big Corporate Fert Factories!  

Hey man,  if I can get something that works and not have to pay 29 bucks for a QUARTER LITER of additive I can be supporter!  But to be fair, you will have to defeat "Big Ferta" legitimately! 

I am not sure I can do a full on sub but if I use organic nutes next grow,  I can try to swap out some elements like your flowering mix as an additive vs. Biocanna.   Frankly, I have no place to put a huge funkin fermentin' factory (and neither do most people) so one challenge I have is for you to make this something people can do in a small area. 

(Love it that the stuff is filterable! COOL!)


----------



## TURKEYNECK

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Everything is looking great you mad man. :aok:  You have so much going on it's hard to follow sometimes.  *



No kidding, Much props E-Mang.


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> Ok EM, you might be on next grow. Keep in mind this would be a side by side clone in the exact same environment. EM vs the Big Corporate Fert Factories!
> 
> Hey man, if I can get something that works and not have to pay 29 bucks for a QUARTER LITER of additive I can be supporter! But to be fair, you will have to defeat "Big Ferta" legitimately!
> 
> I am not sure I can do a full on sub but if I use organic nutes next grow, I can try to swap out some elements like your flowering mix as an additive vs. Biocanna. Frankly, I have no place to put a huge funkin fermentin' factory (and neither do most people) so one challenge I have is for you to make this something people can do in a small area.
> 
> (Love it that the stuff is filterable! COOL!)


 
Zarnon, you have inspired me to try new things and I am here for you brother, any help I can offer - you got it.

That flower mix is doing great, but I am actually working on simplifying it. I have no 'basemix' any more, my worms do my composting for me. Once I finish a 'go round' and run out of new soil, I should have my teas and soil amendments dialed, and will be running off of 100% recycled soil and homemade casings. I think I can do it all with teas now, and just a few minor soil amendments. I may start adding some coir too.  A teamaker can be as simple as a gallon jug with airstone, and can be made quite potent and diluted before use, so space need not be a problem.


----------



## Elephant Man

TURKEYNECK said:
			
		

> No kidding, Much props E-Mang.


 
Thanks Turkey!  Posted in your thread about your ladies, hoping for the best brother.


----------



## Elephant Man

Such smiling faces, posing for pics.:farm:


----------



## caabca

hey e-man, i was thinking...you said you watered when you felt the plants were getting light..because you found they put on the most growth in the last two days before watering...for a first time grower would you recommend growing on a mail scale? that way you could monitor the weight day to day...

ps this just occured to me...i hope you didn't mean light as in colour...


----------



## Elephant Man

caabca said:
			
		

> hey e-man, i was thinking...you said you watered when you felt the plants were getting light..because you found they put on the most growth in the last two days before watering...for a first time grower would you recommend growing on a mail scale? that way you could monitor the weight day to day...
> 
> ps this just occured to me...i hope you didn't mean light as in colour...


 
Thanks for dropping by .  You are exactly right about my method...go by the weight of the pot.  I'd imagine a postal scale would work great.  Once you try this method though, it really is obvious when your plants are on their 'dry cycle'...pot weight will probably be less than half their saturated weight.


----------



## Zarnon

Dude!!   

If you invented a cost effective home fert system that beat the commercial ones,  I would not only enthusiastically endorse it,  but also suggest you could make a home 'fermenter's'  kit which had instructions to create your own bioactive compounds!   Make you the old 'green energy' (and if the results are good totally justified IMHO).

You could have instructions for soil,  soilless and hydro mixes.  

Think of it dude.  I do not know of anyone who is exploring a 'home grown' method for the masses.

I still think those Dutch Dudes have a lot on us in R/D, but I would DEF root for the American small bidnessman,  ya know?  Esp you bro!

I have little room for a fermenter,  plus I have been successful at keeping a completely sterile room.  Think of the need of the average apt. dweller or homeowner who wants to keep it on the dl.   That is yr challenge LOL!

I can get a lot of 'component' parts including beneficial bact like B. Subtilius in a culture.  However,  I know no one who is making a 'home grow' that another could duplicate.


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> Dude!!
> 
> If you invented a cost effective home fert system that beat the commercial ones, I would not only enthusiastically endorse it, but also suggest you could make a home 'fermenter's' kit which had instructions to create your own bioactive compounds!  Make you the old 'green energy' (and if the results are good totally justified IMHO).
> 
> You could have instructions for soil, soilless and hydro mixes.
> 
> Think of it dude. I do not know of anyone who is exploring a 'home grown' method for the masses.
> 
> I still think those Dutch Dudes have a lot on us in R/D, but I would DEF root for the American small bidnessman, ya know? Esp you bro!
> 
> I have little room for a fermenter, plus I have been successful at keeping a completely sterile room. Think of the need of the average apt. dweller or homeowner who wants to keep it on the dl. That is yr challenge LOL!
> 
> I can get a lot of 'component' parts including beneficial bact like B. Subtilius in a culture. However, I know no one who is making a 'home grow' that another could duplicate.


 
Great idea...you can buy a 'home fermenter' kit though, just like you can pay way too much for a hydro kit if you want LOL.  

That's ok...rather post it here so new (and old) peeps can try it out.

Still working on my veg mix, but flower does great...teas are solid too.

But...if you wanna experiment along with me, it goes a little something like this:

2 part Fox Farm Ocean Forest soil
1 part Fox Farm Light Warrior soil
1 part perlite (big perlite if you can get it)
1 part topsoil (nice chunky woody)
1/2 part manure (steer, rabbit, horse etc. composted)
1 part earthworm casings
Mix well

For every gallon of this add:

1 tsp Fox Farm Peace of mind All Purpose fertilizer 5-5-5 (with mycorrhizae)
3 tsp dolomitic or prilled lime
1/4 tsp Azomite, or Rock phosphate or 1 tsp epsom plus
1 tsp kelp meal
1 tsp alfalfa (best) or cottonseed meal

Done dealio...could probably sub out any of it. If you can, pre mix this and give it a light water and mix it everyday for 2 weeks...just keeping it barely wet...aerated.

For the teas, I use several and on nearly every watering. Bubbled with stone for 24 - 48 hours. It will start to foam and smell a little better (than the fish ferts).

Seedlings weekly, and fresh rooted clones:

2 gallons RO water (or filtered)
2 tsp Fox Farm Peice of Mind All Purpose 5-5-5
1/2 tsp blackstrap unsulphured molasses
1/2 tsp Alaskan Fish Ferts
1/8 tsp Down To Earth Kelp Meal, or 1 tsp maxicrop (seaweed extract) or 1 tsp Liquid Karma

Vegetative tea (6" and up)

5 gallons RO water (or filtered)
1/3 cup peruvian seabird guano
1/3 earthworm casings
1/3 high N bat guano
1/3 cup blackstrap unsulphured molasses

Flower tea (first half of flower)

3 gallons of RO water (or filtered)
2 tsp blackstrap unsulphured molasses
2 tsp Fox Farm Peace of Mind Fruit and Flower 5-8-4 (or all purp. 5-5-5)
1/2 cup earthworm casings
2 tsp seaweed or kelp extract or Liquid Karma or 1/4 tsp kelp meal
2 tsp Fox Farm High P bat guano
3 tsp Alakan Fish Ferts
2 tsp Fox Farm Big Bloom

You can work on getting this stuff together, or we can sub some stuff out...could surely use coir too.

Got a few mixes for topdressings, a few other amendments that work great too...if you wanna hunt down more stuff...we will use foliars for fixes.

I will post up my flower transplant recipe in a bit.


----------



## HGB

wow great info bro

got a few goodies now and a worm bin well started  and a note pad full of notes  :ccc: 

plants look great E-man

grow on


----------



## Elephant Man

HGB said:
			
		

> wow great info bro
> 
> got a few goodies now and a worm bin well started  and a note pad full of notes :ccc:
> 
> plants look great E-man
> 
> grow on


 
You are the man HGB, I owe it all to you for showing me the way! :aok: 

Gonna get back to the recipes real soon, went shopping today and got a little work to do in grow.  Wanted to post some pics of the kind of stuff I use.  Got a HUGE discount from hydro guy on some soilless mix, so we can all look forward to trying that out.  Got some free 4' pots (about 50) at my local nursery, so surely gonna be messin' around with a 'micro SOG' too LOL.  I am a pretty freindly guy I guess, better to find stuff on my own rather than order it.  Always have great conversations and guys wanna gimme stuff free to try...coolio.  

The 'bumper crop', humus, chicken manure, and steer manure I get at my local nursery...$5 a bag.

The 'bumper crop' is the bomb...really woody...I use it as my 'topsoil' in mix above.  But, it also contains chicken manure, guano, kelp, casings, humas, and oyster shell and lime as buffers. :aok:  $6 a bag!


----------



## Elephant Man

Couple more pics...


----------



## Elephant Man

Ok...gonna try to post a little more on the 'DIY basic soilweb build'.

Water:

As with any new grow, have your water tested. You can try calling your local water district or even your local hydro shop, they probably know. If it is over 300 ppm, use filtered or a filtration system. Ph is a little easier to deal with, as long as it is consistent. For this same reason, I wouldn't recommend well water either. I use RO home filtered, 6.8 >10 ppm. If you decide to use tap, make sure at the least you leave it out for some chlorine to evaporate and pickup a cheapo Brita filter. If your ph is high, invest in some apple cider vinegar.  We can adjust your buffers in your soil too.

Transplants:

I like to transplant often, like once a week. 4" to 6" to 1 gallon to 3 gallon works awesome. IMO centers a much higher root mass. When doing so, I sometimes mix my soil a little weaker in the small containers and stronger towards flower.

Amendments:

You must get FF POM, or a similar all purpose fert with mycorrhizae innoculant. Try and get close as possible to 5-5-4. If you can't get guano, you can use blood and bone meals, available just about anywhere. You can sub out just about any manure too, but any kind other than rabbit must be composted first. Chicken manure is great too, but use 75% less. The casings, kelp, and molasses are a must.

Layers:

I like to mix in layers, long term hotter nutes down low. Lime and POM globally, micronized stuff up top. As far as top dressings, just about anything goes except for blood and bone meal. I will post a few examples of top mixes here in a bit.

Foliars:

I have many...cal/mg for fixes...FF Big bloom for boost...use teas sometimes...could apply epsom, seaweed, liquid karma, bloom stimulator, lots of different things. I even have a fish/seaweed enzymatic emulsion foliar that works excellent and smells great too LOL. Pretty much all foliars are 1/4 tsp per gallon...does not take much.

Ok...that pretty much covers the basics except for your final transplant (flower) mix that is very similar to the one I posted a few pages back. I am going to look at it and simplify it as much as possible and post it up for you real soon. 

P.S.  My mind runs like a billion miles a minute and believe it or not I have changed my current mix again last night.  Gonna give a few clones a test run and post it up later...so as not to confuse anyone.


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Man everytime i come in here my jaw drops. I'm like *** is he doing this time around.   Dude you amaze me at the amount of stuff you are into. Like always everything is looking great my friend. :aok: *


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG!  I wish I could actually post up pics and info of every experiment in the lab, but unfortunately sometimes I have to stop posting to attend to grow.  I have nearly 10 different soilmixes I am messing with now, and 5 strains going...still dabblin' in hydro too.  Seedlings, mothers and very soon revegs also.  Maybe even some breeding.  

Ok, back to our soil prep...

Ph

Ph is most often overlooked by new growers, possibly just because they don't understand it.  Basically, in as simple terms as possible, your ph affects nutrient availability.

My teas are ph adjusted, mostly by my beasties.  Believe it or not, once my soil is balanced, I never check ph.  Part of this stems from my ability to 'read the leaves' or identify plant status visually though, so don't put away the tester yet.   You will need it when building your soil.  This mix above will surely work with 'good water' and no testing, but better to get your ph tester now and learn how to use it than later if problems show.

When you mix your soil and allow it to 'compost' or 'balance out' for 2 weeks, you are going to want to check your soil ph.  Organic amendments will always be on the acidic side.  To some extent, our beasties are going to help alot but a 'stable' mix will get things booming.  Ph can be lowered with nearly any organic amendment.  Peat, topsoil, e casings will all lower ph.  Dolomitic lime is a great long term 'ph upper' and in our mix is also an essential source of Ca, and Mg.  Oyster shell lime is great to have too for quick top dressing ph fixes, it is usually micronized and more quickly available.

To test your new 'homemade' soil mix, mix your containers normally and saturate them well.  Allow them to sit and dry out pretty well, not completely, but pretty dry (as if there was a plant in it).  After you have allowed the containers to 'dry cycle' several times (2 weeks) check your ph.  Also a good time to check the water retention of your soil during this process, if it seems a little compacted, add more perlite...but I wouldn't go over 30%.


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## Elephant Man

Abit about microbial farming...

Just so eveyone is on the same page..microbial farming is what we are doing.  There is more on this a few pages back in this journal, or tons on the net.  Search for it at google or pm me if you want to read more.

But for now, in a nutshell...we are in essence no longer 'growing a plant'.  We are attempting to recreate an 'extremely fertile' outdoor condition indoors.  We are growing microbes...benefecial micro organisms or 'beasties' as I (and my mentor) like to call them.  They will grow the plant.  They consist of nematodes, bacteria, and fungi, all forming a symbiosis with the plant.  In fact billions of beasties completely surround the roots, encasing them and protecting them.  They will control intake, protect from drought, control ph, fend off pests and pathogens, break down insoluables, and much more.  You must protect their lives and care for them, just as they are doing for the plant.  The most important way to do this, is by making sure you absolutely never introduce anything synthetic.  If you are not sure...ask me...I can find out.  It would be a terrible waste to set this all up and ruin it all as simply as adding one drop of something inorganic like 'superthrive' or 'miracle grow'.

I'm gonna try to not get too in depth on our particular microbes we use and why...but diversity is paramount.  FF POM ferts and guano and soilmixes like light warrior and bumper crop are pre-innoculated, I use as many sources as possible, but even one will get you going.  I use many other innoculants too.  I even grow my own, if you would like to use a seperate innoculant, I would recommend GH Subculture (not cheap) or Biozome.  Both have the largest concentration and diversity of any product I have used.  Basically, we are only going to sprinkle 1/4 tsps on roots during transplants, so a little goes a long way.

You can find Biozome here:

http://www.groworganic.com/item_ISO300_Biozome2LbSize.html

along with many of the other items I use.  Just about any hydro shop that carries GH products will have subculture.  Like I said, you really don't need this stuff, but it will help tremendously.  Once you get the feel for how this works...I highly recommend you experiment on your own...I will show you why.

One other thing I noticed is pretty much everyone has easy availability to lots of organic plant food sources...rabbit food is an excellent example of alfalfa meal, and if you ever wondered why I am such a big fan of alfalfa...just look at what it contains...

Triacontanol (growth stimulant) 
Vitamin A (high concentration) 
Thiamine 
Riboflavin 
Pantothenic Acid 
Niacin 
Pyridoxine 
Choline 
Bentaine 
Folic Acid 
co-enzymes 
Crude proteins (16 - 25% in dry alfalfa) 

Amino acids (% in alfalfa meal). 
Tryptophan, 0.3 % 
Aspartic Acid, 2.3% 
Threonine, 1.0 % 
Serine, 1.0% 
Glutamic Acid, 2.7% 
Proline, 1.2% 
Glycine, 1.1% 
Alanine, 1.1% 
Cystine, 0.2% 
Valine, 1.0% 
Methionine, 0.3% 
Isoleucine, 0.8% 
Leucine, 1.6% 
Tyrosine, 0.5% 
Phenylalanine, 1.0% 
Histidine, 0.4% 
Lysine, Total, 1.1% 
Arginine, 1.1% 

Minerals (contained in dry alfalfa) 
Nitrogen 3.75-5.5 % 
Potassium .75 - 3.5 % 
Phosphorus .3 - .7% 
Calcium 1 - 2 % 
Magnesium .30 - 1 % 
Sulphur .2 - .5 % 
Manganese 30-200 ppm 
Iron 20-250 ppm 
Boron 20-80 ppm 
Copper 5-20 ppm 
Zinc 20-70 ppm

No wonder Cannabunny likes it so much. 

Just an example of how all these ingrediants have been carefully selected and work in combination with each other.  And how easy it can be to get them.


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## Zarnon

Oye....

Mah haid done has the hurtin' thing goin' again!

I'll have to recheck this out more than 10 minutes before I have to leave for work LOL...

Interesting,  complex.  I'd still have to find a place to put it....but very good.   I'll be lookin' for the hydro mix mon.


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## Droster

Damn E-man your getting good at this whole growing thing lol. Good work and Nice set up.


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## Elephant Man

Thanks guys...it takes alot of work to post this stuff up for peeps.  I can throw a soilmix together in alot less time than it takes me to write it down...much less post it.  Good to know it is appreciated.  

Been reading alot of posts lately and decided to put this here for new growers:

Putting her in flower does not mean strip her and kick her out of the house.  Do not cut off N or switch immediately to flower nutes.  Feed her N for first couple of weeks and blend in your bloom ferts as she stops stretching.  Raise your light all the way up for the first day or 2 in transition.  Happy plants make happy growers, which means no stress.


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## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> Oye....
> 
> Mah haid done has the hurtin' thing goin' again!
> 
> I'll have to recheck this out more than 10 minutes before I have to leave for work LOL...
> 
> Interesting, complex. I'd still have to find a place to put it....but very good. I'll be lookin' for the hydro mix mon.


 
Ok...hydro mix...thas gonna be me and you bro'...I have yet to find a 'recipe' on the net for this, other than 'biobizz' or that new Canna you got. But it can be done bro, we will try it together, I have my bubblers ready and prolly' enough soluable stuff here.

Get this:

Blackstrap Unsulfured Molasses (so far making it fine through my pump.)
Fertell 3 Foliar plant food 2-1-1 (veg, filtered and enzymatic, and smells great!)
Squanto's Secret 2-4-2 enzymatic fish emulsion (bloom)
Peaceful Valley MicroPhos 0-2-0 (micronized and soluable)
Micronized rock phosphate or azomite (micros and traces) or use your 'mineral matrix' 
Botaniare Liquid Karma (insane catalyst only use on the kids) and Maxicrop liquid seaweed (dry soluable is mega potent and last forever)
Worm tea...there are a few brands on the market...I make my own. 
Apple cider vinegar
Fox Farm Big Bloom

There are a few other things that would be nice to have, or can be substituted,

Some I have:

Biobizz Fish Mix 2.1-0.2-6.6
Botanicare Hydrogaurd
Fulvic or Humic acid
Botanicare Pure Blend Original compost tea...Not Pure Blend Pro
Greenfuse Bloom stimulator
Biozome or GH Subculture
Filtered guano tea...I have seen a few products out there...I will probably make my own out of micronized.

Or...you could make a 'teabag' and put whatever you wanted in it...but I know you will probably want to have more control...so get as much of this stuff as you can eh? I have alot of micronized stuff that has shown to work great with our misters. That stuff is really cheap and concentrated so it lasts forever. Can even get dry soluable molasses too if you look around.

At one point I had clones going pretty darn well it my aerocloner (misters), too bad they were so close together , so I know it can be done.


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## Elephant Man

Lacto Bailli

One of the major workhorse beneficial indigenous microorganism used in natural farming is lacto bacilli. This particular beneficial microorganism is popularly used in composting that specifically arrest foul odors associated with anaerobic decomposition. Lactic acid bacteria thrive and feed on the ammonia released in the decomposition normally associated with foul odors. So if you need to decompose or ferment wastes less foul odors, lactic acid bacteria is the specific bacteria to use. Its application in organic farming is enormous. In aquaculture, one of the problem is related to water quality. Poor water quality stresses the fish which in turn stunts their growth and affects their health. This is very evident specially on high density and tank aquaculture. The ammonia produced through fish excretions pollute the water and stress the fish. With regular addition of this beneficial microorganisms to the water, this ammonia problem is minimized, if not fully arrested. It helps hasten or complete the denitrification or converting wastes into forms not harmful to fish.

Spraying diluted solution of lactic acid bacteria serum to the plant and soil helps plant growth and makes them more healthy. As it is applied to the soil or the leaves, these beneficial bacteria aid in the decomposition process, thus allowing more food to be available and assimilated by the plant.

Lactic acid bacteria is also known to produce enzymes and natural antibiotics aiding effective digestion and has antibacterial properties, including control of salmonella and e. coli. To farmers, what are observed are the general health of the plants and animals, better nutrient assimilation, feed conversion and certain toxins eliminations.

Heres a simple method of collecting this type of microorganism. Lactic acid bacteria can be collected from the air. Pour rice wash (solution generated when you wash the rice with water) on a container like plastic pot with lid. Allow air gap at least 50-75% of the container. The key here is the air space. Cover the (not vacuum tight, allowing air still to move into the container) container with lid loosely. Put the container in a quiet area with no direct sunlight. Allow the rice was to ferment for at least 5-7 days. Lactic acid bacteria will gather in 5-7 days when temperature is 20-25 degrees C. Rice bran will be separated and float in the liquid, like a thin film, smelling sour. Strain and simply get the liquid. Put this liquid in a bigger container and pour ten parts milk. The original liquid has been infected with different type of microbes including lacto bacilli. And in order to get the pure lacto bacilli, saturation of milk will eliminate the other microorganisms and the pure lacto bacilli will be left. You may use skim or powdered milk, although fresh milk is best. In 5-7 days, carbohydrate, protein and fat will float leaving yellow liquid (serum), which contain the lactic acid bacteria. You can dispose the coagulated carbohydrate, protein and fat, add them to your compost pile or feed them to your animals. The pure lactic acid bacteria serum can be stored in the refrigerator or simply add equal amount of crude sugar (dilute with 1/3 water) or molasses. Do not use refined sugar as they are chemically bleached and may affect the lactic acid bacteria. The sugar or molasses will keep the lactic acid bacteria alive at room temperature. One to one ratio is suggested although sugar, regardless of quantity is meant simply, serving as food for the bacteria to keep them alive. Now, these lactic acid bacteria serum with sugar or molasses will be your pure culture. To use, you can dilute this pure culture with 20 parts water. Make sure water is not chemically treated with, like chlorine. Remember, we are dealing with live microorganisms and chlorine can kill them. This diluted form 1:20 ratio will be your basic lactic acid bacteria concoction. Two to four tablespoons added to water of one gallon can be used as your basic spray and can be added to water and feeds of animals. For bigger animals, the 2-4 tablespoons of this diluted lactic acid bacteria serum should be used without diluting it further with water. Lactic acid bacteria serum can be applied to plant leaves to fortify phyllosphere microbes, to soil and compost. Of course, it will help improve digestion and nutrient assimilation for animals and other applications mentioned before. For any kind of imbalance, be it in the soil or digestive system, lacto bacilli can be of help.

One of the popular beneficial microorganism innoculant sfrom Japan (EM) contains lactic acid bacteria as its major component, including photosynthetic bacteria, yeasts, actinomycetes and fermenting fungi. These are pure culture imported from Japan and can be subcultured through the use of sugar or molasses. These other microbes can be cultured in several ways by farmers themselves.


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## fugly

the most awesome grow journal ever!!!!
maybe EM will start experimenting with strains later...and make his own cannibis cup winner - the Elephant Man strain  ...


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## newgreenthumb

Hey Eman nice post, very thorough as always.  I decided to germ some more seeds to see the difference between our micro-organism grows and synthetic nutes.  So far 6 have sprouted so I will be closely monitoring the growth rates in comparison.  By the way I did view your post, "the lab" on the other forum and as always, kick ***!


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## Elephant Man

Thanks guys!  Happy days.  

Been an exciting 8 weeks in flower with 'Big Herm' but today was finally the day for her big trim.  Plucked her on the amber side, to try and target back pain.  After a few pointers from my man HGB, I have decided to giver another go round.  She is now chillin' with a bunch of clones in veg.

This is what I got from 2 months veg, minus the big cola I took over a week ago.  No pic of the plate of popcorn...


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## Elephant Man

Got some new strains to add to the list:

So far I have these going:

Nirvana Special (Jack Herer x Oaxacan)
White Widow (Nirvana)
Biggie Small (Nirvana)
Blue Mystic (Nirvana)
Big Bagseed

And these just showed up:

Cherry Malawi
D99 x Clips
Swazi Safari
God x Afghan Dream

A pic of my bonsai sativa and (I think) my alpha male widow (favorite pheno)...I was going to clone the widows first, but now I think I will breed a few.


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## Zarnon

Good bro... be sure to give us a smoke report!

NGT!  Awesome.  That's a great idea.  Let us know how it stax up.  What syn nutes are you using?

I think the ultimate test would be to do EM mix vs. some bioorganic commercial mixes.  That stuff is costly (ie one liter of BioBoost or B'Cuzz about 85 bucks).

Anyways,  great to see so many experimenting and thinking!


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Congrats Eman on your Big Herm harvest. Hope she knocks your socks off when she is all dry and cured.  *


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## Zarnon

Dude,  what about B. subtilis?   Yr into healthy roots,  you should love this!  Our hydro store sells this live.

http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/biopesticides/ingredients/factsheets/factsheet_129068.htm

Can you point me to a link for lactobacillus?  I know it's a very beneficial organism for humans (displaces pathologic bacteria), but had not heard that for plants.   Since it's an aerobe (oxygen loving) could that affect the availability at the roots?  It also forms lactic acid from sugars.  What effect will that have on yr ph? 

http://www.answers.com/topic/lactobacillus

You could use yogurt for Lactobacilli.  There are also tabs that contain it in the health food store. 

Now L. Buchneri seems to help prevent fungal growth in silage so maybe there's a similar applicatilon to subtilis?  This might be that fermentation help you were talking about? 

Anyways, I'm a budding (get it?) plantologist and trying to learn more.


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## Elephant Man

Thanks TBG, put the quick dry on some of her (medical reasons) and she is a bit 'heady'.  Great morning coffee smoke, I have 2 clones from her already halfway through flower that I can let go longer.

Zarnon,

Posted a big article on bacilli one page back, subtillus is in just about everything I use, Hydrogaurd, FF POM, FF guano, etc. all contain subtillus. 

Biozome and GH Subculture both contain thousands of different species of beneficial microorganisms, fungal and bacterial.  Absolutely the easiest way to get your beasties nuclear, it's all about diversity.

Ph is not that important in microbial farming, many beneficials or 'beasties', will control nutrient intake...even if ph is not in the optimal range.  You really forget about growing the plant in the conventional sense, and concentrate on keeping your beasties happy and diversified.


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## Zarnon

I read your post, it's what prompted my thoughts.  You're using it to guard against anaerobes and aid in fermentation?  I did some more reading this morning and can see where it's used in composting.  Interestingly enough, a study using PCR DNA of microorganisms in composting the lactobacillus species were detectable the first 2-4 days.  It's also a nice microorganism profile of the composting process.

Table here:  [From - Applied and Environmental Microbiology]

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=91925&rendertype=table&id=T2

Original Study here:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=91925

I'm sure that varies by temp and other competing organisms, but it's nice to see someone tried to break down the composting micros in a timeline.

I guess what I was more worried about was the recc to put Lactobacili directly on or into plants/medium.  I am not seeing it's role as a root colonizer,  and still worry about putting an aerobic organism in an environment where your roots sorely depend on it.  In a tight root packed space I am not sure how that competition would play out.

Agreed about the bioavailability across a wide range of ph.  Everything I've read goes in with what you're saying.  The newest Biocanna products function that way as well (I think it was up to 6.2).


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## Elephant Man

Ummm....yeah...I have a HUGE library on my comp...never rely on saving links though...guess I could start posting it all....get ready for this journal to jump to about 30 pages over the weekend though.  

Gotta get a hold of me bro, answer my pm.


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## newgreenthumb

Hey Zarnon I sent you a pm so I wouldn't jack Eman's thread.


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## newgreenthumb

By the way Eman this thread gets me hyped on growing everytime I read this thing.


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## Elephant Man

There has been some mentioning of posts and links and such in administration and just trying to keep that to a minimum from now on.

Please pm me if anyone would like to do more reading on any of the information I post.


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## Zarnon

Well,  these are open links through pubmed.  They are what you pay your taxes for.  I don't know how to engage in any scientific discussion unless we are putting up links.   Did you get grief for putting up links before?  I can see posting a pic and stealing bandwidth,  but we are talking opensource Biology journals in a scientific discussion.

I'll check the pm,  but I prefer to do a discussion on the thread just because more people can learn from it.  If we're going have a discussion about a technical topic,  there has to be a way to examine what people are basing their rationale on.  I think it's fair to ask the same of me when I'm posting reccs on my thread.

Anyways,  if it's not welcome I'll stop.  I don't want to 'hijack' anyone's thread I'm just tryin to have a conversation.


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## Elephant Man

Here you go Zarnon...just one of about 2 dozen nice articles I have on "bio-organics':

Making Microorganisms Mobilize Soil Phosphorus

Alan E. Richardson
CSIRO Plant Industry, PO Box 1600, Canberra ACT 2601, AUSTRALIA

[email protected]

__________________

Microorganisms are involved in a range of processes that affect the transformation of soil phosphorus (P) and are thus an integral component of the soil P cycle.  In particular, soil microorganisms are effective in releasing P from inorganic and organic pools of total soil P through solubilization and mineralization.  The microbial biomass in soil also contains a significant quantity of immobilized P that is potentially available to plants.  Microorganisms therefore are critical for the transfer of P from poorly available soil pools to plant available forms and are important for maintaining P in readily available pools. These processes are likely to be most significant in the rhizosphere of plants.

Consequently, there has been longstanding interest in the manipulation of soil microorganisms to improve the P nutrition of plants, with the objective of increasing the overall efficiency of P-use in agricultural systems.  This interest stems from the fact that P deficiency is widespread on soils throughout the world, that P fertilizer represents a major cost for agricultural production and that the efficiency of P-use by plants from soil and fertilizer sources is poor.  Furthermore, P is a finite resource.  Based on current rate of use, it is expected that the worlds known reserves of high quality rock phosphate will be depleted within the current century (Isherwood, 2000).  Beyond this time the production of phosphate-based fertilizers will require the processing of lower-grade rock phosphates at significantly higher cost.  Alternatively, the direct use of rock phosphates as fertilizers will require an effective means for solubilization. These issues are particularly relevant to soils throughout developing countries and on acidic soils in tropical and subtropical regions (Hedley et al., 1995). It is also imperative that management of P fertilizers in agricultural environments is improved (particularly in more highly P fertilized environments) so that any adverse environmental effects due to P losses are minimized (Tunney et al., 1997).  

The concept of using soil microorganisms to improve mobilization of poorly available forms of soil P is not new. It is now some 50 years since Gerretsen (1948) first showed that pure cultures of soil bacteria could increase the P nutrition of plants through increased solubility of Ca-phosphates.  Volumes of literature have since been published, a great deal has been promised, but it is fair to say that not much has been delivered.  Clearly, microbial-plant interactions in soil environments are complex and, with few exceptions, have proven difficult to manipulate (reviewed by Richardson, 2001).  Therefore, the challenge remains.  Indeed, opportunities for exploiting soil microorganisms for P-mobilisation are improved as knowledge of the processes and understanding of the ecology of microorganisms in soil environments is gained.  Such opportunities are further enhanced with the advent of new techniques.  These include the possibility for direct manipulation of organisms through gene technology.  

In this paper, recent issues concerning the mobilization of soil P by microorganisms are summarized and some opportunities for the future are discussed.       

Phosphorus mobilization by soil microorganisms

Microorganisms directly affect the ability of plants to acquire P from soil through a number of structural or process-mediated mechanisms. These include (i) an increase in the surface area of roots by either an extension of existing root systems (eg, mycorrhizal associations) or by enhancement of root branching and root hair development (ie, growth stimulation through phytohormones), (ii) by displacement of sorption equilibria that results in increased net transfer of phosphate ions into soil solution or an increase in the mobility of organic forms of P and (iii) through stimulation of metabolic processes that are effective in directly solubilizing and mineralizing P from poorly available forms of inorganic and organic P.  These processes include the excretion of hydrogen ions, the release of organic acids, the production of siderophores and the production of phosphatase enzymes that are able to hydrolyse soil organic P (Figure 1).  In particular, organic acids and associated protons are effective in solubilizing precipitated forms of soil P (eg, Fe- and Al-P in acid soils, Ca-P in alkaline soils), chelating metal ions that may be associated with complexed forms of P or may facilitate the release of adsorbed P through ligand exchange reactions (Jones, 1998).  




Figure 1. Schematic representation of major physiological factors associated with plant roots and soil microorganisms that influence the availability of soil P in the rhizosphere (from Richardson, 2001).

However, distinction between the roles of microbial processes, as distinct from direct effects of plant mechanisms, on P mobilization in soil is poorly understood.  It is well established that plant roots effectively increase P acquisition through modified root growth and architecture and similarly produce metabolites that directly influence P availability (Raghothama, 1999).  Processes such as rhizosphere acidification, exudation of organic acids and secretion of phosphatases from plant roots occur in response to P deficiency, and are established mechanisms by which plants acquire P (Randall et al., 2001).  Furthermore, it has been suggested that microbial-mediated processes on their own may be insignificant in soil environments, and are unlikely to mobilize sufficient P for plant requirements (Tinker 1980).  This argument remains to be resolved.  On the other hand, the importance of the microbial biomass for P cycling in soil and the potential of this P to contribute to plant P nutrition is more difficult to deny.

Soil microbial biomass phosphorus and contribution to plant nutrition

The microbial biomass in soil contains a significant amount of P (typically 10 to 50 kg P/ha, but as high as 100 kg P/ha) and generally accounts for 2 to 5% of the total P and around 10 to 15% of the soil organic P.  Importantly, microbial P is a dynamic component of the soil P cycle and is responsive to soil fertility, seasonal conditions and management practices.  Whilst the P content of microbial biomass may vary considerably in relation to microbial C, it is evident that significant pools are maintained even in soils considered to be P deficient for plant growth (Oberson et al., 2001). This indicates that microorganisms in soil are highly efficient in acquiring P to meet their own requirements.  In addition, it has been shown that soil microorganisms are capable of rapidly assimilating P supplied from fertilizer or as plant residues.  For instance, McLaughlin et al (1988) showed that some 25% of P in labelled crop residues was incorporated into microbial biomass within 7 days. 

A number of studies have highlighted the potential importance of microbial P in providing available P to plants.  Seasonal dynamics indicate that significant amounts of P are released from the biomass in response to soil moisture deficiency and it is estimated that soil microbial P is completely turned over at least annually (He et al., 1997).  More recent studies have found that the rate of P-flux through the microbial biomass is, in fact, considerably greater (Odel et al., 2000, Oberson et al., 2001).  Incubation studies using labelled phosphate have shown both a rapid incorporation of P into biomass (within 2 to 3 days) and concomitant release of the P back to soil solution.  Significantly, these transfers of P occurred in the absence of any significant changes in the size of the microbial P pool.  Highest rates of P cycling through the biomass were evident in P-deficient soil and in soils that received organic inputs, as distinct from those that were P-fertilized. The capacity of the microbial biomass to immobilize P was also increased by the provision of soluble C, which resulted in an increase in both the size of the microbial P pool and its rate of turnover. 

These observations have important implications concerning the contribution of microbial P to plant nutrition.  First, the significance of P immobilization within the soil microflora and its effect on the short-term availability of P to plants is not clear.  Likewise, processes that affect the release of P from the microbial biomass and its subsequent availability to plants require further investigation.  Although P in microorganisms occurs predominantly in organic forms (or as polyphosphates), the P appears to be rapidly mineralised and is readily available for uptake by plant roots (Macklon et al., 1997).  However, in soil environments the availability of released P will be influenced by spatial and temporal factors and will also be subject to further immobilization (by both soil micro- and macro-flora and fauna) and other physico-chemicals reactions of P in soil.  The actual contribution that P-turnover through microorganisms makes to the mobilization of soil P therefore remains to be fully determined.  Nevertheless, it is well known that soil P is significantly depleted in close proximity to roots, that roots release significant quantities of C that is available to soil microorganisms and that microbial populations in the rhizosphere are enhanced by many orders of magnitude (Bowen and Rovira, 1999).  Therefore, the potential for turnover of P by rhizosphere microorganisms is substantial, and further work needs to be undertaken to quantify it in terms of enhancing plant P nutrition.


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## Elephant Man

Using microorganisms to improve soil phosphorus availability

Recognition that microorganisms are important for P mobilization in soil has led to research effort directed at improving plant P nutrition. Essentially, there are two major strategies for manipulating soil microorganisms: 

(i)    Management of existing microbial populations to optimize their capacity to mobilize P.

Success with this approach requires detailed knowledge of how soil management practices (eg, crop rotations, soil amendments, cultivation, etc.) impact on microbial abundance, diversity and presence of various functional groups and how these relate to the magnitude and availability of different soil P fractions.  The manipulation of VA mycorrhizas in soil through crop rotation is one example of how populations might be managed to increase the availability of soil P to plants (Thompson 1994).  Increased mineralisation of organic P generally occurs in response to soil cultivation and crop rotation has been shown to increase the rate of P cycling through the microbial biomass.  For example, incorporation of organic residues through legume rotation resulted in higher biological activity and increased microbial P uptake and release (Oberson et al., 2001).  Although the contribution of P released through these processes needs to be evaluated in relation to plant uptake, such observations indicate that management opportunities do exist for increasing the cycling of P and its maintenance in plant-available pools.   Elucidation as to whether or not the availability of this P can be synchronized with plant requirements, or be targeted to the rhizosphere, remains a significant challenge.  

(ii)  The use of specific microbial inoculants to increase P mobilization.  

A range of soil microorganisms able to solubilize precipitated forms of P or mineralize organic P has been characterized.  Typically, such organisms have been isolated using cultural procedures, with species of Pseudomonas and Bacillus bacteria and Aspergillus and Penicillium fungi being predominant.  These organisms are commonly associated with the rhizosphere and, when inoculated onto plants, often result in improved growth and P nutrition with responses being observed under both glasshouse and field conditions (see reviews by Kucey et al., 1989; Rodríguez and Fraga, 1999; Whitelaw, 2000).  Despite this, there are few examples of successful application of microbial inoculants.  Essentially, a lack of consistent performance under different environmental conditions in the field has precluded their wider use.  A number of factors can be identified to explain this variable performance (Richardson, 2001).  They include (i) poor understanding of the actual mechanisms involved in plant growth promotion where, in fact, P mobilization may not necessarily be the primary mechanism involved, (ii) selection of microorganisms by laboratory screening may be insufficiently rigorous when organisms are required to mobilize P in soil environments, (iii) the apparent lack of any specific association between phosphate solubilizing microorganisms and host plants, (iv) poor understanding of interactions between physical and chemical characteristics of soil and how these interact with biological P availability, (v) poor knowledge of how to deliver microorganisms into soil environments and of how to establish them as dominant components of complex microbial communities and, in particular, of their capability of colonizing the rhizosphere, and (vi) in most instances the benefits of microbial mobilization of P may in fact be indirect.  In short, whilst microorganisms may directly solubilize P to meet their own requirements, subsequent benefits to plants may only occur following turnover of the microbial biomass.

It is evident therefore that the proposition for developing inoculants for routine application remains problematic and a number of issues still need to be addressed.  Nevertheless, some microorganisms show consistent plant growth promotion under glasshouse and field conditions and have been developed as commercial inoculants (eg., Penicillium spp., Leggett et al., 2001).  Although growth promotion in such cases is generally associated with increased plant P nutrition, it is difficult in many cases to ascertain whether increased P-mobilization is either the cause or the consequence of the response.  Similarly, many other organisms (including mixed populations of soil bacteria and fungi, that often are only poorly characterized) have been promoted as commercial inoculants with claims that they increase plant growth through P-mobilization.  Unfortunately, in most cases detailed evidence to support these claims does not exist.

Prospects for enhancing phosphorus mobilization by soil microorganisms

There seems little doubt that soil microorganisms are essential for the cycling of P in terrestrial ecosystems and as such, play an important role either directly or indirectly in mediating phosphate availability to plants.  However, attempts to capitalise on microbial processes to increase plant access to P from soil and/or fertilizer sources have generally met with limited success.  It is reasonable to assume that future opportunities will increase as understanding of the processes of P mobilization and the ecology of microorganisms in soil environments improves.  Development of novel techniques and access to new technologies will be important.  Recent developments in microbial community analysis that do not rely on cultural procedures will provide better understanding of how microorganisms interact in complex environments.  For example, elegant procedures are now available for detection and visualization of specific microorganisms in the rhizosphere (eg, Ranjard et al., 2000, Theron and Cloete, 2000). 

Opportunity also exists for genetic manipulation of soil microorganisms.  It is now a reality that gene technologies can be used to enhance specific traits that may increase an organisms capacity to mobilize soil P directly, enhance its ability to colonize the rhizosphere (ie, rhizosphere competence, Lugtenberg et al., 2001), or even to form specific associations with plant roots (Bowen and Rovia, 1999).  Alternatively, microorganisms may provide a novel source of genes for directly modifying plants.  For example, it has been reported that, when expressed in roots, a bacterial citrate synthase gene increases the exudation of organic acids and significantly improves plant access to soil P (López-Bucio et al., 2000).  The credibility of this report has however been questioned (Delhaize et al., 2001).  The ability of plants to use P from phytate, which is a predominant form of organic P in most soils, has been shown to be dependent on the presence of soil microorganisms and utilisation of phytate-P was significantly improved when an Aspergillus phytase gene is expressed directly in plant roots (Richardson et al., 2001a, Richardson et al., 2001b).  Although such approaches require further validation, particularly in soil environments, they highlight that new opportunities do exist.  However, it is also important to recognize that any approach to increase the mobilization of soil P through genetic modification, whether it be of soil microorganisms or plants themselves, will also need to satisfy a range of community issues.    

The promise of exploiting soil microorganisms to increase mobilization of soil P remains.  Whether or not this will be achieved through better management of soil microbial communities, by development of more effective microbial inoculants, through the genetic manipulation of specific organisms or with a combination of these approaches is not known.  Nevertheless, what is clear is that soil microorganisms play an important role in the mobilization of soil P and that detailed understanding of their contribution to the cycling of P in soil-plant systems is required for the development of sustainable agriculture.


----------



## Elephant Man

Since you go to the hydro shop, I know you have seen the magazine 'Maximum yield'...right?  There has been at least one article a month in it on organics...you can check out past articles here:

http://www.maximumyield.com/past-issues-about-hydroponic-gardening.php


----------



## Zarnon

Dude,  it's sooo tiring to dig through an entire website for an answer to a specific question.  Getting a link specific to the topic is more useful than just reading a whole mag.   I dunno where to begin.  I did read an 'herbal tea' prep article which had some ingredients sim to what you're using.  I still need to follow up on the lit tho...  

I do not read much literature aimed at MJ cultivation.  I think a lot is replete with errors. Initially I read some of the 'bibles' of growing but had problems with lack of hard knowledge or specifics.  Little to no citatations with a lot of untested hypothesis.  Sorry!  

So now when I have q's I go to botany sites,  agricultural sites, or search pubmed which is one of the largest scientific databases in the world.  While I like learn from other people's experience,  I temper that with doing my own reading.   Not tryin to be difficult,  just the way I do it.

I did some reading on your link in my pm but still couldn't find what I was looking for.  I'm going to do some searching to understand aerobic bacteria's role at the root level (which I can already see is useful).  Where and which micros fit into that is another level methinks.

RE:  Above article:  This was good EM.  It led to some other reading which was cool.  I can see the usefulness in looking at microorganisms and P release (although most commercial preps use bioavailable NPK).  I think these cautions are appropriate;

_"Although growth promotion in such cases is generally associated with increased plant P nutrition, it is difficult in many cases to ascertain whether increased P-mobilization is either the cause or the consequence of the response. 

Similarly, many other organisms (including mixed populations of soil bacteria and fungi, that often are only poorly characterized) have been promoted as commercial inoculants with claims that they increase plant growth through P-mobilization. Unfortunately, in most cases detailed evidence to support these claims does not exist."_

This is the crux of my ongoing questions regarding 'detailed evidence' about specific microorganisms.  Aspergillus,  Penicillum sp have been beneficial with N fixation so stands to reason they'd help P mobilization (cool to learn that too). 

But lacto has to be examined on its own.  I gotta look at each piece before fitting them together. I have learned the hard way that adding more stuff, without looking into it first has caused me more problems than benefit.

Yes,  the area around the roots is a very interesting topic and I will delve deeper into it (mentally adds to learning list).  Gee, the more I read about this, the more I get interested in doing a soilless grow.


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> Well, these are open links through pubmed. They are what you pay your taxes for. I don't know how to engage in any scientific discussion unless we are putting up links. Did you get grief for putting up links before? I can see posting a pic and stealing bandwidth, but we are talking opensource Biology journals in a scientific discussion.
> 
> I'll check the pm, but I prefer to do a discussion on the thread just because more people can learn from it. If we're going have a discussion about a technical topic, there has to be a way to examine what people are basing their rationale on. I think it's fair to ask the same of me when I'm posting reccs on my thread.
> 
> Anyways, if it's not welcome I'll stop. I don't want to 'hijack' anyone's thread I'm just tryin to have a conversation.


 
Whatever you want to post in my journal is fine with me bro, maximum respect for you...just gonna take me a couple days to find links...I generally don't save them.


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> But I'm not sure how this article relates to using lacto or whether an aerobe is harmful to roots, but nm.
> 
> Also, dude, I just cannot dig through an entire website for an answer to a specific question. I did some reading but on your link in my pm but still couldn't find what I was looking for.
> 
> I can see the usefulness in looking at overall biomass of microorganisms in general and P release (although most commercial preps use bioavailable NPK). Still I thought this was about Lactobacillus? Are you saying Lacto is one of those P mobilizing microorganisms?


 
Sorry, didn't realize we were talking about lacto only...

No, the way I see it...Lacto is like a vaccine...it is I believe, one of the only organisms that actually kill pathogens...the massive populations in general I use only run pathogens out of food...they do not generally attack them. Lacto is also the only beastie I know of that can break down salts too...not that we should have any salt, being all organic. So you see, it is a safety measure...a monthly vaccination...anyway, that is the way I use it. It is excellent to add to compost too, as a prep.

I would not say it is 'necessary', especially if your beasties are booming like mine...but it is an excellent soil prep, easy to culture yourself, a necessity when recycling soil, and a great monthly treatment for your plants.

As far as 'readily available' NPK in teas, you have to keep in mind that beasties will consume some...depending on how long you brew it. I generally like to cause my beasties to 'boom' and 'recede' with teas, and in flower...we want to really get the 'fungal' type going, because we won't need so much N.


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> Dude, it's sooo tiring to dig through an entire website for an answer to a specific question. Getting a link specific to the topic is more useful than just reading a whole mag. I dunno where to begin. I did read an 'herbal tea' prep article which had some ingredients sim to what you're using. I still need to follow up on the lit tho...
> 
> I do not read much literature aimed at MJ cultivation. I think a lot is replete with errors. Initially I read some of the 'bibles' of growing but had problems with lack of hard knowledge or specifics.
> 
> So now when I have q's I go to botany sites, agricultural sites, or search pubmed which is one of the largest scientific databases in the world. While I like learn from other people's experience, I temper that with doing my own reading. Not tryin to be difficult, just the way I do it.
> 
> I did some reading on your link in my pm but still couldn't find what I was looking for.
> 
> RE: Above article: I can see the usefulness in looking at overall biomass of microorganisms in general and P release (although most commercial preps use bioavailable NPK). I think his cautions here are appropriate;
> 
> _"Although growth promotion in such cases is generally associated with increased plant P nutrition, it is difficult in many cases to ascertain whether increased P-mobilization is either the cause or the consequence of the response. _
> 
> _Similarly, many other organisms (including mixed populations of soil bacteria and fungi, that often are only poorly characterized) have been promoted as commercial inoculants with claims that they increase plant growth through P-mobilization. Unfortunately, in most cases detailed evidence to support these claims does not exist."_
> 
> I think this is the crux of my ongoing questions regarding specific microorganisms. I think there's value in them, but I want to look at it's usefulness with each piece I add. I have learned the hard way that adding more stuff, more things can really throw my grow off (happened this time) just by hearing a 'good idea' and not looking into it.


 
I need my own 'organics' forum to really cover everything I have read. I see what your saying about components, but that is a long dusty road my freind. Out of all the beneficials I use, I know specifics on about a dozen...out of thousands. I am not sure anyone knows all of their purposes...I do know alot more is known about the mycorrhizael type (fungal) than the bacterial type.

I do not think anyone knows which species of myco will inhabit mj either. Everything I have read says it depends on environment, as these beasties are often infinately adaptable.

Microbial farming has been around for a long time, I have about a month reading in it. I can tell you where to collect a few species of myco on your own, but as far as what they will do or whether or not they will inhabit your plant...well...
I can tell you this though...they live in symbiance with the plant...and in no way will be harmful.
I can also tell you this...it works.
My plants are impervious to drought, pests, deficiencies, ph, and more.
And believe me...I am still trying to kill one...the only way I know for sure to do so is to add something synthetic and wipe out your soillife, or, with constant powerful innoculations, you can rob a plant of P...but even that has not succeeded in killing one.


----------



## Elephant Man

http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/soil_food_web.html

http://www.newfarm.org/features/0404/microorgs/index.shtml

http://www.agriton.nl/higa.html

http://www.sunseed.org.uk/page.asp?p=167

http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/index.html

Some of my favorite places to read...

...and my favorite one of them all.

http://www.attra.ncat.org/


----------



## Zarnon

Cool!  I'll look into it.

I agree, it's a very very complex and incompletely understood area.   I thinn the more we apply rigorous scientific  principles, the more successful we're going to be in creating the 'ultra mix'.


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> Cool! I'll look into it.
> 
> I agree, it's a very very complex and incompletely understood area. I thinn the more we apply rigorous scientific principles, the more successful we're going to be in creating the 'ultra mix'.


 
Yeah...I'm gonna start messing with a few soon...currently looking at beastie freindly ways to adjust ph...if even necessary.

Few pics of my weeds too:


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats going on Eman. Man them ladies in the pics look killer. Whatever that stuff is that you feed them sure does the job. One of these days were gonna quit the MG and try our own mix but as of now it's not broke so were not gonna fix it.   As always my friend great job.  *


----------



## Elephant Man

THE BROTHER'S GRUNT said:
			
		

> *Whats going on Eman. Man them ladies in the pics look killer. Whatever that stuff is that you feed them sure does the job. One of these days were gonna quit the MG and try our own mix but as of now it's not broke so were not gonna fix it.  As always my friend great job.  *


 
Thanks TBG...I would love to see you get yourself some FF Ocean Forest and some FF POM ferts...that's all you really need with the big bloom to be organic.


----------



## Elephant Man

Just in case there were any of you in doubt of the extent of my madness...here you go.  An all seed grow.  

6 prime young ladies and one lucky male...actually, male pheno b is still in there...'lesser stag scent' and all lol.  

Specially designed cab, 24K lumens of overdriven flouros (512w), filtered intake and exhaust, externally controlled misting system...don't try this at home.  

2 White Widow males (99% sure only pheno A is staying once they are ripe)
2 White Widow females (2 best phenos of 5)
2 Blue Mystic clones
2 Nirvana Special clones

Let the pollen fly.   Go get em' boy.


----------



## Elephant Man

Been helping a few peeps out messing with organics...this is the most complete list of organic npk profiles I have to date:

Alfalfa Hay: 2.45/05/2.1 
Apple Fruit: 0.05/0.02/0.1 
Apple Leaves: 1.0/0.15/0.4 
Apple Pomace: 0.2/0.02/0.15 
Apple skins(ash) : 0/3.0/11/74 
Banana Residues (ash): 1.75/0.75/0.5 
Barley (grain): 0/0/0.5 
Barley (straw): 0/0/1.0 
Basalt Rock: 0/0/1.5 
Bat Guano: 5.0-8.0/4.0-5.0/1.0 
Beans, garden(seed and hull): 0.25/0.08/03 
Beet Wastes: 0.4/0.4/0.7-4.1 
Blood meal: 15.0/0/0 
Bone Black: 1.5/0/0 
Bonemeal (raw): 3.3-4.1/21.0/0.2 
Bonemeal (steamed): 1.6-2.5/21.0/0.2 
Brewery Wastes (wet): 1.0/0.5/0.05 
Buckwheat straw: 0/0/2.0 
Cantaloupe Rinds (ash): 0/9.77/12.0 
Castor pomace: 4.0-6.6/1.0-2.0/1.0-2.0 
Cattail reeds and water lily stems: 2.0/0.8/3.4 
Cattail Seed: 0.98/0.25/0.1 
Cattle Manure (fresh): 0.29/0.25/0.1 
Cherry Leaves: 0.6/0/0.7 
Chicken Manure (fresh): 1.6/1.0-1.5/0.6-1.0 
Clover: 2/0/0/0 (also contains calcium) 
Cocoa Shell Dust: 1.0/1.5/1.7 
Coffee Grounds: 2.0/0.36/0.67 
Corn (grain): 1.65/0.65/0.4 
Corn (green forage): 0.4/0.13/0.33 
Corn cobs: 0/0/2.0 
Corn Silage: 0.42/0/0 
Cornstalks: 0.75/0/0.8 
Cottonseed hulls (ash): 0/8.7/23.9Cottonseed Meal: 7.0/2.0-3.0/1.8 
Cotton Wastes (factory): 1.32/0.45/0.36 
Cowpea Hay: 3.0/0/2.3 
Cowpeas (green forage): 0.45/0.12/0.45 
Cowpeas (seed): 3.1/1.0/1.2 
Crabgrass (green): 0.66/0.19/0.71 
Crabs (dried, ground): 10.0/0/0 (I personally just crush the shells with my foot) 
Crabs (fresh): 5.0/3.6/0.2 
Cucumber Skins (ash): 0/11.28/27.2 ( WOW!!!! Who knew???) 
Dried Blood: 10.0-14.0/1.0-5.0/0 
Duck Manure (fresh): 1.12/1.44/0.6 
Eggs: 2.25/0.4/0.15 
Eggshells: 1.19/0.38/0.14 
Feathers: 15.3/0/0 
Felt Wastes: 14.0/0/1.0 
Field Beans (seed): 4.0/1.2/1.3 
Feild Beans (shells): 1.7/0.3/1.3 
Fish (dried, ground): 8.0/7.0/0 
Fish Scraps (fresh): 6.5/3.75/0 
Gluten Meal: 6.4/0/0 
Granite Dust: 0/0/3.0-5.5 
Grapefruit Skins (ash): 0/3.6/30.6 (And people throw these things away? Wow!) 
Grape Leaves: 0.45/0.1/0.4 
Grape Pomace: 1.0/0.07/0.3 
Grass (imature): 1.0/0/1.2 
Greensand: 0/1.5/7.0 
Hair: 14/0/0/0 
Hoof and Horn Meal: 12.5/2.0/0 
Horse Manure (fresh): 0.44/0.35/0.3 
Incinerator Ash: 0.24/5.15/2.33 
Jellyfish (dried): 4.6/0/0 
Kentucky Bluegrass (green): 0.66/0.19/0.71 
Kentucky Bluegrass (hay): 1.2/0.4/2.0 
Leather Dust: 11.0/0/0 
Lemon Culls: 0.15/0.06/0.26 
Lemon Skins (ash): 06.33/1.0 
Lobster Refuse: 4.5/3.5/0 
Milk: 0.5/0.3/0.18 
Millet Hay: 1.2/0/3.2 
Molasses Residue 
(From alcohol manufacture): 0.7/0/5.32 
Molasses Waste 
(From Sugar refining): 0/0/3.0-4.0 
Mud (fresh water): 1.37/0.26/0.22 
Mud (harbour): 0.99/0.77/0.05 
Mud (salt): 0.4.0/0 
Mussels: 1.0/0.12/0.13 
Nutshells: 2.5/0/0 
Oak Leaves: 0.8/0.35/0.2 
Oats (grain): 2.0/0.8/0.6 
Oats (green fodder): 0.49/0/0 
Oat straw: 0/0/1.5 
Olive Pomace: 1.15/0.78/1.3 
Orange Culls: 0.2/0.13/0.21
Orange Skins: 0/3.0/27.0 (Right up there with Grapefruit. Note: both can attract fruit flies so, bury them in the compost) 
Oyster Shells: 0.36/0/0 
Peach Leaves: 0.9/0.15/0.6 
Pea forage: 1.5-2.5/0/1.4 
Peanuts (seed/kernals): 3.6/0.7/0.45 
Peanut Shells: 3.6/0.15/0.5 (I grind them up in the food processor first) 
Pea Pods (ash): 0/3.0/9.0 (I cut them up with a pair of scissors while shelling them) 
Pea (vines): 0.25/0/0.7 
Pear Leaves: 0.7/0/0.4 
Pigeon manure (fresh): 4.19/2.24/1.0 
Pigweed (rough): 0.6/0.1/0 
Pine Needles: 0.5/0.12/0.03 
Potato Skins (ash): 0/5.18/27.5 
Potaote Tubers: 0.35/0.15/2.5 
Potatoe Vines (dried): 0.6/0.16/1.6 
Prune Refuse: 0.18/0.07/0.31 
Pumpkins (fresh): 0.16/0.07/0.26 
Rabbitbrush (ash): 0/0/13.04 
Rabbit Manure: 2.4/1.4/0.6 
Ragweed: 0.76/0.26/0 
Rapeseed meal: 0/1.0=2.0/1.0=3.0 
Raspberry leaves: 1.45/0/0.6 
Red clover hay: 2.1/0.6/2.1 
Redrop Hay: 1.2/0.35/1.0
Rock and Mussel Deposits 
From Ocean: 0.22/0.09/1.78 
Roses (flowers): 0.3/0.1/0.4 
Rye Straw: 0/0/1.0 
Salt March Hay: 1.1/0.25/0.75 
Sardine Scrap: 8.0/7.1/0 
Seaweed (dried): 1.1-1.5/0.75/4.9 (Seaweed is loaded with micronutrients including: Boron, Iodine, Magnesium and so on.) 
Seaweed (fresh): 0.2-0.4/0/0 
Sheep and Goat Manure (fresh): 0.55/0.6/0.3 
Shoddy and Felt: 8.0/0/0 
Shrimp Heads (dried): 7.8/4.2/0 
Shrimp Wastes: 2.9/10.0/0 
Siftings From Oyster Shell Mounds: 0.36/10.38/0.09 
Silk Mill Wastes: 8.0/1.14/1.0 
Silkworm Cocoons:10.0/1.82/1.08 
Sludge: 2.0/1.9/0.3 
Sludge (activated): 5.0/2.5-4.0/0.6 
Smokehouse/Firepit Ash:0/0/4.96 (I put the ashes from my smoker in the pile) 
Sorghum Straw:0/0/1.0 
Soybean Hay: 1.5-3.0/0/1.2-2.3 
Starfish: 1.8/0.2/0.25
Sugar Wastes (raw): 2.0/8.0/0 
Sweet Potatoes: 0.25/0.1/0.5 
Swine Manure (fresh): 0.6/0.45/0.5 
Tanbark Ash: 0/0.34/3.8 
Tanbark Ash (spent): 0/1.75/2.0 
Tankage: 3.0-11.0/2.0-5.0/0 
Tea Grounds: 4.15/0.62/0.4 
Timothy Hay: 1.2/0.55/1.4 
Tobacco Leaves: 4.0/0.5/6.0 
Tobacco Stems: 2.5-3.7/0.6-0.9/4.5-7.0 
Tomatoe Fruit: 0.2/0.07/0.35 (A note on tomatoe fruit: These should be hot composted. I just let any rotted or insect eaten tomatoes compost in the soil beneath the plants and have "freebees" come back each consecutive year. Hot composting will kill the seeds.) 
Tomatoe Leaves: 0.35/0.1/0.4 
Tomatoe Stalks: 0.35/0.1/0.5 
Tung Oil Pumace: 6.1/0/0 
Vetch Hay: 2.8/0/2.3 
Waste Silt: 9.5/0/0 
Wheat Bran: 2.4/2.9/1.6 
Wheat (grain): 2.0/0.85/0.5 
Wheat Straw: 0.5/0.15/0.8 
White Clover (Green): 0.5/0.2/0.3 
Winter Rye Hay: 0/0/1.0 
Wood Ash: 0/1.0-2.0/6.0-10.0 (A note on Wood ash: Wood Ash can contain chemicals that could harm plants and also carcinogens so, they should be composted in moderation) 
Wool Wastes: 3.5-6.0/2.0-4.0/1.0-3.5


----------



## Elephant Man

Bit more:

Organic fertilizer:

Nitrogen sources:
legumes (pea, fava, alfalfa, clover, etc. ) 
with inoculant
increase N, P, K, and make soil more acidic
vetch and rye - plant in the fall,
work in as green manure in spring 
2 weeks before planting
or stalk chop as mulch 
alfalfa - inoculate with Rhizobium meliloti
from Bountiful Gardens

Potassium sources - for flowering and fruit
wood chips, Russian Comfrey, stinging nettle, 
grass family, yarrow, maple leaves, borage, 
clover, sunflower family

Phosphorous sources - for root growth and strong stem
comfrey, oak leaves, yarrow, clover, alfalfa, castor
bone or rock phosphate - needed if soil is alkaline,
plant directly in it

Micro nutrients:
Boron - borax(only add if known deficiency), cabbage, 
cauliflower, apple, echinacea will fix boron
Cobolt - comfrey, willow herb
Zinc - granite dust
Silica - granite dust, sand, grains, thistle???
Manganese - alfalfa, leaf mold, comfrey
Sulphur - alliums, brassicas
Copper - dandelion, stinging nettle, yarrow
Molybdenum - alfalfa, rock phosphate - don't mix with soil
Calcium - comfrey, dandelion, stinging nettle, kudzu
, borage, chicory
causes soil to be fluffy and well aerated
Magnesium - yarrow
Aluminium - peas, sunflower, grains
Iron - legumes, comfrey, dandelion, stinging nettle
Trace minerals - granite meal, greensand (glauconite)
, kelp meal


----------



## newgreenthumb

You are a "Mad Scientist" and I love it!  Keep it up. :farm:


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Eman where you at dude. Haven't seen ya around since 01/24/07. Hope everything is ok your way mang.  *


----------



## stunzeed

Truely one of the best and most interesting reads on this forum. You are a very talented grower and photogrowfer E man and after reading this thread I definitly look at your stuff the same as TBG, Hick, Turkey, Zarnon and....... E man. Keep it up brother.



Stunzeed..


----------



## laylow6988

Hey I see you have been busy while I have been gone. Looking good, looking good man. You are going to end up with more pot than you know what to do with. But who says that is a bad thing right? I got my babies going finally. It's wild that some of you didn't start all that long ago and are showing off such a nice crop. I can only hope mine turns out as good as what I have seen in yours. Good job, happy harvest man!
:2940th_rasta:


----------



## Elephant Man

Sorry guys...been hectic over here. Finally got first grow under my belt and decided to sit down and do the math and come up with a plan. Tore everything down, moved everything around and setting up for soil SOG, gonna be the best way to do what I like best, play with soilmixes and try different strains to target pain. Put all my mothers in flower to start over on them too...gonna bonsai new ones and may have close to 60 in 4x6 room. Still experimenting on pot sizes for SOG but flower room will be 9'x4' with 2300 watts. Some pics:


----------



## Elephant Man

More random pics...200 site aerocloner,reveg, male in full bloom, etc.


----------



## newgreenthumb

And they say weed smokers are "unproductive".  _To know it is to grow it_.  You my friend are the man I must say!  Nice setup you got there eman.:clap:  Can't wait to see how your SOG turns out.  :farm:


----------



## Elephant Man

newgreenthumb said:
			
		

> And they say weed smokers are "unproductive". _To know it is to grow it_. You my friend are the man I must say! Nice setup you got there eman.:clap: Can't wait to see how your SOG turns out. :farm:


 
Thanks NGT!  Gave all the veggers a guano/e casting/molasses aerobic tea feeding and a fish and trace foliar yesterday and wow...entered grow to some amazing smiles today.   Gonna try and share some of them with you, even though my photography still stinks.    Just veggers today...


----------



## Zarnon

stunzeeds said:
			
		

> Truely one of the best and most interesting reads on this forum. You are a very talented grower and photogrowfer



True dat!  I really like how EM is always searching and how he does it in a really earnest way.  I may not agree with everything,  but I can see where he's coming from.  He treads where I fear so I'm giving him his props hee hee.

Dude,  if your camera has a macro you really need to take a close up of those male flowers!  So few grow 'em. First with the 'hermie' now the male... oye!


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> True dat! I really like how EM is always searching and how he does it in a really earnest way. I may not agree with everything, but I can see where he's coming from. He treads where I fear so I'm giving him his props hee hee.
> 
> Dude, if your camera has a macro you really need to take a close up of those male flowers! So few grow 'em. First with the 'hermie' now the male... oye!


 
Hehe...yeah bro, I hear ya.  No macro, but when I take down the male I will take him outside and get the best possible pics.

Just like you Zarnon, I enjoy growing from seed...just imagine the fun of knowing you made the seed yourself (or allowed seed production to happen).  In just my first harvest I already have alot of smoke...almost enough to make it to next winter, so I am not too afraid to screw up at this point.  I love to grow...and will probably continue to do so for as long as possible...it is the other half of my therapy.


----------



## Zarnon

BTW dudes,  EM has put so much work and research it really deserves to be a 'five star' grow!  I guess I already voted cuz I tried to give it again LOL.  Let's get EM that star back, vote!


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> BTW dudes, EM has put so much work and research it really deserves to be a 'five star' grow! I guess I already voted cuz I tried to give it again LOL. Let's get EM that star back, vote!


 
LOL, my style of growing is certainly not for everyone, and I would never intentionally imply it is the best method either. In simpliest terms, I try to grow outdoor...but indoor...natural. When I was first entertaining the idea of growing, and was lurking on forums reading, I learned more from a few journals out there than anywhere else. I decided I wanted my journal like that, detailed. Lemme just say that again, for anyone following along:

DETAILS...are what makes a good journal IMO. Who knows how long this log will be up here...and who knows how many have read it and are smoking tasty organic flowers right now as a result...even if they never posted or even registered. 'Doing it yourself' is the greatest, and thanks to journals like mine and many others, it is all right here...

Ok Zarnon, here is a funny one for you bro. Ever since I decided to start breeding, I can't seem to grow a male LOL. 2 jack herer hybrid beans I had both are female and just now 3 biggie small seedlings are looking to be all ladies too  LOL.

PS #2: I realize I haven't given a proper smoke report for my Grunt brothers...just been waiting till now for a decent cure. Gonna give it my best shot, never done this before, and wasn't a big smoker before my injury.

My first plant harvested was bagseed nicknamed 'Big Herm'...because of newbie confusion when it came time to sex. It could have come from high quality product...but was in a bunch I had saved so who knows. I am going to guess from reading I have done that she could be a 'kush'. Actually bushed out more than stretched in flower, a real freak. At 8 weeks and 50% amber, she hits hard and rushy...30 mins of 'get up and clean' and then out of nowhere BANG couchlock creeps in. Good smooth smoke but I'm not a big fan of the 'rushes'. Funny thing to note, whatever she is, she is the ultimate stealth strain...almost no smell whatsoever until nearly 2 weeks cure LOL. My WW stinks more in veg than she did hanging LOL. She is chillin' revegging at the moment, so we'll see if I can do better second time around. I'm not that great on identifying scents or aromas though, so please bear with me...I am trying to have a freind help with that.

My second plant was Blue Mystic, a Dr. Chronic blueberry hybrid. Fun to grow, easy to clone, good with occaisionally high temps and resistant to overfeeding.:cool2: My pheno hasn't gone blue for me yet but I don't sell so bag appeal doesn't mean much to me. Other than that, a very beautiful sticky flower...my pheno has pink pistils and monster cones. VERY fast finisher too...mine was taken at 7 weeks and 25% amber. Powerful body high, as an indica-dom should be...first time I smoked it, I was out in ten LOL. Getting a little better with cure though, should be interesting to see how it is in 6 months as I will probably be putting most of it away. One of my closest freinds really likes it though. Got several moms from clones so look for her in the perpetual SOG thingy soon  might even see if I can take her earlier next time, try and catch her all clear. I think this plant was my first revelation that I may be a sativa smoker.

Last, but certainly not least was 'Nirvana Special' (Jack Herer X Oaxacan). Now this plant is something else, giant sativa. Tough as nails, nearly impossible to overfeed, loves high temps, nutrient hog, explodes during stretch in flower, easy to clone. Be prepared to watch her grow 2"+ a day during 2nd and 3rd week...mine finished out at 7' tall. Also, don't even bother with preflowers, they will never come LOL, takes 2 weeks in flower just to pistil. Took 1/3 of her at 8 weeks and watched the rest of her pack it on till 9  . Sativas can be tricky guys, they can fake you out and make you think they are done, clones 6 weeks in right now are gonna maybe go 10 weeks, maybe longer. Her buds were lanky and long and don't look like much...but turned out really dense and lost hardly any size at all. Skunky fruity smell, not as sticky or sugared out as blue, but nice looking. Love at first toke , not as powerful as blue, but a much longer more mellowed high with no peakiness or 'rushyness' at all. Some of the smoothest smoke I have ever enjoyed, 'fine cigar like', the opposite of harsh. Very creative high, great with coffee for a 'go out and take on the world' attitude, absolutely no problem smoking this all day and getting everything done. Cannot decide if she is more fun to smoke or grow, so gonna do both LOL...much more of her and more sativas to come.  

Oh yeah, just picked up another 7 strains from an awesome freind , more details to come...


----------



## laylow6988

You must be an insparation everywhere. You came here not knowing a thing. Never grown before, studied off of what was available on forums and such. You have proved that anyone can go right into growing with no prior experience and turn out ok. I wouldn't expect a begginer to handle it as well as you have, or to be so resourceful. 

Boy would my goat love to be there to take care of your grow scraps lol.


----------



## Elephant Man

laylow6988 said:
			
		

> You must be an insparation everywhere. You came here not knowing a thing. Never grown before, studied off of what was available on forums and such. You have proved that anyone can go right into growing with no prior experience and turn out ok. I wouldn't expect a begginer to handle it as well as you have, or to be so resourceful.
> 
> Boy would my goat love to be there to take care of your grow scraps lol.


 
Thanks LayLow, I don't know man, the way my rabbit chews at his cage trying to get at the males I toss I'm guessing it would be quite a fight.  All my leaf and stems get ground and dried and fed to my worm farm, some gets mixed in with old soil to compost.

Is that your goat? I wish I could live on a farm, or even just have a small garden like my grandmother did...just have to do the best I can with my garage.  

I forgot the best part about that previous smoke report, been chatting with a huge og grower and was told about the art of mixing. If you haven't tried it...it is the bomb. Mix a few good strains, even if one is your least favorite, you wind up getting more of a varied diversity of cbd's and pretty intense high. Gonna probably become my preferred method of smoking eventually, goodbye tolerance level. 

My particular freind has a blend of like 40+ strains or something  .


----------



## Elephant Man

Been another one of those multiple update nights/mornings, if you are just signing in be sure to go back a page.  

"Houston...we have pollination..." male WW is done and 5 lucky ladies are showing dead pistils indicating impregnation. Once again, please do not try this at home, removing this male was quite a process and only time will tell if I have succeded in keeping my flower room sterile.

As promised some terrible pics of the roughed up male after a good wash and bagged transport outside, sorry freinds, still trying to find a little extra $ for a real camera. 

Just in case anyone is interested, in my personal experience doing this, the initial pollen from the early preflowers was white and maybe not as viable. I have read mixed information on how long before pistillate change, but assuming 24 hours is enough time, the white 'preflower' pollen was not doing it. It was only after a week of attempted pollinations that I noticed the pollen becoming a yellow color and observed pistil change.

:smoke1: I feel quite a bit more relaxed now he is gone, not sure yet if the seeded ladies will join the others in flower or not...but if they do...it won't be till after a few days of washing. I was hoping to make some Biggie Small seeds next, but I believe all 3 I germed are females . More seedlings stepping up to bat in a month or so...


----------



## Zarnon

em said:
			
		

> Sativas can be tricky guys, they can fake you out and make you think they are done



Totally dude.  It's a major timing thing.  When you think they're done,  give 'em another week  then after that repeat a few more times.  I am going to finish my sativa predominant ak-47 almost a month after I harvested my indica dominant ones!


----------



## Elephant Man

Zarnon said:
			
		

> Totally dude. It's a major timing thing. When you think they're done, give 'em another week then after that repeat a few more times. I am going to finish my sativa predominant ak-47 almost a month after I harvested my indica dominant ones!


 
Nice...got AK beans...guess I will have to take another run at them some day, first run I only popped one and he went male, didn't really like growing that pheno either...was a little tempermental .  Now that I have abit more experience I will tackle AK one more time one day, just cause you recommend it. 

Speaking of tempermental, I am not liking WW either...so nute shy that she has problems in my basic amended mix with no feedings.  Don't really think it is a white thing either, Blue Mystic loves my setup and keeps right up with JH "the nute hog".  She has quite an impression to make in the smoke department to hang out in my mother room, got like 10+ strains waiting for their chance.   Perhaps my WW seed will be more adapted to my environment...or they hope so anyway LOL.

I have noticed how much popularity WW gained recently and have noticed quite a few growers choosing it as their first strain (I did), probably because of TBG and his amazing pics and smoke reports.:cool2:  But I personally would have to give a fair warning to new growers on this one, especially since they are usually overly anxious to feed.

More pics...


----------



## laylow6988

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Thanks LayLow, I don't know man, the way my rabbit chews at his cage trying to get at the males I toss I'm guessing it would be quite a fight.  All my leaf and stems get ground and dried and fed to my worm farm, some gets mixed in with old soil to compost.
> 
> Is that your goat? I wish I could live on a farm, or even just have a small garden like my grandmother did...just have to do the best I can with my garage.
> 
> I forgot the best part about that previous smoke report, been chatting with a huge og grower and was told about the art of mixing. If you haven't tried it...it is the bomb. Mix a few good strains, even if one is your least favorite, you wind up getting more of a varied diversity of cbd's and pretty intense high. Gonna probably become my preferred method of smoking eventually, goodbye tolerance level.
> 
> My particular freind has a blend of like 40+ strains or something  .


 
Well the goat is at my dad's. I wish I lived on a farm to. Wouldn't that make life easier? I did have my stuff growing in my garage, but things didn't work out between me and the woman. She has a lil girl so I let her have the house. I'll buy a new one next year sometime. So now I am doing an apartment grow. Just enough to get me by so I wont have to hit the streets for my supply. 

Yeah, I am hoping that I get a male skunk to play with. But I got 7 more skunk seeds and I am sure a male must be floatin in there somewhere. 

I do plan on growing any seeds that seem to be worth my time, and pollinating a branch or two on the plants depending how things turn out.


----------



## Elephant Man

laylow6988 said:
			
		

> Well the goat is at my dad's. I wish I lived on a farm to. Wouldn't that make life easier? I did have my stuff growing in my garage, but things didn't work out between me and the woman. She has a lil girl so I let her have the house. I'll buy a new one next year sometime. So now I am doing an apartment grow. Just enough to get me by so I wont have to hit the streets for my supply.
> 
> Yeah, I am hoping that I get a male skunk to play with. But I got 7 more skunk seeds and I am sure a male must be floatin in there somewhere.
> 
> I do plan on growing any seeds that seem to be worth my time, and pollinating a branch or two on the plants depending how things turn out.


 
Sorry to hear about your lady problems bro, I wish I had a bit of advice for you but I can't do anything right but grow. It sounds like you have done your homework mang on the partial pollinations and I wish you the best of luck. But of course as you probably know, we should try to continue a strong word of caution to new growers out there...does not even take a visible amount of pollen to contaminate your entire grow...maybe even your home...for quite an extended period of time. I make it sound a little too easy I am afraid...and that is because it is...very easy to wind up with an entire crop of seed and nearly nothing to smoke. 

Some pics of new males and strains and abit of aeroclone root porn.


----------



## DLtoker

Straight up AMAZING.  Super thread.  It was a little intense at first, but now being through it I am super stoked with the knowledge.  Today was the day I was going to build a hydro set up for my mothers but I am definitely changing those plans right now.  Thanks for the contribution!

If you have time, do you have any updated soil mixes?


----------



## Elephant Man

DLtoker said:
			
		

> Straight up AMAZING. Super thread. It was a little intense at first, but now being through it I am super stoked with the knowledge. Today was the day I was going to build a hydro set up for my mothers but I am definitely changing those plans right now. Thanks for the contribution!
> 
> If you have time, do you have any updated soil mixes?


 
That makes me feel really good brother...if a few peeps learn just a little something from my journal...and it helps them achieve some quality smoke...using whatever method they choose...well that is just peachy ...and exactly why I am here.

I would love to grow hydro, but I am afraid my desert temps and low humidity make that difficult. It can be done, just not interested in the extra hardware and cost involved. I started my mothers in soil in preparation for clones in hydro (a little trick I learned from my bro Stoney), but in the process fell in love with dirt.

LOL...just this very moment got a pm for a simple mix so gonna post right up.

I wanna go ahead and say...that right in the beginning...I got very lucky. My local hydro shop is a very high volume place with salespeople that really don't do alot of pushing of products...believe it or not. I just happened to be smiley with a cute one that told me to mix Fox Farms Ocean Forest and Fox Farms Light Warrior half and half. The rest is all right here...my first grow went incredibly well and is actually a documented account of my struggle to figure out why...LOL. Tis' the mad scientist in me to analyze everything. 

What I found was a world of info on microbial farming, or bio-organics, and the rest of this journal...has been my best attempt to apply this to indoor growing of MJ.

Another long winded post folks...I am sorry...

I have to say something here that has been hounding me for quite some time. I have to agree with some recent discussions about what is 'set in stone'. My advice is...question everything...do not take anything as being 'the preffered method'...and there are boundless variables involved...IMO, far too many to even compare grows...that is why I chose to be here...no one is going to tell me my way is wrong, and I am never going to tell anyone my way is the best...or, will even work for everyone...adjustments will ALWAYS have to be made.

One more little bit and I swear I will shut up and get on with the mix. I have been doing some really weird stuff lately here in the lab that I am debating on whether to post about it, will get to that later.  But the point is, one big thing can seperate alot of growing styles. I grow for medical purposes and as crazy as it sounds, yeild is my least concern, I focus on quality.  Hear me out...I have, from one grow, more than I ever expected to have. It might surprise some of you to hear this, but in a good soilmix, MJ will grow and bloom and get you stoned with only water...LOL...don't believe me? Try it...I have. You are surely not going to get pounds, but hopefully you get my point. And about yields, I don't sell and so far have refused to go and buy a scale, because I don't really think it matters. Of course, I am curious...but I refuse to weigh it all just for curiousities sake. I personally think growing to sell only continues to criminalize MJ, but what you do with your own is out of my hands. Per forum rules, please do not discuss this with me or anyone here or anywhere on the forum.

That being said...this is the simplest completely organic mix I can think of:

Fox Farm Ocean Forest is what I base my soilmix on...I either start with it...or try and replicate it inexpensively. It was designed for canibus and has a bit high P and probably a really good Ca/Mg ratio which is important. It is the hottest mix I would ever start seedlings in...but they thrive in it...Fox Farm rules hehe.:aok: There are a few other premixed FF soils that I use...and some I would love to try. One I love is Light Warrior...there is a special thing that happens when you mix this with OF soil with ph I believe and it is light enough you won't have to add any extra perlite. OF contains microlife, in the casings and guano, but LW adds mycorrhizael spores...which is were the craziness comes in the seemingly underfeeding.

Ok folks...this might raise some flags with some...but mix the 2 above and you are done with veg...ph water, no additional feedings necessary up to 18 - 24" in one gallon. Sorry if some disagree, please do not post here if you do...unless you have tried it yourself. I am in the opinion that OF and perlite (10-30%) alone will get it done too...with a bit of manure or added casings, ferts, and lime etc. I know it will. (done it)

Ok...puff puff coffee...so you got this big beautiful 18" - 24" plant (or smaller) in one gallon and you wanna flower it? Here we go:

I like 2.5 gallon buckets, just drill some holes in the bottom. But anyway, in 2 (indica dom) - 5 (sativa dom) gallon, mix up this:

Equal parts:

Fox Farm OF
Fox Farm LW
For every gallon, add 1 tablespoon Fox Farm Peace of Mind Fruit and Flower dry ferts. 5-8-4, like 4 lbs for $9 and will last forever.

Again...believe it or not...this mix alone with clean ph water will finish her off just fine. Your yeild might not be that impressive, but she should not have any problems at all and cured flavor will be excellent! :bongin: An excellent starting point and a base for all my experiments, it is much better (especially if it is your first time) to do this and smoke out in 3-4 months than have something go wrong and be staring confused at a bunch of fried crusty plants LOL. Take the results and run with your own mix after, by all means, please share your results with us!

I know there will be those who will wanna giver' a little boost along the way HEHE , but let me go check on the girls and you guys can see about getting FF soil in your area...K? You guys got the teas from a page or 2 back....gimme a bit and I will post a few simple amendments and available liquid ferts...keeping it simple DLtoker K? 

:smoke1: Eman


----------



## DLtoker

Fantastic!  (I feel I should be in an infomercial ) Well that is so simple yet so perfect!.  I can't wait to get this started now.  FF is in my local organic garden/hydro store and they have plenty of guanos to choose from as well.  I am going to make my first mix just like that and also fool with teas.  It's also really hard to burn plants growing organically i hear so that's great becuase I sat staring at fried leaves at a point in my first hydro grow. I can't wait to hear what you're brewing next  Thanks for everything so far... Now its time to relax the mind :smoke1:!


----------



## DLtoker

Sorry one other thing... Your teas, for example the veg tea.  You say to mix with 5 gallons of water.  Could I just make it with 1 gallon to super concentrate it and then mix it with regular water when I get to my plants to water?  And tea will go bad within 24 hours if it stops bubbling I read right?


----------



## Elephant Man

Everything is looking good in grow so I got some done 'round the house and thought about this post abit...

(puff puff coffee):tokie: 

I am just gonna dive in the shallow end here and say I flower with mostly metal halide.  Probably just cause I am a bit of a kook, but also after dozens of pages on the subject I came to the conclusion that (simplest terms) high pressure sodium is for yeild, and metal halide is for flavor.  It has been shown that blues (high kelvin) promote strong cell growth, and healthy plants means alot to me.  Obviously a combination being supreme.  I may be wrong and I may correct myself one day, but I am telling you this in reality to further emphasize the amount of variables involved.  As I understand it, under HPS, she will burn through higher levels of P, Mg, and sometimes Iron.  Under MH, N and K.

One of my good freinds and mentors, posts here as HGB, once used a term I actually had never heard.  So I get to qoute him , "Read the leaves".

Not such an easy task believe me and much harder to do from pics of someone elses plant, but it is very important.  As it happens in your grow, you will eventually see probably every symptom of problems there is.  Read the grow faqs, find Hick's troubleshooter post, another post I did a while back called 'Mineral Elements'.  Read these posts over and over and look at your plants, feel the leaves...one day it will come together and you will acheive zen with your plants...heehee.:farm: 

With any amendment we have to be very careful we never add any synthetics or salts or anything that could wipe out our soillife.  In flower is where we will need them the most, so be sure your product is OMRI listed, or otherwise approved, or listed in this journal.  Private messages are welcome. 

Liquid ferts:

Ok, anyone just signing in to this thread should definately check out the teas a few pages back.  They are the most inexpensive liquid fert posted here.  I am currently giving these about once a week, always within 24-48hrs of being brewed.  In a simpler mix than mine, you could try these teas at every feeding (watering), especially for hungry sativas, but like I said before, keep it simple your first go round and make small changes later...see what happens.  Very important to water slowly and in small amounts spaced apart.  Make a fun thing of it, little water, roll a joint, little more water, do a few bongloads etc.  In organics, runoff every watering is not necessary, but you should until you get the hang of getting your soil saturated.  Just as posted way back in this thread, dry spell is important, and your microlife is going to really protect them from drought stress.

I have seen some peeps trying to use the ferts from the teas individually and without brewing.  I can tell you this, I will not give Alaskan fish ferts without brewing first and may be eventually phasing it out completely.  It has some acid in it and I believe some insoluable nitrates that need to be brewed to be more freindly to our beasties (microlife).  The FF POM in our tea is gonna bring the ph to perfect after brewing.  If you can't make the teas or don't want to, use something like this:

In a soil like we have, chock full of nutes, FF Big Bloom will fatten the ladies up nicely.  Checkout TBG's grow journal for amazing results in another brand of soilmix.

I like Biobizz nutes too, the 'fish mix' is a complete veg fertilizer in itself.  For a little treat here and there.

I hear very good things about Earth Juice products, I haven't got around to trying them yet, but I will.

I do not know about the Advanced Nute line, it probably is organic, but I can't afford it...LOL.

I love Botanicare products but unfortunately as I understand it, Pure Blend Pro Bloom is not organic...as far as I know, the rest of their line is.

As far as ratios, in the basic mix above, the feeding schedules on these products websites will work fine...but if you want to save a few bucks...add a few soil amendments, and play with your liquid feeding schedule abit. 

Lemme get some eats and I'll be right back with our dry amendments.


----------



## Elephant Man

DLtoker said:
			
		

> Sorry one other thing... Your teas, for example the veg tea. You say to mix with 5 gallons of water. Could I just make it with 1 gallon to super concentrate it and then mix it with regular water when I get to my plants to water? And tea will go bad within 24 hours if it stops bubbling I read right?


 
Yeah man, your catching on quick.  Lots of peeps I know dilute their teas but actually I just give them a good watering and the tea on top after.  From what I understand our beasties are really sensitive to drastic ph changes so I try not to mess with the teas at all after brewing.  Yes on the second question too brosky, the constant aeration and mycos in the POM and guanos gets a super population of aerobic beasties going that can overcome pathogens and bad beasties of the anaerobic variety...that will show up after extended brewing times without maintenance of the good beasties.


----------



## Elephant Man

Coffee is on, couple doobies rolled and away we go::ccc: 

Dry Amendments:

First off, everyone get themselves a box of Diatomaceous Earth.  I have never needed mine, but IMO, it should be handy for any potential pests.

If you are following the multiple transplant process I described earlier in this journal, you can start adding these amendments after your first transplant from your 4" or solo cup.  Clones can take these from rooting.

Earthworm Casings

Uggggh...stoned here...forget who said it...but "there is not one inch of fertile land on earth that has not passed through the belly of an earthworm."
By far the single most important dry amendment you can use.  Far to many benefits and info to cover here, feeds for 1-3 months, mix at 25% of total soilmix or topdress.  Fun little known fact I have read that you can grow in just casings and perlite, bit expensive without your own worm farm, I promise to test it one day for you guys and gals though.

Guanos and Manures

Go to the grower's resource section and read "The Scoop on ****" made by the gurus the three little birdies.  Steer, horse, and similar manures, I typically put about a heaping tablespoon or 2 per gallon, mixed in bottom inch or 2 of soil...or even just sprinkled on the bottom of the pot.  Same with guanos...except half that strength or less...I topdress with guanos too, but not manures.  Chicken and rabbit and any other hotter manures should be used the same, but like only 1 teaspoon per gal.

Kelp Meal (0.5-1-2)

Powerful stuff.  Full of macros and traces, vitamins, aminos, and good voodoo stuff like cytokins.  1 teaspoon per gallon.  I won't grow without it...LOL.  Get this or a liquid kelp or seaweed extract like Botanicare Liquid Karma.

Dry soluable Molasses (1-0-3)

Again...grower's resources...three little birds article.  Molasses is a carbo loader, big K source, and powerful activator for our beasties.  Also, the only thing I ever give right up to harvest.  1 teaspoon per gallon.

Shrimp, Crab, or Fish Meal

Ocean forest...this one is another biggie.  Typically the meals are 3-4 N and 4-6 P...one tablespoon per gallon.  Just a special little tip here, I have a favorite...it is made by 'Down to Earth'.  Just in case you have trouble finding any of this stuff...or just want to see what it looks like...go to this site: http://www.groworganic.com/item_F020_FishBoneMeal31606Lb.html
Anytime you use something like the 'fish bone meal' in the link, see how much higher the P is?  One teaspoon per gallon for the fish bone meal.

Rock Minerals

Gonna wanna pick up a supplement for our micros, can use epsoms plus, rock phosphate, azomite, cal/mag.  One tsp per gal.  Look for a 2 to 1 ratio of Ca to Mg.

Alfalfa Meal

Pretty sure I did a post on alfalfa in this journal, girls love it here, one teaspoon per gallon.  Can also use cottonseed meal or soybean meal, but you gonna be missing out on some beneficial beasties in the alfalfa meal so try hard to get that.  I add it to my teas too.  Stay away from corn gluten meal, it may contain growth inhibiters.

Dolomitic and Oyster Shell Lime

Again...won't grow without it.  This is gonna help lock our nutrient packed possibly slightly acidic soil in at a reasonable ph.  Here, we have to do a little experimenting in regards to our own personal water source, but luckily MJ is such a Ca/Mg hog we got some leeway.  One to two tablespoons per gallon on the dolomitic, or half that with up to a 4 tablespoons of oyster shell.

Jersey Greensand (0-0-3)

Really long term slow release K source...this one will feed several crops in recycled soil.  One tablespoon per gallon.

Beneficial Bacteria and Mycorrhizael Innoculants

We get these from lots of our ingrediants but since we are talking about boosting, I gotta say the most powerful of these is either Biozome, GH Subculture, or some AN products I haven't used...I think tarantula and scorpion juice.  Botanicare Hydrogaurd is another biggie for me, like a vaccination for your girls and superb for cloning.  Just a pinch in second and final transplant is all that is needed with these, can be sprinkled right on roots.

A word on macros

You can play with these ratios abit yourself, the macros for any of these can most likely be found in this journal...if not on yor packaging.  I run about 5-5-4 in veg, and 4-8-8 in flower, but since our microlife is large and in charge of intake, we have quite abit of leeway.  I get the best results from actually using the smallest amounts from as many different sources as possible...our beasties will handle the rest.

I hope I remembered most of the dry amendments, may have to update later.  Couple of these items can be subbed out with stuff like bone and blood meal, macros are pretty high...no more than 1 teaspoon per gallon on the bone, half that for the blood.  I personally quit using either of these though...just a bit of uncertainty in the manufacturing process irks me. I got one more post (I hope) on foliars...one of the most often overlooked happiness booster and fast acting fixers IMO.

:smoke1: Eman


----------



## newgreenthumb

Thanks again for the headbangin' info.  I just germed three bagseed and they are going to be 100% microbeastie grows.  :headbang:


----------



## DLtoker

Eman You, my friend, are the ****!  I can't believe you have just started growing a few months ago...  I read that right, right?  Thanks so much!


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> One of my good freinds and mentors, posts here as HGB, once used a term I actually had never heard.  So I get to qoute him , "Read the leaves".
> 
> Not such an easy task believe me and much harder to do from pics of someone elses plant, but it is very important.



glad ya picked up on that bro    very important to be able to leaf read for sure...

this plant can be very easy to grow or very hard just depends on the grower...

tons of great info in your GJ and other post brutha..... thx for share'n  

:48: 


grow on


----------



## Elephant Man

Thanks guys :aok:

Gonna be following your grows for sure NGT brother and anything I can do to help you let me know, K? 

Yeah DL mang, think I started with MJ in October...basically my sign up date.  I just unfortunately have the luxury of being stuck here at home most of the time due to injuries so I do a lot of reading and chatting with fellow growers.  I will always be grateful for Marp giving us this site to share and learn and I help out however possible.

HGB my brother, thanks so much for stopping by:48: .  You have always encouraged me to continue to approach this with an open mind, and I can't thank you enough for reminding me over and over that these are just weeds.   Here's to many more beautiful flowers my freind! :bongin:


----------



## Elephant Man

Ok guys and girls, after a chat with an incredibly knowledgeable freind named 'Fing 57", a while ago, and tons of reading...I have decided to drift away on an entirely different path from the norm.  Basically, this is due to 5 reasons:

1. My love of smoking equatorial Sativas
2. My love of growing equatorial Sativas
3. Economics
4. My love of breeding and growing from seed
5. My desert location and average temps/low RH

I am just a tad busy today so let me get back to you on the particulars, but this DJ. Short article sums it up nicely: 

How to bring out the Sativa and breed the ultimate buds.

To understand the principles behind the breeding of cannabis you first need to be familiar with some basic terms related to genetics. "Genotype" is the genetic and chromosomal make-up of any given individual  it is the genetic code. "Phenotype" is the expression of body type, structure, and appearance of individuals; it results from the interaction between genotype and environment.

Specific environmental conditions are often required for certain phenotypic expressions from a given genotype. If the available nutrients, hours of sunlight, or other conditions are not available then the development of the plant or animal will be altered. These conditions are referred to as "environmental triggers."

Two individuals with the same genotype can have greatly different phenotypes if grown in different environments.

Indoor vs outdoor

In terms of growing and breeding cannabis, there is a distinct difference between indoor and outdoor grow environments. No matter where on the planet one is, the indoor environment is usually far more limited when compared to the spectrum of conditions existing outdoors.

When compared to the wide variety of conditions available outdoors, the indoor environment may be seen as relatively bland and generic. The greenhouse environment, especially when fortified with electric light, is perhaps the closest thing available to a happy marriage between the two.

Three subspecies

It is useful to agree, at least in theory, that there are three separate subspecies of the genus Cannabis  Sativa, Indica and Ruderalis.

Cannabis Sativa is the equatorial variety found primarily around 30 degrees latitude North or South. Sativa generally grow tall, from seven to thirty feet, have many long branches, narrower leaflets, and mature slowly. 

Cannabis Indica varieties generally inhabit the areas between 30-50 degrees North or South latitude. Indica are generally much shorter than Sativa, only about three to five feet tall. They have fewer and shorter branches than Sativa, the longer of which are lower on the plant, with much wider leaflets. They also mature earlier and more rapidly than Sativa.

Cannabis Ruderalis grow naturally primarily past 50 degrees north latitude (the Siberian steppes). Ruderalis are the shortest, least bushy, and fastest maturing of the three.

The end of the sweet spots

Prior to the late 1970's, virtually all commercially available cannabis products came from the great outdoors. Many of these varieties had been grown in their particular region since antiquity  not since the advent of sailing had a greater diversification and distribution of the herb occurred.

Most cannabis available was also very well acclimated to its particular region of origin. Certain places tended to produce very unique and desirable types of herb that were renowned to each region. I like to refer to these high-quality cannabis producing areas as "sweet spots." The products coming out of these sweet spots during this era were among the finest herbs ever available.

A series of phenomena occurred in the late 1970's and early 80's that has since revolutionized the cannabis industry. This series included the triad of sinsemilla, High Intensity Discharge (HID) lighting, and the introduction of Indica genetics, coupled with draconian herb laws that drove the industry far underground. Never before in human history was so much genetic diversity of cannabis grown in such generic, indoor conditions. The results of this phenomenon have wreaked havoc on the cannabis gene pool.

The road to blandness

As Indica, sinsemilla and HID lighting became predominant, it became apparent that Sativa varieties were very difficult to coax commercial amounts of sinsemilla herb from indoors. The fast maturing, dense bud structure of the easy-to-grow Indica soon dominated the indoor grow scene.

Another factor contributing to the desirability of the indoor Indica was its truebreeding "dioecious" nature, meaning that individual plants tend to be male or female only, but not both. In contrast, many Sativa strains show hermaphroditic tendencies indoors, with male and female flowers on the same plant. (It is my opinion that wild Sativa strains of cannabis are primarily truebreeding hermaphroditic varieties.)

As outdoor production diminished due to intolerant laws and the drug war, indoor production of Indica phenotypes became the staple of the commercial indoor grower. The road to generic blandness had begun.

Although some Sativa/Indica crosses matched some of the Sativa flavor and head high with the Indica bud structure, this desirability would only last for a few generations of breeding. Unless a person is breeding for a very specific trait, crosses seven generations and beyond the original P1 Indica/Sativa cross lose much of their original charm and desirability. Cloning, however, helps to extend a given plant's potential.

Ruderalis: myth and misnomer

As indoor growers attempted to improve their genetic lines via breeding, another interesting phenomenon occurred: Ruderalis. Although there is a wild variety identified as Ruderalis in Russia ("Ruderalis" is supposedly Russian for "by the side of the road") that grows very short and matures very fast, I seriously doubt the rumor that someone actually went to Russia to collect seeds of this variety sometime in the past. Or, if someone actually did go all the way to Russia to find, collect and smuggle "rudy" seeds, I do feel sorry for their waste of time. They could have gotten the same worthless thing from Minnesota, Saskatchewan or Manitoba with much less hassle.

The North American Ruderalis probably originated as follows: After the Indica varieties arrived in the US and became incorporated into the gene pool, many breeders began to cross the earliest maturing individuals with each other in hopes of shortening the maturation cycle.

It would only take a few generations for the ugly Rudy phenotypes to begin expressing themselves. By ugly, I am referring to a strong lack of potency and/or desirability. I know, I was once guilty of the practice myself. It did not take me long to realize that this was a huge mistake in regard to the quality and potency of the future generations' finished product, and all subsequent breeding along this line was ceased.

Many of these manipulated rudies were released on the open market between 1981 and 1986. It was shortly after this period that the grow journals of the era (Sinsemilla Tips and High Times) ran articles about the possibility of a new wonder variety for indoor grows: fast blooming Ruderalis. Rumor had spread to myth and misnomer. Therefore, it may be more appropriate to say that the Ruderalis phenotype was coaxed from Indica genetics, via the indoor breeding environment.

The same applies to many of the Indica dominant varieties available today. Breeders selecting for early, fast flowering or fast growth often miss out on some of the finer and more subtle characteristics available from crossing certain genotypes. My advice to breeders is to wait until the finished product is suitably tested before coming to any conclusions regarding desirable candidates for future breeding consideration.

Phenotypic expression

The malleability of phenotypic expression among the Sativa/Indica crosses must also be noted. The variability of phenotypic expression among the f2 generation of a truly polar (pure Sativa/pure Indica) P1 cross is quite phenomenal. The second generation f2 crosses will exhibit the full spectrum of possibilities between the original parents  extreme Indica, extreme Sativa, and everything in between.

However, regardless of any particular phenotype selected from among this given f2 cross, future generations may drift radically. Depending on the presence (or lack) of a number of environmental triggers, an f2 Indica phenotype may be coaxed more toward Sativa traits, or an f2 Sativa phenotype may be coaxed more toward Indica expression. The key is environmental conditions.

This is what distinguishes the truebreeding, ancient acclimated, region of origin varieties  especially the tropical and equatorial Sativa  from the crosses that have happened since. The ancient specimens have a much narrower genotype range, and therefore a more specific phenotype than their contemporary crosses despite environmental conditions. It is up to future adventurers to provide the best possible environmental considerations, along with the best possible genetic considerations, in order to resurrect the legendary happy flowers of yore.


----------



## Elephant Man

Inducing Sativa

After many years of first-hand experience breeding herb indoors as well as outdoors, I am of the opinion that the two most influential factors involving phenotypic variation and expression among current indoor herb breeding projects are the photoperiod (hours of light per day) and the angle of light in relationship to the growing plant.

Specifically, I find the single most powerful influence to the Indica dominant phenotype is the traditional 18/6 veggie cycle and 12/12 flowering cycle. The 18/6 veggie and 12/12 flower cycle is an attempt, however poor, to mimic the Indica-producing photoperiod. It is my belief that this light cycle strongly influences for Indica phenotypic expression.

Sativa phenotype characteristics will manifest under a more equatorial photoperiod, closer to a 13/11 veggie cycle and an 11/13 flower cycle. This is the light timing range to use to elicit more Sativa dominant expression from your plants.

As for the exact photoperiod formula that I incorporate into my growing/breeding regime, this will presently remain a trade secret. My advice is to experiment with different photoperiods, keep good notes and pay attention. Avoid the 18/6 and 12/12 photoperiods, while tweaking the times a bit differently with each breeding cycle until more desirable results in the finished product and their offspring are noted. Here's a hint: work in half-hour increments or a little less, and good luck!


Indica and Sativa characteristics. 
Angle of Light

Angle of light simply refers to the physical angle of light source the plant is dependent upon for growth. Perhaps the greatest difference between indoor and outdoor environments has to do with the angle of light received by the plant. This is also one of the greatest seasonal differences between the Sativa and Indica producing regions.

Outdoors, the main light source is the Sun, with minor influence coming from nearby reflective surfaces. As a plant grows taller and broader outdoors, that angle of light from the sun changes very little in relationship to the growing plant.

Seasonal changes in angle of light increase the further away from the equator one gets. At the equator there is the least amount of seasonal change in angle of light, only about 20°, whereas at the 45th parallel that change is as great as 45°. At the 45th latitude, the Summer Sun is high in the sky while during early Spring and late Fall the sunlight comes from much lower in the sky. The farther one goes from the equator, the greater the difference in seasonal changes regarding angle of light.

Indoors, the lights typically range from a few inches to several feet from the plant. As the plant grows taller, its physical relationship to the bulb's angle of light changes considerably. Most indoor grow rooms have relatively low ceilings, therefore, raising the bulbs may maintain a similar angle of light early on, but eventually the angle changes. The same differences may be noted among plants directly below the bulb and the plants off to the side of the room farther away from the bulb.

Circular light shuttles tend to emulate the arctic summer and create a confusing signal completely unknown to the equatorial Sativa. Straight-track overhead light shuttles are more conducive to inducing the Sativa phenotype.


Blueberry x Durban Poison 
Aromatics and flavors

Many indoor growers try to get their budding plants as close to the light source as possible. Though this may increase bulk production of both bud and trichome, I find that this practice tends to destroy many of the finer aromatic qualities of the herb.

Buds too close to the light tend to express nothing beyond the lower lemon/lime aromas of the fruity spectrum. Sometimes the aroma is no better than a strong chemical/astringent odor and flavor, especially those under High Pressure Sodium light systems. The finer berry flavors tend to favor more distance from the bulb, and will manifest more strongly under High Ultraviolet Metal Halide light systems, especially during the latter stages of flowering.

Something akin to a gymnasium building with high ceilings and super 5000W lights hung far from the growing plants, set at a Sativa-tweaked photoperiod, would be the ultimate indoor grow-op to coax Sativa phenotypes.

Sweet spot fantasy

Nothing will ever rival the great outdoor sweet spots for quality cannabis production. Hopefully, someday, somewhere, someone will be daring and lucky enough to get away with re-establishing some of the great genetic lines in their specific region of origin sweet spots.

Equatorial Sativa varieties are of interest for quality herb production (Thailand, Oaxaca, Colombia, Central Africa, etc.) as the Indica zones are more renowned for hashish production. Parts of Nepal tend to produce both excellent hashish and fine Sativa buds, with some plants reportedly living longer than two years!

I hope that I am able to live long enough to once again experience the joy associated with the fine herbal products from the great regional sweet spots of near ancient lore. It has been a long time and I am looking forward to the day.

Eman:ccc:


----------



## Elephant Man

And for those who don't want to read all that.

:ccc:


----------



## DLtoker

What's happenin Eman?  That's interesting.  I wonder if using fluorescents for veg and flow would help the aroma/taste at all.  My thought is the light isn't as intense and more spread out so leading to a higher quality outdoorsy???  I am in the process of selling my MH and HPS right now and am also buying 3 more 4' 4 bulb t5s.  Once my mother has enough cuttings available then I'll begin. 


Oh and since you're the scientist could you tell me if that makes sense even?


----------



## Elephant Man

DLtoker said:
			
		

> What's happenin Eman? That's interesting. I wonder if using fluorescents for veg and flow would help the aroma/taste at all. My thought is the light isn't as intense and more spread out so leading to a higher quality outdoorsy??? I am in the process of selling my MH and HPS right now and am also buying 3 more 4' 4 bulb t5s. Once my mother has enough cuttings available then I'll begin.
> 
> 
> Oh and since you're the scientist could you tell me if that makes sense even?


 
I dunno mang...there are as many HPS vs. MH threads as there are HID vs. flouros threads. I just kinda based some opinions from them but to tell the truth I use all 3 in flower. Just more blue than anything else.

Gonna probably be some flouro stuff coming up cause my bro says I can't grow in a shoebox.:huh: 

Finally found a use for this crappy cam, now if only I could focus between 3 ft. and 3mm. MMmmmm trichomes from your freind the Elephant Man.:ccc:


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## Elephant Man

Honestly just like documenting date for the cure.  But I thought a pic might prove a point.  'Big Herm' the bagseed was ok in the smoke department...creeper is fun...but since I got so many others to try I decided to phase her out after reveg.  Had these 2 rooted clones so I put them in a bucket with some **** and a tablespoon of POM or 2...just tossed them in flower room.  Watered them (no nutes) cause I didn't care much and didn't really even have them under the light.  2 months later this is what I got dried...after a good few month cure you can bet I will enjoy smoking this.  All because I chose no to overfeed and smoke my plants before harvest.

:ccc:


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## Elephant Man

HGB's fault...and yes there will be a plant in this thing. :huh:

Found this cooler on the side of the road.

9x7x9"high  42 watt cfl  cpu intake and exhaust  3 degrees over room temp

Just pushing the boundaries having a good time growing and sharing.  

:ccc:


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## oleflowerman

Incredible thread.  But who wrote this????.... After many years of first-hand experience breeding herb indoors as well as outdoors, I am of the opinion that the two most influential factors involving phenotypic variation and expression among current indoor herb breeding projects are the photoperiod (hours of light per day) and the angle of light in relationship to the growing plant.....
I'd like to get the book ?


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## Elephant Man

oleflowerman said:
			
		

> Incredible thread. But who wrote this????.... After many years of first-hand experience breeding herb indoors as well as outdoors, I am of the opinion that the two most influential factors involving phenotypic variation and expression among current indoor herb breeding projects are the photoperiod (hours of light per day) and the angle of light in relationship to the growing plant.....
> I'd like to get the book ?


 
Go back a page.


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## Elephant Man

Ok...decided to quit beating around the bush and come out with it. This is the new perpetual grow. One room 4x9 2kw+ on 11/13 light cycle, and a male in the window. 

No veg...no cloning...no moms...flowering directly from seed.:huh: 

Little known method out there guys, mostly designed for sativas. Truth is, MJ will veg until mature...simple nature, regardless of light cycles. This method is very popular with breeders, where yeild is not as important, and I learned it from a Dutch coffee shop grower (seek out atmosphere1). Worth pointing out, this method works best with sativas, but many strains do well also. As I pointed out before, I focus on sativas, and quality and fun outweigh yeild in my case. Interesting also, In my soon to be documented search for the true breeding sativas, I have already discovered what will be the ultimate grail if I can find it. It comes from a village in Vietnam called Manal, and it is possibly the largest and most psychoactive sativa there is. One breeder has stated it is extremely difficult to grow indoor and should only be done in flower from seed. Before any of you go looking for it though, let me warn you. It is not for the hobby grower and can take 15 weeks to finish. Outdoor it can grow 30 feet. It is very powerful and without a good cure, could possibly make one sick. muwahahaha

Another very good reason for me to do this is because low latitude sativas are very heat and low RH tolerant...and clones are not. In the summer months when I need to shut down I will just make seed and harvest...no moms to deal with. I can easily keep temps optimal with cooler night temp flower room, than dealing with veg too. No lights on here during the day at all. 
Should be really fun to see me try to tame this beast once I find it.:chuck: In the meantime, I will be running along with my Jack Herer hybrid (male pollinating now), Swazi Safari, and Cherry Malawi for the sativas. Already got some hybrids in there too...more soon

Few pics

Eman:ccc:


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## frankpeterson

Hey,

Are you going straight to flower with those? With no vedge?


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## oleflowerman

by whom >>>/????

So EMAN i went back a page and this is all I found......

"I am just a tad busy today so let me get back to you on the particulars, but this DJ. Short article sums it up nicely:.........."

We gotta give credit where credit is do.

An oldfriend of mine used to say " Give the credit to whom it is do....TWICE.  Then call it your own


----------



## Hick

> So EMAN i went back a page and this is all I found......
> 
> "I am just a tad busy today so let me get back to you on the particulars, but this DJ. Short article sums it up nicely



http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5837
more "dj" links near the bottom..


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## Elephant Man

Thanks Hick!  So happy to see you finally made it...been saving the recliner and this blended doobie just for you.:smoke1:

Frank:  Yes, brother all sativas/hybrids will be grown from seed...most indicas will be tested using this method.  If you would like more info, I can pm you a link to Atmosphere1's grow journal....maybe you can read Dutch.

Opencountry: Dude, growing without adequate filtration is stupid, regardless of where your power meter is.

Sorry guys I've been so busy but here are some pics to try and make up for it...

Eman:ccc:


----------



## Elephant Man

Sorry guys, been super duper busy lately, every 6 weeks or so I guess I have to take a 'time out' from internet to get caught up in real life. Still got private messages to get to, please bear with me.

Grow has pretty much been turned upside down, yes peeps, this journal is getting flipped again. It seems breeding is becoming top priority (most fun).

I love building soilmixes, but to be honest with you, I cannot make a 'universal' mix for the masses. Setup conditions and strains bring in soooo many variables it really is tough to comprehend. My conditions have fine tuned my mix, and lighting, humidity, and different strains will always require fixes. I will continue to post organic mixes, amendments and additives I am favorable to, and try to help peeps in sick plants and such...but basically, you guys and gals all have to understand that adapting my mixes/feedings to my environment may take many more grows. Big props to companies like Fox Farms and GH that produce very good results in nearly any environment.

On the organic front...I have good and bad news. The truth is, if you research enough, you will find possibilities that nearly everything is 'semi-organic'. This was interesting at first, but now it has become annoying. It seems someone has finally posted evidence that some of my favorite items may not be 100% organic. I cannot afford to toss products and restock to keep up with technology, and organic items do have shelf lives, so I have mixed things up a bit now. Which brings me to the good news...in a way I choose to fall back on some early observations, and did some testing:

Let me say first, that regardless of what ORMI says, some listed items are not 100% organic, maybe 99%...so based on that, I am basing my judgements on my microlife. Once you get fermenting, you will see what you can add to teas without killing off your beasties. Whether or not Botanicare products are 100% organic or not I do not know, but I can tell you my beasties love them, so until I run out, I will mix them with my amendments and other liquid products.  I also have to say that those on tap water are not necessarily forced to use RO.

Uggghhh...so much to update...you still with me?:smoke1:

I have really focused on breeding now and more research uncovered much info from one of my mentors: REv. Basically, I have to keep males so veg is back. The '11/13 from seed' is still in progress, but I quickly learned that pollinating seedlings in flower from birth can be a bit of work, so moms, clones and are back too. Every strain I grow will still be tested in flower from seed though, my first few will be picture worthy soon. 

Coocoo for coco  

Yes I finally broke into that bail I got on a 'half-priced take home and try' dealio and I am in love. Coco is organic, it is coconut production waste and inexpensive. It is easy to ship as it comes compressed. I might throw up one of those 'copy and paste' posts on coco coir, but for now lemme just say that if you have not tried it, buy a $2 brick at your hydro shop and play with it. Upcoming pics should speak for themselves. Right now I am using PBP and teas and soon amendments in 100% coir, but when I run out of PBP, I may switch to Metanaturals. My test substrate (coco) is basically inert (no amendments) because it is easiest being perpetual, but I will be adding things and phasing out liquid ferts soon enough. Moms and dads are in soil.

Well, as usual that post took about an hour, seems the higher my post count gets the longer it takes to post. I still remember when I put up several posts an hour back in the day LOL. Truly amazing how experience can change things.

Be back soon with more crappy pics.

Eman:ccc:


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## rami

crazy thread E MAN...i learned lots of new things...propz..keep it up


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## Elephant Man

rami said:
			
		

> crazy thread E MAN...i learned lots of new things...propz..keep it up


 
Thanks Rami brother, mucho mojo back at ya :ccc:

Some pics of a new star in the lineup.  She comes from a great guy who has helped me alot, her name is 'DF99 x 'clips'' and this is my favorite pheno.  I know her lineage, I forget, but there is some G13 in there too.  Dunno if I am getting better or if she really likes me, but she is really beautiful.  Finally got my K right and her stem is huge.  Definately a hardy strain here.

I usually let them stretch out just abit because I like packing them in and this way she gets a little more breeze under her wings, this is a perfect example of internode distance I like.

Got her in a little clear tupperware container with no drainage just 'cause I can I guess. 

Eman:ccc:


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## DLtoker

Eman, I can't wait to buy your book!  You are an MJ mastermind!


----------



## Elephant Man

DLtoker said:
			
		

> Eman, I can't wait to buy your book! You are an MJ mastermind!


 
Honestly bro, just a guy and some weeds. I would love to write a book...ummm...this journal is close I guess, and thanks to MarPassion it is here for all to enjoy absolutely free...for those who don't know, he pays for this site from his own pocket.:clap: 

I wish I could do something better with my research and energy, such as work towards the legalization of MJ, but honestly bro...I am not that courageous or intelligent. 

Anyway, veg has been converted to a big 'sink'. This table can be used NFT style, flooded with a threaded riser, or drip...or just handwatered which is what I am still doing. Nearby water connections and drain from laundry.

Eman:ccc:


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Eman whats going on my friend.   Everytime i stop in your journal you have 50 other things going on.   This has to be one of the best if not the best documented grow journal ever put on MP IMHO. :aok: *


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## Mr.Wakenbake

you got a nice grow going here... nice healthy plants. 

There are some good yeilding sativa's out there, you just have to look hard for them. Maybe you should check out mandala seeds.. They have some nice pure sativa's that may suit you that also has nice yeilds.

krystallica is one that comes to mind.. Satori is also a Sativa dom plant.. the krystallica is a pure sativa i believe.


----------



## Elephant Man

TBG: My brothers, you guys have been with me since day one, really inspiring me to keep this thing going.  I can't thank you enough...we all go through times were we wonder why even post...and all I have to do is remember my Grunt brothers are waiting for more pics...here you go my freind.:smoke1:

Mr. Wakenbake: Mmmmmm....Jack Herer and coffee, luv waking and baking to bro', love the handle.  I know you are new here, but I can tell by your initial posts you are not new to growing.  Pull up a chair my freind and please spark this doobie for us.   Feel free to hang out as long as you like and add whatever you desire...except synthetics of course...yuk yuk...ok, I know, I'm not funny.  Mandala?  Heck, lets go bro LOL.  Thanks for the tip and yeah, my bro and I been considering tag teaming that place and getting them all.  Lemme know if you see Manal anywhere, pretty please?

Random pics of Blue Mystics under flouros, a seeded blue and a few seeded White widows, Herer clones, my soilbed clone tray thingy, and some dads , Godbud x Afghan Dream, Swazi Safari, and Cherry Malawi.


----------



## DLtoker

Great stuff Eman.  How are the buds maturing under the fluorescents for you?  And I see you flowered from clone in one pic correct?  And how is THAT going for you?  Per usual, looks fantastic.

ADDITIONALLY, I am ÜBER jealous of how large your play ground is.  I would be in there all day if I didn't have anything else on my tray.


----------



## KADE

I'm still around too mang... i'm just pretty quiet... got some good lookin ladies.


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## HerbiJesus

hi there E Man, just read through your journal, what can i say..... That was truly amazing. Respect!!!!


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## Elephant Man

DLtoker said:
			
		

> Great stuff Eman. How are the buds maturing under the fluorescents for you? And I see you flowered from clone in one pic correct? And how is THAT going for you? Per usual, looks fantastic.
> 
> ADDITIONALLY, I am ÜBER jealous of how large your play ground is. I would be in there all day if I didn't have anything else on my tray.


 
D Low my brother, I like experimenting with flourescents, for 2 reasons. First is that summer heat here is incredible, we will see what happens with that. Second reason is just because I can I guess, rebel type stubborn fool that questions authority...otherwise I probably would have never tried weed. 

The plants in the pics under flouros are actually Blue Mystic, I think I said they were WW. Sorry, I haven't moved those buckets since I put them there, I water with a wand, couldn't see the label. As soon as I saw my pheno's pink pistils, I knew it was her. Blue Mystic is a bit freaky with her blueberry lineage. I think this one has a tinge of ruderalis or highland/high latitude in there, auto-flowering characteristics...once mature, she never stops alternating, and I have had clones continue flowering. Funny though, she clones easily. Anyway, long story short, if you know you are weak on lighting, you might want to look for a highland, northern latitude type strain. Mountain and northern, extreme southern strains in many cases will be acclimated to less lighting and alot of cloudy days. 

Blue Mystic is under my overdriven flouros...but to be honest, I have a few clones under an 80w shoplight in flower off to the side, just for fun. I am using the fixture to SCROG them. We'll see how it goes but so far, it looks like it is just going to take longer...they are healthy.

Clones....me personally I hate them. Some 'crazy hippy grower' talk here, but a flower room full of clones actually depressed me. They look like a bunch of faceless nazis staring back at me...all perfectly identical...some of you might understand. I will tell you it makes alot of weed fast...so much so that I can goof off plenty from now on. But I don't think we will see another 'clone run' like I had planned, just tossed a bunch of little SOG style ones that were 4 weeks in to add seedlings. 

However, I do find maturity has alot to do with seeding, so for right now I am using clones from moms and dads for breeding.

KADE: Hope you are enjoying that stellar last harvest buddy.:ccc:  Smoke up cause I wanna see seedlings going soon...heehee. 

Herbijesus: Glad I could entertain and maybe get some brain juices flowing bro, pretty much can't get enough of that myself.  Make yourself at home.:smoke1:

Eman:ccc:


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## Elephant Man

Ok guys and gals I apologize...I have been posting away and helping but have let my journal slack.

Just wanted to let peeps know that I have been wandering through cyberspace in the continued search of knowledge and have just run into another new bunch.  I have invited them here to see what's going on so everyone please look their Sunday best.

Just kidding... 

Anyway if they make it I hope they enjoyed my journal and hope that they might make it an extended visit.  Some really great peeps here and you might make some freinds.:smoke1:

Back later with pics or text or something....

Eman:ccc:


----------



## Elephant Man

Trying to find a balance here:

1) My desire to teach and learn

2) Potential Experience

If that doesn't make sense, lemme explain.

I have been posting and reading alot lately, not just here, but all over the net.  I used to do a lot of lurking, but at some point, you have to ask questions.

In the meantime...lemme see:

1) lost few germs
2) almost another clone identity conundrum
3) 4 males now...what a mess...wouldn't be a problem at all if I could pick just one
4) probably 4 ounces of moldy buds 
5) heat is here hardcore already...still haven't got rid of veg
6) can't seem to choose between micro and soilbed
7) JH x O single clone hermed axially, not a big deal...all my seeded are done
8) too many mentors at this very moment...I have info coming out of my ears
9) I know I have to pick one male but I can't...not for quite a while
10) I love my Oaxacan cross, but she goes on the back burner till I can better understand her genetics.
11) I would be willing to grow hermies for 'highland thai':huh:  Some peeps might know what I mean

It has become apparent that breeding is where I am going...well, for my buddy Hick, I will refer to it as 'seedmaking' .  Unless someone convinces me I am on the right track. 

There are only so many landrace genetics left...if any.  Some may never know what it is like to grow or smoke a landrace sativa.  I have an idea.

Some may never want to...I am sure the idea of an equatorial sativa taking twice as long to finish as a blueberry strain makes some ask why.  Well...there are even more negatives than that.  Pure sativas can be lanky monsters.  They can stretch over 300% in flower, and have leafy spear-shaped buds, many times not even connecting from node to node.  They can lack many of the colors of the hybrid species, and many appear to have no trichs or 'sugar' at all.  Due to having less 'bracts' too, when cured, often brown or turn red, gold altogether.  Not usually a bag appeal choice.  Also, true landrace sativas are prone to hermaphrodism, but the term itself has to be fully understood to begin to understand breeding.  Some may not preflower until past 2 months old, given the fact that they could be 4 feet tall by then, certain steps must be taken by the indoor grower.  It can also be quite scary to smoke without a long cure.  I have found nearly all these traits in my Oaxacan cross.

So why grow it?

Well...final opinions remain to be seen.  But the smoke from this lady really is something special.  I hardly smoke anything else, and I have several other hybrids long cured and sitting.  This smoke is smooth...both in taste and flavor, unlike any other weed I have smoked to date.  The high is very smooth too...it rolls up to a peak and literally never comes down.  No rushes, no dumbfoundness, no body numbing...unless you over do it.  Instead I find it a very psychoactive mind expanding smoke...makes me want to build stuff...or type out a long post.  I can honestly, smoke this all day and not get that 'burnt' or tired feeling at all.  It helps immensely with my back...probably more taking my mind off of it more than anything else, but not once have I felt 'groggy' or 'couchlocked'.  When overdone, mind just goes blank till I snap out of it.

About the cure...you guys are gonna love this...after waiting 12 to 15 weeks to finish, don't even bother trying to smoke it without a 6 week MINIMUM cure...unless you are like me and sometimes get a kick out of hot flashes, racing heart, intense paranoia, bordered by vegetable brain.:stoned:  3 months cure gets rid of all that and length of high goes through the roof.

So I guess, welcome to my ongoing journal.  Should we call it Elephant's Whorehouse?  How about "...small case of hermies."?  :rofl: 

I will continue to post soilmixes and stuff and help anyone who wants it.  I still haven't signed up for the 'solo-cup grow' but I will be finishing ladies in 4" pots for you guys....just can't take the time to cater to a single cup right now. 

Eman:ccc:


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## Elephant Man

Lemme tell you guys something, the grow guides are just 'guidelines'.  Mother Nature makes the rules...and so far I have found, as long as you work together, there are hardly any rules at all.

Some strains will do just fine in flower with 3000 lumens per square foot...highland and northern latitude strains are accustomed to less direct light and cloudy days.

Rootmass definately improves yeild, but my experience shows me that 'rootbound' is not an 'illness' or even cause for concern.  Any hydro guy will tell you your 'medium' doesn't 'have' to do anything but support your plants, how much you feed depends on how rich or depleted (inert) your medium is.

Very new info over here.  OG outdoor grower guru type told me he does not trim or jar his plants for months.  Just lets them hang, fan leaves and all...for up to 8 months so far.  I was as skeptical as you...well...I tried it and it works.  I had a stunted plant that I flowered in a 6" pot on my first run, didn't feed it or anything...just let it finish in the corner.  After harvesting the big plants and being so excited, I decided to try my buddy's method, out of enormous respect I have for him.  Well, after this little plant hung in the rafters of the lab for 4 months I took it down.  I honestly thought it would be so dry it would turn to ash at the touch.  It is not.  Actually, it is perfect.  Not sure what else to say but try it yourself.

Point I wanna make is, I am about to get even crazier here at the lab.  I wanna stress that this is a 'bang or bust' attempt at breeding, and nearly all the methods I use lately are very advanced methods of growing.  By all means, if you are new to growing, I will try to keep this simple.  As far as your first grow?  Please, follow the advice given by most and the grow guides, 2 to 5 gallon buckets, veg till preflowers, cull males and clone, yada yada.

On with the show...

Eman:ccc:


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## Elephant Man

Okay, decided I probably will post a soilmix up soon after all...lemme get that straight in my head first.

Just chillin this sunday, popped 2 more DF99x'clips' hoping for a male, one is a triploid.  Popped 2 troublemakers hoping for a boy and girl, and a few more Cherry Malawi for fun...since I have tons.  Gonna sneak in flower tonight right before lights on and get a pic of my late sativa clones I think you guys will like.  

So here are some pics of male flower cab, my Cherry Malawi male, K2 x WR male, and babies in flower.


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## kindphriend

Amazing Eman!  Looking excellent.  Hopefully with some of your expert tutilage i can have some pictures to put up that are as sexy as those.  Nice work!

EDIT-I would like to add that your research on the NPK breakdowns of organic materials is AMAZING!!! One question, when you say (ash) you mean you burn them and only use the ashes....guess this is a dumb question, but want to be sure.


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## Elephant Man

kindphriend said:
			
		

> Amazing Eman! Looking excellent. Hopefully with some of your expert tutilage i can have some pictures to put up that are as sexy as those. Nice work!
> 
> EDIT-I would like to add that your research on the NPK breakdowns of organic materials is AMAZING!!! One question, when you say (ash) you mean you burn them and only use the ashes....guess this is a dumb question, but want to be sure.


 
Yes...just the ash...it can be very alkaline though, so make sure to check ph after.  There are government links to all food items breakdown, of course, we only want plants.

Pretty wasted here, but just wanted to put up some pics for you guys.
JHxO clones and NL#5 x Afghani

P.S.   If you guys get the chance, go back and read the links I posted...especially the ones about soil management and compost teas.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew

hmm, how do you like that diamond reflective mylar eman? I don't know if you've used the regular type, but if you have in your oppinion which reflected the light better?


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## TURKEYNECK

*Lookin good 'Emang'...*


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## Elephant Man

LaserKittensGoPewPew said:
			
		

> hmm, how do you like that diamond reflective mylar eman? I don't know if you've used the regular type, but if you have in your oppinion which reflected the light better?


 
High LKGPP , make yourself at home.
I really don't think the reflective stuff I bought is the best made, but it was cheap and durable...I have already moved it 3 times. 

Turkey my man, glad to see ya dropping by. Today the lunch special is Afghani Orange.:smoke1:

Just got another HUGE donation of genetics...thought I would share the list with you:

Cherry Malawi x Durban Poison 99
Durban Poison x 'clips'
Swazi Safari
Cherry Malawi x DP S.A.G.E.  
Swazi safari x Cherry Thai  
DF99 x EG-WW/EG-BB
DF99 x TW-S.A.G.E.-99

Time to get germing.... 

Eman:ccc:


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## Sticky_Budz

Damn Eman this **** looks great man. gotta whip the drool off my chin lol


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## Runbyhemp

*RESPECT*    E- Man :48:


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## DLtoker

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Cherry Malawi x Durban Poison 99
> Durban Poison x 'clips'
> Swazi Safari
> Cherry Malawi x DP S.A.G.E.
> Swazi safari x Cherry Thai
> DF99 x EG-WW/EG-BB
> DF99 x TW-S.A.G.E.-99



I could say I hate you, but we all know that would be a lie.  Jealousy and amazment are the feelings I get when I think about your grow.  I can hardly control myself thinking about Swazi Safari x Cherry Thai.  You must get the best high as well as a great Sativa yield.  Eman, you are the epitome of organic Sativa grows.


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## Elephant Man

Well...some of you may remember I messed around with SOG clones. Finally harvest day for one of the little ones. JHxO clone with a few days veg and a handful of dirt and **** in a 4 inch pot.


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## DLtoker

Nice!  That smoke should last you through noon right?:bump: :laugh: :48:


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## DLtoker

Did you know if you google ""Cherry Malawi" marijuana"  Eman's journal is the first to come up!  Now that is called getting some hits everyday:aok:


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*Whats going on Eman. Damn bro sorry to here about your problems with mold and hermies. Have you figured out what is causing it? That lady in the 4 inch pot is killer mang or should i say was.  *


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## newgreenthumb

Still looking good eman, sorry about the few problems you had.


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## Elephant Man

Thanks guys.:aok:

The mold thing was a simple mistake...completely rediculous and nearly impossible to have mold here in the desert, it was a simple curing blunder.

My buddy Fing helped me sort that one out...truth is, the bag and jar method of curing is just a fast way around the proper way.  Hence DJ Short's title, 'the short cure method'.  In reality, if you can, just leave it hanging for months in the proper environment.  Tried it and I am much happier now.:smoke1:

Hemies:  Well, to be honest with you, I am not afraid.  One has to understand why it happens, it is an emergency system in place...and a very good one.  In reality, we all have this 'genetic backup system' in place to thank for the fact MJ has survived our eradication attempts.  The reason my JHxO hermed, is because it was a response given from equatorial sativas.  In low latitude areas, the foliage holds the nutes, there is no topsoil...when the plant dies, it feeds it's offspring.  By accidentally hitting one clone with a big dose of N late in flower, I caused her to attempt to revert....a tip to those growing strong sativa doms....better to starve them late in flower, it helps them finish.

Always more problems though, heat got a hold of my worms and they are not happy....I started a bigger bin on concrete and am hoping for the best, but I am short castings now and they are expensive. 

I am going to post a kind of DIY for cloning phenos tonight...I think I need to.  I also have a few entering 3 and 4 months cure I need to post strain reports for.


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## Elephant Man

This Cherry Malawi was left in a 4 inch pot for fun, just to show peeps you do not need a special strain to grow little plants.  Limit root zone and flower from seed.  About halfway for this one.

Hmmmm, wonder how many of these will fit under 400.


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## Elephant Man

Some of you long time 'living organic' followers may remember some posts early on in regards to my first organic mentor REv (rolanterroy). Unfortunately he is still MIA as far as I know, but thanks to the net, much of his work has been archived. IMO, it is invaluable reading for anyone having a tough time figuring this out. REv is a guru of organics and breeding, and a 'cite' in my book....in addition to an excellent tutor.  Off topic but, an important thing to consider, is that wisdom and experience is not all that makes him a 'cite'.  IMO, it is knowing the difference between opinion and fact...and REv is very clear in this regard in all his work...much respect...all the best wishes for him and his. :heart: 

I wanted to post a soilmix for you guys, then I found REv's latest one I know of....so similar to mine, I wouldn't change a thing.:aok:

If you guys can't find something in particular, let me know...I can help you sub it out prolly'.

Enjoy



> I have been using this with huge success with some local med peeps and so I thought I would share it. This mix is powerful, and you NEED to water it down well and let it "cook" for at least 7-10 days before using it or else some strains will trip a little. But as long as it sits for a bit and stays moist that whole time it's all good and powerful!
> 
> You pretty much only need good water with this one, and either spike in some bone meal into the flowering container transplant or just use a Fox Farms Big Bloom regiment which also works fine.
> 
> I recommend R/O water here (or distilled or rain water) but I have seen killer results with peeps using dechlorinated tap water as well, which is kindof amazing to me, but I loves it! Just use apple cider vinegar to bring it to about 6.5 pH and let it age for about 12 hrs bubbling and you're good to go mangs. OK here we go:
> 
> Let me say first theis is just what I do, take from it what you will or not, it's just for the hell of it and I wanna try and get more simple with everything too for you guys who like it that way; me, I'm a complicated f***er LoL!
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> The Following mix uses a 5 gallon bucket and an empty tote or something..
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> In a 5 gallon bucket combine:
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> *1/3rd Good Organic Potting Soil* - I recommend Fox Farms Ocean Forest
> 
> *1/3rd Mushroom Compost or Top soil*, no nutes really, and Chunky/woody.
> 
> *1/3rd Vermiculite/Perlite* mixed together 50/50
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> _** for sprouts and freshly rooted clones, just the organic soil cut by 1/3rd with the vermiculite/perlite is bomber
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> POUR THESE INTO THE TOTE AND ADD THE FOLLOWING:
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> *3 cups earthworm castings*
> This stuff brings so many good things to the table I can't list them all; this is an essential addition and makes for very happy boomin' plants!
> 
> *1 cup Kelp meal *
> I use Down to Earth brand here, this has some N, and a good kicker of K (potassium) and covers a very broad band of trace elements; as well as some cool hormones etc. absolutely fantastic stuff!
> 
> *1 cup crushed oyster shells*
> I love this stuff, and for soil structure purposes it rocks, but I have also noticed after harvesting when I take apart the rootballs slowly and examine the roots habits around varios additions, that there are always big soil aggrigates around the oyster shells. These are created by the exudes and polysaccarides of the microlife and so shows me they love these, I figure due to the local pH influences of the calcium carbonate which is what oyster shells are made of.
> 
> *1/2 cup cottonseed or soybean meal*
> This is one of your prime long term slow release N sources and some killer organic matter as well. Into flowering cannabis really loves to be able to tap into some slow N like this and the diff between flower size in side by sides with and without this is noticable!
> 
> *1 cup used coffee grounds*
> Great organic matter excellent slow release N source too, and I have a theory that pot likes caffine too LoL cuz man you can sure tell they like something extra special in coffee grounds yessir!
> 
> *3 tablespoons Blood/Bone/Green blend*
> This is composed of 1 part Blood meal, 1 part steamed Bonemeal, and 2 parts Greensand. I prefer using Fishbone Meal here by Down to Earth brand, but I also love Fox Farms PoM steamed bonemeal as well.
> 
> *4 tablespoons of prilled (pelletized or granulated) dolomite lime*
> My number 1 magnesium source right here along with excellent buffering in micro-environments within the soilmix. You can use about 1/3rd as much powdered lime here as well, but I prefer the granulated myself.
> 
> *3 tablespoons Fox Farms PoM All Purpose 5-5-5*
> Great stuff, great microbeasties, and some kindof *magic* pH balancing lies within this stuff. A fantastic all purpose dry nutrient here IMO.
> 
> *3 tablespoons Soft Rock Phosphate (micronized if possible)*
> This is myco-fungi's favorite source to bring P from to the roots from all I have read and it sure seems true as hell, try it you'll see your yields go way the hell up! Also a good source for sulphur and magnesium.
> 
> *2 tablespoons High N Bat Guano*
> Really powerful N source here, fast burning at about 45 days total with good microlife boomin' and promotes good strong fast growth. I use Down to Earth brand here.
> 
> Mix all together fairly well, water good with 1 teaspoon per gallon of Blackstrap Molasses included and let cook foir about 7-10 days before use. Keep it almost over-moist for 7-10 days, not soggy but good and watered.
> 
> *CONTAINER STUFF:*
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> BOTTOM 1/5th of containers :
> 
> *3 parts composted steer or chicken manure, 1 part crushed oyster shells*. If you can't get oyster shells, use a little dolomite lime and some perlite/vermiculite for aeration purposes and buffering cuz the manure gets pretty hot heh heh.
> 
> TOP 1/5th of containers :
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> *1 part Basic mix above (base mix) and 1 part Earthworm castings, with an additional 1 teaspoon per gallon of container size of: Bird Guano, Prilled Dolomite, and PoM 5-5-5*
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> OK there ya have it, hopefully some of you will find this helpfull to you; there are many ways to grow great herbs and this is one of them.
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> Additionally here I wanna add that you should use some myco-fungi from day 1 and I use poth the granulated during transplants and the water soluable here and there as well mixed with water and applied that way. Good established myco-fungi is one of the big keys here to a great and bountyful yield! My yields were one thing that bothered me early on when growing 100% organics, and those days are long gone hahaha, I yield BIG and KILLER buds consistantly with all strains I have grown this way to date.
> 
> Although my personal mix is more complex that this one (Duh, I'm a dork that way) and I use things like Humes and Soilbuilder, Yucca extract, yada yada, this mix has proven to kick major organic *** several times already under fairly different environmental situations. On one occasion, since we couldn't get the growroom temps down below 80DEG F. we had to cut the base mix by about 1/4th with additional Mushrrom Compost cuz it was just metabolizing too fast and getting too powerful too fast. So this is always an option should your needs be likewise for that or other reasons.
> 
> I also like to use Blackstrap Molasses (unsulphured) about every 3rd watering at a rate of 1 teaspoon per gallon; using it everytime keeps a larger amount of nutrients immobilized within the massive PoPulations of microlife themselves, so you want the rythm goin' on so they boom then die back releasing all the goodies they be a holdin'
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> 
> OK good peeps, hope you guys dig this! One post rather than 37 pages heh heh, gettin' simpler fellas hahahaha!


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew

Man...After seeing yours and HGB's 4" pot grows and solo cup grows...I'm almost thinking of just growing as many as I can get to fit in a 6 square foot space under a 600w. Is there any deminished quality in the bud from growing like this? I'm caught between growing 6 plants in 3 gallon buckets and growing a lot more in these small pots. What do you think?


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## Elephant Man

LaserKittensGoPewPew said:
			
		

> Man...After seeing yours and HGB's 4" pot grows and solo cup grows...I'm almost thinking of just growing as many as I can get to fit in a 6 square foot space under a 600w. Is there any deminished quality in the bud from growing like this? I'm caught between growing 6 plants in 3 gallon buckets and growing a lot more in these small pots. What do you think?


 
If this is your first time growing, I would stick with stable hybrids, 2-3 gallon pots, vegging to preflowers....etc.

As far as maturity having anything with potency, I personally don't think so, but this is debateable.  IMO, nearly impossible to prove or disprove...too many variables involved between genetics and environment.

One thing is obvious though, some of the most powerful herbs on the planet come from very close to the equator, where there is never more than 13 hours of light a day.  Time to maturity from birth has alot to do with a 12/12 regime from birth...some plants will be very small, some can hit 6-7 feet...with no veg light cycle, but as I understand it, potency is not affected either way.


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## Elephant Man

More commentary br REv on the mix above:



> Thanks guys heh heh, and remember that this is a base-mix, it's complete with everything cannaplants need pretty much heh heh. So if it is a little too hot by itself for some genetics just cut it with some topsoil or vermiculite or whatever. All the stuff I have seen in this mix (straight up no cut) kicks major *** heh heh. Plus there's plenty of room for modifications too.
> 
> One thing I wanna stress (again LoL) to you guys is the importance of watering twice (or slowly like a drip or whatever) to make sure the whole container-mix gets watered when ya do water. This has major effects on things like Ca and Mg too, cuz the roots will quickly start "guiding" waterflow within the mix and they tend to cause dry-spots which can cause several little prollems, mostly as I have seen with Ca and Mg; so don't forget mangs, it's a GREAT growing habit to get into!
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> ** RECENTLY **
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> I have started cutting my R/O water with ever-so small percentages of Tap water; now, the reasons I do this is due to the fact that cannabis (and most plants too) use some seriously exotic trace elements in super-small nano-amounts, stuff like Cobalt, Aluminum, even Chlorine
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> and so Tap water being a PRIMO source for all these (except I bubble out the Chlorine) I use it at a rate of: 3 parts r/o water to 1 part Tap water about every 3rd watering or so. This has worked out fine and dandy for many med-peeps I have on this plan heh heh. But that's just like my own little tweak and they grow just fine and dandy using R/O water or Distilled water as well.
> 
> I am currently running a few at a friends house using straight up (de-chlorinated) tap water, my theory is that my exotic Biozome micro-beasties can make this OK, we shall see!
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> BIOZOME LINKER :  BIOZOME
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> Rock On good peeps!
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> - REvonator


 


> *Marine Cuisine*, *American Pride* Etc...
> 
> When using (great) nutes like these that have many uses, the "type" I am referring to is combined fast and long term release dry nutes like the above and others. You can add these right on the floor of your containers, no soilmix between it and the bottom of the containers and they work fantastic like this. This allows the bigger roots exploring the container bottoms to find and use these very easily when placed as I say above.
> 
> Sometimes if I am growing a super exotic strain, like a land race or something, I will aften times use about 1/2 teaspoon of Marine Cuisine on the floor of a 5" container and keep the soilmix itself on the weak side. This always has worked out fantastic for me and others that have used it as well.
> When growing longer flowering strains this is also a handy fast addition into the flowering container transplant; just keep in mind these nutes above and many like it will release good amounts of nutes for 60+ days... So just keep that all in your head as far as flowering times go.
> 
> - REv


 


> Oh heh heh, one more important thing I think I should clear up regarding this dynamic mix.....
> 
> DOn't place your rootball during a transplant, directly on *the bottom (1/5th) layer* of composted **** x oyster shells/whatever... Always have at least a few inches of base mix between it and the rootball
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> I find it advantageous to "scoot" this layer out around the bottom rim of the container so that it is a big ring at the floor of the container rather than just a normal layer. This works really well I'm pretty sure because the biggest hunter/water roots love to go arond the bottoms of your containers, and so it simply makes it all that much more simple for them to just "swim" in all that powerful **** and absorb mucho nutrients and elements from it.
> 
> This mix is also absolutely killer to recycle. As you recycle it, keep in mind that some of your elements, like the bonemeal, rock phosphate, greensand etc, will still be chuggin' along pretty good so less additions are good as you progress. Also, your Vermiculite/Perlite and Oyster Shells additions will fall back as you recycle your *** off, cuz they recycle right along with everything else heh heh.
> 
> - REvonator


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## Elephant Man

Sorry guys, several posts tonight...trying to catch you guys up on some stuff. 

This one is just some harvest pics. Strain is 'NL#5 X Afghani'. She was vegged till preflowers at about 3 weeks (I see them VERY early ) and sent in to flower...went 8-9 weeks, I don't keep track...only from pheno to pheno. This grow of this strain was only a test, and not about optomization. I fed her lightly, observed, and took notes. She was pollenated, and after a 3 month cure I will decide whether or not to keep her. 2 other phenos were seeded also and taken last week, but this one 'appears' to be the alpha pheno...only time will tell. So far her aroma is very nice...on the fruity side...very sticky girl too, and pistils lean towards an orange color. Very hybrid like bud structure, lankiness of a sativa, but full of bracts and leaf trichs like an indy. IMO, phenos were close enough to have been F1's, but too soon to tell. We will see what happens next go around, if I like her smoke.

It appears Blue Mystic (blueberry X SK1) may be on the way out.:bump: Looks like my 'narcotic bedtime smoke' is being replaced.

Something very special happened....here is the story:

Of my White Widow run, I saw 10 of 10 phenos. I pollenated all fems with my favorite male, and decided to take notes. At the time I did not know why I was doing what I did, but I do now...and I am incredibly thankful.

You cloners out there...listen carefully...

During WW's entire time in flower, I was particularly excited about one extremely vigorous pheno. Yeilded 25% more (or so) over all the others, had a beautiful 'yellow' tint, and smelled of wonderful earthy spice. I was very excited to sample this girl, and after a short one month cure, I did.

Not all that impressed. As always, taken just abit early on my first run...more about making seed...but I can base alot on that...having messed with smoking everything I grow (early, males, late, before and after cure). I still have to do a few more 'sober morning wake and tests' with her, and revisit her after 2 more months cure, but you get the idea. Much more experimenting necessary to test her tolerance effects and ceiling. 

So....anyway...I was pretty discouraged but a week later, I thought to sample one of the other phenos. Wow...:stoned: broke up a small joint, saving my seeds made, and stained my fingers orange. Very 'fuel' like smell too. I actually had to scrub my fingers clean just to finish rolling the joint...should have seen how excited I was to light it. 

Ok....this really means nothing to me YET, but this was the most powerful joint I have smoked yet. Even surpassing a freind's, a 50/50 iso-hash joint, etc. I have smoked 2 and 1/2 joints playing with JHxO ceiling (or lack of ) and been way more wasted, but for only being able to finish half of a joint of this, I was very impressed.

More tested is needed with her tolerance and ceiling though...in all honesty, she could still be no better than 'street weed'. Depends on what is important to you.

Fellow poster and sativa lover 'Motaco' said it best:


> Reminds me of what an old dealer I used to have would tell people. It was during that era that "indo" was starting to actually hit the street market. Just powerful sleepy BC indica in those days. back when kindbud lbs were red not green lol.
> 
> He didn't like this new bud, or the market. He said people were trying to turn weed into drugs and he didn't like it, didn't think it was good for people cuz it didn't get them high it got them loaded and sleepy, and he wasn't going to sell it. He was very oldschool. Never owned a pipe; he rolled everything he smoked. Rare to find he had quality control on his schwag. he wouldn't buy nasty lbs. only the good ones. Good schwag and midgrade was all he ever sold.
> 
> When people would come around and ask for "endo" he'd tell them: "Two blocks down and make a right, they got black tar heroin $10 dollar holla's. Your gonna have to go catch your NODS with them fools because we're getting HIGH on this corner"
> 
> and I know where he's coming from. we got weed that gets you HIGH and we got weed that gets you LOW. if your looking to get LOW you better stop and think on it for a while. are you actually trying to catch a weed buzz or maybe just substituting it for something else?


 

Anyway, you cloners, unless you are growing specifically for yeild (whether it is rope or drugs:huh: ) you are much better off keeping clones of all your phenos till after long cure and much testing. I actually have discovered I will need a few samplers with more discerning pallats than myself very soon....any volunteers?...just kidding :rant:


----------



## DLtoker

Haha... Oh Eman.  That's a very good point and one I actually follow.  I learned that the hard way by loosing out on my only killer Twilight pheno.  

And Rev's 07 soil mix... Between that and what I've seen you make, I made myself my simpler soil mix which is working out fantastic so far.  Thanks for sharing the knowledge!


----------



## HerbiJesus

hi there E-Man all this info is absolutly priceless to me, thanks man.  on my next grow i'm gonna try the above mix. i'll have to go hunting all the ingredients. cheers bud!!


----------



## newgreenthumb

Eman the mad scientist.  You are truly a modern day Dr Frankenstein.  Do ya thing homie! :farm:


----------



## Elephant Man

:banana: You guys are the reason I post.  I dream of the day we can all sit and enjoy our organic goodness together, legally.  This fat doobie and many others are here waiting for that day.:tokie: 

DL and NGT my 'beastie farming' bros, let me know if there is anything I can do for you...don't be shy...post up right here if you like...I haven't been making my rounds as much as I would like. ...too busy reading.

Herbibrother: Are you in the USA my freind?  East or west coast?  I can help you find stuff, don't be afraid to ask.

Right now, believe it or not, I am stuck on males.  More research has led me to believe that the key in my seed lies within the male...after all, fems are easy to choose.:ccc:  I have full flowered perhaps 50 males now...about 10 strains, and one 'stud' has stood out.  I thought that was enough, but it appears I will have to use the 'progeny' method.

I know this sounds like mumbo jumbo to you guys, I promise I will explain soon.  I really don't see a point in hiding my methods from you...and no, I will never make you buy a book. 

I wanna say something here about 'semi-organics'.  As REv has stated, if you are running Biozome or Subculture or any other super-exotic beasties, I believe they can take a little more abuse...they are gathered from the harshest climates on earth.  BUT...before I add ANYTHING to my soil I want to know what is in it.  Guys like REv I trust (I hear you too KADE ) use things like 'Superthrive'.  Believe me my fellow farmers, I looked into the stuff.  The only 'secret' ingrediant I discovered in it is Triacontinol, which is in the alfalfa meal and alfalfa pellets I use (rabbit food).  Unless someone can tell me exactly what is in a product, I don't add it...simple as that.  By the way, if you use 'Stuporthrive', please, do not add it in flower. 

Just a couple of pics of more 'wackiness'.  We call this a 'soilbed'.  For me it is my indoor garden:farm: :heart: ....plant a seed, harvest a plant...I am going to love it. 

View attachment aviiii.bmp


----------



## newgreenthumb

Hey Eman I have a question.  I gave my plants a drink with 1 tbsp of molassess/per gallon of water and now the smell pissy.  Like a cat pissed in the pots.  Is this a natural reaction and do it being a beastie grow?  If not what are the remedies?  Thanks in advance.


----------



## HerbiJesus

hi E-Man, i live in england, but i do all my shopping online, i'm finding it difficult to find the things i need, i found things like black strap molasses and crushed oyster shells on e-bay, iv'e got plenty of time to gather everything together for my next grow. iv'e still got a few weeks left on my current plants. if you got any good orgaic suppliers online i'd appreciate it. thanks


----------



## Elephant Man

NGT: One tablespoon is abit heavy on the molasses, I usually never go over one teaspoon.  I have to add it nearly every feeding once flower starts (possibly low RH), but a big thing to remember is we don't want our beasties too have it to easy ...there is plenty of food in our soil for them to work on...without handfeeding them candy.  I hear alot of growers talking about causing your beasties to 'boom and recede' with infrequent feedings and lots of the purest water possible the rest of the time, this seems to provide the best results.

Hebijesus: Oh right...UK...I forgot....did I give you that Plagron soilmix?  As you know, I am a firm believer in Biobizz products too...especially for those in UK that can get them cheaper than I can.

Ebay is a great place too, as is any nursery or even feed store (livestock)...you would be surprised how much of this stuff those places will have.

I don't have any links to specific UK shops though, sorry, but I have seen them....I will look around and try to get a pm out to you soon.


----------



## newgreenthumb

Thanks E! I was told that 2 tbps of h2o2 added to a gallon of water will help kill the anerobic beasties and leave oxygen for the aerobic ones.  If this is true can I use this to remedy it.


----------



## Elephant Man

newgreenthumb said:
			
		

> Thanks E! I was told that 2 tbps of h2o2 added to a gallon of water will help kill the anerobic beasties and leave oxygen for the aerobic ones. If this is true can I use this to remedy it.



I tell ya man...the only 2 things I fear really are H2O2 and salts. Anareobic beasties are not bad, but I have seen from composting, they come from overwatering and compaction. You can tell if you get them, from old tea and from not turning compost often enough...actually, I don't toss them, old tea or soil...just let it dry thoroughly and they will recede...add old tea to old soil or compost and let it dry out.  I have a hard time seeing any ferts go to waste.

I have to say something about my experience with soilbeds so far...this is not directed at you NGT, or anyone in particular....but

2 things to remember:

1) As just about everything in this thread lately, this is an advanced method. Sorry to keep repeating that, but the truth is, it is very difficult to bring young ones up in large amonts of soil...overwatering in big containers, or uncertainty with feedings can be disasterous. I am feeding and water 1/3 as much and much less often...very little room for error...every feeding counts.

2) Please notice in the diagram how Soma calls this an 'organic soilbed'. In my opinion, it would be VERY difficult to do this with synthetic ferts. As you can see, there is no drain...so there is no flushing. I think it could be done, but you better really know your ferts and plants.

One more random tip...I see alot of new growers making a very simple mistake...plants are different from humans...they get energy from light...not food.  Feeding your soil and keeping it rich is providing the environment for the most light usage...adding more food will not increase this...find a happy medium/schedule and stick to it, your plants will do the rest.  Small changes are much better, don't fight with the fact that your plant is trying to adapt to you, you will both be going opposite directions.


----------



## newgreenthumb

Thanks E!


----------



## HerbiJesus

i think it was shuggy who you gave the plagron too, but i did see that.
iv'e been looking at the bio-bizz all mix, but if i go with that, i'm not sure if i should be adding things to it.
it says that the all mix contains a blend of baltic peat moss, compost,worm castings, perlite and a special pre-mix.
if i go with that should i still be adding things like crushed oyster shells and dolmite lime or anything else?


----------



## Elephant Man

HerbiJesus said:
			
		

> i think it was shuggy who you gave the plagron too, but i did see that.
> iv'e been looking at the bio-bizz all mix, but if i go with that, i'm not sure if i should be adding things to it.
> it says that the all mix contains a blend of baltic peat moss, compost,worm castings, perlite and a special pre-mix.
> if i go with that should i still be adding things like crushed oyster shells and dolmite lime or anything else?


 
Not on the first go round.  If you want to recycle your soil, that is where your amendments will come into play.

I can get about 2 runs out of ocean forest without adding anything...but you will have to feed more...and sooner 2nd time around.  I would imagine biobizz will work the same...good soil is good soil.

I think they have 2 mixes...one for seedlings and one for clones.  I wouldn't be afraid to email them and ask questions either...they are MJ freindly...they produce seed too.

Also, there may not be many biobizz soil users on this board, but they are out there...I'm sure you can find one that recycles...I will keep my eyes open for you.


----------



## HerbiJesus

cheers for the help :aok:  
i am going with bio-bizz, and i'll probably start a journal so people can see how it goes. im gonna check out there seeds now. catch ya later.


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Also, there may not be many biobizz soil users on this board, but they are out there...I'm sure you can find one that recycles...I will keep my eyes open for you.



there isnt really....  i would but there soil is hard to get here in the usa


----------



## newgreenthumb

Hey Eman I understood what you said earlier about 'superthrive' but for the price that was the best I could get as far as ammendments go.  It did help my crop along with a light H2O2 and water treatment, it helped remove the pissy smell and grow did hasten alittle.  Thanks as your journal is most informative.


----------



## Elephant Man

newgreenthumb said:
			
		

> Hey Eman I understood what you said earlier about 'superthrive' but for the price that was the best I could get as far as ammendments go. It did help my crop along with a light H2O2 and water treatment, it helped remove the pissy smell and grow did hasten alittle. Thanks as your journal is most informative.


 
Yeah...I think those that are pushing for yeild should try nearly anything...can't hurt...just make small changes...one grow at a time.

I push for flavor, and don't push very hard.  I try to find the simplest amendments possible...just to give them what they need.  Luckily, these are usually the cheapest too.

Kinda bummed guys...I was just about ready to lift the curtain on the 'big soilbed show'.  I did a quick compost this time, 2x 50 gallon bins, and was way short on soil....ph was still a little high too.  I mixed some more humus, peat, coco, old soil in and soaked it in Biozome again...few more gallons of steer, rabbit, chicken **** too, along with more cottonseed meal...see if I can get it down from the 6.8 I have been running to closer to 6.3.  Just a hunch I will like this lower base ph better.

This thing is close to 150 gallons. 

I am actually considering a 100X open pollenation in this thing...maybe 90 fems and 10 boys.  ....and yes....for those that don't know, I am crazy.

Other box full of soil is waiting composting, no lights or plants, just my 'compost pile'....my worms are in there somewhere.  I never really guessed before but I think I am over 400 gallons total  ...pretty cool.

You can also see most of my main ventilation system, homemade carbon filter is on the left.


----------



## Elephant Man

Swazi Safari (A pheno) is a hermie!  Somehow I got lucky again...everything seeded is done and comes down next week.  She was parked in the best corner for it to happen too...gonna spend the rest of the night snooping, but so far...not too much damage.

Simply don't have time for this right now, so she is dead.  Actually, I'm not all thay impressed with her sister either...she stinks like skunk. 

Now...that is not all bad...but I wanted Swazi, not skunk.  I am not that fond of the scent in my grow, and just a hunch, but I think skunk is an old cross and probably needs some work.  Good part is, 2 of my other crosses have skunk in them, but thankfully those traits are recessive...for now.

Actually....come to think of it...I have real Swazi (redhead) coming from Africa soon.  Think I am going to go ahead and cull her siblings too.  2 males and 2 more fems.

Gave NL#5 x Afghani a really early taste test (2 weeks hanging) and more disappointment.  She has the Afghani flavor I love, but she is narcotic to the core.  VERY strong too...took 2 hits and felt my eyes droop and tummy rumble.  Took 2 more and got pretty numb, but totally clouded too.  Stupified...I hate it.  Oh well...many more waiting for their chance to try.

I crossed this girl with somebody...have to look at my notes, but pretty sure I am done with her...adios amiga...it was short and sweet.:bump:


----------



## Elephant Man

Well...my holiday started off crappy. Fems gone male...narcotic smoke...

Then as it often does...something special happened.

Thanks to a very cool freinds help, I was able to get a mini photo shoot for some prime cured bud, without risking too much.   Thank you, my brother in the yellow shoes. Means so much to finally share these pics with my pals...TBG, HGB, DL, NGT, KADE, HICK, all of you who have dropped by the lab, these pics are for you. 

3-4 month cure on these...Blueberry x Sk1 and Jack Herer x Oaxacan, and yes...these were 2 of the first MJ seeds I ever planted.:smoke1:

As always, freinds, remember the only rule while visiting the lab...load your bowl or what not and pass it around.


----------



## Runbyhemp

Bowl is loaded and passin it on :bong2:  Nice pics E Man


----------



## DLtoker

Great looking smoke!  Too bad pics don't hit the palate!


----------



## HGB

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Thank you, my brother in the yellow shoes. Means so much to finally share these pics with my pals...TBG, HGB, DL, NGT, KADE, HICK, all of you who have dropped by the lab, these pics are for you.



great shots brother E   and thanks to the man in yellow  



look'n forward to the Swazi (redhead)  girls  

just wait untill its been in cure for 6 months or more  


grow on


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*That's what i'm talking about Eman.   Great shots and man does that bud look MMMMMMMM   Got my bong with me ready for packing. :aok: *


----------



## LaserKittensGoPewPew

whoa..3-4 month cure! Is there a noticable difference between bud cured for a month as opposed to 3-4? Looks delicious.


----------



## Fing_57

Oh Yeah you'll see a difference :aok: 


some of my 05 OD is JUST where I like it

but some of 04 IN has gone too far ....... I cut too late to let it last that long

more flavors and a mellower smoke 
my 1st C99 had to sit a bit ... she made you twitch a little,bugs on you, paranoia  

tried her every month until she was ready   


was 6months later:joint:


----------



## DLtoker

I don't have a full understanding of this curing thing.  I know it makes it smoother to hit, but the high???  Won't the THC just break down more over time even when stored properly?  Why not take less hits?


----------



## Sticky_Budz

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> Well...my holiday started off crappy. Fems gone male...narcotic smoke...
> 
> Then as it often does...something special happened.
> 
> Thanks to a very cool freinds help, I was able to get a mini photo shoot for some prime cured bud, without risking too much.   Thank you, my brother in the yellow shoes. Means so much to finally share these pics with my pals...TBG, HGB, DL, NGT, KADE, HICK, all of you who have dropped by the lab, these pics are for you.
> 
> 3-4 month cure on these...Blueberry x Sk1 and Jack Herer x Oaxacan, and yes...these were 2 of the first MJ seeds I ever planted.:smoke1:
> 
> As always, freinds, remember the only rule while visiting the lab...load your bowl or what not and pass it around.


Hey Eman just had to pop in bro. DO u need any help with smoking that sweet budz u got going there lol oh by the way did u say that that cured for six months damn so whats the deal there the longer u cure the better? well have a great day peace


----------



## Dizoelio

Nice pics man.   Learned alot from your journal.  Can't wait for a new one to pop up!   Anyhow have a great day man and hope all your future grows are awesome.


----------



## DLtoker

I heard your rabbit got out of it's cage!!!


----------



## newgreenthumb

Thanks for the pics man.  Gives us motivation to go on with the grow thang!


----------



## Elephant Man

Well....I can't ever give out rep when I want too, but don't worry freinds, an elephant never forgets. 

You guys love those dry nug shots don't ya?  I dunno why I prefer looking at the plants....everyone posts great 'budsite' pics, but I like to look at veggers, leaf pics, root shots....the whole package.  I think everyone should include a rootshot in their harvest shots.  I really need a nice camera....maybe soon.  I did get one more really nice shot of JHxO, and this weekend, I might have a few shots of NL#5xAfghan.

Have you guys and gals guessed yet?  I am wasted right now.  I scooped up some of my rolling tray scrapings, and blended possibly a ten-strain joint, and I am hammered with CBD's, THCV's, from strains all over the world.  But I feel like typing, so I am trying.:stoned: 

I got problems too....temps are coming, my back is killing, and I am stuck doing alot of reading on strains and breeding...still gathering organics info too.

I looked at my 3rd harvest now, hanging in the garage with most of my second.  Checked the closet with most of my first, looked at the popcorn and trim waiting in the freezer to be hashed, and then took a gander at all my seeded stash that I have to still sort....

I had to make a decision peeps...3 nights ago everything in main flower came down.  It was all either transplanted into the bed, hashed or hung.  My pain situation right now is just a little too much for me.:cry: 

I still have quite a few clones and seedlings in this newest bed, under one 400...but all other lights are off till winter.  Sorry peeps...just can't deal with all of it right now.  I am going to spend all summer reading, changing my entire garage around (once again) and composting everything.  Should be posting more helping peeps too...a journal like this is more than enough to handle by itself.

I'll probably post some more info here shortly, probably on sativas and organics, give updates on the plants still around, and I have something really special lined up for winter...a plan was devised...stay tuned.

Maybe I will cover the construction of the new flower rooms here.

See you soon....god bless you all.


----------



## Runbyhemp

Sorry to hear of your pain E Man. You have my best wishes


----------



## Elephant Man

Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> Sorry to hear of your pain E Man. You have my best wishes


 
Thanks mang. 

Found this tea on the net and I haven't tried it yet but I like it...:aok:

http://journeytoforever.org/garden_bugjuice.html



> *[FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]Milly's Bug Juice[/FONT]*
> 
> [FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]One 5 gallon bucket
> Corn starch
> Bread yeast
> Milly's MaxGro fishmeal (or use fish emulsion plus liquid seaweed emulsion)
> Ripe fruit, such as plums, apples, apricots, peaches, pears, watermelon, peeled bananas -- no citrus.[/FONT]
> *[FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]The Bug Juice Formula[/FONT]*
> 
> [FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]Yeast: Mix two teaspoons of dry baker's yeast, two teaspoons of sugar and one teaspoon of bread flour to 2 cups of warm water. Keep warm. It releases CO2, mix the solution to reduce the foam. Keep doing this until the mixture stops foaming. This means the sugar has been consumed. Add two tablespoons of cornstarch, or potato starch, 1 tablespoon of flour (a protein and nutrient source for the yeast) and allow the mixture to remain warm (very important) for 2 or more hours. Overnight is optimal. Then put it in the bucket.
> 
> Fruit: Pit the fruit, and puree it to a mush so it can be more rapidly digested by microorganisms. Add 1 pound or so to the bucket. Decaying fruit is fine -- it is already being attacked by microorganisms so it doesn't hurt to include them.
> 
> Cornstarch: Add 5 tablespoons to the bucket.
> 
> MaxGro: Add 10 tablespoons MaxGro (or fish emulsion plus liquid seaweed emulsion) to the bucket.
> 
> Fill the bucket with water to a few inches from the top and mix well. Add a handful of compost or the soil from around the root zone of a nicely growing plant (don't use surface soil). Place the bucket in the sun and put a piece of cheesecloth over it to keep flies away. Stir often. Don't fill the bucket up to the top.
> 
> After a week, start applying the mixture to your plants. It is best placed near the roots when transplanting (it prevents transplant shock). Otherwise, pour the Bug Juice into the soil around the plants. After it is absorbed, water extensively in order to get all the bugs and nutrients into the soil. They won't do any good if they remain on the surface. Apply 1 cup to 1 gallon of Bug Juice to each plant. Only trees and large plants require 1 gallon.
> 
> 
> Dr. Stephen Martin
> Milly's Gourmet Organics
> Mailing list email: [email protected]
> [/FONT]


 
MMMMMM....good.

I would add High P guano and cut the fish poo in half in flower.


----------



## DLtoker

Cool.  Is there a shelf life for this?


----------



## newgreenthumb

Sounds good eman but I have a question.  WIth our organic grows would there be a decreased need to flush the soil before harvest and you probably said this before but doesn't organic smoke and taste better? :bong2:
:


----------



## newgreenthumb

Hey Eman I wanted your opinion on this product because I intend to build a compost bin since the weather is getting warmer in my par ot the country.  Its a bacterial composter that is supposed to accelerate composting. 
http://www.roebic.com/septic/cc.htm  Thanks in advance. :farm:


----------



## Gods Advocate

WOW. Ive been sitting here since 10:45am reading this whole damn thing. I JUST FINISHED. Im quite impressed. Hahaha and boy am i looking forward to using some of your techniques and ideas in my first grow. Awesome job, keep up the good work, and post some more pictures!!!


----------



## newgreenthumb

Hey E! You still with us?  I hope that back thing is not holding you back.


----------



## allgrownup

do you fly rc planes?


also,  as far as composting goes.....costco 40 dollar black bin setup and make sure you have a source of leaves or dark compost.  lawn clippins are the easy part. earth worms or redworms amust as well and don't forgot to foregoe all you food scraps.

Edit....don't reply this is a GJ...i'm out of it......


----------



## Fing_57

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> JHxO


 
pop'd out 3/3 fems sharing a 1gl pot of ur WWxJH-O :holysheep: 

came up w/one in a 15gl pot too  

*for when you pop back in* :farm:


----------



## DLtoker

Aw man.  My heart rate jumped when I saw this thread pop up!!!:hitchair:


----------



## Viracocha711

BTW-What happened to EM? I noticed he has not been around....


----------



## Fing_57

this is for if he looks ....... little buds starting


----------



## DLtoker

Cool Fing.  I was playing with those Cherry Malawai and had some issues with germing unfortunately.  Then, I had issues with over fert throught the grow... even while doing live organics.  Tough little strain for me but still looks amazing!


----------



## Fing_57

Cherry Malawi

this is my 1st try with her OD ..... its been a mild summer but very windy


----------



## HGB

hope all is good your way E-man

thanks for the ton info you have posted  

much respect and thanks for all the help brother.........

grow on


----------



## SmokinMom

Fing_57 said:
			
		

> Cherry Malawi
> 
> this is my 1st try with her OD ..... its been a mild summer but very windy


 
Man I love looking at your pictures.      What camera do you have?  A Cannon or a Nikon?  Hahahahha.


----------



## Fing_57

Nikon 8700 and a cheap Olympus


----------



## Fing_57

rep point from Elephant Man today :holysheep:


----------



## HGB

I saw him peep'n as well LIL bro


----------



## DLtoker

No way!


----------



## Sticky_Budz

What happen to the Eman i miss all his info  hope all is well his way. Hope too see you soon bro peace


----------



## HGB

Sticky_Budz said:
			
		

> What happen to the Eman



said he has been chill'n out at the beach for a while


----------



## MrPuffAlot

Emans threads are threads thats just keeps on giving..


----------



## Ravishing_68

As a matter of fact Eman turned me on to a 5 gallon bucket system. At first I was skeptical worrying about the roots in there getting slimy or god forbid some other horrible scenario. He said use some hydroguard you'll be fine. I've had the great success from this unit which seems it would be an easy system to make yourself. The only thing I changed was the medium the plants were held on top. I use rockwool that I started them in seeds making sure the rockwool is just a bit bigger than the hole so I could jam them in (which is what I did, my rockwool was square and the holes that were drilled in the lid were round...ha ha see Eman even gone making a fact not a fact anymore... you can put a square through a circle!) eace:


----------



## Elephant Man

I am still around guyz and galz, just no internet or grow of my own right now.  Life is tough, relocating has been a nightmare, but as the sun rises, so shall the elephant. 

Got my 4 way cross on it's 4th generation at a buddies house, and still have my seed collection waiting on me to get my life back together.  Those who I promised seeds to, please hang in there.

Much love and sticky flowers to all.:48:


----------



## Mutt

Hey E-man, glad to see ya alive n kickin. Hope to see a grow soon.


----------



## SmokinMom

Mutt said:
			
		

> Hey E-man, glad to see ya alive n kickin. Hope to see a grow soon.


 
Ditto that.


----------



## HGB

who was that masked man  

:48:


----------



## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT

*It's great to see ya back around Eman. :aok:  Hope everything is well your way mang.  *


----------



## DLtoker

Whoa!  Eman!  Nice to see a post bro!  :smoke1:


----------



## Fing_57

what?


is he back?


where?




it's all lies


----------



## HGB

I heard he has been off play'n with ****  

and I mean way off like 


:48:


----------



## sportcardiva

nice


----------



## allgrownup

play'n with ****....ewwwwwwwwww


sitting on the edge of my seat waiting for some more of your org GJ's man


SHOUT! when your back at it.


----------



## Blunted

e man was over at no mercy forums, some pretty intresting concepts


----------



## Elephant Man

On borrowed connection, but had to stop in and say I missed you guys and gals.  

Back at it organically of course  , some of my crosses, some from freinds.

Will be back to update as I am able

Here's to making it through our grows with no interruptions, whether physical, emotional, or political.


----------



## Runbyhemp

Good to see you back E Man ! What crosses have you going on there ?


----------



## bombbudpuffa

Welcome back!


----------



## Elephant Man

Great to see both of you still rocking out :guitar: 



			
				Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> Good to see you back E Man ! What crosses have you going on there ?


 
Juicy Fruit Thai x Champagne
Durban Poison x 'clips'
'Phunt' (Jack Herer x Oaxacan X White Widow fuel pheno)
Blueberry x SK1 X White Widow fuel pheno
Cherry Malawi
Swazi Safari x Cherry Thai

think thats all of them  


:farm:


----------



## TURKEYNECK

yo! been too long E.. was wonderin' if you were still around.


----------



## Elephant Man

Supercoolio, Turkeymang in the house :farm: 

Lifes been good and it's not much but finally got a little space again to grow my organic meds and make a few seed along the way. :heart: 

Cranking along and hoping they sex soon cause they are a little cramped and this was a test of new enviro before the real fun begins.  :hubba: 

First pic is Durban Poison x 'clips' on your left and 'phunt' on your right.

Second pic is DP x 'c'

Third pic is 2 very different Cherry Malawi F2, digging on the one on your right. :headbang2: 

Love and good karma to all  :smoke1:  Eman


----------



## Elephant Man

Hope everyone had a wonderful Thanksgiving.  

They are doing great, settled on 6.  One CM, One DPxC, and 4 BMxWW, rest went to a buddys to finish outside.

First 2 pics are CM, 3rd pic and upskirt are DPxC, rest of that mess is bmx.  

Babies are upcoming full seeded grow of my buddy Rolanterroy's genetics.  Little beauty named 'Black Forrest' :hubba:  Vietnamese Black x Hawaiian Cherry.  Could call it breeding if ya want but will be an open pollenation of 11x F1's.  Hoping for at least 4 males and a few thousand seed.  

Hopefully, without any interruptions, I'll be back around Christmas time with more pix.

Peace and Good Karma  

*edit* don't think pics are in order, sorry


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## Mutt

Did we just get a drive by sativa post :holysheep:
:watchplant:


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## Elephant Man

Mutt said:
			
		

> Did we just get a drive by sativa post :holysheep:
> :watchplant:


 
LOL...we sativa growers drive so slow you can't see us


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## newgreenthumb

Hey Eman!  I haven't been on in a long time but how has things been going?  I thought you weren't coming back.  How's your back?  Obviously better, it is good to see you back. :48:


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## Easyrider

Great grow dude


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## Elephant Man

Hiya NGT  

back is still shot but I'm ok

Merry Christmas my brothers and sisters


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## happiehippie

nice work man.


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## Ravishing_68

Hey Friends! Long time for me to get back online... life gets so busy.  Glad I can still recognize some of the handles


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## Elephant Man

Ravishing_68 said:
			
		

> Hey Friends! Long time for me to get back online... life gets so busy. Glad I can still recognize some of the handles


 
My long lost race car drivin' lady of the green.  

Hope you and yours are having a wonderful holiday season sweetie.

Lemme know if you need anything, and get a hold of me in chat.


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## joseaf

Nice man. What a nice gift.


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## DLtoker

Hope all is working out for you Eman... :ccc:


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## Elephant Man

DLtoker said:
			
		

> Hope all is working out for you Eman... :ccc:


 
Better brother, good to hear from ya mang.  Gonna send you a private message bro, so keep an eye out.

Hope everyone has a very happy and safe new year!


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## Ravishing_68

Elephant Man said:
			
		

> My long lost race car drivin' lady of the green.
> 
> Hope you and yours are having a wonderful holiday season sweetie.
> 
> Lemme know if you need anything, and get a hold of me in chat.


 
We had an awesome Christmas and taking off to the coast tomorrow for days...good times eace:


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## Elephant Man

Been a while, just realized I never posted harvest pix.

5 plants, 250 watts of flouros, dry organic ferts in soil and water.

Contemplating what to run next, will let you know soon.

Peace and good karma.


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## Mutt

E-man you doin a drive by  
Grow looked great bro. Looks like you pushed them hard on the teas :hubba: 
Those overdriven flos do pretty good. esp when you only have 2' of ht to work with :holysheep: 
Keep it green bruddah :48:


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## Elephant Man

Mutt said:
			
		

> E-man you doin a drive by
> Grow looked great bro. Looks like you pushed them hard on the teas :hubba:
> Those overdriven flos do pretty good. esp when you only have 2' of ht to work with :holysheep:
> Keep it green bruddah :48:



Sorry bro I haven't been around more, will see if I can stop by more often.

No teas this last run bro, my style is still the same but has changed quite abit over the last few grows.  I only use dry ferts, pre-mixed in and one transplant.  As most know, I feed the soil and not the plant and keep my soil life happy, I have noticed considerably better results from pre mixing, and letting nature do it's thing.  Seems mom nature handles things fine and the less I mess with it, the better the result.  Too easy to replace what is used, and dry ferts are way cheap, easy to store.

Some 2 month cure BMxWW for ya my canine brother.


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## Elephant Man

Few new starts and looks as though I will keeping mums and dads on this one and doing clone seed run after clone seed run. :holysheep:

Thai Bagseed
C99 F3
Afghan Dream x Godbud
Congo
Big Sur Holy Weed

Same ole' reused soil.

Still waiting on a few more to show....


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## Elephant Man

I hope everyone had a most excellent Memorial day, for those in my country.  I hope the rest of you have a holiday soon.  :cool2:

All is well and just looking for a male so I can get this seed run on the road. :hubba:

Some random pix, there are a ton in there, and more just planted. :aok:

All done organically in regular dirt and ****....the only way I know how. :farm:

Much love to my old friends, and big hugs to my new ones. :welcome:


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## Elephant Man

Still looking for a good male plant so started these too.

Pix in order are:

Pursang Haze
Lebanese
Columbian Gold (2 pix)
Afghan (3 pix)
Mexican landrace (5 pix)

Thanks for stopping by.


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## Elephant Man

Alot has happened, I moved and now my weeds have escaped.


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## Mutt

WOW the second pic from the last is sexy brother.
Missed a post back in april..got about another month on the C99 F3's don't ya? Or gonna be one helluva monster in the backyard 

What males did ya end up getting? Too lazy to go back and look.


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## Elephant Man

Mutt said:
			
		

> WOW the second pic from the last is sexy brother.
> Missed a post back in april..got about another month on the C99 F3's don't ya? Or gonna be one helluva monster in the backyard
> 
> What males did ya end up getting? Too lazy to go back and look.


Damn....I forgot a pic of the 99's.  

All 4 of them were female and they have been moved to another location here to be pollinated via a friends male C99.  I'll get piccys for ya bro.

The 3 seeded Afghan Dream x Godbud in last post actually came down 3 days ago, of 4 seeds, I got one male (long gone).

Most of the plants in pics are Juicy Fruit x Champagne, there are 2 males planted with 6 females.

One plant outside is still unsexed, a Pursang haze....if it's male I'll have to clone and cull it.

My only Congo seed was fem, she's inside vegging and a clone is out with the JFxCh's.

2 Thai seed I popped so far are female. (vegging)

My only Big Sur Holy Weed is female. (vegging)

My only Lebanese bean went male. (vegging)

I have 2 Columbian Golds vegging, one male, one female.  

3 Afghan vegging, one is male.

2 Mexicans vegging, both female.

I think that's all of them :giggle:  bout' time to start more.  :hubba:

Have a great weekend everyone.  :heart:


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## Mutt

Hey take me a pic of the labanese and columbian males 
Curious on those 2. See what you came up with. :hubba:

would def. let those males have there way with a few of the females. 

You can keep the JFxCh gave me the noids....


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## Elephant Man

Mutt said:
			
		

> Hey take me a pic of the labanese and columbian males
> Curious on those 2. See what you came up with. :hubba:



First 2 pix bro, sorry it took so long.  

This is what I came up with, seed in the works:  :hubba:

Lebanese x Congo

Juicy Fruit x Champagne F2's
Juicy Fruit x Champagne x Congo
Juicy Fruit x Champagne x NL5xhaze

Columbian Gold F2's
Columbian Gold x Thai
Columbian Gold x Mexican
Columbian Gold x BSHW

Afghan x Cinderella 99
Afghan F2's

Have a great weekend everyone.  :farm:


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## Mutt

That columbian male got my eye 
Garden lookin great as always


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## DLtoker

Nice stuff pal!  Enjoy the OD.


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