# Hermie Seeds



## UKGr0wer (Nov 23, 2009)

are the seeds off a hermied plant alrite to grow


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## Heemhoff17 (Nov 23, 2009)

I'd imagine....we got these feminized seeds from some company and they ended up turning hermie.....BUT for every seed we planted and gave to my buddies to plant...23-25 turned female and were harvested female.


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## pcduck (Nov 23, 2009)

Plant a hermie grow a hermie. I would toss them out.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Nov 23, 2009)

UKGr0wer said:
			
		

> are the seeds off a hermied plant alrite to grow



Hermies procreate hermies.  _*Please, please, please through these seeds away!*_


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## Hick (Nov 23, 2009)

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49066&highlight=hermie+pollen
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41213&highlight=hermie+pollen
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=47058&highlight=hermie+pollen
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=582334#post582334


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## ozzydiodude (Nov 23, 2009)

no


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## umbra (Nov 23, 2009)

I know that some of my views are radical, but I've never been a mainstream type thinker. For the longest time I would agree that any hermi is a bad hermi. I have personally destroyed 100,000 of seeds for hermi traits. Nevertheless, it is a survival trait that is there to help insure that the species does not die off. With that said, eliminating it completely from the gene pool seems counter intuitive to the survival of a particular strain. And while there is an argument that the use of clones are a better way to preserve a strain, it was the down fall of the potato famine. Because without genetic diversity, a blight took every potato plant. The same is true of cannabis. I'm not saying that I have some great insight into the problem. Part of the problem are the breeders themselves. There has been a huge increase in the amount of feminized seed being produced. The techniques used to create fem seeds are a big part of the problem. There are a number of different ways to create female based pollen. But they are not all equal, as to what traits will be dominant and which will be recessive. When buying feminized seed, the buyer has no way of knowing how the seed was created, as to whether the technique is one that will produce hermi's or not.
I said that part of the problem with hermi's was the breeders, well part of the problem are the growers. Rather than growing 10 seeds, sexing them and keeping the best, many grower would rather pop 3 seeds and have them all be keepers. The breeders would not continue to produce fem seeds if no one would buy them. Without a doubt, there are different breeding philosophies. The understanding of botany and genetics are all over the place. The term "pollen chuckers", is a term given to some breeders would do not take the time to understand what they are breeding, or how to check their work. This is driven by money and a simplistic view of breeding. So many folks see some dank cannabis and say, " I can do that". Without really knowing what it takes to check and recheck true breeding males and females. To a large part, this is the way society in general has gone...instant gratification. When you don't take the time to grow out 100's and 100's of seeds, you can not even begin to judge what are dominant and what are recessive traits, let alone what is a true breeding plant.
I grow for myself. So if I have seeds from a hermi plant, they stay with me. I am not breeder, by choice. Yet I get what it's all about. There are some industry related problems that are exacerbating the hermi issues. If someone takes the time to work a strain, then releases it. Someone takes it, makes an F1 and calls it their own, why go to all the trouble and work to work the strain? Why is this only mj related and not all plants in general? Greed. Pure and simple.
So imo, while hermi's are a problem, they are also a defense mechanism that should not be denied. The solution in my mind is good breeding practices, where certain standards are maintained in respect to true breeding males and females. Where the hermi trait is a recessive trait rather than a dominant one. Now if only breeders got on board, and buyers as well, then the problem could be addressed. Until then I still haven't made up my mind.


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## UKGr0wer (Nov 23, 2009)

ok ill chuck them thanks


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## BlueNose (Nov 23, 2009)

umbra, I have to wholeheartedly agree. 
On a side note about genetics. I was watching a cat show (cats 101) on animal planet and they commented on a particular breed being very hardy since the cat with a striking feature (curled ears) was bred with random american shorthairs to give the new breed strong and diverse genetics. Turns out, the cat has no health problems unlike the majority of purebred animals. I'm not saying this is the case every time because obviously it's not but nature made the plant that way for a reason whether it suits us or not.


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## umbra (Nov 23, 2009)

Gonna Eat That? said:
			
		

> umbra, I have to wholeheartedly agree.
> On a side note about genetics. I was watching a cat show (cats 101) on animal planet and they commented on a particular breed being very hardy since the cat with a striking feature (curled ears) was bred with random american shorthairs to give the new breed strong and diverse genetics. Turns out, the cat has no health problems unlike the majority of purebred animals. I'm not saying this is the case every time because obviously it's not but nature made the plant that way for a reason whether it suits us or not.



I think we are in the minority on this one.


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## BlueNose (Nov 23, 2009)

lol, no thinking about it. We are definitely outnumbered.


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## pcduck (Nov 23, 2009)

> it is a survival trait that is there to help insure that the species does not die off.



I have just one question..who said it was a survival trait?


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## ozzydiodude (Nov 23, 2009)

Hey *Duck *I have seen survival trait as a natural trait in serveral book on genetic of Marijuana while I have been researching making Feminized seeds


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## Hick (Nov 24, 2009)

> The solution in my mind is good breeding practices, where certain standards are maintained in respect to true breeding males and females.


absolutely.. but retaining genetic diversity and breeding hermies, are IMO, not related. 


> Yet I get what it's all about


yes, I believe you do!


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## umbra (Nov 24, 2009)

Understanding cannabis as a plant is not so easy, in regards to genetics. Cannabis is a dioecious plant. It has a male plant and a female plant. But it also a monoecious plant, a plant with both a male and female contained on the same plant. This is after all what this discussion is about.Some hermaphrodites seem to be genetically determined (protogenous). That is, they naturally form flowers of both sexes given normal growing conditions. Possibly genes carried on the autosomes (the chromosomes other than the sex chromosomes) modify the normal sexual expression. Monoecious varieties have been developed by hemp breeders in order to ensure uniform harvests. Back in the 70's when I started smoking cannabis, all cannabis was seeded. Whether it was from open pollinations of male plants or from localized hemaphrodite hemp strains was impossible to tell.
To complicate the understanding of cannabis genetics is to look at the chromosomes. Cannabis is a diploid organism: its chromosomes come in pairs. Chromosomes are microscopic structures within the cells on which the genes are aligned. Cannabis has 10 pairs of chromosomes (n=10), for a total of 20 chromosomes (2m=20).One pair of chromosomes carries the primary genes that determine sex. These chromosomes are labelled either X or Y. Male plants have an XY pair of sex chromosomes. Females have XX. Each parent contribute one set of 10 chromosomes, which includes one sex chromosome, to the embryo. The sex chromosome carried by the female ovule can only be X. The one carried by pollen of the male plant may be either X or Y. From the pollen, the embryo has a 50/50 chance of receiving an X, likewise for Y; hance, male and female progeny appear in equal numbers (in humans, the sperm carries either an X or a Y chromosome.) Yet we know that cannabis can also be triploid, even polyploidal. Surely the use of external chemical interactions such as the use of colchicine, can and do cause mutations at the chromosomal level, giving rise to triploid or other polyploidal expressions.t is also possible that these particular are polyploid, which means they have more than the usual two sets of chromosomes. This kind of hermaphrodite may have XXY (triploid), or XXYY or XXXY (tetraploid) sex chromosomes.


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## umbra (Nov 24, 2009)

So this is my question...if cannabis is diploidal then how are hermi's possible? It can only be male or female, not both. And if hermi are poliploidal, can the same mutations apply to different chromosomal expressions, like trichome production, or yield, maturation, taste, smell, or internodal spacing?


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## HippyInEngland (Nov 24, 2009)

Interesting read Umbra, I found it quite fascinating 

All female MJ plants have the ability to self seed.

If you leave a stable strain and let it pass its 'ideal', it will self induce pollen sacks to try to keep its gene's from dying.

A female grows for 1 reason, to produce seed, we stop that from happening, we also harvest before the said stable strains venture to self seed.

In my eyes a hermie is a plant with weak or a deformed DNA structure where instead of waiting to the point of over mature self seeding, its damaged or weak DNA instructions cause the plant to decide to self seed early.

These are the problem genetics that we remove, but in the wild they are left to their own means and will pollinate other females as well as itself.

The resulting seeds will carry the trait to self seed early in the set seeds.

Nature is quite ingenious, it is not a flaw in hermie plants, it is nature giving the plants a better chance of seeding itself instead of waiting to be pollinated.

Everything since life first began on Earth has evolved into a progressively more adaptable life where its aim is to be as good as it can get to procreate a better more advantageous offspring.

Just my thoughts.

eace:


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## umbra (Nov 24, 2009)

HippyInEngland said:
			
		

> Interesting read Umbra, I found it quite fascinating
> 
> All female MJ plants have the ability to self seed.
> 
> ...



Yep. But hermi's may also be the key to unlocking the cannabis genome. Because if it is a dioploid and hermi's are from the coupling of the other non sex chromosomes, then what other couplings unlock trichome production? Or if it is a polyploid, and it has more than 2 chromosomes, then what other combinations express other genetic characteristics?


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## HippyInEngland (Nov 24, 2009)

We used to walk on all 4's

I still do after too many beers 

Somewhere down our DNA growth, homo sapiens had a Polyploidy and we changed direction from all 4's to standing upright.

There has to be a connection with plant growth over time as well.

Interesting theory.

eace:


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## the chef (Nov 24, 2009)

But is there a way to isolate and strenghen the valuable genetics and eradicate the male gene?


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## HippyInEngland (Nov 24, 2009)

the chef said:
			
		

> But is there a way to isolate and strenghen the valuable genetics and eradicate the male gene?


 
hXXp://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_amazon/index.html

eace:


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## umbra (Nov 24, 2009)

HippyInEngland said:
			
		

> hXXp://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/previous_seasons/case_amazon/index.html
> 
> eace:



self extinction?


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## the chef (Nov 24, 2009)

A dead subject eh?


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## umbra (Nov 24, 2009)

the chef said:
			
		

> A dead subject eh?


I don't think it is a dead subject, I just don't have an answer


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## the chef (Nov 24, 2009)

no i meant the link


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## umbra (Nov 24, 2009)

no the link is good, but I had to play with it. History channel story of a race of Amazon women. Just HIE being funny


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## HippyInEngland (Nov 24, 2009)

Its fun to walk a winding road sometimes, we all still end up in the same place 

eace:


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## the chef (Nov 24, 2009)

Hie...i smoke, dang man that went straight over my head.LOL. The amazon women were cool.


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## Alistair (Nov 24, 2009)

What if the only reason a plant hermies is because of a grower's mistake, such as allowing light leaks?  Does that mean that the plant had bad genetics, and therefore the seeds should be tossed?  I'm not talking about feminized seeds, but rather, any plant, any strain.


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## Hick (Nov 25, 2009)

Alistair Young said:
			
		

> What if the only reason a plant hermies is because of a grower's mistake, such as allowing light leaks?  Does that mean that the plant had bad genetics, and therefore the seeds should be tossed?  I'm not talking about feminized seeds, but rather, any plant, any strain.



"IMHO".. most certainly. If the plant hermies under light leak stress, it is not a suitable candidate for further procreation. Those seeds will _likely_, be even _more_ prone to hermie because in essence, you have "selectively bred" FOR that characteristic/trait ...


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## pcduck (Nov 25, 2009)

I have another question if _they_ say it is a survival trait, why do they not all do this?

I have forgotten about OD plants that have gone past maturity that did not have this survival trait.


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## Hick (Nov 25, 2009)

IMO.. "again"..  .. it is called a 'survival trait' as a form of _"lessening the negativity of poor, less desirable genetics"_ ..


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## umbra (Nov 25, 2009)

pcduck said:
			
		

> I have another question if _they_ say it is a survival trait, why do they not all do this?
> 
> I have forgotten about OD plants that have gone past maturity that did not have this survival trait.



The funny thing is definitive answers don't exist, only speculation. However, there are some good theories. IMO, it takes more than just a dominant gene for all types of genetic expression. In my case, I did a bunch of purple strains and not one turned purple. I later regen'd a gorilla grape and added ice water as a flush the last 2 weeks, and it sure turned purple. In this case it took more than just a purple gene, it took the right environmental conditions as well. Its just a theory...now I'll be quiet.:hubba:


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## Hick (Nov 25, 2009)

I would agree, "environment" is a crucial factor in allowing certain traits/characteristics to express themselves. "BUT".. I have a problem with inducing 'color' by lowering temperatures. "IMO", it is essentially inhibiting the utilization of nutrients, and is actually expressing a nutrient defficiency, in "most" cases.


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## the chef (Nov 25, 2009)

IMO....just felt like typing that


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## umbra (Nov 25, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> I would agree, "environment" is a crucial factor in allowing certain traits/characteristics to express themselves. "BUT".. I have a problem with inducing 'color' by lowering temperatures. "IMO", it is essentially inhibiting the utilization of nutrients, and is actually expressing a nutrient defficiency, in "most" cases.



I concur


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