# is ebb and flow competatively effective ?



## gopot

is ebb and flow competatively effective with most other hydro systems? I have the chance to score sore really good used white 4*8  tables for almost nothing but is ebb and flow anywhere as productive as other hydro systems?


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## zem

it is my favourite system, using growrock and a good control res, when done right, eliminates most if not all root related problems, as the plants are growing in air, I strongly recommend it, personally prefer it over DWC because it needs less equipment and tubing, no airstones less humidity less things that can go wrong, it is very easily automated with a simple timer, recycling is also very easy and is very clean unlike coco or soil.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Unlike Zem, I tried ebb and flo, but did not have the success with it that I have with DWC.  I have no idea why mine did not do well, but I did go back to DWC, as that was easier and more successful for me. I think it depends on the grower--not all methods work equally well for all people.  Do you have the room, the lights, and the time to run multiple 4 x 8 tables?


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## Hushpuppy

I agree with THG on the effectiveness of "ebb n flo" or any of the hydro methods really depending on the individual. All of the "standard" hydro methods are very effective and under the correct conditions, totally competitive with other methods for yield and ease of use.

I myself prefer my own method, which I devised by hybridizing several different methods. I customized my grow to fit my space, local environment, and personal preference of how my body allows me to work. 

I say look carefully at your space and local environmental conditions, your personal likes and physical abilities to care for and clean your system, and talk to those like Zem who use this method and make sure that it will fit your needs. But then keep your mind open as you will discover ways to either tweak the given system to better match what serves you best, or completely change things like I did with mine to get it optimized to your unique environment. 

Don't be afraid to try it out if it looks like it will work for you. But also don't lock in on a single method. Allow yourself to try different adjustments or changes if you aren't satisfied with the results. However, don't get impatient and jump from method to method. And absolutely don't try to make changes in the middle of a grow unless the grow is seriously struggling. Only make changes when starting the next run not during the run as that can derail the whole run and give you bad information for optimizing the next grow. Good luck, and get ready for some fun


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## Keef

I'm like Hushpuppy --Got my own way to grow weed !-- Not quite aero -- Not quite DWC !-- This what I do ! I'm not a good photographer! 

View attachment 20160616_123117.jpg


View attachment 20160616_153533.jpg


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## The Hemp Goddess

Keef, that looks like a typical aero setup to me....what makes it "not quite aero" ?


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## WeedHopper

:yeahthat:


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## Keef

THG --- Hopper ---Those roots quickly reach the nute water underneath where the bubbler lives --- After that the top 8" or so of the roots get sprayed the rest are floating around !--- Lost power for 8 hours once and ran my bubblers thru an DC/AC inverter off a battery !-- No problem !--but I wouldn't want to go any longer !---I run the filtered pumps 15 on/15 off filter keep the intake of the pump from eating the roots and the sprayers from plugging  up ! --Besides spraying the roots it aerates the nute water as well !--- The bubbler is mostly for air exchange in the box ! --So the top 8 " or so of roots is aero and anything below that is DWC! !


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## Keef

In true aero doesn't it spray the roots with nute solution which then drains away to a res. Then sprayed again !---All I know is I copied that first aerocloner on a larger scale and the system works no matter what it's called and I'm O.K.  with that !


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## Hushpuppy

:aok: You find what works for you and your situation  My system is RDWC with top-feed into coco coir/pearlite filled smartpots that sit in the large 12"dia baskets. I love hybridizing, you get the best of all worlds when you get the right balance.


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## sopappy

zem said:


> it is my favourite system, using growrock and a good control res, when done right, eliminates most if not all root related problems, as the plants are growing in air, I strongly recommend it, personally prefer it over DWC because it needs less equipment and tubing, no airstones less humidity less things that can go wrong, it is very easily automated with a simple timer, recycling is also very easy and is very clean unlike coco or soil.



This rings true for me too. Soil feels good but it's messy. First time out with RDWC I got pythium, I also couldn't settle on how to use the drip lines, and I'd knock them out or they'd slip and spills, pain in the ***. Tiny rez is a disadvantage too, lots of fussing.
but this Ebb&Flow, I'm just starting a new 2x4 table... it's elegant.
The line about the water rising and pushing the old oxygen out and then draining and pulling in fresh oxygen got me. I'm even converting my 5 gal buckets to Ebb&Flow.
As for yields, hahaha, not my dept, I kinda suck at growing

I did some googling on other forums and the consensus seems to be that RDWC has the edge in yield
disappointing, seems it's better that the roots hang in water than air.


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## sopappy

Keef said:


> In true aero doesn't it spray the roots with nute solution which then drains away to a res. Then sprayed again !---All I know is I copied that first aerocloner on a larger scale and the system works no matter what it's called and I'm O.K.  with that !



I was looking into this aero stuff and got so friggin' deep into it that I was even researching orifice sizes, the parts list was getting awful but it was fascinating (being stoned is not an advantage here) and I felt like a kid with mecano set.
I got too freaked out about power failures though.
Neat how your hybrid solves that with bubblers on battery back-up.


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## WeedHopper

I love DWC,,,THG and Andy42 got me hooked back in 2008.


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## DirtyDiana

Keef & I do grow aeroponically, but the plants sit over the reservoir & sometimes their roots reach into the water.   It has worked well for us.


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## Hushpuppy

Aeroponics is a solid method. The only problem with certain systems like aeroponics is making sure your pots and containers will hold the weight of flowering plants as they can get quite heavy.


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## zem

the aero misters are known to get clogged often, and then you need a relatively powerful pump which means more power usage. When i chose ebb and flow, i wanted the roots to grow in air similar to aero, and growrocks provide this environment. It baffles me whenever i hear good growers say that it does not work for them, in my case, everything that i put in that system, be it weed or even veggies, grows great.


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## Hushpuppy

That is the funny thing about grow methods. One method can work flawlessly for one person and fail miserably for another (in similar conditions). I think its because there are so many variables to contend with that someone who isn't highly experienced can easily forget to account for this myriad of variables that are present, and themselves vary depending on the grow method used.

I know that I have used similar methods under similar conditions and couldn't understand why they failed until I found the method that worked, and discovered that there were a few variables that I forgot to account for, which led to the failures, ie, cloning methods. :doh:

But spray valves are definitely bad for clogging up, even with the best of nutrients. The reason is often due to pressure causing changes in the solution which lead to minerals precipitating out of the solution and collecting around the sprayer valves. Pressure and temp changes can definitely affect the way solids dissolve in water, and stay dissolved or precipitate out.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> That is the funny thing about grow methods. One method can work flawlessly for one person and fail miserably for another (in similar conditions). I think its because there are so many variables to contend with that someone who isn't highly experienced can easily forget to account for this myriad of variables that are present, and themselves vary depending on the grow method used.
> 
> I know that I have used similar methods under similar conditions and couldn't understand why they failed until I found the method that worked, and discovered that there were a few variables that I forgot to account for, which led to the failures, ie, cloning methods. :doh:
> 
> But spray valves are definitely bad for clogging up, even with the best of nutrients. The reason is often due to pressure causing changes in the solution which lead to minerals precipitating out of the solution and collecting around the sprayer valves. Pressure and temp changes can definitely affect the way solids dissolve in water, and stay dissolved or precipitate out.



Ya hit the nail squarely on the head there,HP... it's a game of DETAILS
and DYNAMIC! Things are growing, things change EVERY day
fascinating, all I do is read and I still flounder hahaha


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## sopappy

zem said:


> the aero misters are known to get clogged often, and then you need a relatively powerful pump which means more power usage. When i chose ebb and flow, i wanted the roots to grow in air similar to aero, and growrocks provide this environment. It baffles me whenever i hear good growers say that it does not work for them, in my case, everything that i put in that system, be it weed or even veggies, grows great.



I've just started ebbing & flowing and something about it I like, it's a neat hybrid of aero and DWC, 
I'm excited about it and love the automation stuff I must confess
Please pop by and keep an eye on things, I've read a lot but I still screw things up, I like to post what I'm doing and folks catch my gaffs often 

I'm trying some Moringa in pots with dirt, tempted to stick one in a bucket


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## Keef

We use a filtered 396 gph pump for our aero boxes !-- I feel ya on the plugged micro sprayers but since I switched to a filtered pump I have not had a single plugged micro sprayer ! -- In my opinion heat was a far worse problem !-- My res. temp hits 80 or above I get white slime !---- Small cloners are the worst !-- I run my pumps 15on/15 off !---- I run about 12 gallons in my 35 gallon boxes and my Temps stay in the mid 70's !---The 3 problems I had to solve in aero were sprayers hitting the lid just right and leaking out --- Caulked my lids !--Problem solved !-- Plugged microsprayers --Filter fixed it !-- and Heat !-- More water can obsorb more heat --started at 6 gallons ---12 gallons or more and the temp stays down !--


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## sopappy

zem said:


> it is my favourite system, using growrock and a good control res, when done right, eliminates most if not all root related problems, as the plants are growing in air, I strongly recommend it, personally prefer it over DWC because it needs less equipment and tubing, no airstones less humidity less things that can go wrong, it is very easily automated with a simple timer, recycling is also very easy and is very clean unlike coco or soil.



You know what bugs me about E&F ?
That big rez sitting there bubbling and being cooled and no roots in there eating except for a drenching every 2 hours or so... seems such a waste...
I'm trying a hybrid:
I want to recirculate (RDWC) 2 inches below the pots and every couple hours flood to the neck and back down again (E&F)
Maybe once a day empty the tray completely but most of the time, some roots are in water.

nutty?

maybe not. I SWEAR I noticed a difference *overnight *when I started ebb & flo every half hour with plant tray (5" air for roots below pot)
and rez both being bubbled

4 minutes to fill to an inch up the pot, drains in 10 , roots sit in air maybe 15 minutes before it floods again


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## DirtyDiana

Just have to keep plugging away til you hit gold--  we're probably only bronze right now!


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## zem

sopappy said:


> You know what bugs me about E&F ?
> That big rez sitting there bubbling and being cooled and no roots in there eating except for a drenching every 2 hours or so... seems such a waste...
> I'm trying a hybrid:
> I want to recirculate (RDWC) 2 inches below the pots and every couple hours flood to the neck and back down again (E&F)
> Maybe once a day empty the tray completely but most of the time, some roots are in water.
> 
> nutty?



remove the bubbler and the cooler altogether. all that you need is a little bit of circulation when you flood,  make the overflow 4"+ above water level so that the falling water breaks the surface some. I place my res outside the chamber not exposed to the lights' heat. i flood every 2 hours when lights are on change every couple of weeks but that is dependent on grower and res size.


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## Hushpuppy

Zem, you don't bubble your rez solution?


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## sopappy

zem said:


> remove the bubbler and the cooler altogether. all that you need is a little bit of circulation when you flood,  make the overflow 4"+ above water level so that the falling water breaks the surface some. I place my res outside the chamber not exposed to the lights' heat. i flood every 2 hours when lights are on change every couple of weeks but that is dependent on grower and res size.



no way, I've had pythium. My water temps never exceed 20.5 now
and you can't have too many bubblers
I do one flood in the middle of the night cycle


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## zem

Hushpuppy said:


> Zem, you don't bubble your rez solution?



nope, i have 2 res's in my growroom about 200liters each, and 3 res's in my greenhouse about 500liters each, i have been doing this for a while, a bubbler in this system is useless, i even thought it helped the larvae to flourish, every couple hours the water is recirculated, I tried to let them catch pythium or any root disease in that system but failed. I even let them grow in growrocks that were barely cleaned from previous grows' roots, only had the rootball removed, with no ill effect


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## sopappy

zem said:


> nope, i have 2 res's in my growroom about 200liters each, and 3 res's in my greenhouse about 500liters each, i have been doing this for a while, a bubbler in this system is useless, i even thought it helped the larvae to flourish, every couple hours the water is recirculated, I tried to let them catch pythium or any root disease in that system but failed. I even let them grow in growrocks that were barely cleaned from previous grows' roots, only had the rootball removed, with no ill effect



the common denominator seems to be those big reservoirs. 
So maybe I don't need bubblers and maybe I don't need cooling,
you didn't mention your temps, Zem

How often do you flood and drain? Is that what you mean by recirculating?
There's no recirculation in ebb and flow, how are you doing that?
extra pumps?
I found the two hour do nothing period between flows was driving me crazy
so I added pumps and level detectors to mimic RDWC during the lights on (level to a couple inches below pots, then both pumps run) 
with a complete fill and drain every 2 hours (except during sleep)

What's the opposite of Keep It Simple Stupid?


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## zem

yes i recirculate every time i flood and drain, that is done by using and overflow hole at which the water level stops rising and flows back to the main res which is placed below so gravity takes care of the rest and creates a waterfall effect. i circulate the water only a minute or 2, then timer shuts off and the whole thing drains by gravity.


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## sopappy

zem said:


> yes i recirculate every time i flood and drain, that is done by using and overflow hole at which the water level stops rising and flows back to the main res which is placed below so gravity takes care of the rest and creates a waterfall effect. i circulate the water only a minute or 2, then timer shuts off and the whole thing drains by gravity.



And you do that every two hours? So, for 2 hours the roots sit there and do nothing or certainly much less than they'd do in solution.
Bugs me too much, I'm changing back to RDWC, 
water to level bottom row of hydroton, constant circulation
but I'm sticking with the foam


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## zem

growrocks do wick water and they remain wet for more tghan 2 hours, so the roots are feeding. RDWC is a DWC with a control res


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## sopappy

zem said:


> growrocks do wick water and they remain wet for more tghan 2 hours, so the roots are feeding. RDWC is a DWC with a control res



oh, I see now, your net pots sit on the table... my net pots sit in holes that allow some of the roots to hang in the air between flows.
The roots that hang in air become corded (to hold up the roots in the water)
Some say it's just wasted space.


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## Hushpuppy

That's interesting Zem. I guess the water absorbes enough oxygen from the air when the flood system is running the water up to the plants on the tables.:aok:


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## zem

Hushpuppy said:


> That's interesting Zem. I guess the water absorbes enough oxygen from the air when the flood system is running the water up to the plants on the tables.:aok:



hush i have another theory, i think that the stagnant water that contains pathogens will not affect the roots in growrocks because they are too airy for any root disease to grow. i say that because i have gone for a few runs with no circulation at all and did not notice a difference.


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## Hushpuppy

That's surprising. I would have to aerate my rez regardless. I couldn't stand the idea of not aerating, but if it works for you, that's one less thing to worry about tending to


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## sopappy

in my opinion, RDWC kicks the pants off ebb & flo, 
is anything even happening during the ebb cycle? such a waste, 
all I noticed was saving electricity with no stones, 
growth was UNremarkable, but once they started sitting in bubbled water again, the plants exploded

My exercise wasn't a total waste though, I have big rezs now and that helps with temps and pH


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## zem

Sopappy, your plants exploded not from the bubbling water but from the correct nute mix. They consistently explode in my ebb and flow. Anyway, not all systems are suitable for all growers, I can't tell why this happened with you, but there must be a reason, other than ebb and flow. btw, i tried dwc several runs and plants exploded equally...


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## Hushpuppy

There should be very little difference in plants grown in these 2 hydro setups. There are always variations that can change the way it must be done but if both systems are dialed in with ALL other variables being the same, the 2 methods should yield the same. It really comes down to the way the person does it, their particular environment, nute regimen, etc. The devil is always in the details.


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## sopappy

zem said:


> Sopappy, your plants exploded not from the bubbling water but from the correct nute mix. They consistently explode in my ebb and flow. Anyway, not all systems are suitable for all growers, I can't tell why this happened with you, but there must be a reason, other than ebb and flow. btw, i tried dwc several runs and plants exploded equally...



Could be, Zem. It's one of the conundrums of growing, too many variables.
I don't think it was nutes though, I'm weaker than the label.
The tray had at least 3 non-perfomers and I increased the time the roots were under water and put bubblers in the upper tray. 
I did not recognize the plant tonight, 2 full days, doubled in girth I swear,
I wanted to take pictures, but kept putting it off.
(may very well just be part of the grow cycle and I'm noticing more now after a few grows.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> There should be very little difference in plants grown in these 2 hydro setups. There are always variations that can change the way it must be done but if both systems are dialed in with ALL other variables being the same, the 2 methods should yield the same. It really comes down to the way the person does it, their particular environment, nute regimen, etc. The devil is always in the details.



You just made me realize I wasn't really doing ebb and flow, I didn't have net pots sitting in a tray, I had a tray sitting in a reservoir, lots of room below the net pots. in ebb & flow, I think the roots are always supposed to be in a medium. 
It bothered me having the roots sitting in the air between flows....
so I filled the air with water
and didn't want to drown them so added the bubblers
the water still ebbs and flows, it's just bubbling & re-circulating too


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## sopappy

zem said:


> growrocks do wick water and they remain wet for more tghan 2 hours, so the roots are feeding. RDWC is a DWC with a control res



oh yah, the medium, forgot about that.

My conclusion is that the only thing that differentiates ebb & flow from RDWC (or DWC) is the way the roots get oxygen, one is with bubbles in circulating or stagnant water
and the other is sitting in the air with the added bonus of the rising and falling water level drawing out the old and sucking in the new.

Your system is simple and elegant, mine has too many pumps, level sensors, and bubblers all costing me more money but I like railway train sets too.


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## Hushpuppy

If you love to tinker? Hydro is the way to go. You can tinker and adjust, and experiment, and change, and monitor, and mix up methods  it can be a lot of fun, as long as they are yielding decent at least.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> If you love to tinker? Hydro is the way to go. You can tinker and adjust, and experiment, and change, and monitor, and mix up methods  it can be a lot of fun, as long as they are yielding decent at least.



I love / hate home automation. My grow has literally taken over my panel 

Just thought of the coil cooling thing, I should report that IT SUCKS, uses waaaay too much water to cool one degree, I'm using WH tip re frozen bottles and using the coils as back-up. 
I wonder how much it costs to freeze water.

my yields were only great the first two under incandescent, I've been playing catch-up ever since with these LEDs. Barking up the wrong tree as it were 
but they were so damn hot

so I'm looking for a boost from hydro and probably reading too much, my RDWC buckets were okay and I'm still mopping up spills


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## sopappy

blah blah blah
I was trying to adjust pH last night, little bits at a time, down, 
then... it just stopped changing, would decrease no more, 1 Ml, nuthin, 1 mL nuthin;, ...no matter what I added no change, I'm not good with anger and wanted to dump the dam jug in there but just skulked off
preparing for a rez change :-(
what the heck?


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## zem

The good grows were under hps and not incandescent i assume, if the LEDs are not growing good plants, then the fertilizing or the change of medium and system will not help that much. Light is the primary source of energy for the plants. under LED plants needs much less ferts like 1/2 the dose.
Your PH not going down further sounds as if your meter is not reading lower measurements. try calibrating it


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## sopappy

zem said:


> The good grows were under hps and not incandescent i assume, if the LEDs are not growing good plants, then the fertilizing or the change of medium and system will not help that much. Light is the primary source of energy for the plants. under LED plants needs much less ferts like 1/2 the dose.
> Your PH not going down further sounds as if your meter is not reading lower measurements. try calibrating it



I learn everything the hard way, Zem. Nail. Head. When I saw shitty results with LED, I tried EVERYTHING hoping the LEDs were gud enuff.
They're not.

Meter reads vinegar at 4
maybe I was too stoned, I did a rez change.

Yes, I meant HPS and MH, that's how I started
and I forgot about the LEDs feeding the plant again
if my ppms are too high, is it like a baby not opening their mouth?
I'll halve the label dosage, thanks!


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## sopappy

WeedHopper said:


> I love DWC,,,THG and Andy42 got me hooked back in 2008.



I thought THG gave up on hydro on account of the water spills etc
it can be pretty risky with all the electrical (especially if yer DIY rike me)

You mentioned frozen water bottle rez cooling
I'm changing bottles every 3 hours and this sure ain't Texas
what temp do you keep your rez below?


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## WeedHopper

I tried to keep my solution as close to 75 as i could,,,and that wasnt easy in Flofida. Lol
As for THG giving up on hydro,,,thats the 1st ive heard that. The cooler the temps the whiter the roots is what i seen in my DWC grows. Also light leaks into your rez can kick roots ***.


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## zem

Sopappy if you were giving full strength under LED then you were probably burning them.it will require more innovation to convince me to go the LED route, good luck


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## sopappy

WeedHopper said:


> I tried to keep my solution as close to 75 as i could,,,and that wasnt easy in Flofida. Lol
> As for THG giving up on hydro,,,thats the 1st ive heard that. The cooler the temps the whiter the roots is what i seen in my DWC grows. Also light leaks into your rez can kick roots ***.



ahah! 75! wow, I've been trying to maintain 68 
nice white roots though, 
I got pythium first go and went off the deep end, 
I think I can dial it back, thanks


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## sopappy

zem said:


> Sopappy if you were giving full strength under LED then you were probably burning them.it will require more innovation to convince me to go the LED route, good luck



Can you see that in the plants? like nute burn?
I'm thinking they look great and healthy and growing great
(but I'm at full nutes by the label)

yup, I miss my HPS and MH 

I liked your foam idea re seeds and bought some foam at HD
It floats hahahahaha
(you shudda seen the look on my face)

I'm still trying it, just weighted down the pots
I'm ebbing and flowing these ones


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## WeedHopper

70 is a great temp to maintain,,but almost impossible in florida without a chiller. My frozen water bottles did pretty good,,but a chiller would have been awesome. Now ive hreard that flood and drain solution temps can be higher,,but i dont know myself personally, ,cause i never used anything but DWC or Dirt.


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## sopappy

WeedHopper said:


> 70 is a great temp to maintain,,but almost impossible in florida without a chiller. My frozen water bottles did pretty good,,but a chiller would have been awesome. Now ive hreard that flood and drain solution temps can be higher,,but i dont know myself personally, ,cause i never used anything but DWC or Dirt.



I did read that if the rez temps are lowish, the plant can tolerate higher ambient temperatures... I wish I'd known that when i had my HPS/MH

Comforting to hear no pythium at 75, do you H2O2 ?


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## WeedHopper

I have only used h202 when i had a light leak in my rez.
75 did not give me the whitest roots possible, ,but they were okay,and my girls did pretty good. Would have done even better if i could have kept my solution temps closer to 68,,thats for sure. But thats just not always possible without the proper equipment, such as a chiller.


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## Hushpuppy

I am fighting with that right now with mine. It has been so hot and humid here in NC its ridiculous. I have a portable AC unit that runs 24/7 but it gets so hot that I cant keep the veg room from topping out at 86. It does come back down at night to 75f and that is when the flowering girls are on. But my rez water goes from 81f in the afternoon back down to 71f at night (after I put 4 frozen 2ltr bottles of water in it). I have it circulating on a 15min/1hr cycle and that allows it to cool the rez before the evening watering. I haven't had any issues so far but I am keeping a close watch on it. I use hygrozyme in my flowering and that seems to protect the plants from water issues.


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## zem

I have an idea that i would like to try and that is using a regular old fridge, drill a hole in its outer body insert a hose in it place it like a coil inside then it goes back to the res, use a pump to circulate the solution, if it gets too cold, it could be put on timer. a fridge in a growroom is very useful for bud storage as well. My main concern would be to not overload the fridge capacity, as the best way to break a fridge is to leave it open, I would offset that by filling the whole space with water bottles and never opening it, and good insulation for the res and hoses. Automation is key for me to succeed, if I had to change frozen bottles every day, I can guarantee that I will fail to do that. That is why I used to change systems from DWC to flood and drain depending on season. I guess that if I could efficiently cool the res in hot weather, I would not have to switch. Is it a crazy idea?


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## WeedHopper

Use a mini fridge.


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## sopappy

zem said:


> I have an idea that i would like to try and that is using a regular old fridge, drill a hole in its outer body insert a hose in it place it like a coil inside then it goes back to the res, use a pump to circulate the solution, if it gets too cold, it could be put on timer. a fridge in a growroom is very useful for bud storage as well. My main concern would be to not overload the fridge capacity, as the best way to break a fridge is to leave it open, I would offset that by filling the whole space with water bottles and never opening it, and good insulation for the res and hoses. Automation is key for me to succeed, if I had to change frozen bottles every day, I can guarantee that I will fail to do that. That is why I used to change systems from DWC to flood and drain depending on season. I guess that if I could efficiently cool the res in hot weather, I would not have to switch. Is it a crazy idea?



yup 
save up for a chiller, 
check my grows to see what pissing around re-inventing the wheel leads to


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## sopappy

zem said:


> I have an idea that i would like to try and that is using a regular old fridge, drill a hole in its outer body insert a hose in it place it like a coil inside then it goes back to the res, use a pump to circulate the solution, if it gets too cold, it could be put on timer. a fridge in a growroom is very useful for bud storage as well. My main concern would be to not overload the fridge capacity, as the best way to break a fridge is to leave it open, I would offset that by filling the whole space with water bottles and never opening it, and good insulation for the res and hoses. Automation is key for me to succeed, if I had to change frozen bottles every day, I can guarantee that I will fail to do that. That is why I used to change systems from DWC to flood and drain depending on season. I guess that if I could efficiently cool the res in hot weather, I would not have to switch. Is it a crazy idea?



I'm using coils in my rez and am unimpressed but I'm just running cold ground water through them. Different animal.
I've seen some decent DIY stuff on youtube done with mini fridges and a dehumidifier too I think
I have two 100L tanks and find frozen bottles efficient.
Freezer packed is great, fridge packed not so much, works harder
or is it the other way around?


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## zem

I thought it was supposed to be filled up both fridge and freezer just leaving enough space to breathe. I already have a spare fridge at hand that could be used, that is why i am considering this


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## Gooch

well i will add my .02 I run an ebb and flow bucket within a bucket, I have nothing but success with the system the way i run it. I think more often then not the competitiveness is not a fair comparison as each grower has their own level of knowledge. I personally have zero luck with any type of DWC system or soil/soilless as it requires you to pay closer attention to everything. I needed a system that was a setit and watch it go, as i work 12-14 hours a day i am not able to tend to them constantly and need things done automagically. I average around 100g/plant which isnt great for quantity but i only care about quality and from others growers opinions the quality is off the charts. My system is ideal for the lazy grower 

View attachment CM160126-23245601.jpg


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## WeedHopper

DWC for me was an easy way to grow and very clean. Plants can get fixed quickly ,,,or you can screw them up quickly. Lol
The good thing is you can most the time reverse your mistake and save the plant,,,where in dirt it can die before you get it fixed because of uptake time. Although i never had much trouble in dirt eather. Eather way my favorite is DWC.


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## Hushpuppy

*Zem*: you could do that. what you would need to do though is get a large container. Maybe even use a 5gal bucket and make a shelf that would hold it. Have that and little else in the fridge as it works off air circulation. You would then just route 2 hoses to that bucket. One hose would be a return and the other would connect to your circulating pump.

Then you would need to get about 4'-6' copper tube that will fit just inside the hose(I used 1/2" copper tube) so that it can be clamped tightly onto the copper tube. before you connect anything, you would gently make small bends in your tube (which will probably come in a coil already. Don't get copper pipe, that has thicker wall and won't bend easy). You want to form a coil with the copper tube so that it will fit inside your rez and will have both ends facing the same direction (don't get too fast when bending or you will crimp it). this will set in the rez, submerged in solution, with the two hoses connected to it. 

This will keep your nute solution and chiller water separate, while the copper tube will allow the heat to transfer to the cold water that you will circulate continuously. This will work and it won't run the fridge to death(a small fridge may not be able to keep up but not sure). I used to have a chiller that worked on the same principal until LEO decided to take it. I used a nice, well insulated cooler for my cold water reservoir, for you the fridge with the 5gal bucket will be your cold water reservoir(you must have the cold water reservoir to prevent the fridge from running constantly and it will cool the Rez solution better. As long as you can stay between 65-72f in your rez then yer golden.


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## Hushpuppy

Here is what mine looked like with the chiller and cold water reservoir being first pic:
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=192334&stc=1&d=1342580500
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=192335&stc=1&d=1342580500


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## zem

That is cool HP! I think that I will have something similar by next summer, thanks


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> *Zem*: you could do that. what you would need to do though is get a large container. Maybe even use a 5gal bucket and make a shelf that would hold it. Have that and little else in the fridge as it works off air circulation. You would then just route 2 hoses to that bucket. One hose would be a return and the other would connect to your circulating pump.
> 
> Then you would need to get about 4'-6' copper tube that will fit just inside the hose(I used 1/2" copper tube) so that it can be clamped tightly onto the copper tube. before you connect anything, you would gently make small bends in your tube (which will probably come in a coil already. Don't get copper pipe, that has thicker wall and won't bend easy). You want to form a coil with the copper tube so that it will fit inside your rez and will have both ends facing the same direction (don't get too fast when bending or you will crimp it). this will set in the rez, submerged in solution, with the two hoses connected to it.
> 
> This will keep your nute solution and chiller water separate, while the copper tube will allow the heat to transfer to the cold water that you will circulate continuously. This will work and it won't run the fridge to death(a small fridge may not be able to keep up but not sure). I used to have a chiller that worked on the same principal until LEO decided to take it. I used a nice, well insulated cooler for my cold water reservoir, for you the fridge with the 5gal bucket will be your cold water reservoir(you must have the cold water reservoir to prevent the fridge from running constantly and it will cool the Rez solution better. As long as you can stay between 65-72f in your rez then yer golden.



I used stainless steel instead of copper. Something about copper in solution isn't good but damned if I can remember.
I also found the heat transfer pretty sad, I'd run cold water through the coil and it took a stupid amount of water to cool.
I bet they'd work better in your fridge idea though, gonna try that.


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## Hushpuppy

Yeah you don't want to use stainless as stainless is a poor conductor of heat energy. I never had any problems with the copper tube as long as I kept my pH ok. You might would get a small amount of copper releasing into the water but it wouldn't be enough to hurt anything unless the pH was really low like around 3.0


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## Hushpuppy

Zem, let me know if you need any ideas on it.


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> Yeah you don't want to use stainless as stainless is a poor conductor of heat energy. I never had any problems with the copper tube as long as I kept my pH ok. You might would get a small amount of copper releasing into the water but it wouldn't be enough to hurt anything unless the pH was really low like around 3.0



so I could have used a wort cooler, hahaha, I ordered the ss tube from China
and bent it myself, I was so proud hahaha, horribly ineffecient
but my darn fridge compressor is always going with all those frozen jugs, 
water is still cheaper than electricity, I wonder


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## sopappy

Hushpuppy said:


> *Zem*: you could do that. what you would need to do though is get a large container. Maybe even use a 5gal bucket and make a shelf that would hold it. Have that and little else in the fridge as it works off air circulation. You would then just route 2 hoses to that bucket. One hose would be a return and the other would connect to your circulating pump.
> 
> Then you would need to get about 4'-6' copper tube that will fit just inside the hose(I used 1/2" copper tube) so that it can be clamped tightly onto the copper tube. before you connect anything, you would gently make small bends in your tube (which will probably come in a coil already. Don't get copper pipe, that has thicker wall and won't bend easy). You want to form a coil with the copper tube so that it will fit inside your rez and will have both ends facing the same direction (don't get too fast when bending or you will crimp it). this will set in the rez, submerged in solution, with the two hoses connected to it.
> 
> This will keep your nute solution and chiller water separate, while the copper tube will allow the heat to transfer to the cold water that you will circulate continuously. This will work and it won't run the fridge to death(a small fridge may not be able to keep up but not sure). I used to have a chiller that worked on the same principal until LEO decided to take it. I used a nice, well insulated cooler for my cold water reservoir, for you the fridge with the 5gal bucket will be your cold water reservoir(you must have the cold water reservoir to prevent the fridge from running constantly and it will cool the Rez solution better. As long as you can stay between 65-72f in your rez then yer golden.



Why not just circulate your rez water through that bucket in the fridge?


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## zem

Hushpuppy said:


> Zem, let me know if you need any ideas on it.



thanks, i like the design, my question for now is where to drill in the fridge to damage it the least, and if i should put it in the freezer or in the fridge... I am still a long way from doing this, 8 months at least, right before next summer


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## Hushpuppy

It may be easiest to go in through the back if there isn't a large heat sink back there. I would not put it in the freezer. If you maintain about 50f water going through the coil, it will lower your water to about 68f in your rez. I know this because that is what I kept the chiller on that is in the pic and that was my water temp in my 30gal rez.


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