# introducing air into reservoir



## medicalGreenGrower (Feb 4, 2009)

just wondering if i should have an air stone to introduce oxygen into my hydro reservoir. i'm using an ebb and flow system with 20 gallon reservoirs. will the added oxygen change the chemistry of the nutrients? thanks.


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## diablo_cannabis (Feb 4, 2009)

oxygenating the water will not hurt it at all. i have an air stone in my reservoir to keep the water from becoming stagnant and to keep the nutrients from settling at the bottom.


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## Tater (Feb 4, 2009)

medicalGreenGrower, that is exactly how DWC or Deep Water Culture works.  Your plants will love the extra O2.  If you ever decide to use CO2 though in your grow becareful using airstones as bubling CO2 through water will lower the pH.


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## WeedHopper (Feb 4, 2009)

Yes ,,DWC and Clonners,, work great that way. I LOVE BUBBLES. And so will your Plants.


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## medicalGreenGrower (Feb 4, 2009)

i understand that i would want an air stone if i was using DWC but i have an ebb and flow system. i read on a nute bottle that oxygen pulls out necessary nutrients so if i'm just using an ebb and flow system i wasn't sure if i should throw in an air stone. i am using co2 so maybe if i use air pump/air stone set up i should put the pump near the ceiling since co2 sinks? thanks.


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## Tater (Feb 4, 2009)

If you are using an ebb and flow system you don't need an air stone, but its up to you.  Capillary action will provide the plants with the O2 the need.


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## someguy (Feb 8, 2009)

i might do overkill, but in a big fan of aeration


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## Vegs (Feb 8, 2009)

> but i have an ebb and flow system. i read on a nute bottle that oxygen pulls out necessary nutrients so if i'm just using an ebb and flow system i wasn't sure if i should throw in an air stone.



I'm in the same boat as well because I've had the same thoughts but wasn't really sure if I was going to reap any rewards of adding another device sucking up more electricity to only provide minimal benefit. I never heard of oxygen lowering the nute levels. My reservoir is not only black in color but capped so it doesn't get much contact with moving air.


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## POTUS (Feb 8, 2009)

As Tater has said, in an ebb and flow system, adding oxygen to your reservoir is pointless. During the "Flow" or "Fill" cycle, the plants gain their nutrients and water. During the "Ebb" or "Drain" cycle, the water recedes and pulls fresh air all the way to the bottom of the grow chamber. The media and root mass will retain enough moisture to supply the roots with all the needed water and nutrients during the "Drain" cycle and they are getting all the oxygen they need during that period as well.

This is taking for granted that you're running your cycles properly. If your nutrient strength is correct, you should be able to run your pump cycle every couple of hours. I use one hour on, two hours off, 24/7. My plants love it.

However, if you ask twenty Ebb and Flow users, you'll get thirty different cycle settings. :smoke1:


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## Vegs (Feb 9, 2009)

Lol, no doubt...I roll with 3 - 15 minute cycles.


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## Tater (Feb 10, 2009)

> However, if you ask twenty Ebb and Flow users, you'll get thirty different cycle settings.



haha to true


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## greenfriend (Feb 10, 2009)

imo i would have either an airstone or a small circulation pump to keep the res solution from becoming stagnant.  in ebb and flow the root system doesnt really need the extra oxygen, but it cant hurt, and stagnant water is not ideal


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## CasualGrower (Feb 10, 2009)

greenfriend said:
			
		

> imo i would have either an airstone or a small circulation pump to keep the res solution from becoming stagnant. in ebb and flow the root system doesnt really need the extra oxygen, but it cant hurt, and stagnant water is not ideal


 
What POTUS said earlier was ABSOLUTELY right..... with an Ebb and Drain system you do NOT need an airstone to oxygenate your water..... the pure movement of that water will oxygenate and keep it circulating enough to keep it from going stagnant.  

Some people use an airstone or 2 to keep the nute solution stirred  however and keep any settling elements in the solution suspended.. it is a good method.  Some people might use a small submersible pump to keep the water moving to help keep the nutes from settling,  however placement of that pump and the outlet of that pump will have to be placed so as you do not set up a constant current in your res.  IF you do that you will set up a whirlpool effect in there and then all your not totally dissolved nutes will collect in the centers of these lil whirlpools....

I am kinda making this a lil more confusing than it needs to be, however if you do a weekly water changes or so, there is NO need to worry about it heh....


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## POTUS (Feb 10, 2009)

Another bit of knowledge for you; If you size your reservoir so that you can add one tenth of it's total volume per/day in fresh nutrient solution, you never need to change out your water/nute solution.

That also prevents the water from ever getting "stagnant".

Changing out the water in an ebb and flow system should NEVER be necessary. If you have to, then your reservoir is too big and it's making you waste money.


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## Vegs (Feb 11, 2009)

> Another bit of knowledge for you; If you size your reservoir so that you can add one tenth of it's total volume per/day in fresh nutrient solution, you never need to change out your water/nute solution.



Amen! I never change my rez. I tier the nute schedule plus add fresh water daily.


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## TentFarmer (Feb 11, 2009)

Ready for the opinion of another Eb user?

I run an air stone and a small pump.  Even with both of these going I still get a little nuit settlement.  I know this system is viewed as overkill by many, but the amount of electric used by the water and air pump are nothing compared to the rest of the setup.

If you're going to use a water pump I've got a trick.  My pump has 4 little suction cups on the bottom of it.  I stick it to the res wall and then pull the top two off.  Then the pump is aimed at the bottom of my res.  I aim the pump right at the heat element and towards the flood pump.

My air stone gets put to the side of the res.  When I use both I notice little settlement on the bottom.  Also note that many water pumps will filter the nuits.  If I hit my pump with fresh water when doing a res change, it poured out dark nuits.  I tried removing the filter and that worked until it sucked up a little piece of hydroton.  Thankfully it worked fine once I removed said hydroton.

I would suggest that you do at least one or the other.  Although I'll keep working with both if for no other reason then to hear how wrong I am.

If there was only one method that worked, we wouldn't need this board.

Good luck


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## POTUS (Feb 12, 2009)

TentFarmer said:
			
		

> Ready for the opinion of another Eb user?  I run an air stone and a small pump. Even with both of these going I still get a little nuit settlement.


If your nutrients won't dissolve in water, even with water flowing around them 24/7, imagine what they're doing in your grow chambers.

Pitch whatever you're using in the bin and use a liquid fert like the three part Flora Series made by General Hydroponics. It mixes instantly with water and needs no constant stirring.

We all learn over the years what works or not. Now that you've learned, move on and have even better crops with less management.

The entire ebb and flow method is designed to make it easy. No changing of water, no reason to stir nutrients, no reason to add air to your reservoir. No roots to trim. Just easy.

As for: "If there was only one method that worked, we wouldn't need this board.", obviously your method isn't working. You have undissolved nutrients laying in the bottom of your reservoir despite a constant flow of water movement around the solids. All you need to do is quit being stubborn and change your method instead of trying to prove you can do it the wrong way by adding more complication to it.


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## TentFarmer (Feb 12, 2009)

POTUS said:
			
		

> If your nutrients won't dissolve in water, even with water flowing around them 24/7, imagine what they're doing in your grow chambers.
> 
> Pitch whatever you're using in the bin and use a liquid fert like the three part Flora Series made by General Hydroponics. It mixes instantly with water and needs no constant stirring.
> 
> ...



I appreciate the advice, however there is more info that you are not aware of.  I am using PUre Blend Pro from Botanicare witch is a hydro organic fertilizer.  The system takes care of all of my micro nutrients and has provided some very very nice results.  While I could throw away 100+ dollars in nuits so I didn't have a very small amount of nuits settle don the bottom of the res, I would rather use up what I have and possibly try something different then.

I understand I am stuborn.  However if I didn't stick to my guns at times, and changed everytime someone told me to, then I wouldn't have made it this far.  My ppm stays very consistent through the week and I spend 20 minutes a week changing the res water.  

I'm a hands on type of guy.  I brew my own beer, grow my own dope, and create and maintain many other projects in my life.  While I have no frustrations with my current system, I'm sorry to hear you do.

Appreciate the advice, illistrates the "20 different answers" scenario quite well.


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## NewbieG (Feb 14, 2009)

I run an ebb and flo and have two air stones running full time. Its so little electricity and the plants seem to love it. I vegger my bag seed for a month (I topped them as well) and I got shoots over 3 feet tall. Hope this helps.


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## POTUS (Feb 14, 2009)

TentFarmer said:
			
		

> I appreciate the advice, however there is more info that you are not aware of. I am using PUre Blend Pro from Botanicare witch is a hydro organic fertilizer. The system takes care of all of my micro nutrients and has provided some very very nice results. While I could throw away 100+ dollars in nuits so I didn't have a very small amount of nuits settle don the bottom of the res, I would rather use up what I have and possibly try something different then.
> 
> I understand I am stubborn. However if I didn't stick to my guns at times, and changed every time someone told me to, then I wouldn't have made it this far. My ppm stays very consistent through the week and I spend 20 minutes a week changing the res water.


Why are you throwing away your nutrient solution every week?

The reason I ask is that if your reservoir is sized correctly, the plants would use about one/tenth of the total volume each day. The evening of each day, you could add fresh solution to top off the reservoir and never have a problem. I've been doing this for decades. I've never thrown out a single gallon of nutrient solution. It's all used, every time. I never have problems of any kind while doing this.

So, as I was saying:

I don't have to stir my nutrients and they don't collect in my grow chambers. Yours does settle in your reservoir and because of that, there is no way the same thing isn't happening in your grow chambers. That will end up with a problem of salts buildup.

I don't waste any nutrients by throwing them out each week. Every cent I spend is used by the plants. Every time you throw out your nutrient water each week, you're throwing money down the drain.

*DISCLAIMER SO THAT YOU DON'T THINK THIS IS AN ATTACK OR CAUSING AN ARGUMENT:*

*Please don't think I'm attacking you. This group is for people to explain different methods of growing and their benefits or disadvantages.*

I believe that the way you're using your ebb and flow system is wasteful of nutrients, electricity and equipment.

You have the additional costs of another pump, more expenditures on nutrients and the potential buildup of nutrient salts in your grow chambers. Also more labor because of the solution change-out each week.

When a method that eliminated those problems or costs is presented, what is it about changing to a more effective manner of growing that isn't something you would want to do?


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## POTUS (Feb 14, 2009)

NewbieG said:
			
		

> I run an ebb and flo and have two air stones running full time. Its so little electricity and the plants seem to love it. I vegger my bag seed for a month (I topped them as well) and I got shoots over 3 feet tall. Hope this helps.


What I'm saying is that you would have exactly the same results if you were not using the airstones. In an ebb and flow system, the air stones are redundant and unnecessary. It's almost like adding water to a bucket full of water to make it wetter. Ebb and Flow maximizes the oxygen supply to the roots. The process itself makes this happen with no alterations needed.

You could also add a separate tank with huge spray heads in it that would have hundreds of micro spray heads that atomize the water molecules into a maximized aeration of water and oxygen.

That would also not add a bit more oxygen to the roots than a properly built ebb and flow system has inherently built into it.

But if people want to buy more than they need to, use more labor to perform a task and spend more time on things that don't really do anything, then who in the hell am I to try to stop them?

I'm nobody. Everyone should just do as they like and if someone else doesn't like it, then oh well...

Good luck to each of you.

I've tried to explain the science behind the system. It's up to you if you listen or not. Then, even if you listened, it's still up to you if you use the advice or not.

Stoney.


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## TentFarmer (Feb 14, 2009)

Potus,

I appreciate you following up on this post.  I apologize as I do tend to get defensive when I feel suggestions are supplied with a pointed stick.  However today is a new day, a new toke, and an open mind.



			
				POTUS said:
			
		

> Why are you throwing away your nutrient solution every week?



I was under the impression that certain nuits would be used before others.  In my mind if a nuit was spent and I added a small amount of water/nuit to it, it would band-aid the situation.  




			
				POTUS said:
			
		

> The reason I ask is that if your reservoir is sized correctly, the plants would use about one/tenth of the total volume each day. The evening of each day, you could add fresh solution to top off the reservoir and never have a problem. I've been doing this for decades. I've never thrown out a single gallon of nutrient solution. It's all used, every time. I never have problems of any kind while doing this.



When using this method do you mix your nuits at the same concentration as you would if you were to change out your res water?  I figured a portion of my water gets used by the plants and a portion evaporates on the tray.



			
				POTUS said:
			
		

> I don't have to stir my nutrients and they don't collect in my grow chambers. Yours does settle in your reservoir and because of that, there is no way the same thing isn't happening in your grow chambers. That will end up with a problem of salts buildup.



I keep my system sparklin clean by running fresh water through the plants, rinsing salt buildup off roots and hydroton when doing res changes.  I also run a rag over the tray when I do res changes to keep it all looking new.  I also make sure to clean the ring aroudn the tub in my res.  My thought was that any nuits drying on the tray due to evaporation after floods would collect and it would be better to keep fresh.



			
				POTUS said:
			
		

> I don't waste any nutrients by throwing them out each week. Every cent I spend is used by the plants. Every time you throw out your nutrient water each week, you're throwing money down the drain.



My eyes and ears are (now) wide open.



			
				POTUS said:
			
		

> I believe that the way you're using your ebb and flow system is wasteful of nutrients, electricity and equipment.
> 
> You have the additional costs of another pump, more expenditures on nutrients and the potential buildup of nutrient salts in your grow chambers. Also more labor because of the solution change-out each week.
> 
> When a method that eliminated those problems or costs is presented, what is it about changing to a more effective manner of growing that isn't something you would want to do?


The change in ideas is completly welcomed.  I objected more to how it was presented rather then the information itself.  I appreciate your help and hope you can help me fill in the blanks.

TF


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## The Effen Gee (Feb 14, 2009)

We have a small compressor set up to aireate our 32 gallon rez twice a day for 5 minutes to keep the anerobics down, or the bad bacteria.

We do dutch leech in coco and have nothing but success. We use a LOT of Microbial, Fungal, Enzymatic and Bacterial additives and cultures to "Pre-chew" some food, defend the plant from bugs, mold and fungus.


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## POTUS (Feb 14, 2009)

TentFarmer said:
			
		

> Potus,
> 
> I appreciate you following up on this post. I apologize as I do tend to get defensive when I feel suggestions are supplied with a pointed stick. However today is a new day, a new toke, and an open mind.


Hey, sometimes I come on a little strong. It comes from a lifetime of coming on a little strong...hehe  I'm working on it. I've learned so many lessons during my use of Hydro that I try to make others understand why some things are done before they make the same mistakes.



			
				TentFarmer said:
			
		

> I was under the impression that certain nuits would be used before others. In my mind if a nuit was spent and I added a small amount of water/nuit to it, it would band-aid the situation.


If your reservoir holds ten times the amount your plants use per/day during full vegetative growth, that means that during full vegetative growth and during flowering, you'll have to add freshly made nutrients each day in an amount equal to one tenth the total volume of your reservoir.

That replenishment will keep your nutrients at a very balanced strength and make it unnecessary to change the nutrient solution at all during your entire grow.

During the first part of your grow, you use a milder strength of nutrient solution. Then, as your plants get larger and more capable of handling stronger nutes, you increase the strength of the replacement nute solution and after ten days, your entire reservoir is now at the increased strength. No shock to the plants and a steady strengthening of the solution to full strength.

Then, when you switch your lights to flowering, you simply start using a full strength flowering solution as the added nutrient solution each night. Again, after ten days, you've gradually changed your nutrient to a flowering solution with no sudden shock to your plants.

This accomplishes a savings in nutrient costs and also smooths out the transition between strengths and types of nutrients when the plants grow and change cycles.



			
				TentFarmer said:
			
		

> When using this method do you mix your nuits at the same concentration as you would if you were to change out your res water? I figured a portion of my water gets used by the plants and a portion evaporates on the tray.


Evaporation is slight in an ebb and flow system. Your daily addition of fresh nutrient solution will compensate for any loss from evaporation. The nutrient strength will never alter significantly during this process.



			
				TentFarmer said:
			
		

> I keep my system sparklin clean by running fresh water through the plants, rinsing salt buildup off roots and hydroton when doing res changes. I also run a rag over the tray when I do res changes to keep it all looking new. I also make sure to clean the ring around the tub in my res. My thought was that any nuits drying on the tray due to evaporation after floods would collect and it would be better to keep fresh.


You won't have to worry about doing that but once per/grow if you use my system. After harvest, I always give my entire grow room and all the chambers a good Clorox sanitizing bath, rinse and then I cover it until use again. Just before use, I run a reservoir of fresh water through the system to clean out anything that may have gotten in during the down time.



			
				TentFarmer said:
			
		

> My eyes and ears are (now) wide open.  The change in ideas is completely welcomed. I objected more to how it was presented rather then the information itself. I appreciate your help and hope you can help me fill in the blanks.


Sorry if I came on too strong. Like I said, I'm working on that. I'm working at becoming immune to arguing.

Way back when rocks were young, my Mom used to say; "Stoney, a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". I swear, I heard that a thousand times. I gotta try to stop trying to convince people against their will.

Good luck to you!


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## NorCalHal (Feb 15, 2009)

Topping off your Res every nite is alot more labor intensive then changing out the res once a week, imo. That forces you to be there all the time and my time is worth more then an extra $40 in nuits during a run.

But, I do agree that an airstone has no advantage in an ebb&flo.


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## bigb (Feb 15, 2009)

i would have to agree with norcalhal about changing out the water. ive done it both ways and the once a week is good for me, takes 5 min to drain res and  2 min to fill res. and probly another 4 for everything else. when u might spend like 5 min per day topping off res. and adding nutes.
 about the airstones/pump is not neccasary like everyone else. but i do use one, it give me peace of mind about water circulation/stagnant water. 
the cost is not so much i bought the smallest pump the hydro store had cost me $7 dollars.and probly 28 cents a month to run( i keep it on its lowest setting) no big deal.
if u cant afford to pay that or think its to much of an extra costs then i want u to think about all the other things bought for growing id say u come up with atleast 3 items not u dont need but some how u feel it helps the grow.

peace


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## fishcabo (Feb 15, 2009)

This is an interesting dilema on whether to change the reservoir water etc.  I have tried both ways.  On one grow, my first hydro (ebb and flow), I changed the water once per week.  This was a hassle as my set up is upstairs.  It is easy to drain as there is a tub to dump it into in another room.  Refilling is a pain to carry water upstairs 2.5 gallons at a time as this is the max ammount of water the ro will deliver at one time.  I got nine oz. off of that grow with a 400 hps with three sour diesels and three ww.  The next grow I grew the same strains and same veg time without changing the reservoir.  I just kept a close eye on the ppms and ph.  I would add water as needed and nutes as needed.  Sometimes, I would add just plain water as the ppm would kick up due to more water being used in the system than nutes.  Other times, I would add one half strength to keep the ppms dialed in.  WW is somewhat nute sensitive so I had to be careful not to get ram's horns going on.  I got the same harvest ammount with much less work.  When it was time to flower on the second grow, I did drain out half the solution and add flowering nutes always keeping a close eye on the ppms when I switched to 12/12.  Through attrition, the system had only flowering nutes in it.  By the way, I do have a bubbler in my reservoir.  I feel the plants can keep growing at full tilt during the fill stage if the water is highly oxygenated.  A five watt pump is nothing to run.  I have not tried it the other way (no bubbler).  Hope this helps.  Remember, the nutrient companies will tell you to change the reservoir weekly or more so they can what?  Sell more nutes.  Plus, it is not good for the environment to keep dumping high nutrient water down the drain.


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## POTUS (Feb 15, 2009)

I'm not suggesting my method to anyone who can afford to dump perfectly good nutrients down the drain so that it doesn't interfere with thier social life.

I'm talking to those who want to conserve their money, use all of their nutrients and are settled in with family, children or just like being at home every night.

If you aren't that type of person, then by all means, do what is necessary to fit your life style.

If a person is home most of the time anyway, and can spare the 5 minutes it takes to lift a two gallon jug and dump it into your reservoir, it'll save you money.

It takes about 3 to 4 days before the reservoir will get low enough to damage the pump, so a few days away from the system won't cause any problems.

So, bottom line is you can wait 7 days and waste an entire batch of nutrients or fill your reservoir every 4 days with no loss. You can even add it every night if you don't mind lifting that two gallon jug for a couple of minutes.

Those of you that have lives that don't permit you to stand still for 5 minutes at home, for God's sake, don't even try this method....hehe


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## fishcabo (Feb 15, 2009)

Potus, you are hillarious and i am with you 100% on the no reservoir refill mode.  It produces just the same.  Thanks for your help in the past.  You are a wealth of knowledge for this board.  I better go and lift my 2 gallon jug up the stairs.


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## Vegs (Feb 20, 2009)

I'm due for a lifestyle change...


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