# Should I use blackstrap with fox farm?



## Gixxerman420 (Mar 21, 2011)

I am using the whole line of fox farm, and I was wandering if I should be using the microherd and blackstrap mollasses? I read somewhere that you only use it with organics, and FF claims to be "all natural" ... Are the nutrients already in an attainable form or do I need the microbes and carbs? Thx anyone who can help please!!!


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## Wetdog (Mar 21, 2011)

I would use the microbes and the carbs.

I used them with Jack's Classic, so I'd bet they'll work with FF.

Might not hurt to re-inoculate every few weeks though.

Wet


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## Roddy (Mar 21, 2011)

FF isn't all natural, it is a chem based organic blend....


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## benamucc (Mar 21, 2011)

^^  almost...

From FF Site:  
"Our Peace of Mind® and Happy Frog® fertilizers are 100% organic.  Our Big Bloom&#8482; Liquid Fertilizer and all of our soils are also organic.  We do offer some fertilizers with mineral-based, time-release ingredients that are not classified as organic.  These include American Pride® and Marine Cuisine® fertilizers, Tiger Bloom® and Grow Big® liquids, and our soluble products like Cha Ching®, Beastie Bloomz®, and Open Sesame®. "

Isn't Molasas supposed to feed the microbes?  What about the new FF Microbe brew?  Or do you just like the molassas idea?  i don't think it would hurt IMO.


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## Roddy (Mar 21, 2011)

Right, I was assuming (I know, ***-u-me) that the FF spoken of was the trio. Grow big and Tiger are the issue with this nute system. My understanding is that the microbes are basically killed off with the use of these, so an innoculator might be a good idea around the 5th week of blooming and going with molasses alone the last 3 weeks (depending on budding time, if going 9 weeks, wait until 6th week etc)?? My thought on this is that you're usually not feeding the gals the last few weeks anyway, but the soil dwellers will benefit from the molasses, which in theory should help the plant.

However, if what I have read is true, there will be minimal benefit of using molasses and the FF trio nute system together...correct me if I am mistaken!


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## 7greeneyes (Mar 21, 2011)

Have used molasses every other "watering". As in nute, then water, then nutes, then water with molasses then cycle again ad nauseum. Works stellar and the girls will show u much love for your troubles.

Peace,

7greeneyes


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## benamucc (Mar 21, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> My understanding is that the microbes are basically killed off with the use of these, so an innoculator might be a good idea around the 5th week of blooming and going with molasses alone the last 3 weeks (depending on budding time, if going 9 weeks, wait until 6th week etc)??


 
I don't buy that.  Why would FoxFarm market a product designed to feed microbes, if part of the same feeding system was at the same time killing microbes?  

Further more, why would they choose 6 weeks or 50% of the 12 week feeding schedule to feed the microbe brew if there were no microbes alive to feed?  

(I'm bored, just up for a debate. No love loss roddy :hubba: )


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## Gixxerman420 (Mar 21, 2011)

benamucc said:
			
		

> I don't buy that.  Why would FoxFarm market a product designed to feed microbes, if part of the same feeding system was at the same time killing microbes?
> 
> Further more, why would they choose 6 weeks or 50% of the 12 week feeding schedule to feed the microbe brew if there were no microbes alive to feed?
> 
> (I'm bored, just up for a debate. No love loss roddy :hubba: )


See, this brings me to my predicament... I think I'll skip the blackstrap seeing as the girls seem to be growing fine, and I'm on a limited budget this week... I may end up getting it closer to the end of flowering; I'm currently vegging so not an immediate issue I guess... Thanks for your input guys, great "food for thought!"


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## Roddy (Mar 21, 2011)

I can quote the source and you can decide for yourself....


_Test 4 Fox Farm Full line = Grow Big (6-4-4)- Tiger Bloom (2-8-4)- Big Bloom (0.01-0.3-0.7)- Open Sesame (5-45-19)- Beastie Bloomz (0-50-30) - Cha-ching (9-50-10) 

I've been eager to write about Fox farm for some time. It's an extremely popular and effective chemical based product. If you've read the above information than you understand the importance of a "living" substrate. A diverse and rich bacterial and fungal balanced medium contains enough beneficial organisms to out compete pathogens and disease causing bacteria and creates accessible stored nutrient content. Chemical fertilizers kill off much of the microbial life and allow for limited forms of absorption and resistance to disease. When some microbial life dies off the fragile "circle of life" follows. If for example we eliminated bacterial life, this will lead to an abundance of fungus. Enzymes produced from fungus are acidic. This drives the pH down creating nutrient lock-up and unattractive environments for life, specifically bacteria. Fox farm definitely suffers from this chemical kill off scenario. Two major things exposed this to me even before applications. First, all the micro-nutrients are applied through chemical composition with-in the primary grow and bloom products and they are also in Big Bloom. As microbial life is imperative in organic micro-nutrient absorption and chemicals kill microbial life we can infer that Big Bloom under these conditions produces minimal nutrient effectiveness hence most micro-nutrients must be applied chemically. Second, if we refer to the recommended feeding schedule posted on the companies web-site you'll see in week 7 and 8, they call for additional Grow Big. Remember that the majority of bacteria we're interested in are nitrogen loving and retain that specific nute for lengthy periods of time. This is exactly why many organic programs can eliminate nitrogen all together later in flowering. Here, the chemicals have eradicated these bacteria and hence eliminated nitrogen storage capacity requiring an extra dosage. This led me to restructure the schedule. I feel if your going to use chemicals you should apply them as such. Less over more applications. I treated this test as if no soil life was present. I decreased initial nitrogen and then divided it among vegetative and early flowering applications. My primary nitrogen weeks are 2 through 8. This also fell into my "curve" scenario of nutes - building to a maximum and then tapering off towards harvest. In no way do I want to discourage those of you who use Foxfarm, as far as chemical fertilizers go it's extremely effective. I think it's important to understand how your feeding your plants however. 

Big Bloom is the all organic additive Fox farm uses. Early applications, with-out chemical additions, promote soil health and lush, consistent growth. After the additions of Grow Big and Tiger Bloom it's effectiveness tapers off. Although some positive effects are noticed the majority of organic nutrients are unavailable and bacterial and fungal life struggles to maintain populations, unable to react with the nutes. I lowered the overall applied amount and it had little impact. The solution is made of effective ingredients. Bat guano, earth worm castings and enzymes. These enzymes are this products saving grace in fact and are the primary reason I continued applying it with the chemicals.

Both Grow Big and Tiger Bloom are highly effective synthetic/chemical compositions. Lacking in diversity really is not an issue here, especially with faster flowering strains like this Skywalker for example. It's extremely predictable and easy to apply. Grow Big produced very rigid, similarly structured plants. Fan leaves were minimal but large and efficient. This is a general theme with this product. Stalk circumference and stem width was smaller and woodier but seemed efficient at transporting fluids and therefore nutes. Tiger Bloom promoted dense, sticky and heavy nuggets. The leaf to bud ratio was very low. Plants seemed to concentrate on building buds when they were suppose to. This resulted in solid harvests and heavy production. The marijuana was less pungent than organic application and the flavor was not as "sweet" but still impressive._

hXXp://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50463

And, I'm always up for a fun and friendly debate, my friend...it's how we learn!!!


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## benamucc (Mar 21, 2011)

now THATS what I like!!  

since this test was done well before FF released the microbe brew, it would be taken that the new product is not really worth anything?  

i've only ever had experience with FF RAISING the ph in both soil, and now hydro also.  

(now ya dun got me rserchin organics...thanks for the extra work :ignore:


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## Gixxerman420 (Mar 21, 2011)

Thx Roddy...  Will certainly take this into consideration.  I love this site, everyone is sooo helpful!!!


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## Wetdog (Mar 21, 2011)

benamucc said:
			
		

> I don't buy that.  Why would FoxFarm market a product designed to feed microbes, if part of the same feeding system was at the same time killing microbes?
> 
> Further more, why would they choose 6 weeks or 50% of the 12 week feeding schedule to feed the microbe brew if there were no microbes alive to feed?
> 
> (I'm bored, just up for a debate. No love loss roddy :hubba: )



:yeahthat: :goodposting: 

I don't buy it either, as what I was using in my garden was WAAAAAAY more 'chemical' than the FF (Jack's Classic, or Peter's as it was known), and this was years before I started growing MJ again.

SOMETHING was consuming the molasses, because it sure wasn't building up in the soil.

I'll agree that they certainly won't thrive under a all chem regime (Jack's), but from reading the FF blurb, it just seems like they have some stuff in there that it's just not worth the $$$$$ to get certified, but still natural based.

I do believe that these little buggers are tougher than given credit for.

Wet


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## 4u2sm0ke (Mar 21, 2011)

I use them all..and moles asses   but like the other poster..its just one opinion..


take care and be safe


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## Carlo (Mar 21, 2011)

So for beginners like myself, what does all this mean? Are fox farm products good? I hope so since this is the brand that i went with.


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## Roddy (Mar 21, 2011)

I'm not cutting down anything and I am not saying FF isn't gonna work...I personally do not like the idea of buying expensive soil just to turn around and kill everything good in it the first time I feed the plants. I got good results with them when I used them, but with research, well....

It is just an opinion, one thought highly enough of to be made a sticky...just saying.


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## Gixxerman420 (Mar 21, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> I'm not cutting down anything and I am not saying FF isn't gonna work...I personally do not like the idea of buying expensive soil just to turn around and kill everything good in it the first time I feed the plants. I got good results with them when I used them, but with research, well....
> 
> It is just an opinion, one thought highly enough of to be made a sticky...just saying.


You know of a good organic line that I could use with blackstrap on the next "grow around?"


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## Roddy (Mar 21, 2011)

I went to Gen Organics Bio Root, Biothrive Grow, Bio Weed, Bio Bloom and Bio Bud. It's expensive as all get out, but all organic and the plants seem to be happy with it this far. As for the FF, I did as I suggested and used an innoculant and molasses the last 3-4 weeks,,,an option.


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## Roddy (Mar 21, 2011)

This stuff will grow a plant right out of coco coir...which has absolutely no microbe life at all. In other words, it provides everything the plant needs...the delivery is chemically based. FF, I am talking about...


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## Wetdog (Mar 22, 2011)

Gixxerman420 said:
			
		

> You know of a good organic line that I could use with blackstrap on the next "grow around?"



Earth Juice line. Quality & inexpensive.

Read Jmans 'nute study' for lots of info.

Wet


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## Gixxerman420 (Mar 22, 2011)

Wetdog said:
			
		

> Earth Juice line. Quality & inexpensive.
> 
> Read Jmans 'nute study' for lots of info.
> 
> Wet


Thx dog!:rofl: I'll look into that, I like FF pretty good though, didn't use molasses last grow and got descent results anyways, was just curious as to the nature of FF base, (I.e. Chemical or organic) and it's resulting suggested implication with molasses as an additive. I was skeptical of "all natural", and you guys have been a huge help! Roddy, will definitely by considering the microherd and blackstrap for last few weeks.... THX again!


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## Roddy (Mar 22, 2011)

lol wetdog, Jman is who I quoted.....


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## Gixxerman420 (Mar 22, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> lol wetdog, Jman is who I quoted.....


:joint::joint::joint: Happens to all of us!:rofl:


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