# Flushing / Nitrogen / Trichomes



## SDotee (Aug 23, 2009)

Of the last set, two girls of the batch were a test on taste by flushing at different stages of flowering ( for the sake of science! ). In any event one of the girls I did a final flush at 18 days and just ph-d water till the end.

Now 2 days from 10 weeks of flower the trichs are still a mix of clear/cloudy. The strain is AK-48. This is the 3rd cloned generation from seed.

My question is this... Will a deficiency of nutrients STOP trich development? 

Or will they mature to amber without nutrients? The fan leaves are all either completely yellow or nearing the top of the colas they are a mix of grn/yelw. I don't have any photos with me.... If they are really needed to answer the question I will provide tonight. TY

TY


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## purplephazes (Aug 23, 2009)

No ! A defiency can cause a lot of problems but IMO it will not stop your plant from getting amber trichs . The reason they are still cloudy is probably due to having a long flowering strain i.e sativa's can take from 10 -16 weeks to complete flowering where as indica strains are much shorter 7-12 weeks but this is very dependant on the  breeders information supplied as well its usally pretty close to what they say ! Patience is the word of the day ! OOHH and when god gave us this wonderful herb i am sure they survived and matured without to many nutes  They are getting very close @ 2 weeks away  ! But wait for more info to come as well !


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## SDotee (Aug 23, 2009)

Thank you for the answers! Exactly what I needed, ty ty


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## The Effen Gee (Aug 23, 2009)

If your plant has green leaves all the way down to the bottom, than you fed too much nitrogen in the beginning and flushing will not do you any good.


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## Hick (Aug 23, 2009)

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42048&page=3&highlight=flushing


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## LEFTHAND (Aug 23, 2009)

well first i would like to say how much for he unicorn??
you take cash??  

but seriously.. being a "newer" grower i know what stoney means.. i was told i have to flush the last wk or 2 before harvest..
after growing a few, and learning so much from all you guys.. i would say the taste comes from the drying/curing process.IMO.. maybe if anything the chem thats left in the plant, but who ever smokes out there theres no difference, but once again this is my opinion.. being nature of a new grower..

i find it easy to be drawn or buy into the bullsheit gimicks...
to each there own... and own to teach. is a growers preach...
lol
LH


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## ishnish (Aug 23, 2009)

I'd have to agree with lefthand & stoneybud..  i just harvested a week ago without flushing at all.  while i was planning to, i ended up with some seeds trying to grow so i cut sooner than was planned.  smoke tastes good and is fairly smooth.  no sparkling or black ash at all, which i was "told" are causes of not flushing..


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## LEFTHAND (Aug 23, 2009)

ishnish said:
			
		

> I'd have to agree with lefthand & stoneybud.. i just harvested a week ago without flushing at all. while i was planning to, i ended up with some seeds trying to grow so i cut sooner than was planned. smoke tastes good and is fairly smooth. no sparkling or black ash at all, which i was "told" are causes of not flushing..




you know what ishnish.i was also told if one doest flush you get the black ash and sizzilin... 
LH


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## loolagigi (Aug 23, 2009)

hmmm got me thinking, no flush


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## StoneyBud (Aug 23, 2009)

LEFTHAND said:
			
		

> well first i would like to say how much for he unicorn??
> you take cash??


 
That'll be Eleventy Two Ninety Five.

Paid in advance.... hehe


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## The Effen Gee (Aug 23, 2009)

I dont "Flush".

I "Clean". I use Clearex to remove built up salts in the plants vascular system. I have to do this because I use a 2 part solution from House and Garden.

Trust me, there is a difference. Salt wise. Flushing, does nothing but starve your plants. 

Especially sativas, because technically, most of them never "Finish" ripening.

We are on the same page stony...remember?


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

CLEAREX  
Salt Leaching Solution

A common cause of crop failure can be traced to the build up of nutrient salt deposits in soils or soilless grow media. High salt concentrations in the soil solution cause a shrinkage of plant cell protoplasm away from the cell wall as a result of osmosis.This condition, known as plasmolysis, can eventually lead to irreversible wilting.

CLEAREX  is a scientifically formulated isotonic drench solution, which effectively binds with the excess nutrient salt and safely leaches it from the soil. Leaching with tap or deionized water can lead to hyptonic conditions which cause cell lycis with outflow of essential electrolytes and nutrients.  

This causes tissue damage leading to serious pathogen disorders such as bacterial and fungal infections.  CLEAREX  is isotonic, therefore, it creates a safe osmotic environment which allows plant cells to maintain an optimal turgor pressure during treatment.

CLEAREX  can also be used at the end of a crops growth cycle to trigger the last reproductive stage of the plant, forcing it to process and assimilate endogenous nutrients. CLEAREX  contains specific electrolytes and selected mono and disaccharides which provide energy for the biosynthesis of important plant metabolites and macromolecules.

Preharvest treatments with CLEAREX  are known to enhance the flavor and increase yields in fruits, vegetables, and culinary herbs by flushing out extraneous chemical nutrients.


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## Mutt (Aug 24, 2009)

> I most assuredly understand that you believe it to be an organic aid and flavor enhancement



I don't think its organic. never seen an organic grower use it to date...only hydro guys and some chem/dirt growers.

Flushing defeats the entire purpose of organics.

(when i say organics...i don't mean pre-mixed organic ferts from companies...don't have much experience with those)


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## The Effen Gee (Aug 24, 2009)

I use the two part nutes, in my rez. I love them. Canna makes great stuff. House and garden makes Vanderswan, wich works magnificently well with tap water.

No, these are not organic. But I also make a compost tea in every feed batch which is organic. 

UMBRA put's it best: Feed the soil, not the plants.

Overfeeding is overfeeding. Trowing gallons of plain water on your plants in late harvest is only gonna bite you in the rear. Unless you use straight Chem nutes and are just trying to get either the salts out, or the plant to use up the remaining food they have stored. 

In the final week before harvest...I don't even water three or four days before I harvest.


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## zipflip (Aug 25, 2009)

instead of startin a new thread i shoulda put my ? up here if i woulda seen it prior. 



> i have flora kleen and used it on some and some just strait water the last week or better prior to harvest. teh ones i used florakleen for final flush i used FK/water the last 3 waterings at rate of 1.5 tsp per gallon water.
> now the same strain girls i used plain water on all have a very dominant flavor to them. very noticable.
> now the bud i smoke which i used fk in final stage almost has no taste to it at all. but is very very smooth
> i mean it had a taste but it tasted like nothing... that make sense? lol idk im stoned.
> ...


 http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=46331

good read tho.
 thanks for the info too guys.
 but wat ya think on the havin hardly any taste at all part above ?


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## Elliot Jansen (Aug 26, 2009)

I gotta weigh in on this..  I have noticed a difference between the harshness of a plant that I flushed and str8 watered for a week before harves, and a plant that was allowed to suck nutes until the day of harvest.

I flush/water because I believe the plant would much rather consume it's own sugars when it comes to the final stages of flowering and creating trichomes.  Hence the tendency to "yellow out" towards the end.

I also think that give the nature of the ph being more acidic, 5.5 -5.8 that allowing this liquid to dry inside your plants, when burned with flame causes the harshness of the smoke. Of course that is relative to your smoking apparatus as well. Bubbler vs. Straight pipe.

No scientific facts to back any of that up.  Just a growers opinion.


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## zipflip (Aug 26, 2009)

:48:


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## 2Dog (Aug 26, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> The two questions you ask have nothing to do with one another.
> 
> 1. Yes, the Trichomes development will slow or stop as a result of not feeding the plant. You are starving it to death.
> 
> ...


 

awesome info thanks!   passing it back pp.  :48:


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## zipflip (Aug 26, 2009)

personally i honestly dont know wat to think of the whole flushin before chop thing. i've done both and notice diff on sum and sum others didnt notice no diff. but the difference i noticed seemed to go away more as it was jarred up longer(cured) 
  i also read somewhere bout how magnesium had a big impact on teh end product as far as the way it burns etc.. as well as nitrogen :confused2: but idk lol.
  i am wonderin botu the use of cleansers liek flora kleen in the final flush process. the end product of the one i used FK on vs teh other of liek strain just water the one wwit FK had liek no taste at all. but was hella smooth smoke tho. smoother than the one flushed wit water plain. but it had more flavor than teh one flushed wit flora kleen. 
  stoney didnt you post somewhere teh explanation of how/why you beg to disagree ont he whole flushin beneficial to flavor etc thing. i mean liek the process of the plant itself and its uptake of nutrients etc all the way up until teh end product...
  i recall readin somethin on here somewhere in ont he debates over flushing before harvest.

:48:


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## zipflip (Aug 26, 2009)

:48: well, right now im flowering all clones and all same strain except for one. but im a flush sum this next harvest and some not again i guess an see.


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## zipflip (Aug 26, 2009)

> The nutrients don't make it into the buds. Never have, never will. The plant converts the nutrients into plant sugars as they leave the main stem.





> The nutrients do not go beyond the main stem and into the leaves and flowers.



so then do you think maybe its the higher levels of plant sugars that leave the main stem and shoot into the leaves an buds like was said that causes the harshness  .....??
 i know sugar burns somethin funky on its own tho im sure the plant sugars in mention arent liek the table sugar ya use on ya breakfast cereal... lol
  but maybe thats wat started the myth or sprung the misundrstood myth behind it. or not so a myth but the reason behind the flushin process. "to eliminate nutes in the end product"  when really/technically flushing would prevent nutrient uptake into the main stem which would like you stated bout it pushin out the sugars then and  thus hinder the levels of plant sugars leavin the stem and into the leaves an buds.
  im not statin this my opinion here. just merely wondering ...


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## StoneyBud (Aug 26, 2009)

zipflip said:
			
		

> so then do you think maybe its the higher levels of plant sugars that leave the main stem and shoot into the leaves an buds like was said that causes the harshness .....??
> i know sugar burns somethin funky on its own tho im sure the plant sugars in mention arent liek the table sugar ya use on ya breakfast cereal... lol
> but maybe thats wat started the myth or sprung the misundrstood myth behind it. or not so a myth but the reason behind the flushin process. "to eliminate nutes in the end product" when really/technically flushing would prevent nutrient uptake into the main stem which would like you stated bout it pushin out the sugars then and thus hinder the levels of plant sugars leavin the stem and into the leaves an buds.
> im not statin this my opinion here. just merely wondering ...


 
In my opinion, Plant sugars are necessary for the production of resin and THC. In my opinion, if you shut off the plants capability to produce plant sugars, then it will negatively affect the production of resin and THC.

IF by doing so, it did actually make it smoke better, In my opinion, the result would be that you would be smoking less THC than you would have been had you left the plant alone.

Edited to make clear that what I've written is only my opinion. - Stoney


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## 2Dog (Aug 26, 2009)

saves me work .....Im all for it. no flushing... god Im lazy. also saves water.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 26, 2009)

2Dog said:
			
		

> saves me work .....Im all for it. no flushing... god Im lazy. also saves water.


 
Flushing helps if you have a case of overfeeding resulting in salts building in a dirt grow.

If the overage of salts is harming your plants, then the only way to resolve that is to flush them back out of your soil.

In hydro, after adjusting the nutrient strength in the reservoir, the first run of the pump will flush any nutrient solution in the grow chambers back into a more diluted solution. Flushing in hydro happens with every pump run.


Edited by Stoney to remove unproven claims.


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## Hick (Aug 26, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Flushing DOES HELP if you have a case of overfeeding resulting in salts building in a dirt grow.
> 
> If the overage of salts is harming your plants, then the only way to resolve that is to flush them back out of your soil.
> 
> ...



EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion.. "if" their opinion is of that that it produces smoother smoke or cleaner burning, "so be it". 
 I no of no "blind tests" that disprove it.. Any citations of such?
"I" don't see 'your' anecdotal evidence as any more correct/valid than anyone elses. 
 I'm not going to allow another pissing match over opposing "opinions" on the same subject that ha been rehashed over and over here.  If _anyone_ has undeniable 'proof' one way or the other, I would love to see it also. Otherwise, it is only personal opinions, experiences being expressed, nothing more.
You say prove me wrong.. I say prove your right.. Show me a "blind test" disproving flushing, please..

 "Personally" I have done it both way, on different occasions, with different nute regimes. Both chemical and organic(semi).. 
 I "have" seen with my very own eyes, joints that nearlly refused to burn, left a long black hard ash. "I" _blamed_ it on over fertilization with miracle grow.(salts..???) Was I right??..  Was "that" the reason, and the sole reason..??   I can't say, but then again, neither can you. Unless you have one of those "blind tests".. _documented_ with miracle grow fetilizers ...(and if you did, I'm pretty confident that you would have dragged it out before now) 
I *don't* usually flush using FF products, and I see no ill effects. 
 I'm not arguing the point, only bringing up discrepancies that "I" have observed. I can't see a "benefit" from starving a plant either. 
I'm not saying "flush".. I'm not saying "don't flush". 
I'm saying it is a personal preferrance, and person grow methods, not unlike organics or chemical fertilizers, enhancers, ect.  
Hydroponic plants are subject to nearlly immeadiate reaction to nutrient changes, so I understand. But that is just not so in that nasty o' dirt. Dirt has the ability to store the nutrients and can be used as the plant finds need for them. Far more than enough to feed a plant for two final weeks of life.
I am NOT saying you're 'wrong' stoney, but what I am saying, is you have not proven yourself absolutely, indisputably, "right".. IMO.  But you're asking others to.


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## painterdude (Aug 26, 2009)

....well put Hick....I am a dirt grower, Fox Farms for the first time, and I appreciate the explanation.....pee-dude


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## Mutt (Aug 26, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> I *don't* usually flush using FF products, and I see no ill effects........But that is just not so in that nasty o' dirt. Dirt has the ability to store the nutrients and can be used as the plant finds need for them.



Being organic or at least mostly organic does make life simple don't it  Let the plant grab what it needs and leave the rest.


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## BBFan (Aug 26, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> By depriving the plant of nutrients, it makes the plant produce hormones that will result in the switching from making THC and resin, to plant survival.
> 
> Starvation before harvest lessens the amount of THC in the final product.


 
Stoney-
Can you point me to some articles/sources for this info?  I'd love to read more.

There's no thanks button, so THANK YOU.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 26, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion.. "if" their opinion is of that that it produces smoother smoke or cleaner burning, "so be it".
> I no of no "blind tests" that disprove it.. Any citations of such?
> "I" don't see 'your' anecdotal evidence as any more correct/valid than anyone elses.
> I'm not going to allow another pissing match over opposing "opinions" on the same subject that ha been rehashed over and over here. If _anyone_ has undeniable 'proof' one way or the other, I would love to see it also. Otherwise, it is only personal opinions, experiences being expressed, nothing more.
> ...


Sorry Hick, I won't mention it again on the site. I've edited the posts that I could and deleted the ones that I said anything in that I can't prove or am too lazy to prove.


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## Hick (Aug 27, 2009)

Well stoney, my intention was not to piss you off. But the "blind test" .."prove it" .. challenge should be equally appropriate for both sides of the argument.."IMO".
  I can't argue against your point with any scientific documented tests. BUT.. If fertilizers/nutrient cannot, do not affect the way that I have seen some burn, (black, crackle 'n pop,) What does it??  What makes that hard black "clinker" in the bottom of a bowl?
  Surely you have seen the kind of 'burn' that I'm talking about. ?? "Something" effects it? Causes it.. "I" don't know what or why, I only know it occurs. And it has long been contributed to nutrients. Maybe it is a 'myth'. 
I admittedly have no 'proof' that it is chemical nutrients, over nutrient, lack of flushing, ect. 
I just feel that a 'blanket statement', declaring flushing non-beneficial, is 'just' as difficult to prove as saying 'every grow' _must_ be flushed. 
  I fully understand that 'starving' a plant at any juncture can not improve the "plants" health. That only makes sense. But can too much, or not enough, effect the burn-ability? 
I kinda' think the whole 'flushing' practice may have came about from soil grows. And really not so much "flushing", as simply running plain water and allowing the soil to be leeched of the nutrients.  
Dammit man!.. you know this ain't my first bbq, but I've never claimed to know it all either. 
Give "me" something to contribute that "clinker" to, other than what is in the plant.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 27, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> Well stoney, my intention was not to piss you off. But the "blind test" .."prove it" .. challenge should be equally appropriate for both sides of the argument.."IMO".
> I can't argue against your point with any scientific documented tests. BUT.. If fertilizers/nutrient cannot, do not affect the way that I have seen some burn, (black, crackle 'n pop,) What does it?? What makes that hard black "clinker" in the bottom of a bowl?
> Surely you have seen the kind of 'burn' that I'm talking about. ?? "Something" effects it? Causes it.. "I" don't know what or why, I only know it occurs. And it has long been contributed to nutrients. Maybe it is a 'myth'.
> I admittedly have no 'proof' that it is chemical nutrients, over nutrient, lack of flushing, ect.
> ...


 
You were correct in that I can't claim an absolute without testing as well.

Whenever a "new" idea is presented in the Scientific community, it's always presented as either nothing more than an idea, as you have done in the quoted post, or as a tested, (using the appropriate testing such as Double Blind Testing), method which can't be denied without first disproving the results of the testing.

My beef is with the flushing for any reason other than to rid soil of it's overages and bring it back to a non-toxic state, being stated as fact. Proven fact, because someone "feels" it's right from smoking some weed from a batch that they already know the conditions of.

The very principles of how plants work are talked around by many who advise others to use flushing. They talk about solids being absorbed into the flowers. That simply doesn't happen, as stated in every text involving known facts of plant processes.

Perhaps Marijuana has passed the known values of Botany and is now doing something that would have been impossible in last years textbooks. Who knows. I sure don't. In that, you're perfectly correct in chastising me for stating absolutes without testing.

I'll be much more aware of what I post in the future.

Thank you for pointing that out to me.


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## NorCalHal (Aug 27, 2009)

That was the BEST Civil argument on flushing I have ever seen!

Props to both Hick and Stoney for keepin' it civil and showing respect to each other! 

I only wish that more members could take example of that, myself included!


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## Growdude (Aug 27, 2009)

The sole fact that there is so much debate about flushing only proves there is no one way, right way to go about your harvesting, if there was we would all know it and do it.


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## Cass (Aug 30, 2009)

2Dog said:
			
		

> awesome info thanks! passing it back pp. :48:


 
No doubt, I'm happy to hear that others don't find it necessary to flush!


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## The Hemp Goddess (Aug 31, 2009)

My personal experience:  

Well, a while back I had 4 girls of the same strain, growing at about the same pace.  I decided that I was going to give 2 of them plain pH'd water for the last week and 2 of them a nute solution about 800 ppms.  Well, I don't quite know how I was so stupid, but one of them got a nute solution over 1600 ppms and was dead within 12 hours.  I harvested her and put her in to cure.  The other 3 girls were harvested 6 & 7 days later.  I can say that I see very little difference in the way that they taste and the way they burn.  The girls harvested early (with the huge dose of nutes gives) a little more up high, but (after a 3 week cure) the smoke is not harsh and burns well.


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