# need some advice!!!



## fumanchu (Mar 21, 2006)

hi guys...i got this crop that started going bad on me over the(friday) weekend...the ph went too low...didnt checked it for like only 2 days and all of them starting wilting and drooping with brown and black stains on the fan leaves.. by now(monday) some of the fan leaves are drying and falling off..the question is: is it worth it trying to help surviving this crop??? or should i start again??? is like 40 sum plants...believe me guys i really regret not checking on that ph....just wanna give an idea of the system and by the way am a 1st time grower..ebb and flow system..res.30gal....water heater and pumps on reservoir to keep nutes moving around...400w mhalide wi cool reflector... i changed the water when i came home friday and adj. ph..now this is the thing.... the getting from bad to worst process stop, and the growing tips are coming out nice and healthy but they been in veg. stage for 5 weeks...u see want am trying to say??? am thinking it might take another 4 or 5 weeks on veg to get to flowering...anyhints and advice from all of you would be greatly appreciated.....thanks...


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## moth (Mar 21, 2006)

check your resover,make sure the water heater isnt burning it,u totaly sure its your ph,marijuna is always worth saving,even though your plants in bad condition,you can still yeild a great crop.those leaves are going to die in flowering.have you treid pruning your plants ,they may be growing a desease ,that spreads kiling the leaves slowly.they dont look tht bad for a first grow.ive seen 10 times worst,and still yeilded a crop worth smoking.i also suggest you get some super thrive and some water treatment


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 21, 2006)

fumanchu said:
			
		

> hi guys...i got this crop that started going bad on me over the(friday) weekend...the ph went too low...didnt checked it for like only 2 days and all of them starting wilting and drooping with brown and black stains on the fan leaves.. by now(monday) some of the fan leaves are drying and falling off..the question is: is it worth it trying to help surviving this crop??? or should i start again??? is like 40 sum plants...believe me guys i really regret not checking on that ph....just wanna give an idea of the system and by the way am a 1st time grower..ebb and flow system..res.30gal....water heater and pumps on reservoir to keep nutes moving around...400w mhalide wi cool reflector... i changed the water when i came home friday and adj. ph..now this is the thing.... the getting from bad to worst process stop, and the growing tips are coming out nice and healthy but they been in veg. stage for 5 weeks...u see want am trying to say??? am thinking it might take another 4 or 5 weeks on veg to get to flowering...anyhints and advice from all of you would be greatly appreciated.....thanks...


How often and how long are you running your pump to the plants? What type of nutrients are you using? I run my pump on a schedule of 1 hour on, two off. 24/7.

If you adjusted your pH on Friday, what was it after you adjusted it and what was it when you noticed the plants curling and losing color? You should be aiming at 6.5


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## fumanchu (Mar 21, 2006)

well after i changed the water on friday, i could tell that they werent getting any worst than they were on friday..the growing tips that are just coming out they look nice and green without any spots  or stains....the nutrients that i use is this 2 part formula call liquid earth nutrients systems by future garden....here is a link to it.plz let me know what u think about this nutrients...

http://www.futuregarden.com/nutrition/index.html

grow and vigor......it seeem it work pretty well for the first 5 weeks but then i didnt check the ph  for  2 days and all hell broke looose....i always try to aim the ph between 5.5 to 6.5...the water heater is like the ones for aquariums and it keeps the water nice and warm...i live on a eastern state so still lil cold overhere...the pumps come on every 3 hours for like 2 hours every session...it seems they grow faster wi longer periods of watering instead of 6 or 7 times per day with 15 to 30 min. sessions..i experience this wi 3 plants i started on a ebb and flow system that it can hold for up to 8 plants...this is a lil bigger system....at nights i try not to water as much...anything that i left out let me know...and thanks for the advice guys...its well appreciated!!!!!


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## fumanchu (Mar 25, 2006)

hi hopper..just to give an update on what i did..there were 2 or 3 plants that were dying so i took them out and i put it on another system and the 8 that were on that same system and pass them to the big tray were i have the rest...thas why some of them look bigger and healthier that the others...most of this plants were damaged by low ph....you can see on the stem of sum of them, they dont have any fan leaves, just the growing tip and everything below it is pretty much empty but the shoots are still coming out slowly...my nutes are very unstable, the ph changes every day at high rates... i can tell that the nutes work good because the plants were very bushy and tall for like 4 or 5 weeks...but the ph went too far down for a long period of time..let me know what u guys think...thanks..


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## Biffdoggie (Apr 4, 2006)

Have you sprayed them with anything? Just trim all the stained/dead/dying stuff off and see if they'll catch up, they probably will, they're a good size. Maybe some clearex just to make sure it's not a wierd build-up or burn or something. Do you have a PPM meter? A lot of times the mix ratio on the bottle will be too high also.


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## Biffdoggie (Apr 4, 2006)

Have you sprayed them with anything? Just trim all the stained/dead/dying stuff off and see if they'll catch up, they probably will, they're a good size. Maybe some clearex just to make sure it's not a wierd build-up or burn or something, maybe just some clear for a couple days. Do you have a PPM meter? A lot of times the mix ratio on the bottle will be too high also.


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## fumanchu (Apr 4, 2006)

thanks for the advice biffdoggie...i did took some of the fan leaves out just because they were dying and drying, and i left some of them with the leaves because they do provide energy and the stems were very weak at some point..after a good weeek they all started to grow again..i think the whole issue with them was the ph was really low for like 2 days straight cuze after that nothing else happens...so they were pretty much on a survival mode....what i problably be doing next is to switch the light cycle to 12/12 so that they can start flowering..i got more pics so you can see them....let me know what u think...am open to any advice!!! also the tallest plants that i have on one corner is the only female i have..(well i just found another female today hahaha..its on the pics)the big female is like 3 feet tall and am cloning off of it but shes getting to tall...how can i keep it from getting that tall??? cuze shes taller than the others and i gotta keep the lights a lil higher just beacuse of her.....i heard about topping off but am not quite sure...any help?? and by the way is my first grow....thanks for the help guys!!!


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 4, 2006)

The pH you should attempt to stabilize at is 6.5

You should never go outside 6.2 to 6.8

To do so, as you have surmised, causes each of the problems you've had.

Get that puppy up to 6.5 man.

Give em two weeks of that real steady and they'll perk back up and take off again.

Good luck man!! Good to meetcha.

Also, something has to be causing the pH fluctuation. It's not normal.

I use a 3 part mix of General Hydroponics "Flora" nutes in my ebb and flow. The stuff is damn good. I just completed an entire crop with it and never even checked the pH once. From previous crops, I've noted that using this stuff with fresh water, (no creek water), the pH stays constant as hell. I do have to use the Hard Water version of their "Micro" nute, but it stays right at 6.5 without doing squat to it.

You mentioned heating your reservoir water. How warm is that water? 75 degrees is a real good temp to set it for. No warmer. I don't use any heat. My reservoir is in the master bedroom of my house. It stays the same temp my feet do on the floor. I've never had a problem with it.

Good luck to you man.



EDIT: Yes, I stay in the guest room. Nothing is too good for my ladies!


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## Biffdoggie (Apr 4, 2006)

I've been using the General Hydro "flora-nova" and kool bloom mix and it has been working great. Super concentrated though, the mix ratio on the bottle is off.


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## fumanchu (Apr 4, 2006)

hey stoneybud.....for nutes am using this 2 part formula (grow and vigor) from this hydronics store close in the area and is actually their own line of products, and since i bought almost everything for my system from there i figured i should try them..not again....the ph is crazy....u brought a very good point about why is it so unstable...i dont know why...the only thing i thought about off is that the reservoir is plastic clear, but is right underneath the tray so it doesnt get any light..so far thats the only thing i can think off...am keeping the ph between 5.5 and 6.8.... am definetely gonna aim towards 6.5..the water heater keeps it between 70 and 75 degrees and i need it because it gets cold upthere...once the summer comes around i be taking it off...its still a lil too cold in the eastern coast...am changing nutes am going back to what i was using before,  this ones are more stable than the other and its also a 2 part formula named "millenium super single grow"and a plant energy thas has "Tricarboxylic Acids", a lil expensive but it works very well for now....   you can check the nutes at this link http://www.hydroponicgarden.com/ , but i gotta look into that problem wi the ph too..anyway thanks for all the advice, i be posting pics with updates on how they doing, am really happy and relieve to know that i didnt have to start all over again man...thanks you guys!!!for real..


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## fumanchu (Apr 4, 2006)

hey biffdoggie....a lot of people have told me and i have read stoies of growers that have used general hydro nutes and it when prety well...but i havnt try them yet...for my next crop am definetely looking for that....i keep u posted!!2 females baby!!! lol...


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 5, 2006)

fumanchu said:
			
		

> the only thing i thought about off is that the reservoir is plastic clear, but is right underneath the tray so it doesnt get any light..so far thats the only thing i can think off...am keeping the ph between 5.5 and 6.8


I think you may have found the problem. The clear container will grow microscopic algea if ANY light is contacting the reservoir. Cover that puppy with a blanket, some foil, paint, or cotton. It doesn't matter what you cover it with, cover it. NO CLEAR CONTAINERS WITH HYDROPONICS. EVER.

I have no doubt that it's the cause of you pH fluctuations.

Aso, the pH is 6.2 to 6.8

NOT 5.5 TO 6.8. IF YOU DROP BELOW 6.2 YOU ARE HARMING YOUR PLANTS.

Stop thinking about 5.5. Whoever told you that is wrong. Wherever you read it, it's wrong. 6.2 to 6.8, watch my lips..... 6.2 to 6.8


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## massproducer (Apr 5, 2006)

hey stoney, why are you using such high PH's. I would never go higher then 6.5 in any hydroponic or soiless mixture. I have never heard of people using a ph of 6.8 for hydroponic growing, that is what is best used for soil, but soil and hydro have different ph requirements.

I use a ph of about 5.5-5.8, This is what is recommended for hydro and soiless. At above 6.5, you can have problems with Phoshphorus, boron and manganese

Here are 2 seperate nute charts to show this.


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 5, 2006)

massproducer said:
			
		

> hey stoney, why are you using such high PH's. I would never go higher then 6.5 in any hydroponic or soiless mixture. I have never heard of people using a ph of 6.8 for hydroponic growing, that is what is best used for soil, but soil and hydro have different ph requirements.
> 
> I use a ph of about 5.5-5.8, This is what is recommended for hydro and soiless. At above 6.5, you can have problems with Phoshphorus, boron and manganese
> 
> Here are 2 seperate nute charts to show this.


You bring an interesting point to the discussion. I've been to a couple of botanist conventions that the subject almost came to blows between various opinions and results of lab rats, (techies in botany).

The truth of the matter belongs in defining the exact stage of growth, light, types of nutrients and even barometric pressure and pests.

Once each of the variables involved were defined to an absolute, each and every botanist will tell you an average of 6.5 Potential Hydrogen, (pH), is the most likely to sustain plants in all conditions.

If you want to minimize node spacing and maximize vegetative growth, or minimize vegetative growth and maximize flowering, you can adjust the pH to adjust the plants uptake of nutrients to accomplish this.

The various types of nutrients also play an important factor in plant growth. Many nutes come in several different types of processing to arrive at the end product.

6.5 works best for me using the nutes that I use and the water I use from my well.

Using distilled water and adjusting the pH to 5.5 each day may maximise the overall plant growth, but stretching in vegetative growth will be likely and poorer flower count will also be a problem. Increasing the pH to 6.5 will resolve both of these issues.

Edit: Also, the "tables" available are many, and many of those tables tell different tales. There are at least three major plant hydroponic nutrient tables that are each widly used that disagree wildly in some areas. If you find a group of plant people who agree on a set nutrient table and pH, please let me know who these nice people are. I sure haven't found them.

I'm stating only what has worked best for me over the years. I'm not challenging your knowledge. God knows at least half the people in the plant world would agree with each of us.


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## Weeddog (Apr 5, 2006)

Thanks Stoney,  now I'm really confused.


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## massproducer (Apr 5, 2006)

I understand totally, and totally agree with you stoney, and obviously you are growing some nice buds, based on your pics 

No arguements here , I just wanted to let everyone know what worked best for me, but I do use a different nute brand then stoney, as I use advanced Nutrients- 2 part sensi grow a+b and sensi bloom a+b, plus some other additives from the advanced nutes line.

Good stuff, check it out.

http://www.advancednutrients.com/an_canada/index.html


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## Mutt (Apr 5, 2006)

Ok all three of you got rep for this one. I'm with weedog. I'm confused. hahahaha.

Man stoney is tryin to get me to go hydro. Now you all got me  .
but oh well learn something new everyday. by the time that PH chart thread is done its gonna have 50 charts. one for each kind of nute/temp/the way your holding your toungue  . hahahahaha.
So let me get this right. PH will vary due to nuts, temp, strain, and other variables pretty much gotta make it work for the method. Am I close?

So would PPM and EC the only way to truly keep it accurate?


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 5, 2006)

Ok, everyone has to realize that being a botanist isn't easy. It's one of the professions where only a few gain international recognition as such.

If understanding the complexities of plant action and re-action in regards to potential hydrogen, were easily understood, hell, we'd all be botanists.

I've had the pleasure to meet quite a few of them, and I must tell you, they are truly fascinating to listen to when they realize that their audience is a sincere pupil.

The variables that can be modified in MJ's specific example are in the thousands. Combinations of events altered systematically to evolve with the plants true condition at any given moment.

Check lists by the hundreds are used in experimentation with plants. It's truly fascinating to see the methods used and the records kept.

In regards to MJ, the simplest method of finding a "good medium" in growing a particular strain to specific conditions is to just do it. Start with the median data and work outwards from there.

Your conditions, your water, your variables. Test and re-test until you know you've found the conditions that are most favorable for your conditions.

Common sense. A large measure. If the plant looks really healthy, it probably is. If it looks like it's on death's door-step, then it probably is.

It's the in-between that causes all the mystery.

My best advice?

Learn to clone very well. Then, use hell out of that knowledge to try a hundred variations of your own. That's the fun part. If some die, others won't. Some will seriously take off like bandits and you'll have it written down as to what you did to make that happen.

Then, do what all good scientists do. What they must do.

Prove it over and over.....

With MJ, that's the payoff !!!!!


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## Weeddog (Apr 6, 2006)

Well, I gonna creep my pH up a notch and see what happens.   I respect info from an experienced grower such as Stoney...  even a ph of 6.8 is still slightly acidic.


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## massproducer (Apr 6, 2006)

A ph of 6.8 is almost neutral, but you should do what works for you. I do agree with 6.5, as I let my ph creep up to 6.3, but 6.8 seems rather high for plants grown hydroponically. but as I said whatever works for you.

When the pH is not at the proper level marijuana will lose it's ability to absorb some of the essential elements required for healthy growth. For all plants there is a particular pH level that will produce optimum results. Marijuana likes it's hydroponic solution to be 5.5 to 6.1 and soil to be 6.3 to 6.8. Although most plants can still survive in an environment with a pH of 5.0 to 7.5.​If the pH is too high, marijuana suffers from a lack of iron, zinc, manganese, copper and boron. If the pH is too low, it lacks phosphoric acid, calcium, and magnesium. At lower pH (more acidic) ranges, diseases can thrive. Normally, plants tend to take up more acidic elements, causing pH levels to increase or drift up the scale.​Now, from my understanding of this is, you should let your hydroponic solutions 'drift' up to 5.9 to 6.0 for hydroponic systems and for dirt grows let it drift up from 6.3 to 6.8 to allow the Magnesium to be available without the addition of Epsom salt (which results in EDTA lockouts because we are adding too much Magnesium.)​


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## massproducer (Apr 6, 2006)

"Using distilled water and adjusting the pH to 5.5 each day may maximise the overall plant growth, but stretching in vegetative growth will be likely and poorer flower count will also be a problem"

Stoney
Sorry I did not notice this first, but where did you get this info from.  I have also never ever heard this before.

excess Heat and being root bound causes stretching in veg, as does insufficent light.  I have never had any problems with this before, I actually have some of the tightest nodes I have seen.

Also a poorer flowering count is not caused by a ph in the range that I use.  A poor flower plant comes from an unhealthy plant in a hot grow room, or from your plant being root bound.

I have never experienced any of these things growing in the range of 5.5-6.1

I do agree that it is not advisable to adjust your ph to 5.5 everyday, you have to let it drift up, I just do not let it drift that high, not for hydro anyways.  Now soil is a different story.  I grow in soil from 6-6.7


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 6, 2006)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Marijuana likes it's hydroponic solution to be 5.5 to 6.1 and soil to be 6.3 to 6.8.


It makes no difference what the media is when describing what the MJ plant can use as a "perfect" pH. None what so ever. If the pH of your soil is 6.5 and the pH of your hydro solution is 6.5, the world is exactly the same to the roots of the plant in regards to nutrient uptake.

The reason for this is that the plant is looking at a microscopic view of the world it's in. Molecular pH stability is what it strives for in any particular area of the root system. The other molecules in it's environment don't mean a thing to the root if the immediate pH is what it needs to absorb the available nutrients.

To think that a difference exists is similar to thinking that you will get wet differently if you are in a forest or a parking lot. The "where" of it is irrelevant. You're wet.

It's the same with pH. If the pH is stabilized as much as possible in any media, and the nutrients are available to the plant, the uptake criteria is exactly the same regardless of media.

This is the side of the argument that the other half of the botanical world believes as strongly as does the side that believes what you've said is true.

I see no advantage to debating on something the scientists don't agree on either. I'll wait to see who turns out correct between them.

The wise person will do as I say, and try several methods until they find the one that works best for them.

I heard someone in here one time discuss writing thank you notes to their plant. They obviously believed it might actually do something.

Hell, maybe that persons plants DID grow better after reading the notes !!

Hey MassProducer, peace be with you man. I enjoy discussing things with you. You sound like you've done your homework, but I could suggest reading all of the information available. You'll run into countless "opposites" in "absolutes" that are described in quite a few articles and pubs.

What I like to do is go to the library and pick a subject like "pH Studies" that would be in the "Subject" side of the "Books in print" collection every good library has. You may want to check "Plant" "Botany" and the like also for books that contain "pH" in the title. You'll be surprised at how many you'll find for almost any subject. Then, I like to put a request in at the desk for the "Intra-Library" loan of several of the books at a time. I make a photo copy of the pages so I can scratch out the ones I've read. Then I start reading them. I've found that if I get 10 books on a specific subject, by the time I've read three of them, I start running into familiar information. By the fourth, I start seeing contradictions. Then, the rest of them confirm the "sides" of thought in that subject that exist. It's up to you then as to which "side" you choose to think is correct.

Try it the next time you're at the library. Pick a specific subject and look for "Books in Print". The Librarian will help you look and get you familiar with the method.

Have fun man.

Now I'm taking several tokes and think how funny it will be to me if the side I'm backing turns out to be full of shit next year.

Hhaahahahahahahaa


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## massproducer (Apr 6, 2006)

Hey stoney

I too love to share knowledge and info with you, as you are a very knowledgeble grower and person in general.

As too the issue of soil and hydro, the different ph requirements are because in soil nutrients are not readily availible for aborbsotion. You actually feed the soil which in turn feeds your plants roots. The soil can only take certain nutes at certain PH's. That is why in soil flushing becomes such an issue because the nutes can precipatate out of the soil very easy.
There are also micro organisms that live in soil that do not in hydroponic mediums. These micro organisms break down the nutes and make then availible for the plants roots.

In hydro, none of this happens. In hydro the plants roots are able to eat the actual nutes, they do not need to be broken down.


I found this explaination, it is from *SUNY college of Enviromental Science and Forestry *

pH Affects Nutrients, Minerals and Growth

The effect of soil pH is great on the solubility of minerals or nutrients. Fourteen of the seventeen essential plant nutrients are obtained from the soil. Before a nutrient can be used by plants it must be dissolved in the soil solution. Most minerals and nutrients are more soluble or available in acid soils than in neutral or slightly alkaline soils.

Phosphorus is never readily soluble in the soil but is most available in soil with a pH range centered around 6.5. Extremely and strongly acid soils (pH 4.0-5.0) can have high concentrations of soluble aluminum, iron and manganese which may be toxic to the growth of some plants. A pH range of approximately 6 to 7 promotes the most ready availability of plant nutrients.

But some plants, such as azaleas, rhododendrons, blueberries, white potatoes and conifer trees, tolerate strong acid soils and grow well. Also, some plants do well only in slightly acid to moderately alkaline soils. However, a slightly alkaline (pH 7.4-7.8) or higher pH soil can cause a problem with the availability of iron to pin oak and a few other trees in Central New York causing chlorosis of the leaves which will put the tree under stress leading to tree decline and eventual mortality.

The soil pH can also influence plant growth by its effect on activity of beneficial microorganisms Bacteria that decompose soil organic matter are hindered in strong acid soils. This prevents organic matter from breaking down, resulting in an accumulation of organic matter and the tie up of nutrients, particularly nitrogen, that are held in the organic matter.

*Credits:*
Text prepared by Donald Bickelhaupt, Instructional Support Specialist, Faculty of Forest and Natural Resources Management. Illustration by Robert Schmedicke.

Submission Guidelines (ESF faculty and staff only)



This is turning into a very educational experience


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## fumanchu (Apr 6, 2006)

by the way guys this is a great ******* topic... am loving it right now!!! anyway.. am gonna be doing the same as both of you guys do... just to see if is any difference on how the plants uptake those nutes and how the plants overall look like, and i definetely will let you know guys how they look..now since i was aiming a lil low and  i could never keep it at the range of 5.5 to like 6.0..every time i lower it, by the next day it was already at 6.0 or 6.5... but it stays there for like a couple of days.. am definetely painting that reservoir cuze it looks like thas the whole issue with the ph been unstable... (thanks stoney)..but the point that stoney brought is very true about different opinions is respect to the ph.. i literally spend a good 2 months reading on how to grow this awesome plant and every time and turn from one book to another the ph topic was always different from book to book...but it seems that both ways works well based on you guys experienced and prove of see in it your plants..MAN AM DEALING HERE WITH SOME GREAT BOTANIST!!!!....i wonder what my plants would look like without you guys!!!like shit problably....haha...stoney and massproducer, its my pleasure to meetcha!!! and to all those that have reply one way or another to the thread, thanks...am gonna be switching cycles next week so that i can start sexing my babies....and  before i forget, i found my first female of this crop like 2 days ago..haha...only 2 females and i feel i got a ***** house!!!! lol...thank u again!!!


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 7, 2006)

fumanchu said:
			
		

> only 2 females and i feel i got a ***** house!!!!


We've created a monster!!!

Hahahahaha

Hey good luck on your grow man. I'm looking forward to those pics.


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## Book (Apr 9, 2006)

Not trying to hijack this thread or anything, but it seems this is where all the great Sages are discussing.  My plants are about four inches high with small leaves on the top.  This morning, one looked like it was "bent" in half.  Like it was taking a bow and just snapped!
Now, I have been checking my PH and keeping it a about 6.5, following Massproducer's advice with a two week water change.  Not sure what caused this to happen.  Any thoughts?


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## Zarnon (Apr 9, 2006)

Hey dude,  what's up?  

Ditto on checking the water temp.  Those aq. heaters can run too high.

Ph... man... after all this time I am still never completely sure.  So many opinions,  and it seems we base them on other plant profiles.  Who has really done dope?    I use buffered nutes from Holland which keep it low 6's, but really haven't seen a problem.   I have read everything from 5.5 to 6.5.

In some respects the plants also remind me of oxy starve... are you sure those roots do not sit in unaerated water?


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 9, 2006)

Book said:
			
		

> My plants are about four inches high with small leaves on the top. This morning, one looked like it was "bent" in half. Like it was taking a bow and just snapped!
> Now, I have been checking my PH and keeping it a about 6.5, following Massproducer's advice with a two week water change. Not sure what caused this to happen. Any thoughts?


Tell all of us some more about your system. What type of hydro are you doing? At 4 inches tall, the plants are still babies. They don't need a nute additive yet. If you do decide to use one, use a one quarter strength mix at the most. At that age, a little nutes goes a long way.

Good luck man.


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## fumanchu (Apr 12, 2006)

hey stoney..just wanna give you guys an update on how my babies are doing..i just changed the light bulb to high pressure sodium and i also changed the water and nutes...they a lil big now..i mean compare to what was left over after the aftermath with the ph, is a lot bigger..am sticking to what stoney told me on the ph...am gonna keep it a lil higher than what i used to...6.2 and 6.8...we'll see the results in a couple of weeks...let me know how they look..you see any differences from the old pics??? i also put 8 clones on this other microgarden system that i got.. everything so far is looking good..thanks guys...later fellas!!!!


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## fumanchu (Apr 12, 2006)

forgot to put the microgarden pic...


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## massproducer (Apr 12, 2006)

I am glad that you have found a regimine that works for you, not disrespect you, but you have not actually used my regimine , I will always use 5.5-6.2ish. 

Good luck though bro.


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## massproducer (Apr 12, 2006)

Did you also adjust your lights height? Changing your nutes and water was the best thing because I honestly do not think that PH was your problem now that I look at your original pics, It looks like they are light bleached and heat burned with some nute probs and overwatering probably because of the heat, I do not see any ph problem in those leaves.

That is my bad as I kind of got caught up in the debate over PH's.

The first signs of a ph problem is not lock out, it is curled and/or spotted leaves like this.


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## massproducer (Apr 12, 2006)

I think your problems were more of these natures.

1. Heat stress 

2. Overwatering or 02 starvation 

3. Maybe some underfeeding, but this could be caused by over watering 

I should have paid more attention to the actual problem, instead of debating.  Sorry bro. 

but as I said whatever works for you. 

Good luck and happy growing


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## massproducer (Apr 12, 2006)

The last thing is, are your nutes buffered?  See I do not need to add any PH up or down to my system because my nutes are buffered to their optimal zone.  So when I add nutes the ph of my water is usually around 5.6-5.7, as the plants eat the ph rises a bit because of them using nutes and because I top my rez off with straight tap water which mine has a ph of 7.


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## fumanchu (Apr 12, 2006)

hey massproducer....the only reason i did what stoney told me is because when i started this crop i was actually keeping the ph at the same rate as you...and dont get me wrong, they grew very nice and green without any leaves burn or nothing like that.. i was actually a lil surprise cuze they grew very fast..some of them were like 12 to 14 inches in a matter of 4 weeks... but at the same time am new to all of this...so i rather listen to other expert like you and stoney rather than come up with my own decisions when it comes to this..today when i changed the water and nutes that i bought a lil while ago, as soon as i check the ph (before watering them) the ph was like below 5..so i added some ph up until it went up to 6.0..now, that day when i noticed that the plants were looking like shit, i did check the ph and it was way off...very lowwww...so that was the only thing i could think off that could cuze the plants to look like that..the ph...i adjusted the height on the lights a couple of days after but once i saw that they were getting better, i lower the lights back again...and i left them like that for quite a while and until this day the top leaves dont have any signs of light burn...underfeeding?? u could be right...c02?? i dont have a co2 system but i do have a window like 2 1/2 feet away from my grow room that i keep open sometimes so that the co2 refresh throughout the day....i have a clear reservoir and i think thats what cuze the ph to go crazy...believe me, its not that i dont wanna go the way u told me, its just that am experimenting to see which is the best way to go...i got much respect for you as well as for stoney... i will be going back to the ph that you have recommended...I CANT WAIT FOR HARVEST TIME!!! also, all that debating that you guys were doing, IT WAS ******* GREAT!!!..GOD knows how many people benefit from all this info and knowledge that you guys were sharing...thanks a million!! we be in touch...laterzz..also i got some pics from that time when the plants were starting and when they were dying so you can compare them....peace..


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## fumanchu (Apr 12, 2006)

you can see in one of the pics that the leaves were curling up like you said...the midlle pic is the one am talking about...


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## massproducer (Apr 12, 2006)

No don't change a thing if it is now working,
Stoney knows what he is talking about, I just wanted to recheck you pics in detail because I have never heard of anyone having problems like that from growing in this range, like I said that is how I grow.  I honestly think that your nutes could also be creating the PH swings.  If they are not buffered then they are going to be very hard to stabilize.  Like what I use and what stoney uses are both buffered.  I think he uses General Hydroponics- Flora series, good stuff, this is what I use to use, but now I have switched to advanced nutrients, these are actually formulated for Cannabis.  I wanted to take a pic, but my camera just died.

I geuss curling is not the correct word I should use, the word is really twisted, yeah that is a better word to discribe it. Look at the edges of the leaves in this pic, see how they are twisted in this pic.  

Also I actually ment O2 or oxygen starved, this can happen in high heat situations.  I really still kind of think that heat was a problem, and either over or underwatering, some pics look like overwatering but some looked like underwatering.  A ph problem will not do that to your plant, not that quick anyways.  You will see spotted leaves, with maybe twisted NEW growth.


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## massproducer (Apr 12, 2006)

The clear rez will also only cause ph swings if their is a lot of algae.  The clearness speeds up the algae growth, and algae eats carbon dioxide, which actually makes the ph rise.

PH sure could have been a problem, but I am just not sure if that is what it actually was, because in that pic on the left the leaves look shirviled which usually happens because the leaves are transpiring more then they can eat.


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## Useless (Apr 13, 2006)

I know I am new here to your forums, but let me interject if I may. 

In my experience, Mass is entirely correct. Not saying Stoney is incorrect, but I have found that a Ph set to say 5.5 and allowed to drift upwards to about 6.2 produces the best results. In general. 
It is also my experience to run a slightly lower Ph during veg than flower. During veg I run Ph of 5.5 to start and let it rise. After the 2nd week of flowering I set Ph to 5.8 and let it rise. 
The medium does play a signifigant role in the uptake of nutrients as mentioned by Mass and detailed in the study he provided. (I have seen the same study results before). 

Now as to the original problem - if you are using tap water, do you let sit for 12+ hours to evap the chlorine and ammonia? Doing this will help stabilize the solution and prevnet such drastic Ph fluctuations. 
The best ? asked was is your nutrient formula Ph buffered? If not, it's best to find one that is buffered. I try not use acids to change the Ph. I use additives like Hygrozyme and/or Hydroplex (depending on growth stage) if the base nutrients will not pull the Ph in line. 
Also, let your nutrient solution settle out before you adjust Ph. If you mix your ressy let the air stones churn the solution for about 4 hours before you adjust. 
Last question - did you rinse the rocks? Although the rocks ( at least Hydroton brand) themselves are inert, the clay dust is acidic as it breaks down and will really screw up your Ph range. 
Here's a shot of a garden ran with the Ph as I and Mass have described - 









Well, thats my $0.02. 
Stoney, damn good read too, don't take me as trying to discredit your more than credible statements. :thumbsup: 
Cheers


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## fumanchu (May 8, 2006)

just a lil update on my crop...they 4 weeks into flowering... .on my oldest plant,the top fan leaves are perking up and turning yellow...is it because is reaching the end of its life????anybody with an idea...i thought the lights were too close to the plants but i got like 2 other plants that are as close as that one but no signs as the other one....and thas the only plant that i know its strain, everything else were given to me as amsterdam seeds but no name...anyway..hope you guys enjoy the pics...any advice is well taken...thanks..peace..


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## fumanchu (May 8, 2006)

by the way...the third and fourth pick is the one am talking about..its an ak-48...


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## Biffdoggie (May 8, 2006)

Something's not right with her, four weeks shouldn't be near the end of her life either. Looks like nute burn maybe? What are you doing for nutes?


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## Useless (May 8, 2006)

Actually to me it looks like a Nitrogen deficiency.


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## Biffdoggie (May 9, 2006)

I wouldn't disagree for sure, what is the difference between nitrogen use in veg/bloom? I know they don't need as much in bloom but what kind of difference are we talkin' about?


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## Useless (May 9, 2006)

More than likely the stored N in the plant was used during transition. That's when N usage is highest. The two particular plants he is refering to probably used more of the stored N than the others did. Contrary to some beliefs, plants still use N when in bloom, however it is a lot less than veg and seems to taper off the farther into flower you get. 

As for ratio's of N use in veg vs. bloom, I have no way of gathering or testing that info. Sorry mate.


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## fumanchu (May 9, 2006)

the nutes that i used are from lifecircle products... u can check them here  http://www.lifecircle.com/ssingle.phpand plant energy in form of acids as a stimulantl.. this is from their site...Tricarboxylic Acids overwhelmingly aid in mineral metabolism, nitrogen metabolism, providing energy to drive metabolic processes, fat metabolism, carbohydrate metabolism, amino acid metabolism, carbon dioxide fixation, and overall plant growth..

i also forgot to mention that the plant is almost 6 months old...its been in veg. for the past 5 months and 4 weeks on flowering now...maybe thats why is yellowing at a early stage???? dont know...but what useless explain about the nitrogen, makes a lot of sense...my nutes are 3-4-7... plus the plant energy stimulant....thanks


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