# Simple electrical question



## zem (Jan 18, 2015)

When it comes to electricity, I am always very weary of how I work with it. I always have 2 breakers that cut off both the phase and the neutral current to my grow area. It is the only way that I can free my mind from the danger of wiring anything and be able to do an easy job. I see electricians only use that small testing screwdriver to make sure if it is a phase or neutral and just cut off the phase, and they would only pass the phase through a breaker and never worry about neutral. I have not enough knowledge in electricity, and I worry what if somehow the currents are switched, like maybe some electrician made the mistake while working in the main box or even at the power company's facility, and hooked up the phase in place of neutral? is that not possible? or am 
I only wasting breakers? How do you guys work with electricity safely?


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## Baddestruffest (Jan 18, 2015)

Fortunately the wiring in my house is all simple and each different circuit has its own breaker that is easily identified and as such makes it easy to work on any section of the house.


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## Growdude (Jan 18, 2015)

zem said:


> When it comes to electricity, I am always very weary of how I work with it. I always have 2 breakers that cut off both the phase and the neutral current to my grow area. It is the only way that I can free my mind from the danger of wiring anything and be able to do an easy job. I see electricians only use that small testing screwdriver to make sure if it is a phase or neutral and just cut off the phase, and they would only pass the phase through a breaker and never worry about neutral. I have not enough knowledge in electricity, and I worry what if somehow the currents are switched, like maybe some electrician made the mistake while working in the main box or even at the power company's facility, and hooked up the phase in place of neutral? is that not possible? or am
> I only wasting breakers? How do you guys work with electricity safely?


 
You never use a breaker on the neutral, in residential wiring.

Feeding your panel are 2 "hot legs" and a neutral.
The neutral terminates in the panel on a common bar with the ground wires.
When you plug in breakers into your panel they are connecting to the hot legs by buss bars down the back of the panel.

These "legs" have 240 volts between them and 120 from each leg to the neutral.
There is no connection for breakers to interrupt the neutral only the hot legs, breaking only the neutral will create an unsafe condition since the neutral and the ground share the same common bar. This would allow current to "backfeed" on the ground.

With all that said its not possible to connect a breaker to the neutral.


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## yooper420 (Jan 18, 2015)

Call my good friend down the road a 1/4 mile. He`s a foreman on a construction crew. Have known him for over 25 years and can trust him. He has grown in the past so I don`t have to beat around the bush with him. I do not like messing with electricity. Later. Peace.

PS,
Growdude has a great explanation of electricity.


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## umbra (Jan 18, 2015)

well the reason you don't use a breaker on the neutral is because the neutral and ground are tied to the same point, so if the breaker were there, you could still have electricrity flowing if you contacted any earth ground. The point of having the ground and neutral tied together is redundancy, to prevent being electrocuted.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 18, 2015)

I tell everyone that there is a reason that I am a plumber....If I screw up, I just get wet.  I got zapped one time with a 90 amp line.  I am only here today to talk about it because I was not grounded.  I got one heck of a flash burn on my hand and it burned a hole into my crescent wrench,  Electricity scares me too.  I simply turn the main breaker off if I do not have breakers clearly marked.  I also test the circuit to make sure it is not hot.  

Umbra, my friend who does most of my electrical work calls the neutral the ground.  That confused me until he showed me the breaker box and that the neutral and the ground are tied together.  Then it made sense.


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## Locked (Jan 18, 2015)

Growdude said:


> You never use a breaker on the neutral, in residential wiring.
> 
> Feeding your panel are 2 "hot legs" and a neutral.
> The neutral terminates in the panel on a common bar with the ground wires.
> ...









umbra said:


> well the reason you don't use a breaker on the neutral is because the neutral and ground are tied to the same point, so if the breaker were there, you could still have electricrity flowing if you contacted any earth ground. The point of having the ground and neutral tied together is redundancy, to prevent being electrocuted.



Good info here...thanks guys.


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## zem (Jan 18, 2015)

i must have it misunderstood, when i say a breaker i mean that on/off switch that you have on boards and which turns off when a short circuit happens. i simply pass both main wires, the neutral and the phase each through one breaker. what i worry about is that somehow there will be some switch like from the main box that feeds my growroom and the hot becomes cold and vice versa. I witnessed something, on a plug once, that blew my mind and couldn't get what was that about, that plug stopped working, and when i tested, it looked like i had both holes in the plug lighting up the tester like they are both hot, how that happened is beyond me, and i figured, i might as well cut any contact between my growroom and any electricity , simply by having 2 breakers, for both wires.
as for the ground, i have the main box that feeds my room, properly grounded with a thick wire that goes into the ground. other than that, all my plugs are simply 2 hole plugs with no 3rd ground wires. is that properly grounded current? any more precautions that i must take?


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## umbra (Jan 19, 2015)

You are grounded by the neutral, however the redundancy of having the ground wire is a safety precaution.


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## bwanabud (Feb 6, 2015)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Umbra, my friend who does most of my electrical work calls the neutral the ground.  That confused me until he showed me the breaker box and that the neutral and the ground are tied together.  Then it made sense.



There are some serious misconceptions posted here, in how electrical current flows or works. House fires are one of the major killers in homes today, in this hobby understand electric fundamentals,,,or hire a trusted professional..or die.

*1)*The neutral and common, serve 2 separate purposes. They are not the same, and are not designed as redundancy in function....*more on this subject at the bottom.*
*2)*There is nothing wrong with breaking/switching a common line, though a breaker isn't the correct/safe way to do it. A knife switch box would serve the purpose much safer, it provides a guaranteed method of breaking both lines(hot-common)at the same time...both are "on" or both are "off". A simple knife switch is commonly used in sole purpose Dryer, Range, Air Conditioner circuits. It must be said that switching the common, has basically no merit or value safety wise.
*3)*Remember most circuits are designed to operate at 80% of given breaker size, yet wiring size is dictated by 100% of breaker face value. The 20% difference is overshoot for voltage surge from motor/compressor start up, these ratings are dictated by 70 deg F panel temp....if your room space is hot, the breaker overload rating goes DOWN....so a 20amp breaker(single or double pole) is designed for a constant load of 16amp...a 15amp breaker(single or double pole) is designed for constant load of 12amp. Wire size is dictated by max amperage(breaker face value)and length of wire.
*4)*Residential and commercial voltages can differ, as can certain power companies supply current. This is partially why you see motor/light/device voltage ratings listed as 208-230v, but your true device capicity will be dictated by YOUR particular supplied current....meaning:Manufacturers ** the public with their fan CFM/light/motor speed output ratings, based on the highest usable device voltage...where in reality your performance value, would be dictated by your individual available current.
*5)*Myth:A 220v device uses 1/2 the power consumption of a 110v device. It is NOT cheaper or more efficient to run a 220v light/motor, instead of 110v device...it only saves on wire size, that's it.

*The Common, ground, and neutral wires are NOT the same:*
As simple as possible, what's the REAL difference ?..Most US power companies are using a Y or Delta transformer, meaning 3 hot legs with 1 common. This allows a multitude of available current loads for most customers, for most growers common & ground are used...so let's stick to them.

*Common:Comes off of the transformer, is the return current for the hot leg, has current(feedback)100% time, is used to balance line voltage for consistent feed rate from transformer.

*Ground:Used as a safety, when massive over balance or short circuit cycles to ground(Mother Earth)and faults the breaker. No current flows though the ground as normal operation...it's not considered a part of the apparatus or device.

*Common & ground tied together ???
Why ?, what does this do ?, when should you?, when shouldn't you? This is a little confusing, but VERY important. Most have been mislead as to the function, and safety of this practice.

So now we KNOW that the common & ground are 2 different wires, serving 2 different functions...so why are they tied together ?
*A)*Where the service lines come into your house/building, to your MAIN panel...the common & ground wires CAN be "bonded" together at the same lug bar. The common comes straight off the pole/transformer, the ground generally goes to 2 x 8' rods drove into the ground outside. The return voltage from the common can return to the pole, the ground if short circuited will take the path of least resistance straight to the rods...like a bolt of lightning does through a tree. So mixing/tying the common & ground at the MAIN panel, presents no problem.
*B)*For ANY sub-panel the common and ground wires MUST be separated, that's why separate buss bars are provided in service panels today. Because you (generally)don't have ground rods at sub-panel locations, the ground & common must return to the main service panel to provide said function. If you tie the common & ground wires together, a short circuit through the ground could/will use the common as the return path...thus not kicking the breaker. This essentially eliminates your ground safety, and makes for a serious electrical hazard. 

Remember the common carries current, the ground only should in a safety/faulty event.

*Disclaimer:* My intention is solely to clarify any myths surrounding electrical safety, not to debate/argue/insult any other members. I've attempted in the past to educate members on electrical problems, only to end up in a fruitless peeing battle confusing members more. We all have to take responsibility for advice given here, bad nute advice = bad grow...bad electrical advice = burnt house & possible death. In the end we want all growers to safely enjoy and operate their rooms, but not at the expense of family and loved ones well being.


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## yooper420 (Feb 6, 2015)

This is why I call my good friend down the road.


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## zem (Feb 6, 2015)

bwanabud this is like the best explanation that i ever got. I have a valid reason to break both the hot and common wires, since i have 3 different power meters that relate to my place and an electrician might one day switch the place of these wires without me knowing and may well place the hot in the place of the common. i don't have a knife switch, but i don't see how i might shut off just one breaker without the other, as they are the only breakers that i have for my growroom. + I use a simple screwdriver power tester before i touch anything that is wired. as for the ground, it never made sense to me to have a 3rd wire on every power outlet that i have, and the main panel is properly grounded, so i don't know if i will be safer by using a 3rd wire on every outlet...


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## bwanabud (Feb 6, 2015)

zem said:


> bwanabud this is like the best explanation that i ever got. I have a valid reason to break both the hot and common wires, since i have 3 different power meters that relate to my place and an electrician might one day switch the place of these wires without me knowing and may well place the hot in the place of the common. i don't have a knife switch, but i don't see how i might shut off just one breaker without the other, as they are the only breakers that i have for my growroom. + I use a simple screwdriver power tester before i touch anything that is wired. as for the ground, it never made sense to me to have a 3rd wire on every power outlet that i have, and the main panel is properly grounded, so i don't know if i will be safer by using a 3rd wire on every outlet...



I understand your reasoning, I'd have to see a picture of the breaker setup. A simple knife switch is $20 or so. But as I explained above you DON'T want to eliminate the ground leg, if you have a short circuit or device internally fail(melting motor contacts)...the breaker may not kick,,,this could be a serious fire/safety hazard.

You always want a fail-safe system, then you can sleep deeply at night.


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## zem (Feb 6, 2015)

okay so if i want to hook up the ground leg, it is just a wire that is separate from both hot and common and it goes nowhere, so how do i wire it? do i wire it with the common? if so, then it will be just a second wire going out from the common wire and has a dead end...


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## bwanabud (Feb 6, 2015)

It depends what you're wiring it to, if it's a duplex receptical then theres a green screw to attach it to. If it's a service sub-panel then the grounding buss bar.

You are running no active electrical ground in a room with high voltage, and water being dispersed liberally/regularly ?...just asking 

As I stated, a common and ground serve 2 very different purposes....you need both.


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## 000StankDank000 (Feb 6, 2015)

I couldn't comment on the " common and ground are the same" comment my mind just exploded after 2 months of Advanced refrigeration college.

Bwanabud knows what's up. He is ALOT better at explaining then I


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## zem (Feb 6, 2015)

bwanabud said:


> It depends what you're wiring it to, if it's a duplex receptical then theres a green screw to attach it to. If it's a service sub-panel then the grounding buss bar.
> 
> You are running no active electrical ground in a room with high voltage, and water being dispersed liberally/regularly ?...just asking
> 
> As I stated, a common and ground serve 2 very different purposes....you need both.



where i am, the electrical outlets have 2 and not 3 points of connection. however they sometimes have in them a screw to wire the ground. however, i do not understand where to wire that to. so should i take the wire all the way to the ground connection of the main panel? to simplify the picture, do i need 3 wires coming from the main panel to the growroom? i don't understand anything about this, i mean, the entire building where i am has a big well connected ground wire that goes all the way into the ground, however, all the connections are just hot and common with no ground wires to go to every single outlet. also, it seems like common practice here, as i cannot find the 3 head plugs in any home but still, they take the care and invest in grounding the main panels. so, is this grounding of the main panel useless unless we ground each and every connection? 
i run my growroom the same way that i see it done in my house and elsewhere. i take very good care of raising all wires above ground and on non flammable surfaces like brick walls, and insulated. otherwise, whenever i want to work with electric, i cut off any connection with the electric current, just like working with disconnected equipment. i had in the past felt electric shocks that were minor, and would like to make everything safer if it is possible. now if i know whether my growroom is grounded or not, it would be a good start


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## bwanabud (Feb 6, 2015)

Mr.Zem
1)Do you live in the CONUS ?
2)Do you own the dwelling in which you grow ?


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## zem (Feb 6, 2015)

bwanabud
1) No
2) Yes


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## bwanabud (Feb 6, 2015)

Is your house current 110/220v 60hz ?


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## zem (Feb 6, 2015)

it is 220v im not sure if it is 60hz,


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## 000StankDank000 (Feb 7, 2015)

60 HZ is standard in North America


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