# Ebb N Flow Medium



## LEFTHAND (Jun 28, 2009)

hello to all

i am about to go with an ebb n flow system. diy probally.. my quiestion to all is has anyone used pro mix bx soil as a medium in an ebb n flow??


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## Budders Keeper (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm sure it's possible, but soil is not the way to go in E&F...I would recommend rockwool.


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## phatpharmer (Jun 28, 2009)

I use Pro Mix Bx,  instead of soil, I've never herd of using Pro mix for Hydro? I thought Hydro was plants grown in liquid high in nutrients! Either your confused or I am? Mind you I've never grown hydro or claim to no much about it!

                                                   Phatpharmer


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## LEFTHAND (Jun 28, 2009)

phatpharmer said:
			
		

> I use Pro Mix Bx, instead of soil, I've never herd of using Pro mix for Hydro? I thought Hydro was plants grown in liquid high in nutrients! Either your confused or I am? Mind you I've never grown hydro or claim to no much about it!
> 
> Phatpharmer[/quote
> 
> ...


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## StoneyBud (Jun 28, 2009)

LEFTHAND said:
			
		

> hello to all
> 
> i am about to go with an ebb n flow system. diy probably.. my question to all is has anyone used pro mix bx soil as a medium in an ebb n flow??


I would suggest that you use Hydroton as your media for your ebb and flow system. 

Any soil type media would foul your pump within minutes.

What type of ebb and flow system are you thinking of using or building?

If you can show pics of it or describe it, I'm sure we can all get together and help you develop a good game plan.


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## StoneyBud (Jun 28, 2009)

Perhaps you're thinking of a drip system type of Hydro. You can use a dirt media in that type of hydro.


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## stonegroove (Jun 28, 2009)

if the soil is in pots and the water is just water and the plants are watered about every 6 or 7 days an ebb and flow should be ok, the pots will keep the soil from the pump, you'll probably get some sediment in your res, but it wont clog your pump, i killed my first plants that i got from a friend, they were in soil in pots but i watered them every day in my e+f because i didn't know hydro was different from soil. if everyone says dont do it tho you probably shouldn't


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## StoneyBud (Jun 28, 2009)

The major reason you shouldn't use dirt is because it "drowns" the roots. During the flood cycle, the entire container is totally submerged in nutrient solution. When it drains, the soil is left saturated and in that condition, it doesn't allow for proper aeration of the root mass.

The entire reason for how an ebb and flow system works is it's ability to *briefly* saturate the roots during the "flow" and then as the system "ebbs", ambient oxygen is drawn to the very bottom of the root mass via the vacuum created by the draining of the water.

When dirt is used, it negates the draining, leaving the roots in a saturated condition without very much oxygen.

Of all the media I've seen used over the years, Hydroton seems to be the easiest and most effective. Lava rock is also a good one due to it's high porosity, which allows it to retain nutrient solution in it's pores during the "ebb" cycle *and* fill it's spaces with oxygen all the way to the bottom.

A "Drip" form of Hydroponics will allow oxygen to remain in the media and the drip is never allowed to saturate the root area. Just to moisten it.

The reservoir in a drip system should be aerated well by using "air stones". This brings oxygen to the root system as well and allows the plants to grow to their full potential.


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## fishcabo (Jun 28, 2009)

I'm with Stoney on the Hydroton.  It is relatively easy to work with.


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## LEFTHAND (Jun 28, 2009)

k i will start getting sh1t ready for my next. young family cant afford to "re set up" 
i planned on building a system like i have but smaller its just a table 2 holes water comes in one end and fillls to a certain point and drains pump on a timer runs 15-30 mins a day everyday. 

weird and that sux..... but good to know infromation.. when i was first set up with a table and pump i was told for "soilless soil" pro mix will wrk and is ok... i have done this b4 but as ai mentioned b4 i was told alot of bull durm.... from what i can remember it wasnt to bad fro sedamate in the res..

so i guess thats it in a nut shell.... hooped for another grow lol....

what if one was to mix a sh1t load of peirlite in with the promix??


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## stonegroove (Jun 28, 2009)

i  use hydroton in my e+f, works a treat, my plants are vegged in rockwool cubes, then i bury them in hydroton for flowering


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## JBonez (Jun 28, 2009)

yeah, hydroton owns all, has near perfect air/moisture ratio imo, Rockwool cubes or slabs likely on need to be fed once a day, meaning they are efficient, but do not allow near the air/moisture ratio of hydroton. Plus, ebb&flow forces stale air up and out of the root zone, effectively pulling a fresh supply of air back down into the hydroton.

Im on my first hydro grow ever and i feel like ive been doing it for years, soil is so much more complicated, hydro is so maintenance free, my ph has been stable and fux's beneficially over a week, i just top off with ro water and it self ph adjusts.


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## LEFTHAND (Jun 28, 2009)

well i found a container about 21"w X 30"L what size of res would a guy need.. the hydroton can you get that at any other stores then the grow stores. or internet... does pot size matter as much going with the 1"X1" rockwool cubes and hydroten. 1.75L pots wrk as well?? or 1 gallon?>?

since my grows gonna be a long haul i just intalled a screen and am attempting my first scrog.. lol with out a table this go..
i figure i wil get me sh1t ready then give er a shot.... can one water twice a day with the hydroten?? 15 minutes a feeding once in the morning once at night or is that over kill??​


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## StoneyBud (Jun 29, 2009)

LEFTHAND said:
			
		

> well i found a container about 21"w X 30"L what size of res would a guy need.. the hydroton can you get that at any other stores then the grow stores. or internet... does pot size matter as much going with the 1"X1" rockwool cubes and hydroten. 1.75L pots wrk as well?? or 1 gallon?>?​
> 
> since my grows gonna be a long haul i just intalled a screen and am attempting my first scrog.. lol with out a table this go..
> 
> i figure i wil get me sh1t ready then give er a shot.... can one water twice a day with the hydroten?? 15 minutes a feeding once in the morning once at night or is that over kill??​


Lets make sure what you've asked is answered.

1. Is a 21"w x 30"L container large enough to use as a reservoir?

It depends on how much water is used during each flood cycle and how much is used each day by your plants at full growth.

In my ebb and flow system, it takes 8 gallons of water to fill the four tubs of Hydroton when the system has nothing but the hydroton in it. That means that the reservoir will drop by 8 gallons each time the system fills.

This is important, because what is left in the reservoir is how much your plants depend on without you re-filling or "topping off" the reservoir. You don't want your reservoir to go dry and kill your pump and plants if you go away for a couple of days.

My system uses two gallons of water per/day during full growth. So, after one day, my reservoir will drop by 10 gallons during the flood cycle. 8 gallons to just fill the tubs to the circulation point, and two gallons used by the plants.

After two days, my reservoir will drop by 12 gallons, the third day, by 14 gallons etc.

Here's where you have to calculate how much water YOUR system is going to use to fill and how many plants you'll have drinking water every day AND how many days you want to be able to leave without refilling your reservoir.

First, you need to buy your hydroton and fill your table. Then, block the exit points in your table and fill it to the level that is two inches below the top of the hydroton. How many gallons did that take? This amount, plus the amount in your supply tube and recycling tube is the total amount your system will need JUST to fill itself.

Then, you'll have to calculate how many gallons per/day your plants will need at full growth. 

In 80 *cubic* feet of growth area, my system uses two gallons per/day at full growth.

You can use this as a template for calculating how much you'll need, based on how many cubic feet of volume your plants will take up at harvest size.

How ever you use your system, you need to calculate how much water it needs to fill when the hydroton and pots are in it (if your using individual pots) in the table.

2. Does the size of the pots that are filled with hydroton and then placed into the table, matter?

Yes. Absolutely. If you use individual pots in your flood table, you're restricting your root growth to the pot size unless you modify the pots so the roots can grow out of them. If you do this, then there is no point in using the pots. My personal preference is to NOT use pots. Just fill the entire table with the hydroton and use it as one big container with several plants in it.

If you use pots, then the pot has to be of a height that will allow it to fill within two inches of the top of the hyroton in it. The height of the flood table will dictate how high that is. The only way to go larger at that point is to make your individual containers, (pots), wider and/or longer. The roots will need about two gallons of area to fill for each plant at about 4 feet tall. How large you intend to grow your plants also dictates how large of a root area your plants will need.

I would strongly suggest to a beginner to use no individual containers within the flood table. It adds complication to something you don't need to complicate.

You can grow your seedlings in some one by one inch rockwool until the roots are just starting to show on the exterior of the rockwool cube, and then just place the rockwool cube into the hyroton so that the TOP of the rockwool is two inches below the TOP of the hydroton.

Well, I answered both of your questions. As you can see, there is a little more to using hydroponics than throwing it together and turning it on.

I would strongly suggest that you learn everything BEFORE you start growing, unless you want to risk losing your first crop as a "learning experience". The couple of weeks you read up on what to do might make the difference in success or not.

Here are the first questions you need to figure out:

1. Are you going to use individual containers that are placed into the hydroton? You'll have to decide this before you figure out the next question.

2. How much water does it take to fill your flood table with everything in it except the plants? It has to fill to two inches below the top of the hydroton.

I realize that this is a long post. Hydroponics isn't easy to understand, it's easy to use. Once you understand WHY it has to have certain things, then it becomes easy to use.

Post any questions you have and one of the hydro growers here will help you. I'll look in on this thread every day and answer what you ask if no one else has.

I would wait until you've asked, before buying anything else, because I doubt the reservoir container you've bought is large enough. We'll see after you've figured out how much water you'll need for each fill of the flood table.


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## JBonez (Jun 29, 2009)

how big is your light? Proportionately, here is a great rule of thumb, 

for every 500w of light being used, plants will be happy with a res of 20g.

For example, i run a 1000w for one of my flowering chambers, it has a 40g res.

I also have another flowering chamber that runs a 400w hps, this has a 20g res.

you can go smaller than whats recommended, but i fear your ph,ec will be bouncing around and require more attention more often.


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## smokingjoe (Jun 29, 2009)

phatpharmer said:
			
		

> I use Pro Mix Bx, instead of soil, I've never herd of using Pro mix for Hydro? I thought Hydro was plants grown in liquid high in nutrients! Either your confused or I am? Mind you I've never grown hydro or claim to no much about it!
> 
> Phatpharmer


 
By loose definition all soil growers will grow via Hydroponics from the outset or at least part way through their cultivation.

The definition seems to have changed over the years but in all the old media and text I've read defines Hydro as the provision of nutrients via water.  

That said there is no way I would grow soil with flood drain, run to waste ok, but how on earth in a recirculating system would you keep the debris out of the pump?  You would need a screen on the return fitting, and another pre-pump.


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## JBonez (Jun 29, 2009)

smokingjoe said:
			
		

> By loose definition all soil growers will grow via Hydroponics from the outset or at least part way through their cultivation.
> 
> The definition seems to have changed over the years but in all the old media and text I've read defines Hydro as the provision of nutrients via water.
> 
> That said there is no way I would grow soil with flood drain, run to waste ok, but how on earth in a recirculating system would you keep the debris out of the pump?  You would need a screen on the return fitting, and another pre-pump.



you wouldnt, soil should only be watered enough to last a day or two, if you want your roots to stay aerated and happy.

I used to think that watering until i saw runoff was a good thing, it really isnt. 

If i ever go back to soil, i would feed EVERY day, diluted down of course, and add some kind of beneficials like vermi t so i was making use of my nutrients potential.

Im a pretty educated guy, and when i say Soil is much more "Involved" than hydro, i mean it quite literally saved me about 6 hrs of weekly "growing chores".

Wont be going back any time soon.


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## StoneyBud (Jun 29, 2009)

smokingjoe said:
			
		

> The definition seems to have changed over the years but in all the old media and text I've read defines Hydro as the provision of nutrients via water.


The most common phrase I've run into over the years in reference to hydroponics is "Soilless Gardening". In all the systems of hydroponics I've seen or read of, none used soil. Even those who chose the drip method of hydroponics used some sort of inert media.

Attempts using sand with root crops in experimentation were the closest to soil I've seen. I've seen some carrots grown this way and they were awesome in size and appearance. However, you could drive a nail with them and twist them 720 degrees without breaking. The same with potatoes.


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## LEFTHAND (Jun 29, 2009)

hello everyone... first off i would like to say thank you for your help. 2nd i am gonna say i didnt know you could just fill your table..

the 21X30 is the size of the table. not the res.. also 5-6" deep....cuz yeah i was just going to use pots and the hydroton.. but like you stated it restrics roots.. and the sh1tty thing about the container i found is that its clear.. lol no good.... but krylon makes a decent plastic paint...i should be good if its sprayed it black.
i am not going to use seprate containers if its a waste of my time..

i have a pump and all the fittings just need to make a table or find one to fit my box...... and then get me some hydroton.. why hydroton?? can one do this with rock lol... sorry lol i had to ask since u mentiond sand..

JB i have a 400Whps.....


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## LEFTHAND (Jun 29, 2009)

phatpharmer said:
			
		

> I use Pro Mix Bx, instead of soil, I've never herd of using Pro mix for Hydro? I thought Hydro was plants grown in liquid high in nutrients! Either your confused or I am? Mind you I've never grown hydro or claim to no much about it!
> 
> Phatpharmer


 
i am reading doing research to to see if i have to make a table or i will luck out and can get one lol but i stumbled across that...the red lettering at the bottom is more or less what im getting at since i use pro mix bx for a soil less soil... looking for opinions.. and as i see yes you can do multi feedings..

EBB & FLOW - (FLOOD AND DRAIN)






The Ebb and Flow system works by temporarily flooding the grow tray with nutrient solution and then draining the solution back into the reservoir. This action is normally done with a submerged pump that is connected to a timer.
When the timer turns the pump on nutrient solution is pumped into the grow tray. When the timer shuts the pump off the nutrient solution flows back into the reservoir. The Timer is set to come on several times a day, depending on the size and type of plants, temperature and humidity and the type of growing medium used. 
The Ebb & Flow is a versatile system that can be used with a variety of growing mediums. The entire grow tray can be filled with Grow Rocks, gravel or granular Rockwool. Many people like to use individual pots filled with growing medium, this makes it easier to move plants around or even move them in or out of the system. The main disadvantage of this type of system is that with some types of growing medium (Gravel, Growrocks, Perlite), there is a vulnerability to power outages as well as pump and timer failures. The roots can dry out quickly when the watering cycles are interrupted. This problem can be relieved somewhat by using growing media that retains more water (Rockwool, Vermiculite, coconut fiber or a good soiless mix like Pro-mix or Faffard's).


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## StoneyBud (Jun 29, 2009)

LEFTHAND said:
			
		

> why hydroton?? can one do this with rock lol... sorry lol i had to ask since u mentioned sand..


Sand was used a lot during testing of hydro in the 1925-1935 time period. It really isn't feasible.

In my own system, I use half hydroton and half river rock from Home Depot. The hydroton is important because of it's ability to retain moisture between floods. Without it, the plant won't survive a very long power outage. With the hydroton, you can survive a power outage of about 24 hours. The plants will feed from the water retained in the pores of the hydroton. If mixed half and half like I do, you knock that time down to about 12 hours.

If you use the river rock, you have to wash it and take all the small particulate out of it before using it in your system. The smaller junk in it can cause pump failure.


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## smokingjoe (Jun 30, 2009)

> The smaller junk in it can cause pump failure.



I will always install a 13mm or 19mm inline filter available from most major hardware stores and irrigation supply stores.







You only need to clean them out every now and then, but it will prevent pump failure; cheap insurance for a couple of bucks.


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## NorCalHal (Jun 30, 2009)

Here is somepics I took today of a ebb and flo system. Right now it is being used to Veg some Hindu Skunk. 
From the pics you can see the "overflow" fitting, and right next to it is the "flood" fitting under the hydroton.

I use this type of system to veg up plants to a height about 6-12" max.
From here, they will get transfered to 2 gal pots of rockwool. The Flood table is nice because when it is flooded, you can eaisly take out each individual plant without tearing roots. Very effective.

You can also flower with this method, but use less numbers for sure. Different folks do different things, but if I was to flower like this, I would have no more then 10 max in that 4x4 table.

Hope the pics help.


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## LEFTHAND (Jun 30, 2009)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> Here is somepics I took today of a ebb and flo system. Right now it is being used to Veg some Hindu Skunk.
> From the pics you can see the "overflow" fitting, and right next to it is the "flood" fitting under the hydroton.
> 
> I use this type of system to veg up plants to a height about 6-12" max.
> ...


 
how deep is your table?? 5-7" ?? i was thinking 20"w X 30"L X 5-7" deep... 8-10 plants. in hydroton 2x2" rockwool cubes..


just read the 10 max in 4x4... why  is that?/ my box will hold a max of ten plants


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## JBonez (Jun 30, 2009)

Likewise norcal, happens to be a tray full o' skunk as well, lol.

I believe the res should be in total darkness, it is covered, not in this pic but at all times and is a cool 70 degrees with plenty of air and circulation, paramount to keeping solution stable imo.


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## LEFTHAND (Jun 30, 2009)

JBonez said:
			
		

> Likewise norcal, happens to be a tray full o' skunk as well, lol.
> 
> I believe the res should be in total darkness, it is covered, not in this pic but at all times and is a cool 70 degrees with plenty of air and circulation, paramount to keeping solution stable imo.


 
i would like to thank EVERYONE FOR THE PICS AND HELP.....

 is your res sepreate from you room?? if so im gonna gather its just a longer return hose... 

im interested to hear from anyone that has made there own flood table... what they may have used for the table itself.... looking in the area of 20wide by 30 long by 5-7 deep. will use 2 trays if need be....

JB how them tents wrk pretty good??


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## JBonez (Jun 30, 2009)

tents work great, just fork out some dough for high cfm fans.

look at my setup and how many fans i run to keep temps to perfection,

you need these fans man or temps get up there QUICK. Accidentally unplugged my exhaust fan once, and well, it wasnt pretty, over 100 degrees.

so yeah, love the tents, great little mini "environments" just take care to pay attention to detail.

The res is next to the tent, and the piping runs out of the tent.


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## LEFTHAND (Jul 1, 2009)

yeah nah i dont have the $ for them fans. for the tent.... buti like the fact it goes up and comes down just like that... .... lol when i first started off i went away for 3 days and the power must have flickered or something but the breaker blew and yeah i came home to the same thing babies on the ground going why are you doing this to me lol poor girls...


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## viper1951 (Jul 1, 2009)

I have a 24 site ebb & flow system and I use lava rock I get it from a land scapeing place here abouts  then I wash it very well then use it   it's works great and really holds the water so you don't have to run to many cycles a day 
 the plants are really loving it   and it was a lot cheaper the hydroton.  hydroton wasn't bad at price the shipping is what sucked  like I said you have to wash it good first but it's worth it and easy to find and your not seen going into a hydroponics store all the time  just take a 5 gallon bucket and drill a bunch of holes in the bottom of it fill and wash works for me good luck


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## LEFTHAND (Jul 1, 2009)

viper1951 said:
			
		

> I have a 24 site ebb & flow system and I use lava rock I get it from a land scapeing place here abouts then I wash it very well then use it it's works great and really holds the water so you don't have to run to many cycles a day
> the plants are really loving it and it was a lot cheaper the hydroton. hydroton wasn't bad at price the shipping is what sucked like I said you have to wash it good first but it's worth it and easy to find and your not seen going into a hydroponics store all the time just take a 5 gallon bucket and drill a bunch of holes in the bottom of it fill and wash works for me good luck


 
sweet deal.. now isnt the lava rocks a lil big?? or do you like em with som meat lol......


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## viper1951 (Jul 6, 2009)

I like the lava rock it seems to hold them better they don't roll around in the netted pot seem a lot more stable works for me some maybe be against it for some unknown reason   but it really keeps the water there ready for them and they are responding very well good color  the rock I use is about 1 inch to inch and a half in size . I tryed hydroton and I like this better . and I can get right here locally 4 bags of hydroton with shipping was 150.00 plus  1 yard of lava rock was 23.00  , lava rock holds water better and don't have to run my system on to many cycles only 2 per day at any time during the day you can move the surface rock and it's nice and wet under neath so I use it just a suggestion for anyone with money problems like the rest of us


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## LEFTHAND (Jul 6, 2009)

viper1951 said:
			
		

> I like the lava rock it seems to hold them better they don't roll around in the netted pot seem a lot more stable works for me some maybe be against it for some unknown reason but it really keeps the water there ready for them and they are responding very well good color the rock I use is about 1 inch to inch and a half in size . I tryed hydroton and I like this better . and I can get right here locally 4 bags of hydroton with shipping was 150.00 plus 1 yard of lava rock was 23.00 , lava rock holds water better and don't have to run my system on to many cycles only 2 per day at any time during the day you can move the surface rock and it's nice and wet under neath so I use it just a suggestion for anyone with money problems like the rest of us


 
hmmmmmmm really viper.. i like the to save the cash when i can..but what does one do about it being so darn jagged and sharp?? hurts the rooots. and thats not good.. i have to drive an hour to a hydro store lol and im lazy..  but thanx for the tip viper


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## JBonez (Jul 7, 2009)

i could put together an ebb and flow setup big enough to accommodate a 1000w light for less than 150 bucks, kiddy pool, stand made of wood, rubbermaid container for a res, and some cheap subm. pumps.

you can be thrifty and still be a competitive grower, just improvise and copy what you see with the tools and equipment you can find.

gl


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