# My Poor Baby :(



## mindtrip (Sep 29, 2015)

I knew this grow was going too easy.  My girls just woke up from their twelve-hour nap and one of them has this awful discoloring!  The other two seem fine.  They all receive the same light and water and nutes.  General Organics BioThrive Bloom (2tsp per gallon of water) with each feeding.  I'd love some advice before it gets too far, or the other plants develop the same symptom.  Thanks in advance. 

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## Rosebud (Sep 29, 2015)

Can you turn off the led and get a pic under natural light please?


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## mindtrip (Sep 29, 2015)

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## Rosebud (Sep 30, 2015)

Did some nutes get spilled on the leaf? I don't know what that is. Others will be by..Is it on the new growth too?  What soil are you in?


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 30, 2015)

First thing I thought was either nutes on leaf, or maybe you sprayed with lights on or had transpiration on leaves which caused a "lens effect" on the leaf, burning it.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 30, 2015)

I do not believe that Bio-Thrive Bloom is meant to be a stand alone nutrient?  Any time I have used GO products, I have used the entire line and followed the feeding chart.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 30, 2015)

One thing that seems to always hold true is when there is a deficiency or pH issue, or even toxicity(issues that form internally), it occurs in patterns, or quickly forms into a discernible pattern(usually preceded by some yellowing). 
When the damage is caused externally(usually straight to necrosis(browning) without much yellowing) then it shows in randomness and without forming any patterns.

That said, it appears to be "external" like some water or solution got on the leaves and then the light hit them. Or possibly some critters are sucking on them. Typically, deficiencies don't go necrotic that quick in one random location. _However, that doesn't automatically rule out deficiency_. Check them real good for possible bugs and try to see if there is any sign or sweating or solution getting on the leaves. If you can't find anything certain, keep watching them close for a pattern to emerge. 

And I would recommend doing as THG says with the nutrients as I had a friend who used that line and said it was too weak by itself, so its probably best to use both types together.


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## mindtrip (Sep 30, 2015)

Thanks everyone. I'll keep an eye on them - heading home from work now.

It's definitely not nutes, as I water at the base. Nothing goes anywhere near that high, and I do no misting.


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## mindtrip (Sep 30, 2015)

And hopefully I can get to the store soon for the other nutes. And I'm in FFOF.


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## mindtrip (Sep 30, 2015)

Just got home and the other two girls have developed the same issue. 

Should I remove these leaves?  I know trimming in flower is bad, but am I doing more harm leaving them on?


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## Rosebud (Sep 30, 2015)

How many weeks in ffof?


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## mindtrip (Oct 1, 2015)

Rosebud said:


> How many weeks in ffof?



Since they were planted - about seven-and-a-half weeks.


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## yarddog (Oct 1, 2015)

Time to feed


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## Rosebud (Oct 1, 2015)

Yes, that is when the nutes in FFOF run out. . I have not seen the problem you are showing though. I would top dress with worm casting stat and then bat quano for flowering. I don't know your nutes, others do, so maybe you can bring them back that way.
If those were my kids I would repot them in 5 gallon pots with new FFOF. and then top with bat guano for bloom. It think that will pull them out quickly. I would cut off those lousy leaves and start over with the same plants. make sense?


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 1, 2015)

I do think they need more food.  I personally would not though clip the leaves--I like to let them drop on their own.


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## Rosebud (Oct 1, 2015)

I am kinda over keeping near dead leaves on the plant. I have a sneaky suspicion they may drain energy from the plant.  That is just my thoughts on all plants not just pot.  I understand that is not what we learn from marijuana gurus.. I understand their theory and have always gone by that until this year... I am just rebel I guess.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 1, 2015)

Can you get us some more pics of the plants affected(especially the most recent), and then some overall pics so that we can see the full plants from a little distance if possible. Sometimes a close up shot can fool ya about what ya see.


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## mindtrip (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks everyone. Rose, what do you mean start over with the same plants? And is it safe to repot during flower?

I'll get more pics tonight after work, Hushpuppy.


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## Rosebud (Oct 1, 2015)

How far in flower are you?


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## Rosebud (Oct 1, 2015)

I meant if it isn't too far into flower repot it in the 5 gallon smart pots with new ffof.  And i would take of the ugly leaves, but science says not to.lol


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## Dr. Green Fang (Oct 1, 2015)

> but science says not to.



You can do your own science.. not just what you read. So if leaf removal and transplants work for you.. then you've attained a hypothesis, run an experiment and come to a conclusion of the outcome based on your hypothesis. So.... you are doing science!


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## Rosebud (Oct 1, 2015)

Thanks DGF!


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## mindtrip (Oct 1, 2015)

Haha thanks Doc!

I'm about 2.5 weeks in flower.

Here are some updated pics (from about ten minutes ago), LEDs off.  New growth looks good, but this crap is spreading.   And it'll be next week before I can afford to go get more of the GO line.  For the time being, should I up the amount of BioThrive Bloom I'm using? 

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## Rosebud (Oct 1, 2015)

Do you have any more FFOF? I don't know anything about your nute line.


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## mindtrip (Oct 1, 2015)

I've got about a tenth of a bag left - definitely not enough to transplant right now.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 2, 2015)

OK we are beginning to see a pattern here. It looks like all of the issues are happening down low on the plant while up high and new growth is still fine. If you have looked them over carefully, we can rule out bugs, and you say you water/feed from the bottom so that rules out splash damage (that and the fact that it is occurring on multiple plants). So what you need to look at now is which elements are not very mobile in the plants, and which elements are mobile as the lack of one or more of those elements will cause damage down low but not up high.

Also, with the mobility question comes the idea that with some nutrients, if the soil isn't providing it, the plant will rob the needed nutrients from the lower parts to give to the upper parts where the flowers are. Also, notice that the issue didn't show up until they began flowering.

Just from the look of it, I am thinking that you are lacking in available micro nutrients. I am thinking either calcium, or manganese. However, potassium deficiency can also present this way as well. This still leaves us with several possibilities. It may be that the organic nutrient line isn't able to supply enough of what the plants need, and/or the microbe herd in your soil isn't strong enough to process the nutrients at a rate that is needed by the plants at this point. OR, the pH in the soil has gone way off the rail and has interfered with both absorption and microbe activity.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 2, 2015)

I kind of doubt that pH is causing this issue but when a problem isn't obvious, I like to rule out pH as a cause because it is very often the culprit for so many issues. As you are in soil, you need to do a runoff test to check the pH in the soil. To do this you need to get a couple gallons of purified bottled water. This water has nothing in it that will react with the chemistry. You would pour 1 gal through a plant (or enough to get about 1 collected cup of water runoff). You don't have to use so much that you actually flush the plant. This should tell us very closely what the pH is. 

You may have to take the collected water to a hydro store to use their meter if you don't have one, and don't want to buy one. Be sure to do more than one plant. Do at least 2 plants, but keep the water from each one separate so that you get an accurate reading for each plant. This will rule out pH as the underlying issue, or prove it to be the issue.

If you don't want to do the pH test, You can try adding additional nutrients to the soil. I would suggest you get some "micro" nutrients from GH since the GO is from them. Try adding that and see what it does. I believe the problem may be a manganese and/or potassium deficiency is the problem.


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## mindtrip (Oct 2, 2015)

Thanks, Hushpuppy.  Your thoroughness is awesome and very helpful.  A pH test isn't happening just yet...free time to get to the hydro store is scarce, and I have no pen.  Hopefully next paycheck I can run by there next week for more nutes.  Until then, I've increased the dosage.  We'll see how it goes!


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## yarddog (Oct 2, 2015)

I think they are hungry. Mine are looking exactly like that. Going to top dress some work casings tomorrow.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Oct 3, 2015)

Soil


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## mindtrip (Oct 3, 2015)

Thanks yarddog, I'm hoping they recover shortly.  I did trim off the ugly leaves.

And yes DGF, I know, I know...


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## Dr. Green Fang (Oct 3, 2015)

Good for trimming the ugly. I trim LOTS AND LOTS of fan leaves during veg and up to end of week 2 flowering. Exposing the nodes is GREAT! The nodes have smaller fan leaves... when you remove the larger ones, they expose the smaller ones on the ever important nodes!! Sure, when they grow up, you'll have to remove the smaller ones that become larger, but you can worry about that when the time comes  

So.. personally, not only do I remove damaged leaves (don't really get those much now-a-days) but I generally remove 75% of all large fan leaves. Defoliation is *key* especially with LED's!

Keep on keepin' on Mindtrip. :aok:


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 3, 2015)

As you are running organic, I doubt that this is a pH issue.  I really believe that it is a result of only using 1 part of a nute regime that should include about 3-4 things at this stage of growth.  During vegging, the plants do not seem quite as picky if the nutes aren't quite up to par, but it can really show up in flower.  Is it possible for you to pick up some Cal-Mag?  I think that this is the most needed addition to the Bio Thrive.  I did notice in the feeding schedule for the GO products it said that you can double the Bio-Thrive for heavy feeding plants.  So, I say, yes, increase the Bio-Thrive a little bit at a time.


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## mindtrip (Oct 3, 2015)

Thanks Doc and THG.

Got out of work early today, so I'm going by the shop to pick up some stuff.  Should I get Cal-Mag and more GO nutes?  Or one/the other?  I hate to do it, but I'm going to put it on credit.   I'd rather run up a credit card than harm my girls.


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## mindtrip (Oct 3, 2015)

Just left the store, picked up some five-gallon pots, two bags of FFOF and some CaMg by GO. I'll get them squared away tonight. Thank you to everyone for all your help!


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## NiceBud (Oct 3, 2015)

Anybody think a good flush of the soil? Then maybe some plain salzer water for oxygen in the soil and some salt back in to ballance all. Then add some new nutes. Anybody think thats good?


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 4, 2015)

I personally do not think a flush is in order as I believe that this is a nutrient deficiency and not related to anything that can be cured with a flush.  I often go entire cycles and never flush anything.  If you have good drainage, the soil will bring in all the oxygen you need.  Selzter water has CO2 dissolved in it--the roots need oxygen.  I have never added any slats to my grows..in fact we flush to get rid of salts.  What is the purpose of putting salts in the soil and how do you do it?

I think that adding the Ca-Mg is going to make a big difference.  I think that I would also bump up the Bio-Thrive Bloom a bit.


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## mindtrip (Oct 4, 2015)

Thanks as always, THG. I transplanted them into five-gallon pots last night and gave a good watering & feeding of Bloom and CaMg. The girls sleep during the day so I'll check them this evening and see how they're doing.


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## mindtrip (Oct 5, 2015)

A big thank you to everyone who contributed.  The girls are still showing tiny amounts of new brown, but I figure that's to be expected for a little while.  I know changes in soil can take several days to show.  Either way, the spreading of brown has gone WAY down and what little I do see is on older leaves - none on the newer ones.  I'll keep up with the boosted Bloom and CaMg, and I'll post again if something else comes up.


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## mindtrip (Oct 9, 2015)

They're doing it again.   It appears to not be on any of the new growth, but it's not on the oldest, either.  Kind of in the middle.  Again, any advice/suggestions appreciated.  I'm doing CaMg and Bloom and they're in five-gallon pots of FFOF. 

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## yarddog (Oct 9, 2015)

Go look at my cabinet grow thread.  Mine are doing exactly the same. Except worse.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 10, 2015)

That looks like the necrosis is older damage. It may be, if that is some older damage that you didn't see before, that now that they are going farther into flower, the plant is taking nutrients from the older, damaged leaves to feed newer growth in the tops of the plants. They will do that as they age. That is the problem with getting damage during flower. The plant has switched over to flower building and will not focus as much on older leaves that become damaged. Instead, it will rob the available nutrients from that leaf and then discard it, which makes it appear to be a growing issue.

If it is a real issue then it will form a pattern, if not then the leaf yellow-off will be random. Just keep doing what you are doing and watch them for a pattern.


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## mindtrip (Oct 10, 2015)

Thanks, Hushpuppy. I genuinely appreciate your advice.


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## mindtrip (Oct 11, 2015)

yarddog, mine are going about like yours.  It's spreading every day.  Looking at the image chart, I wonder if mine are potassium-deficient?  Maybe phosphorus?  It's showing up on the newer growth now.  

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## yarddog (Oct 11, 2015)

I'm not sure either.  I have been told I may have over fed mine.  That's what I'm going with.   I flushed mine yesterday.  Hoping to see an improvement soon.  My new growth has burned tips now.   

We may in fact be doing the same thing.   Of course, several problems cause the plant to look the same as they do now.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 12, 2015)

I don't know if this is the problem but it may be a contributor. You started in FFOF which has synthetic nutrients in it. I'm not sure if it has any kind of microbes in it. If I was going to use that soil and go organic, I would buy some Tarantula soil inoculant from Advanced Nutrients; [ame]http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Nutrients-Tarantula-Liquid-Fertilizer/dp/B004NF22DQ/ref=pd_sim_86_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=04NCWKPVRHM5C3FEB5CT&dpID=51BtYCOadmL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR123%2C160_[/ame]

This would supply the microbe herd needed to take care of the plants. I would also use a good nutrient tea along with a nutrient base that contains all the important stuff. Sorry I don't have a better or clearer answer.


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## yarddog (Oct 12, 2015)

Hush, so ocean forest isn't a true organic?


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## Rosebud (Oct 12, 2015)

FFOF is organic. It doesn't need anything added for 6-8 weeks unless you choose to top dress with guano's for flowering which is what i do. Worm casting for extra N and Guano for flowering.  I have used that soil for 6 years and have never seen the above problem.


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## mindtrip (Oct 12, 2015)

Thanks, Rose and Hushpuppy.  I didn't realize until yesterday that it can take up to ten days for plants in soil to show a response to their food.  I'm going to hope for the best, and just keep giving them the best I can.


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## mindtrip (Oct 12, 2015)

So I just went in and looked at them, and noticed a pattern: all of the leaves turning bad are under direct light.  The leaves that are in the shade are dark green and beautiful.  Does this mean anything?


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 13, 2015)

I must be mistaken. It has been my understanding that FFOF has both organic and synthetic nutrients in it. If it is totally organic then I was wrong and that changes things.


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## yarddog (Oct 13, 2015)

Rose, you've never seen it before.  But you have never met a bumbling fool like me.  Lol


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## Rosebud (Oct 13, 2015)

Hushpuppy, a few years ago they had something that wasn't organic in ffof. I called the company. They assured me it was organic. There was some confusion but I think it has been fixed. That is why you thought that I bet.

Mindtrip, YES! that means something.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 13, 2015)

I just went to the Foxfarm website but was still unable to determine if the Ocean Forest soil is totally organic or if there is a synthetic charge within it. It isn't shown listed with other organic products in their product sections but that may not mean anything.


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## Rosebud (Oct 13, 2015)

It used to be only Happy Frog was totally organic. I can check on my bag again. but pretty sure it is. Also, that damage can't be from ffof, can it?  nah


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 13, 2015)

Well if the FFOF is totally organic, that takes out the possibility of toxic buildup, and from their website info it appears to have a significant level of microbial activity within it, so that should effectively eliminate the soil from being an issue other than its nutritional value being depleted over time by the plants.

Now that the plants have been moved to larger containers of soil, the available nutrients may catch up with the issues. I don't remember if Mindtrip was using any other nutrients but I would most definitely be using an organic nutrient tea throughout the whole grow to subsidize the available nutes and microbes in the soil, if it was mine.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 13, 2015)

mindtrip said:


> So I just went in and looked at them, and noticed a pattern: all of the leaves turning bad are under direct light. The leaves that are in the shade are dark green and beautiful. Does this mean anything?


 If those dark green leaves are curling under some, that could be a sign of overfeeding, which would be odd in this situation unless you have been dumping a load of nitrogen rich stuff on them.


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## mindtrip (Oct 13, 2015)

Hmm...I have no idea.  They're not curling.  They look very healthy.  I'm seriously at a loss.


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## mindtrip (Oct 13, 2015)

It's getting worse. 

Anyone think it would be wise at this point to do water and nothing else?  I'm on week five of flower, and I'm running out of time to fix this. 

Hushpuppy, I suppose the dark green leaves are curling a little bit.  But not bad.  The Bloom I've been putting in them is 2-2-4.  Flush? 

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## Hushpuppy (Oct 15, 2015)

I don't see typical nute burn in that last pic so I don't think you have an overnute problem. I have seen this sort of problem before and was never able to solve it for the person who had it. They had the same situation where the plants did fine through the veg phase but then got worse throughout the flower phase. The odd thing was that this person was not in organics as you are.

I believe it is some form of toxicity OR micronutrient deficiency but I don't know why. I would not recommend that you flush them as you are in organics. But I would recommend that you do a pH test. If you know anyone with a meter, maybe you could ask them to test a water sample for you. Or if you have a hydro/grow shop nearby, you could ask them if they can test a water sample for you. But what you would need to do is get a couple gallons of the pure, processed water(I can not think of the name of this water to save me) and water a couple of the plants until you can get a good cup of collected runoff from a clean pan. That will tell you the most accurately what the pH is in the soil and possibly anything else in it.

That may tell you the problem or it may just eliminate a couple possibilities.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 15, 2015)

I think I might try adding some calcium--it looks a bit like a calcium deficiency to me.


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## yarddog (Oct 15, 2015)

Mine seem to be getting better after a flush. I'm in bottled  organics,   it looks like we could swap pics and no one would know.


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## checklist (Oct 15, 2015)

Hushpuppy said:


> I don't see typical nute burn in that last pic so I don't think you have an overnute problem. I have seen this sort of problem before and was never able to solve it for the person who had it. They had the same situation where the plants did fine through the veg phase but then got worse throughout the flower phase. The odd thing was that this person was not in organics as you are.
> 
> I believe it is some form of toxicity OR micronutrient deficiency but I don't know why. I would not recommend that you flush them as you are in organics. But I would recommend that you do a pH test. If you know anyone with a meter, maybe you could ask them to test a water sample for you. Or if you have a hydro/grow shop nearby, you could ask them if they can test a water sample for you. But what you would need to do is get a couple gallons of the pure, processed water(I can not think of the name of this water to save me) and water a couple of the plants until you can get a good cup of collected runoff from a clean pan. That will tell you the most accurately what the pH is in the soil and possibly anything else in it.
> 
> That may tell you the problem or it may just eliminate a couple possibilities.


:yeahthat:


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## sMACkaddict (Nov 24, 2015)

hows it going mindtrip?  I'm interested to see if you were able to figure out the problem and turn it around!  Going to look for your GJ now...

EDIT: found your gj, too bad you didn't figure it out... looks like I might be geting a similar issue starting.... I was hoping it was splash up from watering, but I am thinking its a pH issue like you mentioned in your GJ

congrats on the harvest!


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## mindtrip (Nov 27, 2015)

Thanks, Smack!  Yeah sorry, no luck getting a 100% diagnosis on it.  I hope you can figure yours out!


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## Hushpuppy (Nov 29, 2015)

Hey Mindtrip, how are they doing now? or have you already harvested them?


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## mindtrip (Dec 8, 2015)

I harvested.  And unfortunately I harvested a little early.  They still turned out decent, but I think that waiting longer and having better nutes would have helped a lot.  Yield was less than expected, as was potency.  Still a good smoke, don't get me wrong.  But not as good as I expected.


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