# How early can plants show sex?



## tastyness (Jul 23, 2012)

Mine are 32 days old. 
Growing under 600/1000W 24hrs.  In dirt. 
Checking one of them out today looks like it is loaded with balls!  DARN!

Isn't it quite early for them to be pre flowering?  Only about 8 inches tall with 7 nodes and tons of bushy growth in close to the stem.

I've got two blueberry as part of this grow and they are different ages (first try at germination didn't go all that well)
The older one (55 days) is not showing any where near this level of pre-flowering.  Only one or two indicators.
Why might it be so different for two plants of the same strain?

And I'll confess I'm bummed since Blueberry is my favorite of all time and I was hoping to end up with at least one girl.  Was not a great bunch of seeds since only 2 of 8 even germinated.


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## ozzydiodude (Jul 23, 2012)

4 weeks s the earliest I have seen a plant show sex.


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## 7greeneyes (Jul 23, 2012)

six weeks is the norm for my from-seed gals.


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## BackWoodsDrifter (Jul 23, 2012)

Ifin yual give them sip o wine here and there and maybe little smoke if she be into that and she be showin yual sex fur yual knows it ifin yual play card right  Good luck the warmth of yur fire

BWD


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## tastyness (Jul 23, 2012)

Thanks everyone.
Here are some pictures.
it is a shame because the growth on this plant is awesome.  I lifted up the outer leaf to get a shot of this growth.  

The last one of course is clearly a girl ! (Kush - 53 days old)


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## Hushpuppy (Jul 23, 2012)

That sounds like a genotype mutation. you might want to keep it and collect some pollen off it, then when the other one flowers out as a girl, you can do a back-cross breeding and see if you can capture that short maturing phenotype.


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## ozzydiodude (Jul 23, 2012)

sound like the start of a project too me. Good luck if you decide to try it.


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## Irish (Jul 23, 2012)

you said ''looks like its loaded with balls''...1-4 are males for sure.


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 23, 2012)

Hey tasty :icon_smile: . . . few weeks ago I sexed three plants, same strain, all were at day 28 from seed -  four weeks exactly - all were bout 12"-14" tall, all of em showed their preflowers at the sixth node on the main stem, and all three showed female . . . now they're in second week of flower and 30" tall  so no worries there, that's normal with some strains/phenos that will show that early (hey with males, the earlier the better !!)

You didn't say what the difference in age between the two blueberry plants is, I haven't ever personally run straight blueberry, but it's been around a long time.  I have run a couple hybrids from it, and I've seen it in another guys grow, and imo I think it's just one of those strains where there's quite a bit of variation between the individual phenos, in terms of height, color and maturing time, so I think your observations are astute . . . 

the older taller one is possibly the sativa side pheno that may go 9-10+ weeks, and the younger, shorter one is setting into flower earlier cuz its prolly the indica side pheno that might finish in 8 weeks flat . . . . i think what you're seeing sounds like the norm with this strain . . . but we need to get Irish in here, he gets my vote for the resident blueberry expert here, maybe he can corroborate this . . . . check out a couple of Irish's grows n pics . . . . fulla sweet tasty blueberry goodness they are :icon_smile:

jm2c :48:


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 23, 2012)

oh hell, he beat me here :rofl: 

Irish, can you smell blueberry over the internet or what ???????? :rofl:

I like the growth on the male too, looks a bit freaky . . . be interesting to see what it would do as a sugar daddy


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## BackWoodsDrifter (Jul 23, 2012)

:stoned: 

Good Night Pilgrems

BWD


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## tastyness (Jul 23, 2012)

Hushpuppy- that sounds really cool.  How would I do that?   I know I would need to isolate the male.  Would he need light?  My biggest challenge is temp. - freezing cold where I am even inside. 

Dan- sorry- they are 21 days apart.  I will check out Irish's stuff.

I really love this classic... luckily I've got some Blue City Diesel in this grow and confirmed 1 girl today.  

Irish, Ozzie and BWD thanks for stopping by


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## tastyness (Jul 23, 2012)

Actually most of the plants are growing in that super bushy style.  I wish I had grown before and seen how the shape growth of plant now relates to the final bud production. 
I've got some interesting pheno differences in the Blue City Diesel and the West Coast diesel as well.  One looks like a miniature 12" Xmas tree.
 But it is soooo fun to learn- and as long as I get something smokeable I'll be excited.  Been dry for over 5 months and it's getting to be a drag.


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 24, 2012)

You go, girl . . . sounds like you have good taste !!  First time grower ??


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## tastyness (Jul 24, 2012)

I've tried and succeed many times in getting some plants started.  Last year - I even got a few to bud and they were doing great but I was leaving the country and had to harvest early.  And wasn't around for drying/curing.  Result was smokeable but nothing to write home about.  Plus they had been abused (water issues, bugs)

My new life circumstances mean I'm reliant on what I grow for what I smoke.  So this is my first "real grow".  I've got 3 confirmed girls (3 more "fem" seeds that haven't shown yet of which 2 are autos)

Still have 2 boys (the blue), 1 suspect boy and 5 unknown.  From height I'm guessing 3 of 5 are boys.  We will see though.  

The BCD was actually a mistake.  WCD was freebie.  

I only have one grow area right now so have to get a plan in place for taking clones and starting some new ones.  Still have a few blue (try, try again) some Jack and another freebie from same grower as WCD.  

Can't wait to hit the first toke on this project.


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 24, 2012)

well from what you're saying you've obviously been reading alot, learned from your early attempts, you got some great genetics, and you're motivated to succeed . . . so I have no doubt that a couple more months and you will be tokin' the best stuff you've ever had :icon_smile:


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## Rosebud (Jul 24, 2012)

Greenest of mojo to you tastyness. Those were great pic's you took up there. very nice.

PS, i swear my plants from seed take 8 weeks to show sex. We are slow at my house.


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## tastyness (Jul 24, 2012)

Rosebud- Thanks.  After MJ , photography is another HUGE passion.  Got my first digital back in 2001 and have over 63K shots since then!  

I have no idea why they decided to lift their skirts so early.  I found another girl today BTW.


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## Hushpuppy (Jul 25, 2012)

If you want to make a back-cross and get seeds, you can do it pretty easy and it will better solidify the phenotypes of the plant. However you will have to be able to separate the boys n girls to prevent getting everyone knocked up. You just pick your best looking boy and toss the others, then isolate the boy until he starts to get ready to shed pollen. As soon as the first pod opens you snip off all the pods that look as ripe as the ones that are starting to open and drop them in a plastic baggie that is sealable and pop them in the fridge until the girls are ready.

Pollenating just a few of the buds, or just the ones on a single branch will give you plenty of seeds. Wait till they are budding real good but still a few weeks from harvest then take yer baggie and break open some of the pods and look for the yellow dust. Use a Q-tip to pick up the dust and then just stroke it onto all the hairs of a single bud or a couple buds.

Make sure that you break open the pods outside of the grow room (maybe even outside of the house that the growroom is in) and don't use yer fingers for this as you don't want to get any on you. You should be able to mash them from the outside of the bag and break them open after you have let them warm up to room temp. Then be very careful when going into the grow room so that you don't spill the pollen or you will wipe out your smokeable buds and have a butt-load of seeds.


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## tastyness (Jul 25, 2012)

Hushpuppy
Thanks
Not sure I can segregate them enough to make it safe.
My plants live in a tent. 
If I grew the male in a different bedroom would that be enough isolation?
Probably not worth risking my girls at this point. 
Check my gj for the unusual phenotypes I've got in this bunch. 
I can see how crossing and breeding could become really fun once I have my final permanent grow room/tools set up.  
~t~
PS:  Why is it called a backcross?
  Wouldn't I need at least one blueberry girl to cross with?  Or would I be trying to take the blue and the shrubbiness to another strain?


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 26, 2012)

I can tell you indeed have the passion and interest in this new hobby of yours, tasty :icon_smile: you want to learn everything . . . thats a good sign

backcrossing is breeding a plant to its own kind, not another strain . . . actually, to backcross you first breed two plants of the same strain, then grow out the offspring and use a male of the offspring to breed a clone of the _original_ mom . . . then you can take _those_ offspring and use a male from them to again breed a clone of the _original_ mom . . . and so on . . . you keep crossing *back* to the original mom, get it ?  the result is that the differences between individual phenos becomes less and less, which for some purposes is very desirable - more uniform growth and harvesting.

you can also reverse that and find a very exceptional male, clone it, and keep backcrossing the future generations of _females_ that it produces to the original male.

outcrossing is taking two different strains and creating a hybrid, a mixture of both . . . then picking out the best phenos from the resulting combination . . . the best hybrids come from the most polar opposites - extreme indicas bred to extreme sativas . . . 

we all looked at the branching growth on that male blueberry of yours and saw the same thing . . . an interesting candidate for possible breeding (males, especially indica males, often produce very weak branching) . . . but I think you're exactly right, you would do well to concentrate on your girls this trip and just get used to bringing plants all the way to harvest before you delve into pollen chucking . . . . but it's something fun to anticipate in the future !!

jm2c :48:


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## tastyness (Jul 26, 2012)

Dan,
Thanks for the great explanation. I'm going to pass for now but want to make sure I get what you are telling me.
IF I had two blueberry plants at this time AND one was a girl THEN I would be able to back-cross.  When we buy seeds from a retailer are they all from the same plant?
Once I pollinate a clone from the female her seeds are still boy/girl and I grab a boy from that and rinse and repeat?

If you guys thought that dude has some nice genetics wait till you see the BCD I've got.  This is one of the last holdouts for pre-flowers so no idea if it is a boy or a girl yet.
 It looks like a hanging plant and has the closes internodes I've ever seen for a 7 week old plant.  Pics in GJ soon.
~t~


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 26, 2012)

Close but not quite lol . . . 

IF you had two blueberry plants at this time, AND one was a female (call her MOM) and one was a male (call him DAD), then you could fertizilize MOM with DAD and produce some seeds, or offspring (call them KIDS).

Once you have _those _seeds, THEN you could backcross . . . growing out the KIDS, choosing one or more female KIDS to fertilize with pollen from a clone of DAD, and/or choosing one or more male KIDS' pollen to fertilize a clone of MOM . . . and making another batch of seeds . . . then you could backcross again by growing _those_ seeds out and breeding the GRANDKIDS back to clones of the original MOM/DAD . . . . it takes years and several generations of plants to do this

Its basically plant incest . . . no banjo pickin here, and not at all like the animal world . . . it's extremely helpful in developing true-breeding uniformity in a given strain

Hmmmm . . .  when you buy seeds, I guess it's _possible_ that they are from the same plant, but I'm not sure any of us can say . . . . oh wait, there is someone who could answer that !!

Maybe if we see Colin & Sharon around, we can pose that question . . . I think it's really an excellent question and would really like to know the answer too . . . Colin and Sharon are members here, they are the breeders who established the Leprechaun Seed Company - which seems to have some really dank genetics in their lineup (see the Gravedigger plant Ruffy just harvested in his GJ - that strain is from LSC)

For now though, I will just be happy to see you harvest some nice mature female buds . . . in growing it's always GIRLS COME FIRST !!


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## tastyness (Jul 26, 2012)

Dan-
That answer just got you a vote for MVP!


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## dcshoeco1041 (Jul 26, 2012)

mine have been going for close to 10 weeks invegandi cant tell sex still. i guess ill just have to see when i put em  into flower


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## Dan K. Liberty (Jul 27, 2012)

wow that's a long veg with no preflowers dc . . . did you top or fim them, and if so . . . how many nodes did you let em grow up to on the main stem before you did so ?


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## tastyness (Aug 1, 2012)

Here are updated sex pics.  The two "boys" have been removed from the tent and are on their way to my juicer!

The other is the blueberry that I thought was a boy (first one to show any hint) but since then no more indications either way.

Dan asked me to post some more pics.
The WCD all three is still showing nothing.  All other plants have shown clearly as girls (YEAH!)
Here is the undetermined Blue...


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## tastyness (Aug 1, 2012)

And here are the boys...


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## tastyness (Aug 13, 2012)

Still the same question on this plant- is it a girl?  is it a boy?  is it hermie?

This one seems to have the boy lobster claw flowers, but each time I think it is that it turns into a leaf....

This plants doesn't look or act like any of the others in my grow. 

Enjoy the funky pictures. 
I'm thinking it is time to get this out of the tent- just in case.  
Hoping it becomes clear enough for me to feel good about chopping its head off.


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## Dan K. Liberty (Aug 14, 2012)

the very first picture has a structure that can be identified . . . looks like a lobster claw with the tips crossing over . . .  :cry:


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## The Hemp Goddess (Aug 14, 2012)

Dan, that just appears to be new growth to me--what are you thinking it is saying?


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## ozzydiodude (Aug 14, 2012)

Jury still out to lunch here


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## Dan K. Liberty (Aug 14, 2012)

I'm saying that looks exactly like a male preflower . . . have seen the lobster claw many a time, and dint a one turn out to be a female . . . she does have some weird growth on the plant, where little secondary branches with leaves are coming out of the same node as a main branch, but that aint one of em, I'm afraid . . . inside those two little sheaths is a boy ball waitin to pop . . . see the thinning at the bottom where the tiny stalk is starting to lift it up?


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## Hick (Aug 14, 2012)

picture #3????  if that ain't a male, I'll eat ozzies hat!


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## tastyness (Aug 14, 2012)

Thanks Dudes-  I noticed that I see the most little balls right by the FIM site.  On the girls, that part clearly shows pistils. I thought my pictures were clear but not so much.

I'll try for better pics again today.  Also think one of my WCD has finally turned up male!


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## The Hemp Goddess (Aug 14, 2012)

Pic 3 certainly does look like a male.  However, I have never noticed the lobster claw things as being male preflowers when I was sexing plants.  I'll keep a better eye out.  I am sexing some Beyond the Brain now.  The first one to show sex is a big girl that I though may turn out to be a boy as it is the biggest.


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## tastyness (Aug 15, 2012)

Ozzie- I'm hoping the jury is still out.  
So I was feeling kinda creative with my camera yesterday.
Maybe in B&W it is easier to see the bits and bobs.

I keep thinking this plant is a boy- and I should toss it.  BUT then I notice that most of what looks like man-parts keeps turning into leaf. 

I'm not seeing any hairs yet but love this plant and would hate to trash it and find out it was a girl.  
The only place it seems quite "manly" is where I attempted to FIM it.  
Tons of bud sites are forming- it is 3 days into flower.  I've got one branch that I flipped to 12/12 early and am hoping that will give me a clue before it becomes dangerous.

I don't want to be blinded by my desire for this plant to produce some smoke  to the point where I mess up the rest of the tent.  
With the pollen thing-if I'm checking every day (several times).  Can the little tiny nob in the pic do pollen?  Or does it need to grow some more before it can release?

Comments and advice welcome.


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## tastyness (Aug 18, 2012)

I'm not willing to take any more chances.  Calling this one a boy.
So out of 8 blueberry seeds from two different purchases I ended up with 0 plants to take to flower.  
Luckily I can try again-in my next order I think I'll try a different breeder.  
It was fun experimenting a bit with this one (using black bag on branch to help sex early 12/12) but still hoping it would be a girl. 
I used these pictures to make my decision. Click to see larger version and let me know what you think




As THG said, it does get easier as you go along.  Overall I've had a really good  % of girls from this run.


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## Dan K. Liberty (Aug 18, 2012)

Agreed on all counts, tasty :icon_smile: a couple of the fat boys there look fully formed, and could open within a couple days . . . . I'm sure DJ sends his regrets . . .

As I've stated on other threads, I haven't grown out a whole bunch of different strains . . . but I have been fortunate, because the genetics I've worked with the most - The Holy Cow and her two parents - were like clockwork when it came to sexing . . . 4 weeks veg, node 6 or 7 on the main stem . . . bang, there they are, no doubt about it . . .

In fact, I got to know mine so well that I could often correctly guess them before preflowers even formed !! . . . males grow taller, a bit wimpier with slightly longer internodes and less robust side branching during veg . . . females grow a bit squatter, with shorter internodes and vigorous side branching, getting strong and ready for heavy nuggz down the road 

I was trying to help ston-loc sex his Satori plants back in the spring, and I got fooled by at least two, I think . . . see, it's coded into the genetics as to how and when a strain or individual is gonna show, and Satori is on the tough end of the scale . . . . everybody growing it says the same thing . . . so nothing is written in ston . . . hehe . . . depending on what you're growing, your results may differ . . .

I still have a suspicion that fimming or topping the plant and quitting the single main stem growth pattern causes delay, but because of time or height restrictions, some growers simply can't wait that long . . . I wait to sex the plants _first_, then transplant the girls to final pot size and FIM, then veg a week or two more to grow out the FIMs, then flip . . . it's just what works for me

So like THG said, it's a learning process that only stops when you turn out the lights . . . all we can do is make careful observations and learn how our plants tick, and then apply that information to future runs . . . maybe no blueberry popsicles for you on this run, but you did get plenty of girls to work with . . . and I'm assuming this will be the last pic of a male plant that you will post for awhile . . . 

jm2c :48:


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## tastyness (Aug 18, 2012)

Dan K.
Well said.  :yeahthat:  Having the several varieties has taught me lots for this time around and has made it very interesting.  They weren't DJ shorts BTW.  The downside is probably that not every strain is at optimum, since they are getting treated mostly the same way for their age.  Clones get one treatment, veggies get one and flowering of course another.  

This one actually did show way back when- I just didn't want to believe it.  I think with more experience I'll be more confident.  I really thought that tall BCD that is so different than the other three was gonna be the boy.  But no, she is clearly a girl.  For me it is like, the girls make it really obvious and when in doubt it should probably go out. 
Still 3 plants to go though so there might be a few more pics-   but certainly none of this plant.  I've got a guess in for 2 boys and one girl.  They have two pretty different pheno types going on as well
Mine went in the following order : sex (most around 33-40 days), FIM-(because I thought I was in final pot size), destroy confirmed males , transplant and top up, clone, heal 1-2 weeks, flip.
One of the best things I've learned this time around is the actual rhythm with which my plants are growing. It's one thing to read about the stages but another to live through them. Thank goodness I had all this help here at MP or I never would have made it this far with such success.  Coming up- flowering, how cool is that.  
Appreciate your comments and help as always.  Your grow is looking awesome.

PS: If you knew how many pictures I've taken of this little project you would be :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## Dan K. Liberty (Aug 18, 2012)

_All_ blueberry descendents are DJ Short's if you ask me . . . some breeders might grab this or that pheno and come up with their own "interpretation" that they will sell, but they all go back to the same place . . . and since he invented the strain, he would probably be the best source for seeds when you make another go at it in the future . . . 

jm2c :48:


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## tastyness (Aug 28, 2012)

As my gut was telling me... I think we have boys!
Here are some pics- what do you think?


The last one still isn't clear but it is the plant that got decapitated.  Only a few sad branches left and probably not worth the effort at this point.  
Will have to put them in the queue for the next run.


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## sMACkaddict (Aug 28, 2012)

i think you forgot something...  :ccc:


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## tastyness (Aug 28, 2012)

sMACkaddict said:
			
		

> i think you forgot something...  :ccc:


THANKS- fixed it


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## dman1234 (Aug 28, 2012)

Both those pics are definetly boys.


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## Dan K. Liberty (Aug 29, 2012)

yep :doh:


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