# Bubble Hash & THCA/CBDA?



## The Hemp Goddess

I have come across something in my readings that I have some questions about.  Apparently THC and CBD start out as THCA and CBDA.  Both of these compounds are water soluble and  inactive in man.  Heating, and to a lesser degree aging and curing causes the extra CO2 to break away, leaving THC and CBD.  Both of these compounds are insoluble in water and psychoactive in man.  So, this has got me to wondering if the bud and trim should be decarboxylated prior to making bubble hash?  It would seem to me that I am losing a lot of potential THC/CBD by not making sure the acids are converted to THC and CBC, rather than dissolved and discarded in the water.


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## umbra

sounds like its time for an experiment


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## Hushpuppy

I am only making an educated guess here, I remember reading something about that in HT where the glands that are still within the leaves, or any "free" cannabinoids that are still within the leaves could still be in the nonuseful state if the plant is not fully mature or if the leaves and/or bud from the lower portions of the plant are used. 

but I would think that the cannabinoids (correct term?) that are retrieved from making bubble hash are only coming from what is stored in the exterier resin glands on the leaves and buds, and they should be mature enough that they are already converted. I didn't think that the bubble hash(or ice-water hash method) was able to remove any of the cannabinoids from within the leaves.


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## BBFan

I think the question is how much thc is lost from the extraction because of water solubility.  Ice water extraction is only removing trichomes by causing them to become brittle and to "break-off" during the agitation.

I really don't think the glands are dissolving in water.  The thca and other compounds will decarboxylate during smoking or vaping.


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## The Hemp Goddess

It is my understanding that ALL plants (even mature plants) have THCA and CBDA present.  This is part of the reason that we cure--to let the THCA and the CBDA convert to THC and CBD.  This is also the reason that marijuana should be carboxylated when used for tinctures and the like.  The THCA and CBDA are water soluble and inactive in man.  However, when you heat marijuana, the extra CO2 molecule breaks away and you are left with THC and CBD, which is not water soluble and is active in man.  So, if you are soaking your marijuana leaves or bud in any kind of water, it certainly seems to me that you are dissolving and rendering useless the THCA and the CBDA that could potentially be turned into THC and CBD just by heating it.....or an I off base here?

BBFan--this is part of my thoughts here.  When smoked or vaped, the acids (THCA & CBDA) are converted to THC & CBD.  But with bubble hash, we are immersing the marijuana prior to heating it.  So this brings up more questions about CBDA and THCA--do these cannabinoids reside in the resin glands?  They are quite similar chemically to THC and CBD, I am thinking these chemicals are present in the resin glands right beside the THC and CBD and if so, when you put them in water....pooof.....gone.


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## warfish

I like this topic.  
So let's say you are able to convert all the THCA and CBDA into a usable form for your hash batch.  The question I have is what quality would that THC be?  We all monitor our amber levels so we can harvest at our preferred high.  I wonder if the immature THCA and CBDA that is converted would really throw off the high you are looking for.  I don't mind an up high but a total heart racing high is not what I am after.  Maybe it is why the bubble hash seems to have a slightly deeper, or more relaxed high, than the ISO I make.  With the ISO everything is basically dissolved right into the final product.


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## The Hemp Goddess

I have read that part of the reason we cure is to let the THCA & CBDA change to THC & CBD.  In addition, this is the reason that marijuana is decarboxylated if used in a cold tincture.  So, is the amount significant?  Or as Warfish mentioned, will this change the high to something you don't want?


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## BBFan

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> BBFan--this is part of my thoughts here.  When smoked or vaped, the acids (THCA & CBDA) are converted to THC & CBD.  But with bubble hash, we are immersing the marijuana prior to heating it.  So this brings up more questions about CBDA and THCA--do these cannabinoids reside in the resin glands?  They are quite similar chemically to THC and CBD, I am thinking these chemicals are present in the resin glands right beside the THC and CBD and if so, when you put them in water....pooof.....gone.


 
Hey THG-  Honestly my understanding has been that the trichomes encapsulate the thc and they are impervious to water- otherwise rain would dissolve them and wash them away.  But I don't know.

Are you thinking you should try heating your trim before bubble bagging?  I've always been happy with bubble as it is (love that pure trich taste)- do you think you'd get more or just more potent?

Like umbra said- experiment time.  I have a bunch of cured trim and popcorn in jars that I'd donate to the cause, but you ain't even in my time zone.  Hope all is well with you.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Yes, I was thinking that decarboxylating the trim before making bubble hash may result in more THC as the THCA will be converted to THC and not simply dissolved in the water that is discarded.  This is what started me thinking of all this:  hXXp://countyourculture.com/2010/11/11/decarboxylation-of-cannabis/ 

"Decarboxylation of Cannabis

Natural cannabis contains a wide variety of phytocannabinoids, compounds which bind to cannabinoid receptors in the body and contribute to the high felt when cannabis is consumed. One interesting thing to consider is that the majority of these compounds do not dissolve in water, but were produced in a plant whose leaves and stems are saturated with water and require it to survive. So how were they biosynthesized in a plant if they are not soluble in water?

One proposed solution is that while in the living cells of the cannabis plant these cannabinoids are almost entirely present as their carboxylic acids which are water soluble.

Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC)
Insoluble in water, active in man. 	
Cannabidiol (CBD)
Insoluble in water, active in man in conjunction with THC.

Tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA)
Soluble in water, inactive in man. 	
Cannabidiolic acid (CBDA)
Soluble in water, inactive in man.

After cannabis is harvested and cured, these carboxyl groups begin to degrade, releasing CO2 and leaving behind the desired decarboxylated active cannabinoids. Drying, aging, and heat all contribute to break this carboxyl group down, which is why fresh cannabis is typically cured and then smoked for maximum potency.

But what if you&#8217;re consuming the cannabis in a different manner, for instance in brownies or in an alcohol tincture? Then additional care must be taken to ensure the inactive cannabinoids such as THCA and CBDA are decarboxylated into the desired THC and CBD. This is especially important with lower quality cannabis that has not been properly cured, and will likely contain significant amounts of carboxylated cannabinoids as a result.

The good thing is that it&#8217;s quite easy to accomplish. Most recipes recommend heating ground cannabis in oil or butter, or a layer of roughly ground cannabis can be put on a baking sheet and put in a pre-heated oven at 200°F (~93°C) for five minutes which will dry and heat the cannabis sufficiently to improve the potency of the resulting product. This is especially important for alcohol tinctures, which typically are not heated as part of the preparation process unlike a baked good such as a brownie."


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## King Bud

_Niice._:icon_smile: 
Thx THG


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## umbra

I was getting ready to make some green dragon for the holidays, perhaps heating it would be in order.


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## Rosebud

I always heat prior to making tincture with alcohol or glycerin.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Like Rose, I have always heated before making tinctures, but not until not have I considered doing it with bubble hash material.  I really think that from now on I am going to decarboxylate everything prior to putting it into the freezer.


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## Rosebud

I think that sounds like a great idea.


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## BBFan

Let us know how your next batch comes out.  You going to do a side by side to compare?


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## Budders Keeper

Now you got the wheels turning in the old thinkbox. I'm not a scientist but...if THCA and CBDA are soluble in water and not active until decarboxylated, I'm thinking: 

Soak some weed in cool water, dissolving THCA/CBDA into the "mix".

Slowly heat mix(decarboxylating) with choice of sweetener/flavoring creating tea. 

In theory, this would decarboxylate THCA/CBDA leaving THC/CBD in your tea. If I understand correctly, this would get you "stoned" using only the water-soluble non-psycoactive THCA/CBDA(converted)?? Or am I way off.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Budders--I think that might be right on.  I always wondered how marijuana tea could have any effect (since THC is non-water soluble), but it does.  Maybe this is the reason.  

I am going to be making some hash for Christmas.  I will try and do a little experimenting.


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## Hushpuppy

Since I have been making hash for the last 9 months, I have been keeping the most of the material left over as I don't beat it to the point that my hash turns green. Some of my relatives that like to smoke the leaf get it and dry it out like tobacco to smoke it. They have told me several times that I am leaving behind a lot of THC since they still get a good high from it. I assume that the article that I read is at least somewhat correct that a certain amount of the THC and CBD is still held within the leaf and not all deposited in the trichomes. If these cannabinoids are indeed uncarboxylated then making a "green tea" from steeping the leaves(in boiling water) that are left from hash making might make an interesting tea.


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## Hushpuppy

I just read an interesting article that pretty much covers this same subject. The article is called "Solvent-Free Hashish Alchemy" it is in volume 7, issue 4 of SKUNK magazine. The author talks about heating the bubble hash to completely convert the THCa and CBDa  to remove the acid attachment and make the resultant honey oil more potent. An interesting read


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## The Hemp Goddess

Thanks Hushpuppy--I look forward to reading the article.  Gotta love something with "Alchemy" in the title.


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## NorCalHal

I have a few friends that do nothing but make concentrate products from trim. Myself, I am not into hash too much.

I know that dispensaries RAVE over his product and praise it as very medicinal, high in thc and cbd.

He has told me that the trick is pressure and heat.

I know once he makes the bubble hash, he will sift it through a flour sifter and spread it out to let it dry.

Once it is dry, he will place that on a cookie sheet and put it in the oven at 125-150 degrees for a metter of 60 -90 seconds, he will then put it in a vac seal bag and "Press" it with a custom 2 ton press.

I guess it changes it at the molecular" level and it becomes very narcotic.

Sorry for the ramblings, just my 2 cents on what I see folks do.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Thanks for the input, NCH.  I personally really really like hash and I'm getting more into tinctures (as this #$%&* arthritis keeps getting worse).  And as always, looking to make things better.


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## ziggyross

I found this article and it did answer a question I had about food dehydrators 

Decarboxylation
By Ed Rosenthal - Thursday, January 2 2003
Tags:

    Ask Ed
    CC40
    GROWING
    Indoor

Does marijuana have to be heated to become psychoactive?

I bought a Coldfinger to make an extract, but my problem is this: Doesn't marijuana have to be heated to become psychoactive?
My solution was to put the marijuana in the oven before putting it in the Coldfinger. But I have no idea how long I should leave it in there, let alone at what temperature. I know THC boils at 392 degrees F. But other cannabinoids, which are essential to the experience, boil off much more quickly. At what temperature can I decarboxylate the THC, while still preserving some of the cannabinoids?

Hockeypoo,
Internet,

Marijuana produces THCA, an acid with the carboxylic group (COOH) attached. In its acid form, THC is not very active. It is only when the carboxyl group is removed that THC becomes psychoactive. When marijuana is smoked, the THC behind the hot spot is vaporized as the hot air from the burn is drawn through the joint or pipe bowl to the unburned material. The liquid THC and other cannabinoids have a boiling point of between 180-200? C (355-392? F). Before they turn gaseous, at around 106? C (220? F), the carboxyl group is released from the molecule as carbon dioxide and water vapor.

You will be extracting the THC using low heat in the commercially made Coldfinger Extractor. (They have a very interesting online catalog at hxxp://edenlabs.org). The THC will not reach a temperature in which decarboxylation takes place. However, if you plan to vaporize or smoke the extract decarboxylation will take place as the oil is used.
Advertisement

However, it is easy to make sure all the THC is decarboxylated and is at full strength before it is extracted. Although decarboxylation takes place rapidly at 106? C, it proceeds at a more gradual pace by placing the cannabis in a room with low relative humidity and room temperature. As the temperature rises, the rate of decarboxylation increases.

Cannabis can also be placed in a food dehydrator to remove the carboxyl group. Although the heat in the food dehydrator doesn't rise to 106? C, the temperature is warm enough to promote drying and the release of the water and CO2. When the marijuana is crispy and brittle you can be assured that the carboxyl group has been removed from the cannabinoids and they are ready for extraction or removal from the plant material.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Thanks, ziggy.  

I have just started decarboxylating all trim and bud before it goes into the freezer for tincture or hash.


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## ShecallshimThor

Hemp Goddess 

Since you've started "curing" your trim have you noticed more plant matter or greener has?

I'm just getting into making it and really like this thread but in my experience dry trim (cured half @$$ in paper bags) was way greener and when I freeze it while its fresh the bubble is more blonde and looks more appealing to my taste.

Also what has been your preferred method of curing or prepping your trim?


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## The Hemp Goddess

I am not actually curing my trim.  I am putting it an oven for a bit to decarbox and then into the freezer.  I don't let it get dry enough that it crumbles unless I am making cannabis flour.  I do think that overdry trim makes for more green in your hash.


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## HighBrixMMJ

I couldn't imagine the hash I make getting any better, that's just down right scary. That stuff already puts me in another universe! Lol. I'm interested to hear how this turns out for you THG. Are you gonna do a control as well to compare the two? Look forward to your results.


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## Rosebud

This old thread is so interesting. Glad to read it again.


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## Havingfun

I just read it all and gives me something to try in a few months. Great reading.:icon_smile:


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## perp201

Just a nubie question here ... is only trimmings from the bud area of the plant used for any form of hash making or is leaves from lower on the plant useful as well.  Thanks


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## Bogart Mc Thunderdunk

youre collecting the trics(crystals) so any part with them on it basically. usually just the buds and surrounding leaves but if theres frost elsewhere then itll work. other parts can be used for cooking but still usually preferable to use trim and buds.


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## The Hemp Goddess

I never save any of the larger leaves--there is just not enough trichs on them to bother with them.   Pretty much everything with stems gets tossed unless it is so sticky that I can't get it off my fingers.


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## Ruffy

theres so much good stuff in the fan leaves, juice them, or eat in salad. they don't get you high, but very good for ya.
thg how long and what temps do you put trim in oven?
I used to use wet trim and found it better bone dry.
I love me hash, and bubble is the only way id make it.
I have a bit of killer trim now, and 20 more plants in 2-3 months so ill try this for sure


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## ziggyross

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I am not actually curing my trim.  I am putting it an oven for a bit to decarbox and then into the freezer.  I don't let it get dry enough that it crumbles unless I am making cannabis flour.  I do think that overdry trim makes for more green in your hash.



HG please explain what cannabis flour is and what you make with it.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Cannabis flour is just ground up buds and fine trim.  I put it in a low oven for about 20-30 minutes and then into a coffee grinder.  It is ground to the consistency of flour.  No stems or big leaves--just bud and those frosty little leaves around them.  I have a peanut butter cookie recipe that uses cannabis flour.  My sis loves them.  However you can use it in any recipe with flour.


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## Ruffy

and when you ground it that fine, you didn't feel like it has destroyed all the trichs??? or  less amount? thg?


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## Canelo_Kid

To Decarboxylate or not?

After reading this thread I wanted to know if decarboxylation helps when making bubble Hash better?

I have a lot of trimmings from last years harvest that I want to process with a Bubble Magic 5 gallon washing machine and make into bubble hash. As of now the trimmings are frozen after curing last year and I want to do what is best.

Do I take them out and let them dry, then clean them and re-freeze them?

or

Do I decarboxylate them, then re-freeze them?


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## The Hemp Goddess

Canelo Kid, I think that there is no doubt that decarboxing gives you more THC and CBC.  I don't think it matters exactly how you do it.  I use only the small frosty trim and small buds for hash.  I would clean it first if it is going to need it.  I ran across this article while looking for something for DGF to read on decarboxing.  It has a little more info.  
hXXp://www.marijuanagrowershq.com/decarboxylating-cannabis-turning-thca-into-thc/

Ruffy, no I don't think grinding the trim into flour (a powder) hurt it at all.  I believe that a lot of people who make edibles use cannabis flour.


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## Ruffy

great reads, I cant believe how much we still have to learn about cannabis. anyone tried the dehydrator like was posted near top of page?
it sounds better than the oven.
any one done a side by side test, from decarb to none decarb process and smoked the difference.
all my hashes come out top quality imo, but if we can make it better from the scrapes most throw out, ill take the test!
next run of trim ill try this test... thanks thg for all the yrs of knowledge you spew into this forum.


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## DrFever

I always use all green matter  other then stems for making bubble hash  yup even them  big fan leafs if anything  they are fill for my hash  giving me more of it  the strain i use mostly for hash is ppp plant  when making it with straight  buds its to strong  but adding more leaf to it  brings it down to a decent level  that most people would like


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## buddogmutt

Very interesting.....I'll definitely try this in a few days on the trim I'll have off the indoor coming out..nothing like a side by side demo....heated vs non heated..


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