# Roots are getting too big for bucket



## Surfer Joe (Jan 12, 2014)

I have a northern lights auto growing in a 22L bubble bucket and the roots are getting too big for the bucket. They are about the size of a basketball, and the plant itself is about 20 inches tall and over two feet wide. It sprouted on Dec 1.

When I have to remove the plant to exchange buckets with new nutes, I always see a few broken roots left as it rubs against the air hose and the aquarium heater in the bucket coming out.
Is this going to cause root problems?
So far, the roots look ok to me.
Thanks for any advice.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Jan 12, 2014)

No problems, this is normal. In my 5gal buckets, 1/2 way into flowering it starts to become the shape of the 5gal bucket. Just don't overfill  


Great looking plant! :aok:


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## Surfer Joe (Jan 12, 2014)

Dr. Green Fang said:
			
		

> No problems, this is normal. In my 5gal buckets, 1/2 way into flowering it starts to become the shape of the 5gal bucket. Just don't overfill
> 
> 
> Great looking plant! :aok:


Thanks.
When you say- don't overfill, what do you mean?
I keep the water level topped up to just below the net pot.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Jan 12, 2014)

Well, I'm sure you have experience now enough that I didn't have to even mention it. 

Some may think if you start with 3 gal of solution before the roots get there, you still continue with 3 gal of solution when you clean it out and add back. But (and obviously) the roots will start to own space in there, and you can only use something like 1gal of solution. 

It was probably an irrelevant statement on my part.


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## Surfer Joe (Jan 12, 2014)

Thanks. I understand now.
My bucket has a side hose that shows me the water level inside, so I keep it filled to the same mark and the roots take up whatever volume they need.


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 13, 2014)

The plant looks to be quite healthy. I wouldn't worry about a few smaller roots getting broken, as long as it isn't a large amount or bigger roots. With that much root system, the plant won't miss a few smaller ones getting broken off.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 13, 2014)

There is really no reason that you cannot put 3 gallons of solution in, if you can get it in.  A plant that size can uptake over a gallon a day.  If you are only able to get a gal of nute solution in the bucket, you are going to need to go to a larger bucket or you will be filling the bucket with new nute solution every single day and probably twice a day.

Plant looks great, by the way.  You have great color, the leaves are nice and green and the roots are very healthy.  Great job!


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## Surfer Joe (Jan 13, 2014)

Thanks. I learned one thing from my first grow- don't overfeed. I am just following the canna aqua guide for normal feeding and using about 2/3 strength for all the nutes and additives it lists. I may be underfeeding it since the EC and ppms drop steadily as soon as it gets a new bucket of nutes. 
There doesn't seem to be a lot of bud development, though. Should I consider trimming some leaves to allow more light into the bud sites?
Would it help to switch to a 600W dual spectrum light (I'm using a 400W hps right now)? I was planning to do that later in the grow after there was some significant bud development.
It's pretty slow for an auto, though. It sprouted on dec 1 and it still has very limited bud development. Would it benefit from changing to a 12/12 light schedule to stimulate flowering and then going back to 18/6 to provide more light for bud development?


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 15, 2014)

Are you SURE this is an auto?  Where did you get the seed, what strain is it, and are the breeders reputable?

Some autos just don't auto.  If you are seeing little bud development after 7+ weeks, I do not believe that this is not to bud under 18/6 light.  As a side note, a light schedule for autos is generally 24/7 for the first several weeks and then a 20/4 light schedule.  I do not use 18/6 light for anything.  If you put it in 12/12 light and it starts budding, you are going to have to leave it in 12/12 light--going back to 18/6 will not help the buds develop, but will start it revegging again.


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## Surfer Joe (Jan 15, 2014)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Are you SURE this is an auto?  Where did you get the seed, what strain is it, and are the breeders reputable?
> 
> Some autos just don't auto.  If you are seeing little bud development after 7+ weeks, I do not believe that this is not to bud under 18/6 light.  As a side note, a light schedule for autos is generally 24/7 for the first several weeks and then a 20/4 light schedule.  I do not use 18/6 light for anything.  If you put it in 12/12 light and it starts budding, you are going to have to leave it in 12/12 light--going back to 18/6 will not help the buds develop, but will start it revegging again.



It has already started to produce flowering buds, so I am feeling more confident.
The seed was definitely supposed to be an auto flower feminized northern lights from sensi seeds.
I will take some closeup shots of the flowers and ask for advice on whether they are really flowering or not.


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 16, 2014)

The reason the ppm drops so rapidly is that there isn't a lot of solution there for the plant to draw from so it sucks the nutes out of the water very fast. I personally would move to a 600w hps for it(if the space allows) but stay with the 20/4 schedule. I would also raise my nutes a little, especially if you have a "bloom" nutrient with the Aqua Vega brand. I would leave all the other the same and just add about 10% more of the bloom nute, but then watch it for leaf tip burn in case that is too much. It shouldn't be if its just the bloom nute being raised as it is going into flowering, it will need more bloom nutes.


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## WeedHopper (Jan 16, 2014)

Very nice for an Auto Bro,,good job.


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## Surfer Joe (Jan 16, 2014)

Thanks.
The plant seems to have started flowering finally and has started to stretch with tons of bud sites hidden among the thick foliage.
I was starting to worry that it might be a photo seed by mistake or maybe a hermie. I attached some photos. Can anyone please confirm that this is an auto female? It has been under 20/4 light until about 10 days ago when I started lowering it to 18/6, where it is now.  

I also switched lights from a 400W hps to a 600W dual spectrum hps/hid and it has started to grow at about 1 inch a day in the past few days.
Should I raise it back to 20/4?

I am going to run out of head room soon, so I may have to try trimming a few leaves to slow it down and also allow better light to the bud sites.


At what stage should I add the canna PK supplement? The instructions say for one week only during full flower, but I am unclear what full flower means.
Should I wait until the colas are getting significant to add the PK or do it sooner when the flowers are still developing?


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 17, 2014)

It certainly appears to be an auto to me at this point. I would hesitate to change the light period at this point as it could cause stress at a critical time. If you are running out of head room, don't trim anything, tie some string to several of the branches and slowly, gently pull them outward to open the plant and lower the canopy some. 

If you don't have anyway to attach the string, get some heavy fishing sinkers (4-5oz salt water sinkers) and tie them to the end of the string so that it pulls the branches over just to the point that the sinkers touch the floor. You may have to do some adjusting to get them just right.

If the branches are too woody or it pulls the plant over, then only pull the branches as far as they will go without causing issues. Then in a few days you can pull them further. This tying them will not cause the plant stress. cutting and trimming can cause stress.

I would add a small amount of the PK, maybe 1/4 of what it calls for. Then next week I would add another but bump it up just a little. I don't personally like to add strong nutes all at once. I prefer to add it a little at a time, spreading it out over time so that the plant can utilize it more evenly over time. I don't know what the dose is for the PK but if it was (for example) 5ml per gallon of water, then I would add 1.5ml per gallon this time, 2.5 per the next feeding, then 3.5 the next feeding. That would give the plant an increasing amount as it increases its bud development. 

I am not sure what the life span is for this plant but I would continue to give it a reduced level of PK (about 2.5ml per) until it is about 7-10 days out from harvest.


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## Surfer Joe (Jan 17, 2014)

Thank you, that's very helpful.
The plant has many bud sites hidden under all of the foliage.
I read that trimming away some leaves to allow more light to hit interior buds would help the bud sites develop and also slow the upward growth of the plant.
I take it that you don't recommend trimming leaves to help control the height of the plant?


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 20, 2014)

Sorry to not get back right away. I am careful about trimming. I don't recommend doing it but an experienced grower who knows their plant well can see the benefits or dangers of removing any given leaves. Typically though the buds are going to grow and push up toward the lights and end up pushing past the leaves that are now blocking them.

 I generally wait until I can tell which buds will make it past the canopy and which ones will not, and then I slowly remove the lower ones that are smaller. I also remove any undergrowth that I know will not make it through the canopy so that the energy the plant would send to that growth will now go to the top of the plant where the bigger buds are.

I try to do this process slowly and drawn out over a period of about 15-20 days after flowering begins. I only take a 1-3 branches and/or lower buds each day so that the plant doesn't get stressed by the damage.


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## Surfer Joe (Jan 20, 2014)

Thanks. I decided to do a little trimming to allow some more light into the plant and also to slow it down a little since it is in danger of outgrowing my tent. It has grown over six inches in the past 7 or 8 days.
The plant was drinking 3.6L (almost a gallon) of water a day, partly to feed all those leaves, and it still has several weeks to go before harvest.
The trim has thinned it out and it hasn't shown any immediate stress from it. Today, the plant needed only 3L. 
I'll wait to see how it responds to the trim before doing anything else.

You mention trimming off some of the lower buds so that the plant focuses on the  upper areas that get more light. I hadn't thought about trimming any buds since I wanted to get the most out of the harvest, but would trimming off the lower small buds in the shadows cause the upper buds to become more potent?


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## trillions of atoms (Jan 21, 2014)

Lookin good!!


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 22, 2014)

Trimming the lower buds that are small and insignificant earlier in the flower will definitely help the higher buds do more. It makes them get a little bigger but I don't know if it makes them any more potent. I am talking about taking off the little popcorn buds that will never see the light, not any bigger buds that are just under the canopy.

It is not a good thing to remove too many of the fan leaves during the earlier and middle parts of flower as they are the factories that are feeding the bud growth. The smaller bud leaves don't do nearly as much to feed the buds, they are more for supporting, protecting, and supplementing the buds. If you took a lot of fan leaves off the plant then you will not see as big of buds ultimately. It won't hurt them as they are and may help some of the resin glands to mature on the lower buds a little quicker but their growth will slow or even stop depending on how many leaves are removed.


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## Surfer Joe (Feb 5, 2014)

Here's an update on the grow.
The northern lights auto is around day 65 (sprouted dec 1).
I have had to trim the leaves several times to get some light to the bud sites and they keep growing back.
The root ball is big and very clean around the bottom and insides, although I'm a little concerned about some discoloration around the top.
I figure that it still has several weeks to go.
If anyone can see any warning signs, please advise.
Thanks.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 6, 2014)

That is one mity fine looking auto  I would say that you have done well with her. I am beginning to see some yellowing on the upper fan leaves. This may be an early sign of senescence beginning, or it could be a sign of stress from the removal of fan leaves. Not sure, but the roots look awesome


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## Surfer Joe (Feb 6, 2014)

Hushpuppy said:
			
		

> That is one mity fine looking auto  I would say that you have done well with her. I am beginning to see some yellowing on the upper fan leaves. This may be an early sign of senescence beginning, or it could be a sign of stress from the removal of fan leaves. Not sure, but the roots look awesome


Thank you.
I started adding Bud xl in the past two weeks and it says that it helps move the sugars from the leaves to the flowers.
Maybe that's causing the leaves to yellow?
The plant seems too young to be having yellowing leaves, but if I did not trim off leaves, the buds would get very little light, so I keep removing a few leaves when they become a light block around the developing buds.

I am worried about keeping the nute balance correct. The pH seems to fluctuate quite a bit now.
I start the bucket at about 5.6 and it drifts up to 6.3 in a few days and then I adjust it, but then it plummets to 4.7 a few days later and keeps crashing back even if I adjust it.
I am going to hold my nerve this time and not adjust the pH down from the 6.3 mark right away to see if it drops back on its own in a more measured way.

The canna guide that I have been following recommends that I set the pH to 5.2 as the starting point and then it will remain stable and not have big swings. 
I haven't tried that yet.

I think that my saving grace is that I keep changing the buckets every 6-7 days so whatever I am doing wrong is lessened by refreshing the system frequently.

I don't feel that I know what I'm doing, and I worry that my tap water (pH 7.4/EC .5/ ppm 275) is always going to affect things so I may look into getting a ro filter for the future. 
I recently realized that I was also hurting the plant by topping up the bucket water with cold water. 
It kept dropping the bucket temp to 15-16 for an hour or so after topping up and then went back to its normal range of 18-19C. Now I keep a water heater in the water bucket.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 6, 2014)

That is why I prefer to use the 18gallon totes as opposed to the 5gal buckets. It allows for more solution to buffer the fast swings that occur with a hungry plant. When I had my 5x5 tents set up with 5 totes interconnected to each other, it worked soo well. I just kept them well aerated and had a pump to move the solution around (similar to an undercurrent) so that it stayed mixed well. I could let them go for several days then adjust the pH and go for several more, then top up without issues. I only changed out my water every 2-3 weeks, and I didn't have to lift up plants to do it. I just stuck a pump into the middle tote, which didn't have a plant in it, and sucked all of the water out, then added back new 

I would have the water tested to find out what is in it before buying an RO system. If the high ppm is just lime, which is common then a decent filter (like a "Tall Boy") will strain out some of it while the rest can be accounted for when mixing nutes. Lime just adds more calcium which can be countered easily enough.


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