# Auto v 12/12 regs



## WoodyPheonix (Aug 6, 2011)

I am just back from a visit to a friends and as usual came back with my head full of "stuff", he grows the dankest dank I have tried.

His latest "thing" is 12/12 from seed with regular seeds, growing them as you would an auto but with 12/12 lighting instead of the usual 20/4. He had told me about this experiment but I was highly dubious, especially considering the "alternating nodes" and "sexual maturity" factors. All I can say was the results surprised me.

He had a bed of 16 x 2l pots (half gal), each had a single cola plant around 12" high under a 250W dual spectrum hps. They were 60 days from seed and trichs were around half cloudy/clear so a couple of weeks to go. My guess is that each plant would yield between 20 & 30g, certainly not less than that dried.

His feed was basically Ionic for Soil and the soil was garden topsoil with perlite, lime & a bit of bone meal. No flowering boosters, he said he wanted to see how this went then give it the full beans next time around.

The seeds were not what he would usually use, they were from bagseed created by hermied nl x big bud. The space he was in was tiny, no more than 4sq ft and was what I would call a stealth grow. He said it was a great way of using suspected hermied seeds he would normally have thrown away.

Now, having seen this, I thought about bagseed I have thrown away, why hadnt I heard of this method, the comparisons with auto's came to mind also, such as, why bother with auto's if this could be done with bagseed.

By my reconing, he will have a harvest of around 16oz after 11 weeks of 12/12. Convert that back to a more usual 8 week cycle and it gives 11 1/2 oz from a 250W. 324g/250W, thats almost 1.3g/W with zero veg time. I was impressed.

As a side note, I saw no sign of nanners or seed anywhere and he is a very experienced grower, probably 20+ years and he regularly grows 8ft, 2lb plants.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?
W


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## Locked (Aug 6, 2011)

12/12 from seed does not speed up the flowering process...plain and simple.
IMHO it promotes excessive stretch and your plants wld do better on 18-6 or 24-0.  Running bagseed with known hermaphrodite problems isn't very wise either....imo

If you want to run 12/12 and want to get close to the speed of autos you might want to try the following:

1. Find a dank strain with a quick flowering period....there are strains that finish in 7 weeks(49 days).
2. Keep a mom of that strain and run clones of her. 1-2 weeks to root.
3. Veg for a short time...1-2 weeks.
4. Flip them and 49 days later you will be harvesting the Dank.

So in the above example you cld crop out after 79 days the first run and if you veg while flowering you cld crop out every 7 weeks after that.

Best part is you can make this a perpetual grow and have your flower room turning out Dank constantly. No more buying beans.
This is only my opinion...but it is what I wld do instead of running autos.


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## WoodyPheonix (Aug 6, 2011)

Your arguments were mine Hammy, all the stuff I said when I spoke to him on the phone were those you mentioned plus a few more. Alternating nodes and a plant reaching sexual maturity.
His reason for trying it out was that he had heard of it and was sceptical but wanted to see for himself what the results would be.
When I saw what I saw, I had to go back in the following morning when I was sober since I thought I had imagined it.

I can see the potential benefists for a stealth grow where you simply do not have the space for a mother plant or a separate area for veg. Yes, buying seed is obviously expensive but comparing regular seed to auto's, this could be a viable alternative for those with limited space.

Something that baffled me was that these will probably be finished in 11 weeks from first placing the seeds in a paper towel. I ran some of the big bud cuts, in fact I was the source of his big bud that ended up being the mother of these seeds. I also donated the NL which ended up hermying on him (they did me too, so much for buying from a reputable vendor). Both these strains were 10 week to 30% amber in my hydro setup at the time. So, although I too said this method could not speed up flowering, it does! The proof was there in front of my eyes yesterday.

I am not really wanting reasons why this is not a good method, I understand all the negative aspects, especially possible hermies with bagseed, it is the other side I would like to hear and hopefully have a discussion about. Has anyone tried this? Why do plants grown in equatorial regions with shorter light cycles all year round produce good yields despite the apparent lack af light.
Why did his plants show sex after less than 3 weeks? (Forgot to mention that in my description)
Why did only 1 main cola appear with no side branching?
Would this method negate the need for auto's, especially for those on a budget with space limitations. Considering the cost of electricity, using only 12 hours light instead of the 20 usually used for auto's.

I should add, since my recent experience with LEA I am not growing atm and wont be for some time so I am not in a position to give this method a try.
W


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## The Hemp Goddess (Aug 6, 2011)

I have tried this--if you have grown for long enough, you have probably tried almost everything.  I can tell you that I did not get anything like that kind of yield--maybe he is just a better grower.  Most of the 12/12 from seed yielded under 1/2 oz and took far longer than 11 weeks. I had a little better success with clones but not enough to risk the excessive plant counts growing like this requires.

I do not use bagseed.  At all.  Ever.


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## Locked (Aug 6, 2011)

WoodyPheonix said:
			
		

> I am just back from a visit to a friends and as usual came back with my head full of "stuff", he grows the dankest dank I have tried.
> 
> His latest "thing" is 12/12 from seed with regular seeds, growing them as you would an auto but with 12/12 lighting instead of the usual 20/4. He had told me about this experiment but I was highly dubious, especially considering the "alternating nodes" and "sexual maturity" factors. All I can say was the results surprised me.
> 
> ...




_*I think something is off brosef. Even taking  your low end number of 20g a plant your boy wld be pulling 11.42857  ounces from a 250w HPS At 30g it gets insane..a bit over a pound off a  250w HPS*_:holysheep: _*That is like 1.92g a watt. All  this wld also hve to be done 12/12 from the start...it wld be  impossible even if you vegged for months. That amount of lumens won't  produce that amount of bud.

The facts don't add up to me. You wld need a real long veg and more lumens then that to hit those numbers in my opinion.
*_


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## Growdude (Aug 6, 2011)

WoodyPheonix said:
			
		

> By my reconing, he will have a harvest of around 16oz after 11 weeks of 12/12. Convert that back to a more usual 8 week cycle and it gives 11 1/2 oz from a 250W. 324g/250W, thats almost 1.3g/W with zero veg time. I was impressed.
> 
> W


 
This is all guess work it sounds, a 12" plant with a 20 -30 gram dry weight bud is all guess work.

11 weeks till finished is guess work.

Finished weight is all gues work.

Ill take a guess its probably about half as much as stated.

ostpicsworthless:


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## WoodyPheonix (Aug 7, 2011)

It seems you are more interested in rubbishing what I am saying rather than engaging in a discussion on the science of germination, showing sex in under 3 weeks, no alternating nodes etc.
Just because someone does something different doesnt mean it cant be done. Likewise, just because you dont believe something, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I dont belive in God, but billions do. I wont rubbish their beliefs simply because I dont share them. I know what I saw and believe what a lifelong friend has told me.

7k L/'2, properly ventilated in a mylar lined box in a greenhouse shows me what can be achieved and is something to aim for. I have seen him grow 4ft carrots, marrows that you could hollow out & use as canoes and parsnips that taste like a beer. 

Respect to THG for the telling line "maybe he is just a better grower". At least the godess lady opened her mind to the posabilities rather than try to rubbish what I saw. Small mindedness is something that drives me up the wall and this is the last place I expected to find it, especially from a couple of guys I have a lot of respect for.

Rather than question if it is possible, perhaps exploring WHY it is possible would be more fruitful and this was the reason for my post. To be frank, I dont cate if you believed it or not, I thought you would engage in a discussion on the merits of this method with regular beans as opposed to purchasing auto beans, bearing in mind the price differential and lighting costs. 
Would a closet/stealth grower be better off considering regs @ 12/12 than more expensive auto's on 20/4?
Why do these plants not have to wait for sexual maturity in the normal way?
Why do these plants show sex in under 3 weeks?
Is this a more effective use of small spaces than auto's?

I was hoping for a debate on these types of issues and others that go against conventional growing in larger spaces. I wish I had the balls to grow just now (I dare not because of the potential consequences) because I would at least like to try this method for myself before being so fast to dismiss it. xxtp://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=51760 
Peace W


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## The Hemp Goddess (Aug 7, 2011)

I do not think that anyone is "rubbishing" you.  Many many many people have done 12/12 from seed and not gotten anything even close to what your buddy is claiming.  Some of the things he is claiming would be a biological marvel--no branching, no alternating nodes, others are highly unusual--sexing at 3 weeks, done at 11.  This _might_ happen with a very fast flowering strain, a 6-7 weeks strain, but you would not be seeing that kind of yield, especially with a 250W light.  I ran a scrog with dual 150s in a similar sized space.  It yielded about 5-1/2 ozs.  I cannot even begin to imagine 3 times the yield in the same space.  When someone is saying that they are getting amazing (actually unheard of) results with methods that many others have tried, do not be upset at being asked to show some proof.  I, too, have to say that I have some problems believing that things are exactly as you have been told--there are quite a few anomalies to this grow.

That article in ICMag was one of the inspirations for trying 12/12 from seed.  I also have to take his grow with a grain of salt...when other experienced growers cannot get the same results, something is wrong.  There is no holy grail to growing, there is no miracle product, there is no secret method that is going to double or triple your normal yields.


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## bho_expertz (Aug 7, 2011)

Maybe this is a new experience for your friend but that is made lot's of times by lot's of ppl with lot's of different skill levels. Without veg time you can have more plants. That is SOG from seed. It is good for a fast grow but the quality/quantity will suffer a lot. But it can be done.

But you need to have one thing in mind. The USA growers suffer a little of the problem of their country. BIG. They always want things BIG. The european way is different. But both are good if you have the time/space.


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## Locked (Aug 7, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I do not think that anyone is "rubbishing" you.  Many many many people have done 12/12 from seed and not gotten anything even close to what your buddy is claiming.  Some of the things he is claiming would be a biological marvel--no branching, no alternating nodes, others are highly unusual--sexing at 3 weeks, done at 11.  This _might_ happen with a very fast flowering strain, a 6-7 weeks strain, but you would not be seeing that kind of yield, especially with a 250W light.  I ran a scrog with dual 150s in a similar sized space.  It yielded about 5-1/2 ozs.  I cannot even begin to imagine 3 times the yield in the same space.  When someone is saying that they are getting amazing (actually unheard of) results with methods that many others have tried, do not be upset at being asked to show some proof.  I, too, have to say that I have some problems believing that things are exactly as you have been told--there are quite a few anomalies to this grow.
> 
> That article in ICMag was one of the inspirations for trying 12/12 from seed.  I also have to take his grow with a grain of salt...when other experienced growers cannot get the same results, something is wrong.  There is no holy grail to growing, there is no miracle product, there is no secret method that is going to double or triple your normal yields.





:yeahthat:


> vBulletin Message                                                                                               You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to The Hemp Goddess again.


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## Locked (Aug 7, 2011)

WoodyPheonix said:
			
		

> It seems you are more interested in rubbishing what I am saying rather than engaging in a discussion on the science of germination, showing sex in under 3 weeks, no alternating nodes etc.
> Just because someone does something different doesnt mean it cant be done. Likewise, just because you dont believe something, doesnt mean it doesnt exist. I dont belive in God, but billions do. I wont rubbish their beliefs simply because I dont share them. I know what I saw and believe what a lifelong friend has told me.



Not sure what you read but I think I did kinda go over the "*Science*" part of this grow...Those numbers off of that many lumens don't add up....Plenty have run 12/12 from seed and no one claims results even close to these.  Your friend seems to be defying the laws of science imo.  To many things don't ring true. Anybody who has been growing for a while wld question these results.  I hve run single cola lolipops from clone before much like your friend and they were lucky to pull 10-12 grams dry off each plant...and that was under a 1000 watts of HPS power.  So saying I am just dismissing your friends claims is not true. If it wld not be such a pain in the asss to do I wld run some beans 12/12 from seed and let you see just how unimpressive this method is.


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## Growdude (Aug 7, 2011)

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Not sure what you read but I think I did kinda go over the "*Science*" part of this grow...Those numbers off of that many lumens don't add up....Plenty have run 12/12 from seed and no one claims results even close to these.  Your friend seems to be defying the laws of science imo.  To many things don't ring true. Anybody who has been growing for a while wld question these results.  I hve run single cola lolipops from clone before much like your friend and they were lucky to pull 10-12 grams dry off each plant...and that was under a 1000 watts of HPS power.  So saying I am just dismissing your friends claims is not true. If it wld not be such a pain in the asss to do I wld run some beans 12/12 from seed and let you see just how unimpressive this method is.


 
As I stated its all based off a "guess" of what each bud will weigh dry.
And nobody knows if they will finish at 11 weeks.


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## Locked (Aug 7, 2011)

Growdude said:
			
		

> As I stated its all based off a "guess" of what each bud will weigh dry.
> And nobody knows if they will finish at 11 weeks.



Understood....I just don't want to see a bunch of new growers getting their hopes up. In My Opinion the science doesn't back up the numbers that are being "guessed" at.


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## SunWolf (Aug 7, 2011)

WoodyPheonix said:
			
		

> It seems you are more interested in rubbishing what I am saying rather than engaging in a discussion on the science of germination, showing sex in under 3 weeks, no alternating nodes etc.


Why is it, when you state your *guessed at* numbers you call it "discussing", whist everybody who has *tried it* and gotten different *results* you call "rubbishing"??  :confused2:

Here, pass this instead!   :48:


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## Hick (Aug 8, 2011)

Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> I only grew 12/12 a few years back. I got at least an ounce from each plant, some way more. I mainly grew short flowering strains organically in 11 litre pots. 90% of the plants I grew showed sex within 21 days. None displayed alternating nodes. It is a myth that plants must show alternating nodes before being sexually mature. This is a misconception that has been regurgitated hundreds of times on this forum. The only times I've gotten alternating nodes is when I vegged first. All strains I grew were ready in 11/12 weeks. There was absolutley no lack in quality. This is fact.



  well, you have "regurgitated" your "opinion", but that doesn't make it fact.  We don't propagate or regurgitate myths here.  
Of course plants will flower eventually under 12/12, but both yeild and potency suffer. "IME"...and THAT is a "fact"


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## SmokeMyPiece (Aug 9, 2011)

Just find a pic of a flowering plant that hasn't begun to alternate nodes.


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## Locked (Aug 9, 2011)

While I think a plant can be sexually mature without alternating nodes I sure don't think it is even close to the norm.

This is a great read and it is well illustrated>>>> weedguru.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=88&t=26629


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## Hick (Aug 9, 2011)

> Before the start of flowering, the phyllotaxy (leaf arrangement) reverses and the number of leaflets per leaf decreases until a small single leaflet appears below each pair of calyxes. *The phyllotaxy also changes from decussate (opposite) to alternate (staggered)* and usually remains alternate throughout the floral stages regardless of sexual type.
> Many factors influence the production of THC. In general,* the older a plant, the greater its potential to produce THC.*
> After that, the provision of adequate organic nutrients, water, sunlight, fresh air, growing space, and *time for maturation seems to be the key to producing high-THC Cannabis in all circumstances.*Stress resulting from inadequacies in the environment limits the true expression of phenotype and cannabinoid potential. Cannabis finds a normal adaptive defense in the production of THC laden resins, and it seems logical that a healthy plant is best able to raise this defense. *Forcing plants to produce is a perverse ideal and alien to the principles of organic agriculture. Plants are not machines that can be worked faster and harder to produce more.* The life processes of the plant rely on delicate natural balances aimed at the ultimate survival of the plant until it reproduces. The most a Cannabis cultivator or researcher can expect to do is provide all the requisites for healthy growth and guide the plant until it matures.


from mj botany


> It is in between the latter part of the Vegetative Phase and/or the early part of Flower/Bloom phase that Cannabis plants mature sexually. This most often occurs after the onset of Alternating Phyllotaxy. In early stages of vegetative growth, new leaf sets at every node will be parallel to each other. Meaning that the leaf stems (petioles) attach at the same point on the main stem (meristem) when compared to the nodes just above and below. When the plant begins to sexually mature, these leaf sets at one node will be perpendicular (90 degree angle) to the one's just above and below that node. When you begin to see this alternation of leafsets (Alternating Phyllotaxy) from one node to the next, you're plants will be showing preflowers very soon!
> Upon reaching sexual maturity, Cannabis plants will display their "Preflowers" ....


 Rellikbuzz from Breedbay


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## Locked (Aug 9, 2011)

Hick no fair bringing science into this discussion.....


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## HemperFi (Sep 4, 2011)

You go Hick,

I have really been wondering what to look for when the plants start showing either male or female. Thank you.


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## Hick (Sep 4, 2011)

MJ sex ed
there ya' go hf'..   another "regurgitation"...:rofl:


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 4, 2011)

HemperFi said:
			
		

> You go Hick,
> 
> I have really been wondering what to look for when the plants start showing either male or female. Thank you.



This is something that you are probably not going to have to worry about for 4-6 weeks, so don't get too anxious about this.  Once you have seen the difference between a boy and a girl, you should have no problems identifying one from the other--just like in real life


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## SunWolf (Sep 4, 2011)

Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> <snip> What will it take for me to proove that what I say is true ? Should I do another journal ? Even then would you believe what I post ... maybe then I'm only fabricating results to prove a point. I'm guessing the only way you can prove it is do it yourself. <snip>




:aok:  I would like to see you journal it. Including all the setup info, your lights, soil (or hydro) setup, ventilation...the whole 9 yards.  Give us a full blown, seed to harvest, front row seat to your methods.  Let us see in action, what you are trying to get us to believe.

 I'm working on an experiment of my own.  I have one of my new seedlings that I have put straight under 12/12 400w hps. She is one of a pair of Nirvana's Papaya strain, her sister is being grown normally under 24/0 until sexed, then into flowering.   A side by side trial, if you will.


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## bho_expertz (Sep 7, 2011)

Love the bending on that Papaya Runby. Very very nice.

@ PuffinNugs - Know some ppl that do some SOG from seed directly to 12/12 and the difference is that they can put 30 plants in a 13 square foot, instead of 8 with 2/3 weeks veg.

That plant looks more then 2 weeks veg ... i would bet 3 or 3 1/2.

It is all in the way you want to do things. :aok:


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 7, 2011)

Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> Will start a journal soon. Best of luck in your experiments. The main thing is to enjoy and have fun. Have grown Papaya several times now, you won't be disappointed. Actually have monster Papaya plant in flowering tent at the moment that was vegged outdoors for few months. Have clones from her that I took a month ago which will be put into flowering any day.
> 
> Not all plants will stretch like the pic you posted above Puffin'. It's just matter of finding the right strain
> 
> ...


I hate to engage in this debate as I don't have the experience to offer my opinion or experience.   However I have to make an observation and ask a question; Runby, you have stated that growing under 12/12 from seed produces equal quality in less time. I am not doubting you at this point, but if that is true, why do you grow plants outside in veg for several months when you can complete the grow faster using your stated method? Not trying to be sarcastic, just curious.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 7, 2011)

cool


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## 7greeneyes (Sep 7, 2011)

WELL like someone dead once said...put up or shut up.

Criteria should be thus: same strain,same medium method, same lumens/light footprint, right down to the venting/heating.


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## SunWolf (Sep 7, 2011)

7greeneyes said:
			
		

> WELL like someone dead once said...put up or shut up.
> 
> Criteria should be thus: same strain,same medium method, same lumens/light footprint, right down to the venting/heating.




:confused2:  We are "putting up".  Runbyhemp and PuffinNugs are showing and discussing past results, and myself starting out my own test and journaling the results.  Nobody's talking out their "anal sphincters".

Here, hit this!

:bong:


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