# Can "Religious Freedom" be a defense?



## Rehab is for Quitters (Jun 6, 2008)

I was just reading an article that explained why minors (under 21) are legally permitted to drink alcohol in the Catholic Church, in spite of laws prohibiting such behavior: The State/Federal laws on alcohol consumption are *trumped* by the laws of Religious Freedom in the United States and drinking the "blood of Christ" is part of the religious doctrine of the Catholic Church.

So it occurred to me.....could Religious Freedom be applied to mj usage? What if smoking pot is part of my religious doctrine (as I believe is the case for Rastafarians)? *Can the US government deny me the right to practice my religion??*

Would appreciate any insight from you legal eagles out there. And if there is a glimmer of hope in this strategy, who wants to join my religion?  :48:


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## LowRider (Jun 6, 2008)

Rasta's are jailed here everyday in the US, along with raids on those so called 420 church's.


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## snuggles (Jun 6, 2008)

Indian Reservations can decide their own laws, not sure if it's all of them or of the technical points.


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## LowRider (Jun 6, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> Indian Reservations can decide their own laws, not sure if it's all of them or of the technical points.


 
your right on that.  but we have treaties with them.  they were smart when making the treaties and have pretty much there own laws.  there basically a country inside a country.


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## slowmo77 (Jun 6, 2008)

ya i've read alot about religious freedoms, some say cannabis oil was apart of the fisrt sacrament used by many religons as an annointing oil. so if we are to beleive the bill of rights and our 1st amendment it should be protected. but in 1970 i think a law was passed preventing anyone claiming religous use of mj or anything else the government thinks we shouldn't do. so there is your religious freedom.. Im an ordained minister and beleive its part of my religion. if you believe it makes you closer to who/whatever it is you pray to the stand behind it but don't use religion as an excuse.

 everything i just said maybe wrong its based off what i've read 
 as well as my personal thoughts and beliefs so if im wrong about something please let me know.. thanks


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## Slartibartfast (Jun 6, 2008)

You'd have to file a class action suit and entice thousands of people claiming the same religious doctrine to  joint up.  We could drive tractors to Washington.


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## GreenMan74 (Jun 7, 2008)

I don't think it can work.  While there is no doubt as to the spiritual aspects of cannabis, and those aspects are just as real and valid as the medicinal properties - even with the medicinal properties, there is an angle from which we may appear very disingenuous in our legalization efforts.  How much more so it would be with religious freedom as the main proponent.
     Here is this lovely plant that frees the mind, growing like a weed potentially everywhere.  It is every government's worst nightmare.  It shouldn't be, but for power's tendency to cling to itself and the fear of change.
     But I think, I humbly suggest, that we tend to take this issue in a more head-on way.  This is a plant that alters the consciousness, and that is something we have the right to do.  Saturday nights and Monday mornings if we so choose.  It's our own minds, not theirs.  This plant, and the other _entheogens_ are here for a purpose.  It is a highly spiritual purpose, but we'll never all congeal into a religion.  So I think we should be defending it more on the ground we commonly stand on, the right to operate our own minds. 
    And of course with great tenacity continue to fight for those who have a medical need, but most of us do not, and we shouldn't be jumping on that bus if it isn't the case.  The first victories are happening in the medical area because it is real.  If a busload of hipsters suddenly come up with a medical need, it only undercuts progress already made.


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## Dubbaman (Jun 7, 2008)

Ironic how everyone is concerned with how the law still is concerned where its a god given right to use the plant old testament says "all *seed bearing* plants and *herbs* to use and yes it doesn't get specific as to what uses but we were also granted the gift of imagination and creativity to make uses, the fact that we let other "men" control what they think is best for all doesn't say we should follow one "lawful" religion when every religion has stated about how powerful this plant is and the wonders it can work and if I'm not mistaken isn't Jesus said and written to have healed with it in his time on earth.


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## Nova (Jun 7, 2008)

Rehab is for Quitters said:
			
		

> I was just reading an article that explained why minors (under 21) are legally permitted to drink alcohol in the Catholic Church, in spite of laws prohibiting such behavior: The State/Federal laws on alcohol consumption are *trumped* by the laws of Religious Freedom in the United States and drinking the "blood of Christ" is part of the religious doctrine of the Catholic Church.
> 
> So it occurred to me.....could Religious Freedom be applied to mj usage? What if smoking pot is part of my religious doctrine (as I believe is the case for Rastafarians)? *Can the US government deny me the right to practice my religion??*
> 
> Would appreciate any insight from you legal eagles out there. And if there is a glimmer of hope in this strategy, who wants to join my religion?  :48:



Then again, booze isnt necessarily a controlled substance! Im sure the altar boys arent sitting in back killing bottles of wine either. 

However, i am with you! the government does everything it can to prosecute the innocent, so in light of it, we should do the same. Let's throw the book at them! 

The government makes these laws, however the government isnt perfect, just as we arent. We, the people, have to play their game! Use their tactics against them, and it will send them running with their tails tucked between their legs! This country is for the people and by the people, these days that motto seems lost, and its sad!

Like the Beastie Boys said, "You gotta fight! For your right, to PAAAAAA-RTY!" 

Let's party! Every time they try to cut us down, like a weed we will grow in numbers again! When they push us down, lets take a hit and blow the wonderful aroma of freedom in their face! 

WE ARE ALL FREE! I WAS BORN TO A WONDERFUL COUNTRY THAT I NEVER ONCE SAID I WOULD FOLLOW THE LAWS OF. I HAD NO VOTE IN THE LAWS SET IN THE PAST. WHY SHOULD I FOLLOW A LAW I HAD NO PART IN GETTING PASSED?

Laws of the past dont necessarily turn out to be worthwhile in the future, most of them time they do more harm and cost more money to enforce because they arent updated!  Laws dating back to Cold War era have no relevance now days, why? There is no more Cold War! So those laws concerning the cold war should be abolished or revised!

I think a statutory review period of 10 years should be placed on all laws! After 10 years, a law is revised to reflect any new changes, and then those changes are voted on. If the majority votes the changes are unacceptable, they must continue to revise until the law is accepted by the majority. I also believe there should not be laws against the safe practices of ANY medical treatment, as long as it under a board certified physician in good standing.

Nova


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## ChatNoir (Jun 7, 2008)

It is theoretical possible, there is a Church in USA who believes in that world is created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster and this theory is taught at schools along with Christian Doctrine and Scientific Truth... If you can get more than thirty thousand people believing in your religion and get it a legal religion then it is theoretically possible yet lawmakers are just bending the laws to the point that suits them best... Theory does not necessarily to be in compliance with practice. This is the "free" world.


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## snuggles (Jun 7, 2008)

Problem with MJ is it will destroy our gov't, no one seems to get the implications of legalization, special interest groups are here to make sure that their big business interests are protected, the legalization of MJ and Hemp would be catastrophic to certain businesses and our gov't who depends on their money....where are all the people, hiding in their houses? LOL I wasn't aiming it at you guys just at the sheep who listen without thinking for themselves...I'm not saying break the law I'm saying think and do your own research and then maybe we have a shot maybe.

"We the people...."

*not*

"We the corporations...."


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## ChatNoir (Jun 7, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> Problem with MJ is it will destroy our gov't, no one seems to get the implications of legalization, special interest groups are here to make sure that their big business interests are protected, the legalization of MJ and Hemp would be catastrophic to certain businesses and our gov't who depends on their money....where are all the people, hiding in their houses? LOL I wasn't aiming it at you guys just at the sheep who listen without thinking for themselves...I'm not saying break the law I'm saying think and do your own research and then maybe we have a shot maybe.
> 
> "We the people...."
> 
> ...



I wish it were possible though corporations rule the world not goverments... A sad story indeed... *listens to Counting Bodies Like Sheep to The Ryhm of War Drums"


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## Bleek187 (Jun 7, 2008)

Fact is.. Catholic church has been around for so long and pulls some weight..  so drinking a tiny shot of "jesus blood" or wine is just not a big deal. if they were handing out 40s to 12 year olds at church im pretty sure that wouldnt fly... If you could use this to get away with smoken weed then you would open a door that is better left naild shut... all kinds of new religions would pop up with drug use in its religious doctrine.. so no.. you can not use it.


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## Bleek187 (Jun 7, 2008)

would be catastrophic to certain businesses and our gov't who depends on their money?????

lol no... if our government was smart they would legalize and tax it.. or legalize and regulate it... kinda like a state lottery.. or even better like alcohol... most states abc stores are owned and run by the state... you cant get liquor unless you buy it from them.. if the government did the same with MJ they would make rediculous amounts of money... because even tho people would grow and sell it still... you cant tell me that billions of people wouldnt just go to the store and buy it..  the fact is it would prolly help the economy.. but nomatter what it will never be legal unless our government changes over to free tax... and that will never happen ether...


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## snuggles (Jun 7, 2008)

How much would they have to tax it, Hemp and MJ are very very dangerous to many types of business and our gov't will get close to 20 billion for a drug war, we have the highest prison pop. in the world which is a business in itself. Problem is the tax would be insane, alcohol doesn't even threaten any business. I must disagree with you they make so much money off of it now how much would they have to tax it, plus like I said it affects all kinds of business alkie doesn't.


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## Bleek187 (Jun 7, 2008)

wate... prisons are state and government funded.. not a business at all.. in fact its our tax money that pays to run prisons..  

and i dont understand your point... "dangerous to many types of business"   such as?


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## Bleek187 (Jun 7, 2008)

and you do realize that alcohol was ilegal before canibus was.. you couldnt get a beer but you could blaze a L... so its posable for alcohol to be an ilegal underground intoxicant and then to be legalized, taxed, and state/government operated but the same couldnt be done with weed?


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## LowRider (Jun 7, 2008)

Bleek187 said:
			
		

> wate... prisons are state and government funded.. not a business at all.. in fact its our tax money that pays to run prisons..
> 
> and i dont understand your point... "dangerous to many types of business" such as?


 
Actually there are privately owned prisons and publicly traded prisons on the stock market.  how you like that.


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## Bleek187 (Jun 7, 2008)

smart ***... how about this... how many privately owned prisons and publicly traded prisons are there?  how many are state and government run and funded?  get back to me


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## Bleek187 (Jun 7, 2008)

Less than 5% - 52,370 inmates &#8211; are housed in private facilities of U.S. prisons

so ... how do you.... like that... =)


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## snuggles (Jun 7, 2008)

We're getting off topic but give me proof of the 5%. Hemp and marijuana would effect the following businesses and it's a short list cause I'm tired...

1.alkie
2.tobacco
3.healthcare
4.law enforcement (includes everyone in the legal system that needs to keep their job..lawyers, LEO, judges etc.)
5.pharma
6.criminal underground (and yes they have tendrils in Washington)
7.synthetics
8.oil
9.paper
10.cosmetics
11.textile industry
12.construction industry

and that's just a few

In the late 30's it was reported that hemp would be the first billion dollar industry in this country. Also most prisons have employees and some prisons do 'free' work for communities i.e hard labor, community service. If they let out all the non violent drug offenders tommorrow the money and amount of prisoners would be cut in half. It is estimated that MJ could take away from 80% of pharma sales etc. etc.

Not trying to discredit you but what kind of tax is going to cover that? What do they tell all the unemployed? IMO it would be catastrophic to all gov'ts and a ton of big business. Hemp is the greenest thing on our planet in my mind.


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## snuggles (Jun 7, 2008)

Bleek187 said:
			
		

> Less than 5% - 52,370 inmates &#8211; are housed in private facilities of U.S. prisons
> 
> so ... how do you.... like that... =)


 
also not saying your wrong but I did a search and got so many different answers. Plus the gov't doesn't pay, well they do in the form of our tax dollars

look at this read the first paragraph and tell me if the word profit doesn't jump out at you it did to me.

*en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_prisons*

They say 260 some prisons and almost 100,000 prisoners but I get different stats everywhere I look LOL. Also look who runs the prisons some pretty big companies, that throw billions a year at the feds to keep themoney coming in, in the form of "criminals". Marujauna and hemp are very dangerous to the big guys for us we will always be fighting an uphill battle and the taxing would have to be a huge amount.

It's all about the big bucks, we have the highest prison pop. in the world and only 15% or so of the world's population. Our legal/criminal system is a capitalist type it's gotta make money LOL. I always hear let's tax it and I just don't agree, also who says I am right it's JMO that's all.


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## ChatNoir (Jun 7, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> also not saying your wrong but I did a search and got so many different answers. Plus the gov't doesn't pay, well they do in the form of our tax dollars
> 
> look at this read the first paragraph and tell me if the word profit doesn't jump out at you it did to me.
> 
> ...



Actually taxing cannabis will relieve all the burden and will have greater income in the form of industry, new product lines as well as tourism incomes. Breeding cannabis in fields is not such a hard job and requires very little amount of effort on the side of breeder, breeding hemp for recreational uses is also very cheap when you do it in a field though super quality of home bred cannabis can never be achieved.

On the long run, corporations will be damaged greatly and the people in power for the better part of 20th century will fall from power and they certainly do not want this to happen so... so... so... so... well... Who knows...


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## Bleek187 (Jun 7, 2008)

off topic is a good point... But canibus would not destroy the government. nor would it effect big biss such as tobacco, healthcare, law enforcement, ect... as with any bissness it would take away from someone elses profets yes.. but not in  a way that would destroy them or have an effect on the government.. to say so is rediculous..  example... tobacco.. tobacco is going to make money regardless.. you dont stop smoking because you can get weed legaly.... if anything your high more often and therefor smoke more..  and textiles may take a hit yea.. but at the same time your gonna create another multi billion dollar industry... hemp is already used widely all over the world.. (yes even here in the US and my great state)  as far as others... law enforcement?? kidding??  so if we dont have pot heads to bust anymore cops are gonna loose there jobs? we gonna fire half the judges?  seriously?  State funded and a must.. i dont think lawyers and judges and cops are gonna loose there jobs because weed is legal.. they did it with alcohol.. they could do it with canibus also.. but they never will..


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## snuggles (Jun 7, 2008)

I think you are missing the point, all those big businesses throw billions of dollars a year at the gov't. Plastics would be obsolete, and if you take away a large part of the MJ problem it will effect LEO, they need to turn profits too. I live in a commonwealth and we use money generated from crime (fines etc.) to fund our state gov't. Of course we use Hemp, we need to import it and it's marked up through the roof. Why? What would all the textile and synthetic companies do just roll over and die? What would insurance companies do if their profits went down, what would pharma do? Yes alcohol was illegal for a second and guess what it started? A crime wave...the mob. Plus more people drink than smoke, an estimated 80 million americans smoke, but if they had a better legal option many would change over to MJ. Also when MJ becomes legal alcohol is going to look worse in the people's eyes. And I'm telling you if stopped prosecuting MJ users it would drop revenues, are cops going to work for free? Where I live the crimes pay the police, commonwealth. Just look at what hemp could do in itself. IMO opinion the gov't would lose tons, maybe they would get back eventually but that's a big maybe IMO. As for tobacco and alcohol they both would be affected but I'll start another thread later tomorrow or if you want go ahead.

Like I said we are on the same side and I think disagreements are good, it shows passion on both sides and I'm sure we could all learn from each other. Good stuff too BTW. I think we should do a legalization thread, but from the perspective that we have been talking. The legal system is a business and so is the prison system. Oil is needed in synthetics, which hemp could replace and it's biodegradable. Also hemp oil in itself is a big big danger. Also tobacco would be affected otherwise they wouldn't be one of the big Drug War donors. Imagine if MJ is legal and all the sudden the truth comes out, MJ is not deadly like we have been told...people will want a crack down on tobacco again. i.e. if tobacco kills say 100k a year and cannabios none they no longer have a leg to stand on it will look very bad for them. And alkie is afraid people will jump ship, and they will cause it's safe and NOW legal.

Also I think we are missing two very important things...control and power.


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## LowRider (Jun 7, 2008)

yeah but you make some what of a point but not all the money is kept with the drugs.  remember criminals are smart.  they don't keep drugs with the loot.  the money that is usually caught is more then likely money they made from a sale(s).  the ghettos you won't see money stored or being counted in the same house that's dealing.  they keep there money separate.  same goes with these big bust else wear.  what were seeing is only the icing on the cake.  Also i don't see companies hurting all that bad.  they will adapt and you'll be able to buy an L at the store next to your favorite cigar/cig.  it will be common place if ever legalized.  Also the pharmaceutical companies would adapt also cause they would want to separate the Cannabinoids  
 in the marijuana to create lotions or what have you.  like any business they will adapt or be lost and since they make billions they will have no problem adapting.  right now as it stands the biggest proponent of this mess is the Gov. and no one else.  some states are ahead of the game and we need to start going to other states and spread the brotherly love and get these stupid laws changed.


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## Bleek187 (Jun 7, 2008)

tobacco is here to stay.. if "the people" want to crack down on it... 2 bad.. they donate money to the government and every party to get in bed with them not because they know if weed was legal they would go broke.. they wouldnt...

i donno how they come up with the numbers that say more people drink than smoke but i can tell you this.. everybody smokes weed... its rediculous how many people actualy do it.. its everywhere.. and people are paying 500 bucks an ounce... i paid 35 bucks for a half a gal of everclear the other night.. 190 proof... but a 8th of an ounce of weed is 50 bucks?  U do realize that this would probably become one of the most profitable businesses in the US.... and drug war would in no way decline.. it would actualy be more effective.. now insted of cops waisting time and money to bust some guy growing weed, maby they can go get a coke dealer or bust tha guy who sells my friend crack... wouldnt this be better than taken a dangerous 19 year old pothead off the streets?  

regardless of what who beleaves here... the fact still remains that weed will prolly never be legal for 029384092384099 reasons..  the plant was outlawd for control reasons... they used it as a scapegoat to get other things they wanted done done.. for the government to overturn this law that has been establishd for so long now is just never gonna happen.. so we can prolly stop talkn about it now =)

IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO IMO    and...... IMO


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## snuggles (Jun 7, 2008)

LowRider said:
			
		

> Also the pharmaceutical companies would adapt also cause they would want to separate the Cannabinoids
> in the marijuana to create lotions or what have you. like any business they will adapt or be lost and since they make billions they will have no problem adapting.


 
They are already adapting, look at all the cannabinoid studies over the last 8 years and the numbers are going up, their adaptation has already started and this is another reason why it will stay illegal and it's also my biggest fear...it will get worse, it has been for years. They are going to keep it illegal, they will have synthsized our wonderful plant. You can't patent a plant but you can synthesize it and have it all for yourself, Pharma is a juggernaut with so much money. They don't share now why would they in the future. I honestly believe that Pharma will be given forst dibs and I would be shocked if they haven't already started developing their medicine. Look at all the stuff they have already that uses cannabinoid science, but it's a pill. My biggest fear has always been that...they get first dibs in my mind and they are running with it their new wonder drugs will not be our plant. Also I know what you are saying about seizures and LEO, they do seize property left and right and that's just a drop in the bucket. Look at a business any business and answer me this, if it were to lose 5 to 10% of it's customers it would have to lay off people, works the same in the legal world, and not too mention there are commonwealths like my state that rely on that money otherwise me and every other PA resident will be paying higher taxes, you think any non smokers wanna pay more cause we legaized what they consider satan NO WAY. 

Just do me a favor guys and look at Hemp and you will see who and what it will affect? Hemp is more durable, biodegradeable, requires no fertilizer, healthy, grows quick, had few disease problems, requires minimal effort, etc. But we are a cotton, synthetic world. They will do anything to protect themselves and just look at the money the big businesses throw at anti marijuana. Heck even National Geographic is a huge contributor, why? Umm paper, they own some paper mills LOL. If you look hard enough you will see who is throwing the money at the war and how much.

I agree though if someone big was smart enough they would start to get ready to convert to hemp, t's a big chance but if it works out they would be the new gods in this world I guarantee it. It's the most dangerous plant in the world, just look at the money thrown at it, THEY FEAR IT just like we fear LEO LOL.

Also you want Phillip Morris growing MJ, using the same fertilizer they use for cigs? Radioactive phosphorous? LOL. Hemp would put the american farmer in power, they don't want that. Billionaires want to remain billionaires and will do anything to keep it that way anything, including whole sale selling out of his fellow man. Plus the war on MJ is a constant money maker, it's a stable money maker. it's the easiest drug to detect and the most used behind cigs and alcohol, and IMO the most safe and that will come out if it's legalized. It's a war of fear and intimidation, control and power and the almighty dollar. Back like 5 years ago it would have hurt local law enforcement to the tune of 16 billion dollars add another 18 billion and that's just the tip of the iceburg in the legal world and that was five years ago that's 30 billion dollars divde that by about 50 million users (which is high) and then on top of that add in every other industry that has to change or be destroyed, guys we're talking tons and tons of money are we going to pay for it? Who is? The whole world is turning green but where is our hemp? Plus they can't control a plant and that is another problem, it's impossible. It would be a major overhaul to our system, you and I want that but does the occasional or anti MJ person? Do they wanna pay for it? heck no. Plus I don't know about you but why pay when you can grow? It's too risky for them IMO.

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26823

LOL I was writing while you were posting here's the new thread, no reason to stop many people can learn from it even you and I...and yes tobacco is here to stay but they will be scrutinized again. 40% of our population is alcoholic and that's just alcoholic not aw drinker. Alcohol is America's drug of choice by a mile, but probably cause it's legal and ACCEPTED MJ is not maybe to me and you but to most nope. LOL have a good night guys, nice to meet you BTW bleek187, you make many good points and I do agree with some, anyways I put up a new link as we destrpyed this poor thread...I talk too much LOL.


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## snuggles (Jun 7, 2008)

Wow talk about religious freedom:holysheep:


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## Dadgumit (Jun 8, 2008)

Anyway...  

Excellent exponation snuggles; I concur with your hypothesies.  Money is the fuel of the political/federal machine and we of the common cloth are but indentured servants subsiding on the meager pittance allotted to us by it/them.  Hemp could be the agricultural goldmine that would save the planet (bio-fuel) and through its many applications be an economic boon to our economy, but that would (probably) require a complete re-structuring of our government to accomplish.  

Isn't it funny that we are paying taxes and fees for our own "inalienable rights"?  At one point I did some research on establishing my personal sovereignty from the United States: thus revoking my own citizen status (within the US and all US owned territories) and all of the supposed "privileges" that go with it.  Just remember that "privileges" can be taken away, but "rights" are established by Natural Law; such as life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness (HOWEVER we may choose to define that for ourselves) and are ours because of our very existence as human beings.  In fact, the only law of Natural Law is that your rights under Natural Law shall not violate the rights of another as established under Natural Law.  The insanity of slavery in the US was condoned because it was determined that the Africans were "savages" (i.e. less than human) and thus not afforded the protection of inalienable rights.  

We surrender our rights of Natural Law to the United States in exchange for the governments agreement to provide protection from any person, place or thing that wishes to violate your person, place or thing.  This exchange occurs in the form of being ascribed the label of "citizen".  With the self  proclamation that you are a "citizen" of the United States you hereby agree to the terms and conditions (expressed and implied) of the now binding social contract between you and the federal government that establishes that you are basically incapable of taking care of yourself or making any rational, personal judgements, and that you allow the government to provide for you and to make all of the rational decisions for you.  

And with that your rights have been bought before you even knew you sold them...    

That's it - I'm going to bed! LOL    I was attempting to expound on your presentation that there are powerful forces moving behind the scenes affecting our lives (and none of them have our best interest in mind) but I guess I boondoggled!


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## Bleek187 (Jun 8, 2008)

hey dad... id like to start a thread and go into more detail about this..  

"establishing my personal sovereignty from the United States: thus revoking my own citizen status (within the US and all US owned territories) and all of the supposed "privileges" that go with it"

this is very interesting to me as i have had some exposure to this in the past but never got much info on it.. so let me explain what happend

a few years back i meet a guy who pitched this idea to me. He seamd to be a well rounded person with a good head on his neck lol... He lived in a nice part of town and owned a very nice house, a few nice cars, and had a normal family, wife and children..  he started to tell me about this personal sovereignty idea.. he gave me some things to read and some web sites to visit... The main thing that sucked me in was when he told me that by doing this you will get rid of any debt you have built up.. Now, as this was years ago i can not recall the exact details but i remember it sounded great.. So i checked into the web sites he gave me and read some crazy stuff.. But as i learnd more and more about this i came across lots of information about how it is a scam.. one of the biggest turnoffs for me was when i found out the guy who did the oklahoma city bombing was into this.. kinda made me think it might be a bad idea.. i also read alot of things that were very putoffish, if that is a word, about this idea... So that is where i stoped looking into it.. But i would like to get more info about it along with some personal opinions.


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## Dadgumit (Jun 8, 2008)

Bleek187 said:
			
		

> i also read alot of things that were very putoffish, if that is a word, about this idea... So that is where i stoped looking into it.. But i would like to get more info about it along with some personal opinions.


 
I too read some things that would be a bit difficult in the modern world (like having to pay for everything with pure silver or gold) but I read alot that made so much sense.  Like the part I just put up about relinquishing our rights - and that we can regain our rights by renouncing our citizenship, because the defense is that our rights were relinquished by proxy through our parents beforewe had the option to _choose_ whether or not we wanted to relinquish them ourselves.  

You would not have any debt.  There would be no taxes.  In the era of the Patriot Act, I would want to research this more thoroughly before proceeding.  Rather than being someone who wants to protect and preserve their inalienable rights, one could be perceived as a threat and enemy to the regime and be booked a room at the Hotel Leavenworth...

Don't let anyone tell you you're being paranoid - "the beast" is out of control.


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## slowmo77 (Jun 8, 2008)

i just watched a program on the history channel. according to them mj was first banned in the 30's the real reason behind it was the borders.. the saw mj a something our neigbors to the south were bringing to the U.S. and inorder to try to keep them on their side of the fence.. it was called the Maraijuana stamp act. this is exactly what the history channel said friday morning. the stamp act was over turned soon after. but i can't remember all of it yet i gotta smoke first. 

sounds like this is a touchy issue for some people. I don't think we should get all worked up over it.. its aginst the law.. no matter how angry we get or frustrated nothing you say to anyone on here is gonna help.. this is a friendly place filled with like minded people.. even if we don't see eye to eye we share a common ground.. our love of the plant.. If your angry about the laws we live with contact your congress man or even better take a trip to your state capital building and express your anger there. I don't think getting upset with each other will ever help our cause. JMO


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## Bleek187 (Jun 8, 2008)

yea... well ill kick your ***.... lol  j/k


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## Rehab is for Quitters (Jun 8, 2008)

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I can't find anywhere where these cases were overturned, but I'm still checking. In any case, you gotta love the Ninth Circuit![/FONT]



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> *9th Circuit Court of Appeals Rules Religion May Be Defense to Marijuana Possession*
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## Dadgumit (Jun 8, 2008)

slowmo77 said:
			
		

> sounds like this is a touchy issue for some people. I don't think we should get all worked up over it.. its aginst the law.. no matter how angry we get or frustrated nothing you say to anyone on here is gonna help.. this is a friendly place filled with like minded people.. even if we don't see eye to eye we share a common ground.. our love of the plant.. If your angry about the laws we live with contact your congress man or even better take a trip to your state capital building and express your anger there. I don't think getting upset with each other will ever help our cause. JMO


 
Interesting... :huh:  I don't see anything confrontational or "touchy" about this - just people sharing ideas and perspectives and no one is angry or bitter in the least.  I think self expression was actually the common ground we shared that began this insightful discussion in the first place and I am more enlightened because of it.  

Thank you to all who posted.


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## snuggles (Jun 8, 2008)

I agree I even Pmed bleek and introduced myself, we all get along great. Yes MO I know it's the law, I am verhactive in the legalization effort too. I don't want to not be an Anerican but you best believe I will be looking into maybe moving somewhere safer and more to my tastes...yes I'm talking about leaving this country when I can. I can't live here anymore, I take the whole war personally and I have had enough...sounds like I'm a bad guy but if I can't be a hermit and smoke the occasional joint on my own time in my own house then I have to leave...I can't imagine 20 years from now. Also this whole country was supposedly started to give freedoms, especially of religion. If you are not hurting anyone I could care less what your religion is, honestly. Too me religion is just another tool used to manipulate people, it's a shame too cause you should be able to practice your beliefs if they are your beliefs. I believe MJ isn't just some trivial drug it's an amazing plant it really is IMO and it's very well rounded and would benefit many especially our poor farmers, these men and women work so hard for nothing, they desrve some say, they feed us and get paid squat. It's a very painful thing for me to watch, I come from a family of Marines and I take pride in that and I take pride in the fact that I am an American but what is America really? What we were taught or what we see everyday, or rather experience? Greatest country in the world and we are run by business just like everyone else.


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## Bleek187 (Jun 8, 2008)

"religion is just another tool used to manipulate people"

This i could talk about for months straght lol... i couldnt agree with you more on this subject.. as far as religion i have done my homework on this for the past 8 years or so and i just cant beleave anyone falls for it.. the history of religion pretty much proves that it is just used to control the masses.. it is for control and power and it works better than anything ever has.. Dont get me wrong, im not saying there is no god.. only that religion is made up.. Its a scam that has been copied and changed to fit the likings of the ones in control.. Unbleaveable to me that people actualy live there lives by a set of rules given to them from there religion.. And the reason most do it is fear of going to hell.. Control the people by keeping them in fear.. Perfect scam.. Also there are religions that predate jewdeisum.. how?

I know this is compleetly off topic but thats what im good for =)
and only opinion so plz dont bash me about this.. thanks


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## LowRider (Jun 8, 2008)

this is my last post in here. But companies will adapt plan and simple. it will not put people out of work. the clothing industry will not loose out. cause the farmers will dictate what crop they use whether its hemp or cotton. they will keep the same pickers/workers. Pharmaceutical companies will just develop more drugs or cosmetics from it. police will never be hurt. People will always want police around. in alot of places we don't have enough. it would actually free them up on more serious crimes. lets face it, more than one head is better than 1 head. gas companies won't be hurt, there probably already aware of the plant, they don't just study things in the US. i can keep giving examples why these companies and many others won't loose out on anything. companies keep billions of dollars in reserves for research and other situations. if a company can't adapt they loose. that's why technology moves so quick (it doesn't double about every two years for no reason). is there big business that really want this plant extinct? Maybe but in today's world they have to adapt. A good example of why a business fails is K-mart (don't laugh listen). You ask well there still around and got bought out by Sears and went bankrupt. You know the main reason they didn't adapt to the market around them. other stores like Target, Walmart just to name some adapted by getting new products in. K-mart never did that. They kept the same product lines forever. they didn't try to get other product lines in there stores. Adaptions in today's market is not a problem with today's business in 95% of the cases. if companies don't create new products they don't make money. they will adapt. So please stop with that nonsense. Learn some economics.


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## Dadgumit (Jun 8, 2008)

Hallelujah, Praises and AMEN to you Brother snuggles and Brother Bleek! (lol)

I absolutely relish a good, intelligent conversation (and every once in a while they even let me listen in on one!)   And Bleek - "kudos" to you for a great "off topic-topic"! 

It would seem that the old religions of the Pre-Judaic era would be founded in the Shamanic and (later) Pagan/Druidic ceremonial rites of the various nomadic tribes that wandered the earth some 5000 - 8000 years ago.  I'm in agreement with the theory that hypothesizes that these early peoples developed certain psycho-social constructs that allowed them to feel less vulnerable in the umpredictable environments of their time.  These ceremonies were actually petitions for assistance from whatever caused things to happen in his environment that he (early man) could not (i.e. storms, childbirth, good hunting, etc).  As we began to form communities clusters of people would believe in and perform the same ceremonies.  The problems came when they began to establish "jobs" where people were assigned to assist within the community in the manner in which they could best; which meant that certain people were chosen to perform these ceremonies based on the perception that they were successful in appeasing "the powers that be" and creating the desired outcome.  These primitive religious figureheads were revered and coveted, and would rise in power right along side the tribal leaders that relied on their guidance and protective services as they clashed with other tribes over hunting and camping grounds.   The community showed appreciation to the tribal leaders and religious figureheads who "took care of them" by showering them lavishly with the best of what was available and before you knew it religion and government were cozy bedfellows.  One establishment could use the other to manipulate the common people and pursue their particular agendas at any cost and nothing has changed about that to this day.


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## Rehab is for Quitters (Jun 9, 2008)

And don't forget all the people who've been murdered in the name of God. Look at all the religious wars throughout history. Millions of people have been slaughtered because they have different religious beliefs than others. If there is a God, I doubt she'd be happy about that. Oh the hypocrisy....

ETA: this is not intended as a criticism to all people who practice organized religion as many do indeed "practice what they preach".


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## snuggles (Jun 9, 2008)

People who go to church have every right, I have no problem with that I actually come from a family of church goers but I was given a choice it was not forced. My problem with it is people use it to hurt others and that has to stop it's not fair.

And yes god would be ashamed of us and how we act in my mind...also I believe whatever created life also gave us natural gifts (likeMJ) and MAN has no right to play god and say you can't use this...it's sickening.

And I wanted to reply about the differences between hemp and cotton. Hemp lasts longer, hence less repeat business. And have you ever heard of the cotton gin? It will kill all the big businesses and if they switch they will suffer for a bit, all the businesses have to make a major change and that always hurts but someone big and smart would be a genius to start the wheel rolling, they would be like the oil companies and have some serious power but it's a risk. Hemps durability is actually it's downfall too in a way, one of those catch 22s.


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## Runbyhemp (Jun 9, 2008)

I do not think that religious beliefs should merit any preferential treatment.

If MJ is to be allowed, it is to be allowed for all.


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2008)

im not a big fan of religon as i think its way for legal corruption, and a way to brain wash week people that are alreayd mentally week and need something to believe in... i put all my faith into being a pro marijuana, cuzz sheeett ide woulda killed my self from all other drugs out thier if mary jane wasnt here for me through the good and bad shes the only one understands me, gotta love it...  i would be fine just havin it decriminalized all over america

i agree with runby i mean look at the rastas in jamaica they smoke and grow like crazy and its still illegal over their, so why should america legalize it to certian religous groups this would cause the same problem facing medical marijuana to manny saying theyre a religon just to smoke... over in cali its why everyone startin to get pissed about medical cuzz their saying people are taking advantage of it...

 "LEGALIZE IT " @ rip peter tosh


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## snuggles (Jun 10, 2008)

How do you abuse a plant? MM being abused is something that upets me, ask yourself this. Do the pharma companies not do the same thing? Americans are the most overprescribed peoples in the world, the numbers are astounding....so...whos abusing what? Which is infinitely safer and which one is a billion dollar industry that actually tells us how to live and what to take. I mean look at the side effects of the most trivial perscription drugs, then look at all the stuff that MJ can take care of. I used it myself to ween myself off of booze (alcoholic) and it worked and continues to work, they make drugs for this. Is my problem nothing in the grand scheme of things, I don't know, it took me a long time to come to terms with it. It's a diesease so I finally did realize part of me is broken and it's not my fault but that I also have the power and will to take care of it. I chose MJ cause I like it and have you seen the side effects of these new addiction wonder drugs...no thank you take your poison and shove down someone else's throat. MJ is the most theraputic substance in the world and we don't even know the beginning of it. Plus everytime you buy perscriptions you donate to the war on drugs, I'm not saying to not take care of yourself but look at what a doctor will prescribe on your own and you will find that most perscriptions lead to other problems which lead to other perscriptions which leads to billions of dollars and a war on drugs. Be informed and hold your ground, it's your body not theirs.


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2008)

yeah i dont agree with them obvisouly although alota medical patients over their are getin busted for overgrow the hole house which is suppost to be like 1 room.. if they did ever come to any kinda legalization for religon they simply say the same thing as the guys growin to much medical.... and they know if they strait out legalized it tons of people would probbly switch over to it an they couldent make their profit cuzz every1 would grow it instead of go to the pharmacy... thats true their profit madd by overprescribing pain pills and get tons of teens to seniors addicted to it...


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## snuggles (Jun 10, 2008)

[email protected] said:
			
		

> yeah i dont agree with them obvisouly although alota medical patients over their are getin busted for overgrow the hole house which is suppost to be like 1 room.. if they did ever come to any kinda legalization for religon they simply say the same thing as the guys growin to much medical.... and they know if they strait out legalized it tons of people would probbly switch over to it an they couldent make their profit cuzz every1 would grow it instead of go to the pharmacy... thats true their profit madd by overprescribing pain pills and get tons of teens to seniors addicted to it...


 
Sorry toke I misunderstood you, yes overgrowing your house I agree with...my bad.


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## [email protected] (Jun 10, 2008)

its all good mann.. sometimes it hard to get people on the computer to see what your sayin with words you know people interprit things different..


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