# My WW Breeding Program



## White WidowMaker (Apr 4, 2009)

...from another post that was a reply-while-high.  Here is the WW Breeding Program that is IN-PROGRESS:

I would like to (Seeds in development as of 05 / April / 2009 - pods are splitting, seeds are dark with visible tigerstripes and dots):

1.) take the striped-&-dotted seeds from my monster mother-female (1st-generation) x monster father-male (1st-generation), 

2.) and then grow those seeds while I keep this clone/mother/sister/self in vegetative at least 1-2 months.  Then I would like to take a few clones of this Queen-Mother (Clone) Phenotype Plant (for lack of a better term that I am not yet aware of:  F1?  F2?) (I am already counting those 5-6 little growths/future-branches down there),

3.) and then I would like to grow those seeds and find a good new specimen Alpha Male King Father and breed him with all of the female clones of the 1st-generation Queen-Mother "Alpha-Female" Clone-Self (i.e. the first generation clone; the clones taken from her would be the 2nd generation from the original mother-&-father who produced the seeds and the clone(s) of mother herself, but either died after harvest or hopefully this original mother (i.e. NOT the clone) maybe can be regenerated somehow - I am always surprised how regenerating plants grow and show new growth in all sorts of unexpected places!  It is incredible how much marijuana, and especially the WW, wants to survive and is such a tough, hardy, strong strain of this plant!

Then with all the clones (who all have exact same genetics) produce seeds with this Alpha Male which is 2nd generation crossing with 1st generation Alpha Female and see what kind of consistent characteristics can be produced, observed, and refined.

This Breeding Journal may be months between posts.  I would like to request that unless it is relating to questions or relating your own experiences of your breeding programs (for comparison and learning), that you refrain from posting to this thread with nonsense and/or flames, bashings, or hijacks - but "thanks" and words of encouragement or appreciation for the pictures and effort involved to help contribute to YOUR knowledge and success in your own growing are very much appreciated.

Thank you very much in advance for your understanding and help and consideration.


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## ozzydiodude (Apr 6, 2009)

Keep use informed, Are you going to post pictures? How are you going to decide what male will be your "alpha"? Are clones from a clone still concider first generation?


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 6, 2009)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> Keep use informed, Are you going to post pictures? How are you going to decide what male will be your "alpha"? Are clones from a clone still concider first generation?


 
Yes, abso-shmoot-ly, I intend to post pictures.  That is the whole point of the this breeding journal.

re:  alpha male - well, I used an alpha-male from seed with my alpha-female to produce the seeds.  The alpha-female also was cloned (only one survived).  From the seeds with the good male genetics I intend to create an alpha-male to procreate with my clones of this alpha-female (now cloned) - thus creating "back-cross"(?).  It will sound kind of gross, but I want to cross this "son" with the "mother" (according to advice from DJ SHORT that I read here) creating a "back-cross" in which genetic traits are refined in the inbreeding process.

re:  your question about first generation - I don't know, I am new to breeding terminology, but I will try to be as clear as possible so that there is no misunderstanding.

Stay tuned!


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 7, 2009)

Three mature-striped-spotted seeds were sticking out of their pods this evening, so I posted here asking for help, but no one yet answered.  I was able to gently remove those seeds from their pods without effort, so they must have been a day or so from dropping.

3 down, approx. 50 to go!


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## maineharvest (Apr 7, 2009)

Wow Widow, you have me completely confused.  I dont even know what to say cause im so confused.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 8, 2009)

maineharvest said:
			
		

> Wow Widow, you have me completely confused. I dont even know what to say cause im so confused.


 
What are you confused about?


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 8, 2009)

Today I was examining my flowering girl and found 4 more ready seed-pods that looked a little dry.  I opened them up a bit and looked inside and saw the seeds were no longer attached (receiving fluids as it is produced), so I popped those seeds out.

So as of today I have 7 healthy, dark, mature, striped-and-dotted seeds.  There are approx. 45 seed pods left on the plant (that are visible to me).


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 8, 2009)

I found another 8th good one (dark, striped-&-dotted, barely-and/or-not-attached-to-plant-on-inside-of-seedpod/hull), and a 9th light gray no stripes or dots.  I see another 10th good, dark, striped one inside a cracking seedpod, but it is still attached when I try to gently shake it loose - so I will wait longer on this one plus approx. 40-45 large, closed seed pods, not yet split open.

I was beginning to feel disappointed over last couple of weeks because I didn't see much growth or expansion, but tonight I see another (perhaps) spurt of growth starting with new green growth (new tiny flowers) forming all over at each node all over the plant, but especially at top so much new tiny green growth and tiny leaves/flowers starting, and I hope they fill out and fill up each stem into a full, FAT bud.  It is 5th week WW flower period (after 3 weeks where sex was not visible no signs whatsoever approx. 21 days) - does anybody know if I will now get a spurt of growth through the 8th week with filling out and fattening up?

Also, my female clone is looking goooooood with at least 3 good candidates (branches forming from lower nodes) for cuttings for a 2nd generation clone (i.e. clone from a clone of the Queen-Mother grown from seed).  Also as she gets older I see another 5 tiny, miniscule branches forming at the very bottom of her stem - I hope to make these also into the same (2nd-generation) other identical clones of the Queen-Mother.  Perhaps I will make a few of her clones into Sinsemilla in parallel with the seed production to refine this next (F1, F2??) generation.  Maybe by September or October I can get through these steps.  I must first get to this NEXT harvest of seeds before I can decide what to do next with them.  Maybe I will keep this female clone(s) going also then and keep (back)crossing her traits (and initial Alpha-Male-King-Father donator of the original pollen who was a very, very, VERY special Alpha-Male!!) back into her.

I am so excited about this breeding program.  Such pure WW refined over generations is a project I am enjoying so much each day of live "bud porn" right before my eyes that grows so much each and every day!  I took a sample of her tonight (oh!  I have another small bud drying now!  gotta go get higher now...)

Happy Passover (Hag Sameach!) to the Jews here lurking and/or posting!


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 8, 2009)

I am going to do an experiment, like I have done with Chili seeds (successfully) in the past:  let the light gray ("expendable") non-striped seed dry for one week, and then try to plant it and test to see if it sprouts both the less mature seed-type, and the one week wait only for trying to plant/germinate.  If it works, or if it doesn't work, I will try also a 7 day experiment on one of the striped seeds to test the one-week wait on more mature striped seeds.  If 7 days doesn't work even for these mature seeds, then I will try a 14 day period for another seed, and so on.

The goal is to test this 30-day theory and perhaps refine it to a lower wait-time for cannabis seed production and germination.

Here counts down one week to shuttle-launch...7


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 11, 2009)

Yes, this evening I wanted to look at the recent seeds produced, and I didn't take the seeds out carefully from the container - I just turned the container over and one of the seeds was crushed, one was split on one side, and another was scraped with the black dots being scraped off.

The one that was crushed was killed so I ate it.  The one that was split volunteered herself to an emergency planting to see if a split seed can survive an emergency planting so quickly after being harvested from the plant, and the one that was scraped also volunteered herself "just-in-case" to see if a damaged / scraped (perhaps stressed) seed would prefer to take her chances outside of the shell as a new plant than stress-out and dry up with the others.

"Misty" the female clone is looking good, about 6 inches high (stem) + leaves' height, three of her lower branches (but not the 5 tiny lowest ones) are volunteering themselves as perfect candidates for the second (more experienced) round of cloning trials.  Their stems are about 1 inch + another inch for the large leaves leading those branches.  She is growing in "spirals" her branches up above are "staircased" on three sides going around the plant 1-2-3, 1-2-3.

I am dying to make those three cuttings, but I want to maximize their chances of survival so I will wait for the recommended 4-5 inches before I cut them - I am observing for the best point that they are in this 4-5 inch range AS WELL AS being "green-and-tender" and not hard-woody.   I will experiment the scraping method that NewBud says he uses on one of the branch-cuttings to see if good success is with this method.  I know a lady who says she might have glaucoma - I am unsure about suggesting to her marijuana as a possible therapy / treatment and if she would flip out or be cool and accepting.  If cool with it, then I would like to give her one of these female WW clones to help her.

So now I have one flowering female producing seeds nearly every day + buds and new growth/buds all along the nodes.  I hope these thicken out in the next 2-3 final weeks of (intended) 8 week flowering period. 

I have one female clone named "Misty" of this aforementioned Alpha-Female (grown from seed).

I have two seeds planted in the ground as emergency measure to preserve life due to accidental damage of the seeds.  One seed was crushed and eaten.


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## Vegs (Apr 11, 2009)

> The one that was split volunteered herself to an emergency planting to see if a split seed can survive an emergency planting so quickly after being harvested from the plant,



I've tried to plant seeds freshly plucked out of some Blue Mystic to no avail. I did soak them and they split so I thought I was good to go. Maybe there were other variables that my have past me (low temps, rockwool was to compact, etc) but for the most part I was unable to get fresh seed to germ. I had to wait a few weeks where a batch that was 2 weeks dry split and germd with minimal issues.

What's the deal?


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## maineharvest (Apr 12, 2009)

From what Ive heard you should let them dry for about thirty days before trying to germ them.  Let us know what happens.


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## Hick (Apr 12, 2009)

.a drying period will definitely improve your over all germination rate. I can't give you the exact reason, or a scientific explanation, but it is certainly true.
 Maybe mother nature implemented the tactic to inhibit germination in the fall, after the seeds have dropped. After all, if the seeds tried to grow in the fall, further procreation would be lost.
Some species of trees require fire, before the seeds will germinate. There are seeds that require an acid treatment that supposedly mimics passing through the digestive system of a bird, before they will germinate.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 12, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> .a drying period will definitely improve your over all germination rate. I can't give you the exact reason, or a scientific explanation, but it is certainly true.
> Maybe mother nature implemented the tactic to inhibit germination in the fall, after the seeds have dropped. After all, if the seeds tried to grow in the fall, further procreation would be lost.
> Some species of trees require fire, before the seeds will germinate. There are seeds that require an acid treatment that supposedly mimics passing through the digestive system of a bird, before they will germinate.


 
Yes, drying period absolutely increases the chances and rates of germination for (all?) seeds.  But what exactly is the minimum wait-time?  I see people say 30 here, but in my experience, and in experience of neighbor who is old old-timer, a week will do for most nearly every seed time of recently eaten fruit (bud) that produces seeds.

It seems to me that the wait will increase the dry-out of the seed from its fresh life with mother-plant.  It dries and contracts inside trying to preserve life within giving all moisure to inner-life and allowing to dry in protective moisture-keeping outer part + shell.  The drying-out a bit helps the inner life of the seed to reach out in search of the moisture it feels around it when it is watered later on.  This is my theory/explanation from observations anyway - including cutting open seeds to study the inner parts and potential.

Chili seeds 7 days was enough.  7 days works for lots of different seed varieties.  30 days sounds near definitely good, but must one wait this long?  Or is 7 or 14 or 21 days possible for optimum minimum germination time?

These 2 that were planted were emergency measure that will also test the possibility of germinating within a few days (since I don't know if these two were among the first picked since I have been putting them all in one nurturing container of 3 dessicants pouches, 7 rice granules and white container.  I need to get black film canister one of these days I hope.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 12, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> .a drying period will definitely improve your over all germination rate. I can't give you the exact reason, or a scientific explanation, but it is certainly true.
> Maybe mother nature implemented the tactic to inhibit germination in the fall, after the seeds have dropped. After all, if the seeds tried to grow in the fall, further procreation would be lost.
> Some species of trees require fire, before the seeds will germinate. There are seeds that require an acid treatment that supposedly mimics passing through the digestive system of a bird, before they will germinate.


 
Yes, drying period absolutely increases the chances and rates of germination for (all?) seeds.  But what exactly is the minimum wait-time?  I see people say 30 here, but in my experience, and in experience of neighbor who is old old-timer, a week will do for most nearly every seed type of recently eaten fruit (bud) that produces seeds.

It seems to me that the wait will increase the dry-out of the seed from its fresh life with mother-plant.  It dries and contracts inside trying to preserve life within giving all moisure to inner-life and allowing to dry in protective moisture-keeping outer part + shell.  The drying-out a bit helps the inner life of the seed to reach out in search of the moisture it feels around it when it is watered later on.  This is my theory/explanation from observations anyway - including cutting open seeds to study the inner parts and potential.

Chili seeds 7 days was enough.  7 days works for lots of different seed varieties.  30 days sounds near definitely good, but must one wait this long?  Or is 7 or 14 or 21 days possible for optimum minimum germination time?

These 2 that were planted were emergency measure that will also test the possibility of germinating within a few days (since I don't know if these two were among the first picked since I have been putting them all in one nurturing container of 3 dessicants pouches, 7 rice granules and white container.  I need to get black film canister one of these days I hope.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 24, 2009)

well, the planted 2 seeds did not sprout - maybe combination of factors because broken and/or because planted too soon after harvest.  I even had an incident where another plant I have (small tree) fell on top of "Misty" and, thank God, only clipped (the tip of finger of) one leaf as she was knocked over and and slightly smothered by the roots and dirt of the other tree that fell.  Wow, not a miracle per-se, but good fortune that she was not damaged or killed.  She recovered from the minute or so of smothering / crushing after I put her back and repacked the soil, straightened her out, and gave her a good soaking / flooding of water to help her recover.  Then under the MH and Flouros for the afternoon and night to recover.  Marijuana plants are so hardy/tough, they fight to survive in even the roughest of conditions.

Didn't Rockster successfully germinate (so he reports) seeds straight from the seed sacs, i.e. no 30-day dry time?  If so, what strain?  Maybe strains also are factors in how long their particular seeds need to dry before being fertile.  Ok, so the 19th of April was the day the last seeds were harvested.  So after the 19th of May should be the time when most of those posters here recommend the minimum time necessary to allow seeds to dry out a bit for best germination chances.

Because of counsel received from BombBudPuffa and OzzyDioDude and some others, I think the breeding program is re-scheduled now for later this Spring / Summer / or Fall with the F2 (i.e. the seeds produced from first WW Pollenation / Fertilization success and harvest).  The Alpha-Female was good because she was a very large, strong, and tall plant relative to the others in her 10-seed pack, but it is the Alpha-Male who was the very special one in this last group of WW seeds.  He was also large, strong, and tall like the Alpha-Female, but he had extra special qualities that were unique and "one-in-a-million" (i.e. the expression implying very, very, very special, not literally...who knows exactly how many WW plants have these nice characteristics observed?  ...maybe it is one in a million, who can know such statistics?).  I would like to produce females and males from his seeds with her (i.e. the original F1 seeds from the breeder DP), and only with those special females and males offspring from the F1 can the breeding program continue in the necessary direction to produce next generation special genetics and crossing and/or back-crossing program (yet to be decided).  I think I will try to pollenate the whole female plant this next time with seeds (not just one bud) and hope to harvest hundreds or thousands of seeds to increase the size of the genetics pool to breed from.  If I succeed I would like to send back to DP the new pure WW variation / sub-strain with special genetics.


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## Rockster (Apr 24, 2009)

Yes,report that I did and that's with most strains I've produced seed from.

My Cheese x Sk#1 growing in my present journal were literally taken off the plant and straight into compost and I got around 70% germination rate(21 out of 26)which tells me with proper conditioning and storage the figure will be in the 90%+ range hopefully.

I've just read you saying about sending Dutch Passion your new improved White Widow but to be honest it would be a nice well meaning gesture but I don't think they'd take you up on your offer,not unless.....

you document every single step with photographs and an in depth journal and then you take your seeds and if stable(if you've done your homework and bred diligently they will be)jump on a plane to Amsterdam with your samples and go see them at DP,have a smoke and if they are impressed and want this strain as a new line or to replace the old WW agree on a license fee for you,could be pennies or could be a serious slice,as look at Big Buddha,he got an agreement with Arjan (and HGF?)for the Cheese and wasnt because it was good but because it was the first seed with Cheese in the name and I've grown it twice and did'nt find a true Cheese chemotype/resin profile.

So it can be done but do you really think you can improve on what they offer at the moment?

It would have to be head and shoulders over what they are doing and you are tinkering with the WW genepool or crossing a coupla hybrids,not introducing anything else,like for example crossing with new exotic sativa landrace genes (yup,ya gotta go globetrotting and all being well will be in Nepal and Northern India this Autumn)and incorporate the positive aspects of it without hopefully adding weeks to the final harvest time or significantly reduce yield( an important commercial consideration)so it's not really that straight forward or many more would be breeding and not just being f2 hack pirates in the seed world.

A breeder must have a goal in mind,and work to it without compromise and atb honest it's not easy for the small guy by virtue of the fact we work with tiny plant populations as you need large numbers to find exceptional individuals but hey,it IS great fun but dont expect Dutch Passion to beat a path to your door,besides,WW has been flogged to death as a strain,they want the next 'new thing' as we are in a Diesel and Kush phase it seems.

I'm not a breeder myself(grower 35 years plus) but am working on this project of mine very seriously as it's a bit of an actual challenge being that the Cheese chemotype in the Exodus clone is heterozygous(it's an F1 hybrid),the genes expressing that trait have more than one loci,meaning you simply can't backcross 5 times,that would apply to 2 truebreeding landraces or stabilised Ibl's,then mapping out possible inheritance of traits with the Mendelian punnet box DOES apply.

I'd get a copy of Marijuana Botany by Robert Connell Clarke.I wore out my first copy,the police took my second and a tardy friend is being lazy with returning my third,it's a good book,a sound basic primer I heartily endorse.

I'm reading Advances In Hemp Research atm,a great book but it's not for those new to doing crosses and it costs silly money,like £60!

All the best with your crossing experiments.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 24, 2009)

Rockster said:
			
		

> Yes,report that I did and that's with most strains I've produced seed from.
> 
> My Cheese x Sk#1 growing in my present journal were literally taken off the plant and straight into compost and I got around 70% germination rate(21 out of 26)which tells me with proper conditioning and storage the figure will be in the 90%+ range hopefully.


 
Hi Rockster, thanks for your reply!

Yes, I read (and enjoyed) your journals.  I will check back for updates periodically - good journals and great photos!

Wow, straight off the plant, ay?  Interesting.  Do you mean you plucked them from the pods from the growing plant, or you harvested bud and the seeds that you found you planted?  Since I noticed seeds inside the pod disconnect while still remaining in the pods (eventually, when they are ready), then maybe the ones you succeeded in germinating had "dried" on the plant, in the pods for some time before you actually planted.


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## Rockster (Apr 24, 2009)

Hi again WWM,

   the plant was chopped and seeds removed straight away.You kinda run your fingers gently through the bud and the larger more mature seeds come away quite easily and it's those I planted,as per the pic taken at the time.


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 24, 2009)

Good luck with your project WWM.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 24, 2009)

BBP - thanks!

Rockster - thanks for your extended/edited reply, and thanks for the pictures of the seeds!  Those are beautiful seeds!  Yes, I know what you mean that the more mature seeds are just popping out!

If DP is interested I will simply go to local Dutch Embassy and send them special delivery through their diplomatic post so that I won't get arrested for sending seeds back to Amsterdam.  If DP is interested, ok.  If not, then they lose out because if I can isolate those special genetics in the WW, then the new sub-strain of pure WW will have extra yield (maybe same potency).

If they are not interested, that's ok.  At least I had fun, and I accomplished something in breeding my own private WW for me and friends.  That's ok, too.


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 24, 2009)

Btw, WWM, it will probably take a lot more than a backcross to isolate high yield and high potency.


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## BuddyLuv (Apr 24, 2009)

:spit:


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 24, 2009)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> Btw, WWM, it will probably take a lot more than a backcross to isolate high yield and high potency.


 
Thanks.

I don't know yet about the potency (probably same potency as the other seeds in the group), but the male had unusual (extra) branching, and if his offspring have the same unusual branching characteristics (approx. 60 seeds harvested), then I would like to isolate this in future generations to create a sub-strain that has the extra branching (= higher yield).


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## ShecallshimThor (Apr 24, 2009)

than i would say keep your dad alive as long as possible. cloning or anymeans possible
then backcross any mother that show the characteristics
from what ive read on breeding this sounds like what your looking for


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 25, 2009)

ShecallshimThor said:
			
		

> than i would say keep your dad alive as long as possible. cloning or anymeans possible
> then backcross any mother that show the characteristics
> from what ive read on breeding this sounds like what your looking for


 
Unfortunately the dad was used for breeding and then killed.  I hope his children in the seeds I have will show some of his characteristics (both male and female), and then I hope to cross these with better chances that their offspring will show the wanted characteristics since they both have them in their genes.


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## ozzydiodude (Apr 25, 2009)

WWM the are a couple thread on collecting and storing male pollen that save you from having the grow males and would help you in your backcrossing and breeding. When I get a extra min I'll look up and post later.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 27, 2009)

Rockster said:
			
		

> Hi again WWM,
> 
> the plant was chopped and seeds removed straight away.You kinda run your fingers gently through the bud and the larger more mature seeds come away quite easily and it's those I planted,as per the pic taken at the time.


 
I noticed it takes about 6 weeks to form nice, dark, black-striped seeds. So if you chopped at 8 weeks, the seeds (at least some of them) in the bud may have had a dry-time of approx. 2 weeks. So this may have been a factor in the success of your plant immediately after harvest.


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