# veggging and flour lights



## blondlebanese (Sep 8, 2014)

what is the best flourecent light for clones and vegging stage.  t12 cool white, daylight delux, plant and aquarium?  and will two 4' lights be enough for eight clones?  is there such a thing as too much light?


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## Rosebud (Sep 8, 2014)

T5's for vegging. Brand new clones don't take a lot of light, i put mine off to the side of the T5 so they don' t get much light while rooting.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 9, 2014)

Yes, there is a thing as too much light, especially for clones.  Clones do not need much light at all.  However, vegging plants need a lot more.  You are not going to be overlit using T12s for vegging as they simply do not put out enough light for the space they take up for you to be overlit.


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## Sherrwood (Sep 9, 2014)

I have 12   4 foot T-5 lights in my veg tent, when I clone I simply put the clones on the floor of the tent under some canopy of other plants in just a bit of shade, too much light on a clone isn't good.
Also clones need fresh air flow as they have no root systems yet to support stress.


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## blondlebanese (Sep 9, 2014)

besides T12 4' cool white 40 watt lights I also have T5 32 watt 4' lights.  so, I should use the T5's.  is a two bulb  light sufficient light?  should I not place the clones directly under the light?  I need to add these clones are being purchased from a clone bank more than likely the roots will be established.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 9, 2014)

For clones that are already rooted and beginning to show new top growth, they are ready for full light. They only need the reduced light during the rooting process. The 2 bulb T5 ffixture is ok for just starting out with the clones but you need to get the proper lighting ffor them to have 3000-4000 lumens per sqft of growing space. If you have a place that is exclusively for the clones to get going, it should be enclosed enough to trap as much light within as possible while still allowing plenty of ventilation. The 2 bulb T5 is 32watts, that is not as much power as you need ffor the clones beyond 7-10 days. After that, they will have grown to a point where they need much more light energy. The High output T5 is what you need for vegging. It is a 54watt 4' bulb and will put out almost twice as much light energy. You will need a 4-6bulb fixture for a 2'x4' veg space, or a 8-12 bulb light for a 4'x4' grow space to get the proper veg growth that you want.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 10, 2014)

I have never seen or heard of 32W T5s--are you sure that they are 4' T5s AND 32W? 

Do you have a veg place set up yet?  How large is it?  That is what should dictate the size of your lights.  If your space is not 4' long, you may want to check out the PL-55 fixtures.  These are double tubes--basically an elongated U shape.  They are 54W and put out 5,000 lumens.  A 2 bulb fixture takes up a space of 12" x 24" x 3-3/4" and put 10,000 lumens.  The 4 tube fixture puts out 20,000 lumens and is 2' x 2' x 3-3/4, so is geat for the smaller space or tent.

Hush, aren't the 2' T5s 24W?


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 10, 2014)

I'm not sure but I believe they are. I have seen the 32w 4'T5 in stores. They are standard bulbs(as opposed to HO bulbs) and often are in the 5000K spectrum (they call it "daylight" spectrum), which is almost worthless for growing MJ.


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## blondlebanese (Sep 12, 2014)

I was wrong about the t5 32w  its a t8 32w.


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## bud88 (Sep 12, 2014)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Hush, aren't the 2' T5s 24W?





My new Sunblaze 2' 2 bulb T5 is  24w 6500k


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## trillions of atoms (Sep 12, 2014)

Mm mm flour lights....


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## Spookyashell (Sep 14, 2014)

Sorry to keep nagging about this, you fine people have answered everything else I've asked about, except one of my questions.

For vegging would you prefer
23.000 lumens of 6400K (125W + 250W 6400K bulbs)
or
20.000 lumen of 2700K + 15.000 lm of 6400K (250W 2700k + 250W 6400K bulbs)

Option 1 has more of the daylight spectrum while option 2 has more total lumens, but less daylight spectrum.

What would you do from my options?


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 14, 2014)

For vegging you want light in the blue spectrum and that is the 6400K range.  The 2700K lights are more in the red spectrum and better for flowering.  Twenty-three hundred lumens isn't much for the 375 watts you are using.  If you are having to buy lights, go with T5s--they will save you money on your electricity bill each and every month as (lumen for lumen) they cost about 35% less to run--i.e. your will consume 35% less power and provide the same amount of light with T5s over CFLs.  Twenty-three hundred lumens will only light a space about 4' x 2'.


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## Spookyashell (Sep 14, 2014)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> For vegging you want light in the blue spectrum and that is the 6400K range. The 2700K lights are more in the red spectrum and better for flowering. Twenty-three hundred lumens isn't much for the 375 watts you are using. If you are having to buy lights, go with T5s--they will save you money on your electricity bill each and every month as (lumen for lumen) they cost about 35% less to run--i.e. your will consume 35% less power and provide the same amount of light with T5s over CFLs. Twenty-three hundred lumens will only light a space about 4' x 2'.



Its 23 thousand, not hundred. And I will upgrade the lights later on. But ppl say the plants can make use of 2700k too, its just not that good.
Also my so called 375w only pull about 200W, but give 23k lumen.

Anyway until I get new lights should I go 23.000 lm pure 6400K or will they grow better from 20.000 2700K + 15.000 6400K

Thats 35.000 lm vs 23.000 lm although 20.000 of the 35.000 is in the wrong spectrum.

Also from T5 I only get 8.000 lm out of 108W , I get 8.000 from the so called 125W thats only pulling about 70W. So I would use more power for the same amount of light with T5, the ones I checked.
The CFL's I have are very effective with 111 lumens per watt. The T5's I checked only give 74 lumen per watt


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 14, 2014)

LOL--I meant 23,000--2300 would not even do a foot of space.  How do you know they are putting out 23,000 lumens if they are only pulling 200W?  These lights are not capable of putting out over 100 lumens per watt, so if the wattage is not there, I am pretty sure that the lumens have gone down in proportion (or more).

The 6400 lights are better for vegging.  You can use 2700K lights, but the plants will have more stretch and less budding sites than a plant vegged with 6400K.


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## Spookyashell (Sep 15, 2014)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> LOL--I meant 23,000--2300 would not even do a foot of space. How do you know they are putting out 23,000 lumens if they are only pulling 200W? These lights are not capable of putting out over 100 lumens per watt, so if the wattage is not there, I am pretty sure that the lumens have gone down in proportion (or more).
> 
> The 6400 lights are better for vegging. You can use 2700K lights, but the plants will have more stretch and less budding sites than a plant vegged with 6400K.



I know. I'm mostly wondering, will 20.000 lm of 2700K do more for me than 8.000 lm of 6400K in addition to the 15.000 lm of 6400K I will be using no matter what.
I figure since its 2.5x the amount of lumens will that make up for it being the wrong spectrum? specially considering they will still get the 15.000 lm in the correct spectrum.

Coz they are rated 15.000 and 8.000 lm and I used a power meter to see that the one called 250W high power CFLwas pulling 134-138watts while I messured, so I figured the so called 125W would pull about 70W. They are power saving bulbs. And I trust the shop I use. It has a very good reputation, they only sell the best bulbs available. The 250W cost 83 bucks and the 125W cost 50 bucks.

[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Feliz-Watt-Grow-Light-2700K/dp/B003EWDP5S[/ame]

Designed For Horticulture
Proven Success In High Humidity
*Produces more usable light than HIDs (MH or HPS)*
10,000 Hour Bulb Life

*This is an actual 250 watt Horticultural Grade CFL. Rated for 10,000 hours and puts out about 15,000 Lumens.* These bulbs have an internal ballast, have proven success in high humidity, And include a 6 Month Manufacture Warranty. This CFL grow light will only work with a mogul base socket. This CFL does not work, or fit, in standard household sockets.

This is where I got it, think its the same bulbs

http://www.designbelysning.no/vekstlys/grolys-hps-cfl-mh/250w-high-power-cfl-e40.html

Translated:
Place the bulbs 3-4 cm (1.5 inches) over the top of the plants
100% PAR in the correct spectrum for growing
Produce less heat than HIDS
Low energy bulb give much lower powerconsumption
High light output, yellow 20.000 lm , blue 15.000 lm
Long lifespan


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 15, 2014)

I know that a lot of these manufacturers claim that their CFLs put out more useable light than HPS.  However in actual practice, they do not produce more bud.  So my only conclusion is that this is just more of the hype we have always seen.  Everyone is trying to compete with HPS, but in fact, when you get down to an actual grow, they don't.

That CFL is still only putting out 60 lumens per watt, which pretty much costs more to run than any other type lighting we use--i.e. the most cost per lumen of any bulbs we use.  If they truly out-produced a HPS, this would be wonderful, but they don't.  However, this is your grow, you should use what you want.


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## Spookyashell (Sep 15, 2014)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> I know that a lot of these manufacturers claim that their CFLs put out more useable light than HPS. However in actual practice, they do not produce more bud. So my only conclusion is that this is just more of the hype we have always seen. Everyone is trying to compete with HPS, but in fact, when you get down to an actual grow, they don't.
> 
> That CFL is still only putting out 60 lumens per watt, which pretty much costs more to run than any other type lighting we use--i.e. the most cost per lumen of any bulbs we use. If they truly out-produced a HPS, this would be wonderful, but they don't. However, this is your grow, you should use what you want.



Not considering its only pulling 135 even though its called 250W, that makes it 111


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 15, 2014)

If it is only pulling 135 watts, it isn't going to be putting out 15000 lumens.


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## blondlebanese (Sep 15, 2014)

all this talk of lums and watts is over my head.  would someone give me the formula for watts to lumms.  please.  so I can keep up.  in jargon that a simple man can understand its eight 54w bulbs = 64000 lums.  is that right?


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 15, 2014)

No.... There are 2 things that are important. The spectrum, which is the color of the light. It is usually expressed here in US as thousands of degrees Kelvin. So a bulb that is putting out 6400K is producing light with a temperature comparison of degrees Kelvin, but that just represents the color white/blue. if the light is putting out 2700-3000K, then it is producing a color that is a red/orange. If the bulb says 5100K that means that it is putting out light that is a white/greenish color (also called "full spectrum" or "daylight"). That is the color, which is important to the phase of growth of the plant.

The next thing is lumens. This is a measure of the amount of light energy that a bulb is producing. Watts is the measure of electrical energy that is being pulled by the light to produce the light energy. Watts will run in parallel with the lumens. But watts is not an important factor because watts follow Lumens. You want to produce enough lumens over a given amount of space for the plants to get what they need to grow healthy and produce to their optimum ability. There are many variable that can be figured into the "optimum ability". That just means get it to grow as well as you can for the given environment. 

For the typical grow conditions that we all work with on indoor grows, you need a minimum of 3000lumens produced over a square foot of growing space for vegging plants. That means if you have a 16square foot tent (4'x4') that you will veg plants in, then you need a light or lights strong enough to produce ate least 16 x 3000= 48,000 lumens. 

If you keep those plants in the same tent and switch to flowering, then you will need a light that produces at least 5000lum per sqft or 16 x 5000=80,000. As I said, watts will follow lumens, so a T5 4' bulb that produces 5000 lumens is typically going to be about 54watts. But a 60watt cfl bulb will not necessarily produce nearly as many lumens as the T5 bulb. A fixture of 8 bulbs T5 4' 54w will produce 40,000 lumens. An HPS that is 600w will typically produce around 90,000-95,000 lumens depending on the manufacturer and condition of the bulb and ballast. A 1000w HPS will produce about 120,000-140,000 lumens. The Metal Halide bulbs of the same wattage will produce about 25-30% less lumens than the HPS.

Now let me confuse you  an HPS that is 600w will produce say 92,000 lumens and in a 4x4 tent will give you 5750 lumens per sqft which is very good for flower (as the spectrum of the HPS is between 2000-3000 Kelvin or red/orange color). But if you take that same light and put it in a 5x5 tent, the light will only give you 3680 lumens per sqft which would only be good for veg (except the HPS is not as good for vegging as T5 or MH because of the spectrum or color). In order to get the better lumen amount (per square foot) is to increase from the 600w to the 1000w HPS.

I hope this makes sense to you  iff you need more just ask


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## blondlebanese (Sep 15, 2014)

still confuseing.  I'm growing in a 48sq ft room. the actual grow box is 6'x3'.  do I need to light up the whole room or just above the plants.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 16, 2014)

If you actually have a 3 x 6 grow box that is contained in a larger room, all you need to light is the box.  My flowering space is about the same size, but I have a separate space that I veg in that is 2 x 4 x 4.  Since you have more room in your room, you may want to think about setting up a small veg space.  I like the separate rooms so that I can start a plant every 2 weeks or so and then harvest a plant every 2 weeks or so.    

Let's see if we can explain lighting a bit better for you.  You pretty much need to look at the packaging of the bulbs you are using to get the correct lumen figure as most bulbs vary in how many lumens they put out.  However, standard 4' 54W T5 high output tubes put out 5000 lumens per bulb, so 8 of them would be 40,000 lumens.  But like Hush mentioned, the color spectrum is important, too.  This is also a figure that you probably need to get from the packaging on the bulb also.  As we all know from looking at rainbows, light comes in different colors.  Growing plants like light in what we call the blue spectrum, the spectrum is noted in numbers with a K at the end.  Blue spectrum is in the 6500K range, so when looking for vegging bulbs, you want to look for something that says it is somewhere around that number.  Virtually all bulbs meant for growing will give you the spectrum of the bulb on the literature or packaging.  Bulbs for flowering are in the red spectrum and are in the 2700K range.

Sizing your lights to your space--Like we mentioned, for vegging we want 3000 lumens per sq ft, so you look at your bulbs, figure out many lumens they are putting out.  Then you measure your space in sq ft and multiply that by 3000 for vegging light and 5000 for flowering.  So for a 3 x 6 space which is 18 sq ft, you would need 54,000 lumens if you are vegging.  If you are flowering, you need 90,000.  Keep in mind that these are minimums and it is really desirable to have more light if possible.  I run a 1000W in a closet that is the same size as yours.


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## Spookyashell (Sep 16, 2014)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> If it is only pulling 135 watts, it isn't going to be putting out 15000 lumens.



Thats what they claim (are rated) Are you sure there hasn't been made progress with CFL. Hushpuppy said he had researched my bulbs and that they were very good.
Just look at Diesel engines, 15 years ago they were crap, now they are supurb.


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## JimB (Sep 17, 2014)

b-leb, Tough to find more pleasure than paralysis of this analysis but you're there with what's necessary to make a good first run, view results, adjust.

Using 6x3 box, 5 ea single T-5 fixtures, 4ft, 6500K, about 7" side to side spacing, centered in box leave 1 ft uncovered ends, a great cause-effect display of light drop off compared to 7" between tubes.

This set-up will teach baseline for everything from cuttings (10x20 Tray,7" dome) lights about 8" above, to flowering plants about 16" tall, topped once or twice during about 3 wks veg training after rooting which should take about 10 days, and veg-flower with lights (4-6)" inches above.

There's a better rooting box, vegetative box, flower box, than your set-up but if you're looking to get out of the box (did I say that) on a first/early learning run, then the next important thing to do is get into motion and learn from doing, there's plenty on hand to go with.

Good luck, JimB.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 17, 2014)

Five single tubes is not nearly enough for a 6 x 3 box, putting out only 25,000 lumens, which is less than 1400 lumens per sq ft.  You need at least double that.  Go with 3000 lumens per sq ft (minimum), make the spacing of the bulbs such that when hung you will achieve 3000 lumens per sq ft.


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## blondlebanese (Sep 18, 2014)

ok ,  if I increase the amount of tubes to 12 tubes that will give me 60000 lums that should be enough light, for a 3x6ft grow space. is that correct?  for vegging.   I now get it about dialing in on the grow as some of you have warned me about.  I'm not going with co2 for now.  I have too many other things to get right like the lighting,nutes,so on.  and the cost is riseing as I learn.


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## Locked (Sep 18, 2014)

3x6=18 sqr feet of grow space.
18x3000(lumens for Vegging)=54,000 lumens of light needed.
18x5000(lumens for Flower)=90,000 lumens of light needed.
So 60,000 lumens would work in the space for Veg but not for Flower.  For Flower you need at least 90,000.  Those are minimums. I have grown with the Min and I have grown with more than the min and it's no contest that more lumens are more better. At a certain point it is overkill but I usually shoot for 7500 lumens per sqr foot in Flower. 

jmo


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 19, 2014)

I also find 7500 lumens per sq ft to be the "sweet spot" for me.  Beyond that without CO2 enhancement, I just don't see that much more growth.


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## JimB (Sep 20, 2014)

5 ea T-5's over 6x3 box will make some fine plants, from Incept thru Harvest.

Front end of learning curve quickly turns to Zebra stripes and early gardeners weren't nearly so calculation dependent, they just put up some lights and learned.

Today there's much more info and better equipment but following economy budget & simple plan for first couple cycles is invaluable.

Up-grading from there will spend right $$$ at right spot.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 20, 2014)

I'm sorry, but there is no way that 5 T5s are enough in 18 sq ft for growing cannabis.  Yes, in the old days we just put up some lights and learned because we did not have the vast information that we do now available at our fingertips.  Things are evolving every day.  It is a waste of time and energy to try and reinvent the wheel.  I am very happy being able to share information and take advantage of others knowledge and experiences without my having to try everything myself.  Part of sharing this vast amount of knowledge is being able to ask those who have gone before you to avoid making those ill thought out purchases that everyone who has grown for a long time has made.


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## blondlebanese (Sep 21, 2014)

JimB said:


> 5 ea T-5's over 6x3 box will make some fine plants, from Incept thru Harvest.
> 
> Front end of learning curve quickly turns to Zebra stripes and early gardeners weren't nearly so calculation dependent, they just put up some lights and learned.
> 
> ...



thanks for the concern jimb but, I have this need to get it as right as possible the first time.  a side affect from the meds I think.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 21, 2014)

It is a mistake of the largest order to try and skimp on your lighting.  Your lights are directly related to how much you yield.  Inadequate lighting will always affect your yield, the density of the buds and the number of bud sites adversely.  Underlit vegging spaces result in tall stretched plants with few budding spots.  Underlit flowering spaces result in less bud and light airy buds.

It is always better to buy the right thing to begin with than buying something "not quite right" just to get by.  Buying the right thing initially will prevent that storeroom of little used things that we "experimented with and failed".  I have been growing for decades and have improved my growing equipment as our knowledge about what works best has expanded.  And it will.  Buy the best you can and you will not be sorry.  You will be repaid by a bountiful harvest.


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## Brohio (Sep 21, 2014)

Brohio u checking out the light posts


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