# Will a 12/12 from seed plant still GROW?



## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

so i vegged for like 2 weeks, then put it in flower.
 will the plants still grow in height and get bigger? or am i going to have 7 ,  2 inch buds?

  I assume it will grow, because when i put my normal plants in flower, it got like 2 times bigger.

 it seems the plant hasnt grown at all since i put into flower, but i assume thats because it is changing its energy toward flowering....will it resume growing soon??


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## ThinkGREEN (Nov 29, 2007)

it depends if its a Sativa or Indica Strain.......


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

well i have no idea, some look indica, some stativa.
  so ur saying one of them might not grow anymore?? i really am going to have a 2 inch cola.....that would $uck.


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## ThinkGREEN (Nov 29, 2007)

Maybe....do you have Pictures?


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

why yes i do,
  go here
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19899

 scroll down till i posted the 2nd set of pictures, its more recent


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## Amon1011 (Nov 29, 2007)

They should flower, theres actually a thread on the top list rite now titled flower from start, he's got pics of his little guys so i'd imagine it woudl work for you to.


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

i know it will flower, but is it going to stay small, and flower.  or grow to a foot or more..and flower


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## stunzeed (Nov 29, 2007)




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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

MOST WILL WHAT???
 stay short, or grow?


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## ThinkGREEN (Nov 29, 2007)

If it would be more Sativa, then it would have the most 5-7 Fingers on a leaf.And it would surely grow much higher then. About 200-300% and more!
Indica and Ruderalis have after the 5-7 Fingered Leafs mostly, also 11-13 Fingered leafs...
At flowering they don´t grow much more....lets say about 50-100% of their size.

wish you luck

ThinkGREEN


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

lets hope for stativa, even though i perfer Indiaca dominate, and alittle stativa.


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## Hick (Nov 29, 2007)

..at onset of flowering, "all" strains will stretch to some degree. Some will triple in  heigth, most all will "at least" double. 
    If you aren't seeing any growth, "my" personal opinion/guess, would be the attempted forced flowering at such an early age. I'm still a believer that plants should be grown to "sexual maturity" before flowering is induced. (usually 4-6 weeks)
  Forced flowering simply goes against the natural  metobolic actions that have been bred into the plants for thousands of years. ..IMO.   "It just ain't natural"..  ..and that does make a difference.
  Keep in mind, that vegetive growth "above" ground, is directly related to the amount of growth underground (roots). IMHO..when flowering begins, the plants put the lions share of its energy into "above" ground growth, (flowering) and root growth comes to a halt, or nearlly ceases.. Without a proper root structure to support 'that', ... growth is bound to suffer.
  I am also of the opinion that forced early flowering effects potency and quality in a negative manner. But these are only "my opinions". Others will beg to differ.


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## ThinkGREEN (Nov 29, 2007)

Hick said:
			
		

> ..at onset of flowering, "all" strains will stretch to some degree. Some will triple in  heigth, most all will "at least" double.
> If you aren't seeing any growth, "my" personal opinion/guess, would be the attempted forced flowering at such an early age. I'm still a believer that plants should be grown to "sexual maturity" before flowering is induced. (usually 4-6 weeks)
> Forced flowering simply goes against the natural  metobolic actions that have been bred into the plants for thousands of years. ..IMO.   "It just ain't natural"..  ..and that does make a difference.
> Keep in mind, that vegetive growth "above" ground, is directly related to the amount of growth underground (roots). IMHO..when flowering begins, the plants put the lions share of its energy into "above" ground growth, (flowering) and root growth comes to a halt, or nearlly ceases.. Without a proper root structure to support 'that', ... growth is bound to suffer.
> I am also of the opinion that forced early flowering effects potency and quality in a negative manner. But these are only "my opinions". Others will beg to differ.



100% :goodposting:


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## Pot Belly (Nov 29, 2007)

Hick said:
			
		

> ..If you aren't seeing any growth, "my" personal opinion/guess, would be the attempted forced flowering at such an early age. I'm still a believer that plants should be grown to "sexual maturity" before flowering is induced. (usually 4-6 weeks)
> Forced flowering simply goes against the natural metobolic actions that have been bred into the plants for thousands of years. ..IMO. "It just ain't natural"..  ..and that does make a difference.
> Keep in mind, that vegetive growth "above" ground, is directly related to the amount of growth underground (roots). IMHO..when flowering begins, the plants put the lions share of its energy into "above" ground growth, (flowering) and root growth comes to a halt, or nearlly ceases.. Without a proper root structure to support 'that', ... growth is bound to suffer.
> I am also of the opinion that forced early flowering effects potency and quality in a negative manner. But these are only "my opinions". Others will beg to differ.


 
That is great info spoken from experience I'm sure.........

I agree as I'm experiencing this with some Aghani seedlings 12/12 from seed. They simply do not have the root establishment for gathering nutes for flowering. I have never had such a time with sickly looking MJ seedlings. I have missed the thick, dense, foliage of vegging plants that I'm used to when I send them to flower.

I think after this batch of Afghanis harvests off, I'm going to go back to at least 4 weeks of veg. And _that's_ spoken from experience.


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

Hick said:
			
		

> ..at onset of flowering, "all" strains will stretch to some degree. Some will triple in heigth, most all will "at least" double.
> If you aren't seeing any growth, "my" personal opinion/guess, would be the attempted forced flowering at such an early age. I'm still a believer that plants should be grown to "sexual maturity" before flowering is induced. (usually 4-6 weeks)
> Forced flowering simply goes against the natural metobolic actions that have been bred into the plants for thousands of years. ..IMO. "It just ain't natural"..  ..and that does make a difference.
> Keep in mind, that vegetive growth "above" ground, is directly related to the amount of growth underground (roots). IMHO..when flowering begins, the plants put the lions share of its energy into "above" ground growth, (flowering) and root growth comes to a halt, or nearlly ceases.. Without a proper root structure to support 'that', ... growth is bound to suffer.
> I am also of the opinion that forced early flowering effects potency and quality in a negative manner. But these are only "my opinions". Others will beg to differ.




 Ok, Hick:  where in the world were you, when we were deciding if i was going to go 12/12 early.???  if you would have been there, i prob wouldnt be 12/12 right now.....ughhh i really hope this grow goes somewhere....i still think it will.

 and if my plant will not grow from here, how in the world does 12/12 from seed even work???  and i vegged for 2 weeks.


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## md.apothecary (Nov 29, 2007)

Yes, your plants will STILL grow, slower, but still grow, and yes you can go straight into flower. As a matter of fact, you can start seed at 12/12 and it will grow right into flower.... Want to see my example? This plant was started from seed outside just about 4 weeks ago... and look it's less than 6" tall and is going into a flower mode. Never seen any 'normal' veg stage lighting.







How about some real facts:

The 40/60 Phenomena are events observed during the indoor cultivation of flowering cannabis, and when using a strict 12   hour inductive photoperiod (aka 12/12). The events start with the first day of the inductive stage (12/12), and end on   the day a mature crop is ready for harvest, collectively this period of time is called the Days Spent Flowering.
*Stretch Phase (early flowering)*

 The stretch phase is a period of time during early flowering where rapid extraordinary outward growth takes place. Some   growers have reported seeing 5 inches of growth in a single day during the stretch. This phase is characterized first by   the extraordinary growth accompanied by longer than usual internodes, then the explosive outward growth slowly tapers off   as internodes shorten. The end of the phase is signaled when growth tapers down to approximately 1/2 inch or less per day.   This coincides with a time span equaling 40% of the total Days Spent Flowering. At this point growth shifts from outward   to building bulk on existing growth, otherwise known as late flowering or the fattening phase.
*Fatten Phase (late flowering) *

 The last 60% of the inductive phase is a period where outward growth is less significant. In fact, it can appear as if   growth has stopped completely due to the very short internodes. During this phase a more complex set of growth activities   occur. It's not much different from an apple tree that stopped producing new apples and is now devoting its remaining time   to maturing or ripening the apples it already has. With female cannabis, flower production accelerates, floral clusters   begin to grow wider or _fatten_, resin production increases and peaks, sinsemilla calyxes plump, pistils start to   wither and change color, and not long after that the plant is ready for harvest.
*How To Use The Phenomena*

     The time-table of the stretch and fatten phases are important events for cultivators growing an unknown variety for the   first time. The two most common anxieties for indoor growers during flowering of an untested variety are....

Running out of headroom or grow space due to unanticipated growth.
Being unable to predict the harvest date in advance.
 An indoor grower with limited space, especially limited headroom, can find his plants pressing against hot lights if he   doesn't take measures to plan for the explosive growth that takes place during the stretch phase. Knowing how long the   stretch will last can give him that advantage. Similarly, a grower with limited time doesn't want to wait until the show   is over to know when it will end. There are many things he may want to do with his time now that it's freed up from the   high maintenance demands of extraordinarily fast growing plants during the stretch. Having an idea whether this period   of lower maintenance will extend another 40, 60, 80, or ??? days will also help in the timely scheduling of his next crop.


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

thats what i wanted to hear, thanks  X 10,000.
  sooo should i raise my lights a bit, so the plants stretch for it?
  I have the lights as close as plantly possible.


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## md.apothecary (Nov 29, 2007)

not sure on distance of light since this was done outside to start, but now it's under a 12/12 indoor flower room. I don't 'think' it will matter too much the distance of the lights, because the plants will grow either way, but keep an eye on it, because as mentioned above, could grow in a huge spurt overnight, and you don't want it to burn the plant if it touches overnight.


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

alright, well i rasied it just a tad, all should be good.
 Thanks again, ill post an update PIC in my journal...soon as i find some dam Double A


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## Hick (Nov 29, 2007)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> Yes, your plants will STILL grow, slower, but still grow, and yes you can go straight into flower. As a matter of fact, you can start seed at 12/12 and it will grow right into flower.... Want to see my example? This plant was started from seed outside just about 4 weeks ago... and look it's less than 6" tall and is going into a flower mode. Never seen any 'normal' veg stage lighting.



  Of course it can be done. Several journals here will document that.
  But does it "negatively" effect the yeild, potency and quality of the final product ??


  It appears to have..THAT  plant.


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

i dont think potency is effected, or quailty.
  Yeild..i think it would be less than normal.
  if you did it right, under hps. i think you could get close to a normal yeilding single cola plant.


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## md.apothecary (Nov 29, 2007)

Hick said:
			
		

> Of course it can be done. Several journals here will document that.
> But does it "negatively" effect the yeild, potency and quality of the final product ??
> 
> 
> It appears to have..THAT  plant.



Well of course it's going to effect yield because there will be less nodes to have buds at. However, you will still get a product of quality if it's going to have quality to begin with.

With all due respect, and honesty, the question wasn't necessarily directed towards anything aside from the fact of whether or not it will "Grow". 

Then again, a lot of microgrowers get about the same yield as a plant starting off from 12/12 so it might be a positive for some. 

My plant will be small, and produce a small amount of final product, but in the end, it's how I wanted to grow it. This plant will produce probably a good dense little cola


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 29, 2007)

12/12 worked great for me. Check my journal

1. Shorter crop turnaround
2. Save money on electricity, nutes, bulbs
3. Fit more plants in the same space
4. Plants have more light because of less lateral branching
5. Easier to manage
6. Less height restrictive

I would definitley advise it. You're just speeding up the plants life cycle.

Sorry Hick, but growing indoors under artificial light, feeding nutes and controlling environmental factors with equipment aint natural either. You should try 12/12 ...  

Peace RBH


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## Pot Belly (Nov 29, 2007)

Hey guys - here is an Afghani 12/12 from seed.  I had to try it.  It's alright, but not really my bag.

I wish I didn't have the 24 hr veg elect, and related exhaust issues for another box set-up.  Each growing style has it's plusses and minuses...........

I think it all ends up in preference and to each his own.  I prefer to get them nice, bushy, and thick.  Then switchem to 12/12.

She has 4 to 5 more weeks to go so she will be one big fat bud for cutting time.


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## md.apothecary (Nov 29, 2007)

pot belly... what size pot is that that you used? i want to put a unused rubbermaid to use and wanted to know what size pot that was. Looks like a good size for my LED micro setup.

I am going to build an ALL in one setup for my microgrow.

it's a growbox/herb dryer combo with carbon scrubber and fan. Will be great!


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 29, 2007)

Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> Sorry Hick, but growing indoors under artificial light, feeding nutes and controlling environmental factors with equipment aint natural either. You should try 12/12 ...
> 
> Peace RBH



so funny, but very True.

 thanks alot for the advice Runbyhemp. it made a world of difference.


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## DLtoker (Nov 29, 2007)

Look up a grower named elephantman.  He taught me so much in the matter of just a few weeks.  His grow journal on this forum consists of mainly 12/12 from seed plant.  His pic in the gallery titled "mini malawi" is a sativa dominant plant grown from seed on a 12/12 light schedule.


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## audix2359 (Nov 29, 2007)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> Hey guys - here is an Afghani 12/12 from seed.  I had to try it.  It's alright, but not really my bag.
> 
> I wish I didn't have the 24 hr veg elect, and related exhaust issues for another box set-up.  Each growing style has it's plusses and minuses...........
> 
> I think it all ends up in preference and to each his own.  I prefer to get them nice, bushy, and thick.  Then switchem to 12/12.



If my plants look half that nice I'll be very happy.


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 30, 2007)

""One thing is obvious though, some of the most powerful herbs on the planet come from very close to the equator, where there is never more than 13 hours of light a day. Time to maturity from birth has alot to do with a 12/12 regime from birth...some plants will be very small, some can hit 6-7 feet...with no veg light cycle, but as I understand it, potency is not affected either way."" ~ elephantman


 thats really all i needed to know.
 and someone said that its not natural to grow from seed at 12/12....but i would say that its pritty natural  if its close to the equator.

   the pic i have attached, is one that elephantman grew. It is likely that i will end up with something similar to this.
 but i think i can do better than that, and equal the yeild of a single cola normal plant. Im am working hard on getting my CFL lights just perfect.


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## md.apothecary (Nov 30, 2007)

what's the link to that post/thread? I'd like to read it.


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 30, 2007)

> and someone said that its not natural to grow from seed at 12/12....but i would say that its pritty natural if its close to the equator.



Excellent point Ekoostik Hookah. That picture of emans plant does not do this method justice

Peace RBH


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 30, 2007)

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6648&highlight=elephantman

 dar ya go buddeh 
 Jah Mon.
  Thok Eit Up Mon


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## Hick (Nov 30, 2007)

Ekoostik_Hookah said:
			
		

> ""One thing is obvious though, some of the most powerful herbs on the planet come from very close to the equator, where there is never more than 13 hours of light a day. Time to maturity from birth has alot to do with a 12/12 regime from birth...some plants will be very small, some can hit 6-7 feet...with no veg light cycle, but as I understand it, potency is not affected either way."" ~ elephantman
> 
> 
> thats really all i needed to know.
> ...



"but as *I understand it,* potency is not affected either
 way.""
..notice.."as I understand it"???
  this is an *opinion* .. mine is different 



> "its pritty natural  if its close to the equator."


....."*ONLY* if you are growing equatorial sativas, Equatorial strains are NOT regulated by "photoperiodism" .. They grow (veg) to sexual maturity, then flower. 
_"As I understand it"_ some ES's may veg for 2 years before flowering at the equator. 
"No place" else on earth, where mj is grown or has been cultivated, does that .._phenomenon_ occur. .. _"It ain't natural"_ for 95%+ of plants.
 "PHOTOPERIODISM"... 
Many flowering plants use the pigment phytochrome to sense seasonal changes in day length, which they take as signals to flower. This sensitivity to day length is termed photoperiodism. Broadly speaking, flowering plants can be classified as long day plants, short day plants, or day neutral plants, depending on thir particular response to changes in day length. Long day plants require a certain minimum length of daylight to initiate flowering, so these plants flower in the spring or summer. Conversely, short day plants will flower when the length of daylight falls below a certain critical level. Day neutral plants do not initiate flowering based on photoperiodism, though some may use temperature sensitivity (vernalization) instead.
 Although a short day plant cannot flower during the long days of summer, it is not actually the period of light exposure that limits flowering. Rather, a short day plant requires a minimal length of uninterrupted darkness in each 24 hour period (a short daylength) before floral development can begin. It has been determined experimentally that a short day plant (long night) will not flower if a flash of phytochrome activiting light is used on the plant during the night.



> Originally Posted by *Runbyhemp*
> _
> Sorry Hick, but growing indoors under artificial light, feeding nutes and controlling environmental factors with equipment aint natural either. You should try 12/12 ...
> 
> Peace RBH_


_
"BUT"... you/we try to provide a near natural environment, Don't you/we??
 fresh air, mimmick sunlight in both summer and fall...
  Sorry folks, a few scraggly 3-5 gram buds aren't going to convince me that it doesn't negatively effect  the plants potential  possibilities.

_


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## Pot Belly (Nov 30, 2007)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> pot belly... what size pot is that that you used? i want to put a unused rubbermaid to use and wanted to know what size pot that was. Looks like a good size for my LED micro setup.
> 
> I am going to build an ALL in one setup for my microgrow.
> 
> it's a growbox/herb dryer combo with carbon scrubber and fan. Will be great!


 
Hey md - here's the post where I did a step by step with that container.  It includes measurements of the tub in the pics.  That little Afghani in there is the same one by the way.

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showpost.php?p=169207&postcount=56


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 30, 2007)

> "BUT"... you/we try to provide a near natural environment, Don't you/we??
> fresh air, mimmick sunlight in both summer and fall...
> Sorry folks, a few scraggly 3-5 gram buds aren't going to convince me that it doesn't negatively effect the plants potential possibilities.



How is switching from 18/6 light one day to 12/12 the next natural. What natural event does this mimic ?

3-5 grams ... lol ... I got 10 ounces from 6 plants

I  present you with facts, not opinions. I have tried it and seen the results. I was skeptical at first, but not any more

Don't knock it till you've tried it


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## Hick (Nov 30, 2007)

RH.."WHAT FACTS?"... you grow w/ your method.. I'll stick to the "tried and true"..
  12/12 from seed occurs in "one" very small portion of the globe..."THAT" is a fact..
nowhere else on earth does or has mj, ever been 'genetically' seasoned to it from seed.
 "THAT" is what has made, through "evolution", 'equatorial sat's' non-photo sensetive..


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 30, 2007)

My method is "tried and true" Hick. The results speak for themselves. Check out the nomercy.nl forum and the 12/12 thread.

So, "in your opinion" if I put a seed in the ground in the middle of July or early August and it starts to flower immediatley, then this is unnatural ?

I've got about 20 seedlings, started under 12/12 a week ago. I will keep you updated.


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## akirahz (Nov 30, 2007)

Ekoostik_Hookah said:
			
		

> ""One thing is obvious though, some of the most powerful herbs on the planet come from very close to the equator, where there is never more than 13 hours of light a day. Time to maturity from birth has alot to do with a 12/12 regime from birth...some plants will be very small, some can hit 6-7 feet...with no veg light cycle, but as I understand it, potency is not affected either way."" ~ elephantman
> 
> 
> thats really all i needed to know.
> ...



wait a minute... THAT IS THE COOLEST MICRO PLANT I'VE EVER SEEN!1!!111!


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## bombbudpuffa (Nov 30, 2007)

I like the flowering from seed method and I have some monsters!!! Check my gj in my sig. I think you should try it Hick...you may be surprised.


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## IV:XX (Nov 30, 2007)

The longer the veg the bigger the yield, this is fact...Can a plant produce bud if it is grown from a seed under 12/12? Yes! But it will not compare to a plant that has been given time to mature before being flipped to 12/12.

 I guess if one is growing unknown strains(bagweed) and/or has an unlimited source of seeds, this method would make sense...25 minime colas would be grown to produce the yield of 5 plants? Otherwise, if one is paying for  expensive seeds it would not make much sense to create "minime-plants"

No, growing indoors is not natural...But one tries to create as close to natural as possible...The further one gets away from a plants natural enviro the yield and maybe even the quality will be negatively effected...Simply put a plant grown from seed that has vegged for 6-8 weeks will produce more bud than a plant grown from seed under 12/12 from start.


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## bombbudpuffa (Nov 30, 2007)

> Can a plant produce bud if it is grown from a seed under 12/12? Yes! But it will not compare to a plant that has been given time to mature before being flipped to 12/12.


Mine compare. Even my indica is at around 2 1/2 ft. I don't know...I think a lot of people haven't tried it and are giving advice on the subject.


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 30, 2007)

> 25 minime colas would be grown to produce the yield of 5 plants?


 
Aint nothing minime about these colas. I got about 70% of the yield that I got from plants vegged for 6 weeks. When you take into consideration the extra plants that you get in the same space, and the extra light that these plants receive  plus all cost saving it works out a lot more economical. Why would I be wasting my time growing a second time this way ?



> Simply put a plant grown from seed that has vegged for 6-8 weeks will produce more bud than a plant grown from seed under 12/12 from start.



No one is disputing that. The yield will be less.


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 30, 2007)

Sorry to double post. This also means that you do not need a seperate veg and flower room. You can just keep adding plants at any stage of development to the same room.

I've sat down and worked out how much I can harvest using both methods over the space of a year and the costs of each. 12/12 wins.

The only disadvantage is that there is a slightly higher percentage of males in the crop.


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## Hick (Nov 30, 2007)

> So, "in your opinion" if I put a seed in the ground in the middle of July or early August and it starts to flower immediatley, then this is unnatural ?


  MJ matures in the fall, drops it's seed, lies dormant over winter, and begins growth in the early spring, :"naturally". .. "as it has for centuries" 
So,.. my answer would be "yes". For a seed to be dropped from a plant and germinated in July or August, is definately not the natural order ..
  I'm not egging for an arguement guys. But I'm not going to be easily swayed from my beliefes that it is not/can not be beneficial to the end quality. 
  I know some of you have been doing it with satisfactory results..."satisfactory" to your expectations. And that is fine, I'm not going to try to tell you tht you aren't satisfied. Immediate gratification has it's attraction..
  Since I primarily utilize clones, I have no desire to try 12/12 from seed. I prefer to  grow out any plants from seed, to full maturity, flower, and decide which(if any) are suitable as a "keeper" donor, after I have observed them throughout a full grow, and tested the final product to see if it meets the criteria.

   Part of my concern lies in the long term effects of 12/12 from seed on the genetic integrity of high quality mj.  "Early" flowering is NOT a desirable trait in the further progression of the breeding of drug quality pot. 
The breeders that I have followed, been mentored by, learned from, believe that the secret lies in the recessive traits in 'late flowering _males_.. of all things.


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## audix2359 (Nov 30, 2007)

Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> The only disadvantage is that there is a slightly higher percentage of males in the crop.



That's really surprising.  I've read that reduced photoperiod early in the plants life is one of the main factors in influencing females.  There's an article out there somewhere by a Dutch grower about 12/12 from seed and he claims to get 80% females this way.  He uses this to argue against using clones.

Before I scrapped my grow that was 12/12 from seed I had 5 of 5 turn out to be female.


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 30, 2007)

> That's really surprising. I've read that reduced photoperiod early in the plants life is one of the main factors in influencing females. There's an article out there somewhere by a Dutch grower about 12/12 from seed and he claims to get 80% females this way. He uses this to argue against using clones.
> 
> Before I scrapped my grow that was 12/12 from seed I had 5 of 5 turn out to be female.



Perhaps if I put them under flouro for 3 weeks first I could get a higher percentage of girls. I meant to try it this time but I've just moved house so just got things up and running as quick as I could.

With HPS humidity is lower, temps are higher and there is less blue light. These are all contributing factors towards the sex ratio.

Next time I'll definitley start flouro first.

Hick, have you checked out that nomercy.nl thread ?


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## Hick (Nov 30, 2007)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> .I think a lot of people haven't tried it and are giving advice on the subject.


not trying to be a jerk, but..
  "I" think that I have been growing, studying mj horticulture for 25 years. "Your" one time experience fails to impress me. 
.. A "LOT" can be gained/learned from other peoples mistakes, that is how research comes into play. I don't have to switch my light regime around a few times in order to "know" that it will induce hermophradism. Someone else has already determined that for me.


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## IV:XX (Nov 30, 2007)

Runby,

 You obviously have an endless supply of seed...I can see the potential benefit if one has tons of seed...Otherwise, it would be a waste in my opinion...Seeds are not cheap! 

 Am I missing something? I think HICK is lost as well?


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## Pot Belly (Nov 30, 2007)

Hey guys - anyone experienced with 12/12 have issues with poorly developing or sickly looking seedlings?  Mine seem to go into a slump.

Or is is operator error?  Other than the 12/12.


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 30, 2007)

> Rudy,
> 
> You obviously have an endless supply of seed...I can see the potential benefit if one has tons of seed...Otherwise, it would be a waste in my opinion...Seeds are not cheap!
> 
> Am I missing something?



I assume you are addressing me ? Hang on a minute. Just have to put my lipstick on and a skirt. Now, Rudy at your service :hubba: 

What makes you think that I have an endless supply of seed ? I don't have money to be throwing around. 

Even with the cost of seed, it still works out cheaper, and you have more weed. Does that make sense ?

Potbelly, my seeds do look a bit straggly for the first week or so because they're stretching for the HPS but they fill out well.


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## Pot Belly (Nov 30, 2007)

This 12/12 concept is brought to you by a seller of seeds and his marketing department.  Of course they would want you to buy all the seeds you need for your grows cause you don't keep mothers and clones...........What a great way to move lotsa seeds.

So if you were to choose this 12/12 method, you are forced to go through a lot of seeds.  Lot of $ and risk of getting "lost" at the border.  Not to speak of all the excitement that could bring you at your house.

Or you make your own batch of seeds on a single bud location since you have plenty of males and females.  

*If you chose to make your own seeds perpetually, what would be the genetic outcome of your seeds say after 5 or 10 generations?  Does the weed slowly change into a new strain, reverting back to its original form of hemp weed?*

That is probably a major hang-up with the 12/12 concept - Do I buy seeds or make them?


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## IV:XX (Nov 30, 2007)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> This 12/12 concept is brought to you by a seller of seeds and his marketing department.  Of course they would want you to buy all the seeds you need for your grows cause you don't keep mothers and clones...........What a great way to move lotsa seeds.
> 
> So if you were to choose this 12/12 method, you are forced to go through a lot of seeds.  Lot of $ and risk of getting "lost" at the border.  Not to speak of all the excitement that could bring you at your house.
> 
> ...



It gives the false idea that one is saving money because you do noit have grow as long...The reality is it is not cheaper. I agree, if you have an endless source of seeds then it might be worth it with some strains. One would plant 50 seeds to get 25 females to have 25 minime buds to equal a 5 plant grow with 6-8 week veg. This would get very expensive!


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## Runbyhemp (Nov 30, 2007)

If I were making seeds, I would grow the mother in the traditional way.



> One would plant 50 seeds to get 25 females to have 25 minime buds to equal a 5 plant grow with 6-8 week veg. This would get very expensive!



You tell me, logically, how you ended up with these numbers. You're just pulling numbers out of the air


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## md.apothecary (Nov 30, 2007)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> *If you chose to make your own seeds perpetually, what would be the genetic outcome of your seeds say after 5 or 10 generations?  Does the weed slowly change into a new strain, reverting back to its original form of hemp weed?*



For outdoor growers, strains that have been acclimated for years in their locale are indispensible. Many of these growers have spent decades perfecting a strain for their exact climate, yet all of this work can be lost instantly as a result of a bust or simply not having anyone to pass them down to. Cannabis genetics can be maintained for many years simply by keeping a clone alive, however this doesn't do much for preserving the genetic diversity of a strain. Ideally, seedlines should be both preserved through long term storage and being grown out and seeded each year. Inbreeding depression Much myth and misinformation is spread in marijuana literature regarding inbreeding depression in cannabis populations. As a result, much of the genetics on the market today is merely a collection of cross after cross of different varieties with little effort towards stabilizing unique traits. Proof that marijuana can be successfully inbred lies in examples of inbred lines like Skunk #1 or Northern Lights, which have shown no signs of inbreeding depression after decades of incestuous crosses. Understanding how marijuana has evolved helps to explain this. In countries where marijuana originates it has evolved alongside humans, often being maintained in small family gardens amongst other food and medicine crops. Much of today's gene pool originated in Afghanistan, where cannabis was grown like this in small family plots for generations, until the advent of large fields in the 70's and 80's. Plant phenotypes varied slightly from one valley to the next, and the pollen carried by wind from the slightly different gene pool of cannabis in the next valley maintained population vigour and prevented inbreeding depression. We can reproduce this scenario easily ourselves by maintaining several lines of the same strain, crossing them into each other every few years. For example, when you grow out a pack of ten true breeding seeds pick the nicest female and seed it with two or more different males (marking which branch was pollinated by which male). Seed from each cross must be kept separate, and future generations kept from crossing with other lines. Every third or fourth generation these lines are crossed together and new lines brought out of the resulting seeds. Some of the seeds from each generation should be saved for long-term storage in case of accidental cross-pollination or crop loss down the road. Isolation distances Whether growing indoors or out, isolation distances are something that you should always be aware of. Marijuana is a wind pollinated plant, meaning that pollen is carried by wind from the male to the female recipient, sometimes over very long distances. The recent legalization of hemp, although a major step forward, has caused some concern for marijuana growers. These fields consist of thousands of plants which generate an immense amount of pollen, which will seed marijuana just as easily as it will hemp. Other growers in your area and other strains which you yourself may be trying to keep pure are also possible contaminators to breeding projects. Isolation distances will vary depending on geography, wind currents and vegetation coverage. However a safe rule of thumb is to isolate outdoor crops from each other and hemp fields by at least a half mile. Indoors this is not as much of a concern, as males can be watched carefully and covered with a paper enclosure to prevent pollen from drifting to other plants. A question of latitude The most popular theory of the evolution of cannabis is that all cannabis originated in the Himalayas and spread gradually throughout the world. Under varying human and environmental pressures cannabis has evolved into all ends of the spectrum from low THC long fibered hemp strains to couch-locking Indicas. Latitude has definitely played a key role in this matter, influencing THC levels as well as ratios of THC to CBD. Most drug strains originate between 37 North and 35 South of the equator, with some of the highest quality strains coming from very near the equator (most notable Southeast Asia at 10-20 North). As you get up into the more Northern latitudes (like Russia), cultivated and feral cannabis leans more towards the hemp end of the spectrum, with low THC and high CBD. This makes the job of maintaining marijuana varieties outdoors at common North American latitudes of 44-50 North a little more complicated. Without selection for high THC parents, pure strain marijuana can drift towards phenotypes of its hempen cousins. Put simply, as the latitude is not exerting pressure on the gene pool to uphold its high THC traits, human influence must step in by diligently selecting the most potent plants as parents for future generations. Legendary strains like Matanuska Thunderfuck (bred outdoors in Alaska) and Friesland Indica (outdoors for Northern Holland) are living proof that this high THC trait can be maintained at Northern latitudes. Common vegetable seed saving techniques, like open pollination and collecting seeds from many different plants then mixing them together, must be avoided. This could likely be the reason for the low THC nature of many of the strains coming from large Swiss fields in past years. Up until recently these fields were grown out and seeded freely with little goal in mind other than acclimatization. Long term storage As seeds are living things they have a life span and decline in vigour as they age. For medium term storage an air-tight container in the refrigerator works well. Long term storage is the best way to preserve these special strains for tomorrows growers, and for this freezers work great, provided a few rules are carefully followed. Most important is that the seed be dried below the 8% moisture level, as above this the water in the seed will expand upon freezing and burst the cell walls. This drying is done with the use of silica gel and an airtight container. The gel can be obtained from any vegetable seed company and many gardening stores. The seeds and gel are sealed in the same container and the gel will change color, indicating the moisture that it has absorbed from the seed. Seeds should be wrapped in tissue paper and sealed in an airtight container before being put into the freezer, as frozen seeds are very fragile and the paper will protect the seed from shattering if bumped. Seeds stored like this will retain vigour and high germination ratios for long periods of time. When thawing seeds for use, allow them to fully adjust to room temperature before opening the container. This will prevent unwanted condensation from forming on the seed surface. Allow the seeds to regain most of their original moisture level by sitting open for a few days before being germinated. Stand Tall Once a cross has reached the F5 or F6 generation it can be considered an inbred line and can be relatively easily maintained using the above techniques. Many of the strains listed in catalogues are inbred lines and may or may not be indicated as such. If this is a strain that a seed company has put years of time and work into bringing to this point it is considered unfair to reproduce their work and sell it yourself, but there is nothing wrong with preserving their genetics for yourself or to pass on to future generations should it no longer be commercially available. Preserving cannabis genetic under the current legal climate is as honourable a pastime as there is. So stand up, be proud, just don't get counted.

edit: info above was from a word document from back in the day. However, the only info I could find with this info was http://mellowgold.com/grow/index.html, though this material is not originally from them, I had gotten it from OG some years back.


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## shortyrocks1 (Nov 30, 2007)

I think clearly each method has its place.  I agree that if you are paying good money for seeds and you dont really have any height restrictions or a time crunch then absolutely veg for 6-8 weeks then flip.  But for some, and i am in this category, i have unlimited bagseed, and i am growing in the top of my closet, and i dont have money for a huge light setup, so for me 12/12 is the clear choice.  I can have plants of all ages in the same area at the same time so i can provide myself with a constant supply (hopefully) and that is my ultimate goal so for me...im gonna give 12/12 a whirl.

Just my 2 cents.


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## DLtoker (Nov 30, 2007)

Hey Md.,  Can you provide us with your source?


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 30, 2007)

sry hick, i wasnt trying to bust yer balls or nothing, i was just stating what i believed.
    and for the sake of science,  i will post pictures all the way to my harvest, so we can see how it goes. i will also post a dry weight of my 7 girls when i am done.

    Now Iv:xx,  i beg to differ that it is FACT, that the longer you vegg, the bigger the yeild.
  if you vegged one normal plant for 2-3 months, and i vegged a plant for 1 month, and then LST the plant, i bet i would get a higher yeild than your single cola plant.  I really think it is all how the grower does it.....maybe thats a fact???

 even if you vegged for 6 months, there would bee so much foliage, that only the top of the plant would have decent bud anyways. i think it gets to the point where you over Vegg., as weird as that sounds.


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## bombbudpuffa (Nov 30, 2007)

> will the plants still grow in height and get bigger?


Yes. Some more or less than others. Just to answer the original question. If you pick 12/12 from seed or veg first...good luck!


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Nov 30, 2007)

and isnt the 12/12 method beyond argument?
  Hasnt it already been proven that it works.
 It has already been prooved that if you do it right, that the out come is good., I am a Firm believe now, MD posted a pic of an all CFL grow, under 12/12.  and the buds were insane....it looked like it was grown under HPS.
   I do believe some people need to do a little more research, read a few more Threads, before they Knock the 12/12 from seed method.


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## md.apothecary (Nov 30, 2007)

in all fairness, this is what research consists of... everyone here still has lots to know, no one individual knows it all. Again, like with any experiment, variables play a large factor in EVERYTHING. From altitude, to smog, to heat, to cooling, to lights, to soils, to nutes, everything is going to be different.

My GH nutes might be a microgram off from your GH nutes and this could be disasterous in my situation, but not yours because all the variables play a part... it's a butterfly effect. No one person is correct. :doh:


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## Hick (Dec 1, 2007)

DLtoker said:
			
		

> Hey Md.,  Can you provide us with your source?


I'm "pretty sure" that came from the "Mello Gold" website. But you're roght DL, the source _"should"_ be given credit.



> and isnt the 12/12 method beyond argument?
> Hasnt it already been proven that it works.
> It has already been prooved that if you do it right, that the out come is good., I am a Firm believe now, MD posted a pic of an all CFL grow, under 12/12. and the buds were insane....it looked like it was grown under HPS.
> I do believe some people need to do a little more research, read a few more Threads, before they Knock the 12/12 from seed method.



None has said it doesn't work. Noone has said it can't be done.
"outcome is _good_"... But is it up to the _full potential_??
Is it "beneficial" in any way, other than fast gratification?
Is it detrimental to the gene pool?
  Noone has addressed these issues, the issues that I questioned. Only that "I have done it, I can do it".."My buds are big".. yadda yadda...

I'm done with this thread now. Carry on as you please..


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Dec 1, 2007)

Full potential, defiantly not....


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## Mutt (Dec 1, 2007)

Hick said:
			
		

> Is it detrimental to the gene pool?


Had odd mutations when I tried this, but was done with bagseed not stable strains. I will try again to see if it was the strain genetics or the photoperiod. Gonna have to try this one again. Might take a couple of known strains to do a comparison.
I have to agree...this is messing with the standard needs of an MJ plant.


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## akirahz (Dec 1, 2007)

If you want to grow some prize winning bud with heavier yield then add a vegg period.  Drawback? you lose time is all, but its your own so its free!

If you want to grow some prize winning bud with less yield, then don't add a vegg period. Drawback? You'd have to plant more plants then you would without a veg period to makeup for the loss of bud yield.


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## Ekoostik_Hookah (Dec 1, 2007)

Hey, how long do you guys think untill i see the Sex of the plants??
  Im kinda asking anyone who has done 12/12 from seed before.
 but remember i Vegged for 1-2 weeks, then flowered them.

    also, do the 2 little green hairs; by the bud sites, turn into white pistils??


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## Runbyhemp (Dec 2, 2007)

> "outcome is good"... But is it up to the full potential??


From someone who has been smoking for the last 20 years, I would say it's up to it's full potential. If that counts for anything.



> Is it "beneficial" in any way, other than fast gratification?


Yes, lights are running less, your bulbs last longer, you save electricity, no need for seperate veg and flower rooms, you save on nutes and there is less restriction on height.



> Is it detrimental to the gene pool?



It can't be detrimental if you are are only growing for smoking. If I were breeding I would stick to traditional methods



> Noone has addressed these issues, the issues that I questioned. Only that "I have done it, I can do it".."My buds are big".. yadda yadda...



Now, all issues have been addressed, yadda, yadda, right back at ya  

The way I see it is I am offering experienced opinions. What experience have you in this, Hick ? 

Hey Ekoostik, I would say about 2 weeks after changing lights and you should be able to tell.


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## Growdude (Dec 2, 2007)

I see this is a heated debate.
But all I want to know is why this cant be done from clones?
seems like you would get the best of both worlds.

All my grows were completed from clone to buds in 10 weeks.
I just dont get it?


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## Mutt (Dec 2, 2007)

One of my bagseeds that were on for 12/12 still went through a veg. period. It took 4-5 weeks to show sex. Tells me that not all strains might not act the same as others with this method. If it takes 3 months for it to finish cycle, putting more light on it for a month to get it bushier will increase yeild. IMO

"full potential" is not just potency, it is yeild as well.



> Liebig's Law of the Minimum, often simply called Liebig's Law or the Law of the Minimum, is a principle developed in agricultural science by Carl Sprengel (1828) and later popularized by Justus von Liebig. It states that growth is controlled not by the total of resources available, but by the scarcest resource.


By reducing light when veg. period is needed you are adding to the minimum.
Light, Container size, quality of water, and nutrients....which ever the "weakest link" will stunt the growth of MJ...thus not allowing it to reach its full potential. IMHO

Growdude, 
I have to agree clones are the best route, no veg. period, can store a favorite pheno for a long long time. 
I don't get why having a veg box to store a mom or two is such a bad thing. I have a rubbermaid with 3 CFLs big PC fan cost me under 30 bucks (price of a small bag of herb). Only about 90W being used.

BTW:
Of course breeders would want us growing this way. No clones means you have to purchase more every grow.....job security


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## Mutt (Dec 2, 2007)

Growdude said:
			
		

> But all I want to know is why this cant be done from clones?


The clones are taken from a mature plant that is under veg...so all you have to do is wait for it to root and then you can slap it under 12/12...veg. period is over....clones are already mature. Just gotta root em first. 1 plant=lbs upon lbs. where with this method...small yeild and have to start over.


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## Stoney Bud (Dec 2, 2007)

I see a little confusion on costs.

If you use "X" amount of KWH, (Kilowatt Hours) of electricity to grow an end result of 6 ounces of weed on a flat grow area, or you use "X" amount of electricity to grow 20 ounces of weed, the cost per/gram is going to be higher, not lower, for the smaller grow. It's close, but still costs MORE to grow per/gram.

I've done both.

I'm sorry to point this out, but it's already been done.

I hate to see everyone getting all twisted over this. It's a matter of "Bud per/inch" in the entire grow area. The larger plant uses nutrients more efficiently and a larger amount of smokable weed per/KW is the result.

Runbyhemp, you have a very valid point on one aspect of this type of grow; The plants grow with much less height. In some cases, that's a very usful element of the grow.

Now, disregard what I've said above, IF you have used clones AND have covered an entire grow area with plants that are set up on a space saving graduated "Stadium seat" type grow area that is four sided from the center, or in a open-sided bookcase grow with lights used between the bookcases. Those, and only those methods of growing in a "12/12" type grow will outperform in quantity against a 5 foot tall set of plants in the same area. The open-sided bookcase grow is the most efficient method overall. If anyone is interested, let me know via PM and I'll start a thread on it.

The lights for those types of grow are used in a much more efficient method.

Either way, it's not really something that has to be considered. ALL of us here are growing to provide ourselves with smoke for our personal use.

IF it were something that was a consideration for mass production, THEN it would be a valid argument. 

SINCE we're not ever talking about that, then the tiny amount in cost per/KWH is so slight that it's kind of a pointless argument...but a neat experiment.

Good luck to you Runbyhemp. I hope you get a good result from your grow and it's really great smoke!


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## Type_S150 (Dec 2, 2007)

Growdude said:
			
		

> I see this is a heated debate.
> But all I want to know is why this cant be done from clones?
> seems like you would get the best of both worlds.
> 
> ...


So you take clones, throw them on 12/12 right away, and are able to harvest in 10 weeks?


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