# tried, tested and true.



## ta2dguy (Feb 23, 2010)

hi there everyone who reads this, thanks for stopping in and taking a look. i dunno if this is going to turn into what i want it to or not, and i hope people dont decide to use this thread to bash away at people for crazy or different ideas or ways of doing/trying thing or as a place to state that "literature says this so it must be so"(i say this cuz alot of people quote other peoples testing and experience)  because i want this to be a "this is what i did and this is the results i got" thread, but here goes . i am a very curious, hard headed,hard working, determined, find out the hard way kinda person. i would like to try and use this thread as a marijuana mythbusters kinda thing. i would like to put some of the "myths" we all hear about to the test. i know that everything that i may attempt has probably been done before but that is where i need to know for myself if these things are true or not . i am sure there are others out there like me and this might be a good starting point for many threads on many subjects. i also have limited time/space/resources so if there are others out there with a bit of time/space and curiosity i am sure that there will be many different so called myths to try but it wont be easy at times. there may will be times that intentional damage to the great plant will be necessary and an ability to toss away plants and seeds without concern(in the name of science). fair to say it wont be a thing for the queasy . i plan on picking a certain myth(or more depending on what i can handle) and posting it as a grow journal so we can all have access to it. i am not sure if this idea is gonna fly or not but i think it is worth a try. i for one am not so fond of the way i get told that if i do something it wont work.... after 15+ years of doing it succsessfully  and things like the " i dont think it can possibly work" attitude...followed up with "but i never tried" or " because so and so says it on page whatever outta this book" or experiences along that line. dont get me wrong   i have many bibles here myself and a ton of growing experience and put a huge amount of trust in both but am still open minded to new ideas and ways as long as they are  tried tested and true . if this turns out the way i hope, it will become a very important and informative thread. if it does not turn out to be helpful in anyway i will not continue on with the thread. it will take some time to properly prepare for this but this is a good starting point... i think .

 i know there are a ton of things out there we want to see done but i would like to make a suggestion for the first couple of myths to try....

1) feeding seedlings - when to feed them and how much. i was told that i would kill them if i fed them half strength nutes before they were 2 or 3 weeks old.

2) lst or no lst, which produces more.  does letting a plant grow straight up produce as much as a plant that is trained down. is there a noticeable difference in size, structure and overall weight?

3) not a myth but... intentional ph difference in  same clones to show symptoms ie. 1 clone at 5.2, 1 clone at 6.0 and one at 7.5 in both hydro and soil

i dunno what you guys think of this idea but i am sure you will all let me know ... and i hope you do .

if there are people out there interested in trying some stuff dont be shy .


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## fruity86 (Feb 23, 2010)

wot a great idea i love mythbusters 
wot about picking the leafs of in flower maybe you could do 3 clone 
1 no picking 
2 abit of picking 
3 alot of picking 
and see how the yeild changes


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## ta2dguy (Feb 23, 2010)

that is a great one fruity, some(few ) say pick em off early and some say leave em till they drop.... a good one to test for sure. thanks for geting in there with some ideas fruity. as i said before tho there are going to be a ton of tests to run so maybe we can get a small group or something together and try these out .


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## umbra (Feb 23, 2010)

Yo Ta2, I like to think that this site is a mythbuster site. I've been here a little longer than some, and have seen most of your questions already answered. Unfortunately, it is scattered all over. I realize that makes it darn near impossible to find everything and put it all together( whether it is just for you or meant to be a sticky). I did want to wish you good luck, . I have already walked that path.


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## Raz & Nicky (Feb 23, 2010)

we fed some  3 day old seedlings with quarter strength canna veg, and some riztonic and they are fine.....The plants are sat/indica mix....no ill effects. good genetics are important...
Be happy to read any mythsbusted....Might be a good idea to bust the myths in some kinda order/schedule...

Ie myth 1)=  yada yada..

Good luck to anyone whose got the time/patience n resources...


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## ta2dguy (Feb 23, 2010)

thanks for stopping by umbra and i first want to again pass on my deepest condolences to you in your time of loss right now....:48:.

that being said i would like to hope that maybe all those scattered informative threads can eventually be gathered here . if not there can be the same tests done again and documented here. without a doubt most everything has been tried tested and true already but for the new grower and the experienced alike i think this can become a beneficial thread. thanks for the good luck wishes but i need more than luck, mine sucks .


thanks raz + nicky for stopping in too... there is just the information  needed here, now with a few pics and alot more information on your system and some comparisons to some of the same strain seedlings that were fed no nutes early and some fed a 50% and maybe some a full strength at the same time intervals etc., the variables need to be figured out as well as the control and so on.  i hope i dont come off as rude here either r+n but that is also the kinda misleading information that can lead someone into trouble. that may only work for the strain that you have and may kill another strain, does a 50% solution given at the same intervals show signs of overfertilization or not, is there a signifgant size difference in the plants through the early/late stages of growth etc.  i really hope there is no offence taken here cuz i never mean to be offensive in anyway i am just a bit on the devils advocate side and enjoy a good discussion anytime.  :evil: :argue: :48: 

maybe you would be interested in taking on that myth 

i fully agree though that if this continues that there be a master list of myths done in some orderly fashion.... i also fully agree that good genetics is of utmost importance, but someone else may disagree


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## kal el (Feb 23, 2010)

I did a sog grow where I picked all the large fans off. I only tried it twice so far, both times I increased yields between 25 and 50%. I left little fans on the branches along with bud fans. I have only tried this with them packed in closely together, 20 plants in a 2ft by 1.5 ft area.


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## dman1234 (Feb 23, 2010)

removing healthy fan leaves will only hurt your plant and yield.

Myth busted.


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## legalize_freedom (Feb 23, 2010)

I'm all for your thread man...I just wanted to point out the obvious though.

Every strain is different and every plant within that strain is different, unless your working with clones of the same strain, and then you will only be busting myths for that particular plant...

But I'm all for watching to see what you come up with, and wish you all the luck.

I can't go without saying that I refuse to believe that clipping healthy fan leaves will increase yeilds by 25-50%...there are definately other factors at work here.  I just would hate to see some newbie decide to cut off leaves because they saw that statement and thought it was true.

I never undertsood the fascination with cutting off leaves...don't get me wrong I was there once to...I just don't understand how our minds think that cutting on healthy growth could in anyway be beneficial.  It really makes no sense. Unless of course you are topping.

Good Luck with your mythbusting...I've done alot of it myself


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## warfish (Feb 23, 2010)

ta2dguy,  I have to give you props for sticking your neck out there amidst all the possible criticism and just going for it on these tests like you are   There is nothing like hands on learning, hehe  

I hope everything goes well for you on your experiments!


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## fruity86 (Feb 23, 2010)

I never undertsood the fascination with cutting off leaves...don't get me wrong I was there once to...I just don't understand how our minds think that cutting on healthy growth could in anyway be beneficial.  It really makes no sense. Unless of course you are topping.

i know wot your saying LF i think cutting leaves off will only do bad thing but if you have the time space (etc) i think it would be a good idea to show new grower that it doesnt work or does work 
me personaly belive it will reduce your yeild by how much i dont know thats where the busting comes in


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## dman1234 (Feb 23, 2010)

leaves take in light, process it with photosynthesis, and turn it into bud production, this is not a theory, it is science.


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## BBFan (Feb 23, 2010)

I don't think anyone is advocating cutting off ALL fan leaves.  

But, there may be something to trimming a few here and there- perhaps to improve air circulation, or those fans that are so low under the canopy they're just not getting any good light anyway.  I've never done it myself because it just doesn't seem to make sense.

But that doesn't mean that in some circumstances it may help.  I'd be interested in seeing the results.  Maybe I'll try a little myself.


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## ta2dguy (Feb 23, 2010)

now things are starting to heat up . 

hey warfish   i know that it is gonna get rough in here from time to time but i got big shoulders and a thick skin. thanks for stopping in



> removing healthy fan leaves will only hurt your plant and yield.
> 
> Myth busted.


... hi there dman, welcome to the thread. i understand the science of the plant and agree that it seems crazy to cut off healthy leaves cuz they are the engine of the plant but i would also like to see the tests that you have done to prove that leaving them on actually increases your yield or potency. i would like to see anyones actual personal test of this  with pics and stats and the whole nine yards then to me the myth will be busted not because the science book says so  
LF  always a pleasure and a treat to see you around,  i dont want anyone, new or not cutting off their leaves cuz of a single post that is the entire reason for this thread, to show with studies that a certain way does or does not work. i agree that each study will be strain specific cuz marijuana does not come in one standard but that may also allow us to maybe see the same study on different strains cuz this may peak your curiosity(or someone elses) enough for to take a couple plants and do some trimming.... or not   and keep a record of it and post it here



> But, there may be something to trimming a few here and there- perhaps to improve air circulation, or those fans that are so low under the canopy they're just not getting any good light anyway. I've never done it myself because it just doesn't seem to make sense.
> 
> But that doesn't mean that in some circumstances it may help. I'd be interested in seeing the results. Maybe I'll try a little myself.


....bbfan   thats the spirit. if you do a little testing please keep the results 



> I did a sog grow where I picked all the large fans off. I only tried it twice so far, both times I increased yields between 25 and 50%. I left little fans on the branches along with bud fans. I have only tried this with them packed in closely together, 20 plants in a 2ft by 1.5 ft area.


... welcome kal el and thanks for the info. with a few pics, a bit more info and some more numbers and that is what we are looking for. thanks again.

this is definitely gonna get a little tense at moments and i just want everyone to know that this thread was started to give me something to do  but also to help me open my mind to some different ways of doing things. when my mind stops growing so do my plants. happy growing.


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## legalize_freedom (Feb 23, 2010)

fruity86 said:
			
		

> I never undertsood the fascination with cutting off leaves...don't get me wrong I was there once to...I just don't understand how our minds think that cutting on healthy growth could in anyway be beneficial. It really makes no sense. Unless of course you are topping.
> 
> i know wot your saying LF i think cutting leaves off will only do bad thing but if you have the time space (etc) i think it would be a good idea to show new grower that it doesnt work or does work
> me personaly belive it will reduce your yeild by how much i dont know thats where the busting comes in


 
Fruity...I was not knocking your idea...I hope you know that.  My comment was made mostly in response to the claim made by Kal el about his leaf trimming increasing his yeild by 25-50%.

Any one thing that could be done to increase yeild by 50%....to me sounds a little far fetched.  Not that I'm calling our man there a liar either, I'm saying that if his yeild were increased this dramaticly that it was probably from other factors, and not just a trim job.

I'm also not trying to say that some trimming may or may not be beneficial, only that every plant is different.  I have even had clones from the same donor, at times have special needs, that it's sibblings may not have needed.  I attributed it to maybe variences in the soil, or slight pH differences...but they are differences non the less.


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## dman1234 (Feb 23, 2010)

ok so i will clarify a few things so we dont have a war on our hands,

I was assuming we were talking about removing all or most fan leaves, 
probably because i have seen a few post on this recently, if we are talking about removing dead leaves or leaves at the very bottom then thats different, i grow plants to about 3 feet and prefer to be completely bare 
on the botom 12-16 inchs so im not afraid to remove growth.

but there is a myth out there that you can cut all your fan leaves off and get better results by allowing more light to the bud, this is not correct, as we know leaves are essential to bud production.

but apparently you can smoke the leaves of a male white widow and get high also. LOL


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## ta2dguy (Feb 23, 2010)

yes dman we definitely dont want a war here.

this topic of fan leaf trimming has caused alot of interest. in my own opinion they are needed as much as any other part of the plant, they are the engine that runs the plant. there is a fuel/air (nute/oxygen) mixture taken into the leaves (engine) via the fuel lines(roots) and when it gets to the leaves the light/sun is the spark that turns the fuel into the energy required to drive(grow) the plant. how can a car run without an engine? how can a plant grow without leaves? .... same question?   

right now i have a number of plants on the go and am going to take a number of clones and dedicate them to this myth. i have got some things to take care of here before any busting will be done but it will take time for the clones to get rooted and growing. i will try to be as professional and thorough as possible and will be asking for help,ideas and suggestions along the way to make sure that all angles are covered.  happy growing.


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## Raz & Nicky (Feb 24, 2010)

Another 2 cents from us ....

We read that an increase in nitrogen at the early veg stage and having the lights at 16/8 with low temp will increase the chances of your plants being fem....So we feed em some nitro,lawn food (heavily diluted)
B4 anyone gets the noose out we are just awaiting them plants to show sex.....The seeds are a dom hindu kush/sat/indica mix that we made ourselves in spain..

They are a week into veg right now.....We'll be happy to post if it works..And post a detailed feed schedule...


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## ta2dguy (Feb 24, 2010)

damn, i was just getting the noose ready too   lol.  great stuff r + n, that is exactly the combination of curiosity and determination required here. i am very interested in the results you get for that. well documented with a few pics and voila  no more curiosity or need to listen to ill advice cuz the facts will be right there . thanks for coming back with your 2 cents but is it 2 cents each for a total of 4 or are you just throwing in 1 cent worth each lol . just kidding. thanks again.



> They are a week into veg right now.....We'll be happy to post if it works..And post a detailed feed schedule...


...

please dont just post if it works, post it if it doesnt work as well. that is the main point of this thread is to get together all information, positive and negative.   the reason for this as well is it may give someone else a starting point or some valuable information that they need when they decide to give it a try .


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## EsC420PoT (Feb 24, 2010)

I think this is an awesome  idea!! Iv always stuck to a repetitive  grow cycle, mainly because  once I found a process that satisfied me, I was afraid to try new thing in fear of failing and wasting time... This way people like me can get different strategies and info  without going through alot of trouble. Good thinkin Ta2!!!


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## ta2dguy (Feb 25, 2010)

well i had an absolutely horrible day yesterday and today dont look any better. long story short.... landlords are re-assessing the house and need access(along with an appraiser from the bank) to the house on friday afternoon. i was notified of this yesterday afternoon leaving me 48 hours to tear down and relocate everything i have going on right now .  this consists of a 10x10 flower room just emptied and being renovated, 2  4x4 staging/sexing/play  rooms and a  4x8 mother/cloning/seedling room full of all those.  needless to say it was a long day yesterday and i think a longer one today .  i will have everything back in and running by friday night/saturday morning. then i am going to start on my journey of putting the myths to the test .  i have 35 seedlings right now that i was doing a feeding test on but  will start it over after this inconvenience. right now i have to go clean up a bit and get the house ready.

 it is nice to see some interest in this thread and i hope there is more to come. so far the most prominant myths are early feeding of seedlings, early removal of healthy fan leaves, and another good one is different veg. + flowering times i.e. 24/7 veg cycle  vs.  18/6   or  a 12/12 flowering cycle  vs.  a 15/10 cycle. 

anyway, my time is gone for the next couple days but i will be back to finish what i started.  happy growing.


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## Chewbongo (Feb 25, 2010)

man that is very sad to hear, im sorry for ure troubles.

My first grow i cut leafs of constantly,i knew nothing of growning,still dont know much, my plant never got over 16 inches tall and produceced maybe 5 grams, lmfao
Im on my second grow with the same set up and havent cut any leafs unless they looked unhealthy,i have thre plants all over 3 ft and doing a beautiful job of budding, well atleast to me they are


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## BBFan (Feb 25, 2010)

ChewbacaKz said:
			
		

> Im on my second grow with the same set up and havent cut any leafs unless they looked unhealthy,i have thre plants all over 3 ft and *doing a beautiful job of budding, well atleast to me they are*


 
And that's all that really matters!

Congratulations on your improving skills!


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## Chewbongo (Feb 25, 2010)

Thank u very much.My first two grows were just some bagseed. Just got some super skunk, orange bud, and pure afghani seeds yesterday, gonna start them tomorro i think


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## legalize_freedom (Feb 25, 2010)

Hey Ta2....man sorry to hear about your troubles...at least it was fixable!  Could have been worse...you could have had a flower room full, and stuff hanging from the rafters drying!


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## ta2dguy (Feb 25, 2010)

hey chewey, thanks for stopping in and thanks for the info. i am glad things got better this time around for you. i am sure that they will get better next time by the sounds of the seeds . feel free to post that kinda info anytime too 

bbfan got it on the nose right there,  *improving your skills*   i like to see that in others as well as myself. thanks for the interest bb.

lf, you are right, it could be worse.... it could always be worse. even though the trouble i have to go through right now sucks soooo bad it is ok cuz i try to look for the positives. my space gets a great cleaning and i can now finish my grow with a nice clean area and start the next one the same way .  it needed a good cleaning so this gave me the kick in the arse that i needed. my only concern is the stress on the girls cuz they are gonna spend half a day out in a shed without lights or heat but i cant do anything about it right now. they are 6 weeks into flower right now and a couple strains have only a week to 10 days to finish and the others still have 3 and more weeks to go.

 once back in the house and reset up and once the flower room renovations are done i will get back to playing with these tests.


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## monkeybusiness (Feb 25, 2010)

Right on! I seem to always seem to learn something invaluable when i'm experimenting


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## ta2dguy (Feb 27, 2010)

ok, after a boatload of work and a little stress the storm is over. today i am setting all that i can back up and gonna try to finish the reno's on the flower room. over the past couple days all plants and seedlings have gone through some light schedule stress and enviroment change stress and so on so i cannot continue with the seedling test right now. i will do the feeding seedlings test next seed run. right now i am going to focus on the reorganization of my spaces. over the next couple days i will be set back up and ready to go. i am going to be cutting clones soon so i think i will prep for some fan leave removal testing and get a bunch of identical clones ready for that. i am also going to do some light tests on some clones, mostly different light schedules and their effect on quantity and quality. i just stopped in quick to get away from all the setting back up . happy growing.


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## EsC420PoT (Feb 28, 2010)

ta2dguy said:
			
		

> well i had an absolutely horrible day yesterday and today dont look any better. long story short.... landlords are re-assessing the house and need access(along with an appraiser from the bank) to the house on friday afternoon. i was notified of this yesterday afternoon leaving me 48 hours to tear down and relocate everything i have going on right now .  this consists of a 10x10 flower room just emptied and being renovated, 2  4x4 staging/sexing/play  rooms and a  4x8 mother/cloning/seedling room full of all those.  needless to say it was a long day yesterday and i think a longer one today .  i will have everything back in and running by friday night/saturday morning. then i am going to start on my journey of putting the myths to the test .  i have 35 seedlings right now that i was doing a feeding test on but  will start it over after this inconvenience. right now i have to go clean up a bit and get the house ready.
> 
> it is nice to see some interest in this thread and i hope there is more to come. so far the most prominant myths are early feeding of seedlings, early removal of healthy fan leaves, and another good one is different veg. + flowering times i.e. 24/7 veg cycle  vs.  18/6   or  a 12/12 flowering cycle  vs.  a 15/10 cycle.
> 
> anyway, my time is gone for the next couple days but i will be back to finish what i started.  happy growing.


Ey man sorry to hear bout that ta2. I would have been pissed!! Hope your babies dont get to much dmg. And for the feeding seedlings and unrooted clones, they  will die... Iv done it before and had to fight my bro lol. But then again mabey I fed em to much, so I don't wanna cliam to have busted that myth...


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## ta2dguy (Feb 28, 2010)

> Ey man sorry to hear bout that ta2. I would have been pissed!!


...

i am not pissed at all esc, they would have given me more notice if they could but it was what it was. they are aware of what i do here and have no problems with it as long as i am not trying to make a profit which i am not, i am just trying to grow enough to make sure i get by and dont have to buy it(even though i think it is almost cheaper to buy it here than grow it  ) and i do alot of playing around at times as well instead of full out growing. its all good now, back in working order and time to play again.

the feeding the seedling thing is  getting more interesting because the ones i have going i had been feeding one bunch a 25% solution, one bunch a 50% solution and one bunch no nutes starting 3 days after the seed casings were shed. after 5 days i increased the fed ones by 25% each, putting them up to a 50% and a 75% solution and the others i fed none. after 3 more days i started to feed the ones the were fed no nutes a 25% solution cuz they were not looking good. half the size of the rest and getting a little "yellowy" color. so after 11 days out of the seed casing and a total of 13 days from germination they were definitely behind and lacking.
  the ones being fed a 25% solution to begin with looked good. green and happy and even after the increase to 50% after 5 days they took it well and kept a happy green color.
  the ones that started on a 50% solution had a bit of a rough look to them in the beginning. there were some curled/twisted leaves and a very dark green color. they slowly grew out of it and are now doing great at 75%(still darker green). 
  the ones fed 25% at the start are almost as big as the ones started on 50%(almost )
  i did not end up killing a seedling from too much feeding or too little(this time) but i didnt do enough variables and the testing got a little messed up so i am gonna do it all again very soon(outdoor plans) with pics and proper documenting but right now i got seedlings that show that feeding them a 25-50% starting 3 days after they shed the seed case and increasing regularly and slowly will produce seedlings that are 3 times(easy) the size of seedlings that are fed no nutes for the first 12(approx) days. 

the reason i believe that seedlings need nutes shortly after losing the seed casing is in my eyes that is the baby losing the yolk. not long after a baby is born and loses its casing, whether it is a shell or placenta it is not long after that food source is unattatched and whatever it was attatched to is crying for food. if plants could talk .... they do they just use sign language  food for thought.

i cant wait to get a new camera but till then i am going to put together a better test with more variables that i can still manage for the feeding seedlinds. i dont grow in dirt but know that a dirt test is very important to this as well  so if i cant find a dirt volunteer i am gonna have to give it a try i guess.  i have grown in dirt but with little success and alot of headache so i went hydro and have not looked back.... yet. 

it is good to be back in action and i cant wait to get this thread rolling. happy growing.:48:


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## legalize_freedom (Feb 28, 2010)

Thanks man, interesting stuff.  I have fed seedlings to at times.  It all just depends on the plant IME.  Also the medium being used plays alot to.  If I'm growing in a good rich soil like FFOF I usually don't have to feed anything for about 4 or 5 weeks.

I have killed them before to though by overfeeding...this was yrs ago when I fisrt started growing.


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## Killuminati420 (Mar 1, 2010)

nice to see a mythbusters thread  
. The most experimenting i do is LST and topping plants...but im hella still a noob at this


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## ta2dguy (Mar 1, 2010)

hey there lf, always a pleasure.  





> Also the medium being used plays alot to. If I'm growing in a good rich soil like FFOF I usually don't have to feed anything for about 4 or 5 weeks.


  that has alot to do with the starting of this thread. i got told absolutely that if i fed seedlings a 50% solution before 2-3 weeks i would kill them. my brain says seedlings started in soil get nutes as soon as the roots touch soil..... hmmmmmm.  i dunno if you meant it all depends on the plant or all depends on the strain  but either way i disagree a bit(for now) cuz i had a variety of 5 different strains and there were 35 different seedlings which is 35 different plants.  i think it all depends on how much you feed them(depending on medium). that is why i need to use more variables such as amouts fed and schedules and maybe different lights too. please keep stopping in lf and giving a little, as i said before it is always a pleasure.

hey killu, how are you doing? thanks for stopping in and hopefully this thread can be useful to you at sometime.  i love the "lst  vs.  non lst" test  or  to  top  or not to top  question.  i will guarantee you that they will be put to the test in this thread.

 happy growing.


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## surreptitious (Mar 2, 2010)

i also have an opinion on the subject.  i wrote this in another thread on this forum:

"i just read an article in the Jan/Feb 2010 edition of Urban Garden that's called The 'Sweet Zone' - Pruning Indoor Plants for Larger Yields.

the "Sweet Zone" is defined as not too near and not to far space under the grow lamp that receives the most light energy without being so close to the lamp that the heat from the lamp interferes with the plant's health and metabolism. The aim of the indoor gardening game is to shape and position your plants so that many growth tips / fruiting sites are basking in the 'sweet zone'

Whenever a plant grows (roots, stems, leaves, flowers, fruits) it takes energy. The rate of a plant's development is limited by the amount of light (energy) it receives. This energy is distributed throughout the plant in order to grow and bloom. The aim of pruning is to focus this energy to where it's most needed - the fruiting sites in the 'sweet zone'

then it talks about the 'clean-up'. if left "un-cleaned", a light loving plant grown indoors will generally produce many small, low quality fruits and flowers, especially on the lower branches. The best time for the clean up is immediately after the initial stretch in flowering, but before the plant has shown much sign of fruiting. If too much is pruned off too soon, the plant will stretch even more and become somewhat leggy. If you clean up too late, you will be removing green matter that the plant has already invested a lot of energy into, some of which will be small fruits or flowers. The later you prune into the flowering stage, the more the plant is focusing its energy on generative growth instead of fruits. A good rule of thumb is to "clean up" the plant in the second week of flowering just as the first smalls signs of fruit appear and after the plant has stretched a little.

There is a fine line between pruning off too much and ending up with a very sparse canopy and a loss in yield, and leaving too much on an lowering the size and quality of the fruits.

Generally, I'm trying to prune off all branches lower than halfway up the plant. As the plants start to flower you should be able to crouch down and peer right through your garden underneath the dense canopy, but i've heard of people keeping only the top 3 nodes and cleaning up the rest.

not only will this focus the light energy on the tops making bigger, better quality fruits, but it also allows for better circulation throughout the garden.

while this article was not written about marijuana specifically, it's logic is sound to me.

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/foru...t=50787&page=3
here is my latest batch of clones that have been in flower for about 10 days and you can see how i'm doing it. my last batch of clones that i flowered got over 5 ft tall after the stretch. i have done some LST training on these guys, used bushmaster to reduce the space between the nodes (most of the tops it's hard to see the stem between the nodes, that's how close they got, i'll try to take a picture tomorrow to show how close they are) and put them into flower after they were only about 12 inches tall or so."


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## ta2dguy (Mar 3, 2010)

thanks alot surreptitious. articles and studies like that make me think alot about what will benefit the plants most. i am still going to give trimming fan leaves off a test but i think  i know how the tests will pan out.

i am going to start a small test again on the early feeding of seedlings but want to do it as fair and right as i can so i wil ask for a little help from everyone to come up with some variables i can use.
 i am going to use 5 groups of seedlings that are started in 1" rockwool cubes and transferred to 4" blocks after they have popped. i am going to start feeding them 3 days after they shed the seed casing. group 1 will get no nutes(for a period of 14-21 days), group 2 will get a 10% nutrient solution, group 3  a 25% solution. group 4 a 50% solution and group 5 will get a 100% solution. they will all get fed at the same time and they will get fed by hand for 2 weeks and then put into an auto feed setup. i am going to divide the 5 groups each in half and use a different nutrient solution on those. each group will consist of 8 seedlings, 4 fed one solution and 4 fed another. this i think is a good starting point and i am open to other input and suggestions. gotta go hit the vaporiser right now but i will be back .


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## The Hemp Goddess (Mar 3, 2010)

If you are going to do experiments on nuting your babies, we need EC or PPM readings, rather than saying you are using 25% or 50%--those figures really do not tell us anything.  Can you report your PPMs?


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## Droopy Dog (Mar 3, 2010)

ta2dguy said:
			
		

> ...
> the reason i believe that seedlings need nutes shortly after losing the seed casing is in my eyes that is the baby losing the yolk. not long after a baby is born and loses its casing, whether it is a shell or placenta it is not long after that food source is unattatched and whatever it was attatched to is crying for food. if plants could talk .... they do they just use sign language  food for thought.



The seed casing is just that, a casing.  The COTYLEDONS are the yolk or placenta or whatever you want to call it and supplies seedlings with everything they need.

When those fall off, THEN it is time to start very mild nutes.

DD


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## ta2dguy (Mar 4, 2010)

hi there hemp goddess, good to see you here. i agree with you that there should be ppm readings and i will provide those when i start. it will be good to use ppm's cuz there may be a big difference between the 2 brands. 25% of one solution  probably wont have the same ppm's as 25% of another. it would of course be optimal to have a ppm reading for each specific nutrient in each solution but until then i will give a ppm reading for each solution mix as well as the ppm reading of the water i start with. i appreciate the input THG. it is little things like that that can easily get overlooked and i in no way would call these absolute scientific experiments that anyone should base their own decisions on but i would like to keep them thorough enough to maybe give some experienced guidance to some and to start a bit of controversy with others .

thanks droopydog, all input appreciated.  so you are saying that i should wait until the little round set of leaves that appear first drop off? you dont htink there is a stage before that where there may be signifigant growth benefits if a certain amount of nutrient solution is introduced.  i am doing this test in hydro, not soil. there will be no nutes available at all till introduced manually(except for whats in the water). what do you think is a good starting solution after the leaves fall? i dunno, i think that is waiting too long.....but i will find out .

i am going to add another group to the test. it will be a group of seedlings that will get fed nothing but water until the little round set of leaves falls off then i will use a light solution for feeding(i will wait and use what droopydog says to if it is ok with him/her).

this is the kinda info and questions i was hoping for. thanks to all for your help so far. im not far along yet but appreciate the help. happy growing.


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## kal el (Mar 4, 2010)

I grow in a lil tub with all the plants crammed together.
I average 7 grams per plant. When I started chopping the large fans off, the yields increased due to more light actually hitting the buds. I increased my yield per plant up to 10.5 grams, that is a 50% increase.
I can sit and argue about it all day. Google a fellow named jrosek, he advocates this style of growing and his grows will show you.


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## Droopy Dog (Mar 4, 2010)

ta2dguy said:
			
		

> thanks droopydog, all input appreciated.  so you are saying that i should wait until the little round set of leaves that appear first drop off? you dont htink there is a stage before that where there may be signifigant growth benefits if a certain amount of nutrient solution is introduced.  i am doing this test in hydro, not soil. there will be no nutes available at all till introduced manually(except for whats in the water). what do you think is a good starting solution after the leaves fall? i dunno, i think that is waiting too long.....but i will find out .
> 
> i am going to add another group to the test. it will be a group of seedlings that will get fed nothing but water until the little round set of leaves falls off then i will use a light solution for feeding(i will wait and use what droopydog says to if it is ok with him/her)..



I'm a him and it's fine by me.  I grow in soil though, actually a soil less mix that I make myself.  Hydro is a whole different ball of wax.

As to strength, perhaps you could do some in 1/8, 1/4, perhaps 1/2 strength?

I just do seeds every now and then.  Once I have a strain I like, I stay with that and do clones and very seldom run more than 1 strain at the time.

I'm trying to think back (been close to 2 years), if the cotyledons had actually dropped, but for sure, there were no nutes added till after 3 sets of true leaves.

DD


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## ta2dguy (Mar 5, 2010)

kal el, that does not sound unreasonable to me at all . that sounds awesome actually. im not gonna argue with ya, im gonna give it a try and hope that i can get that much increase but will be happy with a 10 or 20% increase on overall yield. thanks for sharing that cuz i like the sounds of that. i dont grow them small so i cant say much to that with experience attached .

 droopy. i would love a recipe for your soiless mix(as long as it aint a secret  ) so i can have another medium to try things with, i am always up for a try at something that may increase my yield or quality.  i might split the last group  of seedlings into 2 with a few getting no nutes till the third set of leaves and some no nutes till the cotyledons fall off. i want to be thorough so all ideas and suggestions are welcome, even if they dont all get tried.....

 also



> As to strength, perhaps you could do some in 1/8, 1/4, perhaps 1/2 strength?


... from you

from me 



> i am going to use 5 groups of seedlings that are started in 1" rockwool cubes and transferred to 4" blocks after they have popped. i am going to start feeding them 3 days after they shed the seed casing. group 1 will get no nutes(for a period of 14-21 days), group 2 will get a 10% nutrient solution, group 3 a 25% solution. group 4 a 50% solution and group 5 will get a 100% solution. they will all get fed at the same time and they will get fed by hand for 2 weeks and then put into an auto feed setup. i am going to divide the 5 groups each in half and use a different nutrient solution on those. each group will consist of 8 seedlings, 4 fed one solution and 4 fed another. this i think is a good starting point and i am open to other input and suggestions. gotta go hit the vaporiser right now but i will be back .



this has been changed to using both a % and a ppm reading with a little help from the hemp goddess' suggestion.

happy growing.


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## legalize_freedom (Mar 5, 2010)

kal el said:
			
		

> I grow in a lil tub with all the plants crammed together.
> I average 7 grams per plant. When I started chopping the large fans off, the yields increased due to more light actually hitting the buds. I increased my yield per plant up to 10.5 grams, that is a 50% increase.
> I can sit and argue about it all day. Google a fellow named jrosek, he advocates this style of growing and his grows will show you.


 
I averaged 3 oz per plant...so your saying if I cut off my fan leaves i would have got 6 oz per plant?.....I doubt it...I doubt that I would have got the 3 0z per that I got.

If your only getting 10.5 gr per plant...I think you have alot more to worry about than leaves.

But like I always say ...to each their own!


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## Hick (Mar 5, 2010)

the "buds" _can NOT_ utilize the light..:confused2: 
it's called "photosynthesis".. >---> hxxp://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookPS.html
...or "google" it.. like chopping off your fingers and handing you a chicken leg, or placing a bowl of soup in front of you and handing you a 'fork'.. You _want_ it, _ need_ it, but just can't get it where it needs to be.


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## Droopy Dog (Mar 5, 2010)

My mix is nothing special, think Pro Mix without any added nutes.  In fact, my peat moss is from the same co that makes Pro Mix, but is only $12/3.8cf.

Just peat moss, perlite, pine bark nuggets and some dolomite lime. I used this for years for general nursery growing along with Jack's Classic (Peters back then).

Now, I'm doing a bit more organic and will be doing LC's Soiless Mix #1.  You can find this in the Organics section, a thread called MOONSHINE MIX in a post by MULTIFARIOUS.

Since I have all the major ingredients, all I had to pick up was blood, bone, and kelp meal.  My worm bin provided the castings and I have some 'cooking' now, a little over 20 gallons worth (2cf).

DD


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## ta2dguy (Mar 5, 2010)

> .. like chopping off your fingers and handing you a chicken leg, or placing a bowl of soup in front of you and handing you a 'fork'.. You want it, need it, but just can't get it where it needs to be.


.....

:rofl:  and so true. thanks hick.

i personally like to pull the big fan leaves through the stems and stalks behind the bud sites so the sites can get maximum light and the fan leaves are still around to get any light that goes past.  how much i do is also directly related to how much time i have. training and pruning a couple plants for experimenting purposes is fairly easy but trying to do it to a larger number of larger plants entails alot of work.... ALOT .

 thank you very much droopydog. appreciated. im all for mixing up a batch and doing some playing sometime with the effects of different mediums and that helps alot.

happy growing.


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## kal el (Mar 5, 2010)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> I averaged 3 oz per plant...so your saying if I cut off my fan leaves i would have got 6 oz per plant?.....I doubt it...I doubt that I would have got the 3 0z per that I got.
> 
> If your only getting 10.5 gr per plant...I think you have alot more to worry about than leaves.
> 
> But like I always say ...to each their own!


 
Maybe if you would have read it better, I stated that I grow sog style in tubs. Your style is obviously different if you get 3 oz a plant, and if you double that yield it would be 100% improvement and not 25 to 50% as I did. 20+ years of growing and I am always open to new techniques, unlike some closed minded people that tell me I am wrong without showing me any proof.


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## legalize_freedom (Mar 5, 2010)

I'm always open to new ideas...ecxpt butchering my plants...been there done that...and if your getting 10g per plant then I would call it more of a mud puddle of green...lol...not a sea...

If anything my theory is in the norm...it doesn't need to be prooved, it already has been time and time again ...takeing fans decreases yeilds.  Your buds do not need the light...your buds need your leaves to recieve the light to preform photosythesis.  

I don't have time to argue with you over this...we get this every couple of months...if you want to cut your leaves to improve your 7g to 10 g per plant  lol...well be my guest.

I have grown in sea of green, and have many friends that do, but if I was only getting 10g per plant I think I'd just save my electric and go buy a bag.

I wish you all the luck buddy...my theory is allready prooven...when your ready to proove yours I'll listen with open ears!


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## ta2dguy (Mar 6, 2010)

:holysheep:   :48:


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## Hick (Mar 6, 2010)

removing leaves is not any 'new technique',(I was tutored on the same method when I first started, some 29 years ago) and has already been debunked as a myth many times, by many growers. Including myself. 
I'm not sayin that you didn't see an improvement in yeild, but I will say that it is _doubtfull_ at best, that it was due to removal of the energy producing mechanisms. 
The FACT is, the leaves are where the photosynthesis occurs by large. Photosynthesis is THE process that produces growth/energy to grow. The flowers/buds _can not_ utilize the light to potential. Its only basic botany, science.


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## pcduck (Mar 6, 2010)

:yeahthat:

But you do what you want anyways.:laugh:


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## kal el (Mar 6, 2010)

ok, you win.


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## ta2dguy (Mar 8, 2010)

well kal-el it is too bad that you got treated this way. i was hoping that people would not come into this thread bashing away at someone elses attempts at growing this fine plant but it appears to be happening.  i myself do not doubt the words of the elders here, but i also do not doubt the words of the noobie either. i was hoping that if people were to come along and disagree with anything here that they would show up with pics and numbers and actual personal studies to prove their point instead of just saying how many times they tried or that they did it so long ago you probably were not born.

  anyway, i will ask again that if there is a disagreeance with anything here or someone has the need to bash someone elses attempts that you show up with YOUR studies and YOUR results for everyone to see and read. i know that none of what is tried here is a new way but  it is a way for a few growers to get together and share some ideas and some love for the plant.

kal-el, congrats on getting a 50% increase in your yield . i wish i could . even if it is only a few grams per crop, it is yours and no one elses and be proud of that accomplishment.  enjoy the extra you got from your work. if you do any tests or playing kal please post it here, then when someone comes along to bash away you can pull out your proof and ask for thiers lol . good luck.

i have another week or so before i start anything cuz i have too much going now and things got messed up after i had to remove and replace everything. once a little space opens up here i will get back at it.

happy growing.


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## Hick (Mar 8, 2010)

..sorry ta2d, I thought you were doing this thread to debunk, 'disprove' myths, not _promote or propogate_ them.  :confused2: 
These practices probably didn't stem from someone abusing the plant and getting negative results. Most likely all origonated from someone "mis"interpretting their results or misunderstanding "why" they recieved the results. 
I don't have "MY" results/studies, because I quit it over two decades ago. I quit it because I proved to myself it was NOT beneficial, did NOT improve potency, yeild, vigor, flowering, nor anything else. It actually stunts growth and forces the plants to form more leaves to provide for sufficient _photosynthesis_...
 I never "bashed" anyone. I simply posted scientific evidence contrary to _"the myth"_. I can find you a dozen more links to _'factual' scientific_ evidence if need be. I thought that was the goal here..."FACTS"/"TRUTH".... 
  "YOU" started a thread that is without doubt, going to recieve a multitude of  _opinions_, experiences, and theories. They aren't going to ALL coincide or agree. "I" am never going to agree that removing the leaves where the bulk of the photosynthesis is occurring, is going to "improve" or "benefit" the plant. Kal' may never agree with me. BUT.. "scientific" fact will at least allow an undecided reader to make an educated descision based on weighing the evidence.


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## ta2dguy (Mar 8, 2010)

i dunno if you always got the right to say hick (most of the times i see you do tho ) but you sure do say it well. i wish i had half the vocabulary you have and some of the puttin it together skills you got .  again you are right here... kinda . i am trying to prove whether certain things(myths) are true or not but i think they can be done without the discouragement of others. i can take all kindsa crap from anyone who wants to dish it out  but others cannot.... kinda like plants lol. i understand that there are going to be plenty of differing opinions  on just about everything in this thread i am just hoping that people will bring thier proof along with thier words. i have tested most everything over the years as well but without any proper documentation and a memory with 30 years of tokin behind it i would not expect someone to believe me on words alone unless i thought myself better than them and that they should for some reason believe in and follow my ways. i am not that guy. i hope there can be a ton of information and discussions in this thread and maybe everyone can learn something. if not i suggest there be  "this is the only way" thread started and see how the discussions go there .

i dont want to start no crap or step on toes i just wanna grow and play a little along the way. and btw, i would love to increase my yield by an average of 35% and i will do whatever it takes to get it. show me the way . SHOW me the proof.  

happy growing.


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## Hick (Mar 8, 2010)

> people will bring thier proof along with thier words.


_Scientific data_ isn't "proof"?..  


> can be done without the discouragement of others.


Posting factual evidence in contrary to someone elses 'beliefe' or opinion, isn't meant to "discourage" anyone from making their own observation or judgement. Quite the contrary. It is intended to "educate" them, so they are able to form a reasonably informed/educated opinion.
 I never "dished out" any crap to anyone. I never accused anyone of "purposely" misleading or lying about their results. ALL that I have done, is posted "my" experience along with scientific evidence to support it.. Anyone is free to "prove" it incorrect. BUT, mind you, they will also be trying to dis-prove botanical science.


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## pcduck (Mar 8, 2010)

Some/Most myths have a bit of truth behind them, misinformation has none.

The trimming of leaves to improve yields is misinformation, not a myth. IMO


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## ta2dguy (Mar 8, 2010)

ok, scientific data is proof. lets see the scientific data that you have from your own tests that prove or disprove the theory. as i said before i hoped this would not become the kinda thread that people just throw out quotes from books or tell how it is cuz science dictates or share their experiences without the proof. i would like to see the numbers and pics of your testing, that is what this thread is for. SHOW me how and why it worked for you. SHOW  me the pics of the 6 plants that had various amounts of fan leaves removed so i(and everyone else) can make a reasonable, informed and educated decision.  i know very well that a plant needs its leaves to grow a certain way in nature. i dont know that nature intended the plant to grow the biggest fattest buds it can like i want it to. i am not sure that the selective removal of a certain number of fan leaves wont make the plant grow the way i want it to and not the way nature intended. no one here has yet to show the studies that prove it doesnt work  but there are alot of people ready to say it doesnt work for various reasons. someone once said that the plant need a rest period and not to grow it on a 24/7 light cycle and then 20 somethin years later he changes his mind and then says that he cant find any data or reasoning not to grow them on a 24/7 light cycle.  you would think that a plant would perform better under natural conditions but apparently not.

anyway, things are starting heat up again   i love it.i am going back to the volcano for a blast. happy growing to everyone.


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## Hick (Mar 8, 2010)

..I mucked it up 20 years ago and _learned_ my lesson. To repeat it would be pretty stupid "IMO".. to allow others to repeat my experience without at least attempting to point them in the 'right' direction, would be irresponsible. 
I should wreck a current grow in an attempt to "prove" to you, what I already know???.. 
I think it was the famous cowboy philosopher Will Rogers once said it best.. _"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves."_.....


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## pcduck (Mar 8, 2010)

After so much scientific data is accumulated supporting the idea,  it just becomes fact. Without the need to supply data each time the subject is discussed. Just like a tongue on a frozen metal pole, we know it will stick to the pole without having to prove it every time.


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## legalize_freedom (Mar 8, 2010)

Ta2...I was not bashing, I was trying to keep any newbies from getting some bogus info.  I'm sorry that it took place in your thread, but I'm not going to let a comment go by unchecked that may end up being detrimental to new growers.

When someone makes a statement that cutting leaves gave them a 30-50% increase in yeild....well, I feel obligated to say that their increase in yeild more than likely stemmed from some other factor...and not from trimming leaves.  I would have left it at that except that someone else decided they wanted to argue the point...which is fine, it just happened to be here in your thread.  Like I said I'm sorry that it took place here, and I was in no way bashing anyone...I was stateing facts for any new growers to not make similar mistakes I have made.

As far as proof....I'm not about to cut leaves off my plants to proove to anyone that it is harmful.  I have pics of my plants unmolested on this site, in fact there is a link to them here in my sig.  I'll leave the takeing off of leaves to the new growers, who for some reason feel the need to do it even when people who have tried it and say it doesn't work tell them not to.  My guess is that when your dealing with yeilds so minute to begin with it would be hard not to get a 50% improvement...at least I would hope.  But the increase did not come from takeing leaves.

I'll leave your thread alone now, as I'm not willing to put my plants under less than optimal conditions...to proove things that have already been prooven time and time again.  I learned from mistakes, and watching others make mistakes...not intentionally harming plants to see why, or how things work


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## ta2dguy (Mar 8, 2010)

hick, thank you for your understanding here dealing with a stubborn mule such as myself. i am a little bull headed sometimes and have stated before that i am a bit of a devils advocate but fully enjoy a good discussion without arguments.


> I don't have "MY" results/studies, because I quit it over two decades ago. I quit it because I proved to myself it was NOT beneficial, did NOT improve potency, yeild, vigor, flowering, nor anything else. It actually stunts growth and forces the plants to form more leaves to provide for sufficient photosynthesis...


  thanks for this as well. i understand that having results for studies that long ago is absurd and i want to say i was not aiming the SHOW me the proof  attitude at you directly i was putting it out there in hopes that someone has the records for the study. i believe everyone here that states they have tried it and dont doubt what they say but i also once a long time ago had a fella tell me that there was this type of marijuana plant that flowered under almost any light cycle as long as it was longer than 12/12 because a regular flowering cycle would ruin the plant. can you believe it!!! i think he called it an autoflowering something or other lol. it was very hard to believe that guy 12 years ago but it aint so hard to now. i dont know where im going with this so im gonna stop lol.

LF, you dont need to leave the thread alone. i fully appreciate everything you got to say. i just thought maybe you were a bit tuff on kal with things like...





> I'm always open to new ideas...ecxpt butchering my plants...been there done that...and if your getting 10g per plant then I would call it more of a mud puddle of green...lol...not a sea...


.  now that person put all they had into growing what they got and you come along and make it sound like they should almost be ashamed of their grow . i personally dont care if you got a 2 plant micro grow going or 25  3 pound plants finishing i am gonna be happy for you and try to raise your spirits a bit especially if you somehow increased your yield by 50%. i know you meant no harm(i hope) with these words but like i said before some people dont have thick skin .  and this





> I wish you all the luck buddy...my theory is allready prooven...when your ready to proove yours I'll listen with open ears!


... he was trying to tell you but i dont think the ears were open very far. also if you have any records of your studies they would be greatly beneficial to this thread as well as greatly appreciated.

duck... 





> After so much scientific data is accumulated supporting the idea, it just becomes fact. Without the need to supply data each time the subject is discussed.


 this is the problem, i am not sure if there is enough data and recorded testing in this thread to prove anything one way or the other. i want to see the results in front of me from any and all theories.

i am also without a doubt gonna try pissing on the electric fence unless i see the results with my own eyes.... there was a mythbusters eisode on this and it will not harm you to piss on the fence   you would think it would but it wont .  edited.... the episode is more about peeing on the third rail of the subway but is basically the same thing sorry.

great discussion i think. thanks to everyone and lets try to keep it cool in here please . happy growing.


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## pcduck (Mar 8, 2010)

> i am not sure if there is enough data and recorded testing in this thread to prove anything one way or the other.



I will quote my previous post.




> After so much scientific data is accumulated supporting the idea, it just becomes fact. Without the need to supply data each time the subject is discussed.


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## Hick (Mar 8, 2010)

well now I gotta go pee on that fence .. but you can forget that "third rail"..


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## legalize_freedom (Mar 8, 2010)

ta2...if you re-read the the thread, I was more than polite until I was told that I needed to read better, and that I was close minded because I disagreed, and didn't show proof of my experiments from 20 yrs ago.

I have no proof... the home computer was the thing of the future when I was doing these experiments...so I'm sorry that I can't offer better proof.  I'm not about to do them again to have proof, like Hick said that would be silly of me to sacrifice my grow for something that I have already experienced. 

If I came across as tuff on him...well I apologize...maybe my skin isn't thick enough to handle being told I need to read better, or that I'm close minded. All I was trying to tell the guy was that if he had an increase in yeild it was more than likely not from chopping leaves...but if you want to make me into the bad guy...well I'm cool with that.  Look back though...I did not bite until bitten.  Unless we need to sugar coat everything to make sure we don't hurt anyones feelings...all I said was the truth.  I don't see you defending me against his attack on me???  Lol...not that I want or need it...maybe I should just give everyone an atta boy everytime they produce a little bud...I don't want to risk hurting someones feelings with the truth....lol...it's a good thing my teachers aren't here...everyone would be getting called dumb f and other derogitory names....they certainly didn't sugar coat things to protect my thin skin.  I didn't think I was out of line...I know I didn't say anything belittleing until it was said to me...and when I said it...it was still facts. 

Good luck with your thread.


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## ta2dguy (Mar 9, 2010)

duck, thanks again. i might have been a little high trying to explain myself. thanks for reexplaining it to me lol. the problem is there is not actual factual recorded data that i can find anywhere on this site to bring to this thread. i can find alot of " i did it, didnt work" and "been there, done that"'s  but to find the actual studies is hard,  maybe you can find some for me and bring it here? keep hanging around duck, i like your style.

hick, funny as always and thanks. yeah thats me at the fence already, pull up a piece of standing room and fire away lol.

lf, my sincerest apologies to you. i understand now a bit more as to why your response was so uncharacteristic of you. getting told you should read more after the years of experience you have had does not feel good. i have had it happen to me since i showed up at this site as well. you are right, i shoulda read the thread a bit better and again i apologize for my reaction .

kal el, i hope you are still testing and keeping records. i would like to see more from you on this if you got it.

happy growing.


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## pcduck (Mar 9, 2010)

ta2dguy there has been so many noobs that have picked/cut/ removed there leaves on this site and have asked for help after wards that it is not even funny. Do a search or check the archives.:aok:

But if you insist I will watch as you gather data trying to prove us wrong:aok:
I do not need to destroy my garden to prove something that has been common knowledge for a long time.



> i can find alot of " i did it, didnt work"



That is what we have been trying to tell you..it does not work.
You are seeking an answer that is not there because it does not work.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Mar 9, 2010)

You might want to pick up and read Clarke's "Marijuana Botany".  Most of us (that have grown for upteen years) feel like there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.  While you may not find "proof" _here_ that picking fan leaves off is bad, it is a biological fact, and there are plenty of scientific studies that show this.


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## Droopy Dog (Mar 9, 2010)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> You might want to pick up and read Clarke's "Marijuana Botany".  Most of us (that have grown for upteen years) feel like there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.  While you may not find "proof" _here_ that picking fan leaves off is bad, it is a biological fact, and there are plenty of scientific studies that show this.


:yeahthat: :yeahthat: :yeahthat: 

That book should be required reading for anyone growing mj.

Most won't because it's not a 'how to' book and can get a bit technical. OK, a lot technical. 

Mine is missing the front cover from so much use and it is my most refered to book by a long shot even after 25+ years.

DD


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## legalize_freedom (Mar 9, 2010)

I agree it should be mandatory...and to me it is a how to book.  If you don't understand how the plant grows, works, functions, etc...you will not understand why you need certain things certain ways...lol...does that make sense?

I think most don't even want to read a book...lol...they want to throw a seed in dirt, add water and smoke it.


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## Droopy Dog (Mar 9, 2010)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> I agree it should be mandatory...and to me it is a how to book.  If you don't understand how the plant grows, works, functions, etc...you will not understand why you need certain things certain ways...lol...does that make sense?
> 
> I think most don't even want to read a book...lol...they want to throw a seed in dirt, add water and smoke it.



Well, yes.  It is a how to book, you just have to read between the lines to get the how to part.  Or, by understanding, like you said, how the plant grows, works and functions.

LOL ... Yeah, most would rather just throw a seed in the dirt and the ask the same questions that have been asked 100 times a week for step by step instructions, rather than searching, or even reading the stickys that have 99% of all the answers. 

DD


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## ta2dguy (Mar 9, 2010)

i have read and reread clarkes, ed's, jorges etc. i agree that there should be mandatory books for reading if you are gonna grow mj. i dont need to do any tests and am not trying to reinvent the wheel or weed im just playing around. as the hemp goddess says ....





> Most of us (that have grown for upteen years) feel like there is no reason to reinvent the wheel.


... well i am not like most i guess lol. i have a certain gratitude for all the people before me that did the testing and in no way do i try to disrespect their work. i am not a pioneer by any means and dont claim to be anything but a guy trying to find a way to increase his yield/quality a little. i dont think taking fan leaves off early will increase yield but until i do the tests i wont know, i still think there may be a selective pruning method that may help but till i try it...??  lol.  i am glad there is alot of experienced attention gathering here, once we all move past the fan leave issue  iam sure i will gain all sorts of new knowledge from you guys... and ladies. there are alot of things i want and need to try and honestly the fan leaf issue is not on the top of my list and i dont think i said anywhere that i do believe that removal will increase yields, just stirring up a bit of knowledge .

 i got a question.  has anyone grown some plants side by side and using lst on some and none on the rest? clones growing in same medium using same nutes and feeding scedule etc. the only difference being some were tied down and some were not. i would like to go down that road if its ok with everyone .

happy growing.


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## Jericho (Mar 9, 2010)

I noticed that no noob dared to put his word into this so i shall try. I understand hick, LF, hemp goddess in them thinking that there are basics that everyone should know. Me my self have done allot of research to get to know what i know. and now i am waiting for my things on order. But before i started reading i was as dumb as a brick about growing. 

I never took biology or chemistry, We never had the choice to. so allot of these basic common things that you know we do not. you have years of experience on all us newbies. And we all look up to you to give us the advice when we need it and appreciate it very much.

But some of us do have to see things with there own eyes to believe it. Me my self i stuck a seed in a plant pot with one 20w floro after reading non stop that in no way was there enough light. the poor thing stretched for a couple weeks and then gave in n fell over. But i would never dream of even poping another seed until my hps lights are here because i saw that it wouldnt work. 

Some people run on blind faith. I mean gees look at any war started by religion. science has been trying to prove that wrong for years but still people dont listen and continue to believe in it. 

I'm just saying that it doesn't always work just saying things sometimes people need to be shown. i hope no one minds my input its just that there have been to many fights on this forum recently. 

Happy Growing all.


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## Killuminati420 (Mar 9, 2010)

im actualy doing that right now lol, i took most fan leaves off my BlackJack#2 to let all the branches get direct light to promote that X-mas tree shape and see how it turns out.(mainly because they were all nesty)

i also tied down BJ#1 so it has a more even canopy, and left BJ#3 & 4 alone.
theyre all next to eachother and getting treated the same way.
 the links in my signature if you wanna check it out


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## Killuminati420 (Mar 9, 2010)

i was responding to Ta2dguy's post but jericho beat me to it


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## Hick (Mar 9, 2010)

I don't think anyone is trying to discouraging experimentation, if you wish. But simply avoiding a nube confusing those "experiments" with solid, proven grow information. 



> i got a question. has anyone grown some plants side by side and using lst on some and none on the rest? clones growing in same medium using same nutes and feeding scedule etc. the only difference being some were tied down and some were not. i would like to go down that road if its ok with everyone .


ALL things the same...
Here's what "I" found. The lst plant will 'usually' yeild _slightly_ more, indoors at least. And the reason can be explained scientifically. 
The lst plant recieves more "even" distribution of light over a larger, more even canopy. Allowing for a more uniform production over the entire plant.. 
You'll get slightly more weight, but no big, main cola, and fewer tiny, wispy, popcorn buds...."IME"


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## ta2dguy (Mar 9, 2010)

hey jericho, thanks for stopping in. i hope that no one is afraid to post something here. 





> I'm just saying that it doesn't always work just saying things sometimes people need to be shown. i hope no one minds my input its just that there have been to many fights on this forum recently.


.... there is no fight here and i figure there wont be. fights(and not just here) usually start when someone NEEDS to be right and tries to force their opinion and ways on someone else.i like to think this would be the place we all are sitting down in comfy chairs, smoking a fatty of our own grown pride and joy (sharing of course) discussing our different views on things. no forced opinions, no drama and faces to read instead of words.  i give you credit for taking a step in .... gonna step up to the electric fence too .

killu, thanks for coming by with some input. i have not gone through all of your signatures grows yet but will as soon as i am done this post. i wanna see how that  christmas tree look turns out.

hick, i appreciate your knowledge and ability to express it. thanks for your input and help with this thread.  





> Here's what "I" found. The lst plant will 'usually' yeild slightly more, indoors at least. And the reason can be explained scientifically.
> The lst plant recieves more "even" distribution of light over a larger, more even canopy. Allowing for a more uniform production over the entire plant..
> You'll get slightly more weight, but no big, main cola, and fewer tiny, wispy, popcorn buds...."IME"


....  also my experience, and i mean exactly the same opinion based on my own experiments. i have no records or data or pics right now but will after i do it again. i am not gonna try to prove anything right or wrong out of this  i am just going to do it so i can have records for my own use later.  it would be nice to know an average increase over a set number of plants and it would be nice to do a test on outdoor plants as well.

happy growing.


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## dman1234 (Mar 9, 2010)

is anyone shocked that a bunch of potheads dont have hard data to support their experiments,

                                  :rofl: :rofl:


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## the chef (Mar 9, 2010)

Lst in different stages grown with two untrianed grown in one tent: www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=51659


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## ta2dguy (Mar 10, 2010)

> is anyone shocked that a bunch of potheads dont have hard data to support their experiments,


.... no dman i am not. 

chef, thanks. sometimes a few pics helps out alot. congrats on the mvp as well. a well deserved position for ya chef.

i say that pictures of anything we discuss here would be awesome cuz i am the kinda person that believes in half of what he sees, and none of what he hears  lol. the other half i do believe in are the things i have tried. .  all input and discussions are appreciated. thanks.

happy growing.


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## pcduck (Mar 10, 2010)

dman1234 said:
			
		

> is anyone shocked that a bunch of potheads dont have hard data to support their experiments,
> 
> :rofl: :rofl:






> Clarke's "Marijuana Botany"



This is hard data ^^^^^^^^^^:doh:


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## umbra (Mar 10, 2010)

ta2dguy said:
			
		

> .... no dman i am not.
> 
> chef, thanks. sometimes a few pics helps out alot. congrats on the mvp as well. a well deserved position for ya chef.
> 
> ...



I have been reading this post since it was first published. When I first started growing, the internet did not exist. So when you had a question, there was no one to help. With that in mind, it makes sense to find the answers to questions you have. In my case, I read whatever I could get my hands on. And I grew and grew, learning along the way. Part of this is just ...my nature. I'm a scientist, research is what I do. A skeptic of the nth degree. I tell people I'm from Missouri (the show me state).
Well I have found that very few people really want to know, what I know. Whether it is about growing cannabis, existentialist philosophy, or quantum physics. What they want is someone to agree with them, regardless of what it is about. So again I point you in the direction of research, and say again...it has already been done. Much of it is already here, it is scattered about, but its here. 
At this site, as well as many others...people come and go. Some leave valuable info and then for 1 reason or another leave. They are not going to post in your thread, but the info they have left is still here. If you want to know, what they knew...no one is going to hand it you on a silver platter. You will have to search for it. Yeah I know the database is a wreck right now, I've been searching for a few things as well. But imo this is best addressed at the admin level.


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## legalize_freedom (Mar 10, 2010)

ta2, my last grow was lst, I did them all so that I wasn't haveing to put some up on milk crates and what not to keep an even canopy.  To me the main reason for trying LST was to get the most out of my small space, so I tried lst, and shaped my plants so that they had multiple tops covering the whole of my space.

This time around I'm using clones that vegged for close to the same amount of time, but I did not do any last on them, I have kept them all at the same height either through supercropping, or topping.  I have 10 instead of 6, but my canopy is filled all the same...so I expect that my space will produce close to the same from these untrained plants...but I will let you know, in 8 weeks.

I may have some varience though because I did replace bulbs this round, and I'm also trying my hand at organics this time....so we will see what comes of it.  IME your only able to pull in the weight of what your lights, environment and genetics will allow you to.  Every mistake that we make throws a wrench in what that final weight will be.  But my space, lighting and genetics will dictate the amount I will be able to produce weather I fill that space with 4 big plants or 10 smaller plants.  Now using old bulbs, or overfeeding once, or letting heat get out of control...these are all things that will take away from my final yeild, regardless of the size of my plants, or how they were trained.

I don't think you will find many that have done lst right next to non lst plants for the simple fact that they would be makeing an uneven canopy, and that is the whole reason for doing that work IMO is to maximize your space to recieve the light.


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## ta2dguy (Mar 12, 2010)

umbra, i am sorry for being so bull headed but it is my nature. when i first started the thread i asked that if people were going to come in and try to press their opinion and ways in this thread that they bring the results of their own testing as proof.  not someone elses tests, not quoting from a book or if there are quotes from a book to give page numbers and other references not just say it is in there somewhere.  i did not ask for anything on a silver platter but i do want people to bring their own  tried tested and true methods to the table. i have searched alot of things on this site and some stuff there is nothing on it  or if it is there  i cant find it. one more reason for this thread is so i dont have to spend alot of time searching and hunting, it will be right here for me to find.  thanks for your time and help umbra, i do appreciate it.

LF, awesome stuff man. that is a great post. thanks so much for continuing to come here and bring your wisdom and experience. it is definitely appreciated.

thanks to everyone for their time, help and patience.

happy growing.


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## umbra (Mar 12, 2010)

Ta2d I get it. But the answers in this post are no different than the answers in all the posts that you can not find. Unless the post is continually updated it will be lost in the archives. It would need to be made into a sticky. Unfortunately, it is what happens to all postings eventually. I'm not trying to give you a hard time... But if you do the research yourself, and not rely on others that you may or may not trust, then its not an issue. But when you ask for others info, but with stipulations...well I dont think you are going to be finding what you are looking for. IMO it doesn't work that way.


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