# Debating on something advice wanted.



## tashido (May 19, 2009)

This all goes to what you prefer of course but.
I've seen alot of aero , hydro , and like drip systems.
Overall , What would be the easiest to maintin still having good results.
I can build just about anything , However im lacking the Pump so also what are some good brands/sizes for a lets say 10-15 plant set-up.
Probably SOG.


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## StoneyBud (May 19, 2009)

tashido said:
			
		

> This all goes to what you prefer of course but.
> I've seen alot of aero , hydro , and like drip systems.
> Overall , What would be the easiest to maintin still having good results.
> I can build just about anything , However im lacking the Pump so also what are some good brands/sizes for a lets say 10-15 plant set-up.
> Probably SOG.


My personal favorite is Ebb and Flow.

I get my system cleaned up and filled with fresh nutes for vegging the seedlings and from that point until harvest, I do nothing but refill the reservoir with whatever ratio is best for the current stage of the crop.

I have it sized to prevent the need for ever changing out the nutes. The refilling keeps it fresh. The oldest solution in my reservoir is no more than 6 days old, because 1/6th of it is replaced each day.

The plants love it also.


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## tashido (May 19, 2009)

got some pics or a diy?
I duno anything bout makin ebb an flow.
Didnt rlly find any useful tutos.
Was thinking misting pvc pipe but ehh seems it wont forgive you at all lol


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## The Hemp Goddess (May 19, 2009)

IMO, the easiest and most trouble free hydro is DWC.  You need a reservoir, an air pump, and some air stones--no water pumps to overheat the nute solution, no sprayers to clog and fail, no timer failures to worry about...


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 19, 2009)

I agree with THG, it was her posts that caused me to go to DWC and I could not be happier.  I used to use a flood and drain system but the pump would heat the nute solution like she said, and I found that it would clog with even the smallest amount of hydroton dust.  I find an air pump and air stone to be much more dependable than a water pump.

It is very easy to build your own DWC systems, check out the link in my signature below.


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## StoneyBud (May 19, 2009)

tashido said:
			
		

> got some pics or a diy?
> I duno anything bout makin ebb an flow.
> Didnt rlly find any useful tutos.
> Was thinking misting pvc pipe but ehh seems it wont forgive you at all lol


If you decide to use Ebb and Flow, PM me. I'll explain how to build one.


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## WeedHopper (May 19, 2009)

DWC all the way. Easy and cheap. I used to use Soil only,,but my 1st DWC grow made a believer outta me.:hubba:


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## JBonez (May 19, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> IMO, the easiest and most trouble free hydro is DWC.  You need a reservoir, an air pump, and some air stones--no water pumps to overheat the nute solution, no sprayers to clog and fail, no timer failures to worry about...



until your airpump goes out after you leave for work for the day.

jk,jk, i agree, and from a calculated perspective, dwc is less "physical" work, but not ideal for a SOG.

I do think dwc sog is possible, by grouping rectangular resevoirs with smaller net pots clustered together. this would def be beneficial.

Ive got bigger plans tho, A 4x4 grow tent converted to stadium style, with two 600w bulbs end over end in a vertical cool tube. This is gonna be a "drip" system, with emitters positioned above rockwool slaps still in there white wrappers running vertical as well.

At the bottoms of the walls, the rockwool slabs will drain to a res.

ive seen this in person and im wondering about the results, gotta be good.


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## The Hemp Goddess (May 19, 2009)

JBonez said:
			
		

> until your airpump goes out after you leave for work for the day.
> .



LOL--Well nothing is guaranteed to work all the time.  However, air pumps are very dependable.  I have never lost a plant from an air pump failure.  After all, people rely on them to keep their tropical fish alive--they need to be dependable.  IMO air pumps are far more dependable than water pumps, drip emitters, sprayers, and timers.


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## StoneyBud (May 19, 2009)

In regards to DWC and Ebb and Flow:

How many times per/crop do you DWC growers have to dump your reservoirs and clean them?

I use a fountain pump for my reservoir and in the entire time I've grown using Ebb and Flow, I've never had one fail during a grow. Maybe I'm just very lucky. I have one pump that's done about 10 grows so far. The ones that quit, do so after being shut off for an extended time. For some reason, fountain pumps don't like being out of use.

I use Beckett fountain pumps exclusively. The 185 gallon per/hour adjustable is my favorite.

If all I do is set up my system and then add nutrient solution until harvest, how can anything be easier than that? No cleaning, no dumping of reservoirs and no wasting of nutrient solution.

The fact that with DWC, you have to dump your reservoir and make new nutrient solution every week ? or so makes that much more work than the Ebb and Flow. Or do I have a mistaken impression of how DWC works?

As far as Hydroton dust...you should wash it prior to use. By doing this at setup, I've never had any collect in my reservoir.

All in all, the DWC is the easiest to understand. It's a plastic tub full of water with an air pump in it.

Ebb and Flow is much more complicated to set up, but it makes up for it during the grow with no maintenance at all. Just adding nutrient solution every couple of days and as with all inside grows, moving the light up when needed.

Hey, they all beat the hell out of buying weed on the street.

If you're growing in an old toilet, it still beats buying it on the street!

It's almost free weed.

The various spray methods do seem to clog spray heads way too often and that nasty old dirt is just, just, just....dirty! hehe  

(All my Mothers are grown in dirt. I like the way it makes them grow slower.) :hubba:


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## NorCalHal (May 20, 2009)

I have to agree with Stoney. Ebb and Flo>DWC.

I have done both for multiple years and have both small grow and large grows with both.

DWC does get better growth results, when everything goes well.
 With DWC, you HAVE to have your nuit PPM correct and PH is much more critical. Water temp is also a huge factor. If you have a recirc DWC system, buy a mop when one of the hydroton balls gets lodged in your return fitting/line.
Air pumps usually don't go out, but they do get weaker rather quickly and need replacing, as do the airstones.
If you have a recirc DWC with a res/controller attached, then topping off like a Ebb and Flo is possible.

Straight Ebb and Flo.
Easier to maintain. A little more expensive to set up, but you can build your own rather cheaply. If you build your own, the most expensive part is the Pump. BUT, 1 ebb and flo table, say 4'x4'  is probably justas cost effective as a 6 bucket DWC system under the same area.

With Ebb and Flo, there are quite a few mediums and "techniques" that can be used. Some folks fill the table with hydroton, some use net pots with hydroton. Others use straight 4-8" rockwool cubes. Coco, Airpots or regular pots. Many different Medium choices to fit your budget or whats available to you.

Unless you leave the pump on for greater then 20 minuates, then the pump should not "heat" the water. Water temp is far less criticle for E&F then DWC for sure. 
As Stoney said, water changes/topping off is quite easy.

Personally, I have a modified" feeding system that uses all the E&F equipment and it works quite well for me.
First off, I got TIRED of usuing hydroton. Take those balls and shove it! I'm over rinsing hydroton.

So, Stoney you might find this interesting. I use a basic E&F set up. a 4x4 tray over a 70 gal res. I do have my tables drilled for the E&F fittings.
So, when I start out new clones, I put them in 4"x4" rockwool cubs and put them in the tray anf feed them usuing the classic E&F.
Once they start blasting roots out of the cubes, I pot them in 2 gallon pots with shreaded rockwool. I then take my flood pump, attach a length of 1/2" blue hose and place that IN the tray. Now, usuing 1/4 drip line and the appropriate "fittings" I punch however many plant sites I will have. Now, I just run drip line to an OPEN feed spike to each plant.

So, this basically creates a Drip system (but doesn't drip, it actually flows pretty heavy) in a flood tray. The runoff goes back into the res.

You can apply the same principles for water changes/topping off as you do.

Works like a charm, everytime.

As Stoney said, once it is set up, it is VERY easy to maintain throughout the entire click.


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## StoneyBud (May 20, 2009)

Hey NCH, I use Rubbermaid tubs for my grow chambers. One plant per/tub.

The benefit is that I can move the individual tubs in any config I wish. In a line, in an "L" in a cube, whatever fits the room I'm working in and the size of the plants.

I never have to change out my solution. A properly sized reservoir makes that unnecessary for people like me who are home in my house every single night.

Trips, no problem. I add a 50 gallon reservoir to the existing one and I'm good for two weeks. I just put my light where it's needed for two weeks worth of growing.

ph? I've never even owned a ph meter. I've never had the need for one. I can tell what my plants need by looking at them. It comes from 25 years of hydro experience.

I'm thinking of trying the tray method with a crap load of auto-flowers.

Ebb and Flow, all the way!


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## D3 (May 20, 2009)

I use an AeroFlo2, BUT I dont suggest it for a biginner. It takes more of your time than the others. Very touchy, but very rewarding.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 20, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> LOL--Well nothing is guaranteed to work all the time. However, air pumps are very dependable. I have never lost a plant from an air pump failure. After all, people rely on them to keep their tropical fish alive--they need to be dependable. IMO air pumps are far more dependable than water pumps, drip emitters, sprayers, and timers.


 
I considered air pump failure as a potential issue when going with DWC after going with flood and drain in the past and having a pump clog on me and fail... so I planned for it possibly happening.  In my grow room I have 8 DWC reservoirs that each hold 4-6 plants.  Each reservoir is run by TWO 12" air stones.  Powering my air stones I have TWO Eco Air 8 air pumps.  Instead of powering 4 res's with each air pump I have one line from each of the two air pumps going to all 8 res's.  I have to run all 16 lines anyway so why not do it in a smart way?  This way if there was a failure of an air pump my nute solution would still stay aerated and mixed.  I am even running the two air pumps on different electrical circuits in case a fuse blows.  As far as functionality goes I find that DWC is definitely more DEPENDABLE than flood and drain or drip feed, but I am not sure about results and overall ABILITY when it comes to results or which system is the most forgiving.  I am certainly not an expert so I doubt I was maxing out any of those systems when growing.


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## JBonez (May 20, 2009)

NCH, i washed 100l of hydroton in 16 minutes, start to finish including clean up.

Not sure why you got issues with hydroton.

Imo, hydroton is the best medium in the world. More flood times and more dry times equal more roots and overall health as the roots are flooded with an oxygen filled solution, then, oxygen by itself which coupled with the remaining moisture makes the ultimate root environment, again, imo.

Rockwool stays wetter, longer. Hydroton requires frequent waterings which is the ultimate way to go, again, i strongly feel this way and is why ive converted to hydro from soil, and went straight to ebb and flow sog. More plants, vegged shorter under a powerful light means max yield.

For the following grow, im gonna build a basic and very simple diy "stadium walls.

four white plastic walls.
rain gutters modified into a square, this will catch runoff.
2 600w lights, in a dual cooltube hung vertically.
res at the bottom in middle.
rockwool slabs hung vertically 

This setup is going to hold 50 plants. EVERY bit of light and grow space are being used.

I think 3lbs from two 600w lights is achievable.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 20, 2009)

1.12 grams per watt.......that would be off the chain.


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## Super Silver Haze (May 20, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> ph? I've never even owned a ph meter. I've never had the need for one. I can tell what my plants need by looking at them. It comes from 25 years of hydro experience.


 
StoneyBud, now your just bragging.   

i think ill stick with every meter i can get.


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## JBonez (May 20, 2009)

NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer said:
			
		

> 1.12 grams per watt.......that would be off the chain.



now that youve done the math,

I estimate about mm... 2.5 lbs my first try with my 1000w and 24 clones ive got going into flower shortly.


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## StoneyBud (May 20, 2009)

Super Silver Haze said:
			
		

> StoneyBud, now your just bragging.
> 
> i think ill stick with every meter i can get.


hehe, I started growing my first outside crop of weed in 1950. It consisted of me throwing a jar full of seeds, that were given to me, on one side of a berry patch on the edge of a clearing.

From that size to managing a 40 acre crop in Northern Mexico, I've done a lot of growing. The last 25 years of Hydro growing has been more fun than anything I've ever done.

During all that growing, I've seen every problem that can happen, I'm pretty sure. Don't get me wrong; I've had plenty of failure. More than I care to remember. Each failure taught me a lesson and brought me to where I am now.

I'm sure they must have had ph testers back in the 50's, but they were prolly as big as a bus and cost 200 thousand bucks. I have no idea.

I've just never used one, so even though I fully understand the PPM and each of the other methods used to define the standards of the grow environment, I don't use them myself. I just watch my plants and know what they need.

Plus, the system I use with the Ebb and Flow, combined with my well water and GH nutes, it's so easy that anyone could do it after watching me on one crop and taking a few notes.


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## WeedHopper (May 20, 2009)

Im curious. If ya think your PH is to high or low by looking at your plants,,what do you use to lower or raise the PH? 
OR ,,are you saying your well water and nutes come out just right? Its just that with Hydro it always seems from what I have read,, PH is very important. So Im guessing you have been very lucky with good water to have not locked your plants out with a high or low PH. Man I wish I could watch you once to see what ya do. I am always watching my PH,,cause it seems to be so important. Since I started doing that my girls have been way bigger,greener and healthier. Anyway,,wish I had yur touch ya old goat.


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## StoneyBud (May 20, 2009)

CowboyBudsky said:
			
		

> Im curious. If ya think your PH is to high or low by looking at your plants,,what do you use to lower or raise the PH?
> OR ,,are you saying your well water and nutes come out just right? Its just that with Hydro it always seems from what I have read,, PH is very important. So Im guessing you have been very lucky with good water to have not locked your plants out with a high or low PH. Man I wish I could watch you once to see what ya do. I am always watching my PH,,cause it seems to be so important. Since I started doing that my girls have been way bigger,greener and healthier. Anyway,,wish I had yur touch ya old goat.


I know this will slay you, but I've never had to adjust the ph.

My well water is pretty hard, but by using the "Hard Water" Micro nutes from GH, it resolves the problem.

Growing weed isn't rocket science. If it has a few problems during a grow, I just use the GH nutes to adjust the levels and it always improves. I guess you could say I adjust my ph with the nutes. I've never really thought of it that way.

I've developed a "feel" for what the plants need and what my water/nutes give them.

Piece of cake!

A pound per/crop. Always has been, always will be.

I have weed falling out of my ears.

Price of weed? I haven't a clue. Mine costs me about $300 a pound, cured. That's the electric, nutes and seeds.


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## mr.greengenes (May 20, 2009)

Wow, impressive stuff here. Thanks for sharing all your experience with greenhorn newbies like me. I'm gonna learn a lot.


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## MootPointBlank (May 20, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> hehe, I started growing my first outside crop of weed in 1950. It consisted of me throwing a jar full of seeds, that were given to me, on one side of a berry patch on the edge of a clearing.
> 
> From that size to managing a 40 acre crop in Northern Mexico, I've done a lot of growing. The last 25 years of Hydro growing has been more fun than anything I've ever done.
> 
> ...



Are you currently offering any internships? I swear I've made every mistake there's a troubleshoot for, and then some, and I still haven't grown anything I would even force my enemies to smoke. Okay that's a bit extreme, having barely made it through one season, so far. Heat and pH have been my consistent challenges, though, I think I've solved the heat issue and I have a solution being delivered Friday that should, hopefully, address the pH issue. Not that any of you really wanted to know any of that. I guess I this is a good sign that I should start a journal...

MPB

P.S. Look for my new journal. If anything it should be amusing to watch me stumble as I continue to step on my own d**k.


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## StoneyBud (May 20, 2009)

MootPointBlank said:
			
		

> Are you currently offering any internships? ...I continue to step on my own d**k.


Quit stepping on that duck!

hehe

What type of hydro are you doing?

Tell us about your setup. Room size, height, ventilation.

Lights, distance, nutes.

All the good stuff.

(I guess it would be more appropriate if you used your own thread tho'.)


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## NorCalHal (May 21, 2009)

Cowboy, I too do not check my PH, and have not for at least 5 years or more. No Need. I too use GH and the hardwater Micro, and the PH balences perfect everytime.

I get alot of folks who ask me for a "recipe", and I cannot really provide that for them. It is all about how the plants are doing at that particular moment.
The plants will tell you what they need. I have to SEE the plants in order to reccomend a good nuit mix, which will only be goods for a week anyway.

I am going for lush green growth, with a slight leaf tip burn. That tells me that my nuit uptake is maxed. It all comes from experience and, as Stoney said, MANY failed crops. If you do not fail, you do not learn, imo. I too have been doing hydro since 1988.

JBonez, I understand what you are saying about the rockwool staying "wet", BUT the trick is to mix the rockwool up. I use Absobant and NON absobant rockwool in a 50/50 mix. High oxygen and the roots love it.

For me, the rockwool medium is a little more forgiving is a feed line comes loose for a day or another issue happens. It will sustain the plant without watering for a good 24-36 hours before drying out completly.
The Hydroton was just a pain for me. Do you reuse your hydroton?

Stoney, the GH Micro does act as a PH down and is the main culprit in keeping the PH lower and more stable. Most Household water is around 7.0, so when I make my mix, it ends up at around 5.7-5.8. Same thing man, If I see an issue, I usually add a little more Micro, which usually fixes any nuit/PH looking issue.

Also Cowboy, adjusting your PH daily does more harm then good imo. Do not try to keep your PH at one specific level allways. Let er drift a few points bro.
Initially, set it a little lower, like 5.5 if you are having a real big drift.
Maybe you can elaborate on how your PH acts for us.


I am HAPPY. Stoney, you and I are very alike when it comes to growing our friend maryjane. You are the first person I have met that does not check thier PH too. When I tell folks that, they laugh at me. 
You should move out to Cali and get access to all our clone only strains man, you could retire quite comfortably and provide top notch medicine. Believe me when I say, Just because everyone out here is growing, doesn't mean that they are growing DANK.

Hydro FTW!


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## WeedHopper (May 21, 2009)

Yes Sir thats what I do,,I let her drift,,but I check everyday when its at the last couple weeks of flowering because it drifts to high or low sometimes. But..Im sure given time I will figure it out,,,like a bigger rez.  I have never used a PPM meter. I like you try and get my leaf tips to turn and burn a little. Course my PH drifts more cause I use a smaller rez then some.


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## StoneyBud (May 21, 2009)

I guess we should mention something for the newbies, so they don't get the wrong impression; when we talk about letting out leaf tips burn just a tad, we're talking about only the new growth that we're watching. I say this because in my instruction to many people who are new to growing, they say to me; "Stoney, the leaf tips are all the same as the last three weeks!", and then they point at the "Old Growth" on the plant. Many don't realize that the leaves won't repair themselves and that they should watch only the "New Growth" that is a brighter green and just starting on the week that you've made a change to your plants environment.

That new growth will tell you how your changes have had an effect on your plant.

Old growth collects light and foliar nutrients. New growth tells you what your plant is doing during any given week. Watch that new growth closely. Any severe problems you have will show within a day or two on the newest growth.

The speed in which the new growth gets larger is a HUGE factor in nutrient adjustment. If, during normal vegging, the plant seems to stall, and the new growth has just stopped, look around the plant carefully and see if new side growth is taking place. If so, you have no problem. If no new growth is evident on the entire plant for more than a week, and you haven't changed any other factors in the plants life, like light height or type, then try increasing your nitrogen about 10%. Then, again watch your new growth and see if the plant starts growing again within two or three days. It should. This is a determining factor of my adding to the Nitrogen level of the nutrient solution and usually causes the new growth to start a new sprint for the light.

Watch the old growth for pests. The new growth for nutrients.

Of course, nothing is an absolute. When you see something that is outside this instruction, that's when you post your problem and yell for help!


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## WeedHopper (May 21, 2009)

Yeah,,I always hated that. If I burned my girls alittle to much,,had to deal with the old ugly leafs the rest of the grow untill they fell off. 
Like ya said Stoney,,I watch the new growth for the turn and burn. Maybe ya could paint the ugly leafs green.


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