# Legalization a think tank discussion



## snuggles (Jun 7, 2008)

If they were to legalize MJ/Hemp what would they have to do? Who stands in the way and how would they get hurt? Is taxing it enough? How much would they need to tax it? What would the new laws be like? Anything at all you would like to say about the effects on other businesses?

Rant and ramble as much as you want, stray as much as you want but give us your ideas. Even if you don't quite know the ins and outs say what's on your mind.

But no name calling and be nice please I know it is a passionate subject but lets remember we are all friends here and on the same side...discuss nice and maybe we can all learn from each other which is the beauty of it all. Let's have some fun with this one 

Also come up with your own ideas as to how to get it legalized, strategies and what not. How will it happen?


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## POTUS (Jun 7, 2008)

* First, thank you snuggles, for starting such an interesting thread. This is a real thought provoker. Great idea!
You didn't specify a Country that this is for, and I think there are about 20 represented here, so I'll make my answer fit what would be my opinion if it were in ANY country.*

*1. If they were to legalize MJ/Hemp what would they have to do?* 

*Obviously, the majority of the voters would have to have a ballot on which to gain legalization. Just getting that ballot approved to exist on a National level would be an almost impossible task, regardless of the country the ballot would be for. Some countries would be easier than others to gain a ballot in, but all of the countries that MJ is illegal in now, would be tough.*

*2. Who stands in the way and how would they get hurt?*

*I hate to generalize, but I think the largest block of people who would present a unified front against MJ legalization would be the various churches. The "It will turn you into a Godless Heathen" syndrome is alive and well in many countries.*

*After them, I believe the second largest group would be the established Government officials now in place. A second syndrome known as "Don't rock the boat that floated you into office" would kick in hard.*

*The third of the largest groups against MJ would be the straight laced, "Never did it, never will" bunch. Those folks aren't going to change their minds for any reason. They've locked in the thought that if THEY don't *need* it, then *nobody* should! They're another version of the "Don't rock the boat" syndrome.*

*I don't think MJ has a chance of being legalized anywhere that it's now illegal, for many, many DECADES. The rules that now apply to MJ are so entrenched, I don't think a large enough block of people can be established to overturn the exiting way of thinking. Those who own the ball can stop the game by simply taking their ball home. The established anti-marijuana block are so entrenched and so damn established, that it'll take a HUGE worldwide movement to cause the overturning of the existing laws of even a single country as a whole. My country, the USA, would be one of the last to legalize it and I believe that won't happen for at least another century, if the event I speak of below doesn't happen.*

*Who would it hurt? Only those whose income or existence depend on MJ's illegality now. Half the cops would be out of work. Half the Justice departments of each country. *

*A lot of alcohol related businesses that have a narrow profit margin would fail. I believe that many people who are just looking for a good softening of reality while playing a set of darts or a game of pool, or out for a night of dancing would find that MJ fills their needs when they can enjoy it at the club. Booze would take the hit.*

*The logistical roll-down effect would cause a lot of temporary unemployment. For example, the Judge needs no courtroom, no staff for MJ related offences. Therefore, they don't need the desks, office equipment or electricity/heat/air conditioning that was needed so the lessening of those factors causes unemployment. This rolls down in thousands of directions and has to be addressed BEFORE legalizing MJ.*

*3. Is taxing it enough? How much would they need to tax it?*

*It could, and would be taxed exactly as alcohol is now. They would make a freaking fortune from it. Combined with the savings in legal outpouring of money, it would be a boon to every country. Of course, if you're one of the people put out of work as a result, you wouldn't agree.*

*4. What would the new laws be like? Anything at all you would like to say about the effects on other businesses?*

*After a few generations of legal pot use, I don't think anyone would really give a crap. It would be thought of much as the prohibition of alcohol in the USA is thought of now. Interesting, foolish, expensive, fruitless, but now, not very interesting.*

*I covered how it would affect other businesses in number "2" above.*


*Well, you asked, and I've put my thoughts down. Many will disagree, no doubt, many will agree.*

*As each person here reads the "DECADES" estimate I made, I'll hear the screams of denial, disbelief and prayers of an alternate ending, but that is my opinion. I've seen more than 7 decades of life. During that time, I've seen my examples proven in many ways. I honestly, truly hope that I'm wrong, but I doubt it.*

*My actual forecast is that the most devastating of all events will happen prior to the legalization of MJ. After that global event, I believe that MJ will be considered too trivial to be concerned with. It will pass into legalization without anyone really caring.*

*I believe that event will be a Worldwide Pandemic of Influenza. I see it coming within the next 50 years. I believe that two or more BILLIONS of people throughout the world will die during it. This event will cause a major shift in world politics and a more intense focusing of attention on things that really matter to survival.*

*MJ just won't be that big of thing then.*


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## Rehab is for Quitters (Jun 8, 2008)

Great idea for a thread, snuggles. I agree that legalization will be next to impossible (except for medical use) but I personlly would be happy with decriminalization for recreational users.

I live in California and recently a 'treatment vs incarceration'  initiative (prop 36) passed and of course we lead the nation in medical mj (prop 215). In every gubernatorial election we have there is a candidate whose sole platform is the legalization of mj (but of course we've also had strippers on the ballot not to mention Gary Coleman so that doesn;t seem so weird out here). Our current governor even openly admitted to having smoked (and inhaled!) mj. So my perspective based on the progress over the past decade is that we are well on the way towards decriminalization in the state of California. 

That said, we are still subject to federal law but the good news is these cases of conflicting jurisdiction usually end up in the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals which is notoriously liberal.

As for the rest of the country, I don't know, but I don't hold much hope for the bible belt due to the widespread prevelance of the  'It Will Turn You Into a Godless Heathen' Syndrome...


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## Bleek187 (Jun 8, 2008)

lol ok.. sence we kinda jacked that other thread.. i guess this is a little better..  i think personaly this great United States of America would be way better off to change the tax system.. there is a name for it but i forgot what it is sorry.. but basicly the system now is to tax the money we make, then tax us when we spend that money, then tax us agin for owning the things we buy with this money... so we get taxd at least 2 times on every dime we make... Now.. the other way of doing this would be to do away with the IRS along with income and property tax.. the only tax would be sales tax.. this tax goes up from 7% to around 15%... and this percent could be adjusted to make this system run smooth for everyone... This is what happens because of this system... lower to middle class people save TONS of money under this system.. we can afford to buy more things now because we no longer have to worry about paying every year just to own them... also the government still makes the same if not more money through this tax system because,,,,,, ilegal money is now being spent and taxed... (its being washd and spent anyway so why not get a peace of that action)   what happens now is a drug dealer who wants to go buy a brand new BMW  just goes to the BMW store and drops 80 grand on it.. thats 80 grand worth of drug money geting taxd that never would have under the system we have now... drug dealer has his car, government has the tax from the sale, everybodys happy... This system has one single draw back... the rich people will no longer have all the tax breaks they have now BUT  should they? i think no.. and if you have enough money for this to make a differance to you than you need to share =)    regardless noone would be hurt from this system and this country would be a much better place expesualy for the majority of the population.. middle class and people in poverty would see a huge change.. seams to me like these are the people.. we the people.. its some crazy percent of the population that has all the wealth.. like 1 person of the population has 90% of the wealth.. dont quote me on that but its a crazy percentage close to that... 

  OK   all that being said.... i donno what my point was... i got lost... sorry =)


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## mojosat (Jun 8, 2008)

The biggest opposers will be the endless pockets of big tobbacco, liquor, and the pharmecutical companies.

Taxes would be an issue too, becuase honestly, I would never buy it from a store if it had a legal status. It's not like making your own alcohol which is relativley diffucult as was evident by my brother-in-laws horrendous attempts at beer making and he is literally a rocket scientist. All it takes is a little bit of knowledge, some decent dirt, light, and water.

If it was legal I would have it hanging baskets on my front stoop, line my backyard with it like an annual privacy fence, and put Christmas lights on it in the front window during the holidays.


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## mojosat (Jun 8, 2008)

Bleek187 said:
			
		

> lol ok.. sence we kinda jacked that other thread.. i guess this is a little better.. i think personaly this great United States of America would be way better off to change the tax system.. there is a name for it but i forgot what it is sorry.. but basicly the system now is to tax the money we make, then tax us when we spend that money, then tax us agin for owning the things we buy with this money... so we get taxd at least 2 times on every dime we make... Now.. the other way of doing this would be to do away with the IRS along with income and property tax.. the only tax would be sales tax.. this tax goes up from 7% to around 15%... and this percent could be adjusted to make this system run smooth for everyone... This is what happens because of this system... lower to middle class people save TONS of money under this system.. we can afford to buy more things now because we no longer have to worry about paying every year just to own them... also the government still makes the same if not more money through this tax system because,,,,,, ilegal money is now being spent and taxed... (its being washd and spent anyway so why not get a peace of that action) what happens now is a drug dealer who wants to go buy a brand new BMW just goes to the BMW store and drops 80 grand on it.. thats 80 grand worth of drug money geting taxd that never would have under the system we have now... drug dealer has his car, government has the tax from the sale, everybodys happy... This system has one single draw back... the rich people will no longer have all the tax breaks they have now BUT should they? i think no.. and if you have enough money for this to make a differance to you than you need to share =) regardless noone would be hurt from this system and this country would be a much better place expesualy for the majority of the population.. middle class and people in poverty would see a huge change.. seams to me like these are the people.. we the people.. its some crazy percent of the population that has all the wealth.. like 1 person of the population has 90% of the wealth.. dont quote me on that but its a crazy percentage close to that...
> 
> OK all that being said.... i donno what my point was... i got lost... sorry =)


 

The fair tax, and despite what Neal Boortz tells us, its a pipe dream in this country.

I love you avatar btw.


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## Bleek187 (Jun 8, 2008)

yea fair tax...  it sounds great but like you said... its about as probable as geting weed legalized...

i wasnt sure if that avatar was gonna fly on here but i just had to use it lol


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## ChatNoir (Jun 8, 2008)

In Turkey, everything works differently, illegal things can still be illegal yet they can be legal at the same time so this version is for the Turkey I live in.

Cons of Cannabis' Being &#304;llegal

Most of the cannabis sales is connected to PKK terorist organisation, this organisation has slaughtered more than 30,000 innocent people in past ten years.

Despite the medical usage of Cannabis in USA and Europe as well as Canada, Turkey is in an ignorant bliss so a lot of people can not reach Medical Cannabis for their ailments.

There are 4513 registered Talasemy patient living in here as well as 300,000 carrier which every single of them suffer greatly and most of them can afford grow outdoor but a few of them can buy any pharmaceutics also majority of these people are children and teens as most of them can not live pass teenage years. These people are without medicine.

There is a reasonable amount of cash flow into preventive laws but a little improvement as kids at age of 16 is smoking on streets.

Turkey is in deep economic crisis and is depended on outside sources for certain products which cannabis plant can supply.


Cons of Cannabis' Being &#304;llegal

I am thinking but I can not find any...


Conditions That Prevent Cannabis From Being Legal

First of all is uneducated people whom believe in Cannabis is a deadly drug and it is addictive and it has no medical quality.

Since early 1940s Turkey is the lapdog of certain countries so basically Turkey has little to non control over its resources as USA and EU is dictating how much sugar beet that the Turkey can plant, not to use boron resources, most of oil resources are under the properties of USA companies and much more...

There are a lot of pharmaceutical companies that reaps the benefits of a huge market and there are so called doctors without ethics whom prescribe harsh but inefficient medicine to people in expense of their health so these so called doctors gain huge amounts of cash and companies earn a great deal as well.


What may Turkey Gain If It Legalises Cannabis Plant

Turkey is surrounded by sea and is Mediterranean Turkey so its climate is perfect for Cannabis agriculture and in a lot of places there are fields which is hard to deal with so no agriculture is applied. Cannabis can turn these fields into a usable form. There are 36.551.000 decares of agricultural area that is left to fallow and 113.403.000 decares of agricultural area that is not suitable for classic agriculture so to speak Cannabis plant will bring life to these areas.

Moreover there is a tourism problem in recent years because of foreign propaganda. Cannabis plant can solve this problem, Cannabis tourism will increase the number of tourist in tenfold. Whom would smoke in a cold place like Amsterdam where they can smoke next to Mediterranean sea in the ruins of a kingdom lost to time?

Legalisation and taxation of Cannabis has two side benefits, firstly cash flow to terrorist organisations will be cut and one less soldier dies, one less family drowns in sorrows, one less mother holds the coffin of her son in tears... Moreover much less expense for army. The other benefit of legalisation and taxation of Cannabis will provide government a great deal of cash flow from direct sales, retail sales, industry sales, pharmaceutical sales and so on...

On the medical aspect, there are a lot of patients in need of cheap medicine or a medicine that they can breed themselves, most of these people are either living on Turkeyside or living in poor conditions in poor conditions in the sprawls of big cities. They can easily breed a plant without much care and have themselves a steady source of medicine.


Current Situation of Cannabis In Turkey

Using Cannabis for hemp products is legal under very strict control as not many farmers are planting cannabis plants also planting is restricted to a few providences. Farmers are inspected monthly and before harvest they are inspected weekly and their harvest is inspected as well. Under these circumstances it is next to impossible for most of the farmers whom value privacy and work with their families to grow cannabis plant.

Medical usage is also legal in theory but in practice no single doctor can prescribe Cannabis plant for medical usage and even though they get proper documentation, finish the paper work and get appropriate approvals there is no law for breeding cannabis plant at home as well as government does not breed medical cannabis plant. There is also no information cultivated about medical usage of cannabis plant, research is forbidden as well.

Regulation, Legalisation and Taxation of Cannabis In Turkey

First of all, government should collect information about Cannabis plant, medical cannabis, intoxicative strains, hemp strains and much more.

Farmers should get licences for breeding each type of Cannabis plant and breed accordingly, taxed accordingly also monopoly system can be used which worked fine for tobacco as well as alcohol products. Individual producers get licences and produce their production and directly sell it to government monopoly then government monopoly distributes the production to stores which are licensed to sell these productions. Under tax, totally legal, totally under government control. These process should also let individual seed banks to sell seeds, with licence and taxation of course.

It should be free to produce plant for own sake to a certain limit, such as 100 plants though mafia and terrorist organisations will find cannabis plant distasteful as their prices can not race with government prices so only patients as well as individuals whom wishes to consume their own will breed afterwards or some families for the sake of seeds in order to eat such as some families have olive trees including my grandparents whom eat their own olives and finds industrial grade olives distasteful.


Possible Abuses of Legalisation

As far as we know, alcohol and tobacco products is sold to children below legal age, same is possible for cannabis though this time we can be sure of this cannabis product is not tainted with anything from hard drugs to toxic substances.

Cannabis will be more available and people may drive while they are intoxicated though it is same for alcohol and alcohol has worse effect then cannabis on this case and it is still legal.

There will be fake cannabis plants sold like face alcohol and fake medicine, in this case buying your product from a trustworthy reseller will prevent all these problems, preferably from a licensed monopoly reseller.


How Can We Make Cannabis Legal

Keyword is public awareness, newspapers and televisions can be your worst enemy as well as best friend. This is a tricky and salty road indeed. As an example, currently these Turkey is under the rule of right wing and their power is weakening like Bush's in USA, so letting left wing newspapers flood the media with cannabis information is vital for two important factors. Firstly they will create a public awareness, less people think that cannabis is an evil plant the better, the more people whom believes in cannabis is future cash crop which can save the Turkey, the better. Secondly, we are using the political wars for our gain, they will don the cause as if their lives depend on it and the more they believe in it, the more real it becomes.

Visual media and personal education is important as well, it is important to erase the good-for-nothing pothead image and place an image of an old lady consuming cannabis plant in order to achieve a healthy life, a doctorate student smoking for concretion or people frying their food in healthy hemp oil, cultural usage of hemp seeds, a clean energy source and the TV can achieve all these, it is much powerful than newspapers and journals. People seeing their idol consuming cannabis plant for medical as well as intoxicative usages would like to do it as well, they will love plant. If you are living in a Turkey with these rates, it is best to use TV though first using newspapers will create a better ground for TV step.

Rates of Reading, Listening and Watching TV In Turkey
Journals 4% Books 4,5% Newspapers 22%, Radio 25%, TV 95%



In Conclusion, it is possible, it is beneficial and we need to work on it.


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## POTUS (Jun 8, 2008)

Hey Cornellius, I don't know about anyone else, but I have no idea what country you're talking about when you say "this country".

I don't know where you live man...


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## ChatNoir (Jun 8, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> Hey Cornellius, I don't know about anyone else, but I have no idea what country you're talking about when you say "this country".
> 
> I don't know where you live man...



I wanted to keep it anonymous, just the current news of people getting busted makes me nervous... Just a few people know where I do live... Though these recent happenstances made me nervous enough to change even my user name...


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## POTUS (Jun 8, 2008)

Cornellius said:
			
		

> I wanted to keep it anonymous, just the current news of people getting busted makes me nervous... Just a few people know where I do live... Though these recent happenstances made me nervous enough to change even my user name...


 
Ok man, I know you're on earth....I've almost got you figured out...hehe


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## ChatNoir (Jun 8, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> Ok man, I know you're on earth....I've almost got you figured out...hehe



Now, I changed it... Lets see...


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## wakebud77 (Jun 8, 2008)

if i had to say, either  Canada, France, or another euro counrty. But i dont think it should be made legal for everyone. Im in the US and i do agree with medcinal but think about how much our country abuses preceription drugs. I know 4 people who OD'ed on different drugs RIP... but to tell you the truth i like who i have smoked with in the past. If you smoke on a normal basis you know what you like, how much you can handle(paranoid, stoned stupid, sleepy), and you know when not to smoke(work, school, taking care of kids, etc.) I am a little worried about some stupid people getting into one of my biggest loves in smoking. I am not for the full legalization but at least the decriminalization of it, and putting it at the lowest care for LEO's. I dont think people should drive on it(people drink and a drive a lil so it would happen anyways), i dont think that people in a position of power or in a life saving posistion should be on it while being at work on call etc. But i do think that the jail time, and huge fines are bad for everyone. I agree with Cali's treatment vs. incarceration is the way all countries should be. If a person shows they can't handle the ability to use it responsibly then they shouldn't be allowed to use it like liquor. I think that in the states there does need to be more testing into what it really does because most of the testing occuring is one sided. The goverment does tests and private people do tests right now and there should be a bigger test group for it. I think there should be an age restriction with being able to use it. 21 maybe? I never did like being 18 and not being able to drink but now i look at it and realize why. Americans are idiots. We think that we know what is good for us at a young age and in truth we could be throwing our lives away just looking for fun. I know a few people that got into drinking/smoking/ popping pills and cant stop now they have tickets cant pay them cant get jobs to pay them and its just a revolving circle. Or they use a substance and they become junkies just looking for their next hit. I think 21 is acceptable with fines for use under 21, and i dont believe that kids under 18 should use it excessively. 3 strike rule maybe? then tested and not allowed to use till older? But the biggest hurdle that is facing legalization is by far, tabacco, alcohol companies. They would lose alot of buisness if people ever found out the truth that bud isn't as bad as the goverment would have us believe. They pay off the beaurocratc dogs to follow their lead into tricking the country. I think in this counrty 15 years from now most states will be testing some form of a medcinal program or it will be apporved by the federal goverment, and in 20-25 it will be legal. maybe less but medcinal will lead the way. Testing into it will begin to recieve more apporval by the goverment in a few years as medcinal is gaining support in few states here. It is one of the best medcines out there and people will learn that learn they can grow it themselves to help alot of ailments, and it is a very cheap medicine. Then I think the word will spread about how it is pretty much harmless and alot safer than liquor. from there idk but thats my thoughts...


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## snuggles (Jun 8, 2008)

What you are describing is called being responisble, if you go to norml.org they have a list that responsible smokers should follow. Also no one has ever died from a MJ overdose, do you know anyone who get get 15 lbs. into their body in under 15 minutes...LOL. Your medicine cabinet is more danger to you and your family than a plant that makes you high....

Also I have to say it, medical marijuana is not a joke or being abused. Just look at almost any over the counter drug or all the silly drugs we are prescribed, if you do some research you will see that America "overprescribes" drugs, cha ching. Here are some MM uses, treating addiction (they have pills), chemo (improves appetite, sleep, and decrease nausea which lead to a better immune system), asthma, pain, GI problems, hyperactivity, etc etc. If you think MM was a joke at one point or you still do what do you think about all these prescription drugs? The pharma companies are so full of shite and so are the politicians it's pathetic. Hey everyone and their mom is on antidepressants, did you know you have to be chemically depressed for most to work, it's a joke IMO. Not depression but the way they just write these scripts without checking people out...it's wrong.

When I was on probation for my prior "crimes", I drank a lot LOL. I was offered Chantix, that's right the county was in cahoots with the makers of Chantix, I said no of course but look at how the pharma and the legal systems are getting together. Let me get this straight, I can't smoke a plant or eat it but I can get myself some Chantix for my problems and they will help me get it...Chantix is so close to being pulled right now...it's sick and it's wrong. 20 years from now Pharma could be telling us how to live LOL it's scarey.


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## clanchattan (Jun 9, 2008)

outlawed in 1937 to make way for Du Pont to monopolize the rope market.
Nylon. no way if it were leagalized for the pharm corperations to make any money off of it. picture this... how many of you would support a bill that says its legal to be prescribed, owned(with a script), ingested, but not to begrown by the public. the only way for pharm./ govt. to genetate coin is to leave everyone here who grows it outside the legal blanket. unless there is a tax stamp, federal and state, oh wait..................there is and boy does that WORK.


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## Bleek187 (Jun 9, 2008)

it was outlawed for many more reasons.. it was used to descriminate aginst mexicans and blacks.. along with a list of other stupid reasons.. and the tax stamp was made for the purpose of outlawing it.. you have to have a tax stamp to grow or have it.. so they just didnt produce any tax stamps.. it was just a way to get around the law at the time and to make it ilegal.. if you look at the history of it and how it came to be ilegal its actualy quite rediculous..


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## kubefuism (Jun 9, 2008)

The time to act is here fellow supporters....It's on the table.  go to congress.org;  H.R. 5842-H.R.5843--Federal Decrim. in USA.  Please speak your mind and contact your house rep.  This is how laws are made and changed.  Get out.  Start educating.  I've called both of mine and am pettioning.  Please help me spread the word...


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## BBFan (Jun 9, 2008)

Good info kubefuism- it puts it in the hands of the state- so snuggles you're still screwed in backwards PA.  It would still be illegal to grow though from what I've read.


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## snuggles (Jun 9, 2008)

I'm a firm believer in the fact that they would not allow us to grow it...slimey politicians...even if it was legal. I'm for decriminaliztion, ala no jail just citation stuff. Legalization requires the gov't, you want them growing the MJ? LOL yeah well PA is going to be a thing of the past


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## snuggles (Jun 9, 2008)

kubefuism said:
			
		

> The time to act is here fellow supporters....It's on the table. go to congress.org; H.R. 5842-H.R.5843--Federal Decrim. in USA. Please speak your mind and contact your house rep. This is how laws are made and changed. Get out. Start educating. I've called both of mine and am pettioning. Please help me spread the word...


 
Exactly!!!! it's not the antis keeping us down so much as it is the non active smoker. We outnumber them, what does that tell you?


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## KGB30 (Jun 9, 2008)

If Marijuana was legalized I feel the Goverment would put even a more growing striction on coltivation. Ya the Goverment would make Billions of dollars off of Marijuana but our Goverment would still be in the RED.

People who drive while stone are less likely to get into a accident then someone on Alcohol. Still stupid to drive stoned you endanger peoples life every time you drive.


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## LowRider (Jun 9, 2008)

mojosat said:
			
		

> The biggest opposers will be the endless pockets of big tobbacco, liquor, and the pharmecutical companies.
> 
> If it was legal I would have it hanging baskets on my front stoop, line my backyard with it like an annual privacy fence, and put Christmas lights on it in the front window during the holidays.


 
that first part i would have to disagree just for the fact companies adapt a whole lot easier now a days and they can adapt within days or weeks if need be.   You think Companies only do research here in the US???  hell look at the pharmaceutical companies already. there already making pills and sprays with it. there adapting. tobacco would get in on the business also. they already have the machines to roll cigarettes. Liquor, i won't even give that up even after pot is legal. And matter of fact just ask your friends. a L and a beer or drink of (liquor of choice) I'll be sleeping like a king. these are false statements spread by us for what ever reasons (my guess the tree huggers). Economics is what the free market is about. they would adapt if they see profit from it and if there isn't profit from it then they won't sell products made from it. Lets think before we spit this stupid **** out. I'm not saying this directly at you but to everyone as a whole.

as for that last part, MARRY CHRISTMAS!!!

Does this have a chance to be legal here in the US, it sure does. (alot will disagree cause they have lost hope). But lets look at it in a wider picture across the US. Look at Cali, they have shops going everyday selling it all across LA and other counties. Look at Oregon, they have there own Cannabis Cup. Look how many other states are starting to decriminalize it. Look at how many states are trying to legalize it for medical purposes. Is it going to be a slow process , YES without a doubt. But we have to keep the fight going.


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## snuggles (Jun 9, 2008)

Those rumors weren't started by treehuggers. just look at who throws the most money at keeping it illegal? And you will see that tobacco, and alcohol are right at the top with pharma. Also you really want the Pharma companies synthesizing all this stuff? If they sybthesize it then we get left out again. Marijuana would still be illegal unless you took a synthetic version LOL. Also I agree to an extent some sates are becoming more leniant while others are becoming way worse. If you look at the map the west coast is doing fine the rest of the country not so good, it's getting worse here. Also the ones that have the federal laws get some cash from the feds, they don't care about what's right just who has the money. Tell Ed Rosenthal and Steve Kubby they are making all this up, also did you know at one point tobacco was giving money to healthcare and vice cersa, the cycle of money goes round and round. And in other countries they have different healthcare so Pharma gets what it gets and no more, here it's all about capitalism even when it comes the health of loved ones. We are "supposed" to be the greatest country in the world, and we have unisured children everywhere...they don't care about us, we have dollar signs on our head. Also tobacco and alcohol will be more scrutinized then they already are, they want no parts of that plain and simple and yes some people will switch from alcohol to MJ only and even a 5% decrease in sales is huge when we are talking billions. I wish it was otherwise but that's the truth plain and simple...$$$$$$$ talks compassion and what's right walks:angrywife:


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## Puffin Afatty (Jun 9, 2008)

_I'm obviously very much in favor of legalization, particularly for growers :farm:  Prohibitions simply direct the resources the wrong way, mostly into oppressive and illegal enterprizes._

_let folks grow their own, smoke it and that's it.  nothing else need change._


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## mojosat (Jun 9, 2008)

LowRider said:
			
		

> that first part i would have to disagree just for the fact companies adapt a whole lot easier now a days and they can adapt within days or weeks if need be. You think Companies only do research here in the US??? hell look at the pharmaceutical companies already. there already making pills and sprays with it. there adapting. tobacco would get in on the business also. they already have the machines to roll cigarettes. Liquor, i won't even give that up even after pot is legal. And matter of fact just ask your friends. a L and a beer or drink of (liquor of choice) I'll be sleeping like a king. these are false statements spread by us for what ever reasons (my guess the tree huggers). Economics is what the free market is about. they would adapt if they see profit from it and if there isn't profit from it then they won't sell products made from it. Lets think before we spit this stupid **** out. I'm not saying this directly at you but to everyone as a whole.
> 
> as for that last part, MARRY CHRISTMAS!!!
> 
> Does this have a chance to be legal here in the US, it sure does. (alot will disagree cause they have lost hope). But lets look at it in a wider picture across the US. Look at Cali, they have shops going everyday selling it all across LA and other counties. Look at Oregon, they have there own Cannabis Cup. Look how many other states are starting to decriminalize it. Look at how many states are trying to legalize it for medical purposes. Is it going to be a slow process , YES without a doubt. But we have to keep the fight going.


 
There is ONE overseas company that I know of that is developing the spray, but it has yet to make one red cent in profit, is facing just as many hurdles legally as mm in the us, and it is funded by one VC. How long do you think that rug is gonna stay clean?

Your right though, it is an important step, because untill an economical alternative to smoking is developed, all the important medical minds are never going to get behind a reccomendation to SMOKE something to improve your health and or quality of life.


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## snuggles (Jun 10, 2008)

Look at the big picture, MJ is more than smoking it's all the compounds and how the cannabinoids react with our endocannabinoid system...it's an amazing plant. In fact I have heard that the more they learn about the cannabinoids and how they react with us, i.e. they can see how MJ and the cannabinoids in it are monitoring our "systems" like our appetite or reproduction or how it works with our body, so it is also showing them about our own body and how to fix or alter things. Hemp oil is also one of the healthiest things you can put in your body. MJ is like a utility player in baseball, it;s very well rounded and is teaching us things about us we never knew, how it bonds with receptors how it interacts with certain tumors, how it helps us to do all kinds of things...it's not just the smoke, and to top it off everything from the plant can be used...EVERYTHING. IMO it would help the enviornment, the social woes thing a bit, and the MM part. Like I said though it is teaching the world of medicine something completely new but the research is not very supported, I also think that Pharma is already acting on it and will get first dibs, why share it? It's an absolute shame it really is.


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## clanchattan (Jun 10, 2008)

The problem with mere decriminalization is that it doesn't addresss the fact that the decriminalized personal possessors must still obtain their marijuana from illegal sources. That isn't a satisfactory answer, because the most negative impact of using cannabis- both to the individual and to society- is continual contact with the world of career criminals and their associated behaviors. That factor that has only increased over time under Zero Tolerance, through a sort of Gresham's Law of Drug Dealing- the conditions of prohibition advantage career criminals with propensities toward violence and antisocial behavior at the expense of those who aren't willing to compete with violence and antisociality in return, or to risk ruinous legal penalties- people like amateur home growers of small quantities of cannabis. The drug dealers who most adopt the behaviors of career criminals are able and willing to adapt to threats like incarceration- that's part of the key to success in such a field, after all. And as a criminal vocation, the opportunities arising from profiteering through dealing in "substances presently declared illegal" is unmatched. 

The way to strike at the root of that societal problem is to remove as much of the customer base from the drug dealers as possible- which could be easily achieved in the case of marijuana, simply by allowing the cultivation of a few plants by a household. ( It certainly helps that as a cultivar, cannabis is less toxic than many house plants, much less tobacco.)

As for the other alternative, legalization- it's unnecessary, overly complicated to enact as law, and a political loser. Inevitably, working out the policy would involve a complex and fractious snarl of government bureaucracies, agencies, and lobbies- the FDA, the IRS, the insurance companies, various medical lobbies and their lawyers, and, of course, the private interests of corporate profiteers seeking to take over from the illegal dealers. A can of worms. And assuming that it could be worked out, the legal market could always be undercut by home cultivation- which I cynically suspect would remain illegal under any "legalization" program promulgated by the Federal government. Entirely possible that "legalization" would be a net loss, given that fact. If fact, I'm frankly sympathetic to some of the objections raised by opponents of the legalization of marijuana as an item of interstate commerce. I'm frankly worried that the legal "commercialization" of marijuana would probably look awfully foul in the hands of a government-licensed corporate oligopoly- especially if it simply followed along with the disingenuous propaganda campaigns presently pursued by the alcohol industry, and the psycho-pharmaceutical industry.


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## GeezerBudd (Jun 10, 2008)

clanchattan said:
			
		

> outlawed in 1937 to make way for Du Pont to monopolize the rope market.
> Nylon. no way if it were leagalized for the pharm corperations to make any money off of it. picture this... how many of you would support a bill that says its legal to be prescribed, owned(with a script), ingested, but not to begrown by the public. the only way for pharm./ govt. to genetate coin is to leave everyone here who grows it outside the legal blanket. unless there is a tax stamp, federal and state, oh wait..................there is and boy does that WORK.


 
Also to run the migrant workers out of California because alot of them used it.California wanted the feds to do it.Other states did'nt want the migrants coming to their state if it was Illegal in Ca. and not illegal in theirs.
Anslinger got the job.
He stood on the bank of the Potomac river and looked out over a field where the hemp plants went all the way to the horizon and asked himself "How in the hell am i going to do this?"
So there you have it-Lawmaking based on racism.

Gb


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## snuggles (Jun 10, 2008)

Sickening, I think we can also thank another guy...you know the politician who said "I am not a crook" he pushed the effort back again and he started the wonderful little organization called the DEA...In my mind he is the father of the modern drug war and yes he was a crook, he lied he cheated and he used a generation of young Americans to control them. The whole thing is sick and in todays day and age it's worse then ever. If people think it's getting better just look at the numbers for arrests they are going up, how is this getting better? The numbers are huge!!!!


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## POTUS (Jun 11, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> The whole thing is sick and in todays day and age it's worse then ever. If people think it's getting better just look at the numbers for arrests they are going up, how is this getting better? The numbers are huge!!!!


 
You're right, and yet, again this election in the USA, less than half of the people eligible to vote will do so.

Let's list the excuses:

1. It won't matter

2. It won't do any good.

3. They're all buttheads, why bother?

4. I'm having my nails done.

5. There was a really good football game on at the same time.

6. My horoscope said not to go outside today.

It always seems like those who whine the most never vote.

Starting on election day, lets start a thread for those who have bothered to get off their butts and actually TRY to do something about it.

A "Did you vote this time" thread with a poll that has "Yes" or "No".

The polls should have miles long lines waiting. Instead, people dribble in. I think the last numbers were still in the 30% bracket of people who voted.

Anyone have the actual numbers for the last vote?

It always sounds like a fat lady in the desert line. "I know I should, but I just don't for some reason". More excuses.

Hey everyone, quit making excuses and vote this time.

Surprise me.


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## snuggles (Jun 11, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> You're right, and yet, again this election in the USA, less than half of the people eligible to vote will do so.
> 
> Let's list the excuses:
> 
> ...


 
I like you Potus, I am 34 years old and not one of my friends, close friends has ever voted and they rip on me constantly...it's really sad. And then they look at me like an idiot when I do or I talk about politics. I have always voted, it's fun too IMO, although I always "throw away" my vote. And I hate the "why does it matter" excuse go vote go pick the guy/gal who makes you happiest. And yes I have friends that complain constantly it really is sad. One vote is one vote which is better than none IMO.

Does everyone here know how to get registered? It's not that hard and it doesn't hurt...:hitchair:


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## GreenThumbBlackFinger (Jun 11, 2008)

I can't vote because I have a drivers license different than the state I live in, even though i'm only 8 miles away. My friends always hassle me for wanting to vote (im finally old enough to vote this time) because they think "well im just one person so my vote doesnt matter" which is obviously a dumb way to look at it. 

Back to why MJ is illegal... imagine if they legalized it. Thousands of people would be out of work; police officers, DEA agents, narcotics officers, etc. Its obvious their #1 prey is MJ users because there are so many of them, why hunt down the meth labs when its easier to find people selling MJ? And since they all work for the government, of course the gvt. will back them 110%. Just my 2cents.


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## clanchattan (Jun 11, 2008)

voted all elections, every election, local, national, all. i was raised by two union workers, a union grandfather and a grandmother who was navy.
the most important thing any one, all of us can do is vote. the word ''duty''
in this forum should not be thought of as cow flops for nutes. voting is an obligation to this country and to yourself, your parents, your grandparents, sisters and brothers, children, nieces, and nephews. the reason we are relitivley free in this country is because 332 years ago a bunch of british subjects voted.


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## ISO2BWELL (Jun 11, 2008)

Thought alot about legalization, and what it would take to get us there.

First off, Medical MJ would need to get legal in a majority of states..we are slowly reaching that point. In time.

Second, we (the MJ community as a whole) are asking America to accept MJ, a BIG change for most of them, at least in reference to their own moral values.

So, we need to get them (those against legal MJ) to understand we are not a bunch of idiot druggies out here, and are likely among the very circle of friends they have.

We are going to need to give some too...like changing a few things about how grows are done in order not to offend non-smoking neighbors, etc.

We need to give America the same respect we are asking them to give us. BOTH sides are going to have to change..we need to clean up some of our act, and they need to see that we (the MJ community) are doing proactively to make it happen, responsibly.

Seriously, we are going to need to give, first, and second, we need all the professional people that also smoke MJ to "come out of the closet", so America can see that it is not the harmful, devilish substance they have been told it is.

If we want something from "them", they will want something from us. Be prepared to give as much as get. Legalization will be a 2 way street....we give, they give, and at first don't be surprised if we need to give more than them...but if we keep at it we can achieve the goal, no question. 

It's just a matter of when. 

JMHO

ISO


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## POTUS (Jun 11, 2008)

GreenThumbBlackFinger said:
			
		

> I can't vote because I have a drivers license different than the state I live in, even though i'm only 8 miles away.


 
Sure you can. Go to the nearest election headquarters near you and ask them how.

If nothing else, you can do a write-in vote.

Nothing is stoping you from voting. If you want to, you can.

Good luck to you.


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## pussum (Jun 12, 2008)

Not to start some absurd conspiracy theory, but I have always felt that MJ is illegal because it hit the country so hard and became so easily accessible that when it came time for lawmakers to decide if it was legal or not usage was already to a point where it had reached so many people that actually trying to tax it and make money off of it would have gotten them no where because people would riot in response to having to pay for something that they were already growing in their back yard. So instead of making their money off of taxing it and regulating it they make their money off of boning John Q. Anonymous, who has no history of criminal activity, with fees and fines and jail time and almost-free labor while in jail.

To top it off, they get all these people to stand behind them and rally against the plant while at the same time allowing these people to "donate" funds to them to help "fight the war". . . and line their pockets. If a cancer sufferer or a paralyzed person or an old person or even someone having trouble finding a way to relax and enjoy life can't toke away their pains every once in a while without having to worry about the threat of incarceration because they didn't "pay their dues to smoke(taxes)" then there is something incredibly wrong with this system and, in the US, the ideology of freedom is nothing more than a lie.


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## Dadgumit (Jun 12, 2008)

Today, I read some documents from the United Nations assemblies that were fundamental in the formulation of world drug control policies.  I encourage EVERYONE in the United States who has an interest in marijuana legislation to educate themselves on not just their respective state and/or federal criminal statutes, but on the international position the US plays in the global "war on drugs."  

These UN resolutions were adopted by the (then) 106 member nations/countries (with the US leading the charge) to establish that the they stand as a unified front (under a binding UN contract) to uphold the established mandates of a unified code of action to address the global drug trafficking and abuse problems.   With the ratification of this resolution the United States ceded proprietary control of its own federal drug laws to an international tribunal (Commision on Narcotic Drugs, Economic and Social Council of the UN and the International Narcotics Control Board) - so now we basically need international support to ammend or revise our own drug class schedule.  These three "independent" departments all get their directives from the World Health Organization...

Those documents are:

(1961)  The Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs
(1971)  The Convention on Psychotropic Substances
(1998)  The United Nations Convention on Illicit Traffic in Narcotic Drugs and Psychotropic Substances
(2004)  The United Nations Information Service Commision on Narcotic Drugs 
The World Health Organization - Facts and figures: Cannabis

I wanted to understand what the political status is of the current marijuana reclassification/legalization movement; determine what a first-step, post-reform US may look like; and assess just how entrenched the United States government is in its current stand on marijuana and I have to say that I was simply blown away by the degree of back-door, collusiive laws that were enacted by the predominate world governments to control the general public and maintain their economically-driven agendas.  

The 1998 above noted United Nations resolution was before a select group of invitees which was comprised of some "interesting" names, such as:

- International Catholic Child Bureau
- World Union of Catholic Women's Organiaztions
- Association of Democratic Jurors 
- Atomic Energy Agency (??)
- International Advertising Association
- International Pharmaceutical Federation
- International Council on Women
- International Federation of Business and Professional Women
- World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts 

When I began reading the full list of invitees I was wondering, "What the heck are some of these groups doing at a United Nations drug control convention?"  But by the second sentence of the first paragraph I knew why...that's where the document states that children are being used for illicit drug trafficking.  So commenced the modern day full-court press of the propaganda machine to globally demonize marijuana.  Included in NUMEROUS sections of the resolution are encouragements to member countries to allot sufficient "priority" (MONEY) to address this sinister evil.

**DID YOU KNOW:

1. That the UN has its own lab that provides scientific, pharmaceutical and laboratory services to its member nations as "investigative assistance?"
2. That the UN accepts monetary donations from special interest groups called "NGO's" (non gorvernmental organizations)?
3. That these same NGO's can submit policy recommendations?
4. That the DEA website openly calls "Marinol" (a sythetic prescription THC component) "medical marijuana"? (Even on the website they're arrogant.)
5. That the DEA website openly states that they helped facilitate the research on Marinol?

The structure of the UN act is such that marijuana would have to be reclassified as a level I substance in order to not completely violate the essence of the resolution and result in an international backlash - which would probably happen anyway because we have presented ourselves as so (bleeping) virtuous.  

1.  We could establish specific protocol for the purpose of educating, testing and licensing any adult over 25 that desires to grow marijuana, or make any substrate or derivative thereof, for personal or public manufacture and/or dispensation.  There could be a different set of criteria for the educational qualification and testing components of licensure for the personal grower than the "commercial" grower.

2.  Cultivation and dispensing facilities will be registered with the state's department of health (or an affiliate office).  

3.  Any adult over the age of 25 would apply for an ID card (with a photo and a unique serial number) in their respective state that would allow them to be registered and listed on a CONFIDENTIAL state database.  Just as with medical marijuana registration, the validity of an ID card could be confirmed with verification of the serial number with the state's central registry database - AND - just as there are different cards for a state ID and a state driver's license, there would be different cards for the personal and medical consumer.

4.  Each adult who wants to purchase marijuana for personal consumption only would be allowed to purchase from a state-regustered dispensary up to one (1) ounce every two weeks.  Medical marijuana consumers may purchase from a dispensary up to two (2) ounces every two (2) weeks.  Medical exceptions to the established allowable limits can be obtained with a valid recommendation from a physician (submitted on a state approved form) with whom an established doctor/patient relationship exists.  These quantity "exceptions" must be re-evaluated every three (3) months to determine their continued need.  At that time, a new form for "medical exception" must be submitted as that provision will automatically expire after ninety (90) days.

5.  Purchase/possession amounts do not carry over to the next purchasing "window".  Example: The purchase of 14g during one two week cycle does not allow the purchase of 1 1/2 oz during the next cycle.  HOWEVER - marijuana can be purchased in amounts from 1g up to the individuals maximum allowable limit within each two week cycle.  Smaller amounts can be purchased at the buyer's discretion up to the individuals maximum allowable limit within each two week cycle.

6.  A registered consumer can purchase from any dispensary licensed within their state.  If travellling to any state within the union, a document similar to a passport could be implemented to allow for small, exempted purchases within the visited state.  This exemption would be allowed for a limited time only. (You get where I'm going with this...)

6.  Approval or denial of a "medical exception" request will be made within seven (7) business days from the date the form was received.  If denied, and a supervisory review is requested, the review will be conducted and completed within seven (7) business days.  A request for a supervisory review must be received no later than fourteen (14) days from the date of the initial denial.  If the request for "medical exception" is again denied, a final request for case review can be submitted to the Registry Administrator.  This request must be received no later than fourteen (14) days from the date of the last denial.  The determination of the Registry Administrator will be made within five (5) business days and is considered final.  (**There's more to it, but its getting lengthy for a post!)        

7.  Marijuana (et al) must be kept in a locked container for storage.

8.  Any adult who operates a marijuana dispensary to the public would be subjected to independent state testing (dept. of health or affiliate office) for quality control purposes and compliance with state reporting mandates for sales, production, storage, waste, etc.  They would be taxed accordingly (state/county/municipal) and would require occupancy and fire certifications.

9.  An adult who wanted to purchase from a dispensary would: 1) present their registry ID card, as well as their state identification card/license to an authorized dispensary representative  2) have their card swiped to link with the central registry database  3) have their identity and information confirmed with central records  4) make their selection  5) pay for their selection  6) obtain their "Receipt of Valid Purchase" from the dispensary representative  7) leave happy!

This could be fleshed out out so much more but I'm tired!  The idea is to have a little give and take on both sides (again, as a first step) so that some progress can be made.  The state could keep their laws and get their tax money and we would get to consume marijuana in peace. 

Thanks for this thread - it is wonderfully thought provoking.


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## POTUS (Jun 13, 2008)

pussum said:
			
		

> in the US, the ideology of freedom is nothing more than a lie.


 
Sorry my friend, but by saying this, it makes it obvious that you've not been to many other countries.

In many, if you were to do nothing but say "This government sucks", you could and very likely, might be arrested and shot or imprisoned for the remainder of your life.

The USA is certainly not perfect, as no other country is either, but it is slowly getting better and better as the decades go by. I've lived slightly more than 7 decades and I've seen dozens of other countries. I've "been there, done that".

No country can say truthfully that it is "The Best", but the USA and many other countries are sure ahead of quite a few.

Freedom is based on the perspective of the viewer. Quite a lot of people in many countries would think that living without fear of some "government person" coming along and murdering their entire family in their small hut and having food for the entire family for the year would be freedom enough.

The life that is possible in most western countries is only a dream to those of lesser freedoms.

Please, think before you say something so outrageous as what you did about freedom in the USA. For your next vacation, go to China and travel outside the city. You will kiss the ground of the USA when you get back, IF you get back.

Thanks man. When someone says that freedom is not alive in the USA, it really bothers me.


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## pussum (Jun 13, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> Sorry my friend, but by saying this, it makes it obvious that you've not been to many other countries.
> 
> In many, if you were to do nothing but say "This government sucks", you could and very likely, might be arrested and shot or imprisoned for the remainder of your life.
> 
> ...



I've done multiple tours around the world during my 7 years in the military and I do very much agree with you wholeheartedly. At 18 years old I was forced to whitness things I would never wish upon another soul for as long as I live. I've seen attrocities against women in China, I've seen people dieing of aids in Africa (I saw 4 people die in one night as I was waiting for transport in the village), I've been to Vietnam and that was two weeks to long. I was a bit rilled up with snuggles arrest situation and just kind of went balls to the wall with what I was saying. For that I apologize. You are a very respectible person in this community so when you are bothered by what someone has said then it is serious. I did not mean to step on anyones toes with that remark and I very much respect you standing up for those rights and voicing your opinion.

Yes we do have freedom here in the states, and there isn't a day that goes by that I don't thank the fates that I was born on this soil and that my military service was done for this country, but at the same time it is upsetting to know that we are taught our entire lives that we are free to do what we want within certain guidlines but yet we are so confined one small step out of line nets you a heavy does of un-justified punishment. The rules are so bass-ackwards that it is sometimes hard to tell if you are coming or going. 

I realize at times we tend to forget just how much we have because it becomes an everyday thing that we all take for granted at some point in our life, but it just pains my heart to watch people like my grandparents and my wifes grandparents being forced to hide like murderers because they smoke. They don't rep the bloods or the crips, they don't gang bang, they don't steal or kill, they don't do anything of the sort yet because they smoke to help ease the pains of leaving this life they are lowered to the same level as a man who has commited a violent transgression against another or stolen good that did not belong to him.

The older I get the more I see all of these breaks and weaknesses within our system, and as we all know, buggers and bubble gum will only patch up the problems for so long before everything finally gives out.


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## POTUS (Jun 13, 2008)

Thanks for your post, pussum. The world today has a long way to go.

Hopefully, in a thousand years, there will be one people on the planet.

The people of Earth.

Once the ignorant tribal conflicts stop between the now primitive people of Earth, real laws can be set that really protect everyone and the silly laws can be done away with.

Borders are stupid. Dividing Earth up like a pizza is stupid.

One Earth. One people.

I wish I could live to see it.


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## pussum (Jun 13, 2008)

In my travels, I have seen that for as much as we all think we are different from one another we really are the same. A mother and father in Sri Lanka love their children just as much as a mother and father in Canada. A child afraid of the dark calls for their loved ones just the same whether they are in Alaska or Atlanta.

One world would be something to work for wouldn't it? That would be a very beautiful thing indeed. 

Start world peace right now. Pack a bowl and pass it to your neighbor. Let them hit the greens and give peace a chance!


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## POTUS (Jun 14, 2008)

pussum said:
			
		

> In my travels, I have seen that for as much as we all think we are different from one another we really are the same. A mother and father in Sri Lanka love their children just as much as a mother and father in Canada. A child afraid of the dark calls for their loved ones just the same whether they are in Alaska or Atlanta.


 
You've hit the proverbial nail directly on the head.

The working class of the world have no real differences in respect to what they desire. The differences are in how they are taught by the leaders to gain what they desire.

At face value, Communism sounds like a wonderful thing. Everyone equal, everyone sharing resources, everyone living at the same level that is gained by the combined work of the many.

In reality, that nasty little human factor of GREED sets in and destroys any good that Communism would provide.

In fact, under Communism, NO ONE is equal, NO ONE shares resources, and NO ONE lives at the same level because GREED rules the acts and results of the efforts of the masses.

I'm sorry to say that GREED isn't restricted to only Communism. It's a common trait in every type of society on our planet Earth.

There really is only one cure for Global Greed. That's a Global uprising that encompasses the populations of every country on our planet Earth.

Eventually, this will happen. When the people of Earth finally have had enough of the greed of their so-called representatives that make the rules, they'll overthrow them in a widespread, global tidal wave of relief.

The types of changes that are needed, can't happen gradually, because the people who make the rules won't let that happen. Each time the people make an inch of progress, the people who make the rules pull the floor out from under us by a mile.

China's recent abomination of power that showed their massive abuse and fear of the people and allowed them to actually beat and murder PRIESTS AND MONKS, show a wide-spread lack of approval throughout the people of China as well as the entire world of working class people.

The efforts of the false ideology of Islam in recent years shows the same results. The working class suffers the greed of the rulers.

Many examples of this World Class Greed are evident in the world today and have come to such an obvious level that the working class has a front row seat in the drama that has held them back for countless years.

Partially as a result of mass communication and high speed Internet information, the worlds working class are slowly coming together in the realization of their plight in the Global sense.

As I've said in a previous post, I think a pandemic is coming. This isn't a knee-jerk response to media hype, but an educated evaluation of recent happenings in the status of world health and how it's being handled.

When this pandemic happens, the global scale of misery and death will so overwhelm the ability to handle it, that I think a massive tidal wave of rebellion will take place on a scale never seen before.

At that time, the efforts of the working class will save the world from  bottoming out and will start a turn towards the global stabilization of efforts to bring the population of the world together in one overpowering move towards unification of strength.

The power of the world will be with the people, not the few greedy leaders who govern the world as we know it now.

I wish that this pandemic wouldn't happen, but it's name is "Bird Flu" and it's alive and well right this moment. It's altering it's own genetics and becoming something that will be the equivilant of nothing seen by mankind yet.

I believe that the tenth of the world that survives it will initiate the new form of Global Government that has been the desire of the people since the beginning of time.

The nine tenths of people who will die aren't equal geographically. The hardest hit will wipe out entire countries like Africa, India, Pakistan, China and others where the masses of the populace are under-fed, lack in proper health care ability and are kept directly under the thumbs of an oppressive leadership to keep them "In their place".

We now live in a time that is loaded with massive global tension. The load that is now in place on the working class has bent it's back to the point of breaking.

No wonder the young people are so dissatisfied with the world right now. It's reached a place of no return and the path it's taken is not peaceful.

We have a group of people here that are the exception to the rule.

We of Marijuana Passion have a common denominator that keeps us sane. We all De-Stress with our favorite mind relaxing plant of choice. Each of us has times each day that we throw out the tensions of the world and truly relax our minds and dream of the world to be.

We will be the leaders of the new world. 

We will decide what is best for us.

We will no longer let the greedy, self serving, power hungry few tell us what is good for us despite evidence of the contrary.

We are many.

They are few.

We will have our time.

***

I love you all and wish the best of luck to every one of my brothers and sisters here on MP.

Peace has to happen.

Peace will happen.

We will make it happen.


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## Runbyhemp (Jun 14, 2008)

> Eventually, this will happen. When the people of Earth finally have had enough of the greed of their so-called representatives that make the rules, they'll over-throw them in a wide-spread, global tidal wave of relief.



I'm not too sure about that one. Hundreds of years ago if people had grievences with the government, they could gather together with their pitchforks and have a "bloody revolution"

Pitchforks would be no use to us today. In this day and age any rising would be considered as "terrorism".



> We are many. They are few.



I think that our numbers will not make any difference. In the past, the method of dealing with numbers has been genocide.

I really do hope I'm wrong.


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## POTUS (Jun 14, 2008)

Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> I'm not too sure about that one. Hundreds of years ago if people had grievances with the government, they could gather together with their pitchforks and have a "bloody revolution"
> 
> Pitchforks would be no use to us. In this day and age any rising would be considered as "terrorism".


 
I should have made myself more clear. Today, the communication between the masses is so much more evident that the coordination of effort will be equally improved. Coordination of effort is what revolutions are all about. This has been proven with many successful revolutions in the last hundred years. "Go left" and "Watch your flank" are commands that can save a revolution. In the past, many revolutions that were attempted, failed as a result of the lack of this type of maneuvering information and logistical coordination.

When the time comes, the counter efforts of the Establishment won't matter much. Sure, they'll win some battles, but the war will be won by the people, not the few greedy leaders that exist today.

The "Pitch-Fork" will be more effective to the hundred-fold, and there will be millions more "Pitch-Forks".

The revolutionary leader in "Bumblesquat" Nevada will be on the phone to the revolutionary leader in "SquatnBumble" China.

They will learn. They will evolve thier efforts. They will adjust in minutes to what took years before.

In the end, we will win.


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## Dadgumit (Jun 14, 2008)

Amen Potus...  

I've read numerous posts of yours and you speak from a position of knowledge about world history and current events and expressed love for your fellow brothers/sisters (which resonates with me to my core) and I thank you from the botton of my heart for being one of the kind, enlightened souls that encourage us to believe that we can stand up straight and tall with our faces to the sun, after a lifetime of oppression that has caused us to question whether we can stand at all.

I, too, have observed the shift in global consciousness since the advent of the internet.  No one is isolated anymore - we are able to communicate and learn from each other rather than have our perceptions molded solely by the deliberate misinformation and political spin of our government's covert agendas.  We the general public can now formulate and voice our own opinions with each other; opinions which, as this site so adequately represents, are fundamentally different from what the current powers that be have contrived for us to believe.  

There is definitely a wave of change underway that is driven by the desire for all of us to understand and accept our unique individualities while embracing and nurturing our innate commonalities.  We now know that the desire to "form a more perfect union" is not a national or cultural phenomena, but a world-wide movement.

Avian influenza (bird-flu) has been predicted by many of the world's leading scientists to be the next great global pandemic.  The Centers for Disease Control and the World Health Organization websites state that bird-flu is rated as a 3 on the levels 1-6 "Phase of Alert" scale that they use to assess the degree of probability of a world health crisis.  Although I am hesitant to cite WHO reports because of their history of political bias in world health issues, I would agree with them on this.  Over the past twelve years there have been hundreds of reported (and probably thousands of unreported) cases of interspecies infection between humans and infected birds - and although you can look at the numbers and say that the infection of a few hundred peolpe over the course of over a decade isn't anything close to alarming - the fact that these viruses have had a recently direct and significant impact on global food supplies and can/have spread to other uninfected geographic areas via migratory birds cannot be ignored.  World economic conditions are already being affected as Europe and Asia's burgeoning beef inclusive diet is a substantive byproduct of the spread of the bird-flu viruses.  There is litlle understanding of how interspecies infection occurs and there is no known vaccine or cure.

I do believe that it would take a world-wide populous uprising against the current power structures to create a new and more humane world government, but I also think that a catastrophic event of near mass-extinction capabilities will probably occur; thus creating the de facto economic, environmental and social conditions that will obliterate present political paradigms and birth a brand new world.


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## pussum (Jun 15, 2008)

I think it is sad that in the constitution we have the right to raise up and over throw the government if we feel they aren't doing what they are supposed to do, yet we have allowed the government to weave so many laws into the constitution that if we were to actually raise up we would be held as terrorists and be put to death.

very sad what we have allowed to happen in the U.S.A..


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## POTUS (Jun 15, 2008)

pussum said:
			
		

> I think it is sad that in the constitution we have the right to raise up and over throw the government if we feel they aren't doing what they are supposed to do, yet we have allowed the government to weave so many laws into the constitution that if we were to actually raise up we would be held as terrorists and be put to death.
> 
> very sad what we have allowed to happen in the U.S.A..


 
If one were to "raise up" with weapons and try to take over the White house, then yes, you'd not survive the attempt. You'd be mowed down like a ripe wheat field.

However, if one follows the laws relating to protest and filing petitions, rallies and demonstrations, you can protest almost anything.

An example of this is how the despised KKK can file the appropriate paperwork and have a march through the center of any city, dressed to the hilt in their coned hats and white robes, shouting sociological obscenities.

The police actually PROTECT them as they march.

If you organize a march through downtown Washington D.C. with 5 thousand marijuana law protesters, you could carry signs, puff on huge fake joints, shout anti-prohibition slogans and scream at the top of your lungs about the unfair laws governing Marijuana.

Everything would be done in accordance with the existing laws of our society and would also BE UNDER THE PROTECTION OF THE POLICE.

What a laugh that would be.

We could have our own million person march.

Start setting it up for 2010. By then, you could have all the "i's" dotted and the "t's" crossed for a successful march.

I can guarantee you that it would be on CNN and every other media coverage that exists.

THAT, my friend is how to protest in a peaceful society.

You beat them at their own game.

You use their own laws against them.

You gain public attention by putting it IN THEIR FACE, legally.


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## clanchattan (Jun 15, 2008)

im in


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## clanchattan (Jun 15, 2008)

im about an hour from the district. idk about all 5000, but with enough tents i can sleep a couple hundred. i got acreage.


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## pussum (Jun 15, 2008)

Come on now, don't get me wrong. I wasn't saying lets all grab our oozies and go in guns blazing. hahah, that would be insane. There is a peaceful way to do anything in this world, but still. One step out of line if they don't like what you have to say and you could be persecuted.  . . just because.


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## clanchattan (Jun 15, 2008)

this country was founded by seditionists with guns........
is freedom worth your life?
or because we have freedom, are we complacent enough to have it leached away abit at a time while we rationilize the fact its being sucked away?


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## clanchattan (Jun 15, 2008)

google "the declaration of arbroath" written around 1310. the first appearance of constitutionilizm in history. over throwing a king if he subverts indivdual rights of the people. the king is responsible to, not for his subjects.
powerful piece of history.


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## POTUS (Jun 15, 2008)

pussum said:
			
		

> One step out of line if they don't like what you have to say and you could be persecuted. . . just because.


 
I believe that you're wrong in saying this. If it were so, then every single one of those disgusting KKK types would be arrested the moment they started shouting their crap.

There is a huge difference between shouting "I'll kill anyone who disagrees with me" and "Change the law to be fair to those who smoke Marijuana".

If one were to shout the first, then yes, they would and should be arrested for threatening to murder someone.

In the case of the second example, no violence was threatened. Only an opinion was shouted. That is perfectly legal and no cop in their right mind would arrest anyone who did so with the proper licencing in hand.

"One step out of line" would be anything that is NOT legal. That's easy to step around by simply NOT shouting or doing anything illegal. Both can be accomplished at the same time.

Just because they don't like your message, they can't arrest you. Besides, a smart protest contains many, many lawyers among the protesters.

Cameras, microphones, witnesses. This is what wins in a courtroom.

Peaceful protest is one of the most legal actions permitted in the USA.

The first "F" you to a cop and on go the cuffs. You have to keep it within the law.

The late Martin Luther King Jr. proved it beyond doubt. He helped bring protest to a fine art.

Peace


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## POTUS (Jun 15, 2008)

MARIJUANA DOESN'T KILL, YOU SOULD TRY IT, I SURE WILL!

MARIJUANA, TRY THAT SMOKE, PEACE WILL GRAB YOU WITH JUST A TOKE!

LEGAL WEED WILL FILL OUR NEED!



-Gimme some more-


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## snuggles (Jun 15, 2008)

You guys are coming up with some great stuff. I'm happy to see so many of you contributing...for now I watch I do not have the wisdom or know how that some of you have. I would love to see the day when things change but I have a feeling it will be quite a while...maybe just maybe though.

Also Potus I do agree with you...that bird flu is some scarey stuff and I fear the day that it mutates and runs rampant. I also think with all these enviornmental issues that someone somewhere will give in and make the right choice, we need to get back to basics IMO. It's OK to have technology but we seem to forget about the greatest force in all our lives...our planet but we need to wake up soon before it is too late.


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## Dadgumit (Jun 15, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I can guarantee you that it would be on CNN and every other media coverage that exists.


 
That would be fantastic - I know that I could contribute a bit to the headcount for that day!  When contemplating your idea I wondered what kind of "spin" the media would put on a rally such as this.  I mean, the US government doesn't have a high profile, multi-billion dollar, publicly postured position admonishing the EVILS of becoming a racist piece of crap - like they have against us.  

They have spun their web of lies concerning marijuana users well enough by making these overreaching, blanket statements about drugs in general that they just swept marijuana up with the generalized presentation that "drugs are bad, and if you do drugs you are bad too."  It isn't even the marketing that we are "bad", per se - its the assertion that we are morally wrong_ deviants_ and should be shunned by "respectable" society that is not just patently inappropriate, it's just plain wrong.  We are perceptually colonized like modern-day lepers.

Hmmm...  

If we could get everyone who participated in this march to dress professionally (as if going on a job interview) and conduct themselves accordingly, we would visually debunk the myth that marijuana smokers are either: burnt out, haven't-bathed-in-a-week, long-haired freaky people or gang-banging, thug-life living, threats to society as we have been stereotyped.   We need to conduct it more like a political convention rather than a "get together with fellow users" because that's what they think we do with all of our free time anyway!


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## POTUS (Jun 15, 2008)

The end of a march is always the time for speeches. That's the time to have a well spoken, media friendly, professional speaker make the points about Marijuana. That person, while on camera and microphones, could use an educated explanation of the legal tricks used by the anti-marijuana establishment to ban weed.

Crap like the tax stamp. Title it "Why the lie? This is how it started!"

The speaker would have the floor, so-to-speak, so have that person say what is on all of our minds.

It wouldn't be a debate. It would be our time and our time only.

If done in twenty cities at once, carefully planned and attended by at least 5,000 people at each location, it would cause a media splash that would be heard around the world.

Follow it up with well organized information rallies that are media attended as well.

That my friends is how it's done.

To paraphrase Patrick Swayze in "Road House", "Put the march in their face, but be polite. Have a excellent speech given, but be polite. Have lots of rallies, but be polite".

Show the world that we aren't the villains that the establishment makes us out to be.

One note; If one person comes out and says "I love to get good and high on weed and then take a drive", you've just lost the entire thing. The establishment is just waiting for some idiot to say something ignorant like that.

"I love to be high at work" "You've never lived until you fly high"

I've heard all three of those statements made by people who don't understand how stupid they're being and how they're hurting our cause.

If we don't want the Real Police to watch everything we do, then we have to police ourselves. When you hear a friend say he's wasted and going for a drive, take his keys away. Being stoned while guiding 3 tons of car down the road between other people is plain flat stupid.

One "Aw Crap" takes away 10 "Attaboys".

We can't afford to back up.

We need to watch out for each other.


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## snuggles (Jun 15, 2008)

*Follow it up with well organized information rallies that are media attended as well.*

I think there is a lot of information that the general public needs to know. I believe most people think it is a small issue but if you convince them otherwise I think it would be a good start. MJ/Hemp is a very important matter IMO, most people just think drug and/or Drag War. There are many people interested in politics all over the world and for different reasons, some of them may be social problems, the enviornment, healthcare, medicine, enviornmental, energy, crime, agriculture, war, human rights, religion, the economy, The Drug War etc. etc. blah blah blah

I am one of those people that believes MJ/Hemp touches all these issues. If we could convince people that all of the above could be greatly affected by legalization and in a good way. Convince them that it is a blanket issue covering all sorts of areas. Convince them that really is just a plant but not just any plant...a dangerous plant to the powers that be. Perhaps the one of the most important plants that was put here for us. Explain what the War on MJ/Hemp is really about and the consequences, how these lead to social woes and a cycle of crime, broken lives, broken families, etc. and the people that gain from all of this. Explain the enviornmental consequences of no Hemp, and what benefits it would bring if legalized. Explain that it could be an excellent way for farmers to really earn what they deserve. Explain to people that we would no longer be dependent on others for things like oil, leading to less "conflict". There are so many ways to approach the whole thing it truly is an amazing plant. explain to people that it can be used for medicine, we are finding out more about it everyday but not fast enough IMO. Basically I guess what I am trying to say is make it a blanket issue, make the informational rallies a well rounded affair, having something for everyone. Explain who the people are in charge of the wanton destruction and unneeded punishment, who gains and why it's really bad. It's not that hard to demonize these so called crusader of justice once the people see what they really have to gain. Let the general public know why we also don't like drug dealers and thuggish violent criminals, and how some profit from this crazy cycle. Explain to people that it is not a voodoo medicine but a very real and affordable option for their loved ones, and explain why pharma is needed but why they are wrong and how they treat us and our loved ones like meat. There is so much to learn and I think that is also a huge part of my obsession with it, hey I like to get high, I am into gardening and the earth. Also people need to realize we are being forced into a chemical society, nature is being made to be a joke, why synthsize everything under the sun when we have all we need already. Tell them why we are living like this and why we are being forced into it, who's behind it and why. Explain to them how it is actually influencing the way some researchers are approaching medicine. i.e. how we have discovered cannabinoids, the endocannabinoid system, etc. and how they interact with one another, how this could be used to actually have different approaches to treating sick people. Explain to them that we indeed do have a relationship and are supposed to have a relationship with MJ/Hemp, just like we do with all the veggies. I mean it's astounding what the cannbinoid thing is teaching us about ourselves, the endocannabinoid system actually monitors how our body "does" certain things. How it is infinitely safer than our medicine cabinets, if people are so concerned about their children then why don't they make medicine cabinets with locks on them? I'm not very good at this kind of thing, and even worse at getting it out of my head and on screen the way I intended but I tried LOL. It is such a huge all encompassing issue...HUGE think big REAL BIG. One day it would be great to see people open up their eyes and see the truth, they just need that nudge sometimes


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## Dadgumit (Jun 16, 2008)

I for one want to find out more on NORML (I haven't informed myself near enough about them) because I am really moved by this issue.  I don't know, maybe it's because I'm getting old(er) that I've become quite passionate about our government and the political games that they play that affect the overall health and welfare of everyone (I'm over being shocked by anything that they do.)  Now, I am just literally _*disgusted*_ by how far this country has strayed from the path that so many of us believe she should/could be on.  

The very foundation of our being is built on the right that there are certain freedoms on decisions of personal choice that *cannot* be taken away.  There is great passion about this because no personal decision should be subjected to the will or "approval" of another because that violates the primary truth of all existence that "all men are created equal."  Thomas Paine (1731-1809) wrote in _"The Rights of Man"_ (1791) that "It is a perversion of terms to say that a charter gives rights.  It operates by a contrary effect - by taking rights away.  Rights are inherently in all the inhabitants, but charters, by annulling those rights, in the majority, leave the right by exclusion, in the hands of a few...  They...consequently, are instruments of injustice."  

Snuggles, POTUS - you know I'm on board with you 100%.  We DESPERATELY need to get EDUCATED AND MOTIVATED about what the truth is and how we can help spread it for there is work to be done!  But lets not forget to include information/education about the reality of our "rights" in this "What's The Truth?" movement...  The one remaining right that we have that truly bears any weight in the political world is the right to vote and thus change the direction of our government by majority rule.


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## pussum (Jun 16, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I believe that you're wrong in saying this. If it were so, then every single one of those disgusting KKK types would be arrested the moment they started shouting their crap.
> 
> There is a huge difference between shouting "I'll kill anyone who disagrees with me" and "Change the law to be fair to those who smoke Marijuana".
> 
> ...


[FONT=&quot]
Are you seriously going to sit there and tell me that people who rise up and get vocal are not considered threats or targets and aren't persecuted for rising up against the power? You spoke of Martin Luther King Jr. who was immensely persecuted throughout his entire life and in the end was assassinated for what he was standing up for. No matter how many legal hoops everyone jumped and jumps through to ensure they are within the legal bounds of protest, the government (or someone else) will find ways to shut you up if what you say doesn't go with their plans. At that point, once you are in the spotlight they can't jump at you directly, but you better believe they will jump at you from every other side imaginable until they can find some sort of weakness in your defense and get you taken out of the picture. If you think that to be an inconceivable possibility I say you don't have your eyes open to reality. 

One step out of line doesn't have to be anything illegal. We like to believe we do, but ultimately we do not make "the line". The government does. Because of that they can change the line, move the line, erase the line, and completely rewrite the line if they want to without anyone in the general population finding out. Before the birth of the internet and widespread communications how many laws do you think passed that were snuck into other bills that were only put there to further a politicians agenda? Granted now we have ways of finding these little hidden laws that are attached to bills and rallying against them, but the point remains the same. All the legal making and breaking and rewriting is done in congress, and for the most part, we as a population are still not quite aware of what goes on behind those doors. There is no law that says our representatives have to go door to door and tell us what they are doing down in Washington. Since everything they do down there is public domain anyway they crutch on that and say "it was made public why didn't you say something when the bill was on the table?" when we complain about the laws. 

If someone were to gain enough power that the majority was starting to follow him and not what the government wanted how easy would it be to find a way to call them a terrorist as defined by the ever broadening definition set forth by the patriot act and have them put away? They may have gone about doing everything legally, but if acts outside their power start occurring that fringe or actually transcend into illegal activities, and are done in their name, the courts can and possibly will hold him as the figure head. They can spin the opinions of who ever they want and next thing you know this figure head who never once broke the law in his protest is all of a sudden being held as a terrorist threat and being sentenced to death or life or being put behind bars or being punished in some shape or another.

I feel as though I am getting off onto a tangent so I will just reiterate my point. They may not be able to get someone at face value for protesting or rising up and doing everything legally, but with a little digging, and a little creative interpretation of the laws, they could put just about anyone away if they wanted to. No matter if what they did was legal or not. It is the same thing they do in jails. They may not get a suspect on murder, but "oops we found something completely non-related that will get him put out of the picture anyway so win/win for us".[/FONT]

EDIT:

I am not sure why my text came out so strange, but as long as it is still read-able. Anyway, I am greatly anticipating your response. So far out of the people I have spoken with both in the real world and on the internet you are the only one who has posed a solid argument that didn't resort to childish name calling. I'm hoping for one hell of a counterpoint on your end so don't let me down POTUS!


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## snuggles (Jun 16, 2008)

Get as ramnty and off tangent as you want...that's why this thread was started...also it's nice to grow a plant but it's also nice to learn about it and discuss it IMO, so kudos to everyone who takes part...use your brain that's what it is there for...and I do agree with you pussum. I'm white and MLK is one of my idols, he was a bad dude, just like Ghandi and Jesus (I'm not a believer BTW). Bad dudes do it the right way, they turn the other cheek IMO.


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## Dadgumit (Jun 16, 2008)

I wish I could disagree with you pussum, but the unpredictable nature of our government has made us even more afraid of the known factors...

When some friends of mine and I would get together and talk about things such as this, at some point during the conversation someone would always ask, "Okay - so who is prepared to be a martyr?" 

Who among us is willing to rise above their fear of a future unknown and breathe new life into the common people and renew their belief in the rights and power that they possess??  

I don't know, but it seems about ripe for that time...


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## BBFan (Jun 16, 2008)

Dadgumit said:
			
		

> I wish I could disagree with you pussum, but the unpredictable nature of our government has made us even more afraid of the known factors...
> 
> When some friends of mine and I would get together and talk about things such as this, at some point during the conversation someone would always ask, "Okay - so who is prepared to be a martyr?"
> 
> ...


 
You volunteering Dadgumit?


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## POTUS (Jun 16, 2008)

pussum said:
			
		

> I'm hoping for one hell of a counterpoint on your end so don't let me down POTUS!


 
I do have a lot to say about the points you covered, pussum, but I've had a bum foot for a couple of days and had to be on it most of today. My whole body is screamin right now so I'm gonna take some tokes and crash.

I have to be up and around again in the morning, so hopefully a good nights sleep and being off that foot will make it better tomorrow.

I'll try to answer your post tomorrow. It's well stated and you make a good argument.

nite'


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## pussum (Jun 16, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I do have a lot to say about the points you covered, pussum, but I've had a bum foot for a couple of days and had to be on it most of today. My whole body is screamin right now so I'm gonna take some tokes and crash.
> 
> I have to be up and around again in the morning, so hopefully a good nights sleep and being off that foot will make it better tomorrow.
> 
> ...



Bummer man. I hope your foot feels better. Take two bowls and call me in the morning. 

I also find alternating between a cold compress and a hot one helps ease the tension, I have two partially severed achilies tendons. I know how that goes, believe me.


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## Dadgumit (Jun 16, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I do have a lot to say about the points you covered, pussum, but I've had a bum foot for a couple of days and had to be on it most of today. My whole body is screamin right now so I'm gonna take some tokes and crash.
> 
> I have to be up and around again in the morning, so hopefully a good nights sleep and being off that foot will make it better tomorrow.
> 
> ...


 
Sorry you're not feeling well POTUS...  Take care of yourself (Ibuprofen, compresses, elevation - you and your leg! lol) and we'll talk soon. 

And BBFan, you just never know! LOL


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## BBFan (Jun 17, 2008)

The 4 of you are all making excellent points.  It seems this thread has evolved from a legalization of MJ discussion to a worldwide movement resulting in changes to the very foundations that the world community (as individual entities but essentially on a global scale) is based upon.  Pandemics, revolutions, plagues; these things have occurred in our world&#8217;s history, and ultimately an individual or small group has risen to lead the masses towards a perceived (or marketed) &#8220;greater good.&#8221;  And from there, what started out as a movement for the masses has evolved (or should I say devolved) into efforts to control the populations based on the beliefs- or greed and self-serving agendas- of the few.  The United States was started because those people, among many other things, got tired of supporting a political agenda that did not serve the needs of the people in the colonies.  And where is the US today?  No different from what they broke away from.

Information technology and the movement of information is having a major impact on the world.  It has happened in our lifetime.  But it still has a long way to go.  Information will need to move instantaneously to have the effect that would be required to initiate great change.  And it must get to everyone!  Not hyperbole, opinion, or propaganda, but information.  I think that is still a ways away.

The thought or belief that we are all essentially the same or have common innate beliefs is probably true, I don&#8217;t know.  But we are all products of our environments and all of our environments have differences.  Some people in this world believe that someone is different, sometimes inferior, to themselves simply because of the color of their skin or their religious belief or even the way they speak!  As foreign and disgusting as that is to my sensibilities, those people believe it.  It is an essential component of who they are.  My brother recently changed religions, and is now so convinced that he has found the &#8220;right&#8221; belief, the rest of us are ignorant because we believe in something different.  This is a rational, educated person- but he is right and we are wrong.  Education.  Baby steps.  Information!

MJ has been lumped into the class of &#8220;Drugs&#8221;.  And our population is and continues to be inundated, from a very early age, with the &#8220;truism&#8221; that &#8220;drugs&#8221; and &#8220;evil&#8221; are synonymous.  Education, as has been said, is the key here in my opinion.  Is MJ not evil, but cocaine and heroin are?  Where is that line (the one that keeps getting moved)?  Recreational use and medicinal use are two completely different arguments.  That for medicinal purposes MJ is illegal is an abomination.  For recreational use, as my use is, is a different issue.  Am I hurting myself by using it, I&#8217;m not sure, probably, but then what doesn&#8217;t hurt us on some level, but it helps me (or perhaps I just enjoy it) and therefore I continue to use it.  That is my choice and I risk the consequences of my actions.  Oh to enjoy that freedom!

Baby steps.  We must educate, and be educated, about MJ and its risks so that we may make our own informed decisions.  Ignorance is rampant on this issue, as many of you have stated.  When that education gets to the masses, then there will be change.

As posted by Dadgumit:
&#8220;If we could get everyone who participated in this march to dress professionally (as if going on a job interview) and conduct themselves accordingly, we would visually debunk the myth that marijuana smokers are either: burnt out, haven't-bathed-in-a-week, long-haired freaky people or gang-banging, thug-life living, threats to society as we have been stereotyped. We need to conduct it more like a political convention rather than a "get together with fellow users" because that's what they think we do with all of our free time anyway!&#8221;

Count me in!  Thank you all for your thoughts and posts.  This thread alone shows that we, the evil users of MJ are actually an intelligent group, regular people, no different from anyone else.  As Potus said:  &#8220;Show the world that we aren't the villains that the establishment makes us out to be&#8221;.  I am obviously not as well informed as some of you are, but thank you for the opportunity to voice my thoughts.  This has been a great read.


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## snuggles (Jun 17, 2008)

Wow that was pretty good BBfan, there are more than 4 people posting. I would love to see more, who cares how small or what you really know...it's good practice. Speak up please.

LOL on a side note, many of you know that my relationship with my gmom has been strained over my beliefs and the passing of my mom and her daughter. She was ignorant, she is a sweet lady but she believes everything the gov't tells her...the world is a different place she says cause of all the crime and us young people LOL, gov't is good kinda stuff. She thinks I use my mom to promote drugs LOL, for those that don't know she had breast cancer and almost all of us know about the big C and MJ. I take it all personally, this is why I don't like cops, what are they doing? I mean in my job there are certain things I won't do, like fix printers LOL. But in all seriousness when I hear a cop talk about the MJ I get upset and I have to think some of them are not to keen on anti MJ cause they know it helps, but make a stand. Ok back on point, gmom has been mad at me for quite sometime..well she woke me up at 7am, I thought something was wrong, all she said was I'm sorry for not believeing in my grandson, I said huh...I was talking to my neighbors and they were talking about how their daughter uses it out in Oregon to help with chemo....one person at a time Mom Mom is getting an info package in the mail from your truly, she sounded excited and I feel great, but it does raise the question of why the neighbors and not your grandson LOL. BTW my gmom taught half of what I know about gardening her husband (RIP) taught me the other half, she is a good person but just ignorant and I feel that many people are like this.

People it starts with your friends and family, tell them you love them don't push but guide...i.e. the info packet I am sending is the start and I have left her with the beginnings of her education into the most wonderful plant on earth...I can't wait to talk to her more. She actually said she is proud of me for sticking by my guns even when half my family thinks I'm Satan LOL. It can work just don't force it.


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## pussum (Jun 17, 2008)

Hey, I am glad to see she is coming around. Do not take it personally because sometimes people need someone from outside of their circle to bring the information to light for it to click in their head. It is not a matter of her not believing in YOU it is a matter of her needing someone that she would feel is on an adult level with her telling her the information all over again. 

She has always been in a position where she was the adult and you were the child. Now that you are your own person it was most likely really hard for her to accept that fact and as a result she wasn't willing to accept what you were telling her. Top it off with all the family related stress and problems and I am sure she was more than a handful to deal with.

All that matters is that she is slowly starting to realize the truth.


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## snuggles (Jun 17, 2008)

pussum said:
			
		

> Hey, I am glad to see she is coming around. Do not take it personally because sometimes people need someone from outside of their circle to bring the information to light for it to click in their head. It is not a matter of her not believing in YOU it is a matter of her needing someone that she would feel is on an adult level with her telling her the information all over again.
> 
> She has always been in a position where she was the adult and you were the child. Now that you are your own person it was most likely really hard for her to accept that fact and as a result she wasn't willing to accept what you were telling her. Top it off with all the family related stress and problems and I am sure she was more than a handful to deal with.
> 
> All that matters is that she is slowly starting to realize the truth.


 
Yeah she has had a tough road, she lost her oldest child who was still too young and her husband. She is stuck 45-60 minutes away from me, used to be 5 minutes and now she is up there alone. It is sad, when my mom was told she had it in her liver my grandmother thought she could donate her liver...it was sad, we had to explain you only have one liver blah blah blah. I think part of the problem is me, I'm one of those fiery italian types and she's my non italian gmom LOL. I take the whole thing personally hence my previous mention of hatred for the cops...I could have helped her not suffer as much but I would have broken the law and my mom wouldn't have had it, those boundaries caused my mom and many like her to really suffer. 

And one thing I will never forget is those last couple of days, you know the days where they pump them so full of morphine they have no idea what is going on...why is it OK then? Like I said when it comes to my mom NOONE has the right to stop you from doing whatever it takes, these are our mothers, it ripped my heart out and definitely made me who I am today, I'm still a mammas boy. I mean c'mon most mothers give up their lives for their children, I know mine did and she did a damn good job...I lack in common sense and she knew that LOL. And my grnadmother always saiys what happened to my grnadson? Well I have an education and I'm 34 lost my whole family to the big C and watched everyone of them waste away, get the same medicines (different cancers), get the same operations, etc. and then I watched my 56 year old mother die in a nursing home feeling completely helpless I battled with her for 13 years, I'm not quite sure I know how to stop maybe that is my problem, but she was the most important person in my life...hence mt new found meaning of my life, help others and be a decent HUMAN BEING.


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## pussum (Jun 17, 2008)

I had a whole huge thing typed out about modern medicine and what not, but I think, the words in that last post do not need to be followed by a rant. You paint a very sad, but beautiful picture as you, a man who has been kicked in the teeth more times than he can count, still have the courage to go out there and fight the good fight and stand firm in your beliefs while desperately trying to make the world a little bit better of a place to live in.


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## snuggles (Jun 17, 2008)

pussum said:
			
		

> I had a whole huge thing typed out about modern medicine and what not, but I think, the words in that last post do not need to be followed by a rant. You paint a very sad, but beautiful picture as you, a man who has been kicked in the teeth more times than he can count, still have the courage to go out there and fight the good fight and stand firm in your beliefs while desperately trying to make the world a little bit better of a place to live in.


 
Rant all you want, mine was a rant LOL. you will not offend anyone if that is what is worrying you, thank you but it is truly how I feel if no one else will stand up for her I HAVE TO it's called being a son.


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## pussum (Jun 17, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> Rant all you want, mine was a rant LOL. you will not offend anyone if that is what is worrying you, thank you but it is truly how I feel if no one else will stand up for her I HAVE TO it's called being a son.



No no no, I am not worried about stepping on toes or hurting feelings. I was just saying that out of respect, that post deserves to be read and absorbed. Because, even though it is a rant, it is touching and shows that we, the users of MJ, are not monsters. We are people. People with everyday lives and problems. People who know that their isn't a cure for what plagues the world, but MJ is a damn good start. That post shouldn't be followed up by a long rant where someone will have to forget what you wrote and immediately try to focus on what I was saying. Your post deserves to be read and respected.


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## Dadgumit (Jun 17, 2008)

Snuggles, I am so sorry for the pain you must have felt and still feel...how wonderful though, that this new purpose and zest for life that you have now, found its inspiration in love...

I'm sure your mother is very proud of her son...


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## snuggles (Jun 18, 2008)

Dadgumit said:
			
		

> Snuggles, I am so sorry for the pain you must have felt and still feel...how wonderful though, that this new purpose and zest for life that you have now, found its inspiration in love...
> 
> I'm sure your mother is very proud of her son...


 Her name was Gail and she was a great understanding person and she taught me so much even to this very day and she led by example. A couple weeks before she died she had a job for me, I was to find my real father and my stepfather and I was supposed to tell them about her, well they both showed up, on different days of course, she told them she loved them and all that jazz...she showed me how to let go of hatred to not complain and to be a man. My real father and I had a very short relationship (RIP) and I see my stepfather monthly now. Even in death people still teach us and we should all honor them by living our lives to the fullest, and one day we can only hope we all make this a better world, even if it means civil disobedience...it is our duty as Americans and as friends and family.

OK back on topic LOL, it's a beautiful day here and I plan to enjoy it...


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## Budboy (Jun 18, 2008)

Here is part of my research paper for school:hitchair: on the legalization of marijuana :holysheep: Studies have found that the legalization could have major economic benefits. The government would not only be saving money the money that would normally be spent on enforcement of the prohibition, which is estimated at $7.7 Billion. $5.3 billion would go to the state/local governments while $2.4 Billion would go to the federal government. Also if marijuana was placed under sales tax, it would bring in $2.4 Billion; but if it was taxed next to alcohol and tobacco, the revenue would be $6.2 Billion. Altogether taxpayers would be saving $10-$15 Billion. Not to mention the hemp industry that would open up as result of legalization. While legalization should not be based entirely on the economic benefits, there is a large enough revenue that the laws should be rethought. Along with economic benefits there are also social advantages. In a report conducted in December of 2006, it states that there are over 2.2 million people held in federal state and local prisons. In a separate study, analysts say that the legalization of marijuana would not only reduce the amount of people entering the prison system for marijuana related arrests, but would also cause the amount of violent drug related crime to decrease.


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## snuggles (Jun 18, 2008)

Budboy said:
			
		

> Here is part of my research paper for school:hitchair: on the legalization of marijuana :holysheep: Studies have found that the legalization could have major economic benefits. The government would not only be saving money the money that would normally be spent on enforcement of the prohibition, which is estimated at $7.7 Billion. $5.3 billion would go to the state/local governments while $2.4 Billion would go to the federal government. Also if marijuana was placed under sales tax, it would bring in $2.4 Billion; but if it was taxed next to alcohol and tobacco, the revenue would be $6.2 Billion. Altogether taxpayers would be saving $10-$15 Billion. Not to mention the hemp industry that would open up as result of legalization. While legalization should not be based entirely on the economic benefits, there is a large enough revenue that the laws should be rethought. Along with economic benefits there are also social advantages. In a report conducted in December of 2006, it states that there are over 2.2 million people held in federal state and local prisons. In a separate study, analysts say that the legalization of marijuana would not only reduce the amount of people entering the prison system for marijuana related arrests, but would also cause the amount of violent drug related crime to decrease.


 
I hope it's for college LOL. Also ask yourself this Budboy, who makes the money off of it being illegal that is the other part of the problem. In other words who benefits and why? Good luck with that paper BTW. I miss school


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## Budboy (Jun 18, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> I hope it's for college LOL. Also ask yourself this Budboy, who makes the money off of it being illegal that is the other part of the problem. In other words who benefits and why? Good luck with that paper BTW. I miss school


 
Actually it was for 10th grade english a while ago. another part of my paper i didnt put, was because it is on the black market, all the money people use to buy it is drained out of the local economy taking away from people who make an honest living.


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## ChatNoir (Jun 18, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> I hope it's for college LOL. Also ask yourself this Budboy, who makes the money off of it being illegal that is the other part of the problem. In other words who benefits and why? Good luck with that paper BTW. I miss school



I can answer this question as well, for my country, Turkey.

Nearly 80% of the population between 15 and 25 at least used Cannabis once, nearly 60% of the population between 17 and 24 is smoking on weekly basis. There is a HUGE market here and this market is led by one major hand, PKK Terorist Organisation (which USA, Germany, United Kingdom protect and sell weapons to). Death count is 30,000 which more than half of these are citisens, not soldiers.

All the money flow into terrorism, in other countries, it is divided between gangs, terrorists and mafia.

I believe, there is hope for USA, Canada and for some other first world countries. Cannabis will be decriminalised and maybe legalised in next ten years but for middle eastern countries... Major powers in the world need terrorism so it is beyond any hope.

Well, I ranted a little but lost so many people to terrorism and war... All because of politicians...

No offence and peace.


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## nikimadritista (Jun 19, 2008)

I was once asked by some TV reporters on te street - What do I think about legalization of canabis  - The dream question  
I spoke for about ten minutes telling the TV people how good and positive it can be to actually do that, a real good speach I gave... Or so I thought...
Later that same day I was on The evening news, I was given about two seconds on the drugs report, and they made me sound like a jerk who thinks weed is related to heroin :hubba: 
I was so upset... It wasnt what I said at all... I was about 20 years old and will never forget this day.. It was so humiliating...
I than realized that if you own the media you can do anything... Today I still believe the only way to legalize MJ is to take control of the mainstream media, and that in my Home country of Bulgaria is owned by One single company and strictly controlled by the government... Or the leading party lets say... Though it might appear as democracy to some, Bulgaria is a long way from that in reality... People are so fed up of corrupted polititans that no one bothers voting in the first place and thats where we can beat them... If I can get enough cash for a good campain and manage to get all stoners to the polls I guess I might be able to win an election - cause yes Bulgaria is full of stoners - than get hold of the media, and after a couple of years in office make history - Legalize Marijuana  
It could be done.. We just need a lot of cash and good campaining... And a lot more cash...
Unfortunately people who have the cash arent really interested in doing any good... They all seem to try and make it even worse for us... Its a real sad world we live in....
Time has come for revolution!!!


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## iiq van condet (Jun 19, 2008)

land, watter, and plant is belongs to evryone,,,,


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## snuggles (Jun 19, 2008)

iiq van condet said:
			
		

> land, watter, and plant is belongs to evryone,,,,


 
I agree.

Even though you guys in Bulgaria and Turkey think it's different here...it's really not, we have a skewed media too. We have all kinds of corporate sponsors too, they can affect what the media run and don't run. For instance over here even if we had the money and put together a campaign of MJ education and wanted to use the TV for commercials it wouldn't fly. Let's just say Coke was the sponsor, they might say you can't run that commercial it will make us look bad and if you do we aren't going to advertise with you anymore....LOL it's silly. Do you guys have a lot of Prescription Drug commercials, they are very common here and they make me chuckle cause now they have to list side effects and it's just funny to hear how you can get rid of your allergies, and at the same time spontaneously combust, blow a heart valve, or suffer total renal failure all the while they have this nice soothing music playing and it is just plian funny sometimes. But MJ is dangerous cause it might make you dizzy or drowsy and that's horrible:hitchair:


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## allgrownup (Jun 21, 2008)

I was at a very interesting educational class today(in CA).  Anyway, it was "law enforcement" topic and main points of interests were gang task force and drug task force.

very informational.  gang **** was crazy but childish.....

when they got to the drug portion they talked about all the mainstream traffic'd drugs.  When they got to marijuana the agent says......Marijuana....sheesh......what a mess.  With the prop 215 and bill 420 just about everyone who wants a card can get one.  so everybody and there gramma is growin this sheet now LOL we all laughed at his candidness.

His moral was destroyed and you could tell it was killin him to talk about it. lol

Basically said that most small operations are of no concern and they dont care.  they are off the radar as their resources are all focused on big bust efforts .  the way i interpreted this with a grin on my face.....small responsible growers dont have much to worry bout. 

peace


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## ChatNoir (Jun 23, 2008)

think tank


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