# Pondering about hermies...



## ishnish (Apr 8, 2012)

Straight to the point:  Recently I had one herm on me, about 250 beans in 4 oz.  
While picking through the buds and removing the seeds I noticed some of the seed pods had two seeds within and I began to wonder if it's possible that nature, in some way, is trying to restore a natural balance.  That is, one male and one female seed in the one pod..
I set those seeds aside to test at a later time but unfortunately they got mixed with the rest..

So I guess the question is, Have others had these twin bean situations before?  I suppose it could have been twin hermies..

Does anyone think it to be possible to breed out the hermie gene?


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## OGKushman (Apr 8, 2012)

Simple answer is this is strain dependent. Stacking calyxes will have more then one pistil and multiple "hairs" coming out of them. A standard calyx only has 2 hairs and one pistil.

I know this because true OG always stacks calyxes...like this (pic attached) notice is has 4 hairs (and the one below it has 2) growing out of one calyx at one node, this is a trait of all the OGs I have seen...plus a few other strains like Jack Herer.

*And please for the love of god DESTROY all the seeds. Its been my experience that hermies don't breed out. They get even more herm.


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## Rosebud (Apr 8, 2012)

Nice picture.


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## OGKushman (Apr 8, 2012)

thanks!
that was 4 weeks in on the SFV...stacking calyxes is the ONLY reason I still grow it for patients. If it didn't stack, I would lose far to much $ as the OG is just not a big producer and a grower really counts on the final few weeks for the buds to literally double in size and weight.


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## ishnish (Apr 8, 2012)

OGKushman said:
			
		

> *And please for the love of god DESTROY all the seeds. Its been my experience that hermies don't breed out. They get even more herm.



The beans shall be disposed of in an environmentally safe manner.

I appreciate your input.  I don't have the space to try any kinda of breeding so I'll just order me some fresh beans.


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## Rosebud (Apr 8, 2012)

Green mojo for your grow ishnish!


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## OGKushman (Apr 8, 2012)

Mojo for sure! If you get a male seed (pure male), save some pollen and make some seeds!


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## Hick (Apr 9, 2012)

> The beans shall be disposed of in an environmentally safe manner.


:rofl:....:aok:


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## resin-reaper (Apr 9, 2012)

You know fem seeds that companies sell are from herm plants?

Bit of hermophobia going on here...


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## Hick (Apr 9, 2012)

uhoh.......  f
"femmed" seeds are NOT _just_ hermie seeds.. not quality ones anyway. AND "hermophobia" is DEFINITELY alive and well here. 
The "real" _Breeders_... that produced the high quality genetics that are being used for the basis of much..(uhhumm) breeding today, worked diligently to breed away from, to breed OUT the hermy characteristic. Because 'they' knew it is a very _UNdesirable_ and potentially, detrimental characteristic in 'drug quality' marijuana.   
_*"Hermies procreate hermies"*_


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## resin-reaper (Apr 9, 2012)

Mate I don't see your point?

Fem seeds are bred away from being herm? Yeah and regular seeds are bred towards being a herm? Nope

So if you get a herm seed from a regular plant- what's the difference between that and a plant where the herm was deliberately induced?

Like i already said- femenized seeds are from herm plants. How they herm'd is not really relevant other than it wasn't a genetic tendency. Most the herm that people see is not a genetic trait that come out (like you said, breeders try to breed it out so it's not what you are buying) but rather a reaction to the environment they are growing in.

Most people battle their humidity and temperature but on top of that there are scores of people who dump truck loads of fertilizer on their plants thinking more is best.... THEN ON TOP OF THAT.... yeah list is very long but yet one more is lighting regimes- some people run their lights for 24 hours a day.. but even running at 18 which is the text book norm is more stressful than a natural out door lighting regime in most places of the world.

I've wrote a lot so my point might be lost- 
Herm isn't the end of the world, it's perfectly natural for the plant (in fact the plant would be 'broken' if it didn't have a herm function waiting to be unleashed to help preserve it's species) and it's already a proven point that seed from a herm plant isn't outright rubbish that needs to be treated like bio-waste (with femenized seeds producing perfect females and mother plants)


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## Hick (Apr 9, 2012)

:confused2:....... hermyy  seeds are TRASH.. plain and simple my friend.. 
you'll get nowhere trying to theorise otherwise. hermies are the bain of growers and 'breeders' anywhere. They ruin quality and quantity. the only thing I can agree with, is that it 'is' a dominate trait in cannabis..but not a 'desirable' trait...


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## resin-reaper (Apr 9, 2012)

You don't even know for sure the herm offspring will herm themselves though.
Yes if it does and you just so happen to live next door to a breeder then you *EDIT*his females with lousy pollen... but how many of us are in that position? 

Why would the average grower with no connection to breeding or passing genes into any public gene pool care if a few seeds pop up on their free plant? Here is Australia, when you buy "Bush" (means out door), you EXPECT seeds even though no one likes to accidentally chop one into their bowl or smoke one, the gear still can be a top notch high. The best weed i've ever bought off the streets had a few seeds in it- so why are people so TERRIFIED of a few seeds?

I'm not saying to nuts for bag seed and herm offspring but why the terror? Why treat it like a junkies used needle that needs safe disposal rather than just a low grade FREE seed?


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## Hick (Apr 9, 2012)

FREE  seeds are "just" as easily procured through "legitimate selection" of both male and female plants.. AND you aren't _further_ promoting the UNdesirable hermy characteristic.  
by procreating with hermie seeds you are essentially "selectively" breeding IN FAVOR OF/FOR that trait. It "is" a dominate trait, 'all the more' reason to NOT procreate/promote it in subsequent generations.
It is simple genetics. "Select only the best"... I'm sure there are links in the 'breeding' section here that you'll find interesting  
    If you're raising quarter horses, would you allow your mares to breed with the one-eyed, roman nosed, short backed, no hipped, big eared, fence busting, mustang stud running the range?..(it's FREE)  
    Maybe our standards are simply higher..:confused2:..(no disrespect intended) but "seeded" pot can't hardly be _given away_ in my parts.


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## resin-reaper (Apr 9, 2012)

"If you're raising quarter horses, would you allow your mares to breed with the one-eyed, roman nosed, short backed, no hipped, big eared, fence busting, mustang stud running the range?..(it's FREE) "
*
YES I would keep it* But would it be kept as a breeder or race horse? Of course not. Instead i'll take this FREE horse to the back paddock and donate it to some little orphan girl as petting animal/monster... she'll be cool with it cause have you seen the wierd **** kids watch like Yo Gabba Gabba?.... 

But that's exactly my point. I'm not saying to breed even more generations from it. In fact if you got a second generation herm seed then that's worse then what i'm talking about- i'm talking about a plant with healthy parents spitting out herm seed and growing just that first generation as low grade stock down the back of the yard... In fact i'm doing that right now. The plant i am refering too was sown in autumn so vegged for only 3-4 weeks (about 5 nodes tall i think) and has been flowering now for about 3 weeks I think. I have 3 things to say about it:

1) It's female 
2) I haven't taken it at all seriously and it got nute burnt to **** but 0 male flowers thus far. So even though it's from inferior lineage AND has been very severely stressed it's still producing female nuggets and resin and no sign yet of a next generation.. although still lots of time for that
3) I didn't pay for the seed


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## resin-reaper (Apr 9, 2012)

Oh I got a question for you though since you do seem knowledgeable-

You said that breeders herm one plant and then put that pollen on to a second non-herm female to produce femenized seeds. I was of the understanding that it was self pollination that produced the females. 

In my last run there was a heat wave followed by monsoon rain weather that lasted over a month. Anyhow for what ever reason, possibly the weather combined with fem'd seeds, one or more of the 4 female plants has pollinated all of them to an extent, but one plant far more than the others.
I didn't go looking for male flowers to investigate so i don't know which are self pollinated seeds and which ones are from a herm plant crossing with another... which itself could be herm too i guess, but also maybe not.

My question to you is do you believe that if only one of my plants hermed and pollinated another non-herm that the seed will be 'feminized'? (but of course bio-waste in your eyes  )

I have a few dozen coming up now but i won't have any statistics on male/female untill atleast 3 weeks i imagine (going straight into flowering season outdoor).


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## Hick (Apr 9, 2012)

resin-reaper said:
			
		

> Oh I got a question for you though since you do seem knowledgeable-
> 
> You said that breeders herm one plant and then put that pollen on to a second non-herm female to produce femenized seeds. I was of the understanding that it was self pollination that produced the females.
> 
> ...



    thanks  I'm somewhat 'knowledgable', but can be pretty 'opinionated' as well. 
and I don't have a lot of first hand experience with hermied seeds (bio-waste ) BUT.. I will gladly give you my thoughts.. 
   you might well get 'mostly' females from your seeds "initially".. but I 'believe' that they will also be more prone to go hermie 'somewhere' along the line than "well bred" seeds.
   I 'know' that procreating with hermie parent seeds, increases the probability in future generations. 



> You said that breeders herm one plant and then put that pollen on to a  second non-herm female to produce femenized seeds. I was of the  understanding that it was self pollination that produced the females.


  I am positive that the method that I mentioned is the "correct" method. Though who's to say how anyone is actually doing it from each and every seed run. There are no "standards" or governing body to monitor or require any standards or methods. 
  I've often heard the seed business is pretty......"seedy"... :rofl:



> she'll be cool with it cause have you seen the wierd **** kids watch like Yo Gabba Gabba?.


:confused2:.. they DO have some weird stuff on kid tv these days don't they... :rofl:


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## The Hemp Goddess (Apr 9, 2012)

Self pollination is what happens with hermies.  Experienced breeders search for very stable non-hermie mothers to breed seeds.  And it makes a HUGE amount of difference on the way that "they herm'd".  Years ago we did not see nearly the hermies that we see now.  I can not help but believe that a large amount of this is because of the continued use of hermie seeds and unresponsible "breeding" of hermies.  I don't think you are going to win the hermie argument here.  I think they are a bane also and all not a "gift" at all.  Healthy parents DO NOT spit out herm seeds.  Anything you plant in your yard can spread hermie pollen for miles, thus starting a nasty cycle.  Good genetics created by responsible breeders are inexpensive.  I'm glad I'm not your neighbor....


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## SquidyPacheco (Apr 9, 2012)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Self pollination is what happens with hermies.  Experienced breeders search for very stable non-hermie mothers to breed seeds.  And it makes a HUGE amount of difference on the way that "they herm'd".  Years ago we did not see nearly the hermies that we see now.  I can not help but believe that a large amount of this is because of the continued use of hermie seeds and unresponsible "breeding" of hermies.  I don't think you are going to win the hermie argument here.  I think they are a bane also and all not a "gift" at all.  Healthy parents DO NOT spit out herm seeds.  Anything you plant in your yard can spread hermie pollen for miles, thus starting a nasty cycle.  Good genetics created by responsible breeders are inexpensive.  I'm glad I'm not your neighbor....


 

Amen...... try growing on an island.... lot of Hawaiian Ibls was lost to a bad neighbor growing his herm crap.. thus we are where we are now in the islands.. its almost imposible to do any jungle breeding... Im believer in once a Hermie always a Hermie... Lazy growers keep hermies IMO.. and this whole hyping a strain thing changing the name of cuts selfing in the name of saving a strain kinda has back fired and started a domino efect and really have become a problem .. IMO specially since Overgrow shut down..  buying seeds is a crap shoot now days.. ends rant...



Aloha 
SquidyP


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## resin-reaper (Apr 9, 2012)

lol well all i can say is "don't live next door to me" because i've got a dozen herm seed in the yard coming up 

I think people are still getting me wrong. I'm not saying herm seed is good- just free. If you at all care about the quality of the plant- buy seeds from a respectable breeder. Honestly i wouldn't give a damn if my cat walked up and ate all the herm seed sprouts i got, but of course if it does all finish ok with minimal to no effort or concern then score.

So yeah don't live next to me, but in my selfishness i'll have a bit of extra smoke growing on the side.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Apr 10, 2012)

See that is the problem.  You planting hermy seeds is not only going to affect you, it is going to affect any mj plants within pollination range, which can be miles.  IMO, it is not much different than bringing a noxious weed into an area.  By planting hermy seeds, you are essentially poisoning the gene pool and undoing what responsible breeders work years to fix.


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## OGKushman (Apr 10, 2012)

Resin reaper is screwing up any local harvests and insuring that any and all weed in his area ends up mids and seedy.

The responsible thing to do would be to not grow males and hermies outdoors. Talk about a waste of effort.


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## ishnish (Apr 10, 2012)

Wow, this thread sure did take a turn..  
I appreciate everyone's input and point of view.
I think I'll agree with the school of thought that hermies are bad.
and I'll agree to not live near Resin-reaper. :hubba: 

I have heard that male flowers that appear after 6 weeks of flower have a tendency to be sterile; and I have seen male flowers on a harvest that produced zero seeds, and good yummy stoney smoke.
any thoughts on that?

Happy Growing to All! :icon_smile:


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## Hick (Apr 10, 2012)

'some' late nanners are sterile, but by 'no means' are "all" sterile.
''some' strains will throw late nanners if they are pushed for a late harvest. But.."IMO" 6 weeks is "at least" 2 weeks too early to be called "late male flowers"..


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## SquidyPacheco (Apr 10, 2012)

resin-reaper said:
			
		

> lol well all i can say is "don't live next door to me" because i've got a dozen herm seed in the yard coming up
> 
> I think people are still getting me wrong. I'm not saying herm seed is good- just free. If you at all care about the quality of the plant- buy seeds from a respectable breeder. Honestly i wouldn't give a damn if my cat walked up and ate all the herm seed sprouts i got, but of course if it does all finish ok with minimal to no effort or concern then score.
> 
> So yeah don't live next to me, but in my selfishness i'll have a bit of extra smoke growing on the side.


 
. you know bra if i could reach thru this screen and thunk you on the head with a wooden spoon a few times BAM BAM BAM to help you understand you are like a STD to the MJ world by growing and passing on hermies... I would.. cause im nice like that  and here to help


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## resin-reaper (Apr 10, 2012)

Answer me this:

Would it be ok if i grew male plants? Would it be just as rude to have male plants spreading their pollen?

Sure my herm offspring might pollinate other people's plants (MAYBE if they go herm themselves) but to someone who doesn't want random seeds regardless- what is the difference?

Or are people equally saying that unless i have a male with bomb genetic that i shouldn't own that either?


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## ishnish (Apr 10, 2012)

resin-reaper said:
			
		

> Answer me this:
> 
> Would it be ok if i grew male plants? Would it be just as rude to have male plants spreading their pollen?
> 
> ...



To each their own my friend.  And yes, people would likely be more upset if you grew male plants as they would produce a greater amount of pollen.  But I assume your living on the moon and have no chance of pollinating my lands, so enjoy your smoke and watch out for exploding bowls/joints/blunts.


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## OGKushman (Apr 11, 2012)

I'd rather have a male pollinate and make a CROSS. Not CONTAMINATE my strains.

And responsible people don't grow males outdoors and let them go to full flower pollination. They separate, and harvest pollen, then hand apply it. This is how it's done properly.


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## resin-reaper (Apr 11, 2012)

No i think you missed the point.

If they don't want their plants pollinated it won't matter if it was a rubbish parent genetic or not producing seed in their gear. Think for example someone that only runs from cutting and no time for germinating seeds.

Let's make the scenario even worse. Lets say i got a big yard and don't go down the back often but i put a few dozen bag seed in a garden bed then go away for holiday for a few months only returning a week before harvest time- so lets say half the plants are male spewing their pollen out in to the world and that some of those males are pissy genetic **** ups.

In such circumstances- is the guy with a seed grown from a herm plant still worse than said scenario? (with straight males of dubious origin and random potential)


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## resin-reaper (Apr 11, 2012)

Ok OGkushman you answered my question as i was asking it.

In effect you are against any public pollination so see herm as a crime.

Fair enough.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Apr 11, 2012)

resin-reaper said:
			
		

> In such circumstances- is the guy with a seed grown from a herm plant still worse than said scenario? (with straight males of dubious origin and random potential)



Yes.


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## SquidyPacheco (Apr 11, 2012)

resin-reaper said:
			
		

> No i think you missed the point.
> 
> If they don't want their plants pollinated it won't matter if it was a rubbish parent genetic or not producing seed in their gear. Think for example someone that only runs from cutting and no time for germinating seeds.
> 
> ...


 
@reisin Ok bra its simple like this .. you shouldnt grow... go back to buying hermed bag weed....  why you would want to smoke out seeded weed IDK.. does seeded weed do anything other then give you a headache and make you tired??? wait dont answer that.... Maybe you just dont know what a MJ Cultivar is???  your logic is flawed bud... gets out wooden spoon ...THUNK!!

I wont be back to this thread so dont bother responding resin i have watched people with a lot of knowledge try to help you understand..but your post is kinda saying im just a lazy ******* that shouldnt grow weed and stick to buying it... its cool tho bra in the MJ world with out costumers there would be no dispensaries...  to me you are more of the costumer sort the kinda guy that calls all strains killer dro!!! .. THUNK THUNK THUNK!!!!!!!!! :hitchair:



@Dan you nailed it .. this guy just wants to argue to argue and im glad hes thousands of miles away...

@Hick dam you're Smart!!!!!no pun inteaded... 

@THG omfg..... i think i got a new crush.... 

Aloha
SquidyP


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## OGKushman (Apr 11, 2012)

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SquidyPacheco again.



:48:


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## resin-reaper (Apr 11, 2012)

No you are just being a rude idiot.

You dare tell me i shouldn't grow? Who the hell do you think you are? If you paid attention you would of known that these herm seeds AREN'T MY REAL CROP- so why would you talk rubbish about seeded weed only giving you a head ache. For a start that is utter ****, but on top of that ITS NOT MY REAL CROP YOU STUPID RUDE PRICK!

I grow indoor hydroponic cannabis very well and try to only use the best genetics. When I have mother plants in the near future I won't keep any that produce herm cuttings and won't just keep the first seed i sprout, i'll run as many as i can to find the best genetics available to me and keep that one.

I am not here to just argue- are you? Why would you say that to me when you are just as equally arguing only you haven't actually read what i said so it is you being the **** and "just arguing"- not really knowing fully what you are talking about.

Everyone stop telling me the herm is inferior- i know that and have said that! 

I do have a right to say that i do think they can be used as low grade stock around these ways. I don't live in California and growers are VERY FEW AND FAR BETWEEN.  There are for all practical purposes ZERO breeders around here. In fact no one knows what they are smoking strain wise here because there are no legal grows, no dispensaries and it is illegal to posses a seed let alone import one over the net.

I have listened to people and taken in to consideration the 'public pollination' issue. It does make me think about what a 'responsible grower' is but it's not the same for everywhere. If you live near medical grow ops you have a lot of responsibility. If you live near a population where large number are hostile to cannabis and the users don't know the first thing about it's varieties or cultivation then things are a lot different.

Are people listening to me though? I still have a tortured seed from a herm which is now in the bud and resin generation stage and ZERO male flowers. This plant lost like 4 big shade leaves and singed the ends off nearly all the rest. I havent taken it seriously and sprouted it just because so out of lazyness i used run off water from my real grow. Being a tiny plant in potting mix instead of a mature hydroponic plant it got nailed by the dose.
If someone told me they had a regular plant and done this damage to it and asked me if it could turn herm i would say it was a definite possibility. Just like smoking ciggs and cancer. But still no male flower and time is running out.

If this plant finishes with no male flowers will people peak down from their high horse and consider that i'm not a **** head "trying to argue"?


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## OGKushman (Apr 11, 2012)

resin-reaper said:
			
		

> No you are just being a rude idiot.
> 
> You dare tell me i shouldn't grow? Who the hell do you think you are? If you paid attention you would of known that these herm seeds AREN'T MY REAL CROP- so why would you talk rubbish about seeded weed only giving you a head ache. For a start that is utter ****, but on top of that ITS NOT MY REAL CROP YOU STUPID RUDE PRICK!
> 
> ...




I'm very sorry if I or anyone have angered you, but part of the "passion" we have here is striving for the best. The simple fact that a pheno has herm qualities - makes it trash to us passionate growers. Whether it finishes without flowers or not, it's still got the ability to pass on that geneo. 

Let me put it this way: I paid ~100$ for 6 OG18 seeds, 3 were herms and 1 was male. I threw away the other 2 seeds.


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## resin-reaper (Apr 11, 2012)

And I never once argued with that logic because you are talking about *your real crop. The crop you want to get quality to keep from[/B. 

My point was if its something that doesn't really matter if i gets thrown out half way or a rabbit eats it or what ever then the quality of the genetics is irrelevant- that's all my point was. 
Maybe in Cali where people can fake a medical illness or just have sore feet or something and get a prescription for pot you won't have a use for low grade weed but around here no weed goes astray. We all want to lay our hands on the best (and importing seed to grow yourself is the only way) but some scrag weed will be fine for cooking, making hash or just having cheap low power joints since it doesn't take a whole joint to one person to get high from high-grade. Hell it can even be sold for cash because no one around here IMAGINES that smoking bud from a plant that produced a seed somewhere on it will give you a head ache.*


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## SquidyPacheco (Apr 11, 2012)

resin-reaper said:
			
		

> lol well all i can say is "don't live next door to me" because i've got a dozen herm seed in the yard coming up
> 
> I think people are still getting me wrong. I'm not saying herm seed is good- just free. If you at all care about the quality of the plant- buy seeds from a respectable breeder. Honestly i wouldn't give a damn if my cat walked up and ate all the herm seed sprouts i got, but of course if it does all finish ok with minimal to no effort or concern then score.
> 
> So yeah don't live next to me, but in my selfishness i'll have a bit of extra smoke growing on the side.


 
 shrugs.. least i got your attention sheesh... anyways and now your a major hydro grower of killer what again herm bagseed?? i do seem a bit a lost?? and one way or another could care less if you plant herm or buy seeds from seed banks or even feed your bunny herm seeds.. im 2500 miles away from you easy..  im safe from your STD thank goodness...

Many members told you nicely how they felt about Herms and your pondering .. you didnt seem to hear the ## of post about MP liking to be a Herm free zone.. if you dont like the answer dont ask the question..

 now my POINT if you ever created your own cross youd know how much work it is and how much time and space and personal sacrifice it takes..try making your own strain and then stablize them  bx6 times to have them pollenated from some wild herm a bunny **** out from eating a herm seed.. hahah im being so dramamtic i swear..anyways then maybe youd see how you sound is blasaphamy

.i see its pointless to tell you ALL HERMS SHOULD DIE  and yeah disposed of in the proper manner  so yeah bra  :hitchair: THUNK THUNK THUNK.... ALL HERMS DIE!!!! even the ones you want to smoke when your bigtime dro aint ready...  or feed your livestock..

Aloha fo reals dis time

IgnorantPrick


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## resin-reaper (Apr 11, 2012)

YOU STILL AREN'T PAYING ATTENTION
*EDITED*



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> 
> Simply put, cussing is not necessary and should not be used. If you feel like cussing in a private message to another member who is tolerant of it, then that's fine. The use of cussing in the open forums is not acceptable as polite conversation. Please just talk without using profanity.
> 2. Flaming, or open argument including, but not limited to using derogatory names toward another member, degrading comments, racial insults and sexist comments are not acceptable for use anywhere in the open forums.*


http://www.marijuanapassion.com/Site_Rules.html <-----


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## OGKushman (Apr 11, 2012)

Not a "real crop" :giggle: we get it. It's all an illusion. These are not the droids You are looking for.



_*waves hands*_


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## resin-reaper (Apr 11, 2012)

How do you not understand the concept? I use proper genetics and effort on an inside grow- then I have a few seeds in the yard practically growing themselves. If it's inferior who cares? Can still be sold on or etc


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## ishnish (Apr 12, 2012)

I'd say it's time for people to glance at the first post of this thread and say...
The original question(s) have been answered and the discussion has now taken a new course... 
Again, I appreciate everyone's two to fifty cents and now I bow and continue on to new threads of enlightenment. :watchplant:


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