# A Grower's Best Friend



## GanjaGuru (Apr 8, 2006)

Undoubtably a dog.
Besides just being a companion on those long lonely hikes, a dog:
-Acts as an early warning system against rattlesnakes.  Dog have an instinctive fear and hatred of snakes,
-Scares away bears, lions and coyote's (although these won't hurt you really).
-When approaching your garden, a dog can smell anyone lurking about and warn you,
-At the site, the dog can warn you of anyone approaching.
-Dog shit is an EXCELLENT way of keeping deer away (see my thread on Deer Deturrents).
-And, what more innocent cover--just a guy (or girl) out on a hike with their dog.


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## Hick (Apr 9, 2006)

23 April.1994 (Attack #8, death #4) Barbara Schoener, 40, a friend of my sister and a long-distance runner in excellent physical shape, was killed by an 80-pound female mountain lion in Northern California on the American River Canyon trail in the Auburn State Recreation Area.

10 December.1994 (Attack #10, death #5) Iris M. Kenna, a 5-foot-4 and no more than 115 pounds, 56-year-old woman in excellent physical condition, was killed near Cuyamaca Peak at Cuyamaca Rancho State Park

20 March. (Attack #11) Scott Fike, a 27-year-old cyclist, was bitten and cut by a cougar near Mount Lowe in the Angeles National Forest, on 20 March 1995,

8 January.2004 (Attacks #12 and 13; death #6) 35-year-old Mark Jeffrey Reynolds, an amateur mountain bike racer, was killed by a mountain lion sometime after 1:25 p.m. at Whiting Ranch Wilderness Park in southern Orange County. His bicycle was later found with the chain unbroken, but off the sprockets. 

Later the same day, Anne Hjelle, 30, of Santa Ana, a former Marine who works as a fitness instructor, was jumped by the same mountain lion. Anne was attacked a short distance down the trail from Mark's body, which was not visible to her, while she was riding her mountain bicycle. The lion jumped her from a slight rise (~4 feet) on the right hand side of the trail, from under some high brush. The lion quickly had Anne's face in its mouth, despite the presence of Anne's helmet. Her riding companion, Debi Nicholls, was about 30 feet behind Anne and witnessed the attack. Debi threw her bike at the mountain lion, to no avail, then grabbed Anne's legs and screamed as the lion dragged both of them 30 feet down the slope into the brush. The lion kept attacking Anne, alternating between her helmet, face and neck.


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## THE BROTHER'S GRUNT (Apr 9, 2006)

*Damn now thats what i call a haircut. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



*


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## Mutt (Apr 9, 2006)

Ouch!!!!!!


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## GanjaGuru (Apr 9, 2006)

Hick said:
			
		

> 23 April.1994 (Attack #8, death #4) Barbara Schoener, 40, a friend of my sister and a long-distance runner in excellent physical shape, was killed by an 80-pound female mountain lion in Northern California on the American River Canyon trail in the Auburn State Recreation Area.
> 
> 10 December.1994 (Attack #10, death #5) Iris M. Kenna, a 5-foot-4 and no more than 115 pounds, 56-year-old woman in excellent physical condition, was killed near Cuyamaca Peak at Cuyamaca Rancho State Park
> 
> ...


 
Some of those attacks were the result of people getting too close to a mother lion with kits.  They were unfortunate cases of a mother protecting her young.

Pet dogs kill and main 1,000 x more people per year than ALL the wild animals combined.

By the way, I was involved in getting help for cyclist Scott--at the time I was a docent at Henninger Flats Nature Center, right next-door to Mt Lowe.

Lightning kills more hikers/bikers than wild animals.
When I was a Ranger, we responded to more calls concerning allergic reactions to insect bites than attacks by animals.  More people were injured from fights among each other than from native fauna.

I feel 1000x safer in the woods than I do walking down the street in a big city.

P.S. the reason there are more attacks against hikers and bikers (as opposed to hikers) is their speed.  A runner or biker approaches a lion so fast it doesn't have time to flee, it's preferred method of defense.

P.P.S. Humans are NOT on the menu of wild animals.  Lions and bears for instance do NOT recognize people as a food source.


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## Kindbud (Apr 9, 2006)

Yeah thats true but when im hunting or just walking thought the woods 
i have my Ruger 270 win mag or a 44 revoler bring it bear or mountain loin 
its not touchin me!!! it going to get my six 44 rounds in its head or a 270 
bullet in its head!!or a 12 gauge # 2 buck shot in it face! so im not worryed 
i have all ready killed over 8 coyotes at my hunting club and shot at a panther 
trust me no animal is eating me!!!!!


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## Mutt (Apr 9, 2006)

Kindbud said:
			
		

> i have all ready killed over 8 coyotes at my hunting club


 
When I lived in Pa. those freakin things would attack kids, deer, you name it and kill just to kill and leave the carcas. I have seen em do it. shoot the mangy animals.


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## Hick (Apr 9, 2006)

> I feel 1000x safer in the woods than I do walking down the street in a big city.


..*"AMEN"*  brudah'.!!!.. 

and for the record, I agree with you on about everything in that post. Pets, lightening, ect...without exception. The only additional comment. The cyclists joggers, runners, also tend to provoke the "natural" sense of chase/pursuit.


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## GanjaGuru (Apr 9, 2006)

Kindbud said:
			
		

> Yeah thats true but when im hunting or just walking thought the woods
> i have my Ruger 270 win mag or a 44 revoler bring it bear or mountain loin
> its not touchin me!!! it going to get my six 44 rounds in its head or a 270
> bullet in its head!!or a 12 gauge # 2 buck shot in it face! so im not worryed
> ...


 
I have hiked well over a thousand miles, some of it in the roughest terrain, most of it in area's full of lions & bears & coyotes, sometimes alone, and I've NEVER needed a gun.
I think killing an animal just because you can is pretty cowardly.
Hunger is, imo, the only justification to kill.  And self defense in rare cases.  I accept the fact that in many area's of the U.S., killing of deer is necassary because there are too many but this is because of mismanagement of our natural resources.  Deer lived in the U.S. for many thousands of years in perfect harmony with the environment without their being too many.

Proud that you killed coyote's?  Might as well take pride in catching fish in a barrell, or cow tipping.

Anyone who refers to a magnificent creature like a mountain lion as a "mangy animal" doesn't know about them as well as I do.

And I take issue with the statement that mountain lions indiscriminately kill kids and just "leave their carcasses".  Why has there been a news blackout on these killings?  Hick mentioned "natural instincts".
And I recognize that we humans have a natural instinct to kill animals.  And I accept it (but please don't call it a sport.  It's not a sport unless the animals have guns too.  Not much sport in killing a deer with a high-powered semi-auto or a hamster with a hand grenade).

Far too many people kill just "cause".


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## Kindbud (Apr 9, 2006)

Think of it this way you hunt as a sport and it is a sport and stupid ass 
coyotes eatin the deer that I spened hours of days hunting to try to get 
you some go meat and you see a coyote chasing the your trying to hunt 
IM SHOTING IT and i dont want to be walking through the woods and get 
attacked by a bear, coyote, panther, etc I want to leave!! Its survival of 
the fitest!!! and if you a tree hugger **** you! when you get ate its your
fought!And its not cowardly we annualy hunt coyotes cuz they kill the hell 
out of the deer that I hunt and if i feel that an animal is going to **** with 
me its getting shot I am not gettin attack by no retarted animal thats why 
we invented guns!!!!! And mountain lion's may be magnificent creature but
if you had a gun and it tryed to atack you would you not shot it???? And I 
never said it was a mangy animal....And Deer hunting is a sport I just dont
go around killing every on I see and have you ever hunted deer it is very!!! 
hard you have to be vary skilled you cant just go out their and walk around 
and shot them its harder then you think!!!! So think about it in my point of view!!


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## GanjaGuru (Apr 10, 2006)

You stand a better chance of being bitten by your own dog that by a wild animal so you better gun 'em down toot sweet. Better use an assault rifle, ya know just to make sure.

Coyote's only take down mainly old & sick deer, thus making the herd stronger. A herd of healthy deer have nothing to fear from a pack of coyote's. For one thing, they can outrun them.

It's a fairy tale to think a gun will protect you from a mountain lion. Do you think a lions gunna run across a gravel field allowing you enough time to raise your gun, draw a bead and fire?  A mountain lion attacks by stealth. You won't know you've been attacked until it's happening. A mountain lion won't attack unless it has the element of surprize.
I've been lucky enough to see a mountain lion twice (I've seen it's spoor & scat MANY times). Once was dusk on a foggy mountain trail.  I was headed east, he was headed west.  I guess the heavy fog dampened my sound and scent.
Anyway we came face to face on the trail. We both stopped and stared at each other in surprize, about 8 feet apart.

Then it turned tail and whoosh it was gone.
I yelled at it as I backed up to make sure it would stay gone.

The other time it there was a mother and her 2 juveniles sunning themselves on the side of a road near my house. I made a few calls to neighbors. Not to harm the lions, but a warning to keep a eye on their pets (bring in the cats and little dogs, let out the big dogs). Mountain lions have a huge range (area they hunt in) and we knew that within a day they'd move on, no biggie.

Yes I am a proud card-carrying tree hugger.
You should try it.
I mean it, _you really should try it. _
C'mon what are you afraid of. It won't hurt you I promise. It's an experience you won't forget and you will be glad you did, honest.


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## Kindbud (Apr 10, 2006)

Yes true coyotes bring down the old and sick deers and make the herd stronger 
but they also kill the fawns just because they are easyer to take down then a full grown Buck or Doe. Yes true a deer can out run a coyote but not a pack of coyotes 
I have saw number of times when coyotes chase a full grown doe and bring it to the ground but it dose not get to eat its pray cuz its usally dead by then i mean i have shot it and you can be a tree hugger all you want im good and trust me if I see a mountain loin walkin on the same trail as me I will not shot right away cuz if it just 
walks on thats cool with me but if it starts running at me or growlin its dead trust me 
And Im not going around shoting every coyote i see some times im in the car and can shot at them lol GO HUG ON YOUR TREE!!!! IM GOING TO LIVE


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## Mutt (Apr 10, 2006)

Wow, heated debate. lets keep it civil though. . No name callin. Everyone has a different point of view. but this is a good debate.

Little tidbit though. The coyotes in Pa. were not native to that area. They immerged beggining of last century. Some say they were stocked by the paper factories to thin the deer population to avoid damage to good veneer grade trees and such. but it is rebbutted by the game commision and paper companies. The coyote population has outweighed the deer population. This is causing a major problem. So there is an open season on coyote. Well, with the massive decrease in the deer populetion this forces the coyote to seek out other food. and children have been a good source of easy prey. and if you ever seen a pack of coyotes and what they can do...not a quick death. To further add. because the Mt. Lion and other predator animals have been hunted out. The natural selection process has been disrupted. Thus the coyote numbers are to heavy and killing O'wise healthy deer and other animals. They do however eat a very large range of animals. but game commision does not think that it will hurt the animal population. Which I think is horse crap. What I seen in the wild and I what I have read are two different things in its entirety.

here is some good reading material that rebutts everything I said above.:
Status of coyotes and coyote depredation in Pennsylvania.pdf
and...
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=458&Q=163663&tx=1

want tons of it google: coyote+Pennsylvania or just put your northeastern state in.


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## Kindbud (Apr 10, 2006)

Right on Mutt!!!! Are you on
my side ??? Im on your side i used
to hunt in Pa.!!! TOO MANY OF THE 
DAM THINGS


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## Mutt (Apr 10, 2006)

Haha, I respect both sides. I regard Ganja as a valuable source of great information on wildlife and guerrilla growing. but I disagree with him on the East Coast regarding Coyotes. I have read a lot on them. The Game commission sends reports and all sorts of stuff on them. but one simple truth not much is known about the north eastern grey coyote. They are not sure how they came to populate the area. They don't know what it cross bred with. Its a Mutt. (hehehe). but what I have seen coyotes do and the differences between a true Grey Coyote that does run alone. and the Packs of Coyotes that didn't look like a pure bred acted two totally different ways. the Packs were viscous. The lone coyote was more passive and inquisitive, but none the less a predator. but the Packs would run anything down just to kill. So I always left the lone coyote alone, but the packs at a full run. Target Practice.

One major difference I noticed in the (I call em a grey coyote is) lone grey coyote they had long legs almost like a timber wolf. Grey fur. and relatively tall. but was not a wolf. I seen them in the wild too. simlilar but not a wolf. Beautiful. but those run alone. Mainly Rabbits a small doe or something.

The packs of coyotes were grey but shorter with some brown fur. I seen them run in packs of 8 or more. Chasing a Healthy Buck down. back in the early 90's near my area a pack of 6 grabbed a 5 yr. old kid. broad daylight and drag the kids into the woods a mauled the kid. Kid made it but with multiple scars on the legs, arm, face, and neck. This was after a hard winter. Paper said the mother was right there and couldn't get to her kid in time. No fear with them in a pack.

So as far as the East Coast coyote in a pck. Target Practice.

Now thats enough on coyotes. I beleive that with the human population ever increasing and urban sprawling we are "invading" the wildlifes habitat. making these Mt. Lion and Panthers hunting grounds smaller and smaller. I feel that once a predator gets accustomed to human presence. It will become bolder on its contact until we are incoorperated into there diet as prey. Nature at its finest. but I do beleive in survival and will blast anything that is threatening my life or my families life. Without hesitation whether human or animal.


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## Hick (Apr 10, 2006)

[font=tahoma,sans-serif] * 10 Peeves dogs have with people  
* 
*    1. Blaming your farts on me... not funny... not funny at all !!! 

    2. Yelling at me for barking.. I'M A FRIGGIN' DOG, YOU IDIOT! 

    3. Taking me for a walk, then not letting me check stuff out. *[/font]
  [font=tahoma,sans-serif]*         Exactly whose walk is this anyway? 

    4. Any trick that involves balancing food on my nose... stop it! 

    5. Any haircut that involves bows or ribbons. Now you know why we chew *[/font]
  [font=tahoma,sans-serif]*        your stuff up when you're not home. 

    6. The sleight of hand, fake fetch throw. You fooled a dog! *[/font]
  [font=tahoma,sans-serif]*         Whoooo Hoooooooo what a proud moment for the top of the food chain. 

    7. Taking me to the vet for "the big snip", then acting surprised when I freak *[/font]
  [font=tahoma,sans-serif]*         out every time we go back! 

    8. Getting upset when I sniff the crotches of your guests. Sorry, but I haven't *[/font]
  [font=tahoma,sans-serif]*        quite mastered that handshake thing yet. 

    9. Dog sweaters. Hello ???, Haven't you noticed the fur? 

    10. How you act disgusted when I lick myself. Look, we both know the truth, *[/font]
  [font=tahoma,sans-serif]*           you're just jealous. 

    Now lay off me on some of these things, We both know who's boss here!!!  *[/font]
  [font=tahoma,sans-serif]*     You don't see me picking up your **** do you ???   
*[/font]


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## Mutt (Apr 10, 2006)

The one peeve I got with my dog. 

Stop doin the hit and run. God he comes and lays a rank one looks at me with that huge grin in his eyes and leaves. the nasty thing.


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## GanjaGuru (Apr 10, 2006)

"I feel that once a predator gets accustomed to human presence. It will become bolder on its contact until we are incoorperated into there diet as prey. Nature at its finest."

- I doubt a few centuries of human enroachment of their habitat is going to undo millions of years of evolution.

I notice how on one hand you claim that coyote's kill lots of children yet you had to back back into the 90's to find an instance.

The only instance I can recall reading about a coyote killing a child was about 20 or so years ago in the foothills ooutside L.A.
A woman put her infant in a kids car seat (unbelted) and put the child outside the back door _where the trash cans were kept _while she went back inside to get something and the phone rang.._._
A coyote, used to the woman leaving food right there for it many times before wandered by and figured the infant was also foodeft for it.  It carted the baby off and after taking a bite or two figured that wasn't food and left it, but the baby died from being dragged/bitten.
The culprit in the above instance is the mother.

Coyote's pose no danger to humans.  Indeed, many people think coyote's are a lot bigger than they are--smaller than a medium-size dog, and skinny.
I've seen them occasionally out while hiking, usually around campgrounds (easy pickin's).  If I take a step towards them, they run away.


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## Mutt (Apr 10, 2006)

Editted everything as it turned into an apple and oranges comparison. I agree with you Ganja that the Mid-west and western coyote may not have attacks. but the coyote here are not small and def. not passive. ours are bigger more hybridized and cross bred with other species. I will not continue the debate. I respect your opinion completely. but disagree with some of your views as you do mine. but thats what makes me repsect ya. your views are not off the cuff they are well thought out. So I agree to disagree. but see your point of view Ganja. Peace dude.

One last note on the Eastern Coyote:
The eastern coyote -- the adult males average 40 pounds, almost twice the size of their prairie home cousins -- has spread throughout the eastern United States, including areas of the southern Appalachians where it has never lived before. They started showing up in small numbers in Pennsylvania again from the 1930s through the 1950s, with the population rising steadily from the 1960s.


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## GanjaGuru (Apr 10, 2006)

This debate ranged far afield from my original intent.
Which is: a dog is a grower's best friend.  If you hike with a dog (always check first, they're not allowed in many area's) you won't even see any wild animals.
Which is kinda sad really.


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