# What am i doing wrong (im at my wits end)



## pontiff (Sep 5, 2008)

*
*Hi there,
Im at my wits end... I have tried to grow hydro for 12 months on and off now and i always seem to roughly get the same result (i.e: nothing) no matter what I change and im running out of ideas.... 

So far I have tried 


different clones
Tank water, Mains Water and Dam water
Different ballasts and globes (both HPS600w)
Different watering systems:  Recirculation, runoff and by hand at the moment
Different heights of hte light
Different reflector
full strengh Nutrients, 1/2 strength, and not at all.
Basically what happens is they dont grow all that much and start to die off at the edges.  I know that at the moment they are hungry but i was trying to not feed them to start with to see if that was what was hurting them.

A friend of mine uses the same lights and same medium and grows really well, but here I cant seem to do it.  I thought that it might be the quality of the power running in, so I have the lights running off a UPS, but that has not helped.


I have attached photos of my clone box so you can see that the clones were / are nice and healthy to start with, but get them into my tent and they fall over (so to speak).

They get 18 hours a day and the fan runs 24x7.


The first 2 pics are from my clone box.

Im at a complete loss to explain it, I have tried just about everything I can think of and I get the same result.  Please someone help!!!! 


 1. How tall are your plants now? 
About 20 centimetres or so?

  2. How far from the lights are the tops of your plants? Is this a constant distance or have you changed it recently? 
It does not seem to make a difference.. I've tried close and tried 30-40cms and the result seems the same.

  3. How old are they? 
Technically they are about 10-11 months old, but they have been in the tent for about 3 weeks.
 4. What strain are they? 
Umm not sure
 5. Did you start them from seed or clone? 
Cloned from some that i used for outdoor last season which went great guns and produced nicely.
 6. What type of containers are you using and what size are they in gallons?
Ummmm im not sure but the pictures show them

*WHAT TYPE OF GROW DO YOU HAVE?*


 7. Dirt? 
In a soilless medium.  Same that I used for outdoor which worked fine.  coconut husk stuff I think it is
 8. What mixture of dirt or type of dirt did you use? 

 9. Is it a type that has added nutrients like "Miracle Grow"? 
Not that I am aware of.  It has fertiliser in it, but its the slow release kind.
 10. What mixture of perlite, vermiculite and other additives have you used if any? 
Nothing as yet
 11. Hydroponic? 
Yes

*WHAT TYPE OF HYDROPONIC SYSTEM DO YOU USE?*


 12. Ebb and Flow 

 13. NFT 

 14. Bubbler/Deep Water 
At the moment its just me hand watering it to try and 'tick off' any of the factors that could be causing it

*WHAT TYPE OF MEDIA DO YOU USE?* 


 15. Gravel 

 16. Hydroton 

 17. Rockwool slab 
Ummmmmm

*WHAT TYPE OF LIGHTS DO YOU USE?* 


 18. Fluorescent 

 19. Halide

 20. HPS 
YES.. HPS
 21. Wattage? 
600
 22. Ballast, is it digital or analog? 
Im not sure the difference but I would assume analog?
 23. Is it remote or in your grow area? 
Its outside the tent with a 2-3metre power lead
 24. What nutrients are you feeding your plants? 
At the moment... nothing... just water to try and ascertain the root of the problem

*HYDROPONIC FERTS?*


 25. What brand? What mix? What strength? 

 26. How often, and when was the last time?
At this stage... nothing.

*SOIL FERTS?* 


 27. What brand? What strength? What mix? 

 28. How often, and when was the last time?


*ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS OF THE GROW AREA*


 29. Do you use ventilation for your indoor grow? 
Yes.. I have an exhaust fan that sucks out the old air
 30. If so, what do you use? 

 31. Do you use a fan?
Tried a fan yes, no difference.
 32. What type of fan and where is it pointed? What speed? 
Just the standard pedastal fan that you would buy from the local hardware store.  Tried facing it in all different directions.
 33. Temperature of the grow area?
20's I would think.  much the same as the clone box which clones great.
 34. Humidity of the grow area? 
Not sure, I can find out if need be?
 35. Is CO2 being introduced? What method? 
No
 36. Do you use Odor Control, (carbon, ionizer, ozone gen)? 
No... not needed where it is.
 37. Do you use LST? HST?
No


----------



## pontiff (Sep 5, 2008)

... and here is the problem plant pics


----------



## pontiff (Sep 5, 2008)

Sorry for the yellow pics, but its because the light is on.  If you think that it would help I can take hte plant out of the tent and into the daylight and take them again?


----------



## Hick (Sep 5, 2008)

pontiff.. you say a "tent"?
...I 'believe' that there is a problem with one specific 'brand' of tent. Something was toxic to plants. theres a thread here.. 'somewhere'..


----------



## Hick (Sep 5, 2008)

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25462&highlight=toxic+tent



> After several months of extensive testing, false positives and much interaction with the public regarding this matter, we have found an EPA approved compound that isn't stable in our plastic and that causes extreme stress to certain sensitive plants. In the future, this compound will be removed during manufacture.
> http://www.reefermanseeds.com/forums...ead.php?t=9785


----------



## Growdude (Sep 5, 2008)

You dont mention your PH do you know the PH?

The fist pic looks like nute burn,the leaf tip is brown, also the leaf edges have brown spots along the edge. could be from the pre nuted soiless mix.

Pic 2 looks like heat stress, the leaf edges are curling up along the edge of the leaf.
You say the temps are "20's I would think" Check the temps at the top of the canopy.

You say you have had the bulb close and at 30 and 40 cm
30-40 is pretty close if you dont have the proper exhaust.


----------



## andy52 (Sep 5, 2008)

i agree with hick.if this has been going on for a yr.,i would toss the tent.probably the kind with the pvc issues.killing your plants.check it out.homebox is the good tent.


----------



## pontiff (Sep 5, 2008)

andy52 said:
			
		

> i agree with hick.if this has been going on for a yr.,i would toss the tent.probably the kind with the pvc issues.killing your plants.check it out.homebox is the good tent.



Thanks for the tips, I will get a temp gauge and such today and measure

I forgot to say, also of I take the plant out and just let it grow outside it does great, they take off, same pot, same food etc, just in the tent they flounder,

Outdoor I use same pre-nuted mix without issue, could the mix be ok outdoor and overloaded for hydro?

Thanks for tent reference, I hope u can get them in oz


----------



## pontiff (Sep 5, 2008)

tent is just some Chinese manufactured crap, was about usd150 or so


----------



## andy52 (Sep 5, 2008)

theres your problem.the tent is most likely emitting something that is screwing your crop.jmo


----------



## BuddyLuv (Sep 5, 2008)

Yeah I say pitch the tent (no pun intended lol).


----------



## HMAN (Sep 5, 2008)

Just an untrained observation........ you're running an HPS on an 18/6 cycle? I would think if your trying to veg, you might try a M/H? or even floros? Isn't an HPS used primarily for flowering? And if so, wouldn't you want to be on a 12/12 cycle..........??


----------



## New_2_Chronic (Sep 5, 2008)

HMAN,

you can use a HPS full cycle veg and flower... I do....Check my sig journal. MH is better for VEG because of the blue spectrum that promotes bushy plants with little stretch. HPS to some induces stretching in VEG but my plants havent stretched to much at all///


----------



## HMAN (Sep 5, 2008)

I stand corrected.


----------



## pontiff (Sep 5, 2008)

andy52 said:
			
		

> theres your problem.the tent is most likely emitting something that is screwing your crop.jmo


 
Thanks for the tip.  Im trying to get a mate over to try and errect something with his proper plastic that he builds rooms with and see if that helps.  I'll look around for another tent as well.  Not quite sure where to find one as the local hydro shops dont really deal with/in them


----------



## pontiff (Sep 5, 2008)

Here are some pictures of the offending plant in the day light.

There is a place in Sydney that sells the proper homeboxes it would seem

www . hydromasta dot com dot au /view_product.php?p=10251&id=11

they look like the right thing?

Until I get the tent situation sorted out I am going to leave it outside.  Its about 3 weeks too early here for an outdoor grow, but it will suffice for a few days until I get my tent / replacement sorted.


----------



## POTUS (Sep 5, 2008)

Hello Pontiff,

Sorry I missed your thread until now. I can tell you exactly what the problems are with your setup but first I need to know a couple more things so that I can give you a complete resolution to your problems.

1. Please describe your ebb and flow system to me. What have you filled the grow chambers with? I notice that you didn't answer that in a previous post. Is it rocks, hydroton, rockwool, or what?

2. When using the ebb and flow system, how often did you run the pump to flood the system?

3. While the pump was on, how long did you leave it on before the pump shut off and the system drained?

4. What brand of nutrients are you using at half strength? I need to look at the spec sheet on their web page. If you have the web address, it would help.

5. Have you ever checked the pH of your water? Is your water chlorinated?

The first thing you absolutely need to do is raise the height of your lights to about 60, yes I said 60 cm. 40 cm is WAY too close and closer than that is just killing them faster. I have no doubt that *someone* will tell you that they use theirs at 40 cm or closer and do fine, but if you do as I say, your plants will start growing fine again. I have hundreds of successful grows to back up what I'm telling you.

When the plants are too close to the lights, several factors come into play. First, the transpiration rate is thrown into it's highest gear. That transpiration rate has to be balanced with additional nutrients of a ratio that the plant needs at that rate of growth and a very close watering frequency to both hydrate the plant and roots as well as keeping the root zone at acceptable levels of temperature.

As close as you had those lights, Infrared light also comes into the equation. IR kills plants. It's that simple. When your 600 watt bulbs are 40 cm or even closer to the plants, the level of IR causes stress to the leaves. That stress affects how the plant takes up nutrients and water.

In my ebb and flow systems, I use a one hour on, two hours off, 24/7 for my pumps. It works great. As long as your reservoir water is between 70 to no more than 80F, (21-26C), and the temp at the canopy is between 75 and 85, your lights are at 60 cm and you have a fan oscillating over your plants strong enough to move them SLIGHTLY, you should notice an improvement to your plants within a week to 10 days. As they heal and start growing normally, they'll grow faster and faster.

I don't care how you cool your grow room or lights, closer than 60 cm with a 600 watt HPS is too close. IR and direct heat are frying your ladies.

Let me know the answers to the other questions and I'll get you on track with a proper grow. I would suggest that you use your current nutes at 1/8th of the suggested container plant strength of the manufacturer. That will be safe until we can figure out your entire system.

Stoney.


----------



## pontiff (Sep 6, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> Hello Pontiff,
> 
> Sorry I missed your thread until now. I can tell you exactly what the problems are with your setup but first I need to know a couple more things so that I can give you a complete resolution to your problems.
> 
> ...



Stoney,

Right..  New pics... I have raised the light (I need to create a light 'stand' because the ceiling of the house is ...well... designed by a blind man, cant stand much weight at all.

From the tip of the plant to that metal reflector thing is 60cms exactly.  I run a 18x6 rotation (they were cloned using the same time cycle)

I have an occilating fan in there now running 24x7 on low as well as my standard small exhaust fan.  Its been suggested running another exhaust fan to remove any harmful vapors etc that are perhaps building up?

The medium is attached also.. its a canna type product, coarse coconut husk.  Incidentally... I have tried the canna brand medium also with the same effect.  This is the same medium I use for outdoor.  I had some pics somewhere of the results with it... but they've gone walkabout.  suffice to say, in an outdoor system, watering for 2 mins, 3 times a day, it was magnificent.

Potus.. (love the name btw... being an Aussie its not my place, but I have huge respect for the 'office' not necessarily the person who resides in it) I am interested in your thoughts on the grow tent issues raised above.  Am I shooting myself in the foot to start with due to the 'suspect' nature of the grow tents manufacture?   Would I be better off getting a 1.2x1.2x2 (metres) growtent from homebox (found 1 place in Oz that has them) and starting again?  The tent does smell of 'plastic' and ive had it for about 12 months now.  *cue gags about 'of course it smells like plastic... it is plastic'*

As for the nutes.  I have not started feeding them yet due to the fact that I wanted to try and rule out as many things as I could before I started feeding them again.  If the leaved did not brown off and they continued to be healthy I would have started feeding them, but since they are floundering again, I thought it best to work that out first?  When feeding the grow rate did not change nor did the effects on the leaves.  When I start feeding I will post a pic of the bottle, but its a 2 part solution.

At the moment I am hand watering it once a day to keep track of its progress.  The other watering systems I have tried is a recirc running 15 mins every hour 18 hours a day, 15 mins every 3 hours 24 hours a day, and variations on that.
Any direction you would be able to provide would be greatly appreciated.  I hope that I have provided you with enough information


----------



## Growdude (Sep 6, 2008)

Maybe its just the picture but it sure looks like you moved the light alot more than 20 -30 cm.

Still have not mentioned PH do you check that?


----------



## pontiff (Sep 6, 2008)

Growdude said:
			
		

> Maybe its just the picture but it sure looks like you moved the light alot more than 20 -30 cm.
> 
> Still have not mentioned PH do you check that?



Probably just the pic I think, cause its definatly at 60 exactly now 

I used to check the pH but I'm so disenchanted and I never checked it with outdoor , once I get this problem sorted and do recirc, I will certainly check it

Tap water which i use here is not bad


----------



## POTUS (Sep 6, 2008)

Right.. New pics... I have raised the light...From the tip of the plant to that metal reflector thing is 60cms exactly. I run a 18x6 rotation (they were cloned using the same time cycle)

*That should be fine then. Later, if conditions warrant it, you can move it downward a few cm at a time to see the results. When negative results start, just move it back up to the last "good" point.*

I have an oscillating fan in there now running 24x7 on low as well as my standard small exhaust fan. Its been suggested running another exhaust fan to remove any harmful vapors etc that are perhaps building up?

*If the problem is the tent material giving off fumes that are plant killers, I would just get rid of it and buy another made from a different material. I think the light/heat/IR may have been your entire problem. You should notice lots of new growth within 10 days if that's the case. If the new growth is showing the same negative effects then it may be the tent. The other factors are negated with your outside experiment.*

The medium is attached also.. its a canna type product, coarse coconut husk. Incidentally... I have tried the canna brand medium also with the same effect. This is the same medium I use for outdoor. I had some pics somewhere of the results with it... but they've gone walkabout. suffice to say, in an outdoor system, watering for 2 mins, 3 times a day, it was magnificent.

*pH is an important factor if it's getting outside the permissible limitations. I don't think this is your problem or the plants wouldn't have responded positively when moved outside.*

Potus.. (love the name btw... being an Aussie its not my place, but I have huge respect for the 'office' not necessarily the person who resides in it) 

*hehe, I got a wild hair and changed my screen ID from StoneyBud to POTUS during a particularly paranoid spell. I thought for some time about what to call myself. The dual meaning of the title and the phrase "Pot Us" struck me funny and I couldn't resist.*

I am interested in your thoughts on the grow tent issues raised above.

*Statistically, I think it's more likely that the IR/heat/light distance was the culprit. If you get new growth in the next ten days that is normal and doesn't follow the previous stages of degradation, then we've discovered the true cause of your worries. If the new growth still deteriorates as it was, then the tent may be the cause. Time will tell.*

As for the nutes. I have not started feeding them yet due to the fact that I wanted to try and rule out as many things as I could before I started feeding them again.

*Since you already moved the plants outside and used the same nutrients with positive results, I would think that proves your nutrients to be excluded from the possible causes of your problems.*

At the moment I am hand watering it once a day to keep track of its progress. The other watering systems I have tried is a recirc running 15 mins every hour 18 hours a day, 15 mins every 3 hours 24 hours a day, and variations on that.

*As I said, I've used a one hour on, two off cycle for the last ten years or so and had great results with it. The roots are immersed in a nutrient rich solution for 8 hours each day with evenly spaced oxygen saturation for 16 hours a day. That pretty much maxes out the water/nutrients/oxygen requirements of the plant.*

Any direction you would be able to provide would be greatly appreciated. I hope that I have provided you with enough information.

*You sure have provided good information. You've followed a logical path to resolving your problems and have gathered "outside" information to allow for the "can't see the forest for the trees" syndrome to be dislodged if truly a factor. I think you've done well and you've followed an intelligent method of discovery.*

*Lets wait a few days and see what effect the light distance adjustment has made.*

*Good luck to you man!*


----------



## DomsChron (Sep 6, 2008)

You NEED a ppm meter AND a pH meter when ever doing hydro.


----------



## pontiff (Sep 6, 2008)

that fact is not lost on me don't worry, when I first started I was using a mates gear and doing it all properly but since nothing was working I pared back to the basics . Plant plus light plus water, just to
Get some positive results then I am all prepared to provide the plant everything that it wants and needs to grow 

The bugger of a thing just never shows those signs


----------



## Tater (Sep 6, 2008)

Hey just reading the thread (never knew that about IR and have my doubts but still quality info as usual Potus) but I never noticed you say anything about your intake fan.  Do you have an intake fan bringing in fresh air or are you using a passive vent or no vent?  If no vent then your fan can work as hard as it wants but it won't accomplish much because of the vacuum that will be created in the room.  You may want to look into an aircooled hood as well which would really help you with temps especially in a small grow area.  Let us know about the intake situation and listen to Potus I to think he is pointing you down the right path.


----------



## pontiff (Sep 6, 2008)

it's a passive intake system as in the exhaust draws in more air from the vents lower in the tent. I can install an intake fan if you think it is needed. I've taken some photos today and will take the same pics for the next 7-1 days to show the change (hopefully for the positive)


----------



## POTUS (Sep 7, 2008)

Tater said:
			
		

> Hey just reading the thread (never knew that about IR and have my doubts but still quality info as usual Potus)...


Thanks man. IR is mostly heat. It depends on now close the source of IR is to the plant. Fans don't move IR. If IR is present and in too strong of an amount, it just cooks things. You can blow on it forever and it won't do anything.

That's why there are limitations to how close a large wattage light can be to a plant. If it's placed close enough for the IR to damage the plant, then it can't be compensated for. The only resolution is to increase the distance.

From 720 to 1000 nm, very little light is used by plants. It's mostly heat. From 1000 nm and higher, the light is totally IR and nothing but heat.

The *light* isn't what harms the plants. It's the heat that results. IR travels and reflects. It's not affected by air movement.

IR does dissipate over distance. That's why when you move your hand away from an IR source, the heat lessens. It's also why you have to maintain proper distance between light bulbs and plants.


----------



## 420FREEDOM (Sep 7, 2008)

YOur plasnts are literally starving. There is absolutely no nutrient in an inert soiless medium like you are using. There is no nutrient in water. Humans can only go a few days or so with no food, and plants are the same. Feed young plants at 1/4 strenght HYDRO ONLY nutrient. Keep temps below 80 deg.


----------



## pontiff (Sep 8, 2008)

the medium has some slow release fertilizer in it from the reading on the packet , but I went out today and got more food and an ec pen to measure it with. Gave them a watering with a half dose and we'll
See how the stems like that. On a related front, the leaves are starting to reach for the light , so that's a good thing?


----------



## pontiff (Sep 24, 2008)

Hi all,

Well.. im back and i have good news.  She is starting to behave and no more yellow leaves.

What I have done is

1) purchase another fan to use as intake and re'plub the exhaust so that intake is matched by exhaust (the house was balooning up previous due to inadequate piping for exhaust fan)

2) feeding on a 1200ppm solution at proper PH @ 25 degrees celcius from an airrated tub.  I bought a blue food pen thing from the local hydro shop..

Pictures are attached.  They are about a week old, and the plant has since moved on.  I think she had some trouble adapting to the hydro after being on 24x7 fluro for so long as some of the leaves looked like flowering leaves and there were the teltale white hairs, but the new shoots are just 5 fingered leaves and she is starting to grow which is good.

I suspect the tent is somewhat still a problem, but while the airflow is working nicely and the plant is growing, I dont want to mess with it.

Incidentally... I took your advice and went to 60cms.  I have now since been able to move it down to about 30cm !!!!!! and she is not burning and seems to love it.  Perhaps she needed that distance to get aclimatised (sp?) to the light then loved it and wanted it closer?

Pics are attached.  I'll post the new ones once I take them in the next day or so... but thanks to all


----------



## The Toker (Sep 24, 2008)

If your pictures are yellow, then you must be using HPS for veg?????
Higher color temp for veg would not give you the yellow, same bulbs used for photography. 5000k, 5500k, 6500k


----------



## pontiff (Sep 24, 2008)

Yes they are yellow.... the lights and such were given to me by a friend of mine who uses the same setup with very good results


----------



## The Toker (Sep 24, 2008)

Bulbs used for the veg stage are a blue white color, pictures would look like normal pictures. I think others have mentioned the same thing. I would do some homework on lighting. Good luck


----------

