# Dwc Vs Flood



## highman (May 20, 2009)

I am still undecided on which system to use i hear the DWC works really well for high yeilds but can be troublesome. the flood system is appealing to me becuase i have a good knowledge of it and have seen friends succed using the flood system. I got 12 free grodan rockwool cubes for free so i was thinking about just running a flood systemm i have a question for you all here. Everyone keeps telling me that the roots need to be out of the light at all times but i have personaly seen a q a plant from a flood system that the roots were exposed 24hrs a day they got as much sun as the plant did, how is this possible?


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## ishnish (May 20, 2009)

that's interesting...  roots got 24 hrs of light so the plants most have too??  how do you flower in a 24hr light cycle?
i gota know!!


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 20, 2009)

ishnish said:
			
		

> that's interesting... roots got 24 hrs of light so the plants most have too?? how do you flower in a 24hr light cycle?
> i gota know!!


 
He didn't say the plant and roots got light 24 hours a day, he said they wer exposed 24 hours a day and got just AS MUCH light as the plants.  This is actually being debated right now in a thread over in general hydroponics, check it out.


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## scatking (May 20, 2009)

exposing roots to light continuously is not a good idea.  they are extremely delicate and will begin to limit nutrient uptake if exposed.


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## highman (May 20, 2009)

NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer said:
			
		

> He didn't say the plant and roots got light 24 hours a day, he said they wer exposed 24 hours a day and got just AS MUCH light as the plants. This is actually being debated right now in a thread over in general hydroponics, check it out.


 
will do!


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## Shockeclipse (May 21, 2009)

I dont think it gets any easier than DWC.  Easy to build and all you do is check your ph, top up with water every now and then, change res ( I do mine once a week) and watch em grow.  My plants are crazy big after 35 days.


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## The New Girl (May 21, 2009)

Shockeclipse said:
			
		

> I dont think it gets any easier than DWC.  Easy to build and all you do is check your ph, top up with water every now and then, change res ( I do mine once a week) and watch em grow.  My plants are crazy big after 35 days.



   Hey Shock,
    I think you're right on. I have built many systems, mostly drip and aero. I have never built a DWC because it was too easy...haha. I still like the others but for a newbie it's almost - ALMOST foolproof. No water pumps to clog and fail, no drippers/emitters to clog, etc. Just spend the extra and get a good air pump (maybe a double) and good air stones. To make it easy for water changes I would install a plug/drain valve with a shutoff. This way you can just connect a garden house to drain if the tub is high enough or use a small pump to empty it. I know I can't lift any tubs with water, they're heavier than me!!! Horticulturesourcedotcom has great prices and quality stuff IMO. 

hxxp://www.horticulturesource.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=air+pump&search_in_description=1&osCsid=83f2d54155d6a42445a759a46e80d8e1


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## highman (May 22, 2009)

well i have been researching a deep flood system which uses 5 gallon buckets full of hydroton with a rockwool cube in the middle. This design seems as if it would work better than the typical "shallow system" the deep flood gives the roots more space to grow and it keeps the light off of the roots. my question is if i were to use this "deep" system when i was flooding my buckets would i need to bring the water level all the way up to the rockwool so it will soak or am i to bring the water level just short of the rockwool? I have a friend who is using a "shallow" system right now with his 6" rockwool cubes just sitting in an open tray taking a flood 3 times a day and he is producing very nice numbers with this setup. my question is soak the rockwool during the daily flood or keep it dry???? my rockwool cubes will be 6" as well.. i dont want to get root rot.

here is the design i mentioned

http://images.google.com/imgres?img...icrosoft:*:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7TSHB&sa=N&um=1


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## Shockeclipse (May 22, 2009)

The New Girl said:
			
		

> Hey Shock,
> I think you're right on. I have built many systems, mostly drip and aero. I have never built a DWC because it was too easy...haha. I still like the others but for a newbie it's almost - ALMOST foolproof. No water pumps to clog and fail, no drippers/emitters to clog, etc. Just spend the extra and get a good air pump (maybe a double) and good air stones. To make it easy for water changes I would install a plug/drain valve with a shutoff. This way you can just connect a garden house to drain if the tub is high enough or use a small pump to empty it. I know I can't lift any tubs with water, they're heavier than me!!! Horticulturesourcedotcom has great prices and quality stuff IMO.
> 
> hxxp://www.horticulturesource.com/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=air+pump&search_in_description=1&osCsid=83f2d54155d6a42445a759a46e80d8e1


My plants drink so much water that by the time I have to do a change my buckets dont weigh all that much, thats even with topping them off.  I built myself a mixing station where I mix all my nutes and adjust ph and let sit for a day or two before changing out my buckets.  Easy breezy lemon squeezy.  Plus mine are all indvidual five gal buckets so that makes it easier I think.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 22, 2009)

10 gallon DWC res's with 4-5 plants in each, I end up having to add a TON of water and nutrients when they get bigger.  I wasn't paying attention once and had 5 plants drink all 10 gallons of water to the point that the res was bone dry and the stone was sucking air in 3 days.


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## Shockeclipse (May 22, 2009)

highman said:
			
		

> well i have been researching a deep flood system which uses 5 gallon buckets full of hydroton with a rockwool cube in the middle. This design seems as if it would work better than the typical "shallow system" the deep flood gives the roots more space to grow and it keeps the light off of the roots. my question is if i were to use this "deep" system when i was flooding my buckets would i need to bring the water level all the way up to the rockwool so it will soak or am i to bring the water level just short of the rockwool? I have a friend who is using a "shallow" system right now with his 6" rockwool cubes just sitting in an open tray taking a flood 3 times a day and he is producing very nice numbers with this setup. my question is soak the rockwool during the daily flood or keep it dry???? my rockwool cubes will be 6" as well.. i dont want to get root rot.
> 
> here is the design i mentioned
> 
> http://images.google.com/imgresimgu...icrosoft:*:IE-SearchBox&rlz=1I7TSHB&sa=N&um=1


Sounds like over complicated DWC to me.  If I understand correctly that is. Do you flood it and then drain?  How do you drain it?


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## The Hemp Goddess (May 22, 2009)

Shockeclipse said:
			
		

> Sounds like over complicated DWC to me.  If I understand correctly that is. Do you flood it and then drain?  How do you drain it?



:yeahthat:  And why would you drain it?


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## The New Girl (May 22, 2009)

highman said:
			
		

> well i have been researching a deep flood system which uses 5 gallon buckets full of hydroton with a rockwool cube in the middle. This design seems as if it would work better than the typical "shallow system" the deep flood gives the roots more space to grow and it keeps the light off of the roots. my question is if i were to use this "deep" system when i was flooding my buckets would i need to bring the water level all the way up to the rockwool so it will soak or am i to bring the water level just short of the rockwool? I have a friend who is using a "shallow" system right now with his 6" rockwool cubes just sitting in an open tray taking a flood 3 times a day and he is producing very nice numbers with this setup. my question is soak the rockwool during the daily flood or keep it dry???? my rockwool cubes will be 6" as well.. i dont want to get root rot.
> 
> here is the design i mentioned
> 
> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hydroponicist.com/hydroponic-systems/images/hydropod.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hydroponicist.com/hydroponic-systems/flood-and-drain.htm&usg=__rwcwa96GW3rwvwvFIb8na_B0l8E=&h=470&w=670&sz=83&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=Zu3mmTvS7ntU3M:&tbnh=97&tbnw=138&prev=/images%3Fq%3Debb%2Band%2Bflow%2Bsystems%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7TSHB%26sa%3DN%26um%3D1



That looks like a nice system. If I were to go to the trouble to build that I would probably just do a drip system, though that one  will work fine. You can flood the rockwool and not worry about root rot as it allows for a lot of air and the rockwool is not in the water all the time. You can make a DWC system for around $40-$50...Depends how big -veg time- you want your plants to get and how many. If it's your 1st grow I would do a DWC system for very little investment. You will still need a pH meter, very important, probably more $$ than the system. My Hanna pH/TDS was $180 though you can find just a pH meter for around $30 for a cheaper one. Depends on the light size/kind of light(s) too...a lot of factors to consider. If your friend's system works fine why not copy that one...though remember rule #1 - Tell No One...


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## The New Girl (May 22, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> :yeahthat:  And why would you drain it?



Hi Hemp,
  It just drains back into the reservoir to be used again...


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## Shockeclipse (May 22, 2009)

So you have five gal buckets.... On top of a res..... How high is that?  It takes more than 20l of hydroten to fill a five gal bucket.... I don't know it just seems like an over fancy way to do things.  I would really not want to have another thing under my already tall buckets in my DWC.


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## highman (May 22, 2009)

I like the design myself, but would agree with the over compilication of it. For a first time grow in a small space i dont think this would be the best option but if i had an unlimited space i would love to give this a try. Dammit i wish i could just run each plant in its own system and see which one works the best before i buy a big system.


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## StoneyBud (May 22, 2009)

Shockeclipse said:
			
		

> I dont think it gets any easier than DWC. Easy to build and all you do is check your ph, top up with water every now and then, change res ( I do mine once a week) and watch em grow. My plants are crazy big after 35 days.


Building an Ebb and Flow takes some effort.

Other than that, it's one step easier than DWC. You never have to change out your reservoir solution until the crop is finished.

That removes a weekly chore.

Here's the list of what you have to do with Ebb and Flow:

1. Every second or third day, you top off your reservoir and move your light up if needed.

That's it.

That makes it a lot easier than DWC.


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## highman (May 22, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Building an Ebb and Flow takes some effort.
> 
> Other than that, it's one step easier than DWC. You never have to change out your reservoir solution until the crop is finished.
> 
> ...


 

whats with all the manufactured flood systems not coming with a top to cover up the roots from the light? the blocks just sit in a tray. I quess my only beef with the flood system is that when the cubes are sitting in the tray it would force the roots to grow sideways out of the cubes as opposed to strait out the bottom. The thought of forcing the roots to do anything other than grow with gravity makes me second quess myself.


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## StoneyBud (May 22, 2009)

highman said:
			
		

> whats with all the manufactured flood systems not coming with a top to cover up the roots from the light? the blocks just sit in a tray. I quess my only beef with the flood system is that when the cubes are sitting in the tray it would force the roots to grow sideways out of the cubes as opposed to strait out the bottom. The thought of forcing the roots to do anything other than grow with gravity makes me second quess myself.


You're supposed to cover the cubes with hydroton. That keeps the roots from hitting light. Roots don't know down from up. They grow wherever they can. Gravity has nothing to do with root growth.


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## highman (May 22, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> You're supposed to cover the cubes with hydroton. That keeps the roots from hitting light. Roots don't know down from up. They grow wherever they can. Gravity has nothing to do with root growth.


 
well i think im going to just use a flood system seems easier to me


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 22, 2009)

DWC is actually much much easier to use than flood and drain.  It is much more dependable in my experience.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 22, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Building an Ebb and Flow takes some effort.
> 
> Other than that, it's one step easier than DWC. You never have to change out your reservoir solution until the crop is finished.
> 
> ...


 
No disrespect, but I would disagree with these statements.  You can run multiple resevoirs with a single air pump that has multiple outlets, but a flood and drain system with segregated containers that did not share water would require a different water pump for each res.  You have one less resevoir to deal with in general in DWC.  You are using air pumps instead of water pumps which in my opionion are more reliable and cheaper.
If I was going DWC or flood and drain I would still not let the res solution go the whole way through without ever changing the res.  Changing out your res can every 7-14 days with fresh water isn't exactly a huge chore.  
It is really a matter of preference and each has their advantages, but after using both I can safely say that flood and drain is in no way a lot easier.


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## StoneyBud (May 23, 2009)

The relationship between reservoir volume and grow chambers should be based on 600% of what is used per/day. That can be one gallon or a thousand gallons. It makes no difference.

The reason you should never have to change the solution in an Ebb and Flow that is properly built is that the total volume of the reservoir is used every 6 days. One sixth of the total volume is replace daily or 1/3 if done on alternating days. This rapid use cycle prevents the need to replace the solution, as it's replaced as used and never gets more than 6 days old by volume.

The key to a proper Ebb and Flow setup is to have a reservoir or a series of reservoirs that are connected and exactly 1/6th of the total volume of the combined reservoirs are used each day. This is all done with one pump that is sized according to the volume needed to fill all of the grow chambers within 30 minutes.

Having separate reservoirs for a multiple grow chamber setup would be an amateurs method of building an Ebb and Flow system. It would make no sense to do it that way.

If a quality pump is used, it can last for years. With pumps, you really do get what you pay for. Beckett fountain pumps are, IMO, one of the best that money will buy.

As you said, it's really a matter of preference. To one person, an Ebb and Flow may be preferred as would DWC be preferred by someone else. Just as most things in life.

DWC has been around much longer than Ebb and Flow.

DWC was invented and perfected by the Aztecs. They fed entire populations with the "Floating Gardens" that were in the outskirts of every Aztec city. Instead of containers, they used floating rafts with holes in them and different sizes and configurations of baskets to hold various types of food crops. The plants roots would hang into a lake much as the tub type DWC works now. The Aztec farmers would have slaves that would use large fans to blow fresh air across the lakes to increase the oxygenation of the water. After thousands of years of using this method, they truly perfected it. The DWC you're using today is a much smaller scale of the same system used by the Aztecs for many, many centuries.

Ebb and Flow, on the other hand, is an off-shoot of NFT, (Nutrient Flow Technique), which was invented by the United States Army to feed it's troops stationed initially in the Aleutian Islands. The islands were almost solid rock and had virtually no top soil to support the growth of plants. The Army had no choice but to ship every single bite of food that the troops stationed there ate. This was incredibly expensive, as you can imagine.

The Army Corp of Engineers developed an experimental method of growing vegetable produce with no soil, in troughs dug in the ground on an incline. A mixture of nutrients was created by the current day scientists to feed the vegetables without the benefit of soil.

After only a couple of years, the method we now know as NFT was perfected and enough food could be locally grown by the troops to feed them entirely. Meats were also raised, butchered and used entirely by the troops on the islands. One shipload of grains and fodder for the animals was enough to provide an easy, inexpensive method of feeding the troops.

Both the NFT and meat raising techniques learned at the Aleutians were used in many places during the last half of WWII and made it possible to station troops in places previously cost prohibitive due to food supply.

Ebb and Flow and later, aeroponic gardening were both attempts at increasing the production rates of NFT methods.

Hydroponic gardening is a fascinating subject that has interested me for most of my life.

Let's not bicker about which is considered better than the other and all just enjoy the fruits of the process of Hydroponics.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 23, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> for a multiple grow chamber setup would be an amateurs method of building an Ebb and Flow system. It would make no sense to do it that way.
> Let's not bicker about which is considered better than the other and all just enjoy the fruits of the process of Hydroponics.


 
I'm not bickering, I'm debating, that is what this thread was for.  But you do bring up something that also needs to be pointed out when comparing DWC and flood and drain.  Like you said it would make no sense to have multiple grow chambers in an ebb and flow however, having multiple chambers (which is much easier in DWC), makes it possible to grow plants at different stages of growth.  You can not put 4 plants 6 weeks into flower in the same table as 4 plants 1 week into flower because they need different levels of nutes.  Therefore with ebb and flow you must grow in batches.  This may not be appealing to the small closet grower going for personal.  With multiple DWC containers run by a single multi-outlet air pump he can grow plants at different stages of growth AND multiple strains at the same time under the same light that all require different nute levels, something not possible on a single ebb and flow table.

Again I am not arguing with you, just debating the merits of each system


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## StoneyBud (May 23, 2009)

NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer said:
			
		

> I am not arguing with you, just debating the merits of each system


I understand and you're correct in what you say about growing at various stages at once.

It's a matter of what type of growing someone wishes to do and how they wish to do it.


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