# No more bad timers



## Growdude

Made this today at work  
It is a 30 amp relay controlled by the timer so no load passes thru the timer.
Also has built in amp gauge to monitor current draw.


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## bombbudpuffa

Cool. That's a nice lil invention.


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## allgrownup

Totally blatant use of a safety device........might as well put a fire extinguisher in the room while your at it....


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## Growdude

allgrownup said:
			
		

> Totally blatant use of a safety device........might as well put a fire extinguisher in the room while your at it....


 
I dont get it ?


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## Weeddog

Nice to see someone else besides me is using contactors to carry the load of those lights.  This does take all the load off the timer.  I never thought of the amp guage tho.  Great idea dude.  Looks very safe to me.


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## MrPuffAlot

Can you make me one??


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## someguy

so hows this timer workin for ya now?


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## Tater

That is awesome, really really awesome, thats exactly what I need.  Expect a PM from me in the comming weeks my friend, I may need to pick your brain.  Nice work.


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## Growdude

someguy said:
			
		

> so hows this timer workin for ya now?


 
Still working, im going to be on grow 3 with it soon.


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## meds4me

GREAT JOB ! thats the kind of thing to pass on to others !!!


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## smokybear

Nice work my friend. Take care and be safe.


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## DonJones

I'm just a little confused about what the purpose of the Ammeter is.  If you know what the input specs are for your light set up and you are using a heavier rated circuit, then why do you care what the actual amperage is?

I'm not criticizing you, just asking for your reasoning so that I'll understand the purpose for it.

Also, for us that are a little -- or a lot-- less knowledgeable about household/commercial electrical things, where can we find these AC relays and boxes?

Approximately what should we expect to pay for the components for the relay, components and box?

Thanks for the great idea!

Don Jones


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## Growdude

DonJones said:
			
		

> I'm just a little confused about what the purpose of the Ammeter is.  If you know what the input specs are for your light set up and you are using a heavier rated circuit, then why do you care what the actual amperage is?
> 
> I'm not criticizing you, just asking for your reasoning so that I'll understand the purpose for it.
> 
> Also, for us that are a little -- or a lot-- less knowledgeable about household/commercial electrical things, where can we find these AC relays and boxes?
> 
> Approximately what should we expect to pay for the components for the relay, components and box?
> 
> Thanks for the great idea!
> 
> Don Jones



I plug 2 400 watt lights and some fans into it, lets me make sure Im not pushing thing too much, Really it was just laying around so I said Yea thats trick.
As for the relay A electrical supply or try Mcmaster carr.com
Prob. around 50$ for the timer and box or so.


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## DonJones

My idea was to use something like this to control several low current items at once with one timer.  Like say using the relay to power 8 duplex plugs and run 15 air farm hydro setups off of one time and another identical setup to run the air stones to aerate the 15 individual reservoirs off of one other timer, and finally another relay to run the lights and fans of off another single timer.

Is that kind of what you had in mind, as well as reducing the current load on the timers.

I can understand using the ammeter just because you had it around.  I've done similar things myself.

Thanks for the idea and the quick explanation.

Don Jones


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## Growdude

DonJones said:
			
		

> My idea was to use something like this to control several low current items at once with one timer.  Like say using the relay to power 8 duplex plugs and run 15 air farm hydro setups off of one time and another identical setup to run the air stones to aerate the 15 individual reservoirs off of one other timer, and finally another relay to run the lights and fans of off another single timer.
> 
> Is that kind of what you had in mind, as well as reducing the current load on the timers.
> 
> I can understand using the ammeter just because you had it around.  I've done similar things myself.
> 
> Thanks for the idea and the quick explanation.
> 
> Don Jones



The main reason to use this is in high current applications to save the timer contacts.


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## DonJones

Growdude,

I have come up with a new question that I think the answer to is probably "Yes, it'll work." but I want to be sure before I try it.

I was thinking of using 2 of your relays controlled off of one timer.  My timers all have 2 outlets.  I was thinking of using one outlet to control the relay in the box and the other outlet to control a second relay/outlet box powered by a second circuit by connecting an extension cord from the timer outlet through the control circuit only on the second relay and then running the separate second circuit through the Input/Output circuit only.  

My logic is that the control circuit is electrically separate from the switched circuit and do NOT have to be powered from the same source circuit. ( in fact if I remember my AC 110 v electrical stuff correctly, I could even plug the timer into a wall outlet, put the 2 relays on the 2 opposing legs of a 220 v line from the breaker box and control the 2 relays with the extension cords from the timer that is plugged into the wall outlet.)  Is that correct and will it work?

If my explanation/question is confusing, please let me know and I'll try to sketch a schematic for you.

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and for your patience?

Don Jones


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## Growdude

DonJones said:
			
		

> Growdude,
> 
> I have come up with a new question that I think the answer to is probably "Yes, it'll work." but I want to be sure before I try it.
> 
> I was thinking of using 2 of your relays controlled off of one timer.  My timers all have 2 outlets.  I was thinking of using one outlet to control the relay in the box and the other outlet to control a second relay/outlet box powered by a second circuit by connecting an extension cord from the timer outlet through the control circuit only on the second relay and then running the separate second circuit through the Input/Output circuit only.
> 
> My logic is that the control circuit is electrically separate from the switched circuit and do NOT have to be powered from the same source circuit. ( in fact if I remember my AC 110 v electrical stuff correctly, I could even plug the timer into a wall outlet, put the 2 relays on the 2 opposing legs of a 220 v line from the breaker box and control the 2 relays with the extension cords from the timer that is plugged into the wall outlet.)  Is that correct and will it work?
> 
> If my explanation/question is confusing, please let me know and I'll try to sketch a schematic for you.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your knowledge and for your patience?
> 
> Don Jones



If I understand correctly it will work.
The timer can turn on 2 relays with no problem, then if you had 2 different source voltages  it would be fine.  
And yes you could use it to control a 220 volt line with a 120  circuit.


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## DonJones

Here is the start of my multiple circuit light controller, based off of Growdude's original timer saving controller.

Basically all I did was use a relay that had 2 poles like his, but instead of running both the line and neutral legs of the 120V circuit thorough the relay I only ran the line legs through it.  Then I used a 2 wire extension cord to connect the timer to the control circuit of the relay.  While not as neat and self contained as Growdude's original, my versiion lets me control 2 separate circuits with one timer because I'm geeting too many lights to run on one plugin circuit.  Using extension cords instead of plugs and sockets enables me to mount the control box where ever I want it and run the extension cords to it.

It only made sense to me to use 1 timer and relay to control the 2 line legs of 2 separate circuits rather than to interrupt both legs of only one circuit.

This will be a  work in progress so there will be other pictures later.

The attached circuit diagram has Grow dude's original diagram on top --IT IS MISTAKENLY LABELED AS BEING TATER'S --SORRY GUYS --and on the bottom is my version of the diagram showing running 2 power extension cords in with only the line legs going through the relay and the neutral and ground wires just going along the side of the relay.  I also use a simple 2 wire extension cord to power the holding coil in the relay -- a 3 wire cord could just as easily be used but then you would have to fasten the ground wire some where and my relay doesn't have any provisions for a ground wire.  I apologize for the poor quality of my diagram, but it is hand sketched and I do not claim to be a draftsman. 

The picture is of the parts that I will be using to build my Light Controller.  Not shown here are the various extension cords needed.  In the background is the used construction power center that I will be using for a box.  I will leave the circuit breaker assemblies installed to that I can use this for the power distribution center too when I finally get my new 220v circuit ran to the grow room.  Please ignore it for this project.

I'll post pictures of the results when I get it done.

Good Smoking.


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## DonJones

I forgot to attach the diagram and picture.  My only excuse is that we have a lot of turmoil here today and I keep getting interrupted.

Good smoking*

Edited by DonJones -- The darn diagram didn't upload for some reason so if you need it we can try PMing it to somebody and letting them post it.  Basically, I just used the same diagram only ran one circuit through each half of the relay and back to ground without going back through the relay. Then I did the same thing with the other half of the relay.  The other thing is YOU MUST USE 2 DIFFERENT POWER SOURCES FOR THE CONTROLLED LIGHT CIRCUITS and I also used a separate cord from the timer to the control circuit in the relay so that I can mount the box where ever I need it. *

I just checked the attachment manager and it was a pdf file and I guess the manager doesn't like PDF files. 

View attachment Light Control circuits0001.pdf


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## DonJones

Let's try again.  I just shrunk it down to my circuit and saved it as a jpg file.

Good smoking.

Edited by DonJones:  Finally got it.


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## leafminer

Good work Don.:goodposting: 
Soon we will hear that you're using a giant computer like in bad sf movies with big spinning tape reels and a huge underground greenhouse right under the noses of the busies.:farm:


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## zem

i got this great timer from legrand hxxp://www.electro-mpo.ru/en/card6939.html the same used for my water heater it's been there for years takes the load which is much more than my grow very easily, as small as a little breaker fits inside the wall box perfectly. it's been runnin like 5yrs straight in my grow and more than 10yrs in the house i think it jest never breaks on the other hand ive had to fix the digital hunter timer that feeds my plants several times. the only relay i use is for the hunter timer cuz it's 24v and i need to power my pump with it, the legrand timer has its built in relay and when they say it can take a load, then it can easily do. btw why do you guys build these relays? just askin i dont get it cuz you find them much more compact in all electricity stores, are not expensive have multi outlets and take loads very well


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## DonJones

Well, ZEM, some of us just like using our hands to build things.  I will bet a lot of money that your so-called "not all that expensive" can't ouch our not expensive DIY stuff.

Including the digital timer, the relay, the extension cords and the box I will have under $15.00 and maybe 8 hours of fiddling around doing something I enjoy.  And I will have the ability to control 2 different 30 amp circuits with one timer instead of having 2 analog timers and need a special box.  Depending upon how many duplex plug socket that I choose to use I can use a virtually unlimited number of devices on each circuit.

Does that explain why we build these controllers rather than buying stuff like you antiquated analog timer?

Good smoking.


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## DonJones

leafminer,

You give me too much credit.  I'm just a widely experienced jack of all trades and master of none that has accumulated an huge amount of junk over the years and try to use what is at hand as much as possible.

The power box, I picked out of the trash at a construction site.  As near as i can tell the 3 breakers still work and all three plug sockets worked when I go them.  The only this that I bought were the wire ends, the extension cords and the relay.  The relay cost  $2.00 at a used supply house and the light duty extension cord to the control solenoid is one that I used for years on my flat bed to run clearance lights on oversized loads.  Add to that the $12.00 for 2 extension cords and you are well under $15.00.

I admit to thinking outside the box and adapting things to purposes that they usually aren't used for, but not to being scientist either mad or sane.

Good smoking man.


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## zem

i see Don, i'm a DIY myself, i build my own trays from wood scraps and vineyl sheets i do my netpots with plastic coffee cups and a heat probe electronic board welder i build whole chambers etc.. etc.. im unfortunate not to have any hydro stores around however i am fortunate i have a very diverse competetive market where i can find good stuff for cheaper. actually my relay was something around 15$ brand new but this was few years back so i think it would be round 20 or so by now not more and my timer was exactly 24$ then, such amounts id rather pay and not do it myself. however i have a future project in mind on which you might have ideas, i want to power everything watering lights fans using an old computer and i have the way to do it in theory just need to apply it  would it interest you?


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## Growdude

Nice too see you adapting my little controller Don.

I would have done the same thing if needing to control 2 legs of power, my grow only uses 1 circuit so I switched both Hot and neutral even tho I didnt need too.

Another modification can be to use the normally closed contact to turn on a heater when the lights go off if needed.


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## DonJones

ZEM,

I don't know much about using computers to control circuits other than somehow you use the computer to basically turn relays off and on, but I know there is more to it than that.  The person you really need to talk to would be the guy who designed the circuitry for Bil Gates' entirely computerized house, but he probably isn't available.

If I understand the theory behind it and the limited amount of choices you need to make, even an old 8086 would be way more power than you would need.

I could probably come up with a flow chart for designing it but that is about the extent of my programing skills anymore and like I said I know nothing about the hardware end.  All of my computing experience has been data processing, but I'd sure like to learn the practical use of controlling outside circuits with a computer.  GOD if it wasn't that electronic/mechanical devices always fail sooner or later, you could design, set up and leave a grow area, even hydro for extended periods of time, like vacations, and even check on the conditions remotely so long as both computers had Internet or closed circuit connectivity.  But you have more than likely already thought far beyond this point.  I'm just thinking out loud on a visual media to help organize and record my thoughts.

I'd be real glad to look at your ideas.  Until we got down to specifics it might be helpful to use a thread of your making to communicate, because who knows what good ideas we might get along with the not so relevant or practical suggestions.  

Also, I have outside access to some people with a background in this.  My grandson was studying to be a robotics engineer and my adopter daughter studied for a while to be a bio med repair tech so I know she has some experience with using computers to control relays and servo motors and so on.

Go ahead and start your thread and I'll try to subscribe to it.

Great idea if it doesn't become overkill.

Good smoking.


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## DonJones

Growdude,

I'm glad you like it.

For the other readers who may not think like we do, what I have done here is actually a 3 step process of modification of Growdude's original controller minus the ammeter which I don't need or have.

First, I thought about using his circuit with a remote timer plugged into a wall outlet to control the relay rather than a self contained arrangement like he used allowing the same timer to also control other things some where else.

Second I though about using the 2 pole relay to control the 2 hot legs of a 240V circuit which could be used either as a 240V circuit or split into several 120V circuits through a power distribution center. *Splitting out 240 v to 120v circuits is a topic that needs to be addressed elsewhere as it can get tricky and dangerous if you don't know what you are doing or follow directions EXACTLY.  Please do NOT try it unless you are qualified to do so or have qualified help to oversee your efforts, in which case you wouldn't be asking for guidance from the forums.*

Then I thought about splitting the 240v circuit into 2 120v circuits BEFORE the controller -- in this case clear back at the main circuit breaker panel about 35' away from the grow room.

This current project is the result of all 3 steps in my development.  I probably would not ever have thought about it I Growdude hadn't planted the idea in my head with his original plan.  The second step of using the 240v circuit will be obvious to any one qualified to be doing this.  *120V can hurt or even kill you but 240v is even worse. Household electrical stuff is really fairly simple if you under stand what is happening an what you are doing --well within the abilities of most of the members, but it can be very harmful if not done correctly.  The plans and recommendations of the electrically experienced and skill member should NOT changed in any way unless you are also skilled in this field.*

Thanks Growdude for the idea and for your approval of my modications.

Good Smoking everyone and Merry Christmas!


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## DonJones

Here is the overview of the remote timer switched relay controlled power box.  Currently it is only one 120V circuit because that is my critical need.

When I started the plugin outlets were wired to the circuit breakers in the center of the box.  I removed the wiring from the circuit breaker and ground bars to the outlets; removed the outlets and wired them together in parallel.

I then installed the relay in the end of the box closest to the outlets.  Next I ran a 6' piece of 14 guage exdtension cord through the clamp at the lower right corner of the box, along side of the relay, through the conduit to the outlet  area.   I used that location simply because there was already a knockout removed there and the conduit was already there between the box and the outlet box, which was also tack welded to the box making it more trouble to separate than it was worth.

Using split male spade crimp terminals on the ends of the extension cord wires, I connected it to the closest outlet and then reinstalled them into the their original location.  Leaving some slack in case I needed to remove the outlets in the future, I marked the cord just before the leading edge of the relay and just after the back edge.  I then slit the outer insulation jacket between the two marks.  I cut the black wire in the middle of the exposed area and attached female spade crimp connectors to the ends of the black wire.  I attached the black wire to opposing ends of the same pole on the relay.

Then I ran the light duty 2 wire extension cord through the same clamp and attached it to the control connectors on the lower part of the relay using the female spade crimp connectors again.

Finally I pulled the excess lengths on both cords back outside of the box and tightened the clamp.

To add the other circuit when I get a chance, I'll just run a cord  though another hole in the box along side the relay, split the outer jacket and attach the black wire to the relay just like I did this time and terminate the cord in another outlet box that I will either remote from the box or attach to the box some where.  At that time the timer will control 2 circuits of 120V at once with only an amp at the most running through the timer, and probably closer to 1/4 amp.  That will make one timer do the work of 2 and last a lot longer.  The relay is rated at 25 amps per leg and the heaviest circuit I have into the grow area is 20 amps so the relay should last a long time too.

Now I just need to locate the cover plates for the boxes -- I took them off when I stole one of the original 3 outlets for something so long ago I don't remember what I needed it for.

If you are working with used equipment, it is a good idea to test the components before assembling every thing.  My first relay was bad so I had to switch it out.  Fortunately when I take it back Monday my supplier will just replace it.

If anyone has any questions that I've overlooked, just ask.

Do NOT use anything electrical with the covers missing.  They are there to protect you from electrocution or shock.

Use safely and good smoking evry one!  MERRY CHRISTMAS


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## DonJones

Here is the final 2 120v circuit remote timer controlled power center without the cover over the relay/breaker box (the breakers are not in use) and old outlet box covers.  (I am still looking for where they got put when I robbed the one outlet years ago.)

As you can see if you look carefully all that has changed is I added another incoming power cord at the upper right, ran it down ot the bottom side of the relay and across to the connector to the new outlet box and wired ti to the outlets.  Then I carefully split the insulation along side the relay, pulled the black wire out far enough to cut it in the middle, attach the female spade terminals to the ends and connect them to the relay.

Relays do not know which way you have them wired up, so long as the solenoid circuit is connected to both legs of a switchable circuit and the the circuits that the relay controls are each wire through the same poleof the relay.

In my power center I have the incoming power wire hooked to the left terminal of the top pole and the out going wire hooked to the right terminal and the other one hooked up just backwards -- but in both cases they are each connected to opposite ends of the same pole.

To keep the outlets boxes tight with just one connector, they were both tack welded to the main box after the connectors were in place and tightened up so that they could not turn on the connectors and work the jam nuts loose.

It is very ghetto, but now I'm controlling 5 400 watt lights safely without worrying about overloading the timer. * Please do NOT use electrical equipment without the covers and other safety devices in place and working properly.* *It only takes one shock to permanently change your life!*  Yes , please do as I say not as I do.

Thanks again to Growdude for the excellent ideas.

Good smoking.


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## Tater

DonJones, what you need to control electronics is a microcontroller, most can be programmed in high level languages, Atmel and PIC both make very popular microcontrollers.  I just ordered a STK600 development kit and am going to start designing my own open source garden controller.  More of a side project than anything but I will share my success and failures with you guys.  Most likely won't get a chance to play with it till sometime int he new year.


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## zem

hey there Don and everyone  i just started a thread, you might be very helpful with your info,  the $10 smart grow system usin an old computer! check it out http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50707


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## sopappy

DonJones said:


> Let's try again.  I just shrunk it down to my circuit and saved it as a jpg file.
> 
> Good smoking.
> 
> Edited by DonJones:  Finally got it.



Way better than running the current through those dinky timers, I wouldn't do that myself. I like that nice big fat relay, good move.
But I would not use extension cords, run the 20A solid stuff
(don't be shy about touching (insulated  wiring and components to test for heat. Don't use barrier strips either.... I have a picture somewhere

hahaha 2009, how did I end up here?


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