# dont mention LED's



## epicstuff

Why is it that theres big arguments over CFL's and HID's but not a mention of LED lighting.  

I'd love to know is there anyone really trying them out;  is there any proper comparisons done.   

I've been reading alot of manufactures claims etc and the theory sounds good .  They seem efficient  energy wise,   more targeted by way of spectrum range. and makes a lot of sense for stealth growers.   I would have thought if all these claims were true then there would be people shout out the virtues of them  but  type LED in the search engine on this forum and ZERO comes up.

 Are there any pro growers out there that  use  them and can endorse them?

I'd love to get some feedback..   wheres Hick?  he's always breaking down the figures lumen for lumen.  how do these work out  I know they are a little  ( alot) more costly to  buy but how long would the to take to make the difference back  from energy saving ?


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## tastyness

They are actually mentioned often.  
The search engine on this site doesn't do well with three letter terms.

Try this: 
PASTE this into google search bar (or browser window)

LED site:marijuanapassion.com


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## 4u2sm0ke

I have a few Ill send ya....some use them for sprouting only...Ive only seen a few peeps have a grow useing LED...but never a finished product....they are way more $$$$  and dont put out the lumes....I would spend the money on good ventilation than I would LEDS..just my thaughts


take care and be safe


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## The Hemp Goddess

Actually, we do talk about LEDs here whenever the subject is brought up.  We are not using them because they do not work well.  Most of us here have checked into LEDs and found them lacking.  IMO, they are simply too much money to be buying to experiment with personally.  Thee are some who use them for vegging and do okay.  However when it comes to flowering, it is another story.  I have never seen an LED grow that I was impressed with--Salespeople with videos on You Tube don't count.  Others cannot duplicate their supposed results.  We know they hype the fixtures up and claim ridiculous results.  The fixtures are really expensive.  For over 10 years, I have been thinking that LEDs were the wave of the future, but I am beginning to wonder.  I really have not seen much in the way of improvements for growing in that time span and they are still horribly expensive.  Until I start seeing some grows that actually produce something, I will stick with my T5s and HPS.


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## gourmet

I use led's for sprouting and seedlings only and with the led's a  couple of inches from the seedlings they still stretch.


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## AluminumMonster

@4u2 you have too seen finished product...lol. over at 'C'... P Jennings is getting results that are as good or better than HID. And the price is more than reasonable. People, the future is now...it takes some research and dialing in but the results I've seen would destroy everyones negative view on LED's.


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## Bogart Mc Thunderdunk

ive seen some good results on short autoflowers on a different forum. less light penetration needed. might do well for scrogs.
from what ive read most leds out there are useless but a few brands make good ones. blackstar are supposedly good cheap ones with 3w chips(i think)


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## AluminumMonster

Google Cidly LED's, the Apollo series, these are the ones my buddy uses and has had incredible results. I am in know way tell a newbie to go out and jump in head first with both feet... PJ is a very experienced hydro grower.

You can customize these lights and housings to your spedificatios with out added cost as well.


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## Hick

epicstuff said:
			
		

> I've been reading alot of manufactures claims etc and the theory sounds good .  They seem efficient  energy wise,   more targeted by way of spectrum range. and makes a lot of sense for stealth growers.*   I would have thought if all these claims were true then there would be people shout out the virtues of them*  but  type LED in the search engine on this forum and ZERO comes up.
> 
> Are there any pro growers out there that  use  them and can endorse them?
> 
> I'd love to get some feedback..   wheres Hick?  he's always breaking down the figures lumen for lumen.  how do these work out  I know they are a little  ( alot) more costly to  buy but how long would the to take to make the difference back  from energy saving ?



if the manufacturers claims were true, I think a LOT of ppl would be screaming their virtues. But...you just don't see it... If all the youtube clams were true, you'd see it.... but you don't..:confused2:
We've had a limited number of 'posers' come along with similar claims, but "not once" have a single one documented an entire grow for our viewing pleasure. They usually drop in, make a lotta' outrageous claims, leave a mess o' spam, then hightail it as soon as their bluff is called..
  I'm on the same boat as thg I think. I've been saying/thinking that led's are going to be the next big break through in grow lighting, I just ain't seen it yet.


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## AluminumMonster

I can't disagree with most of what Hick said... there are very few successful,well documented grows posted on the web.  Plus most of the manufacturers out there are making completely false claims about their results. They can't be trusted at all. I can only speak about what I've seen, and that was a finished, well documented grow using only LED's for flower.  Keep in mind this is only one person I've seen pull it off, but wow did he pull it off.


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## epicstuff

Oh dear ,, there goes another brain wave.. so Is 'Aluminium Monster' working for the LED companies or is he straight up?

So.... if a LED company turned around and offered to back their claim with a free trial to a reputable grower would they take it up or is the mistrust still there with the equipment?

would you HG or Hick use your grow space on a free trial?

Is the problem lack of frequency range or   lack of penitration.  
Just trying to work out what they need to sort out. If its penitration I suppose they need higher w led chips if its Frequency range they can just use more different wavelength LEDs (which they offer). I see some now offering an UV  Bla bla bla maybe 7 or so different wave length or color temp led's in there boards.  
Maybe thats  far to simplified a question to ask. I know there are so many factor behind the science of lighting to answer that in any easy form.

I'm just interested because  I was invited to become an agent for a company in china after making some enquiries  about the stuff.  I was curious why there was a lack of solid feedback from anyone.   Seems there are so many companies out there make the stuff now specifically for horticulture, I assumed they must have made some kind of breakthrough. It would be great to get involved *if they were* on the verge of revalutionizing growing   ...


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## Hick

I've thought they were "on the verge" for a few years now..:confused2:  What I have deduced from what I've 'seen' here. There is a significant difference in quality between manufacturers, and 'good' ones are the expensive ones. 
  I doubt aluminummonster is a pawn of the led mnf... or he'd be the LEDmonster..


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## AluminumMonster

Sorry to disapoint... but no I don't work for anyone, just myself. My garden takes care of my needs lol. All I was trying to do was let ppl know that I finaly found a good start to finish LED grow. Honestly, I just got my GR to the point where im content. 2800w of hps in flower and almost 500w of T5's for veg. I wont be making the switch to LED's untill the end of next year most likely, but I will be making the switch.


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## The Hemp Goddess

If I had a spare closet, I would give a free LED a test grow, but I wouldn't want it to be the only thing I had going on.  I simply have not seen any grows I was impressed with.  I have been thinking that they were on the verge of a breakthrough 10 years ago--I just don't think there is going to be any big breakthrough.  I think that slowly they are going to get better and larger wattage LEDs that may at some point be strong enough to flower, but I don't expect any big breakthrough.  I would be very very leery of foreign LED companies trying to get you to peddle their product.

Also with something like LEDs, results that are obtainable by one should be obtainable by most....and it isn't.  It is cool that Peter Jennings is getting some good results, but if that is the only one you have seen, well, it doesn't say much for LEDs as a whole.  He is a very experienced grower as mentioned.  I am thinking that LEDs are going to require a whole bunch of micro management, too.


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## Growdude

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> It is cool that Peter Jennings is getting some good results, but if that is the only one you have seen, well, it doesn't say much for LEDs as a whole. He is a very experienced grower as mentioned.


 

Just think what this guy would pull with a real light.


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## AluminumMonster

He replaced all of his 1k hps with LED's... and is getting equal to or better than his previous results.  How can you say they aren't real lights?

Also, I never said LED's as a whole... I mentioned one brand and one grower.


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## The Hemp Goddess

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> He replaced all of his 1k hps with LED's... and is getting equal to or better than his previous results.  How can you say they aren't real lights?
> 
> Also, I never said LED's as a whole... I mentioned one brand and one grower.



Actually, that was my point--one brand and one grower.  Unless others can duplicate the results of one person, I cannot help but believe that the lights are not ready to be a standard for growing and I cannot recommend them as a good lighting source, especially for a beginner.  Since the lights need to be kept so close, there is going to be a lot of micro-management.  No one is saying that no one anywhere every had a good LED grow.  We are saying that they simply do not produce the results the salespeople are claiming and are still a ways away from being the best choice for growing.


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## Old_SSSC_Guy

I follow you completely Monster, but have you *personally* done it or seen it done first hand?  The only 'successes' I have seen have been on YouTube and the web - and none from growers with enough experience to know whether what they got was proportionate.  Some of those who claim success might feel that way - but its relative deprivation; they never grew under real light so they think that any return means 'it works great'.  There are also people who claim that CFLs are "wonderful" for full-cycle growing.  Cough... cough...

Not meaning you any disrespect - not meant that way.  Only that I simply don't believe the high results quoted from most LED grows.  And when you get enough of them daisy-chained to put off a theoretical "enough" light - the heat and noise from them is just sick; and (I think) you still get 40%-70% less return for the wattage and $$ invested.

Just not seeing the value I guess.  A 1000 watt light works, costs MUCH less, and can deliver known, proven, accepted returns.  That much I know.  Just don't see an advantage to LEDs for grow lights - yet.

Buy one and prove me wrong buddy - and I'll get on the bandwagon... heh...




			
				AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> He replaced all of his 1k hps with LED's... and is getting equal to or better than his previous results.  How can you say they aren't real lights?
> 
> Also, I never said LED's as a whole... I mentioned one brand and one grower.


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## AluminumMonster

Ok, so back to the original questions...

Q;Are there people trying them out?  A; Yes there are a few people trying out LED's. PJ being one.
Q;Are there any actual comparisons being done?  A; Yes, PJ has performed multiple comparisons with multiple strains. I believe he has posted  some of his results at cannazon.  

As for the manufacturers claims, well, don't believe 99% of them. Get to know a good grower who has experience with the product you have questions about. I repeat: Don't jump in head first with both feet.

Q; Are there any growers who endorse LED's? A; Only one that I know of at the moment. I do however know 2 other growers that have made the plunge and will start posting results shortly.    

A.M.


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## Wetdog

When the cost drops like micro chips did, to under $1 each we should see an explosion.

I've been waiting too, but right now it's too much $$$$ for too little benefit.

Wet


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## epicstuff

Great Debate.  I think I have all the answers I was looking for ,  cheers all.

Tying to find some T5 in the damned country.


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## Munkers

I am doing a LED grow and it just so happens to be my first ever grow. I dont know how its going to go but I am giving it a shot... The light did not cost me that much and so far it appears that I am having good result, with the help from a few awsome people on here and adjustments everything is coming along.... I am hoping it all goes well but we will just have to see. Feel free to check it out a couple pics under the indoor section labeled my first grow.


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## my my

Hey Friends, 
Been awhile  
AluminumMonster is not talking Smack here...
I am also using Cidly's Apollo 4's currently.
I will round up some pics to share with ya.
will be Sunday before picture day, and resizing pics to post them here.
But a quick summery can be...
i grew the mom out under a 600 hps  12 weeks i think.
This current girl is a clone of Mom (Jaws Gear) *Crazy Horse*
i had planned to flower her under my 4 ft T-5 Ho. and she did for 4 weeks. and picture day she will be under the LED's for 3 weeks now.
I also grow hydro, and got 1 lb. cured from the Mom. But since i planned to flower the clone under T-5, i knew i had to thin the heck out of her...
Anyway, PPM does not have to be as high, as her sister that i am currently flowering out under my 1K hps.
My LEDs have fattened the bud WAY up compared to how she was under the T-5. and not near the stretch as when she was under the T-5.
i also know P Jennings, and went with his contact at Cidly co. In China. to my door in less then 10 days of order.
Price? Not bad..  But certainly not something a newbie would consider.
also reduced heat, very important in the summer months around here.
you also need to keep in mind they DO NOT have the penetration of HPS, so if you want the same yield, you would have to run more plants...
PJ says that while quantity suffers, Quality goes up! :hubba: 
And personally, I enjoy my hobby, and it is for head stash and to smoke with friends anyway, so i am not a cash cropper. and give me QUALITY over quantity any day!  
See ya Sunday! :ciao: 
My My


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## AluminumMonster

My my, im so glad you stopped by and posted this!  I was hoping you and Niteshft would swing by and share your LED experience with the good ppl here. MP, prepare yourself for your first finished led grow lol.


A.M.


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## Growdude

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> MP, prepare yourself for your first finished led grow lol.
> 
> A.M.


 
Its sounds like a half T5 half LED grow.


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## my my

Growdude said:
			
		

> Its sounds like a half T5 half LED grow.


 

AluminumMonster

Sorry Dude, but with attutudes like Growdude's I am not going to bother wasting my time to resize pics...
let um use HPS......


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## HipsterDoofus

I've been running a 2 x 2 closet grow 90W LED for vegging and 135W LED flowering. Easy, cheap, no heat issues, no fans and growing Northern Lights for low odor. Not a big yielding set up - keeps me going in between outdoor grows.


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## Growdude

my my said:
			
		

> AluminumMonster
> 
> Sorry Dude, but with attutudes like Growdude's I am not going to bother wasting my time to resize pics...
> let um use HPS......


 

Is it not?


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## AluminumMonster

@ growdude the strain my my is running is a 12 week strain... he started using the led's @ 4 weeks in.  8 weeks with the led's seems like a normal flower time to me. Ya can't be mad @ my my because he just purchased the lights... if ppl would give him a chance he might show ya the next flower session without the t5's.


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## Growdude

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> @ growdude the strain my my is running is a 12 week strain... he started using the led's @ 4 weeks in.  8 weeks with the led's seems like a normal flower time to me. Ya can't be mad @ my my because he just purchased the lights... if ppl would give him a chance he might show ya the next flower session without the t5's.


 

Its cool, just being clear.
Not mad at anyone or any attitude.


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## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> I was hoping you and Niteshft would swing by and share your LED experience with the good ppl here





			
				AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> Ya can't be mad @ my my because he just purchased the lights..



I got a question? How does a grower gain LED experience if they just purchased the LED?:confused2:



			
				AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> MP, prepare yourself for your first finished led grow lol.A.M.





			
				my my said:
			
		

> Sorry Dude, but with attutudes like Growdude's I am not going to bother wasting my time to resize pics...
> let um use HPS......



Looks like we are still going to have to wait.:shocked:


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## JustAnotherAntMarching

Some of you guys really are brutal with the damn hps LED debate...   

If ya dont have anything useful to add to the topic then why waste your time even replying...?   Any of you who think that LEDs just simply do not work are wearing blinders...

I am one who for certain as been watching these LED grows very closely and if i can see similar results from the few other grower I know who just sprung for these units from Cidly, I will be jumping on them as well...


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## ShOrTbUs

IinWhat are they up to now? 5watt diodes now?  My opinion on the subject atm is, there on the right track. Led's duplicate natural sunlight better then hps ever will. There only downfall aside from price is penetrating power. I have faith they will get there eventually. When they offer 10 or 20 watt diodes I believe led's will Prolly surpass hps as an overall better product. But NOT if they always charge an ARM and a leg.


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## AluminumMonster

pcduck said:
			
		

> I got a question? How does a grower gain LED experience if they just purchased the LED?:confused2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we are still going to have to wait.:shocked:


 @ PC Duck you gain experience by using the damn lights, I never said he was an experienced LED grower. You folks are obviously so closed minded about LED's that you wont even give someone a chance.  I can't believe this is the site I started at, any time someone has something that you ppl don't know about you freak out. Its like trying to tell the pope that science has proved the theory of evolution. 

@ JAAM you da man bro. I know you've been using led's for a while now... im glad someone around here still has an open mind.


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## HipsterDoofus

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> Its like trying to tell the pope that science has proved the theory of evolution.



Not a good analogy because the pope actually has accepted evolution.


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## AluminumMonster

My bad, how's this?? It like trying to tell the pope that his priests aren't allowed to molest little kids anymore.


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## pcduck

AM  we have given them a chance and it seems that whenever they cannot produce what these experience growers say or what some other LED grower says, they disappear or do not finish their journal. If these LED growers want to open our minds "I say Put up or shut up". and so far I have not seen a grow journal or in person a grow that stacks up against a hps grow. We also have not closed our minds we listen and have been listening for 10 years and nothing has changed.


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## AluminumMonster

pcduck said:
			
		

> AM  we have given them a chance and it seems that whenever they cannot produce what these experience growers say or what some other LED grower says, they disappear or do not finish their journal. If these LED growers want to open our minds "I say Put up or shut up". and so far I have not seen a grow journal or in person a grow that stacks up against a hps grow. We also have not closed our minds we listen and have been listening for 10 years and nothing has changed.


Really? What chance? The second someone mentions leds the entire site decides they have something to say and its usually negative.  If ppl would not open their fat mouths and let a person post their grow you might see a finished led grow. But, ppl show up with their torches and pitchforks ready to disclaim what another is trying to share. My my was going to show you his results but ppl had to give him a hard time. Niteshft used to post here as well but im sure you wont see him here now. He's another that took the plunge and replaced all his hid's with led's. 

Pc duck, I know you've been to other mj sites... why don't ya go to cannazon/cannetics  and just look it up.... but ya wont will ya? Too comfortable here aren't ya? All ya need to do is frickin look around man.


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## pcduck

AM said:
			
		

> Pc duck, I know you've been to other mj sites... why don't ya go to cannazon/cannetics and just look it up.... but ya wont will ya? Too comfortable here aren't ya? All ya need to do is frickin look around man.



AM I have been there and still am Unless you know my browser history or been to all the grows I have seen, I guess you are just guessing on what I have researched to gain experience. I have seen finished LED grows in person from experience growers that I trust and their buds did not stack up against a hps. If it works for a few great and if their grows were so great, why don't they just laugh instead of running off pouting? Someday(and we have been saying this for 10 years) they may get there but until then I will keep using what works for most.

Funny thing is you always read that some low watt LED is the same as a 400/600/1000 watt hid in their advertizing, but you don't read advertizing from hid manufacturers saying their light puts out more then the sun.


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## AluminumMonster

Dude, you are a member at cannetics.... you really cant log in and check out the led grow logs??????? you logged in a month and a half ago... just go look is all im sayin. P jennings, MY MY, Niteshft all have LED grow logs going. i dont know your browser history but i do know when you were last online on these forums.


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## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> Dude, you are a member at cannetics.... you really cant log in and check out the led grow logs??????? you logged in a month and a half ago... just go look is all im sayin. P jennings, MY MY, Niteshft all have LED grow logs going. i dont know your browser history but i do know when you were last online on these forums.



Yeah so what your point.:confused2:

I believe p.jennings grow journal has been going on for longer then a month and1/2


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## AluminumMonster

So ya can't go look huh? What's the harm man... that's my point.


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## ShOrTbUs

first of all, your friend my my flew off the handle and blew up about 1 insignificant comment that someone made. decides he's changed his mind and isn't going to post his pictures. to make it even worse, you try to justify his childish actions by saying everyone on this site is close minded.


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## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> So ya can't go look huh? What's the harm man... that's my point.



And so.... who says I haven't....besides you? 

Will being an active member there make me an elite grower?


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## AluminumMonster

pcduck said:
			
		

> And so.... who says I haven't....besides you?
> 
> Will being an active member there make me an elite grower?


 
I have no idea where you got that from...elite grower???

So what im taking from this is.... you know the info is there, yet, you wont go look....i fail to see how thats a logical approach to anything, espescially growing. you being an active member has nothing to do with anything... i thought that since you replied to this thread you might actually be interested . It obvious you have no desire to learn something new, you are content where you are. theres nothing wrong with that. but then why even bother posting in this thread?

shortbus, i fail to see how that is flying off the handle...  and yes most of the members here are closed minded. truth hurts man.


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## Roddy

Seems to me, the best way to shut up the nay sayers would be to post up proof. If asking a question made one decide they wanted to throw a fit and storm off with his ball, it doesn't say much for that grower....

I'm neither for nor against LED and am simply observing....been in this viper's den before lol. I wonder though, those who have "seen grows in person" were they with the equipment (CIDLY, I think) as mentioned? Sounds like it may be improving....maybe someone will be able to post up some proof. I'm watching....


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## pcduck

They have been improving for the last 10 years. They just are not there yet. I have nothing against LED's they work great for veg. Every grow I have seen in person they have looked great to a certain height, it is just when they flip to flower they are lacking.


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## AluminumMonster

@ Roddy, i apreciate the open mindedness bud My My is a older fella who doesnt want to put up with ** is all. he is a good guy and a good grower.  Ive been pm'ing back and forth with him... trying to get him to post pics here. It is a lot more difficult to post pics here then most other mj sites and the negative outlook on led's here seems to kick off the ** very easily.


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## Roddy

pcduck said:
			
		

> They have been improving for the last 10 years. They just are not there yet. I have nothing against LED's they work great for veg. Every grow I have seen in person they have looked great to a certain height, it is just when they flip to flower they are lacking.



Yes, the height and penetration issue seems the thing holding them back, agreed!


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## Roddy

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> @ Roddy, i apreciate the open mindedness bud My My is a older fella who doesnt want to put up with ** is all. he is a good guy and a good grower.  Ive been pm'ing back and forth with him... trying to get him to post pics here. It is a lot more difficult to post pics here then most other mj sites and the negative outlook on led's here seems to kick off the ** very easily.



Old growers are merely trying to stop newbs from falling into a trap set by false claims from manufacturers, I give all credit here! The tech just doesn't seem to be there yet, but we're all watching for the breakthrough! 

I do hope My My can get past the negatives and share, would do all a good service...one way or the other!


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## Roddy

Old=experienced....no disrespect to any of our seasoned growers!


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## Growdude

Growdude said:
			
		

> Its sounds like a half T5 half LED grow.


 
Break out the torches and pitchforks!  

Really? this was all it took?


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## AluminumMonster

Dude, read the thread title.... its kinda obvious that you shouldnt mention leds on mp. This isnt the first person run off by ppl here, and my my started out on mp, go figure.


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## AluminumMonster

ya know, i didnt want it to come to this.. i hate asking for favors. Hamsterlewis, Nouvellechef, 4U2Smoke, Ruffy, Umbra, shoot, anyone who is a member at cannetics: could you please log in and look at the led grows and respond in this thread.... am i a liar or am i telling these people the truth?

I am asking some of MP's most respected members to reply here, i am tired of the pointless banter. If you arent willing to look else where then dont respond to this please.


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## pcduck

Growdude said:
			
		

> Break out the torches and pitchforks!
> 
> Really? this was all it took?



That the only thing I found until AM started defending his pouting friend.



> Dude, read the thread title.



WE have no control to what a member titles his threads, jeez Dude quit nitpicking and whining.


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## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> ya know, i didnt want it to come to this.. i hate asking for favors. Hamsterlewis, Nouvellechef, 4U2Smoke, Ruffy, Umbra, shoot, anyone who is a member at cannetics: could you please log in and look at the led grows and respond in this thread.... am i a liar or am i telling these people the truth?
> 
> I am asking some of MP's most respected members to reply here, i am tired of the pointless banter. If you arent willing to look else where then dont respond to this please.



_Your beef_ is here so why would anyone go there.:confused2:


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## my my

OK,, here ya go folks.
i was going to share pics and INFO... even tho this site is easy for the general public to see, including POLICE, and also EX spouses with venum in there blood....
Add to that i have to spend 30 minutes to resize pics to post here (what a pain in the Bum)..
But i was going to risk the things i just mentioned and do it anyway...
 and YES, AM is right.. 12 weeks...
you didnt see where i said the PENATRATION IS NOT THE SAME AS HPS SO YOU NEED TO RUN MORE PLANTS TO HAVE SAME WEIGHT AT HARVEST.
You also didnt read  where these make less heat, so that means, less A/C bill,,, the chiller doessnt have to work as hard either... and you do not have to have as much airflow as HPS.

AM is also right about this is where i started... (GOOGLE) got me here...
and google can get any law enforcement agency here also..
i like the security of the 2 sites i post on now...

he is also right about alot of closed minds...
i pitty those people, and would not suggest the
closed minded people do any world wide traveling...

do not get me wrong, I have might some very good people here...
JAAM... thank you for your open mindedness.....

AM told ya all where you can get info and G/J's to judge for yourself....


My My


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## AluminumMonster

if ya dont like what i got to say then dont read it. im pretty sure nobody is forcing you to.

youre right you dont have control over what another member titles a thread... and yet he still named it "dont mention led's" ... coincidence? i dont think so...


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## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> if ya dont like what i got to say then dont read it. im pretty sure nobody is forcing you to.
> 
> youre right you dont have control over what another member titles a thread... and yet he still named it "dont mention led's" ... coincidence? i dont think so...



Well you know the thread was going along real smooth until you started backing up your pouting friend, so I do not know what to tell you. 

Coincidence???Maybe??


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## AluminumMonster

pcduck said:
			
		

> I got a question? How does a grower gain LED experience if they just purchased the LED?:confused2:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looks like we are still going to have to wait.:shocked:


 
And here is when the smartazz remarks started....


----------



## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> And here is when the smartazz remarks started....



:rofl::rofl:

Asked a simple question and state a fact and this started all of it? :rofl:


----------



## dman1234

ok im logged into cannetics, what thread should i be looking at? am i gonna find a nice LED grow but find that there is 10,000 dollars in LED lights used? just curious.


----------



## AluminumMonster

Dman1234 anything recent by p jennings, mymy, or niteshft


----------



## my my

AM, now you know why i havent been here in such a long time...
you know the saying, you can lead a horse to water!  

By By.


----------



## dman1234

I've seen PJ's before its very very impressive, but expensive lights i believe, i will look at the others also.


----------



## AluminumMonster

@Dman I think he said he dropped just under 3g to replace 7-8 1k hps. Thats really not that bad imo.


----------



## tastyness

Not wanting to fan the flames, but I have noticed a tendency for LED growers to have an issue resizing pics and posting. When you can batch them and be done in less than 2 minutes it just seems like a false flag.

My impression is that anyone who shared a complete GJ and produced results similar to HID would be MVP for the month without a hitch!

Time for a :chillpill:


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

AM   your fighting a battle that cant be won here man...   Im not discouraging your posting but you can lead a horse to water but you just cant make him drink...    you stated your case and have seen the results for yourself...  who cares what anyone else thinks...?


----------



## pcduck

> you can lead a horse to water but you just cant make him drink...



Someone has to take the reins and nobody has. :confused2: They all have computer problems, can't upload pics or used another light to supplement,eta,eta.. 

The only case I seen stated here has been to go to another site and checkout someone else's grow. And that someone sure is interested in what forums I belong to and when I visited them.:confused2:


----------



## Roddy

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> if ya dont like what i got to say then dont read it. im pretty sure nobody is forcing you to.
> 
> youre right you dont have control over what another member titles a thread... *and yet he still named it "dont mention led's" ... coincidence? i dont think so...*




More like begging for attention.....imho 

I agree, it's so simple to resize pics here, that and the ex's and security....really? Why did you post at all if you were worried johnny law (or ex wives) is watching, I mean you (or a friend) all but painted a map of how to find your journals and pics?

$3000 for replacement of 7-8 HPS is a lot in my book, I can get 6 1k's with MH and HPS for around $800? Maybe a touch more, haven't priced lately, but...

Again, I am neutral, but if these things draw my questioning, you can bet it's closed the minds of anyone who wasn't. I'll not visit another site, I like it here and don't feel it worth my time to go searching...as duck said, look's like we'll still have to wait.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

pcduck said:
			
		

> Someone has to take the reins and nobody has. :confused2: They all have computer problems, can't upload pics or used another light to supplement,eta,eta..
> 
> The only case I seen stated here has been to go to another site and checkout someone else's grow. And that someone sure is interested in what forums I belong to and when I visited them.:confused2:


 
Like i said before "this is a battle that cannot be won here"...   just keep spouting the same thing over and over...


----------



## pcduck

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> Like i said before "this is a battle that cannot be won here"...   just keep spouting the same thing over and over...



 And they refuse to prove it wrong.


----------



## Roddy

If there's anything to it, I'd be chomping at the bits to prove my case, as was said, you'd be MVP AND would have the joy of shutting others up....and do the growing world a huge service. 

Wouldn't you, JAAM? Wouldn't anyone? After taking all that heat, I'd prove my case....


----------



## pcduck

:yeahthat:


----------



## Locked

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> AM   your fighting a battle that cant be won here man...   Im not discouraging your posting but you can lead a horse to water but you just cant make him drink...    you stated your case and have seen the results for yourself...  who cares what anyone else thinks...?




:yeahthat:

I think this is the best thing I have seen posted in this thread. Talking LED's is like talking Politics or Religion. Passionate subject. People getting burnt by these shady LED salesmen will make you very skeptical. No one wants to be taken for their hard earned cash and be made to look the fool. I have seen what PJ is doing with his LED grows and it's pretty impressive. It makes me hope that the technology is finally arriving like it has been promised by shady salesmen after shady salesmen. Part of the problem is there are too many vendors selling crap and trying to separate you from your money. I do believe their are vendors out there that have a good product that works well but still costs on the high end cash wise.  More cash then the unscrupulous vendors are selling theirs for and they are promising the same if not better results. All of this makes for a climate of disbelief at anything and everything LED related. You can't change everyone's mind via the internet. Just My Opinion.


----------



## nouvellechef

I think when one focuses the right attention to a grow, and has mastered all the techniques to achieve massive yields from x amount of sq ft. LED's could and prob would topple HID's. Only in terms of dollars saved per kilowatt hour and maybe bulb life, etc. Depending on where you live, like here in WA, cooling with AC or moving air with fans is a minimal charge as its just only needed for 10% of the year, if at all. With that said, you can only achieve record yields vs killowatts used by doing SOG. As PJ stated over at Cannetics. This in turn brings other problems. You need legions of plants to run single cola plants filling a space. Even with no veg time, you will be over 99 plants in a blink, very dangerous territory.

But I can also do SOG with 100's of plants, no veg time, with HID's also. Does it makeup in dollars spent on killowatts, with LED's vs HID's, well yes. But that dollar amount spent takes quite along time to make that margain up. 

Example. I spent $44,387 dollars to build the new restaurant. All that cost rolls into a opening cost, not a monthly P&L for my food costs. Will that 44k be made up over time, yes. Same goes with this argument. Its all relevant.

Yes over time, the LED's will topple the costs of running HID's. Your off the map for power usage, but still have 100's of plants because you must run a SOG to maximize the light.

I remember before the crash there was a thread with the EffinG asking me for a breakdown of my cannabis cost(overhead). I listed everything out, plain and simple. I explained you only count what your operating costs are, not your opening costs(set-up) as those are not the same. At the end of the day I was paying about, $5.50 per oz, net cost.

At $5.50, trying to lower that using LED's becomes just a fun game of how low can you go. I mean $5, is darn close to bottom line for top shelf. No?


----------



## dman1234

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> I think when one focuses the right attention to a grow, and has mastered all the techniques to achieve massive yields from x amount of sq ft. LED's could and prob would topple HID's. Only in terms of dollars saved per kilowatt hour and maybe bulb life, etc. Depending on where you live, like here in WA, cooling with AC or moving air with fans is a minimal charge as its just only needed for 10% of the year, if at all. With that said, you can only achieve record yields vs killowatts used by doing SOG. As PJ stated over at Cannetics. This in turn brings other problems. You need legions of plants to run single cola plants filling a space. Even with no veg time, you will be over 99 plants in a blink, very dangerous territory.
> 
> But I can also do SOG with 100's of plants, no veg time, with HID's also. Does it makeup in dollars spent on killowatts, with LED's vs HID's, well yes. But that dollar amount spent takes quite along time to make that margain up.
> 
> Example. I spent $44,387 dollars to build the new restaurant. All that cost rolls into a opening cost, not a monthly P&L for my food costs. Will that 44k be made up over time, yes. Same goes with this argument. Its all relevant.
> 
> Yes over time, the LED's will topple the costs of running HID's. Your off the map for power usage, but still have 100's of plants because you must run a SOG to maximize the light.
> 
> I remember before the crash there was a thread with the EffinG asking me for a breakdown of my cannabis cost(overhead). I listed everything out, plain and simple. I explained you only count what your operating costs are, not your opening costs(set-up) as those are not the same. At the end of the day I was paying about, $5.50 per oz, net cost.
> 
> At $5.50, trying to lower that using LED's becomes just a fun game of how low can you go. I mean $5, is darn close to bottom line for top shelf. No?



That's a great post, doesn't bash either side, yet it helps me, LEDs are our future, but i will ride out my investment now and rethink in 3-5 years. jmo


----------



## AluminumMonster

@ JAAM, Nouvellechef, Hamster Lewis, thank you for the well spoken educated responses.  As I said earlier in the thread, this isn't for new growers. But, yes, it can and has been done now in a well documented fashion. It isn't for everybody, but for those who might like to learn about it the info should be there.


----------



## gourmet

Nouvelle I have never thought to run a cost benefit analysis of my own personal grow.  I'll have to try it.  Thanks for the input.


----------



## Roddy

dman1234 said:
			
		

> That's a great post, doesn't bash either side, yet it helps me, LEDs are our future, but i will ride out my investment now and rethink in 3-5 years. jmo




:yeahthat: And maybe in that time, the tech will vastly improve!


----------



## my my

I Am NOT here to try to sell any lights... ONLY to SHARE my 1ST time trying a proven LED Affordable Light option!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





here is clone of #2 @ 47 days.
took her mom to 12 weeks. so that was the game plan for this girl also...
She flowered under a 8 bulb 4 ft T-5 for the first 4 weeks, and only 19 days under the LED's now. the LED'S imo is blowing the heck out of the T-5 lighting.... 
Should be 5 Weeks to go


----------



## nvthis

Roddy said:
			
		

> $3000 for replacement of 7-8 HPS is a lot in my book, I can get 6 1k's with MH and HPS for around $800


 
Where the hell do you shop, bro?


----------



## Melvan

I think one thing that should be mentioned about PJs LED grow, which is awesome btw, is that he designed the lights for his area himself, the manufacturer built the lights to his specs. These aren't just LEDs off a shelf in some grow shop.


----------



## ShOrTbUs

sexy colors


----------



## ston-loc

Melvan2 said:
			
		

> I think one thing that should be mentioned about PJs LED grow, which is awesome btw, is that he designed the lights for his area himself, the manufacturer built the lights to his specs. These aren't just LEDs off a shelf in some grow shop.


Spin comment,,,, so what's the price tag for that? I'm an OD grower, reading as much as possible before jumping into indoor. Also an electrician. Nothing to add on LED's for growing, but for general lighting the technology is still behind. Has definitely improved over te last couple years, but that experience, along with what I've read, they aren't there yet for grow lights. And also, the quality LED lighting, is pricey! In general for quality! With what I work with. Unless your investment is to grow for 60 years, it just doesn't seem like a cost effective, for what you get out o it, option right now.


----------



## Melvan

I believe it was around 3k to cover his entire lab. And when I say lab, I mean lab. Not a tent in closet. That was just the flowering lights. He'd been vegging under LEDs for more than a year before switching over the flower room.

Only a few names here now that know me, and you don't know me at all. But those who do can verify I'm telling the truth when I say I personally know that he has maintained the same harvest weights with a massive reduction in power use. As well as having sturdier plants with denser flowers. 

The initial investment in PROPER led lighting isn't something most can afford right now. But the question of this thread is, "do they work" And the answer is yes.


----------



## P Jammers

Sorry wrong thread.


----------



## P Jammers

Nothing to see here.


----------



## pcduck

I don' think anyone said they would not work.

I think it as when Edison and Westinghouse/Tesla was arguing the merits of DC and AC electric. They both get the job done but one was a whole lot more labor intensive. I guess there is some all DC houses but most everybody went with AC.


----------



## nouvellechef

If someone can. I would like to see a breakdown of cost associated in a P&L format. Like so, with these costs in mind, just flowering only as I would assume the cost are pretty much mirrored.

HID- 60 day flower, .04 per kilowatt, 1000g yield

1k Mag ballast-$175
Hood-$175
1k Bulb-$35

LED- 60 day flower, .04 kilowatt, 1000g yield

Light-$?

Just curious if all factors remain constant, how long will it take to makeup for initial cost?


----------



## AluminumMonster

PJ, thank you for stopping by and sharing with us! I was hoping you could also share some of the technical info with the good people here...ie par, lens angles, uv lighting and so on. 

Thank you again for taking the time to post this


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

pcduck said:
			
		

> I don' think anyone said they would not work.


 
   you said like 17 times that they dont work....??  basically any thread here at MP that even mentions LEDs... you and many others...  whatchu smokin duck?   

Finally you get the info here for ya first hand you just blow it off...   W O W


----------



## my my

A.M.
please keep in mind that the angles, colors etc, are indeed PJ's research, not Cidly's and unless someone is really interested in stepping into these. that Info will most likley remains PJ's secret! 
I am sure, Like PJ did for me. if they are really interested PJ can put them into contact with his Cidly connection....  
Again, this was not to try to sell lights, PJ got no kickback from my purchase.. he was helping me out to produce better headstash for myself and save on my wallet.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

NC   your costs are def flawed bc power is no where near .04kw in most places...   Its like .12 a kw here and the delivery cost is more then the power which makes its like .25Kw here...    And you run $35 bulbs? since when??


----------



## pcduck

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> you said like 17 times that they dont work....??  basically any thread here at MP that even mentions LEDs... you and many others...  whatchu smokin duck?
> 
> Finally you get the info here for ya first hand you just blow it off...   W O W



What are you smoking??

Take the time and go back and read my posts:rofl:


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

you siad they dont work bc youve never seen the proof....?   now theres pics and someone with alot of documentation and your back peddling...   I wont go back and read your posts bc most of them have contrubuted nothing positive to the topic or thread...


----------



## Locked

Thanks for popping in PJ....I will definitely pick your brain if and when the time comes for me to give LED's a try. People need to see that there are LED set ups out there working and just how far the technology has come.


----------



## AluminumMonster

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> NC   your costs are def flawed bc power is no where near .04kw in most places...   Its like .12 a kw here and the delivery cost is more then the power which makes its like .25Kw here...    And you run $35 bulbs? since when??




:yeahthat: I just looked at my bill... .11 per kw here.


----------



## AluminumMonster

pcduck said:
			
		

> AM  we have given them a chance and it seems that whenever they cannot produce what these experience growers say or what some other LED grower says, they disappear or do not finish their journal. If these LED growers want to open our minds "I say Put up or shut up". and so far I have not seen a grow journal or in person a grow that stacks up against a hps grow. We also have not closed our minds we listen and have been listening for 10 years and nothing has changed.




So you put up or shut up huh??  Well duck I think its time to shut up and read man.


----------



## pcduck

I am not back pedaling like I said go back and reread my posts.:doh:

But lets see for these successful grow you keep bring up.
The grower had to create his own light, spend astronomical money, very labor intensive and just to achieve what we are to believe is the same has a hid?
What would his output be if he did the same labor under a hid?

Like I said you can have DC electric in your home or you can have AC what would you choose? Both concepts work great, but what one did the majority of people choose?


----------



## AluminumMonster

Once again, you clearly have no interest, so why even bother posting in here?


----------



## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> So you put up or shut up huh??  Well duck I think its time to shut up and read man.



For just one grow:rofl: Even scientific experiments need a independent lab to duplicate the results of the experiment before they even print their papers.

You guys are funny

AM got a question for you do you use LEDS?


----------



## dman1234

power depends on where you live, I pay .06/ kw


----------



## AluminumMonster

He didn't create the light... he picked his bulb colors and lens angles which anyone can do. $1900 is astronomical? I've spent well over 5k on my rooms just to run hids. How is this labor intensive? No ducting, less worry over r/h, less feeding, less worry about temps ya don't have to change out bulbs.. come on man you're not makin sense here.


----------



## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> Once again, you clearly have no interest, so why even bother posting in here?



Well if this was your thread I would not be posting but I believe the OP asked what was a better light?



> Why is it that theres big arguments over CFL's and HID's but not a mention of LED lighting.



And I gave him my opinion. If you don't like it go make your own thread on the merits of LEDS and I won't post in it. I will just sit back and laugh and do my :bong1: of hps buds:rofl:


----------



## AluminumMonster

Nope but I know ppl who do...lol. c'mon man ya can't talk me out of this, so ya might as well give up now


----------



## pcduck

> come on man you're not makin sense here.



Did he not have to do major LST?

So you have no personal experience with leds?


----------



## AluminumMonster

That's why I asked the ppl with the experience to stop on by

Your pointless banter is well... pointless. It has been done the proof will be posted and it can be done by anyone with half a brain.  End of story


----------



## pcduck

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> That's why I asked the ppl with the experience to stop on by
> 
> Your pointless banter is well... pointless. It has been done the proof will be posted and it can be done by anyone with half a brain.  End of story



I don't see you doing it:rofl:


----------



## AluminumMonster

Not yet... when ya have a wife ya kinda have to discuss a $1900 purchase...


----------



## AluminumMonster

pcduck said:
			
		

> And they refuse to prove it wrong.




And if ya would give PJ and MyMy  a chance they will prove it wrong...


----------



## Locked

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> Not yet... when ya have a wife ya kinda have to discuss a $1900 purchase...




Lol...I hear ya on that. Gotta put that kind of purchase in front of the review board in my house as well. 

I think everyone needs to smoke a bowl and relax. No reason for this to get personal. I for one am glad PJ came by and can shed some light on the current state of LED technology. He makes good points about taking things like not having to replace bulbs which brings down overall cost. If I had the cash I would be giving these a shot for sure. Jmo


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

Guys it was $1900 to replace 8 - 1000whps....  thats gotta be like 200sq feet...   8 1000s gotta cost $1500+....   $400 is not a 
HUGE difference IMO...

Hammy  talk to PJ it would prob be $300 for an LED unit for your 4x4...


----------



## Locked

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> Guys it was $1900 to replace 8 - 1000whps....  thats gotta be like 200sq feet...   8 1000s gotta cost $1500+....   $400 is not a
> HUGE difference IMO...
> 
> Hammy  talk to PJ it would prob be $300 for an LED unit for your 4x4...




I will talk with PJ for sure. Thanks.


----------



## nouvellechef

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> NC   your costs are def flawed bc power is no where near .04kw in most places...   Its like .12 a kw here and the delivery cost is more then the power which makes its like .25Kw here...    And you run $35 bulbs? since when??



In WA. We have the cheapest kilowatt rate anywhere. Average is .08 a kilowatt. Any land that is zoned "AG", agricultural, the max rate by law cannot exceed .04 a kilowatt.

I have always paid $35 per 1k. I have always bought by case of 12.

You should know me better than that son. I don't post info, I am not 100% sure on


----------



## AluminumMonster

8- 1k plus hoods bulbs and hangers would run me almost $2500 here.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

PJ and my my, thanks for taking the time to post and put up pics.

PJ, I have some questions, I hope you will be around later.  However, I have a very important engagement :giggle: --a wake-and-bake morning watching an early college football game at friends' house.


----------



## Locked

Get ya bake on THG....and enjoy the game.


----------



## AluminumMonster

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Get ya bake on THG....and enjoy the game.


:yeahthat:


----------



## nouvellechef

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> 8- 1k plus hoods bulbs and hangers would run me almost $2500 here.



So how much for LED's to fill cover a 20x20 space? Same as what 8, 1k's would cover.


----------



## my my

THC, certainly my pleasure to share..
I didn't go to a trade show, and just decide to buy LED's...  Nope.
I watched and followed a thread PJ made with his LAB GROWS.... 
Yes, this is my 1st LED grow. and i also know there is a learning curve... I'm fine with that..
I do Have a 4 X 4 closet i grow in.. so No i am not a cash cropper..
and PJ did the research for my little set up as well...
The current room is my Veg room, not the flower room PJ and I discussed the lighting options for..
in the summer months here, i have to run my 600 HPS do to heat,, in winter i run the 1K light in the little 4 X 4 room..
these 5 LED lights cost me 850.00 (that includes shipping )
I have only been running 1 plant in my 4 X 4 flower room,  as my style was rdwc and grow one tree in flower... 
i will have to change my style to produce the same amount of bud tho.. so i still have a large learning curve to go...
however these 5 LED's are a bit over a 1K HPS. so come summer time i wont have to change to the 600 because of heat issues like i do know,, more good news imo...
Again, i am not trying to sell LED lighting, just sharing with growers that have thought about them is all.....


----------



## AluminumMonster

@Nouvellechef I think PJ should be the one to answer that... so he can give you an accurate number bud.


----------



## P Jammers

Wow, got some feathers stirred for sure huh but mostly on a Duck, go figure.

Didn't figure there would be this much to read this AM. I don't get all the arguing though. You guys wanted to see someone with experience show some documented stuff to make you believers, so here I am. 

Had a friend of a friend contact me and ask me to go straighten out some mis guided ideas, had no idea I'd walk in to the crossfire.

If we can get away from that, and you guys want to see some stuff I am happy to educate, but if it's going to be this back and forth crap, I am not interested. It's why I walked from here 2 years ago, and TBH I just don't need it.

NC, there are no changes when it comes to wattage with the lights I am using. If you used 1000 watts in HID, its the same wattage for LED's. The difference is about Half the cost to run them. If you decide you want to really pursue the LED's hit me at the other spot and I'll get you an exact quote. We have to get in to plant numbers, spacing and whatnot to nail down which unit we use.



			
				pcduck said:
			
		

> Did he not have to do major LST?


Not at all, or should I say not on any plants that I did not have to for HPS. Some strains can hold their weight, some can't. No changes there. I will say that the days of a plant stretching are GONE. Only plants I have had to date stretch have been SSH and Pennywize. Supercropping - a thing of the past.



			
				JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> Guys it was $1900 to replace 8 - 1000whps....  thats gotta be like 200sq feet...   8 1000s gotta cost $1500+....   $400 is not a
> HUGE difference IMO...
> 
> Hammy  talk to PJ it would prob be $300 for an LED unit for your 4x4...


 Actually it was 1900 to purchase 6 Apollo 10's which replaced 2 1000W HPS setups. I did have other lights on that order, so it was a bbit more, but I broke it down on a price delivered to my door.

You are actualy pretty close on what it would take to run a 4x4 tent though. Maybe a lil more or less give or take. You know where to get at my Hammy.




			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> PJ and my my, thanks for taking the time to post and put up pics.
> 
> PJ, I have some questions, I hope you will be around later.  However, I have a very important engagement :giggle: --a wake-and-bake morning watching an early college football game at friends' house.



TBH I had not been here in a while, but since you ask so kindly I'll be back with some answers for ya.

Last comment in here for now just to clear things up a lil. While I may have designed my LED specs, the lights were already designed. I wanted to go one step further and chase an idea I had about spectrum's so I decided to give my idea a run. It works, and works well.

I actually recently designed a new LED spec for vegging because I wanted to see if I could get even more nodes before I hit the 10 or so inches before I flip, and that has worked wonderfully as well.


----------



## Rosebud

I just read this whole thread. 

AM, I think there is a lot of open minded people here. I know nothing about LED's but I am very interested in anything that will reduce heat significantly in my flower room. So thank you.

PJ, so nice to see you again. Your plant looks very nice.

Glad you all took time out for us stubborn old growers here to educate.

I thought MyMy was a lady. Sorry Mymy... I don't know what the trouble you have with posting pic's are, if that was you. Maybe we can help.

Open mindedly yours.
rose


----------



## Locked

Thanks PJ for taking the time and for sharing your experience with us. I will hit you up via pm at the other place. Might be looking to do something light wise early next year. Been busy trying to get my tents up and running but that should calm down a bit now and I will have some free time.


----------



## Growdude

P Jammers said:
			
		

> NC, there are no changes when it comes to wattage with the lights I am using. If you used 1000 watts in HID, its the same wattage for LED's. The difference is about Half the cost to run them.


 
PJ can you explain this further? are the LED's and HID's both drawing 1000 watts?

Thanks GD


----------



## P Jammers

Growdude said:
			
		

> PJ can you explain this further? are the LED's and HID's both drawing 1000 watts?
> 
> Thanks GD


Drawing no, producing yes in short. A quick Google search will explain how that works.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

I have a question. Do LED's have the same light penetration strength as HPS?


----------



## nouvellechef

I believe every word of it. It just scares me cause I know, running a legion of single cola plants with those LED's is the way to go. Just like running a HID, single cola SOG, but you save on killowatt hours and bulb replacement. But I know going over 99 plants can happen real quick, thats the part that scares me. While I might save some money over the years, I just sleep better only having a few she beasts under some HID's. 

But keep on doing!


----------



## my my

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> I have a question. Do LED's have the same light penetration strength as HPS?


 
No


----------



## P Jammers

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> I have a question. Do LED's have the same light penetration strength as HPS?



Well here is a loaded question, yes?

The first thing you need to understand is how to grow with LED's. It is not the same as growing with HPS.

A better question would be and what it boils down to is, can you get the same yield or better with LED's, and can the flavor and quality be improved.

The answer to that question is with out a doubt, yes....Easily.


----------



## P Jammers

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> I believe every word of it. It just scares me cause I know, running a legion of single cola plants with those LED's is the way to go. Just like running a HID, single cola SOG, but you save on killowatt hours and bulb replacement. But I know going over 99 plants can happen real quick, thats the part that scares me. While I might save some money over the years, I just sleep better only having a few she beasts under some HID's.
> 
> But keep on doing!


Who's growing single cola plants with these?

Whatcha wanna see bro?

How bout a sativa that went 5 feet 4 zips? I'm sure it could have done a lot better had I really worked her in veg, but I flipped it at 3 weeks from seed.


----------



## Locked

Looks like I know where some of my tax return cash is going....


----------



## WeedHopper

Flavor improved by LEDS??


----------



## P Jammers

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> Flavor improved by LEDS??


Search Wageningen University, part of Wageningen UR

Not sure if that was a serious question with the eye popping guy, but figured I'd go ahead and show you the way to some scientific studies, you know just to CYA.

Where ya at Duck? 

Moon walking off in to the sunset r ya?


----------



## pcduck

PJammers said:
			
		

> Where ya at Duck?



Sitting here doing :bong1: of my hps buds and laughing, while you try to convince people how it takes 99 plants to do what a hps can do with 10 plants, but it is better?

You guys are giving All the reason why it is not better then a hps.

Where do you think I am at?  I am sitting here laughing hard:rofl:

So hurry on back to your lab so that you can LST your 99 plants, while I sit back and enjoy my hps buds:bong:

But gee these wonder lights make it not stretch and taste better.:rofl:

You guys are funny:rofl::rofl:

I have watched to many LED wannabes come and go to get my feathers ruffled p.jammers :aok:


----------



## Growdude

P Jammers said:
			
		

> :hubba:
> 
> 
> The LED's I now have is 6 fixtures, which amounts to 2184 watts, so while I increased wattage a lil,


 
Im still confused on what the actual wattage used is. This makes it sound as if you increased your wattge.

Can you provide a link to what light or lights I could use to replace my 1000 watt HPS?


----------



## pcduck

pjammers said:
			
		

> Wow, got some feathers stirred for sure huh but mostly on a Duck, go figure.



Wow don't credit where it is not do, p.jammers:rofl:
You were not even contributing to the thread when AM was irked about me not running over to cannetics like a trained dog to look at some led grows. Read the thread:doh:

Just makes me laugh when people comment on here  that haven't read the thread thoroughly.:laugh:


----------



## niteshft

I've been doing a grow with LEDs I purchased from the place PJ was talking about and they are doing great!! I purchased 6-Apolo 6's to replace my 1000w HSP @ $179 ea and my grow hasn't skipped a beat.

 The Jack Herrer I just harvested is probably the strongest smelling I've grown to date and it's of the same cut. It's still curing so I have no smoke report for it yet. The buds are just as firm as with the HPS showing they are getting the light that is needed. It can't be stressed enough that these lights can't be placed close to the plants like has traditionally been done with past attempts with LEDs. These things are intence and have to be maintained at least 18 inches from the tops of the plants. I should mention that I'm using LEDs with 120 deg lenses on them that spread out the light rather than focus straight down. I was going to go with 60 deg lenses but PJ suggested the 120 because he new I like to grow wide bushes and it was a good call.

I'm going to have to work on changing my grow methods to SOG as I believe these lights will really shine with that method. (No pun intended) LOL

The second pic was during the install and the kooltube is no longer there.


----------



## AluminumMonster

Very nice buds Niteshft. Thank you for takin the time to post some of your results!


----------



## Rosebud

Yes those look very nice Niteshft.


----------



## P Jammers

pcduck said:
			
		

> Sitting here doing :bong1: of my hps buds and laughing, while you try to convince people how it takes 99 plants to do what a hps can do with 10 plants, but it is better?
> 
> You guys are giving All the reason why it is not better then a hps.
> 
> Where do you think I am at?  I am sitting here laughing hard:rofl:
> 
> So hurry on back to your lab so that you can LST your 99 plants, while I sit back and enjoy my hps buds:bong:
> 
> But gee these wonder lights make it not stretch and taste better.:rofl:
> 
> You guys are funny:rofl::rofl:
> 
> I have watched to many LED wannabes come and go to get my feathers ruffled p.jammers :aok:



Tell you what, put up a thread. We'll do a similar strain, and update week by week in a journal. Not only will I do it faster I'll out yield you and we'll show the little world here just how clueless you really are. We flip at the same time.

That goes for anyone here who wants to do a comparison and show results out in the open.

Keep on Quackin on duck. Put up, or Shut u time. 

And just for the record, I do not run anywhere near 99 plants nor do I LST any strain that would not need it under any lights.

You're going off some Mis-Quoting that Novellchef made on this site. I have never said anyone would need to grow single cola plants, and have never posted a pic of one ever. 

I have close to 30 strains I have completed under LED's all completely documented, and your going to sit up here and talk this jive.

Please, you're an absolute disgrace to this community, and an extremely rude person with a very creative imagination. Nothing more, nothing less.

If you have nothing further to add, get that thread going and lets do this.

Are are you really just a chicken? :hubba: 

Cluck Cluck
 

For others who are more interested in facts, this is a very low yielding Purple Diesel plant that I did under LED's anyway. It's actually done better under LED's over HPS and quite outstanding. I am sure NVthis can comment if anyone has a dispute about this particular pheno.


----------



## nouvellechef

Yes. I didn't mean PJ was growing 99. What I meant and let's be honest, huge majority of growers are doing in full or part time for income. Whether it be LED or HID, nobody will ever out yield a SOG with legions of plants in terms of crops per year. And with either light, having a room full in bloom(no veg), mothers and rooting clones getting ready, 99 little ladies will creep up in no time.

That's all I meant.

I think it's fantastic what the future holds. 5 years ago, I prob would switch it up. But at $5 a oz net cost to me, lowering that, is just not on my radar


----------



## NorCalHal

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> I believe every word of it. It just scares me cause I know, running a legion of single cola plants with those LED's is the way to go. Just like running a HID, single cola SOG, but you save on killowatt hours and bulb replacement. But I know going over 99 plants can happen real quick, thats the part that scares me. While I might save some money over the years, I just sleep better only having a few she beasts under some HID's.
> 
> But keep on doing!


 
Straight up.


----------



## AluminumMonster

I can't argue with that Nouvellechef... im using all hid, and T5's and my plant count if ya include cuts is well in to the 80's already... and @ $5 an oz I don't think I would change anything either lol.

However, since I can keep my plant count the same, I still want to make the change


----------



## Locked

Nice plants niteshft, and PJ that P Diesel looks like candy bro.   Let's not let the facts get muddled up with LED hating. Peeps are constantly asking for documentation and pics of successful LED grows and when we get some we resort to name calling and distorting things? Come on we are a better community then that. PJ is not spamming the site or plugging a company...he is sharing his results and clearing up some obvious misconceptions with today's latest LED technology. Jmo


----------



## gourmet

I'de love to see a comparison grow.


----------



## Rosebud

Me too.


----------



## nvthis

P Jammers said:
			
		

> For others who are more interested in facts, this is a very low yielding Purple Diesel plant that I did under LED's anyway. It's actually done better under LED's over HPS and quite outstanding. I am sure NVthis can comment if anyone has a dispute about this particular pheno.


 
Man, I can't wait to go to LED's. Honestly, I have been waiting for growers like you to pave the way for years. To figure these damn things out and make them work up to snuff. Ya'll are pioneers in my book. Yup, can't wait... No more heat = longer indoor grow season. No more HID = less fear of electrical fire hazard. That last one, to me, is WAY MORE meaningful than any power savings I might realize.

PJ, you killed it with that Purp D, bro. That's just insane. 

However..  In all fairness.... And not to add fuel here, but just because he is a topshelf grower himself, the best Purp D I have seen yet is Hammy's. For the size pot he uses, it was truly mind boggling.. Of course, that in no way takes from what you have accomplished here. And, frankly, I think in time (and perfecting the LED craft) we may see even that example eclipsed. Keep up the good work. Everybody is watching now 

Oh, and you guys be easy on my bro PC.. He's a good mate and, just like most of us, he has yet to be subjected to a lot of positivity concerning LED's over the years, so his scepticism is understandable, relatable and, in the end, forgivable. The Duck has a "_prove it first and show me, or it ain't real_" mentality, just like me, just like a lot of us. Give him time. If LED's are truly the way, he'll come around


----------



## Locked

Man I miss that Purple D...was some tasty Dank for sure. Well said Nv, and thanks for the kind words. I am going to have to try these out first hand after the New Year. Finding a source to get the newest LED Technology and not getting taken for Ebay style junk instead is something that has me excited. I bet many of us would give them a try as long as we knew we were getting "good" lights and not that cheap knock off crap that is floating all over the net. jmo


----------



## pcduck

I have nothing to prove p.jammers. Everybody knows that hps works:aok:

Tell you what you do, you do a grow with 1 plant under a led and one under a hps. Same strain, same techniques and we will see what the outcome is, because then we would not have to worry about different environments or different nutes or anything else.  And I will believe your results just like I would anybody else's that I don't know from Adam with only 18 posts.:aok:

Just be sure to hide the hps in your led grow pics:aok:


----------



## nvthis

nvthis said:
			
		

> he'll come around


 
Or, maybe not..

LMAO

Eh, I still love ya bro..


----------



## nvthis

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Man I miss that Purple D...was some tasty Dank for sure. Well said Nv, and thanks for the kind words. I am going to have to try these out first hand after the New Year. Finding a source to get the newest LED Technology and not getting taken for Ebay style junk instead is something that has me excited. I bet many of us would give them a try as long as we knew we were getting "good" lights and not that cheap knock off crap that is floating all over the net. jmo


 
I think PJ's efforts are timely and hugely promising. He's one smart cookie, for sure. It might be a good move. 

As for me, I am getting more and more comfortable with the idea myself. I have a large bank of LED's now, but I haven't used them and don't know that they are what I want. Or, at least, by themselves anyway. Hmm.. I'll have to hit up PJ about it and see what he thinks.. 

That being said, I don't want to understate the importance of this thread. Keep it up, guys..



			
				mymy said:
			
		

> PJ,
> I think he is Chicken after all...
> Becouse we all know D. Duck always goes after a challange!



All you guys need to just give it a break already. This proves nothing, nor is it at all helpful. That includes you, PC. C'mon, guys, ya'll are better than this. There's nothing to be gained here by deviating from the learning process... Talking **** never got anyone anywhere. You all know me, and that COMES FROM EXPERIENCE!!


----------



## my my

well said nvthis,
imo the problem is the Duck is not
OPEN MINDED GROWER:holysheep: 

non  of us said Rush right out and buy.. 
Just sharing is all...
I myself had to watch a few grows by PJ before i decided to look into it in more deepth..
BUT the big difference i sat in the background with my Yap shut and watched.. 
I certainly didn't heckle him....
on that note. i will just put up some pics of my girl on a weekly basis untill she finishes.   
My My


----------



## P Jammers

First thank you for the kind words guys. I really wish it were true Hammy, but I get the same vibe from this place it had 2 years ago



			
				pcduck said:
			
		

> I have nothing to prove p.jammers. Everybody knows that hps works:aok:
> 
> Tell you what you do, you do a grow with 1 plant under a led and one under a hps. Same strain, same techniques and we will see what the outcome is, because then we would not have to worry about different environments or different nutes or anything else.  And I will believe your results just like I would anybody else's that I don't know from Adam with only 18 posts.:aok:
> 
> Just be sure to hide the hps in your led grow pics:aok:



You were asked in a kind way to check out my threads at another board you are a member of. Perhaps the close to 3000 posts there would be helpful, no? I guess the close to 800 posts I had here 2 years ago don't count now either right?

I have already run the side by sides, with both HPS vs LED all things the same which is also documented with pictures. 



			
				nouvellechef said:
			
		

> Yes. I didn't mean PJ was growing 99. What I meant and let's be honest, huge majority of growers are doing in full or part time for income. Whether it be LED or HID, nobody will ever out yield a SOG with legions of plants in terms of crops per year. And with either light, having a room full in bloom(no veg), mothers and rooting clones getting ready, 99 little ladies will creep up in no time.
> 
> That's all I meant.


And you're right, a large portion do however if you go back to my original post in this thread and read the last line you will see I said they are not for everybody.  

What about the guy who runs a small tent who wants to grow a few plants? Does that thinking make any sense then?

What about the commercial business that has no equipment currently and is ready to start up. No brainer right?

The thing I will disagree on is the over all yield. When I first set up I added more buckets to the system "thinking" I was going to lose some yield. I've since increased my yield and have not skipped a beat. 

Turns out, I was wrong, and I can yield the same, and even better on some strains, some a little less but even then I can veg a little longer and get things right on track.

Look, I came here only because people were making claims they did not produce results. I've shown that's not true.

I have nothing left to say or prove.

My peeps know where to hit me.

Peace


----------



## gourmet

Too bad. I was looking to watch a comparison grow or a side by side.


----------



## nvthis

my my said:
			
		

> well said nvthis,
> imo the problem is the Duck is not
> OPEN MINDED GROWER:holysheep:


 
Unfortunately, this couldn't be further from the truth. If you ignored PC, you wouldn't even know he's here. And his "mindedness", be it open, closed or otherwise, has absolutely no bearing on you, me or anyone else at the end of the day. **The problem** is reciprocating and perpetuating. Some one has to be man (or woman) enough to break the cycle because at that point, nobody (read, NOBODY) is the winner.  

And to prove it, PJ has now left the building. Too bad, we all lose..


----------



## Locked

nvthis said:
			
		

> **The problem** is reciprocating and perpetuating. Some one has to be man (or woman) enough to break the cycle because at that point, nobody (read, NOBODY) is the winner.
> 
> And to prove it, PJ has now left the building. Too bad..



Worst part is MP as a community is the real loser...there are not a lot of well documented LED grows out there let alone one that comes along with a grower willing to break down what he is doing, equipment he is using, specs etc. I understand some peeps don't really get along with others, but sometimes you have to put that crap on the back burner for the good of the whole community. That goes for both sides of the argument. Antagonizing comments don't help, they only add fuel to the fire. In this case said fire has burned this thread out of any more info from PJ. Thanks for popping in PJ, sorry it went down this road. I appreciate you coming by and at least giving me something to think about and ponder for next year.


----------



## Old_SSSC_Guy

Regardless whether LEDs work for growing I'm kinda surprised that no one has mentioned one of the better reasons for not considering them: because they are unnatural and simply do not replicate mother nature.

To me the goal of the indoor grower is to try to achieve parity with mother nature.  The aim is not to create a false environment - but rather to mimic a natural eco environment on a small scale which the planet offers plants as a matter of course.  Consistent temps within seasons, a finite light pattern, and the nutrients required for healthy growth.  In indoor gardening you to not create a false environment to make your plants happy - you try to duplicate/simulate the outdoor environment as closely as you can.  

However in the LED world you choose to falsify the light source(s) using visible color spectrums simply not available or common to nature.  I know of no where on the earthen planet where visible red light is consistent or common; or blue, or green or whatever.  Just as a healthy diet includes more than one single food source, balanced health for plants and the plant vigor we all seek comes from a subtle mix of light spectrum.  Not one primary spectrum which simply does not occur in nature. 

The only functional light source - at the moment - which approximates the balanced spectrum required for healthy growth is HID lighting.  We do not switch to red bulbs for flowering.  Why would we?

Why not try putting a red theater gel on your halide or HPS if red light is the sole key to success?  Maybe its because the plants will suffer from the un-natural light source you expect them to live under.  They may survive - but they will not be robust, and will offer weak results compared to other light sources. 

Just an opinion...


----------



## P Jammers

Not the building, just the thread guys.
:hubba:


----------



## gourmet

As long as there was going to be a journal comparison grow or like, I have an open mind on this.  However, if that is bailed on, then I grow suspicious.  Sorry, just my nature.


----------



## P Jammers

Old_SSSC_Guy said:
			
		

> Regardless whether LEDs work for growing I'm kinda surprised that no one has mentioned one of the better reasons for not considering them: because they are unnatural and simply do not replicate mother nature.
> 
> To me the goal of the indoor grower is to try to achieve parity with mother nature.  The aim is not to create a false environment - but rather to mimic a natural eco environment on a small scale which the planet offers plants as a matter of course.  Consistent temps within seasons, a finite light pattern, and the nutrients required for healthy growth.  In indoor gardening you to not create a false environment to make your plants happy - you try to duplicate/simulate the outdoor environment as closely as you can.
> 
> However in the LED world you choose to falsify the light source(s) using visible color spectrums simply not available or common to nature.  I know of no where on the earthen planet where visible red light is consistent or common; or blue, or green or whatever.  Just as a healthy diet includes more than one single food source, balanced health for plants and the plant vigor we all seek comes from a subtle mix of light spectrum.  Not one primary spectrum which simply does not occur in nature.
> 
> The only functional light source - at the moment - which approximates the balanced spectrum required for healthy growth is HID lighting.  We do not switch to red bulbs for flowering.  Why would we?
> 
> Why not try putting a red theater gel on your halide or HPS if red light is the sole key to success?  Maybe its because the plants will suffer from the un-natural light source you expect them to live under.  They may survive - but they will not be robust, and will offer weak results compared to other light sources.
> 
> Just an opinion...



Nice post with different perspective. The following is taken from a site I stay in tune with. Perhaps you'll find the info useful.


Scientists around the world have been studying issues related to how plants use light colors for photosynthesis for over 70 years. Now research into the effectiveness of photosynthesis in various light conditions has answered some of the most important questions. It has shown that plants efficiently adapt their leaves to the light colors present where they grow. In this way they use the available light as effectively as possible. The research also demonstrated how specific combinations of various light colors result in more photosynthesis than the sum of the individual light colors. This insight is relevant, among other things, for minimizing energy consumption in the lighting of horticultural greenhouses. Moreover, the scientists discovered that leaf pigments not directly involved in photosynthesis dissipate light. While these non-photosynthetic pigments do absorb light, they do not use it for photosynthesis. This discovery could lead to the development of plants that produce more food by reducing the amount of these non-photosynthetic pigments. This mainly applies to protected cultivation, such as in greenhouses, as at least some of the non-photosynthetic pigments have a protective function, for instance against too much UV light or insect damage. These factors are less relevant in indoor cultivation than in open fields. Scientists from Wageningen UR and research agency Plant Lighting of first author Sander Hogewoning are currently working on translating the new knowledge into applicable innovations. The research was supported by STW, NWO, Philips, Plant Dynamics BV, VU University Amsterdam, the Product Board for Horticulture, and the Dutch Ministry of Economic Affairs, Agriculture and Innovation.

So now ask yourself which light is going to be easier and more cost effective to produce the colors they find will work best to out perform the sun. 

These scientists are right on my heels I tell ya, right on my heels.


----------



## nvthis

Also.... Visible light in the em field occupies something like 3.5 X 10-9 divided by 10^19 of the entire spectrum. That's less than a millionth of one percent. In other words, if a light "looks" green or red or whatever, it wouldn't necessarliy have the weight of value we, as humans, perceive.

(hehe.. I just sounded pretty damn smart right there, didn't I? :huh: )


----------



## Locked

Good info PJ...I am not trying to mimic mother nature in my tents. If that was the case I would not veg 24-0. I am trying to improve on nature and trying to maximize the plants potential. The more we understand things the more we can improve upon them.


----------



## Roddy

nvthis said:
			
		

> Where the hell do you shop, bro?



Sorry, meant 3/around $800, sorry. Actually, 6 complete setups for $1300 +/-


hXXp://www.virtualsunhydroponics.com/Agricultural/products/VS1000WRMS-3.asp?rt=2


----------



## nvthis

Roddy said:
			
		

> Sorry, meant 3/around $800, sorry. Actually, 6 complete setups for $1300 +/-
> 
> 
> hXXp://www.virtualsunhydroponics.com/Agricultural/products/VS1000WRMS-3.asp?rt=2


 
Haha, yeah.. That one made me have to stop and think a minute


----------



## Roddy

Great info here, hope to see a side by......


----------



## Old_SSSC_Guy

Yeah bro, but after 70 years those agro light scientists don't seem to have come up with a whole lot of new or unique solutions.  Included in those 70 years NASA went wacko and spent millions on research of hydroponic horticulture and lighting in the 70's to the 90's. They use HIDs for their ground installations.  I like NASA. They make nice spaceships.  I want one.

:icon_smile: 





			
				P Jammers said:
			
		

> Nice post with different perspective. The following is taken from a site I stay in tune with. Perhaps you'll find the info useful.
> 
> Scientists around the world have been studying issues related to how plants use light colors for photosynthesis for over 70 years. [snip]...
> 
> So now ask yourself which light is going to be easier and more cost effective to produce the colors they find will work best to out perform the sun.
> 
> These scientists are right on my heels I tell ya, right on my heels.


----------



## pcduck

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Tell you what, put up a thread. We'll do a similar strain, and update week by week in a journal. Not only will I do it faster I'll out yield you and we'll show the little world here just how clueless you really are. We flip at the same time.
> 
> That goes for anyone here who wants to do a comparison and show results out in the open.
> 
> Keep on Quackin on duck. Put up, or Shut u time.
> 
> And just for the record, I do not run anywhere near 99 plants nor do I LST any strain that would not need it under any lights.
> 
> You're going off some Mis-Quoting that Novellchef made on this site. I have never said anyone would need to grow single cola plants, and have never posted a pic of one ever.
> 
> I have close to 30 strains I have completed under LED's all completely documented, and your going to sit up here and talk this jive.
> 
> Please, you're an absolute disgrace to this community, and an extremely rude person with a very creative imagination. Nothing more, nothing less.
> 
> If you have nothing further to add, get that thread going and lets do this.
> 
> Are are you really just a chicken? :hubba:
> 
> Cluck Cluck
> 
> 
> For others who are more interested in facts, this is a very low yielding Purple Diesel plant that I did under LED's anyway. It's actually done better under LED's over HPS and quite outstanding. I am sure NVthis can comment if anyone has a dispute about this particular pheno.
> 
> View attachment 196469




pjammers it is quite obvious you are not familiar with the term _put up or shut up_. That was directed towards all these led growers that make all these false claims then fail to prove it. Now I am not saying you proved anything, as like I said I have not met you, do not know you, nor do I care to know you but with your actions on this forum, I would suspect you would do anything to prove your point. This would include using a hps at the same time as a led. Not say you do, but you might because I do not trust or know you. Got it.... And I guess we will all just have to take your word that you ran the test and eta and they were observed my an independent observer so that we know everything was legit? I have stepped away to let you prove your point but that is not enough you two have to go into name calling and eta...Now who is the disgrace? 

I did not go to your web site and cause all this drama, I did not call anyone any names. But it is ok for you and your gang to come here and call us closed minded, big mouths,chicken and be antagonistic? Go back and read the thread I was not the one that left pouting just because a member asked a question he didn't like. My.... my who was the chicken then? and scared to post until he got his gang together? Tried to make us feel sorry for him cause hes old. Go back and read the thread and show me where I said they would not work? Bet you can't. I said they were lacking and just because one person might have had a successful grow does not mean they are a success..lol..

If anyone is a disgrace it is you and my my for your childish behavior. How can anyone take the two of you serious with that kind of behavior? 

But the 2 of ya are funny I will say that :rofl:

Even funnier pjammers is, you were not even posting when AM was on his soapbox and now it looks like you are just upset that I did not run on over to cannetics and look at your grow thread.:rofl:



			
				pjammers said:
			
		

> You were asked in a kind way to check out my threads at another board you are a member of.



You guys really are a hoot:rofl:


----------



## Growdude

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Drawing no, producing yes in short. A quick Google search will explain how that works.


 
I did a search and found out the Apollo 10 is 350 watts, so 10 are drawing the same current as your HPS setups.

I can see the equal wattage setups producing equal results.


----------



## Rosebud

I am sad PJ left again. I enjoyed him 2 years ago and would like for him to be a regular here. But I guess he can't stay. That is very sad for MP. The guy has some knowledge.

Geez, Peter, think about it.


----------



## NorCalHal

P Jammers said:
			
		

> That goes for anyone here who wants to do a comparison and show results out in the open
> 
> For others who are more interested in facts, this is a very low yielding Purple Diesel plant that I did under LED's anyway. It's actually done better under LED's over HPS and quite outstanding. I am sure NVthis can comment if anyone has a dispute about this particular pheno.
> 
> View attachment 196469


 

I'll take that challenge.

Not knocking LED's at all, but I too grew the same pheno Purp Diesel as you have and it was far from a low yeilder...coke cans.

Now I ain't wanting to grow Purp diesel again, thats for sure, I hated that herb.

I agree with you Jammers, LED's are not for everyone, but I do think they would perform well for folks in smaller set ups and closely monitored.
For me, costs are the killer. Shoot man, I just switched to digi's haha. 

But that was quite a challenge and claim you made. Basically, you stated you would outgrow anyone, better yeild and faster with LED's. I have much respect for you sir, but I call **.  
If for one minuate you think that lights is what makes a grower sucessful, you are mistaken sir. Many,many factors.


----------



## nvthis

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> I too grew the same pheno Purp Diesel as you have


 
Not sayin' it ain't so, but how did that happen? I know we both got ours from Cali, but hardly from the same source. That, I know, is a fact.

Reason I say is more and more seed born PD's are coming out of the woodwork anymore. But, I digress, your point is easily seen .

Were those coke cans from hydro? I am guessing it must have been, and you must have blown it up proper too.. Cuz the PD we have been running has been OD this year, and I cannot say there are any coke cans out there, even on trees under the sun.. If we were on the same pheno, that would be totally surprizing, possibly even shocking.

On a side note, it's interesting how you hated it.. I get ribbed a lot cuz there are a few flavors I cannot tolerate. Like Cheese. Man, I can't stand that ****. Oh, or the worst of all. Pine tree weed. If it smells like pine, I don't want it anywhere near me. I am completely repulsed by it, yet, of course, it is extremely popular. You are the first person I've seen who has said they hated PD.. Man, humans are a trip


----------



## ston-loc

Nothing useful to add to this thread but a :chillpill: 
Trimmed all day, and gotta say, this plant is an amazing thing regardless of how one gets an ends to their means... To each their own :48:


----------



## P Jammers

Rosebud said:
			
		

> I am sad PJ left again. I enjoyed him 2 years ago and would like for him to be a regular here. But I guess he can't stay. That is very sad for MP. The guy has some knowledge.
> 
> Geez, Peter, think about it.






			
				P Jammers said:
			
		

> Not the building, just the thread guys.
> :hubba:



In case you missed that Rose.


----------



## NorCalHal

nvthis said:
			
		

> Not sayin' it ain't so, but how did that happen? I know we both got ours from Cali, but hardly from the same source. That, I know, is a fact.
> 
> Reason I say is more and more seed born PD's are coming out of the woodwork anymore. But, I digress, your point is easily seen .
> 
> Were those coke cans from hydro? I am guessing it must have been, and you must have blown it up proper too.. Cuz the PD we have been running has been OD this year, and I cannot say there are any coke cans out there, even on trees under the sun.. If we were on the same pheno, that would be totally surprizing, possibly even shocking.
> 
> On a side note, it's interesting how you hated it.. I get ribbed a lot cuz there are a few flavors I cannot tolerate. Like Cheese. Man, I can't stand that ****. Oh, or the worst of all. Pine tree weed. If it smells like pine, I don't want it anywhere near me. I am completely repulsed by it, yet, of course, it is extremely popular. You are the first person I've seen who has said they hated PD.. Man, humans are a trip


 
Haha..ya man, I'm a freak, I hate purp herb, just a taste thing for me.
My bad, I thought it was one of the flavs I hooked u up back a couple years ago. I threw that cut to alot of folks. I think it came from HS. So, it prob is a different pheno.
I have seen the pheno I had grown by quite a few folks, and for whatever reason, it turned out huge for me. On that same pheno, my friend had some of the smallest nugs I have seen from her. She was totally wffected by temp, the cooler the temp, the less yeild. You have to run higher temps until the last couple of weeks to get fat nug I found.

I know, I know, pictures worth a thousand words, but alas, I don't have any of those grows anymore man.

Hit me up NV btw, I am heading up North quite often lately, we should hook up.


----------



## nvthis

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> for whatever reason, it turned out huge for me..


 
That's because you are a sick, sick man with insane skills.... I'll drop ya a pm later, bro


----------



## sunakard2000

just as a note im currently using 2 135watt LED UFOs with 45 3watt LED chips per UFO... iv said this in a few posts but seeing as this is an LED specific thread ill update in a few weeks as well... i havnt kept a super good record of my full grow since my camera sucks big time, how ever i have used these 2 UFOs from sprout > veg > and now flowering. i started off with the LEDs cuz they were actually pretty cheap and cost effective on electricity consumption so i thought F-it why not lets do this... im currently a little over 2 weeks into flowering, infact today is day 21, iv already got some good growth, pretty close in comparison to my friend whos strictly using T5/HPS for his veg/flower, at my 2 week mark my plant is closely resembling his plants, nickle to quarter sized popcorn buds on the lower 2/3 of growth (both of us trimmed the lower 1/3 of the plant at around week 1.5/2 as the lower branches wernt doing anything flowering wise) so the lower 2/3 of whats left on the plants... the top 1/3 has quarter sized popcorn buds and a good healthy Kola about .5-1inch across and about 5-6 inches+ tall... not bad for only 19 days... i am buying a HPS setup for about $200 in a few weeks but i WILL NOT be using it for this grow, i want to see just what kinda of "balls" these UFOs actually have. so keep an eye out ill be updating a few threads with a few pics of about 1 week from harvest as well as the harvest with weight stats wet&dry. im sure its not gonna be AS close as an HPS but so far im liking what i see... and $7 a month on my electric bill for running my 2 UFOs, fan and Co2 bucket aint bad lol... ill let yall know my thoughts on everything reguarding these UFOs after my harvest...

as always stay safe and much green mojo my friends


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

How about some pics as you are going along so we can see bud development from week to week?


----------



## sunakard2000

sure... its gonna be about 2-3 weeks into flowering... just finished a job so ill be getting paid in the next few days, ill update asap


----------



## Roddy

^^^:yeahthat:^^^


----------



## niteshft

Here's another plant I'm doing under the LEDs, Electric Haze. Sweet looking plant and can hardly wait to harvest. The temps are coming down during lights out so she is putting on alot of color.













I didn't read the whole thread and don't know if this is in here but this is the chart of the light arrangement. My Apollo 6 has 6 of these per light and is PJ's design which he got the company to put together. (PJ doesn't benefit from this other than getting a light with the parameters he wants). As you can see, they have specific "temps" rather than color. It is these temps that researchers have determined the plants use for specific needs and is why PJ made his request to the company.  *EDIT: I tried to delete the chart per PJ's request. It was a wrong chart as it was too, hot and has been changed. For some reason I can't delete it.
*
  One other point I would like to make about running the LEDs is that, each light can be adjusted for it own plant dependant on how much it stretches. Also, sometimes I don't have a plant ready to go in to replace the one coming out and can switch that particular light off....less waste!


----------



## Rosebud

Looks nice niteshft. How long in flower? What medium are you in?


----------



## Locked

Thanks for chiming in and providing that info niteshft. nice looking lady you got there.


----------



## dman1234

Im so glad ppl are having success, we all need this to work eventually cause heat is the biggest issue, it is for me anyways, and LEDS will help that alot, keep it up guys, im not ready to switch yet but when i am i know what i plan to look into, if you can sift through all the shiz in this thread there is some great info.


----------



## Locked

dman1234 said:
			
		

> Im so glad ppl are having success, we all need this to work eventually cause heat is the biggest issue, it is for me anyways, and LEDS will help that alot, keep it up guys, im not ready to switch yet but when i am i know what i plan to look into, if you can sift through all the shiz in this thread there is some great info.



:yeahthat:


Heat is why I don't grow in the Summer. Any of us that have tried to fight the Summer heat know it's no fun and unless you have some coin to spend on an AC solution it seems to always be a losing battle.
Hey I am pretty skeptical and have almost gone down the LED route before. I was going to get another 600w HPS but I am going to give LED a shot instead. Being able to grow in the Summer would be pretty cool in and of itself, but it would also give me more options in the Fall/Winter as well.


----------



## sunakard2000

alright, still havnt gotten a better camera but iv posted what iv got thus far in the indoor grow section of the forums... heres a quick link check it out

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=799939&posted=1#post799939

ok quick link wont post >_< copy paste it or go look in Indoor Grow section post named "My Little Grow 100% LED"


----------



## niteshft

Rosebud said:
			
		

> Looks nice niteshft. How long in flower? What medium are you in?


 
Thanks Rose and nice to see you again, by the way!

 She's been in flower for 60 days but I may be mistaken on the strain. It was one of those things where the lable got washed under the soil during watering and lost during repotting. Someone commented they didn't think it fit the flower time for her....she looks too, close to finish for it to be the Electric Haze. I don't care, she looks nice no matter what it is, I just hope it smokes nice. 

  I run a 50/50 mix of Ocean Forest and ProMix and have been having great results with it. It holds water very well and gives me more free time and the plants seem to love it.


----------



## Rosebud

Thanks niteshf. Good to see you too! Keep up the good work.


----------



## Roddy

Great pics, Nite, thanks!!


----------



## cubby

Whatever she is Niteshift, she sure looks tasty. Congrats on a nice fat plant.


----------



## my my

today is 54 days of (COMBINED) flower time (T-5) then LED for this girl..
With my hand held scope trichs are clear/cloudy..


----------



## Locked

Pretty colors on her my my....kinda psychedelic. Like a multi headed snake.


----------



## niteshft

I purchased a watt miser today to check what the LEDs were pulling comparred to the 1000w HPS they are replacing. I calculated the wattage per light by simply counting the LEDs X wattage (3 watt each) = 270 watts per unit. I have 6 Apollo 6's so that's a total of 1620 watts.  Ha-ha...no wonder my plants are doing so well, I probably could've gotten by with the Apollo 4's. The LEDs put out alot more of the "useable" spectrum to the plant so the wattage doesn't need to be as high as HIDs. I plan to disconnect two of the fixtures in each unit and see how the plants respond.

Well, back to the watt mizer. Altho the fixture has 270 watts worth of bulbs it is only pulling 194 watts at the outlet. With all 6 units plugged in, that then drew a total of 1128 watts, rather then the calculated 1620 watts. Putting 2 fixtures in each unit out of service will reduce that by one third.

Hope that helps!


----------



## Growdude

niteshft said:
			
		

> I purchased a watt miser today to check what the LEDs were pulling comparred to the 1000w HPS they are replacing. I calculated the wattage per light by simply counting the LEDs X wattage (3 watt each) = 270 watts per unit. I have 6 Apollo 6's so that's a total of 1620 watts. Ha-ha...no wonder my plants are doing so well, I probably could've gotten by with the Apollo 4's. The LEDs put out alot more of the "useable" spectrum to the plant so the wattage doesn't need to be as high as HIDs. I plan to disconnect two of the fixtures in each unit and see how the plants respond.
> 
> Well, back to the watt mizer. Altho the fixture has 270 watts worth of bulbs it is only pulling 194 watts at the outlet. With all 6 units plugged in, that then drew a total of 1128 watts, rather then the calculated 1620 watts. Putting 2 fixtures in each unit out of service will reduce that by one third.
> 
> Hope that helps!


 

This is what I have a problem with, the Apollo 6 claims it will replace a 400 hps all day. hxxp://www.genericled.com/shop/apollo-6/

A single apollo 10 replaces a 1000 watt hxxp://www.genericled.com/shop/apollo-10/, that should be the same as 6000 watts in PJ's grow.

We should be seeing results at least twice as good, while there is no question they are growing extremely well its just not matching the manufactures claims.
Therefore the cost savings are negligible with only saving on cooling and bulbs.


----------



## WeedHopper

I thought Lumens is what grew weed,,not watts.


----------



## Roddy

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> I thought Lumens is what grew weed,,not watts.



With that in mind, what are the lumen comparisons? I'd guess the HPS throws a lot more, but maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised?


----------



## Locked

I think you also have to take into account that LED's don't waste power on the unusable spectrum of light like a HPS does.


----------



## NorCalHal

I'm just not buyin' it man. Is it me, or do those plants not look good at all??
Not tryin' to knock your grow my my, but that don't look good to me. Sure, the plant lived and produced herb, but there is no way that out performed a 1000 hid.
does anyone growing with LED's have huge buds? Until I see something equal at least to what an HID will produce, I think folks are tryinn' to reinvent the wheel.

I looked at the photo's of the buds, and they seem quite small compared to HID grown nugs. Now, I am sure that the herb is good, and they look triched out, but it's about weight and quality imo.

I wanna see a nug like this grown under LED's, and then I will eat my words.


----------



## NorCalHal

As far as the Power consumption, "You get what you pay for" comes to mind.


----------



## my my

I agree NorCal.
I have not gotten a power bill since i took the T-5 out and put the LED's in its place...
keep in mind before you look at the girl under my 1K...
the girl under the LED lights, i thinned the heck out of.....
both th eled girl an dth e1K have been in flower the same amount of time... the girl under the 1K has been around for about 5 months before i flowered her tho,, th eled girl was a clone from a sister plant under the 1K
and i use the 1K to also help heat the building the girls are in.. 
So it is going to be next spring before i am able to give my LED's a fair complete grow....
In the summer months i had to use a 600 instead of the 1K becouse of heat, even with a water chiller...
so i will be excited to see the difference next summer.


----------



## WeedHopper

Thats what I was thinking Norcal. I grew bigger nugs with T5s. But to each his own. I do like the idea of LEDs,,just dont see them replacing HPS for Flower or T5s for Vegging,,, anytime soon. I look for Lumens per watt,,and the best BANG for my buck. LEDS do not give the Lumens and penetration ya need for good Bud. Maybe some day,,not just yet though.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

niteshft said:
			
		

> I purchased a watt miser today to check what the LEDs were pulling comparred to the 1000w HPS they are replacing. I calculated the wattage per light by simply counting the LEDs X wattage (3 watt each) = 270 watts per unit. I have 6 Apollo 6's so that's a total of 1620 watts.  Ha-ha...no wonder my plants are doing so well, I probably could've gotten by with the Apollo 4's. The LEDs put out alot more of the "useable" spectrum to the plant so the wattage doesn't need to be as high as HIDs. I plan to disconnect two of the fixtures in each unit and see how the plants respond.
> 
> Well, back to the watt mizer. Altho the fixture has 270 watts worth of bulbs it is only pulling 194 watts at the outlet. With all 6 units plugged in, that then drew a total of 1128 watts, rather then the calculated 1620 watts. Putting 2 fixtures in each unit out of service will reduce that by one third.
> 
> Hope that helps!



Niteshift--I'm confused...I do not understand this.  If it is only pulling 194 watts how could it possibly be putting out 270 watts--electricity does not work that way.  Are these not really 270W, but actually 194W?  So the bulbs are not drawing/emitting 270W?  :confused2:


----------



## NorCalHal

The newer LED's are much improved from what they were for sure.
It is an alternitive for folks in different growing situations.


----------



## nouvellechef

Ahh. Putting it so sweet..


----------



## NorCalHal

Haha Chef! I'm getting nicer in my old age....


----------



## niteshft

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Niteshift--I'm confused...I do not understand this.  If it is only pulling 194 watts how could it possibly be putting out 270 watts--electricity does not work that way.  Are these not really 270W, but actually 194W?  So the bulbs are not drawing/emitting 270W?  :confused2:


 
I don't know THG, I just did the math and compared that to the meter. Maybe someone with more knowledge on how LED wattage @ 12v compared to HID at 120v is calculated will chime in. Maybe the LEDs aren't drawing the full power and there's head room....I just don't know.

  In all honesty, comparing LEDs to HIDs is like comparing apples to oranges. Sure, the HIDs are putting out more lumens but they are nothing but street lamps that have been tweaked a little bit to put out more of the specific wavelength that the plant can use but those lights can be tweaked just so much. Only about 10% of the wavelengths they put out can actually be used by the plant. LEDs on the other hand can be manufactured to put out a specific wavelength to match what the plant needs, with the exception for ultraviolet but that can be filled in with an aquarium bulb as it doesn't need much. (I don't use any).

  I have some Big Bud coming down the pike so we'll see how that does as far as bud size and density and will likely be doing it with 2 of the fixtures in each unit disabled. The buds on my Haze came out just as good, if not better, than any Haze I've done to date under 1000w HID, without the leaf loss I usually get late in flowering.

 I should've taken harvest shots but the lower section is still in flower and I'll try and get a shot or two today. I was surprised to see how well the lower buds did under the LEDs, expecting to see less penetration therefor, lighter buds, but that wasn't the case. I rarely harvest my plants in stages and just throw the lower buds in with the trim for hash or whatever but the lower buds on this plant were so firm that I decided to save them.


----------



## P Jammers

UV and Blue LEDs run at 3.8V input voltage; Red LED run at 2.6V input voltage; IR LED run at 1.7V input voltage. All run at 700mA input current.

If one was to search the standard Apollo 6 they would see a wattage given, however if they are tweaked to a specific design like I did with these the actual wattage is changed, hence the power draw shown by your meter NS.

It's pretty standard for a company to give a wattage based on the combination of bulbs at 3 watts each, meaning if the cluster has 40 bulbs at 3 watts each they will call it 120 watts. That said if the colors are more red the wattage will drop, and visa versa.

Each of your lights are 194 watts which if you were comparing to an HPS bulb you are getting about the effectiveness of a 400 watt HPS bulb for each fixture, which is why you are seeing an increase of lower flowers, and not the typical popcorn seen from HPS bulbs.

I also wanted to note for Niteshft since I am no longer a member of another site where I was sharing info as I heard through the grapevine. 

I was under the impression when you asked for my help that you wanted to make your plants increase yield, and because your legal numbers were a concern you asked me what "I" would do. I was never under the impression that you were trying to save on power, so we tried to match what you were running power wise but increase effectiveness. 

If I steered you wrong I am sorry for that, as well as My My. Neither of you ever mentioned you wanted to save on power, so in both cases I doubled your intensity while pretty much keeping total power consumption the same.

I am glad to hear that your results have gotten better making the switch, as that was the intention I had in mind.

Rule of thumb in case that info has gotten crossed. A 300 watt LED has the effectiveness or useable light of a 600 watt HPS setup. A lot of companies say it is about three times, but the real facts are closer to about twice the amount of useable light.

Hope that clears up some info for you.

PJ


----------



## Locked

Thanks for clearing that up PJ...


----------



## my my

Thanks PJ,
I am fine with the LED's...
For my case however, i do nto think they are going to work out well in the winter months for me...
But will really help out in the summer time...
Again Thanks PJ...
BTW.
Miss ya! 
My My


----------



## WeedHopper

I cant see any 300 watt LED having more effectiveness or penatration(which you need) then a 600 watt HPS.
Im not trying to give ya a hard time Bro,,but some of these things dont add up.


----------



## niteshft

Well, that clears a couple of things up for me but most importantly, PJ is the same PJ from "that" other site, lol. Cool as I was hoping to be able to keep in touch.....I missed ya too, man.

No problems with the LEDs on my end either. Like I said, I'll disable a couple of the fixtures in the unit and go from there.


----------



## Locked

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> I cant see any 300 watt LED having more effectiveness or penatration(which you need) then a 600 watt HPS.
> Im not trying to give ya a hard time Bro,,but some of these things dont add up.



I think the effectiveness comes from them not wasting power on the unusable light spectrum. I believe an HPS puts out a lot of spectrum that the plant does not use. Not to mention all the power going towards the heat the HPS creates. Jmo


----------



## P Jammers

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> I cant see any 300 watt LED having more effectiveness or penatration(which you need) then a 600 watt HPS.
> Im not trying to give ya a hard time Bro,,but some of these things dont add up.



Not sure where you are reading where I said that a 300 watt LED has more effectiveness than a 600 watt HPS? 

I said it is equal too. LED's have twice the amount of useable light per watt.

I have also answered the penetration question. Growing and flowering with LED's is different in that you do not grow trees.

What the normal guy grows with HPS at 4 feet can be accomplished at about 2 feet with LED's.

Not sure what does not add up for you, or make sense? 

Help me understand what you don't think adds up and maybe I can help you understand.

Again, LED's are not going to be for everyone, but for someone just getting started, or wanting to cut your overall cost over time, they are a no brainer.


----------



## Roddy

*What the normal guy grows with HPS at 4 feet can be accomplished at about 2 feet with LED's.*

Maybe I missed something, but how is this possible without making the plant 2x as big around? A plant will only produce so much regardless of lights, right?


----------



## niteshft

That is quite a bold statement...not your every day grower is going to acomplish that, IMO.

  Well anyway, here are the pics I promised. The first two are the tub of buds and what was left after the chop, still alot there to harvest. The rest are just randome shots of the lower buds.


----------



## Growdude

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Rule of thumb in case that info has gotten crossed. A 300 watt LED has the effectiveness or useable light of a 600 watt HPS setup.
> PJ


 

Then why did you replace your 2, 1000 watt setups with 6 appolo 10's?

I thought the whole idea was to save money on electricity costs?
For questionable results we should be drawing about half power.


----------



## P Jammers

Roddy said:
			
		

> *What the normal guy grows with HPS at 4 feet can be accomplished at about 2 feet with LED's.*
> 
> Maybe I missed something, but how is this possible without making the plant 2x as big around? A plant will only produce so much regardless of lights, right?


Good question, and I will explain. [Again let me preface this by stating that this is with an LED I designed, and not ALL LED's are the same. This also is not any of the lights shown in this thread or discussed]

If one uses LED's to veg plants stacking of nodes is very tight.  Stretch in flowering is very limited creating plants that are extremely tight, however you are able to obtain the same amount, and in some cases more, and some less, but as a general rule more bud sites PSF per plant. 

Your A typical plant that stretched to 4 feet and went 2 to 3 zips just finished at 2 feet and yielded exactly the same.

Exhibit A

This is a Blue Meanie clone only I run. This plant was 18" tall at the finish. It yielded 54grams of medicine.



Hope that all made sense.


----------



## P Jammers

Growdude said:
			
		

> Then why did you replace your 2, 1000 watt setups with 6 appolo 10's?
> 
> I thought the whole idea was to save money on electricity costs?
> For questionable results we should be drawing about half power.



When I ran 2 1000's I used and still use an HID-2 light controller and I flip flopped back and forth every three hours within a 12 hr period. 

I tested the theory back when I ran HPS, and saw no loss, or gain. 

Well maybe a little gain back in my pocket and not in the electrical companies.


----------



## Roddy

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Good question, and I will explain. [Again let me preface this by stating that this is with an LED I designed, and not ALL LED's are the same. This also is not any of the lights shown in this thread or discussed]
> 
> If one uses LED's to veg plants stacking of nodes is very tight.  Stretch in flowering is very limited creating plants that are extremely tight, however you are able to obtain the same amount, and in some cases more, and some less, but as a general rule more bud sites PSF per plant.
> 
> Your A typical plant that stretched to 4 feet and went 2 to 3 zips just finished at 2 feet and yielded exactly the same.
> 
> Exhibit A
> 
> This is a Blue Meanie clone only I run. This plant was 18" tall at the finish. It yielded 54grams of medicine.
> View attachment 197178
> 
> 
> Hope that all made sense.



It made sense, but I have a hard time believing this is the case time after time. Simply put, I have grown and am growing gals that would be hard-pressed to fit additional bud sites on....

If your claim might have been faster grow rates due to better light usage, I'd have been on the bus, but I'm having a hard time with your statement claiming more sites/shorter gal.


----------



## P Jammers

While I am not a member of this site, perhaps you might find some interesting reading over at hXXp://ledgrowlightforum.com/

Check out the California Light works threads. You'll have to read through and decide for yourself who knows what they are doing, and how many new growers there are by looking at the plants they are growing. 

There are a lot of newer growers there and because I do not use their brand I wouldn't be of much assistance to them.

At least it will give you an idea, and those guys are all using half power.

California Light Works also just added a grower feedback program on their home page for their 400 watt I believe. You give a deposit and at the end of your journal you can either return it for your money back, or keep it at half the price of a new light they sell.

Still pretty pricy, but for anyone who is legal it's worth the price of admission to see for yourself.


----------



## P Jammers

Roddy said:
			
		

> It made sense, but I have a hard time believing this is the case time after time. Simply put, I have grown and am growing gals that would be hard-pressed to fit additional bud sites on....


I just clicked on a brand new thread over there. Thought you may find this interesting.



> spacecadets10]
> Received 400w Solarstorm last week and had up and running that night.  Delivery was prompt. This is my second 400w Solarstorm so that should  tell you my feelings about the product.  I purchased my first light  about three months ago to replace a 400w MH i was using for the veg  stage.  I was looking to upgrade to a more efficient light and had heard  LEDs where great for veg.  After shopping for a LED decided on the  Solarstorm. Being my first LED I was a little skeptical but have been  more then impressed with the results. *My plants have not been strecthing   like they were under the metal halide light and are developing almost  twice as many flowering sites as before.*  Besides being more efficient  they lights run a lot cooler so I decided to get another Solarstorm and  try flowering with it. I put both 400w solarstorm lights in my 5x7  flower room.  I have ten small to medium sized plants in 3 gallon pot  with organic soil. The plants where under the Storm for veg and Have  been flowering for two weeks, the first under the MH, and both  Soloarstorms since. Cant wait to see how they do in flower.


----------



## ShOrTbUs

imo unless you have unreasonably cold temps, i feel as though MH are obsolete. if grown properly you should NEVER see any stretch from cfl & ho t5's in veg. t5's being more popular b/c they cover a wider area and are more efficient.

after following this thread from start to finish, this is my personal take on the subject:

led's have come a long way, and are now a viable option for flowering. are they the best option? it depends if your growing for quality or quantity. its about what is more important to you and your grow personally. i think that since LED's have more usable light that they will produce a SLIGHTLY overall better quality product. this is just an assumption of mine, b/c i have never grown with LEd's or even smoked mj from an LED' grow(that i know of). BUT led's lack in the quantity department, UNLESS running SOG. hps seems to produce larger bud sites then LED. due to more penetration power. 

what i'd really like to see is a hps w/CO2 vs led grow w/CO2... i wanna see how they match up under 100% optimal conditions

for me its as simple as this...if i'm a new grower i should look into LED's as a possible pathway. BUT there is no reason in their current state to replace hps with LED

i have yet to puchase my 600w hps light. after going through this thread, a lot of google searches, and getting a few questions answered. i've decided that hps is right for me.

EDIT: a question i cant find the answer for. maybe u can help pjammers.

i've heard from a fellow local grower who has a very strong opinion that LED's are now the BEST...and theirs no debating him b/c he's never wrong(u know the type)

i heard from him that they are now making 5watt diodes. from every post i've seen, all of your lights are running 3watt diodes. is there any truth to this? are they still beta testing the higher wattage, and have yet to put into production?


----------



## Roddy

P Jammers said:
			
		

> I just clicked on a brand new thread over there. Thought you may find this interesting.




Guy's vegging under MH....this alone doesn't instill a huge amount of trust in his overall growing skills, most of us know T5's is the way to go for the tight veg!

I agree with Shortbus there, some people might find LED useful while many others still won't. I wouldn't state these lights are great for beginners without pointing out the problems one will undoubtedly face if one doesn't know how to grow....mainly having to keep em short. I also wouldn't tout them as the best thing out there since they do fall "short" 

As I said, I have grown and am growing a very tight and short gal...but one might ask themselves why I'd be growing mainly large gals...especially if short works better?

One of these days, LED will improve penetration. Until then, HPS is king for me!


----------



## Roddy

PJ, have you ever vegged with T5's?


----------



## Roddy

*what i'd really like to see is a hps w/CO2 vs led grow w/CO2... i wanna see how they match up under 100% optimal conditions* 

Curious as to the effectiveness of CO2 in a cooler running room, I too would like to hear from someone with better knowledge on this.


----------



## Locked

Roddy said:
			
		

> *what i'd really like to see is a hps w/CO2 vs led grow w/CO2... i wanna see how they match up under 100% optimal conditions*
> 
> Curious as to the effectiveness of CO2 in a cooler running room, I too would like to hear from someone with better knowledge on this.




Pretty sure you would need to raise the temps for it to be "optimal".  Higher temps, sealed grow area isn't optional with CO2 from what I have read.


----------



## Roddy

Yeah, I thought the same....


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

ShOrTbUs said:
			
		

> BUT led's lack in the quantity department, UNLESS running SOG. hps seems to produce larger bud sites then LED. due to more penetration power.


 
You obviously didnt read the thread like you said...   Nobody using LED has even mentioned running SOG style in this thread...?     they are running plants...  look at the pictures...  read the posts....


----------



## NorCalHal

Roddy said:
			
		

> *what i'd really like to see is a hps w/CO2 vs led grow w/CO2... i wanna see how they match up under 100% optimal conditions*
> 
> Curious as to the effectiveness of CO2 in a cooler running room, I too would like to hear from someone with better knowledge on this.


 

IMO, it would be spinnin' wheels. In order for the stomata to open up fully to utilize the incresed CO2 levals, temps must be ran higher.

T5's do rock....but MH will smash a T5 for veg anyday. Well, a 1000 watt MH sure will.  You boys be trippin' if you think that a MH will cause node spacing to be stretched out. Node spacing is very strain dependant for one, but in my experience, no issues with crazy stretch unless you are underlit.


----------



## NorCalHal

Whats happening P Jammers! Good to see you on the boards here.
Thanks for posting the info on the LED's. Very Interesting read for sure.

For my growing situation, they are simply not for me, but I do see them being a "cooler" choice for some folks for sure.


----------



## Roddy

tbh, I've only vegged under MH a few runs before switching to T5's, the closer light and lack of heat seemed to make the plants grow tighter and really was cheaper as well. 

*no issues with crazy stretch unless you are underlit.*


----------



## P Jammers

Ugg, typed out a book and it got erased trying to post. This time we go shorter.

@Shortbus

Yes I have heard 5 watt LED's are out although I have not seen or used them. 

As far as CO2 I am in a sealed lab using CO2, a Mini Split AC, Dehu, and a CHHC-4 environment controller. Room temps are set to 85 with a 3 degree variance, and I run 72 during the dark cycle. I ran that way with HPS as well and noticed about a 10% increase in over all plant finishing times, and about a 20% increase in yield. 


NOTE: Most strains are flipped at about 4 to 6 inches from clone, and @ 7 nodes from seed.

@Roddy

Yes I vegged under a Tek 2x4 8 T5 HO bulb fixture for years and got very similar results. The main difference outside of power is the heat. T5's throw way more heat than LED's do, and consume way more power. 

I also agree that LED's are not for a brand new grower, in fact I think I have said that about 3 to 5 times already in the thread. They are not for everyone, but going back this thread was more about how they don't work, and I came here to set the record straight and help others better understand.

 As good as they can be for perfectly healthy plants, they can be detrimental for a plant with a PH issue, or deficiency as they are not very forgiving. 

Hope I got the questions, Coffee just now brewing and I haven't had an ounce...


----------



## NorCalHal

Roddy said:
			
		

> tbh, I've only vegged under MH a few runs before switching to T5's, the closer light and lack of heat seemed to make the plants grow tighter and really was cheaper as well.
> 
> *no issues with crazy stretch unless you are underlit.*


 
They are cheaper for sure, and I do use T5's every click. I start out my girls under T5's until they are rootbound in a 4x4" pot, then they get transplanted and put under the MH. Explosive growth.


----------



## NorCalHal

@ PJ  How do you like you CHHC-4? Gotta love it right? What mini split are you rockin'?
I talked to the Sentinal folks at the last trade show and they are coming out with a new controller that has an ethernet port. This will allow you to monitor the unit and change variables remotely from a smart phone.


----------



## P Jammers

The CHHC-4 is really nice. Set it and forget it. I see that there are several companies coming out with smart phone apps, which really ticks me off. That is what I wanted from the get, and was talking with Sero Systems until they decided they are too busy to keep people informed on their products, but they were the first company I saw to come out with that feature. 

I still may go with Sero if they ever get their act together. 

As far as the mini, I have a 12000 BTU KLIMAIRE Inverter Ductless Mini Split  Air Conditioner 16SEER. 
Love it!


----------



## my my

61 Days into flower now...
Like PJ mentioned PH issues will show up more..   i always seem to fight PH when i am just flowering in a 5 gall. DWC... my DIY RDWC set up i much prefur..
Anyway here are her shots... 
the leaves feel so much more  oily to me, compaired to the girl under the 1K.
speaking of 1K. that girl got 2 different kinds of spider mites, dang it. so she is being chopped now, @ 8.5 weeks....
The Led Girl will be chopped after i am done with the other girl...
I won't be running the LED's again untill spring when temps are warmer.they then will be replacing my 1K in the flower room. for the summer. 
As i do NOT have a Lab like PJ.. i just grow in a old shack...lol...


----------



## Roddy

*I also agree that LED's are not for a brand new grower, in fact I think I have said that about 3 to 5 times already in the thread.*

:aok: I might have misunderstood the "no brainer" comment earlier...


----------



## Roddy

Sorry about the mite attack, my my, sad news! Pics look good, thanks for sharing!


----------



## Roddy

PJ, do you use the same LED setup from veg through bud?


----------



## ShOrTbUs

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> You obviously didnt read the thread like you said...   Nobody using LED has even mentioned running SOG style in this thread...?     they are running plants...  look at the pictures...  read the posts....



where in my post did i say anyone has? sog is the only way i see led's matching hps in weight. which is clearly an opinion of mine. are your trying to argue that my opinion is wrong? if so, maybe you should look up the definition of opinion. better yet, how about you contribute to the thread instead of over analyzing and unsuccessfully attempting to debunk my opinions. causing unwanted drama in a thread that clearly doesn't need anymore.


----------



## P Jammers

Roddy said:
			
		

> PJ, do you use the same LED setup from veg through bud?


No, totally different setup.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

ShOrTbUs said:
			
		

> where in my post did i say anyone has? sog is the only way i see led's matching hps in weight. which is clearly an opinion of mine. are your trying to argue that my opinion is wrong? if so, maybe you should look up the definition of opinion. better yet, how about you contribute to the thread instead of over analyzing and unsuccessfully attempting to debunk my opinions. causing unwanted drama in a thread that clearly doesn't need anymore.


 
Dude read the thread....  PJ has stated most of the strains he runs that the yield actually increased....?   

I dont understand why everyone thinks the only way to yield with LEDs is SOG?  Its simply not true...


----------



## Roddy

*I dont understand why everyone thinks*

I just read the whole thread again and I don't understand why you say EVERYONE....

It has been said the gals need to be smaller, maybe there was a bit of misunderstanding or maybe that's how Shortbus sees it working best, idk. Either way it's not that big a deal really.....lol, a small one


----------



## Roddy

One place I could definitely see this lighting work better would be for headspace limited growers who had a good bit of start up money.

Maybe when they figure out the science, the prices will also drop.


----------



## DrFever

ShOrTbUs said:
			
		

> imo unless you have unreasonably cold temps, i feel as though MH are obsolete. if grown properly you should NEVER see any stretch from cfl & ho t5's in veg. t5's being more popular b/c they cover a wider area and are more efficient.
> 
> after following this thread from start to finish, this is my personal take on the subject:
> 
> led's have come a long way, and are now a viable option for flowering. are they the best option? it depends if your growing for quality or quantity. its about what is more important to you and your grow personally. i think that since LED's have more usable light that they will produce a SLIGHTLY overall better quality product. this is just an assumption of mine, b/c i have never grown with LEd's or even smoked mj from an LED' grow(that i know of). BUT led's lack in the quantity department, UNLESS running SOG. hps seems to produce larger bud sites then LED. due to more penetration power.
> 
> what i'd really like to see is a hps w/CO2 vs led grow w/CO2... i wanna see how they match up under 100% optimal conditions
> 
> for me its as simple as this...if i'm a new grower i should look into LED's as a possible pathway. BUT there is no reason in their current state to replace hps with LED
> 
> i have yet to puchase my 600w hps light. after going through this thread, a lot of google searches, and getting a few questions answered. i've decided that hps is right for me.
> 
> EDIT: a question i cant find the answer for. maybe u can help pjammers.
> 
> i've heard from a fellow local grower who has a very strong opinion that LED's are now the BEST...and theirs no debating him b/c he's never wrong(u know the type)
> 
> i heard from him that they are now making 5watt diodes. from every post i've seen, all of your lights are running 3watt diodes. is there any truth to this? are they still beta testing the higher wattage, and have yet to put into production?



IMO LED will never  out perform HID lighting  in any aspect of growth  yield or anything else for that matter    we always see  these LED threads pop up owe them nice looking  purple plants look so nice  but after a  few weeks  and most importantly  flowering phase  thread an OP  disappears you ever wonder why???? 
 I'll tell you  LED are WEAK period  perfect for the closet grower  worried about heat issues   wooot  but wait one moment  here  LED do produce internal heat  and that is bad stuff  specially  for life expectancy.
 And why will LED never compete  easy   try competing with hordilux  a company that spends million upon millions on QC and  bettering there products  

 Until  a LED panel  can produce a bud like this   i will stick to Hid


----------



## ShOrTbUs

wow that cola, how large of a plant did that come off of? or is that the whole plant lol?


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

DrFever said:
			
		

> Until  a LED panel  can produce a bud like this   i will stick to Hid


 
And you will keep droppin $150 to replace each bulb for however many lights your running every 6 to 12 months...   :holysheep:


----------



## Roddy

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> And you will keep droppin $150 to replace each bulb for however many lights your running every 6 to 12 months...   :holysheep:



Now come on, most of us don't pay NEARLY that much for a bulb...... :holysheep: 

Personally, I too will continue to pay for better bulbs, the better buds justify it.


----------



## WeedHopper

Ill pay 150.00 for freaken Buds like that,,, anyday.


----------



## dman1234

30 dollar hps bulbs can and will produce monster buds. imo


----------



## DrFever

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> And you will keep droppin $150 to replace each bulb for however many lights your running every 6 to 12 months...   :holysheep:




You know i haven't replaced a bulb in 3 years   the life expectancy on 1 k bulb is what  12,000 hrs ????? +  if you do the math  1266 hrs on a bulb  for one grow  =    2.5 pounds   1 k grown     x 10 grows  ???  bulb life expectancy  
which  yields me  25 pounds for that bulbs life   if you think a person would be worried about  meesly   150 bucks for a bulb  hahahaha  ok then your cheap

also  cost wise  1 k averages under 40.00 a month   1k set up    400.00 

so  3 months for a grow  120
  1k light                      400
plant food                      60
exhaust fan                  300    
 =                             _____
                                 880.00

yield   2.5 pounds   @ 3400 a pound  value 
      gross   8500.00

minus  your intial  880  running costs      7620.00  in your pocket  cha ching 

LED  cost  600 + 
Electrical      60
plant food   60
fresh air fan  100.00 
=                820  initial costs 

Yields   were talking a few oz if your lucky 

Veg times   double  to compare to a hid  growth speed 

final results  you going into the hole  as your few 0z   don't even cover initial  purchase and operating costs 
 Shall i say more


----------



## Locked

DrFever said:
			
		

> Yields   were talking a few oz if your lucky
> 
> Veg times   double  to compare to a hid  growth speed
> 
> final results  you going into the hole  as your few 0z   don't even cover initial  purchase and operating costs
> Shall i say more




3 years without changing the bulb?  

Your math and pessimistic views on LED's dont hold water with me...kinda reminds me of Romney's math.
Veg times are not doulble that of HID lighting....and writing off all LED grows for " a few ounces" is ridiculous.


----------



## DrFever

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> 3 years without changing the bulb?
> 
> Your math and pessimistic views on LED's dont hold water with me...kinda reminds me of Romney's math.
> Veg times are not doulble that of HID lighting....and writing off all LED grows for " a few ounces" is ridiculous.


 that is correct  i only  do  4 grows a year  5 weeks veg under 1 k    630 hrs on bulb for veg  and  504 hrs @ 12 /12  giving me  1134  total hrs  for a grow    flower  2 k    5 x 8  scrog  my previous   grow   i yielded    4.75 pounds dry  2 k   5 plants 
 bottom line  yield   my current grow   is 5 x 15   scrog   3 k   1800ppm co2 enriched   12 plants  which will yield me  7 - 8 pounds dry on day 1 of flower presently   
would love to see a   5 week Veg LED i will put money it won't compare to one of my trees @ 5 weeks    veg  here is one plant pic   like i said would love to see a  LED @ 5 weeks  veg   5 weeks ago it was 3 "  cutting  1 1/4 pound dry per plant isn't to bad yea think


----------



## DrFever

i am curious  how much LED would you need  to cover a 5 x 10 scrog table veg  5 plants to achieve 4.75 pounds  and how much would it cost   for the set up ????


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

While a HPS bulb will last that long, they lose lumens over time.  I like to change out my bulb at least every year because of this.  I want to make sure I get the best for my money.  A bulb not operating at peak will cost you money and yield.

Great looking buds, however!


----------



## Growdude

DrFever said:
			
		

> i am curious how much LED would you need to cover a 5 x 10 scrog table veg 5 plants to achieve 4.75 pounds and how much would it cost for the set up ????


 
What was said to me in this thread was that you would need 2000 watts of acctual power usage of LED, the same as what you used.

Now if that is what is needed I really dont see any benefit to LED.
Cost of bulbs... what a joke $25.00 for a 1000 watt HPS at 1000bulbs.
I gotta enough dope in the carpet for that.

Yea nice buds Dr.


----------



## Old_SSSC_Guy

I know its mostly subjective, but I have seen a definite improvement in volume from replacing 1+ yr old HPS lamps.  

I use an ancient scientific method to know when to change lamps: when it just doesn't look as bright as it used to.  

But I do wish they had hour meters on ballasts, like any decent engine.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching

DrFever said:
			
		

> that is correct  i only  do  4 grows a year  5 weeks veg under 1 k    630 hrs on bulb for veg  and  504 hrs @ 12 /12  giving me  1134  total hrs  for a grow    flower  2 k    5 x 8  scrog  my previous   grow   i yielded    4.75 pounds dry  2 k   5 plants
> bottom line  yield   my current grow   is 5 x 15   scrog   3 k   1800ppm co2 enriched   12 plants  which will yield me  7 - 8 pounds dry on day 1 of flower presently
> would love to see a   5 week Veg LED i will put money it won't compare to one of my trees @ 5 weeks    veg  here is one plant pic   like i said would love to see a  LED @ 5 weeks  veg   5 weeks ago it was 3 "  cutting  1 1/4 pound dry per plant isn't to bad yea think


 
Another Dr here to try and flex his muscles....


----------



## DrFever

Old_SSSC_Guy said:
			
		

> I know its mostly subjective, but I have seen a definite improvement in volume from replacing 1+ yr old HPS lamps.
> 
> I use an ancient scientific method to know when to change lamps: when it just doesn't look as bright as it used to.
> 
> But I do wish they had hour meters on ballasts, like any decent engine.



I have allot of 1k  bulbs  new and some with hrs  i normally  change them out around  8000 hrs    everytime i run a bulb  for veg  once done i mark on  box how many hrs on it  to keep  a record of it  seems to work rather well  for record keeping


----------



## Locked

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> Another Dr here to try and flex his muscles....




Lol...:yeahthat:

I know at this point in time HPS will out perform current LED technology, but don't come off like some arrogant prick and try and just dismiss the gains the technology has made, while making exaggerated claims  like LED's need twice the veg length as HPS. Flowering has been were LED's have struggled, not in veg. We were trying to have a LED thread that clears up the confusion on where exactly LED technology is at this point. PJ was nice enough to stop by and share some of his knowledge on the subject. Everyone always bitches about wanting pics of a documented LED grow and PJ has done quite a few. He is not trying to sell anything to anyone just letting us share in what he has learned on the subject.  I could see if someone was spamming but that's not the case here. Dr your buds look great, nice job. I know first hand just how good a job a HPS does at turning out the big fat dense dank buds. Just asking we keep it civil and not lose a chance at having a thread with some good info in it. jmo


----------



## P Jammers

And I like big budz too.







:hubba:


----------



## Roddy

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Lol...:yeahthat:
> 
> I know at this point in time HPS will out perform current LED technology, but don't come off like some arrogant prick and try and just dismiss the gains the technology has made, while making exaggerated claims  like LED's need twice the veg length as HPS. Flowering has been were LED's have struggled, not in veg. We were trying to have a LED thread that clears up the confusion on where exactly LED technology is at this point. PJ was nice enough to stop by and share some of his knowledge on the subject. Everyone always bitches about wanting pics of a documented LED grow and PJ has done quite a few. He is not trying to sell anything to anyone just letting us share in what he has learned on the subject.  I could see if someone was spamming but that's not the case here. Dr your buds look great, nice job. I know first hand just how good a job a HPS does at turning out the big fat dense dank buds. Just asking we keep it civil and not lose a chance at having a thread with some good info in it. jmo



I agree and appreciate all productive input from both "sides"!


----------



## Roddy

*exaggerated claims like LED's need twice the veg length as HPS*

While maybe not twice the time, I am betting there needs to be a longer veg time for LED's since you need a wider plant which would take some stressing which tends to lengthen veg time? I could be wrong and yes, most of us do stress our plants in some form or another anyway. A shorter, wider gal takes longer to bush out imhe...


----------



## P Jammers

Roddy said:
			
		

> *exaggerated claims like LED's need twice the veg length as HPS*
> 
> While maybe not twice the time, I am betting there needs to be a longer veg time for LED's since you need a wider plant which would take some stressing which tends to lengthen veg time? I could be wrong and yes, most of us do stress our plants in some form or another anyway. A shorter, wider gal takes longer to bush out imhe...



I see no difference from T5 to LED other than LED's create a little tighter structure, but in terms of time, there's zero difference. 

As far as width, it just depends on the strain you're running, but there is no need to do anything different than any other lighting. Creating shorter plants happens naturally.


----------



## DrFever

^^^^ i agree   CFL will out perform a LED     hey  here is a idea    anyone remember them lite brights ????   hahahaha   someone should see if them lite bright will make a plant grow 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huat89z2WrA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrrj-6Ep9Ds


----------



## P Jammers

DrFever said:
			
		

> ^^^^ i agree   CFL will out perform a LED     hey  here is a idea    anyone remember them lite brights ????   hahahaha   someone should see if them lite bright will make a plant grow
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huat89z2WrA
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrrj-6Ep9Ds


You put up a video of some Hack using a 15 watt LED panel, and your convinced huh?

Great comparison.

Where is that dog gone ignore button?


----------



## niteshft

It's a shame that when someone tries to inform other members or just other growers in general, the advances in LED techknowledgy....taking the plunge and purchasing the LEDs and then taking their time to share their results in real time so others may benefit, there are those that can't help but post in the threads, nonsense and misleading information. It's no wonder that the original poster drops the thread and moves on. It's the biggest reason why I don't post here very often any more. What's the sense in posting in a thread that is going to be muddled up with nonsense from individuals that don't have a clue what they are talking about and just want to rant. It's a shame that the mods don't do anything about it and, in fact, participate in the nonsense as well, at times. 

  I've had and been sitting on information for a few days because I just lost interest in posting here but will give it another shot. I believe any input to this thread should be from individuals that have had "actual experience" with LEDs and what they have to say may benefit others. Negative input from those that don't have any actual experience or knowledge on the subject need not post, as it just adds to the confusion of others that are looking for information. 

 Now that I've gotten that off my chest, here is what has happened since last time I posted:

  I had plans to disable a couple of the sections of my LED fixtures to lower the total wattage as my goal was to reduce costs but I had too, many projects going and didn't get to it. I've since noticed something that I should've picked up on earlier that has made me drop everything and get it done. The lights have a transformer for each pair and I disabled the middle pair of lights.





  I noticed during the switch from 1000w HPS to LEDs that the plants that were already in the flower room started bleaching. The real problem came from newly introduced plants from the veg room that were growing under T-5s. The first new plant (on left) had just been re-potted and in the flower room the leaves curled and dried up. I first thought it was because it had just been re-potted. The next plant (on right) to go in had been re-potted for 2-3 weeks before it went in but the same thing happened. It was then that I realized it was the intensity of the LEDs that was causing it. The bleaching should've given me a clue that this was going to happen but I guess I was just too, busy to put 2+2 together.


 I couldn't get the second pic to load.

 It looks as tho I may need to go back to HIDs for veg or get some vegging LEDs to replace the T-5s. I don't care much for the T-5s anyway as I always have plants in various stages in veg and the T-5 doesn't work well in that scenario. I may get 3 Apollo-4s to replace the T-5 and when/if I do I may re-enable the center lights. I'll wait and see how they do with just the four first, I am trying to save costs in the first place while being able to produce quality buds.

 Stay tuned, if the bull can be kept to a minimum I'll continue to post my results.


----------



## Locked

Thanks for sharing niteshft....


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

Niteshift--why does the T5 not work well for you?  I always have plants in different stages of growth and simply raise of lower the plants to keep an  even canopy.  I actually find it easier to raise and lower my plants than I do my lights.  

What wattage are the Apollos you are contemplating buying?  How many watts are you running with T5s now?  Curious if you are going to be switching watt for watt?


----------



## Locked

This is what my veg tent running an HO T5 looks like. I have stuffed stacked all over to keep as even a canopy as I can.







Still think the HO T5's were my best investment so far. jmo


----------



## Roddy

P Jammers said:
			
		

> I see no difference from T5 to LED other than LED's create a little tighter structure, but in terms of time, there's zero difference.
> 
> As far as width, it just depends on the strain you're running, but there is no need to do anything different than any other lighting. Creating shorter plants happens naturally.



I've grown several gals and not one has naturally made herself a bush.....


----------



## Locked

Roddy said:
			
		

> I've grown several gals and not one has naturally made herself a bush.....




I have two doing it right now under HO T5's....I didn't doing any training to them. Just kept the T5's right on them.


----------



## Roddy

Did you try backing the LED's off when first introducing the gals, Niteshift? Keep em a bit higher and slowly lower like some of us do with HPS?


----------



## Locked

Here is the Albert Walker and the Golden Goat. Both have been vegging under HO T5's in a 2x4x5 tent. GH 3 part and dolomite lime in the soil are the only nutrients I am using. The Goat is insanely wide now. A bush for sure.


----------



## DrFever

I never came to this thread to start anything  all i said is LED is weak    many led users  add hid in flowering phase , Yes they will grow   but comparing  the grow rates   would be like comparing grow rate from a 250 watt hid to a 1000 watt hid 

Everyone mentions  led technology lets be honest here  led has bin around allot longer then most may think 
Nick Holonyak invented LED (light-emitting diode) light bulbs in 1962 when he worked for General Electric. The original model produced red light
So in 50 years  there hasn't bin much leaps and bounds  and pretty sure in the next 50 years there probably won't be either except  price tags on them 
compared to other  sources of indoor  grow lights. 
Now with that being said   YES i don't grow with LED but ??? just got off the phone with a friend that does  he mentioned to me  that many companies are over rating there products like saying there 190 watt UFO  when in reality  there only putting out  165 watts  again makes me wonder what are we really  buying here 
which brings me to my conclusion   if your happy growing with led  paying for pricey products  then all the power to you  i personally will keep doing what i am doing and life will go on  


Keep it green  Cheeers doc


----------



## Growdude

IMO that plant does not look to have a light burn, notice how low it goes down on the plant.
Looks more like a P deficency, yellowing from the outside edges in with leaf twist.


----------



## niteshft

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Niteshift--why does the T5 not work well for you?  I always have plants in different stages of growth and simply raise of lower the plants to keep an  even canopy.  I actually find it easier to raise and lower my plants than I do my lights.
> 
> What wattage are the Apollos you are contemplating buying?  How many watts are you running with T5s now?  Curious if you are going to be switching watt for watt?


 
Hi HG, I always seem to have alot of projects going at the same time and want to get away from anything time coinsuming, like looking for something that will prop up my plants to even out the canopy. I didn't have to do it much with the MH because of it's penetrating power.

 Leds, (some), also have penetrating power unlike some would want you to believe and I feel it would do the job. LED companys have been cheating customers so I understand where some believe the way they do but the lights I have will burn your plants if they are too close....and I mean less than 18 inches not like what you can get away with using T-5s. This even showed when I switched out my HSP for LEDs, the LEDs were bleaching the leaves 18 inches away and I had to pull them up for a while.

I have a 4 foot, 8 bulb T-5 at the moment. I'm thinking 2 Apollo 4s will relplace that and add another to fill out another corner. I will say about the Apollo is thier lights could be spaced further apart, probably 6 inches. Oh, I've changed my veg room for a 56" X 56" tent.


----------



## niteshft

Roddy said:
			
		

> Did you try backing the LED's off when first introducing the gals, Niteshift? Keep em a bit higher and slowly lower like some of us do with HPS?


 
Yeah, the lights next to it would be too close as well and I can't move a light away from other plants. I chose the LEDs with 120 degree lens so they spread over to the next plant and overlap the other light pattern.


----------



## niteshft

DrFever said:
			
		

> *I never came to this thread to start anything  all i said is LED is weak    *
> 
> Everyone mentions  led technology lets be honest here  led has bin around allot longer then most may think
> Nick Holonyak invented LED (light-emitting diode) light bulbs in 1962 when he worked for General Electric. The original model produced red light
> So in 50 years  there hasn't bin much leaps and bounds  and pretty sure in the next 50 years there probably won't be either except  price tags on them
> compared to other  sources of indoor  grow lights.
> *Now with that being said   YES i don't grow with LED* but ??? just got off the phone with a friend that does  he mentioned to me  that many companies are over rating there products like saying there 190 watt UFO  when in reality  there only putting out  165 watts  again makes me wonder what are we really  buying here
> which brings me to my conclusion   if your happy growing with led  paying for pricey products  then all the power to you  i personally will keep doing what i am doing and life will go on
> 
> 
> Keep it green  Cheeers doc


 
Enough said.


----------



## niteshft

Growdude said:
			
		

> IMO that plant does not look to have a light burn, notice how low it goes down on the plant.
> Looks more like a P deficency, yellowing from the outside edges in with leaf twist.


 
 I know, the pic isn't the best but no, the damage is primarily limited to the top canopy, the leaves that have been shaded are not effected at all. I'll try and reload the second pic, the one that had benn re-potted for 2-3 weeks. I think it's a better shot and shows the undamaged leaves below the top canopy.

 Nope sorry, I get a message that my limit has been reached in this forum for this file type.

Anyway, it is burn....remember, I got bleaching from them when switching out from the 1000w HPS. I'm not kiddin, these lights are powerfull. These plants are cuts of plants I have run at least 4-5 times and I have them dialed in. I have harvested one that has spent 3/4 of it's life under the LEDs and it came out better than any of it's previous run. It is most definately not a deficiency.


----------



## WeedHopper

Untill LED Evolve to replace HPS or T5s,,I will stick to what gives me the biggest best buds for the money. That is T5 for vegg and HPS for flower. I would love to replace all this with LED when they are ready to replace the lumens per watt.
As soon as the price comes down I am gonna replace my CFL's (household) with LED's.


----------



## my my

niteshft
Thanks for sharing Brother..
Yours looks Beautiful compaired to mine...

here is my summary i posted elsewhere... kind of a copy and paste...



Happy Halloween to you all... 
Well today i went ahead and took the LED girl down... she looked rough,, very rough,, but she is very sticky.. Stickiest of the 3 i have harvested the last week... 
This girl was a clone i took off #1.. she was even in flower when i took this cut that finished under the LED lights.
The LED's will be put up for winter tho, as i need the heat of the HID in the winter.
I had the light too close to this girl when i started out.. (thinking like T-5's) but that is not the case IMO with LED's.
So when i fire them back up next spring, i will indeed have the lights farther away from what ever i am flowering at the time.
Maybe after a few more trys with the LEDS i will find my groove for that kind of lighting.
will be interested in if the quality of the bud will be noticeable better or not?
wasn't much trim either.. only took me 1 1/2 hours for this girl today.
BTW, she was 1 day short of 10 weeks.. i had taken her Mom @ 12 weeks under the 600 HID..


----------



## Locked

You are not kidding when you say she looks rough. lol. She don't have to look like a Rock Star so long as she smokes like one. Enjoy the smoke.


----------



## my my

Should have taken her a week ago Hammy, but was busy with the 1K girl, and then i had to harvest the outdoor girl before Sandy hits...
we have already been wet for a day now, didnt want to be trimming cold wet bud. SO i left the LED girl untill last..
I had the lights to close for sure, is just one of the mistakes i made...
have you seen my girls Hammy, they always look like Crap,, but once trimmed up, the bud always smokes good...


----------



## WeedHopper

No,,she would look rough if she was bricked like that mexican crap. Looks nice to me.


----------



## P Jammers

Growdude said:
			
		

> IMO that plant does not look to have a light burn, notice how low it goes down on the plant.
> Looks more like a P deficency, yellowing from the outside edges in with leaf twist.


I would agree with that assessment. I also think that is why the plant burning is taking place.

NS, if you are using the same nutes you did b 4 you need to cut them back for sure. I would recommend you being at least 2 feet up from the plant minimum, or you will bleach them.

I also find the PH needs to be just a tad higher then what you had with HPS.

If you have a height limit, don't even consider running the LED veg lights. Plants will bleach out if you are any closer than 2 feet above. 

For the question asked "how many watts are the Apollo 4's", they are rated at 134 watts, however produce the useable light of about a 300 watt HPS. Even with no heat they can fry some plants if you are not careful.

My MY, same thing. Back that food off bro. Cut close to 1/3rd from you old recipe with HPS and see if that does not get your plants looking a lot better.


----------



## my my

Thanks PJ will do.
I have been running this girl at around 700-800 ppm.. 
The lights were way closer for 2 weeks then they should have been.
with HPS i ran her mom and sister from 750-1050 ppm...
Will do better next time i am sure.
I am still very happy with the densety of the buds..much tighter then T-5.
i would compare them to the hps light.
IMO, i got just as much, maybe more then if i grew this girl in the dirt..
(no offense to our dirt brothers and sisters)


----------



## Roddy

*Leds, (some), also have penetrating power unlike some would want you to believe*

I'd have to read back but I think you'd be the first to say this (in this thread).

*Yeah, the lights next to it would be too close as well and I can't move a light away from other plants. I chose the LEDs with 120 degree lens so they spread over to the next plant and overlap the other light pattern.*

Could you make the canopy even and then bring the light to the plants?


*Enough said.*

No, I don't think so...are you gonna deny what most others here have admitted (LED's ARE weak). Admittedly, I have not used LED's, but I have read this whole thread a few times and believe weakness is why shorter plants are preferred? I base this on what I've read in this thread as I'm sure others who haven't used can?


----------



## Roddy

my my said:
			
		

> Should have taken her a week ago Hammy, but was busy with the 1K girl, and *then i had to harvest the outdoor girl before Sandy hits*...
> we have already been wet for a day now, didnt want to be trimming cold wet bud. SO i left the LED girl untill last..
> I had the lights to close for sure, is just one of the mistakes i made...
> have you seen my girls Hammy, they always look like Crap,, but once trimmed up, the bud always smokes good...



Be safe, my friend, that storm is said to be a monster in the making!


----------



## P Jammers

Roddy said:
			
		

> Admittedly, I have not used LED's, but I have read this whole thread a few times and believe weakness is why shorter plants are preferred?



Maybe you missed the part where I clearly stated that one can yield on a 2 foot plant what it takes plants under HPS to yield on a four foot plant?

Or maybe you missed that 3 foot plant that went 4 zips plus I posted last night?

Selective reading perhaps?

This place will never change. You ask for facts then ignore them.

You guys have fun.

My My, Niteshft, if you have any questions PM me. I'll be checking in from time to time like I always do for some comic relief.


----------



## pcduck

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> You obviously didnt read the thread like you said...   Nobody using LED has even mentioned running SOG style in this thread...?     they are running plants...  look at the pictures...  read the posts....





			
				niteshif said:
			
		

> I'm going to have to work on changing my grow methods to SOG as I  believe these lights will really shine with that method. (No pun  intended) LOL


 from http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showpost.php?p=799540&postcount=139

I guess someone obviously didn't


----------



## pcduck

pj said:
			
		

> Selective reading perhaps?



Or selective memory on your part



			
				pj said:
			
		

> This place will never change. You ask for facts then ignore them.





			
				TSB said:
			
		

> I have a question. Do LED's have the same light penetration strength as HPS?





			
				mymy said:
			
		

> No





			
				pj said:
			
		

> Well here is a loaded question, yes?....A better question would be and what it boils down to is, can you get the  same yield or better with LED's, and can the flavor and quality be  improved.
> 
> The answer to that question is with out a doubt, yes....Easily.





			
				mymy said:
			
		

> PJ says that while quantity suffers, Quality goes up!






			
				pj said:
			
		

> If you used 1000 watts in HID, its the same wattage for LED's. The difference is about Half the cost to run them.





			
				pj said:
			
		

> What about the guy who runs a small tent who wants to grow a few plants? Does that thinking make any sense then?





			
				pj said:
			
		

> If you have a height limit, don't even consider running the LED veg  lights. Plants will bleach out if you are any closer than 2 feet above.





			
				pj said:
			
		

> I will say that the days of a plant stretching are GONE.





			
				niteshift said:
			
		

> What's the sense in posting in a thread that is going to be muddled up  with nonsense from individuals that don't have a clue what they are  talking about and just want to rant.



I hear ya niteshift


----------



## Roddy

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Maybe you missed the part where I clearly stated that one can yield on a 2 foot plant what it takes plants under HPS to yield on a four foot plant?
> 
> Or maybe you missed that 3 foot plant that went 4 zips plus I posted last night?
> 
> Selective reading perhaps?
> 
> This place will never change. You ask for facts then ignore them.
> 
> You guys have fun.
> 
> My My, Niteshft, if you have any questions PM me. I'll be checking in from time to time like I always do for some comic relief.



Didn't miss any, I missed where anyone could explain that you could veg a gal to 2' and get a 4' yield, though....or at least any that really made sense. Nothing selective, just no info given to validate the experience.  Yep, we want facts....backed up with proof....not just telling me it can happen and tell me a 2' will produce what a 4' will....without more training and work.

I'm no expert at growing, but my last 4' gal produced 6.5 "zips", the one before that was 6 "zips"....4 zips on a 3' isn't a big thing...to me? We're talking indoor here, I'm not mixing in the greenhouse gals.

Duck posted a bit of the "confusion" some of us seem to be seeing, talk about muddied.

Guys, don't go away mad, just stop trying to prove the lights and let the info do the talking. As I've said before, I am trying to find good info on these hoping tech will change...and it sounds like it is, really slowly.

You see, the thing is, threads like this promise the world and new growers might just see this as the way to go. Someone stated this lighting to be great for even newbies, then another stated the opposite when questioned on it. If I'm this confused, imagine what a newb grower must wonder. I praise all that take the bold step, but please, let the info do the talking.


----------



## niteshft

P Jammers said:
			
		

> I would agree with that assessment. I also think that is why the plant burning is taking place.


 
  You surprise me PJ, I never thought you would be so bold as to make such a defining position on the basis of a picture and a bad one at that. 

  No, it is not a deficiency, if it were it would continue untill I made changes to fix it which I did not. The damage is in the upper canopy only, the lower leaves, having been shaded, are unaffected. If it was a deficiency it would eventually affect the whole plant. Also, the process has stopped now that the plant has gotten adjusted to the lights.


----------



## Roddy

I guess my biggest question at this point is how can a light be too powerful to put down as close as an HPS (which I can keep 1'-18" away without burn) yet not have the throw to penetrate to the bottom of more than a 2' plant.


----------



## niteshft

I'm a very busy person and have alot more on my plate than just growing my mmj. I can't take the time to go over these posts and try to correct misleading posts, most of which are deliberately taken out of context and done to start an argument, IMO.

  I thought I would post my progress so everyone could see what is going on with the newer LEDs so others could make an informed decision. Unfortunately there are members that love to have a pissing contest and fill the thread with nothing but garbage and muddle the thread, making it useless, imo. 

  MP was the first mmj forum I belonged to and will it always have a place in my heart but I think it's time I finally move on from this thread. Post #293 is the straw that finally broke my back. That was a huge effort on pcduck's part, that has no value at all and I don't have the time or interest to waste it if I did.

 I had migrated away from here for simular reasons but kept in touch in hopes that the site would mature but I guess that isn't going to happen any time soon. There are a lot of respectable and talented members here that I could still learn from and many friends that I will miss, so I will linger in the background and may occasionally post where I might be of assistance but this thread is done as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Roddy

*MP was the first mmj forum I belonged to and will it always have a place in my heart but I think it's time I finally move on from this thread. Post #293 is the straw that finally broke my back.*

IC....duck points out all the inconsistencies and you say you can't go around correcting all the misinformation....mostly coming from a few LED users....you say his post has no value (except it does point out all the crap we're trying to sift through to determine what the truth of these lights are) and it appears you're now gonna stop trying to give info, what you say this thread is for.

No, I imagine you won't go back and try to answer to duck's post, the info given there is all over and conflicting...and coming from you guys yourselves.

*I thought I would post my progress so everyone could see what is going on with the newer LEDs so others could make an informed decision.* 

And as I've said a few times, much appreciated, but informed? With all the conflicting info, the opinions instead of facts and the prejudices from BOTH SIDES, how can you imagine anyone make any more an informed decision than before this thread? You guys aren't truly giving experiences, you're pumping up your opinions to make it sound better (IMHO). How about a side-by-side? Controlled grows set up to be the same except the lights in every aspect. I know, one won't tell much, so we need several grows to get real info. Sure, it'll take awhile and should be done by pro growers with nothing to gain from either side...just someone looking for fact.


----------



## pcduck

Well here we go again

Members ask questions, and get muddled answers.

LED's growers are given the opportunity to inform the masses and instead of that they go into degrading our forum and leave.:confused2:


Niteshift at least someone read the thread and understood what was being said and seen the inconsistency of the posts and took the time to bring it to light. There are many more inconsistency's  but I got tired of reading the drivel.  

I just guess no led grower is willing to take the reins and lead us to the promise land of growing with leds. When the questions get tough they take off. I really thought this could be the time that we get straight answers, from some knowledgeable growers, but I was wrong, they also ran when the questions got tough. I should have just figured they would, since they all do


----------



## dman1234

so lets ignore thousands of other threads and judge this place on a few that go wrong? this site is still one of the most mature sites on this subject on the net.
every place has its issues now and again.


----------



## Roddy

dman1234 said:
			
		

> so lets ignore thousands of other threads and judge this place on a few that go wrong? this site is still one of the most mature sites on this subject on the net.
> every place has its issues now and again.



I don't see anything going wrong in this thread except those who are trying to sing praises of LED's are getting upset when asked hard questions and confronted with (seemingly) misinformation or misleading statements. I've seen people who aren't users asked to butt out (some did come in only to stir, maybe, but I don't see much of it), how do you have a discussion with any value if you keep it one sided? Come on guys....

*How about a side-by-side? Controlled grows set up to be the same except the lights in every aspect. I know, one won't tell much, so we need several grows to get real info. Sure, it'll take awhile and should be done by pro growers with nothing to gain from either side...just someone looking for fact*.

Facts would be great.....


----------



## niteshft

pcduck said:
			
		

> I have nothing to prove p.jammers.
> 
> Just be sure to hide the hps in your led grow pics:aok:


 
  Like I said, that post was the straw but this is the one that really started it. What an a**wipe thing to say. The most mature mmj website there is, eh? Sorry, but I just don't buy it nor anything else you have to say if you stand up for someone like that.

  And as for side by side grows??? I've grown the same plants/cuttings under HPS so I already know what they do. If you can't trust an individual here and take his/her word then why come here in the first place? Sorry, but posters like pcduck has ruined this thread as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## pcduck

*Niteshift* sorta looks like you are grasping at straws to explain why you are leaving. Instead of facing the truth 

Most people gain my trust by posting and earning my respect/trust as a grower. I am not going give any respect/trust to a grower that acts the way pj/mymy has:aok: 

I have not seen any where in this thread where a led grower has posted a link or anything backing up their claims. Besides telling us to go to other web site forums and read some other growers' grow journal and opinions. The one reliable link that was posted was about taste which is worthless as taste is an opinion of the taster.

niteshift if you trust everything written or shown on the internet....I just don't know what to say but good luck and stay safe.


----------



## my my

Thanks Roddy,
We have stocked up on supplies just in case the power goes out...

niteshft,
Ever Pea in the wind???
That is basically what you are doing my friend..  (no offense to ya)

As Duck will never open his mind to see other ways to grow...
And that is fine... I am not here to sell lights, i came to share my 1st attempt at using LED's... Nothing more, nothing less.
I was under the impression that the LED's didnt have the penatration power that HPS has.. 
But i see PJ thinks differently..
I can say with out a doubt, there was NO Popcorn bud at all on my little LED girl..
And when ever i checked on her (daily) I had to wear sunglasses....  
Never have had to wear them with the 600 or 1000 HPS...
Ya'all have a Great Day!-)


----------



## pcduck

mymy said:
			
		

> As Duck will never open his mind to see other ways to grow...



My mind is wide open:laugh: I try new growing techniques all the time that work. But the folks that are pushing these LEDS have shown me no reason to switch.


----------



## WeedHopper

I guess we will all just have to learn to Agree, to Disagree.


----------



## Locked

All I see is the exact reason quite a few peeps don't bother posting here anymore. I sure as hell wouldn't waste my time doing a side by side with some of the crap I have read in this thread. Really is sad.


----------



## Roddy

Proving something new is often hard and met with hard criticism, the tough and faithful go all out to make their case...LED lighting no different, certainly. The only way to shut up the opposition is to produce facts which at this point doesn't seem possible without a side by study.

If not by people in this thread, maybe some day....


----------



## Rosebud

Roddy said:
			
		

> Proving something new is often hard and met with hard criticism, the tough and faithful go all out to make their case...LED lighting no different, certainly. *The only way to shut up the opposition is to produce facts which at this point doesn't seem possible without a side by study*.
> 
> If not by people in this thread, maybe some day....




I don't see them as opposition that need to be shut up.


----------



## Roddy

Opposition...those not in agreement with the lighting in question. Truly, both "sides" disagree or oppose one another's views. It's not a slam on anyone, just an easy way to differentiate one side form the other.

"Shut up"....to stop the argument, to prove your case and lay to rest any doubts. Again, not being rude nor slamming, just easy way to say this and I thought all would understand.

In this case, IMHO, there is opposition and there would be a simple way to "shut up" the doubters.


----------



## niteshft

Roddy said:
			
		

> Proving something new is often hard and met with hard criticism, the tough and faithful go all out to make their case...LED lighting no different, certainly. The only way to shut up the opposition is to produce facts which at this point doesn't seem possible without a side by study.
> 
> If not by people in this thread, maybe some day....


 
  I didn't come here to "prove" anything but merely to share what I was doing for those that might be interested in LEDs. I was invited by a member that new I had recently purchased some and had been running them for almost 2 months. I was reluctant because of past expereances here simular to what is happening in this thread. 

  As far as side-by-side studies go, that's fine when there isn't anything to compare to but I have run these strains before and are even the same cut, so I do have something to compare to and a side-by-side study isn't nessassary. If you can't trust a fellow member maybe you should build yourself another flower room so you can do a study yourself, I don't have the need, room or money to do so.

  As I see it, we are all here for the same reason, to share knowledge of all aspects of mmj and that is the reason for this site. Unfortunately, with 310 posts in this thread the majority is nothing but banter back and forth, making for a difficult read for those looking for usefull information. That is the reason I have decided to stop adding info to this thread, it just seemed to me to be a waste of my time and this time of year I'm always very busy and my time is at a premium.

  It's in my nature to help where I can and I'm willing to post in another thread on this subject but it would have to have restrictions if that's possible and if the mods are capable/willing to set it up. First and foremost, the thread is only open to input from those that are actually running LEDs by permission. By permission I mean that a mod would have to grant access for an individual to post in that particular thread. I know other forums have that disgression but I'm not sure if this one has that capability or not. It may take a few days for an individual to gain access, dependant on how busy the mod is, but it would be a one time event and access will continue untill it has been canceled. The thread will showcase actual grows with details of what individuals have expereanced.

  It's a different approach to how posts are normally done but in this case I think it's nessassary in order to have a thread on this subject here. We all know how much eroneous info there is out there on LEDs, wouldn't it be nice to have a place to go with info that can be trusted and easy to read?


----------



## Roddy

*As far as side-by-side studies go, that's fine when there isn't anything to compare to but I have run these strains before and are even the same cut, so I do have something to compare to and a side-by-side study isn't nessassary. If you can't trust a fellow member maybe you should build yourself another flower room so you can do a study yourself, I don't have the need, room or money to do so.*

No disrespect, my friend, but seriously, if I told you something you have no way to verify, would you take my word on it? Truly? You can tell us the info, without proof, most here aren't gonna listen. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot... I mean, you're asking us to have faith and follow on what could be very costly.

*As I see it, we are all here for the same reason, to share knowledge of all aspects of mmj and that is the reason for this site. Unfortunately, with 310 posts in this thread the majority is nothing but banter back and forth, making for a difficult read for those looking for usefull information. That is the reason I have decided to stop adding info to this thread, it just seemed to me to be a waste of my time and this time of year I'm always very busy and my time is at a premium.*

I've seen people embellish to build themselves in others eyes here before, not all here really care about others and just want to show off....imho. Most here ARE here for sharing and learning, some spam as well...

Useful info that is full of misinformation as well. It's hard to tell what's what with some saying one thing, others the total opposite...coming from the LED group themselves. That is a lot of why you see the "banter", even those using seem to conflict in thought! Very confusing leading to harder questions which seems to have scared off everyone backing the LED's....and yes, more people doubting means more negative responses.

*It's in my nature to help where I can and I'm willing to post in another thread on this subject but it would have to have restrictions if that's possible and if the mods are capable/willing to set it up. First and foremost, the thread is only open to input from those that are actually running LEDs by permission. By permission I mean that a mod would have to grant access for an individual to post in that particular thread.*

Lets see, you'd liek ONLY those using LED to post, no questions, no interaction, just you guys telling us what we should believe? Come on, that's crazy and downright misleading. I can see nothing but misinformation persisting (since it's already happening) and no one learning a thing. No, this is a forums for discussion, sharing and learning, not someplace like a few countries that only allow what they want you to hear.

You say you think it necessary, I call it an insult to the readers.


----------



## Roddy

Maybe it's just me, but if I believed something and truly thought I could change minds, a little banter, some negatives and some rudeness would push me to PROVE my case....not shut me up. I'd be posting all the pics, all the info, I'd run as many side by's as wanted....

But, I hate to be told I'm wrong when I feel differently....maybe that's just me, though.


----------



## Roddy

And Nite, you have the equipment to do the tests, not me. If you'd like to send me the LED's, I'd be MORE than happy to do the side by's.  Sorry, I'll not be spending the money to find out the info posted here is right...or wrong.


----------



## Roddy

*I was invited by a member that new I had recently purchased some and had been running them for almost 2 months*

Now, I'll ask a question here and hope to hear back....2 months? How many grows?

Again, no disrespect, but my first gal produced 10.5 oz on a very potent and sticky Kandy Kush. This is something I've not repeated to date (2 years, maybe hundreds of gals).


----------



## WeedHopper

I have seen LED grows many times on this forum and others,, and I was not impressed with the money and time they spent,, and the harvest it produced. I want the best bang for my dollar. T5s for Vegg and HPS for flower.
 I have used T5s from start to finish before and got better results then what I seen with LEDS. Someday I do believe that they will get it down to an art with LEDS maybe,,but they are nowhere near ready to replace HPS.
The way I see it,,if yur gonna spend the TIME and TLC it takes to grow weed,,why not get the best harvest possible for yur time and money.


----------



## niteshft

You've just proved my point Roddy......not just 1 but 4 posts and so the banter continues.......

 Fine, I'll keep my postings elsewhere where it's appreciated. This is the only site I've posted where the thread turns into a pissing contest. I have better things to do then to waste my time with those that want to play games or boost their ego. It's a shame that everybody looses because of a few and WeedHopper, I've (almost) never heard such crap.

  To my friends, I hope to see you around some time. Until then, stay safe.

Bye bye....


----------



## 7greeneyes

:ciao: hope you come back soon bud. I've found online quibbling to be the same as comparing .....er...um...shoe sizes. It's pointless except for the fact that the original antagonistic poster achieved his goals. to sow discord and be a malcontent.

good job you (collective) jackenapes, I'm going back to RIU, they're alot more civilized over there....:rofl:


----------



## WeedHopper

Niteshft,,I never said nothing bad about or to anyone. What the hell is your problem. If ya dont like this forum,,fine,,but dont start doggen me Bro. What I said above is what I have seen,,nothing more ,,nothing less. Personally,,I could give a crap if ya ever come back or not. Thats your business.
And yes I can SHOW you my grows with T5s that produced buds the size of beer bottles,,THG and some others have seen these grows. So what part of what I said above is crap?


----------



## Growdude

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> I have seen LED grows many times on this forum and others,, and I was not impressed with the money and time they spent,, and the harvest it produced. I want the best bang for my dollar. T5s for Vegg and HPS for flower.
> I have used T5s from start to finish before and got better results then what I seen with LEDS. Someday I do believe that they will get it down to an art with LEDS maybe,,but they are nowhere near ready to replace HPS.
> The way I see it,,if yur gonna spend the TIME and TLC it takes to grow weed,,why not get the best harvest possible for yur time and money.


 
I have to agree none of the LED grows ive seen, including all linked to in this thread seem to compare to an equal amount of HPS.

While they are looking better they are using the same wattage or more than previous HPS grows.
This is 3-4 times the recomended wattge from the manufacturer.
Thats the false claim, not made by anyone here but the manufacturer.

There is no doubt they grow weed and have there place.


----------



## WeedHopper

I would love to have a light system such as LED replace HPS or T5s. If they can get them to produce enough penetration and lumens,,with less watts and heat then HPS and not cost an arm and leg,,Im all the way in. But that is not the case yet.HPS Lumens per watt and penatration cannot be touched by LED,,,, yet.


----------



## Roddy

niteshft said:
			
		

> You've just proved my point Roddy......not just 1 but 4 posts and so the banter continues.......
> 
> Fine, I'll keep my postings elsewhere where it's appreciated. This is the only site I've posted where the thread turns into a pissing contest. I have better things to do then to waste my time with those that want to play games or boost their ego. It's a shame that everybody looses because of a few and WeedHopper, I've (almost) never heard such crap.
> 
> To my friends, I hope to see you around some time. Until then, stay safe.
> 
> Bye bye....




My friend, you have 2 months experience and you have been asking for only EXPERIENCED LED growers to post...that alone is a joke. Get permission to post, will ya? :rofl:

Sorry. I do appreciate helpful posts....


----------



## Roddy

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> I would love to have a light system such as LED replace HPS or T5s. If they can get them to produce enough penetration and lumens,,with less watts and heat then HPS and not cost an arm and leg,,Im all the way in. But that is not the case yet.HPS Lumens per watt and penatration cannot be touched by LED,,,, yet.



Absolutely, this is an opinion I can stand behind, I myself have exactly the same sentiments.


----------



## Roddy

I have a hard time understanding is the 2' plant producing the same as 4' when some have admitted that T5's and LED's in veg are very similar. If this is the case and I am using T5's, I am still lost as to how 2' will match 4'.

And that's just one of the questions I'm left with after all this...


----------



## P Jammers

Roddy said:
			
		

> I have a hard time understanding is the 2' plant producing the same as 4' when some have admitted that T5's and LED's in veg are very similar. If this is the case and I am using T5's, I am still lost as to how 2' will match 4'.
> 
> And that's just one of the questions I'm left with after all this...


Because instead of this being the case with a lot of strains you get flowered with HPS.





You end up with branches like this with LED's




Pretty simple really, and already explained.

Yes plants grown, or as we call it vegged with T5's are very similar, LED's do provide a little more nodes, and closer spacing.

It's in the flowering process where the difference becomes apparent, and why you can yield the same, and at time even better with LED's on a shorter plant. In some cases this is not the case, but on average I would say most plants don't stretch much at all.

Hope that makes sense.
:icon_smile:


----------



## 7greeneyes

:clap:

nice mj dryin there....


----------



## P Jammers

And a few more examples


----------



## 7greeneyes

oooohhhh what kinds that last one with the purp tinge? She's a beaut!:hubba:


----------



## P Jammers

7greeneyes said:
			
		

> oooohhhh what kinds that last one with the purp tinge? She's a beaut!:hubba:


If you're talking the very bottom pic, that is my Bros Grimm C99 aka the Holy Grail. 

BTW, because I know my brother Hammy is quite respected around these parts, he can verify that each and every one of these are in my online journal at another site with full documentation on each strain.

JAAM, Nvthis, Aluminum Monster, and maybe a few more can also back it up for the ones who have their doubts.


----------



## Roddy

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Because instead of this being the case with a lot of strains you get flowered with HPS.
> 
> View attachment 197482
> 
> 
> You end up with branches like this with LED's
> 
> View attachment 197483
> 
> 
> Pretty simple really, and already explained.
> 
> Yes plants grown, or as we call it vegged with T5's are very similar, LED's do provide a little more nodes, and closer spacing.
> 
> It's in the flowering process where the difference becomes apparent, and why you can yield the same, and at time even better with LED's on a shorter plant. In some cases this is not the case, but on average I would say most plants don't stretch much at all.
> 
> Hope that makes sense.
> :icon_smile:




Those being two different strains and not sure if those are even cola buds on the skimps...so hard to really make any kind of comparison? I've had several strains look much like the "fuller" strain myself.

Not to be confrontational, but these are with rather weak and in serious need of replaced 1000HPS...








Like I said, my last few 4' gals produced 6 and 6.5 oz, seems it'd take a mighty big shorty to produce that?

Trust me PJ, I want to believe, I want cheaper electric bills and tastier nugs...maybe some day, LED's will do it!


----------



## P Jammers

And I am not trying to be confrontational either, but I do have to say that the pics you posted look ok, but are not quite a large.

They do look a lot better than the pics you were posting three years ago with the aluminum foil on the walls though. You may not remember me from back then, but I do remember you.


I've also watched your grows here quite some time, and know for sure that while those pics you posted look really good, they are not what you consistently produce. Pics don't lie right? We all have our heavy yielder's, and we have some that don't yield as well. I have posted pics of both.

Attached I am adding one of the pics above, the difference however is that I have added the 6" measurement on the door panel in the back ground. I'll agree sometimes having something in the background does help determine just how large something is. I don't drink Monster however, but I did stay at the Holiday Inn during the hurricane.

In other words, the main was as wide as a 2"x4".



TBH, I'm not sure what else to add. I originally came here to post up some results, and help other see that yes indeed there are some great results being made.

I am not trying to sell anyone anything. 

At this point one can either believe or not believe you can do as well or better with LED's over HID lighting. 

But don't kid yourself, LED's have arrived and in a big way. Just make sure you do your research an don't get taken by one of these companies that spouts crap, because there are a TON of them out there giving bad info.

This reminds me.

Growdude posted up some links of a site who "SELLS" the Apollo light and is making claims that they produce three times the output and said it was the manufactures website. Truth be told that, that was a company who is a re seller, and not the manufacturer just to keep the record straight

You've come a long way Roddy, but you have much to learn. Not something that can be done in three or even five short years. 

Ya'll stay safe, and be good.

If nothing else, maybe someone has learned a thing or two.


----------



## Roddy

*They do look a lot better than the pics you were posting three years ago with the aluminum foil on the walls though. You may not remember me from back then, but I do remember you.*

My friend, check the date I joined. I believe you have me mistaken for someone else? And, when did this become a question of MY growing skills instead of the ability of LED? :rofl:

As long as you're talking pics, lets go back to those pics before. Why did you post up pics of somewhat beefy gals for LED and bottom buds for the HPS? I posted up pics of gals that grew with bulbs that were over a year old, 2 of which (bukbs) are a little over 1.5 years +/-  (first ones I bought, just so you understand how long I've been growing), I replaced them shortly after those gals came out. Those buds were still thick and hefty even with weak lighting...and btw, that's something like 3 or 4 different gals' colas, all clones from a gal I had grown out before.

I told you from the start I have an open mind and am HOPING some day LED will do what some claim. You have already been shown all the conflicting info being posted...and then you post up pics of a sparse gal to represent HPS and a bushier gal for LED....more misleading info, can you see why there's doubt? I posted up pics of what can be done with HPS, bushy ones like yours were...much more indicative of what HPS can do than your representation, right? I invite ANYONE reading this to read any and all my journal so you can see many other examples....some in bad times and some in much better!  While you're at it, there's many better HPS growers here with many many more examples. 

The point I was trying to make with my pics is that T5/HPS produces bushy, thickly budded gals just like LED and as I've said, my last few produced fairly hefty amounts (and no, my friend, the ones in the pics I posted weren't one of them...but I do believe 2 were 5oz gals)...and my question still stands, how can a 2' gal produce 5oz-6oz or even more without some serious training. Showing me tight buds compared to a sparse bud doesn't explain that. The gals I've been playing around with of late are grown straight up from clone, topped and bent over, then left to their own to bulk up for a month or two (whatever it takes to get to around knee high), they stretch to around 4' on average. If you look close at my gals, you'll notice most of them of late are a main trunk bent in half with simple training, which then grow up crooked allowing the bottom branches to get up toward the light.

I guess this is why a side by would be the only way to prove the ability of LED.

I went back to my very first post in my journal and didn't see aluminum foil anywhere on the walls...I do remember once about 20 years ago when I was screwing around doing things I read in High Times, I had foil back then. I don't recall ever using it again but could be mistaken, post up a pic for laughs!


----------



## Growdude

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Because instead of this being the case with a lot of strains you get flowered with HPS.
> 
> View attachment 197482
> 
> 
> :icon_smile:


 
If this is how your buds turned out with HPS then there was something else wrong with your grow.


----------



## WeedHopper

:48: :yeahthat:


----------



## Roddy

*This post right here shows what a true fuking a$$hole you are. All kidding a side. You are a D!ck*


Awww....someone not like my pointing out the irony of a 2 month user asking for experienced growers only to post?? :rofl: :rofl:  All kidding aside....grow up...oh, and own your reps!!!


----------



## niteshft

Roddy, my suggestion of posting by people that have expereance growing with LEDs is much different than saying I'm an expert. You twist words around to make someone else look bad in an attempt to justify what you have been saying. The smart folk here pick things like that up and was the reason for the bad rep, imo. 

  Lying or twisting words around in order to discredit someone else deserves a bad rep in my opinion and I'm not shy to say so out in the open. I wasn't the one that gave you the bad rep but it was deserving so stop your whining.


----------



## Roddy

niteshft said:
			
		

> Roddy, my suggestion of posting by people that have expereance growing with LEDs is much different than saying I'm an expert. You twist words around to make someone else look bad in an attempt to justify what you have been saying. The smart folk here pick things like that up and was the reason for the bad rep, imo.
> 
> Lying or twisting words around in order to discredit someone else deserves a bad rep in my opinion and I'm not shy to say so out in the open. I wasn't the one that gave you the bad rep but it was deserving so stop your whining.



No my friend, you came here asking only for experienced growers. Not only asked, you suggested people need permission to post...only experienced LED users would be allowed. But you yourself have what, one harvest tops? And in that one harvest, you can tell all the good the LED is over the HPS? You're asking for experience but it seems more like you're simply trying to quiet the others so no one questions the info...sorry. There is no twisting of words, no lying (on my part) in this whole thread. I point out the obvious, you wanna make the claims, you should at least have the experience you claim others should! If you found that discrediting toward you, maybe that says something?

I do apologize, I coulda been nicer in pointing out the irony...

As for whining? I just find it funny how some seem to find their "voice" in PM when they can't speak up here?  I posted that rep to point out how badly some act when they think they're not gonna be called on it. We're all adults here, right?


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Its a sad day when we start spittin 110 proof shine over fire to one another sooner to later it going to ignite then folks get burned. Maybe the flames should be kicked out and fires renewed to other ends of trails walkin. Hope yual find that peace I speek of.

BWD


----------



## Roddy

No worries BWD, I'm done here. Said all I can in hopes of getting those leaning one way to the other to go in with OPEN EYES. that's my whole purpose in this thread, make sure people don't get burned....one way or another.


----------



## Locked

Roddy said:
			
		

> No worries BWD, I'm done here. Said all I can in hopes of getting those leaning one way to the other to go in with OPEN EYES. that's my whole purpose in this thread, make sure people don't get burned....one way or another.




Lol...dude you have been the guy with the biggest gas can in this thread. Go back and look through your numerous, long winded, condescending posts. The way you have behaved in this thread is the reason a lot of folks don't post on MP anymore. Sad but true....


----------



## Rosebud

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hamster Lewis again.


----------



## cubby

The voice of reason.......................from a Hamster :aok:


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

I just be seein this here thread for first time and see the agression right away, got me wonderin why a Mod has not kicked out the fire with the bad name callin and all. Ifin yual be in the bush be sayin  just draw blade and to leave one standin at end, then its done but we aint so just walk aways and keep your opinions as yual would believe and stay safe the mp trail walkin cause I reckon ifin yual keep kickin dirt to each other some pilgrem goin feel the sharp pain of a dirt kickin mods boot I bet, then were yu be, not here is were and is this a place yual want to be?

BWD


----------



## Locked

Rosebud said:
			
		

> You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Hamster Lewis again.





			
				cubby said:
			
		

> The voice of reason.......................from a Hamster :aok:



Just speaking the truth.

And Roddy, you don't have to keep PMing me. I stand by what I said. You like to play the " I am just making sure peoples eyes are open" but reading through your posts say that's not really true. It's posts like yours that keep people from even chiming in with their own experience. For the people who tried to chime in with their own experiences, no matter how much experience that is, Thank you. It is appreciated. It is sad that you were talked down to by our very own Jorge  Roddy Cervantes....


----------



## Roddy

Ok, I'll come back. As I said from the start, I am and have been open minded. I ask questions when I see something I question. Not one on here has yet to explain my main question, the one I've asked over and over...how do you get more if LED and T5's veg basically the same..as has been said by an LED user. A plant can only produce so many bud sites per inch, either the bud sites are producing profoundly beefier and thicker buds (which has been shown not to exactly be the case) or there's another explanation? A user posts up pics of nice buds to represent LED, skimp buds for LED and I ask why? Another asks for only experienced users which is a shame since how will we get the truth hearing one side? And that user has 2 months experience...

If my observations bother anyone, my apologies, I just call it like I see it. I believe the real insults come from those doing disservice to this community by trying to make one believe HPS can only produce skimpy buds, or others trying to quiet any questioning voice. 

Again, a side by is the only way you'll ever prove this one way or the other.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Yual ever snag yur inner cheek with a sharp toenail removin yur foot? Sometimes its just best to leave the foot in and savour the flavour before continuein the already done my pilgrem friend.

 I have respect for all but it does come painfully obvious when someone just dont know when to let dead topics stay dead. I have noticed here at Mp that any topic with the "LED" in it have all been scetchy trails walked. I dont know why cause i have no experience with them but it appears they are not the fav here on this trail walkin so I dont walk them here. I hope yual gets over the issues and make for better nicer topics to chaw over.

BWD


----------



## DrFever

aside from the brightness, comparing various light sources has never been apples-to-apples.

Color temperature/wavelength curve/color rendering index, lumens-per-watt, delivered output, heat-radiation, photometrics, and **** tonnes of application considerations.

The snippet yesterday where the guy stopped using his halogen (MR16 it looked like) downlights in favor of an RGB strip seemed like a poor decision despite the benefits of the computer controlled effects. Warm white light (2700kelvin) is much more pleasurable to work under than the cold white LEDs (4-6000k). also, the amount of light that actually made it to his desk from the LEDs was nowhere near what he was getting from the halogens, even if with the same total wattage. Buying higher quality MR16 lamps would have extended their lamp life, Osram MR-16s typically last half a year when left on 24/7.


----------



## Melvan

Roddy, remember me? Your "join date" is after the crash, which when it happened erased your existence from mp because you hadn't been posting here long enough to still have posts here after the reset.

I know people like to rewrite their history to suit themselves, but I _remember_. And, I have to say, I am very disappointed to come here and find you behaving in such a "big fish, little pond" manner. Very disappointed. You were a pleasant person to talk with back in the day, but now you've just gotten too big for your britches.


----------



## Roddy

Again, check my join date, same as yours....no re-writing of history, I don't lie. Anyone thinking differently might post up some proof I was here before that? Or are you saying I had aluminum foil? Or..wait, what has this to do with the thread?


----------



## dman1234

I have learned alot from this thread actually, I learned that LED's are much closer to being good grow lights than i had ever thought, I also learned that i will not be replacing a perfectly good hps ever, but when they die, i will be considering the LED's for sure. I dont see them being better than hps, but i can see them close to equal if not equal, minus the heat so thats a big bonus.jmo


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Here be a great way to change subject pilgrems!!!!

Lets plays a game shall we?

Since we all on the subject How many pilgrems here now under different names from when they be here before the big crash?

A big crash would have open doors to all those in past who came and set to fire but were then asked to leave or maybe ousted and even banned!

How many folks redeemed themselves by taking advantage of the big crash?

Maybe you? Maybe me?

Lookin to what this here world wide web be, are we even the folks we be actin like here on this site? 

Heck I could be a women actin like a man here! I could be a 13 year old kid actin like a old bushman! I could be a good guy in real life or maybe a bad one. Do we realy know?

So the question is who was here before the big crash? And are you usin the same name or are you here to redeem yourself and tryin to fit in were yu didnt fit in before? I might be LOL  So who was i??? LMFAO

This here goin get fun I reckon.

So who are you do do do do!

BWD


----------



## Rosebud

I started as rosebud, i still be rosebud, i reckon i always will be rosebud.

Who are you BWD??? Tell us?


----------



## Roddy

Dates don't mean much to me, I can't remember 2 days ago...but I assure all that I have not changed any names nor have I tried to re-write history! My first journal post is the same one as before the crash...I am a 2nd year grower, coming up on my 3rd.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

I think I like the firesides I set to and these trails walking now my dear friend Rosebud. I have filled my heart with nothing but love and respect for most and for those i dont feel for I keep to my trail walked to avoid becoming one nobody would like. I fish and hunt and like good friends to my firside and shy away conflict ifin I can. 

Come on now folks whos goin tell the truth LOL 

BWD


----------



## P Jammers

Roddy said:
			
		

> I ask questions when I see something I question. Not one on here has yet to explain my main question, the one I've asked over and over...how do you get more if LED and T5's veg basically the same..


Are you really that dense? Do you flower your plants in veg? Do you, do you Roddy? Why you keep asking the same question over and over, and over. How many different ways does it need to be answered before you get it through your Thick Skull?

Read the thread, it's been answered at least three times now.

I'll clue you in, it happens in the flowering stage. Want me to quote it for ya Noobie? 

Member of the month, what a joke. Ought to be clueless member of the month. 

To the rest of the board, sorry I had to bring my self down to this level. 

I have a zero tolerance for three year wanna Be's who are clueless when it comes to tech. Also can't stand a liar who makes claims that he did not use Tin Foil and uses the crash of the board to try and cover his own tracks. Paaaaalease

While you at it, I want you to post pic of your use of LED's to show us all how they don't work. And I want side by sides, so get that up while you at it.

Amazes me how not a single person making bad claims against the LED's has even used them, yet LED users who used HPS for years who try and share info get abused by team Roddy, who between the three of them don't have a stitch proof.

And no Growdude, those pics were not mine of the spaced out buds, they were simply and example of lower branches of someones plants :cough: here that I dug up that you very seldom see with LED's due to plants not stretching much at all.

If ya like though, I can go dig some up from your WW grow where your lower branches are spaced like that. You know, just to show ya in case you forgot they existed?

I didn't come here to try and sell anyone a damn thing. I came here to try and show people LED's have arrived, but it's the same ole thing. 

Puffed out chests from 3 years growers who know it all.

Bla bla bla

You don't deserve me, nor any LED growers who is paving the way for the future if high tech growing.

For the many who have sent me PM's telling me to ignor these types, and to keep posting the results, I am sorry. I just don't see the use anymore.


----------



## Locked

Rosebud said:
			
		

> I started as rosebud, i still be rosebud, i reckon i always will be rosebud.
> 
> Who are you BWD??? Tell us?




Lol...that was funny as hell Rose.    I was here before the crash, same account, same user name. That crash wiped out a lot of my pics....my fault for not backing them up. BWD I know you are someone from our past, just don't know who. Don't really matter so long as everyone is here with good intentions. It's one of the reasons I have never put anybody on Ignore. There is always time for someone to redeem themselves and turn over a new leaf.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Well it dont look like this fire going to burn out with all us keep puttin log on it. I guess ifin I walk away and stop feedin the fire fuel it will eventualy burn out. Hope yur fire here finds final ash in the end but i will not feed the flames here anymore in hopes yual save friends and stress by doin whats right. Hope to see yual friendly at other firesides pilgrems.

BWD


----------



## P Jammers

Poppa use to always say "Start no ****, and there will be no ****"

I tend to agree.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Lol...that was funny as hell Rose. I was here before the crash, same account, same user name. That crash wiped out a lot of my pics....my fault for not backing them up. BWD I know you are someone from our past, just don't know who. Don't really matter so long as everyone is here with good intentions. It's one of the reasons I have never put anybody on Ignore. There is always time for someone to redeem themselves and turn over a new leaf.


 



Thanks Hamster for the human kindness that you show in your thread posts. I might have been a past member and sat here to folks fires in past or was that just a dream maybe you think yual knows me from other sites yual enjoy maybe not. I believe in change and i beleive folks can change ifin they come to the realization that change be needed.

BWD


----------



## dman1234

Dman1234 since August 2008.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Poppa use to always say "Start no ****, and there will be no ****"
> 
> I tend to agree.


 
Smart man he was I bet. Mine always said "Best way to avoid trouble is not to be there"

BWD


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

I joined MP Feb 2012 be bout the best site I ever travelled trails in. I enjoy the friends and fires I have sat by here at MP thanks for that.

BWD


----------



## P Jammers

BackWoodsDrifter said:
			
		

> Smart man he was I bet. Mine always said "Best way to avoid trouble is not to be there"
> 
> BWD



And if I am keeping it real, I knew better then to come on this board, and expect anything less than the way this thread went, but I at least tried.

Judging by the PM's I received, I know the info was helpful to a few.

And for me, that's what's important.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

P Jammers said:
			
		

> And if I am keeping it real, I knew better then to come on this board, and expect anything less than the way this thread went, but I at least tried.
> 
> Judging by the PM's I received, I know the info was helpful to a few.
> 
> And for me, that's what's important.


 
No disrespect my friend I enjoy new topics and I be sure to watch the evolution of the LED grows as I believe they will evolve to great things once smart folk get them dialed in just right. thanks for sharing and educatin folks to yur ways.

BWD


----------



## Melvan

I am Melvan. I have always been Melvan, and you know darn well who I am. 

Roddy the only reason I came here today is because I was hearing talk about how you were behaving. You're getting quite the rep for being condescending and rude. I really didn't believe it at first, as some of the accusers have the same rep themselves. But now that I've read a few threads I believe.

I remember when you were so new to the forums that you were posting pics of yourself with your plants, showing your face, and I had to tell you to delete them.  

Anyone who wasn't a member the date the site reset to when it came back up had to re-register, including me, that's why there are so many jan 2011 joiners.

I just can't express my disappointed in you. Wasted all that time with you for you to turn into this, you should be ashamed.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Lol...that was funny as hell Rose. I was here before the crash, same account, same user name. That crash wiped out a lot of my pics....my fault for not backing them up. BWD I know you are someone from our past, just don't know who. Don't really matter so long as everyone is here with good intentions. It's one of the reasons I have never put anybody on Ignore. There is always time for someone to redeem themselves and turn over a new leaf.


 

LOL more I think bout it my friend Hammy why do you think I come from the past? What makes you think this pilgrem?

BWD


----------



## Rosebud

I am so done with this thread, but I would like to say that it has been nice to see niteshft, Melvin, and Peter back posting here. 

I am old and very interested in lights that I will be able to lift and use in my really old age.( in 20 years)  The LED may be that light. Thank you all.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Hmmm It worked we aint to arguin anymore got everyone thinkin who we all are now. Now lets start healin gain 

BWD


----------



## Locked

BackWoodsDrifter said:
			
		

> LOL more I think bout it my friend Hammy why do you think I come from the past? What makes you think this pilgrem?
> 
> BWD




Just a feeling....   Hell for all I know you could be Matt Riott.


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Who in the heck is Matt Riott?

BWD


----------



## niteshft

BackWoodsDrifter said:
			
		

> I have respect for all but it does come painfully obvious when someone just dont know when to let dead topics stay dead. I have noticed here at Mp that any topic with the "LED" in it have all been scetchy trails walked. I dont know why cause i have no experience with them but it appears they are not the fav here on this trail walkin so I dont walk them here. I hope yual gets over the issues and make for better nicer topics to chaw over.
> 
> BWD


 
  First, I'll state that I was here before the crash by the same name my friend, BWD. LOL 

  As far as the LED bashing, early on, LED companys made rediculas claims (many still do) and many peeps got burned because of it, they just weren't ready yet. I stayed away from them no matter how sweet looking they were because of the warnings here but times are changing. I trust PJ very highly so when he took the plunge after vigorous research and contacting a company that was willing to work with him, giving him a product that worked, I decided to take that plunge myself. 
   When I started using LEDs, I put plants in flower that were cuts from the previous run and the improvement in quality, however slight, was obvious. I'll admit, I was relieved that I hadn't made a bad investment....even though I trusted PJ, there were just so many horror stories out there. 
   The peeps here deserve to be brought up to date as to where LEDs are and have a post to go to that weed out the bad. It's a shame the market is flooded with questionable to down right scams and people are going to continue to get burned, but that's the nature of the beast. At least here, we can have a post that showcases grows done by members. Alltho it's possible, I don't think a member is going to post ficticious grows claiming they were done under LEDs but in actuality HIDs were used. (PERIOD) There are members here that have been with us for a long time and I'm sure they would call anyone out that looked suspicious. Personally, I just don't see it happening.

   How about a thread that showcases grows only but also have a companion thread, " LEDs...Questions And Answers", where those using LEDs or have expereance with them, (you don't have to be using one to gain expereance), can answer questions anyone may have? Or at least try to. I think having one place with grows done with various LEDs for comparason and another for questions and chat would help to keeps things simpler.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

:yeahthat:   Thanks niteshift, good post.

This has been an incredibly informative thread and I would love to see it get back on track.  So everyone, let's see if we can do that and get along like adults.  I want to thank P.J., my my, niteshift and any others who contributed their personal experiences.  We do hear too much hype, which makes everyone leery.

Now, everyone let's just kick back and have a smoke together.

:48: :bong2: :bong: :smoke1: :joint: :vap_smiley:


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Here here! Said mighty fine and to the point as it should be. Good luck to all grows out there no matter hows yual grows we all grows the same thing mj.

BWD


----------



## Locked

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> :yeahthat:   Thanks niteshift, good post.
> 
> This has been an incredibly informative thread and I would love to see it get back on track.  So everyone, let's see if we can do that and get along like adults.  I want to thank P.J., my my, niteshift and any others who contributed their personal experiences.  We do hear too much hype, which makes everyone leery.
> 
> Now, everyone let's just kick back and have a smoke together.
> 
> :48: :bong2: :bong: :smoke1: :joint: :vap_smiley:



:yeahthat:

Niteshft, thanks again bro. I appreciate you guys putting yourselves out there and sharing your personal experiences with LED's. Depending on my tax return I will be giving LED's a try. Do I think I am going to find a replacement for my HID lighting? No. Do I think I might be able to compliment my grows and maybe, just maybe not have to shut down in the Summer? Yes.  I would love to see another LED thread without all the negativity. I understand the skepticism, but I am open minded and at the end of the day I can make an informed decision.


----------



## niteshft

If you've been reading this thread right along you know I've been having issues that may be related to these lights. I had mentioned I disabled 2 of the panels on my 6 panel light, the Apollo 6. (I called the panels fixtures or something previously) I should check with the website and get my nominclature right if I am to do this properly. lol

  Well, anyway, do I suggest you go right out and buy LEDs? No, unless you don't mind coming along for the ride with us and work together to tune in what works where and with what. I got into this realizing there is a risk with the unknown but seeing what PJ was getting made me feel comfortable things would work out.

 My thoughts at the moment is that my issues are related to the plants being shocked going from T-5s to these LEDs. I've chopped the tops of 1 plant that got hit really hard and put it back into veg. The lower leaves were not effected and are ample enough to get the plant vegging again. When I first started using the LEDs my plants had been under a 1000w HPS for a couple of weeks and I noticed some bleaching/burning shortly after the swap. I feel that since plants allready conditioned to high intensity lamps could be stressed under the LEDs, it would most certainly be more stressfull for plants coming from T-5 conditioning. Alltho T-5s do provide ample light for vegging, they are much less harsh than HIDs and the branches further from thier bulbs are even more likely to be stressed under high intensity lights. And I kid you not, LEDs are high intensity and is a facinating techknology.
  If I had set my lights up further from the plants, I might not have had a problem. I don't know and we will all find out together as this thread moves along. Someone posted that the issue was nute related and PJ agreed. I'm not ready to accept that and I've taken a different path. Either way, we will be learning and that's what's important.

DISCLOSURE: I'm (usually) stoned when I post here and I have my age on my side as an excuse as well, when I may leave out something important to what I might be trying to imply. I do always return and re-read my posts when I do and will make changes/additions accordingly.... :ccc: ....including this disclosure.


----------



## Roddy

As I said before niteshift, I do apologize for the way i pointed out what i saw as ironic, I do appreciate your input and those of others. I agree there needs a place with information and questions, a grow journal or two with LED grows would be cool as well! 

*My thoughts at the moment is that my issues are related to the plants being shocked going from T-5s to these LEDs. I've chopped the tops of 1 plant that got hit really hard and put it back into veg. The lower leaves were not effected and are ample enough to get the plant vegging again. When I first started using the LEDs my plants had been under a 1000w HPS for a couple of weeks and I noticed some bleaching/burning shortly after the swap. I feel that since plants allready conditioned to high intensity lamps could be stressed under the LEDs, it would most certainly be more stressfull for plants coming from T-5 conditioning. Alltho T-5s do provide ample light for vegging, they are much less harsh than HIDs and the branches further from thier bulbs are even more likely to be stressed under high intensity lights. And I kid you not, LEDs are high intensity and is a facinating techknology.*

This part is another part I don't understand and maybe someone has an answer...how can the LED be weaker in throw but more powerful to the point it'll burn in different situations than HPS? I assume it isn't the heat from the lamps doing the burning.

ETA...someone stated wearing sunglasses in their LED grow, that and the statement above makes me wonder if maybe they're getting closer to the spectrum of light put off by the sun?


----------



## DrFever

wow there some  rude remarks for sure   And roddy i agree  with most led's   there not to crazy in power i mean a 90 watt ufo is probably 75 watts  etc  if it was actually tested  i will post some pics  emailed a friend  to prove  99 percent of  led's you buy  are not actual wattage  as specified  so again  from  the other poster  saying  getting shock from changing  from T5's to  LED   there is some other issue you got going on  there 
if you look in this pic  i placed clones  2 - 3 " tall  under 1000 watts  8 days ago on 12 /12   there not doing nothing but growing  crazy  and can guarntee you   they went from  under a dome  t5's then to  1000 watt so can pretty much say a clone straight to a hid 1000 watt will do more damage then some 90 - 200 watt led


----------



## niteshft

Some (most of us) can be experienced with using lights, no matter if they are HIDs or LEDs and not be an expert on how or why they do what they do. We can see what we get for results when we change from wattage or types of lights but do we really understand why? There is some information out there that can explain it to a layman to some extent and it usually boils down to more wattage = bigger, tighter buds.

From what I've researched, the following is what I have concluded and is why I'm taking the approach that the light intensity is my issue at the moment and I will soon find out if it is the case or not. I'm just doing what I'm doing and reporting the facts whether I'm wrong or not....if I'm wrong, I have no problem with admitting it, just give me a chance to disprove myself. If I've been steered wrong with my research I'll admit it and move on.

  The bleaching/burning isn't just caused by heat from the lamps, for the most part, but is thought so by many because of the heat that HIDs put out. It's actually caused by the intensity of the light put out by the lamps and is diminished the same way that heat is.....move the source further away. Now some might want to argue that statement and I expect it from expereance...but of coarse the lights will burn your plants if too, close even with T-5s. I know that and most everybody else knows that as well.  When/if I get a chance I'll provide links to where I got my info for what I'm about to say.

  HIDs are said to provide 10% of usable lite for plants and have been worked hard to improve their efficiency with limited success. HIDs are a design that is limited by how they work, adding chemicals or other metals to change their output drastically reduced their reliability and has stagnated to where they are today. The majority of their wattage is wasted in heat. Also, their light is cast in all directions with reflectors used in an attempt to capture the stray light and redirect it back to the plant. Some of the light is bounced of the white walls and is very beneficial.

  LEDs, and few actually are, are said to put out 90% of light that is usable by the plant and is accomplished by the way LEDs work. There are varied recipes, dependent on what is needed for the type of light they put out and there are some companies that expend research dollars to do just that.

   LEDs direct their light straight down rather than all around like HIDs and therefore direct their light directly toward the plant without the need for reflectors and may I say, the white walls, but I wouldn't omit them, that would be ridiculous. lol 

   Having that info and say you have a room that is lit by a 1000w HID for 6 plants that equals to 166+w per plant. Compare that with the 3w per LED the apollo uses 270w and I have one for each of my 6 plants for a total of 1620w. When you take into consideration that the LEDs are directing all that light directly toward the plant rather than being diffused like with HIDs, that is significant, imo and justifys my thinking.

  Either way, I would like the oppertunity to work this out and make my findings available for everyone to use. As mentioned earlier, I disabled a couple of sections of each lamp so thier output is more like 180w ea and a total of 1080w and equivalant to Apollo 4s now, rather than Apollo 6s and would be beneficial to know. If you can get by with a lower wattage and cheaper lite you would like to know.

   Like PJ always says and truly believes, I hope this information helps.

I hope I haven't missed anything but I'm doing my best.

niteshft


----------



## ston-loc

Question, so you are _actually_ drawing 1080watts with the LED running? That's what confuses me, hearing 3watt chips, etc. How many "actual" watts are being pulled with these apollo fixtures? And how much compared to HID with equal results?

I've seen LED technology drastically improve over the last few years in lighting, as an electrician. As far as grows, this really does interest me.


----------



## niteshft

ston-loc said:
			
		

> Question, so you are _actually_ drawing 1080watts with the LED running? That's what confuses me, hearing 3watt chips, etc. How many "actual" watts are being pulled with these apollo fixtures? And how much compared to HID with equal results?
> 
> I've seen LED technology drastically improve over the last few years in lighting, as an electrician. As far as grows, this really does interest me.


 
I posted earlier what I was drawing using a watt-mizer with the LEDs but my HPS has been dissasembled and never got to check it. The 4 fans on the Apollo 6s draw wattage as well so that has to be taken into consideration but it wouldn't amount to much. imo

  I've just disabled part of my lights and haven't used them enough to compare 1 on 1. My "gut" feeling tells me that you will be able to use a substansually less amount of wattage to get the same yield in an average grow. I'm thinking the Apollo 6s are an overkill for what I was targeting but it will be there for any expansion. I hope my thinking comes to fruition.


----------



## ston-loc

I must have missed that skimming the ought the **. So they actually pull that wattage? Or it's equivalent to that of hid? Legit question. I just am high and not understanding the advantage to experiment with something new if the draw is it is more efficient, yet takes the same power to match yields. My mind is open. I just haven't read, or get a reason to go led if you still have to pull the same electricity bill.


----------



## Roddy

*The bleaching/burning isn't just caused by heat from the lamps, for the most part, but is thought so by many because of the heat that HIDs put out. It's actually caused by the intensity of the light put out by the lamps and is diminished the same way that heat is.....move the source further away. Now some might want to argue that statement and I expect it from expereance...but of coarse the lights will burn your plants if too, close even with T-5s. I know that and most everybody else knows that as well. When/if I get a chance I'll provide links to where I got my info for what I'm about to say.*

I guess what throws me is how LED can be more powerful than the HID up close yet lose that power so fast as it moves away from the source.


----------



## Growdude

ston-loc said:
			
		

> I must have missed that skimming the ought the **. So they actually pull that wattage? Or it's equivalent to that of hid? Legit question. I just am high and not understanding the advantage to experiment with something new if the draw is it is more efficient, yet takes the same power to match yields. My mind is open. I just haven't read, or get a reason to go led if you still have to pull the same electricity bill.


 
This is what ive been saying all along in this thread.

I did e-mail Cidly and was told that a a Apollo 12 would replace a 1000 watt HPS.
So it is the manufacturer claim PJ.

But no one in this thread is doing that, they are at or above the same usage as past HPS grows.
So what are the actual advantages? 

If LED puts out so much more usable light than HPS why are we using the same if not more LED watts?


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

Well I tried toi change topics direction and make folks think of friendlier thoughts here at this fire. Turns out nothing can be done here this trail walkin so guess I be one to change trails and not be lookin back to this one. nothin but angry pilgrems here. Hope yual able to mend wounds carved in time.

BWD


----------



## Roddy

This topic is close to many of our hearts, so to speak, BWD, we truly want to hear info on this. While we do wish to hear info, it shouldn't be biased (or misleading or worse) but honest experience and proven data. As I've said before, I don't want some newb to come in, read a few posts and figure the LED is the way to go, let them get the whole picture before making that leap!

It is rather unfortunate the way this thread has gone, one member shooting one's self in the foot. It's gonna be hard to accept much that is spoken by that person which is a shame as I'm sure they could offer info...and it just builds that distrust (that was already there), making it harder to get the real honest info heard.


----------



## pcduck

BackWoodsDrifter said:
			
		

> Well I tried toi change topics direction and make folks think of friendlier thoughts here at this fire. Turns out nothing can be done here this trail walkin so guess I be one to change trails and not be lookin back to this one. nothin but angry pilgrems here. Hope yual able to mend wounds carved in time.
> 
> BWD



Yeah and that turned into a booger tossing contest of who is who, and when they were the who, they are.:rofl:


----------



## BackWoodsDrifter

I understand pilgrem. I truly do! I would hope we could have a thread here though based on this new technology but without the childish drama and mud slingin! People want to come to these threads to get edumacated not read bunch crap focused on percieved person attacks and shet slingin. I for one dont appreciate it when its done constant and without consideration of those who just seek the knowledge of this subject. Knowledge is all one should find here not folks personal points of views that are designed to do nothin but poke the angry badger with a stick to see what dust yual can kick up. Leave it out of the threads and takes it to pms!!! Leave the rest of us out of it  is all I be askin as we dont want it fireside and niether would our guests.

I said me peace on this now and walkin away from a fireside that does not feel welcoming as I dont like to see folk I like or care about act in such juvinile behaivours. Hope yual heal wounds in time. And I truly hope yual dont take it to levels were we dont see folks gain cause of a banning or somethin 

BWD


----------



## niteshft

Comparing apples to oranges is a difficult thing....do I know what it takes to replace HIDs with LEDs? I don't have a clue but got these Apollo 6s as a starting point and somewhere down the road, I might, to a certain degree. I thought that was evident when I explained disabling 1/3 of my light to (1) reduce it's intensity (2) lower electrical cost. 

Making it more confusing, your actually trying to compare apples to oranges and pairs....LEDs vs HIDs and T-5s if you want to discuss the vegging aspect of the grow and we really should.

  Someone said Cidly claims a Alollo 12 will replace a 1000w HPS...maybe so, but I wouldn't try to replace an HID with a single light unless you use a 1000w for a single plant. I don't know anyone that does so I would go with smaller lights and more of them. The reason being is how the LEDs direct thier light down on the plant, limiting the growing footprint if using a single light, you just can't sqeeze 6 plants under a single Apollo 12. In that way, they are simular to T-5s where you need to have the plant directly under the light, but different as they do cast light beyond the perimeter of the light itself by the lens used. (apples to pairs) I believe it's been explained before, a 60 degree lens would be good for growing plants that haven't been topped as much and grown less bushy while the 120 degree lens will spred out the light and cover a plant that has been trained into a larger bush. 

  As far as penetration goes, there is still a question in my mind as to the actual penetration power of the LEDs in comparason to HIDs but I have no doubt that the LEDs out-perform T-5s. While you can have a T-5 directly over the plant as long as they don't touch, LEDs need at least 18 inches clearance or they will burn/bleach. That says alot in my mind about the penetration power of LEDs. I can only assume by trial and error because I don't have the equipment companys use to test lights. I just know what I've been achieving with HIDs in comparason to LEDs and haven't used them in veg, yet.

  As far as better/stronger smell and taste, again, it's been stated previously how I believe that is happening, at least with the lights I have. Remember, these lights were built to order and have 5 different wavelengths/temps put together. Plants use various, I'll just call them color temps or just temps, dependant on the part of the plant. Typically you hear of 2700k or 6400k depending on wether you want to veg or flower. I don't have the info in front of me so I don't have the actual numbers to give you but the plant uses more than a single wavelength for veg or flower.

 There are 2 different types of cloraphyll in the plant and each use a different temp of the spectrum and is the bulk of the light required to produce a decent plant.

 The part of the plant that produces aroma uses a different temp but the amount required is no where near that of cloraphyll.

  The part of the plant that makes flavor uses another temp and like the plant part responsible for aroma the amount required is far less than cloraphyll.

  We can't forget oils now can we? It is what we are all here for, lol. The part of the plant responsible for oil production takes yet another temp and if memory serves me right, it needs more of that wavelength than what aroma or flavor requires. 

  If I come across the actual info I'll post a link but it might be at cidly's website, I just don't remember. But anyway, that is what these lights are designed for and a word of caution, resellers may not have thiers set up that way and you should ask. I've inserted a template earlier as to how mine and PJ's are set up. It's this fine tuning that is responsible for the increased quality and you just can't dial in HIDs like that, IMO, as I explained recently.

  Nutes is another issue that has been brought up and I have been giving it a lot of thought lately. I grow in dirt and nute issues can be troblesome in that nute issues show up much more slowly than say hydro where changes can be seen almost emediately in comparason. PJ grows hydro and has found that nutes need to be reduced. I didn't think my issue was nutes because I hadn't made any changes from previous grows that have been dialed in for the plants I'm running.

 Seeing what PJ has discovered I'm begining to think I may have a lock-out issue since I haven't made any changes to accomadate the LEDs. Having the lights dialed in for the specific needs for the different parts of the plant changes the requirements for nutes as parts of the plant is now using nutes at different levels because they may have been dormant from lack of a specific temp available to them with the HIDs. Of corse this is just speculation on my part but makes sence to me. If a plant part is dormant from lack of the temp required for it to function properly, it leaves those nutes for the other plant parts that are functioning. With a dialed in light those extra nutes are now not available as those plant parts are kicking into gear and it's a matter of trial and error to get the nutes dialed in again. 

  This may all sound very complex and it is and it isn't. It's difficult to wrap your head around a new techknowledgy, especially while being skepticle, but that's why this thread has been started. Be patient (and play nice) and as we move forward I'll post what I do and show my results. That's all I have to offer as I try to wrap my own head around this tech.

Thanks

niteshft


----------



## DrFever

I am sorry but have to  chuckle when i here someone saying  the taste or smell of  the bud   <---   this all falls under genetics, and proper drying and curing of the bud


----------



## Locked

DrFever said:
			
		

> I am sorry but have to  chuckle when i here someone saying  the taste or smell of  the bud   <---   this all falls under genetics, and proper drying and curing of the bud



And that's your opinion....thankfully some like to push the envelope and believe we can improve on Mother Nature. And that's my opinion.


----------



## P Jammers

ston-loc said:
			
		

> I must have missed that skimming the ought the **. So they actually pull that wattage? Or it's equivalent to that of hid? Legit question. I just am high and not understanding the advantage to experiment with something new if the draw is it is more efficient, yet takes the same power to match yields. My mind is open. I just haven't read, or get a reason to go led if you still have to pull the same electricity bill.





			
				P Jammers said:
			
		

> UV and Blue LEDs run at 3.8V input voltage; Red LED run  at 2.6V input voltage; IR LED run at 1.7V input voltage. All run at  700mA input current.
> 
> If one was to search the standard Apollo 6 they would see a wattage  given, however if they are tweaked to a specific design like I did with  these the actual wattage is changed, hence the power draw shown by your  meter NS.
> 
> It's pretty standard for a company to give a wattage based on the  combination of bulbs at 3 watts each, meaning if the cluster has 40  bulbs at 3 watts each they will call it 120 watts. That said if the  colors are more red the wattage will drop, and visa versa.
> 
> Each of your lights are 194 watts which if you were comparing to an HPS  bulb you are getting about the effectiveness of a 400 watt HPS bulb for  each fixture, which is why you are seeing an increase of lower flowers,  and not the typical popcorn seen from HPS bulbs.
> 
> I also wanted to note for Niteshft since I am no longer a member of  another site where I was sharing info as I heard through the grapevine.
> 
> I was under the impression when you asked for my help that you wanted to  make your plants increase yield, and because your legal numbers were a  concern you asked me what "I" would do. I was never under the impression  that you were trying to save on power, so we tried to match what you  were running power wise but increase effectiveness.
> 
> If I steered you wrong I am sorry for that, as well as My My. Neither of  you ever mentioned you wanted to save on power, so in both cases I  doubled your intensity while pretty much keeping total power consumption  the same.
> 
> I am glad to hear that your results have gotten better making the switch, as that was the intention I had in mind.
> 
> Rule of thumb in case that info has gotten crossed. A 300 watt LED has  the effectiveness or useable light of a 600 watt HPS setup. A lot of  companies say it is about three times, but the real facts are closer to  about twice the amount of useable light.
> 
> Hope that clears up some info for you.
> 
> PJ



Maybe that is what u were looking for?

@niteshft

Your LED modules are not the same as what you showed in my earlier charts, which BTW pretty sure I asked you and My My both not to show. It was an earlier design that was flawed due to being too hot. Take a look at your receipt for the actual LED's used.


----------



## my my

@pj
I remember you asking not to share the LED combo. and i haven't..  

I can confirm that the smell is indeed different between the LED lights////
HPS Light, and also outdoor grow..
As i had 3 plants (all the same strain) Crazy Horse..
I will snap a few pics. later today to share with you folks..
No i have not taste tested yet...
But again, the LED bud looks different, and certainly smells different...
So IMO, Yes the LED lights do change the color of the bud, and the smell,, like i said i can not comment on tatse and quality yet, becouse i have not sampled... Probaboly next saturday or Sunday i will try the LED grown weed for my 1st buzz of the day to tell if there is a taste and buzz difference....
anyway, things to do now, so i will snap a few shots of the buds that are curing in mason jars and post them later today...
my my


----------



## niteshft

DrFever said:
			
		

> I am sorry but have to  chuckle when i here someone saying  the taste or smell of  the bud   <---   this all falls under genetics, and proper drying and curing of the bud


 
  Yeah, and so isn't everything else about the plant. The whole idea about growing indoors is to try and understand the genetic workings of the plant in order to be better able to produce the very best product under artificial conditions. That's the reason for sites like this in the first place...for like minded folk to get together and share what they are doing in hopes of helping out each other produce the best possible product. How that was lost here is beyond me.


----------



## Roddy

*This may all sound very complex and it is and it isn't. It's difficult to wrap your head around a new techknowledgy, especially while being skepticle, but that's why this thread has been started. Be patient (and play nice) and as we move forward I'll post what I do and show my results. That's all I have to offer as I try to wrap my own head around this tech.*

It does sound complicated, and I am glad for people trying new things. I'll keep watching!


----------



## Roddy

my my said:
			
		

> @pj
> I remember you asking not to share the LED combo. and i haven't..
> 
> I can confirm that the smell is indeed different between the LED lights////
> HPS Light, and also outdoor grow..
> As i had 3 plants (all the same strain) Crazy Horse..
> I will snap a few pics. later today to share with you folks..
> No i have not taste tested yet...
> But again, the LED bud looks different, and certainly smells different...
> So IMO, Yes the LED lights do change the color of the bud, and the smell,, like i said i can not comment on tatse and quality yet, becouse i have not sampled... Probaboly next saturday or Sunday i will try the LED grown weed for my 1st buzz of the day to tell if there is a taste and buzz difference....
> anyway, things to do now, so i will snap a few shots of the buds that are curing in mason jars and post them later today...
> my my



Has this happened over and over? I know that my clones of OG (same cutting) have different smells and taste even grown in the same conditions. Not trying to argue, just pointing out my experiences.

nm...thanks for the pm!


----------



## niteshft

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Maybe that is what u were looking for?
> 
> @niteshft
> 
> Your LED modules are not the same as what you showed in my earlier charts, which BTW pretty sure I asked you and My My both not to show. It was an earlier design that was flawed due to being too hot. Take a look at your receipt for the actual LED's used.


 
  No PJ, that's not it, it was results of research into the light needs of the plant and I don't remember where I saw it. It described the various temp requirements for the different functions of the plant and broke it down to percentages of total light for each function.

  I don't recollect you telling me to keep that chart to myself or I would have. I was in belief you had shown it to me as a true representation of the way my lights were set up and I apologise if I missed something.


----------



## P Jammers

Growdude said:
			
		

> This is what ive been saying all along in this thread.
> 
> I did e-mail Cidly and was told that a a Apollo 12 would replace a 1000 watt HPS.
> So it is the manufacturer claim PJ.
> 
> But no one in this thread is doing that, they are at or above the same usage as past HPS grows.
> So what are the actual advantages?
> 
> If LED puts out so much more usable light than HPS why are we using the same if not more LED watts?



Interesting, except this is what you said the first time:



			
				Growdude said:
			
		

> This is what I have a problem with, the Apollo 6 claims it will replace a 400 hps all day. hxxp://www.genericled.com/shop/apollo-6/
> 
> A single apollo 10 replaces a 1000 watt hxxp://www.genericled.com/shop/apollo-10/, that should be the same as 6000 watts in PJ's grow.
> 
> We should be seeing results at least twice as good, while there is no  question they are growing extremely well its just not matching the  manufactures claims.
> Therefore the cost savings are negligible with only saving on cooling and bulbs.



So which statement are you going with?

I'm confused. If you emailed Cidly, why did you post what genericled is saying? 

I will say you are correct on one account. The 12 will replace a 1000watt HPS, but the total draw of power is only 430 watts. 

Again, about twice the usable light at half the cost. I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make.


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## WeedHopper

Guys,,this really isnt goen anywhere.Its like Religion and Politics. Why keep arguing about something you are never gonna agree on. Just agree to disagree and lets move on.


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## Locked

niteshft said:
			
		

> Yeah, and so isn't everything else about the plant. The whole idea about growing indoors is to try and understand the genetic workings of the plant in order to be better able to produce the very best product under artificial conditions. *That's the reason for sites like this in the first place...for like minded folk to get together and share what they are doing in hopes of helping out each other produce the best possible product. How that was lost here is beyond me.*




:yeahthat: :goodposting:


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## niteshft

Roddy said:
			
		

> Has this happened over and over? I know that my clones of OG (same cutting) have different smells and taste even grown in the same conditions. Not trying to argue, just pointing out my experiences.
> 
> *Originally Posted by my my*
> *@pj*
> *I remember you asking not to share the LED combo. and i haven't..*
> 
> I am curious as to why this was asked?


 
It's right there in the thread, PJ said there were heat issues with that configuration. Not trying to be disrespectfull or anything but maybe if you moved back from the edge of your seat and sit back and relax you might absorb what you read better.  It's the post just prior to the one you responded to, I believe.


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## P Jammers

niteshft said:
			
		

> No PJ, that's not it, it was results of research into the light needs of the plant and I don't remember where I saw it. It described the various temp requirements for the different functions of the plant and broke it down to percentages of total light for each function.
> 
> I don't recollect you telling me to keep that chart to myself or I would have. I was in belief you had shown it to me as a true representation of the way my lights were set up and I apologise if I missed something.



I believe that was in an older thread when I first started designing modules. It's all good, but not what you light is, nor is it being made so I don't want to it out there for anyone who could be designed a light and make the mistake.


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## niteshft

P Jammers said:
			
		

> I believe that was in an older thread when I first started designing modules. It's all good, but not what you light is, nor is it being made so I don't want to it out there for anyone who could be designed a light and make the mistake.


 
No prob, I'll go back and delete it.


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## Roddy

niteshft said:
			
		

> It's right there in the thread, PJ said there were heat issues with that configuration. Not trying to be disrespectfull or anything but maybe if you moved back from the edge of your seat and sit back and relax you might absorb what you read better.  It's the post just prior to the one you responded to, I believe.



Sorry, that's just not the answer given from PJ. Relax and don't be so eager to shout someone down, my friend, please don't turn this back into what it became before. :holysheep:


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## Roddy

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> Guys,,this really isnt goen anywhere.Its like Religion and Politics. Why keep arguing about something you are never gonna agree on. Just agree to disagree and lets move on.



I actually see progress and useful info coming out. We may never agree, but we may all learn something.


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## Growdude

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Interesting, except this is what you said the first time:
> 
> 
> 
> So which statement are you going with?
> 
> I'm confused. If you emailed Cidly, why did you post what genericled is saying?
> 
> I will say you are correct on one account. The 12 will replace a 1000watt HPS, but the total draw of power is only 430 watts.
> 
> Again, about twice the usable light at half the cost. I'm not quite sure what point you were trying to make.


 
The email was sent after I posted the first post, to find out what the manufacturer was recomending not the reseller.

So again if this is true why are you replacing 2 1000's with 6 apollo 10's?


			
				P Jammers said:
			
		

> NC, there are no changes when it comes to wattage with the lights I am using. If you used 1000 watts in HID, its the same wattage for LED's.


 
And nitesft using 6 apollo 6 to replace 1 1000 watt?


			
				niteshft said:
			
		

> I've been doing a grow with LEDs I purchased from the place PJ was talking about and they are doing great!! I purchased 6-Apolo 6's to replace my 1000w HSP


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## niteshft

P Jammers said:
			
		

> Maybe that is what u were looking for?
> 
> @niteshft
> 
> Your LED modules are not the same as what you showed in my earlier charts, which BTW pretty sure* I asked you and My My both not to show. It was an earlier design that was flawed due to being too hot.* Take a look at your receipt for the actual LED's used.


 
 Here it is Roddy.


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## Roddy

Niteshift, sometimes you merely think you have the answers, please please, lets get to the topic and not reverse.


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## niteshft

Growdude said:
			
		

> The email was sent after I posted the first post, to find out what the manufacturer was recomending not the reseller.
> 
> So again if this is true why are you replacing 2 1000's with 6 apollo 10's?
> 
> 
> *And nitesft using 6 apollo 6 to replace 1 1000 watt?[/*quote]
> 
> You're reading too much into it Growdude...just because that is what I did doesn't mean I or PJ believe they are equal. It's just what I did dude and I also mentioned that somewhere. With something new you have to start somewhere and that is what I did. Actually, PJ recommended it for the size of my room, 6' X 8', and a room that size would need more than a 1000w HID if I was using the whole space, IMO. I wasn't and PJ didn't realize that when he made the recommendation.


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## niteshft

Roddy said:
			
		

> Niteshift, sometimes you merely think you have the answers, please please, lets get to the topic and not reverse.


 
 Just merely responding to what you questioned. If you have something going in the background I have no way of knowing that. Rather than PM me to explain it do it out here in the open so everyone else can see and please don't PM me again.


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## Roddy

You read that pm? Man, you sure are something...keep the belief you're all that pal. As was stated, someone asked it be kept silent...figure that one out.


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## P Jammers

Growdude said:
			
		

> The email was sent after I posted the first post, to  find out what the manufacturer was recomending not the reseller.
> 
> So again if this is true why are you replacing 2 1000's with 6 apollo 10's?
> 
> 
> And nitesft using 6 apollo 6 to replace 1 1000 watt?


Nite  and I run different setups, so lets please not assume we have the same  needs exactly. He runs larger plants. My design was to allow him to keep  doing so and not have to worry about max penetration. He never implied  to me that he wanted to cut power which is also doc'ed in this thread. I also was using total room size to base my recommendation, not plant count. If he wanted to, he could run 24 smaller plants and blow it up, but lets not give him any ideas.


In  my case, and when I first jumped in to the LED's I was thinking along  the lines of expansion, and I do not run 6 plants. I also, and mentioned  in the thread flip flop my lights within a 12 hours period. I still  have the use of 1 1000watt HPS in terms of total cost (to run them power wize), but think about  the light over top of my plants when each set is on.

In essence  what I have created is to what amounts to about 2000 watts over what I  used to to 1000watts of HPS in intensity over the same about of SF Floor  space.

I run my light back and forth, and because they are not  on a full 12 hours, I have "Limited" the amount of sheer damage that can  be done to the plant which My My and Nite have both shown you here that  can be done in 12 hours of light. (Note here they were both warned by  me to keep the lights up and cut the nutes by 1/3rd to start) 

Because they are both online buddy's :cough: hardheads 

I think for others who are unsure, please don't assume. 

I'd  love to explain things with a much more relaxed atmosphere, and if you  guys can show a little more respect, I will Gladly show the same.

Way too much generalizing going on here. 

Different needs, for different Weeds.


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## NorCalHal

I have quite a few PM's from Roddy I never read. He tends to "kiss butt" when you argue with her on the boards and sends pm's to try to get you on her side.
Be a man roddy, and YOU stand behind your words.

But, by all means, keep this thread rockin'!


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## Locked

Roddy said:
			
		

> Sorry, that's just not the answer given from PJ. Relax and don't be so eager to shout someone down, my friend, please don't turn this back into what it became before. :holysheep:





			
				Roddy said:
			
		

> Niteshift, sometimes you merely think you have the answers, please please, lets get to the topic and not reverse.





			
				Roddy said:
			
		

> You read that pm? Man, you sure are something...keep the belief you're all that pal. As was stated, someone asked it be kept silent...figure that one out.






			
				Roddy said:
			
		

> It is rather unfortunate the way this thread has gone, one member shooting one's self in the foot. It's gonna be hard to accept much that is spoken by that person which is a shame as I'm sure they could offer info...and it just builds that distrust (that was already there), making it harder to get the real honest info heard.



And the condescending tone continues.


----------



## Locked

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> I have quite a few PM's from Roddy I never read. He tends to "kiss butt" when you argue with her on the boards and sends pm's to try to get you on her side.
> Be a man roddy, and YOU stand behind your words.
> 
> But, by all means, keep this thread rockin'!




You too huh...seems he likes to do this.

 It's one thing to be skeptical, even openly skeptical....it's a whole different thing to be condescending and make statements like the ones Roddy is making..especially the ones directed at niteshft. Uncalled for and reminds me of typical bully crap.


----------



## Roddy

I wondered when Hal would throw crap into this thread...and looky, hammy lapping it up.

mods might as well close her down as BWD said, this thing is dead as long as we get this type of crap.


----------



## Growdude

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> And the condescending tone continues.


 
Im hearing it from both sides.


----------



## Roddy

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> And the condescending tone continues.



Ahhh, with no real way to add facial or tone, I guess one COULD see that as condescending..and the last one was, but trying to get one to understand English seemed impossible. So, go ahead and judge...


----------



## Roddy

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> I have quite a few PM's from Roddy I never read. He tends to "kiss butt" when you argue with her on the boards and sends pm's to try to get you on her side.
> Be a man roddy, and YOU stand behind your words.
> 
> But, by all means, keep this thread rockin'!



:holysheep: 

Someone says THANKS and all you can do is hold it back for future cannon fodder.


----------



## Roddy

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> You too huh...seems he likes to do this.
> 
> It's one thing to be skeptical, even openly skeptical....it's a whole different thing to be condescending and make statements like the ones Roddy is making..especially the ones directed at niteshft. Uncalled for and reminds me of typical bully crap.



Maybe you're only reading my posts...that could explain how you miss all the other condescending crap which brings my responses? But hey, let s not judge...unless we ourselves are pure. And you my friend are far from it.

Back to the topic??


----------



## ston-loc

Pj, thanks for the reply to my question about actual wattage used. I missed your original post explaining that.

This really is interesting to me. Thank you guys for sharing


----------

