# Any Electicans Around. PEASE HELP!!!



## mikeybtoken (Feb 23, 2010)

So this is what I have http://www.bestgrowlights.com/product/FSSI734057 
Basically a 220/110- 30 amp 4 light timer box.
I ran a heavy duty underground #6 - 3 wire w/copper ground, 40ft out to my grow room off of my house panal adding a 60amp breaker. 
I put in the matching 3 prong outlet and then jumped off of it for a 110 outlet to run this timer box.  
The problem that I have with this set up is that it does not allow me to have constant 110 or 220 while the timer box is off. 
I have two 1000w HPS lights for flower and one MH for veg, at this time I can not run them at the same time on different schedules. Nor do I have constant power for fans heaters, etc, while the timer is off. 

So I need to figure out a way to (safely) jump off of the main wire to add a couple of 110 outlets and another 220 outlet for continious power.
As you can probably already tell I am no electrician and do not wish to hire one for obvious reasons.
I have been thinking about adding a hot tub sub panel, or something but before I spend any money I thought that I should try this first. 

Thanks in advance for any ideas or help!!!!

Peace MBT

Sorry I should have edited my 400ft type o when the Hemp Goddess was asking about a 400ft run.


----------



## nouvellechef (Feb 23, 2010)

PM Viper, he knows his stuff.


----------



## bwanabud (Feb 23, 2010)

You need to drop in a 6 breaker panel box, and connect your feeder #6 wire to it. Make sure to run a ground rod earth bar to the sub panel.

Than you can pull independant 220v or 110 circuits out of it. Make sure you pick up a 2 pole breaker (120% amp rating) and some singles in 20amp (if you have 12 gauge wire) for your 110v circuits.

Hope that helps - get back if you need more info. Be carefull, do it rite, or you'll burn your house down.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Feb 23, 2010)

Is 6 g wire large enough for a 400' run?


----------



## Heemhoff17 (Feb 23, 2010)

bwanabud said:
			
		

> You need to drop in a 6 breaker panel box, and connect your feeder #6 wire to it. Make sure to run a ground rod earth bar to the sub panel.
> 
> Than you can pull independant 220v or 110 circuits out of it. Make sure you pick up a 2 pole breaker (120% amp rating) and some singles in 20amp (if you have 12 gauge wire) for your 110v circuits.
> 
> Hope that helps - get back if you need more info. Be carefull, do it rite, or you'll burn your house down.



:yeahthat:


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 23, 2010)

Thanks Everyone
You people are awesome!!! Ok so I went Home Depot online 

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...=mode+matchpartialmax&style=A&catalogId=10053

Now which box do I need to get. It seems to me that there are several that will work but I'm still not really sure which one I need. 



Thanks again EVERYONE!!!

Peace MBT


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 23, 2010)

PS 
I promise that I will get what ever I need to make sure that I don't
BURN DOWN THE HOUSE!!! LOL

Peace MBT


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 23, 2010)

How about this one,
125Amp,12 Spaces,24 Circuit,HOM1224M125TC Indoor Main Breaker Panel  

It's the closest one (that I could find at Home Depot) to what bwanabud is talking about. I think????.....I will wait to see what you guys and girls have to say.

Thanks MBT


----------



## Growdude (Feb 23, 2010)

I dont see why you couldnt wire a single 110 and 220 to bypass the timer, dont bypass the breaker just the timer contacts.

The box has the breakers in it so you would not need a subpanel to do it, just wire the recpeticals right off the breakers.


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi Growdude 
I see no way to bypass the timer without bypassing the breakers on this box. The box it's self has a 220 outlet cord and a 110 outlet cord (which is where the timer is pluged in) The recepticals that are wired to the breakers are all on the same schedule as the timer. For expample, there is no way to get constant power thru the box on a 12/12 timed schedule. 
I reallly appreciate everyones thoughts and advice and I thankyou all. 
I think that it is pretty clear that I should install a sub panel. 
I have decieded to go with the 125 Amp 12 Space Indoor Main from Home Depot?  

bwanabud says:
You need to drop in a 6 breaker panel box, and connect your feeder #6 wire to it. Make sure to run a ground rod earth bar to the sub panel.

Than you can pull independant 220v or 110 circuits out of it. Make sure you pick up a 2 pole breaker (120% amp rating) and some singles in 20amp (if you have 12 gauge wire) for your 110v circuits.

Hope that helps - get back if you need more info. Be carefull, do it rite, or you'll burn your house down.

I'm not sure what he means by a (120% amp rating) but I figure that I can start another step by step thread with pics, on how to go about hooking this thing up so that I don't burn down the house. LOL 

I will start a thread titled Installing A Sub Panel so that anybody else needing to do so can learn from my mistakes.

I will close this thread with this last post and invite you all to help out with a step by step INSTALLING A SUBPANEL

Thanks Again To Everyone!!!
Peace MBT


----------



## Growdude (Feb 25, 2010)

Im sure it hard to explain and to do without seeing it but the fact is you have constant power from the cord, both 220 and 110, so if thats your only problem you just have to split the circuits to feed one outlet all the time.


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 25, 2010)

Hi Growdude, YES....you are correct! I will do my best explain before I start the other thread with pics so you will be able to see what I have going on.
OK So when I bought the Timer Box, I too thought that it would act as a Sub Panel. Which it technically does, but only to anything that is on the same timer schedule. 
Now...Back to how I have my power hooked up. 
Basically I ran a 6/3 w/ copper ground, to the room off of a 60amp breaker in my Main Panel. 
Hooked it up to a dryer cord outlet and then jumped another 110 outlet off of the dryer cord outlet.
So yes, you are correct, I already have power, but at this time it is protected only by the 60amp breaker. 
However I'm pretty darn sure that everything other that the 110 outlet jumped off of the dry cord is up to code.
I have been researching this for awhile now, but I am by no means an electrician. At the same time this is really not that difficult. But as bwanabud said I just want to make sure that it is done right. 
I just got back from Home Depot and I got most all of the parts and I'm charging my camera as we speak.
What do you think Growdude should I start another thread or just continue this one? 
I'll be posting pics soon either way so that we can all see what I'm working with, what I'm doing and why!

I will take any help that I can get to make sure that I DON'T BURN DOWN THE HOUSE!!! LOL

Thanks To Everyone Again!

Peace MBT


----------



## viper (Feb 25, 2010)

hello mikeybtoken , nice little set-up you got there , nice little price tag too .

first of all you need to take that 110 that you jumped off that 30 amp plug  and remove it immediately . thats a fire hazzard bud (yikes)

yeah it looks as though the timer is what feeds the receptacle panel , it is going to be easier for you a non electrician to just add a sub panel  you'll only have to connect 4 wires instead of trying to bypass the timer , it can be done like growdude said . ill get to all that but lets start out with this , im curious as to how you ran that 6/3 romex 400 ft ? is it lying on the ground ? is it buried ? is it ran in pipe ? is it uf rated ? need to know this to be safe .

Im glad to help on an individual basis or a group but I wouldnt reccommend a sub panel tutorial type DIY thread because well , one needs to be licensed 
and everyones needs and availabilities are not the same .


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 26, 2010)

Hi Viper 
Yeah I new when I did it that It would tempory until I could figure out what the heck I actually needed to do. 
Sorry I must have made a type o on the length of the wire that I ran, it is only 40ft.......sorry. Not 400ft
It is an underground rated cable, most of it is ran along the side of the main structure tied to the T-111, in underground rated conduit. There is about four feet that is underground but it's all in underground rated PVC
It's been awhile since I ran it, it could be #5 I'm not really sure. I do remember that it is really big heavy stuff. When I bought it from Home Depot I told them that I was putting in a huge hot tub and then went the next size up. I am pretty sure that it would meet code, with the exception of the jumped 110. I know...know big no no! Disconected! Check!
OK so lets see here, first of all THANKS for stopping by viper much appreciated!!! I can take all the help I can get. 
No tutorial.....cool!!!
OK so this is where I'm at. I have made several trips to Home Depot talking to there electrician and I have been reseaching all of the DIY sites on how to install a sub panel in a garage or a shop. My story has been that I have a shop with a welder, table saw and compressor that all run on 220.

So this is what I have so far.
125 amp 8 slot Homeline Sub Panel
Two 30 amp dual pole breakers
Two 20 amp breakers 

Four 20 amp 125 watt dual outlets
Two 20 amp 250volt single outlets
Two metal boxes for four 125v outlets
Two metal boxes for single 250v outlets
Cover plates, 1/2 in staples, clamp conectors
8ft copper grounding rod, and clamp
I have about about 30ft of some 10/3 with a copper ground. I'm not sure but I thought that I could use this stuff for my 220 circuts. 
The wire says NM-B 10-3 W/G 600V CIRTEX-U (UL)  On It??? If not I can easily get something different, but this stuff was free. 
My plan was to install all of the boxes first, including the panel. At this point I'm not sure weather I should run each 110-4 outlet boxes off of a seperate 
20amp circuts with it own wire...or just jump off of one circut with one wire?

Sorry man I'm fadding fast I do have some pics but I'm just to stoned and tired to do any more for now. All of this thinking stuff hurts my little brain!!!
I can post pics of any part of this if I'm not making sense at any point. 
I'm in no hurry and can take as much time needed to get this right.
Thanks Again To viper and the whole crew her at MP

Peace MBT


----------



## bwanabud (Feb 26, 2010)

Sorry I've had the flu - will try to find the other thread


----------



## bwanabud (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm back   Can't find the other thread...so let's cover the basic info needed here.

(1) *What is the Feeder panel (house box) main breaker size ?* This is supplying the available current to the subpanel(grow room). It should be at least 150 amps, or you could have "brown out" issues. You have the ability to "pull" 60a off of that main. That doesn't mean you should/can.
(2)*Is the 6ga. wire solid or stranded?* The capacity for 6ga. solid @ 40' is 55/60 amps(based on elec. co. provided voltage). You can only effectivly "pull" 80% of that value thru the breaker. Thus the 120% figure stated in my previous post. *EXAMPLE:* A 20 amp breaker is "good" for 16a of continuous current load.
(3)*What is the max. current use of your needed devices in the grow room ?* (lights, fans, heaters, cooling, ect....). The ratings are listed on the devices, get a calculator out-and start adding.

*Bottom line: What you want or need, in available power requirements....does not mean you have the capacity the provide it.*
*Do the homework first.*


----------



## viper (Feb 26, 2010)

mikeybtoken , i hear ya man , it is a lot to fathom on short notice but your doing fine , 

got nothin but time .

bwanabud has made some valid points ,,  yo bro , your confusing residential with commercial .

mikey

you do need to add up or list all the equipment that your wanting to run so we can size the overcurrent protective device/breaker . you do need to know if you have the availability in your existing panel . the 80% rule does NOT apply to branch circuits in residential houses . therefore the 120% rule which is actually 125 % rule would not apply, only to motors which you'll have very few of if any .

heres a mock make up , if your running 

3 - 1000w 240v lights = 12.5 amps 
2-8" exhaust fans 1.6a each=3.2
2-oscilating fans .4a each=.8
dehumidifier 5a
space heater 12.5a
4-air pumps .04a each=.16


you would be at 34.16 amps max 

i calculated the lights being 240v because of the timer box you purchased that had the 4 240v outlets and i dont see any other reason having 240v duplex receptacles/plugs

all this does depend on the  availability of your existing panel


----------



## bwanabud (Feb 26, 2010)

*Viper - I beg to differ: It is standard practice to size based on 80% continuous load.*

*CIRCUIT BREAKER AMPERE RATINGS*
Circuit breakers have an ampere rating (typically marked on the end of the operating handle). This is the maximum continuous current that the breaker can carry without exceeding its rating. As a general rule the circuit breakers ampere rating should be the same as the conductors ampacity. In other words we would not want to put a 60 amp breaker on a 10 amp wire. Breakers are tested in open air, with a temperature of some 40 or 50 degrees C. 
*When a breaker is placed within an enclosure, cooling airflow is restricted; this reduces the ability of the breaker to carry a current to 80% of its ampere rating.* When they are installed in an electrical enclosure, breakers will trip when a current in the amount of their rating is placed upon them continuously. Breakers are designed to be able to safely carry a current in excess of their rating for very very short periods of time to allow some types of electrical equipment (called inductive loads) such as motors to start up. 
*While not as common, some breakers are rated for 100% continuous loads. These are typically called supplementary protectors (SP) and not circuit breakers.*

*Excerpt from electrical engineering data. I'm only trying to help - not provide false info, or cause any unsafe situation (not that you are either). With out revealing my credentials or schooling...I know what I'm talking about.*

*I will be glad to walk away and let you take the helm.*


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks Guys I'm much happier about doing this knowing that I can share the actual application with experienced people. I really don't want to Burn Down The House LOL
THANKYOU....THATNKYOU....THANKYOU BOTH!!!
I know that I can do this, at the same time I have never done anything like this so I just really want to be REALLY sure about what I'm doing. 
First off it sounds to me like you both know way more than I'll ever know about this stuff and I know that BOTH of you can help me out here. There's plenty of me to go around...LOL I'm easily convinced that you both know you $$$$.
OK First off let me start by answering both of your questions and then I have a few of my own.....imagine that, LOL

bwanabud, I hope that your feeling better! 

The Main House Breaker
Is a 200Amp, I know that it can handle a 60Amp Breaker because ther are already two installed in the panel. 

The Cable to the Room
I will not be able to get actual spec on the cable  until I pull some conduit off of it. I do know that it is the biggest cable in the Main Panel with the exception of the service cables to the box. I did not skimp on it, and it was not cheap. It is stranded?

Max Loads
viper you are really close on what I have now, I will be adding a portable AC/Unit, probably no bigger than a 10,000 BTU unit. I would like to make sure that I have enough to run another 1000w light in the future. I can't think of anything else other than a couple of 110 lights and a third heater if it get supper cold. 

4 - 1000w 240v lights = 12.5 amps + 4amps = 16.5-17
2-8" exhaust fans 1.6a each=3.2
2-oscilating fans .4a each=.8
dehumidifier 5a
space heater 12.5a x 3 = 37.5
4-air pumps .04a each=.16
Portable AC Unit???

viper 
i calculated the lights being 240v because of the timer box you purchased that had the 4 240v outlets and i dont see any other reason having 240v duplex receptacles/plugs

Ok so let me see if I can explain....there are two cords comming out of the
Timer Box/Panel a 220 that plugs into a 30a dryer outlet. Then a 110 cord that plus into a timer that control all of the power comming into and out of the Box. So when the timer switches to the off cycle, the box has no power comming out of it. I probably should have explaned this better from the start. So when I flip over to 12/12 I have no way to keep power to my veg room. I need a minimum of two 220 outlets, one for the timer box and another for one light and if I ever did get another light I would want three total. Two 20a and one 30a
That darn box has confused me since I bought it as well, the only thing that it really does is allows you to run four lights and two fan on the same timer. There is no way to get power through it when the timer is in off mode! I should have thrown up some pics but again I'm beat.
Time for these bongloads that I've been saving until I'm done here. 
I did pick up a couple of pieces of 12/3 today but that about all that I got done on this today. I probably have about 25-30 ft of it. I was planning on buying 12/2 but I got the 12/3 for free. Just another wire to make it more confusing LOL 
My Plan is to hang the boxes, run some wire and then I WILL POST SOME PICS! This may take me a few days.
Almost forgot...questions!!!
OK should I go ahead and add a Main Breaker to my new panel, so that I can cut all power with one switch. If I do, what size should it be, or does it have to be 125a to match the panel???
Do I have to run each 220 outlet on it's own circut, or can I run 2-20a-220v
outlets on one circut and the 30a 220 on another.
I'm not sure that I'm making any sense at this point so off to my bong loads and bed.
My brain is just not used to thinking this hard LOL 
I THINK I CAN.....I THINK I CAN.....LOL

Peace MBT

PS If I disapear for a few days it's not because I'm ignoring anybody, I have health issues that sometimes stop me in my tracks for a day or two at a time so please be patient with me. 
Thanks Again to you both and all here at MP 

Peace!!!


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 27, 2010)

Much better!!! It's amazing what some good sleep can do for a guy. 
First things first let get some pics rolling. I have had some problems with my camera but I think that I have it figured out?
These first two pics should be of my Main 200amp Breaker Box. 
I'm not sure if you can see in the first pic that the wires going into the 60amp breaker at the top left are slightly smaller than the cable that I installed to the 60amp breaker going to my room (bottom right) Still I will get make sure to get some specs off of it once I tear into it.
The second pic is just showing how I have it hooked up to the Main Panel. 
I've got more I just want to see if this will work first. 
Peace MBT


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 27, 2010)

OK finnally!!! If I did this right....
Pic One is of the box it's self.
Pic Two is the box with the the cover off.
Pic Three is showing the switch that controls all power comming out of the  timer box. 
Pic Four is me trying to get a better pic of that swith in the box.
Pic Five is showing how I had it hooked up to the dryer cord outlet. The reason that I am putting in the sub panel. NOT SAFE... FIRE HAZARD...COULD BURN DOWN THE HOUSE. 

It's not really that funny but I have to laugh everytime I quote bwanabuds post about burning down the house. At the same time I do realize that it is no joke and that's why I'm here.

I have more pics but I'm not sure that either bwanabud or viper will really need them until I get some work done.
I'm off to possibly pick up a main breaker for the new panel and some 12/2 wire. I hope that I'm not making this more confusing than it needs to be, if so just tell me what I need to do to make this easier. 

Peace MBT


----------



## DonJones (Feb 27, 2010)

Actually, if no one has messed with the dryer breaker in the main panel, all plugging your 60 amp system into the dry receptacle would do is cause the dry circuit breaker to trip at what ever amperage it it intended to carry, usually 30 or 40 amps.

The circuit breaker does NOT allow the amperage to exceed a preset amount regardless of what you hook to it.


----------



## viper (Feb 27, 2010)

no big deal bwannabud , you are right about continuous loads but all is not continuous load here , lets size his sub panel at 125 % and maybe the lighting but lets help mikey out , what do you say ? 

mikey ,

pics are good man.

did you remove the timer ?

no worries about the wire size its just the insulation they used when they made the wire back then ,,,, hey in pic 1 of main panel , that white wire at top left looks a little black , is that electrical tape or did it get hot ?


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 28, 2010)

Welcome DonJones
The 60amp breaker at the bottom of pic #2 is one that I added to the Main Panel. The house dryer breaker is on another circuit. 
Hi viper 
did you remove the timer ? 
In post #22 pic # 5 you can see how it was hooked up. At this time there is nothing pluged into the jumped 110 off of the 220-30amp dryer plug. So yes I removed the timer a few days ago.
The wire that you are looking at is off of the 60amp breaker going to the Heat Pump/HVAC unit and is just painted? New house, new panel so no problems there. 

So I have set all of the boxes and am going to run wire on them today. 

This is what I came up with:


----------



## mikeybtoken (Feb 28, 2010)

So here is my plan so far??? Box #6 will be the 30amp dryer receptical that I already have. Shown in post 22 pic #5

Ciruit #1 
Boxes 1,2 and 5, will be on a single, 110 - 20amp circuit.

Circuit #2
Boxes 3,4 are 220 -20amp recepticals. I need to get a 20amp dual pole breaker. The one I had puchased for this circuit is a 25amp.

Circuit #3
Box #6 is the 30amp dryer cord receptical and this will be on it's own 30amp breaker.

I have an extra 20amp breaker if I want to run split Circuit #1 into two circuits, but I'm not sure that I need to.

Questions?

# 1  Do I have to remove the jumper grounding bar from the new panel?
# 2  Should I install a Main Breaker into my new panel, if so does it have to a 125amp. I'm thinking that the 60amp breaker in the main panel is already acting as a main. 

Other than that I think I'm ready to run wire. My plan is to use you boys for my final inspection before I hook up power. 

I think that I'm on the right path here but we will see?

Running the wires might take me a day or two, LOL If you guys were doing this the whole thing would probably take less than an hour, while taking bong loads every five minutes. 

Peace MBT


----------



## viper (Feb 28, 2010)

yes , your doing great 

yes , remove the jumper bar in the sub panel , it should have come with a big green screw that you use to bond the ground bar to the can itself ,, theres a pre drilled hole in the ground bar , screw it down tight . make sure you dont put any white wires on it  , only ground wires 

no need for a breaker in the sub , unless you want to be able to shut it all down from there . and if so you need to put in a 60 not a 125 .


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi viper 
Not much got done I lost steam today. I have been a bit confused about removing the jumper bar.
It does not look like the one in my seimens main panel. It looks like it is molded into the plastic housing. It is also what holds the two ground bus bars into the box. Also the green ground screw goes through the center of it?
I could be smoking too much weed here but it sure does not seem like this one is made to be removed?????
Thoughts????

A,  Way Too Stoned, need to come down and look at it again before getting baked first ting in the AM

B,  This box is not made to have the jumper removed?

C  I don't know #### and I'm missing something really simple?

D All of the above???


Peace MBT


----------



## Growdude (Mar 2, 2010)

viper said:
			
		

> yes , your doing great
> 
> yes , remove the jumper bar in the sub panel , it should have come with a big green screw that you use to bond the ground bar to the can itself ,, theres a pre drilled hole in the ground bar , screw it down tight . make sure you dont put any white wires on it , only ground wires
> 
> no need for a breaker in the sub , unless you want to be able to shut it all down from there . and if so you need to put in a 60 not a 125 .


 

Your going to need a 4 wire feeder to the sub and remove the jumper, it looks like the screws come out then remove the bar and put the screws back in.
You cant feed that subpannel from the dryer cord.


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi Growdude 
LOL...I have never had intentions to feed the new panel off of the dryer
outelt. 
The new panel will feed the 30amp dryer outlet off of a 30amp breaker. I already have a 6/3 with a copper ground feeder cable installed off of a 60amp breaker in my main panel.

I'M STUCK ON THIS JUMPER BAR.......HELP!!!

Pic #1 
Is showing the bottom of the new sub panel where the jumper bar is conected to the ground bus bars. 
If you look to the right of this picture you can see that the jumper bar is incased in the plastic housing.
THE GROUND BUS BARS ARE NOT AT THE BOTTOM. With the screws out they are loose at the bottom. The screws do NOT conect them to the plastic housing?

Pic #2 
Is a close up of the left side conection. I could cut the top of the plastic housing to remove the jumper but even if I did so, the bus bars would still only be conected at the top. Which I could remedy by tapping a screw through but I'd rather not!

Pic #3 
Is showing the right side conection. If you look at the first third of the jumper bar you will notice about a 1/4 inch hole where the jumper is held in place to the housing. I was thinking about dremeling out the piece of housing that holds the jumper from moving from side to side.

Pic #4 is just showing where the green ground screw is located in the middle of the jumper bar.

After taking the box completely apart now a few times I have come to the conclusion that 
1, Maybe this box is just not made to have the jumper removed.
2, I am missing something really simple.
3, Maybe I should just take this one back and get a box that does not have to be modified to remove the jumper, if that is actually the case.

Pretty much everything else is ready to go with the exception of pounding that 8ft grounding rod in another location. I hit rocks at about 4-1/2 - 5ft twice now. What a pain in the but that thing is. 
My neighbor just caught me on a ladder with a sledge hammer pounding the crap out of that thing and gave me a real funny look. I was going to say something but I just could not think of any good excuse for what I was doing so I just smiled, waived and acted like I knew what I was doing.....LOL. I think that I hurt my self on that second hole. Can I cut this thing is half?

I could really use some options here!  

Peace MBT


----------



## clanchattan (Mar 2, 2010)

ground rod whomping is a lot easier when you rent a hilti gun from HD.

you can leave the jumper in. the NEC refers to the neutral as a "grounded conductor". your transformer that feeds your house is fed by a high voltage wire and steps the hv current down into 240/120v. the neutral that comes into your house is created in the transformer and is bonded to the line side (hv side) ground at the pole. your neutral entering your house has continuity to ground.


----------



## viper (Mar 2, 2010)

ok , your gonna have to install a seperate ground bar , thats the one thing i dont like about square d you cant simply remove the jumper . 


screw all that back down and do not install that green screw , just toss it away . home depot or lowes has them in the electrical section it looks just like the one in your panel ,ask for help if ya need ------------ 

there are some prefab holes in the panel that you screw down a new ground bar to , pic 3 i see them , youll have to maybe remove some of the set screws of the new grd bar to match them up to .


----------



## bwanabud (Mar 2, 2010)

Hi Mikey,
Back from my deathbed (the flu).

Put the existing ground bar jumper back together, and tighten well. Chuck the green screw.

Like Viper say's...go pick up an auxiliary ground bar, mount it horizontally centered in the bottom portion of the box. You should be able to get the screws to line up.

Everything else looks pretty good. But I still haven't seen a total load list. You have to assume continuous load on some of these circuits (lights, fan, cooling). So let's figure out total load capacity for the room(just to be safe). You will want to leave some additional capacity for future expansion, or forgotten needs (propagation mats, radio, mini hydro, ect...)

We know that you're figuring a Max 60amp sub panel capacity ... you don't need to add a main breaker at the sub. As long as you are switching most of the devices, or can kill the necessary breakers in the room.


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks Guys
Hi clanchatten, have you ever tried to do something where the whole time that your doing it your thinking there has to be a much easier way.
I'm still not sure what kind of Hilti tool will pound this sucker in? But I will call a rental place first thing in the AM. Great Idea!!!

Wew.....I thought that I was loosing my mind on this jumper bar!!! An auxiliary ground bar, now that makes much more sense. I just knew that there had to be a simple solution.
It's kinda funny that the two things that I thought for sure would be the easiest have turned out to be the hardest.

bwanabud I hope that your feeling better!
OK lets see, total load list? This is from post #20 where viper came up with a list of everything that I can possibly think of.

(Revised)
Max Loads
viper you are really close on what I have now, I will be adding a portable AC/Unit, probably no bigger than a 10,000 BTU unit. I would like to make sure that I have enough to run another 1000w light in the future. I can't think of anything else other than a couple of 110 lights and a second heater if it gets supper cold. 

4 - 1000w 240v lights = 12.5 amps + 4amps = 16.5-17
2-8" exhaust fans 1.6a each=3.2
2-oscilating fans .4a each=.8
dehumidifier 5a
space heater 12.5a x 2 = 25
4-air pumps .04a each=.16
Portable AC untit  10-12amps

I don't ever see needing more than 60amps, but I will most likely never actually use more than 40-50amps at one time, if that. 

Man I'm paying for my attempt at that ground rod. I may be down for a day or two because of it. If I'm gone for a day or so I'll be back.

Hey I want thank everyone for everything, I figure that I should be ready for a final inspection by the end of the weekend for sure. Maybe sooner depending on how I do in the AM? Hey it is the AM. I will post pics then wait a couple of days before I power up. Let you boys pic thru them to see if I missed or messed anything up. Like I said before I'm in no huge hurry. 
Time to medicate!!!
Thanks Again!!!
Peace MBT

PS It's going to be really cool to remove all of extension cords for good!


----------



## bwanabud (Mar 3, 2010)

Mikey,
You got a PM


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 3, 2010)

Thanks bwanabud. 
I will definately try the 45deg angle trick on my next attempt at the ground rod. 
OK So here's what happened! I hurt myself on that darn ground rod yesterday could hardly sleep until I got extremely medicated. I knew when I woke up this morning, that I should have just waited until tomorrow to mess with any of it but I thought I'll do some easy stuff, highly medicated and stoned. Off to Home Depot I go. 
I got the auxiliary ground bar and another ground rod and few odds and ends. Then I start thinking, this is where I should have stopped!!! 
So I figure that I will just put the ground bar in and hook up the grounds. How hard can it be? (That's me thinking again) Then I'll just get some rest and heal up a bit. 
So here is what I did.


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 3, 2010)

First pic 
Is showing new ground bar and all of the white ran to it and all copper to the ground bus bar...of coarse the 220's don't go the auxilary bar but now they are short.  
Second pic 
Is showing how I had planned on putting the breakers in with a 30 amp top right a 20 amp 220 top left (I know I forgot to pic up another 20 amp dual pole breaker) Anyway so top left has a 25 for now. Then the two 20 - 110 breakers under the 30amp on the left.
Pic #3 is showing my question? Can or should I just move the breakers to make it work, or just pull new 220s ?????

I'm going to rest and not mess with any of it today!!! Tha's the smartest thing that I've said so far!!! (Kinda laughing, but not really) I knew better!!!

Pain, pot, medication and electrical don't mix!!!!!!!!

I'll try again tomorrow.

Peace MBT


----------



## clanchattan (Mar 3, 2010)

you can put those breakers in any order you want (or that'll fit) your wiring.


----------



## bwanabud (Mar 3, 2010)

Just move those breakers down, so the wire is long enough. Fill the blanks with spares if needed.


----------



## viper (Mar 3, 2010)

you need to swap the grounds and neutral wires ---- the grounds need to go to the new ground bar and the whites need to go to the panel ground bar


----------



## viper (Mar 3, 2010)

the trick to driving a ground rod is to use water for the first 5 ft then use sledge for the remainder ---- easy as pie

ever seen one of those old butter churners ? its like that -- pour water, ram the rod  in and out until its workable with a sledge from a standing position


----------



## bwanabud (Mar 3, 2010)

viper said:
			
		

> you need to swap the grounds and neutral wires ---- the grounds need to go to the new ground bar and the whites need to go to the panel ground bar


 
Nice catch Viper


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 4, 2010)

As Always Big Huge THANKS TO EVERYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will be sub contracting the ground bar pounding out to a big dum kid. I've used him for all kinds of silly heavy stuff in the past. He seems to remain clueless as to what I'm actually doing, nor does he seem to care. All he really cares about is that I pay him cash when he's done. Really nice kid but dum as rocks most of the time. He's perfect for times like this.
I'm just too messed up to be trying to mess with that kind of stuff in the first place!!! 

OK..... So as long as I understand everything correctly I should have everything else wrapped up today and will post another photo shoot of everything by latter today or tomorrow. 

Let me review just to make sure.

First, All of the grounds (copper wires) will go to the new aux. bus bar. 

Second, All of the neutrals (white wires) will go to the panel bus ground bars. (Except on the 220 circuits. Where they actually just become a second hot) 

Third, It does not matter at all where or what order the breakers are placed in the panel ?

Cool Beans!!!

Soaking the ground for ground bar installer.......check!!!
Get a piece of capped water pipe to put over it........check!!!
Pay kid to beat the crap out ground bars.......check!!!
Off to fix yesterdays @@@@ ups.......check!!!
No smokey until I'm done........check!!!

Peace MBT


----------



## viper (Mar 4, 2010)

sounds good , 

make sure you use romex connectors at the knockout holes in the  boxes and the panel , and when you install the devices/plugs , make sure you wrap black tape around the pugs guarding the set screws from touching the metal boxes .

oh yeah !  you might want to put the ground rod clamp on the rod before you flare it out and cant get it on due to excessive pounding --- just tighten it down just below your contraption -- thats if the water trick dont work for ya 

all in all i think your doing a great job .


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 5, 2010)

Thanks Viper 
Well It took me forever and I probably messed up anything that could be messed up. I made plenty of silly mistakes that I didn't bother to metion. But I'm pretty confident at this point that everything should work just fine, THANKS TO EVERYONES HELP!!! I'm ready to hook up power in the morning.
I CAN'T THANK EVERYONE ENOUGH!!! REALLY!!! I could not have done this w/o all the pointers. I'd likely take at least another month probably longer and I then likely have had to hire an electrician to help me.  I feel so much better about flipping that main breaker.
I will post a bunch of pics and do my best to explain them first. I figure that the worst thing that could happen is that it will flip back off if I really messed something up. Like I said already I feel confident that everything will work just fine and I will at this time tomorrow have removed all of my extention cords to and from my room. SWEET!!!

OK enough blabbing lets get to the pics.


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 5, 2010)

Pic #1
The ground rods, that sucker was a pain in the but, even for the kid but with the tricks offered by the pros and a healthy 225lb 19yr old, one is done.
And yes that sucker is 8ft long!!! 
Pic #2
Grounds....re-done right!
Four grounds to the new aux. ground bus. Two neutrals to the sub panel ground bus.
Pic#3 
Showing the four circuits comming into the box. The two yellow sheaths are 110 circuits and the two orange sheaths are 220 circuits. 
Four copper grounds going to the new aux. bus ground. Two neutral grounds (white wires /110 circuits) going to the sub panel ground bar.
Six hots, four blacks, two whites going to the four breakers.
Pic #4 
Not sure what I was trying to show here?
Pic #5
Showing the four hots (two whites and two blacks) going to 2/220 circuits on the left. And two black hot going to two 110 circuits on the right. Six hots all together
Pics # 6 
Is just showing the four circuits comming into the box (same as pic #3)
Pic #7 
Is showing the whole set up, minus the 30amp dryer outlet and the other 110 outlet box. I have been waiting to cut all power to the dryer outlet until everything else is done.
Pic #8 
This is why. I have one light running off of it in my veg room. I will cut power to finnish those two boxes and then I will be done.
These girls are 38 days in veg and are ready to flip in the next few days. Gives me just enough time to set up and test everything. Almost like I planned it that way. WOW!!!

I will get more pics of the whole set up once I get everything cleaned up. I will also check back before I turn on power. Just to make sure that I did not miss anything silly. I'm pretty darn sure that everything is a go. 
I rushed the pics a bit and I hope I explained them so that you boys can see and understand what I got going on here.
If I missed something or need to give more info or pics just let me know!!!

Thanks Again To Everyone!!!

Peace MBT


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 5, 2010)

Well Viper 
You were definately right about putting tape around those knock outs. First breaker that I flipped arked out on the box at the knock out.......(I over tightened it and bit into the hot wire) Sparks smoke ......and a very load bang! Sounded like a shotgun. LOL
I can laugh about it now but when it happened it sure scared the living crap out of me. I quickly replaced the wire and checked the rest of them to make sure that I had not done the same thing to them. That 10/3 wire is thick enough that you just can't over tighten those knock out screws. Lesson learned!!!
I have actually gotten alot quicker at replacing wires since I started this little project.......LOL
After replacing the wire and double checking everything for the 100th time I finnally got up enough nerve to try again. And it's all working great!!!!! No more power cords. AND IT'S SAFE!!! 
Big Special Thanks to both bwananabud and viper, you guys were both a blessing and I can't thank you both enough!!!!
I'll be sure to go back over this thread to make sure I thanked everyone that posted here, and to make sure that I added to their rep and all that good stuff. I'll post more pics once I get some rest and get everything cleaned up.
I can't believe I actually did it? I have always been one of those guys that has someone else do this kind of stuff until now.
Sorry mr bud connect(s) I don't pay for weed ANYMORE!!! LOL
Thanks Again!!!
Peace MBT


----------



## viper (Mar 5, 2010)

whoohoo - good job man , your welcome and glad to see you up and running

now tell us what strain you got growin .


----------



## SherwoodForest (Mar 12, 2010)

It's not right. It will work, but it's a hazard. 220 is 2 hots (the black and the red wire) a nuetral (the white wire) and the ground wire. You cut the red wire off and capped it, it should be your hot and the big white is used for a neutral. Using the unshielded ground wire as your nuetral on a high amp load 220 amp circuit is a major no no.


----------



## SherwoodForest (Mar 12, 2010)

I think I see another major nono. The wire that feeds electricity into that box DOES NOT FEED INTO A BREAKER!!! It is attached to the main buss bars where the two lugs are. Use the red and the black, then attach the white to the main lug on the nuetral buss bar. You are feeding voltage backwards through the breaker and into the buss, bassackwards!:holysheep:


----------



## SherwoodForest (Mar 12, 2010)

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=154830&d=1267766289 See the big lugs? Two are the hots, and the big lug on the nuetral buss bar is for the white. That's what the incoming wire feed attaches to from a breaker in the main panel. Then you  run 220 and 110 off the breakers to your outlets and devices. And use the red as a hot. The white is a big wire and insulated just like the red and the black, it needs to be capable of the higher amps without getting hot. That dinky unshilded ground wire will get hot and it's possible that it will short out seeing how it is contacting other ground wires whilst being a nuetral. I can't tell you any more except that what you have now is  a fire hazzard.


----------



## SherwoodForest (Mar 12, 2010)

Like this. hxxp://www.ask-the-electrician.com/Pics_Sub-Panels/DSC00288_W600-ID1.JPG


----------



## viper (Mar 13, 2010)

hey sherwood how goes it bro ,,,

he does have it wired like it suppose to be ,, he just didnt put the pic up cause he still had the sub feed connected to the 3 hole dryer plug that he started with ,,,, if you look at page 2 in the main panel where he has the 60 amp sub feed breaker wired properly and in the sub panel , he did the same sept he used the main lugs ,,,,,,,,,,,,, and for a 3 hole dryer plug or any 3 hole 220 plug does not require a neutral it requires a ground and he just used the white wire instead of the red .


----------



## SherwoodForest (Mar 13, 2010)

Ok cool, he has the incoming feed done right then. I know what you mean about the 3 wire plugs,woo, see what a few good bong tokes does to a guy.:joint:  Fun room, nice to see a big grow.


----------



## todoobie (Mar 13, 2010)

code might  dictate sub panel but??


----------



## SherwoodForest (Mar 13, 2010)

It's so he has several conveenient(sp?) places to take juice from, code is nice but I doubt he will be calling an inspector to get the job sighned off. I'm surprised to see the need for 20 amp 220 volt outlets, it's not a very commonly used plug. I guess the ballasts are 20 amp 220 units. A european plug won't go into any of those outlets though because the verticle blade is on th opposite side of the plug. I used to have foreign tourists come to me and ask for some way to use their electric razors or chargers or whatever and they would bring me the adapter we sold for US citizens going abroad to use, only they wanted the opposite! I used to tell them, you should have bought that at the hardare store in your country. Sorry, I hijacked this thread llong enough.


----------



## nouvellechef (Mar 13, 2010)

Whoa. I just chimed back in. Very nice electrical work. I need help in this area. Its the one thing I really just cannot do yet. I can see your pics and visualize walking into the Depot and getting everything.


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 17, 2010)

Looks like I should have checked back over here sooner. Sherwood on post 52your link to the sub panel hook up pic is exactly how I have it hooked up with the only exception being that the jumper is not connected and that I have a Homeline box. 
As for the plug outlets, they are standard 220/20 amp plugs that come on all  new switchable electronic ballast that I have seen, Galalxy, Lumatex, Future Brite. As for the inspection... yes, I will be skipping that little detail on this job....LOL. But I'm pretty darn sure that it would pass. I recently went to a new house that had just had a large shop wirred in. Just to see how they had wirred in the sub panel and it all looked very simular, as far as I could see??? Thanks Again to viper and bwanabud!!!!!

nouvellechef Thanks man!!! 
I would highly recomend using these boys if you are trying to do it yourself!!! Like bwanabud said someplace back at the beginning of this thread...."you don't want to burn down the house"  I still laugh when I write that!!! But really it's not that funny? Maybe that's why I think it so funny???
While dealing with Home Depot I told them that I was wirring a sub panel in a shop and they were great help as well.
Good luck and be safe!!!

Peace MBT

PS viper..... I just started a grow journal, you can see what strains I've got going on. It's under "Night Shadow" 
Thanks Again!!!


----------



## SherwoodForest (Mar 17, 2010)

Sorry about that, I was high as hell when I was pouring over those pics!  And btw, I'm glad you showed the inside of that switch timer box, I am going to build one just like it. I saw they wanted like 3 bills for one on one site, and I can build it for around 100 judging from your pics.


----------



## mikeybtoken (Mar 18, 2010)

Hi Sherwood
No problem!!! Happens to me all the time......LOL!!!
I totally here you on building a timer box vrs paying for one. I bet that you can build the very same thing for even less than 100 bills. That switch is the only part that you might have to search around for, but I'm sure that you can order it. 
I thought the very same thing as soon as I opened that thing up. I highly recomend building one vrs. buying one. There is just not that much to it!!! I bought it with my whole set up as a package deal and at the time I thought that it would act as a sub panel, which it does, but not in the way that I thought it would.
If you need a parts # off of that switch I'd be happy to get it off of it for you. Good luck!!!

Peace MBT


----------



## SherwoodForest (Mar 18, 2010)

mikeybtoken said:
			
		

> If you need a parts # off of that switch I'd be happy to get it off of it for you.
> 
> Peace MBT


Siemens 42BF15AF contactor $31.95


----------

