# To backcross or not to backcross - that is the question!



## White WidowMaker (Apr 20, 2009)

For my breeding program, I was thinking:  do I really want to backcross a plant from a seed with its mother (current ALPHA FEMALE from seed) since I don't know what her mother or father were like of this alpha female?

Would it be better to take my females clones and grow them out sinsemilla, but to start the breeding program by germinating the seeds that I have produced from the ALPHA MALE and ALPHA FEMALE and produce a next generation of seeds, and then from this generation backcross into the parents since then I know the genetics of of the parents?

To clarify:  

1.) I received WW seeds from seedbank.
2.) I grew these to produce males and females.
3.) I chose best male and best female to produce seeds on one bud.
4.) Take these NEXT GENERATION of seeds (now that I know characteristics of both father and mother since I grew them from seed) and start afresh germinating from seed.
5.) Then take the best female clone from this NEXT generation and clone her for breeding.  Then take the best male and breed more seeds with her.  
6.) And then and only then start the backcross?

Any knowledgable opinions?


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 20, 2009)

What is your goal?


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 20, 2009)

to produce good bud.

I figure the best chances of having the special male genetics is if I use seeds from the ALPHA MALE AND ALPHA FEMALE.  This way I have equal amounts of both genetics.

If I take the seeds and cross it with the alpha female only, then I don't know who her father or mother was.

Do you agree it is best to control things this way?


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 20, 2009)

> Do you agree it is best to control things this way?


So, let me make sure I understand, you made F2 from a pack of ww. You still have the mother that you used to make the F2. You want to know if crossing F2xF2 or motherxF2 will give you better results, right?

If so, i'm going to say bxing to the mother just because you like her and she represents what you want. If you do F2xF2 you're going to have to find a mom and a dad with traits that you like. If you do motherxF2 you'll only have to find an ideal male. Thats just my opinion though.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 21, 2009)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> So, let me make sure I understand, you made F2 from a pack of ww. You still have the mother that you used to make the F2. You want to know if crossing F2xF2 or motherxF2 will give you better results, right?
> 
> If so, i'm going to say bxing to the mother just because you like her and she represents what you want. If you do F2xF2 you're going to have to find a mom and a dad with traits that you like. If you do motherxF2 you'll only have to find an ideal male. Thats just my opinion though.


 
Yes, if F1 is the pack of seeds, and if F2 is the seeds produced from the first pollenation, then yes.  Yes, I have one clone of the mother and possibly 3 more from her that I took last week (now on 7th day - waiting to see).

But if I cross F2xmother then I have less chances of the special male characteristics of the F2 seeds' father.  If I cross F2xF2 then both seeds (male and female) have both genetics of the father and mother and I have equal chances of both genetics.

If I cross the F2xmother then I know the genetics of the F2 (both mother and father), but I don't know the genetics of the mother's parents.

Thanks BBP, you helped to clarify - I just need to consider what to do.


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## ShecallshimThor (Apr 21, 2009)

do you have space for both maybe? just to be able to watch the diff phenos at the samew time would be good no?


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 21, 2009)

ShecallshimThor said:
			
		

> do you have space for both maybe? just to be able to watch the diff phenos at the samew time would be good no?


 
Unfortunately, no, not much space.  I have a closet, an outside area, and a window sill.  I heard they give medical marijuana licenses in my country, so I am investigating and if so, and if I can get one, then I will be able to grow many more plants both inside and outside and not fear arrest and imprisonment.


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## ozzydiodude (Apr 21, 2009)

Good Luck on medical marijuana licenses. If you get them. Play by all the rules, so as it not mess up, future people from getting theirs. One at a time and we will beat the gov't and all be legal..


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 21, 2009)

> not much space.


You def don't want to cross F2xF2 then. You'd need to grow at least 20 for a good pheno search. You might need to grow that many to find a good male to bx to the mother.

F1-Uniform and pretty much stable in characteristics. Very vigorous.
F2-wide variety of phenos. Tall plants, short plants, big leaves, skinny leaves, etc.


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## solarz (Apr 22, 2009)

IMHO you have a VERY wide goal in your "breading program".  The way i look at seed breeding is the same way i look at dog breeding.  You have to breed specifically for certain things in each generation.  You can't really try to fix/set a lot of different things in just one generation of breeding.  I can really explain this a lot more if its wanted, but like i said, this is just my opinion.  I hope you get what you are looking for though.


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 22, 2009)

> You have to breed specifically for certain things in each generation.


You should only breed for one trait, to simplify things, throughout the different generations until that trait is stabilized. For instance, if you're breeding for potency then that should be the only trait you're looking for until the trait is stabilized. You shouldn't look for potency in the F2, color in the F3, taste in the F4, etc. First you stabilize the potency then move on to other traits through back or out crossing.


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## Tater (Apr 22, 2009)

What is an alpha male plant?  For that matter what is an alpha female plant?


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 22, 2009)

I think he means his best male and female Tater.


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## solarz (Apr 22, 2009)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> You should only breed for one trait, to simplify things, throughout the different generations until that trait is stabilized. For instance, if you're breeding for potency then that should be the only trait you're looking for until the trait is stabilized. You shouldn't look for potency in the F2, color in the F3, taste in the F4, etc. First you stabilize the potency then move on to other traits through back or out crossing.


Right, that is what i was saying...and thats why i stated that i could go further into it if needed/wanted.  I understand totally what you are saying BBP....i was just giving dude the "quick" version.


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## ozzydiodude (Apr 22, 2009)

This out of HT by HT Cultivation Team

"Backcrossng is the process of breeding the offspring of a mother with that same mother. Breeders do this in extreme cases (i.e., when no males or seeds exist.
This can also be done to bring old strains that only exist through the clone trade back into the genetic mainstream.

   To backcross a plant, a breeder takes a female clone(A) and crosses in with a male from another strain(B). The resulting seeds are planted, and a male is chosen from this group(A x B). The original female clone is then backcrossed with this male(Ax[AxB]). In this case a new hybrid of the breed has been created. This process is repeated until the breeder is satisfied that he or she has recreated the strain or come as clode as possible to the original.
   The best way to achive this goal is to have extreme patience, allowing for as many backcrosses as needed to relicate the A strain's genetics and phase out as much of the B strain as possible. Many breeders will get into exponential numbers af backcrossing but the results are well worth the time spent if it means resurrecting an old favorite from near extinction."


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 22, 2009)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> You def don't want to cross F2xF2 then. You'd need to grow at least 20 for a good pheno search. You might need to grow that many to find a good male to bx to the mother.
> 
> F1-Uniform and pretty much stable in characteristics. Very vigorous.
> F2-wide variety of phenos. Tall plants, short plants, big leaves, skinny leaves, etc.


 
well, as it is, there was a wide variety of phenos the in pack of seeds from the seedbank.  who knows from how many different plants those seeds came from?  at least I know the seeds I produced are all from the same parents.

yes, BBP, your clarification of the Tater's question is right:  by Alpha, I mean the ones I have chosen from each sex.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 22, 2009)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> This out of HT by HT Cultivation Team
> 
> "Backcrossng is the process of breeding the offspring of a mother with that same mother. Breeders do this in extreme cases (i.e., when no males or seeds exist.


 
This makes it sound as if backcrossing is a less-than-optimum method of breeding.  I also wondered why I kept reading here people saying they were backcrossing.

Now it seems better to me to take seeds from two plants that I produced and start with those seeds (i.e. F2xF2) to produce more seeds and each time find the best alpha-male and alpha-female to produce NON-BACKCROSS.


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## ozzydiodude (Apr 22, 2009)

The way I understand this is backbreeding is to reinforce a trait that is liked or  prefered in the mother the farther you take backbreeding the more likely the seeds will be like the original Mother plant with the original male genes or traits bred out.


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## White WidowMaker (Apr 23, 2009)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> The way I understand this is backbreeding is to reinforce a trait that is liked or prefered in the mother the farther you take backbreeding the more likely the seeds will be like the original Mother plant with the original male genes or traits bred out.


 
In that case, first I need to produce a female with the traits I saw in the alpha-male used for breeding using the seeds I produced.  Thanks!  That does it...breeding program has to wait until this fall / winter when I germinate the seeds.  Now is the time to take this female clone and her sisters (if they succeed) and grow some sinsemilla and try to keep cloning for perpetual harvest.

OZZYDIODUDE, did your clones work?  You said 7-10 days.  I started mine at the same time and the 3 are still alive, green, in coke-bottle humidity domes, but I am still waiting to see new growth to know for sure they took.


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## ozzydiodude (Apr 23, 2009)

Hey WWM I had to  retake clones. Sunday my brother was at the house while I was away, He was get the plants to go outside use to the sun, and put my clones out also. Only 3 are alive but rooted one of each length, go figure. they all were rooted(roots out of holes) in 8 days.


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