# Curious...



## can of ownage (Sep 25, 2006)

im a bit curious as to this and im new so please take that under a bit of considerstion...
this is basically aimed at stoney or kade and astra or hick or....any that can help really but ive been thinking of things and logic isnt something to use here but... how do u come up with a strain.... lets sayi have a nice bb and white widow on the side and wanted to make a blue widow... how would that come about to be... a logical thing to think would be just to breed them and boom but thats not the case... it would just be a bb and white widow hybrid... so how is blue widow to be? would creating blue widow just be a issue of stablizing a strain? or would it be more on the topic of being a different plant altogether with the only thing being similar the same lineage of sorts?... 

so in short if a bb x ww = bb and ww hybrid.... what would be blue widow?
does that mean just stablizing a strain to be of a consistant phenotype? or is the genotypes what realy make the strain with a stable pheno being a plus?...considering that plant life is significantly shorter than a human life phenos and genos should be able to be determined within a relatively short time ( compared to a human life) and with a bit of effort, the most hardest being to identify the phenos and attributes u like of a plant.Find a plant u like, and find another of the same strain and just traces its genetics down....

i hope i dont sound like a completely moron when i saw its easy but actions r alot harder than words( easier said than done) but i would like an explanation as to what makes a new strain a strain and not a hybrid... im realy bent on getting me some blue wid... with onlybb and white wid to work with this is going to take a while and be hard but im just really curious.. thanx to any1 who answers in advance.. stoney do u have an aim sn or something? i kinda need help with some hydro advice and u seem to be very knowledgable by what ive read. id love the 1 on 1 time for some of my dumber questions.. thanx astra and hick and every1 else for helping me out.. imjust trying to get some basic knowledge down and trying to skip my trial and error time by harnessing yours... ( sorry) but u guys have experience and i need some.. so plz just shed some light on me if u can thanx again guys
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## KADE (Sep 25, 2006)

I'm not a pro at what you are talking about... but you are right.

You need to keep breeding the strains together until you have it so the seeds, when grown, always show traits of the 2 strains. Like you said "stablizing a strain to be of a consistant phenotype"


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## Mutt (Sep 25, 2006)

Dang man.....ok for one gotta new section for this question. "advanced tactics or somethin". but wow man, great question. 
Let me begin by sayin sorry I' stoned outa my gourd, but will try with this one. Prolly edit come mornin. but I'll give it shot right now.
No its not that simple you are correct. In my *un-educated* opinion:
BBXWW does not equal Blue Widow. It would equal a BbxWW hybrid. To do this you would have to grow many males and females.
Take the best and figure out what traits you like best. After SEVERAL grows find the ones with the most stable traits and back cross (inbreed)the "keepers". but to be watchful of any "hidden" traits....such as hermaphrodites. They can pop up on ya after backcrossing. Survival instinct of herb is wild man. But during this process, it may take years and years...plus a lot of research....plus a lot of heartbreak to find what your looking for. So best of luck man. Hit good ole DJ Short and Soma reads plus many others and figure out what you wanna do. IMHO.


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## can of ownage (Sep 26, 2006)

sorry i didnt know that there was a section up about this stuff but i just wanted to know.. i rmemeber when we had the propagation discussion and there wasnt a place for that either so im sorry but....doing well in skool and having science as a freind helps alot the only problem is the sheer genotypical and phenotyical possiblities and how a geno wont always gaurntee a pheno... not only that but a strain that is good to the general public (as public as public is going to be at least) in terms of desireable traits....so i guess with all of this what would be the most desireable traits among a blue widow?while i do understand thatgrowth and such would be important, would an overall efeect be better than the difficulties of growing it?.. im going to make this into a hobby pretty soon... just thinking of things to use for the smoking public...if every1 has a different preference for their smoke how would a strain that is a hybrid to u wouldnt be a blue wid to some1 else?.... so for my question and for my hobby, what traits would be some of your prefered characteristics? when i do things i wanna do them right.... so idk any helpful hints will be appreciated.. anything having to do with breeding or personal opinon.. still waiting for smokey and astra to see if they see this and mutt.... KEEP SMOKING IT.... its the only thing that truly keeps us sane

also have some questions on hydro but i guess ill wait for smokey on those... hit me up with a post when u can smokey...waiting for astra too...hes got alot of experience and a mind to hand out so idk waiting to see what he says..

thanx guys


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## astra007 (Sep 26, 2006)

great question and not easily explained and im only a non professional.  but here goes nothin.  any1 feel free to jump in, but on topic please.  you start with a b/b  and a w/w  which are recognized as true breeding strains.  but are they?  i have seen different pheno's appear from a w/w seed mother even after 20 years.  so the first thing you have to do is get a b/b and a w/w from a recognized breeder of each.  this could be d.j. shorts b/b and mr. nice w/w.  then you grow them up chosing 1 female and 1 male of each.  you put the male b/b and the w/w female in a sealed room and let them do their thing.  and you put the female b/b and the male w/w into another room and do the same.

now you have to plant the seed of each union to judge the finished product of each cross.  growing out a male and female fully of each room and collecting the seed again.  you now have 2 generations of seed and 4 possible pheno's hopefully.

now you will choose just what you are looking for; taste, yeild, size of plant height, lenght of flower period, THC content, ect.......  the best way is choose the best male and the best female and scrap the rest.


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## astra007 (Sep 26, 2006)

ok now ya have 2 doms that you have chosen for their traits.  keep the seed from the 2 previous generations but not the plants.  you now have hybrids to work with of yer choice.  again you breed them to see if they breed true.  consistant pheno's.  alot of breeders now switch to clone as the clone is always the same and experiment with them.  i dont; i grow another batch of seed and now these are 3rd generation seed and i grow out 25 of each looking for the same consistency.  i may have to grow out 5 or 6 generations of seed stock to get what i want at 13 - 15 weeks each x 6 generations = 1.5 years to now get what i can say is a blue widow hybrid.  and now i have to breed it - inbred - back for a couple of more generations to see if it breeds true.  so 2 years to get my version of the blue widow.

then maybe the taste is not quite what ya want so ya check yer notes of the previous 7 generations and choose a seed to grow up - actually 2; 1 male and 1 female.  and crossbreed this 2 yer blue widow and here we go again.................


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## astra007 (Sep 26, 2006)

sweettooth is 11 years old and still being worked on.  so are all the seriousseed strains.  juicy fruit is on its 3rd go around with cross breeding.

NL came from somewhere - it was a created strain, most likely a hindu kush and an unknown hybrid.  i actually know the breeder and her family, the original NL was a BC strain taken to holland in clone form.  but the NL was grown for 15 years over and over again.  it breeds true.  thus it itself became a "breeder" strain.  i have an outdoor b/b that i have crossed back to sumthin.........   hehehe to create a mold and bug resistant hybrid that grows good in BC and higher altitudes.  its a sativa dom.  it would probably die quick in california.  but if i wanted b/b to grow inside, i would buy d.j. shorts b/b which has been bred over the years to become 80% indica.  but 1 of my b/b would equal 5 - 6  of any of todays indoor.


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## KADE (Sep 26, 2006)

Thas y ''g-13'' is so sketchy... suppositly one cutting was stolen... which means it would have to be cloned indefinately or it'll be lost. I'm sure it could be done... and if u did have the real thing u'd want to keep it...  Someone within a few hours of me says he has some.. i'm gonna check it out.. see how potent it is.


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## astra007 (Sep 26, 2006)

uh, huh.  dont waste yer money.  i did.  bloody crap weed.  thats why they mix it with haze or hashplant.  its medium THC and scraggly.  remember this was an EXPERIMENTAL strain and yer right - clone only fer original.  and every tom, **** and harry find a bagweed, then try to call it G13, come and get it suckers.  the G13 x hASHPLANT IS NOT BAD.


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## KADE (Sep 26, 2006)

I haven't talked to the guy personalyl... i just hear it through the grapevine. It is worth taking an hours drive for.


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## can of ownage (Sep 27, 2006)

thanx astra and mutt for the information... i would have to find some information about cannabis as a whole to go about this intelligently. i believe mutt made a different thread about this but i asked pretty much the same question.... couldnt u veg a "promising" mother get a clone and see if thats good? if u do this and get lucky enuff to have what u r looking for , couldnt u just take the clone and finds its genos that way u would know what they would be for the traits that your looking for?I dont know enuff about it but dont plant genes work alot the way human genes do? by that id like to make an example...


if a person had blue eyes it would only mean 1 thing among many... that his eye alleles r homogenious... they would have to be since its known that it is a recessive allele ( blue eye color ) and brown is dominate over blue .. with green being recessive as well.... so the genes for his eye color would be:

(blue,blue) {your have 2 genes to every pheno... for any1 who didnt know}

so wouldnt that also work in this case for plants?lets say we wanted a plant with a strong taste for some reason...and for the sake of discussion lets use this:

Berry>lime>orange { just an example}

if u had 2 plants u wanted to breed for a lime taste then wouldnt u initially be taking a step into the unknown unless u KNEW without a doubt it was a true breeding plant with certain genos? by that i mean if u where to cross a strong tasting lime plant with another strong tasting lime plant trying to get a better tasting lime (still strong) u would have to deal with unknown genos since its all under the same characteristics.. by that i mean this:

lets say u cross the 2 limes... u dont know what the genos might be... hence we will try to keep all genos in mind:

Male(X,X)                            since we know berry (for this example) is dominate over lime it cant have a berry geno, or it would,taste berry like.but the problem would occur that it could be a Male (lime,lime) or a Male(lime,orange) { lime is dominate over orange }

Female(X,X)                         same with the male it could be a lime,lime homo or a lime,orange hetero..

if we cross the two... well just try to keep up with this if u can....

for those of u who havent really paid attention in biology u cross genes 1 at a time from each parent for every gene u would want to find the results of...so here it would be a simple 2 allele cross... if u want more phenos u would add the alleles to the ones already existing.... ill try and explain this later on... just bear with me

                  M(lime,lime) * F(lime,lime)       {simple it would breed true}

                BUT if it wasnt true.....
       M(lime,lime) * F(lime,orange)   {would still breed true BUT}
                                                 {would mess up the "trueness"}
outcomes: (lime,lime) (lime,orange) (lime,lime) (lime,orange)
genes: 1/2 (lime,lime) 1/2 (lime,orange)
phenos: ALL would taste like lime....lime is dominate over orange...

so u would have some plants that all taste of lime but not all r true breeds anymore and would cause problems with future breeding...assuming u guys all know what i mean so far ill keep going with no explanations..... if u have a question ask and ill answer to the best of my knowledge of what **I, MYSELF** believe the relationship between phenos and genos behave like... this is considering human genes and plant genes work somewhat the same.....very basic biology...​


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## astra007 (Sep 27, 2006)

a clone is an exact duplicate of what you took it from.  a seed is from the union of 2 separate plants.  i like to pick from the finished flowered plant. so i always have a clone on hand of her just in case.  and you can seed a female clone.


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## can of ownage (Sep 27, 2006)

ok to clarify everything ill post again what this example is using and will just work the mathematics for the rest explanation and questions r at the end...sorry if this is off topic or doesnt belong here... i iwould appreciate a move to the thread to proper place if its not...thanx guys..

Some terms used here   {if u didnt know}

Pheno=Phenotype-overall result due to genes.
Geno=Genotype-the actual code for a pheno
Gene- the genetic code found in dna that makes things the way the are
Allele-one half of the 2 required genes to make a pheno(phenotype)
Homo=Homogenious-having 2 of the same alleles for a geno
Hetero=Heterogenious=having different alleles for a pheno


berry>lime>orange  {order of dominace}

if we cross unknown parents one being male and berry tasting so M(X,X) the other being a female with a lime taste F(X,X)

              M(X,X)*F(X,X)                 parents

results:some berry tasting offspring and some lime offspring...about half and half or 50% for each pheno

we can fill a gap in the parents genos with the most logical being
              M(Berry,X)*F(lime,X)
we still dont know what the secondary alleles might be and in order to know we would have to breed the second generation with even more confusion...but in the end itll all be worth it since the second generation has a mix of unknown alleles we will realistically be looking at probably anywhere from 2 to 4 phenos ( mutations r not taken into consideration)

if the third generation shows that some came out with a orangey taste then we could take a blind guess as to what parent has what and keep breeding to find out but if they only came out with again some limey some berry thhen its a question about breeding with another plant till u knew what the alleles where... im not saying its easy or fast but once u know itll be easy to keep track of offspring and of how and what phenos will be tranferred in breeding along with a %.... which makes stablizing a strain ALOT easier than simply guessing.....well take both aproaches....

if u had just limey and berry then.....that means your parents dont have any orange alleles and as such its just a matter of breeding to know who has what....

M(Berry,X)*F(lime,X)    parents thus far...things get confusing after this

results:   phenos   50% berry 50% lime would mean a simple thing...with trial and error on paper rather than time u can find out more with just a lil more time rather than years using a crossing table we would guess till we find what we had as results for the offspring we know the primary alleles so take a guess at the secondary ( the X)
                       F
                lime      lime
 M   berry Beli       Beli          Be=Berry li=lime {2 alleles to a gene...}
      lime   lili          lili

this guess works wonderfully withe the genos being true lime but hetero berry...while the phenos where 50/50 this guess also results in 50/50 phenos....so an educated guess would be the parents where
     M(Berry,lime)*F(lime,lime)    
             HOWEVER
if u where to keep crossing for possibiliies this would also work...( cross them the way i did above...with M being the males 2 alleles and F being the females 2 alleles....
     M(Berry,orange)*F(lime,lime) would also work.... and if u go further.....
     M(Berry,lime)*F(lime,orange) would also work...so it would take a bit of breeding 2 sets of 2 parents and taking a lil bit of breeding to see or if u had a controlled variable ( u KNEW the (X,X) or 2 alleles of another plant its would be easy)
lets say we had the controlled variable (orange,orange)... this would make things hella easier as all u would have to do to find the males alleles is breed them and check the offspring...u have to have clones for this to work as u would have to have stable alleles
    M(Berry,lime) {our guess} *    F(orange,orange) {controlled variable}

if offspring where ALL either limey tasting or berry tasting then the M(Berry,lime) guess for the parent was dead on...if u had orange tasting then u would instantly know the guess was wrong but u now know that the parent was a M(Berry,orange)...congrats u now have 1 parent indentified


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## can of ownage (Sep 27, 2006)

i know astra im getting there buddy lol... if u use seeds to keep breeding then finding the alleles to a parent will be difficult ....almost impossible since the alleles in the seeds is always changing... even tho the combos r limited when u open up the phenos that u want to 2,3, or even 4 the possiblities become sooo huge that the chances of u finding out the alleles is almost impossible... mind as well play the lottery with that one...if u keep the parents veged and use a clone things will be much easier to predict... let me finish this quik and see if u agree....by the way u would have to clone the mother and father be4 they flowered anyhow to get this done...u have to clone and seed them so u r rigth about that astra and its a good thing u do that... keep the original mother and father in veg if u can...


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## can of ownage (Sep 27, 2006)

in either case u can take the now identified parent and check your observations to the first offspring of the parents and check it that way....remember in the first gen there was no orange taste.... so considering u got no orange taste in the controlled variable crosss, that would automatically identify the mother as a lime,lime since if she had a berry allele it would make her berry tasting and if she had orange in there that would make the first gen have SOME orange taste in there.....now that u have the 2 parents identified it could be used to idenitfy other possible breeding plants and even to get an out come that u would like already predetermined that way u could focus on the strength of the taste....(if u want it a little weaker or a bit stronger).......since phenos can vary even if they are all berry tasting (weaker or stronger taste)... lets use an identified plant to identify an unknown female that tastes like lime...

M(X,X)* F(X,X)  {since the mother is lime tasting u know lime is there}
M(X,X) * F(l,X)  is our new guess.it would be smart to use a plant that has  recessive genes to identify other plants since a dominate allele wouldnt help at all so lets say we have idenitfied a male(o,o){orange}

M(o,o) * F(l,X) would be a wise choice...

if the off spring where all limey then the unknown female HAS to be (lime,lime)...if u had some orange in the mix then the female would be (lime,orange)... when identifing unknown plants its recommended that u grow as much as u can of the new seeds... 10 is good 100 is recommended and 1000 would be perfect.. take the percentage down of the phenos and then try a paper cross of the alleles to match your results as much as possible...


i hope this explain as to my thought on how a plant can be bred... the only problem is that alleles in fact are not known whether which ones r dominate over the others... and this would take years to research...but would greatly help breeders the world around with a comprehensive guide to alleles....i dont have the capabilities to research this and probably never will...{i live in the states}... but if u could find the dominace over what phenos u want this would make identifing a plant simple with the identity of the alleles being found out no latter than 4th gen with educated and thought out actions.... knowning the alleles of the phenos u want would  make making your perfect hybrid easy... new strains could be thought out easily since with the predicableness of knowing the alleles and using that to stablize a strain by making its alleles homogenious would make things go by alot faster and easier...but this is all if plant genes work like human genes do... i dont know why they wouldnt... and this is also taking into consideration that mutations r either exculded or rejected from  future breeding... anyhow this is my opinon on how i would work with cannabis...
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## can of ownage (Sep 27, 2006)

so my question is first... does cannabis work like human genes? do u always have 1 singular taste or pheno or do u sometimes get a mix of 2 phenos... if so how often? if its low i suspect it might just be minor mutation... second does any1 know of any dominace or recessiveness of any traits or any1 i might be able to talk to about this? and thirdly is there a list of traits that a strain should have to meet the requirement to be of that strain?... like blueberry tastes like blueberries and so on....thanx for the info guys and any feedback is appreciated​


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## astra007 (Sep 27, 2006)

ok bud, here is the problem fer me: i failed biology in high school, i was an english major and history.  35 years ago.  i do hands on "breeding"  not "book" breeding.  you understand?  maybe you should go to www.breedbay.co.uk  and ask there as it is a breeders forum.  not trying to get rid of you but this is "over my head" so to speak.  ya lost me after the pheno.  i do selective breeding on the seeds i like and grow/give away the rest.  i do not have a lab nor a lot of space.  neither do most of my friends that play with our outdoor breeds.  i picked and grow the original blueberry that d.j. shorts worked on way back before he left BC to work for dutch passion.  what yer posting makes sense to me but...............


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## can of ownage (Sep 27, 2006)

well astra i do know that most *not all* people who grow do so without the book theory...but ive paid my dues to education and its worked out for me...thanx for the link bud but at the same time i would like any1 who reads this to understand me....

i lost u at the phenos? explain what ur a lil lost on and ill try to explain... id love to teach some1 something....

phenos are the overall result....whether that be berry tasting or rainbow colored leaves....its what genos ur looking at...

example... if u had blue eyes your geno could be (blue,blue) or (blue,green) or  hell even (blue,any color u want here) as long as u knew the order of dominace, u could find the pheno...

lets say      brown>blue>green>red>purple>yellow>rainbow {example}

the pheno would be blue eyes so long as nuthing dominate over blue was in the 2 alleles ({X,X} are the two alleles)... however lets say u had a brown eye color... since brown is the ultimate in terms of dominance that means u could have (brown,brown){true or homogenious as its called} or (brown,blue) {mixed alleles is why strains arent stable and consistant... u dont want this..called heterogenious} or u could have (brown,green) or (brown,red) or (brown,purple) or (brown,yellow) or (brown,rainbow){joke its an example people} but the pheno would always be brown since it is the dominate one in the 2 alleles....u could never have a blue eye color with the alleles(blue,brown) becuz.....well brown is dominate over blue...{dominate is usually paired first}........hope that helps a little bit astra....this is why some plants might carry a gene for hermie and it never show up until u breed it with a certain plant... recessive genes provide that "surprise" or more basically put, that:"*** IS THIS" genetics in a plant.


 if u want to learn a lil bit of biology dont be afraid to ask astra it never hurts... im not saying your method of selection is wrong.. in fact by picking the best of what u want and tossing the rest, your getting rid of no good genos which is good...i just believe that if u knew the genos of all your plants....breeding would be HELLA easier...or if u wanted to change something slight like if the taste isnt exactly like u want as u said, it would be easier to make that change and then stablize the strain again to make it true and consistant.​


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## can of ownage (Sep 27, 2006)

as long as u understand what a pheno is and how it works the rest is easy...just a matter of being on the same page with terms..

phenos show what geno u have and genos are what alleles u have...
crappy plant = bad dominate genos.....u could have a good secondary allele {CRAP,GOOD} but if the crappy alleles r dominate over the good ones... u wont see the good ones without some selective breeding....this is why most commercially bought stuff is crap... they dont monitor anything just grow a male and female in a room, get seeds and the repeat.not saying its bad cuz u could get lucky but face the facts, most of the stuff u buy off the street sucks bicho...or D*** for those not native to spanish​


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## seattle420 (Sep 27, 2006)

oh wow, a new strain!


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## can of ownage (Sep 27, 2006)

forum seems to be too much about pictures and talking about how much they like them to actually get any info that would satisfy my tastes.. mayb its just that the info is hidden sooooo well there....idk​


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## astra007 (Sep 27, 2006)

hey man. i love your explanations and yer terminology.  it fills in a lot of gaps fer me, instead of "thing of a jig" and "you know what thingy" .  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   keep going strong, i will follow.  i just dont know how to explain some stuff as it gets so repititive but in different rooms and with different seed batches not to mention generations.  i mean ya start with 2 but by the 4th gen you could have 256 variations.


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## skunk (Sep 28, 2006)

can of ownage i am very impressed with your enthusiasm and seemingly eagerness to learn more . but with the exception of my uneducated guess , i think you know little bit more than your leading us to believe . hey in my personal opinion i think your already on your way to be a master grower and breeder . if your not already and just came into this forum to trick us lol.  jorge cervatez thats who i believe you to be in disqueis.lol.  but if not cheers to you for your eagerness to learn . gl in your quest. if you really have 1 .


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## astra007 (Sep 28, 2006)

yup, my thoughts eggactly.  but he is a winner aint he.  coming in silent then gathering momentum.................


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## can of ownage (Sep 29, 2006)

lol im no master grower... like i said this is all from paying attention in class... i do happen to like learning more about things that catch my attention and i do want to further myself in this area of interest but it seems hard since im in the states.... mayb itd be easier if i was out there in holland... Thanx for all the compliments btw...I only know things in scientific terms and so im sorry if i loose u guys and/or dont understand very simple things all you guys do.. its just we ride on a different set of ideas and backrounds...Just started smoking not too too long ago actually my girl got me into it and ever since its just kinda caught my interest ( can u blame me? ) and so ive been reading this forum up and down for things that catch me and been adding my 2 cents in here and there to make everythin a lil easier to understand... Well guys thanx and everything lol if i ask noobish questions now and then dont be surprised ... Im not sure all around  on everything having to do with cannabis so ... dont make me sound liek more than i am lol... ill keep trying to post things here and there and thanx for everything , later guys​


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## skunk (Sep 29, 2006)

are you sure your not trying to tell us that you might not have that science book handy everytime you show up here lol. and ps if you want things to be simple plant a seed and water and fertilize on a regular basis and BAM there you go . no need for the extras. (not trying to be a smart ass but that is honestly all you need to know in order to get your final product. exspecially being a newbie . learn to grow 1 plant at a time and slowly learn the rest. no need to try to be a scientist in 1 day.


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## can of ownage (Sep 29, 2006)

no i know all this by memory lol i dont need a book but rather just to read it once lol and yea i know i wanna grow bagseed be4 i actually get to anything better so its ok i know what u mean
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## astra007 (Sep 29, 2006)

no problem mon, ask away.  astra's here to help.  hehehe


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