# Trimming / Budding Experiment



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 15, 2009)

ok, so I was a little bored tonight, so I took one plant of the 4 flowering girls and trimmed off all of her fan leaves (only 4 & 1/2 weeks into 12/12).  

I want to experiment to see if it is better to have the budding sites receive the light, or if the fan leaves are the important parts.  After all, the flowers do have green leaves to do photosynthesis, and from my experience it is those buds at bottom which receive the least light that are the smallest.

So why not trim off the fan leaves, let more light in, and see which plants produce the biggest buds:  the 3 that have not been trimmed at all, or the one that has all fan leaves trimmed and the only green is the buds and her spear leaves.

We will see.


----------



## tester (Dec 15, 2009)

I would like to see the outcome of this


----------



## leafminer (Dec 15, 2009)

You certainly will! That plant is going to stop budding and just sit there.
The buds at the bottom aren't smaller just because there is less light. It is because they are a long way down from the meristem and getting less hormones, nutrients, etc.


----------



## BBFan (Dec 15, 2009)

That would be great if you could post some pics to show how the plant does compared to the other 3.

Guaranteed though that the question will come up again in another month or two.

With pics- maybe we can get it made into a sticky.  Keep us posted.  Thank you for your sacrifice.


----------



## cmd420 (Dec 15, 2009)

I'm so sorry!
sorry that you didn't post before doing this....

here's the deal...

your buds will not really grow anymore...

they will not really get anymore dense....

they will not get much bigger


you have pretty much stopped all growth for the rest of the plant's life...

I need to see pics, but just a guess is that you will probably get less than an ounce from that plant..

*I did this..exactly what you did and exactly when you did it..*

*I was an idiot though cuz I did it to more than one plant and screwed my whole harvest...*(at least you had the sense not to do _that_)

I got about 2 ounces under 2000w..._totally sweet, huh_?


You took all the growth factories (fan leaves)....buds don't really need light..

the fan leaves do .....to supply them with growth

I'm totally not trying to be harsh and I hope your experience isn't anything like mine..

post some pics for us to see...


----------



## FA$TCA$H (Dec 15, 2009)

:yeahthat:


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 15, 2009)

While there are some things that can be experimented with (flushing, molasses) and are up for debate, there are some things that we know to be a fact and are not really debatable.  Any book on marijuana botany will tell you that the bulk of photosynthesis takes place through the big fan leaves.  You need them for bud production.  The little sugar leaves on your buds are not nearly enough leaf surface.  Your plant will certainly suffer.

Next time you are bored, may I suggest donating some time to someone less fortunate...


----------



## ASEgrower (Dec 15, 2009)

unlike some others I appluade you for doing this!  Hopefully with pictures you can put an end to the "trim fan leaves" debate that crops up here.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 15, 2009)

ASEgrower said:
			
		

> unlike some others I appluade you for doing this!  Hopefully with pictures you can put an end to the "trim fan leaves" debate that crops up here.



LOL--He isn't the first person here to have tried this--we had someone do this a while ago.  We already really know the outcome.  We are not going to change marijuana botany here.


----------



## zem (Dec 15, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> While there are some things that can be experimented with (flushing, molasses) and are up for debate, there are some things that we know to be a fact and are not really debatable.  Any book on marijuana botany will tell you that the bulk of photosynthesis takes place through the big fan leaves.  You need them for bud production.  The little sugar leaves on your buds are not nearly enough leaf surface.  Your plant will certainly suffer.
> 
> Next time you are bored, may I suggest donating some time to someone less fortunate...


:yeahthat: why not try some plants in the 24hour dark room plant it in wet cement and give it salt water and see what happens as well? there are facts and if you came to learn things it is to let you avoid any big mistakes, your grow was a long effort too bad you cut the leaves now, IMO thats not an experiment, how will these tiny bud leaves photosynthesize and give enough food for the buds to grow? simply no way and this is a fact


----------



## ASEgrower (Dec 15, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> LOL--He isn't the first person here to have tried this--we had someone do this a while ago. We already really know the outcome. We are not going to change marijuana botany here.


 
No one said he was the first, what I said was that if he takes pictures we will have something to show people when the question comes up again.  Of course we know what the outcome will be, but pictures are much better than words.


----------



## surreptitious (Dec 15, 2009)

some things i guess you have to learn on your own...i can understand that.

i would suggest if you were going to do this, do it, while it's still in veg and not halfway through bloom.

i'm experimenting with lollipopping right now, but i have a friend that lollipopped the hell out of one of his white rhinos.  he topped it and then trained it.  so he basically has 5 tops.  he then removed all the leaves and branches below the tops.  the tops were about 7-8 inches or so.  then he hit them with bushmasters.  then he veg'd for another 2 weeks.  now, he's half way through flowering now and i'll be visiting him next week.  i'm curious how they turned out.

his reasoning for doing this is he believes that the plant has so much potential energy and if you remove the stuff on the bottom where the "popcorn buds" will be then all the energy will be focused on the tops.  he says it will make it easier to trim when harvest comes...5 big buds vs a bunch of popcorn everywhere.

i'm also curious about the before and after picutres.  i hope it works out...


----------



## BBFan (Dec 16, 2009)

Anyone who has any experience growing any type of plant knows what the outcome is going to be. This is not an experiment to learn anything new or change the laws of nature. It could be a great tutorial however, as this question seems to come up nearly once or so every month.



			
				ASEgrower said:
			
		

> No one said he was the first, what I said was that if he takes pictures we will have something to show people when the question comes up again. Of course we know what the outcome will be, but pictures are much better than words.


 
Well said _ASEgrower_. With pics, perhaps _Strawberry Cough_ can help a few first timers from making a horrible mistake.

I too, applaud the effort.... a thread with pics showing the trimmed plant with her untrimmed sisters will be a great tool to new growers in teaching them how to effectively trim their plants- and the consequences of going too far!


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 16, 2009)

I apologize in advance, but I just could not help myself  .  Here is the link to another fan leaf trimming experiment:  http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38984

Hope everyone gets a chuckle out of this (as this is my intent).


----------



## FA$TCA$H (Dec 16, 2009)

OMG! thank you THG! my wife keeps lookin at me laughin and wipin the tears from my face. goin, what? so i showed her the pics. now were both holdin our sides laughin. $


----------



## Growdude (Dec 16, 2009)

ostpicsworthless:


----------



## Growdude (Dec 16, 2009)

Buds at the bottom of your plant dont get big because there at the bottom and because there are so many.

Remove the lower branches and the plants potential energy moves to form bigger but fewer main cola's

This does not mean butcher the crap outa them, just look at the main stem and the points cola's will form.

Look at the WW monsters and you will see that there was many branches left and were allowed to grow tall to form monster cola's, the biggest buds ive ever seen grown indoors. Y ou had to lift your arm up in the air as to not  drag the buds on the floor when going up the stairs.


----------



## kaotik (Dec 16, 2009)

i agree with everyone about leaving them..
though i have a friend who strips nearly everything right when he goes into bloom.. and he has huge yeilds.  i don't how he does it, always baffles me.
i'm not saying it's because of that (and i'd advise against stripping them) but it definatly doesn't stop/kill his plants.


----------



## OGKushman (Dec 16, 2009)

I don't see any evidence posted about this. That thread about cutting off all the leaves is "overkill" and off topic.

At the end of EVERY harvest I cut the top half of my plants after a week long flush (3/4) of my crop). I lower the lights, re- nuts at half strength, and let the bottoms go for a few days on nutes. 2 weeks later I get another ~4 oz's and the bud is as dense as the first cuts.

Anyone who has dealt with powdery mildew know the importance of getting light down low to the other leaves.

Let me assure you that cutting off some fan leaves won't make the plant stop growing. That's halarious.


----------



## zem (Dec 16, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I apologize in advance, but I just could not help myself  .  Here is the link to another fan leaf trimming experiment:  http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38984
> 
> Hope everyone gets a chuckle out of this (as this is my intent).


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## zem (Dec 16, 2009)

OGK the guy "experimenting" in this thread stated he has cut ALL his fan leaves 4 1/2weeks into flowering


----------



## BBFan (Dec 16, 2009)

OGKushman said:
			
		

> Let me assure you that cutting off some fan leaves won't make the plant stop growing. That's halarious.


 
No one is going to dispute that claim OGK- cutting off some fan leaves won't make the plant stop growing.

But if you read the original post in this thread you will see that _Strawberry Cough_ (the original poster) cut off *ALL *the fan leaves off of a flowering female plant leaving only the bud leaves.

You find that hilarious too?  Is it your position that the plant will keep growing without any fan leaves?

Selective harvesting as you describe is practiced by many growers.  Cutting off all fan leaves is another story.

No offense meant :hubba: .


----------



## OGKushman (Dec 16, 2009)

BBFan said:
			
		

> No one is going to dispute that claim OGK- cutting off some fan leaves won't make the plant stop growing.
> 
> But if you read the original post in this thread you will see that _Strawberry Cough_ (the original poster) cut off *ALL *the fan leaves off of a flowering female plant leaving only the bud leaves.
> 
> ...


 I misread the OP. 

My bad. LoL. I assumed he removed only the leaves at the main trunk. The palm frawns, biggest light blockers, people commonly remove when they are shading lower growth. 

Yea, you remove all of the leaves and you kill the plant. You can only remove leaves as fast as they can be replaced with new growth. Or the plant shrinks...lol


Ps. I am sorry if some of my posts sound mad...I am on an iPhone and can't add emoticons, do proper punctuation, and spell correctly :rofl: <----took like 2 min to do lol


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 16, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I apologize in advance, but I just could not help myself  . Here is the link to another fan leaf trimming experiment: http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38984
> 
> Hope everyone gets a chuckle out of this (as this is my intent).


 

LOL...It's been awhile since I got a good laugh from this thread, the guy who smoked all his WW before it ever produced!!  LMAO  And don't forget the wonderful male fan leaves!


----------



## Hick (Dec 16, 2009)

> I don't see any evidence posted about this. That thread about cutting off all the leaves is "overkill" and off topic.


the proof is in the pudding...http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38984
  "lolipopping" ....removing lower branches to allow more growth be directed to the tops, where the light is most beneficial, and removing the plants ability to photosynthesise by removing the fan leaves, also where light is most beneficial, are far far different methods and will result in different outcomes. 
Removing upper fan leaves that are recieving full light is NOT going to benefit the plant, not in any manner. Not only speaking from a couple of decades of experience, but from a common sense botanical point of view.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 16, 2009)

wow, what an active thread.  Thanks for the replies either in support or advice against this experiment.

I should clarify a few things:



			
				OGKushman said:
			
		

> My bad. LoL. I assumed he removed only the leaves at the main trunk. The palm frawns, biggest light blockers, people commonly remove when they are shading lower growth.



By "fan leaves" I do mean all the biggest palm frawn and light blockers on the main trunk, and all the secondary trunks that have resulted from topping.  By no means have I removed all the leaves.  There are still many dozens of leaves going up and down each trunk and branch.  I didn't cut off all leaves leaving only bud - I only removed all light blocking fan leaves



			
				kaotik said:
			
		

> i agree with everyone about leaving them..
> though i have a friend who strips nearly everything right when he goes into bloom.. and he has huge yeilds.  i don't how he does it, always baffles me.
> i'm not saying it's because of that (and i'd advise against stripping them) but it definatly doesn't stop/kill his plants.



Very interesting.  So it's not such a crazy idea.

If it is a fact that removing such leaves is harmful, then I would like to see photodocumentation comparing trimmed and non-trimmed plants.  If not available, then I will try to photodocument this experiment at the end and we will all see the results either good or bad.

ATTN:  HICK - your link is bad 404 not found error.


----------



## maineharvest (Dec 16, 2009)

Those big palm frawn leaves are the most important leaves on your plant.  You would be better off trimming all of the small ones and leaves the big boys.  

Can you post some pics so we know exactly what we are discussing here?


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 16, 2009)

maineharvest said:
			
		

> Those big palm frawn leaves are the most important leaves on your plant.



That's what we're going to find out.



			
				maineharvest said:
			
		

> You would be better off trimming all of the small ones and leaves the big boys.   Can you post some pics so we know exactly what we are discussing here?



I don't have a camera, but I will try to post pictures at the end, close to harvest for comparison.  Funny how after I only made one post some people were assuming I chopped off all leaves like that mgfcom.

Fan leaves = Fan leaves.

Spear (bud) leaves = Spear leaves.


----------



## Growdude (Dec 16, 2009)

Post pictures, dont wait we want to see what you did.


----------



## surreptitious (Dec 16, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I apologize in advance, but I just could not help myself  . Here is the link to another fan leaf trimming experiment: http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38984
> 
> Hope everyone gets a chuckle out of this (as this is my intent).


 
goddess...i had not read that thread.  i'm only on page 4.  i cannot imagine what will take up 3 more pages lol


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 16, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> So why not trim off the fan leaves, let more light in, and see which plants produce the biggest buds: the 3 that have not been trimmed at all, or the one that has all fan leaves trimmed and the only green is the buds and her spear leaves.


 
This would be my guess why they thought that


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 16, 2009)

Growdude said:
			
		

> Post pictures, dont wait we want to see what you did.


...as you say in the imperative tone...

ok.

No Camera.  Understand This Already!



			
				legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> This would be my guess why they thought that


So they thought I removed all leaves entirely because I said I removed only the fan leaves and left the buds and all her surrounding spear leaves.

Ah, yes.  I see the logic here...not.

Here's the best I can do for now:

My plants look similar in age / development to the following:

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/Gallery/showphoto.php?photo=4999

I trimmed off the big leaves as similar to the one in bottom left and top & top-right.  I trim leaves leaving as much stem as possible so that the plant has as much stored water/food as possible since I am removing their leaves (nutrient storage centers - which I compensate their loss with enough nutes).  The remaining stalk survived with all the leaves of that size as you see here.

This is what I am going to see if more direct light to these areas help, or if the plants prefer that the fan leaves receive the light, i.e. which is better?


----------



## maineharvest (Dec 16, 2009)

Id be willing to bet  everything I own that I already know the outcome to the experiment.  The three untrimmed plants out yeild the trimmed one.  Anybody want to bet against me?


----------



## cmd420 (Dec 16, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> Here's the best I can do for now:
> 
> My plants look similar in age / development to the following:
> 
> ...


 
it seems as if you were waiting for the answer you wanted...

the fan leaves are_ exactly what you shouldn't remove.._

whatever...at least have fun with it and let us know how it turns out..

good luck


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 16, 2009)

ostpicsworthless: 

Well, we believed that you took off all the fan leaves because that is what you said you did.  A pic only at harvest is also worthless.


----------



## BBFan (Dec 16, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> By "fan leaves" I do mean all the biggest palm frawn and light blockers on the main trunk, and all the secondary trunks that have resulted from topping. By no means have I removed all the leaves. There are still many dozens of leaves going up and down each trunk and branch. I didn't cut off all leaves leaving only bud - *I only removed all light blocking fan leaves*


 
I think you mean light *absorbing* fan leaves, not blocking.

Good luck with your experiment.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 16, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> the only green is the buds and her spear leaves.


 

I guess I should have narrowed your statement down to this small phrase for being the reason people believed it...and it's your phrase and experiment, I was only giving an answer to the questin you asked of why people would think you cut everything off...the reason is because you posted a statement like this.  

As far as you seeing the logic in that...NOT...(again your statement)

I could care less what you do with your plants...but if you type something on here and then 10 posts later try to change your tune..well you know people are not going to let that fly...you posted it, I just reminded you of what you typed, so don't get mad at me.

Quite frankly I see absultley NO logic being used by you at all in this little experiment of yours.  I don't really understand what you are out to proove, that has not already been tried time and time again with little to no success.  But hey it's your plants have fun bud!  Good Luck to you!


----------



## Growdude (Dec 17, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> ostpicsworthless:
> 
> Well, we believed that you took off all the fan leaves because that is what you said you did.  A pic only at harvest is also worthless.



Yea if you cant produce pics this isnt much of an experiment.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

It seems too many people here are vehemently angry that I have trimmed off all FAN leaves (I never said all leaves on the plant).

It seems some people are biased as to what should be the results (like recently in U.K. scientists fudging results to support their theories on climate change).

I am not biased,  which is why I am experimenting to see what are the results.  Whichever way is proven to be better by observation then I will grow that way for all plants the next time.

Though the experiment may be worthless to you without pics - my plants are right here in front of me, and I will see the results - so certainly the experiment is not worthless.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> ostpicsworthless:
> 
> Well, we believed that you took off all the fan leaves because that is what you said you did.  A pic only at harvest is also worthless.



Yes, this is what I did.  The FAN leaves.  Not ALL leaves.


----------



## leafminer (Dec 17, 2009)

_I am removing their leaves (nutrient storage centers - which I compensate their loss with enough nutes_

- this is not the way things work! Your 'nutes' are only precursor chemicals. The plant uses cellular respiration and photosynthesis to convert those into carbohydrates. Without leaves you can supply all the 'nutes' you want, the plant will be unable to use them.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 17, 2009)

Why are you posting on a public forum if you are not wanting to hear other peoples oppinions, you are the one that brought the whole subject up.  Do you honestly think that anyone cares enough to get angry about what you do with your grow???  That is laughable, you could water with sulfuric acid, and I could care less...it's not my grow.

If you say that you are doing an experiment on a public forum, then I guess we assume that you are doing the experiment for the benefit of the forum.  So to come back on later and act like you don't care what we think about your experiment, because it's for you anyway makes no sense...but then the experiment makes no sense either.

I think CMD was right, I think you were fishing for the answers that you wanted or some groupies to cheer you on and cosign your lack off logic, and when you didn't get the response you wanted you are then ready to gather up your toys and go home.

I envision already 4-6 weeks from now you popping back in here claiming that the plant you cut all the leaves off was the best yeilder...so that you can be some sort of plant mutilating hero....when in reality we all know what will happen.  I'm sure thats why people would like to see pics now...so they can compare it at harvest...if it makes it that long.  

Seems the only one sounding Angry on here is you, because no one is backing up your theory.  Good Luck to you!


----------



## Growdude (Dec 17, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> Though the experiment may be worthless to you without pics - my plants are right here in front of me, and I will see the results - so certainly the experiment is not worthless.




And we are supposed to just take your word on it?

Its not the experiment thats worthless, its this thread without pictures.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

leafminer said:
			
		

> _I am removing their leaves (nutrient storage centers - which I compensate their loss with enough nutes_
> 
> - this is not the way things work! Your 'nutes' are only precursor chemicals. The plant uses cellular respiration and photosynthesis to convert those into carbohydrates. Without leaves you can supply all the 'nutes' you want, the plant will be unable to use them.



Yes, I have learned this too.  

I would like to test this to see whether or not the fan leaves can be removed (to let in more light) to see if this works better, and if enough leaves are left (i.e. spear leaves up each stalk/branch) to provide these necessary nutrients as you explain.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> Why are you posting on a public forum if you are not wanting to hear other peoples oppinions, you are the one that brought the whole subject up.  Do you honestly think that anyone cares enough to get angry about what you do with your grow???  That is laughable, you could water with sulfuric acid, and I could care less...it's not my grow.
> 
> If you say that you are doing an experiment on a public forum, then I guess we assume that you are doing the experiment for the benefit of the forum.  So to come back on later and act like you don't care what we think about your experiment, because it's for you anyway makes no sense...but then the experiment makes no sense either.
> 
> ...



Well, yes, I thought I would offer the results of the experiment to the forum, but if you do go back and read some of the replies, after my one first post people were comparing me to mgfcom, saying I had chopped off all leaves when they had not seen pictures.

Too much assumption.

And then there is the issue of pre-prejudiced judgements.  Unless someone has actually tried this, how can they know what works better?  More light to the bud points or more fan leaves?  

Pictures may be available at harvest.  I will photograph the plants and say:  this is the trimmed girl, this are the remaining untouched girls.  Judge for yourself.  Not possible to photograph now.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 17, 2009)

LOL--I cannot believe that you think that you can change the biology of the plant:rofl: :rofl:

Jeez, borrow a camera.


----------



## BBFan (Dec 17, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> It seems too many people here are vehemently angry that I have trimmed off all FAN leaves (I never said all leaves on the plant).
> 
> I am not biased, which is why I am experimenting to see what are the results. Whichever way is proven to be better by observation then I will grow that way for all plants the next time.
> 
> Though the experiment may be worthless to you without pics - my plants are right here in front of me, and I will see the results - so certainly the experiment is not worthless.


 
Hello Strawberry Cough-

You're right- this thread did turn a little angry. I can only apologize for myself- so- I am sorry if I offended. Never was my intent. I hope you will stick around and post your results.

Since you had already done it (cut off the fans) when you posted here- it really didn't matter what we said or didn't say. It was already Fait Accompli- an accomplished fact. I understand you were not seeking advice- it was clearly stated in your original post.

I think though, that most of us would have liked to see pictures (I know you said you can't). It would have been of great benefit- perhaps made into a sticky- as the underlying question has been asked many times before.

I still hope we can follow along to see the plants progress relative to the other 3. I have my opinion on how this will end for you- so yes I'm biased. Still, it would be great to see the progress in pics, but short of that, your descriptions would be appreciated.

Have a great day!  It's all good!


----------



## zem (Dec 17, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> Unless someone has actually tried this, how can they know what works better?  More light to the bud points or more fan leaves?
> 
> Pictures may be available at harvest.  I will photograph the plants and say:  this is the trimmed girl, this are the remaining untouched girls.  Judge for yourself.  Not possible to photograph now.


:laugh: no thanks dude i dont wana try this great science "experiment" just get some pics in here already, dont you have a cellphone cam? borrow a cam or something


----------



## ASEgrower (Dec 17, 2009)

without pictures now and during and at the end, your experiment is bunk and will be ridiculed again when you post results.  Just sayin'.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Hello Strawberry Cough-
> 
> You're right- this thread did turn a little angry. I can only apologize for myself- so- I am sorry if I offended. Never was my intent. I hope you will stick around and post your results.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your kind words here.  Yes, too many "ugly" comments here.

It is ok if you have a "bias" (i.e. scientific theory / slash / hypothesis) of what will happen.  Science will either prove or disprove your hypothesis.  I am not set on either way - just whatever will produce the best buds.

But no need to make comments - it's more the intended verbal tone than the words which is offensive - such as these (1 example of quite a few):



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> LOL--I cannot believe that you think that you can change the biology of the plant:rofl: :rofl:
> 
> Jeez, borrow a camera.



I am not trying to change the biology of a plant.  I am experimenting to see what really is important (light or fan leaves).  In nature, the sun's light is so pervasive that it is everywhere.  With indoor light, many of the fan leaves block light from reaching many parts of the plant.

And your comment (and the way you say it) about a camera demonstrates you are (forgive me) arrogant American who thinks the whole world has the same standard of living as you.  Cameras are a luxury in my country, and especially in my socio-economic class, and not a common item as they are in USA with blackberries, 2 or 3 or more cars per household etc.

I thought women are supposed to be the more sensitive and kinder sex of the two...go figure.


----------



## zem (Dec 17, 2009)

wait im not in the U.S i see cams on all cell phones i mean really you could find digi cams with somalian tribes nowadays nobody is ridiculing we just want some pics sure you could get some


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 17, 2009)

Well strawberry I for one can relate to not haveing a camera, so not all of us americans have them.  I also never had a computer until a few months ago, or a cell phone until my daughter talked me into it...not that I couldn't affird it, I just never saw the point in haveing any of them...I'm a little old fashioned I guess...now that I have the comp, and cell, I would like to get a camera to, to post pics of my grows, I understand how it is.

I think people just want to see the results, instead of haveing to rely on what someone says...I mean I could say I have 100 sq ft grow with 8 1000w lights, co2 etc...without pics it is not believable.  I'm sure you can understand this.

I felt like you were getting mad at me for pointing out what you said earlier, and I was only trying to show you why people thought the way they did.  But I can understand the defensive nature when you feel like you are getting ganged up on.

I know that the experiment has been tried before...I have done the same thing outdoors yrs ago, trying to let the sun hit bud sites...I know several who have made the mistake of doing it indoors to get light to the sites to...always with the same results.  I can respect your curiosety to see for yourself.  The reason I think everyone is telling you what is going to happen because it is based on scientific fact, the plants need their leaves to absorb light, to be able to use the nutrients...it is not an oppinion...it is a fact...there is a reason the plants grow with leaves, if it didn't need them it wouldn't have them.

Again I can respect that you need to see this for yourself, to be believed, I think alot of the reason for the sarcasm is because most of us don't see the point in the experiment, as we know what the results will be.

Like I said before it's your grow, do whatever you feel you need to do to proove whatever to yourself.  I wish you luck!


----------



## cmd420 (Dec 17, 2009)

_*I thought women are supposed to be the more sensitive and kinder sex of the two...go figure.[/*_quote]

I assume that you want to be a member in good standing at this site..

Based upon that assumption, I would say that it is an extremely bad idea to snipe at:

1. Someone who is willing to help you
2. Someone with much more experience than you have
3. Someone who is a positive member on this site
4. A moderator

real bad idea 




you are going down a really bad road here dude.....

If I were you I would just delete this thread and start over...

it is a worthless thread with no pics to back it up and is going no place good..

just grow pot...


----------



## kaotik (Dec 17, 2009)

:yeahthat: 
dude, abide


----------



## Hick (Dec 17, 2009)

hXXp://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookPS.html <-- photosynthesis
..it is _Light on the fan leaves'_ that provides, allows, performs .."PHOTOSYNTHESIS" .. not light on the buds or stems or dirt in the bottom of the pot. 

  Without allowing the community to observe and follow along, no one is going to take your word for it. In order to bring any validity to the ..'experiment'.. it must be documented. We need to see it being performed. Not just you saying, "I cut all my fan leaves off and I got more bud"... you could say that a thousand times, in a dozen different languages, and no one is going to believe it.  It means 'nothing' without a series of pictures documenting it. 
thats all... nobody  is condemning you for trying it, only for trying to prove it without showing us the pudding..


----------



## BBFan (Dec 17, 2009)

Geez folks- it's done. He cut the fan leaves off without asking our opinion. What's done is done. I can't fault the guy for getting defensive after reading some of our posts. Many of us had the "holier-than-thou" attitude and others were just plain nasty. He doesn't have a camera / can't take pics- whatever the reason, that's the reason- get over it.






			
				Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> *Science will either prove or disprove* your hypothesis. I am not set on either way - just whatever will produce the best buds.


 
Strawberry Cough-

If you really want to let us know the results (and I hope you do and can at least post some pics of the final results), you need to tell us some more. You've established that you removed all fan leaves and left the bud leaves.

Were these clones of the same mom or from seed?

What's the strain- is it sativa or indica dominant?

Was the one you trimmed showing any different phenos than the others, or perhaps less vigorous than the others?


If you can't do pics, for it to be at least basic scientific method, you need to track what you've done so that it can be replicated. It's not really science- but you're invested to this point. Perhaps something can come of this.  And maybe we can all learn something here.

In spite of what I may have said in earlier posts, I'm interested and would like to know the results.

Thanks.
-BBFan


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> Well strawberry I for one can relate to not haveing a camera, so not all of us americans have them.  I also never had a computer until a few months ago, or a cell phone until my daughter talked me into it...not that I couldn't affird it, I just never saw the point in haveing any of them...I'm a little old fashioned I guess...now that I have the comp, and cell, I would like to get a camera to, to post pics of my grows, I understand how it is.
> 
> I think people just want to see the results, instead of haveing to rely on what someone says...I mean I could say I have 100 sq ft grow with 8 1000w lights, co2 etc...without pics it is not believable.  I'm sure you can understand this.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your very kind tone in your message.   I understand what you have said, and respect your opinion and experience.

Yes, I need to see for myself because I have noticed the buds that are blocked from my light by the fan leaves are the least developed.  The sunshine outside will hit all parts of the plant including bud sites and spear leaves and whatever other types of classifications of leaves are between fan leaves and bud.

Yes, plants need leaves for photosynthesis, but being experienced gardener, I can tell you that a good trimming on many other types of plants really helps to increase growth and promote good fruiting sites (e.g. lemons).


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

cmd420 said:
			
		

> _*I thought women are supposed to be the more sensitive and kinder sex of the two...go figure.[/*_quote]
> 
> I assume that you want to be a member in good standing at this site..
> 
> ...



I would hardly say that that the following statement is helpful.  It is simply belittling:



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> LOL--I cannot believe that you think that you can change the biology of the plant:rofl: :rofl:
> 
> Jeez, borrow a camera.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> hXXp://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookPS.html <-- photosynthesis
> ..it is _Light on the fan leaves'_ that provides, allows, performs .."PHOTOSYNTHESIS" .. not light on the buds or stems or dirt in the bottom of the pot.
> 
> Without allowing the community to observe and follow along, no one is going to take your word for it. In order to bring any validity to the ..'experiment'.. it must be documented. We need to see it being performed. Not just you saying, "I cut all my fan leaves off and I got more bud"... you could say that a thousand times, in a dozen different languages, and no one is going to believe it.  It means 'nothing' without a series of pictures documenting it.
> thats all... nobody  is condemning you for trying it, only for trying to prove it without showing us the pudding..



...and I have said I will try to provide photos at harvest for comparison.

But I make a post and people demand pictures (truly demand) within hours.  I have at least 3-5 weeks until harvest.

I am not the only one growing.  Others can either prove or disprove if they are so certain, and they can take their pictures and provide.

I don't have a camera.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 17, 2009)

BBFan said:
			
		

> You've established that you removed all fan leaves and left the bud leaves.
> 
> Were these clones of the same mom or from seed?
> 
> ...



Your kind tone is refreshing and very nice and welcoming.

These are currently from seed, 4 separate moms, all sisters from same mother and father.  A friend ordered WW but said it was send without the breeder pack for superstealth.  So not certain definitely WW.  But tonight is 5 weeks and I see the white crystals really starting to pack on tonight.  So maybe it is.

Your question about phenos brings up interesting point - the different growth characteristics and speeds.

However, my clones of the alpha mom also have different growth speeds so having clones does not necessarily guarantee uniform growth (i.e. control) for the scientific method.  I will have to just show picture of how the growth COMPARES to the non-trimmed plants (sisters of same age within a few days / weeks).

Or, if using clones would be better for more accurate results, this experiment will have to wait a few months while my cloned girls veg.

...but then again another variable is the size of the pots I place them in.  One is small, one is large, one is HUGE...


----------



## Hick (Dec 17, 2009)

demand.. .. yes, give me pictures or else!.. :hitchair:.. 
Pictures are the "only" way we have of keeping you honest. .. Pictures at harvest do not show us anything, but your harvested plants. It doesn't provide a way of following along and watching the development or 'lack' of..  Not being "holier-than-thou".. or nasty, just observing and stating the facts.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 17, 2009)

Just a quick question...you say your plants are in different size pots as of right now?  Am I understanding this correctly?  If that is the case the experiment is already not valid if you are doing a comparison of the same plants in differnt pot sizes.

Here is what I suggest for you...you can take it or leave it, but in order to do a good experiment you have to have everything the same from the start.  So with that in mind, why not wait untill your clones are ready in a few months, maybe by then you will have a camera to document the whole thing from start to finish.  1) all clones should be the same age, from the same mother 2) they should all be in equal size pots 3) they should all have the exact same medium 4) all fed the same nutes, at the same time. 5) all vegged and bloomed on the same schedules. 6) you should do as many as possable at the same time, this will give you accuracy say you have 6 clones from the same mother, do 3 with and 3 without leaves that will give you a better idea, rather than just one...one may be a freak..3 will give you a better over all idea...get my drift? 

I'm not a scientist, I'm sure someone else on here could give you better ideas for controls...I'm just saying these as an example.  I know you already have one trimmed, so maybe you will see enough off the one to feel like you don't need to attempt this again...I dunno, just my thoughts.


----------



## ASEgrower (Dec 17, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> And your comment (and the way you say it) about a camera demonstrates you are (forgive me) arrogant American who thinks the whole world has the same standard of living as you. Cameras are a luxury in my country, and especially in my socio-economic class, and not a common item as they are in USA with blackberries, 2 or 3 or more cars per household etc..


 
You know, your comment shows jealousy and ignorance also.  I live in America. In my household we have no cell phone, 1 car that is 22 years old and a hand me down digital camera purchased used.  The ideal American life you speak of is no longer in existance here.  

BTW, usually when a person talks the way you do about something being impossible or your socio-economic class it demonstrates laziness. You want a digital camera?  Get yourself a better job and get one.  I wont apologize because my country believes in hard work and reaping the benefits.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 18, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> demand.. .. yes, give me pictures or else!.. :hitchair:..
> Pictures are the "only" way we have of keeping you honest. .. Pictures at harvest do not show us anything, but your harvested plants. It doesn't provide a way of following along and watching the development or 'lack' of..  Not being "holier-than-thou".. or nasty, just observing and stating the facts.



Indeed, you are not being holier-than-thou or nasty.  Your tone is kind, and your points are noted and well-taken.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 18, 2009)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> Just a quick question...you say your plants are in different size pots as of right now?  Am I understanding this correctly?  If that is the case the experiment is already not valid if you are doing a comparison of the same plants in differnt pot sizes.
> 
> Here is what I suggest for you...you can take it or leave it, but in order to do a good experiment you have to have everything the same from the start.  So with that in mind, why not wait untill your clones are ready in a few months, maybe by then you will have a camera to document the whole thing from start to finish.  1) all clones should be the same age, from the same mother 2) they should all be in equal size pots 3) they should all have the exact same medium 4) all fed the same nutes, at the same time. 5) all vegged and bloomed on the same schedules. 6) you should do as many as possable at the same time, this will give you accuracy say you have 6 clones from the same mother, do 3 with and 3 without leaves that will give you a better idea, rather than just one...one may be a freak..3 will give you a better over all idea...get my drift?
> 
> I'm not a scientist, I'm sure someone else on here could give you better ideas for controls...I'm just saying these as an example.  I know you already have one trimmed, so maybe you will see enough off the one to feel like you don't need to attempt this again...I dunno, just my thoughts.



Yes, it would seem that in order to truly prove or disprove the theory that fan leaves cannot or should not be removed, your controls seems like good methods to ensure the results are as accurate as possible.

Because my clones are of different ages in different pots, then the results I would observe and/or provide would not be valid.

So, I will just observe what goes on, and maybe provide pictures of the harvest regardless of the experiment.

Maybe someone else is willing to take on this mission because I don't have the set up or the time to use all the good controls that were suggested.  After I finish this crop (for seeds), and I going to try breeding my cloned male and cloned female (just for kicks) to produce seeds from the same (i.e. cloned) mother and father.  After this, I will grow the same mother (another clone) sinsemilla, and then after this I would like to order a new strain and grow from seed.  I am thinking I would like to try Strawberry Cough for its anti-anxiety high that I read so much about.

If the experiment is invalid from a scientific method perspective, so be it.  What's done is done.  The fan leaves are gone, and now it's all about observation.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 18, 2009)

ASEgrower said:
			
		

> You know, your comment shows jealousy and ignorance also.  I live in America. In my household we have no cell phone, 1 car that is 22 years old and a hand me down digital camera purchased used.  The ideal American life you speak of is no longer in existance here.
> 
> BTW, usually when a person talks the way you do about something being impossible or your socio-economic class it demonstrates laziness. You want a digital camera?  Get yourself a better job and get one.  I wont apologize because my country believes in hard work and reaping the benefits.



I won't be dragged into an argument, but a few points:

1.) I am from America; no jealously here - I left that empty materialistic life because it is just a rat-race to keep up with the Jones to consume and have more.

2.) I did not say all Americans were like this.  Only that the comment from Hg demonstrated this arrogant attitude, "Jeez, get a camera", i.e. "who can't afford a friggin' camera? - loser!"   Well, I can't, as well as many others.

3.) Your statement, "You are lazy, get a better job", really demonstrates your ignorance.  Ok, poor woman in Africa, your poverty is your own doing.  Get your behind off the ground and go work for 1 dollar a day.  Not enough money?  Go find a better job... You see, the rest of the world works very hard, but it ain't so easy to just go "find a job".  Pay is less in countries outside of USA, and costs are higher.  So if I make 1/2 and things cost double, you can do the math as to priorities:  rent, food, clothes, bills, transportation to/from work, wife, children, etc.

Nuff said.


----------



## Hick (Dec 18, 2009)

hxxp://www.multi-cam.net/digital_camera_dc30.html
hxxp://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=EZ-802&cat=CAM
theres one for $12 nd another for $20... just say it, "I don't _want_ a camera" not I can't afford one. Both are less than one month of internet service, less than a bag of good dirt, a single bottle of nutrients, a clone, or a pack of seeds.
  If you really 'wanted' one, it could be accomplished. You could easily pick up that many aluminum cans in a day, or put on dark glasses paint a stick white and sell some pencils on the corner, ...or _borrow_ one,  IF you 'really' wanted one.  
..BUT, it ain't gonna happen, so it's  best dropped. As has been previously stated, the plants being of different age, different sized pots, ect. totally negates the results anyway.
  While I'm glad you're doing it for your own observation, without any "control" what so ever in place, I'm not sure you can/will be able to observe anything of significance.


----------



## BBFan (Dec 18, 2009)

Have to agree with Hick- can't go by the results as there are too many variables.  Results will be inconclusive.

Strawberry-  Did you just start another thread where you said you live in Calif?  I thought you said you didn't live in US? :confused2:


----------



## surreptitious (Dec 18, 2009)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> Just a quick question...you say your plants are in different size pots as of right now? Am I understanding this correctly? If that is the case the experiment is already not valid if you are doing a comparison of the same plants in differnt pot sizes.
> 
> Here is what I suggest for you...you can take it or leave it, but in order to do a good experiment you have to have everything the same from the start. So with that in mind, why not wait untill your clones are ready in a few months, maybe by then you will have a camera to document the whole thing from start to finish. 1) all clones should be the same age, from the same mother 2) they should all be in equal size pots 3) they should all have the exact same medium 4) all fed the same nutes, at the same time. 5) all vegged and bloomed on the same schedules. 6) you should do as many as possable at the same time, this will give you accuracy say you have 6 clones from the same mother, do 3 with and 3 without leaves that will give you a better idea, rather than just one...one may be a freak..3 will give you a better over all idea...get my drift?
> 
> I'm not a scientist, I'm sure someone else on here could give you better ideas for controls...I'm just saying these as an example. I know you already have one trimmed, so maybe you will see enough off the one to feel like you don't need to attempt this again...I dunno, just my thoughts.


 
scientific method FTW!


----------



## CungaBreath (Dec 18, 2009)

For what it's worth....I was browsing some seed bank sites yesterday and came across a strain and started reading the breeders description. After all the typical hype he said...."cut the fan leaves off before the last two weeks to help increase yield"

Hopefully I can find that seed bank again and provide a link for everyone. At the time I didn't think to much about it and can't remember which one I was looking at. :doh:

 and no...I don't have pictures


----------



## surreptitious (Dec 18, 2009)

She said that she's from America.  Doesnt neccesarily mean she's living in America.

Not a clue about the Cali MJ laws in the sig.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 18, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> just say it, "I don't _want_ a camera" not I can't afford one. Both are less than one month of internet service, less than a bag of good dirt, a single bottle of nutrients, a clone, or a pack of seeds.
> If you really 'wanted' one, it could be accomplished. You could easily pick up that many aluminum cans in a day, or put on dark glasses paint a stick white and sell some pencils on the corner, ...or _borrow_ one,  IF you 'really' wanted one.   ..BUT, it ain't gonna happen, so it's  best dropped.
> 
> As has been previously stated, the plants being of different age, different sized pots, ect. totally negates the results anyway.
> While I'm glad you're doing it for your own observation, without any "control" what so ever in place, I'm not sure you can/will be able to observe anything of significance.


I don't want to buy cheap and have it break and waste money.  I only buy quality, and prefer to wait for quality.

Yes, too many controls make it not an objective, scientific experiment.  It will be only a subjective, personal observation now.



			
				CungaBreath said:
			
		

> For what it's worth....I was browsing some seed bank sites yesterday and came across a strain and started reading the breeders description. After all the typical hype he said...."cut the fan leaves off before the last two weeks to help increase yield"
> 
> Hopefully I can find that seed bank again and provide a link for everyone. At the time I didn't think to much about it and can't remember which one I was looking at. :doh:
> 
> and no...I don't have pictures


You can google the phrase as best you remember it, and you might find the results show up in google - even so, this is very, very interesting.  So there are those breeders who actually recommend this practice.  Then there must be something to this theory.  Is there any grower out there who can take on this mission with the necessary scientific controls?

I am not in California.  In another post I wrote encouragement for California voters to vote yes to legalize.  I even used that as my signature.

Just some personal observations:

The MJ plant wants so badly to survive, the plant will keep growing if fan leaves are cut off.  I am observing so much more "delicate" growth at each bud site (and its surrounding leaves) - which is of course at every node; I reckon the plant is compensating for losing its fan leaves by growing vigorously from every other green/leafy point left remaining.

I don't know if the buds will grow bigger, but they are definitely growing "different".

The fan leaves do provide food reserves for the plant as it grows. It takes what it needs/lacks from the fan leaves. You will notice some leaves turn yellow or brown and/or dry out (sometimes turn colors but not dry out!).

But LIGHT is a critical factor, and trimming is (or can be) beneficial to try to emulate the natural "pervasiveness" of natural sunlight. Outdoors one need not trim because the sunshine simply pervades everywhere, but indoors, especially with one light direction trimming can be very helpful.

I would like to further clarify what I did:  I remove all large fan leaves.

All bud sites and "mini-fan leaves" were left.

The buds will increase energy to compensate by investing in their "mini-fan leaves", and more of the plants bud sites get more needed light.  These mini fan leaves also have more THC trich production than the larger fan leaves.


----------



## Hick (Dec 18, 2009)

> "And your comment (and the way you say it) about a camera demonstrates you are (forgive me) arrogant American who thinks the whole world has the same standard of living as you. Cameras are a luxury in my country, and especially in my socio-economic class, and not a common item as they are in USA with blackberries, 2 or 3 or more cars per household etc."............I am legal for Medical Marijuana..............1.) I am from America; no jealously here - ...I only buy quality, and prefer to wait for quality.


Lotsa' _word games_ it looks like to "me"... NOT lending credibility to your cause. 



> trimming can be very helpful.


I've about had a bellyfull.... I nor the community need allow you to further dispell the facts. Cutting off the fan leaves to allow light to parts that can't and don't utilize it to its potential is NOT beneficial. I won't allow you to "SAY" it is, without "proof".. Proof being pictures showing that all of the botany world is wrong, and "you" are right.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 19, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> Lotsa' _word games_ it looks like to "me"... NOT lending credibility to your cause.
> 
> 
> I've about had a bellyfull.... I nor the community need allow you to further dispell the facts. Cutting off the fan leaves to allow light to parts that can't and don't utilize it to its potential is NOT beneficial. I won't allow you to "SAY" it is, without "proof".. Proof being pictures showing that all of the botany world is wrong, and "you" are right.



Wow, I find your last paragraph almost shocking.  You won't allow me to state my observations that I believe moderate trimming can be helpful to increase light to the plant?

If this is not a forum for free exchange of information and experience, then what is it?  A place to regurgitate techniques read about elsewhere?  

It is fact that sun's light penetrates everywhere on the plant in nature because of the wind and the plant being exposed to this very powerful light nearly every where on the plant.

I know I am not the only one who believes trimming can be helpful, as indicated by the comments that this is an ongoing debate, and someone asking that I might take pictures so that any proof might be posted as a sticky.

Will you censor 4u2smoke for all his experiments?  Grafting two types of marijuana is by no means conventional, but will you "not allow" him to share his observations of his alternative ways of doing things?

Or is it a matter of post pictures or else?  Post pictures or you are wrong.

Sorry, no camera.  How about you Hick take on the mission of doing the scientifically controlled experiment and prove to me and others that moderate trimming under any circumstances is wrong - prove it to us with pictures please.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 19, 2009)

Listen To Me One & All:  I Am Not Advocating Chopping Off All Leaves.

I Trimmed As An Experiment To See If This Can Help Increase Light Penetration & Thus Bud Production.

Do Not Misunderstand This As Definitive Advice To Chop Off All Leaves.

I Am Taking Break From This Forum - Too Many Of You Are Too Uptight And Attack And Berate For Taking A Chance And Experimenting.


----------



## zem (Dec 19, 2009)

SC you are correcting your mistake with a bigger one, why not admit the mistake and move on with what's right?? these claims that fan leaf cutting is good are just wrong you're not inventing the wheel with this "experiment" and you're sacrificing your plants as we try help you and you're being sadistic to your MJ and the main reason we are here is to help one another with growing we dont like to see someone kill his grow just cuz hes not listening to good advise and worse you're spreading your methods around


----------



## Hick (Dec 19, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> Wow, I find your last paragraph almost shocking.  You won't allow me to state my observations that I believe moderate trimming can be helpful to increase light to the plant?
> 
> If this is not a forum for free exchange of information and experience, then what is it?  A place to regurgitate techniques read about elsewhere?
> 
> ...



...I'm not telling you that you can't "freely exchange information".. but I won't/can't allow you to state mis-truths as fact or advise others to ... not with a clear conscience... 


> Or is it a matter of post pictures or else?  Post pictures or you are wrong.


It will _require_ pictures, and documentation.. for me to consider your observations with any serious validity.  "IMO" you have already shown that your "word" is questionable, at best. With the obvious deceptive "legal mmj".. "in/out of country" mumbo-jumbo, double talk.  


> How about you Hick take on the mission of doing the scientifically controlled experiment


WHY???.. I already _know_ that it will have a negative impact. It's been proven time and again. I proved it to myself 20 years ago. I'm not just talking out a hole in my hat. 


> Will you censor 4u2smoke for all his experiments? Grafting two types of marijuana is by no means conventional, but will you "not allow" him to share his observations of his alternative ways of doing things?


Is he telling people that grafting their plants will result in bigger, better, more potent buds?.. Is he doing it, and claiming success without documentation/proof?... 


> Listen To Me One & All:  I Am Not Advocating Chopping Off All Leaves.
> 
> I Trimmed As An Experiment To See If This Can Help Increase Light Penetration & Thus Bud Production.
> 
> ...



NOW THERE YOU GO!!  now you're with the program    As long as you are not making false claims and/or advising folks to follow your procedure, I'm with your experiment 100%... :hubba:   nobody is 'berating' you for experimenting..


----------



## BBFan (Dec 19, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> WHY???.. I already know that it will have a negative impact. It's been proven time and again. I proved it to myself 20 years ago. *I'm not just talking out a hole in my hat.*



Hey thar Hick!

I got some foil you can use to patch up that hole if it gets to bothersome!


----------



## Hick (Dec 19, 2009)

.:rofl:.........


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 19, 2009)

With all due respect, Hick, it seems you don't what is "advise", and what is simply sharing my own personal experiment and observations.  

Perhaps you should go back and read the thread from the beginning and read what I have said.


----------



## Mutt (Dec 19, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> the proof is in the pudding...http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38984
> "lolipopping" ....removing lower branches to allow more growth be directed to the tops, where the light is most beneficial, and removing the plants ability to photosynthesise by removing the fan leaves, also where light is most beneficial, are far far different methods and will result in different outcomes.
> Removing upper fan leaves that are recieving full light is NOT going to benefit the plant, not in any manner. Not only speaking from a couple of decades of experience, but from a common sense botanical point of view.



on a side note...during the last phases of flower when Nitrogen is depleted, the lower fan leaves fall off and work there way up. So by cutting the plants top ones you are in a sense meeting the near death phase 1/2 way and spreading up the process without allowing the full term of flower. 

i don't need any pictures of it to KNOW trimming all the fan leaves off is a bad idea. Thinning them if you have an excessive bushy plant and need better light penetration and air flow to avoid bud rot..but not to cut all of them off. Mom nature put those leaves there for a purpose to gain Energy from the light. 

I've abused plants left and right, cut em, trimmed em, tied em, topped em, no veg, long veg, rootbound, bonsai, you name it i did it to know what this plant was capable of...trimming off fan leaves may give the "appearance" of fatter buds..well when you trim off those fan leaves of course the buds look fatter you took away proportion. Which will trick the human eye.

Its just plain science man....Google "biology of plants" that will shed some definitive proof on what your doing is wrong.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 19, 2009)

Mutt said:
			
		

> Its just plain science man....Google "biology of plants" that will shed some definitive proof on what your doing is wrong.



Some people are so dogmatic and stubborn.

Show me ONE scientific study comparing trimmed and non-trimmed bud, please, just ONE.

Trimming (aka pruning) is a well-known technique used for centuries in gardening with various plants and trees to increase fruit production.

Whether or not it works here for MJ for indoor grows is open for discussion.  Contrary to what others seem to be forcing down my throat (i.e. claiming I am advocating this technique), I am not biased one way or the other - which is why I am experimenting (not advising), and whatever I observe I will do for my PERSONAL grows. 

How about this?  I will not report results so that I don't spread this "misinformation" that you "won't allow".

Ignorance is bliss, isn't it?  ok, hick, is right.  trimming is under no circumstances advisable.


----------



## Mutt (Dec 19, 2009)

You do what you want strawberry cough. you do exactly what ever you want. 
But, I will not just let you post up whatever your opinion is without expressing mine. But from the looks I do research a lot more than you.  I have no use for disinformation. 
I just know what works in my garden and the other 4 people i've trained in real life. The 20+ strains I've tested, abused, maximized, and crossed. Disregard my 15 yrs of OD growing and 6 yrs of ID growing. Call me "dogmatic"...its a weed, it flowers and blooms like others that are photoperiod dependent.  
Show me PROOF that your buds get bigger when you trim the fan leaves. Until then Kiss my furry butt. Also when that happens....you'll have went against almost every grow journal in this and every other forum....proving them all wrong. 



			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> light energy
> 
> 
> == 6CO2 + 6H2O --------> C6H12O6 + 6O2 ==
> ...



The more cells you have the better that INCLUDES fan leaves...so there's my proof show me yours??? 
Read more on botany b4 you cross paths with some of us.........Some of us take what you just posted as a direct insult to the years of study we have worked at to understand this plant.
It produces carbs,,,,,,if you lok at ANY end flower bud booster its CARBS that make the buds and your cutting off mother natures carb factories.

PS pruning is what i do to my mother plants. Thats NOT taking off all the fan leaves..but thining them and lowering the canopy to a managable level. 

If ingorance is bliss..you must be one blissful person.

man 3 mos ago i woulda banned this guy..


----------



## Mutt (Dec 19, 2009)

hXXp://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e24/24.htm
hXXp://www.squidoo.com/photosynthesis
hXXp://biology.clc.uc.edu/Courses/Bio104/photosyn.htm

oh there's more...
Weed is not some plant that rebukes the laws of nature..plain and simple..its a weed.
In a nut shell by cutting all fan leaves you have reduced the amount of energy going to the buds...period scientific law and fact. The lowers that receive no light yes..as they are not useful...The plant will shed them on there own. The green ones that recieve light the plant depends on for the energy used to produce buds. Its science. put the blunt down and read a book.


----------



## cmd420 (Dec 19, 2009)

_"Show me ONE scientific study comparing trimmed and non-trimmed bud, please, just ONE."_
I DID IT...I TRIMMED FAN LEAVES ON SOME PLANTS AND DIDN'T ON OTHERS AND ON THE ONES THAT GOT TRIMMED, THE HARVEST WAS DRAMATICALLY, NOTICEABLY, SMALLER...I don't need a doctor to come along and tell me that it will not be good for me to shoot myself either..





_"Trimming (aka pruning) is a well-known technique used for centuries in gardening with various plants and trees to increase fruit production."_
I can help you with this one real quick..

go look up "trimming" (as it relates to plants)...

then go look up "pruning"....

they will not be the same definition...period...

there ya go...now go and study what each really is and report back on what you find...

tell us if you still want to stick with your "experiement"..._if you do_ I can think of some more homework for you...until the lesson is learned...

I wish I had had someone to school me when I first started...lucky!


----------



## Hick (Dec 20, 2009)

> Some people are so dogmatic and stubborn.


YES.. and _you_ are their poster child.. 



> Show me ONE scientific study comparing trimmed and non-trimmed bud, please, just ONE.


It is simple plant biology fer krise sakes... 
your observations, experiment aren't going to present anything even remotely conclusive. You've already stated that they are in different sized pots, different ages, ect. There is nothing even remotely scientific or revealing about your procedure. EVEN if you had pictures, it would be invalid simply due to your lack of control. 
Mutt is correct, you are insulting our intelligence with your continued arguements. Not one thing you have said lends credit or supports your ideas. While several posts have directed you to evidence, scientific proof, that removing the plants ability to photosynthsise is detrimental to growth.


----------



## iamtd (Dec 20, 2009)

wow....:holysheep: 

:argue: :chillpill:


----------



## zem (Dec 20, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> Show me ONE scientific study comparing trimmed and non-trimmed bud, please, just ONE.


thats cuz none was so _foolish_ to go through such an experiment with a known result. , i actually wish they teach you the hard way and die 
 but problem is your all over the forum with your false crazy LETHAL theories
edited....


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 20, 2009)

zem said:
			
		

> thats cuz none was so _foolish_ to go through such an experiment with a known result. , i actually wish they teach you the hard way and die
> but problem is your all over the forum with your false crazy LETHAL theories
> edited....



Ok, if it is known result, please direct me to where I can see the evidence myself.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 20, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> YES.. and _you_ are their poster child..
> 
> 
> It is simple plant biology fer krise sakes...
> ...



Wow, it seems you guys really project ideas and theories on to me.

I have not recommended in any way whatsoever to do this.  IT IS NOT ADVICE.  I have simply shared my experiment.  Please go back and read what I have said.  I have even explicitly stated a couple of times now to not misconstrue this as advice, and it is only for my own personal knowledge.

Yes, I agreed with the person who first raised the issues about controls (kindly I might add) that my experiment is admittedly not scientific because it lacks the controls.  Yes, I admitted it would not be valid and asked if anyone is willing to take on the mission to actually PROVE that trimming is not better than not trimming.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 20, 2009)

cmd420 said:
			
		

> _"Show me ONE scientific study comparing trimmed and non-trimmed bud, please, just ONE."_
> I DID IT...I TRIMMED FAN LEAVES ON SOME PLANTS AND DIDN'T ON OTHERS AND ON THE ONES THAT GOT TRIMMED, THE HARVEST WAS DRAMATICALLY, NOTICEABLY, SMALLER...I don't need a doctor to come along and tell me that it will not be good for me to shoot myself either..
> 
> 
> ...



Very good if your knowledge comes from personal experience.  

Were you similarly berated by members here for "advising" when you simply were reporting what had already been done?


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 20, 2009)

Mutt said:
			
		

> You do what you want strawberry cough. you do exactly what ever you want.
> But, I will not just let you post up whatever your opinion is without expressing mine.
> Show me PROOF that your buds get bigger when you trim the fan leaves. Until then Kiss my furry butt. Also when that happens....you'll have went against almost every grow journal in this and every other forum....proving them all wrong.
> 
> ...



Let me clear for the last time:  I do not have an opinion one way or the other until I observe the results of my experiment - contrary to what some people here want to believe that I have said (which I haven't).   

I do not advise cutting your fan leaves if you do not want.

I was bored, decided to experiment, and await the results of my experiment.

I do not have an opinion one way or the other, as I am not biased.

To state for the last time:  if it turns out that my 3 girls that have not been trimmed produce bigger buds (or better buds), then I will learn from experience that trimming is bad even until indoor (one direction) light conditions.


----------



## cmd420 (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm not berating..

I actually do think that you are lucky..seriously..

I also can relate to your stubborness..like I said before..with a sense of affection...you seem to need to learn the hard way..like me..nothin wrong with that

I just wish you hadn't done the cutting cuz you'll probably be bummed in the end...

that's all...that's probably what some other folks are thinking/feeling too..


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 20, 2009)

Unless the one that got butchered is in the biggest pot, then then this will be the plant that produces the most for you...if all the same strain.

Again, I don't think you will find anyone willing to hurt their yeilds to take on an experiment that will obviousely have negative results.  If it were an experiment that might give posotive results I may have been willing to partake.


----------



## Strawberry Cough (Dec 20, 2009)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> Unless the one that got butchered is in the biggest pot, then then this will be the plant that produces the most for you...if all the same strain.
> 
> Again, I don't think you will find anyone willing to hurt their yeilds to take on an experiment that will obviousely have negative results.  If it were an experiment that might give posotive results I may have been willing to partake.



You can't know for certain unless someone actually does it and tries it.  So far I see one person here saying he has done it, tried it, and observed that it is harmful to bud production.  Very good that he had the courage to take a risk and experiment.  No pain, no gain.  Mistakes and failures are good if we learn from them.

Who knows?  What if, for argument's sake, the trimmed plant goes into a sort of mini-stress (like the guy who recommends cleaving in last few days saying the plant thinks it is going to die so it concentrates all its energy in the buds), and what if as a result it starts packing on the trichs concentrating all its energy in the buds?  If I don't try it, I won't know.

I am not saying this will happen!  I am saying how can I possibly know unless I try it?


----------



## PuffinNugs (Dec 20, 2009)

cant wait to see some pictures


----------



## ASEgrower (Dec 20, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> I won't be dragged into an argument, but a few points:
> 
> 1.) I am from America; no jealously here - I left that empty materialistic life because it is just a rat-race to keep up with the Jones to consume and have more.
> 
> ...



So you left our horrible lifestyle, complain about not having, then blame us as americans?  OK.  Are you a poor woman living in africa working for a 1 dollar a day?  No, you arent, thats a bunk attempt at making a stupid point.

Simple fact is, you can afford internet access, some lights, and can grow pot, but you dont want to pony up for a cheap camera.  You set your priorities where they are and then blame others because of your "social class."   Bet I can guess your political affiliation too.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 20, 2009)

Strawberry Cough said:
			
		

> You can't know for certain unless someone actually does it and tries it. So far I see one person here saying he has done it, tried it, and observed that it is harmful to bud production. Very good that he had the courage to take a risk and experiment. No pain, no gain. Mistakes and failures are good if we learn from them.
> 
> Who knows? What if, for argument's sake, the trimmed plant goes into a sort of mini-stress (like the guy who recommends cleaving in last few days saying the plant thinks it is going to die so it concentrates all its energy in the buds), and what if as a result it starts packing on the trichs concentrating all its energy in the buds? If I don't try it, I won't know.
> 
> I am not saying this will happen! I am saying how can I possibly know unless I try it?


 


You are wrong I don't know if it was in this thread or one of the many others useless threads that have been started about this, but I admitted to you in one of them that I had tried it 20 yrs ago, as a rookie, thinking that it would let light into the bottom of my plants...the same rookie thinking that you are haveing right now, and the results were a miserable failure.  I also believe that Hick admitted to trying this many yrs ago when he started...I also Have many freinds who have made this mistake...that and basic science are the reasons everyone here is trying to tell you not to do it...but you want to sit there and tell us how ignorant we are for not trying it...just know that when you point your finger at someone you have 3 more pointing back at yourself.  If you want to mutilate your plants ... feel free, but please stop the stupid arguing, you are never going to get people who have been growing before you were walking to try such an optuse experiment...I honestly can't understand why you would think that we would be that ignorant...knock yourself out kid...we don't care what you do, other than flooding this forum with thread after thread about your ignorant ideas.  And your rookie arrogance is disgusting...maybe you should stick with greenbeans, or sunflowers.


----------



## Hick (Dec 21, 2009)

> cleaving in last few days


...more "wives tales" .. "urban myths".. "mis-information"  As is boiling roots, hanging upside down to increase potency..


----------



## iamtd (Dec 21, 2009)

what the heck is boiling a plants roots meant to do?


----------

