# What is wrong?



## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi guys,
My two Medicine Woman plants look like this.
 First I thought it needed nutes, so i did that, but i am organic and it takes a while for them to show. It is getting worse, losing a lot of fan leaves. She is at day 27 flowering. Help. Thank you.







​
I did some lst when she first went to flowering, would that stress her this much? i don't think so.


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## tcbud (Sep 13, 2011)

I see* Mr Hamster Lewis *on the Active Users line.  I sure hope he can help you* Rose*.  IF we were outdoors and we were a month from finish, I would say it is the Normal Fade.  But your not.

Wish I could help you.  Maybe an early fade is what that plant does?

OH and FORGOT TO SAY....

*CONGRATS ON THE BPOM,* well deserved.  You ROCK *Rose*.


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

thanks for checking in TC, it is much too early for her. Have grown her lots of times and never had this, weird. Has me a little worried. Looks like nute burn but it can't be I don't think. I don't think pulling the branches down would stress them this much. It has been hotter then heck in there. 85 or 86. Usually 83. Thanks for caring TC.


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## tcbud (Sep 13, 2011)

I would have thought Nute Burn too, if it had just been the dark spots.  The leaves look odd pushing upward like they are too (compared to the plant next to it).  Could it be overwatering?  Just an idea.  Overwatering is never a problem for me.....as the heat drys everything so fast here.

Again, Congrats on that Beautiful BPOM up there.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 13, 2011)

That's not stress or heat related. That is definitely deficiency related. I see more plants in the background, are all of them having this problem or just this one? Are you feeding them the same nutes, the same way? That looks like a combination of N def and maybe P or K as well. Maybe even some micro nute def, which leads me to think you have a PH issue that has been causing nute lockout for a while. I would say run some water (PH 6.8) through it slowly until it starts to run out of the bottom. Catch the water and check the PH, unless you have a soil PH meter.


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

I guess it could be, but I often wait for them to wilt and it is so hot in there, so I don't think so, but the leaves are limp like that.


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

None of the other plants are affected, just the two medicine woman'. All are fed the same way.
I am an organic dirt farmer that has never had to test my ph. The tips look burnt to me. I fed them on Sunday.

I do have some test strips, would that work?

TC, i know to only enter when you have nothing in bloom for the bpotm, but thank you. I expect great things from you this season, and I see you already started..she is pretty.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 13, 2011)

I am thinking more like Hushpuppy--a deficiency rather than nute burn.  Just doesn't look like nute burn to me.

Sometimes weird things happen for no apparent reason.  I have had 2 clones from the same mother in a 10 gal tote and had one do great and the other do terrible.  Same everything--I never could figure it out.

I do have to say though, that what I know about organics I can write on my thumb nail with a magic marker.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't know how accurate those test strips are but it wouldn't hurt to try them to see. If the PH is way off, They will probably show it, but if it is only off just enough to lock out the nutes, it may not show. If you look at the second sticky on this thread, you will see that those leaves are exibiting several deficiency symptoms. Almost anytime there are multiple deficiencies and the person is feeding properly, then I suspect PH as it locks out multiple things when it gets off and it is easiest to check and solve for.


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## Locked (Sep 13, 2011)

Well I suck at diagnosing sick plants...especially in organics, but that looks like a big time N deficiency at least. I don't see any real nute burn.
Are you in an organic "super soil"? If so what was your mix?


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

"I do have to say though, that what I know about organics I can write on my thumb nail with a magic marker." THG, that is funny. 
hushpuppy, maybe i should run down and get some Tea. My grow shop sells it and it is good stuff. I could also hit them with some N. I fed them on Sunday I don't know how long it will take for that to get into the leaves.
Should I hit them with some N, *wouldn't all my plants have lock out if it was lockout?*

Hamster, I use fox farm ocean forest and some happy frog for the mychora..don't know how to spell that. Have used it always. this is just weird.


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## Locked (Sep 13, 2011)

Well at the risk of sounding like a total noob maybe your beneficial mycho are dead? I was under the impression that ph wld hve to be way off in organic growing to lock out nutrients. I thought the mycho buffers everything...but like I said I suck at organics.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 13, 2011)

I think it looks like an N deficiency, too.  Like I said, I have seen clones from the same mother react quite differently to the same environment and nutrients.


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

Maybe a dose of folier N? I know they are flowering, but this seems urgent.


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## Wetdog (Sep 13, 2011)

What is the genetic make up of WW? Indica/sativa %'s?

I'm thinking strain related (duh, me), but it could be pH, def, or ????

The other plants look great, so it's not a general thing.

For your run off test, water well and totally saturate the medium. Toss the run off. Wait about an hour, add just a bit of water, catch that run off and test it. The strips should be fine, ball park is ok for run off.

What's in your soil mix? Basic and amendments? Using lime? Hot, mild, just right?

I really want to say low N, but that could be 100% wrong. In truth, IDK.

Wet


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## Sol (Sep 13, 2011)

I don't feel i can add to this at all , but i wish your plant well. I absolutely love that bud of the month medicine woman bud.


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## Wetdog (Sep 13, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> thanks for checking in TC, it is much too early for her. Have grown her lots of times and never had this, weird. Has me a little worried. Looks like nute burn but it can't be I don't think. I don't think pulling the branches down would stress them this much. It has been hotter then heck in there. 85 or 86. Usually 83. Thanks for caring TC.



You've grown her before with no probs, so think of what is different. A bit hotter could make a difference. I really doubt the LST had anything to do with it, but something has changed from previous grows.

Just need to figure out what.:hubba: 

Wet


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

Hey thank you Solanero.
WD, i been hoping you would stop by. The heat is different in the room, not bothering the others. All plants are in FFOF with a little happy frog for the mychroz.....stuff. They had tea a few times going into flower, they have been fed twice since in flower (27 days)...seems like that is how i usually do it. Can you comment on if it was ph lockout wouldn't all plants be locked out?


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## dman1234 (Sep 13, 2011)

Are they root bound Rose?

its definetley not nute burn imo,

 it is so hard to figure when the other plants beside her show no signs of the issue, it looks like normal fade but obviously way way to soon, dont know what to say but if it were me i would consider hitting them with a heavy dose of N, but i also am terrible at diagnosing other peoples issues.


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## Roddy (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm sorry you're having this issue, Rosie, hope you can figure it out! Personally, I'd give them a nice topping of worm castings....but I is simple folk here LOL

Truly, good luck to you!


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

hey dman, they are in smart pots so they can't really get rootbound.
I did the ph runoff and it looks like to me it is around 6.8-7.2. Is that fine?

I think hitting them with N is a good idea, just wonder if the tea would be quicker. So strange they both are like this. Thank you everyone for your ideas. They better pull out of it soon.


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## Wetdog (Sep 13, 2011)

It would seem if it was pH lockout, ALL would be affected, but that's what it looks like.

The really baffling thing is that you've grown this before with no issues. With the way those leaves are pointing up, I'm thinking heat, or is this normal for the WW?

I'm really stumped here.

Wet


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## Locked (Sep 13, 2011)

I am stumped as well.......I don't even see that much fade at week 10 of flower. Not sure how only one plant cld get locked out.


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## BBFan (Sep 13, 2011)

Hi Rose!  First off, don't panic.  You may lose a few days growth, but they'll be fine.

Traditional feeding plans usually discontinue nitrogen shortly after flowering begins.  So you don't think to add more nitrogen.  But I've found in organics that nitrogen gets eaten up pretty quickly, especially if you've got a healthy bacterial community.  Don't be afraid to add some nitrogen at this point.  If you're using bat guanos, a tea with some Mexican guano should give you the boost you need.  But a real quick fix would be some blood meal.  You can do a top dress, but a drench would take effect quicker.  A few spoonfuls in a quart of water will be more than enough and you'll see results pretty quick.

Don't worry- you're a great grower and they're gonna be fine.


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

Thank you BBFan. I don't have any but will go get some. I have some Roots organic buddah grow. Maybe I didn't use this at the end of veg like I usually do. I made a note that I fed, but i didn't say what. This has the guana, worm castings soy, kelp, molasses, and yucca. Should i go get the blood meal is it faster then what I just typed?

I am breathing again, thanks to all of you. Medicine woman is my fav and only good night pot.


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## valleyboy (Sep 13, 2011)

Run off isn't always the best way to check PH.

Dry soil in the oven at 185F/85C, once completely dry take 50 grams of soil and mix with 200ML of DI'd or RO'd water or any ratio of 1:4 soil weight:water weight.  Shake for 20 minutes and then meter.  


Only other possible problem I can think of would be some sort of infection, but I'm not leaning toward that case.  My guess is nutrient lockout due to elements in the soil or soil PH.


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## BBFan (Sep 13, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> Thank you BBFan. I don't have any but will go get some. I have some Roots organic buddah grow. Maybe I didn't use this at the end of veg like I usually do. I made a note that I fed, but i didn't say what. This has the guana, worm castings soy, kelp, molasses, and yucca. Should i go get the blood meal is it faster then what I just typed?
> 
> I am breathing again, thanks to all of you. Medicine woman is my fav and only good night pot.


 
That should work fine.  I have Humboldt Organic nutes that I will sometimes use in a pinch.  I'd say give it a shot and see how it reacts.


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## Rosebud (Sep 13, 2011)

Ok, done. Thank you I will see if there is any difference in a couple of days.  The ph just didn't seem the thing since it is only the two..Thanks so much. Couldn't grow this stuff with you all.


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## ston-loc (Sep 13, 2011)

I'm a newb, so no advice from me. Just wishing you GREENER MOJO on those two ladies. Hope it all works out Rose!


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## Ruffy (Sep 13, 2011)

good luck rosie! im no help just love for the mj


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## Rosebud (Sep 14, 2011)

Thanks you guys, i don't see much difference this morning, they are being blasted with fresh air at the moment. I appreciate you stopping in Ruffy and Ston-loc and for the mojo, we need it.


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## tcbud (Sep 14, 2011)

Are you on a well?  Could this time of year draw down the well?  By the well being more empty, could you possibly have more concentrated micro minerals in your water?  Just thinking here.  Has Medicine Woman been grown at this time of year before?

I hope the Nitrogen helps.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 14, 2011)

I hope the Nitrogen works. I really don't know squatt about organics. I have to apply what I do know. I didn't take into account that the Mychorrizae(it's easier to type microbes) would buffer the PH. It is certainly weird that just one or two would suffer PH issues when none of the others have, but not impossible, that is why (for hydro especially) I likje to eliminate that first.

 Now having learned a little about the nature of microbes from BB, I can see the logic in it being a Nitrogen def.   I suspect it will take a few days for you to see the plant start to turn around as it has to go through all the natural steps to get to where it is needed. On top of that, the plant being in flower is less concerned with feeding its leaves and more concerned with feeding its flowers, so it will probably take longer anyway. Green grow mojo


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## moaky (Sep 14, 2011)

Rose, I beleive the fastest way the plants absorb nutes is through the leaves.  You take that tea you were talking about from the shop and some of that roots organics grow to it and areate it or just let sit for 10 mins to an hour(no longer) then foliar spray the two plants.  there is kelp in that mix but a good concentrate of it with molasses will also help build your plants immune system.  just go light on the dosage.  

when you tied it down did you crack it?  I've done that and then the plant will get a little yellow and then dark and then all the leaves go yellow because the nutes aren't making it to the plant because of rot.  I lost half of one of my outdoor ladies this year because of it. I just made here healthy.  make them healthy.  some green mojo for your lovely ladies


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## greenmentat (Sep 15, 2011)

Hey, Rose,  I'm doing Canna Bio line with compost tea once n a while  and I didn't PH through the whole thing because it's organic and I heard that you don't have to but then I read on the website that you kind of do--they're a bit vague and I would love to get to the bottom of that one...but, anyways... I had the identical leaf problem as with your medicine womans and thinking it was a nitrogen deficiency I started mixing up a solution of Age old Grow (super high nitrogen) and fish emulsions, PHing is to 6.5, an giving it to 'em once every three days... after two feeds like this, no more leaves dropping or yellowing.  Also, some plants require more nitrogen than others so that could explain why your other plants aren't dropping leaves least that's how I explain my AKs doing it but not my Chemdawgs.  You can read about it in my grow journal thread (shamless plug) but anyways green mojo to you and good luck


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## bho_expertz (Sep 15, 2011)

Good luck Rose :aok:


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## soil (Sep 15, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> Maybe a dose of folier N? I know they are flowering, but this seems urgent.


Do it now!

i *am* organics !

i am 100% its a N def showing and the PK an micro nutes are probably def. too.

i go through this all the time with organics.

first off mycorrizea does not buffer the soil. it attaches to the roots , so the roots actually stretch farther lookin for food.
In your case all the food is gone so they need more.

As much of an organic freak i am , i would still recommend using a dose of instant food to fix this prob, cause by the time your food (blood , guano, tea, whatever) breaks down in the dirt an starts getting eatin ALL your bigger leaves will be gone.

She is still reachin for the sun so she is READY for some food. 

The reason behind this mess could be *many* things. 

The reason for such a big change would most likely be in your soil with the microbes (all of them , not just mycorrizae) some of your pots are full of bacteria activity and some of them aint. the more alive your soil is the more food they can process for your plant.
_usually_ all the pots in the room will have close to the same results , but there is always that one that has a lot more/less bacteria activity.
When its hot in there , it causes the top 3/4 of dirt to dry out quicker then the bottom 1/4 an that itself can cause a big change in the bacteria activity in the soil.

So even if you got plenty of food in the soil , if the soil cant process it all then you will become deficient.

I think in your case , your soil is healthy and there just aint no food left in their to feed the microbes. 

The only instant fix would be to go get some instant food. it dont matter if its MG 24-8-16 or advanced nutes with perfect "pot" numbers. in your situation its all the same.
Give her one or two full doses of "hydro food" (instant food , already chelated) then start back with your organics , and add a tiny bit of carbs (molasses) to help keep your microbes healthy. then by the time the instant food wears off the microbes will be creating new food for your girl an she will probably need full feedings the rest of her life too.



this is derived from more then an opinion. this it whats going on with your girl.





soil :chuck:


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## Rosebud (Sep 15, 2011)

Wonderful information *Soil*, thank you. I don't think I agree with using mg anything, i feel it would kill my living organisms, am I wrong on that? When I clean out my pots after harvest I am always surprised by the soil that remains throughout the root structure. It would be really hard for me to handle anything bigger then a 5 gall smart pot, but maybe i do need more root space? 

The good news is the integrity of the leaf has changed back to previous crash status. I really did lose a lot of fan leaves, not completely defoliated but over 50% of fans I bet. The color is slowly returning, barely visible, only an optimist could see it. ha. I dosed them again lightly this morning. Nothing is instant in organics, but it is the only way I can grow.

 Hushpuppy, "On top of that, the plant being in flower is less concerned with feeding its leaves and more concerned with feeding its flowers, so it will probably take longer anyway. Green grow mojo"

I think you know a lot more about organics then you think. Thank you for your input, i appreciate it.

*greenmentat* I love organics and have never been concerned about PH and haven't needed to be. I think the general consensus is that you don't. It is interesting and I sure don't understand the microbes and nitrogen uptake, but i know the biodiversity in my yard is very fun and alive. 
Thanks Moaky and bho. green  mojo works.


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## Wetdog (Sep 15, 2011)

I'm cosigning with Soil here, he is 100% spot on.

A shot or 2 of chem nutes isn't going to kill your micro herd. They just aren't that delicate.

I say this from experience also, since I've run into a LOT of deficiencys trying to get the mix right and used Jack's Classic for a quick fix till the organics could break down. Hasn't hurt a thing that I could notice.

For sure, N is the hardest. Not only for the initial amount added as a amendment, but when and how much to top dress so it's available at the right time. Even blood meal, which is pretty quick for organics, seems to take close to 2 weeks before you notice any effects.

Chems are like 'fast food', not good as a steady diet, but once in a while isn't going to hurt.

Wet


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## bho_expertz (Sep 15, 2011)

Well i know that are two types of N. NO3 and NH4 ( i think ). One has faster absorption.

Perhaps some more experienced grower ( guru  ) can point a nice product for you to foliar with the one that has fast absorption.


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## Roddy (Sep 15, 2011)

soil said:
			
		

> Do it now!
> 
> i *am* organics !
> 
> ...




Must ask, wouldn't adding any chem at this point kill all the beneficial microbes? The sticky on this says it will. Any instant food as you've described would have to be chem based...right?

_If you've read the above information than you understand the importance of a "living" substrate. A diverse and rich bacterial and fungal balanced medium contains enough beneficial organisms to out compete pathogens and disease causing bacteria and creates accessible stored nutrient content. Chemical fertilizers kill off much of the microbial life and allow for limited forms of absorption and resistance to disease._

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50463


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 15, 2011)

Like I said, I really know very little about organics, but how about something like coffee grounds, fairly high in N?


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## Wetdog (Sep 15, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Must ask, wouldn't adding any chem at this point kill all the beneficial microbes? The sticky on this says it will. Any instant food as you've described would have to be chem based...right?
> 
> _If you've read the above information than you understand the importance of a "living" substrate. A diverse and rich bacterial and fungal balanced medium contains enough beneficial organisms to out compete pathogens and disease causing bacteria and creates accessible stored nutrient content. Chemical fertilizers kill off much of the microbial life and allow for limited forms of absorption and resistance to disease._
> 
> http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50463



Not what he is suggesting, a light dose or 2 won't hurt anything.

Continued HEAVY applications of chems will certainly kill the micro herd, but it's a misconception and a myth that *any* chems will kill them, just like saying that using tap water will kill them. It's just not so. Pool water, perhaps, or tap water so chlorinated you can smell it, but *any* is just using too broad of a brush.

Like I said, think of chems as fast food. A steady diet of them is not healthy, but Mickey D's every once in a while isn't going to hurt.

Wet


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## Wetdog (Sep 15, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Like I said, I really know very little about organics, but how about something like coffee grounds, fairly high in N?



Good stuff, I mainly feed it to my worms.

It's that time thing again. A top dress of coffee grounds would take several weeks to a month before any of that N was available to the plant.

Not like the 'right here, right now' of hydro or chems.

I grew with chems (Jack's mostly), for well over 30 years. Still learning organics and this is the hard part, how do you spot a ?? deficiency 2 weeks to a month in advance? LOL 

Wet


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## Locked (Sep 15, 2011)

Wetdog said:
			
		

> Like I said, think of chems as fast food. A steady diet of them is not healthy, but Mickey D's every once in a while isn't going to hurt.
> 
> Wet




I like that bro....thanks for clearing that up.


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## BBFan (Sep 15, 2011)

Hi Rose!  Getting lots of good advice here.  Personally though, I wouldn't recommend foilar at this stage unless you really got your rh under control.  It is the fastest way to get nutrients to the plant, but I think you've probably turned the corner already.  Why risk bud rot (I'm a little sensitive about that at the moment as I lost a good portion of my outdoor bud to rot).

In using organic teas and feeds, I've never had to wait more than a few days for results to start showing.  Your Roots Organics nutrients should be taking effect very soon, if they haven't already!  You started on this path, don't give up now.  

Nitrogen is pretty much available at any ph between 4.0 and 9.0.  Regardless of the effect of microbial activity and ph balance, it really shouldn't be a concern in this particular situation.

Chem nutes (chelated nutrients) will give you a quicker fix- no doubt about it.  And they won't kill the soil life (takes a lot of built up salts to kill 'em off).  But doesn't that just go against the whole "organics" thing anyway?  Obviously that strain appears to be a heavier feeder than the others.  So now you know.


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## Classic (Sep 15, 2011)

I'm new to growing MJ and even newer to using organics for MJ, having switched to Earth Juice a few months ago.

I have lots of experience with organics on my lawn, though.  I've been using organic practices for over 10 years.  I have never hesitated to sparingly use a chemical to correct a problem with the lawn or shrubs.  If it hurts the micro herd, I can't tell it.

Sure, lawn care is not the same as MJ care but the microbes are microbes and there's no difference there.  As was said earlier, it's not possible to detect a problem a month or two in advance.  You could lose the plant while waiting on the organics to work.  Unless you have reason to need OMRI certification, I wouldn't worry about small chemical doses.


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## BBFan (Sep 15, 2011)

Classic said:
			
		

> I'm new to growing MJ and even newer to using organics for MJ, having switched to Earth Juice a few months ago.
> 
> I have lots of experience with organics on my lawn, though.  I've been using organic practices for over 10 years.  I have never hesitated to sparingly use a chemical to correct a problem with the lawn or shrubs.  If it hurts the micro herd, I can't tell it.
> 
> Sure, lawn care is not the same as MJ care but the microbes are microbes and there's no difference there.  As was said earlier, it's not possible to detect a problem a month or two in advance.  You could lose the plant while waiting on the organics to work.  Unless you have reason to need OMRI certification, I wouldn't worry about small chemical doses.


 
Hey Classic-  The lawn is the only thing I haven't gotten in to full organics yet.  What do you use?  Have you ever tried Milorganite?  Been thinking about that for next year.  Any other tips you can share for established lawns?

Don't mean to hijack your thread Rose.


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## burner (Sep 15, 2011)

*BBFan* - I'm gonna try organics for my lawn this spring..My grandfather gets a load of compost delivered every year that gets spread out on his lawn and it always looks great. I'm gonna do the same thing next year, and seed at the same time. Haven't thought of how i'm going to feed it after that...Maybe maybe 10+ gal. brew of tea and spray it to start off and see how that goes.

Oh Rose ...like BBFan said, sorry for the hijack


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## Rosebud (Sep 15, 2011)

Your welcome to hijack away.
I have been totally organic in the back yard for over ten years. Can't get Mr rb to let lose of his 16-16-16 in the front yard.
I had to quit showing roses when I went organic. That is ok, i was done with that, little did I know it would lead to organic pot.

Hey BB, my dad used to spread manure on our lawn when I was a kid, think organic, then use DDT on the fruit trees. YIKES.


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## burner (Sep 15, 2011)

Rose - why did yah have to stop showing roses when you went organic?


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## Rosebud (Sep 15, 2011)

Because of they had to be perfect for show. Not one thrip suck mark. Maybe in the future they will have an organic section but not now. To be on the show table means a lot of chemicals used.  I don't think roses were meant to be looked at so critically anyway. I don't think it is their purpose. I did it for 20 years though.


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## BBFan (Sep 15, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> I did it for 20 years though.


 
Very impressive.  No wonder you get such good results.


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## burner (Sep 15, 2011)

That's pretty impressive....well if it makes you feel better, I just transplanted two of my rose bushes to a new spot and gave them a nice healthy dose of some fresh brewed tea


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## Rosebud (Sep 15, 2011)

I still like roses, that is where I learned to clone..outside under a mason jar in the shade..leave all winter, waaalaaa..a new rose in the spring.
Burner, i bet your roses are very happy. There are some similarities between the plants, they both like epson salts, promotes basil breaks (new bud shoots) they like tea, they love organic matter. They taught me a lot.


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## Rosebud (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks BB, i am not getting the best results this week, but I appreciate the compliment.


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## burner (Sep 15, 2011)

Rose that's a great tip ...I may try cloning one like that this year. Did you ever buy your plants bare root? I've read that it's the way to go...next year i'm going to be getting some more...might try buying them like that


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## Rosebud (Sep 15, 2011)

I would recommend bareroots on their own root stalk, that way if you have a hard freeze they come back as true, not the rootstalk . I don't know if you live where there is winter, i don't remember. A good place to get on own root stalk is Heirloom Roses..com, i like edmundsroses too. If ya ever need any rose help, let me know.


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## burner (Sep 15, 2011)

Thanks rose  I'll take yah up on that offer when I'm ready to get some more. And yeah I'm on the east cost, we can have a pretty heavy winter


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## Rosebud (Sep 15, 2011)

when you get ready to take cuttings shoot me a pm and i will give ya the rundown.


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## Locked (Sep 15, 2011)

burner said:
			
		

> And yeah I'm on the east cost, we can have a pretty heavy winter



Reading this brought back bad memories of last winter and that horrible snow storm....and to think we get to do it all again in a few months. Oh joy. I need to retire and get out of Jersey....Arizona here I come.


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## Classic (Sep 15, 2011)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Hey Classic-  The lawn is the only thing I haven't gotten in to full organics yet.  What do you use?  Have you ever tried Milorganite?  Been thinking about that for next year.  Any other tips you can share for established lawns?
> 
> Don't mean to hijack your thread Rose.


Since Rose gave the Ok...

I use a lot of cotton seed meal, soy bean meal, and the steroid known as corn gluten meal.  I occasionally use Milorganite and alfalfa pellets.  I've always used the "by guess and by golly" method to decide what to do.  Throw out 20 to 25 lbs per 1000 sq ft every month or six weeks and it works well.  That's the beauty of organics, it's hard to go wrong. 

I have a Tif419 bermuda lawn and keep it mowed like a golf course.  It's always gorgeous and gets compliments from anyone who visits.

I highly recommend that you try organic lawn care.  I was skeptical at first but decided that I had nothing to lose.  If something goes wrong, you only have to throw a little Scott's on it and water and you're back to where you started.  Actually, I don't think anything can go wrong.  I converted to organics and never looked back.


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## Ruffy (Sep 15, 2011)

> Reading this brought back bad memories of last winter and that horrible snow storm....and to think we get to do it all again in a few months. Oh joy.



come to canada bud lmfao
thats a 8 ft high shed,


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## burner (Sep 15, 2011)

Think he's got us beat Hammy lol ...all I'm thankful for is my uncle giving me his 1988 BEAST Toro snow blower that owned the snow. Can't wait to break that bad boy out this year


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## Locked (Sep 15, 2011)

burner said:
			
		

> Think he's got us beat Hammy lol ...all I'm thankful for is my uncle giving me his 1988 BEAST Toro snow blower that owned the snow. Can't wait to break that bad boy out this year




Did Summer leave your kneck of the woods today? I actually had to turn on the heater in my work truck come 5 pm or so...was sorry I wore shorts and a short sleeved shirt by the time 8 pm rolled around. I think they said low 40's tonight were I am at.   Good for the grow room though....my flower tent is reading 68 degrees and the lights has been on for 4 hours now..  No more heat worries is a great thing though.


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## Locked (Sep 15, 2011)

Ruffy said:
			
		

> come to canada bud lmfao




Oh no my friend I hve been to Mount Tremblant in Febuary and I know you guys got us beat hands down....sheet one morning we went out to the truck to go hit the slopes and the temp was -28 degrees :holysheep:


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## Ruffy (Sep 15, 2011)

:holysheep:  a skiing hamster! im out west i love skiing:woohoo: :headbang2:


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## Locked (Sep 15, 2011)

Ruffy said:
			
		

> :holysheep:  a skiing hamster! im out west i love skiing:woohoo: :headbang2:




No skiing....snow boarding ...and we do a lil snowmobiling.  I love it up there. Hop on the snowmobile drive to go get something to eat...hit the liquor store...you don't even need a car to get around.


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## BBFan (Sep 16, 2011)

Classic said:
			
		

> Since Rose gave the Ok...
> 
> I use a lot of cotton seed meal, soy bean meal, and the steroid known as corn gluten meal.  I occasionally use Milorganite and alfalfa pellets.  I've always used the "by guess and by golly" method to decide what to do.  Throw out 20 to 25 lbs per 1000 sq ft every month or six weeks and it works well.  That's the beauty of organics, it's hard to go wrong.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Classic- I'm definitely going for it next year.  You can get those meals in a spreadable form?  I'll have to keep my eyes open for that.  I'm in the middle of the woods and I'm always battling weeds- this year was especially bad for crab grass due to the screwy weather season we had.  Thanks!

Rose- how's your young lady doing today?  Any sign of improvement?


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## Classic (Sep 16, 2011)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Thanks Classic- I'm definitely going for it next year.  You can get those meals in a spreadable form?  I'll have to keep my eyes open for that.  I'm in the middle of the woods and I'm always battling weeds- this year was especially bad for crab grass due to the screwy weather season we had.  Thanks!


I buy cattle feed at the feed store.  Cotton seed meal and soy bean meal work Ok in a spreader.  So does corn gluten meal but it's kind of messy.  I usually buy that in a pelletized version so I don't have yellow dust everywhere.  

My preferred method is to put it in a 5 gal bucket and spread it like feeding chickens.  You don't have to be real precise with the application.  It's not like chemical ferts where you can get striping.


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## Rosebud (Sep 16, 2011)

They still look a mess, but i think i see a little more green, less bright yellow, and like I said the leaves aren't so limp.  
Thanks BBfan. and all ya all.

Hamster, get your long pants on your furry little legs.


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## dman1234 (Sep 16, 2011)

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Oh no my friend I hve been to Mount Tremblant in Febuary and I know you guys got us beat hands down....sheet one morning we went out to the truck to go hit the slopes and the temp was -28 degrees :holysheep:


 
The lovely French Canadian Quebec women make it alot easier to take though. :hubba:


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## Rosebud (Sep 16, 2011)

We were married in anchorage and it was 40 below that day.

Once we both had the flu for a week. When we looked outside we couldn't see our car. Seriously.. Pretty state, glad i live where the winters are milder now.


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## dman1234 (Sep 16, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> They still look a mess, but i think i see a little more green, less bright yellow, and like I said the leaves aren't so limp.
> Thanks BBfan. and all ya all.
> 
> Hamster, get your long pants on your furry little legs.


 
Hang in there Rose, it will take time, you will probably lose the really yellow leaves but just keep an eye that your not getting new yellowing.


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## dman1234 (Sep 16, 2011)

HL, isnt it funny you come up to ski Mont Tremblant, and i cross down to ski Smugglers Notch Vermont.


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## Hushpuppy (Sep 16, 2011)

Man you guys are killing me with the snow skiing. I love snow skiing and haven't been able to go since I wacked my back in Oct 02. I have a brand new pair of K2s that I bought in 01 and skiied on them twice before whacking my back. I just about cry sometimes when I see'em in the closet just collecting dust. I hope to be able to go again maybe this year even if I have to stay on the bunny slope


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## soil (Sep 16, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> Wonderful information *Soil*, thank you. I don't think I agree with using mg anything, i feel it would kill my living organisms, am I wrong on that?


 Yes thats incorrect , like wet said it would take a lot more then one or two feedings to kill off your microbes. (imo the most important part of growing, so i would never suggest anything that would kill off the life of your soil)
Your plant is gonna eat the food way before it has a chance to hurt your soil. 



			
				Rosebud said:
			
		

> When I clean out my pots after harvest I am always surprised by the soil that remains throughout the root structure. It would be really hard for me to handle anything bigger then a 5 gall smart pot, but maybe i do need more root space?


 No , you don't need anymore root space then 5 gallons. As long as your feeding correctly then pot size does not matter. I have seen party cups "outdo" my 3 gallon pots.
I personally do better with organics in 3 gallon then in 5 gallon or bigger. (thats just a personal thing though)



			
				Rosebud said:
			
		

> I really did lose a lot of fan leaves, not completely defoliated but over 50% of fans I bet.


 thats gonna have a huge affect on the yield , but at least you didnt lose them all. 
A lot of folks do not realize the importance of a "fan leaf". :icon_smile:
Yes that plant is putting most of its focus on the fruit , but it's the fan leaves that _make_ the fruit. Of course there are many, many factors in "making the fruit" , but the fan leaves are a very important part of that cycle. A leaf processes more light then the fruit itself does. 

So, in my opinion our job is to keep the foliage as green and healthy as possible all the way to the end. That rule will always yield the best and produce the better buds.





			
				BBFan said:
			
		

> Nitrogen is pretty much available at any ph between 4.0 and  9.0.  Regardless of the effect of microbial activity and ph balance, it  really shouldn't be a concern in this particular situation.


 You have a lot of very good info BB ! we all appreciate it! 

I agree the ph shouldnt be a factor in your situation , but the microbial activity is *everything* in a fully organic environment. The plant cant eat the food if the microbes dont eat it first.  







			
				Roddy said:
			
		

> Must ask, wouldn't adding any chem at this point kill all  the beneficial microbes? The sticky on this says it will. Any instant  food as you've described would have to be chem based...right?



Yes when i refer to instant food , i am referring to chemicals.

The microbes **** out the same "chemicals" thats in instant foods, so that would make one think there is no difference between "organic" an "chemical". 
I dont personally know all the science behind that mess , but i do know there is a *huge* difference in the two.

*Rose* , a lot of liquid "organic" foods have a lil bit of available N in them and thats what your girl needs. So with all this good info from different folks , you know whats wrong with her, she is just hungry , so whether its a low dose of "available" food in liquid organics or a higher dose of food through chems, thats the only way to fix her quick.

I believe every true organicist needs instant foods and chemical pesticides layin around for the "just in case" of things. 



soil :farm:


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 16, 2011)

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Reading this brought back bad memories of last winter and that horrible snow storm....and to think we get to do it all again in a few months. Oh joy. I need to retire and get out of Jersey....Arizona here I come.



The older I get, the better Arizona looks.  I have snow like Ruffy's pics and temps like your Mount Tremblant.


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## Rosebud (Sep 16, 2011)

Thank you again Soil. I am solid organic and have been for years. I don't have any chemicals hanging around for emergency's. I have not needed them. She is turning around slowly and we will see about the outcome of all this.
I am thrilled you are here and that you  love the soil micorbes as much as i do. Just can't be mostly organic. I didn't know I was an all or nothing kind of girl. But I am in this case and in my yard too. I did it the other way for years...this is better for me.


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## soil (Sep 16, 2011)

yea i have seen first hand , all the benefits of beneficial's in the soil. i love microbes an dirt. 
i have a worm farm , compost bins and i always reuse soil. i breed aerobic microbes in teas and anaerobic microbes in EM. I LOVE ORGANICS !

If you have castings layin around then a sprinkle of mycorrizae covered with worm castings as a top dressing is a fairly quick way to get more food in there. its very amazing to watch the roots crawl through the top of your pot eatin up all the good stuff.




soil :icon_smile:


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## Rosebud (Sep 16, 2011)

I will make a tea this weekend and feed the heck out of everything. 
Is that why the roots are coming to the surface? The last three grows are like that, i keep covering them with new soil and they keep coming up...I didn't know that...wow, thanks.


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## ston-loc (Sep 16, 2011)

OT Rose, sorry. But that's awesome reading about your "rose" history. I've gotta take a pic of one of my family's back yard and see what you think. Rose bushes like crazy! They've given us a few too. Nothing picture worthy though cause I slack off with the caring for em part.


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## soil (Sep 17, 2011)

yup they get hungry an reach all into the new dirt lookin for food , just like a worm. plus some types of bacteria even pull the nitrogen out of the air and use it. (i dont think its much , but its still our mother nature at her finest! )




soil


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## Roddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> I will make a tea this weekend and feed the heck out of everything.
> Is that why the roots are coming to the surface? The last three grows are like that, i keep covering them with new soil and they keep coming up...I didn't know that...wow, thanks.



I like the tea idea, Rosie!

Mine come to the surface too, but I think that's because they've used just about all available space in the planter lol. I would go bigger, but using 10 ad 7 gal smartpots now. Am thinking I might play around with my 20gal tote again, go back to the first grow and try to reproduce that big 10oz harvest! I too cover the roots up, I use straight worm castings.


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## Roddy (Sep 17, 2011)

Soil, good helpful info, my friend!


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## soil (Sep 18, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Soil, good helpful info, my friend!



thanks roddy ! 



soil :icon_smile:


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## NorCalHal (Sep 20, 2011)

Soil is a pimp for sure. You know your stuff my man. Great advice.


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## BBFan (Sep 20, 2011)

Hey Rose-  Did she bounce back?  How about an update.


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## Locked (Sep 20, 2011)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Hey Rose-  Did she bounce back?  How about an update.




:yeahthat:
:icon_smile:


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## Rosebud (Sep 20, 2011)

Well, i wouldn't say they have bounced back. The have a weird (forced) shade of green to the smaller leaves instead of the bright yellow of before. The buds look really small for day 33 but that is  subjective. I think i lost a lot of fan leaves.  Here, you guys see what ya think.







​


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## soil (Sep 21, 2011)

she seems to be eatin a lil better , the yellow has not gotten a whole lot worse, like i figured it would by now.

I dont think she will yield like your "usual" but she seems to be doin a lil better.... it usally only takes a few days for them real yellow leaves to fall off completely (or shrivel into dust) and yours dont look any worse , maybe a little better so keep up what your doin rose.





soil


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## Rosebud (Sep 21, 2011)

Thank you soil I appreciate your help in this mess. Good to have you here.


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## 4u2sm0ke (Sep 21, 2011)

Id smoke it

Have ya tried some coffee grounds tea?   


:bong:


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## BBFan (Sep 23, 2011)

Hiya Rose!  I'm stumped.  Sorry she didn't come back around for you.  It even looks like a little burn going now.  Very strange indeed.  Though you can tell she's trying by the way the leaves are up.  If it was mine I would dose her again with blood meal.  Best of luck with her.


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## Rosebud (Sep 25, 2011)

Update:12 days later I think they are going to be alright. The buds are growing and the leaves have green. The fans are pretty much toast, but  like someone said, it is just going to set me back some time but they will be ok.




​
Thank you for all your help! I appreciate it A LOT.


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## drfting07 (Sep 26, 2011)

Have you flushed the containers are least once during the grow? i do 20 gallons for a 10 gallon pot. And also, try foliar feeding with a tea on the undersides of the leaves.


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## soil (Sep 28, 2011)

she is slowed up , but she is WAY better then she was , so very good job rose!





soil


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## soil (Sep 28, 2011)

drfting07 said:
			
		

> Have you flushed the containers are least once during the grow? i do 20 gallons for a 10 gallon pot. And also, try foliar feeding with a tea on the undersides of the leaves.


99% of the time , "flushing" is a waste of time when dealing with organics.
You can not just "flush" away organic foods , the food is part of the soil , so all that will do is wet your dirt for way longer then you want it.

The only thing you can "flush" away is the salt build ups in the pot , but in my opinion that only works with hydro mediums.

the chemical ions bond with the dirt ions an become one and water cant change that. 
If the chemical does not bond with the dirt and it becomes an extra salt then the water _might _push it through the pot.






soil :icon_smile:


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## Rosebud (Sep 28, 2011)

I have never flushed in my grow, what would I be flushing? 
I gave everyone a drench of tea yesterday, thank you Soil. How long will this set me back I wonder, it doesn't matter i have lots of time, not in a hurry. I will keep you posted. Thanks again all.


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## BBFan (Sep 28, 2011)

Hi Rose- It shouldn't set you back as far as maturation, but will definitely impact yield.  Looking much better though.


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## soil (Sep 30, 2011)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Hi Rose- It shouldn't set you back as far as maturation, but will definitely impact yield.  Looking much better though.



:yeahthat:

My exact thoughts too. 

I believe you saved her in time to not lose more then 25 to 35% of what the yield would have been.






soil


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## drfting07 (Oct 15, 2011)

Flushing out salt buildups with PHd water. Salt can blockout nutrient uptake, as well as PH.


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## Rosebud (Oct 25, 2011)

Update:

I know what i did wrong. I have always used a little happy from along with the FFOF to add mycho.. I finally remembered that I had gone real heavy on the Happy Frog and light on the FFOF as I ran out of that. Happy frog is half as strong as ffof. That is what I did wrong, the other thing is it was way too hot in there this summer. So thank you guys. It was operator error.


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## Rosebud (Oct 25, 2011)

PS. the plants in question are not ripe yet! they are at 10 weeks and usually come down at 9. I see mostly clear, little cloudy. weird huh?


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## BBFan (Oct 25, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> PS. the plants in question are not ripe yet! they are at 10 weeks and usually come down at 9. I see mostly clear, little cloudy. weird huh?


 
Weird indeed, but I always seem to find some type of anomaly with every grow.

So you think the FFOF has more organic nutrients in it?  I've never used FFOF but I do use some Happy Frog from time to time.  I even got some burn on some seedlings in it, so I thought it kind of hot.

Hope things keep getting better for you Rose!


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## Rosebud (Oct 25, 2011)

I learned that happy frog has nutes to last 3 weeks and ffof has it for 5.
I was not giving my plants enough to eat. Playing catchup doesn't work in organics, do you think?
My new dirt will work better I hope. Thanks BBF.


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## Locked (Oct 25, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> I learned that happy frog has nutes to last 3 weeks and ffof has it for 5.
> I was not giving my plants enough to eat. Playing catchup doesn't work in organics, do you think?
> My new dirt will work better I hope. Thanks BBF.




Glad you figured it out Rose....yeah growing all organic is like walking a tight rope with no net below sometimes.  I hve been researching it for a while now trying to decide if I want to give it a run and it seems in organics if you get behind the 8 ball a bit it can be hard to make quick corrections because things take longer to kick in. I feed by eye and rely on how quickly the Chem nutrients will allow me to catch up to a hvy feeder. I will definitely gve organics a try someday. I like the idea of it and wldnt mind cooking up a soil mix that will feed my ladies from start to finish and all I hve to do is water . And the fact that ph is not as important in organics is a cherry on top.


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## Rosebud (Oct 25, 2011)

i hope you do it sometime Hammy. It would be fun to see what you think the difference, if any, would be in the grow taste, etc.


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## SKAGITMAGIC (Oct 25, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> I learned that happy frog has nutes to last 3 weeks and ffof has it for 5.
> I was not giving my plants enough to eat. Playing catchup doesn't work in organics, do you think?
> My new dirt will work better I hope. Thanks BBF.


 
Same here rose, the happyfrog's not doing it for me, I'm gonna use it for my clones only, Going back to my regular mix, well I've got 60 gallons of refurbished used soil for my next grow, well actually my next grow is planted, mostly in pure happy frog, I'll just feed them some, for sure alaong the way, the grow after will be in a used 3 little birds mix.


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## soil (Oct 26, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> I was not giving my plants enough to eat.



yea thats what i was thinkin ... i been through that many many times with organics , but wont give up till my dirt is *perfect *


you 'll get it right too ..... i love organics  :icon_smile:






soil


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 26, 2011)

Hey, it's not surprising that the harvest is running behind. It seems like anytime you have plants that get sick or damaged that they lose a week or two on their completion schedule. I wouldn't worry so long as they look relatively healthy. Just let them set their new schedule and watch them closely.


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## Rosebud (Nov 2, 2011)

Well, those two plants are drying on a rack now after 11 weeks and they usually take 8. I will guess I get 1/3 of my usual harvest out of her. I learned some things so that is good. I didn't take pictures of her last day as she looked terrible and I don't need a picture to remember this.  Thanks again for all your help.


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## soil (Nov 5, 2011)

i know this makes you wanna puke but in my opinion you have to have an instant food layin around until the dirt is perfect. 

even if its fox farm grow big. thats an almost organic food with enough instant in it to act fast.

i use MG 24-8-16 when they need food NOW. 








soil


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## Rosebud (Nov 5, 2011)

I got half the harvest...3 oz total...would have been 6 if not so stressed.  I am happy with that though. I have learned a lot... Sometimes i have trouble with the "no swearing" part of this forum...ha. 
Thanks a million soil for sticking with me through this.


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## SKAGITMAGIC (Nov 5, 2011)

Gosh darn I know what you mean!! Hey Rose I learned some things on your grow also. look into micro nutrient supplements, I think thats what Soils talking about, suppose to fix defieciencys quicker, most of my no swearing applies to my spelling, lol, anyway I 'm currently useing Earth juices Micro-Blast for foliar spraying etc, I couldn't find mineral matrix, my usual ace in the hole!! I guess the micro gets in quicker, I don't know,  But they work!!


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## soil (Nov 9, 2011)

SKAGITMAGIC said:
			
		

> Gosh darn I know what you mean!! Hey Rose I learned some things on your grow also. look into micro nutrient supplements, I think thats what Soils talking about, suppose to fix defieciencys quicker, most of my no swearing applies to my spelling, lol, anyway I 'm currently useing Earth juices Micro-Blast for foliar spraying etc, I couldn't find mineral matrix, my usual ace in the hole!! I guess the micro gets in quicker, I don't know,  But they work!!



first off , this no cussin s#it has to go. this is a f$ckin pot forum , come on.

ok enough of that , the mods will burn me up. 

Be careful with the EJ micro-blast magic. its a very good micro nute , but its a chemical an only needs to be used once or twice a month. 


what i was talking about magic , is not micro nutes , but instant food.
when a fully organic grower does not have their dirt _perfect _i believe they need "instant" foods layin around to help when a emergency def pops up.

when i say "instant" i just mean chemical. chem foods are available to the plant instantly as to where organics need broken down just for the plant to be able to use it.

i feed with only water , but when the soil aint pumpin out enough food i have to put a couple of drops of MG in the water an that gives them the instant boost they need right now, then i go back to the only water schedule ...... then when i perfect my dirt , i wont need anything but water, an im pretty close to that now.

alright enough babblin 


Well rose you learned the hard way which in my opinion is always the best way. The very worst thing about plants is when they get sick or die an you never knew why 
at least you didnt go through that one this time.

Much love rose , an would love to see your next ones.




soil :icon_smile:


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## SKAGITMAGIC (Nov 10, 2011)

It was my understanding that the chemical nutes didn't mix well with the organic live stuff in the dirt!! I'd heard that the chemicals damaged the little eco system, the way the micro-nutrient supplements read, is the're formulated to fix the deficiences now!!  I haven't done a foliar with the EJ yet, I ran out of my regular stuff called mineral Matrix, 100% organic,100% vegan, I thought it was instant food!! Anyway i'm having a ton of problems with some weird plant sickness that arrived with 3 sick plants, I'm gonna just start fresh real quick, new everything, Heading for Oregon!! getting new Nutes and plants, With all the trouble though, the trainwrecks just hummin along,


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## Rosebud (Nov 10, 2011)

Ya know, i have been thinking about this. I don't know if one dose of a chemical fert would kill everything beneficial in your soil or not. I need to be more open minded about the thought of using a chemical for a quick fix.  Maybe had I done that with these two plants i would have had a usual harvest.

Skag, arent you using happy frog which i think i will change the name to sad frog? that is when all my stuff started. I have wanted to try earthjuice. I have all the roots organic line. I look forward to donating the whole thing when I get my dirt up and ready and see that it really will eliminate my need for nutes. So I won't get any EJ.


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## SKAGITMAGIC (Nov 10, 2011)

Ya, Rose I bought a ton of HF when it went 5 bucks a C/F, My plants look great in it, real healthy. I've got scale though, I've been working with the UW ag. Extension in Mt. Vernon, These gals got all excited about me comeing to them with MJ problems, and hope I come back , though they don't wish any problems on me lol. Maybe some of Chefnovelle's old cronies. I'll post in the HoosierPAPA thread!!  Ya I wondered about mixing organics and chemical nutes, I'm gonna stay away from it, but like i said my girls are pullin out of the funk, I went to war today, full out assault on the scale, its alumni, and it's affiliates!!


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## Rosebud (Nov 10, 2011)

How do you kill scale? How did you get scale?


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## BBFan (Nov 11, 2011)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> Ya know, i have been thinking about this. *I don't know if one dose of a chemical fert would kill everything beneficial in your soil or not.* I need to be more open minded about the thought of using a chemical for a quick fix. Maybe had I done that with these two plants i would have had a usual harvest.
> 
> Skag, arent you using happy frog which i think i will change the name to sad frog? that is when all my stuff started. I have wanted to try earthjuice. I have all the roots organic line. I look forward to donating the whole thing when I get my dirt up and ready and see that it really will eliminate my need for nutes. So I won't get any EJ.


 
Hiya Rose-
I doubt it would kill anything, let alone "everything".

But, that being said, there are many foilar applications that are "natural" that will take effect just as quickly.  Some "natural" (trying to avoid the word 'organic') ferts are already chelated, or quickly become so when mixed with a chelating agent like..... wait for it..... molasses!


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