# Sick Widow, any ideas?



## Roddy (Apr 3, 2011)

I checked my plants last night, all seemed fine except the widow did look like it was yellowing a bit, told the boy to up the nutes on her. This morning (no nutes added yet), I looked in and spotted some weird "insect" looking things on the stems, I pulled a few off and checked under scope...they're not bugs, but look like where a "blood clotted" on a human...kinda (not a dark scab, but crystally red). I have no way of getting a picture of these.



 I pulled the widow out for closer inspection, noted some of her leaves had fallen off and, as I touched a few, they fell right off the plant...all the lower veg.




Here's a few of the many leaves that have fallen off.

The gal looks to have a nute def...or two....but the many little "scab-like" things on her (there were somewhere around 20 of them on mostly on the stems on the tops of the tall branches) are a concern of course. Could these have been egg sacs from a bug of some sort? I haven't seen a bug anywhere and I don't see ANY sign of these moving to the plant right beside her. She is dying fast, though.


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## PencilHead (Apr 3, 2011)

Bump. ????????????


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## Dr.KNOWITALL (Apr 3, 2011)

Hmm. I don't know anything, but checking on the leaf deficiency chart provided on the site. I would suggest it could be nitrogen, zinc, or phosphorus. What nutrients are you using??


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## Roddy (Apr 3, 2011)

I'm using General Organics nutes at full strength.


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## Rosebud (Apr 3, 2011)

I have looked at your pic's three times and still have no idea what the problem is. You really can't get a pic of what you described? really need to see more, up close.


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## maineharvest (Apr 3, 2011)

Is the defiency working its way from bottom to top?  Is it getting enough water?


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## Roddy (Apr 3, 2011)

The little red spots were just a touch bigger than a pencil lead, and no, my camera was doing good at getting those blurry pics.


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## Roddy (Apr 3, 2011)

Yes from bottom to top, yes, I water fully then let dry.


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## kaotik (Apr 3, 2011)

just lookin at the size of the plant and the top of that pot.. maybe a rootbound issue?

got nothing for that bloodclot thingy though


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## Roddy (Apr 3, 2011)

It's a 5gal pot, the plant is 26" tall, not rootbound, but will be going to a 10gal before budding.


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## Rosebud (Apr 3, 2011)

I am perplexed. I bet you are too. I sure wish i could see better, can you borrow another camera?

Sounds like your doing everything right as far as watering. I was wondering if it is too wet. I am scratching my head here. Shoot Roddy. Sorry.


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## maineharvest (Apr 3, 2011)

Going from bottom to top usually means your dealing with a mobile deficiency which means it is either Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Potasium, zinc, or Magnesium.  Maybe you should hit it with a complete set of nutrients.  Is your ph ok?


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## Roddy (Apr 3, 2011)

yes, ph is good, will hit with extra nutes tonight and see if she respnds!


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## NorCalHal (Apr 3, 2011)

Maine is correct, the girl is starving...feed her.


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## Roddy (Apr 3, 2011)

hjmmm, seems to have come on pretty fast, but will double up on the feed!


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## maineharvest (Apr 3, 2011)

I can atleast say that you are lacking in nitrogen.  Your leaves should be a few shades darker green.


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## Gixxerman420 (Apr 3, 2011)

I'm calling a nitrogen def. also... May be zinc and phosphorus slightly, but not to a worried point... Definitely an N def. though!


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## Roddy (Apr 4, 2011)

Cool, THANKS!!! I also have the in bud OG starting to have clawed leaves at the top of the plant, I know I read about this but cannot find the info again, help please??


Starting to learn the different needs of multiple strains lol, oh the fun of it all!!!


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## PencilHead (Apr 4, 2011)

I'm guessing this red-dot stuff is spread around enough you don't think it's just nutrient splash, right?


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## Roddy (Apr 4, 2011)

Definitely not nute splash. Not on leaves, on stems at the tops and the red spots are bumps or raised. You can tell the spots are over areas of damage, the stems are blackened or discolored under the spots...almost like a cut and a clot.


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## Roddy (Apr 12, 2011)

OK, update on these...they are not getting any better.

I checked nuted water and pre-nuted water both, pre-nute at 6.4 and nuted at 6.7 if memory serves (might have been 6.8, but that was a few joints ago), the ph isn't an issue at all!

We upped the food by 1/4's to double strength, the plants are all still looking bad, leaves are all falling off still. It's affecting the White Widow, Great White Shark, Skunk #11, OG Kush and Orange Bud (all are in 5gal pots and not been transplanted), I am also seeing an early fade on the Train Wreck, which should have close to a month or so still but is seeing serious yellowing of the leaves and has been for more than a week now. TR is in a 10gal


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## Roddy (Apr 13, 2011)

No ideas??

The only differences to this grow (besides more light lol) are the nutes (switched to GO from FF) and these haven't been transplanted. I'm thinking I am going to transplant to 10gals and see if this helps?? I hate to, but they all just entered bud anyway...


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## Roddy (Apr 13, 2011)

Plants are in darkness or I'd shoot a few pics, but the pic in the opening post is pretty much how all look.


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## blackwind (Apr 13, 2011)

Hey Roddy. Did you switch to GO after you had been feeding these same plants FF? FF is chelated nutes where the GO is not. I had a similar problem once when I was using FF in soil. I'm just guessing but I think the FF kills the beneficial microbes in the soil and therefore the Organic nutes don't break down properly to be used by the plants. Water them down real well with plain water and check the ph in the runoff, I bet it's real low. I'd suggest re potting them, include some mycorrhizae in the soil and let the organics build up the microbes. 

I'm pulling for you man! Much green mojo.


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## Roddy (Apr 14, 2011)

No, none of these were introduced to the FF line at all, but good thinking!!!

I did transplant them all from 5gal to 10gal, we'll see how that goes! I could do a myco boost, might try that if they still look bad.

Would underwatering cause the leaves to drop like this??

THANKS Blackwind, good post!


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## PencilHead (Apr 14, 2011)

blackwind said:
			
		

> but I think the FF kills the beneficial microbes in the soil and therefore the Organic nutes don't break down properly to be used by the plants


 
Yeah?  You sure about this?


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## blackwind (Apr 14, 2011)

No Pencil, I can't say I'm sure about it but I had a plant I ran FF on and then revegged. The same kind of thing happened. It got really sickly and kind of stopped growing. I eventually repotted her and tried to remove as much of the existing soil as possible then started her on Earth Juice and she came right around.


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## Roddy (Apr 14, 2011)

I am positive about it Pencil, this is why I switched nute lines!

_Test 4 Fox Farm Full line = Grow Big (6-4-4)- Tiger Bloom (2-8-4)- Big Bloom (0.01-0.3-0.7)- Open Sesame (5-45-19)- Beastie Bloomz (0-50-30) - Cha-ching (9-50-10) 

I've been eager to write about Fox farm for some time. It's an extremely popular and effective chemical based product. If you've read the above information than you understand the importance of a "living" substrate. A diverse and rich bacterial and fungal balanced medium contains enough beneficial organisms to out compete pathogens and disease causing bacteria and creates accessible stored nutrient content. Chemical fertilizers kill off much of the microbial life and allow for limited forms of absorption and resistance to disease. When some microbial life dies off the fragile "circle of life" follows. If for example we eliminated bacterial life, this will lead to an abundance of fungus. Enzymes produced from fungus are acidic. This drives the pH down creating nutrient lock-up and unattractive environments for life, specifically bacteria. Fox farm definitely suffers from this chemical kill off scenario. _

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50463


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## blackwind (Apr 14, 2011)

Cool, Roddy. Glad to know I'm not the only one that had that opinion of FF. How're your girls after the transplant?


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## Roddy (Apr 15, 2011)

Gals looked good this morning, will take a few days if at all to see any signs that they are rebounding, leaf loss is really the only symptoms. I think things will be fine, we'll likely see a small yield off these 5 though!


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## shuggy4105 (Apr 15, 2011)

Red leasions on stem is a sign of (Nh4) toxicity. Too much amoniacal nitrogen. Looks the same with the leaves.


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## Roddy (Apr 15, 2011)

So I am overfeeding them?

THANKS for the input, Shuggy!


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## shuggy4105 (Apr 15, 2011)

wouldn`t say over-fert of all nutes my friend, but as far as (Nh4+) i.e too much amoniacal (N), then yes. Try not to use too much of this type within chem ferts, lookout for Nitrite which is the form most quickly available to the plants and the best . All explained on the NPK decleration on packs.
It`s very hard to burn your gals with organics, not impossible but hard. the leaves do look like there may be some deficeincies; are they falling independantly or coming off with a gently tug?


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## Roddy (Apr 16, 2011)

Am using organics. Most leaves had fallen off without help, some have been gently tugged to check. I read where the 707 headband soil (Roots Organic) was a bit "weak" and some amend the soil....this is above my head lol, but will be checking into what I need to do on future grows.


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## shuggy4105 (Apr 16, 2011)

Leaves falling without withering can be a sign of over-watering, or lack of drainage... Or a deficeincy advanceing...
Is your run-off clear?


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## Roddy (Apr 20, 2011)

Runoff is clear! Most leaves have stopped falling with the transplant, however there's a bit still going on. Also, found another red spot today, it was on a leaf...went to touch it (a tiny translucent red splotch) and it flaked right off.


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## Snickerdoodle (Apr 20, 2011)

I was wondering if you have any Cal-Mag by Botanicare?  Or a similar product.  It might not help this go round, but try using 5ml per gallon with future grows, especially when you are being agressive with fertilizers.  Also, don't rule out a virus that is causing a calcium deffiiency.  Be very careful with pots and other items that you have used in this grow.  Sterilize them before reusing them.  Good Luck!


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## nouvellechef (Apr 20, 2011)

Virus is a long shot. I have gone 3 cycles and not washed my containers. I know, bad. Whenever you switch nutrient regimes, you almost always have a learning curb with them. Especially if your trying to run full organic.


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## nvthis (Apr 21, 2011)

Hey Roddy, do me a quick little favor, will you? Go ahead and pull the plant from the pot and have a look on the inside of the pot. What do you see? Anything that might look like a white powdery residue around the drain holes? Around the rim at soil level maybe? On top of the soil around the stalk? Just humor me a minute.. 

And when you say "clot", is it like the stem was puntured and the wound dried like that? And are there several on one stem or petiole, but not on others?

I'm feelin' ya man, migrating or ghost deficiencies are a beeatch. Any flyers in your room?


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## Roddy (Apr 21, 2011)

Snickerdoodle said:
			
		

> I was wondering if you have any Cal-Mag by Botanicare?  Or a similar product.  It might not help this go round, but try using 5ml per gallon with future grows, especially when you are being agressive with fertilizers.  Also, don't rule out a virus that is causing a calcium deffiiency.  Be very careful with pots and other items that you have used in this grow.  Sterilize them before reusing them.  Good Luck!



Yep, cal/mag is in the arsenal and being used regularly...even tried upping the dosage a bit.

Will do on sterilization....guess with the smart pots, this means sun bleaching?

Appreciate ALL replies everyone, THANKS a ton!!!!


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## Roddy (Apr 22, 2011)

I forgot to last night, was a hurried evening with golf and coming home late to check on the gals. Will try tonight, but the pots are smart pots and ripping them down isn't a good idea unless transplanting since they're trickier to work with in this regard. Will do what I can and see what's there...


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## nvthis (Apr 22, 2011)

Forget what I mentioned about pulling them.. Probably nothing to see in a smart pot any way. Have a look in the soil on the top around the stem for anything powdery and white. Also, look around for any flyers... This probably is not what you are experiencing, but when it come to the process of elimination to solve whatever issue you are having, this step is something I would consider imperitive..


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## Bleek187 (Apr 22, 2011)

just a question.. is light reaching the bottom of the plant?  i notice alot of times if the plant gets 2 big and blocks light from the lower part of the plant then exactly what is going on in your pix happens to the bottom of the plant.. leafs die.. turn yellow. brown.. fall off.. just a thought


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