# few questions for you experienced hydroponic guys/gals



## Aurora_Indicas_Dad (May 21, 2008)

i've always grown in soil but my grow i'm gonna be starting within the next month or so will be my first hydroponic grow.(in an igs system) i was checkin out the GH rockwool plugs w/ tray at insidesun.com as well as the 6''x6''x5.8'' hugo rockwool cubes from hydrowarehouse. my questins are:
 1)Even though they arent the same brand rockwool,will the GH plugs still fit into the Hugo cubes?
2)after i put the plugs into these cubes i'll be done transplanting right?
(a 6x6x5.8 inch cube is big enough to use from  the time their 2 inches-harvest?)
3)also,would anybody recommend using hydroton on the bottom and top of the cube or should i just have the cube only in the pot?
4)i read that b-4 using the rockwool,you just soak it in water with a ph level of 5.5,if this is the case,what is the bottle of stuff they sell at the hydroponic shop (i think its reconditioning) if all you have to do is soak the rockwool in water,it wouldnt make any sense to buy this stuff.correct?

anyways,sorry bout all the questions,i just couldnt pull anything up from the search engine.
 Thanks for any help


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## Ilikebigbuds (May 21, 2008)

what kind of dro system are you going to be using?


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

I think all IGS systems are drip systems right??

1) Not sure about this one

2) Yes, you can use these, however, depending on how large the inside diameter hole is, you might think about starting in smaller rockwool cubes and simply place those into the larger ones after the seedlings are actually present.

3) I would surround the cube with hydroton, this is what really supports the plant in the systems. A rockwool cube will be left loose, and the plant will get top heavy QUICK, which means by then roots will be everywhere and harder to support the top heavy plant.

4) I don't use any kind of water or any soaking prior to using rockwool cubes. I soak them when I need to use them and that's it. No problems yet. This is just one of those OCD type things people do, but really does not effect your end result. Rockwool is pH neutral as it is anyway, so really, you want your HYDRO water to be pH'd as this will be flooding the rockwool cube anyway after the plants are put into the system.




			
				Aurora_Indicas_Dad said:
			
		

> 1)Even though they arent the same brand rockwool,will the GH plugs still fit into the Hugo cubes?
> 2)after i put the plugs into these cubes i'll be done transplanting right?
> (a 6x6x5.8 inch cube is big enough to use from  the time their 2 inches-harvest?)
> 3)also,would anybody recommend using hydroton on the bottom and top of the cube or should i just have the cube only in the pot?
> ...


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## Aurora_Indicas_Dad (May 22, 2008)

yea,its a dripper system (mine will hold 40 plants) the guys at the loal hydroponic shop said  they have done some  good grows on these systems.
i actually bought it for $100


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> 4) I don't use any kind of water or any soaking prior to using rockwool cubes. I soak them when I need to use them and that's it. No problems yet. This is just one of those OCD type things people do, but really does not effect your end result. Rockwool is pH neutral as it is anyway, so really, you want your HYDRO water to be pH'd as this will be flooding the rockwool cube anyway after the plants are put into the system.


 
Very untrue, rockwool's PH is too high for a hydroponic system because it has residual lime from the manufacturing process and Really should be treated with a solution that is Ph'd to 5.5 - 6 for atleast a few hours to dissolve the lime, i let mine sit overnight most times.  It also is inert, so it has no nutrient values, so soaking the cubes in a mild nute solution is also recommended.

But preconditioning rockwool is definiately not an OCD type thing that has no impact on things.


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

All rockwools are not the same. The best are produced from pure basaltic rock (diabase). The rockwools produced from diabase have a mineral balance that is inert and nonreactive. A few rockwools are produced from slag left over from smelting operations. These rockwools contain a high proportion of metals and may be somewhat reactive with the nutrient solution. High quality rockwools should have a uniform fiber diameter, even binder distribution and a low proportion of shot (mineral pellets that have not been spun into fibers).

Good quality rockwool has already been treated and cleaned. Thus rendering it pH neutral upon receipt. 

YOUR water/nutrient solution's are what change the pH levels of the rockwool. Of course, depending on your rockwool quality.


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## Timmyjg6 (May 22, 2008)

Well done...


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

All that I can tell you is to go to grodans website and do some reading on rockwool, as a byproduct of the manufacturing process, the cubes get coated in lime, it has nothing to do with the quality of the rockwool, grodan are some of the best rockwool created for the horticultural industry and these are their recomendations.

When you soak the cubes it dissolves the lime, please read, read, and read a little bit more

Rockwool is made of basalt rock and limestone that is melted and spun into fibers, that is where the residual lime comes from


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## snuggles (May 22, 2008)

I have to side with MP on this one. I always soak and always heard it was a must. I sure would like to get some of that other rockwool though MD, sounds interesting and would be a lot easier IMO. I also would soak for 24 hours in pHed water with a lite nute application and a water conditioner if you have one....like hydroguard or something similar. In my experience if you don't soak rockwool it will screw up the pH and if you didn't know any better you would get frustrated. Nothing like pHing all the time and not knowing why LOL.


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

Here is a passage from wikipedia about Rockwool / stonewool use in hydroponics:

Use in hydroponics

Mineral wool is used for its ability to hold large quantities of water and at the same time maintain a high percentage of air as well. This aids root growth and nutrient uptake. The fibrous nature of mineral wool also provides a good mechanical structure to hold the plant stable. Mineral wool has a high pH, which is unsuitable to plant growth. This requires correcting or conditioning. Conditioned mineral wool has a long, stable pH.

And here is the link so you can read it for yourself:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwool


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

That is why so many commerical gardeners are switching to Oasis cubes, because they are similar to rockwool cubes, but they actually do have a stable ph, so all that you have to do is saturate the cubes and you are ready to go.

Could you have been talking about those?


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> All that I can tell you is to go to grodans website and do some reading on rockwool, as a byproduct of the manufacturing process, the cubes get coated in lime, it has nothing to do with the quality of the rockwool, grodan are some of the best rockwool created for the horticultural industry and these are their recomendations.
> 
> When you soak the cubes it dissolves the lime, please read, read, and read a little bit more
> 
> Rockwool is made of basalt rock and limestone that is melted and spun into fibers, that is where the residual lime comes from



Information I posted above was from a Gro|Dan site. 

Please take some of your own advice and re-read read read what I posted about the higher quality rockwool is already LIME FREE from pre-soaking before packaging/shipping.


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

so please post a link, because i have already provided 1 that says exactly what i am saying, and i can provide you with tons of other links that all say the same thing... So please show me where it says not to presoak Grodan Rockwool, please show me this pre soaked, lime free product


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

Delta Gro-Blocks are cubes of stonewool (rockwool) that have a grooved base which promotes drainage to avoid root rot.
*Grodan stonewool is pH neutral*, making it easy to maintain the ideal gardening pH value of 5.5 - 6.5. Each block is wrapped in white plastic on all sides for individual use. 

http://www.4hydroponics.com/grow_room/rockwool.asp

How about that for starters... I'm going through my bookmarks for the other which was from a grodan leaflet in pdf form.


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

This is from the link that you provided:

soak the the Gro-Block in pH5.5 water overnight 

for some reason you are not understanding, that yes rockwool itself has somewhat of a stable PH, it is the lime that causes the ph to rise, you obviously did not even read through your own link, because it tells you to soak the block for 24 hours in ph'd water overnight


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> so please post a link, because i have already provided 1 that says exactly what i am saying, and i can provide you with tons of other links that all say the same thing... So please show me where it says not to presoak Grodan Rockwool, please show me this pre soaked, lime free product



I am not denying there is lime and such in the rockwool, it's how it's made. We don't need that information, however, you're suggesting that it's not pH neutral. As I have already pointed out IN THE LINK ABOVE, it is.

You're caught up on the link saying to SOAK in pH 5.5, yes understandable. This is like saying... "make sure your water in your hydro reservoir is pH'd to 6.0"

It's because your PLANT needs proper pH levels! A rockwool cube IS pH neutral! This is what you disagreed with from the very start. 

Without any pH or proper pH you can't grow good plants, hence the reason to soak. You soak to promote root growth. Any and everything you add to this cube or hydro system is going to change the pH. No arguing that, but the cube itself IS neutral.


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

like I said this is the advantage of Oasis foam as opposed to rockwool


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

No what you said originally is that you do not have to soak rockwool cubes to condition them, you said that that was OCD, I simply stated that rockwool has to be soaked before it is used...


Here is my original post:

Very untrue, rockwool's PH is too high for a hydroponic system because it has residual lime from the manufacturing process and Really should be treated with a solution that is Ph'd to 5.5 - 6 for atleast a few hours to dissolve the lime, i let mine sit overnight most times. It also is inert, so it has no nutrient values, so soaking the cubes in a mild nute solution is also recommended.

But preconditioning rockwool is definiately not an OCD type thing that has no impact on things


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

You are the one switching because up until now you WERE saying that there was no lime, that yours was pre soaked and had no lime, you are the one switching your position not me


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> Information I posted above was from a Gro|Dan site.
> 
> Please take some of your own advice and re-read read read what I posted about the higher quality rockwool is already LIME FREE from pre-soaking before packaging/shipping.


 
Here you sure said that rockwool has no lime?


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

For clarification.... this is what the page says, so those reading/watching can understand what's going on.

BTW, The very top of the page is really bolded. I bolded it here not to prove my point, but to illustrate the page exactly. The colors were added by me to show reference. (hxxp://www.4hydroponics.com/grow_room/rockwool.asp)

*D**elta Gro-Blocks are cubes of stonewool (rockwool) that have a grooved base which promotes drainage to avoid root rot. Grodan stonewool is pH neutral, making it easy to maintain the ideal gardening pH value of 5.5 - 6.5. Each block is wrapped in white plastic on all sides for individual use.*

  They can be used for direct planting or "potting up" of plants started with Grodan Macroplugs or A-OK plugs. When your seedlings have a couple of small leaves and the roots emerge from your Macroplugs or A-OK plugs, soak the the Gro-Block in pH5.5 water overnight and insert the starter plugs in the holes the next day. Hold off watering for 1 to 2 days to prompt the roots to expand quickly into the Delta Gro-Block.


  Once your plants have outgrown the Gro-Blocks, simply expand the growing medium by blocking onto a Grodan Slab. No pots, no soil, no mess!

Not using hydroponics? Stonewool can be planted directly into soil, indoors or out.


  Delta Gro-Blocks provide more evenly distributed pores and a robust design, giving your plants the optimum zone for root growth throughout the entire block. Stonewool is recognized the world over as the ideal hydroponics growing substrate.



"soak the the Gro-Block in pH5.5 water overnight" ... why?

"to prompt the roots to expand quickly into the Delta Gro-Block."




			
				massproducer said:
			
		

> Here you sure said that rockwool has no lime?



Ahh, I was waiting the back track defensive manuver... 

It's LIME FREE because certain companies, pre-soak the cubes. How can a rockwool cube truely be pH neutral?? You know this one... remove the lime! How do you remove the lime??? Pre-soaking!


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

This is kinda fun... :woohoo:


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

Honestly this is going no where, you obviously do not have a lot of experience with rockwool, I am not going to argue with you over FACTS.  I have been growing using rockwool for several years,  No companies sell pre soaked rockwool.

Either way you do what ever works for you, but DON'T give advice that lead people to follow your bad habits.

ROCKWOOL HAS TO BE PRE-SOAKED, to dissolve the residual lime, end of story


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

"soak the the Gro-Block in pH5.5 water overnight" ... why?

Same as all other rockwool products...To dissolved the residual lime


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

but i do agree and never ever disagreed that once the lime has been dissolved, rockwool's PH is rather stable


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## snuggles (May 22, 2008)

We could do an experiment, I would do it but my pen needs calibration...yikes. Take a glass of water pH it to a certain number...say 5.5 and then soak a cube in it, take the pH of the water and I can almost guarantee the pH will change. When I first tried Rockwool I didn't soak very well and my pH was going nuts, long story short it was the rockwool. I could be wrong but I always took the soak as a way to condition the cubes pH, maybe I have been wrong all this time though I dunno. IMO always soak the rockwool.

I get your point of view to an extent MD, soil transplants work the same sorta. With the transplanting you want the roots to search too just like the rockwool. If I can get a screwdriver to calibrate I'll do a test for us. I always lose my darn little screwdrivers for the pH meter LOL....stoner


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

Here's how the experiment should run...

Take the rockwool cube get a pH reading of it dry if at all possible.

Soak in pH balanced water let's say pH of 7 at neutral 24hrs, check to see if pH of cube has changed.

Then on another cube, do it at say 5.5 pH and again see if it's changed after 24hrs.

I'm willing to bet the cube takes the pH of the water, thus showing that the rockwool cube simply takes the pH of the water.

However, the complications of such an experiment are the fact that it's got to be done without contamination. Also to ensure proper calibration of equipment is also a large factor as well, as mentioned above and without observer bias. To which point, can't be done by anyone really who has already read this thread. But it would be interesting to see the untampered results.


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## massproducer (May 22, 2008)

If we are going to do an experiment then you would need to check the PH of the water, not the cube as the lime is going to dissolve into the water, and I can guarentee that the water's PH will rise by atleast a whole point. 

Remember what lime is used for in soil...It is used to raise the PH of acidic soils


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## md.apothecary (May 22, 2008)

either way works... give it a shot.

Thanks!


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## Ilikebigbuds (May 22, 2008)

hey guys I have never been big on reading directions, I never have done anything to my rockwool cubes. I would pour distilled water over them until saturated and plant my beans cover the hole with a little rockwool wet some more and cover. the next day I would drain water add a little more and the next day I would drain and add more water. just plain distilled water  I have always sprouted my beans with no trouble this way. I asked the fella who sold me my cubes at  Home Harvest Garden supply Inc. if it was needed to treat these cubes and his response was "not necessary" so I never even looked at the directions on the packaging until today! 

I have starter mini blocks by grodan, and it clearly states on the front of the packing: soak briefly in a starter solution adjusted to ph 5.5 using either ph down or a lemon.
and also visit www.hydroponics101.com for more help.

huh? maybe I had no trouble because I rinsed my cubes each day.


so there's my 2 cents worth#$ LOL:hairpull:


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## Aurora_Indicas_Dad (May 22, 2008)

lol,it didnt mean to get anybody arguing.i guess both of you have your own ways.i will be soaking mine though due to the fact i dont have the type of rockwool md is talking about.and no offence but since i stated that i was using gh plugs and hugo cubes (not the ones your talkin about) that would mean that i in fact would have to soak them so all in all,it kinda was false info.but i'm not mad at ya.thats why its good to have such a large # of people on a forum.if i would have said,im using delta grow blocks,then you would have been giving legit info.Either way its all good though man.i apreciate both of you for lending your knowledge and i thank mass for clearin that up.- Peace


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## Ilikebigbuds (May 22, 2008)

this has happened to me here too! LOL  :hairpull: 


:48: 

I have read that there are disadvatages to using those large blocks, they get heavy and hard to move when your plants get huge, and disposal after your grow is another issue to consider. 

I use small cubes and bury in hydrotron.

does this help? sorry if maybe your question was misunderstood.  :ciao:


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## Aurora_Indicas_Dad (May 23, 2008)

i'm thinking about filling the pots with hydroton (around and top of my rockwool cube) or i was just gonna fill up all the unused space in the pot with shredded absorbant rockwool.i havent made up my mind yet.i'm sure it'll be fine using either method.


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## Aurora_Indicas_Dad (May 23, 2008)

i will make sure i soak all the shredded rockwool in water with a ph of 5.5 the night b-4 i add it to the pots =)


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## Ilikebigbuds (May 23, 2008)

just know when your rockwool is wet with water + Nuits and then light hits it algee will form so cover it up. 

have a great grow!


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## md.apothecary (May 23, 2008)

Aurora_Indicas_Dad said:
			
		

> lol,it didnt mean to get anybody arguing.i guess both of you have your own ways.i will be soaking mine though due to the fact i dont have the type of rockwool md is talking about.and no offence but since i stated that i was using gh plugs and hugo cubes (not the ones your talkin about) that would mean that i in fact would have to soak them so all in all,it kinda was false info.but i'm not mad at ya.thats why its good to have such a large # of people on a forum.if i would have said,im using delta grow blocks,then you would have been giving legit info.Either way its all good though man.i apreciate both of you for lending your knowledge and i thank mass for clearin that up.- Peace



Technically it's not wrong info, it depends on HOW you read/interpret what it said. If you'll notice my interpretation is clearly stated above. However, I am letting it go. To each his own. 

I'll be the first, and not the last (obviously) to tell you it's not necessary to do so, as people, myself included don't soak prior to placing seeds inside. My two week (9 day old) plants are proof enough for me to know it doesn't make a bit of difference.







This debate reminds me of those topics where everyone tries to push you into a 400w lamp when it might simply be overkill for your needs, but they believe it's the end all be all of necessary ways of growing. However, we have both failed to mention (well until now), any advice you get on here is NOT garunteed to work by any means. Your choices can be influenced one way or another, however, there are 1000's of variables you will do in your quest to grow that will change everything about your grow. You could soak your cubes with the improper solution and end up with a disaster and think that soaking is not the way to do it, but it was a simple mistake and vice versa. So in the end, take it for face value, and know that NO ONE IS EVER 100% RIGHT.


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## Aurora_Indicas_Dad (May 23, 2008)

i totally agree man.your plants look beautiful and your right,obviously it doesnt matter if you do or dont.i guess people just do it  to make sure the rockwool is at the right ph.either way,thanx for the help-peace


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## md.apothecary (May 25, 2008)

Good luck with it, and enjoy the experience. If this is your very first grow, it's definitely going to throw some curves along the way. Stick with it, and you'll find your niche for sure! It's a super easy plant to grow... it's a weed!


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## G_48911 (May 25, 2008)

oh i've grew many times b-4(in soil)this is just my first grow with a hydroponic system. i'm sure i'll have some bumps along the way but it help alot to have this forum for reference,and i also have my friend to help me. i bought the system from him.he said the one thing he cant stress enough is having a good ph/ec meter.he says thats a very important tool when growing hydroponically. I should be good though.hell,i better be good,i've been doing nothing but filling my mind up with knowledge for 4 months,literally everyday..80-90% of my spare time


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## pothead (May 25, 2008)

If you're a beginner hydroponic gardener, then the by far best system to use is Water Farm. It includes everything you need. I also heard that starting the seeds in rockwool is NOT recommended. I would start the plants in soil and as soon as the plant grows 4 or 6 leafs, I would pull it from the soil and place it into the water farm. Just my 2 cent...


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## Aurora_Indicas_Dad (May 25, 2008)

oh no,i'm not startin em out in the cube.i will germinate the seeds,then i'll use the hydroponic plugs until the roots start  coming out,then ill put the plug into the cube. i.m.o.you dont wanna start in soil,then go through all the b.s. to get the plant into rockwool.what it is that you dont do,is try starting out in rockwool without first germinating your seeds.as for the water farm,does that system hold 40 plants?i paid $100 for my system and i even got 1 of my 2 400 watt lights(with ballast) i got a killer deal on it.the guys at my hydroponic shop praise the system.but anyways,who knows..time will tell.thanks for checkin out the ol thread


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## NorCalHal (May 26, 2008)

My 2cents on rockwool.

I have been using rockwool only (cloning in 1x1, transfering to 4x4 and then transplanting to 2 gal pots of shredded rockwool) for over 6 years.

I used to "condition" my rockwool when I first started. Then I stopped. I saw NO difference whatsoever. The rockwool conditioner at the growstore is another highpriced  additive that ultimatly raises your ppm's rather then "conditions" your rockwool, imho.

I do stick with Grodan. I have tried cheaper wool only to have issues. With grodan, I have never had any medium issues or PH flucuations.
I lost 100's of clones using cheaper rockwool. They seemed to have a hard time rooting thru it. Once I went back to Grodan, no issues at all and my success rate is 95%.

One thing I have changed recently was when I make my 2 gal pots of rockwool, I use half absorbant and half non-absorbant. This has made a noticable differance.


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## md.apothecary (May 26, 2008)

You know, this thread has also reminded me that people cry, whine, and complain, and also suggest not using jiffy peat pellets. I've had nothing but great things to say about those for starting seeds/plants. I've actually just had 21 of 25 bag seeds sprout and roots out of the bottom already, which were just given away as gifts and transplanted directly into a DWC system as well. 

Again, another thing people say not to mix any kind of soil with hydropoincs, like a peat pellet into your hydro, but it works great for me. 

GroDan is IMO one of the best companies, there is one other that I've had great success with as well, just stopped purchasing them because a brick of like 10 2" blocks was almost $20 online.


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## massproducer (May 27, 2008)

"Again, another thing people say not to mix any kind of soil with hydropoincs, like a peat pellet into your hydro, but it works great for me."

Peat moss and soil are totally different things.


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## choking_victim (May 27, 2008)

I've used peat pellets for a starter then transplanted into larger rockwool blocks as well, and worked fine.
 so there should be no problem.
 When I used Grodan for the first time using hydro, I never pre-soaked the rockwool once, and still worked fine.
  The only thing I could think of being a possible problem is just the strain your growing.


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