# Oops Need Seeds



## Vegs (Aug 27, 2008)

I know someone who has Blueberry and Banana Kush and was hoping to get a male from each breed to 'pop' in order to pollinate each to get some seeds. Well, it seems lady luck has stricken my friend and he has all females. Imagine that...

How can you force healthy females to produce viable seeds?

I believe the plan was to get a stock of each aforementioned variety and then cross pollinate the two later on down the road for 'shiggles'.

They are at 39 days with 3 of those days being switched to 12/12. Help!!! My friend needs seeds more then buds.


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## SirSmoke-a-Lot (Aug 28, 2008)

No... u'll hermie them and then they will always stay hermies... don't do that


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## Melissa (Aug 28, 2008)

*you will need a male to make healthy seeds ,,,
hermie seeds will just be a waste of time imo :48:*


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## bombbudpuffa (Aug 28, 2008)

_Creating feminized seeds is an art, there are a few different methods of application. I have written about some of my different methods of making seeds in previous HIGH TIMES articles. I have use gibberellic acid, light stress, ph stress, and fertilizer stress to force my plants to make seeds. All these methods are harsh on the plants, and some like the gibbrellic acid, are not organic. In my search for cleaner more earth-friendly ways of working with the cannabis plant, I have found a new way to make feminized seeds.
_
  Article by Soma
   	Feminized seeds occur as a result of stress, other than genetics. All cannabis plants can and will make male flowers under stress. Certain strains like a higher PH, some like a lower one. Some like a lot of food, some like a lot less. There is quite a lot of variety in marijuana genetics, and you can&#65533;t treat every plant the same way.
   	It takes many harvests before you really get to know a particular strain. Just like getting to know human friends, it takes time. I have grown strains for a decade and am truly getting to know every nuance the different plants exhibit. I can recognize them from a distance. I must say that I get a lot of help from my friends, both in making seeds and learning new and better ways of working with this sacred plant.
   	I named this new method &#65533;Rodelization&#65533; after a friend who helped me realize and make use of this way of creating female seeds. After growing crop after crop of the same plant in the same conditions, I noticed that if I flowered the plants 10-14 days longer than usual, they would develop male &#65533;bananas&#65533;. A male banana is a very slight male flower on a female marijuana plant that is formed because of stress. Usually they do not let out any pollen early enough to make seeds, but they sometimes do. They are a built in safety factor so in case of sever conditions, the plant can make sure that the species is furthered.
   	To me a male banana is quite a beautiful thing. It has the potential of making all female seeds. Many growers out there have male banana phobia. They see one and have heart palpitations, they want to cut down the entire crop or at least take tweezers and pluck the little yellow emerging devices out. I call them &#65533;Emergency Devices&#65533; because they emerge at times of stress.
   	In the Rodelization method, the male banana is very valuable. After growing your female plant 10-14 days longer than usual, hang them up to dry, then carefully take them off the drying lines and inspect for bananas. Each and every banana should be removed and placed in a small bag labeled very accurately. These sealed bags can be placed in the fridge for one to two months and still remain potent.
   	For the second phase you need to already have a crop that&#65533;s already 2 &#65533; weeks into flowering. Take your sealed bag of pollen out of the fridge, and proceed to impregnate your new crop of females. To do this, you must first match the female plant and the pollen from the same strain in the previous crop. Shut down all the fans in the grow room. Then take a very fine paint brush, dip it in the bag of pollen, and paint it on the female flower. Do this to each different strain you have growing together. I have done it with ten different kinds in the same room with great success.
   	I use the lower flowers to make seeds, leaving the top colas seedless for smoking. This method takes time(two crops), but is completely organic and lets you have great quality smoke at the same time you make your female seeds. If you&#65533;re one of those growers that has never grown seeds for fear of not having something good to smoke, you will love this method.
   	You can also use this pollen to make new female crosses by cross pollinating. The older females with the bananas can be brought into the room with the younger, un-pollinated females when they are three weeks into flowering. Turn all of the circulation fans on high, and the little bits of pollen will proceed to make it around the room. Do this for several days. Six to seven weeks later you will have ripe 100% female seeds; not nearly as many as a male plant would make, but enough to start over somewhere else with the same genetics.
   	As a farmer who has been forced to move his genetics far away from where they started, I know very well the value of seeds. My friend Adam from THSeeds in Amsterdam has a motto that I love to borrow these days: &#65533;Drop seeds not bombs&#65533;.




Heres one method


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## bombbudpuffa (Aug 28, 2008)

During the 1960's and 1970's some cannabis breeders took to experimenting with Colchicine.  Colchicine, a powerful mutagen for both man and beast, stops cell duplication, while the cellcore duplication continues the same.  The end result is a doubling or more of the chromosome set.  This treatment can be beneficial to cannabis because it enforces many properties such as higher production of thc and resistance to disease.  What also resulted, when gender chromosomes doubled, is that male or female chromosomes appear manifold, called Hermaphrodites.  What's the plant to become?  It becomes all at once.  The result is called feminized or effeminate seed.
Genetically, a cannabis plant is more or less predisposed to become male or female.  This is regulated by 2 chromosomes everyone knows as the X and Y chromosomes.  A plant with 2 XX chromosomes becomes female.  A plant with an X and Y turns into a male.  Plants have hormones that regulate it's functioning, of which gender is one of those functions.  The hormone balance is genetically determined, and partly influenced by environmental factors.  An example is when plant roots get damaged.  The roots will produce a substance that in turn slows down leaf growth.  The result is male flowers.  When discussing hormone balance you get FEMALE SEED: a female is a plant with XX or only female chromosomes.
When you have a seed with just X chromosomes, you are certain this seed will grow into a plant that is genetically female.  To achieve the XX only plant: a female plant is forced by a hormone called Gibberellic Acid  to produce male flowers, the pollen created contains only X chromosomes, when you offer this pollen to another female plant you can be absolutely certain to get seeds which are 100% XX.  Once again this seed is called FEMALE SEED.  Gibberellic Acid can be found in online.  It takes years for an individual to achieve the proper plant hormone manipulation to get 100% female XX seed.  Supplies therefore fluctuate and there are many different strains available worldwide.



Heres another method


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## bombbudpuffa (Aug 28, 2008)

The following is a safe, inexpensive, and successful method for reversing the sex of female cannabis plants. Individual plant responses may vary based upon strain, but I can verify that this process is fully effective in stimulating profuse staminate flower production. 

This process can be used to:

A: create new feminized seeds from solitary prize mothers that you currently have
B: create interesting feminized-seed hybrids from different prize strains that you currently have
C: create feminized seeds for optimum outdoor use
D: accelerate the "interview" phase of cultivation, in searching for interesting new clone-mothers 
E: reduce total plant numbers- great for medical users with severe plant number restrictions
F: increase variety, by helping to create stable feminized seedlines to be used as an alternative to clones

At the bottom of this post are some specific details about the chemicals used, their safety, their cost, and where to get them. 

It is important to educate yourself about cannabis breeding theory and technique prior to using a method like this one. Here is a link to Robert Clarke's "Marijuana Botany", which is a very good reference. 

"Marijuana Botany" by Robert Connell Clarke
(unfortunately missing the appendices)
http://www.geocities.com/hempgenes/Botany.html

It is also important to use basic safety precautions when mixing and handling these chemicals, so read the safety data links provided. The risk is similar to mixing and handling chemical fertilizers, and similar handling procedures are sufficient.

Remember: nothing will ever replace good genetics, and some of your bounty should always go back towards the professional cannabis breeders out there... the ones who have worked for many generations to come up with their true-breeding F1 masterpieces. Support professional breeders by buying their seeds. Also, order from Heaven's Stairway. Not that they need a plug from me, but they are very professional and provide very fast service worldwide.

First, a stock solution is made. It consists of two parts (A and B) that are initially mixed separately, then blended together. Part A is ALWAYS mixed into part B while stirring rapidly. Use distilled water; tap water may cause precipitates to form.

Wear gloves while mixing and using these chemicals, and mix and use in a properly ventilated area. A mask will prevent the breathing of any dust, which is caustic. STS is colorless and odorless, and poses minimal health risks if used as described here. (See material safety data sheet links below). Note that silver nitrate and STS can cause brown stains upon drying, so spray over newspaper and avoid spilling.

Part A: .5 gram silver nitrate stirred into 500ml distilled water
Part B: 2.5 grams sodium thiosulfate (anhydrous) stirred into 500ml distilled water

The silver nitrate dissolves within 15 seconds. The sodium thiosulfate takes 30-45 seconds to dissolve.

The silver nitrate solution (A) is then mixed into the sodium thiosulfate solution (B) while stirring rapidly. The resulting blend is stock silver thiosulfate solution (STS).

This stock solution is then diluted at a ratio of 1:9 to make a working solution. For example, 100ml of stock STS is added to 900ml of distilled water. This is then sprayed on select female plants.

Both the stock STS and the working solution should be refrigerated after use, as well as the powdered chemicals, to avoid activity loss. Excess working solution can be safely poured down the drain after use (with ample running water) with negligible environmental impact. It's pretty cheap.

Each liter of stock STS will make ten 1-liter batches of working solution of STS. With the minimum amount of base chemicals ordered from Photographer's Formulary (see link below), this means that each 1-liter bottle of working solution STS costs less than 9 cents, and can treat 15-20 mid-sized plants. That's 200 1-liter batches of STS for $18. Note that the distilled water costs far more than the chemicals.
The STS working solution is sprayed on select female plants until runoff. Do the spraying over newspaper in a separate area from the flower room. You probably won't smell anything, but ventilate anyway. You now have what I call a "F>M plant"; a female plant that will produce male flowers.

After the F>M plant dries move it into 12/12 immediately. This is usually done three to four weeks prior to the date that the target (to be pollinated) plants will be ready to pollinate. Response times may vary slightly depending upon the strain. More specific times can be determined by trial with your own individual strains. In my trials it took 26 days for the first pollen. 30-35 days seems optimum for planning purposes.

So, assuming that a target plant needs 3-4 weeks to produce fully mature seeds, a strain that takes 8 weeks to mature should be moved into flower at about the same time as the female>male plant. A target plant that finishes flowering in 6 weeks needs to be moved into flower later (10 days or so) so that it doesn't finish before the seeds can fully mature.

A seeded individual branch can be left to mature on a plant for a bit longer, while harvesting the other seedless buds if they finish first. Just leave enough leaves on for the plant for it to stay healthy.

Effects:

Within days I noticed a yellowing of the leaves on the F>M plants. This effect persisted for two weeks or so; after this they became green again, except for a few of the larger fans. The plants otherwise seemed healthy. No burning was observed. Growth stopped dead for the first ten days, and then resumed slowly. No stretch was ever seen. After two weeks the F>M plants were obviously forming male flower clusters. Not just a few clusters of balls, but complete male flower tops. One plant still formed some pistillate flowers, but overall it was predominantly male.

It is strange indeed to see an old girlfriend that you know like the back of your hand go through a sex change. I'll admit that things were awkward between us at first. 

When the F>M plants look like they may soon open and release pollen, ( 3-1/2 to 4 weeks) move them from the main flower room into another unventilated room or closet with lighting on a 12/12 timer. Don't worry too much about watts per square foot; it will only be temporary. 

When the pollen flies, move your target plants into the closet and pollinate. 

A more controlled approach is to isolate the F>M plants in a third remote closet (no light is necessary in this one, as they are releasing pollen now and are nearly finished anyway). In this remote other closet the pollen is very carefully collected in a plastic produce bag or newspaper sleeve and then brought back to the lighted closet, where the target plants are now located. If this is done, be careful to not mix pollen types by letting the F>Ms dust each other. Avoid movement, or use yet another closet. 

Take special care to not let pollen gather on the outside of this bag- a static charge is sometimes present. Drop small open clusters of blooms inside and then close the bag at the mouth and shake. Important: next, step outside and slowly release the excess air from the bag, collapsing it completely, so that pollen doesn't get released accidently. Point downwind; don't let it get on your hands or clothes.

This collapsed pollinated bag is now very carefully slipped over only one branch and is then tied off tightly at the mouth around the branch stem with a twist tie or tape, sealing the pollen inside. Let the bag inflate slightly with air again before sealing it off, so the branch can breathe. This technique keeps the entire plant from seeding. Agitate the bag a bit after tying it off to distribute the pollen. Don't forget to label the branch so you know which seeds are which. Other branches on this same plant can be hit with different pollen sources.

If no lighted closet is available, the plant can be moved back into the main room, but- be very careful: pollen is sneaky. After 4-5 days, the bag is gently removed and the plant completes it's flowering cycle. 

Yet another method has worked well for me. I position the target plants in a non-ventilated lighted closet, and then I collect pollen on a piece of mirror or glass. This is then carefully applied to the pistils of one pre-labeled branch by using a very fine watercolor paintbrush. Care is taken to not agitate the branch or the pollen. No sneezing. The plant needs to be in place first; moving it after pollination can shake pollen free and blow this technique. 

Regardless of technique, at completion you will have feminized seeds. Let them dry for 2-4 weeks.

Another method


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## Hick (Aug 28, 2008)

> 'Rodelisation' is a joke,and femmd seeds generally SUCK.
> 
> Just my .02


 hxxp://www.reefermanseeds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3009&page=2


> reference all you want, silver nitrate is indeed the best way to create seeds in a synthetic fashion, but if males are present the preferred method is standard seed stock. that is, a natural male and female. the silver process is extremely complex. not something your average joe is going to pull off in his backyard.
> 
> 
> now, for some real life experience, this is the deal:
> ...


   hxxp://forums.mycotopia.net/grassroots/17006-hermi-self-seeding.html



> The production of stabilised feminised seeds STARTS before the use of stress, Gibberelins, Rodelization or whatever - it's wholly and totally dependant on the correct selection of the female plant to stress into producing male flowers.
> 
> This is the problem with the general understanding or mis-understanding of the production of feminised seeds - it isn't the process of actual pollination - it's the selection of the host parent stock to produce them from.
> 
> ...


  hxxp://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9641-how-make-femonized-seeds-8.html



> "Soma's Rodelization method" is herited by experience on hermies controls.
> 
> Soma was inspired and hijacked the concept for make "rodelization". This method need a perfect knownledge off primal matter, and a good skill in hermies control breeding/selection for tend to "hormonal" feminized result, i think it with my level on this and only experimental tests.


 hxxp://www.cannameet.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=5955

IMO...selfing and femminizing should be attempted only by seasoned experts, with a full understanding of genetics and 'breeding'..
*Soma says it himself*


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## bombbudpuffa (Aug 28, 2008)

> Soma says it himself


Of course. Why would a breeder want anyone making their own fem seeds?


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## Hick (Aug 28, 2008)

maybe because "they" realize the risk and damage inherent to polluting the pool with hermies.."especially" by closet seed makers.


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## bombbudpuffa (Aug 28, 2008)

Or maybe they realize if everyone made their own it would cut into profits.


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## Hick (Aug 28, 2008)

It isn't _only_ breeders that agree with that philosophy. 
I'm not a breeder, and I agree 100%.. 
   If you read those links above you will see that from others too. 
  "I" am saying this. I've been growing in ecxess of 25 years now. And over the last few years,(5 or so) have seen a huge increase in the hermie population. Even from the seedbanks. That leads me to believe someone is, somewhere, some how, promoting it through 'selection'. 
  Why not look to the rather obvious?..  In the 80's, I grew nothing but bagseed, and never recall a single hermie. Selective memory?? maybe..


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## Vegs (Aug 28, 2008)

I really appreciate everyone's input. Especially all the technical litterature...love it.

There is one option my friend has, which is one I know he is not a fan of. He has the pollen from a male of some sativa dirt herb he practiced one the easy methods found on the site here. He understands the concept of pollinating the lower branches etc However, his concern is introducing the pollen from an early blooming male, which came from less desirable sativa strain, into both breeds just to get some seeds out of the deal is not worth it. 

Is it a safe bet to assume that the traits of this oaxin (sp) sativa will dominate the traits of Blueberry and Banana Kush so much that it will turn those two breeds into strains not worth growing indoors? I know "worth" is subjective, but you know what I mean.


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## Hick (Aug 29, 2008)

"IME".. with first generation cross's(f1 hybrids) they 'usually' express a near 50/50 combination of both parents, without a 'lot' a variation of phenotypes.
  It will be the following generation(f2) that will/can express a plethora of pheno's. 
THIS is where "knowing" your strain, your goals, and _"selection"_ begin to come into play...


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## mistisrising (Aug 29, 2008)

Hick said:
			
		

> It isn't _only_ breeders that agree with that philosophy.
> I'm not a breeder, and I agree 100%..
> If you read those links above you will see that from others too.
> "I" am saying this. I've been growing in ecxess of 25 years now. And over the last few years,(5 or so) have seen a huge increase in the hermie population. Even from the seedbanks. That leads me to believe someone is, somewhere, some how, promoting it through 'selection'.
> Why not look to the rather obvious?..  In the 80's, I grew nothing but bagseed, and never recall a single hermie. Selective memory?? maybe..



I agree with this. I grew bag seed exclusively from '94 to '02. And, in that time I saw only one hermie from any of those crops. Since our canadian excursion in 2002, we've had at least ten hermies between a friend and I. From "heady" strains, no less.


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