# leds to add to hps worth it?



## captnkush (Mar 23, 2011)

i have a 400watt hps that i love already running on some autoflowers but i plan to scale up a bit and grow fewer plants but larger. anyway i want to add light to the lower side branches as i fear will be shadowed by a tall plant and because i have a narrow closet i've been looking at sunshine systems ledgp45 and or ledgp14. i've been leaning towards these b/c it will mount well and i won't have to worry about the plants touching the leds b/c should be cool to the touch and looks like they would have great cover in my space but are the lights worth buying or not.

sorry a lot of nonsense in there but im stoned and curious, thanks


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

no at all. a complete waste of money for lumen/watt ($)


there is still no greater technology then HPS for light output


----------



## babysnakess (Mar 23, 2011)

Stoneybud seems to think these leds are worth the money, at least to veg with anyway. I'm thinking about buying some, maybe we can get some input from him.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

He's already answered this in the other thread where I asked this same question, his answer was he didn't know. I personally am not one to dismiss these yet and ask if OG has used these or what are you basing this opinion on?

The question posed is not about main lighting, but about additional or body lighting. I am doing this right now with a 400w HPS, but also wonder about the LED since I have seen some report being comparable to the 400w I am currently using. IF I can get another light giving off comparable benefits AND it costs me less both in unit price and cst to run (elec), I am interested!

I doubt the light would be enough to use as main lighting.


----------



## 4u2sm0ke (Mar 23, 2011)

Yes the question is "additional" Lighting..and I too am looking at the LED for side light..as the heat is not there...just my thaughts


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Mar 23, 2011)

Your plants literally have to be within a couple of inches from LEDs to do much good...I really think their use as supplemental lighting to HPS would be very limited.  And regardless of the sales hype, there is no way a lower watt LED is as effective as a 400W HPS.


----------



## AluminumMonster (Mar 23, 2011)

You should check out some of JAAM's grows.... He uses LED's,HPS,and fluro's. No matter what you decide, more lumens =more lumens, and if temps are a concern then i would give it a try.  JMO. A.M.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Your plants literally have to be within a couple of inches from LEDs to do much good...I really think their use as supplemental lighting to HPS would be very limited.  And regardless of the sales hype, there is no way a lower watt LED is as effective as a 400W HPS.



My understanding is that you HAVE to have the light at least 14" or so from the plants (not sure the exact distance range), are you thinking CFL? This is what I read and was told when looking at the light, I've heard this a few times now. Hype aside, I am interested in the truth here, has anyone used these new LED's and has direct knowledge of their ability (or lack thereof)?


----------



## babysnakess (Mar 23, 2011)

From what I have read leds will make your bud stronger, this was in high times.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

That very well could be hype, would need to prove this myself before I'd believe it.


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

Physics and math will tell us otherwise. Guys THIS IS PROVEN.

DO YOU WANT EASE OF INSTALL? ARE YOU LOOKING FOR ANYTHING TO ADD BUT DONT CARE HOW MUCH LIGHT YOUR ADDING? DO YOU TRUST BLINDLY WHAT SOMEONE TELLS YOU ABOUT THE PRODUCT? ARE YOU LOOKING FOR GROW BLING?

CAUSE IF SO THEN COMMERCIAL LIGHTING IS NOT FOR YOU.


High intensity lighty are just that, HIGH INTENSITY.


I know people use Low Intensity, and that is ok. They will not harm the plant, they just will not help it as well as other lights. 

Some of your money will be wasted every month on energy costs, and your buds will not be as big as they could be.


But that is ok for some. Some people want to be different, so i say go for it.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Mar 23, 2011)

AluminumMonster said:
			
		

> You should check out some of JAAM's grows.... He uses LED's,HPS,and fluro's. No matter what you decide, more lumens =more lumens, and if temps are a concern then i would give it a try. JMO. A.M.


 
I started with strictly all LEDs when i began growing...   I used 12watt all blue panels for veg and had 2 90 watt UFOs in a 2x4' tent for flowering...   I quickly added a T5 into the flowering tent, then another...  I had great end product for being my first grow but just not alot of it...  

I soon got another tent 4x4' and started with a 600whps in there...  It has since been bumped up to a 1000whps...

All of the LEDs that are working still(a few of the cheap 12watt panels have pooped the bed) are now being used along with several T5's in my veg area for autos, moms, babies & clones...   

If i decided to start with T5s & a 600whps instead of LEDs my seed collection prob would be double the size...  :doh:


----------



## nouvellechef (Mar 23, 2011)

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> I started with strictly all LEDs when i began growing...   I used 12watt all blue panels for veg and had 2 90 watt UFOs in a 2x4' tent for flowering...   I quickly added a T5 into the flowering tent, then another...  I had great end product for being my first grow but just not alot of it...
> 
> I soon got another tent 4x4' and started with a 600whps in there...  It has since been bumped up to a 1000whps...
> 
> ...



Thats a hidden brag post. JAAM got mega diff lighting. Such baller status.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Mar 23, 2011)

IDK bout braggin... I was just trying to point out how much $ i have wasted on lights...   and i 100% agree i have too many lights...  but have 1 more T5 to hang...  LOL


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

OGKushman said:
			
		

> Physics and math will tell us otherwise. Guys THIS IS PROVEN.
> 
> DO YOU WANT EASE OF INSTALL? ARE YOU LOOKING FOR ANYTHING TO ADD BUT DONT CARE HOW MUCH LIGHT YOUR ADDING? DO YOU TRUST BLINDLY WHAT SOMEONE TELLS YOU ABOUT THE PRODUCT? ARE YOU LOOKING FOR GROW BLING?
> 
> ...



No need to shout, and you don't need to talk down to us I don't think that's at all needed, but can you show me this proof you speak of? Do you have side by side tests showing this? That's all I ask.


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

Nobody is shouting and no one is talking down. When someone begs a question that has been answered many times over, because the person may not like the answer, well that seems like not liking the answer you get from dad and then running to mom for something different. 


250$ for a cheap 1000watt HPS system.

Thats bulb, ballast, hood, cord, socket


There is no better system dollar per dollar. And I have no useless lights just sitting around.  


Im sorry but call alwayshydro in Riverside Ca and ask the owner, who is using them currently to grow veggies in his store. Or visit DHs storre in Riverside and see a simialr setup. 

They do not work well without other lighting. SO why add them in the first place? I never had to purchase a LED and I have no reason to. If you purchase an LED then have a reason to get HID...well your throwing your money away.

And that is the truth of it.



Good luck guys


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

Oh the CAPS.

I was just making a "booming voice" like a commercial or something


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

Regardless if you have an application for these or not, I am betting others DO, my friend, and some of us here are trying to decide if we are of those that do. This is new and developing tech, I don't think you can judge these new lights against lights that came out even a few months or so ago...just like the computer, new tech advances fast.


----------



## Locked (Mar 23, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> No need to shout, and you don't need to talk down to us I don't think that's at all needed, but can you show me this proof you speak of? Do you have side by side tests showing this? That's all I ask.




Pretty sure OGK was spoofing a LED ad....I sure as helll didn't take it as shouting or talking down.
LEDs are not there yet...maybe someday.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

I posted before and I'll post again, a guy in town has bought several of these and is in the process of doing a side by side test...we will know more soon and it'll all be on time lapse. Maybe it is here, maybe it isn't...that's yet to be told and how will we know until we test? This is why I asked has anyone tried these personally? Or can you direct me to written summations from someone who has. You guys are both telling me it's not there, but how do you know?

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just want to know, hear it from someone who has tried.

And to the OP, I am sorry if I hijacked this thread from your intent, I am thinking you'd like to know too, though?


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

Let me put it another way....if one of you came and asked the same question and I jumped in and said no and that's final....would you be OK with that and not ask how that info is known?


----------



## nouvellechef (Mar 23, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> I posted before and I'll post again, a guy in town has bought several of these and is in the process of doing a side by side test...we will know more soon and it'll all be on time lapse. Maybe it is here, maybe it isn't...that's yet to be told and how will we know until we test? This is why I asked has anyone tried these personally? Or can you direct me to written summations from someone who has. You guys are both telling me it's not there, but how do you know?
> 
> I'm not trying to be a jerk here, I just want to know, hear it from someone who has tried.
> 
> And to the OP, I am sorry if I hijacked this thread from your intent, I am thinking you'd like to know too, though?



I haven't tried cause they will, at least not yet, come close to a HID. Believe me, I have seen many try and in person myself, not even close. I got the coin to drop if they were dominant. But alas, HID for the win.


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

If its proven, and published. Yes I would believe you. ( i would probably ask for results too)but, I am not going to go looking for results again on google again. 





			
				Roddy said:
			
		

> Regardless if you have an application for these or not, I am betting others DO, my friend, and some of us here are trying to decide if we are of those that do. This is new and developing tech, I don't think you can judge these new lights against lights that came out even a few months or so ago...just like the computer, new tech advances fast.


LEDs do not have computers in them 

It is in no way a new technology (Holonyak, 1962). It has not improved much since its introduction. 

If you want results in your hand so you can see proof, then I am sorry you need to do some testing or googling.

I am a scientist at heart and I am not going to spoon feed you your science. Nor am i going to waste my money or time to repeat concluded results. 

Buy a LED, Buy a Lux Meter and let us know what you find. I for sure am not going to waste my money as I trust proven published results. Im sure your results will show the same.


No anger here. Just slight frustration of having to answer this question every few months


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

I'll take that answer as a "NO" then? You have nothing to back your opinion save your opinion?

You keep coming back to the HID, this isn't a question of which light was dominant. I think the OP as well as I have stated we have HID's...


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

LoL Im sure youll find just what your looking for on google.

Get some LEDs.

Buy this:
hXXp://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-MW700-Portable-Light-Intensity/dp/B004CZ6ZAS


Report back so we can compare results. But ill bet your going to find the same results.


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

What we are saying is there is BETTER options for supplemental lighting.

Yes, LEDs will grow a plant. But is that also the queston? No.

Im sure most people want to know what will grow plants the biggest, healthiest, and fastest. This means the most amount of lumens per square foot (HID) and the least amount of watt drawn per heat unit added (HID).



So what is the question. Sorry if im stuck on efficiency and output...that is afterall what you are striving for, right?


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Mar 23, 2011)

Roddy  listen the bottom line is yes you can grow great herb with LEDs...  Its far from the cheapest & most efficient way to light a large space...  

IMO you would need $1000+ in LED lighting to have adquate lighting in a 4x4' tent/space...  I would almost guarantee the plants grown under the LEDs would have better tric coverage...

or like others have said previously:  spend $300-$350 on a 1000 with nice hood to blast even a 5x5' area & have bud thats actually very dense & will proably be double the amount of final product....   

It basically comes down to:  How much herb do you smoke?


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

Personally, I want to add lighting to the side of my plants without adding another 400w to my elec bill, or heat to my room. The plants don't "NEED" the extra light, but it would be beneficial IF it wasn't costly to buy and operate. Sure, I could buy a 400w, slide it down in between the plants, be extra careful when moving them around (I have to now with my existing 400w vert set-up), up the air conditioner to cover the added heat...I'm looking at my options. 

Not sure how I can do such a comparison.....


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

captnkush said:
			
		

> i have a 400watt hps that i love already running on some autoflowers but i plan to scale up a bit and grow fewer plants but larger. anyway i want to add light to the lower side branches as i fear will be shadowed by a tall plant and because i have a narrow closet i've been looking at sunshine systems ledgp45 and or ledgp14. i've been leaning towards these b/c it will mount well and i won't have to worry about the plants touching the leds b/c should be cool to the touch and looks like they would have great cover in my space but are the lights worth buying or not.
> 
> sorry a lot of nonsense in there but im stoned and curious, thanks



OP's question is similar, but not sure if heat is an issue or not...sounds like room is?


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> Roddy  listen the bottom line is yes you can grow great herb with LEDs...  Its far from the cheapest & most efficient way to light a large space...
> 
> IMO you would need $1000+ in LED lighting to have adquate lighting in a 4x4' tent/space...  I would almost guarantee the plants grown under the LEDs would have better tric coverage...
> 
> ...



I think you're the man they said has experience, COOL!! As stated, already have the main lighting, would I benefit from adding this light, or is this a total waste? Are there pluses to using a magenta budding LED as supplemental lighting? Keeping in mind I already have adequate lighting in place.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Mar 23, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> I think you're the man they said has experience, COOL!! As stated, already have the main lighting, would I benefit from adding this light, or is this a total waste? Are there pluses to using a magenta budding LED as supplemental lighting? Keeping in mind I already have adequate lighting in place.


 
It all depends on how big your space is...   If you have a large space I think your best bet would be to add a mh for extra blue...  

iF you have a small space with nothing stronger then a 400w hps then i could see a ufo makin alil difference.... _but def not the low watt panels_...  IMO they are only good for seedlings or clones while tiny...  and i dont think worth the $...   stay away from LEDwholesalers on Ebay...


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

I am using a 400w MH along with a 100w HPS overhead and a 400w HPS vert-style. The LED I am looking at is about the size of a can of beans, not sure the name or maker though. Room is around a 5'x6'.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Mar 23, 2011)

If you got 900watts already goin in that space youd need a real serious LED unit to get any sort of noticable improvement IMO...  If you want to spend the $ Id up the 100w to a 400w hps then you'll have a major increase in lumens & should be spot on for your space...   I think you may be alil underlit ATM...


----------



## Locked (Mar 23, 2011)

I wld be more apt to add HO T5 panels down the sides then waste the money on those lil LEDs....you need to spend some serious coin at the moment to get an LED that is not a waste IMO. Seems LEDS have very lil "throw" especially those cheap lil crappy LED panels. JUST my Opinion....


----------



## nouvellechef (Mar 23, 2011)

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> If you got 900watts already goin in that space youd need a real serious LED unit to get any sort of noticable improvement IMO...  If you want to spend the $ Id up the 100w to a 400w hps then you'll have a major increase in lumens & should be spot on for your space...   I think you may be alil underlit ATM...



Think he meant 1000, not 100. Plenty of light for personal grow...........


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> I wld be more apt to add HO T5 panels down the sides then waste the money on those lil LEDs....you need to spend some serious coin at the moment to get an LED that is not a waste IMO. Seems LEDS have very lil "throw" especially those cheap lil crappy LED panels. JUST my Opinion....



Again, we're not talking any "crappy" panels, the light I am talking is the size and shape of a can of beans and throws plenty of light. In fact, the instructions state the light must be "X" amount of distance away (I said 14" before to give a roundabout number) from the plants in order to be of good, sounds like it throws light a good distance. On the other hand, everyone here has said that the T5's will only light inches from the light. The light I am looking at is comparable in cost to a 6 bulb T5.

I'll check out the name next time in the shop, memory is screwed at the moment.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> Think he meant 1000, not 100. Plenty of light for personal grow...........



Yes, sorry! It's a 1000w, I am running a total of 1800w right now.


----------



## Locked (Mar 23, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Again, we're not talking any "crappy" panels, the light I am talking is the size and shape of a can of beans and throws plenty of light. In fact, the instructions state the light must be "X" amount of distance away (I said 14" before to give a roundabout number) from the plants in order to be of good, sounds like it throws light a good distance. On the other hand, everyone here has said that the T5's will only light inches from the light. The light I am looking at is comparable in cost to a 6 bulb T5.
> 
> I'll check out the name next time in the shop, memory is screwed at the moment.




I wld love to see a pic of this light or more info...led light the size of a can of beans that throws light well and only costs about the price of a 6 bulb t5?:holysheep: 
I did some research on LEDs when I was considering them or a T5 setup and the only ones I cld find getting any good results were at least 400watts and cost quite a bit of coin.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

I hear that, Hamster, I'll try to get some info for you. It as about $230 for an equiv to a 400w if I remember correctly. I'll call my hydro guy and get the details...


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

OK, my bad...it's actually equiv to a 150w and is here:

 hxxp://www.kessil.com/products/h150_led_grow_light.php

I also saw this one which covers a bigger area but only comes in red or blue:

hxxp://www.kessil.com/products/h150w_led_grow_light.php


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

TBH, I've never seen any of these cheap panels you speak of, but can only imagine going by what you say. I guess if I were judging by them, I'd say no as well...but not sure if these deliver what they say they do or not. A farmer here bought 6 and is doing the test I spoke of before up against a 1000w HPS, will be on time-lapse....


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

just get one and we can stop this thread the horse is already dead.



Yes, they will _work_.

/


----------



## Locked (Mar 23, 2011)

eBayItem number:	220757908537

Those are the kind that are crap...

Here is one that I almost got...Item number:	290544062588


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

OGKushman said:
			
		

> just get one and we can stop this thread the horse is already dead.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just because it's dead to you doesn't mean others aren't here trying to learn, if this thread bothers you, ignoring it is a simple fix!


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

lol Hamster, that looks like a disco floor...no wonder I'm hearing the tech isn't here yet! I wonder how those rate to something like the UFO's??


----------



## OGKushman (Mar 23, 2011)

This thread is fine. Small things like this is what i stick around for. To provide insight into better methods to grow for newer individuals.

But to our new members out there that are a little nieve. Keep this simple fact in mind when purchasing lighting equipment.

Lumens make light. Watts draw power. Power makes Energy, Energy makes Heat.

HPS/MH = MOST LUMENS PER WATT PER HEAT UNIT ADDED (MOST EFFICIENT)

ALL OTHER LIGHTS ARE LESS EFFICIENT. i.e.:waste money. using t5s isnt any different. Doesnt mean they are bad either. Just means they dont work as well.


Thank you for listening to your physics lesson for today. Lets hope you take it in and decide to progress forward.



good luck and eace:


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

Now that that's out of the way, can we get back to the discussion on LED's and if they are good as supplemental lights?


----------



## BBFan (Mar 23, 2011)

OGKushman said:
			
		

> Lumens make light. Watts draw power. Power makes Energy, Energy makes Heat.
> 
> *HPS/MH = MOST LUMENS PER WATT PER HEAT UNIT ADDED (MOST EFFICIENT)*
> 
> ALL OTHER LIGHTS ARE LESS EFFICIENT. i.e.:waste money. using t5s isnt any different. Doesnt mean they are bad either. Just means they dont work as well.


 
I need a little more teaching here. I've never seen this formula before. I always thought it was (put simply): WATTS (energy)= LIGHT (energy) + HEAT (energy), with the heat component being the inefficiency when discussing lights.

As far as the most lumens per watt, I think LPS would win hands down, with some flourescents coming in second. But we do know that LPS is ineffective for growing when compared to the more balanced spectrum (or more PAR specific) of a HID light (MH/HPS).

So, with LED putting out less heat (converting more energy to light), I would assume they are efficient. Then going 1 step further as it relates to indoor growing, LED's are capable of producing light waves in pinpoint spectrum (in nanometers) that plants respond most to- making them very efficient for our purposes.

But, my understanding is that the costs of producing the leds in the precise nm range is what's costly and still not commercially available yet. That is why I have not used LED lighting yet for growing- however I do use them in my field of work- they're bright, but not exact for growing.

But, as to the OP's question, I have no experience using LED's for growing- sorry I can't help.


----------



## babysnakess (Mar 23, 2011)

From stoneybuds journal, I think ledgp45's would be good to veg with. You can get one with shipping for under $150. I would like to try one for side lighting for my 600 watt hps, not to increase yield, but to increase potency.


----------



## StoneyBud (Mar 23, 2011)

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> I did some research on LEDs when I was considering them or a T5 setup and the only ones I cld find getting any good results were at least 400watts and cost quite a bit of coin.


You may want to take a look at the results I got from my 28 watt LEDs.

In the same room, using two 430 watt HPS, I got no better growth in 45 days of vegging from rooting. The only obvious difference was that the stems were about 25% smaller.

28 watts per/panel, four panels, as opposed to two 430 watt HPS.

No difference in growth other than what I mentioned above. I think the higher power LEDs are a waste of money. Their throw is no further than mine. They may increase some vegetative growth as far as leaves, but not enough to warrant the increase in cost and power usage.

I'm speaking from having used both the 28 watt LEDs and the 430 watt HPS in the exact same type of growing. None of the other variables changed.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

NOW we're getting a bit of discussion, THANKS! Stoney, are you saying the light I linked above wouldn't work any better than the panels? How tall did you get the plants?


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

BBFan said:
			
		

> I need a little more teaching here. I've never seen this formula before. I always thought it was (put simply): WATTS (energy)= LIGHT (energy) + HEAT (energy), with the heat component being the inefficiency when discussing lights.
> 
> As far as the most lumens per watt, I think LPS would win hands down, with some flourescents coming in second. But we do know that LPS is ineffective for growing when compared to the more balanced spectrum (or more PAR specific) of a HID light (MH/HPS).
> 
> ...



The different spectrum is one of my wonders here as well, the light I linked above boasts of a wider range. I am interested in this, especially if it's going to boost the bud growth on the bottom of the plant!


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

babysnakess said:
			
		

> From stoneybuds journal, I think ledgp45's would be good to veg with. You can get one with shipping for under $150. I would like to try one for side lighting for my 600 watt hps, not to increase yield, but to increase potency.



Have you got a link to these?


----------



## Bleek187 (Mar 23, 2011)

i think.   if you have HPS... and you add LEDs.... you will NOT see any diferance in the bud... try covering your walls in Mylar..  what you need to understand is how to make the light bounce around.. when the charged particals of light hit something like wood or something black, they go into that thing and change into heat..   when they hit something like Mylar they bounce rite off and keep going.. SO, cover everything in Mylar, this way the light that does not hit the plants bounces all around the room untill they do hit the plants.. in a perfect room the onlything NOT reflective in the room is the plants.. 

So basicly i just dont see using LEDs in a HPS room making any diferance at all


----------



## babysnakess (Mar 23, 2011)

I have a mylar covered tent. If you go to hightimes.com and plug in led growlights, you will find a comparison of led and hid lights. They used a prootype of the hidhut. What they stated they found out in their lab was test a, 400 mh against the led, the led did 12% better. Test b the 400 hps did 5% better, but using cuttings from the same mother and same growing conditions ther were markedly differences in potency, the led more potent even thoug it to a week longer to flower. Test c against a 600 watt hps, 20% less yield but resin production way up on the led side. The potency thing is what I'm getting at.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 23, 2011)

With the 90 day money back guarantee, it's a free bud trial...the sales pitch truly is promising, the pricing isn't bad either...and it'd cut down on heat!

eta...ledgp45's


----------



## StoneyBud (Mar 23, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Have you got a link to these?


The best thing you can do is a search for "GlowPanel45", make sure you buy the ones that are 28 watts. Look at the specs. Their first version had 14 watts. You want the one that says 28 watts.



			
				babysnakess said:
			
		

> I have a mylar covered tent. If you go to hightimes.com and plug in led growlights, you will find a comparison of led and hid lights. They used a prootype of the hidhut. What they stated they found out in their lab was test a, 400 mh against the led, the led did 12% better. Test b the 400 hps did 5% better, but using cuttings from the same mother and same growing conditions ther were markedly differences in potency, the led more potent even thoug it to a week longer to flower. Test c against a 600 watt hps, 20% less yield but resin production way up on the led side. The potency thing is what I'm getting at.


 
Exactly! Plus the cost savings and not jacking the electric bill up. My 112 watts is replacing 860 watts of HPS I used to use with no lessening of growth that matters, considering the manner I grow.



			
				Bleek187 said:
			
		

> i think. if you have HPS... and you add LEDs.... you will NOT see any diferance in the bud... try covering your walls in Mylar.. what you need to understand is how to make the light bounce around.. when the charged particals of light hit something like wood or something black, they go into that thing and change into heat.. when they hit something like Mylar they bounce rite off and keep going.. SO, cover everything in Mylar, this way the light that does not hit the plants bounces all around the room untill they do hit the plants.. in a perfect room the onlything NOT reflective in the room is the plants..
> 
> So basicly i just dont see using LEDs in a HPS room making any diferance at all


 
I'm inclined to agree with you, Bleek. Considering that the LEDs would have to be at about 6 inches from the plants to have any real affect on them. The HIDs would have to be further, so in essence, the LEDs would be blocking light from the HIDs and compromising any advantage the LED light might have had.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

Stoney, that's if you place them overhead?? I am looking to body light, so the lights would be to the side and not blocking any overhead. Would I get benefit then? Or from the one I linked to?


----------



## Jericho (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Stoney, that's if you place them overhead?? I am looking to body light, so the lights would be to the side and not blocking any overhead. Would I get benefit then? Or from the one I linked to?



As side lighting though how would you keep all plants close enough to the panel? If you had one plant you could rotate it yeh but depends on your grow set up.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

I'm not looking at the panels, I am looking at the "bean can" unit that throws more light (supposedly). I would put it aiming between the two plants in the front row to body feed them while the back row is fed with a 400w HPS. OR, I could put the unit down just over the 4 and let all 4 get some light, but this isn't the purpose i was looking for...IF the added spectrum proves more potency though........

I'll add that, while overhead isn't really my plan, the Kessil unit could work as I stated (placing overhead of the 4 plants) since it's so small it wouldn't block light and it would splash all plants...a little. I'm looking more for body light for my 4'-5' babes.


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy    Just buy the "can of beans" already....   you obviously dont want to hear any answers other then the one your looking for, so just make the leap buy the "can of beans" LED & be sure you save your reciept for the return when you see no improvements....


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

Wow, I didn't realize my questions were irking people so much, I am hoping to learn a little bit and HOPEFULLY not have buyer's remorse...this is the reason I ask so many questions (and maybe, just maybe someone else learns along the way?). No, I am not set on the can of beans, however, since it IS at my hydro shop, return would be easier and this would be my first choice IF it will work....why I am asking as much as I can think to ask....because I also hate to take things back. I ask these questions to learn, this is what I thought was obvious. 

I'd venture a question as to what you mean by no improvements (since it seems some think a panel would give better trich/potency, why wouldn't the Kessil), but I'll go to lurking. My apologies all.


----------



## nouvellechef (Mar 24, 2011)

Like I said. You already have a 1k. Focus on getting over 1k grams from each harvest. Thats alot of pot to smoke. Potency comes with fire strains, focus on those two things and you wont think about LED's anymore.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

Well NC, I am going to add light to the body anyway, just looking at what would be best to use. IF there'd be a benefit to the LED's, they're cheaper all around and I'd go for it, but I'm not going to go just to be different.

Keep in mind, I already have good lighting (but more light never hurts), but I grow tall gals and want to body feed to get more bud from the "wasteland"...while more light is a goal, if potency is added in the mix, BONUS!!!! 

As I said, just trying to learn here.


----------



## Jericho (Mar 24, 2011)

Also try keeping the tops cool under the HPS, most likely the drop in potency would come from the trichs being damaged because of the heat given off.

I dont think that using it as an additional light would help in potency, I can only see that the LED were more potent due to less light and heat damage from the light.


----------



## nouvellechef (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Well NC, I am going to add light to the body anyway, just looking at what would be best to use. IF there'd be a benefit to the LED's, they're cheaper all around and I'd go for it, but I'm not going to go just to be different.
> 
> Keep in mind, I already have good lighting (but more light never hurts), but I grow tall gals and want to body feed to get more bud from the "wasteland"...while more light is a goal, if potency is added in the mix, BONUS!!!!
> 
> As I said, just trying to learn here.



Yep. I know..... Focus on training. I have seen your pics. Why not save the money and spend it on some Cali Connect seeds or other high end strain? Then focus on the growing part to maximize yield. Its all about effiency. But teach his own. GL


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Wow, I didn't realize my questions were irking people so much, I am hoping to learn a little bit and HOPEFULLY not have buyer's remorse....


 
Roddy   youve asked the same question like 5 times in this thread & gotten the same answer from most members here...    

If you dont like the answers people are sharing or dont think they know what they are talkin about bc they havent used it first hand them fork out the dough and show us some improved growth on your lowers....?   you can return the item so no buyers remorse...?

Heres a thought to bulk up your lowers: harvest in stages and leave the lower buds on the plant longer...  :hubba:


----------



## StoneyBud (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy, the side lighting using LEDs won't help enough to bother with. LEDs **MUST** be within just a few inches of the part of the plant they're lighting. It makes no difference if it's a 28 watt LED or a 500 watt LED, it still has to be within a few inches of the part of the plant it's lighting.

LED lights have a MAX throw of about 18 inches. After about 6 inches, they don't do squat but make your plant stretch.

Lighting can NEVER be shining from below, UP, because that causes what is known as "competitive lighting" and that will cause more harm than good, resulting in the plant altering its proper hormone distribution to another type of distribution that will make the plant flower less and start growing stem length rapidly.

I would strongly suggest trying to use all the top lighting you can and just go with that. Top colas are where the majority of the harvest weight comes from, not the side growth.

In my opinion, based on my own use of LEDs and experience growing many, many crops and overseeing ten times that many, the side lighting is a waste of time and money. You'd do better maxing out the lumens per/sq ft from the top and go with that.

I've seen improvement on harvest weight up to 10 thousand lumens per/sq ft from the top. Providing you also deal with the heat produced and keep the plants far enough from the lamps IR output. All HID lights output IR. Too close and it will fry your plant tops and nothing will affect it unless you put a IR lens across your bulb and that will in turn lessen the usable lumens per/sq ft of good light.

I understand that you're trying to improve what is already the norm in plant lighting, but the path you're moving on isn't going to be productive. Side lighting just doesn't work enough to be worth it.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

I look back and all I see are the same NO answers from the same person, when asked what his answer was based on, I got nothing. To me, that's an opinion and I appreciate that, I'm looking for other opinions as well. 

When I ask pointed questions to clarify previous answers, I don't see this as asking the same question...example, I asked about the body lighting, I was told the panel would interfere with the HPS, I corrected that it would be side lighting and not in the HPS light way....

Yep, you can return it, but as I said, I'd be buying from a friend and wouldn't feel right returning something simply because it didn't pass the test. I'd feel the same returning to a stranger, almost like buying the big screen only to return the day after the Super Bowl...so yes, buyer's remorse. Even if it was junk, I'd be the owner in the end.

I do like the idea of harvesting in stages...will have to see if I can work that in.

Anyway, no, I don't think my question was answered or I'd not still be here asking and hoping for more info, and I do appreciate all that have chimed in. I guess if I want to know about this, the best thing is to just go blindly in and hope, when I get the money, I'll be the guinea pig LOL


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Mar 24, 2011)

multiple people told you, including myself, dont waste your money on LEDs in several posts on this thread...    Ive been the guinea pig ...trust me dont buy LEDs...   buy some air pots with the $ and you will def improve your yield...

buying a light that does not perform is nothing like buyin a tv and returning it after the super bowl...


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Roddy, the side lighting using LEDs won't help enough to bother with. LEDs **MUST** be within just a few inches of the part of the plant they're lighting. It makes no difference if it's a 28 watt LED or a 500 watt LED, it still has to be within a few inches of the part of the plant it's lighting.
> 
> LED lights have a MAX throw of about 18 inches. After about 6 inches, they don't do squat but make your plant stretch.
> 
> ...



THANKS Stoney, this is info I can use!!! I wondered about body lighting when in budding, but have heard others do it with success so wondered if this was a good option! I'm taking it the info I was shown on the unit needing to be a certain distance away from the plant was hype, too many are telling me LED's don't throw useful light that far.

Ok, so this brings me to my next question....discard the already used 400w HSP body lighting? I have it vertically hung between the plants...which brings me to this question...what about vert lighting, wouldn't this too cause competitive stretch??

MUCH appreciated, Stoney, this is what I have been looking for!!! Rep coming to you, my friend!


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> multiple people told you, including myself, dont waste your money on LEDs in several posts on this thread...    Ive been the guinea pig ...trust me dont buy LEDs...   buy some air pots with the $ and you will def improve your yield...
> 
> *buying a light that does not perform is nothing like buyin a tv and returning it after the super bowl...*



Already have smart pots. 

I'd be foolish if I never ventured to try to better yield AND potency...learning is my friend! My questions were focused on a product that I'm supposing no one here has tried...not just LED's in themselves....so truly, performance has neither been proven or otherwise. This also leads me to take all answers with a grain of salt since it's speculation on previous experience with a similar but different item, therefore leading me to ask specifying or clarifying questions.

As I said, I very much appreciate all who have chimed in and now have an idea of what my future plans are.


----------



## nouvellechef (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Already have smart pots.
> 
> I'd be foolish if I never ventured to try to better yield AND potency...learning is my friend! My questions were focused on a product that I'm supposing no one here has tried...not just LED's in themselves....so truly, performance has neither been proven or otherwise. This also leads me to take all answers with a grain of salt since it's speculation on previous experience with a similar but different item, therefore leading me to ask specifying or clarifying questions.
> 
> As I said, I very much appreciate all who have chimed in and now have an idea of what my future plans are.



You a funny kat. I like you. I tried telling you how to get more potency and yield and not spend anything.


----------



## StoneyBud (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> THANKS Stoney, this is info I can use!!! I wondered about body lighting when in budding, but have heard others do it with success so wondered if this was a good option! I'm taking it the info I was shown on the unit needing to be a certain distance away from the plant was hype, too many are telling me LED's don't throw useful light that far.
> 
> Ok, so this brings me to my next question....discard the already used 400w HSP body lighting? I have it vertically hung between the plants...which brings me to this question...what about vert lighting, wouldn't this too cause competitive stretch??
> 
> MUCH appreciated, Stoney, this is what I have been looking for!!! Rep coming to you, my friend!


 
The competitive growth problem is an odd thing to get your head wrapped around. In nature, when another plant germinates and grows immediately next to a plant that was there first, the sunlight that strikes the second plant will reflect to the *underside* of the leaves of the plant next to it. This is seen by the plant as competition for sunlight and the plant will produce stem elongation hormones that will result in the plant *rapidly* growing taller than it's "competitor".

When vertical lighting is used from the initial growth of a plant or group of plants, the leaves will almost immediately turn to the most strong lighting. Then, the *tops* of the leaves will be facing the light, not the bottom.

Vertical lighting will, by its very nature, also causes a degree of competitive lighting. Yes, height growth will be increased. It can't help but be. Other add-on hormones can be used to counter this result and make the plant more bushy.

Top lighting, even when done from the sides using a reflector to keep the light pointing downward, is best for the plant when considering all aspects of the desired end result in terms of overall growth, harvest weight of just the buds and the time taken to grow to harvest.

Yes, LEDs have a light throw of only 18 inches MAXIMUM. This isn't to say that the light at 18 inches is as good as the light at 4 inches. LEDs work best at about 4 to 6 inches from the leaves they are lighting.

If one were to have two rooms, and use vertical lighting on one plant and in the other room use only top lighting with side lighting done with reflectors to avoid competitive growth, the plant with no competitive lighting would grow shorter, bushier and have more nodes per/linear inch than the one dealing with competitive growth.

I've seen both and that is the results that I've seen. I'm sure there are those who will argue my conclusions, but that's ok. The final decision is yours to make.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> You a funny kat. I like you. I tried telling you how to get more potency and yield and not spend anything.



lol  Trust me, I'm already exploring those avenues as well...covering all bases here. I'm playing with LST, have been topping a few plants here and there and may eventually even try scrog or (yikes) hydro...I'm wide open to finding the best way to grow.

As for the Cali seeds....I'm just a bit hesitant at making the jump from fems to regs...almost bought some Larry on the last order, but couldn't force myself. What's your male/fem rate with them, if I may ask? My problem is, I don't have the luxury of waiting the plant out to sex maturity and find she's a he.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> The competitive growth problem is an odd thing to get your head wrapped around. In nature, when another plant germinates and grows immediately next to a plant that was there first, the sunlight that strikes the second plant will reflect to the *underside* of the leaves of the plant next to it. This is seen by the plant as competition for sunlight and the plant will produce stem elongation hormones that will result in the plant *rapidly* growing taller than it's "competitor".
> 
> When vertical lighting is used from the initial growth of a plant or group of plants, the leaves will almost immediately turn to the most strong lighting. Then, the *tops* of the leaves will be facing the light, not the bottom.
> 
> ...



Hmmm, I typed out a response and thought I hit reply, replied to NC and find I didn't reply at all?? OK, I'll try again lol...

This may be a dumb question, but are we talking strictly the bud room here? The bud room is where I am considering the body lighting.

I know what you mean on the plants beside each other comment, seen this a lot!


----------



## StoneyBud (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> This may be a dumb question, but are we talking strictly the bud room here? The bud room is where I am considering the body lighting.


 
The only truly "dumb question" is the question not asked. We all have blind spots in our education. When filling those missing parts of knowledge, no questions asked could be fairly considered "dumb".

That said, the stem elongation hormone can be spawned during any part of the plants life. When it increases during flowering, it's especially harmful to the final harvest weight. 

What happens is the inter-nodal spacing increases. This will decrease the amount of budding sites. It also slows the flowering while the plant expends its resources on stem elongation instead of using 100% of its resources on creating flowers.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 24, 2011)

OK, here's what I think will be the last on this then...adding the vert lighting to an already well-lit room won't improve, it will hamper? Does having lower wattage body lighting help since it's not beating out the primary? Essentially, should I move my 400w HPS overhead lol


----------



## nouvellechef (Mar 24, 2011)

Ok. I dont know where this thread is going. But I am just gonna show pics and end any debate on whether more stretch occurs, its inefficient, etc. This is a no joke room. Straight up light shining straight up the plant from the underside. You be the judge.


----------



## Locked (Mar 24, 2011)

That be a big boy room fo sho nchef.....man oh man


----------



## StoneyBud (Mar 24, 2011)

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> Ok. I dont know where this thread is going. But I am just gonna show pics and end any debate on whether more stretch occurs, its inefficient, etc. This is a no joke room. Straight up light shining straight up the plant from the underside. You be the judge.


 
Well, there isn't anything to judge. To tell if there would be any improvement if the light was NOT causing competitive growth, you'd have to have another plant of the same strain, same amount of lumens on it and identical nutrients.

Showing one side of the picture doesn't prove anything. 

It does show some pretty buds tho'. 

Perhaps there would have been more buds and shorter inter-nodal length had the light been only on the tops of the leaves.

I'm not trying to start or even contribute to any argument about it. Plant science has proven competitive growth and the causes of it. I believe them.


----------



## Bleek187 (Mar 24, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> I look back and all I see are the same NO answers from the same person, when asked what his answer was based on, I got nothing. To me, that's an opinion and I appreciate that, I'm looking for other opinions as well.
> 
> When I ask pointed questions to clarify previous answers, I don't see this as asking the same question...example, I asked about the body lighting, I was told the panel would interfere with the HPS, I corrected that it would be side lighting and not in the HPS light way....
> 
> Anyway, no, I don't think my question was answered or I'd not still be here asking and hoping for more info, and I do appreciate all that have chimed in. I guess if I want to know about this, the best thing is to just go blindly in and hope, when I get the money, I'll be the guinea pig LOL


 

"LEDs to add to HPS Worth it?"   

NO .. FACT .. The End

Smiley Face


----------



## BBFan (Mar 25, 2011)

Roddy-  I had the opportunity to spend the day yesterday with someone who has been in the field of LED manufacturing for over 20 years- the company he works for has been in business for 53 years.  Quite knowledgeable.

Unfortunately, the venue did not allow for me to ask questions specific to growing, but we did have a good discussion about the technology.

I think the most important bit of information I got from the conversation was about the lenses that are incorporated into each bulb.  While the LED's were about 25% less efficient in a lumens to watt comparison to flourescents (specifically T-8's in our discussion), the led's actually performed better at a distance from the bulb compared to a flourescent tube.  So perhaps what you read regarding the recommended distance (12" +/-) is actually more effective than keeping the plants an inch or two from the lights as has been mentioned in this thread.

Good luck in your continued research.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 25, 2011)

THANKS BBFan, this is helpful! I knew I hadn't heard wrong and that everything I had read said differently than others here, but was getting discouraged it could have been hype. This gives me a bit of encouragement! The research continues!!!


----------



## Roddy (Mar 25, 2011)

I think a lot of the no answers are coming from perception of old technology. As I tried to tell OG several times (and was laughed at) this tech is evolving quickly, I think this shows I am on the right track...maybe the light isn't ready, but it is advancing!


----------



## Hick (Mar 25, 2011)

I don't believe it matters one bit what answer is given, predominate, correct, or proven. "Some" are going to question it, bicker about it. Doesn't matter how much evidence or information is provided. If it isn't the answer that thy 'want' to hear, it's going to be "I don't believe it.".. Which is fine, but why bother asking?????... 
Discussion and debate can be educational, informative, but some folks simply thrive on controversy and arguing.


----------



## Roddy (Mar 25, 2011)

I know Hick, I wish everyone had an open mind!  

For some it's not so much an I don't believe it as it's a what are you basing this on? I'm in that boat, I like to know the opinion is based on more than a gut feeling or perception of old tech....or simple bias. For instance, I report about the light throw and am told this is wrong repeatedly, I now find I was actually right. So, should I take all the "NO" answers without questions....even knowing the info I had was different and straight from the horses mouth (manufacturer AND the hydro guy who has been using it even if only for herbs and tomatoes)? And if they're mistaken on this, could they be mistaken on more of their perception....

I think the asking is because people wish to learn, to hear others' experiences and to form their own opinion based on such, I know this is me, and I'm not afraid to ask even if it is unpopular. Personally, I am wide open to answers, but what I don't "want" to hear are simple "NO" answers without anything to back them!


----------



## Hick (Mar 25, 2011)

.. The sky is blue ....grass is green...


----------



## StoneyBud (Mar 25, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> I like to know the opinion is based on more than a gut feeling or perception of old tech....or simple bias.


 
Well put!

As a result of when I learned a lot of my technical information, sometimes I run into parts of it that updated without my being aware of it.

I enjoy learning. When someone can show me an update to what I've said, I appreciate it greatly, but as you've said Roddy, when someone just says "Your idea is stupid, it's done this way now", I dismiss them because they have offered nothing but insult and opinion, not facts with references that back up what they say has changed.

Like the post BBFan made about meeting the Lighting Professional. Very interesting. I think I freak out people like that because I'm so fascinated by the information they have that I want to hear it all!


----------



## Roddy (Mar 25, 2011)

Actually, the sky is grey and the grass is brown right now lol....


----------



## Roddy (Mar 25, 2011)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Well put!
> 
> As a result of when I learned a lot of my technical information, sometimes I run into parts of it that updated without my being aware of it.



Exactly Stoney, tech advances quickly and sometimes right under our noses without us even knowing.


----------



## Hick (Mar 25, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Actually, the sky is grey and the grass is brown right now lol....



...


----------



## Roddy (Mar 25, 2011)

What way is the wind blowing, how are you holding your mouth, what bait are you using and what method...trolling or slow reel?


----------



## BBFan (Mar 25, 2011)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Like the post BBFan made about meeting the Lighting Professional. Very interesting. I think I freak out people like that because I'm so fascinated by the information they have that I want to hear it all!


 
Yeah Stoney, the guy kept giving me curious looks during our chat.  I think it was because I was asking very pointed questions and specifics- something I guess most don't ask- he's probably used to questions regarding "How much will I save a month" and not much else.  So he really got in to talking about the tech and comparisons to competitors (again, this had nothing to do with growing).  Very informative.

Amusing side note, the technology was original developed for use in airplanes starting in the late 50's to early 60's.  It seems incandescents (filament based lighting) could not hold up to the takeoffs / turbulence / landings and kept failing.  I didn't know that either  .


----------



## Roddy (Mar 25, 2011)

They are being used in some high-end bicycle lighting as well, very bright. They're also used in many car applications including driving lights and brake/rear lights! The technology has come a long way, maybe it'll be good for growing soon!


----------



## StoneyBud (Mar 25, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> The technology has come a long way, maybe it'll be good for growing soon!


 
They already are. LEDs provide great lighting for vegging. I'll be trying them for flowering soon.


----------

