# compost vs prem soil



## dozer42 (Dec 30, 2006)

last years od i was kind of running on a budget. i could not afford to put $75 dollars worth of soil in each hole. i went to the compost site and filled a pickup truck full for $15. the end result i could tell no differances between the plants grown in promo soil compaired to compost. but when i was doing all my reading last spring, no one suggesgted using compost. every one was for the premo soil. 

well this year we have a savings and would be able to fill our holes with premo soil but is it worth it? is there something im missing about compost that no one uses it?


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## Stoney Bud (Dec 30, 2006)

dozer42 said:
			
		

> last years od i was kind of running on a budget. i could not afford to put $75 dollars worth of soil in each hole. i went to the compost site and filled a pickup truck full for $15. the end result i could tell no differances between the plants grown in promo soil compaired to compost. but when i was doing all my reading last spring, no one suggesgted using compost. every one was for the premo soil.
> 
> well this year we have a savings and would be able to fill our holes with premo soil but is it worth it? is there something im missing about compost that no one uses it?


 
Yes, it can be unpredictable. You have no idea what is in it, or how much of what is in it. If it's truly compost and has been burned in, then it's as safe as compost can ever be. If it's still cooking, you'll burn your plants up.

The dirt is exactly what it says it is on the bag.

It's a control thing...

Good luck man!


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## Cakes (Dec 31, 2006)

I think burning herb plants is a bit of a myth when it comes to using materials that are "too rich". I have used 1/3 straight horse manure combined into my soil. Yes, it was not fresh made yesterday but it was not unusually aged either and it had a bit of green color here and there. I put it into one gallon pots and grew healthy seedlings.

Compost can be looked at. And felt. And it can be smelled.

All three tests are capable of telling one whether it is good stuff.

Looking~

does it have large pieces of stuff that has not been broken down? if so, it may have a little ways to go, depending on what the chunks look like; a few chunks which are 1/2"-1" (1.25-2.5cm) per handful are ok as long as they look like natural products like bark or straw and such. Chunks will give our worms and microbes something to work on during the season.

is it regular dirt?<<if not, then it is compost. 

Feeling~

is it soft? spongy?

does it feel okay in your hand?

Smell~

one of the best tests for those who insist on completely finished compost. We can smell the depth of it like wine and it is different than regualr dirt. A very good test is to take a big handful and moisten it and enclose it in an airtight jar and leave it in a warm place for a few days. Now smell it.._not too close for the first whiff!_..if it is not rancid or unpleasant then you have well finished compost. Just tell the seller you must take a handful home for the spouse to inspect...


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## KADE (Dec 31, 2006)

"Rich" imho isn't full of nutes... more full of helpful bacteria I'd say. It is impossible for a good quality of soil to burn a plant.


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## Stoney Bud (Dec 31, 2006)

I didn't mean "burnt" in the sense of actually burning compost.

It's an old farmers expression meaning the compost has aged sufficiently to break down to a point that it will not cause nitrogen burn to plants.

During the break down period, it will surely do so.

It's one of the reasons that farmers plow under a nutrient crop an entire season before planting. It gives the composted crop enough time to break down in the soil to a point that it will help, not hurt the plants.

Pests and harmful bacteria are also eliminated or at least lessened by doing this.


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## Stoney Bud (Dec 31, 2006)

Cakes said:
			
		

> I think burning herb plants is a bit of a myth when it comes to using materials that are "too rich". I have used 1/3 straight horse manure combined into my soil.


If you put nothing but fresh manure on your plants, you'll kill them. This is what I meant. I can promise you this is no myth. Graduations of this extreme can be harmful to a point.

Fill a 5 gallon bucket with fresh manure of any kind. Plant a rooted MJ seedling in it and you'll see it die within a day or two.

That's what I'm talking about.


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## dozer42 (Dec 31, 2006)

so my understanding is if i can find a good batch of compost, other than knowing really whats in it like you do with prem soil, it is a good growing medium? i add lots of nutes, lime and ect to the compost so i know kind of what in there.

i also let my holes sit for about 2 weeks before i put my ladies out there. not sure if this time frame helps any or not.


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## Cakes (Dec 31, 2006)

I agree that using fresh manure _ONLY_ is quite likely to burn a precious little herb plant. You can see that I gave an example of what *has* worked for me (1/3 slightly aged manure with 2/3 soil).

my point was>>the issue of burning plants with too much soil amendments has been blown way out of proportion. We are able to use a greater quanity of amendments in our soils than is usually practiced or preached in herb forums.



			
				Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> I didn't mean "burnt" in the sense of actually burning compost.
> 
> It's an old farmers expression meaning the compost has aged sufficiently to break down to a point that it will not cause nitrogen burn to plants.
> 
> During the break down period, it will surely do so.


 
not "surely" if one uses appropriate amounts. You can see in my post that I have used enough manure to constitute 1/3 of the soil mass and I have used it successfully.

and I am aware of the colloquial use of the term "burn". I used it in the same sense in which you are specifying. and I agree that N burn is to be avoided. N burn can kill a plant overnight.



			
				Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> (aging is) one of the reasons that farmers plow under a nutrient crop an entire season before planting. It gives the composted crop enough time to break down in the soil to a point that it will help, not hurt the plants.


 
Farmers often plow under to prevent the *loss* of the very nutrients that you speak of. Leaving amendments like manure on the top of the soil over the winter allows the loss of a great deal of nitrogen to the atmosphere. The loss begins to occur within days of it's application. This is one reason that covering one's pile of manure or compost is considered proper pile management<<to prevent significant losses of nutrients.



			
				Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> Pests and harmful bacteria are also eliminated or at least lessened by doing this.


 
The growth cycle of certain pests can be disrupted by plowing (notably grasshoppers). But as far as pests and harmful bacteria from amendments such as manure>>I have never heard of any that affect plants. If you have, I'd appreciate you naming a few.


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## Stoney Bud (Jan 1, 2007)

Cakes said:
			
		

> <...as far as pests and harmful bacteria from amendments such as manure>>I have never heard of any that affect plants. If you have, I'd appreciate you naming a few.>...


Composting involves the microbial decomposition of piled organic materials into partially decomposed residues, called compost or humus. When made correctly, the finished product has a pH near neutral and a C:N ratio close to 15:1, the majority of weed seeds and pathogens in the original material have been destroyed, and it provides a well-balanced and slow release nutrient supply (Smith, 1994). 

One of the worst of course, is _E. coli _O157:H7 .

The plant isn't affected by E. coli, but the people who handle the plant will be if it's present. Many harmful bacteria in addition to O157:H7 can be found in animal manure. A quick Google will find them.

*Cow manure* is the coldest; that is, the least Nitrogen rich. But thats not a bad thingtoo much Nitrogen gives you big plants with few to no fruits and flowers; and cow manure is the most balanced of the barnyard manures, making it very appropriate for all garden uses. 

*Horse manure* is hot; richer in Nitrogen and physically warm to theehtouch so to speak. It is also _lower_ in the fruiting and rooting nutrients Phosphorus and Potassium, which is why we always warn people not to use horse manure on flowering plants. Use it on non-flowering, nitrogen-hungry plants like lawns, corn, potatoes, garlic, and lettuce; but _not _on tomatoes, peppers, flowers, and such. This _IS _generally the manure most widely available to gardeners, however; so at the very least, take it and incorporate it into your compost, where it will lose its fruit-and-flower inhibiting power. 
*Sheep: *I was surprised in my research (yesI looked stuff up this week!) to see that this is even hotter than horse, with about half again as much nitrogen. But it is _equally_ rich in Potassium, making it much more balanced. Sheep are smaller (and people say Im not observant!) and less numerous than horsies, so I dont imagine youd ever be offered much. But take what you can get, and use it sparingly. Its balanced, but _rich_. 
*Poultry: *Hotter than hot! More than twice as hot as horse manure, so a little goes a long, long way. Mix _small _amounts of this material well into your compost piles and the result will be a powerful organic fertilizer. Again, keep the amounts smalland even then, keep an eye on any fruiting and flowering plants that receive this gift. If they get big but under-produce otherwise, back off a little. 
*Other *If the ****-producer is a vegetarian (rabbit, gerbil, guinea pig, llama, elephant, rhino, etc.) go right ahead and incorporate it into your compost pile. (Warningelephant pies are the size of a football, composed of mostly undigested roughage, and take forever to break down. I recommend helping things along with a machete and/or baseball bat. But once it _is _finally done, the resulting compost keeps the deer _MILES_ away.) 

If the animal is a meat eater, like a dog, cat, lion or tiger, do _not _use the material in *any* form; even meat-eaters that are kept indoors can harbor dangerous parasites that are completely absent in veggie manures. 

In addition to the bacterialogical problems accociated with fresh manure, many pests are found it it that can be harmful to humans because of their disease carring capibility.

Many kinds of flies; 

*House Flies*
*Stables Flies*
*Horn Flies*
*Face Flies*
*Horse Flies*


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## Cakes (Jan 2, 2007)

dozer42 said:
			
		

> so my understanding is if i can find a good batch of compost, other than knowing really whats in it like you do with prem soil, it is a good growing medium? i add lots of nutes, lime and ect to the compost so i know kind of what in there.
> 
> i also let my holes sit for about 2 weeks before i put my ladies out there. not sure if this time frame helps any or not.


 
Sorry Dude, your post got snuck in there while I was answering *SB*.

Compost is great to grow in. It can be used in huge quantities with no danger to your plants. I've never used it straight, I always throw in at least 1/4 regular dirt because I think there is very stable potassium in regular dirt and potassium is good for sugar production (sugar helps make THC crystals)<<it's kind of a cell wall issue..

I have no real opinion on the lime; but do be careful because it is alkaline and pure compost is neutral in pH and so the balance can be tipped if there are no compensating factors like the addition of native acidic soil or whatnot..

You didn't name the other nutes but if you've researched or experimented, then you're probably fine.

To tell you the truth, I like compost mostly for it's soil conditioning abilities. It makes the soil porous. It adds different sized particles. It's darn loamy and herb likes loamy.

and also, Since "finished" compost is "finished", that means that it has been worked over by microbes and it does have food in it if it has not been abused by leaching and exposure but said food will be exposed to leaching with the watering we give our plants and also the plants themselves will take some food out, so do not expect compost to truly feed your plants for all season long as is. of course worm and organic mulch can be ways to get continual composting to occur.

Monitor the plant growth to determine how they are doing. they should grow at least an inch a day (2.5cm) and be of uniform color with a brighter green expected at the growing tips and an eventual yellowing and browning of a few of the lowest fan leaves later in the season.


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## Cakes (Jan 2, 2007)

I have been making compost piles and using compost as a growing medium for a *while*.



			
				Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> ...the majority of weed seeds and pathogens in the original material have been destroyed...
> 
> ...One of the worst of course, is _E. coli _O157:H7 .
> 
> ...


 
1. I would counsel compost users to expect weeds to sprout anyway regardless of hot composting methods.

2. E.coli is not carried in the plant and E.coli is not harmful unless eaten. And do you read of farmers everywhere falling dead from E.coli exposure? No you do not.

3. "many harmful bacteria in addition to (E.coli)"...uh, see above post about undead farmers. Dude, we are not talking about _eating_ piles of feces..you are taking texts and portraying them in a way which is not real life.

4. BUT I did forget about the carnivores; composting their leavings must be done in a very thorough way if one intends to use them. and you reminded me of something very important>>>
cat feces can release airborne eggs of parasites which are primarily dangerous to the unborn; the eggs do TERRIBLE things to a fetus; so that means that pregnant women should not handle cat poo unless they use rubber gloves and an appropriate face mask and they should be aware that not all face masks work the same - some 'medical quality' face masks only keep us from exhaling germs, like the ones they use for surgery, and those masks do not prevent the inhalation of bad things like those eggs in the poo...other medical grade masks are designed to stop the bad things from coming in<<<so get the right kind if you have a cat litter box and have no one to clean it for you.

5. Flies which have been in a country setting are not very dangerous, so says my aunt the doctor in entomolgy (student of bugology). See how we have no country people falling dead from flies? The flies that are a little dangerous are the ones that dumpster dive in cities for it is there that the crud is and those mucky messes exist because of the lack of beneficial microbial life, our beautiful composters, a.k.a thermophiliacs, the first known life on planet Earth.


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## dozer42 (Jan 2, 2007)

thanks every one for the insite on compost. when i mix my out side compost i add lime, bat guano (the high n stuff) and water crystals. i think that i am going to use mainly compost, and add in a bag of the fox farm soil to the mix.

you guys are so much help. couldn't do it with out you guys. i just cant wait till i get to start helping people instead of always looking for info.


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## longtimegrower (Jan 5, 2007)

Hey guys one thing i miss about living in the south is gin dirt. For those who don`t know what that is in the south where the gin the cotton the remove all the trash leaves and stems from the cotton and dunp it on the gtound in a pile behind the gin. The epa stoped hem from burning it. after a couple yease of decompozing it makes the best dirt you can find. All the foueign seeds dies when it goes through a heat and sprout. Mj will grow a stalk bigger than your upper arm. Anyone who lives in the south but is unaware of this look for a gin near you. Most of the time the gin company is happy for you too haul it off. If your in the north try the hardware and garden stores about this time of year. Business is slow this time of year and you can usually buy  the broken bags really cheap. Like ten dollars for 20 broken bags.  Good luck and just thought it might help


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## dozer42 (Jan 6, 2007)

i will check it out for sure. always lookin for new info. thanks man


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