# epson salts and lime



## shuggy4105 (Mar 1, 2007)

can anyone give me a quick description of what "epson salts" and "garden" lime are used for.(should they be mixed in at the beggining with perlite etc?)
I have recently purchased the two items mentioned,however the box tells nothing.
should i wait untill a problem arrises before using these?


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## Hick (Mar 1, 2007)

shuggy..if you add the lime, the epsoms won't be neccessary. Lime provides calcium, magnesium(epsoms) and is a "buffer" for you soils ph.
YES, it should be mixed in "prior" to planting for the best results. 1 tbs p/gal of medium.


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## shuggy4105 (Mar 1, 2007)

Thanx alot Hick.
i`ll post e couple of pictures soon,once i get the complete set-up finnished.

cheers,


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## noodles (Mar 4, 2007)

Hello

I was also curious about the lime. Where can I buy a small box of the horticulture lime and what would be a popular brand that most growers would use? Would you guys know off hand a small box of it costs? Could it be mixed in if the p[lants are in vegging of flowering? Just curious if it would help my plants. A few of the leaves have yellow spots. I dont use hardly any nutes and was thinking about my ph levels.

Later


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## Hick (Mar 4, 2007)

"Any" garden center, noodles. Wally world, Lowes, HD,...
Lime "should" really be mixed into the medium "PRIOR" to planting....and mixed 'well'. 
A PH measureing device is essential. You need to "know"...


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## noodles (Mar 4, 2007)

Hi there Hick

I currently premix my tap water with a ph down set at around 6-6.5. But do you think that it would change drastically or not? They seem to do alrigh except for those couple leaves that worry me.  I know it would be hard for you to tell without being my gardener but just wanted your opinion. So do you think it would be pointless now? If so, would you know of a different product that I could add now to maintain a proper ph level?

Later


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## shuggy4105 (Mar 4, 2007)

"I" beleive that it can be added after,it should only be done if your plants are already established in  pots. water in well after applying.amounts for single pots-i`m just not sure.maybe someone else can elaborate on that?
hope this helps noodles.:ccc:


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## Hick (Mar 5, 2007)

..I'm just not "sure" on that shuggy. I've read, that it takes some time to "move" through the soil and become effective. But elephantman seemed to have some positive results topdressing. 
"I've" never topdressed with it, only premixed it.


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## shuggy4105 (Mar 5, 2007)

yeah Hick,i read the thread with yourself and e-man on the subject of "how long it can take lime to move 2" through soil,2 years!
since e-man said he had good results from applying to the top soil,i thought "what the hell" n` gave it a go.    still awaiting results,will keep all informed .


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## Hick (Mar 5, 2007)

great!!..glad to see you have done your research..


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## Elephant Man (Mar 5, 2007)

I use alot of lime, unless your soil is not new or is manufactured on the acidic side, you shouldn't really need it...

unless, you recycle soil like I do, you add a ton of soil amendments like I do, or you use only reverse osmosis water like I do.

Lime is a very good source of Ca/Mg and at a very good ratio too IMO, at 2/1.  I have heard of those using as much as 2 tablespoons per gallon in coco (binds Ca/Mg) or hot mixes, or really bad water I guess, I wouldn't use more than that.  Some have said you can 'lock' your ph in with this ratio, and amend away, or recycle peat.

I am not too sure of it's ability to make a difference after transplant, but it has improved ph for me in the past.  I have read about those that add it monthly in flower I actually have 3 kinds:

Dolomitic lime is most common and usually pelletized, it is also definately slowest acting.

Oyster shell lime is faster acting and more micronized, but Mg may have to be added, mine only contains Ca.  I believe it is less concentrated buffering, and I have been told to use 1/4 cup per gallon...still messing with that.

Hydrated lime is micronized powder and I would not recommend it for container growing.

For quick ph fixes, I would try watering it in if you cannot transplant, just scratch it into the surface of soil and add some new soil if you can.

For Ca/Mg deficiencies, I would mix up an epsom foliar, or heat and dissolve 1/4 tsp in a gallon of water and give as feeding...isn't that the ratio Hick?  I use a different Ca/Mg additive.

I have read many different threads and articles on lime and more importantly on lasting effects of amendments, I really don't understand completely why, but I burn through amendments in containers indoors like you wouldn't believe...according to outdoor growing articles.  Rock phosphate and Azomite and Greensand and other amendments I use are supposed to last for years....but they don't.  I guess my microbial activity is super active I guess...should see how fast stuff gets processed in the aerobic teamaker.


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## Hick (Mar 5, 2007)

> For Ca/Mg deficiencies, I would mix up an epsom foliar, or heat and dissolve 1/4 tsp in a gallon of water and give as feeding...isn't that the ratio Hick? I use a different Ca/Mg additive.


 I believe that is correct for foliar feeding, but 1 tsp p/gal for rootzone feeding, I do believe. Root feeding might be deterred, if you can get the lime working in your favor. 
I have a pretty high ppm of calcium in my well water. In combination with the oyster shell in the FF soil,  I've worried about lockup when adding lime, but have yet to experience any "real" issues that I could attribute directly.


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## noodles (Mar 5, 2007)

I have a plant in flowering on its second week and it has only grown an inch in 11 days. Ive read that this could be due to a lack of Calcium. Is this true. My other plants in flowering are growing at a good pace. So Im assuming that it is not getting something that it needs. The stalk is also a reddish color if this helps anyone giving any help.


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## Elephant Man (Mar 5, 2007)

Don't know how to quote each of you all cool like:

Noodles, stop by the sick plants forum and answer as many questions as possible from the post at the top of that forum...we need alot more info to give any real diagnosis, she sounds hungry or ph is low but who knows...too many variables involved.

Hick: I am lucky to have pretty good city water, but I bought the RO unit for drinking water also.  Would bubbling your well water precipitate any calcium like it does for chlorine?  I bet there is something really simple that mind bind it up so you can sift it out, K? Molasses?...just hypothesizing with you for fun.


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Mar 5, 2007)

I don't necessarily agree with hick that if you add lime you don't need epsom salts... that's not true IME.

Mg is so essential to bud mass and potency that most growers tend to overlook it and mistake def of Mg for something else. No matter how much lime you add to the soil, the plants WILL need a spritzing  every few weeks with some dissolved epsoms in a spray bottle  to keep the Mg def at bay.

Mg is used THROUGHOUT the plants lifecycle. In larger amounts than any other nutrient cept Calcium. ALWAYS keep a 5 lb bag of epsom salts around....it will last you 50 years lol. 

Anyways, some brands can be added to the soil at the roots with no problems like Epsoma can... and a couple others i can't remember right now. However I don't like to do this in soil, because it becomes saline very quickly. Foliar feed with epsoms is the best way to administer it.

Save soil applications for late flower, when spraying your plants is not possible.


Ammending with dolomite lime will keep it at bay for about a month, but after that you must supplement. Most organic lines of nutrients don't have enough Mg in em to keep it fully in check either.... Few do.... so the epsoms are a must for any gardener...


just remember dolomite lime isn't a cure all, and must be composted in the soil for a couple weeks before all the micronutes it has becomes available.


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Mar 5, 2007)

Noodles if you have reddening of the stalks  and leaf stems then you got  a def in the k areas.

Check the pH and get back with us, if it's okay then you need to feed it good.. You should be feeding at full strength by flowering... Give it a good shot of an all around fertilizer ... like a 3-3-3 or something similar.


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## noodles (Mar 5, 2007)

Thanks Mr.Wakenbake for the helpful info. I gave a feeding just now of Grow Big and I fed it a little this morning. It has now grown a half inch today first time it has grown in 8-10 days. Just needed some food I think.

Later


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## shuggy4105 (Mar 5, 2007)

so......what`s the over all view on this subject,epson salts and lime?
lime also has magnesium and calcium too(i beleive).
i guess it`s up to the growers preference,which additive to use and when.
any more views on the matter welcome.:ciao: :welcome: :smoke1: lol


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Mar 5, 2007)

glad to help noodles... dont' be scared to feed em with organics.. heck i feed every water but of course my media is coco based too. 

Anwways good luck.

Dolomite lime also supplies a plethora of other micronutes so just remember that.. it don't just supply Ca and Mg.


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## Hick (Mar 6, 2007)

Mr.Wakenbake said:
			
		

> I don't necessarily agree with hick that if you add lime you don't need epsom salts... that's not true IME.
> 
> Mg is so essential to bud mass and potency that most growers tend to overlook it and mistake def of Mg for something else. No matter how much lime you add to the soil, the plants WILL need a spritzing  every few weeks with some dissolved epsoms in a spray bottle  to keep the Mg def at bay.
> 
> ...



hmmmm, Maybe it's due to the differenc in base medium, wake'n'...while you're in stright coco, I start with FF OF, which is pretty rich. I also repot to new, fresh soil at least twice. Once just prior to flowering. But "with this mix" and supplimentation with FF trio, _"I"_ have yet to experience a defficiency due to mg, and I've been useing it for better than 3 yrs. I haven't added a grain of epsoms for years. 
so, _in my experience_.. "epsoms are not a must"...for every gardener. (though it does make a nice foot soak..)
Magnesium is definately one of the most essential, and probably one of the most overlooked nutrients, on that I will agree. 

I guess my "generalization"..(if you add lime, you *won't* need epsoms) wasn't any less misleading than "you must supplement."..hee hee I aploogize..


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## Elephant Man (Mar 6, 2007)

Both of you make excellent points...just adding to a great thread, yes Wake, I agree completely, MJ is a bigtime Ca/Mg hog. 

Hick has a good point too, I don't use epsoms either.  I don't think Wake is in 100% coco, but it should be pointed out that coco binds Ca/Mg in it's matrix, by slowly releasing P, and yes I use it too and luv it.  Epsom (or equivalent) should definately be kept close by though, for quick fixes.

A lotta small details often get missed in discussions like this, I am particularly fond of pointing out the variables involved.  Predominantly warm spectrums (hps) will cause the ladies to burn more Mg than cooler (mh).  Also bone meal, guanos, steer manure, vermiculite, and mineral additives such as azomite all release micros in small amounts.


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## Hick (Mar 6, 2007)

> A lotta small details often get missed in discussions like this,


..exactly...I hope wake'n doesn't take it as dissing his advice, or a correction. Simply different results from different details in the methods..IMO. 
 ....so many variables...so little time..


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Mar 6, 2007)

nice discussion guys and gals... I take no offense yall none at all.... 
carry on


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## Nameless (Mar 8, 2007)

alright..im..new..at..this..site..so..bear..with..me..if..im..asking..the..wrong.questions.in.
this..forum..but..i.saw..the.thing.on..ph..and..went..and..bought..teh.up..and..down
from..petco..theaquarium..kind..and..im..not..sure..how.to..apply..it..does..the.
liquid..get.put..in..the..water,the..soil..or..the..plant..?

srry..for.wasting..time..with..which..i..am.sure..is..a..newbie..mistake..
but..this..is..something..i..plan..on..doing..forever..and..becoming..quite.well.
at..to..so..ya..

thanks..for..all..the..help..and..if..there..is..nething..else..i..should.knoe..that.
is..appreciated
peace&love


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## KADE (Mar 8, 2007)

You would use the ph up or down in the water. You will need ph test strips or a digi meter to see what the ph is and adjust accordingly.

The only time you are wasting is putting the 2 periods between each word.


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## Elephant Man (Mar 8, 2007)

Hey Hick...after a few days pondering and many doobies it all became clear to me.  I bet you add perlite huh?  Lately something has been bothering me about 'inert' medium in soil.  We container growers have to maximize root zone right?  How about switching to coco in place of the perlite?  It stays neutral for at least 3 cycles and with the binding of Mg, lime or well water calcium shouldn't be an issue?  The bonus you would get is two-fold.  Stuff is fluffier than anything you have ever seen....hydrate a $2 hydro store brick and see for yourself.  The other benefit, is that after a good Ca/Mg rinse before use, it will basically be inert till flower...when it really becomes beneficial by releasing K.  If you get anymore leeway with lime, you can add even more 'cheap' goodies to the soil and save the bio-bloom for boosting.  Without ever worrying about ph.  Hope you don't mind me tossing ideas around with you, perhaps Mr. Wake or others will chime in.


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## Nameless (Mar 8, 2007)

KADE said:
			
		

> You would use the ph up or down in the water. You will need ph test strips or a digi meter to see what the ph is and adjust accordingly.
> 
> The only time you are wasting is putting the 2 periods between each word.



srry..bout..the..dots..kade..keyboard..is..broken..

butifanyoneprefersmetypingwithoutthemletmeknow

i..just..think..it..makes.it..easier..to.read


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## Growdude (Mar 8, 2007)

Nameless said:
			
		

> srry..bout..the..dots..kade..keyboard..is..broken..
> 
> butifanyoneprefersmetypingwithoutthemletmeknow
> 
> i..just..think..it..makes.it..easier..to.read


 
If you cant afford a new keyboard I dont think you can afford to grow.


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## Hick (Mar 8, 2007)

ROFL..nameless..Ipreferthedotsithink


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## shuggy4105 (Mar 8, 2007)

"dito"lol


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Mar 9, 2007)

Elephant man- you are exactly right, I am not in 100 % coco. I use a coco soil mix. Basically I have replaced the peat portion of my soil mix with Sunleaves brand Classic Coco Coir... I mixed it with organic bagged humus and perlite. All 100% organic, and less than 10% peat overall.

However I did run 100% coco for a little while , i just don't like having to water/feed everyday so i made a more soil like mixture. I still get the benefits of coco without having to waste alot of nutrients.

As far as the plants using varying amounts of (x) nutrient.... From what I have seen it really just varies from plant to plant. Just remember, Coco even though it looks like soil IS NOT SOIL, and it is BARREN.. you must give it everything it needs. 

Anyways, I don't take offense bro's and bro ette's


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## Hick (Mar 9, 2007)

the cocoo coir has my interest. I'll be looking into picking up a bale/bag, and experimenting soon. I think I like the idea of administering "exzactly" what the plant recieves. E'mans post, stimulated the o' bean here.. 
At present, I'm preppin' for spring, and an outdoor op. I think I'll stick with "what I know" for now. No sense in risking a setback at this point, due to my lack of experience with the coco. 
But Mr 'bake, expect some queries, when I'm ready. I'll be looking for supprt..


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## Elephant Man (Mar 9, 2007)

Hick said:
			
		

> the cocoo coir has my interest. I'll be looking into picking up a bale/bag, and experimenting soon. I think I like the idea of administering "exzactly" what the plant recieves. E'mans post, stimulated the o' bean here..
> At present, I'm preppin' for spring, and an outdoor op. I think I'll stick with "what I know" for now. No sense in risking a setback at this point, due to my lack of experience with the coco.
> But Mr 'bake, expect some queries, when I'm ready. I'll be looking for supprt..


 
Thanks Hick, I enjoy pushing others to try new stuff.

I have some in 100% coco, and Wake is right...it is alot of work.  50/50 coco perlite might be a little more forgiving on the daily waterings, but I choose to go the same route he did, and mix it with my soil....mmmm...yummy fluff.  For a reference on how fast it dries, I am thinking perhaps like 25% faster than say...straight Ocean Forest with no added perlite...somewhere between that and rockwool.

Coco is really pretty easy Hick, I sat and stared at my bale for nearly a month until I found a bit of info that prompted me to try it.

K/Ca/Mg should be at a ratio of 3/2/1.  Ca/Mg in coco should be 140-160 ppm.

Seems to be working just fine.

I presoaked mine in this solution, then rinsed, allowed to dry a little, and then soaked it again in the same solution with 600-800 ppm of food.  Of course as far as feeding goes, it should be treated basically like rockwool...inert, as Mr. Wake said.

And for anyone having problem with fungus gnats, etc. I am inclined to believe, that lining the surface of your soil with coco, will keep them at bay.  Keeps surface soil a little drier.


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## Tom 'Green' Thumb (Mar 9, 2007)

In my opinion, pelletized dolomite lime is too slow acting.  What you need is powderized dolomite lime.  I have seen in the gardening center the pelletized kind and I believe this is the most common.  I actually bought mine from the hydro store in a 50 pound bag and it is powderized.  It only cost 20 bucks so I have enough for an army.  If anyone can't find any and needs some PM me.  It might look a little strange though a fine white powder being shipped through the mail.  Oh well, just my 2 cents worth.  Good luck!

TGT


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## shuggy4105 (Mar 9, 2007)

does anyone have any info on the "time" to take effect in respect of peletised to powdered/granules? (granulated garden lime,i have):bong2: :stoned:
i remember a post (i beleive it was "Elephant man and Hick")saying it can take up to 2 years for lime to move 2" through soil! this blew me away man.


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## Elephant Man (Mar 9, 2007)

Coffee grinders are a must for all pelletized stuff.  Works a mint on alfalfa pellets (rabbit food), peruvian seabird guano, etc.  I use oyster shell for ph, my lime is just a bonus.  Oyster shell is partially micronized and is probably better suited for indoor container growing.  But you could try crushing yours or grinding it.  Some people I have read about actually boil time release dry chemical ferts to save money .

I am learning all the time, but basically, I reuse my soil and I agree, some of this stuff like dolomitic and guano, greensand probably come into play on future grows.


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Mar 10, 2007)

If ANYONE needs any kind of help with the coco I will be more than willing to help.
I made the switch from reg soil to my coco based mix, and i never looked back.. only problem I have EVER had is you can UNDERFEED with coco..that's it...

I had one underfeeding issue one time, and after that never again...if you want any help i am here... coco beats peat  any day of the week...!


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## Elephant Man (Mar 10, 2007)

Mr.Wakenbake said:
			
		

> If ANYONE needs any kind of help with the coco I will be more than willing to help.
> I made the switch from reg soil to my coco based mix, and i never looked back.. only problem I have EVER had is you can UNDERFEED with coco..that's it...
> 
> I had one underfeeding issue one time, and after that never again...if you want any help i am here... coco beats peat any day of the week...!


 
I am interested.  I scratched the 100% coir thing and now I am mixing it in.  The more I wander the net the more I see soilmixes very similar to mine, but I will never stop looking. 

I know there is not an organics section as of now, but please, post something up somewhere...a journal or something.  I would like a peak at your mix.  And no worries on uncommon ingredients either, I have a ton of dirt and everything from hair to banana peels has found it's way in there.  

Thanks brother, keep growing, sharing, learning....and spreading the good word, fellow 'Organic Mechanic'.:aok:

Eman:ccc:


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