# Do you trim any fan leaves?



## bud88 (Sep 2, 2014)

I was looking over my girls this evening under green light and noticed that the growth is super thick in area's   I have a bunch of fan leaves that are blocking the sunlight to flowers...I know that the fan leaves are an important part of the process but, wouldn't it be beneficial to clip off a few here and there to get more light penetration? 








Fist grow ever....

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=68799


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## ston-loc (Sep 2, 2014)

NO, buds do not need light. Buds feed off of the plant, and the plant, ie fan leaves are what soak in the light... I clean up my undercarriage, and will pluck an occasional leaf with pm or more than half yellow and dead, but never cut off fans in thought that light will be better used... Just my .02


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 2, 2014)

Huh.. I just learned something. 


I thought the buds grew from the light, hence your lower buds being way more underdeveloped than your top buds. If they grew just from the fan leaves, wouldn't the bottom stuff be just as large / strong? 

I'm not doubting this by any means, I'm just asking more into the process behind it. I thought the leaves(mostly sugar leaves) were the ones that absorbed the lights.. the sugar leaf on the buds themselves.


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## Kindbud (Sep 2, 2014)

i never remove fan leaves i let em drop on their own Jmo


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 2, 2014)

I will remove lower stuff and up, that is 40-60% yellow. I will also remove a few green ones here and there if they cover a bud site. I will not remove many green ones at one time, as to not shock the plant. I'm under the impression that the "sugar leaves" absorb energy for the bud site.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 2, 2014)

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Huh.. I just learned something.
> 
> 
> I thought the buds grew from the light, hence your lower buds being way more underdeveloped than your top buds. If they grew just from the fan leafs, wouldn't the bottom stuff be just as large / strong?
> ...


 
 Basically, the fan leaves are the places that virtually all the photosynthesis takes place.  While all green parts of the plants are involved with photosynthesis, the majority of it takes place in the large fan leaves and not the sugar leaves or the buds.  And as we know, photosynthesis is what turns the light, water, and nutrients into THC and other cannabinoids.  I believe that the upper buds grow better because the fan leaves that feed the buds are closer to the light.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 2, 2014)

Surely makes sense THG, thanks for that  Just thinking that the sugar leaves would contribute to bud growth. Ok, I'll start trying to not pull green leaves that are covering a bud site. Maybe it will help in the long run. Cheers you all


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## MR1 (Sep 2, 2014)

I do my best to move the fan leaves out of the way but if they are covering too many buds off they come.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 2, 2014)

> I do my best to move the fan leaves out of the way but if they are covering too many buds off they come.



Hmm.. ok, a fellow horticulturist that thinks like i do! Yeah, I do this as well. If I can't tuck the leaf to the side away from the bud site, I will pluck it carefully. I won't take more than 3-5 in a few day period.


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## MR1 (Sep 2, 2014)

Yes Fang I do trim but as little as possible. Like you said only a leaf or two at a time but moving them out of the way is my first choice.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 2, 2014)

Oh absolutely. I've even super cropped a fan leaf in the past lol.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Sep 2, 2014)

Moving a fan leaf under a bud believing that the bud will benefit from the light is counterproductive.  Truly guys, virtually NO photosynthesis takes place in the bud--only green parts of the plant photosynthesize.


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## MR1 (Sep 2, 2014)

I just don't like the way the buds look when they receive very little light, very light colored, not as nice looking as the ones that get light.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 2, 2014)

MR1 said:


> I just don't like the way the buds look when they receive very little light, very light colored, not as nice looking as the ones that get light.



Again, I very much see this too. Also, aren't the sugar leaves directly related to the buds and considered "green parts"?  

Only 1 1/2 years in, and I still feel like a noob at times hah


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## ston-loc (Sep 2, 2014)

The leaves, sugar and fan supply energy to the buds. Fans have way more surface area to absorb more light though. And the energy distributed would most likely supply the buds in the area. Leaves up top getting the most light, supplying buds up top. Shaded leaves down inside and low, supplying lower buds that don't seem to bulk up. Just my .02, but makes sense to me.


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## buddogmutt (Sep 2, 2014)

............. 

View attachment image.jpg


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## bud88 (Sep 2, 2014)

I have created a debate.....lol.......But I too learned some more in this thread!! Guess I am leaving the stem that has two fan leaves and a bud growing under the canopy after all.....


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## Hackerman (Sep 2, 2014)

OK, my turn. I'll mess it all up. My logic always messes everything up. LMAO

I know that science says that the leaves process the light and the buds eat from the leaves and blah blah. And, I don't deny it. How can you, it's science fact.

Still, I have a plant right now (and have had many in the past) that says different.

I will get a pic tomorrow if I can get a nice clear one to show what I mean. But, here's what it is...

My plants often (and have this time) grown higher than the light. Rather than train them, I have always just let them grow past the light. Like we all know, light on the lower leaves will feed the bud on top.

Not so here, or in my past experience.

The part of the cola that is growing directly under the light is definitely plumper, fuller and frostier than the top part of the cola which has grown past the light and does not get direct light.

If I can get a close-up shot you'll clearly see how the portion of the cola that's in direct light is bigger and better than the part of the cola which is not in direct light.

I'll try to get a close-up pic tomorrow but this pic shows a little about what I am saying. You can see how the cola has passed the light hood and is no longer in direct light.

I found this to sometimes be true with the Sativas that I grew for years. The cola top was still good, just not as good as what was right below it and in direct light.

So, buds that get direct light and are not shaded by other leaves (or the light hood) grow bigger, plumper and frostier. 

Just coincidence? I don't think so.  

View attachment kushmother082614-1.jpg


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## ston-loc (Sep 3, 2014)

The leaves on the cola that have passed the light are not in the light. Leaves aren't feeding colas on the opposite side of the plant in my opinion. So if the cola and it's leaves aren't in direct light, you get the results you're describing.


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## Hackerman (Sep 3, 2014)

In this case, the leaves are not feeding the cola even 1/4 inch from it. You can almost see a line where the frosty, plump stops. Right at the shade line.

So, if a bottom branch has a bud on it and it is shaded by the adjacent leaf, the bud would be bigger if it was not in the shade of the leaf, right?


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## bud88 (Sep 3, 2014)

If this is the case then in order to assure light to everything.  Employing LST should be the way to go? Just a newbie's thought.... 
  Was the plant that passed the light topped? I was reading somewhere(cant remember where, could have been High TImes) that if you have a plant that is a grower you should flip her sooner. Obviously this will hurt the yield...so it isnt the perfect answer...


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## Hackerman (Sep 3, 2014)

You are right, LST is probably the best way to go. Probably why so many people do it. 

I have developed a style that works for me over the decades. And, I am challenging that style every day with the new things I learn here. Soon, I may have a new style.

It's always good to experiment and see what works best for you, your room, your lifestyle and your preference.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 3, 2014)

Yes, LST or at least "exposing more node sites to the main light" is definitely extremely effective! 

@ Hackerman: Mannnn, start on some training techniques!  Get those mains, and as many nodes under that light cover. Matter of fact, it's looking like you're under lit for the size of your grow area sir  You seem to need another light fixture to help your light footprint. 

Hackerman makes the point though, directly, that if  bud is covered by a leaf it only seems relevant to tuck, cut, snip, move.. something. If I don't do those things, the bud underneath will be light green / yellowish and not very developed.


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## Hackerman (Sep 3, 2014)

What I really need to do is build a bigger room with a taller ceiling. LOL

This room is rectangular. I only use 4x4 for growing. The room is 4x6. The other 2 feet is for me. LOL I have a little stool there and I sit and talk to my girls. LOL

That area also holds the fans and some tools and whatever else I use in the room. Plenty of room for fans and shelves. Has worked out great for years.

And, just yesterday, I was looking at how nicely that room would adapt to 2 lights. LMAO

I hated my 1000w light in this room but 2, 600w lights would give me some incredible coverage. LOL Or, I was thinking about a shuttle.

I am totally changing my style of growing since I came to MP so I don't know, for sure, what I will end up with.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 3, 2014)

You'll change everything for the better I'm quite sure. This place made me who I am today, now coupled with personal experience and any other "findings"   

I run two 600's in each of my 4.5 x 4.5 Sun Huts. I used to run only 1 600 in each.. the difference? Amazing!! The density of the buds has tripled, and I mean TRIPLED since doing this. The coverage is now the entire tent, and I worry less about "what's under the light" because the entire tent is lit very well. I had nearly no issues with light bleaching.. the only issue I ever had was getting a bud to close to the lights. But it happened in 3rd week flower and I just tucked the cola over a bit, problem solved. That plant ended up giving me 7.8 oz's that run, and had 3 other roommates. 

Seems you're just going to refine what you do here Hackerman, I only started in March of 2013, and I would say I'm rather far along in experience and knowledge. I spent 8-12 hours *nearly* everyday in the first 3 months just absorbing and retaining as much knowledge as possible. I would watch videos and read things 2-4 times over again just to make sure the knowledge would stick. 

Knowledge is power, and to seek no knowledge means no want to strengthen ones self with knowledge. Good to see you seeking and even dropping some knowledge on others in some threads. Cheers! :aok:


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## Kindbud (Sep 3, 2014)

buds dont absorb light leafs do moving or removing a leaf to give a bud more light just is a waste just my 2 cents


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## Kindbud (Sep 3, 2014)

oh and i see alot of talk about indoor this is outdoor two totally different ball games in my opinion


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 3, 2014)

But ....but.... Sugar Leaves!! hahah  

Yeah, my OCD drives me nuts and I just ... I just have to man. I can't help myself!


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## Kindbud (Sep 3, 2014)

do as u please just stating my opinion from years of od growing


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 3, 2014)

OD *sigh* I sure would love to give that a try. Seems fun  

I think I may have to find a spot for 1 or 2 this next season. 

I love hearing any and all opinions and facts. It's great stuff! :aok:


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## Hackerman (Sep 3, 2014)

Even though my argument is on the side of trimming, I never trim anything unless it's dying.

I move things around and train them a little to maximize my setup but I never trim. 

My argument is more that a bud will be bigger and juicier if it is in direct light rather than not in direct light. Although, I believe it is wrong to trim any leaf that is a working part of the factory, if you can expose the buds to direct light it is better.

LST seems to be the obvious answer here. I have never done it but I have seen it done and it really looks like the way to go.


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## Locked (Sep 3, 2014)

I don't grow outdoors but if I did I would not trim any fan leaves.  I would think the sun has some pretty good penetrating power.    Indoors I do indeed trim fan leaves, especially now that I am all LED in Flower.  I wouldn't recommend it to new growers though.  Jmo.


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## MR1 (Sep 3, 2014)

Should have read better, I leave my outdoor plants alone.


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## ston-loc (Sep 3, 2014)

I clean up the bottoms outdoor still, but not because of the lighting. More air flow, less low bushy stuff risking water splashing on it and getting mold. And way too much popcorny scrap down at the lowest quarter.


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## Riverbuzzrat (Sep 3, 2014)

View attachment ImageUploadedByTapatalk1409800149.734075.jpg
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View attachment ImageUploadedByTapatalk1409800197.281166.jpg
View attachment ImageUploadedByTapatalk1409800228.075498.jpg
 I never trim fan leaves their the life of my plant  !


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## ston-loc (Sep 4, 2014)

That low stuff always goes in this yard. No benefit keeping airy small stuff 

View attachment image.jpg


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## Mr.420 (Sep 10, 2014)

Ok My outdoor lady is about 6' each branch is loaded with flowers that are getting bulk I noticed that the large fan leaves toward the bottom are the first to start dying off, this I think is normal? my worry is that even on sunny days she only gets a half a day of sunshine because there is a tree that eventually blocks the sun. The plant is on a plant dolly that sits on my patio, I'm wondering if I should bring her indoors and put her under HPS to finish? We usually get a killing frost in mid to late oct. Peace, Mr.420


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## Hackerman (Sep 10, 2014)

Many, if not most pot plants (especially Sativa strains) can have bottom leaves that yellow and fall off during flowing. If the rest of the plant looks good (especially, new growth) you're probably OK.


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## jonnylorenzo (Sep 10, 2014)

I trim off if they are at least half yellow bc if the leaf is dieing now when you trim it...the nutrition that the leaf was getting gets spread out through the good buds and leaves I say if it starts turning yellow taker down... Its only going to help the plant not harm it.


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 10, 2014)

Yeah, I had a bit of a chuckle as I was plucking my 1/2 - 3/4 yellow fan leaves tonight, as I thought of this thread.


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## Kindbud (Sep 11, 2014)

The leaves still have lots of energy left in them when they are yellowing in flowering when yellowing starts its starts at the bottom because those leaves get little to no sunlight affectivly what the plant is doing is sucking out all the nutrients/energy left in the leaf that is not making energy for the buds and using the nutrients/energy towards bud development so when u pull that yellowing leaf ur doing nothing but pulling energy away from ur bud this is fact for me removing leaves during flowering is in no way doing any good!


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## Dr. Green Fang (Sep 11, 2014)

Kindbud said:


> The leaves still have lots of energy left in them when they are yellowing in flowering when yellowing starts its starts at the bottom because those leaves get little to no sunlight affectivly what the plant is doing is sucking out all the nutrients/energy left in the leaf that is not making energy for the buds and using the nutrients/energy towards bud development so when u pull that yellowing leaf ur doing nothing but pulling energy away from ur bud this is fact for me removing leaves during flowering is in no way doing any good!



Spot on! This is how I *do* actually see it too...

...then my OCD kicks in and I have to pluck. It's a filthy habit, I know lol


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## AluminumMonster (Sep 11, 2014)

bud88 said:


> I was looking over my girls this evening under green light and noticed that the growth is super thick in area's   I have a bunch of fan leaves that are blocking the sunlight to flowers...I know that the fan leaves are an important part of the process but, wouldn't it be beneficial to clip off a few here and there to get more light penetration?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remove lower branches and leaves during the first 2 weeks of flower to eliminate popcorn buds.  Beyond that nothing gets removed unless it falls off by itself.


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## Hackerman (Sep 14, 2014)

While reading some posts about "lollypoping" I got to thinking, these are the same people who posted here and said to never trim fan leaves. Still, most of them cut the entire bottom of their plants off and throw them in the trash.

When someone says you shouldn't trim fan leaves because the plant needs all the green it can get to process photosynthesis, and then they trim away half of the plant and throw it away, how can they justify feeling both ways. Seems like the same thing to me.

I don't meant to start a fight but I would like to hear opinions.

One thing that I can say I have learned is this...... the Sativa strain that I have grown for the past 20 or 30 years takes a whopping SIXTEEN WEEKS to mature. That was the single biggest bummer about this strain.

However, during that time, the bottom buds and popcorn grow and grow and grow. Especially with the incredible penetration I got with that new 1000w light. As I mentioned earlier in one thread, that popcorn added up to almost 1/2 pound on my last harvest of a 4x4 room. It is simply insane to throw that away. 

NOW...... I am growing this Critical Kush and it's in week 6. The breeder says it matures in 55 to 60 days. For sake of conversation, let's say they are right. That means I only have about 2 weeks left. Maybe less since I like to take mine at first sign if amber. The lower buds are very small and not very frosty. Unless they really gain some size quickly, it's almost not even worth the branches being there. Almost. LOL

We'll see.

But, I am certainly beginning to understand why some feel comfortable lollypopping. With a flowering time this short, the stuff never adds up to anything.

Learn learn learn. I love learning new stuff. Thanks,everyone


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## Kindbud (Sep 14, 2014)

Indoors is a lil different then outdoors if wear talking about outdoors their are more reasons to remove lower branches it all depends on the strain ur growing and ur technique meaning lst, topping, filming, natural, etc but man reason I remove lower branches are that outdoor on big plants the bottom buds are usual getting no light due to the plant blocking light to it I remove bottom small branchs for better air flow, they usually lay on the ground after a rain, I have found wear I grow the higher buds never get rot or mold lowest buds usually due...... but im talking about my experience outdoors growing big 7-10 ft plants so their is a little difference from indoor to outdoor but I don't remove anything after flowering starts


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## ston-loc (Sep 14, 2014)

Yup, agree with what kind said


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## Hackerman (Sep 14, 2014)

I can see outdoor growers keeping it off the ground and out of moisture, bugs and general ground contact. I do the same with my bushes and shrubs outdoors.

But, indoor growers cutting off half the plant ??????

Still, watching these Critical Kush plants, I am beginning to understand more every day. We'll see how much popcorn I get. Definitely not going to be like my 16 week Sativas.


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