# the latest in LED technology?



## ross (Feb 8, 2010)

for the past couple years ive heard people say LED technology is the thing of the future but it just isnt quite there yet.  does anyone know exactly where it is these days?  whats the latest and greatest?


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## BioDynamic (Feb 9, 2010)

ross said:
			
		

> for the past couple years ive heard people say LED technology is the thing of the future but it just isnt quite there yet.  does anyone know exactly where it is these days?  whats the latest and greatest?



Simply...

LED's are in the 6th generation of stock production. High-power LED's are different and a lot more expensive. BUYER BEWARE: 90%+ of the LED's on the market are knockoffs.

You do not want to use LED's as a main source light for Flowering. If you supplement your regular flower lights with 660nm LED's then it'll be beneficial, but for the most part, DO NOT flowering with LED's. 
Practice with Vegging. Vegging, .., LED's develop and establish large and very healthy rhizospheres. People talk a lot about other benefits, but I was only truly amazed by its capacity to yield such healthy roots, which I seen in one of my earlier aeroponic set ups. The very reason why I got into using LED's. 

If you have a large operation, you are going to have to look into high power LED's. (Expensive) If you have a smaller op going on, if you do things right LED's can be quite beneficial. You have to learn correct combinations of frequencies along with ratios when using monochromatic light.  Along with good quality LED's. And make many other adjustments in the grow room and schedules in order to have the entirety of the op conform together.  ((I can give you more detailed information on all that if you ever begin to decide to use them))

LED fixtures have been known to lack in canopy penetration. But new designs, are currently solving that problem. 
_Search >>> LED Canopy lights, Droplights, Stemlights  (Veg600, r625, r90, M80, m90, Droplight 900, .  If you search youtube you can see grow ops performed with these lights. Among others._


If anything, just experiment with vegging. That way you aren't sacrificing anything. Mind you, if you still throw in other lights, it's even better. Mixing different lights is most beneficial

I think I might be forgetting to say something..


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## leafminer (Feb 9, 2010)

:goodposting:


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## BioDynamic (Feb 9, 2010)

Some additional info I figured might be of some use or interest to someone...

New types of LED technologies are already out in prototype. Stuff, like LED chips (as in something like a computer chip), among other.
They (researchers) are all over the place with this technology.  Everything, in every market (tv's, automotive industry, agriculture industry, space travel, street lights, computers, Ipods, cell phone industries, flash lights, all house hold appliances..etc) has changed into LED's. They are replacing everything, leading the way into new technologies, and also advancing faster than most technologies. <<<Key point, LED's are evolving rapidly. It's only a matter of time before they meet all the needs of a grower.

LED's are the future because it is one of the major fads in the lighting industry, still in its primitive stages, with many revolutions within only a couple years. And now, there's a lot more attention and dedication going into them.  You ever hear of  *The Story of Blue Light   &   The Synthesis of Blue Light ... Blue LEDs & the Blue Laser ?* Interesting read, 
>>>  h*XX*p://www.cardboardillusions.com/strange_blue_light.php


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## ross (Feb 9, 2010)

good info you seem really knowledgeable on the subject.  when do you think LEDs will be able to be used for flowering?


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## BioDynamic (Feb 25, 2010)

ross said:
			
		

> good info you seem really knowledgeable on the subject.  when do you think LEDs will be able to be used for flowering?





Well, ...exact date is ambiguous, but rather soon. I'm going to post some links about LED's from research institutes and journals (but posted on one site), it's not exactly on flowering with LED's but it's to help paint a picture  where this technology is at and why this technology is changing the face of the planet.   There isn't just LED's, there are also OLED's  (O= organic)
Keep in mind, most don't view LED's or research them for growing plants, but the advancement in the technology is what you need to pay attention to.  LED's being of a single wave frequency is why flowering is so hard.  When the sun sets and rises, ..and when the end of summer comes, ..the tilt of the earth causes the far red radiation of the sun's rays to penetrate the earth's atmosphere, and trigger the fr and pfr phytochrome response (flowering).  LED's (red), ..only go up to I've seen personally 660nm and some say they have 666nm.  Which is enough to BOOSt the flowering potential of other flowering lights.  Until LED's can emit a radiation instead of a single wave frequency, it won't do much as a main source of light for budding.   

HOwever, they do have Infrared LED's and Ultraviolet LED's...  And the new advancements, most likely suggest that This technology will be NEEDED gor the agricultural industry, and therefore, will be made in some sort of lamps or maybe a combination, ...or ..maybe just create an LED that actually emits that fr radiation.   My guess will be we will see the greatest changes , within the next 1-3 years.  


h*XX*p://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/06/090615100401.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070924094936.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/01/080109083914.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090322154424.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/02/080228205953.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/04/070416221943.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060412230530.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/05/070517063036.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/12/081223121129.htm

hXXp://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060401110202.htm


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## legalize_freedom (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for the info Bio!  Interesting stuff.  I have a question for you, or anyone for that matter.  I ordered some new HPS lamps from 1000 bulbs.com and they screwed up my order, sending me someone elses stuff.  They are in the process of makeing it right...re-sending what I ordered, but they told me to just go ahead and keep this stuff they sent me, saying that it wasn't worth the cost of re-shipping it back to them.  I know that halogen lights are usually no good for growing but I have (6) tiny (m-15) Ushio Halogen lights with reflectors, they are about a 3" diameter, and they also sent me (4)  clear 60w tubular bulbs, that screw into a regular light socket.  I'm thinking that this stuff is probably just junk, I mean the 60w long bulbs I could use in regualr lamps...do ya'll think I would get any benefit from these small halogens if I were to make like a sort of panel out of them...or will they only add heat?  Like I said they are probably not good for anything that I would use them for....but I just wondered.


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## ishnish (Feb 25, 2010)

Thanks for the info, BioD.
... my head hurts a bit, but very interesting.


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## leafminer (Feb 25, 2010)

LF: No. They are a bit more efficient than old tungsten lamps but not by much. Waste of money on the electric bill. My mercury vapour lamp has a self-ballast inside it that's basically a halogen bulb. Even though it is a lot more efficient than a halogen bulb it still only puts out 10K lumens for 450 watts! Which is why I don't use it. Except for lighting the patio for table-tennis.


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## BioDynamic (Feb 25, 2010)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info Bio!  Interesting stuff.  I have a question for you, or anyone for that matter.  I ordered some new HPS lamps from 1000 bulbs.com and they screwed up my order, sending me someone elses stuff.  They are in the process of makeing it right...re-sending what I ordered, but they told me to just go ahead and keep this stuff they sent me, saying that it wasn't worth the cost of re-shipping it back to them.  I know that halogen lights are usually no good for growing but I have (6) tiny (m-15) Ushio Halogen lights with reflectors, they are about a 3" diameter, and they also sent me (4)  clear 60w tubular bulbs, that screw into a regular light socket.  I'm thinking that this stuff is probably just junk, I mean the 60w long bulbs I could use in regualr lamps...do ya'll think I would get any benefit from these small halogens if I were to make like a sort of panel out of them...or will they only add heat?  Like I said they are probably not good for anything that I would use them for....but I just wondered.





Well ...Wouldn't be the greatest that's for sure.  But Depending on the plant stage, ...You will get some benefits.    Depending on the halogen too....Some produce a CLEAN white light at a colour temperature of about 3500°K, extending into the blue and ultraviolet part of the spectrum which is moderately hazardous to eyes and skin during prolonged exposure. 
but will mimic something close to a full spectrum. 
ANd some are in the red zone of light emission, production of infra-red in the form of radiant heat which, at close range, may scorch foliage. It is inadvisable to stare at unfiltered quartz halogen lamps as their high filament brightness, heat and ultraviolet emission may cause irreversible eye-damage.  But you are right they do produce alot of wasted light into heat ...ALSO, the too much UV from Halogens can kill a plant, but do understand UV light has benefits to plants.  I use UV LED's instead of other lights.


The tubular lights I don't think you'd have too much to worry about, and you might as well use them until your new sets come in.

Just be careful


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## BioDynamic (Feb 25, 2010)

leafminer said:
			
		

> LF: No. They are a bit more efficient than old tungsten lamps but not by much. Waste of money on the electric bill. My mercury vapour lamp has a self-ballast inside it that's basically a halogen bulb. Even though it is a lot more efficient than a halogen bulb it still only puts out 10K lumens for 450 watts! Which is why I don't use it. Except for lighting the patio for table-tennis.





YOU USE MERCURY VAPOUR???   I have never met anyone who uses those, ...Could you hook me up with some experience info on that?  I know and understand the technology, but I'd like to know how well they work on the physiology of your plants


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## ishnish (Feb 25, 2010)

leafminer said:
			
		

> Which is why I don't use it. Except for lighting the patio for table-tennis.


:bong1:


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## BBFan (Feb 25, 2010)

BioDynamic said:
			
		

> YOU USE MERCURY VAPOUR??? I have never met anyone who uses those, ...Could you hook me up with some experience info on that? I know and understand the technology, but I'd like to know how well they work on the physiology of your plants


 
I use self-ballasted mercury vapor too!  But it's actually a uvb reptile lamp.  Gives a good dose of uvb!  My first test run using it produced some very potent product- significantly more potent than the clones from the same plant grown in otherwise exact similar conditions (based on some recent double-blind testing).


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## leafminer (Feb 26, 2010)

BBFan I must admit I am aware of its high UVB output and I have been seriously considering using it during the last stage of flower. I guess if I only ran it for say the last two weeks it would not be too expensive. I was thinking of using it to blast say two plants with an average of 5K lumens each. Have you noticed the size of the red spectrum on these? That's coming from the halogen lamp I assume.


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## zem (Feb 26, 2010)

so how long would it be until we can grow using say 100watts of LED that gives us similar results as 400w HPS? i heard that LED's could give more light with much less watts?


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## lTizZLel (Feb 26, 2010)

in for more info...interested in the subject hahaa


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## BioDynamic (Feb 26, 2010)

zem said:
			
		

> so how long would it be until we can grow using say 100watts of LED that gives us similar results as 400w HPS? i heard that LED's could give more light with much less watts?


 



I have found nothing better for vegging than LED's.  The rhizosphere of LEd's compared to any HID, or fluor. is very impressive.  
*BUT BUT BUT* ..you need the right LED's (model,make,and not a knockoff), the right frequencies, and A proper combination/ration of different frequencies. I have posted many post about that actually, but I couldn't tell you where, this place is huge. But if you need more info because you are deciding to try them out I can point you in every right direction. 

 I would only suggest using them for vegging though, not only do you not lose out on anything, but you will gain experience, and you know.you'll see everything for yourself.  

I had to transplant every 2 weeks when I used soil method, When I started with LED's i used a cup, not even 2 weeks and roots were at the bottom, I switched to a 4L jug, not even 2 weeks and my roots were being bound. I switched to a, I think it's 3 gallon, and again, not even 2 weeks before my roots being bound again. LArger roots = larger yield. I'm sure HID's are speedy like that too, ...but the size of the rhizosphere is much much larger. How do I know for sure? I grew aeroponic quite a few times and seen it first hand. That's the reason why I became a huge fan.

  LED's create very healthy roots, and plants. There is really no downside except flowering.  no heat sign. lasts 50 000 - 100 000 hours, 75%+ decline in bill costs and water and nutrient usage (OH YES, be warned people kill their plants easily because they over feed and water when first switching, I only have to feed my plant once or twice a week at max, , but I also through in a few other lighting technologies because I enjoy getting the benefit of all lights, for best results, so sometimes it's 3x a week.

But you are most likely referring to *when can you flower* with LED's that will equal  HID's.  And My guess would be sometime within the next 1-3 years we'll see models out for enhanced flowering.  The models they have out now are 660nm or 666nm, which really boosts flowering WHEN YOU ARE USING OTHER FLOWERING LIGHTS, ...But don't have the radiation it takes to make plants really bloom, like you see with HID's.   If I were to use LED's for flowering, and wanted to boost without a lot of money I'd through in some incandescents, or something with far-red radiation to give what the LED's are lacking. Well to be honest I wouldn't use them as a main source of flowering light at all


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## BioDynamic (Feb 26, 2010)

ishnish said:
			
		

> Thanks for the info, BioD.
> ... my head hurts a bit, but very interesting.


 

Hahaha, You are very welcome!!!  You too LEGAL.  I can be very over-whelming with information, i know, but it's the only way I am. WHat I show you guys or present is absolutely nothing compared to what I have in store lol. Just trying not to be a bother anymore.


And I hope nobody minds all the links I have posted, and will be posting, but it's better if you guys read from real science journals, and research institutes, etc.. so people know I'm not just running my mouth about stuff and that my sources are, well, real, and 'top of the line'. That and it saves me from plagerism and talking so damn much (even though I already probably talk too much for most people.)


I just can't wait to start my new job coming up, so I can re-order everything, and DO my grow journal for you guys. I think I'll finally be respected after that.


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## umbra (Feb 26, 2010)

While LEDS have always held promise, there is a lack of real world demonstrated grows with comparable results to HID. I have mentioned plasma sulfur lights as well. Again a real lack of real world grows. The only documented cannabis grow with a plasma sulfur lamp is at sannie's site. Coincidentally, he using LEDS as supplemental lighting with remarkable results.

hxxps://www.opengrow.com/index.php?showtopic=40312&hl=sulfur%20plasma&st=0


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## BioDynamic (Feb 26, 2010)

BBFan said:
			
		

> I use self-ballasted mercury vapor too! But it's actually a uvb reptile lamp. Gives a good dose of uvb! My first test run using it produced some very potent product- significantly more potent than the clones from the same plant grown in otherwise exact similar conditions (based on some recent double-blind testing).


 


I'm quite awar of the unique outcomes UV does to a plant, I actually bought an LED setup that's only UV.  I'm sure it's not the same as UV-a with UV-b, etc, ..but I'm working on some experiments. But I do not think it'll be anything to really work with  because it's lacking a lot

>ANYWAY ..i'm giong to babble for a second hope you dont mind ... 

I'm not too in-depth with UV like other (*electro-culture, magnetism* <<  These 2 here are very important and almost nobody realizes why..) .. does anyone know about photosynthesis??? ANd I mean the science part?
.K i just want to throw this in real quick I think I'll start a thread somtime about all this, but I just want to bring this up because ...I've ben going crazy about it, I have messaged some scientists at the university of cambridge and a few other places about this and haven't gotten a reply, don't know why.  (Does anyone know Aubrey de Grey? World's leading scientist for Bio-Medical Gerontology, .He's a friend of mine we've been talking for 6 years, He's on my facebook, my e-mail etc (I'm going school for Bio-Med-Ger.) That's why I need my Biochemistry degree and I beleive plants are the key to all life on earth and also the key to that entire science. Plants and water. (Hence my botany degree, and why I talk about water-structuring science a lot)


k well...  

The equation for photosynthesis (the one thats in all the college and university text  books ....IS WRONG.)   ANd I know people are giong to sya "what you think you are a genius and you're right and the scientists are wrong" blah blah blah .....and YES,...that is right, that is what I am saying (not I'm a genius, but they are wrong.)

I am going for my masters of science in biochemistry adn Botany (first) ,...and I know, I'm right because ..it's just plain common sense and I was born for this....I know people will think well if I can figure it out someone else must have and it must not be true but here's the thing (apologies again for this nonsense and babble)


the main equation for photosynthesis is (there's more than one ebcause there's more than one type of photosynthesis but, ..still same fundamentals. general equation is as follows:

2n Co2 + 2n H2O + photons = 2(CH2O)_n_ + n O2 + 2n A

Carbon dioxide + electron donor + photonic (lihgt) energy = carbohydrate + oxygen + oxidized electron donor


Now, ..what this is saying (in all universities etc)  is *Light alone* breaks down Carbon dioxide and water inside the plant (photosynthesis's main source of power) ...Now, ..when I was in grade 12 and studying this, ..I seen the problem right away.  *THEY SAY* LIGHT is enough or the only thing thats breaking down water and carbon dioxide ...*THAT IS THE FALLACY*!!!  It's not true. How can I prove it? SImple ...You go outside and there is Carbon Dioxide and water on Earth right?  Well if light was the only FORCE that breaks down water and carbon ina plant, ..then there WOULD BE NO WATER OR DIOXIDE ON EARTH ..whatsoever. Because the light would break it down, and it'd be gone. You see the mistake? Conventional wisdom still has a long way to go.  Hope nobody is rolling their eyes because it was only recently they discovered there is more than one type of photosynthesis. (LOL) ..yes, ..no scientis in the world fully understands Photosynthesis. And if they just discovered there's more than one, ..then ..they are far from the exact truth.

*Magnetism and electicity AND LIGHT* ...are the 3 forces of photosynthesis that breaks down water (ever heard of hydrolisis?) .  This is why when you add electricity or paramagnetic soil , rock, or volcanic ash to soil, ...or even magnetite/loadstone, ...plants flourish like crazy.  Magnetism and electricty are always available to plants from the earth, but not very strong. None of us or plants would exist without magnetism light and electricity.  It's not one force it's the trinity.

SO when people say electro--culture and magnetism is just a bunch of babble ...  and doesn't work, ...first i can tell they have no education (in that department , nt calling anyone stupid), NO EXPERIENCE in using it <<<That's the key ...and etc.   ...Now I do not know why this isn't all being changed, but I know damn well smoeday,..the entire equation is going to be re-written, ...and etc etc etc ..ya I'll stop talking now lol.  Thanks for listening if anyone did.

But if anyone has anything anti-podean to say to this , please please do say something. Most of the time I don't enjoy it, but this is definitely worth it.


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## BioDynamic (Feb 26, 2010)

umbra said:
			
		

> While LEDS have always held promise, there is a lack of real world demonstrated grows with comparable results to HID. I have mentioned plasma sulfur lights as well. Again a real lack of real world grows. The only documented cannabis grow with a plasma sulfur lamp is at sannie's site. Coincidentally, he using LEDS as supplemental lighting with remarkable results.
> 
> hxxps://www.opengrow.com/index.php?showtopic=40312&hl=sulfur%20plasma&st=0


 

Those plasma sulphur lights , hold much promise, it's the closest thing to sunlight we have so far, but...what was it..I have some stuff on here about it...NASA's research on it, ...mumm...those lights need a magnetic shield or soemthing of that nature, the bulbs need to be enclosed in a metal or magnetic (forget and not digging) shield, because it emits something (EM?)  and has a lot of effects on other machines, and even humans. (we are biological machines afterall)  ....I've watched a couple videos of grow rooms with it and the plants looked amazing ... but if you need some sort of shield for your light so it doesn't do certain things I'd just wait until the next advancement in the technology


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## umbra (Feb 26, 2010)

there are 2 types. the grid is to retain microwave energy, since it is a plasma discharge. the type that sannie is using does not use that technology.


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## BioDynamic (Feb 26, 2010)

umbra said:
			
		

> there are 2 types. the grid is to retain microwave energy, since it is a plasma discharge. the type that sannie is using does not use that technology.


 

Oh so there is more than one make of the  S.Plasma light out now?  Awesome, didn't realize it had come out yet, thanks for the heads up, Appreciate it


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## leafminer (Feb 26, 2010)

Aha. I get the picture.
If you want to see plasma in action:
Get a candle stub and stick it to the centre of a saucer. Light it and place in the centre of the microwave oven. Place a small cup of water on one side to give the microwave oven a 'load' to work on. (Avoids damage)
Then start the oven.
Wow.
Not recommended for more than 5 seconds or so.


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## leafminer (Feb 26, 2010)

I checked out his grow. At first I thought, this guy has really got it worked out. Then I looked a little more deeply. The lamp he is using is 14,000 lumens and he's got it miles away from the 4 plants. You can see very clearly in the later photos that the fan leaves are going yellow and dropping off and other leaves are already looking washed-out.

The good thing about these lamps is the spectral output, is really like the sun.
Tends to reinforce my own beliefs; I prefer to use mixed spectrum lighting for all stages of growth.

I have attached a chart that I discovered which is a great resource for those who want to compare lamp efficiencies.

[URL="hXXp://www.luxim.com/[/URL]

One more thing. Look at that chart. CERAMIC METAL HALIDE. Where and how much? The specifications look really really good! High colour temp, good efficiency.


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## Relentless999 (Feb 26, 2010)

ive been seeing a good bit of impressive grows on icmag using the hydro led lights.. 63w, 126, 205, and 345 i believe.. but they arent cheap!


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## ledtester (Mar 2, 2010)

umbra said:
			
		

> While LEDS have always held promise, there is a lack of real world demonstrated grows with comparable results to HID. I have mentioned plasma sulfur lights as well. Again a real lack of real world grows. The only documented cannabis grow with a plasma sulfur lamp is at sannie's site. Coincidentally, he using LEDS as supplemental lighting with remarkable results.


 
I've done a comparisonof 378w of LED against 1000 HPS. Harvest was 993grs for HPS and 339 for the LED. LED panels are only good for micro grows where ventilation is a problem. I see no other reason to waste your money not even for vegging since your paying approx. 10x for every watt.
ALL manufactures claims are bogus including the heat factor and only there to justify the huge prices.
Look around and you'll never see a LED grow out produce a HID,,,NEVER!


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## ledtester (Mar 2, 2010)

Relentless999 said:
			
		

> ive been seeing a good bit of impressive grows on icmag using the hydro led lights.. 63w, 126, 205, and 345 i believe.. but they arent cheap!


Impressive in what sense? The only reason they are impressive is because you haven't seen what a 63,126w,205, 345w HID looks like beside it.

Here's a $200 fluro grow that's as good if not better then any of those!
sorry can't post the url but look this up at icmag....
*1024 Watt Fluro Grow Dubphiend*

*Less then 500w of fluros will beat those LED's but everyone has to have the latest and greatest. And then there's what I call the Christopher Columbus Complex. That's when we look around and see how crap LED's are doing in someone else's hands and we think we are the ones that are going to break the LED code and get them to produce what the manuf. claims. Which of course is never going to happen since the LED's would have to produce 3 grams/ watt to do that.*


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## leafminer (Mar 2, 2010)

As we engineers say:
"You can't kid metal"


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