# Creating Feminized Seeds - The Right Way



## THCPezDispenser

The concept of feminized seeds fascinates me, as well as having many practical applications to be able to create them yourself. I personally am very sporatic as to when I can have a grow going, so having the ability to start a small grow whenever I want without having to plant seeds and sex multiple plants or without having to maintain a clone mother and yet still be self sufficent appeals to me.

Below is my mental consolidation of the information I have uncovered in regards to making feminized seeds correctly, and hopefully this outlines how the members here can try making them for themselves. To be clear, I am in the process of doing this, and the article I have put together below is not based on experience but rather research. A peer review from the group will hopefully find any flaws in my logic or statements I have made, but I feel the article I have put together is based on generally accepted principles. You be the judge  

*Background &#8211; Marijuana Reproduction*

First, some background. Marijuana is what is known as a gonochorist reproducer, meaning it has two distinct sexes of individuals (both male and female), similar to humans. This is uncommon in the plant world, where most flowering organisms are predominately hermaphrodite, having both male and female reproductive structures on the same plant. A look at a typical daylily clearly illustrates this as the female pistil is surrounded by male pollen producing stamen.

In the world of marijuana cultivation hermaphrodites do exist. While not the natural state of the plant, a hermaphrodite (or &#8220;hermie&#8221; as they are colloquially known), is a marijuana plant that produces both male & female flowers. This is a very undesirable characteristic in the context of growing marijuana for the harvesting of THC as a hermie can ruin an entire crop of what would have been sensimilla female buds due to pollen distribution in the growing environment. The pollen will fertilize any female flowers that it lands on, thus dramatically reducing the THC contents of the bud as the female plant redirects its energy from producing sticky THC to catch pollen to seed production, which have no appreciable THC content.

The hermie genetic trait is thought to be a survival characteristic of marijuana. It is a reaction to poor growing conditions where a female plant &#8220;feels&#8221; that there is a poor chance of a natural fertilization of its buds by an external male. As a result, the plant will take the dramatic emergency measure of producing both male & female flowers in a last ditch effort to reproduce itself.

Biochemically, a marijuana plant carrying the gene for this behavior is able to invoke this survival reaction through internally elevating the levels of gibberellic acid being created by the plant. Gibberellic acid (also called Gibberellin) is a potent naturally occurring growth hormone that regulates various processes of plant development. In some plants (such as grapes) ellevated levels of gibberellic acid can cause an increase in the size of the fruiting structures. The effect on marijuana when levels are elevated is the creation of male flowers on an otherwise female plant.

*How the Sex of a Seed is Determined Genetically*

Plants are either male or female depending on the two-chromosome combination of the X and Y chromosomes. A male carries an X and a Y chromosome (&#8220;XY&#8221, while a female carries two X chromosomes (&#8220;XX&#8221. When pollenization of a female plant occurs, the seeds and how the sex characteristics are determined is based on a simple combination of the two sets of chromosomes:

                Male
                 X  Y
         -----------
Female X | XX XY 
          X | XX XY

From this Mendel Square, you can see that there are 4 possible combinations of the chromosomes from the male and female plant that a seed can inherit, 2 being male (&#8220;XY&#8221 and 2 being female (&#8220;XX&#8221, representing a 50% chance a seed will be male or female. As a side note scientifically this suggests that strategies of producing more female plants from seeds by germinating and vegetating the plant under certain conditions to improve the female:male ratio are ineffective, as the seed&#8217;s sex is predetermined when it is created based on the chromosome distribution outlined above. However, there are known cases of plants being able to alter sex based on environmental conditions, but this is outside the scope of what I am covering here. 

*What is a Feminized Seed?*

From what we have seen above, the definition of a feminized seed is a seed where the sex chromosome combination is guaranteed to be &#8220;XX&#8221;.

It is common in the marijuana seed industry to sell feminized seeds that are simply the result of a hermaphrodite self pollinating. Technically, this is a feminized seed because both &#8220;parents&#8221; are contributing &#8220;XX&#8221;, resulting in seeds that can only have an &#8220;XX&#8221; combination as the &#8220;Y&#8221; chromosome is not in the equation. Pollen of a hermie female still passes &#8220;XX&#8221;, pollen itself is only a chromosome distribution mechanism and will still pass the chromosomes of the plant on which it is produced. In the case of a true male where pollen is naturally produced this is &#8220;XY&#8221;, with a hermaphrodite female plant this is still &#8220;XX&#8221;. Hermie male flowers are a reaction to environmental stress, they do not represent a fundamental rewriting of the plants genetic characteristics.

If the plants resulting from a hermaphrodite-sired seed are not stressed, there is every probability that a healthy female plant will be produced. The mother created seeds without the contribution of a male, thus the male chromosomes are not present in the offspring. The drawback of this method is that the seeds created are also guaranteed to have the hermaphrodite trait passed, resulting in a risk of your garden being destroyed by hermie male flowers spreading pollen and destroying the potency of your crop. Sometimes this manifestation of male flowers is very slight &#8211; only a couple of male flowers hidden within predominantly female buds. However this is still enough pollen being produced in the environment to effectively destroy a harvest.

(Continued...)


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## THCPezDispenser

(Continued...)

*So how do we do this right?*

If you are serious about creating quality feminized seeds, not just any female plant should be used. Ideally, you want to start with a true female mother, who has been proven not to express the hermaphrodite trait under stressful conditions. This is a fairly time-intensive task, however the process itself is fairly simple.

To find a suitable mother, the candidate mother plants need to go through a &#8220;boot camp&#8221; to identify the ones who will not turn hermie under stress. While this step can technically be skipped, if the time and effort is taken to do this you can ensure that the seeds produced from your efforts are the very best females without the risk of losing a crop to a &#8220;raping&#8221; hermie.

Basically, the candidate plants are put under a controlled stress regime to identify plants with the hermaphrodite trait. This can be done with female candidates that have completed the vegative cycle and are ready to be flowered by using the following light schedule:

1) The lights are turned on 12/12 for 10 days 
2) Lights are turned on 24 hours 
3) 12/12 again for 5 days 
4) Lights are turned on 24 hours 
5) 12/12 again for a few weeks 

At the end of this light cycle, plants need to be closely inspected to look for the presence of plants with both male and female flowers. These are then discarded. Any remaining females can be considered to not have the hermie trait, and are suitable for the next step. 

Please note that this may take much iteration using a lot of female candidates to find a true female. It has been reported that Indica strains are less likely to have the hermaphrodite trait, as well as plants having a strong Afghani or Nepalese heritage, so starting with these genetics may be able to reduce the amount of time to find a true female. However this may also exclude your favorite strain so it's something to be aware of.

Once this candidate review process is completed, we now have our mother plant. We have proven through these tests that this plant is not able to produce male flowers through stress, so we need to be able to find another way to produce pollen from this plant. As mentioned earlier, gibberic acid will cause marijuana to create male flowers. We can take advantage of this by topically applying a gibberic acid solution to our mother and artificially causing her to produce male flowers. 

Alcohol soluble 90% Gibberic Acid GA3 Powder is widely available. I have purchased it from eBay and it is fairly inexpensive at under $10 for a small packet. A concentration of 100 (one hundred) PPM (parts per million) is required for invoking marijuana to produce male flowers, so this part is where the math comes in.

1 gram of &#8220;pure&#8221; GA3 powder added to 1 liter of water will produce a concentration of 1000 (one thousand) PPM. Packs are typically sold in this size (a little more than a gram to account for the purity factor so you end up with 1 gram pure, ie 1.11g actual weight x 90% purity = 1g of GA3). Based on this, you will be able to calculate the amount of powder you need to use to create 100 (one hundred) PPM. Based on above, adding the full pack to 10L of water will give you the desired concentration. However, creating 10L of solution is not practical as the solution will only be viable about a week once mixed, and very little of the solution is needed for the actual process described below. So, you will need to pull out your math/chemistry skills to figure out and create the solution concentration you need as the packets come in varying weights and purities. In the end, you need a 100PPM solution to proceed. 

To create male flowers, this solution is then sprayed on a branch of the mother every day for 10 days. This should chemically invoke the plant to produce male flowers, and the pollen can then be collected. Please note that all females are different, and the concentration noted above may not work for all plants, and a stronger concentration will be required. Some females will not react to the solution at all, so this also adds some complexity to the process.

Once you have successfully collected the pollen, you now have &#8220;XX&#8221; pollen that can be used to pollinate a female. If it is used on the mother itself, you will end up with seeds that are genetically very close to the mother, however different phenotypes can be passed to the seeds as not all genetic characteristics of a plant are expressed, and recessive genes may emerge in the resulting offspring. This can be good or bad, but in general the seeds will produce plants showing characteristics very close to the mother.

Regardless, this pollen can be used as you would normally use pollen to create any of the typical crosses, but ideally the target mother has also gone through the stress-test to ensure it does not have the hermaphrodite trait.

So that&#8217;s it! Hope you have enjoyed my little essay on the feminization process, and I hope you find it useful! I look forward to seeing some feminizing grow journals  

Pez


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## papabeach1

so..GA3 solution sprayer and that light cycle to follow, and all that,  gets me a feminized seeds?  

and prevents plants turn to be males too?


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## THCPezDispenser

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> so..GA3 solution sprayer and that light cycle to follow, and all that, gets me a feminized seeds?
> 
> and prevents plants turn to be males too?


 
So the light cycle comes first, this is to weed out the hermies out of your candidates.  Once you find one, then you apply the GA3 to create male flowers on that plant.  With this pollen that is created, you can create proper feminized seeds by fertilizing some of the buds on the same female.  The seeds produced will produce only female plants that will not hermie.


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## canibanol cannonball

stress, hermie, gibberic acid...three things i NEVER want to use/see.
Your post has much more info than others but im sure ive read this topic 20 different times in different posts. As far as i know hermies are bad. stress=herm, herm=herm, G.acid=herm. IMO feminization is harming the plants genetics and will give you unstable herm seeds.
Why dont you just buy the femd seed when you need it? Or better yet grow like nature 1 Male - countless females


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## THCPezDispenser

I'll probably regret responding to this, but I will.



			
				canibanol cannonball said:
			
		

> stress, hermie, gibberic acid...three things i NEVER want to use/see.  ... "G.acid=herm.IMO feminization is harming the plants genetics and will give you unstable herm seeds."


 
So I agree with you on 2 of the 3 items.  I haven't seen anywhere implying that gibberric acid "causes" hermies.  If you have, I would love to read more about it.  It creates male flowers, it doesn't alter genetics to introduce a hermie trait where it didn't exist before.  That stressing process I mentioned is intended to identify and remove hermies from the genetic pool, not introduce them.



			
				canibanol cannonball said:
			
		

> Your post has much more info than others but im sure ive read this topic 20 different times in different posts.


 
Well thank you, that was my goal  



			
				canibanol cannonball said:
			
		

> As far as i know hermies are bad. stress=herm, herm=herm,


 
Maybe I am misreading your response, but the negative connotation makes it sound like you think I am promoting hermies, which I was not.  There was a detailed section on how to identify and get rid of them from your breeding stock through stress testing.  Isn't this a good thing?  I would argue a lot of people have hermies and don't even know it since the stress level is never reached to identify them because of the good care we have learned to provide to the plants.



			
				canibanol cannonball said:
			
		

> Why dont you just buy the femd seed when you need it? Or better yet grow like nature 1 Male - countless females


 
Because I am curious.  Because I like to experiment.  Because I don't believe in not speaking about subjects and exploring them because they are considered taboo when there may be value hidden under the bias.  Because humans like to maipulate nature to it's benefit - White Widow is a creation of man, not nature


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## darksideofoz

Great article! This boot camp seems like an excellent way to maintain a female only population. The only thing that makes me skeptical about this process is any hermaphrodites appearing. What would you say the percentage of a hermaphrodite appearing is per 1000? 

Question; If you were to spray GA3 on a few branches and use that pollen on the same females but on unsprayed parts. Would the offspring's seeds be as vigourous and stable as female 1 pollinating female 2's offspring?


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## papabeach1

let me get this straight.... If I keep one male, and I will have countless of females? and all hermies will disappear? 

I just want to figure how I did has lots of hermies long time ago...
whats best trick to stop them to grow hermies is to have only one male around?


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## Hick

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> let me get this straight.... If I keep one male, and I will have countless of females? and all hermies will disappear?
> 
> I just want to figure how I did has lots of hermies long time ago...
> whats best trick to stop them to grow hermies is to have only one male around?


:doh:...Nothing is so "cut 'n dried" as that. But at least you are not 'selectively' breeding _for_ the hermie tendancy.
  At least THC's post describes the selection process for 'selecting' the proper females for a "chemically" induced staminate flower production.


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## slowmo77

i've ruined whole crops with hermies, so i just find it safer to avoid any thing that might raise my odds of havin them. i like seeds just not in my bud.


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## born2killspam

You should cross the XX pollen with a different decent candidate than it came from..  Recessive traits are statistically more likely to be counter-productive since evolution weeds out crappy dominant traits 3x as easily..


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## THCPezDispenser

darksideofoz said:
			
		

> The only thing that makes me skeptical about this process is any hermaphrodites appearing. What would you say the percentage of a hermaphrodite appearing is per 1000?


 
I'm not sure anyone can answer that.  It really depends on the particular genetics you are working with.  It could be buried in the genetic code and not expressed in a particular plant but passed on to future generations, but this would be the case with any type of breeding.  By applying good artifical selection best practices, you would always remove any hermies in subsequent generations to improve the line.  One thing I haven't found is if the hermie trait is dominant or recessive.  If it is dominant, stressing it to find out it doesn't hermie should mean that any future generations of parents that do not have the hermie trait should mean it is removed from the line.  Recessive would mean that when it is crossed with another plant that also has the recessive gene, some of the offspring would exibit this trait.  Again, this is a general statement to all breeding, not just feminization.



			
				darksideofoz said:
			
		

> Question; If you were to spray GA3 on a few branches and use that pollen on the same females but on unsprayed parts. Would the offspring's seeds be as vigourous and stable as female 1 pollinating female 2's offspring?


 
Typically inbreeding is bad - it would always be a better choice to cross with a different mother than the one you took the pollen from, ideally one which has also been proven not to be a hermie, although a favorite clone mother would still be a better choice than the plant where where pollen came from.


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## THCPezDispenser

slowmo77 said:
			
		

> i've ruined whole crops with hermies, so i just find it safer to avoid any thing that might raise my odds of havin them. i like seeds just not in my bud.


 
So if you are making your own seeds, forgetting the feminization part, the stressing to find a good mother is a concept you can use as well.  It shows you who the good mothers are.  From what I have researched the only thing here I could see that would do something funky with the genetic line is crossing a plant with itself.  It's not natural and not recommended.  Other than that, I don't see anything here that would increase your chances of getting hermies more than any other breeding program.  Someone mentioned the gibberellic acid may, but it is a natural hormone and marijuana is naturally wired to react to it.  I don't believe it would fundamentally alter the genetics passed to the next generation.  It is a hormone, not a mutagen.  (As a side note, it appears that gibberellic acid can actually reverse the effects of environmental mutagens: hxxp://www.springerlink.com/content/v73m02516721026q/)


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## 4u2sm0ke

Thanks THC...great way to find stuff out is to read and then do..I am not at that stage to try and mess with femm seeds..i am expairamenting on breading for the first time..and have enjoyed your thread...have tried your product yet?...and was it successful?  Thanks for shareing with us  take care and be safe


420


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## THCPezDispenser

I mentioned at the beginning this was research, not experience.  I have the gibberrellic acid and will be giving it a try this go-round...I am starting with some Apollo 11's from Joey Seed, so I will probably do a natural cross first to get more seeds to work with.


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## 4u2sm0ke

will you continue your research in this thread?..i would like to fallow if i may


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## THCPezDispenser

Absolutely!  Pull up a chair   I am trying to find a better spot for my grow, I need a bit more space than I have so stay tuned...


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## born2killspam

One aspect of feminizing I've been pondering is if XX pollen is COMPLETELY viable, or whether its more prone to chromosome translocations or other abnormalities etc..
Translocations can arise from problems during cell division, and we are stressing these things to do something they really hadn't planned on doing in the first place..
Its pretty much accepted that there are things that you can do to yourself that will increase the probability of a man having an unhealthy baby..
Essentially a flawed copy of genetic code is the only explanation I can come up with to explain the undenialable prominence (however slight) to hermaphrodism that feminized seeds exhibit..  Like I said earlier, female1xfemale2 'should' create more invigorated seeds than an F1 back-cross, but I'd put money on the fact that more hermies arise from the more genetically diverse feminized batch..


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## THCPezDispenser

born2killspam said:
			
		

> Essentially a flawed copy of genetic code is the only explanation I can come up with to explain the undenialable prominence (however slight) to hermaphrodism that feminized seeds exhibit..


 
It seems that the prominence is due to poor feminization practices, namely using hermies to create feminized seeds.  As I mentioned in the post, these are technically feminized seeds but they are also guaranteed to have the hermie trait...a lot of feminized seed companies do this because it is cheap and easy to do.

I don't want to discount what you said about introducing abnormalities - the best way to find out for sure will be to stress the offspring and see what percentage hermie.


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## 4u2sm0ke

Thanks THC..just subscribed...and pulled up my milk crate..looking forward to your results..and good luck on the better spot for your grow...take care and be safe


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## born2killspam

THCPezDispenser said:
			
		

> It seems that the prominence is due to poor feminization practices, namely using hermies to create feminized seeds.  As I mentioned in the post, these are technically feminized seeds but they are also guaranteed to have the hermie trait...a lot of feminized seed companies do this because it is cheap and easy to do.
> 
> I don't want to discount what you said about introducing abnormalities - the best way to find out for sure will be to stress the offspring and see what percentage hermie.


Well, there is NO way to get feminized seeds without a hermie..  It would be nice if there was a less poor way, but there is not..
Secondly..  Hermaphrodism is something that 'atleast' 99.99999% of marijuana plants carry the genes for..  The question is how their other genes allow them to resist that..  The best feminizing candidates 'should' yield seeds that exhibit the same resistance, thats why I'm assuming there must be other problems..
My point is that properly feminized seeds 'should' be the least likely to herm..  Observations simply don't match theory..


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## born2killspam

Ya know what I'd really like to see, is a batch of seeds produced from XX pollen, and XY flowers..


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## THCPezDispenser

born2killspam said:
			
		

> Well, there is NO way to get feminized seeds without a hermie.. It would be nice if there was a less poor way, but there is not..


 
So let's think about this.  You are technically correct, as in if you use gibberrellic acid to create a male flower on a branch of a female plant, it is a plant with both male and female parts, making it visibly a hermie.  However the difference here is that this wasn't the result of the plant doing it on it's own in reaction to it's environment.  The process I listed weeds out plants that do this through the stress testing.  The ones that show themselves very hermie-resistant due to stress is our holy grail, these are the ones we want to use as our pseudo-males.  The difference between poor feminized seeds and superior ones is that the poor ones are made from natural hermies that turned due to stress and pass that trait on to the offspring, while the process outlined in the thread start with a plant that is hermie-resistant and we _artifically_ create pollen using an external natural hormone.

Poor ones - they are hermie to begin with so the offspring can become hermies as well and spoil a garden;

Superior ones - the breeding stock has been proven to be hermie resistant so the offspring should be as well.  Gibberrellic acid is not a mutagen, it is not going to destroy that genetic resistance.


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## THCPezDispenser

born2killspam said:
			
		

> Ya know what I'd really like to see, is a batch of seeds produced from XX pollen, and XY flowers..


 
Haha, I'm not sure if gibberric acid put on a male will turn it to a female, interesting experiment to add


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## THCPezDispenser

born2killspam said:
			
		

> My point is that properly feminized seeds 'should' be the least likely to herm.. Observations simply don't match theory..


 
Ok I think I missed this point in my previous response, but I'm not sure if the observations of this are out there.  Feminized seed makers typically don't say their method, so what you have observed may be in fact feminized seeds from a hermie?  Perhaps the breeder didn't go through the rigor of using good stock?  This is more a comparison of the breeder methods which I don't think we have facts on to do a proper analysis.


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## canibanol cannonball

THCPezDispenser said:
			
		

> I'll probably regret responding to this, but I will.
> 
> 
> 
> So I agree with you on 2 of the 3 items.  I haven't seen anywhere implying that gibberric acid "causes" hermies.  If you have, I would love to read more about it.  It creates male flowers, it doesn't alter genetics to introduce a hermie trait where it didn't exist before.  That stressing process I mentioned is intended to identify and remove hermies from the genetic pool, not introduce them.
> 
> 
> 
> Well thank you, that was my goal
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I am misreading your response, but the negative connotation makes it sound like you think I am promoting hermies, which I was not.  There was a detailed section on how to identify and get rid of them from your breeding stock through stress testing.  Isn't this a good thing?  I would argue a lot of people have hermies and don't even know it since the stress level is never reached to identify them because of the good care we have learned to provide to the plants.
> 
> 
> 
> Because I am curious.  Because I like to experiment.  Because I don't believe in not speaking about subjects and exploring them because they are considered taboo when there may be value hidden under the bias.  Because humans like to maipulate nature to it's benefit - White Widow is a creation of man, not nature



I wasnt meaning to come off so negative im just passionate about my take on things.
White Wid is man made but i dont think the original was feminized. I believe that ALL strains herm under stress/mismanagement. IMO male plants have a purpose. I dont wanna see cannabis pollinating itself. Doesn't inbreeding stabilize a strain?


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## THCPezDispenser

canibanol cannonball said:
			
		

> I wasnt meaning to come off so negative im just passionate about my take on things.
> White Wid is man made but i dont think the original was feminized. I believe that ALL strains herm under stress/mismanagement. IMO male plants have a purpose. I dont wanna see cannabis pollinating itself. Doesn't inbreeding stabilize a strain?


 
It's all good conversation man 

By inbreeding here I meant crossing a plant with itself, not close relatives (which is done to stabilize a strain).

I used White Widow as an example of why we don't always leave well enough alone and simply rely on nature, not really in the context of feminization.


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## born2killspam

Just to be clear, silver ions, and gibberellic acid promotes intersexed flowers in the same way accidental hermies come about..   The ethylene transport systems are disrupted..
I agree with CC though..  I think that if you try hard enough you can get any plant to flip without special chemicals..


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## papabeach1

THCPezDispenser said:
			
		

> Absolutely!  Pull up a chair   I am trying to find a better spot for my grow, I need a bit more space than I have so stay tuned...



I have tried your lighting way of "boot camp"   seem it works..  but hey..

if you gonna spout the seeds on your own,   its on,  I'm in... I ll follow your way... see if that gonna work...

walk that talk..  lets experience it..:hubba:


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## canibanol cannonball

i just wanna add i dont dissagree with 'thc methods (i wouldnt know if they work or not) but the method itself. IMO breeders should focus on potency and yeild not marketing ploys like feminization or auto-flower


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## born2killspam

Chemicals are a sure fire method no doubt..  My point was that intrinsically the same process is being employed..  Like if you need to rip up some concrete, the best way would be to get a proper tool like a jack-hammer, but if you're willing to spend the extra effort, a sledge hammer, or even a spoon will give you the same end result..


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## THCPezDispenser

born2killspam said:
			
		

> Chemicals are a sure fire method no doubt.. My point was that intrinsically the same process is being employed.. Like if you need to rip up some concrete, the best way would be to get a proper tool like a jack-hammer, but if you're willing to spend the extra effort, a sledge hammer, or even a spoon will give you the same end result..


 
I disagree here.  To expand on your analogy, I think it is more like having a crazy neighbour who comes and destroys the concrete in your steps when you are at work because he is stressed out, versus having a neighbour who is a demolition expert who you ask to remove your steps for you.  The second neighbour isn't just going to randomly destroy your property


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## THCPezDispenser

born2killspam said:
			
		

> Just to be clear, silver ions, and gibberellic acid promotes intersexed flowers in the same way accidental hermies come about.. The ethylene transport systems are disrupted..


 
Yes, I agree.  This is cause and effect.  The difference in what we are talking about is for a hermie, it will do it when stressed when YOU don't want it to.  With gibberellic acid, you are in control.



			
				born2killspam said:
			
		

> I agree with CC though.. I think that if you try hard enough you can get any plant to flip without special chemicals..


 
I'd agree.  The trick to having a good plant is to find one that won't do it at the drop of a hat.  Accidents happen in a growing environment, and in that case it is more advantageous to have plants that can tolerate more abuse before they reach their threshold and hermie.


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## born2killspam

I'm confused then, if you agree with both of those points, then what is your beef with natural stressing to herm?  I mean so long as you need to abuse the hell out of it to a point damn near death, revive it to test, and repeat several times?  I mean you have to perform these tests anyways to choose a suitable candidate for GA..  Then you can either give it 12/12 for a few days, then 5.5/1/5.5 for a few weeks, or wait until the flowers over ripen and grow pollen sacks..


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## THCPezDispenser

I think I guess I am confused here too  
What are we talking about? :48: 

I thought you were trying to make a point that gibberellic acid making male flowers is the same as a hermie caused by stess, which it isn't...?

So what's the goal here?  It's to find a plant that is suitable for cultivation that won't hermie during the flowering cycle and ruin a crop.  If it hermie's because you have let the buds overripen, well you've ruined your weed anyway, so does it really matter?  Gibberellic acid will induce male flowers, but that doesn't matter either, unless you are growing in a space contaminated with it, which I don't think is very common.  You don't want a plant that when stressed will turn, that is the practical danger to growers.  

I think you are trying to prove that ANY female will create male flowers under certain conditions?


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## born2killspam

Exactly, that is basically my point..  Effort is the determining factor..
How do you contend that its different?  From what I have read, stress in general impedes ethylene utilization causing male flowers, while chemical treatments impede ethylene pathways, causing male flowers..
And most ppl who use the 5.5/1/5.5 are able to get viable seeds from that very crop just like with chemical treatments..  I still believe that it is a poor choice to self a plant though when pollen can be harvested and applied to different XX genetics..


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## THCPezDispenser

born2killspam said:
			
		

> Exactly, that is basically my point.. Effort is the determining factor..
> How do you contend that its different? From what I have read, stress in general impedes ethylene utilization causing male flowers, while chemical treatments impede ethylene pathways, causing male flowers..
> And most ppl who use the 5.5/1/5.5 are able to get viable seeds from that very crop just like with chemical treatments.. I still believe that it is a poor choice to self a plant though when pollen can be harvested and applied to different XX genetics..


 
Ok, so I can agree with your point that it is the same mechanism that actually causes the male flower to form.  What I am asking is why that is relevant? 

My responses are looking at it from the perspective of the trigger to cause the mechanism to produce the male flowers, not the physiological reason the flowers form once the process has started within the plant.  Let's use a hypothetical stress scale from 1 to 10.  1 is the least stress, and 10 is the most.  Now you have two different female plants.  Plant A takes 1 unit of stress to form male flowers (impedement of ethelyne is great enough to causes male flowers to form).  Plant B takes 10 units of stress before the impedement is great enough.  Which one's offspring do you want in your real-world garden?  Plant B, it's more tolerant to a stress event that may happen in the process of growing, so it has less chance of ruining a garden, and will pass that high tolerance level on in its offspring.  You can't find out that Plant B is the superior plant with gibberellic acid...  100PPM on both Plant A and Plant B will cause male flowers to form.  Why?  I don't know.  Maybe because it creates an ethelyne impedement far greater than a stress level of 10 would.  But what conclusion can you draw from that?

Not sure what you mean by the light pattern? 12/12 - 24/0 - 12/12 replicates a light pattern is more like what a real-world grower would encounter due to something like a timer failure.  At the end of the day when all the experimenting is done, you want to end up with plants that will be tolerant of common stress conditions a real world gardener would face.  You have to pick some funky pattern (and this is pretty well an infinite amount of combinations) to use consistently to stress your candidates.  Why not use one that may actually happen?  

And yes, self pollenation is bad, you shouldn't do it.  I didn't question you on that one.


----------



## THCPezDispenser

canibanol cannonball said:
			
		

> IMO breeders should focus on potency and yeild not marketing ploys like feminization or auto-flower


 
Why?

Here is my situation and why I like the idea of feminized seeds.  I like to grow my own stuff and I would like to be self sufficent, I feel uneasy ordering seeds through the mail.  I want to keep a 3 or less plant limit if I am busted to stay under the larger penalties (the second paranoia point but hey that's me  ).  I can't grow in a continuous cycle because of long periods of travel in my job, so keeping a clone mother around with no one to look after it for a month or more while I am gone is not practical for me.

Now times will come when I know I will be working locally and I will be home for a few months, so I go and plop 3 seeds in, only to find out 2 months later 2 of them are males.  Bummer, I just cut down my potential yield in the period I can grow before I have to leave again to 1 third.


----------



## canibanol cannonball

for some people fem seeds have a place,your situation fits perfect. i would rather take the best of my stock and breed it. If i were to get 2 male 1 female i would obviosly pollinate with the best male and get a new batch of seeds for the next grow. There are ways to increase the % of females when planting. But...i have the time and space so feming is useless to me.


----------



## Hick

'PEZ.. I'm totally 'with' you on the selection process, as I said before. But here in lies the problem that I foresee.
  What happens in following generations??
  What happens when those hermie/femminised seeds are allowed to be used to produce subsequent fillia? or X to other plants?  Plnts 'not' stress tested, or plants unknowingly holding a recessive hermie tendancy??
  Here are "my" thoughts on femmed beans.. If you "MUST" experiment with producing them, keep the seed, lineage isolated from "any" possible reproduction by 'anyone' not totally aware and educated on the probability of hermies.. Accidental or purposely.  IMO and many others, there is NO place in the breeding pool for hermies. They ARE detrimental to the production/further advancement of high quality pot.


----------



## born2killspam

Alas though, bag-seed is very likely to be created from XX pollen, and you can't stop ppl from growing/breeding with that..  Often bagseed comes from a long history of continual selfing..  The grower/buyer find seeds, grow them guerilla style the next year, and find mystery seeds in that crop too and so on..
Hick, where do you stand on bomb equatorial sativas, and their propensity to herm?


----------



## THCPezDispenser

Thanks for the comments Hick.  I don't know if you can tell, but I'm really interested in this    Hopefully you'll let me pick your brain so I can fill in the pieces I am missing here in my logic...



			
				Hick said:
			
		

> What happens when those hermie/femminised seeds are allowed to be used to produce subsequent fillia? or X to other plants? Plnts 'not' stress tested, or plants unknowingly holding a recessive hermie tendancy??


 
I'd argue you'd get the same results as if you were using non-feminized seeds...  I think our major philisophical difference here is that you feel the gibberellic acid process creates offspring more likely to naturally hermie under stress?  In my reading and my understanding what is happening, I don't feel this is the case.  Or are you just saying people who do not know what they are doing shouldn't be creating seeds, either feminized or natural? Let me set up an example to see if it helps us drive out the exact point we disagree on.

So to anyone reading, the following is is a hypothetical scenario I am using to isolate some questions.  It's not a "method" 

*Scenario 1* - Hick doesn't like feminized seeds, and absolutely does not want hermies.  But he likes to produce seeds from time to time in the natural way.  He has Plant A and Plant B, both are your special female clone mothers, and the apple of your eye.  These mothers represent everything you feel is good about a marijuana plant.  Great smoke, great growth characteristics, and in many generations of clone daughters from both of these plants (maybe even including a timer malfunction along the way), not one hermie.  You also have a male Plant C, who is the brother of plant B (2 peas in a pod, if you will  ), and knowing through experience how great his sister B is, you feel he would make an excellent father.  You keep him in a vegatative state so you can cut a clone once in a while and flower a male to get pollen.  You now take this pollen, and fertilize a flowering clone of Plant A.  You have seeds now, and statistically, 50% are females.  _*Question 1 - What do you think about the hermaphroditic tendencies of the females in this litter?*_

*Scenario 2* - Pez is looking for some good plants to start his garden with.  Hick generously gives Pez a clone from both A and B.  He grows them out and starts two mothers of his own, genetically identical to Hick's mothers of course because they are clones.  He makes some clones from them, flowers them, and gets ripped.  Pez thinks this is the best weed in the world, wow, it's great (thanks Hick  )  Now Pez finds out that in a few months for what ever reason he has to shut everything down and get rid of his mothers.  In the mean time, because of a nasty argument about feminization on MP, Hick doesn't talk to Pez any more, and getting two new clones from him in the future is out of the question .  Pez loves these genetics, and doesn't want to lose them, so he creates male flowers on B using gibberellic acid, and crosses it with A.  Pez ends up with a litter of feminized seeds.  *Question 2 - What do you think about the hermaphroditic tendencies of the females in Pez's litter?*


----------



## THCPezDispenser

canibanol cannonball said:
			
		

> for some people fem seeds have a place,your situation fits perfect. i would rather take the best of my stock and breed it. If i were to get 2 male 1 female i would obviosly pollinate with the best male and get a new batch of seeds for the next grow. There are ways to increase the % of females when planting. But...i have the time and space so feming is useless to me.


 
Absolutely man.  My ideal setup would be a rocking clone mother with a continuous harvest cycle.  All this talk is me trying to formulate a self sufficent process for my situation that works well, doesn't give me crap plants that hermie and destroy my precious crop in my limited grow cycles, and document it well so other people can take advantage too if it meets their needs.


----------



## born2killspam

Pez can benefit from Hick's scrutinous selection, but is as likely to see herms as any reputable feminized seed company while Hick would be taking a gamble..  Hick would know to consider the genotypes of A, B & C, if he knew their history..  If they were essentially siblings and already stabilized with C, Hick has a decent chance of predicting offspring, but if he can't be confident of that then he'd know that making any predictions is irresponsible, but he would have no reason to believe the results would be undesirable at all.. 


> I'd argue you'd get the same results as if you were using non-feminized seeds...


Using the Punnet squares theory alone I'd agree with you, but as I mentioned earlier, I wonder if intersexed male flowers are as likely to produce viable pollen as XY flowers..  We are coercing the plants to create growth they hadn't really prepared for, and problems during cell division can cause genetic abnormalities like chromosome translocations/deletions etc..  These types of abnormalities are responsible for many diseases (like sickle cell anemia), but other times they can be relatively harmless..


----------



## THCPezDispenser

born2killspam said:
			
		

> Using the Punnet squares theory alone I'd agree with you, but as I mentioned earlier, I wonder if intersexed male flowers are as likely to produce viable pollen as XY flowers.. We are coercing the plants to create growth they hadn't really prepared for, and problems during cell division can cause genetic abnormalities like chromosome translocations/deletions etc.. These types of abnormalities are responsible for many diseases (like sickle cell anemia), but other times they can be relatively harmless..


 
Bingo!  This is the fundamental question, and one I don't know the answer to for sure either.  My theory is that it would be ok.  Why?  Because as someone mentioned, most MJ will hermie if stressed enough, it is a natural built in survival mechanism to compensate for a poor growing environment.  So if it naturally hermies, is the male pollen viable?  I would say yes unless this survival mechanism of the marijuana species is in the early stages of natural selection and while a good idea from the perspective of the plant, it hasn't been quite perfected yet.  And please don't read this as me saying hermies are great!  Even if the pollen is viable, it is still passing along that low threshold turning hermie, which in the context of cultivating marijuana is BAD BAD BAD.  If gibberellic acid (a natural hormone that we are externally introducing to the plant in levels that a good female with a low tendency to hermie wouldn't have on it's own) is used, is it pushing the same button to create the male flowers.  Difference is that a garden variety hermie that no one likes is that it panics too easily and hits the button.  In the GA3 case, WE push the button on a plant. 

Is it the same button in both cases or is GA3 doing something wierd?  I don't know.  I take is it is a natural hormone, so probably it is the same button.  I guess the real question as you mentioned is does nature have it right yet, is the survial instinct to create the male flowers still flawed at this point in the evolution of the species, causing genetic abnormalities in the pollen created.  How can we find this out?


----------



## born2killspam

We really hit a wall there technologically..  Aside from results statistics we can't exactly determine pollen differences..  When I say 'viable' though, I mean 'totally healthy'..  It is possible that XX plants don't have the proper requirements to grow male flowers without problems being likely during cell division..  Obviously they can make pollen capable of pollinating..  Survival is worth a compromise that is for sure..
Its a known fact that some sperm etc have errors in the genetic information they carry..  This is my concern with XX pollen..


----------



## THCPezDispenser

Yep, I think that is where we are.  And yes, I agree with your definition of viable.  We know that hermies will produce seeds that can grow, I don't think anyone would dispute that.  It's just a question of is the pollen equivalent of normal male pollen, with the exception of it carrying XX instead of XY.  I think we are done here, off I go to see if I can find something to answer this!  I believe (but admit I can't prove) it is fully viable pollen, just from the fact that hermaphrodism is predominantly common in the plant kingdom with adaptations being more geared around preventing pollenation with itself,  which we all agree and nature agrees is not good.


----------



## born2killspam

Some plant species actually have genes that make self polination impossible..  MJ isn't one of them though..
If chromosomal abnormalities are more common with XX pollen though I'd expect some variations of mutations, but I have no way to know if there are extremely common abnormalities..
Hermaphrodism disregarded, what are ppl's experiences with other mutations from female seeds?


----------



## Hick

great discussion PEZ... but you're really wanting to make me think:stoned: ain't ya'.. 
  I'll come back to this one when I have a little more time.


----------



## 4u2sm0ke

yeah Hick you have be quik in this one..Im enjoying the experience...Thanks guys


----------



## canibanol cannonball

this might sound stupid but has anyone seen a Male herm?


----------



## papabeach1

1) The lights are turned on 12/12 for 10 days
2) Lights are turned on 24 hours
3) 12/12 again for 5 days
4) Lights are turned on 24 hours
5) 12/12 again for a few weeks

why not this one... to get more females by more period of light time..

1) The lights are turned on 18/6 for 10 days
2) Lights are turned on 24 hours
3) 18/6 again for 5 days
4) Lights are turned on 24 hours
5) 12/12 again for a few weeks
6) after determine the sexes and keep females, and go on with 24/7
if sexes is still too early, go back to step one... just that less par/light to plants can cause male sex to develop,


----------



## Hick

> Scenario 1 Question 1 - What do you think about the hermaphroditic tendencies of the females in this litter?


 First of all, a LOT depends on the lineage of the initial strain.. Providing that the strain is a long established, stable genetic, and not something like a "clone only" strain, which "I" tend to believe is nothing more than "one" exceptional pheno, I would 'think' that the tendency would be quite LOW, providing hick has had her through a few stressfull situations, and realizes her propensity to produce staminate flowers or not, and has provided for it in his selection as a Mother. BUT.. the trait could be lieing in the recessive or co-dominate alleles?? Not showing in this F1 generation, but could become a dominate traait in future fillia if the X is made again. Especially ig the stress testing isn't employed 'again' in selecting the next generation of plants.
F1 hybrids are known to express exceptional vigor and 'primarily' exhibit 50/50 characteristics of the mother and father.
  Like my question was asking PEZ,  it "usually" isn't in the F1's that the negatives become apparent, it's in following generations, that your _primary_  "selection" process will be tested...IMO  

Scenario 2:"Question 2 - What do you think about the hermaphroditic tendencies of the females in Pez's litter?"
  First off, I know this guy. No matter how 'heated' the discussion at MP, he would likely NOT deny you the cuts, in preference to seeing you attempting "femmed seeds".. :rofl: .. hee hee
.....but given the "hypothetical" case, you are basically making the same X as hick made w/ his 'natural' male, except useing pollen from GA induced staminates? right?  I think that puts us back to here..
"It's just a question of is the pollen equivalent of normal male pollen, with the exception of it carrying XX instead of XY.",,, "I" don't know r have that answer :confused2: either. 
 From watching journals here, I've not seen a 'lot' of mutations in the fwmmed seeds, but just as with hicks X, the following generations will be the 'tale tellers'.. IMO



> this might sound stupid but has anyone seen a Male herm?


yes CC. Though far less common, males can produce pistils, too.


----------



## Hick

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> 1) The lights are turned on 12/12 for 10 days
> 2) Lights are turned on 24 hours
> 3) 12/12 again for 5 days
> 4) Lights are turned on 24 hours
> 5) 12/12 again for a few weeks
> 
> why not this one... to get more females by more period of light time..
> 
> 1) The lights are turned on 18/6 for 10 days
> 2) Lights are turned on 24 hours
> 3) 18/6 again for 5 days
> 4) Lights are turned on 24 hours
> 5) 12/12 again for a few weeks
> 6) after determine the sexes and keep females, and go on with 24/7
> if sexes is still too early, go back to step one... just that less par/light to plants can cause male sex to develop,



 because more females is not "what" is being tested for. The eratic cycle is to promote the expression of hermies, so they can be eliminated from the breeding process..


----------



## papabeach1

so I do need keep one male near by to get all female to stick to be females?

and they can feel they are available for breeding process, if so they can stay in female mode and stick with it?


----------



## THCPezDispenser

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> so I do need keep one male near by to get all female to stick to be females?
> 
> and they can feel they are available for breeding process, if so they can stay in female mode and stick with it?


 
I'm not quite sure what you are asking?  You don't want any males near your females.  The test is taking some females, stressing them, and seeing which ones don't turn into a hermie with the funky light schedule.  The ones that don't turn are the superior ones, you get rid of the rest.  The ones that pass can then be used for breeding purposes.


----------



## born2killspam

Honestly I have no idea if male proximity subtly affects cannibis..  It is an issue in some other species..


----------



## papabeach1

lets get back to the point,  and cut the long deep explanation

10 plants I have is confirmed females..which is sweet...from bag seeds.  yay..

my most fear is.. to have them turn to be hermie!!  I have decide to keep all females as MOTHERS... 

and the bottom line here is how to create a feminized seeds..  and how do I stick these 10 plants to stay in female mode?  I plan to reverse the lights to be 24/7 and build a little room for all mothers..      it will be nice if anyone can school me to make feminized seeds..  I aint gonna sell the seeds...but willing to give away (not all of seeds!) and people can grow more with better traits of females in U.S. than to deal with dutch seeds..


----------



## THCPezDispenser

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> lets get back to the point, and cut the long deep explanation


 
Papa,

There is no quick answer for this.  Breeding correctly is an advanced topic, and not understanding the long deep explainations means you probably need some more time, research and experience before you go taking on making feminized seeds.

To answer your question, if these 10 plants have a strong hermie trait, there is nothing you can do about that.  There is no magical way to reverse this.  We have been talking about eliminating hermies from a successive breeding line, and this could take 100's of plants and possibly years depending on the size of your setup and the quality of the plants you are evaluating.

If you are just trying to grow weed for yourself, buy seeds from a reputable dealer, and create mother's to clone from.  Care for the plants well based on all the great advice you can find in this forum.  In the course of growing out the plants, if you find any of the clones hermie, destroy the originating mother plant as she is has a hermie tendency, and there is nothing you can do about it.


----------



## papabeach1

it best not have strong hermie traits  now that you mention!! 

like u said  one of the crop will turn to hermie if theres is no males around?    

now I have hard time to decide about keep male if I get one..  or destroy it

would female stay in mode of female if just one male is around?  like 10 feet away from females?


----------



## THCPezDispenser

papabeach1 said:
			
		

> like u said one of the crop will turn to hermie if theres is no males around?


 
Can you quote where I said that so I can see what I wrote?  We didn't talk about males being in the presence of females to keep them from turning into a hermie, I think you have taken something out of context or I said something incorrectly?


----------



## papabeach1

THCPezDispenser said:
			
		

> The hermie genetic trait is thought to be a survival characteristic of marijuana. It is a reaction to poor growing conditions where a female plant feels that there is a poor chance of a natural fertilization of its buds by an external male. As a result, the plant will take the dramatic emergency measure of producing both male & female flowers in a last ditch effort to reproduce itself.



that might happen in my experiences

so therefore  see why I ain't excited!     and want to do my best to avoid for females to be hermie     its last thing I want them to be hermie.. and its last thing I want to call dutch seed lol    help!


----------



## THCPezDispenser

Sorry, I see why you thought that.  By "feel" I meant that due poor growing conditions such as a messed up light schedule, variances in ideal temperatures, etc. the plant reacts by producing male flowers itself.  As far as I know, it has no way to know if a male is close or not.  Think of it like the plant thinking "this is a miserable spot to live, perhaps no other mj plants are  able to survive here and I'm the lucky one?  I better make my own pollen just in case..."  Of course plants don't think, but the analogy demonstrates the reaction of the plant and why plants may turn into hermies.


----------



## papabeach1

yeah  thanks pez for clearing it up..  you scared me for a few days  I said  let it be a one male... but end up with all females..    let me transform myself as one female.. and look back the history of my light period of time... yea  has lot of lights.. and did reversed 12/12 for few weeks,   then back to 18/6 as what pez followed,  then female caylx and pistols appeared...  rumors says papa gonna put us in 24/7...     so we should be OK?   papa kills hermies ya know?


----------



## canibanol cannonball

im high....
have you tried 'G. acid on a male plant? would it produce a bud? and make Male'ized seeds?
if it does, someone should do it, grow a Male'ized and a Femed plant and breed the two, its too weird IM FREAKIN OUT!


----------



## Hick

....."STELLAR"  advice 



			
				THCPezDispenser said:
			
		

> Papa,
> 
> There is no quick answer for this.  Breeding correctly is an advanced topic, and not understanding the long deep explainations means you probably need some more time, research and experience before you go taking on making feminized seeds.
> 
> To answer your question, if these 10 plants have a strong hermie trait, there is nothing you can do about that.  There is no magical way to reverse this.  We have been talking about eliminating hermies from a successive breeding line, and this could take 100's of plants and possibly years depending on the size of your setup and the quality of the plants you are evaluating.
> 
> If you are just trying to grow weed for yourself, buy seeds from a reputable dealer, and create mother's to clone from.  Care for the plants well based on all the great advice you can find in this forum.  In the course of growing out the plants, if you find any of the clones hermie, destroy the originating mother plant as she is has a hermie tendency, and there is nothing you can do about it.


----------



## Hick

canibanol cannonball said:
			
		

> im high....
> have you tried 'G. acid on a male plant? would it produce a bud? and make Male'ized seeds?
> if it does, someone should do it, grow a Male'ized and a Femed plant and breed the two, its too weird IM FREAKIN OUT!



GA effects the ethylene levels and produces "staminate" flowers, I don't think i works vice-versa. (forces a staminate plant to produce pistillate flowers)  Maybe Dutch masters "Reverse" would be a better product to attempt that experiment with 

........but like PEZ said above..





> Breeding correctly is an advanced topic, and not understanding the long deep explainations means you probably need some more time, research and experience



 I'll be totally honest here, there is a LOT that I simply do not know or understand about actual "breeding". And without an in depth understanding of genetics, and how/why incomplete dominance, co-dominance, dominate, recessive, alleles, genes, ect. characteristics/traits are expressed and or effected, you aren't "breeding" you're just makeing seeds. Which is fine, if you do it for your own entertainment purposes, or for your own experience. 
  An undertanding or history, genetic makeup, of the strain that you are going to work with is important. The breeder, his 'selection' process, how vigorous his elimination process was, ect. That should give you "some" insite into the strains stability. The genetic makeup of the plant, strain.. .
  An understanding and experience of growinng the same strain, same plants from cuts a few times, should be employed. That should further enlighten you on the strains ability or lack of, to endure varied conditions, stress, ect. and the effects.

  "Learn to crawl, then learn to walk, then learn to run,...THEN enter a marathon"


----------



## darksideofoz

I like the boot camp stage, should be implemented in any serious breeding project


----------



## THCPezDispenser

Yes, I like it too.  To be fair I didn't come up with it, I dug it up somewhere and had it in my notes as a great idea for identifying good breeding stock.


----------



## born2killspam

papabeach, I hate to say it, but if you got 10/10 females at this point, that isn't a good thing for breeding..  Bag seed is often (perhaps usually) the result of female polination from a mystery herm..  Mystery herms are often easy herms likely to carry on the trait, and even if it was the result of immense stress on a suitable candidate, feminized seeds of ANY origin usually aren't the most desirable breeding candidates..


----------



## 4u2sm0ke

:ciao: Hows it going THC?....have anything new on this subject?..thanks..:bong: :argue: :bong: :stoned:


----------



## Pothead420

in HT Sensi Seeds has been advertizing 100% female seeds:hubba: they claim thats why they havent got into the feminized market. they were waiting till they could produce a steady female line. how true this is i dont know but when i looked them up to order some they did say feminized not female like they advertise maybe there just covering there ***


----------



## DomsChron

*That would be messed up if they were lying...


Would loose ALL credibility from me.

SO many crap advertisements in HT...*


----------



## THCPezDispenser

No, nothing new.  I am nearly finished my new grow room so I haven't started anything yet, and it is going to be small since I figure I am selling this house in the new year.  Will have to wait and see what the new digs will be able to provide to give me some room to experiment (without cutting into my personal production, of course  ).  I think this thread did attract a lot of good discussion and I am happy about that.  I think the main question mark that came out of this thread is how "normal" is female pollen...something I don't think I will have the know-how to answer, so I'll have to settle for emperical evidence


----------



## THCPezDispenser

Pothead420 said:
			
		

> how true this is i dont know but when i looked them up to order some they did say feminized not female like they advertise maybe there just covering there ***


 
This is not surprising, not sure how you could sustain a "natural" female population without some sort of manipulation (aka feminization), they are probably claiming that they did it in a proper way like mentioned in this thread or with silver and a stringent selection process (to me I think would mean what they said - creating a steady female line without hermies).


----------



## born2killspam

Nobody, selling any seeds, feminized or not can legitimately make that claim..  If I were them I'd advertise them as simply the most herm resistant seeds out there..  (And hopefully that claim would actually be valid)..


----------



## born2killspam

It just occurred to me, there is one way that SS could claim zero possibilty of herm (or rather zero possibility of polination, and that would be by breeding a tetraploid with a diploid to get a batch of sterile triploid plants..  They may grow the flowers, but under no circumstances could they be part of seed production desired or not..


----------



## BuddyLuv

fem seeds suck. Excuse the language. I grew Dutch Passion Blueberry fems in two totally different environments with different nute levels. One room ran 78 degrees 2000w of light in an aero set-up at 1400 ppm. They never showed any sign of stress and hermied @ week 7. Second room was alot smaller 800w of light 85 degrees with CO2 and a PPM 800. No signs of stress again but they hermied @ 7 weeks once again.


----------



## massproducer

It doesn't work like that... Polyploids are very rare, even in seeds that have been chemically treated because it is a mutation... Breeding a polyploid with a diploid does not produce a sterile triploid, that is a fact... The resulting offspring will in turn be weak diploids that have a higher tendancy then normal to display these types of mutations...  I have no idea why you would think that the male offspring would be sterile???



			
				born2killspam said:
			
		

> It just occurred to me, there is one way that SS could claim zero possibilty of herm (or rather zero possibility of polination, and that would be by breeding a tetraploid with a diploid to get a batch of sterile triploid plants.. They may grow the flowers, but under no circumstances could they be part of seed production desired or not..


----------



## born2killspam

From Wikipedia:





> Since chromosome segregation is driven by microtubules, colchicine is also used for inducing polyploidy in plant cells during cellular division by inhibiting chromosome segregation during meiosis; half the resulting gametes therefore contain no chromosomes, while the other half contain double the usual number of chromosomes (i.e., diploid instead of haploid as gametes usually are), and lead to embryos with double the usual number of chromosomes (i.e. tetraploid instead of diploid). While this would be fatal in animal cells, in plant cells it is not only usually well tolerated, but in fact frequently results in plants which are larger, hardier, faster growing, and in general more desirable than the normally diploid parents; for this reason, this type of genetic manipulation is frequently used in breeding plants commercially. In addition, when such a tetraploid plant is crossed with a diploid plant, the triploid offspring will be sterile, which may be commercially useful in itself by requiring growers to buy seed from the supplier, but also can often be induced to create a "seedless" fruit if pollinated (usually the triploid will also not produce pollen, therefore a diploid parent is needed to provide the pollen). This is the method used to create seedless watermelons, for instance. On the other hand, colchicine's ability to induce polyploidy can be exploited to render infertile hybrids fertile, as is done when breeding triticale from wheat and rye. Wheat is typically tetraploid and rye diploid, with the triploid hybrid infertile. Treatment with colchicine of triploid triticale gives fertile hexaploid triticale.


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## massproducer

You are taking things totally out of context, Cannabis as a species is a diploid, but not all plant are diploids and not all plants react the same way, in response to an equal action.  If you are going to quote someting you have to find something that relates to the species, for example the work of R.C Clarke in MJ botony... A watermelon has about as much to do with Marijuana as a tortise does to you...This is the research that has been done regarding colchicine in regards to cannabis:




*Polyploidy (favorable traits in Cannabis) has not been shown to occur naturally in Cannabis; however, it may be induced artificially with colchicine treatments. Colchicine is a poisonous compound extracted from the roots of certain Colchicum species; it inhibits chromosome segregation to daughter cells and cell wall formation, resulting in larger than average daughter cells with multiple chromosome sets. 

The studies of H. E. Warmke et al. (1942-1944) seem to indicate that colchicine raised drug levels in Cannabis. It is unfortunate that Warmke was unaware of the actual psychoactive ingredients of Cannabis and was therefore unable to extract THC. His crude acetone extract and archaic techniques of bioassay using killifish and small freshwater crustaceans are far from conclusive. He was, however, able to produce both triploid and tetraploid strains of Cannabis with up to twice the potency of dip- bid strains (in their ability to kill small aquatic organisms). The aim of his research was to "produce a strain of hemp with materially reduced marijuana content" and his results indicated that polyploidy raised the potency of Cannabis without any apparent increase in fiber quality or yield. 

Warmke's work with polyploids shed light on the nature of sexual determination in Cannabis. He also illustrated that potency is genetically determined by creating a lower potency strain of hemp through selective breeding with low potency parents. More recent research by A. I. Zhatov (1979) with fiber Cannabis showed that some economically valuable traits such as fiber quantity may be improved through polyploidy. Polyploids require more water and are usually more sensitive to changes in environment. Vegetative growth cycles are extended by up to 30-40% in polyploids. An extended vegetative period could delay the flowering of polyploid drug strains and interfere with the formation of floral clusters. 

It would be difficult to determine if cannabinoid levels had been raised by polyploidy if polyploid plants were not able to mature fully in the favorable part of the season when cannabinoid production is promoted by plentiful light and warm temperatures. Greenhouses and artificial lighting can be used to extend the season and test polyploid strains. The height of tetraploid (4n) Cannabis in these experiments often exceeded the height of the original diploid plants by 25-30%. Tetraploids were intensely colored, with dark green leaves and stems and a well developed gross phenotype. Increased height and vigorous growth, as a rule, vanish in subsequent generations. Tetraploid plants often revert back to the diploid condition, making it difficult to support tetraploid populations. Frequent tests are performed to determine if ploidy is changing. 

Triploid (3n) strains were formed with great difficulty by crossing artificially created tetraploids (4n) with dipbids (2n). Triploids proved to be inferior to both diploids and tetraploids in many cases. De Pasquale et al. (1979) conducted experiments with Cannabis which was treated with 0.25% and 0.50% solutions of colchicine at the primary meristem seven days after generation. Treated plants were slightly taller and possessed slightly larger leaves than the controls, Anoma- lies in leaf growth occurred in 20% and 39%, respectively, of the surviving treated plants. In the first group (0.25%) cannabinoid levels were highest in the plants without anomalies, and in the second group (0.50%) cannabinoid levels were highest in plants with anomalies. 

Overall, treated plants showed a 166-250% increase in THC with respect to controls and a decrease of CBD (30-33%) and CBN (39-65%). CBD (cannabidiol) and CBN (cannabinol) are cannabinoids involved in the biosynthesis and degradation of THC. THC levels in the control plants were very low (less than 1%). Possibly colchicine or the resulting polyploidy interferes with cannabinoid biogenesis to favor THC. In treated plants with deformed leaf lamina, 90% of the cells are tetraploid (4n 40) and 10% diploid (2n 20). In treated plants without deformed lamina a few cells are tetraploid and the remainder are triploid or diploid. 

The transformation of diploid plants to the tetraploid level inevitably results in the formation of a few plants with an unbalanced set of chromosomes (2n + 1, 2n - 1, etc.). These plants are called aneuploids. Aneuploids are inferior to polyploids in every economic respect. Aneuploid Cannabis is characterized by extremely small seeds. The weight of 1,000 seeds ranges from 7 to 9 grams (1/4 to 1/3 ounce). Under natural conditions diploid plants do not have such small seeds and average 14-19 grams (1/2- 2/3 ounce) per 1,000 (Zhatov 1979). Once again, little emphasis has been placed on the relationship between flower or resin production and polyploidy. Further research to determine the effect of polyploidy on these and other economically valuable traits of Cannabis is needed. 

Colchicine is sold by laboratory supply houses, and breeders have used it to induce polyploldy in Cannabis. However, colchicine is poisonous, so special care is exercised by the breeder in any use of it. Many clandestine cultivators have started polyploid strains with colchicine. Except for changes in leaf shape and phyllotaxy, no out- standing characteristics have developed in these strains and potency seems unaffected. However, none of the strains have been examined to determine if they are actually polyploid or if they were merely treated with colchicine to no effect. 

Seed treatment is the most effective and safest way to apply colchicine. * In this way, the entire plant growing from a colchicine-treated seed could be polyploid and if any colchicine exists at the end of the growing season the amount would be infinitesimal. Colchicine is nearly always lethal to Cannabis seeds, and in the treatment there is a very fine line between polyploidy and death. In other words, if 100 viable seeds are treated with colchicine and 40 of them germinate it is unlikely that the treatment induced polyploidy in any of the survivors. On the other hand, if 1,000 viable treated seeds give rise to 3 seedlings, the chances are better that they are polyploid since the treatment killed all of the seeds but those three. 

It is still necessary to determine if the offspring are actually polyploid by microscopic examination. The work of Menzel (1964) presents us with a crude map of the chromosomes of Cannabis, Chromosomes 2-6 and 9 are distinguished by the length of each arm. Chromosome 1 is distinguished by a large knob on one end and a dark chromomere 1 micron from the knob. Chromosome 7 is extremely short and dense, and chromosome 8 is assumed to be the sex chromosome. In the future, chromosome *The word "safest" is used here as a relative term. 

Colchicine has received recent media attention as a dangerous poison and while these accounts are probably a bit too lurid, the real dangers of exposure to coichicine have not been fully researched. The possibility of bodily harm exists and this is multiplied when breeders inexperienced in handling toxins use colchicine. Seed treatment might be safer than spraying a grown plant but the safest method of all is to not use colchicine. mapping will enable us to picture the location of the genes influencing the phenotype of Cannabis. This will enable geneticists to determine and manipulate the important characteristics contained in the gene pool. For each trait the number of genes in control will be known, which chromosomes carry them, and where they are located along those chromosomes. *

(Taken from 'Marijuana Botany',R.C.Clarke,CH.3)


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## Mutt

:holysheep: :stuff-1125699181_i_:bolt:


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## 4u2sm0ke

DEEP..good stuff  thanks guys/gals


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## born2killspam

> You are taking things totally out of context, Cannabis as a species is a diploid, but not all plant are diploids and not all plants react the same way, in response to an equal action.


That book excerpt may be more relevant data, but I'm not the only person taking things out of context..  Watermellons are also a diploid species naturally..  Perhaps they are innately much more suitable for this treatment, or perhaps the success is due to more widespread responsible study..  Its not like watermellon is the only plant this is done with..  A huge number of commercial plants have been tampered with via polyploidy/colchicine..  I tend to be skeptical of alot of cannabis focused science when it deviates alot from common expectation, while a huge number of other diploid plants do not..


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## massproducer

You have talked about 1 species with that being a watermelon, and even with watermelons it is a lot more complex then you are maikng it... A watermelon is a fruit which must be first pollenated in order to even produce fruit... If you want to provide other examples that are more relevant then by all mean, fill your boots, but to say that because a watermelon acts this way, cannabis will too is rather nieve... and in fact a seedless watermelon being a fruit will always have seeds, just that the seeds are infertile, if the sex organs didn't work then you would have no fruit, because fruit is not pollinated and does not create seeds in the same way as cannabis does...This is basic botony, so when you say that I took something out of context then first you have to actually do some research, and not just from wikipedia

If you do some hard research you will find that the only deviation from science and facts are what you are saying


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## born2killspam

You're free to read other sources yourself..  You obviously realize that while I primarily posted regarding watermellons, many other examples exist in a wide variety of commercial plants..  Why you're focusing on one differing aspect (flowers as opposed to fruits) when the process isn't unique to fruits I don't understand.. I'd feel more confident that triploid cannabis plants are reliably inferior when the same results are obtained from other more recent, credible experiments..  Preferably ones with more quantitative analysis on the topic..
I never said it was simple..  I said perhaps that is a route SS has investigated to make these seeds..
Regarding my deviation from scientific knowledge or ?fact?, I'm always happy to be corrected if I misunderstand something..  Again though I must point out that I'm not the only guilty party here..  You seem to know quite a bit about how diploids and tetraploids produce triploids now, but...





> It doesn't work like that... Polyploids are very rare, even in seeds that have been chemically treated because it is a mutation... Breeding a polyploid with a diploid does not produce a sterile triploid, *that is a fact*... The resulting offspring will in turn be weak diploids that have a higher tendancy then normal to display these types of mutations... I have no idea why you would think that the male offspring would be sterile???


I guess the science has changed since yesterday..  

I'll let you have the last word on this now, I don't really want to battle..  I've learned a ton from your posts here..


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## massproducer

Well the science has not changed at all, i was referring to cannabis, and triploids are not sterile the seed are not viable, there is a major difference in these two things, but for a fruit tree or vine to produce fruit the buds have to be pollinated, which is totally different then say hops or Hemp, which do not have to be pollinated to produce fruit, they need to be pollinated to spread their genes and make seeds...  So an unpollinated fruit tree will never produce fruit because it has to be pollinated in order to produce fruit...  Not all seedless fruit crops are created in the same way... Seedless Grapes for example do not use this method... What works for one familia of species will not necessarily work on others.

I honestly really like you, you have a scientific mind, as do I, and I truly respect your positions and opinions, the only point i am making is that it is difficult to compare similar techniques used on different gene pools, meaning simply what works for 1 doesn't always work for others...

Lastly, regardless of the age of the sudies presented by Clarke, there validity is really not in question, these were very legitimate investigations done by highly respected scientist in a different time, before the war on drugs


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