# ebb & flow??



## daf (Dec 29, 2008)

hey peps, i have several questions, im thinking about doing a ebb& flow setup but want to know if u get more yield and better buds than soil. another question i have is if i where thinking of building a 3x3 tray, how many plants can i grow on that space and what is the best way to set can i seperate each in 3" netpots or 5" or should i just fill it with hydroton and just plant each one in rockwool which on of these methods is better, thanx for any suggestions


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## daf (Dec 29, 2008)

if i use the netpots, do i still have to fill up the tray with hydroton or can i just leave them just in the netpot


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## ugmjfarmer (Dec 29, 2008)

When using a 3x3 flood table, you have enough space for 24-36 plants. One popular method is to use 6" Rockwool cubes and fill the tray up. Another person might use 5.5" - 6" Square pots and fill the table with those, using either hydroton or some other media.

I myself would go for either 6" round or square pots, use hydroton or rockwool cubes. This would make moving them around easier. And I think my tray would have 24-35 plants in them, depending on the strain.


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## daf (Dec 29, 2008)

but if i put them in netpots do i have to fill tray with hydroton i wanted to make holes on the lid to suspend each pot


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## daf (Dec 29, 2008)

24-35 plants for flowering would they fit in a tray that size was thinking about getting greenhouse great white shark or white rhino seeds


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## pothead4life (Dec 29, 2008)

daf said:
			
		

> 24-35 plants for flowering would they fit in a tray that size was thinking about getting greenhouse great white shark or white rhino seeds


 
lol hell no i got a ebb&flow 3x2 and i can only fit 6 tops 

i had 4 and found a male today so i got 3 check out my sig


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## daf (Dec 30, 2008)

any comments???


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## NewbieG (Dec 31, 2008)

I'm currently doing a 9 plant ebb and flow with square plastic pots. I put them in rockwool starter cubes and filled the rest with hydroton. This gives the plants a good bit of room for root growth and is in my opinion the most space efficient. I just started the set up so i can't tell you how much i'll get a plant, but the way i see it is putting more plants in less space may give you less yield per plant, but you win by pure numbers. With a DWC you may get much more per plant but you can fit far fewer plants per area.
     Like I said, I don't know how mine will turn out, but its way more space efficient than pothead4life's set up is. no disrespect, just why put 4 plants, when you can put 25 smaller plants?  Better odds when starting from seedling too.


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## pothead4life (Dec 31, 2008)

NewbieG said:
			
		

> why put 4 plants, when you can put 25 smaller plant.


 
i used to have 12 in my veg room in that same tub, but when you get to flowering you need more room, i could push maybe 8 plants max in my 3x2 tub. i was going for 4 but found a male and ended up with 3  and i am happy. is my first time


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## daf (Jan 2, 2009)

so start of 6" of 4" rockwool and fiil the tub with hydroton


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## TentFarmer (Jan 2, 2009)

I personally opted for plastic containers full of hydroton.  I got the square ones measuring about 6" across.  

I personally am under the belief that having your plants grow in hydroton is superior to rockwool in an Ebb system as you want drainage.  The reason for it is it helps provide more air to the roots.  Wouldn't be bad for starting to root, but I would do the tiny little cubes if anything.  Those who I know who used Rockwool had to water much less frequently but you sacrifice air. 

Another nice aspect of the ebb system is the ability to move your plants so easily.  I rotated my plants daily to help cut back on stretching and to get nice full buds on all sides.  

The plastic containers also made flushing the medium much easier.  I would run tap water through the tubs for about a minute each res. change. 

As far as space goes, my tray is just a little under 4x4 and I started with 12 plants and cut back to 9.  I realistically could have had more plants in there if I raised my lights, but I had an air cooled 600w hps 6" above the plants and they loved it.  

Feel free to message me with any questions or check out my old grow for reference.  

My experience may be lacking but my results were amazing.  Speaking of which, I think I'll go enjoy a bowl of that grow now.

Good luck


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## NewbieG (Jan 3, 2009)

pothead4life said:
			
		

> i used to have 12 in my veg room in that same tub, but when you get to flowering you need more room, i could push maybe 8 plants max in my 3x2 tub. i was going for 4 but found a male and ended up with 3  and i am happy. is my first time


 
yeah man nothing against you bud. I just think that with plants: more = better. I'm sure the individual plants may suffer from lack of space, but at the end of the day you'll get more from the two squeezed. To each their own


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## daf (Jan 3, 2009)

so start them out with rockwool starter cubes


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## POTUS (Jan 3, 2009)

Pot growing 101:

The space needed for plants depends on many variables.

1. How tall do you want the plants to be at harvest?

2. Strain of weed

3. Will you be using LST to maximize space?

4. How long do you want to keep the plants in the vegetative cycle?

5. How large is your grow area in square feet?

6. What type and wattage of lights are you using for the vegetative cycle and also what type and wattage of lights are you going to use to flower?

After you've answered each of those questions, I can tell you EXACTLY how many plants you should have in your grow area.

To answer you without that information would be called "guessing". I don't think you want a guess if you can find out how many you can grow correctly with no doubt at all.

Stoney.


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## The New Girl (Jan 4, 2009)

Hi guys,
  POTUS is right on, there are so many variables. It is possible to do 36 plants in that area if you flower within a few days after birth and grow just single colas, which is not a bad way to go.  It is easier to do with clones than seed I think for that many. I would jump right down to 9 plants if you veg for 3 weeks or more. I would use a 600HPS for a 3' by 3' area. Hope this helps...   

PS I would use separate net pots so that they can be moved around and males extracted easy when the time comes as their roots would get intertwined if allowed to grow together. The size of the pots depends on how long you plan on vegging, 3" are fine if you go right into flower and I would use 5" for longer veg times.


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## POTUS (Jan 4, 2009)

oltomnoddy said:
			
		

> Alright then. I'm game.
> 
> 1. 36"-48" max.   2. Mainly Indica (now, Blueberry, before A.I.)   3.Just super-cropping, and trim off lower branches (less popcorn and more cola)   4. Till sex is determined and plant is sexually mature. (Hopefully no more than 12" tall.)   5. 2' x 4' Hydro drip stick method.   6. Veg, 3200 lumen's of 6500K CFL's. Flower, 2 400W HPS.
> 
> ...


Well alrighty then! Great information!

1. With a max height of only 36" and using the other variables you've mentioned, I would advise you to start your flowering cycle at no more than 8" in average height.

2. With a 2' x 4' area, using your methods, I would put 4 plants, or a maximum of 6 plants into your grow room. This will allow you enough room to work on the plants, lights and hydro system without bashing your plants around. It also gives them enough room to develop buds to their fullest capability. More plants than that and it becomes crowded.

Another way to look at it is that since you aren't growing weed to sell to people on the street and are looking to maximize your own stash, a cured pound of weed is very possible in your grow area. You can do this 3 times a year. If you smoke more than 3 pounds of weed a year, another room would make more sense than crowding too many plants into a confined area.

Of course, if you were the type of person who sells at street level and wanted to maximize your 50 grow rooms to produce as much as possible, then I would suggest the same exact method.

If you put ten plants in the same area, your cured weight won't change. The size and quality of your buds would change in a downward direction.

The cured weight would be almost the same and change slightly, crop to crop, depending on plant health and individual characteristics.

Put twenty plants in that area and you could start calling yourself a popcorn distributor.


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## NewbieG (Jan 4, 2009)

oltomnoddy said:
			
		

> Thanks for the answer.
> Actually, I usually only grow 2 plants at a time,
> 1 per light, quality over quantity.
> Only reason for 3 this time, germed 5 beans, got 4 females, 1's a mother.
> ...



At 400 watts a plant, it seems to me like you aren't really maximizing what you could be getting with little to no sacrifice on quality. 800 watts for 2 plants? that's alot...


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## POTUS (Jan 4, 2009)

NewbieG said:
			
		

> At 400 watts a plant, it seems to me like you aren't really maximizing what you could be getting with little to no sacrifice on quality. 800 watts for 2 plants? that's alot...


Light isn't calculated by the plant.

It's calculated by the square feet of canopy area.

3,000 lumens per/sq ft is the minimum I would use at full vegetative or flowering cycles.

5,000 is much better.


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## POTUS (Jan 4, 2009)

oltomnoddy said:
			
		

> And right now 8 square feet is being taken up nicely by 3 plants.
> Pics and grow journal linked below.


It sounds like you got it goin on, man.

ostpicsworthless:


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## daf (Jan 4, 2009)

how high is the table suppose to flood 5"


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## NewbieG (Jan 5, 2009)

POTUS said:
			
		

> Light isn't calculated by the plant.
> 
> It's calculated by the square feet of canopy area.
> 
> ...



I agree with you, but not knowing how big his plants are, you must admit they would have to be fairly large plants for it to be needing the space a single 400 could cover effectively. I guess I'm use to smaller plants lol


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## NewbieG (Jan 5, 2009)

daf said:
			
		

> how high is the table suppose to flood 5"



Thats what I flood mine at. Maybe slightly higher. My


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## POTUS (Jan 5, 2009)

NewbieG said:
			
		

> I agree with you, but not knowing how big his plants are, you must admit they would have to be fairly large plants for it to be needing the space a single 400 could cover effectively. I guess I'm use to smaller plants lol


My grow rooms are 3.5' x 5.5' in size. I grow 4 plants in each room. Until they're about a foot tall, I use a dual 125 watt (250 total), CFL to light them. Then I use one 430 HPS until they're at near full room size. Then two 430 watt HPS until harvest.

With two 430 watt HPS on those four plants, I have slightly over 5 thousand lumens per/sq ft.

I get a pound of cured weed from each harvest.

Figuring out how much light you need is easy. Aim for 5,000 lumens per/sq ft. of canopy.


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## POTUS (Jan 5, 2009)

daf said:
			
		

> how high is the table suppose to flood 5"


A 5" depth is ok as long as you have enough area for the root mass. At it's highest, the water should be at 2" below the top of the grow media. This maximises your root area and also ensures that light doesn't reach the nutrient rich water and grow algae.


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## smokingjoe (Jan 5, 2009)

NewbieG said:
			
		

> just why put 4 plants, when you can put 25 smaller plants? Better odds when starting from seedling too.


 
Do you know what would happen to a good looking bloke like me in prison?


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## daf (Jan 5, 2009)

im think im gonna try 6" netpots,what size rockwool would be best to put inside with the hydroton


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## daf (Jan 5, 2009)

lol


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## POTUS (Jan 5, 2009)

oltomnoddy said:
			
		

> Yep, you're such a pretty thing.:hubba:


Ok, fine, now I'll have weird dreams all night....

Oh man, "Jail break Sally"

"Southern Gentlemen ride again"

That's it, no sleep for me...


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## NewbieG (Jan 6, 2009)

POTUS said:
			
		

> My grow rooms are 3.5' x 5.5' in size. I grow 4 plants in each room. Until they're about a foot tall, I use a dual 125 watt (250 total), CFL to light them. Then I use one 430 HPS until they're at near full room size. Then two 430 watt HPS until harvest.
> 
> With two 430 watt HPS on those four plants, I have slightly over 5 thousand lumens per/sq ft.
> 
> ...



wow man that's a alot of cured bud from 4 plants! Do you mind me asking how long you veg. them for? I would love to get a pound a harvest if i could.


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## NewbieG (Jan 6, 2009)

smokingjoe said:
			
		

> Do you know what would happen to a good looking bloke like me in prison?



I see your point, but even at 4 large plants, I'm sure "estimated street value" would be in the millions dollars with those guys and girls we call the cops. they always make it sound like the bust of the year lol.


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## POTUS (Jan 6, 2009)

NewbieG said:
			
		

> wow man that's a a lot of cured bud from 4 plants! Do you mind me asking how long you veg. them for? I would love to get a pound a harvest if i could.


I veg my plants using LST until the entire grow area is covered with upwards growing branches evenly. Then I let them get 12-18 inches tall, depending on the growth speed of that strain, in my max of 38" of grow height. Then I flower them. At harvest, I usually have trained most of the branches nearest the bulb into a "U" shape to keep them the proper distance from the heat.

The actual time in days varies with the strain. The LST doubles the normal vegging time.

I'm in no hurry. I have weed falling out of my ears. 

That's a *cured* pound per/crop. I slow cure it for 3 months before I smoke any other than trial smokes.

After that, I open and air the gallon baggies I store it in, (inside cardboard boxes), once every other week for 24 hours. It stays real nice for as long as I like that way. I have one baggie that's more than a year old and if anything, it's cured down even more to make it seem stronger than it was at 3 months because the oil to plant matter ration has increased.


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## NewbieG (Jan 6, 2009)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I veg my plants using LST until the entire grow area is covered with upwards growing branches evenly. Then I let them get 12-18 inches tall, depending on the growth speed of that strain, in my max of 38" of grow height. Then I flower them. At harvest, I usually have trained most of the branches nearest the bulb into a "U" shape to keep them the proper distance from the heat.
> 
> The actual time in days varies with the strain. The LST doubles the normal vegging time.
> 
> ...



wow man thats incredible. I've seen the cardboard method used by Arjan for his Cannabis Cup plants so im sure it must be one of the best ways to cure the bud. The only LST I plan on doing is FIM on three of the plants to see if I can do it correctly. besides that I'm going to trim all the lower growth and just have colas as I think that may be the best method for the space I have. The under growth is already being covered up. I'm going to search a bit about your grows, I'd love to see this current one you got going.


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## POTUS (Jan 6, 2009)

NewbieG said:
			
		

> I'd love to see this current one you got going.


I can't post any pics of my pepper grows. The pics are elsewhere on the net and it would create a link between the two sites. Sorry.

Here's a pic of a Big Bud grow I did a few of years ago. This was at 4 weeks into flower. You can see what I mean when I say I covered the entire grow area. This is two of 4 plants.


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## POTUS (Jan 6, 2009)

And this is a later Aurora Indica grow. What you're looking at in the pic is half the room, two plants. This looks like about when I put them into flower.


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## trouble9039 (Jan 11, 2009)

I love my E&F system! I am currently using A 3x3 tray for A SOG, and I would have to say it is pretty productive for me..


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## trouble9039 (Jan 11, 2009)

Daf- How is it going for you! I harvest 12 clones in my SOG system  every 2 weeks and they weigh in at alittle over A ounce each dry!


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## daf (Jan 11, 2009)

do i feed the plants 3 times a day for 15minutes,


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## daf (Jan 11, 2009)

do i feed only when lights r on and what is the difference between ebb and dwc


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## trouble9039 (Jan 14, 2009)

my tray floods for 20 min, 5 times A day or 4 times A day and once at night! Feel it out and see what ur plants like!


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## POTUS (Jan 15, 2009)

I've always used one hour on, two hours off, 24/7. It works great. Adjusting your nutrient strengh at the various grow stages is the hard part. Knowing when and what to feed.


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## daf (Jan 18, 2009)

so do u also feed at night


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## TentFarmer (Jan 24, 2009)

I played around with the water cycles of my ebb system and found that 4 times in 24 hours for 15 minutes worked well for me.  The hydroton (in the bottom 3/4 of the bucket) ever got the chance to dry out and they finished up very happy.  At first I watered every 4 hours (6x's a day) and was getting a little nuit burn so I backed it off.  

Goodluck to you


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## daf (Jan 16, 2011)

bump


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## StoneyBud (Jan 16, 2011)

I see my old alter-ego "Potus". 

Good old thread!


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## daf (Jan 16, 2011)

is potus still around


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## StoneyBud (Jan 16, 2011)

daf said:
			
		

> is potus still around


 
Potus was me...hehe


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## daf (Jan 16, 2011)

ohhh what up


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## trillions of atoms (Jan 17, 2011)

daf said:
			
		

> but if i put them in netpots do i have to fill tray with hydroton i wanted to make holes on the lid to suspend each pot



Hey daf! :ciao:

When putting plants or cuts into a netpot it is important to fill with hydroton before putting the netpot into the container of ton'....or else the hydroton in the container will float up when flooded and push the netpot up and out of ton' that is inside the container. If you leave the neoprene collar on there for support remember it floats as well so dont try and cover the collar up with ton too as you will want to remove it later anyway. The less disturbance the better. I have found rooting the cutting in the netcup and ton and container instead of a cloner stresses them out alot less. but to each thier own.

I would deffinately go with ebb n flo for yeild- the dwc is great to for ease and yeild but you will have a longer veg time and fewer plants, the tray you can SOG and fill it up and finish fast.... My personal fav; 

Hope that helped


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## trillions of atoms (Jan 17, 2011)

Ohh and I feed only when lights are on, during the night cycle i leave the timer off and flood right when the light comes on. for clones i flood once an hr to once every hr and a half for 15 minutes, once rooted i back it off to once every two hrs then the next week once every four hrs and leave it... the faster you flood and drain and let dry and flood again the better. humidity and fans have a big part to play in the later period of the flood and drain times. Lower humidity and the more airflow the quicker the containers dry....


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## daf (Jan 17, 2011)

there are sooo many diff. times of flooding i am doing 30min on and 2 hrs off, my leaves are droppy dont know if underwatering or overwatering


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## daf (Jan 17, 2011)

humidity at 40 75deg. fan on 24/7, should i have fan on 24/7


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## StoneyBud (Jan 17, 2011)

daf said:
			
		

> there are sooo many diff. times of flooding i am doing 30min on and 2 hrs off, my leaves are droppy dont know if underwatering or overwatering


 
The flood times needed also change with the size of the plant and what stage of growth its in.

If you ask 20 ebb and flow people how long to flood and how long to wait between floods, you'll get 40 answers.

The best way is to do as you have. Ask, and then try what you think is best. If you have a problem, then adjust the timing.

If you're getting wilting, it *could* be lack of water. If the plants are still rather small and don't have a large root mass yet, your timing might be starving them a tad.

I would try increasing the on time and watch your plants very closely. If they start perking up, then you know you've found the problem.

There are no timings that are set in stone. Its whatever works. 

The wilting could be a nute lockout, water temp, nute strength and ambient lighting or temps. It isn't necessarily the flood/drain timing, but that's a good place to start finding the reason.


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