# Molasses and Corn Syrup



## noodles (May 4, 2007)

Ive been told and read that molasses can be used to sweeten and fatten up your buds. So I am wondering if someone could use corn syrup instead cause thats all I have and dont want to buy anything else. They both look the same and are made of similar things. Do you think I could use that?

Later


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## alaskabud (May 4, 2007)

Yes, go for it.
I'm a big believer in blackstrap molasses but the next time I go to the store I'm buying the best corn syrup and switching. I grow the same strain each time and only make one change so I'll know how some product works for me. Well, the addition of molasses to my soil grows increased my yield BY 20%, big fatassed buds! The only thing that did better was when I went from a 400W HPS to a 1000W HPS. The taste and smell of my buds was improved VASTLY by the molasses. I used 1/2 teaspoon per gallon of water thru veg and 1 teaspoon thru buding and 1/2 teaspoon in the last week flush.
This works as well as using the AN products Carbo load and Sweetleaf. IMO
Caution Hydo growers this stuff will gum up your system and coat your roots.
I just found an old post somewhere about how corn syrup is a better product because it will stress the roots less in soil grows. I'll post the thread if I can find it again.


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## noodles (May 4, 2007)

cool thanks alaskabud


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## alaskabud (May 4, 2007)

HaHa, one of the best threads on the subject is right on this forum. It's a copy of the 3littlebirds essay on molasses. Hey noodles scroll down to the last post and see what is posted about corn syrup!

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5149&highlight=molasses


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## noodles (May 4, 2007)

I mixed some corn syrup with my next gallon of water and added some to my plants. 2 of them only have 2 weeks left. Do you think that is enough time to sweeten my buds?


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## Dada (May 4, 2007)

I'm on my first indoor grow and my plants are going into the 8th week in flower. I have been using blackstrap moasses since the 2nd week of flower and the buds are huge, tight, and nearly dripping with resin. I can't say that the molasses did it, but it certainly didn't hurt. BTW, I am using a hydro bubbler system and haven't had any problems with it causing problems in my res. I know one thing -- I am going to use molasses again on the next grow. Corn syrup may work just fine, but then again it may not. It's not even a couple of bucks for a small bottle. Lots of people swear by molasses, but I don't hear all kinds of compliments for corn syrup. Why not go with something tried and true? Then again, if you have a grow to experiment with, go for it and let us know what you experience with it.


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## alaskabud (May 4, 2007)

Dada said:
			
		

> Lots of people swear by molasses, but I don't hear all kinds of compliments for corn syrup. Why not go with something tried and true?


 
Did you even read the thread I linked? The reason you don't hear about the corn syrup is because they stick in in these other products and charge you fifty times the price. So people rave about corn syrup under a different name.


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## Dada (May 5, 2007)

Yes, I did, Alaskabud -- and that kind of proves my point. There is *one* guy talking about why you should use corn syrup instead of blackstrap molasses and he doesn't even appear to actually have experience growing with it -- just kind of a theoretical statement. He discusses potential problems with molasses and the root system, but I just haven't seen many negative posts about that. Most of what I see mirrors your positive experience with blackstrap molasses (with only one exception that I can recall, below). Meanwhile, there are probably posts from 50 different people on this forum alone who have used blackstrap molasses with positive results. I did see one post a while back from a hydro person who showed sludgy roots after adding molasses, but it looked like he poured it in directly from the bottle instead of diluting it first. I mean, it was the day after he added it to the res and the roots looked like they had molasses dripping off of them. Many others swear by it. (BTW, I read -- like four times -- the entire thread by 3littlebirds on molasses before I finally decided to use it in my hydro grow.)

I'm sure that some of the commercial additives contain (or *are*) corn syrup, but what folks have remarked on in this forum is the way several of the additives smell exactly like molasses when they open the bottle. Folks are also very specific in that it *has* to be blackstrap molasses and not just normal molasses. I assume, then, that blackstrap molasses has something that other molasses and presumably corn syrup does not have. 3littlebirds actually discusses that in one of the earlier segments of that post.

Ultimately, it comes down to what you want to do. If you want to experiment and you have the time and resources to do so -- cool -- that's how we learn. Someone's gotta do it. I doubt that corn syrup would damage anything and probably helps a lot. However, if you are like me and you are just doing tons of research to find how to grow the biggest, dankest, stickyest, sickest buds, then you tend to stick with the tried and true... I have paid attention to virtually everything folks have written on this forum and now I am a week away -- maybe a week-and-a-half -- from chop and couldn't be happier. Each of my WW plants have two buds that are more than 16" long and bigger around than a Coke can along with numerous other smaller buds (only 8" or 10" long) on other stems. They are so coated with resin that they look like they are wet. Is all of this because of the molasses? I don't know. I just tried to research this forum and learn what had worked for multiple people on multiple grows and I kinda went with that. When I start seeing numerous posts about the superiority of corn syrup over blackstrap molasses, I'll switch!


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## Stoney Bud (May 5, 2007)

I've watched the discussion of using molasses to aid in growing with lots of interest.

However, using raw molasses IS NOT the best method in which to arrive at the desired end of plant enhancement.

The below information is collected from a site that discusses using molasses as the primary ingredient in the fermentation of EM, (Effective microorganisms).

If you use molasses in it's raw form, you're in the s-l-o-w lane. You're requiring it to ferment while in your plant medium. This is not an efficient manner to use it.

Check out this information and if you're interested, the additive EM is available from many sources including the one that I quoted. 

Basically, the purchased EM is added to warm water and molasses. It's kept at 85-95 degrees F. for 4 days or until the pH drops below 4.0

It's then added in a ratios of anywhere from 1:1,000 to 1:10,000 to either dirt or hydroponic solution to accomplish the great things it does. Please read the entire page that this comes from before using it for specific applications. The ratio for your use may differ from that of another user.

Here's the information:

*****

History of EM
Throughout the 1970s and 80s Dr. Higa pioneered the research that led to the development and commercialization of EM technology. This natural and organic biotechnology has since been successfully commercialized throughout world markets in human health, agriculture, livestock and industrial waste treatment. Thousands of research and efficacy studies have been conducted and documented in projects, conferences and books around the world.

Originally, EM was developed for use in agriculture (crop farming) as an alternative to agricultural chemicals such as pesticides and fertilizers. EM however is not a conventional fertilizer and unlike the purpose of fertilizers, the purpose of EM is to increase the number of beneficial microorganisms in the soil. This improves the soil's microbial health and promotes a healthy environment for plants. It can also be used as a processing tool to manufacture organic fertilizers.

Effective microorganisms, often abbreviated as "EM", is a generic and descriptive phrase and acronym to describe the theories, technology and applications of beneficial microorganisms, such as phototrophic bacteria, yeast, lactic acid bacteria and actinomycetes. 

This technology is all natural, utilizing beneficial and effective microbes to repopulate environments with healthy microorganisms. It is a natural and organic technology that has been found to be useful in numerous ways to benefit mankind.

When applied in agriculture, EM increases the microbial diversity of soil, thus, enhancing growth, yield, quality, and disease-resistance of crops. EM cultures do not contain any genetically modified microorganisms. EM is made of mixed cultures of microbial species that occur naturally in environments worldwide but which have decreased in many soils due to over-farming, and chemical fertilizer and pesticide use. The principal microorganisms in EM are:

A. Photosynthetic Bacteria 
The photosynthetic or phototropic bacteria are a group of independent, self supporting microbes. These bacteria synthesize useful substances from secretions of roots, organic matter and/or harmful gases (eg. hydrogen sulphide), by using sunlight and the heat of soil as sources of energy. Useful substances developed by these microbes include amino acids, nucleic acids, bioactive substances and sugars, all of which promote plant growth and development. The metabolites developed by these microorganisms are absorbed directly into plants and act as substrates for increasing beneficial populations. 

Seed Treatment: 
Gardeners may want to try soaking seeds in a solution of EM before planting to increase seed viability. Dilute EM with water at 1:1000. Soak seeds in solution for 5-10 minutes and no longer. Air dry and plant as usual. Experiment with small batches before treating larger quantities. Weak seeds and soil conditions may lead to decreased results. 

Nursery / Container-grown Plants: 
Inoculate with EM at seeding and transplant stages, then on a monthly basis thereafter. Use the standard dilution of 1:1000. Orchid growers have achieved good results by inoculating with EM immediately after planting in sterile media. 

Hydroponics: 
In hydroponic crop production systems, EM can be diluted with the nutrient solution at a rate of 1:10,000. This practice will coat the root systems with beneficial microorganisms and make nutrient uptake more efficient. 

Grain Crops, Vegetables, Fruits & Herbs: 
Spray the standard dilution of 1:1000 onto the plants. If introducing EM into an irrigation system, the dilution should be increased to 1:10,000. Apply as a pre-planting treatment, again at planting/transplanting and every three to four weeks during crop growth. Apply also to crop residues after harvest, just before incorporating residues into the soil. Use 1 gallon of activated EM per acre, diluted with the appropriate amount of water for each application. 

Activating EM (AEM)
There are probably many places where you can buy EM. The place this information was harvested from is:
http://www.scdworld.com/shop/product.cfm?product_id=040111

This product, combined with the fermentation of a molasses based solution results in the Activated EM that is very good for plants.

The primary reason to activate EM is economy, not efficacy. It is perfectly acceptable to use EM without activating it. However, adding a sugar source and culturing the microorganisms ensures that the microbes are active. Once the following procedure has been followed, the end result will be a full strength culture of EM that can then be diluted and applied. Materials: airtight plastic container, or large tank, 1 part EM, 1 part blackstrap molasses, 22 parts water. 3/4 cup EM, 3/4 cup molasses in 1 gallon of water. 

Procedure: Dissolve molasses in warm water and add EM. Activating EM is a mostly anaerobic process, thus the presence of excessive oxygen is not desirable. Keep the extension as warm as possible. If you keep the EM between 85-95 degrees it should activate in approximately 4 days. If the extension is kept between 70-80 degrees then allow for 5-7 days. 

Depending on technique and extension conditions, it may take anywhere from 4-14 days. Check the pH to ascertain when the process is complete; EM is ready when the pH drops to 3.7 or below. Do not use EM that has not dropped below 4.0. If your pH continues to drop to 3.0 or even 2.0 this is normal and indicates high microbial activity. The end product should smell slightly sweet and pickled. Activated EM, unlike EM, is best used within 7 days. It may last up to 1 month but should be used within this time. Do not extend an EM extension - the results cannot be guaranteed.


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## Dada (May 5, 2007)

Thanks, Stoney -- just a couple of questions. I had read about EM before, but not enough people were talking about using this formula in the forum, so I did not do it. (I had, of course, read threads about promoting a good microbial culture, especially in hydro.) My sense is that the focus of the EM recipe is not particularly on molasses, but on EM. Molasses is just the activating agent to make the microbes come to life and have something to feed off. Kinda like using a few pinches of sugar to proof yeast before you make bread... The yeast (or the EM) would work without the sugar or molasses, but it would take longer for the bread to rise or the microbes to come to life so they could do their thing.

What I have gathered from the folks at this forum is that they use molasses not particularly to stimulate growth of good microbes, but to give the plants a source of carbs and beneficial sugars they need to pack on bud weight and density and to improve flavor. (I've read mixed reviews on the flavor thing -- some swear it makes your bud taste wonderful and others say they don't notice a difference in taste at all.) In other words, one might want to use this EM recipe for different reasons than using molasses and that one might use the EM recipe *and* still use molasses in the normal dilution of one or two teaspoons to the gallon.

Is my interpretation of all this correct or incorrect? Like I said, I have some sick buds going right now, but I don't know if I can attribute that partly to using molasses since week 2 in flower or if they would have ended up like that anyway. The pics below are of my three ladies from my first indoor grow (going into week 7 -- they are going into week 9 now) and I used molasses. Four of the buds are over 16" long and as big around as a Coke can. There is a close-up of two of them below. All of the buds are nearly dripping with resin. I wonder how much better they would have turned out using the EM recipe. All things said, though, if this is the slow lane, I don't know how much faster I want to go!


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## Draston (May 5, 2007)

to add a nice sweet flavor to the buds do you think its better to use molassis or some sweet orange?


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## Stoney Bud (May 5, 2007)

Hey Dada, great questions and well said. The Black-strap Molasses is used because it's the most basic form of molasses and has the highest concentration of raw sugars to interact with the EM in solution.

Yes, there are a bunch of people who use raw molasses. I believe many more than those who combine the additional benefit of the EM process.

As for the benefit of raw sugar to plants, I'd love to read some studies of it if you have any handy. I've looked, but so far, I've found nothing but anecdotes. Please, if you can provide links to anything resembling scientific testing with this raw molasses usage, I really would like to read it.

I have seen a lot of people saying what you more-or-less repeated; "I don't know if I can attribute that partly to using molasses since week 2 in flower or if they would have ended up like that anyway."

I would love to have a report of some type of testing having been done to prove this method, right here in this thread for reference to everyone's questions.

Your buds are beautiful man! Without another group to compare to without the molasses, there really isn't any way to tell what the best practice is.

I'll be right over to help you smoke some of that bud man...


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## alaskabud (May 5, 2007)

Dada said:
			
		

> Yes, I did, Alaskabud -- and that kind of proves my point. There is *one* guy talking about why you should use corn syrup instead of blackstrap molasses and he doesn't even appear to actually have experience growing with it -- just kind of a theoretical statement. He discusses potential problems with molasses and the root system, but I just haven't seen many negative posts about that. Most of what I see mirrors your positive experience with blackstrap molasses (with only one exception that I can recall, below). Meanwhile, there are probably posts from 50 different people on this forum alone who have used blackstrap molasses with positive results. I did see one post a while back from a hydro person who showed sludgy roots after adding molasses, but it looked like he poured it in directly from the bottle instead of diluting it first. I mean, it was the day after he added it to the res and the roots looked like they had molasses dripping off of them. Many others swear by it. (BTW, I read -- like four times -- the entire thread by 3littlebirds on molasses before I finally decided to use it in my hydro grow.)
> 
> I'm sure that some of the commercial additives contain (or *are*) corn syrup, but what folks have remarked on in this forum is the way several of the additives smell exactly like molasses when they open the bottle. Folks are also very specific in that it *has* to be blackstrap molasses and not just normal molasses. I assume, then, that blackstrap molasses has something that other molasses and presumably corn syrup does not have. 3littlebirds actually discusses that in one of the earlier segments of that post.
> 
> Ultimately, it comes down to what you want to do. If you want to experiment and you have the time and resources to do so -- cool -- that's how we learn. Someone's gotta do it. I doubt that corn syrup would damage anything and probably helps a lot. However, if you are like me and you are just doing tons of research to find how to grow the biggest, dankest, stickyest, sickest buds, then you tend to stick with the tried and true... I have paid attention to virtually everything folks have written on this forum and now I am a week away -- maybe a week-and-a-half -- from chop and couldn't be happier. Each of my WW plants have two buds that are more than 16" long and bigger around than a Coke can along with numerous other smaller buds (only 8" or 10" long) on other stems. They are so coated with resin that they look like they are wet. Is all of this because of the molasses? I don't know. I just tried to research this forum and learn what had worked for multiple people on multiple grows and I kinda went with that. When I start seeing numerous posts about the superiority of corn syrup over blackstrap molasses, I'll switch!


 
Just messing with ya, tried to see if I could get ya to read that whole longass molasses article again 
Molasses, corn syrup, whatever, I don't believe it's the trace elements in blackstrap that are responsible for the weight gain in MJ. It's the carbs which is a fancy name for sugars that do the trick. Brown sugar would probably work just as good.


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## Dada (May 5, 2007)

Hey Stoney, you'd be welcome to come over and share my smoke any time and alaskabud you are welcome too! After all, you and a few other folks in the hydro section are largely responsible for the way my grow turned out. It is the guidance I received by reading the posts on this forum that helped me know what to do. I don't have any studies to point to other than what folks here post. I read everything avidly and try to pick what I think is the best/most sensible advice and then I go with that. I guess I just saw so many testimonials about molasses that I figured I'd give it a try. I don't know what individual things made the most difference for my grow (except for basic things like cab and bubble hydro construction, lighting, and keeping ph in balance and using appropriate nutes) -- I guess it is more a cumulative total of everything I have picked up from folks here.


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## alaskabud (May 5, 2007)

I'd smoke one with ya too Dada. Couldn't agree more that the forums are responsible for my MJ plants staying alive and well.


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## Stoney Bud (May 5, 2007)

Man, I was hoping someone would jump in with a half dozen studies that have been done!

Hey, we'll all have to meet in the chat room and have a smokeout.

I've already started...


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## Stoney Bud (May 5, 2007)

So hey, Noodles, did you hear about the family of moles that lined up near the entrance to their underground home?

Well, one morning, the Father Mole, he climbs up the hole and looks out, sniffs the air and says "Man oh man, I smell pancakes!"

The Mother Mole was right behind him and squeezed up beside him and said, "Oh my! I smell lots of melted butter!"

Their youngest tried to squeeze out the hole to see what he could smell, but Mom Mole and Dad Mole were blocking it completely.

He yelled "All I can smell is Molasses"

Hahahaahaha, ok, I'm stoned.

Tell me you didn't laugh...


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## noodles (May 5, 2007)

So will 2 weeks of the corn syrup do anything? Not to get back to the original question,   Or should I not add it now.


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## noodles (May 5, 2007)

That was honestly the funniest joke ive heard in a long time:banana:


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## Stoney Bud (May 5, 2007)

noodles said:
			
		

> That was honestly the funniest joke I've heard in a long time:banana:


 
Hahahaa, I couldn't help myself. That oldy popped into my head and I had to post it. Perfect topic.



			
				noodles said:
			
		

> So will 2 weeks of the corn syrup do anything? Not to get back to the original question,  Or should I not add it now.


 
Frankly, I don't know noodles. I certainly have no supporting evidence that it would help, hurt or do nothing at all.

I know that if I used that stuff here in the glades, I would have a house full of critters lapping it up and multiplying. Bugs own Florida. I just use a piece of it.

I would love to see a split grow under the same light with half the grow chambers being with and half being without added molasses or corn syrup.

It would be interesting to see the cured results and weights.


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## alaskabud (May 5, 2007)

noodles said:
			
		

> So will 2 weeks of the corn syrup do anything? Not to get back to the original question,  Or should I not add it now.


 
Go for it. If you want better yield, taste and smell. Don't get the impression by some comment on this thread that there aren't hundreds of people that use corn syrup if you look around the net. Here's a couple guys.

http://www.hg420.com/showthread.php?t=33022&highlight=corn+syrup


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## trichnut (May 6, 2007)

i just skimmed through this post... what i get from all this is that molasses or corn syrup is to feed the microbes in the soil.  and if so would that mean that its  for the most part the same thing as liquid karma by botanicare?


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## willPow3r (Aug 7, 2008)

Plants don't absorb sugars through their root system. All the sugar they use they create via the process of photosynthesis (water + carbon dioxide --light--> sucrose + oxygen) (more specifically, 11 H2O + 12 CO2 --hv--> C12H22O11 + 12 O2) in their leaves, which is then transported _to _the roots for storage. There are microbes in the roots of plants that use some of these sugars, which then respire carbon dioxide for reuptake by the plant (symbiotic relationship). Adding sugar (molasses) to the soil of your plants will aid in keeping the microbes in the soil healthy, but since the plants cannot absorb sugar through their roots, doing so will do nothing for your plants directly. That said, if your plants are experiencing growth or health issues, there are much more effective solutions than using molasses (or corn syrup).


Sources (interesting stuff):

physorg.com/news111926587.html
pearsoned.ca/school/science11/biology11/sugartransport.swf
plantphysiol.org/cgi/reprint/62/4/550.pdf
answers.com/topic/sugar-crops-and-natural-sweeteners

*These URLs would have been linked, but since this is my first post, I can't add hyperlinks to websites external of this site. Copy/paste to get them to work.*


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## stoner 420 (Aug 7, 2008)

do u just add the molasses  to plain water or to my nutrient water.. i grow in soil ... i am almost ready to start feeding them the nutrient and want to start the molasses at the same time ( experiment) just need to know how often to give it to them and how...... thanks


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## massproducer (Aug 8, 2008)

I would have to disagree with a lot of the science of what you said...  Firstly Microbes do not live in the roots.  The live on the roots and in the medium but they do not live in the roots, and have access to whatever they want, they have access to what the plant doesn't use which is mainly glucose, which is a simple sugar.  The other sugar created is fructose, which is mainly chained together and stored to use as future energy.  

secondly the symbotic relationship that is created mainly with fungi, not microbes/bacteria is mainly benefical to the plants because the fungi break down organic material and make the minerals availible to the plants.  The also attach themselves to the roots to increase the roots surface area allowing it to uptake more water and nutrients. 

The fact is that most major nutrient companies use high grade sugars in their nutrient formulas because it is a major nutrient chelator and greatly assists with nutrient uptake ( especially K).  By keeping all minerals and elements in the medium consistant with the amount that is present in the roots and leaves, you avoid your plant passing its stored carbohydrates into the medium to regulate the levels. 

By the way I have looked at all of those links and none of them say anything about roots not being able to uptake carbohydrates.  



			
				willPow3r said:
			
		

> Plants don't absorb sugars through their root system. All the sugar they use they create via the process of photosynthesis (water + carbon dioxide --light--> sucrose + oxygen) (more specifically, 11 H2O + 12 CO2 --hv--> C12H22O11 + 12 O2) in their leaves, which is then transported _to _the roots for storage. There are microbes in the roots of plants that use some of these sugars, which then respire carbon dioxide for reuptake by the plant (symbiotic relationship). Adding sugar (molasses) to the soil of your plants will aid in keeping the microbes in the soil healthy, but since the plants cannot absorb sugar through their roots, doing so will do nothing for your plants directly. That said, if your plants are experiencing growth or health issues, there are much more effective solutions than using molasses (or corn syrup).
> 
> 
> Sources (interesting stuff):
> ...


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## massproducer (Aug 8, 2008)

By the way Oxygen is not stored or transported in the leaves or roots, it is a waste product.  Oxygen is expelled through the stoma, and what you have left is sucrose which has the molecular structure of C12H22O11


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## willPow3r (Aug 8, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> I would have to disagree with a lot of the science of what you said...  Firstly Microbes do not live in the roots.  The live on the roots and in the medium but they do not live in the roots


Quote from the first article: "There are rich communities of microbes growing in or around the roots of all plants growing in normal soil. Most do no harm to the plant, and some are very beneficial to it."



> secondly the symbotic relationship that is created mainly with fungi, not microbes/bacteria is mainly benefical to the plants because the fungi break down organic material and make the minerals availible to the plants.


The type of fungi that you speak of, mycorrhizal fungi, is a type of microbe. Another quote from the same article: "The role of mycorrhizal fungi is better known. They are particularly important in carbon cycling, because they pump the carbon compounds out of the root into a massive network of fine fungal filaments in the soil, where it becomes available to other microbes and also to larger soil organisms like worms, mites and insects. In return, the fungus gathers phosphorus from the soil and delivers it to the plant, helping the plant to grow better. The research confirmed that there were many different fungi in the roots of each plant, but revealed, for the first time, which of these fungi were most active."



> By the way I have looked at all of those links and none of them say anything about roots not being able to uptake carbohydrates.


Carbohydrates (complex sugars) are too large to pass through the semi-permeable membrane that makes up the roots. Water and minerals can pass through, thanks to osmotic pressure. (members.aol.com/profchm/osmotic.html)


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## Hick (Aug 9, 2008)

I don't often find anything to disagree with mass' about, you're always right on the money... but on 'this' one, I have to agree with will. I believe that the "sugars" are beneficial to the soil and nutrient uptake through chelation.(?), but have 'doubt' about their actual "use" by the plants.


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## massproducer (Aug 9, 2008)

i will say it again, Mycorrhizal fungi are not microbes... Microbes are microscopic organisms, basically single celled organisms.  Mycorrhizal fungi on the other hand are mutli celled molds, the purpose of mycorrhizae are to decompose organic material, to remove the carbon.  As they do this they break the organic material down into its inorganic minerals making them availible to plants.  Also the plants use the fungi's mycelium to expand their feeding capabilites.  Fungi do not generate any of there own minerals, the decompose, what is already present.  The fastest cultured and most prevelent being trichoderma, or to any mushroom growers "the feared Green Mold"

Microbes on the other hand are used to fix minerals within a medium and decompose organic material into humus.  There are nitrogen fixing bacteria, phosphate fixing bacteria, sulfur fixing bacteria and others.  These Bacteria take minerals from the air and make them availible to plants.  Most of the fixing bacteria actually come from the air and land on the medium and colonate it, while the decomposers are already present in the soil.  Microbes produce food, fungi do not.  The carbon cycle is not very important growing inside as opposed to outside because there are no animals decomposing, in my medium.  While there are fungi that are microbes, those fungi are all simple single celled fungi, called yeasts.    

See I never said that plants actually absorb the actual sugar in the form of a sugar crystal, IMO, once the sucrose is dissolved into water and nutrients the chemical structure is going to start changing.  If we look at what we have, we essentially have carbon and water in a long chain.  Chelation means that certain elements have a tendency to bind to insoluble metals to make them availible to plants or other organisms.  It is a fact that sugar are excellent natural chelators.  Like I said that is why most nutrient companies add them, wheather organic or chemical based.  chelators form long chains of minerals and carbs so I do not think that the length matters as most of these will get absorbed by the mycorrizae and then passed to the roots as most things will once the colony is established.

So basically I responded to this thread because I read 

" There are microbes in the roots of plants that use some of these sugars, which then respire carbon dioxide for reuptake by the plant (symbiotic relationship). Adding sugar (molasses) to the soil of your plants will aid in keeping the microbes in the soil healthy, but since the plants cannot absorb sugar through their roots, doing so will do nothing for your plants directly."  

This says that all I will get from feeding molasses or any carb/sugar is extra C02.  Even in a totally sterile hydroponic grow, using H2O2 to kill beneficals, sugars will still chelate your nutes and make them more efficient by chaining them in long chains and keeping them in soluble forms.  This is important... to me anyways.

The other reason was that I do not agree that the carbon cycle is the main symbiotic reletionship that we are trying to achieve.  IMO, the nitrogen cycle and mycorrizal fungi are much more important growing inside... now if we are talking outside then yes, the carbon cycle becomes important I guess, but that is important to the environment, not my grow in perticular.  But mycorrizal fungi can help my plant survive droughts, and gain access to nutrients that they would not have been able to access.

I will admitt that I have no clue if the major benefits of supplementing carbs are just because it is such a great chelator or if it is creating some other more complex chemical reaction or if the carbs are just being uptaken and working themselves.  I somewhat suspect that it is somewhat like organics in that other chemical and elements are produced by the microbes that are not normally present in chemically feed mediums, which in turn leads to a greater terpine and flavonoid production, but now with the chelated nutrients being rapidly and efficiently absorbed, the plants get a boost in growth.  These are obviously just theories, but I have done a lot of research on the matter as my last few grows I have been trying to harbour beneficals. 

Lastly feeding the microoganisms, not the fungi, will directly produce nutrients that will be readily availible to plants, e.g, nitrogen/phosphorous/sulfer fixation, by only feeding sugars.

Honestly I am still not really convinced that plants can not uptake carbon or sugars, especially because I keep finding statements like this:

"Autotrophs are organisms that produce their own organic compounds using carbon dioxide from the air or water in which they live. To do this they require an external source of energy. Almost all autotrophs use solar radiation to provide this, and their production process is called photosynthesis. A small number of autotrophs exploit chemical energy sources in a process called chemosynthesis. The most important autotrophs for the carbon cycle are trees in forests on land and phytoplankton in the Earth's oceans"

Marijuana is an Autotroph, so that to me sounds like plants can absorb carbon from the air or the water.

Also please remember that I really didn't ever say that Sugars were absorbs as is.


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## massproducer (Aug 9, 2008)

Osmosis does not limit carbohydrates from being passed through the roots, only polysaccharides in very complex chains.  Osmosis says that a Hypotonic(higher water concentration) solution will make your plants roots uptake water and minerals, an isotonic solution (equal water concentration as the roots) will cause no water or nutes to be uptaken but also none will be lost.  And a hypertonic solution ( lower water concentration) will cause your plants to loose water and nutes due to osmosis.


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## POTUS (Aug 9, 2008)

So it would be a good time to mention that the below information shows no instance where any non-plant-made sugars are absorbed in any fashion what-so-ever by marijuana.

The sugars, as stated in this thread, do nothing to actually make any part of the plant "sweeter" or in any way add any sugar-like tastes to the plant from the non-plant-made sugars.

Yes, it's proven beyond any doubt at all that molasses in the right condition will help the plant reach it's most beneficial conditions to uptake nutrients, oxygen and water that will in turn, make the plant come closer to it's full growth capability.

The buds are larger because the plant is growing more efficiently. The buds have more resin because the plant is growing more efficiently.

No parts of the flavors of any added non-plant-made sugars is absorbed by the plant.

As far as I know, no side by side tests following the Scientific Method have been made to prove anything beyond what I've stated above.

If anyone has tests that they can present, I would love to read them.

The tests should include:

1. Proof that the flavor of a substance can be tasted in the plant flowers when smoked. A double blind test would prove this irrevocably. I don't believe that it will.

2. That the flowers are larger as a direct result of the molasses, in that any other type of favorable micro-organism booster wouldn't do exactly the same thing. I believe that a test of this type will show that molasses is just one way of many to do exactly the same thing.

Sorry folks, I still firmly believe that the interest and fascination with using sweeteners in a nutrients solution is mostly a human fondness for sweets.

Yes, certain sweets in the correct form will enhance plant growth.

No, it will not do anything to incorporate a "sweetness" to the flowers that is similar to the sweetness in the sugary additive. The plant will only grow better towards it's natural flavor and size capabilities.

Sorry Hick, I know I said I was staying out of this one, but I couldn't help myself.


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## massproducer (Aug 9, 2008)

Now while Stoney, you know I respect and honour your opinions always, I have to kind of disagree with some of your statements.  I have just started using Advanced nutrients, Sweet Leaf and I must say, it is doing everything it said that it would do, while it is not just Molasses, it is a major component.  I can not give you any other information other then practical.  I was a sceptic and would have never bought this but my hydro guy gave me a 1 liter sample, and it sure is making my flowers smell sweet, almost too sweet.

It somewhat makes sense to me that sugars would help with terpene development as terpenes melucar makeup is C5H8, so 5 carbon molecules and 8 hydrogen, sucrose is carbon-hydrogen and oxygen, so while i am not a scientist it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to me.  Also sucrose matches a plants carbohydrate profile exactly, it is a plant-produced sugar, just not that plant.  But I will just leave this one alone because I honestly do not know enough about the sweetening side of things.


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## Tom O'Bedlam (Aug 9, 2008)

stoner 420 said:
			
		

> do u just add the molasses  to plain water or to my nutrient water.. i grow in soil ... i am almost ready to start feeding them the nutrient and want to start the molasses at the same time ( experiment) just need to know how often to give it to them and how...... thanks



I have the EXACT same question. 

Good thread, btw.


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## POTUS (Aug 9, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Now while Stoney, you know I respect and honour your opinions always, I have to kind of disagree with some of your statements. I have just started using Advanced nutrients, Sweet Leaf and I must say, it is doing everything it said that it would do, while it is not just Molasses, it is a major component. I can not give you any other information other then practical. I was a sceptic and would have never bought this but my hydro guy gave me a 1 liter sample, and it sure is making my flowers smell sweet, almost too sweet.
> 
> It somewhat makes sense to me that sugars would help with terpene development as terpenes melucar makeup is C5H8, so 5 carbon molecules and 8 hydrogen, sucrose is carbon-hydrogen and oxygen, so while i am not a scientist it doesn't seem that much of a stretch to me. Also sucrose matches a plants carbohydrate profile exactly, it is a plant-produced sugar, just not that plant. But I will just leave this one alone because I honestly do not know enough about the sweetening side of things.


 
We have to remember the difference between the sucrose developed *by* the plant as opposed to sucrose that is *not* developed by the plant. We're discussing the resulting actions of a plant to the addition of sucrose to the plants environment, not the plants handling of the sucrose that it develops in the natural evolution of osmosis.

Semi-permeable membranes are very thin layers of material (cell membranes are semi-permeable) which allow some things to pass through them but prevent other things from passing through.

Cell membranes will allow small molecules like Oxygen, water, Carbon Dioxide, Ammonia, Glucose, amino-acids, etc. to pass through. Cell membranes will not allow larger molecules like Sucrose, Starch, protein, etc. to pass through.

When plant cells are placed in concentrated sugar solutions they lose water by osmosis and they become "flaccid"; this is the exact opposite of "turgid". If you put plant cells into concentrated sugar solutions and look at them under a microscope you would see that the contents of the cells have shrunk and pulled away from the cell wall: they are said to be plasmolysed.

Molasses (average NPK 1-0-5) contains potash, sulfur, and many trace minerals, it can serve as a nutritious soil amendment. Molasses is also an excellent chelating agent.

However, Plasmolysis is the separation of plant cell cytoplasm from the cell wall as a result of water loss. It is unlikely to occur in nature, except in severe conditions. Plasmolysis is induced in the laboratory by immersing a plant cell in a strongly saline or sugary solution, so that water is lost by osmosis. 

If onion epidermal tissue is immersed in a solution of calcium nitrate, cells rapidly lose water by osmosis and the protoplasm of the cells shrinks. This occurs because the calcium and nitrate ions freely permeate the cell wall and encounter the selectively permeable plasma membrane. 

The large vacuole in the center of the cell originally contains a dilute solution with much lower osmotic pressure than that of the calcium nitrate solution on the other side of the membrane. 

The vacuole thus loses water and becomes smaller. The space between the cell membrane and the cell wall enlarges and the plasma membrane and the protoplasm within it contract to the center of the cell. Strands of cytoplasm extend to the cell wall because of plasma membrane-cell wall attachment points. Plasmolysed cells die unless they are transferred quickly from the salt or sugar solution to water.

Thus, any concentration of sucrose into a plants feeding nutrients will detract from the plants growth due to the onset of Plasmolysis and it's results as shown in the example above.

The addition of properly fermented molasses or other sugary substances is an exception in that those fermented substances will not be the active ingredient of the nutrient base, but a substance which accelerates and promotes beneficial microbial action in the root area of a plant. 

This beneficial microbial action is what enables the plant to perform it's natural functions to the best of it's ability when the point of maximum nutrient, oxygen and water uptake is approached.

Some of the sources that this information is derived from include:

Dainty, J. (1976) Water relations of plant cells. In Transport in Plants II, Part A, Cells, U. Lüttge and M. G. Pitman, eds. Encyclopedia of Plant Physiology, New Series, Vol. 2. Springer-Verlag, Berlin, pp. 1235.

Green, P. B. (1968) Growth physics in Nitella: A method for continuous in vivo analysis of extensibility based on a micro-manometer technique for turgor pressure. Plant Physiol. 43: 11691184. 

Green, P. B., and Stanton, F. W. (1967) Turgor pressure: Direct manometric measurement in single cells of Nitella. Science 155: 16751676. 

Pickard, W. F. 1983. The ascent of sap in plants. Prog. Biophys. Mol. Biol. 37: 181229. 

Scholander, P. F., Hammel, H. T., Bradstreer, E. D., and Hemmingsen, E. A. (1965) Sap pressure in vascular plants. Science 148: 339346. 

Slavik, B. (1974) Methods of Studying Plant Water Relations. Academia, Prague. 

Steudle, E. (1993) Pressure probe techniques: Basic principles and application to studies of water and solute relations at the cell, tissue and organ level. In Water Deficits: Plant Responses from Cell to Community, J. A. C. Smith and H. Griffiths, eds., BIOS Scientific, Oxford, pp. 536. 

Tyree, M. T. 1976. Negative turgor pressure in plant cells: Fact or fallacy? Can. J. Botany 54: 27382746.


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## POTUS (Aug 9, 2008)

For the short version of what I posted in my previous post:

1. Does raw molasses help plants in any way?

NO IT DOES NOT. IT HARMS THEM

2. Will it help my MJ be sweeter or grow larger because I'm putting a sweet substance in it's nutrients?

NO IT WILL NOT. IT WON'T EVEN ABSORB THE STUFF IN IT'S RAW FORM.

3. Has what Stoney is saying been proven through Scientific Method and performed in repeatable testing?

YES

4. Is this argument over using raw molasses getting silly?

YES

5. Has this been discussed enough to dispel rumors and baloney from fact?

YES

6. Is this likely to be brought up again and all of this rehashed over and over?

YES

7. Is this starting to be funny?

hehehe   YES


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## ArtVandolay (Aug 9, 2008)

Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> ...
> I know that if I used that stuff here in the glades, I would have a house full of critters lapping it up and multiplying. Bugs own Florida. I just use a piece of it.



Well said lol.  I was picturing the entire southwest Florida crawling and flying bug population taking up residence in my grow box, with the rest of the 2 and 4 legged critters lining up waiting for the garage door to open.

But I am now wondering if corn syrup would have the same effect... surely less smell.  And don't call me shirly.


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## POTUS (Aug 9, 2008)

ArtVandolay said:
			
		

> Well said lol. I was picturing the entire southwest Florida crawling and flying bug population taking up residence in my grow box, with the rest of the 2 and 4 legged critters lining up waiting for the garage door to open.
> 
> But I am now wondering if corn syrup would have the same effect... surely less smell. And don't call me shirly.


 
Yes, corn syrup would do the same thing that raw molasses would. It'll either slow down the growth or kill your plants. No, it won't help them.

Yes, the bugs will love it.


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## massproducer (Aug 9, 2008)

I have seen no science.  Sucrose is made up of 2 simple sugars one of which you just stated can pass through the cell-membrane, sucrose is fructose and glucose.

Sucrose is sucrose no matter the source it is the same molecule. 

It is not just a concentrated solution of sugars that will cause plants to loose water through osmosis, it is any solution that is at a higher concentration then is present in the roots.  This actually most happens with saline solution from excess salt build up because of insoluble nutrients.

All organic matter must be broken down in order to become availible to the plants, so with an unstable sucrose molecule cantaining carbon, hydrogen and oxygen i would say it is silly to think that some of the original organic sucrose could not be broken down into hydrocarbons.  

You go from talking of a concentrated molasses solution to all the sudden detucting that any concentration will damage the plants cells.  A concentrated solution of anything, salts or sugars is called hypertonic, as I already stated.  You encounter Plasmolysis ONLY with a hypertonic solution.  This has nothing to do with Molasses, and all to do with the strength of any type of soluble solution that would come in contact with the roots.

Proteins, fats/lipids and carbohydrates are all the organic building blocks to inorganic nutrients, but they must be broken down first as roots can not uptake organic matter.  The fungi and microbes must break the molecular bond and free the inorganic compounds.  

I do not know exactly what sucrose gets broken down to in finality, i have been able to find no information about this matter.  You have not provided any new information by your posting calling my theories silly, you just infact reinforced what I said about hypertonic solutions, so thank you.  But like me, I don't think it is possible for you to say all of the possible compound that will be created by the decomposition of sucrose, until you know this then there is absolutly no way that you can tell me that sucrose does not get broken down into compounds that would affect terpene levels.  Can you tell me the precoursors to terpene development?  That fact is that your entire arguement is centered around a hypertonic solution, no one is talking about feeding in concentrations that would become hypertonic, also it would be easier to lose water through osmosis in a saline solution, then it would in a carbohydrate solution, for the simple reason that your plants roots mainly consist of carbohydrates, in order for the solution to become hypertonic the concentration would have to be higher then the concentration in the roots.

So if me thinking that a molecule containing carbon, hydrogen and oxygen could be broken down into smaller molecules containing carbon and hydrogen, or hydrocarbons is silly, then bro your entire post was totally irrelevent.  

*As i already stated 3 times now, it is not about can sucrose be absorbed, because it probably can't based on the fact that it is organic, but because it is organic and it is going to be broken down, it is more about, what elements or compounds are created from this decomposition process.*  Is one of these compounds hydrocarbon, which is a very real possiblity.  Because it is a fact that terpenes which contain the essential oils or smells within the plant are comprised of hydrocarbons.  Because you do not agree with something or see the logic in something does not make it silly, in fact if you opposing something in which you do not really understand, that too me is silly.

Honestly stoney i normally love to debate issue with you because I often understand your point of view, but this time seems like one of those times that it is really not going to be worth it.  You are not reading the information that I am providing or something, because your arguement was based on something that I already explained.  Hypotonic, hypertonic and Isotonic

Have you ever used something like sweetleaf from Advanced Nutrients?  If not then once again I think it is nieve to discredit something that others swear by.  Here is something that you could do, go out and buy some sweetleaf and use it for a few weeks and you tell me if you notice any differences, you have absolutly no worries because advanced has a no questions asked return policy, you can even bring in the empty bottle and your recipt and say I just didn't like it.  I have yet to hear any one bringing it back.


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## massproducer (Aug 9, 2008)

Corn starch and Blackstrap molasses are totally differnt things structurally.  Corn syrup is made from corn starch and contains mainly glucose, not sucrose.  It also does not have the same nutirent profiles as as blackstrap molasses does.

Cornstarch is made by exposing corn starch to enzymes to convert some of the starch to glucose.  Molasses is an extract from sugar cane or sugar beets, mainly sugar cane.  After 3 boils of the molasses you have blackstrap molasses, which is the most nutritious.


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Aug 9, 2008)

Unsulphured Black strap molasses, has been used by gardeners of many different types of plants for many years. 

However there are some things that can and cannot be expected with it. 

IT will not,

Make buds sweeter, produce more resin, or THC whatever myth is now floating around. 

It will, make a great addition to a feeding program that is lacking in micronutrients. Also added to a tea or nutrient solution that is bubbled to increasse microbe populations that are beneficial to your plants. 

I haven't heard the same about corn syrup, but you never know.

I use it during flowering. And in small amounts. But do i notice much of a difference in the finished product. Not really.

I haven't done comparison grows but it sure didn't HURT my plants. By any means. DID it help? I can't say, but i haven't anything to compare the results to except the grow before it and it wasn't fully organic. so... apples and oranges. ANyways, just my 2 cents.


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## MrPuffAlot (Aug 9, 2008)

as far as im concern, mollassas DOES give taste.

its not hear say.  Ive grown first hand, and have smoked same strain,
same grow with and without mollassas.  And there is
deffinately a difference.

i have no scientific proof, but the plant is absorbing some Sweetness
as its drinking its H2O.


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## Mr.Wakenbake (Aug 9, 2008)

By the way, maybe this would fit nicely in the organics section. As that's where this conversation has headed. ANyways...


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## POTUS (Aug 9, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> Honestly stoney i normally love to debate issue with you because I often understand your point of view, but this time seems like one of those times that it is really not going to be worth it.


 
I just spent some time on the phone with a friend who teaches plant biology in a well known university. After a long, very detailed and sometimes angry explanation of things discovered more recently than my education in his field encompasses, he's convinced me that large strides have been made in the areas we're discussing. He even offered to come knock it into my head for you after reading our posts via email.

The new methods he discussed are mostly under the umbrella of fruit improvement, and he admitted that he had no knowledge of the same methods being used in marijuana studies, but he did say that what I know of the subject is now much out of date.

It seems that I'll have a nice supper of crow tonight.

Given that my information seems to be out of date, and practical experimentation has shown value in what I've believed to be harmful, I concede the argument to you and those who have insisted on the possible benefit of utilizing sucrose based additives into a nutrient system.

Whereas I fully believed it to be a soil improvement only, it seems that I'm out of date and incorrect.

While holding my previous beliefs, I stood firmly. Now that I've learned that my education has been surpassed by more recent discoveries, I readily admit my lack of knowledge on the subject.

Old dogs *can* learn new tricks.

Damned expensive phone call too.  

I'm not even telling you or my friend how to find each other. I need no more knocks on my head than I've had over the years.

Now, please excuse me, as I have a lot of pie to eat...

Peace


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## massproducer (Aug 9, 2008)

I am truly humbled Stoney, you are truly a great person.  I honestly can say that this has just really sparked my imagination recently as I started growing organically in coco coir.  

It is funny because I thought I was moving away from chems and science but growing efficiently in an all organic medium is very technical and scientific.  It is also hard because so little is known, it is like the wild, wild, west.  

I am glad that were able to come to a level of understanding as we always do.  Everyone please understand though what everyone said is totally relevent and basically true.  What stoney said is totally true organic matter can not be uptaken, but IMO, it becomes very interesting when we consider all of the possibilities of new inorganic carbon compounds.  And it becomes even more interesting when we consider what these things will do to our plants when they latch on to other macro or micro nutes.

I must say wow, stoney, you always make me work, I learned so many new things today from both the board and my research...and I love it.  

Good night bro


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## Hick (Aug 10, 2008)

.. Thanks guys!.. nice to see a mature, educational discussion, with varied opinions carried out, without attacks, flames or hard feelings.


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## willPow3r (Aug 13, 2008)

POTUS said:
			
		

> I just spent some time on the phone with a friend who teaches plant biology in a well known university. After a long, very detailed and sometimes angry explanation of things discovered more recently than my education in his field encompasses, he's convinced me that large strides have been made in the areas we're discussing. He even offered to come knock it into my head for you after reading our posts via email.


Is there any way you could provide some of the information your friend gave you? I can find lots of studies that have been done on the efficacy of sugar additives to soil fertilizers, but they are all in relation to microbial enhancement only (e.g., growing plants in the arctic, cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1421950).

It would be interesting to know what the secondary and tertiary effects of "soil sweetening" are, from a plant biologist's perspective.


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## zipflip (Aug 13, 2008)

wow my sentiments exactly wat hick said. i just wish my ex wife and i could have debated  like u guys  before the divorce  LOL


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## zipflip (Aug 13, 2008)

i was always wonderin on all the hype of this molasses/corn syrup thing as well but this was very informative as well as entertaining watchin all go at it  in debate mode lol.  but thanks for all the info on the whole molasses/syrup thing.


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## bombbudpuffa (Aug 13, 2008)

Great read. I learned a lot. Stoney and Mass should have debates more often. Keep on slinging those facts out so I can learn more.


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## POTUS (Aug 13, 2008)

willPow3r said:
			
		

> Is there any way you could provide some of the information your friend gave you? I can find lots of studies that have been done on the efficacy of sugar additives to soil fertilizers, but they are all in relation to microbial enhancement only (e.g., growing plants in the arctic, cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1421950).
> 
> It would be interesting to know what the secondary and tertiary effects of "soil sweetening" are, from a plant biologist's perspective.


 
Much of what he told me concerned the uptake of sucrose by plants that are altered or hybrid to increase their ability to utilize sucrose via the roots. Lots of enzyme and hormone additions and balancing of the chemical structure of the plants to enable them to increase the uptake without the negative effects noted in the past.

Hardly any of it had to do with the addition of sucrose based substances to plants in what we would call their "natural" state.

In the natural state, the amount of sucrose that a plant can take up or exist in without harmful effects is slight and must be diluted with water at the proper ratio.

The experiments he spoke of were to increase the after effects of increased "sugar" levels in plants that are used for flavoring. The increase allows for more product from less fruit, resulting in MO MONEY per/pound of fruit grown.

The ratios of water to sucrose depend on the plant. I remember reading somewhere, what the proper ratio was, but I don't remember where it was. At the time, I thought it was bovine excrement, so I didn't bother to save the data.

Sorry.

If I run into it again, I'll post it.


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## willPow3r (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks for the information.


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## Mutt (Aug 13, 2008)

> The ratios of water to sucrose depend on the plant.



and what stage the plant is in.
also mollasses after the lil microbeasties break it down it provides a great source of potassium. Which is why a lot of organic growers use it in flower 

but its good to use in all stages if making up organic teas.
but it MUST be unsulphered. as sulphur kills microlife.

Corn syrup i would not use as stated by someone else. It is not a simple suger like mollasses.


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## Mutt (Aug 13, 2008)

good link here
http://soils.usda.gov/sqi/concepts/soil_biology/soil_food_web.html


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