# AlienBait Tries LEDs, Part 2



## AlienBait (Oct 6, 2007)

As some of you know, I've been trying to do a decent grow with LEDs. So far I'm not impressed. The last time I tried, it was with a small plant in a 16 oz cup growing in soil and using 13 Watts worth of LEDs. The yield was about 2 grams.  More info at this thread:

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10461

Well, I'm at it again. This time, I'm using a 2 liter soda bottle with the top cut off. The medium is 50/50 perlite/vermiculite and I will be hand-watering with Hydro nutes. There will be 9 LED arrays this time for a total of 30 Watts. The manufacturer states that each array uses 5 watts, but when I measured the power draw, it came out to just over 3 watts per array (or bulb if you prefer).

Last time, I started from seed, but this time I am using a clone. In fact, I am using a clone from the regenerated plant I used last time. I left a couple of buds on it and re-vegged to get some clones. It was so frosty that I didn't want to lose it.

As a control, I will also be growing another clone using the same method and the only difference is that it will be under my 400 Watt HPS.

Now, before anyone gets on my case, I already know that the HPS grow will blow the LEDs away. I just want to see by how much.

Up to this point, I vegged the plants under a couple of 2 foot fluorescent tubes for about 3 or 4 weeks (I lost count) and started flowering under their respective lights about 12 days ago. The strain is White Satin from Mandala.

I'll try to keep this thread updated every week or two. Comments, suggestions, and questions are welcome. Just be polite. 

The Pictures:

1) The two plants side by side taken last week. The one on the left is being grown under the HPS and the one on the right is under the LEDs. Notice that the HPS plant is already a little bigger than the LED one.

2) Close up of the HPS plant.

3) Close up of the LED plant.

4) The LED lights. Sorry about the blurry pic, the camera had a hard time focusing.

5) The LED plant in its box.


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## DLtoker (Oct 6, 2007)

I wouldn't say that LEDs are blown away by anything.  Focus on what perks growing with LEDs have to make your grow better...  Certain forms of LST will work amazingly.  

I have been considering buying a bunch of LEDs more and more lately as the prices are really starting fall... as they should.  

GL man.  I am anxiously looking forward to seeing your progress!


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## Pot Belly (Oct 6, 2007)

Interesting concept AB.  Have heard of LED grows, this one will be great since you have a control group.

Does the LED have a lumen rating?  Is there heat from the lights?  What is the advantage of the LED's for growing?

What strain do we have?

Thanks

PB


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## AlienBait (Oct 6, 2007)

DLtoker said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say that LEDs are blown away by anything. Focus on what perks growing with LEDs have to make your grow better... Certain forms of LST will work amazingly.


 
You are right, I shouldn't be saying that.  We'll see how this one goes.

I thought about LST, but instead decided to use some of the lights for "side lighting" instead of having them all on top of the plant.


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## AlienBait (Oct 6, 2007)

Pot Belly said:
			
		

> Interesting concept AB. Have heard of LED grows, this one will be great since you have a control group.
> 
> Does the LED have a lumen rating? Is there heat from the lights? What is the advantage of the LED's for growing?
> 
> ...


 
Did I not mention the strain?  Sorry about that.  It is White Satin.  It is a clone from the re-vegged plant I used in the first 16oz cup grow thread.

"Does the LED have a lumen rating?"
From what I've seen, they don't measure the lights from LEDs with lumens.  In fact, I'm not sure exactly how the measure the light output. I've seen a couple of different ways the manufacturers describe the amount of light put out by LEDs.  

Since lumens is a measurement of what they eye can see, a Yellow light would get a higher lumen rating than a Red or Blue light (even if they are putting out the same number of photons) because the eye has evolved to see better in that spectrum.​"Is there heat from the lights?"
Not really much heat at all. In fact, I am growing in a box that is 18" x 18" x 30" with no fans at all.  Just a few holes near the bottom and a few holes near the top.  The temps are staying around 75F.​"What is the advantage of the LED's for growing?"
1)  Lower power consumption.  Since the LEDs are monochromatic, you can choose which colors (or wavelenghts) you want to use.  Plants absorb light in the red and blue spectrums, so you can get just the colors that the plant needs.
2)  Very little heat (see previous), so it doesn't hurt the plant if it touches the lights.  You can get the lights right on the plants so that very few photons are wasted.

One big disadvantage is the price.  The lights I am using cost around $130 and I am using them on only one plant.  For that price, I could buy a 400W HPS and fill a whole closet with plants.  The prices are coming down, like DLToker mentioned, but they need to come down a whole lot more to replace a HPS.​Hope that helps.


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## Pot Belly (Oct 6, 2007)

Good write-up on the LED.  Thank you for your time on the subject.  

You did mention the strain, but I looked 2 times at first and didn't see it originally.  My bad, bro......  It looked like a "White" strain to me.  The leaves seem to have 'sharper' serrations on the whites.

PB


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## Runbyhemp (Oct 7, 2007)

Would love to give leds a go  .. very pricey for a decent array though


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## mastersativa (Oct 12, 2007)

I am digging the side by side run. I am sure most of us have been thinking about the leds, just because you can get them in blue and red. I will be watching this grow pretty close. Keep up the good work AB, and keep em green!


Oh yeah another thing, I always hear that black lights are useless for growin, but doesn't it look like the red and blue led mix are emitting purple light, just like a black light? Maybe it's just my eyes, but looks the same to me.


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## Stoney Bud (Oct 12, 2007)

Congrats on the controlled grow, AlienBait.

The "stealth" capability of LED's with their very low power consumption and their usable light per/watt and low heat are the distinct advantages.

When the cost for a high quality, high grow spectrum, prebuilt panels come down to a comparable price with HPS, I'll be buying some with no doubt.

The price has been coming down nicely. It's about half what it was last year and it seems that growers are on the minds of those who supply LED's now.

The interest and purchase of Marijuana growers is a real part of the market for lights now. All of the manufacturers are aiming their products directly at us.

After all, nobody grows an inside vegetable garden on a large scale. Lot's play with it, but the Marijuana grows that are inside have gained the International attention of light makers.

The next few years of new lighting products and improved lighting products will show lower prices and more availability of real, high tech, low energy usage LED grow lights.

As soon as possible, I'll be buying enough for a 3.5 x 5.5 grow area.

I have lots of experiments to perform...

All of them involve smoking the results...

Good luck to you man!!!!


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## AlienBait (Oct 14, 2007)

Well, it's been a couple of weeks, so I figure it is time for an update. 

I had some nute/PH issues with the HPS plant. Don't know why because I've been using the exact same nutes and ratios with both plants and they are clones.... In any case, it's under control now.

The buds are growing on both plants, but the HPS buds are much bigger, however, the LED plant is bushier and has more and bigger leaves.  Hmmmm...

As of today we are 2.5 weeks into flowering.

The Pictures:

1) Both Plants: HPS on the left, LED on the right.
2) Top view of the HPS plant
3) Top view of the LED plant.
4) HPS plant
5) LED plant
6) HPS
7) LED


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## AlienBait (Oct 14, 2007)

mastersativa said:
			
		

> Oh yeah another thing, I always hear that black lights are useless for growin, but doesn't it look like the red and blue led mix are emitting purple light, just like a black light? Maybe it's just my eyes, but looks the same to me.


 
They are not the same.  Black lights emit most of their energy in the UV spectrum.  The only reason they look purple is that some of the light spectrum emitted is in the visible range, so the manufacturers coat the glass with a coating that tries to block out the visible spectrum.  Since they can't block ALL of it or it would block the UV, they figure a little visible violet light getting out is o.k.  It's only a little, and like I said, MOST of the energy coming out of the "Black" light is in the UV range.

With the Red and Blue LEDs, all the energy being emitted is in the Visible red and visible blue spectrums.  When they mix, the color is actually Magenta, not purple.


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## md.apothecary (Oct 15, 2007)

So far to me... it looks as though the LED lighting is staying pretty close to an HPS, and for a small grower like myself, I wonder with all my ventilation problems and the HPS in the closet getting over 95 degrees... I think it might be time for me to reconsider an LED grow.

I've found a site that will sell standard bulb screw in LEDs in 3w bulbs in both red spectrum and blue spectrum. Obviously blue would be the veg, and red for flower. But because the light source can be ultra close to the plant, it would make it easier in a grow cabinet as well with a lot less light penetration to worry about.

Again from me looking at this I see advantages. I've never grown with LED's so this is not a biased opinion, just my pesronal opinion.

1) LOT less heat. 
2) Much less power consumption.
3) HPS bulbs put off a wider spread of light, but it's only about 10% light output and 90% heat.
4) HPS and other HID lights requiring ballasts (unless digital) put off noise, and MORE heat.

Obviously, heat is an issue with me...  But compared to your awesome pics, it looks like I might just have to sell my 400w HPS and get some LED's.

just found this... 

http://www.ledgrow.eu/ 
start at the bottom of the page and read UPwards...


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## J_Rizzle (Oct 15, 2007)

Thank you for your time and effort to conduct an experiment like this. Im personally putting my money on the LED being the better smoke. 

You are truly a pioneer in the underground culture of indoor cultivation. 
Best of luck to you my friend.

The LED plant isnt as tall, but it does look bushier and a bit "heavier" (seems like the best word).
​


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## md.apothecary (Oct 15, 2007)

maybe it's just me, but the LED plant looks a deeper green, and to me, that means healthier. Most likely due to the heat difference....


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## AlienBait (Oct 15, 2007)

Yeah, the LED plant does looks greener and bushier, but the buds are bigger on the HPS plant.  I don't think it is because of any heat issues.  The LED plant is staying around 75 degrees and the HPS is around 80, so there isn't really that much difference.

Like I said in the earlier post, the HPS plant had some PH issues, but that is now under control, so it might green-up a bit.

I was talking to another LED grower and he suggested that I reduce the blue light.  I couldn't really do that because the red and blue LEDs are on the same light, but I did notice that some of the lights had a fainter red color.  On closer inspection, it looks like some of the lights have cheaper and dimmer red LEDs than others, so I moved the lights around and took out some of the bluer lights so that the LED plant has more red on it.  That SHOULD make the buds grow better.  I guess we will see.


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## dj_destroyer (Oct 16, 2007)

Alien, LEDs, plants.... awesome! im gonna watch this one for sure. keep the updates coming ; )


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## dj_destroyer (Oct 16, 2007)

hahahaha.

"You are truly a pioneer in the underground culture of indoor cultivation."


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## upinarms (Oct 16, 2007)

Seems like with enough LED lights, even at the high cost has the potential to pay for itself over, and over. when you think about it, that lower utility bill each month is enough to make me go out and buy some. Thanks , who needs NASA when we got AB


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## AlienBait (Oct 16, 2007)

I don't know about pioneer.  There are quite a few other growers out there who have been growing with LEDs long before I came along.  I'm still learning.  

Now, my Cold Cathode grow; That one might be a first.  I haven't seen any one try to grow with those yet. :hubba:


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## md.apothecary (Oct 16, 2007)

I am going to be getting some of these lamps myself. i wanted some help real fast though from someone who understands them a little better.

These will be my FLOWERING lamps... and they look EXACTLY like yours.. they may even BE yours, I see you have 8 lamps, and this auction is for 8 lamps same configuration.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220159559442

However, I had a question about the "BLUE" in the bulbs. You mentioned removing them... were you able to do this successfully? Or if not, are they TOO hot to wrap the blue led's with say electrical tape?

My next question was... these 8 lamps are supposed to cover 32sq. ft. My main decision I guess comes down to picking the best product...

Here are the contenders....

8 LAMPS FROM EBAY
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220159559442

OR 3 LAMPS FROM GROWWITHLEDS.COM
http://www.growwithleds.com/ledkitsbulbs.htm
(*XB 100 LED Starter Kit - for lighting 2 to 3 sq. ft.)

*I am leaning more towards the ebay ones... for the amount of watts, sq. ft, and it's more economical.... I can build the hanger myself. BUT i want to remove the blue LED factors.


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## AlienBait (Oct 16, 2007)

When I said I would remove the bluer lights, I meant the whole lamp, not just the blue LEDs.  That is, the lights that have the dimmer red LEDs.

I would not buy the ones I have again.  I am not very happy with the quality.  Like I said, it looks like some of these lights have cheaper and dimmer red LEDs.

The ones you linked to on ebay are not the same as mine.  Those have more LEDs per light than mine does, so they look better.

*You will still need some blue during flowering, just not as much, *so don't remove all the blues*.*

If you don't mind soldering your own, you could get these for less money:

http://homegrownlights.com/14wled.html

Those lights have the right ratio of red/blue to flower with. You can then buy an extra blue-only 4 Watt LED array or two from the second company you mentioned to be used during Veg.  But if you are going to use the to flower only, you can skip the blue-only lights.  

Hope that helps.


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## md.apothecary (Oct 16, 2007)

hmm... i've never soldered before.... haha i have a solder iron and such, but never tried soldering!


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## md.apothecary (Oct 17, 2007)

i ordered some of the premade bulbs because i don't want to risk bad soldering! 

Can you tell me what the best configuration would be? What do you think... 6 bulbs on the tops and 2 setup for below the branches? Or should I do all 8 on the tops? I see you had them arrayed all around the plant... how did that turn out?


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## Mutt (Oct 17, 2007)

Hey Alien have you shoved a light meter under them yet? Just curious what kinda output your getting.
When I get some cash might try a CPU case grow with this slapped all in it.


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## bombbudpuffa (Oct 17, 2007)

Congrats AB! This is a great thread...i'll be watching.


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## AlienBait (Oct 18, 2007)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> Can you tell me what the best configuration would be? What do you think... 6 bulbs on the tops and 2 setup for below the branches? Or should I do all 8 on the tops?


 
I'm not quite sure.   If you have only one plant, then I would do it the way I am doing it now.  If you choose to put them all on top, the I would LST the plant or grow more than one plant.  The LEDs need to be VERY close to the plants to maximize their potential.



			
				md.apothecary said:
			
		

> I see you had them arrayed all around the plant... how did that turn out?


 
We'll know in about 5 or six weeks.


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## AlienBait (Oct 18, 2007)

Mutt said:
			
		

> Hey Alien have you shoved a light meter under them yet? Just curious what kinda output your getting.
> When I get some cash might try a CPU case grow with this slapped all in it.


 
No, I don't have a light meter.  I would like to know as well.  Perhaps I should buy one.  Then again, I'm a little short on cash at the moment...


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## NewbieG (Oct 18, 2007)

Hey AlienBate, I love what your doing with this, and I actually had some questions for you if you wouldn't mind answering them for me. Now because I know very very little about LED's I'm very confused at how to compare any HID to the LED's. Since you can't use wattage, what are you suppose to compare... lumens? I guess my question is, what kind of set up for LED's do you need to be compatible with a 400 watt, 600 watt, and 1000 watt system for MH/HPS System, and how much would it cost. After looking at some prices for LED system, I'm seeing 10 watts, 7 watts, etc., but I have no idea what these mean? Sorry to jack your thread, I'm just VERY interested in what your doing


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## octobong007 (Oct 18, 2007)

ok, quick question on the led's.  i've been checking them out for awhile and have noticed some are "colored led lights" and some are "led lights with a colored filter"...what i want to know is are they the same?  or is the one with the colored filter weaker?  and thanx for all the input and usage and posting the results of the led's.


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## md.apothecary (Oct 18, 2007)

the best bet is to go the TRUE color route, never believe in filters. It's still a white light going through a filter. Not to mention, by it going through a color filter, it DOES actually lessen the intensity.

Light through glass DOES take away slight wavelengths out of the picture. So the more you filter, the less penetration you'll receive. 

IMHO, I think it'd be best to stay away from filters and caps.


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## AlienBait (Oct 28, 2007)

NewbieG said:
			
		

> I guess my question is, what kind of set up for LED's do you need to be compatible with a 400 watt, 600 watt, and 1000 watt system for MH/HPS System, and how much would it cost.


 
Hi NewbieG, Sorry for the delayed response.  But to answer your question, I really don't know the answer on how to compair the two different types of lights yet.  You are right, Lumens and Watts doesn't quite work, but you also have to grow the plants differently.  With LEDs, the lights are right on (almost touching) the plants, and the HPS is around a foot away.  The manufacturer of the lights I bought says that 4 of the arrays I have should equal a 500 Watt HPS (if one existed). Well, I've got *8* of them on one plant and as you will see in my next post, they are mistaken. 

There is another manufacturer that says their light is equal to a 400W HPS, but that one costs $1200, and I am not about to spend that kind of money on something I've never seen anyone grow with.


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## AlienBait (Oct 28, 2007)

octobong007 said:
			
		

> ok, quick question on the led's. i've been checking them out for awhile and have noticed some are "colored led lights" and some are "led lights with a colored filter"...what i want to know is are they the same? or is the one with the colored filter weaker? and thanx for all the input and usage and posting the results of the led's.


 
md.apothecary is right.  Don't use filters.  Get the lights that emit the right frequency.


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## AlienBait (Oct 28, 2007)

Update time. :hubba: 

Looks like the LED plant is way behind the HPS plant. While we have buds forming and growing on the LED plant, the HPS plant has about 10 times more smokable goodness. Also, it looks like the LED plant may be out growing the box it is in. I didn't think they would grow that tall since they were pretty short when I started the whole thing. I may have to resort to a little bondage to bring the top down. The HPS plant is in a 6 foot tall closet, so it has plenty of room.

Notice that the LED plant is a much darker green than the HPS plant. Not sure what that means...

Once again, for those just tuning in, the strain is White Satin being grown in 50/50 perlite/vermiculite, hand-watered with "Vita-Grow" nutes at full stength. The plants were clones from the same mother.

The pictures:

1) The Plants side by side. HPS on the left, LED on the right.
2) Again, but with a 1 gallon jug for size comparison. The HPS plant is 24" tall and the LED is 19" tall
3) HPS
4) LED
5) HPS
6) LED
7) HPS Close up
8) LED Close up
9) HPS Top
10) LED Top


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## BluntFullOfKush (Oct 28, 2007)

Damn i almost missed it. But im here now. there looking great


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## theCre8or (Oct 28, 2007)

This is a really great experiment.  Well done.  

Has anyone done anything like this to compare CFL's?  I'm sure HPS will win again, but I wonder if the differences will be as dramatic.


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## Mutt (Oct 28, 2007)

Excellent comparison Alien :aok:


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## audix2359 (Oct 29, 2007)

Hey AB, how often are you watering?  I got my LED box started last Friday and my soil is very moist.  Temps are around 72.  I can't imagine watering this week with what I'm seeing.


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## AlienBait (Oct 29, 2007)

audix2359 said:
			
		

> Hey AB, how often are you watering? I got my LED box started last Friday and my soil is very moist. Temps are around 72. I can't imagine watering this week with what I'm seeing.


 
My temps are about the same.  I water about twice per week.  I am not growing in soil, but rather a 50/50 mixture of perlite/vermiculite.


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## audix2359 (Oct 30, 2007)

Thanks for the info, you definitely got a green thumb!


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## DankCloset (Oct 30, 2007)

oh yeah the differance will be dramatic with cfl's compared to hps, looks good, keep it green


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## md.apothecary (Nov 1, 2007)

My curiousities as to WHY your veg growth looks nicer with the LED but the flower-power is more readily noticed with the HPS. 

This to me is strange, could it have something to do with the direct heat transfer from the HPS? I know you said at one time that you had too much blue, and you removed some, but maybe you don't have enough? 

Also, do you have a picture of the plant under the HPS? I saw your LED grow, but was curious to see if you had any reflective mylar or other similar items with your HPS setup? I was thinking that the HPS might be reflective off more surfaces where as the LED might be absorbed by the white surfaces it looks like you have in your LED grow area? Since it's a more narrowed lightwave?

Hmm...

On another note, I will be trying to setup my LED get together tomorrow, but am still waiting for my poly to come in to setup a divider/reflector.


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## AlienBait (Nov 1, 2007)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> My curiousities as to WHY your veg growth looks nicer with the LED but the flower-power is more readily noticed with the HPS.


 
I wish I knew the answer to that one.  I think that the plants need more than just red and blue to fully flower.  There might be some other light frequency that triggers hormones or something.  My original plan was to try adding some different colored LEDs into the mix.  So I bought some Warm White, infra-red, yellow, aqua, ultra Violet and green LEDs, but I seem to have misplaced them.  Once I find them, I'll start another grow some time in the spring to see if the different colors actually do make a difference.

The manufacturer of these particular lights says that 4 of them are equivalent to a 500 Watt HID light, but I am not seeing that.  That may be correct in the veg cycle only.


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## md.apothecary (Nov 2, 2007)

I have an infared lamp... I should try that later myself, it came with some camera equipment for night vision. pretty cool...

However, I think you're closer to the mark with the violet and green spectrums, as I have seen those lights advertised as PLANT lights as well, and if i remember correctly, I think they were LED's also!! 

Hmm... there is a  WHITE led on ebay advertised as a grow light.


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## audix2359 (Nov 2, 2007)

I saw one LED grow on another site where the guy used Halogen light during flowering.  I can't remember the reasoning but there was some logic behind it.  From what I recall, the whole crop suffered root rot or something so his grow was scrapped early.


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## AlienBait (Nov 2, 2007)

audix2359 said:
			
		

> I saw one LED grow on another site where the guy used Halogen light during flowering. I can't remember the reasoning but there was some logic behind it. From what I recall, the whole crop suffered root rot or something so his grow was scrapped early.


 
I've seen a couple of people do that.  What they do is they have the halogen turn on for the last 15-30 minutes of the light period.  The theory is that the plants will detect the far red spectrum being turned off and that is suppose to signal to the plant that "night" time has started.  It's a strange theory, but they think it works.  Their results, however, don't seem much different than mine.


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## md.apothecary (Nov 3, 2007)

To me, it makes no sense at all. If the LEDs are still on at this time, the PLANT is going to know it's not being tricked because that specific lightwave generates the chemical reaction within the plant. The plant doesn't use EYES to see the differences in the color temps/lights, it uses photosynthesis.

waste of time and money in my opinion to use a halogen for anything.


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## imsoborednow (Nov 7, 2007)

Nice gro AB.......

Those LED's of yours just dont cut it.......

As you say probably alright for slow veg....

They're designed for houseplants anyhow?..

which are mostly shade loving plants....

I think the theory right ...just need more uuummmph!

That cold cathode grow you got going looks good too......:aok:


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## AlienBait (Nov 10, 2007)

Well, we are at the 6-week flowering point.  Only 2 more weeks to go( + or - a few days).
I had to tie the LED plant down a little because it was outgrowing it's box.  Other than that, the plants have just been doing their thing.  
You might notice a little browning on the leaf tips.  That's because I was trying to green-up the HSP plant a little by adding a little more nitrogen to the solution.  It didn't work, just burned the leaves and REALLY burned the leaves on the LED plant, so I went back to the standard mixture.
The HPS plant is 25 inches tall (not counting the pot).  The LED plant is tied down so it is 20 inches tall (not counting the pot).
Here are the pictures:
1) Both Plants:  HPS plant on the left, LED plant on the right.
2) HPS Plant
3) LED Plant
4) HPS
5) LED
6) HPS
7) LED
8)  One of my LED arrays blew up.  One of the capacitors in the circuit board exploded and blew the light open.  I had an extra one, so just replaced it.
9)  Here is the circuit board.  There is capacitor insulation all over the boards.  I was not around when it happended, so I don't know how loud it was.  Must have been somthing though, because those lights are glued together and hard to open.


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## audix2359 (Nov 10, 2007)

They're both looking nice AB.


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## 85cannabliss (Nov 11, 2007)

hi AB, my opinion on this after reading it from the start, is that you should use LEDs for veg, and maybe the first week of flower, then switch to HPS for the buds to fill out. the LED plant looks alot healthier than the HPS 1. that maybe the problem you had earlier with nute/PH, but _this_ experiment shows that LED for veg & HPS for bud.

great white satins you got there mate, enjoy *85C*


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## Mutt (Nov 11, 2007)

Nice comparison yet again alien!!
Those Caps stink to high heaven when they pop don't they.  
I've had em pop and fizzle and other ones sound like a fire cracker. Glad nothing got damaged bro. Lookin forward to week 8


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## AlienBait (Nov 11, 2007)

85cannabliss said:
			
		

> hi AB, my opinion on this after reading it from the start, is that you should use LEDs for veg, and maybe the first week of flower, then switch to HPS for the buds to fill out. the LED plant looks alot healthier than the HPS 1. that maybe the problem you had earlier with nute/PH, but _this_ experiment shows that LED for veg & HPS for bud.


 
At this point it looks that way, but I am really trying to get away from using the HPS.  The heat and electricity costs can be very high.  

Also, I am thinking of doing Micro-Grows so I will need something that that will work in a small box.  

The Cold Cathodes look promising.  Perhaps I could veg with the LEDs and flower with the CC lights.

The LEDs work great for keeping my Mother plants nice and healthy.


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## AlienBait (Nov 11, 2007)

Mutt said:
			
		

> Those Caps stink to high heaven when they pop don't they.


 
Yes, they do.  I've blown them out before also and fried a few circuit boards in my time.


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## Mutt (Nov 11, 2007)

AlienBait said:
			
		

> Yes, they do. I've blown them out before also and fried a few circuit boards in my time.


 
In Lab we used to wait until the other dude was away and reverse the cap...funny when they hit the juice on those lil microfarad caps....puff of the nastiest smell right in the ole face. :rofl:
We were bored alot in lab. LOL

CRT's is what always bit my arse...yep, can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs 

(ignore me I'm fried)


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## AlienBait (Nov 15, 2007)

Well, I had two more lights blow-up. I am going to end the experiment before any more blow up and start a fire. I am going to recommend that if any one is interested in buying LED lights, DO NOT buy them from Gro-Tek. So far 3 lights blew-up and I will not use them any more. I might take them apart and use the components to build my own arrays. 

I already moved the LED plant into the closet with the HPS and will finish up the last two weeks in there.

I will keep this thread updated until harvest.  

I apologize for any inconvenience.


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## bombbudpuffa (Nov 15, 2007)

That blows AB. Thanks for the heads up though. Any idea what could be causing them to blow?


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## AlienBait (Nov 15, 2007)

bombbudpuffa said:
			
		

> Any idea what could be causing them to blow?


 
All three had the same capacitor blow, so I am going to guess that it is just not rated for the circuit they designed.  Or it could just be a bad design.

I am going to un-solder the LEDs and make my own boards when I can find some free time (which could mean a year from now, LOL!).


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## md.apothecary (Nov 16, 2007)

It could also be power surges in your line. This is known to blow cheap capacitors. A simple spike will "pop" a capacitor causing it to explode, and my guess is that the pressure of the sealed flood light would cause them to literally explode.

I bought some LED's and I am hoping I don't have a similar problem, I got mine off eBay, so I don't know where they originated.


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## audix2359 (Nov 16, 2007)

AlienBait said:
			
		

> I am going to recommend that if any one is interested in buying LED lights, DO NOT buy them from Gro-Tek.



I second that.  I got some LED's from Gro-tek and although they have not exploded, I'm not too pleased with the results (could be me though).  I am looking around for grows with the LED UFO though; that looks pretty interesting.


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## AlienBait (Nov 26, 2007)

I've been doing some thinking...:holysheep: 

We have seen in this thread that the red and blue LEDs are good for the veg phase. We got nice dark green foliage and the plant grew very nicely. However, when it came time to flower, we got very little. Remember, the manufacturer claims that 4 of my LED lights are equal to a 500Watt HID light. We have shown that, while that may be true in Veg, for flowering something more is needed.

We all know that HPS lights do a great job at flowering MJ and before the LED lights blew-up, the HPS light was out-producing the LED lights around 8 to 1 in terms of bud production. 

My theory on this is that the plants need more than just red and blue light to fully flower, so I thought I would take a look at the output spectrum of the HPS light (an Eye-Hortolux in this case):






As you an see from the graph, the HPS does not peak in either of the places that the LED manufacturers tell us we need: around 650 for red and 450 for blue. 

Here is a graph they like to post showing what frequency chlorophyll absorbs to prove their point:






It is not even close to the HPS spectrum and yet, the HPS is a bud producing machine. So, once again, I suggest that we need to think there is more to flowering than what the chlorophyll wants. We need to replicate the spectrum of the HPS light and forget about only using Red and/or Blue.

So, I think we need to get some aqua, orange, yellow, and yellowish-green LEDs and cut back on the blues and reds (keep them, just use a smaller percentage). Here is the ratio I would suggest, based on the HPS spectral chart:

10 Yellow-green (around 575nm)
10 Yellow (around 590nm)
10 Orange (around 610nm)
5 Red (around 625nm)
2 Deeper red (around 660nm)
2 Aqua (around 500nm)
1 Blue (around 470nm)

We may not be able to find LEDs in these exact wavelengths, but if it is close, I'm sure we can get by.

For experimenting, we can try pulling out different colors to see if they are really needed. But I would like to see a grow using this ratio of LEDs first just to see if I am on the right track.

While I was looking up LEDs, I found some "Warm-Whites."

Here is the spectral output for the Warm-White:






I went ahead and superimposed this chart onto the HPS chart and got this:






As we can see, it matches pretty well with the HPS spectrum, with the exception of the Aqua (around 500nm). If we use the Warm-White, we can always add a few Aqua LEDs to fill in the gap.

I think to make any progress in bringing LEDs into the MJ growing world beyond experiments, we need to forget about only using Red and Blue and look at what is working now (HPS), then try to replicate it.

Unfortunately I will have to stop for a while , but I wanted to get my thoughts out there while they were fresh, so when I am ready to give them another try, I can come back to this thread. I also wanted to post this in case some one else wants to give LEDs a go (in addition to those who are already doing it).


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## md.apothecary (Nov 26, 2007)

I wanted to add that my experiment has come crashing down in my other thread. Unfortunately, there was something wrong in the setup.

However, my next experiment is going to be with CFL's. I wanted to throw these images in as well to the mix. 

CFL vs. HPS

CFL GE "DAYLIGHT" BULB





HPS





CFL GE "Warm White"





Theoretically, the CFL's are right around the best for flowering, and I have seen some pretty awesome grows with JUST CFL lights. This particular CFL has the aqua needed, as well as the 520nm - 660nm that is required according to AB's charts and graphs!!! 

The issue with CFL's is penetration and lumens per watt, but this issue is simply solved by adding supplimental lighting below the canopy and not just at the top like a HPS.


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## AlienBait (Dec 31, 2007)

Yes, I know..... It's been a while since the last update.  So,I thought I had better finish this thread before the end of the year (a couple of hours to spare, LOL!).

As mentioned earlier, I had to finish the LED plant under the HPS because the LED lights kept exploding.  It took another 3 weeks to finish off both plants.  

I had a little mold problem on the HPS plant, even though there was a fan blowing right on it from about a foot away.  It did not affect a large area so I just cut the bad stuff out.  Mandala (the breeder) says you should check for mold and they are right.  That was one thick cola. :hubba: 

So, here are the final pictures:

1)  The plants:  HPS on the left and LED on the right.  The leaves are yellow because I used nothing but water for the last week.

2)  HPS Plant.

3)  LED Plant.

4)  The harvest:  HPS on the right, LED on the left

5)  All jarred up:  After drying and curing, the HPS Yield was 49 grams (would have had more if I didn't have a mold problem), and the LED was 24 grams (almost exactly half).

6)  Buds, HPS on the left, LED on the right.  Notice how the LED bud is much frostier.  At first I thought it was mold, but on closer inspection, it just has more trichs.    THAT is an interesting outcome....  Something else that is interesting is that the LED buds have very little smell or taste.  The HPS buds taste and smell like weed, but I can't really smell anything from the LED buds.

So, there you have it.  Hope you enjoyed the show.


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## octobong007 (Dec 31, 2007)

how bout a smoke comparison?  hps to led, quality of high...taste...fruitynesslessness?  quantity's good, but ya gotta go for taste.  in your opinion, is the yield worth what the power usage was?


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## AlienBait (Dec 31, 2007)

octobong007 said:
			
		

> how bout a smoke comparison? hps to led, quality of high...taste...fruitynesslessness? quantity's good, but ya gotta go for taste. in your opinion, is the yield worth what the power usage was?


 
Well, I already mentioned that the LED plant has no smell or taste that I can make out.  Now, I do have a medical condition that keeps me from smelling/tasting things all that well, so you have to factor that in as well.  However, my wife also says she can barely smell the LED plant.

The HPS plant has a clean, slightly "hashy" taste to it and the skunky smell is noticeably stronger...in other words, I can smell it (LOL)  .

As to the quality of the high, I smoked them both for the first time last night, so I can't tell which plant has what affects.  I will have to smoke one of them one day and the other the next day after cleansing my mental palate and make notes.  I will have to wait a couple of days before I can do that.


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## Puffin Afatty (Dec 31, 2007)

_AWESOME thread dude...simply wonderful info...Happy New Year!!!_


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## md.apothecary (Jan 1, 2008)

in my experience, more trichs generally meant more resin which in turn would indicate more aromatic properties of the plant, if both HPS and LED plants were same genetically, the one with more trichs would smell/taste stronger right?

Very strange... i would assume that even with more trichs, the LED was not powerful enough to fully synthesize the THC levels inside the plant thus making it a less potent bud... however, I could be totally wrong. I'e don't even know what iM doing up at 3:!0 in the morning on news year day! 

looks cool, but do let us know the potency!


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## umbra (Jan 1, 2008)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> in my experience, more trichs generally meant more resin which in turn would indicate more aromatic properties of the plant, if both HPS and LED plants were same genetically, the one with more trichs would smell/taste stronger right?
> 
> Very strange... i would assume that even with more trichs, the LED was not powerful enough to fully synthesize the THC levels inside the plant thus making it a less potent bud... however, I could be totally wrong. I'e don't even know what iM doing up at 3:!0 in the morning on news year day!
> 
> looks cool, but do let us know the potency!


 
I think your logic is flawed. This is not to say you are wrong, only the way to which you came to your conclusion about smell and the number of trichs. Smell of cannabis is actually very complex. There are species with less THC content that have an overwhelming smell and others with excessively high levels of THC with little or no smell. So if you had alot of THC you would have a lot of smell. What about the different smells. Certain smells are just more potent. There's the berries in the house smell and there's a dead skunk in this house somewhere smell.
What I think what is significant here is that smell could be wavelegth dependant. That's an important correlation.


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## md.apothecary (Jan 2, 2008)

umbra said:
			
		

> I think your logic is flawed. This is not to say you are wrong, only the way to which you came to your conclusion about smell and the number of trichs. Smell of cannabis is actually very complex. There are species with less THC content that have an overwhelming smell and others with excessively high levels of THC with little or no smell. So if you had alot of THC you would have a lot of smell. What about the different smells. Certain smells are just more potent. There's the berries in the house smell and there's a dead skunk in this house somewhere smell.
> What I think what is significant here is that smell could be wavelegth dependant. That's an important correlation.



My correlation was based on the SAME genetics of plant, as I said, if the species of plant is the same, the genetics and characteristics should be as well. Your berries ... let's say strawberries, will taste and smell like strawberries each time you eat them. So will your dead skunk... my white rhino will taste and smell like my white rhino, but not my belladonna.

If the plants where of two totally different plants of course smells would be different and/or taste as well, therefore the whole experiment would be flawed because you wouldn't really be able to compare growing experiences with two totally different plants with different genetics.

EXAMPLE: If he took cuttings from the SAME mother, they SHOULD produce exactly the same results unless conditions were different, and hypothetically speaking, if he did this, lack of smell and taste would be a discrepency to be considered was the result of the growing conditions, and the increase in trichs would then be a byproduct of said conditions. This is where the research would be continued later to determine if trichs are created more so using LEDs than HPS.

Maybe.... just MAYBE... LEDs produce more trichs in the plant, which would ultimately be good for those hash makers


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## AlienBait (Jan 2, 2008)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> EXAMPLE: If he took cuttings from the SAME mother, they SHOULD produce exactly the same results unless conditions were different, and hypothetically speaking, if he did this, lack of smell and taste would be a discrepency to be considered was the result of the growing conditions, and the increase in trichs would then be a byproduct of said conditions. This is where the research would be continued later to determine if trichs are created more so using LEDs than HPS.


 
Just so you know, the two plants were in fact clones taken from the same mother at the same time.  They were both vegged together under CFLs.  The nutes and growing style were exactly the same as well.  The only difference between the two is that one was flowered under LEDs for the first 6 weeks (until the lights started blowing up) and the other was flowered under the HPS.  For the last 3 weeks, they were both under the HPS.

Now since they were both under the HPS for the last 3 weeks, it could be that aroma and trichome development is determined early in flowering.

This is a very interesting and unexpected result.  I'll have to do some more playing around to see what happens.  

Too bad my grow room is closed for the winter.


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## Sin inc (Jan 2, 2008)

hey fam here some of what i found doing the reseach for leds if i find more i willlet yall know i don't want to hi jack ab thred so heres the link to 
High Powered 24 LED Aquarium, Reptile & Dome & Utility Lights
http://autolumination.com/fixtures.htm
there are some pics of the led that is being wrote about

Plastic chrome with self adhesive backing and 30" wire leads wide angle 100 degree oval leds

Measures 3-1/2" diameter x 1-1/4" thick

Operates at 10-14.5 volts.  Power supply not included.

Great for Aquariums, Reptiles, RV's, Trailers, Campers, Cars and Boats!!!

Completely Water-Proof. Comes with sticky back plus dual recessed screw mounts.
Uses only 120 milliamps & produces 480,000 mcd 


hey fam i was reading up on leds because ab looked like he need some reseach done so here it is the link that will help you with the mesurement with leds
http://www.ngineering.com/LED_Calculators.htm
heres a better one
http://www.lite-knight.com/lumencalculator.htm
now i am not to good at math if some of the fam could take alook at these website and tell us in english what you came upwith it would help alot i did the r&sow somebody do the math. i hope this helps the fam


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## umbra (Jan 2, 2008)

md.apothecary said:
			
		

> My correlation was based on the SAME genetics of plant, as I said, if the species of plant is the same, the genetics and characteristics should be as well. Your berries ... let's say strawberries, will taste and smell like strawberries each time you eat them. So will your dead skunk... my white rhino will taste and smell like my white rhino, but not my belladonna.
> 
> If the plants where of two totally different plants of course smells would be different and/or taste as well, therefore the whole experiment would be flawed because you wouldn't really be able to compare growing experiences with two totally different plants with different genetics.
> 
> ...


 


But...if LEDS produce more trichs then they would have more smell not less. AB may be onto something interesting here. Thanks for your insight, I understand your point of view.


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## tom-tom (Jan 2, 2008)

hey ailen bait why u closein ur grow room for the winter is it out  side our somethin???shure wont be the same guess ill have to wait for summer hu for ur next grow???


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## AlienBait (Jan 2, 2008)

There are a couple of reasons I close down for the winter, the most important of which is that I will be traveling a lot for work and don't want to leave the plants unattended for weeks at a time.

Come springtime, however, I've got a few things planned. :hubba:


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## md.apothecary (Jan 6, 2008)

umbra said:
			
		

> But...if LEDS produce more trichs then they would have more smell not less. AB may be onto something interesting here. Thanks for your insight, I understand your point of view.



Right... this goes back to what I said the first time around. I said that more trichs generally means more resin and smell, but that LEDs may be producing trichs that are not fully maturable because the light might have something to do with the characteristic properties of the resin inside the plant? If the potency turns out to be weaker in the LED grow, then this would explain it, but if there is no smell/taste/more trichs and the potency is the same or stronger than the HPS plant, then there would be something very whacky going on with LED grows. It would be stealthy in more than one way... 


Originally Posted by *md.apothecary*
_in my experience, more trichs generally meant more resin which in turn would indicate more aromatic properties of the plant, if both HPS and LED plants were same genetically, the one with more trichs would smell/taste stronger right?

Very strange... i would assume that even with more trichs, the LED was not powerful enough to fully synthesize the THC levels inside the plant thus making it a less potent bud... however, I could be totally wrong. I'e don't even know what iM doing up at 3:!0 in the morning on news year day! 

looks cool, but do let us know the potency!


_


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## umbra (Jan 6, 2008)

AlienBait said:
			
		

> Just so you know, the two plants were in fact clones taken from the same mother at the same time. They were both vegged together under CFLs. The nutes and growing style were exactly the same as well. The only difference between the two is that one was flowered under LEDs for the first 6 weeks (until the lights started blowing up) and the other was flowered under the HPS. For the last 3 weeks, they were both under the HPS.
> 
> Now since they were both under the HPS for the last 3 weeks, it could be that aroma and trichome development is determined early in flowering.
> 
> ...


 
MD,

I find the info very interesting, esp since the last 3 weeks were done with HPS. AB might be right about the early flowering period. So it should be repeatable. At the moment I am not able to do the research, but maybe in the future I can try to do a little more on my end.


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## AlienBait (Jan 6, 2008)

O.K., I've got an update for you guys.

With the LED weed, while it has more trichs, the stone is not as strong and does not last as long.  It is more of a head high, whereas the HPS weed is more of a full body high.  Neither one is couch-lock, but the HPS high is deffinately much better.

With the LED weed, it is like I chopped too early.  Unfortunately, I did not look at the trich color before chopping.

This could mean a couple of things:  It takes longer to finish when flowering with LEDs or like md.apothecary said, "_the LED was not powerful enough to fully synthesize the THC levels inside the plant thus making it a less potent bud..."_

Perhaps I need to add a UV light?  I have a few UV LEDs.  Guess that would have to be another experiment.  Time to get soldering, LOL!


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## Sticky_Budz (Jan 6, 2008)

Hey AlienBait just wanted to say thanks for sharing this interesting grow with me it was fun to watch and learn from:hubba: i havent been around much lately do to personal issues but when i do come around i allways look forward to checking out your grow bro. Thanks again and great grow peace


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## I'ma Joker Midnight Toker (Jan 6, 2008)

Check these lamps out on ebay- look awesome, think I've changed my lighting ideas:
http://cgi.ebay.com/840-LED-GROW-SPOT-LIGHT-BULBS-RED-SPECTRUM-5-pk-L-E-D_W0QQitemZ180177545055QQihZ008QQcategoryZ42225QQcmdZViewItem


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## I'ma Joker Midnight Toker (Jan 6, 2008)

You should check out this seller, lots of LED's...love this set-up even more...

http://cgi.ebay.com/900-LED-Grow-Light-4-panels-RED-BUD-4-pk-HPS-MH-400-600_W0QQitemZ180177089117QQihZ008QQcategoryZ42225QQcmdZViewItem


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## Midnight Toker (Jan 6, 2008)

Those look like good lights, hey you pretty much took my name! haha ^^


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## AlienBait (Jan 6, 2008)

I'ma Joker Midnight Toker, Thanks for posting.  I like HTG Supply and bought my HPS from there.  However, I can tell that you have not read the entire thread.  If you did, you would know that I am convinced that you need more than just Red and/or Blue lights and that I will not buy any more manufactured LED light arrays until I see some proof that you can get a yield comparable to a HPS.

I am currently putting together my own LED array with what I think would work better for flowering MJ and I'll start testing it in March (when I will have more time). Perhaps this time next year, HTG will be selling my lights. :hubba:


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## tom-tom (Jan 9, 2008)

nice lookin plants alienbait the leds are cool lookin 











HAPPY SMOKIN TOM TOM
AND HAPPY SMOKIN


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## nouvellechef (Feb 9, 2010)

Bad English or nor not homey, clean your words up. Better do it before a mod sees it. That's some harsh wording.


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## legalize_freedom (Feb 10, 2010)

Nouvelle  ???/W???T???F????  dude ...you seeing ghosts?...lol...I see your digging up bones....lol..but man really!!!  pass it here and give me a hit!


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## kalikisu (Feb 10, 2010)

A.B. that was a great experiment. Wonder why the ufo's gave you frostier buds?


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## Tact (Feb 10, 2010)

Great grow man, very professional approach to data, ME LIKEY.


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