# LED/CFL Combo?



## jackson1 (Nov 29, 2009)

Hello again,

Going from my odor control thread now that i am comfortable with that to lighting. I would like to hear opinions regarding the use of the 90w Hydroponic UV UFO LED Grow light and also use CFL's cool white for veg and move to warm for flowering.

The question is what size CFL's should i go with and how many?

Grow space is 3' W x 2' D x 5' T

I understand the argument of HPS/HID lighting, etc. but through research i've landed on the UV LED and CFL's for several reasons but mostly for heat elimination, stealth grow conditions, energy savings and longevity. 

Should I be looking at the lower watt CFL's or two 105 watt CFL'sfor example or what to complete the lighting system?

Thanks for your opinions/information.


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## BBFan (Nov 29, 2009)

Hey there jackson1!

Glad you got your odor problem solved! 

What is a UV UFO LED?  It's the UV that's throwing me off- it usually (in lighting terms) refers to ultra-violet.


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## jackson1 (Nov 29, 2009)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Hey there jackson1!
> 
> Glad you got your odor problem solved!
> 
> What is a UV UFO LED?  It's the UV that's throwing me off- it usually (in lighting terms) refers to ultra-violet.



Thanks BBfan. Actually the UV is for ultraviolet light. The 4th Gen UFO LED is using UV LED's I believe in blue. This is supposed to be the way to go if using LED lighting.
This LED UV UFO light is supposed to have won the 2009 Growboys LED class.

I can't post a link yet but Google, LED UV UFO Grow Light and it will come up.


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## leafminer (Nov 29, 2009)

The guy that runs UFO demonstrably writes utter crap if you see my other thread. The CFLs will provide more usable light for a lot less money. The key is to hit the sweet-spot on the price/lumens curve. That's usually around the 25W size. You can make a petal-like CFL lamp with 4 x 25W CFLs, that's 100W of CFL. It will outperform LED 90W lamps, I am sure. 
HOWEVER, it is absolutely essential to fit the ghetto-rig CFL lamp with good - I mean Mylar - reflector(s). (You can make your own). Otherwise you waste most of the light. And 6300K CFLs work great in flower, believe me.
I use a home-made 100W CFL as fill-in with my twin 150 HPS, it works great.


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## jackson1 (Nov 29, 2009)

leafminer said:
			
		

> The guy that runs UFO demonstrably writes utter crap if you see my other thread. The CFLs will provide more usable light for a lot less money. The key is to hit the sweet-spot on the price/lumens curve. That's usually around the 25W size. You can make a petal-like CFL lamp with 4 x 25W CFLs, that's 100W of CFL. It will outperform LED 90W lamps, I am sure.
> HOWEVER, it is absolutely essential to fit the ghetto-rig CFL lamp with good - I mean Mylar - reflector(s). (You can make your own). Otherwise you waste most of the light. And 6300K CFLs work great in flower, believe me.
> I use a home-made 100W CFL as fill-in with my twin 150 HPS, it works great.



Interesting. I will have to read more into this i see. Actually, I've pretty much decided that i will do just CFL's with a nice hood or several clamp lights loaded with CFL's. Thanks for the tips.


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## SPEARCHUCKER (Nov 29, 2009)

Let the LEDs supply the other feeds of light. And get a additional 2700 color temp CFL to supply. 2700s are 80% red feeding, which the plant feeds most off.

The smaller the bulbs, the more heat when trying to equal a certain wattage. 
Cause of the bases supplying the strike to light the gas generates heat also.


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## jackson1 (Nov 29, 2009)

SPEARCHUCKER said:
			
		

> Let the LEDs supply the other feeds of light. And get a additional 2700 color temp CFL to supply. 2700s are 80% red feeding, which the plant feeds most off.
> 
> The smaller the bulbs, the more heat when trying to equal a certain wattage.
> Cause of the bases supplying the strike to light the gas generates heat also.



This set up would be good for veg and flowering?


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## SPEARCHUCKER (Nov 29, 2009)

Be better for flowering. During the flowering stage, a plant doesnt even use blue feeding anymore until the final week. Mainly red, and some orange. So best case when adding is to just aim at hitting the Red as hard as possible.


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## jackson1 (Nov 29, 2009)

SPEARCHUCKER said:
			
		

> Be better for flowering. During the flowering stage, a plant doesnt even use blue feeding anymore until the final week. Mainly red, and some orange. So best case when adding is to just aim at hitting the Red as hard as possible.



Hmm, what do you mean by a plant doesn't use blue feeding anymore? did the plant stop accepting blue as an option or has it been found that blue has now effect until the last week only? 

Just when I think i understand, i don't.


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## SPEARCHUCKER (Nov 30, 2009)

Only needs blue in stages of change I believe. During photosynthesis.


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## BBFan (Nov 30, 2009)

Hey there _jackson1_!

I looked up the UFO you mentioned and though it says UV, I can't see where there getting the uv spectrum from- I couldn't find any real technical info on it- just basic sales mumbo jumbo.

Doesn't mean it wouldn't be helpful for your grow though.  To me, it seemed more designed for flowering (mostly red spectrum), but again, very little technical info available.  I don't use LED's as I think the technology has a little ways to go yet.  Everything I've read is that they lack penetration.  But the same is said of cfl's.  It doesn't mean it will not help you grow great plants.

No disrespect to _Spearchucker_, but the plant will continue to use the blue (400-480 nm) spectrum throughout it's life.  A balanced spectrum is always more desirable throughout the life of the plant.

You'll probably only fit 2 or 3 plants in your space.  With proper added side lighting, you could end up with great results.  Check out ****-Dogs grow journal- 1 plant under cfl's.  He did an excellent job.

Good luck to you.


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## leafminer (Nov 30, 2009)

BBFan is right. Plants can use full spectrum right until the end. But if you could pick up an HPS that would really make a diff. If you haven't got much cash take a look in Craig's list or on EBay, I saw someone sold a 400W Lowbay HPS out of a factory for $40 yesterday, that's cheap enough. Those things can be modded to be remote ballast or even cool tube.


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## SPEARCHUCKER (Nov 30, 2009)

Blue is sugar feeding. Plants store sugar, also can bring in from root feeding. Blue is also a more intense light spectrum, and the plant absorbs it much easier. 
So the LED will provide enough blue on its own. Why I say hit the red so hard.
Why dump on more blue if it can only reach a certain point before it simply stores it up. Pour on the Red Sodium feeding.


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## skoomaman (Nov 30, 2009)

what is the difference between 1mil,2mil and 3mil

hXXp://www.mylarstoreonline.com/50ft.html


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## Growdude (Nov 30, 2009)

skoomaman said:
			
		

> what is the difference between 1mil,2mil and 3mil
> 
> hXXp://www.mylarstoreonline.com/50ft.html



3 mil is 3 times as thick as 1 mil, and 2 mil is twice as thick.

I would go with 2 mil.


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## jackson1 (Nov 30, 2009)

Thanks for the replies. I love the learning curve but at times it is confusing as everyone has their own opinion i'm finding as to what is better. I want a stealth grow of course so i think i am sticking with either a nice full spectrum set of CFL's or will try the LED UV/CFL combo. I may not get pro yields but that's ok, this is for personal use so i am not that worried about it. 

Also, BBfan. From what i understand the blue has the UV lights in the LED but like you said, there is not much proof of that from reading about them. Although, if they can produce UV light in CFL's i'm sure that they can with LED's but the questions is does it work better if so? I guess the only way to know is to try,

I don't have budget restraints but do want to be smart about it and not over buy or have a revolving door of equipment that i either dont like or doesnt work well. 

Talking this out helps a lot though so please feel free to keep it coming.


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## livinitup (Nov 30, 2009)

my votes to go with the small cfls 20w or 25  find the lumm for the bulbs i got mine from the dollor store i use the 20w im doing a micro  grow first time ever space is 3 sqf heres a male taken out yesterday day 28 from seed only did 3 beans the female show on day 20 and now is full of preflowers good luck


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## BBFan (Nov 30, 2009)

jackson1 said:
			
		

> Also, BBfan. From what i understand the blue has the UV lights in the LED but like you said, there is not much proof of that from reading about them. Although, if they can produce UV light in CFL's i'm sure that they can with LED's but the questions is does it work better if so? I guess the only way to know is to try,


 
Good Evening Jackson1 (it's evening here at least)-

Actually, as far as UV lighting goes, for me anyways, the jury is still out on it's efficacy and it's affects on trich production. I'm currently harvesting some blueberry that I gave 1 plant UVB lighting throughout the grow. Is it loaded with trichs? Yes, but so are the others. We'll see when it's cured. I'm using a self-ballasted MV lamp.

I know those UVB fluoros are a bit expensive and lack any penetration, so I don't know if they'll help you. Being your first grow, I wouldn't bother- so many other things to work through that will have far greater impact on end results.

I don't think I've helped you much here, but I do wish you good luck on your grow! Be safe.


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## leafminer (Dec 1, 2009)

Anyone claiming that they are selling UV LEDs is talking out of their rear end. 

Here is a point of scientific logic for you:

Low pressure sodium lamps are extremely efficient (more lumens/watt than any other type of lamp) AND cheap . . . but nobody uses them for grows . . . because they don't work too well. And they put out a single frequency (line) spectrum. Just like LEDs.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 1, 2009)

jackson1 said:
			
		

> ...I want a stealth grow of course so i think i am sticking with either a nice full spectrum set of CFL's or will try the LED UV/CFL combo. I may not get pro yields but that's ok, this is for personal use so i am not that worried about it...



Lumen for lumen, CFLs will put out more heat than a HPS.


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## jackson1 (Dec 1, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Lumen for lumen, CFLs will put out more heat than a HPS.



True but you are wasting a tremendous amount of HPS lumen's aren't you? If say your HPS is throwing 55K lumen's, you are only getting around 6800 usable lumen's in that spectrum? Is this about right? This is what my research is telling me and if that's the case i'd rather go with CFL's instead and use only the lumen's needed and not waste the ones you don't.

I am also looking into the Cree super bright LED's now. The Cree LED's by far out perform the production market LED's that are all over the net. I think it is going to be to pricey still yet but i think you will save that in electric compared to say an 400 watt HID.

I haven't ruled out anything yet but he Cree LED's are very interesting. 

My deal is if i can get close to the same results and even though i'm spending a little more on the front end i'm ok with that. I am looking for effeciency and low heat and will make for a higher upfront cost probably for the Cree after the first growor soon there after and the logivity is not even compairable. So there are pro's and con's of each lighting system available but the bottom line is you have to decide what means the most to you and choose acordingly.


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## jackson1 (Dec 1, 2009)

Because i really just don't know.

1) Can the air in your grow box circulate 24/7 meaning running the intake fan and exhaust fan all the time or is this a bad idea do to CO2 reasons? 

2) What if anything do you do for extra CO2? and is this step highly needed or just best?
I, mean would spraying with carbonated water work or am i way off?

3) This one might be funny but when you start a grow inside do you follow the natural sun up sun down of each day or do you create your own lights on and lights out time period to reflect your schedule? Meaning, it could be day time but your grow box is on the night time cycle? Are there any draw backs either way?


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## BBFan (Dec 1, 2009)

jackson1 said:
			
		

> Because i really just don't know.
> 
> 1) Can the air in your grow box circulate 24/7 meaning running the intake fan and exhaust fan all the time or is this a bad idea do to CO2 reasons?
> 
> ...


 
Howdy _Jackson1_!

First, let me say I hear you about usable lumen output from different light sources. Caused me to do some experimenting on the grow I'm harvesting. I was looking more at the higher efficiency of the HPS versus the better spectrum of the MH. Principle's the same. I ran a thread on the differences.

There is a point though, IMHO, that intensity/penetration far outweigh PAR output and spectrum- until you reach critical mass (for lack of a better term), it's sheer intensity. But I think you need to be up at 10K lumens /sq ft first. Just my thoughts.

The Hemp Goddess is a talented and experienced grower and she is IMHO, correct. She knows her stuff.

As far as your questions..

1. Absolutely circulate your air 24/7. Your plants will love it.

2. CO2 is tricky and meant for really experienced growers (I don't use it). I don't think any of the supplements or home remedies do any good either. Exchanging your air 1-3 times a minute will give you all the CO2 and O2 you'll need for proper photosynthesis and respiration.

3.  You control the environment of your grow.  Your schedule should dictate lights on / lights off.  The only considerations IMHO are security first and how it may affect temperatures second.  Security first!  

Just my thoughts.  Have fun!


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## jackson1 (Dec 1, 2009)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Howdy _Jackson1_!
> 
> First, let me say I hear you about usable lumen output from different light sources. Caused me to do some experimenting on the grow I'm harvesting. I was looking more at the higher efficiency of the HPS versus the better spectrum of the MH. Principle's the same. I ran a thread on the differences. I will look this thread up.
> 
> ...


BB, thanks for hanging with me and bringing me along, i appreciate it very much. I'm starting to quickly pick it up but there is just so much or can be so much to know depending on how and what you are growing it's crazy right now. Also, there are so many opinions about most of it, it is hard to know what's right or what's most right or the best way for what you are doing. 

Thanks, bro.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 2, 2009)

jackson1 said:
			
		

> True but you are wasting a tremendous amount of HPS lumen's aren't you? If say your HPS is throwing 55K lumen's, you are only getting around 6800 usable lumen's in that spectrum? Is this about right? This is what my research is telling me and if that's the case i'd rather go with CFL's instead and use only the lumen's needed and not waste the ones you don't.



If that was the case, then CFLs would far outperform HPS in bud production.....and they don't.  If that was the case, then 4 26W CFLs (7000 lumens) would give you better bud production than a 400W HPS....but it doesn't.  .

I don't quite understand all this "usable lumen" stuff.  It seems like this is only coming from LED and CFL light manufacturers.  IMO, the proof is in the pudding.  Research is good, but in actual practice, lumen for lumen, a HPS will out yield CFLs every time and create less heat and cost less to operate in addition.


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## Growdude (Dec 2, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> If that was the case, then CFLs would far outperform HPS in bud production.....and they don't.  If that was the case, then 4 26W CFLs (7000 lumens) would give you better bud production than a 400W HPS....but it doesn't.  .
> 
> I don't quite understand all this "usable lumen" stuff.  It seems like this is only coming from LED and CFL light manufacturers.  IMO, the proof is in the pudding.  Research is good, but in actual practice, lumen for lumen, a HPS will out yield CFLs every time and create less heat and cost less to operate in addition.



So true, Time and time again people come to the same conclusion.


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## BBFan (Dec 2, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I don't quite understand all this "usable lumen" stuff. It seems like this is only coming from LED and CFL light manufacturers. IMO, the proof is in the pudding. Research is good, but in actual practice, lumen for lumen, a HPS will out yield CFLs every time and create less heat and cost less to operate in addition.


 
There comes a point where it does make a difference. LPS will outperform HPS on a lumen for lumen basis- so if usable lumens are not important, then we should use LPS to grow. But even though LPS puts out twice the lumens on an initial basis and nearly three times the lumens on a maintained basis, they are simply not effective in plant growth as they do not put out enough "usable" lumens for photosynthesis. I learned that doing research.  

Certainly you are correct in comparing hps to cfl.  Additionally, you are correct based on current widely available technologies.  But things are changing and change is not always bad.

Lumens are strictly based on what the human eye can detect- they have nothing to do with plant growth.


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## wjf9838 (Dec 2, 2009)

I am actually doing the EXACT same grow right now. I have one 90w ufo and 9 cfl's and my plants are doing great. They 8 of the 12 are now over 5 ft and are going strong.  I liked the cfl's as they provide heat for the evaporation while the ufo provide the most healthy lighting spectrum the plant can get. Use cool blue bulbs mixed with "warm" color during the flower stage at a 1:2 ratio (blue:red) and then switch to all "warm" or red wavelengths during the flowering. If you have any questions or ideas let me know as I have experienced a lot from it being my first successful grow but I also have a lot more to learn and would like to hear how you did things differently/same.


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## jackson1 (Dec 2, 2009)

Alright, I'm sold. I'm just challenging different lighting systems and asking questions, not doubting. Makes total sense. 

Alright, so i've begun the HPS/MH system search. First thing is choosing what wattage. I can easily grow with a 250 watt in my space but have read that a 400 watt was more efficient? Is this correct?

Next, what are the recommended HPS light systems? Brand, bulb, etc? I was looking at HTG and they seem to have nice options for the money. Are the HTG light set up's a good choice or should I look to another brand? Digital of course. Lumatek, Digital Greenhouse, any favorite over another? Type hood? I'm thinking easy cool 6 for the hood? yes? No?. 

Thanks, guy's.


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## jackson1 (Dec 3, 2009)

So far here is where i'm at.


2x3x5'2" grow cabinet i will make out of ply wod
Light - 250 or 400 watt HPS/MH 

Grow system - MP's Coco Coir Buckets or a Fox Farm soil. 

Fans - Intake, exhaust, circulation. Any idea what CFM range i need for this size for each?
Order control - build the DIY carbon filter, DIY mushroom bucket
Venting - Out through the attic with flex duct and out the center peak vent through the carbon filter.
Nutes - Fox Farm, make your own plant tea. 

PH tester - Digital
Reflective material - Mylar, flat white
What else?


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## Kupunakane (Dec 3, 2009)

Hey there THG,

  I thought that this might make some interesting reading;

2000 lumens sq. ft./21500 lumens sq. m. = Absolute minimum for growth. You won't get much from this, especially after the plant has grown a bit. Not really enough to flower well.

3000 lumens sq. ft./32250 lumens sq. m. = Pretty Good growth. Enough light for the entire light cycle, although your yields may be lower. 
4000 lumens sq. ft./43000 lumens sq. m. = Very good growth.  Once you pass around 3500, growth rate and ability goes up fast.

Over 5000 lumens sq. ft./53750 lumens sq. m. = Optimal growth.  Dense growth in all stages.

Keep in mind that having flat white walls, and keeping your lights close to your plants keep you from wasting lumens.

   It's not just about having light, it's about getting the light to your plants.  IMO, people often overbuy lights.  This creates more light, but the light isn't always hitting the plants, and that creates more heat and ventilation issues, which causes stress problems.  

That's why it's still impossible to tell anything about growth or yield based on just lumens. A guy that has an HPS that is too far away from plants that have no walls near them and no ventilation may get poorer results than a grower with CFLs that uses reflectors and has a couple of lights under the canopy in a well-ventilated spot. 

HPS lights are often said to generate more heat than CFLs. That's not really true...it's just that they are more efficient at producing light, and there's a smaller surface area on the bulb itself for the resulting heat to dissipate. That means more ventilation. But the higher amount of lumens per watt means you use less power and get greater light penetration through your canopy. Still, I'm a believer that well used CFL's can give you great grows with less ventilation and heat issues. If you're in a small to very small area (less than 4 sq. ft./.25 sq. m.), I'd consider the advantages of CFLs in that way.

But HPS is more efficient. A typical 250 watt HPS bulb/unit will produce about 27,000 lumens. I've seen people use a 250w in a 3' x 3' room and get good results. That's 9 sq. ft. which = 3000 lumens a sq. ft. (Really, a 250w HPS is better in a smaller area.) to give you an idea of the difference in efficiency of CFL vs. HPS, think of this.

23w CFL = 1600 lumens = 69.6 lumens/watt
30w CFL = 2000 lumens = 66.7 lumens/watt
40w CFL = 2600 lumens = 66.3 lumens/watt

compared to 

150w HPS = 14000 lumens =  93.3 lumens/watt
250w HPS = 28000 lumens =  112 lumens/watt
400w HPS = 50000 lumens =  125 lumens/watt
600w HPS = 90000 lumens =  150 lumens/watt

So you can see that HPS is more efficient than CFL...and as you get into bigger HPS bulbs, it becomes a _lot_ more efficient. There's also fewer hassles with multiple cords and saved money on your energy bill. If you've got a big area and/or you can deal with the heat and ventilation, HPS is the way to go in flowering. Still, I'm a believer in small HPS lights and combo HPS/CFL grows.

KK


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## jackson1 (Dec 3, 2009)

Thanks, KK. That is great info, thanks for taking the time. 

Any input on the HTG HPS light kit's?


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## BBFan (Dec 3, 2009)

wjf9838 said:
			
		

> I am actually doing the EXACT same grow right now. I have one 90w ufo and 9 cfl's and my plants are doing great. They 8 of the 12 are now over 5 ft and are going strong. I liked the cfl's as they provide heat for the evaporation while the ufo provide the most healthy lighting spectrum the plant can get. Use cool blue bulbs mixed with "warm" color during the flower stage at a 1:2 ratio (blue:red) and then switch to all "warm" or red wavelengths during the flowering. If you have any questions or ideas let me know as I have experienced a lot from it being my first successful grow but I also have a lot more to learn and would like to hear how you did things differently/same.


 
Welcome to MP _wjf9838_!

That's some pretty big plants you got going on.  You're obvoiusly doing a lot more things right then just sufficient lighting.

Tell us more about your grow- can you put up any pics?

Thanks!
-BBFan


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## jackson1 (Dec 4, 2009)

OK, the more i read the more i'm convinced that HID is the way to go. I am now thinking of going with a 250 watt MH and a 250 watt HPS, digital ballast's, for veg and grow. Grow books talk about this being the optimum way to grow some Kind Bud. 

I was also looking at HPS lights and found that with some of the brighter bulbs at 250 watt, they are adding 25% - 30% more blue light to the spectrum. If I opt for the higher cost bulb that has this, would this be close to as good as having both HPS/MH lights going at the same time using one 400 watt HPS? 

I am finding this really fun tom learn about, much more than i thought. 

What are your thoughts?


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## Growdude (Dec 4, 2009)

jackson1 said:
			
		

> OK, the more i read the more i'm convinced that HID is the way to go. I am now thinking of going with a 250 watt MH and a 250 watt HPS, digital ballast's, for veg and grow. Grow books talk about this being the optimum way to grow some Kind Bud.
> 
> I was also looking at HPS lights and found that with some of the brighter bulbs at 250 watt, they are adding 25% - 30% more blue light to the spectrum. If I opt for the higher cost bulb that has this, would this be close to as good as having both HPS/MH lights going at the same time using one 400 watt HPS?
> 
> ...



My advice is to just use the cheaper bulbs ive seen no difference.
 also a HPS can be used throughout the entire grow with no compromise IMO.


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