# pot could cure the economy



## viper (May 6, 2009)

ByEDITDaniel Stein says the salvation of U.S. taxpayers could be marijuana.
As Washington breaks the bank on Wall Street bailouts, President Barack Obama's stimulus package and other spend-now, pay-later measures, most observers agree that politicians will eventually need to increase revenue or cut spending to cover the federal government's debts.
Stein believes Washington could begin to balance its books now if politicians would take a serious look at his industry. The owner of two retail outlets that he claims generate $1 million in revenue annually, Stein says he pays around $80,000 a year in sales taxes to the state of California. But the federal government, which does not acknowledge Stein's sales as legitimate commerce, gets nothing from his business.
Sound odd? Not if you know that Stein sells marijuana.EDIT
In fact, because federal authorities have spent time trying to close his and other medical-marijuana clubs, Washington is losing money on him.
Imagine how much the feds would save if they stopped cracking down on sellers, Stein says. EDIT
"Cannabis is good for the economy," he said. "It's been here the whole time, but it's had a bad rap the entire time."
As more people begin to see the merits in Stein's logic, that bad rap is changing. While legalization, decriminalization and the medical use of marijuana continue to be debated in terms of public health, lawmakers and policy analysts are increasingly touting the economic benefits of regulating and taxing weed, which theEDIT says is the most popular illegal drug in the U.S.
Critics of legalizing marijuana say the potential economic benefits of regulating and taxing the drug would obscure the less-tangible, long-term downsides of making it more prevalent in society.
"The argument wholly ignores the issue of the connection between marijuana and criminal activity and also the larger picture of substance abuse," said David Capeless, the district attorney of Berkshire County in Massachusetts and the president of the state's district attorneys association. "It simply sends a bad message to kids about substance abuse in general, which is a wrong message, that it's not a big deal."
A 2004 report by the drug policy office said drugs cost Americans more than $180 billion related to health care, lost productivity and crime in 2002. That study lumped the effects of marijuana in with more-dangerous drugs, such as cocaine and heroin. 
But marijuana advocates say history is on their side. They muster arguments similar to those that led to repealing Prohibition during the Great Depression. 
"In the early 1930s, one of the reasons that alcohol was brought back was because government revenue was plummeting," Harvard economist Jeff Miron said. "There are some parallels to that now."


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## viper (May 6, 2009)

Continued from page 1

Definitive figures on the size of the untapped marijuana market don't exist. It's a gray market, after all. But there are plenty of studies indicating we are not talking about chump change.

In a 2007 study, Jon Gettman, a senior fellow at George Mason University's School of Public Policy, valued the American marijuana trade at $113 billion annually. Between drug enforcement and potential taxes, the federal government and the states were losing almost $42 billion a year by keeping marijuana illegal, the study indicated. Gettman is a former staff member of NORML, the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws, a nonprofit that lobbies on Capitol Hill for marijuana legalization.

"It's a very large, significant economic phenomenon, and it is diverting an incredible amount of money from the taxable economy," Gettman said.

Miron says he is interested in the topic as a libertarian who believes the government shouldn't ban any drugs. He offers more-conservative numbers, estimating that federal and state treasuries would gain more than $6 billion annually if marijuana were taxed like alcohol or tobacco. At the same time, relaxing laws against use of marijuana would save nearly $8 billion in legal costs, he says.

The Obama administration seems to be inching toward a more permissive stance on marijuana. Last month, U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder announced he would end raids on clubs like Stein's, fulfilling a pledge Obama had made on the campaign trail. 

"It's a major break from the 'just say no' mentality," said Allen St. Pierre, the executive director of NORML, referring to Holder's announcement.

Stein is somewhat relieved. The raids had been wreaking havoc on California's budding marijuana industry, he says. Two years ago he was forced to move one of his clubs, The Higher Path, to a new location on Sunset Boulevard in Los Angeles, after the Drug Enforcement Administration sent his landlord a letter saying agents could seize the building.

"Medical marijuana is very, very satisfying, but it's very nerve-racking and dangerous," Stein said.

St. Pierre says 13 states have adopted laws to allow medical marijuana, while an additional handful have decriminalized possession, meaning the penalties associated with marijuana are negligible.

Of course, critics of decriminalization are also vocal. Calvina Fay, the executive director of the Drug Free America Foundation, says Gettman, Miron and others fail to account for marijuana's adverse side effects, from lethargy to impaired driving to tendencies among weed smokers to try more-serious drugs. "Those who are using drugs are less productive than those who aren't," Fay said.

A spokesman for the drug policy office declined to comment, saying the office wanted to wait until the Senate has confirmed Obama's drug czar nominee, Seattle Police Chief Gil Kerlikowske.


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## viper (May 6, 2009)

Continued from page 2

But according to the FBI's most recent data, approximately 870,000 people nationwide were arrested on marijuana violations in 2007. Nearly 15 million Americans use marijuana on a monthly basis, according to the latest National Survey on Drug Use and Health. The same study found that more than 100 million Americans had tried marijuana at least once in their lives. Advocates of decriminalization say those statistics argue against the vision of mass lassitude put forward by their opponents.
"Most people either did the drug themselves or their friends did," Miron said. "They know those extremes are not right."
California has come closest to outright legalization of the marijuana industry. Sacramento already collects around $18 million in sales taxes a year from $200 million worth of medical-marijuana purchases, according to data supplied by California's State Board of Equalization. Now Assemblyman Tom Ammiano, a San Francisco Democrat, is sponsoring new legislation that would legalize marijuana completely -- and tax it. The state estimates the proposal could generate $1.3 billion a year.
"The war on drugs has failed," Ammiano said. "It seems to me there is across both aisles that assessment, and California is in an egregious economic abyss. The economic situation makes (legalization) viable."
The pro-marijuana lobby argues that U.S. agriculture could expand significantly if farmers were allowed to openly cultivate weed. In a 2006 study, Gettman calculated that marijuana was one of the biggest cash crops in the U.S., with 56 million plants worth almost $36 million.
In the United Kingdom, where restrictions on marijuana research are less onerous than in the U.S., companies such as GW Pharmaceuticals are moving quickly to develop other drugs from the plant. In the company's 2008 annual report, GW executives said they had received approval to market Sativex, a cannabis-derived painkiller, in Canada. The report said the company is seeking approval of the drug from European regulators and is working with the U.S. Food and Drug Administration as well.
A spokesman for the company, John Dineen of the London public-relations firm Financial Dynamics, says executives would prefer not to be quoted in a story about the economic consequences of marijuana legalization.
David Goldman, a patron of the Green Cross, a medical-marijuana dispensary in San Francisco, had no such compunctions. To Goldman, medical marijuana looks like a godsend that should be studied and expanded. After groin surgery a few years ago, he found he had troubling reactions to other painkillers, and he turned to marijuana.
"The constant pain is something I need to accept and is something for which cannabis has been invaluable," he said. "Why should we cede medical cannabis research to the U.K. when some of the best minds in medicine are in this country?"


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## PencilHead (May 8, 2009)

To be the devil's advocate here, everything you said makes way too much sense to be good government.  Here's your stumbling block, the one that we probably won't be able to overcome with the current state of the ecomomy: With unemployment at an all time high, don't look for decriminalization.  Why? you may ask.  Because if we decriminalize, the lawsuits to make it retroactive begin, a few prevail and the rest are given full or partial amnesty and turned out on the streets.  Any idea how many people are in jail or prison in this country for small amounts of MJ or are in lock-up from fruits of the tree(failed piss tests when on probation for an unrelated crime, etc.)?  No, and no one else does either.  Estimates run around 60% in my state--yes, it's outrageous.  It overcrowds our prison systems so we just don't have room or resources for dealing with mother rapers, father killers and what-have-yous.  But that's not what bothers the Washington machine--it's huge unemployment numbers in this climate that are absolutely unacceptable.  Fairness and rational thinking be damned--don't have stats on fairness and rational thinking so they don't really affect approval ratings.

I've been waiting since the late 60's for this absurd prohibition to end--came close in the seventies, but failed in the end.  I want this for my country and myself so bad I can taste it, but there are just too many compicated pieces to think it's gonna come over us like a liberating wave.  But I do wish us the best of luck.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 8, 2009)

I will refer you to my responses in the Arnold thread....way too many people and companies have WAY too much interest in keeping marijuana illegal.

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=467077#post467077


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## LassChance (May 8, 2009)

NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer said:
			
		

> I will refer you to my responses in the Arnold thread....way too many people and companies have WAY too much interest in keeping marijuana illegal.
> 
> http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=467077#post467077



Hemp is the most generous plant on earth. Yes, it get's you high, but that's just the icing on the cake.
Instead of growing pine trees six years, cut them down and make newspapers that will be in the bottom of the bird cage the next day, we COULD use hemp for paper.  Hemp makes better fiber for clothing by far than cotton. Baled hemp is great for home construction--termites hate it, it is lightweight, cheap and self-insulating.  Hemp seeds contain much more oil than corn, is much easier and cheaper to grow and would make fine grade ethinol.

Best of all is that hemp grows to maturity in one season with little fertilizer and doesnt mind crappy soil, in fact thrives on it.

The resons to decriminalize hemp and marijuana are myriad and the failure to do  at a time when Green living is crucial, when sustainable resourses are paramount and the potential to our financial decline could be so easily reversed...is stupid.

But NOOOO...somebody might get high.

Lass


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## PencilHead (May 8, 2009)

LassChance said:
			
		

> Hemp is the most generous plant on earth. Yes, it get's you high, but that's just the icing on the cake.
> Instead of growing pine trees six years, cut them down and make newspapers that will be in the bottom of the bird cage the next day, we COULD use hemp for paper. Hemp makes better fiber for clothing by far than cotton. Baled hemp is great for home construction--termites hate it, it is lightweight, cheap and self-insulating. Hemp seeds contain much more oil than corn, is much easier and cheaper to grow and would make fine grade ethinol.
> 
> Best of all is that hemp grows to maturity in one season with little fertilizer and doesnt mind crappy soil, in fact thrives on it.
> ...


 
Baby, that's a great song, but you're singing to the chior.  Wish all the rational thinking made a damned bit of difference to the guys who make the rules.


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## Smokey Mcpotster (May 9, 2009)

PH your first post does make some good arguments. However as Lass pointed out the number of items now made overseas and imported here, that could be made from hemp is huge. Most of our manufacturing jobs have gone elsewhere, it could be  a big boost. I think the number of jobs created would be huge. Unless everyone is just to stoned to go to work 

PS not to hijack this but, they made a terrible decision to use corn for ethynol. But that doesnt surprise me it's just how the gov rolls. Piss poor.


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## viper (May 9, 2009)

yeah i could myself opening up a marijuanna general store right next to the walmart and starbucks with big green pot leaf neon signs it would be the best head shop in town lol id have clearance isles on sale tags and much much more it would be a thing of beauty


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## ShecallshimThor (May 9, 2009)

i saw some dude on cnn from cali talking about this
sounds like it might be considered


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 10, 2009)

LassChance said:
			
		

> Hemp is the most generous plant on earth. Yes, it get's you high, but that's just the icing on the cake.


 
Hemp does not produce THC, it will not get you high at all, you will simply get a headache if you smoke it.  Yet hemp is still illegal.  My point in the other post was that if hemp isn't even legal in this country even though it would be good for the economy and can not get you high, then what chance do we have of making marijuana legal?

  There are many many many many special interests that play in keeping MJ illegal.  There are liquor companies, tobacco companies, timber companies, etc....  Not only this, but our country has actual INFRASTRUCTURE built around the war on drugs (which is mostly on MJ) there are thousands of DEA agents, border agents, coast guard agents, various other branches of the government, programs like D.A.R.E and let's not forget that no one wants to decide what to do with the literally tens of thousands of people locked up in prison on current various MJ convictions should we all wake up one day and decide to make MJ legal.

Yes it is a hot topic in the media right now because people will consider ANYTHING to improve the economy, but national legalization seems soooooooooooo far away.  I don't want to be pessimistic, just trying to see the other side.


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## PencilHead (May 10, 2009)

NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer said:
			
		

> Hemp does not produce THC, it will not get you high at all, you will simply get a headache if you smoke it. Yet hemp is still illegal. My point in the other post was that if hemp isn't even legal in this country even though it would be good for the economy and can not get you high, then what chance do we have of making marijuana legal?
> 
> There are many many many many special interests that play in keeping MJ illegal. There are liquor companies, tobacco companies, timber companies, etc.... Not only this, but our country has actual INFRASTRUCTURE built around the war on drugs (which is mostly on MJ) there are thousands of DEA agents, border agents, coast guard agents, various other branches of the government, programs like D.A.R.E and let's not forget that no one wants to decide what to do with the literally tens of thousands of people locked up in prison on current various MJ convictions should we all wake up one day and decide to make MJ legal.
> 
> Yes it is a hot topic in the media right now because people will consider ANYTHING to improve the economy, but national legalization seems soooooooooooo far away. I don't want to be pessimistic, just trying to see the other side.


 
One fall, early 70's, two other guys and myself drove straight through to Iowa because we'd heard pot grew 10 foot up there, grew everywhere wild.  Drove 20 something hours from Atlanta, picked 600 lbs, brought it back, dried it and you clould have smoked all 600 lbs and not gotten a buzz.  Ah to be young, stupid and in possession of enough really, really bad pot to go to jail for a few years.

Had heard it was growing there because the Mexicans who built the railroad planted it--wrong.  It was planted during WWII for rope, for hemp, for fiber--no discernable THC. I threw my 200 lbs away so as not to be killed for selling bad dope.  Lesson learned--if it's too good to be true then it won't get you high.


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## Real78 (May 12, 2009)

I really don't think they will make it legal, there are to may people that need it to be illegal in order to keep their jobs. I wish they would make it legal, I mean there are many other things that are legal that do more harm then weed, but that is just IMO. I hope they make it legal I will be my ears open and see what happens.


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## SPEARCHUCKER (May 12, 2009)

More could use it legal for jobs though real78.
From making paper products, to clothing, to fuel and lubricants, to car fenders, rope, boats... You could actually build an entire house using its products, frame, insulation, drywall type material, and all. Million jobs easy.
Not to mention the help it will do farmers and the environment because 1 acre of marijuana equals something like 7 acres of trees saved and 20x the oxygen produced.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 12, 2009)

Even if they did make pot legal, I doubt it would have as much of an impact on the economy as people think.  Most grows would still stay underground.  Do you know what would happen if pot became legal and RJ Reynolds was selling packs of joints in convienience stores?  The quality of the bud, just like the quality of tobacco, goes right out the window.  Rj Reynolds would have fields of weed getting sprayed down with who knows what...I, and I think a lot of people, would still want to grow their own.


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## homegrown998 (May 12, 2009)

If we don't legalize it soon, Mexico's economy will be better than ours lol.. Its all gravy down there now.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 12, 2009)

If by "gravy" you mean "overrun with swine flu, drug cartels, and murder".


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## SPEARCHUCKER (May 12, 2009)

I dont know NYCxJH. 

"In that year (2005) there where 16,692 people murdered in the United States and it appears the murder rate is on an upswing. Between the years 2001 and 2005 (81,634) people where murdered on the streets of America"

Couldnt find more recent stats. But Mexico with 7k murders last year was their highest they had. We are flat out stomping them in the murder department.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 12, 2009)

You have to look at the murder rate as compared to the total population, not total murders.  Mexico's population is roughly 1/3 the size of the US.  So if in the US there were 16,000 people murdered in 2005, and 7,000 murdered in Mexico, that means that if you extrapolate that to a population of 3,000,000, then Mexico's murder rate would have been 21,000, much higher.  Therefore the murderrate in Mexico is actually HIGHER as a function of the population even though they have fewer total murders.

  I was refering to the recent drug cartel violence, seems like every day the chief of police of some town is murdered.


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## homegrown998 (May 12, 2009)

no, I mean that all the good things about weed here in America is true all over the world. The plant can be used by every person on earth to improve there life in one way or the other. Mexico just legalized cannabis and if they really use it to build there homes, make gas, clothes, food, medicine, cure cancer,save the rainforest, and employ people who would otherwise never be able to find a decent job. I'd say there economy could surpass ours in a few years, well that might be stretchin it alittle but atleast there country will be allot stronger while we just keep on employing police to lock ourselves up and... for what? This weed in my opinion, is the greatest resource on earth. We don't need tree's for paper no more. we don't need iran for oil no more. We don't need to waste space on corn for ethanol no more, we don't need your pills no more. And we really don't need to sleep on the floor next to the toilet in a jail cell no more.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 12, 2009)

homegrown I think you are reaching man.....cure cancer?????


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## homegrown998 (May 12, 2009)

I really don't think I am. I mean Im sure you have read about peaple who were really sick that were able to thrive on weed. and then for whatever reason they got busted or had to quit for some reason and were dead in a few weeks. This weed is amazing who really knows what else it could do for us. The only thing that is evil about this plant is the people that made it illegal, and the people that keep it that way.


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## PencilHead (May 12, 2009)

See the news yeaterday?  Barney Frank and another congressman have a hemp bill about to go to the floor--word is it has a hell of a chance of passing.  Hope this helps the cause for cousin MJ.


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## Blend No. 420 (May 12, 2009)

I think this bill will get through eventually. Of course there will be a lot of bickering and amendments. I'm sure there will even be some payoffs, but this will get through. I can see too many people who will stand to profit from this being legal. Once "hemp" is legal the chance of pushing "marijuana" reform through will be excellent.

We also need to start electing real people into politics, not politicians. That way the people making the laws have lived under them. I believe we can have real change like that, not just a catchy phrase.


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## lordhighlama (May 12, 2009)

NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer said:
			
		

> Even if they did make pot legal, I doubt it would have as much of an impact on the economy as people think. Most grows would still stay underground. Do you know what would happen if pot became legal and RJ Reynolds was selling packs of joints in convienience stores? The quality of the bud, just like the quality of tobacco, goes right out the window. Rj Reynolds would have fields of weed getting sprayed down with who knows what...I, and I think a lot of people, would still want to grow their own.


 

Not everyone has the patience, money, or skill to grow there own stash.  Anyone who is currently buying from a street dealer would be heading to the liquor store to pick up there baggy.  That is where the economy would benefit, not from the small minority of growers but the much larger group of strait smokers.


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 12, 2009)

lordhighlama said:
			
		

> Not everyone has the patience, money, or skill to grow there own stash. Anyone who is currently buying from a street dealer would be heading to the liquor store to pick up there baggy. That is where the economy would benefit, not from the small minority of growers but the much larger group of strait smokers.


 
  From my point of view, I would rather see marijuana legalized on it's own merits than as a tool for people and the government to profit.  If you do this the main motivation behind mass production goes straight to profit.  As of right now there are seed banks and companies all over the world trying to develop better and better stuff.  I want to see marijuana legalized because people realize that it is not the demon waiting in the wings that it has been made out to be.  I want to see it legalized because people realize that it has many benefits and uses in our society.  I want to see it legalized because people realize it is not a gateway drug, or something to be feared.  I DON'T want to see it legalized so greedy people can rape it for profit.  And if we legalize marijuana for the strict purpose of making money, it will be a disservice to our beloved plant.


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## lordhighlama (May 12, 2009)

I don't give a rats behind why it's legalized I just want to see it legal!


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## thedonofchronic (May 12, 2009)

for real... imagine having absolutely
no fear in the back of your head about getting
caught. I would love to be able to grow legally
so i can learn and become a great grower without
the chance of being put beind bars..


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## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (May 12, 2009)

thedonofchronic said:
			
		

> for real... imagine having absolutely
> no fear in the back of your head about getting
> caught. I would love to be able to grow legally
> so i can learn and become a great grower without
> the chance of being put beind bars..


 
  Wait a minute...even if they legalize marijuana, I GUARANTEE they still keep it illegal to grow it.  If the motivation behind legalizing it is to make money, they are not going to allow people to skirt the taxes.  I can not open a gambling parlor in my back yard, but I can buy lottery tickets.  I can not build a vodka distillery in my basement, but I can go buy vodka at the liquor store.  I bought 5 cartons of cigarettes online last year, and at the end of the year the state tracked me down and sent me a bill for the taxes.


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## lordhighlama (May 12, 2009)

still would be allot safer for us if the plant we cultivate was legal!


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## SPEARCHUCKER (May 12, 2009)

If thats the case NYCDxJH. 
Like with gambling. You and everyone here would be invited to the "1st Annual Spearchucker Pot for Abandoned Children Charity Drive." The ASPACCD  

Since pretty much everyone here lives on their own without parents. Come, enjoy, and ease that suffering you felt when your parents abandoned you by you moving out. 

If churches can have casino night. Ill take this.


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