# Sopappy's grow



## sopappy

000StankDank000 said:


> Can you post a pic of the " stuck stage" please?



Sopappy's ugly baby pictures 

I've wanted to do that but I have a pos camera. Buddy is supposed to lend me his camera but he just wants to take the pictures for me (problem . I can't focus except by moving away or closer, pretty crummy pictures.

The group shot is before the flushing. One pic is of one that seems promising and the last one is fascinating me, lower set and cotyledon look like pale leather, but above they seem to be recovering. What a mess.

Again, nice camera isn't here yet

UPDATE re the flush mid-week...  I've since lost 6 of the 25, not surprisingly, the youngest ones (4 - 6 days)
I'd like to think they are looking better but I found a dead kush this morning, but two more that  seemed to perk up.
Uncle !!! I mixed up a batch of half strength nutes and let them have it. A spoonful each, say about 4ml 
I'm going to do that morning and night now. 

View attachment saturday 008.JPG


View attachment saturday 016.JPG


View attachment saturday 017.JPG


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## Rosebud

Sopappy, what did you plant those seeds in?  Too hot..don't add food...  would you like me to move this to a grow journal for you and you can get more help?


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> Sopappy, what did you plant those seeds in?  Too hot..don't add food...  would you like me to move this to a grow journal for you and you can get more help?



Hi Rosebud,

I thought I'd try 50/50 coco/perlite so I could re-use it. I did rinse it but didn't have a metre. When metre got here, I measured 700 - 1200. I'm thinking  that's the problem so I flushed 'em and got it down to 100.
(I lost the most recent 4 and 2 bent over, but the others seem to be perking up a bit. I know I shouldn't have but I did, this morning, just before reading your post ... 1/2 strength nutes, maybe 4ml each, I'll alternate with bottled water.

The journal is a great idea. I should have started here that way but just posted some contradictions I'd hoped to solve. The fact that you just asked me what I was growing in had me re-thinking THAT dumb plan.

Yup, sure... let's dump this haphazard thread and start the journal. I could probably do that myself but if you have the time, I wouldn't mind your help getting it off to the right start. I am new to this forum stuff.

I found the JOURNALS,...   it seems I just start a thread and keep my diary there, that's easy. I'm okay Rosebud, thanks for pointing it out. I'm not sure how i missed that, I guess i just wanted to beech & moan.  I would have read a lot more before nagging you guys too, my apologies (again)

Hey thanks, Rosebud!  Had to laugh when I logged on again and saw this "Soppapy's Grow" 
I'm so embrassed, we should have called it "Sopappy, the Serial Seed Killer's Grow" or maybe
"Sopappy's Anti-Grow" or maybe
"So, Pappy, how goes the grow? or maybe
"Cuckoo for CoCo Grow by Sopappy"

Sheeesh, I'm Dexter. The only thing I didn't do was wrap my seeds in plastic.


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## The Hemp Goddess

Yes, those seedlings are fried--most likely from being fed while they were too young.  Neither Coco or perlite should be doing that.  I believe that MG sells a perlite that has nutrients in it, maybe you have that.  

Those little plants are most likely 2 weeks or so away from needing food.  And then when you feed them, it needs to be 1/8th or 1/4 strength nutes, not 1/2 strength.  Maybe you should try something like this to start plants out in [ame]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IU8K2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1[/ame]

I really though we had talked about not feeding the plants until they were 3 weeks old or so, but I guess not.  You pretty much do not need to feed until you start seeing the cotydons yellowing.  I did ask you many times what you were growing in and whether or not it had nutes in it...Part of the reason I suggested using a different medium....


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## Rosebud

Sopappy, you can't make any new mistakes, we have all made them all.. We will help you get this back on track.


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## sopappy

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Yes, those seedlings are fried--most likely from being fed while they were too young.  Neither Coco or perlite should be doing that.  I believe that MG sells a perlite that has nutrients in it, maybe you have that.
> 
> Those little plants are most likely 2 weeks or so away from needing food.  And then when you feed them, it needs to be 1/8th or 1/4 strength nutes, not 1/2 strength.  Maybe you should try something like this to start plants out in http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IU8K2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> >>> Could I just drop these in a 4" pots of 50/50 coco?
> 
> I really though we had talked about not feeding the plants until they were 3 weeks old or so, but I guess not.
> 
> >>> they are more than a month old now, THG.... I hang on to your every word, you know that.
> I hardly think I can hurt them now
> 
> You pretty much do not need to feed until you start seeing the cotydons yellowing.  I did ask you many times what you were growing in and whether or not it had nutes in it...Part of the reason I suggested using a different medium....



see >>> above

I agree. I never had trouble with potting soil, they sprouted and flourished from T5 to MH to HPS. I was just dissatisfied with the yields and worried about fire. T5 and LED now.

If I kill 'em all off with the nutes, GREAT! At least I can start over with soil.... this LIMBO stuff is killing me.
I don't give a hoot about the money anymore, I just miss the enjoyment I used to get going down there, I dread it now.

Nothing wrong with the environment, ventilation or temperatures.
I did get some bad seeds that muddied the water but I an sure that it is that damn coco.

You reminded me about the nuted perlite you mentioned in another post.... I just scooted down and ran a half litre of 100 ppm water through a quart of my perlite and ppm of runoff was the same, 100...... I'm assuming that means the perlite is NOT that nuted stuff.


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> Sopappy, you can't make any new mistakes, we have all made them all.. We will help you get this back on track.



Frankly, I regret not coming here until I had problems but frankly, I'm the paranoid type. If I finish off these ingrates with my nuting this morning, I'll just start over. Even if these girls make it, they've gotten off to a crappy start, they ain't getting any more special treatment, I'l just step on them and put them out of their misery.

I'm thinking either

1) seed in rapid rooter plugs (thanks, THG) in 1 qt pots of coco/perlite
or
2) seed in 1 qt pts of Miracle Grow potting mix. (not time release one)


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## Locked

I have been using Miracle Grow Seed Starter Mix for years now. It has no time release nutrients.  I just add extra perlite and 2 handfuls of sweet lime per 8 cubic foot bag..


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## sopappy

Hamster Lewis said:


> I have been using Miracle Grow Seed Starter Mix for years now. It has no time release nutrients.  I just add extra perlite and 2 handfuls of sweet lime per 8 cubic foot bag..



You're the only one with a coco grow journal that I could find, did you give up on coco?

Can't find their seed starter, I've used this one...
http://www.scotts.ca/smg/goprod/miracle-gro-premium-potting-soil/prod10190084


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## sopappy

sopappy said:


> Sopappy's ugly baby pictures
> 
> Here's where these spoiled brats live.
> All walls and ceiling sealed with panda paper.
> I am so proud of that pocket door, I could bust.
> Bare cement floors, plants on stands and mats.
> Both fans at MEDIUM (half cfm?)  24/7
> Never a hint of a stink in here even in last weeks of NL
> 
> I just wish I could grow something in here again hahahahahahaha
> 
> View attachment my rooms.jpg


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## Locked

I have never used Coco...just MG Seed Starter.

Just picked up 5 bags of it from Home depot. 

View attachment 20150221_143629.jpg


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## Dman1234

You have a lot of questions and thats ok, but its too bad the laws werent different!  we are both in Ontario and would just love to hop in the car and straighten a few things out for you, maybe one day.


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## sopappy

Dman, I'd pay for your gas and feed you too. But I don't think we'll ever see it legal for us, Trudeau's buddies maybe, but us small fry are just suckers and fodder for fines. I don't worry about getting busted, a home invasion is more likely. The unit sucking politicians will go for the money (fines) or they'll simply squash us with hydro rates. I'd rather not say EXACTLY where I am but if you ever head east about 4 or 5 hours, drop me a line, maybe we meet for a beer and we'll see if we can smell pig. (Sad to say that and I mean no disrespect.)


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## sopappy

Hamster Lewis said:


> I have never used Coco...just MG Seed Starter.
> 
> Just picked up 5 bags of it from Home depot.
> 
> View attachment 222767




ooops, I confused you with Hushpuppy.... puppies, hamsters, sheesh
I'm THIS close to giving up on coco

The seed starter.... do you continue with it all the way to flower?

What do you think of the .14 .14 .14?

Home Depot make me nervous, i don't buy there.


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## Rosebud

sopappy, seed starter is just that. Does Amazon deliver to canada?  Seed starter has no nutrients in it and that is because nutrients burn babies. I keep mine in ss until they are root bound, not telling you to do that, but mine almost always end up that way. You can feed w/1/4 strength nutrients  till you put them in some good soil like Fox Farm Ocean Forest. None of thos 14-14-14 will work. Pot has very distinctive needs at appropriate times.  They need more N during veg... etc.


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> Sopappy, you can't make any new mistakes, we have all made them all.. We will help you get this back on track.



Take another look at that picture up there with the leather like paper thin cotyledons and first set and then the sudden switch to green sets right above them. That's a new mistake for me, I've NEVER even seen that before. I find it absolutely fascinating. What an amazing plant... that beech is more than a month old and even I can't knock her down.

If she recovers with the nutes I started this morning, I'm converting to Islam.
If she doesn't, I'll still stick my bum up in the air so y'all can smack it.


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> sopappy, seed starter is just that. Does Amazon deliver to canada?
> 
> >>> yep, but it's like Netflix, we don't get all that you Amuricans get.
> 
> Seed starter has no nutrients in it and that is because nutrients burn babies. I keep mine in ss until they are root bound, not telling you to do that, but mine almost always end up that way. You can feed w/1/4 strength nutrients  till you put them in some good soil like Fox Farm Ocean Forest.
> None of thos 14-14-14 will work.
> 
> >>> That's all I've used for last 3 years (with tomato nutes believe it or not) and I produced some really, really good product.
> Seed into 1qt under T5s until about a foot, transplant 2qt to MH to about 3 ft, then to 3qt to HPS
> 
> Pot has very distinctive needs at appropriate times.  They need more N during veg... etc.



see >>> above 

Nah, it's a weed, and a darn smart one to cosy up to us like they did... just look how we knock ourselves out trying to perpetuate it. My guess is one of those MARS volunteers smuggles it on board.

Keep it simple, stupid. I tried to improve on a good thing and I blew it.
It really is not that hard to grow. I just got greedy.

Seriously... my NL 2 years ago was a cup contender I tells ya.


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## sopappy

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Yes, those seedlings are fried--most likely from being fed while they were too young.  Neither Coco or perlite should be doing that.  I believe that MG sells a perlite that has nutrients in it, maybe you have that.
> 
> >>> nope, Perlite was 0 ppm, coco was filthy 1400, 700ppm, who knows but down to 100 now
> 
> Those little plants are most likely 2 weeks or so away from needing food.  And then when you feed them, it needs to be 1/8th or 1/4 strength nutes, not 1/2 strength.
> 
> >>> jeeeeeeze, I thought half was reasonable, I'll agonize over this but still think I'm okay with half Thrive
> 
> Maybe you should try something like this to start plants out in http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002IU8K2/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
> 
> >>> why didn't I think of this, yes, they are on the way
> 
> I really though we had talked about not feeding the plants until they were 3 weeks old or so, but I guess not.  You pretty much do not need to feed until you start seeing the cotydons yellowing.
> 
> >>> I finally cracked at day 32 and fed them in desperation but it was only the Thrive, not nutes ???
> 
> I did ask you many times what you were growing in and whether or not it had nutes in it...
> 
> >>>not sure where I went wrong there. I should not have started the stupid Mythbusters thread but was pretty frustrated and didn't know how to ask for help, sorry about that. Turns out, I'm almost positive it's the coco not rinsed enough and under watering.
> 
> Part of the reason I suggested using a different medium....




Hello THG,

My rapid rooter plugs are here and I'm going to start another 5 tomorrow.

UPDATE: I am now comfortable with the T5 and have it a couple inches above the plants and a comfy 21 - 24 degrees day & night. I swear these girls might recover and it's practice with the coco the way I see it so I'm not as emotional these days. I know you want soil but I'm going to try one more time with the coco.

I have it rinsed down to 100ppm but can't get it lower, it'll have to do.
It's 50/50 with perlite and I think you are quite right about the watering. I find it devious stuff, not like soil at all. It drains fast and I think I've been under watering so I thought I'd try this:

I'll sit 5 x 4" pots in a tray of ph'd 100pm water w/half Thrive. Full, they weigh 600-700 grams each and I'll drain the tray.
A seed in each DRY plug is them put into each pot. 
I think it will be easier to tell that the plug is moist and I will mist to keep it moist with distilled water (0 ppm) and half thrive mixture.
When they poke through, I'll switch to spoon feed with bottled water (700 ppm) and half Thrive until I see the cotyledons yellow or 3rd set, whichever comes first.
All the while, I'll weigh a pot or two and when I see 300 - 400 grams, I'll flood again, hopefully yellow cotyledons by then and I can nute, half strength, fill and drain.


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## Kraven

Sopappy, read the whole thread...mourned the lost. Guess what, I am sure everyone here has killed their share of plants. Your in great hands here and I see no need to add advice as mine has already been given. Good luck, I'm subb'ed. I looking forward to seeing happy results


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Sopappy, read the whole thread...mourned the lost. Guess what, I am sure everyone here has killed their share of plants. Your in great hands here and I see no need to add advice as mine has already been given. Good luck, I'm subb'ed. I looking forward to seeing happy results



Hello Kraven. I'm sure that's probably true but I'm a serial killer and must be stopped. I'm going for the record here, at least TWO DOZEN so far.

These are the survivors (so far). They range from 2 -3 weeks old and are off to a horrible start. I knew there were at least 6 that wouldn't survive the flush and the last one (hopefully) was plucked this morning. I'm hoping these will recover but the place still reeks of suffering and death. I'm sure I hear them scream now when I walk in to the room.

Yup, a good bunch here. I was operating in a vacuum for years but this coco effort really threw me a curve. I'm getting straightened out here...
Wait until you see the next 5 ! 

View attachment 25022015 007.jpg


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## Kraven

We all went through the same learning process, so your gonna be one smart cookie when you get dialed in. Our role here for you is to try and help you minimize errors since we have already proven them ineffective, therefore no need for you to try this as it has been proven to not work( ect)......hopefully whenever you have a question please pipe up and ask, it might save you time, bud money...ect.


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## sopappy

Minimize errors... well put, thank you!
I'm not sowing another seed until I've planned this thing out. I'm switching mid-stream AGAIN! and it's going to get messy (uh, messier) 
It looks like I've got maybe 6 seedlings that look pretty much unscathed and starting to recover. I'll likely finish them off trying to plant them in the hydroton but I'm trying to be optimistic.
I only have two LEDS, one 200W (picture) and the other 350W.... that's one plant each I'd guess. But I have room. I'm thinking this might be a more forgiving setup for me.
http://www.hightimes.com/read/how-build-two-bucket-dwc-system
2 totes, 1 plant under each light, hopefully get a rotation going (as i have 2 rooms)
It strikes me as a good way to get my feet wet and I'll worry about recirculating and a chiller later (if it's even necessary).

I bought these LEDS 2 years ago from a province far away but was very disappointed that they're made in China. I wish i could see whether they put the muck on the heat sinks the bastids but I ain't about to take it apart.
I did use them in my last grows and noticed much closer nodes and deeper penetration but I think my lamps were about 3 years old when i gave them away.

blah, blah, blah... hahaha, better go now 

View attachment small led.jpg


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## Kraven

Babies are looking good :icon_smile:


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Babies are looking good :icon_smile:



If they were babies, I'd agree but most of these tortured gals are a month old, about a half dozen are 6 weeks! and the youngest is a tad over 2 weeks.
It truly is an amazing plant though. I am actually seeing brown, thin leather like leaves slowly turning green again. And they all seem to be greening up and getting bigger now that I don't give a **** whether they live or die. I am just itching to try your DWC method.


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## Rosebud

Nice lights, green mojo for your grow.


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## The Hemp Goddess

I am still really confused by your ventilation.  I would have the 400 cfm vortex up top pulling hot air out.  I would not use the 200 cfm.  A passive inlet is fine.

I hate to tell you this, but you may want to just start over.  Those plants are smaller than most week old seedlings.  And unfortunately, plants that have such a hard start in life often never every catch up.  

I do not use coco because I simply have never had much luck with it.  I also never use Miracle Grow products on principal--Monsanto is raping the earth and they do not care as long as they can make a buck.  

There are several reasons that I prefer single DWC buckets and totes rather than RDWC.  
But I am late for an appointment.  More on why later....


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## Kraven

I kinda agree with THG at this point. Your plants are really behind, and they don't have the foundation built to produce well or with any potency. Your learning sopappy, we all did so don't let this be negative, think of all you have learned so far, it is not a defeat to rinse and repeat....sometimes it's just the best thing to do. Also I'll make one more suggestion. Drop one bean and learn how to generally take care of one plant. See the genetics I grow have 4 differing pheo's and each have a little different needs. I grow two different strains (the other has three as far as I can tell, I have only been growing it for about 4 grows now) so my point is this, if I drop two beans, one from each strain I have a random set of 2 out of 7 plants. So get one strain down, and all it's pheno's before planting many different strains without having a good foundation and several successful grows. Thats just my advice.....other may have a different opinion


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> Nice lights, green mojo for your grow.



Hi Rosebud,  Happy Birthday!
I was excited about them until I saw Made In China on the box but I'm hopeful. Yields were nothing special but I can't be sure that was the light . Two things I did notice though were better penetration and shorter distance between nodes.


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## sopappy

The Hemp Goddess said:


> I am still really confused by your ventilation.  I would have the 400 cfm vortex up top pulling hot air out.  I would not use the 200 cfm.  A passive inlet is fine.
> 
> ====> The 400 is up there. You can see it behind the picture of the LED up there. It sucks from the filtre can and then out to the basement (or the sewer drain when things get stinky)
> There are two rooms, the 200 cfm just pulls air from one room to the other when the door's closed as the passive inputs (furnace or outside)
> are in the veg room.
> 
> I hate to tell you this, but you may want to just start over.  Those plants are smaller than most week old seedlings.  And unfortunately, plants that have such a hard start in life often never every catch up.
> 
> ====> indeed, a waste of electricity. My coco trial was a complete disaster. I didn't have a metre and it was filthy. Flushing just finished them off. But it's still practice with the metre and the nutes and the temperatures so I console myself with that. Next is DWC, I don't want to give up and go back to soil.
> 
> I do not use coco because I simply have never had much luck with it.  I also never use Miracle Grow products on principal--Monsanto is raping the earth and they do not care as long as they can make a buck.
> 
> ====> Coco was a big mistake for me. Maybe if I'd rinsed it better but I'm not playing with it anymore.
> 
> There are several reasons that I prefer single DWC buckets and totes rather than RDWC.
> But I am late for an appointment.  More on why later....



====> more up there
Thanks for stopping by. I don't think I have enough light for RDWC but I'm thinking of this two bucket thing though, one setup under each LED
and maybe using 10 gal totes instead of 5 gal buckets.

http://www.hightimes.com/read/how-build-two-bucket-dwc-system


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> I kinda agree with THG at this point. Your plants are really behind, and they don't have the foundation built to produce well or with any potency. Your learning sopappy, we all did so don't let this be negative, think of all you have learned so far, it is not a defeat to rinse and repeat....sometimes it's just the best thing to do. Also I'll make one more suggestion. Drop one bean and learn how to generally take care of one plant. See the genetics I grow have 4 differing pheo's and each have a little different needs. I grow two different strains (the other has three as far as I can tell, I have only been growing it for about 4 grows now) so my point is this, if I drop two beans, one from each strain I have a random set of 2 out of 7 plants. So get one strain down, and all it's pheno's before planting many different strains without having a good foundation and several successful grows. Thats just my advice.....other may have a different opinion



Waaaaay over my head, Kraven, but decent of you to try 
I'm trying DWC perhaps as early as this week and I'm dragging you all along with me. You saw those Barney's Farm blister packs I still have... I won't even open one until y'all see pictures of what I plan to try.
See that LED up there? 210W, I have one more bigger at 350W
One seedling under each after the dixie cup thing?
I might go 10 gal totes though and maybe try that two bucket version.


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## Rosebud

Thanks for the b'day wishes.  How many plants are you going to flower under LED? Do you LED's veg too?


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> Thanks for the b'day wishes.  How many plants are you going to flower under LED? Do you LED's veg too?



Right now, I've had the walking dead about a foot below that smaller LED and they did green up a bit but frankly, I think I could turn it off and they wouldn't know the difference.  

I used the LEDs last year in veg and flower. I noticed better penetration than the bulbs and shorter distances between nodes but nothing special in the yield department (may or may not have been the LEDs)

I might leave the walking dead under the T5s for awhile, hard to let them go; but I'm now thinking a two bucket (ONE plant) DWC under each LED
http://www.hightimes.com/read/how-build-two-bucket-dwc-system
Everything under the LEDs, start to finish.

I'm posting every step here... jump in to try to save them anytime


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## Kraven

:ccc: Still watching.


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## Rosebud

That sounds amazing one plant per light.  That should rock this grow. Greenest of mojo to you.


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> That sounds amazing one plant per light.  That should rock this grow. Greenest of mojo to you.



If I can do 1/4 as well as Kraven does in that tent, I will be ecstatic.


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> I kinda agree with THG at this point. Your plants are really behind, and they don't have the foundation built to produce well or with any potency. .... some good stuff snipped...



Potency eh?  Never thought about that. I'm afraid that is going t be the final nail in the coffin. I wish I had a decent camera but here is a picture of the biggest of the purple orange kush (almost 3 weeks old) I started nutes and the LED last week and measured her wingspan 2 days ago. She has not budged.
Funny thing is the exhaust had a funky smell this morning. I put the vent back down in to the drain and it's gone, so, yup, it was from these plants.
It makes me hesitate to put them out of their misery. I have the room to stick them in the flower under the T5 while I start the DWC setup in veg.
What to do, what to do....
anybody got any experiments they'd like to try on them before I give up or is that just sick and messing with Karma? 

View attachment rip.jpg


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## Kraven

sopappy said:


> If I can do 1/4 as well as Kraven does in that tent, I will be ecstatic.



You will get there quicker than I did, think of all the sad mistakes I made along the way, plus I'm pretty sure I have at least three decades more experience than you sopappy. Your gonna get there fast I can tell. Greenest of mojo to you and your grow man.


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## Kraven

Sopappy, after this DWC I'm going to go back to soil. When I get ready I would like for you to grow with me, it's about two months away. We will go through all the steps together, use the same dirt and the same methods. That way I can teach you what I know, and maybe learn something from you. Thats only if you want to, we will make it a journal so we can constantly swap pictures and ask questions and we can post everything that we are doing and whats happening with the plant. BUT LIKE I SAID.....only if your interested, no need to feel pressured, if your not interested it will not offend me nor hurt my feelings


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## sopappy

Ya, yer old... the Hollies? Really?
(great tune, that guitar intro and that base riff in 'Hungry'. A couple of 45s that got lots of time on my Coronet record player)


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## Kraven

sopappy said:


> Ya, yer old... the Hollies? Really?
> (great tune, that guitar intro and that base riff in 'Hungry'. A couple of 45s that got lots of time on my Coronet record player)



Lol, I may just be the kid here


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Sopappy, after this DWC I'm going to go back to soil. When I get ready I would like for you to grow with me, it's about two months away. We will go through all the steps together, use the same dirt and the same methods. That way I can teach you what I know, and maybe learn something from you. Thats only if you want to, we will make it a journal so we can constantly swap pictures and ask questions and we can post everything that we are doing and whats happening with the plant. BUT LIKE I SAID.....only if your interested, no need to feel pressured, if your not interested it will not offend me nor hurt my feelings



Of course I'm in. (I almost said "far out")
And I think I still have my Great Escape soil discard pants too. 
But why? I mean I did see your bud porn from those soil grows but I thought your DWC went smooth and with superb results.
Is it the taste? aroma? burn? 

My first grow was Northern Lights 4 years ago but boy, did I luck out. It was incredible, had it all, taste, aroma, buzz, even appearance was stunning. But it's been slowly downhill ever since. You're point on this, I'll follow your lead.

two months... I still want to try the DWC but I'll scale back and use bag seed instead just to get something going in there again. If I flower in 2 months, me and the veg room would be ready. It would also be a great LED vs HPS/MH comparison too. Yup, I'm liking this. I have those barney blister packs you saw and 10 pk ultra (whatever that is) I'd even like to use the same seed but that's too much information, how the hell would I get them to you?


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## Rosebud

far out is correct, awesomeness abounds.. Kraven that is so cool of you to do. Sopappy you are in good hands.
I just want to say I am glad both of you found MP.... FAR OUT!!!


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> far out is correct, awesomeness abounds.. Kraven that is so cool of you to do. Sopappy you are in good hands.
> I just want to say I am glad both of you found MP.... FAR OUT!!!



I'm thinking he may have just finished a bowl when he wrote that so I won't hold him to it  but it would be pretty cool alright.

They heard me down there. At least 3 are looking much more vibrant but too little, too late..., why oh why didn't I experiment with these instead of those femmed blisterpacks ???? duuuuuuuumb 

View attachment seeds 001.jpg


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## sopappy

I bit the bullet, put on 'take me to the river' and set about giving last rites to the poorest of the lot. I tugged and it was a struggle. 

View attachment roots 001.jpg


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## sopappy

I'm going to start a couple of buckets, just a simple drip system, something like this. 
(Kraven, I'm still up for the soil in couple o' months, I'll have room) 

View attachment drip.jpg


View attachment control.jpg


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> I'm thinking he may have just finished a bowl when he wrote that so I won't hold him to it  but it would be pretty cool alright.
> 
> They heard me down there. At least 3 are looking much more vibrant but too little, too late..., why oh why didn't I experiment with these instead of those femmed blisterpacks ???? duuuuuuuumb



Naa I'm for real, I'm thinking of growing BF night shade, we will just grow together, would not want to take any of your beans. It will be like a "Bro Grow"...whew I'm stoned and that's what I just decided we should name the thread


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Naa I'm for real, I'm thinking of growing BF night shade, we will just grow together, would not want to take any of your beans. It will be like a "Bro Grow"...whew I'm stoned and that's what I just decided we should name the thread



Bro Grow? hahaha, yup, your plants are pretty good to you alright. Personally, I'm doing a flush, cold turkey, from more than a gm/day to zip, almost 4 weeks now but enough is ENOUGH... I am REALLY looking forward to this weekend. :yay:
Oh, that reminds me, I don't think I saw any Humble Pie on that Hamster Lewis thread. I gotta put "30 days is the hole" up there, check it out (after a wake & bake).... alright Ted


----------



## Rosebud

Love the bro grow!!!!


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Naa I'm for real, I'm thinking of growing BF night shade, we will just grow together, would not want to take any of your beans. It will be like a "Bro Grow"...whew I'm stoned and that's what I just decided we should name the thread



Kraven, drag that Dr Green fellow over here to look at these buckets with the control bucket and re-circulating pump. It seems to me it would solve some problems but it uses a drip to feed the buckets which apparently means you don't need air stones. I'm trying two buckets with a control bucket (but I'm not using a submersible pump like you see in the picture) under one of my LEDs.
BUT I was following your discussion re using 18 gal totes so I don't want to drill my buckets until y'all comment. No pressure though, I can wait.

Speaking of pressure, buddy dropped by with my score for this weekend, I only wanted 7g because I'm broke with money wasted on seeds and coco disaster. He gave me 4 different strains of (get this) 1.75g each, a buffet for pete's sake and I'm trying to wait until Saturday morning.... aaaaarrrrggggghhhhh, it's been THIRTY DAYS.... it's 6pm Thursday....

tick tock tick tock
:bolt:


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Yeah... first of all, don't wait. Go grab a smoking device and get the edge off. We'll all call it 30 days and be good.  

Second, hello. I'm here! Ok, drip system eh? I do not like drips anymore. They clog, sometimes dislodge and spray in the wrong directions (yikes!), they have a tendency to promote bugs by keeping your top layer wet. There's more reasons, but I generally stay away from it now. 

My "dream hydro" setup, is one I was already running, just a bit redesigned. It only works if you have room for your control res, but basically you use a control reservoir outside of the containers, and have it all interconnected with 1" or larger pipe. 2" is preferable, as seen in your first picture. But, this has to be done properly, and there's loads of videos out there describing this system. It's called Under Current and also known as RDWC. I prefer DWC in large containers with access ports now! Less places for algae to build up. Less chance of a "miss flow" with pumps from Under Current (control res overflow or something of the sort). With loads of air, and lots of room for the root mass to grow, you promote a large / healthy canopy. 

I do not like 5 gal buckets, as I believe there needs to be way more room for roots, and the solution they should be held in. 5 gal DWC will drink a LOT and very fast from mid flowering on, and it's rather annoying to add back every day. 5 gals will work for RDWC though, like you have shown, but again.. there's many factors that work against RDWC in my opinion. Straight DWC is wonderful. Another thing that's rather nifty is Flood and Drain table, but that's a bit of a pain in the butt as well. I use Flood n Drain for my veg setup, and it's seeming to work pretty nice. Feeds from the bottom, and the 15 gal control res under the table has 4 air stones in it. 

The problem I have with control res's under plants during flowering is... you're exceedingly limiting your vertical height. Unless you're in a warehouse or place with raised ceilings, but if you're in a tent, forget it! The 18 gal totes only allow for so much vertical growth as it is. But, with those, I've managed a few runs with 7 - 10 oz's per single plant. I can not wait to get back to that... I went soilless (again.. was that at first) over the last half a year, and it's been just horrible the entire time. Piss poor yields and fighting issues left and right. You find an issue, it takes longer to correct in things other than Hydro. Hydro is so much more invigorating and "precise" to me. But, honestly, to each their own you know? Many members on here have run some stuff that will blow you away when you look at how healthy and big / frosty it is.. and they are organic! 

Any questions about water, I'm always around! Also, please check my grow journals from the past. I've done a lot of in detail journals. 

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/search.php?searchid=1593399

That link should show you all threads started by me. 

This one specifically may interest you: 
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66411

Will check your thread more and see if I can add anything else. :aok:


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## sopappy

I'm hanging on by my fingernails... the monkey is making some pretty persuasive arguments.... but this caught my eye and I must ask:

"The 18 gal totes only allow for so much vertical growth as it is"

Does this mean the 5 gal would allow for even less vertical growth? I only have a 7 foot ceiling, the LED hang about a foot below that and the bucket is a foot tall...
I'd be happy with 3 or 4 foot plant.... would it be shorter than that in 5 gal?

I'll have more questions likely but I'm going to try listening to Laquerhead... if that doesn't quiet that yammering monkey, I likely won't be back tonight 

This is MUCH appreciated. I'm most impressed with what you and Kraven are doing so I want to digest all this and walk through those threads. I should post a picture of my rooms as well. I can't afford another false start.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Honestly, if you listen to my (or others whom are knowledgeable) advice, it's really going to help you in the long run. 

5gal bucket and 18 gal tote are almost the exact same height. You have the same ceiling as me, so you'll be getting 3 1/2 - 4 foot plants, just maximize your horizontal growth. I don't do scrog with DWC, though now I could because of my 4" access ports. I do major LST and super cropping, along with round(s) of FIM / topping in veg. 

What I ment by "only allow so much growth" is that, the larger container you use, the more vertical height you have to sacrifice. It's only inches, but inches count when we have a 7' ceiling right? hah. It's nothing much to worry about. I've hit 10.2 oz's on a single plant (1 out of 4 in the tent) doing the 18 gal totes. others have hit 7.1 and in that range. Highest yield with hydro in my 4x4 has been 27oz, and I hope to crush that this year.


----------



## Kraven

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Honestly, if you listen to my (or others whom are knowledgeable) advice, it's really going to help you in the long run.
> 
> 5gal bucket and 18 gal tote are almost the exact same height. You have the same ceiling as me, so you'll be getting 3 1/2 - 4 foot plants, just maximize your horizontal growth. I don't do scrog with DWC, though now I could because of my 4" access ports. I do major LST and super cropping, along with round(s) of FIM / topping in veg.
> 
> What I ment by "only allow so much growth" is that, the larger container you use, the more vertical height you have to sacrifice. It's only inches, but inches count when we have a 7' ceiling right? hah. It's nothing much to worry about. I've hit 10.2 oz's on a single plant (1 out of 4 in the tent) doing the 18 gal totes. others have hit 7.1 and in that range. Highest yield with hydro in my 4x4 has been 27oz, and I hope to crush that this year.



:yeahthat:

http://www.marijuanapassion.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## sopappy

Cheese :vap-red vapor: 

:holysheep:

I have a shitload of reading to do, in the meantime, I'll post before I do anything. 
I still have those coco plants, I can't bring myself to kill something that's growing. I should post another picture and take poll.


----------



## Kraven

:48:

I'm sooooo stoned.


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## Dr. Green Fang

Me too Kraven! Cindy 99 rippin' me up right now!


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## sopappy

Shortest acid trip I ever had


----------



## sopappy

If anybody wants to play, I am posting two pictures of my coco disaster. Some of the plants in the picture taken about 2 weeks ago were 2 - 4 weeks old and suffered through at least 3 flushes to clean up the coco. (got it down to 100 ppm)
This latest picture is 2 weeks later and the most growth was in the last 3 days, their color is not so great but some seem lively enough. Any hope at all?
Or is the end product pretty much going to suck no matter what I do now? 

View attachment before.jpg


View attachment poll 003.jpg


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## Kraven

:farm::cool2:


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## sopappy

one thumbs up... I think I lost my audience hahaha
but good enough for me. They look pretty darn good and I'm going to press on with.... wait for it.... hempy buckets.... I've sealed a dozen of my old 3 qt pots and I'm going use up my coco and perlite and just see what happens. I'm not looking forward to the transplant though, I'm afraid the medium will just fall through my hands!


----------



## sopappy

I forgot the picture of my hempy buckets. I'm too lazy to gather all those items for the layers (massproducer) and I have a lot of coco and perlite to get rid off. I'm just going to use the same nutes I plan on using for the RDWC.

On the hempy buckets...
That lowest part of the pocket below the drilled hole gets flushed out every time you water. I don't follow that. Why doesn't the descending water just go out the hole instead of down to the bottom of the bucket and push all the old stuff out?
I have the perlite layer in plain water right now at the bottom of a bucket. I'll add the 50/50 and the plant (well, maybe not the plant just yet) and prepare a batch of nutes. 2 litres should displace the existing water. I forgot to ph the water with the perlite, it's about 8.6 so when I add the initial 2l, I'll catch the water coming out of the hole. It should be about 8.6 but I think it's going to be about 6 

View attachment gang.jpg


View attachment monday.jpg


----------



## sopappy

Scratch the Hempy pots. I don't think the water below that drain hole ever changes. I prepared a bucket with perlite below the drain hole and filled up to the hole with city water, 8.7 pH. I filled the pot with coco/perlite 50/50 and put 2 qts of nuted water in to the pot 6.1 pH. I caught the water coming out of the drain hole. 6.2 pH
Then I just kept filling it up again and again with cold tap water, 8 - 10 quarts and slowly the pH starts to rise but I gave up after 6.7
So now the pot is cold, condensation on the outside even. So when the draining stops, I add 2 litres of hot (very) water. I can almost see the line around the level of the drain hole where the condensation stops and the first water out is warm. Below the hole, pot is cool, above the hole pot is warm.


----------



## sopappy

This is the two bucket set-up for my smaller LED. The drip loops will have 3 spouts when finished but no air stones. I'll have a lid for the reservoir but that's a submersible pump. I'm running it ;looking for leaks, it didn't take long. I'm afraid to put any more torqure on those plastic threads. I'd think I'd be okay with Aquarium silicone... is ordinary silicone just on the outside okay? I didn't want to put that gasket on the inside either.
I'm going to try moving a couple of the plants in to the clay pellets. I'm supposed to wash all the roots off with a spray bottle. 

View attachment small Led.jpg


View attachment leak.jpg


----------



## Kraven

Hiya's pappy, was just checking in. It looks like your still deciding on what type of set-up you want to run. Your way past my knowledge now...it took me six months to research and see what a 5gal dwc is and how to make it work. I just want you to have a massive grow with a bunch of weight.


----------



## sopappy

I'm not touching my seeds. I'll practice with these instead. 
I actually held one of those plants under running water to clean the perlite and coco off the roots. It was awful, I felt like I was water boarding a plant.
If she survives the night, I'll try another one tomorrow. 
Ph is 6.1 and ppm is 1500, full strength nutes and H2O2 (1.2ml/L)


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

I'd say waterboarding would be stuffing the green part of the plant under water and leaving it there. If you consider Hydro, I mean... roots sit in bubbling water. hah  

Just be very gentle and try to break as little amount as you can. Some people cut root balls in half to "spare time" or even make sure something doesn't get too big. Crazy huh?  I've seen it done in my researchings, but dang!!


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> I'd say waterboarding would be stuffing the green part of the plant under water and leaving it there. If you consider Hydro, I mean... roots sit in bubbling water. hah
> 
> Just be very gentle and try to break as little amount as you can. Some people cut root balls in half to "spare time" or even make sure something doesn't get too big. Crazy huh?  I've seen it done in my researchings, but dang!!



Roots in water indeed hahaha, there was just something about it that seemed soooo wrong 
The one survived overnight so I tackled another one this morning.
I have one very sick looking plant I didn't notice under the LED but jumped out at me under the T5
Got a get me a pair of them shades 

Last picture is what's left of the coco run, 3 more go under LEDS Tuesday or so and the rest will have to languish under the T5

SO NICE to finally have something growing in here again. 

View attachment 2totango.jpg


View attachment uh oh.jpg


View attachment 3moretogo.jpg


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## sopappy

Just in case P Jammers shows up... here's the two I hope go mental under that 210W LED
The other LED is 4 modules bigger 360W and I'll add a plant. 

View attachment smaller LED.jpg


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> That sounds amazing one plant per light.  That should rock this grow. Greenest of mojo to you.



Well, I have to THANK YOU VERY MUCH for that green mojo stuff because it sure seemed to have helped. I am taking 5 of these tortured girls and putting them under the LEDS, 2 under 1 (done) and 3 under the other (Tuesday) .... so not quite one per light (only Kravenhead can pull that off  but I'm thinking I'm just about right here with almost 60W per plant, should be PLENTY.

If I can just get P Jammers to drop by and bless this, I'll be good to go.


----------



## P Jammers

Well you certainly didn't need to come off as a jerk in the other thread to get my attention, a simply, can you please come check me out with a link would have worked.

If that light is putting out 210 then it should be good to go provided you can train the plants to sit under it. 

What is the footprint of this light coverage wise advertised? My guess is 2x3 maybe? A good plan may be to build yourself a home made scrog setup out of PVC or the like and train these to sit under the footprint of the light.

Sort of like this
View attachment example.gif


I think running straight up you'll struggle so you want as many tops as you can get at the top of the canopy.

Happy growing


----------



## sopappy

P Jammers said:


> Well you certainly didn't need to come off as a jerk in the other thread to get my attention, a simply, can you please come check me out with a link would have worked.
> 
> If that light is putting out 210 then it should be good to go provided you can train the plants to sit under it.
> 
> What is the footprint of this light coverage wise advertised? My guess is 2x3 maybe? A good plan may be to build yourself a home made scrog setup out of PVC or the like and train these to sit under the footprint of the light.
> 
> Sort of like this
> View attachment 223511
> 
> 
> I think running straight up you'll struggle so you want as many tops as you can get at the top of the canopy.
> 
> Happy growing



Ya, I know, I know. I ran out of pot and bought a case of beer. I should know better than to email or post anything but it's not the first time. I hate waking up to count beer bottles. I do apologize for that cheap shot. Good of you not to stoop to my level.

I don't think it's putting out 210, my watt meter thingie says 175W
The smaller LED has 6 modules and the bigger one has 10
The pattern at 2 feet matches the modules, a sq ft per module, 30 watts ea
so, yup, you nailed it, 2 x 3 and 2 x 5
http://opticgrowlights.com/360-watt-force-led-grow-light.html

Yup, I'd like to try that scrog thing, that looks like chicken wire, 2 inch squares, I could try that but do I want that stadium seating using an LED? 
I'm thinking flat from one end to the other.

I had the small LED 1 foot above the 14 dirty coco survivors and thought all okay as 11 look not bad but 3 of them are hurting... 
You say 3 feet in veg... which is where they are now but the 3 sick ones... is that burn from the LED?


----------



## sopappy

I tried the SEARCH but didn't get very far: I want to adjust the PH in my buckets. 
I have 32 Litres required (3 buckets and control, 8 L each) I've never adjusted this large a quantity before but with smaller amounts , I found it real EASY to overshoot the mark and even hit 4.2 once. Not such a big deal, I'd just add more water.
But in a bucket system, that's going to be a pain so I've got 32L running with nutes and temps purdy good but PH is 6.2
I figure I want 5.5 - 5.8 so I've been adding 10 drops, waiting an hour, adding 10 drops, waiting an hour, I'm up to 40 drops and it's not really moving... is there some trick to this? Should I be adding a ml at a time, 5 ml at time, a cup?
:hairpull:


----------



## MR1

It takes me about 2 mils, to get 3 litres down to 6.5 from 8.5. Maybe try 5 ml at a time but use less when you get close to your target number, you should not have to wait that long to adjust, when your ph meter reading stops moving, adjust some more. I grow in dirt so that is how I do it.


----------



## sopappy

I'm looking to drop 3 points... 8.7 to 5.7 with 10x the volume, I'm guessing 20 - 30 ml. There are about 25 drops in a ml, I'd have been up all night hahaha...  and no waiting? I think I complicate this stuff. And 5ml increment steps sounds just about right too. Thanks for that, MR1


----------



## sopappy

I really thought all those plants would die but they didn't. I forgot basics and allowed them to become root bound in those small pots (Thank you for your reply MR1 !!) so now I have a dozen plants that will not FIT under my lighting. 

I stumbled across this by Stoney Bud and it seems the answer to my dilemma:
"As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola"

By the centre branch, does he mean the stem?
I'm also assuming I leave the fan leaves and just trim the branches. 

View attachment one of too many.JPG


View attachment two of too many.JPG


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Hiya's pappy, was just checking in. It looks like your still deciding on what type of set-up you want to run. Your way past my knowledge now...it took me six months to research and see what a 5gal dwc is and how to make it work. I just want you to have a massive grow with a bunch of weight.



Holy crap that TOR is tedious to use here,.... third try...

Hey Kraven!   I keep wanting to call you Cliff
You must be getting out the scissoirs. What's next for you?
I have 10 of those survivors in dirt now in 2qt pots and will trim for one cola each figuring they've been through so much, I'll be lucky to get that hahaha
BUT
Meanwhile, I have the two buckets ready for another try from seed. I have notes from you re germinating in a solo cup and moving in to the clay pots when roots show.
I'm reviewing your grow of course but will still have questions.
Are you doing another one in your bucket?
How do you clean your bucket after harvest?
(after nutes running in my test rig, it's slimey, yuck)

Pictures:
I'm still picking perlite out of the clay pellets, afraid it'll clog the pump.
I trimmed all branches on a plant for practice
10 in soil hope to fit under that LED, one cola each 

View attachment perlite.JPG


View attachment 10 in dirt.JPG


View attachment trimmed for basebal bat.JPG


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> Holy crap that TOR is tedious to use here,.... third try...
> 
> Hey Kraven!   I keep wanting to call you Cliff
> You must be getting out the scissoirs. What's next for you?
> I have 10 of those survivors in dirt now in 2qt pots and will trim for one cola each figuring they've been through so much, I'll be lucky to get that hahaha
> BUT
> Meanwhile, I have the two buckets ready for another try from seed. I have notes from you re germinating in a solo cup and moving in to the clay pots when roots show.
> I'm reviewing your grow of course but will still have questions.
> Are you doing another one in your bucket?
> How do you clean your bucket after harvest?
> (after nutes running in my test rig, it's slimey, yuck)
> 
> Pictures:
> I'm still picking perlite out of the clay pellets, afraid it'll clog the pump.
> I trimmed all branches on a plant for practice
> 10 in soil hope to fit under that LED, one cola each




Yea check ma thread I did a bunch of pic's of the take down and hang.
Yea I'm going to germ a seed hunters afgooey about three days before the dry finishes so that i can just drop it in and let it run.
My bucket never got slime, but the water temp was always below 74F and I did weekly res changes. I just boiled my hydroton for about 30 mins, cleaned my stones in a H2O2 and used the same solution to clean all my gear. It's all dry and ready for new air lines and water and a plant.

Looks like your grow is coming along, greenest of mojo for the finish :aok:


----------



## sopappy

Friggen' Tor won't let me post.
Oh ,halleluiah, it worked this time...  wow look at he size o' them stalks!! That oughta hold ya! 
I'm intimidated but timing is right... I'm going to try and tag along this time, hope you don't mind.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> snipped
> I just boiled my hydroton for about 30 mins, cleaned my stones in a H2O2 and used the same solution to clean all my gear.



Oh, I'm liking this detail you are getting in to, I like details hahaha, I read and read and read but it amazes me how I forget the damn details!

Quick one, how do you mix up your cleaning solution with the H2O2 ? The label warns me to dilute it but doesn't say how much ??? and do you wear gloves? I had a finger turn white just opening the cap

THANKS!

PS those nuggets sure looked pretty, anxious to see what you do with Boniva 62% ... this place is phenominal, get it? PHENOminal? I just read up on that and forgot most of it already, too complicated for me, I'm a smoker, not a grower
But I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night!


----------



## sopappy

Darn, this TOR browser is driving me crazy, I'll post when i figure out why it keeps logging me out !!! but it probably only happens to me.
So, Kraven, you have 20 minute headstart on me already ehhhh?
okay, hot on your heels.....


----------



## Kraven

:rofl: take your time, your welcome to tag along. I'll try to be specific in my journal. TOR is designed to keep your IP anonymous, if you bypass any of the built in safety features you have defeated the whole purpose of using TOR. This server is not hosted in the US so I use common sense and Mozilla Firefox to access this site. If your doing black market things then TOR is for you, but beware of the deep web, it's an unforgiving place.


----------



## P Jammers

Kravenhead said:


> This server is not hosted in the US



May want to check that. I did not used to be, but pretty sure that changed when it was taken over.


----------



## Kraven

Ah good to know PJ. I had seen in a post back a few days ago that it was not so I hope I was not in error?


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> :rofl: take your time, your welcome to tag along. I'll try to be specific in my journal. TOR is designed to keep your IP anonymous, if you bypass any of the built in safety features you have defeated the whole purpose of using TOR. This server is not hosted in the US so I use common sense and Mozilla Firefox to access this site. If your doing black market things then TOR is for you, but beware of the deep web, it's an unforgiving place.



I've been watching 'House of Cards' so nope, not going anywhere near the deep web. I TRY to keep things simple so I 'm just using the TOR browser and it makes me log in when I press QUOTE or it'll bring up the SEARCH page. I'm not into anything black market, just like anonymity re pot and porn but it's driving me nuts.

Oh, congrats on the new job, hope it goes well.


----------



## sopappy

I'm trying to keep up with Kraven hahaha, this should be fun. Well, here's one of two almost ready for the buckets. One came up two days after Kraven's but had a helmet on. The other is still slowly coming up the hole.
It bothers me leaving that hole uncovered but just like all things marijuana, I can't definitively say filling them in delayed the sprout or not.


update:   I moved both to the buckets where they just gave up, did nothing for a week, so they've been chucked.
I planted 7 more of these seeds from Iron Seeds in Toronto in the rooters and check out that picture after a week.
Absolutely pathetic..  temp is 21 constant, no nutes, rooter plugs, I can't believe it's me now, I'm blaming these seeds. 

View attachment finally.JPG


----------



## sopappy

I'm trying for one cola plants. (thanks, stoney buds and p jammers)
I trimmed all the branches but am now getting confused again. Here;s a picture of one of ten. 
Do I stop trimming now? I'm looking at those two branches starting near the top and wondering if they should be cut (or is that the botttom of the cola forming?) These plants are much older than they look having spent half their life in shock.
Thery are 24hrs and I'm thinking of 12/12 in when they're about 18" tall. 

View attachment trimforone.JPG


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> I'm trying to keep up with Kraven hahaha, this should be fun. Well, here's one of two almost ready for the buckets. One came up two days after Kraven's but had a helmet on. The other is still slowly coming up the hole.
> It bothers me leaving that hole uncovered but just like all things marijuana, I can't definitively say filling them in delayed the sprout or not.




Pappy it looks a bit wet for the seeds, never seen it done that way before. No need to catch up to me brother, I'm here to answer any questions I can and if i don't have the answer, i know where to find it. Greenest mojo, looks like the older plants are ready to flip?


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy it looks a bit wet for the seeds, never seen it done that way before. No need to catch up to me brother, I'm here to answer any questions I can and if i don't have the answer, i know where to find it. Greenest mojo, looks like the older plants are ready to flip?



Well, leave it to me to improvise... I couldn't find those wee cups you use so I used that bowl, then, I needed the balls to keep the rooters standing up. 4 are empty, I only started 2. One is still only half way up the hole. I make sure there's always water in the bottom of that bowl. 
Should I wait a bit when the bottom is dry?

I have to change my ventilation (thanks, THG) so I want to do that before 12/12 

How noisy is that new motor?
I have 2 bucket and 3 buckets and may veg while the other flowers, I don't know whether to go 2 small motors or 1 big one.

I'm also thinking about something ZEM said about leaving a bigger gap for a "misting" a la aeroponics effect... I wonder if it would help any to cycle the air stones so the roots dry out a bit.


----------



## sopappy

210 LED draw is actually 175 W, 
I cram two bins together under it for 2 x 2 sq ft. 
but  literature suggests 2 x 4 ft pattern, LED 2 1/2 feet away, that's 20 W  per sq  ft. Crummy. If I lower the lamp to a foot on the seedlings, will  it  harm them? Can I expect 40 W?
Literature be damned, I'll stay a fooot away as she grows.
I searched for LED burned plants, pictures, zip. Posts, hundreds.


----------



## Kraven

Did you get LED's Pappy ?


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Did you get LED's Pappy ?



Hmmmm, I thought I answered this last night... 
Hey Kraven, yep, I bought them about 2 - 3 years ago and paid way too much but I do prefer them, not as scary when you bump your head on one either


----------



## Kraven

Pappy I was not trying to offend you, I just did not realize I had forgotten that little detail in all our conversations. I saw you doing LED math and was inquiring as I have given thoughts to maybe switching in the future. All the real time numbers I have been hearing are a min of 60w per sq ft up to 90w for the best effect. So it seemed your math would put you below the recommended draw.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy I was not trying to offend you, I just  did not realize I had forgotten that little detail in all our  conversations. I saw you doing LED math and was inquiring as I have  given thoughts to maybe switching in the future. All the real time  numbers I have been hearing are a min of 60w per sq ft up to 90w for the  best effect. So it seemed your math would put you below the recommended  draw.



None taken, old bean. I think outloud and was questioning my state of  mind the previous evening. I've been having trouble, keeps logging me  out and once wasn't even here (for me anyways) for couple o' days... I've  stayed out of your new thread not posting much because I may have too  much read mojo and that is bad for plants, red mojo? get it? I 'm afraid I've already jinxed you! 
My  seedling is lonely but I dropped another one down a hole and this one  coming strangely. I sure wanna plug those holes. 
I used silicone on my buckets so the wait is okay, i want to let  it cure so using the T5s for now.
I'm trying two plants under  175W, 4 sq ft, 40 W ea., each plant should get 40 W, not too bad I'd  say. i'm optimistic HA! And I'm keeping the LED within a foot, I'm  probably misunderstanding.
If you're still there:
Is that motor noisy? I find 4 inch blowers noisy. Two stones in that "double" bucket. Pretty raucaus under that lid? 
Do you have it constantly on or are you letting them dry out at all?


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> if you're still there:
> yea pappy, i'll always be here
> 
> is that motor noisy? I find 4 inch blowers noisy.
> yea i run it with a muffler, its a 6 inch inline 146 cfm. Keeps my tent in neg pressure.
> 
> two stones in that "double" bucket. Pretty raucaus under that lid?
> yea i get plenty of bubbling.
> 
> do you have it constantly on or are you letting them dry out at all?
> yea it runs 24/7



:48:


----------



## sopappy

Thanks kindly. Are yoiu concerned at all about having to chill your water? 
I also think you're on to something with the bubbly bubbly ENO thing. I'm going to add that 
Your plant looks great, mine, not so much, you'd think those rooter plugs would be idiot-proof. I guess not. 


I'm struggling here as usual, haha, no pictures


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> :48:




Kraven, I don't know how you do it but you make it look easy. I'm still stumbling out of the starting gate here. This seedling was the only one of two to come up. In despair I just dumped the rest of the packet. Looks like two hopefuls I can salvage for the buckets. I think I hurt her tap root trying to plant the rooter plug in the clay balls. You can't make a hole with those balls. You can make a bowl but if the tap root is too long, do you just coil it and then fill in the balls?

:stuff-1125699181_i_ 

View attachment 100_0707.JPG


View attachment 100_0704.JPG


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> Kraven, I don't know how you do it but you make it look easy. I'm still stumbling out of the starting gate here. This seedling was the only one of two to come up. In despair I just dumped the rest of the packet. Looks like two hopefuls I can salvage for the buckets. I think I hurt her tap root trying to plant the rooter plug in the clay balls. You can't make a hole with those balls. You can make a bowl but if the tap root is too long, do you just coil it and then fill in the balls?
> 
> :stuff-1125699181_i_



Your learning pappy and that takes time, I have been doing the same thing the same way for years(poping beans) so yes i do have it down to a science, but you will too...soon. 

I just put the whole rapid rooter in and put the the hydroton around it. gonna run a chance of hurting the tap root as it is VERY fragile. If that last pic was a couple of days after you transplanted I would say it's ok, dunno....darn thing is a weed, hard to kill  

Here is my little baby starting to grow a little.

http://www.marijuanapassion.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Your learning pappy and that takes time, I have been doing the same thing the same way for years(poping beans) so yes i do have it down to a science, but you will too...soon.
> 
> I just put the whole rapid rooter in and put the the hydroton around it. gonna run a chance of hurting the tap root as it is VERY fragile. If that last pic was a couple of days after you transplanted I would say it's ok, dunno....darn thing is a weed, hard to kill
> 
> Here is my little baby starting to grow a little.
> 
> http://www.marijuanapassion.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/



I'd kill for a starter like that, things just go from bad to worse here so stay away !! too much red mojo!
I'm really starting to think that Iron Seeds in Toronto sold me garbage. Here's SEVEN more of their seeds planted 7 days ago, I mean, really, wth?
I can't really be *this* bad, can I? 

View attachment losers.JPG


----------



## Kraven

Hmmm, whats the greenish color on the rapid rooters, is that just artifacts from the flash? You need a couple of things to germ, moisture, but not wet, that will just drown it. Needs to be above 70F I like to germ between 70-75. Your seeds do seem to be underwhelming but I'm not sure how they have been treated. Do this....get a rapid rooter wet, then squeeze it out, drop a bean in and take a paper clip and softly jam the bean down till you cant see it. open the kitchen cabinet and lean it against the inside back so it stands up in the back corner, close the door, expect to see a plant in 3-5 days. *Don't touch it, don't look at it,* just look to see if you have a plant at about the third day, then check it once a day, you can go in and out of the cabinet as much as you want, just don't touch or move the rooter till 5 days


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> *Don't touch it, don't look at it,*



Trimmed forthe best part of the post !!
TOR is eating my posts, I responded earlier and it's gone now!

Hope you see this one, Kraven, first off, THANKS, I will follow instructions but already hitting a snag.
It's cool in there? 65 tops. 
I sat two plugs in de-chlor' city water, 6.2, 100 ppm until saturated
then squeezed sides once, then rotated and squeezed once
throwing them but not releasing, I hear a slight, slight spray on a surface

I use tweezers and have two laughing buddha waiting to amaze me.
Probe in plug is 60 degrees! so I put a mat in there (sarright?).
I have not planted seeds yet.

Moss  on my 9 other ones and you saying not to water these plugs AT ALL is  giving me big clues as to what I'm doing wrong here 

I'm taking the 7 and putting them in soil, maybe they'll recover. 

View attachment monday.JPG


----------



## Kraven

Looks good, just need to get them above 70, I like around 75. The cable box turned on its side seems to be the right warmth. You don't want the plugs to dry out either might need to spray them a time or two to keep them moist. Everything looks good though. You should see healthy green plants in about 3-5 days. Green mojo


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Looks good, just need to get them above 70, I like around 75. The cable box turned on its side seems to be the right warmth. You don't want the plugs to dry out either might need to spray them a time or two to keep them moist. Everything looks good though. You should see healthy green plants in about 3-5 days. Green mojo



I couldn't get the plug to 70 even with the mat. I have them on a hot plate now that keeps the plugs at about 71. (I added the unsprouted plugs to the plate (I had the room) and moved the sprouted ones to under the LED. I'm only opening that door to check they aren't drying out...

I know you're busy with the new grow, pop by when you can, anybody else see me doing anything dumb here, feel free to jump in. 

View attachment plate.jpg


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

I have poor past success rate with rooter plugs.. I have no good info.


----------



## Grower13

:48:


----------



## Kraven

It's looking good pappy, just make sure not to dry the plugs out or get them too hot and be patient 3-5 days and you will have success, then just move them in to what ever media your running.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> It's looking good pappy, just make sure not to dry the plugs out or get them too hot and be patient 3-5 days and you will have success, then just move them in to what ever media your running.



That's easy for you to say, you're not living with a poltrergeist in there. 
The hot plate keeps them at 70 - 73 but the heat is dry and I'm  trying to keep my mitts off !!! But the plugs are drying out. I'd like to  pour water in to that tray, let them soak it up and then pour off the  excess but you said no touching so I spread drops from a syringe on the  tops.

On the bright side, I'm almost ready to flower those survivors, I never thought THAT would happen.


----------



## Kraven

Great pappy, your doing the right thing it sounds, don't get them too wet. The bean that I dropped when you did just sprouted this morning so I put the plug in the dirt under the lights, it's go time for her. You should get some sprouts today or tomorrow at the latest if you did it right...remember, moist not wet....that's the key. Green mojo.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Great pappy, your doing the right thing it sounds, don't get them too wet. The bean that I dropped when you did just sprouted this morning so I put the plug in the dirt under the lights, it's go time for her. You should get some sprouts today or tomorrow at the latest if you did it right...remember, moist not wet....that's the key. Green mojo.



She's up today just as you said but still has a helmet on. I'm NOT touching it


----------



## Kraven

Woohoo gratz pappy. The point of this exercise was to help you see how easy it is to sprout seeds. Warm dark place, just keep it moist and give it time to do its own thing. The seed casing will most likely fall off but every once in awhile there is a need to take tweezers and carefully help. Here is a pic of the one that just popped for me, she is in the plug, in the dirt under a 400w MH and she is 1 day old. The whole cabinet thing was to get you to focus on just letting nature take its course and providing the seed what it needs to germ. Now that you see how easy it is to germ you can tailor your germing process to fit your needs better, just wanted you to really see how the rapid rooters work if done correctly. Here is a pic and gratz again man, your off to the races now brother :yay::banana::farm::icon_smile:


----------



## sopappy

okay, 10 minutes to get done here, 
weehoo, Kra Ven! Kra Ven! been walking around in here hahaha
but I'm thinking it's seeds too, both of these were Barneys from a blister pack, the others I'm still waiting for or come up and die were in vials.
And feminized. Man, they come up wimpy. And this helmet thing, I'm thinking it's because they come up the well and it doesn't get scraped off, it's awful. She has a sturdy looking stem though so I"M NOT TOUCHING IT 
What about light? I'm leaving door open and window in there but when do I move to T5 or LEDs?
I want to put them in buckets with clay pellets.

After my wake & bake, that light made it look you had furrows ploughed in that pot and I'm thinking this guy is nuts ahahaha
They sure look pretty though, another healthy looking sprout eager to grow, mine look terrified. 

View attachment 100_0740.jpg


View attachment 100_0737.jpg


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Here's a trick to the helmets. Spray with a gentle mist, at least 5-8 times...get the helmet good and wet. Give it 60 seconds, then spray again 5 times...then gently start to "wiggle" the hat off, NOT pulling up too much!! If it "floats" around on the head of the sprout then it will come off. If the sprout moves WITH the helmet, leave it alone another day. 

The water will loosen the membrane that is holding the helmet to the top. :aok:


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Here's a trick to the helmets. Spray with a gentle mist, at least 5-8 times...get the helmet good and wet. Give it 60 seconds, then spray again 5 times...then gently start to "wiggle" the hat off, NOT pulling up too much!! If it "floats" around on the head of the sprout then it will come off. If the sprout moves WITH the helmet, leave it alone another day.
> 
> The water will loosen the membrane that is holding the helmet to the top. :aok:



I have seen it before and they usually bust out but I've had such crummy luck, I'm afraid to touch them. I did touch one once lightly with a brush and it fell off, I like your check re her moving with the lid, I will try that. I fear leaving it too long is a bigger risk. Thanks. Did you see the helmet stuff when you tried these rooters?

helmet stuck on there pretty good :-(


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

> I fear leaving it too long is a bigger risk.



Yes, that can be an issue... rare, but I've seen it personally so probably not THAT rare. I haven't used rooters to pop seeds with, so I can't give my ideas there. Just keep the helmet wet when you wiggle :aok:


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Yeah, leaving them on can rarely actually hurt them. Just keep wetting and wiggling every now and then. Just remember absolutely NO "tugging" (per say) so you don't mess with the very frail tap root.


----------



## Kraven

Pappy both of those can go into a medium now. Doc is right about the seed casing. As soon as it pops it needs to go under the lights, that's why they are stretching now. Your doing good pappy. Your gonna have some nice plants. see how white the stems are, that tells me you had the moisture level perfect :aok: if the stems start turning purple or getting dark then they are not getting enough oxygen, it's the first sign of over watering or not enough dissolved 02 in your solution. Plug them in man and get your grow started


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy both of those can go into a medium now.  Doc is right about the seed casing. As soon as it pops it needs to go  under the lights, that's why they are stretching now. Your doing good  pappy. Your gonna have some nice plants. see how white the stems are,  that tells me you had the moisture level perfect :aok:  if the stems start turning purple or getting dark then they are not  getting enough oxygen, it's the first sign of over watering or not  enough dissolved 02 in your solution. Plug them in man and get your grow  started



NOW? I thought I was supposed to wait for a root to poke out the bottom.
Also, they look too frail to drop in clay pellets, I'll crush them, no?
Okay, okay, I'm off to set up the buckets (and the drip)

That helmet is stuck good! I'm putting a drop of water on it periodically.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Yeah, leaving them on can rarely actually hurt them. Just keep wetting and wiggling every now and then. Just remember absolutely NO "tugging" (per say) so you don't mess with the very frail tap root.



check, I put a drop on it and can see water between shell and green but no movement :-(


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Set it up but you won't put it in yet. You'll put the rooters under a light (very minimal) and give them time to establish their cotyledons (first two round shiny leaves) and get a root system going...but it will want a minimum amount of lumens. NOT TOO MUCH, and at this point do not let the rooters dry out.. also don't over wet


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Let me see if I can dig up fighting a helmet in an old journal  (just for fun really)


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Hah! Here's the opposite I just found. You see, I germ using paper towel method. Anyways... this time, after 24 hours I opened up and saw THIS!! hahahahh It ran right out of its helmet!


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Here's some helmet experiences: 






















VV This one had to be "deshelled" and it was tough, but I don't think it would have made it had I not helped it along VV







VV And this is just pretty  VV






VV This is one that I never took the helmet off. This was one of my first germs ever..I did end up taking it off the stem VV






VV Only had a small tap root. Inserted into medium VV


----------



## Kraven

Pappy, at this point I take the whole rapid rooter and gently either put it in the hydroton and turn the drip ring on till the tap root hits the water or just bury the plug in the dirt give it a light watering in and then I put it under my MH. It is raised to 4 foot above the seedling on 24/7, and then it comes down a little each day till its at 18" and it seems to work out real well for me. Either way got to keep the plug moist now, again, not wet just moist, and it needs light, it's grow time. Look at the difference between day one (first pic) and day two (second pic). once they pop they are ready to rock.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Here's some helmet experiences:



So I'm not the only one who waits around for seeds to HATCH !!!
For the love of Pete, what next?
I don't see any green on this one and it's looking grim. I think the other one will just fall over in solidarity, there's something in the air in here.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy, at this point I take the whole rapid rooter and gently either put it in the hydroton and turn the drip ring on till the tap root hits the water or just bury the plug in the dirt give it a light watering in and then I put it under my MH. It is raised to 4 foot above the seedling on 24/7, and then it comes down a little each day till its at 18" and it seems to work out real well for me. Either way got to keep the plug moist now, again, not wet just moist, and it needs light, it's grow time. Look at the difference between day one (first pic) and day two (second pic). once they pop they are ready to rock.



Once they get some green going, it's exponential, I just can't seem to get out of the starting gate AGAIN. But I'm listening. I fired up the  buckets and placed the two of them in the hydroton. I'm trying to be  optimistic but it's looking pretty grim down there. I have them under  the LED, 30 inches. It's not the warmest in there but it's above 65.


----------



## Kraven

Hang in there pappy, I'm sure everything will pull through fine, sending green mojo your way man.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Hang in there pappy, I'm sure everything will pull through fine, sending green mojo your way man.



She still had the helmet this morning but was standing straight up. I  held her stem and helped it off, at least half of it anyways. I hope  that green mojo sticks.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy, at this point I take the whole rapid  rooter and gently either put it in the hydroton and turn the drip ring  on till the tap root hits the water......



I'll never forget that picture. But your drip looked nowhere near the  seedling and even THG remarked that it looked dry around the seedling.  Does moisture move through the pellets the way it moves through say, a  'sponge"?
I have the water level just above the bottom of the net pot.


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> I'll never forget that picture. But your drip looked nowhere near the  seedling and even THG remarked that it looked dry around the seedling.  Does moisture move through the pellets the way it moves through say, a  'sponge"?
> I have the water level just above the bottom of the net pot.



That is correct, it will move along the hydroton to keep the plug moist, if you have a drip ring going then drop the water level to 2-3" below the net pot. you want the roots to look for moisture, and with the air stone going its keeping the hydroton moist up though about the bottom half. Sounds like your on track, just don't want to drown the plant or cause it to damp off (it's a fungus).


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

> I held her stem and helped it off, at least half of it anyways. I hope that green mojo sticks.



Make sure to spray again up under where you freshly took off :aok:


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Make sure to spray again up under where you freshly took off :aok:



I was afraid to spray, I used a dropper to drop drops on her and then I'd soak off the excess with a napkin. Both look okay this morning, runts, but I see teenie, tiny real leaves starting.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Don't soak it off... let it soak into the membrane. At least, this is what I do. 

And obviously if you spray, use your sprayer away from the cutting first to "prime" the spray nozzle and make sure your mist is super fine. :aok: 

Grats on leaves!


----------



## sopappy

I guess these two would be two days old now. It looks awfully wet compared to Kraven's bucket but what to do, slow that flow to a trickle ? 

View attachment monday 020.JPG


View attachment closer.JPG


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Don't soak it off... let it soak into the membrane. At least, this is what I do.
> 
> And obviously if you spray, use your sprayer away from the cutting first to "prime" the spray nozzle and make sure your mist is super fine. :aok:
> 
> Grats on leaves!



I should have said I was afraid to spray "with my sprayer". Not much of a mist setting. Even with the eyedropper, the drops were scary heavy when she was still hanging her head and I was afraid the drop would pull her down.
I'm thinking this is an issue with fem seeds. First time I've used them and half don't germ, some come up and die, and some don't come up at all. Every single seedling has looked weak and sickly too.
I had better results tossing bag seed in dirt.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

lol... people that worry about over dampening. (I've read so much in the last few months)

I have a hard time seeing that, and maybe it's my climate. I would worry about it drying out MORE than being too damp when they are (rooted)babies! Keep her wet IMO! 

The wet/dry cycle is GREAT....for a fully established (larger) root zone.


----------



## sopappy

Doc, how close would you put your LED to seedlings like these?
Documentation says 30 inch, but I saw stretching and panicked, lowered it to 14 inches, been about 10 hours, they "look" okay


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

I would do 24" :aok:

No closer than 20" for a seedling, BUT.... I have 0 knowledge with LED's and seedlings / early veg.


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> I guess these two would be two days old now. It looks awfully wet compared to Kraven's bucket but what to do, slow that flow to a trickle ?



_*Looking good Pappy, I'm proud of you*_. Your well on your way now,  Doc has good info on LED's, that's not my strong point yet. They look fine, they are doing just what they need to do. No worries about them getting to wet, that stuff just runs right through the hydroton, it just wicks a small amount over to keep everything moist. If your in a DWC or modified DWC when the first root hits the water, stop the drip rings and hold on, they veg at 200% speed in hydro. I could only veg two weeks, I flipped a 19 day old plant into bloom and that was my last grow(the BF 8 Ball Kush) which by the way is some mighty fine smoke...takes another toke :48:


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> _*Looking good Pappy, I'm proud of you*_.  Your well on your way now,  Doc has good info on LED's, that's not my  strong point yet. They look fine, they are doing just what they need to  do. No worries about them getting to wet, that stuff just runs right  through the hydroton, it just wicks a small amount over to keep  everything moist. If your in a DWC or modified DWC when the first root  hits the water, stop the drip rings and hold on, they veg at 200% speed  in hydro. I could only veg two weeks, I flipped a 19 day old plant into  bloom and that was my last grow(the BF 8 Ball Kush) which by the way is  some mighty fine smoke...takes another toke :48:



ALL CATS ARE EVIL.
And I thought I was torturing plants, eaten alive? My gawd

And Jesus, you're setting the bar pretty high here, I'm just glad they're still alive, they look frail as heck. Right now, I have no nutes, city water PH about 5.0 
I'll check for roots this Sunday, 7 days and change solution.
I'll add nutes but go fo 5.5 and 200ppm ???

The pump stinks. I can handle the noise but, the thing stinks, made in China, cheap carcinogenic permanent lube I suppose, awful smelly

MANIFOLD
I  saw this on one of your pictures, big fat stem divides then divides  again. You trained it but didn't discuss it. I'd like to try that.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

I believe PH wants to be around 5.5 no? That's what you do when you soak Rockwool or Rapid Rooter, so I would think 5.5 is the sweet spot there?


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Maybe get a new pump if it's stinky? Not sure how you mean.


----------



## Kraven

Sure I can let ya in on manifolding, it's like mainlining 8 cola's, you will have to tie them up because they will get too heavy and break the plant. Look for yooper420's grow log it's recent and he is manifolding, the pic's will go a long way to show you how to make your trims. Basically you let the plant get four nodes high, then you top it so there are only two shoots coming out, that includes the trunk, you cut all the bottom off so you have a "Y" shaped plant. then you lst them and wait for them to grow 4 nodes then you top them, lst them and the wait till they get four nodes high and top for the last time, and you have 8 main colas


----------



## Kraven

naw you want your pH to start at 5.7 and ramp up to 6.1 over a few days


----------



## Kraven

Agree on the pump, my new one cost me $29 and it is really a commercial one.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> I believe PH wants to be around 5.5 no? That's what you do when you soak Rockwool or Rapid Rooter, so I would think 5.5 is the sweet spot there?



Yes, I'll shoot for that next batch. I overshot the runway with the pH down this batch but figured it didn't matter this early


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Agree on the pump, my new one cost me $29 and it is really a commercial one.



stinks you mean? I hope that goes away with use. 
I have 5 buckets, one of those pumps enough or should I get another?


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Sure I can let ya in on manifolding, it's like mainlining 8 cola's,
> 
> eyes glazing over
> 
> you will have to tie them up because they will get too heavy and break the plant.
> 
> oh noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo I woulnd't want to have THAT problem!
> 
> Look for yooper420's grow log
> 
> exsolent, thanks, the search ain't so great here
> 
> it's  recent and he is manifolding, the pic's will go a long way to show you  how to make your trims. Basically you let the plant get four nodes high,  then you top it so there are only two shoots coming out, that includes  the trunk, you cut all the bottom off so you have a "Y" shaped plant.  then you lst them and wait for them to grow 4 nodes then you top them,  lst them and the wait till they get four nodes high and top for the last  time, and you have 8 main colas



fa kin supa


----------



## Kraven

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70934


this is his most recent journal


----------



## Kraven

Here is a good place and it has the scoop man.


www.growweedeasy.com


----------



## sopappy

yup, I'm watching his grow hoping for more pictures and am at that site often. Very thorough but nothing quite like looking over someone's shoulder hahaha
I just killed the lights in the flower room and those battle weary gals are looking for some action!


----------



## sopappy

5 days old. Everything is so slooooow in here. Looks like I'm going to loose the one that had trouble with the helmet. 

View attachment 100_0753.JPG


View attachment 100_0752.JPG


----------



## Kraven

Just keep plugging along pappy, i'm sure things will turn around, the bottom one looks good.


----------



## sopappy

Well, I have a dozen in the flower room so my spirits are high but it's still discouraging and I'm still cursing in there. But I also smell grow in there again now and that helps a lot. I was reading up on the manifolding and stumbled across a defoliation article that fascinated me. I just ripped half the fan leaves off my dirty dozen last night and the rest come off tonight.


----------



## Kraven

Wow, wonder why you would do that pappy ?


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Wow, wonder why you would do that pappy ?



I figure these plants should all be dead anyways so what do I have to lose?
You warned me months ago that they'd not likely deliver much so this is like a "Hail Mary" play I guess.
And, in other news, the second seedling is giving up as well. 
I'm dropping another 3 from a blister pack again tonight.
I just don't get it, it used to be sooooo easy. Lousy yields but at least I HAD yields.
:fid:


----------



## Kraven

Don't get discouraged pappy, it will come back maybe you just got some bad or old beans?


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Don't get discouraged pappy, it will come back maybe you just got some bad or old beans?



That was my first thought almost 6 months ago. They're all from Iron Seeds in Toronto and he made me wait TWO MONTHS. Then he doubled my order and all fem so hard to moan about that.... but I think something went terribly wrong there during those two months. 
I'm down to my last 10 seeds so I'll be looking for a reliable source. I'd like to buy from the same place at the same time and the same strain as anybody else buying in next few months, pretty much the only way I can prove it's NOT me. Seriously, I've had better luck from bag seed.


----------



## Kraven

Pappy here is a good place to get good beans, great genetics and no bull ****.

http://www.firestax.com


Try them and see, that's where a bunch of us get our beans at.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy here is a good place to get good beans, great genetics and no bull ****.
> 
> http://www.firestax.com
> 
> 
> Try them and see, that's where a bunch of us get our beans at.



Excellent, thanks. when I'm ready, I'll post asking if anyone is ordering from there and I'll order the same strain at the same time unless that's inappropriate. UK, could be a month, I also "read somewhere", someone theorized they might be getting scanned and damaged somehow.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> naw you want your pH to start at 5.7 and ramp up to 6.1 over a few days



[FONT=&quot]
That's for the hydro buckets, right? 
I noticed on my Bloom nutes, it sez to aim for 5.7 in soil, soil-less or water culture. The only difference is in ppms, 850 and 1150 for water
That surprised me. Seems to me they wouldn't eat anything, need 6.3 min according to most charts...small wonder I'm always second guessing myself
and how do you adjust ppm without affecting ppms?
(no need to answer, just venting)
[/FONT]


----------



## sopappy

I opened another Barney's Farm blister pack.
Filled the holes in 3 rapid rooters. Flipped them over, and cut a half inch deep slit with a razor blade.
A bone dry rooter weighs about 4g. 
A fresh plug out of the bag weighs about 13 - 15g
3 of them weigh 45 plus 10 for the tray.
They sit on the same mat that keeps the reservoir at about 22C
about 3 1/2 feet from the LED
After about 10 hours, the tray weighs about 20g less so I add 20mL of water and the plugs suck it up.
(A ml of water weighs 1 gram)
If the plugs don't ever weigh less then say 7g or more than 15g
(walks away muttering to himself)


----------



## Kraven

Yes for hydro you want to run that range maybe even 5.6-6.3, the closer you get to flower they higher you go. In veg I run 5.5-5.9 then reset, in flower I run 5.9-6.3 then reset. They don't need as much N in flower. But plenty of P & K. Soil I run 6.3.-6.7 in veg and flower I run more like 6.5-6.9.


----------



## sopappy

hahaha, biological clocks...  flower is on 7 - 7 schedule, lights out 7am, I left the door open last night and woke up this morning at 6:55, scooted downstairs and closed the door just as the light went out.
And I see a sprout! no helmet but puny, puny, puny, what a struggle this is. I can't believe ALL of these seeds are bad but I'll be darned if I can see where I'm killing them.... seems consistent too: they come up and go in to suspended animation.

I tried a picture of the seedling but not able to get a decent focus. The one on the left came from a plug started in old soil. it had a helmet that cost her a leaf. They are both about 2 weeks old, I'm losing track, drop like flies.
They look okay now to me but growth sure is slow.
I haven't lifted the pot to check for roots yet, I've been expecting explosive growth to be the indicator :rofl: 

View attachment 100_0776.jpg


----------



## Kraven

Yea thats weird pappy. Seems they all are not very viable. may be old stock or just a lot of bad seeds. hope you get something going soon bro. green mojo.


----------



## sopappy

2 out of 3 are up and no helmets (4 days, not bad). I won't use those wells in the rooters anymore. They seem healthy enough but sure look tiny. I put the plugs in the pellets but did NOT hook up the drip or reservoir. I'm still waiting (two weeks) for the roots to show on the original two (pictured) pots so I figure I'll just hand water the two new ones until roots show below the net pot.

I guess i should have been checking. I just lifted one this morning and one of them had a root about two feet long !!! the other? nothin' (drives me nuts)
So I set up the bubblers, added some nutes and hoping for some action.


----------



## Kraven

The one with the long tap root should take off...this is where you have to keep your ppm and ph in tight check, it's go time pappy...gl man and green mojo.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> The one with the long tap root should take off...this is where you have to keep your ppm and ph in tight check, it's go time pappy...gl man and green mojo.



I have 4 seedlings in 4 buckets now, all crammed under that small LED. The other LED is busy in the flower. TWO OF THAT BUNCH WERE MALES!!! After all that stress, I feel I was lucky only 2.

I have to find my p.jammer notes on the feeding thing. I was not expecting to see a root this morning, I'm scrambling now hahaha


----------



## sopappy

my ppms were way high 1500... I diluted to about 500 and ph at 5.6

here are the two males I DIDN'T NOTICE until this morning !!!  All were femmed so it was at the back of my mind and I just thought it was a funny looking bud forming hahaha, they really did not look like males at all in veg, no balls at all! 

Another picture of the gang who couldn't grow straight... I didn't think they'd grow,now I'm out of light! I need that LED

and here's the 4 in buckets, that rooter is for the 5th bucket,
oh, upside down, they are easier so nessle in the pellets, the wider base holds them down. 

View attachment motly crew.JPG


View attachment two bastards.JPG


View attachment the bucket brigade.JPG


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Yes for hydro you want to run that range maybe even 5.6-6.3, the closer you get to flower they higher you go. In veg I run 5.5-5.9 then reset, in flower I run 5.9-6.3 then reset. They don't need as much N in flower. But plenty of P & K. Soil I run 6.3.-6.7 in veg and flower I run more like 6.5-6.9.



What do you mean by reset?


----------



## Kraven

The res, you want to feed and I'm going to use imaginary numbers to help you understand. So on res change day, you fill the res back with new nutes @ 1000ppm w/ ph of 5.6 as time goes by the plant is going to drink and eat. you want to only add back water between res changes. so day 1 ppm 975 and ph 5.7 then the next day its ppm 925 and ph 6.0, you need to add back a gallon of 5.7 to get the ph back to 5.8. the idea is to feed once a week and add back ph water the rest, keeping the ppms going down and the ph going up. if it's not following this ramp then the ppm is either too low, thae plant wants more food or the ppm is too high the plant is just drinking.


----------



## sopappy

Thanks for spelling that out like that, you summed it up perfectly. (No wonder your girls are so happy) I can see why they'd be hungry for more nutes but I'm not seeing why they stop eating and just drink if there's too much food available. I wish I'd payed more attention in science class. Years ago, my son told me you could hear a pin drop in those classes.


----------



## Kraven

Hopefully it made sense. if the ppms are to high the ph will go down (more salts as water is being taken but not nutes) and the ppms will go up (more salts less water) if the ppm are too low your ph will be all over the place. you will know the sweet spot when your ph stabilizes and the ramp happens. Thats what you hear about when we talk about the plants telling us what they need. once you understand how ph and ppms are tied together and you learn how to read them you can fix problems instantly in hydro before much damage is done. You will get the hang of it pappy, just keep at it.


----------



## sopappy

TOR just told me NOT to re-size my screen, I could be tracked. Anybody seen that? I max windows all the time, doesn't everybody? it defeats TOR apparently. I'm having a heck of a time NOT doing it.
NO CHANGE in pH or ppm 36 hours later.


----------



## sopappy

holy crap, I have to think about a chiller already?
res is 22.8 today, room about 24, I threw a huge plastic wrapped ice cube in the res but strikes me as mickey mouse but a chiller, I hope the ice cube works :-(


----------



## sopappy

Ph droping and ppm creeping up, today 1180 from 1130, 5.6 from 5.7
So, if I'm getting this, the seedlings are drinking but not eating, ppm is too high.
So, I added 8 litres (which surprised me) of pH 6.0 city water 
and result is pH of 5.9 and ppms down to 800

Ice cube in plastic brought res down 2 degrees C overnight. 
Now at 20 C and removed to re-freeze the "cubes"
I'll add them again at 22

But of course with this farming ****, nothing is ever the same two damn days in a row!
Same cubes, same temps, same time, 23 this morning. It worked the first night but not the 2nd BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA I'm not cut out for this.


----------



## Kraven

Pappy it sorta strain specific but 1180 is super high for seedlings, here is my general rule of thumb, but the plant gets the final say:

seedlings 50-150ppm
young veg 150-250ppm
full veg 250-800ppm depending on the plants needs.
flower 600-800ppm depending on the plants needs.

Thats a rough outline pappy, but is sort of a place to start ...1180 is just way too high.


----------



## sopappy

I drained it. I skipped the nutes as just using 1/4 strength Thrive was 110ppm. So this new mix is at 5.5 and 110 ppm.


----------



## Kraven

One drop of super thrive made a gallon of waters ppm change 110, wow. I only use super thrive in my seed starter mix when I soak my rapid rooters. Are the plants healthy and not in shock ? If so it's not needed by the plant.


----------



## Kraven

Sounds like the ppm is much better, you need to watch your plant and your numbers so it will tell you what to do. your gonna get this pappy


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> One drop of super thrive made a gallon of waters ppm change 110, wow. I only use super thrive in my seed starter mix when I soak my rapid rooters. Are the plants healthy and not in shock ? If so it's not needed by the plant.



I don't think it's the same stuff:
"Power Thrive is not a plant food; it is a carefully formulated blend of vitamin and natural plant hormones for use during all phases of plant development. Power Thrive helps your plants survive during stressful periods of growth, especially when starting seeds, transplanting, or taking cuttings. Power Thrive also ensures stronger, more vigorous vegetative growth"

Label called for 4ml per L, I gave 1mL per L
or 30 ml for the two buckets.
I could have used weak nute solution but I've got a jug of this stuff.

I don't think they're in shock but your grows always look like fast motion to me


----------



## Kraven

Lol in hydro yes they seem to just zoom along, my organic grow is going a bit slower, but I'm enjoying the lazy pace it has set. Yea it sounds like it's not the same stuff I'm thinking of, just keep plugging along pappy, your here among friends and peeps who have been just where you are. I'm looking forward to seeing the girls in flower. Good luck and green mojo pappy


----------



## sopappy

NUTES
No zooming here. I'm embarrassed to post pictures. All 4 look like crap. Ph has not moved for 48hrs in either set-up and ppms slowly rising IF it's even moving at all, maybe 10ppm up. So I must be starving them now, I guess another res change and I'll try again, no Thrive, weak nutes, 200ppm 5.5Ph

OXYGEN vs PH
I've got some nice bubblers in there powered by that noisy monster and I'm reading that oxygen raises pH. Those 4 buckets are doing a slow rolling boil that I can hear but that's not enough to change the ph?

LEDS 
The two newest look like they are stretching with the LED 175W (draw)  at 18 inches but I'm reading LEDS are TOO strong and should be farther away ???

oh yah, and the ice cube trick, ya, that worked 
ONCE!!

This stuff is friggen' VOODOO


----------



## sopappy

The heating pad and rigid foam are gone. I have the buckets sitting on a concrete floor (hoping for some additional cooling). I'm having trouble keeping the res below 22 (72)
and the ice cube thing is getting silly.
I'm thinking a wort chiller might be doable, a small one in each res. An aquarium chiller maybe but most I see are 300 bucks and lucky if it'll do one bucket.

Here's latest picture, I sure get funny looking plants. I've never seen seedlings do what these two latest are doing, looks like a stretch and leaves are strangely large. 

View attachment sigh.JPG


View attachment bigleaf.JPG


----------



## Kraven

The bottom two look fine pappy, the large leaves are a sign of good health and possible indica leaning, but really hard to tell at this stage. anyway it looks like its coming along pappy, top two might be hungry, hard to tell would nee close ups of each plant to really give you my opinion, but from what i can tell your off to a good start bro.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> The bottom two look fine pappy, the large leaves are a sign of good health and possible indica leaning, but really hard to tell at this stage. anyway it looks like its coming along pappy, top two might be hungry, hard to tell would nee close ups of each plant to really give you my opinion, but from what i can tell your off to a good start bro.



Love that new avatar, Kraven... the one of the girl made me feel, well, awkward, in that, you are a fella and she was not 

I thought I had two more freaks, thanks kindly for that post, I sure hope you're right.  

I'm screwing up, ppms and pH... some gardeners shouldn't smoke on the job


----------



## sopappy

I'm going to make my own wee wort coolers. Stainless steel is very expensive so I'm thinking zinc-plated steel tubing is just fine and quite a bit cheaper.
[ame]http://www.amazon.ca/Allstar-ALL48327-Diameter-Stainless-Coiled/dp/B006K8MBU8[/ame]

(ad is wrong, it is NOT stainless)

Any harm in putting a coil of this zinc plated steel in my res?


----------



## Kraven

Pappy, I really don't know. I know that the soup your growing in has and acidic pH (5.7) so I'm not sure what metals would be safe and which would be corroded. I use copper in my still but that's a whole different animal. Google reservoir coolers and see it there is a DIY like a swamp cooler that might work for your application. What has the water temp been, ideally between 65-68 hopefully.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy, I really don't know. I know that the soup your growing in has and acidic pH (5.7) so I'm not sure what metals would be safe and which would be corroded. I use copper in my still but that's a whole different animal. Google reservoir coolers and see it there is a DIY like a swamp cooler that might work for your application. What has the water temp been, ideally between 65-68 hopefully.



I can only keep them that low if I use giant plastic ice cubes (it's absurd)
Doing nothing, it creeps up to 73 so I'll hafta spend again :-(

I'm thinking I'll hafta ebay 2 wort coolers and drop them in the two reses

I read all day about brewing beer and metals. Something about copper I didn't like but I can't remember now. Stainless steel is okay (apparently) Where's that plumber? She'd know.


----------



## Kraven

Ask THG she will have a better feel and she does hydro so she may have already solved your issue.


----------



## sopappy

I just did , she's the plumber, isn't she?
And seein' as you're sitting there at the PC.... here's my latest pictures but they're not much better than you've seen. I'm stumbling with the pH and ppm but some of it is sinking in. I just hope I catch on before I kill 'em!
I added the bunch in the flower chamber, I'm thinking I probably shouldn't have trimmed those so aggressively. 

View attachment one.JPG


View attachment two.JPG


View attachment three.JPG


View attachment four.JPG


View attachment menagerie.JPG


----------



## Kraven

Pappy, it does look like you have had ph issues, but your learning. The little ones look sorta fried from nutes, but the good thing about hydro is you can just dump the res and fix things instantly....well it works the other way too, things can get pretty out of control quickly. I say keep plugging along, your getting it and the most important thing is your learning from your mistakes. I think the little ones will be fine. the ones in flower don't look bad, hopefully they were within the two week window after the flip, if not then your harvest will suffer, but your still gonna get weed bro, so thats the plus


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy, it does look like you have had ph issues, but your learning. The little ones look sorta fried from nutes, but the good thing about hydro is you can just dump the res and fix things instantly....well it works the other way too, things can get pretty out of control quickly. I say keep plugging along, your getting it and the most important thing is your learning from your mistakes. I think the little ones will be fine. the ones in flower don't look bad, hopefully they were within the two week window after the flip, if not then your harvest will suffer, but your still gonna get weed bro, so thats the plus [/QUOTE
> 
> pH issues, ppm issues, leak issues, temperature issues, anger issues, noise issues, germination issues, watering issues, money issues,
> 
> BUT I LOVE IT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Thanks for checking in, Kraven, much appreciated!
> I guess that THRIVE stuff IS food, dammit.
> and yup, trimming done within first two weeks but BOY, did I trim, almost all the fans, GONE.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy, I really don't know. I know that the soup your growing in has and acidic pH (5.7) so I'm not sure what metals would be safe and which would be corroded. I use copper in my still but that's a whole different animal. Google reservoir coolers and see it there is a DIY like a swamp cooler that might work for your application. What has the water temp been, ideally between 65-68 hopefully.



Kraven! Our first fight!
65 - 68 for res temp? 
I say that's too cool for roots... I shoot for 68 - 72 
Is there a difference between soil and water for root temps?
Don't tell me 68 - 72 is for dirt and 65 - 68 is for water???


----------



## sopappy

My nutes label sez NOT to store the product (in a plastic jug) on concrete floors. Anybody know what that's all about?
Does that mean I shouldn't have my buckets directly on concrete as well?


----------



## sopappy

numbers this morning
5.8 / 330   for the 2 bigger ones
5.8 / 290   for the 2 smaller ones
I added pH'd 5.7 water last night but these ppms are still high compared to your suggestions.
Should I mix up a fresh batch for both?


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> Kraven! Our first fight!
> 65 - 68 for res temp?
> I say that's too cool for roots... I shoot for 68 - 72
> Is there a difference between soil and water for root temps?
> Don't tell me 68 - 72 is for dirt and 65 - 68 is for water???



The higher the temp of the water the lower the Dissolved Oxygen content will be. One reason you want to keep the solution temp under 72 is to maintain enough DO in the solution. There is 15% less  dissolved oxygen in 73 degree water than 65 degree water, and that can  make a big difference to plant health. I shoot to keep my res between 65-68 if possible, @ 72 your running the risk of pythium and other nasty's to be able to set up shop and that will compete with your plant for resources. Pappy lift the net pots and make sure your roots are pure white, no yellow muck or black crap growing anywhere in your system. This is not a fight bro, it is an exchange of ideas which is both healthy and encouraged. I don't have all the answers, and all the answers I give may not be the best ones, I continue to learn every day bro, keep up the good work, your gonna get this man.


----------



## Kraven

I would empty the res and just run pure water for a day, try to help flush the extra salts outa your plants. Then go back at 250ppm and see how they react. Start them off around 5.6 pH and just top off with pH'ed water as the pH rises to 6.2. Allow the res to take this ramp slowly, this should take 3-4 days. What your looking for is the pH to slowly rise as the ppm slowly goes down. @ 7 days you empty the system, clean the res and reset the res @ 5.6 and a ppm of 250. Now if the ppm goes down fast but the pH does not rise much or it starts to go down then you need to up the ppm by 100. If the pH falls and the ppm rises you have the ppms too high. This is the tricky part that you have to get a feel for, is the strain a light feeder, is it finicky, how much food can you push on it before you burn the roots....all of this comes with practice and getting to know a strain and it's pheno's. The MOST important thing is that you DO NOT allow rapid pH swings, that will really mess your plant up, ppm is not the big issue in veg it is pH, if your feeding is light you can always add some but if you go too heavy the damage happens really fast, and cannot be undone. Your gonna get this pappy, I have faith in you, just keep going. DWC is a really hard thing to run and keep regulated, I found that out on my last DWC grow though experience, hence I will never run another DWC, it's just too much of a hassle. I'll be moving to and ebb/flow table and be in coco chunk when i move back into hydro, right now my organic soil grow is really doing well. I wish you the best pappy, your gonna get this just hang in there.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> trimmed--- This is not a fight bro, it is an exchange of ideas which is both healthy and encouraged.



oh no, not again, shoot.... Kraven, I'm a kidder, life mostly sucks so I'm always cracking wise.... can't help it, live to laugh 
I won't fight, I just have a strange sense of humour.

I'm embarrassed you put this much work in to your responses, I'm going to restart both systems as you suggest. Don't feel you have to help out here, seems pretty one-sided to me right now.

I'm off to the coalmine with a copy of your restart post and will henceforth just report readings and what I'm doing. No more questions... Comment if you can but beggars can't be choosers here and I can't share my harvest (not enough hahahaha)


----------



## SquidyPacheco

:48:


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> run pure water for a day
> >>> tap water, pH to 5.6 and mine is about 90 ppm here
> 
> then go back at 250ppm 5.6 pH
> top off with pH'ed water as the pH rises to 6.2
> (this should take 3-4 days)
> pH to slowly rise as the ppm slowly goes down
> 
> 7 days you empty the system, clean the res
> reset (ahah!) the res @ 5.6 and a ppm of 250
> 
> if the ppm goes down fast but the pH does not rise, or goes down
> then you need to up the ppm by 100
> >>> I increase by adding nutes for 350 ppm
> 
> if the pH falls and the ppm rises you have the ppms too high.
> DO NOT allow rapid pH swings
> 
> ppm is not the big issue in veg it is pH
> 
> 
> 
> Snipped absolute GOLD here but it's in his post up there.
> :goodposting:
> 
> ...if you go too heavy the damage happens really fast, and cannot be undone.
> >>>DAMN!
> 
> ...hence I will never run another DWC, it's just too much of a hassle.
> >>> it sure LOOKED easy
> 
> I'll be moving to and ebb/flow table and be in coco chunk
> >>> rinse, rinse and rinse again



I reduced the post to point form so I could confirm I was understanding okay
and I did the >>> thing up there


----------



## sopappy

SquidyPacheco said:


> :48:



Dammit, how did you know I was out? 
Thanks, man, I didn't sleep a wink last night!
:smoke1:


----------



## sopappy

Damn it, Kraven, yer a guru! I had a look at the roots, you nailed it!
.... the two oldsters are write-offs, no roots at all in one bucket and not-so-white in the other... I can't give up though...I am flushing them both now... 5.6, 70 ppm

I have to wait for water to get at the two youngsters but you called it, their tap root look pretty damn nice to me  

View attachment roots.JPG


View attachment moreroots.JPG


View attachment youngroot1.JPG


View attachment youngroot2.JPG


----------



## sopappy

About that oxygen and high temps....
look at the bubbles here, do I really have to worry about oxygen? 

View attachment bubbles.JPG


View attachment bubbles2.JPG


----------



## Kraven

Temp directly controls how much oxygen water will absorb, the lower the temp the higher the O2 content, it's great you got good bubbles, but the temp has to go down so there is more room for the oxygen. Work with what you have pappy, just hang in there, like I said before your gonna get it


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Temp directly controls how much oxygen water will absorb, the lower the temp the higher the O2 content, it's great you got good bubbles, but the temp has to go down so there is more room for the oxygen. Work with what you have pappy, just hang in there, like I said before your gonna get it



For the love of Pete!
'more "room" for the oxygen?????
So I give them all this oxygen but they can't absorb it all if temps are off.
JEZUS KEERIST! sounds like pH and nutes!!!
cart, horse, horse, cart, how the phuk do you guys grow anything?
I'm a digital, on/off kinda guy, this analogue relationship stuff is going to kill me.
okay, okay, I'll work on the temps!
THG, can I use that wort chiller?

:hairpull:


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

sopappy said:


> Kraven! Our first fight!
> 65 - 68 for res temp?
> I say that's too cool for roots... I shoot for 68 - 72
> Is there a difference between soil and water for root temps?
> Don't tell me 68 - 72 is for dirt and 65 - 68 is for water???



My res stays between 65° - 75° when I did DWC. In the winter, they get as low as 55°... bit cold but not bad for hydro. Too cold for soilless... ODD huh? lol. 



sopappy said:


> My nutes label sez NOT to store the product (in a plastic jug) on concrete floors. Anybody know what that's all about?
> Does that mean I shouldn't have my buckets directly on concrete as well?



I think concrete reacts with metals or something silly.. same idea of "don't place a battery on a concrete floor". I would buy some ridged styrofoam insulation to cut and put under your buckets :aok: 



sopappy said:


> numbers this morning
> 5.8 / 330   for the 2 bigger ones
> 5.8 / 290   for the 2 smaller ones
> I added pH'd 5.7 water last night but these ppms are still high compared to your suggestions.
> Should I mix up a fresh batch for both?



...I say those number are phenomenal. No issue there. What nutrient are you using? (sorry if you've said) If you're in 5 gal DWC, you want to go 7 days and change out.. that's your goal at least. (I loathe 5 gal DWC... too little solution) 



sopappy said:


> About that oxygen and high temps....
> look at the bubbles here, do I really have to worry about oxygen?



If you keep within temps (60° lowest to 78° HIGHEST.. 75° IMO) then you should be just fine with oxygen. Very nice bubbles Sopappy! 



sopappy said:


> For the love of Pete!
> 'more "room" for the oxygen?????
> So I give them all this oxygen but they can't absorb it all if temps are off.
> JEZUS KEERIST! sounds like pH and nutes!!!
> cart, horse, horse, cart, how the phuk do you guys grow anything?
> I'm a digital, on/off kinda guy, this analogue relationship stuff is going to kill me.
> okay, okay, I'll work on the temps!
> THG, can I use that wort chiller?
> 
> :hairpull:



Annnnnd there's the slight frustration. Sorry to say, it's refreshing to see SOMEONE else with it for once HAH. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing with you. You know, if you ever have questions feel free to PM me. I get lost with how many things I've replied to and what I follow... 

Temps: 60° - 78(5)°
PH: 5.7 - 6.3 .. you want to float low to high. If you float high to low, you're over fed, low to high TOO fast and you're under fed. That's a general rule of thumb, unless other factors are adjusting your PH. 

^ Keep those things in check.and you're good. Also, having super strong roots before going into hydroton is ALSO a must in my humble opinion.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> My res stays between 65° - 75° when I did  DWC. In the winter, they get as low as 55°... bit cold but not bad for  hydro. Too cold for soilless... ODD huh? lol.
> 
> I think concrete reacts with metals or something silly.. same idea of  "don't place a battery on a concrete floor". I would buy some ridged  styrofoam insulation to cut and put under your buckets :aok:
> 
> >>>  phuuuuuuuuuuk, ya, I wrapped rigid foam in panda paper and was happy  doing that over winter but my res temps are too high now (spring/summer)  so I removed them in desperation and it worked, temps are about 2  degrees lower sitting on the cold slab. But I hear ya, I'll put the foam  piece back when i get the wort chiller
> dammit, where's THG?
> (under a kitchen sink somewhere swearing no doubt)
> If I use the wort chiller, I can put the foam back.
> 
> ...I say those number are phenomenal.
> 
> >>>whaaaaaaa? Not  for the two bigger plants, one has roots that look awful and the other  has no roots at all, check pictures here somewheres.
> But the two  younger ones are looking very good but I'm still doing a res change on  both, I'm still struggling with this pH / ppm thing. I just don't  understand how you can give too much ppm, I mean, who cares, stick a  full plate of spaghetti in front of me and I'd just eat my fill and  leave the rest, why does MJ struggle with that?
> 
> No issue there. What nutrient are you using? (sorry if you've said)
> 
> >>> Growing Edge Technologies
> http://www.growingedgetechnologies.ca/
> 
> If  you're in 5 gal DWC, you want to go 7 days and change out.. that's your  goal at least. (I loathe 5 gal DWC... too little solution)
> 
> >>> I have a two bucket w/res and a three bucket with res
> (Sorry about the litres thing, a litre is about a quart)
> 3 bucket uses about 45 L, 2 bucket about 30L
> 
> If  you keep within temps (60° lowest to 78° HIGHEST.. 75° IMO) then you  should be just fine with oxygen. Very nice bubbles Sopappy!
> 
> >>> those are air domes from the aeropot systems. They use  perforated tubing instead of stones. You must silicone connections  though or they suck)
> Kraven showed me which motor to use, noisy bastid but works well and powers 5 buckets EASILY
> 
> Annnnnd there's the slight frustration. Sorry to say, it's refreshing to  see SOMEONE else with it for once HAH. I'm not laughing at you, I'm  laughing with you.
> 
> >>> I have NO problem being laughed at or with, just as long as you're laughing
> 
> You know, if you ever have questions feel free to PM me. I get lost with how many things I've replied to and what I follow...
> 
> >>>  I don't want to be a pest here. I appreciate your comments and hope you  stop by to keep an eye on me but I'm reluctant to pester folks with pms
> 
> Temps: 60° - 78(5)°
> 
> >>>  I make a distinction betwixt above ground and below ground and I've  already mixed it up with Kraven.... his numbers are lower for roots
> I sez....  ambient    18 - 24 C
> roots       20 - 22 C
> 
> oh ****, amuricans hahaha    ambiant 65 - 75 F
> roots   68 - 72 F
> 
> PH:  5.7 - 6.3 .. you want to float low to high. If you float high to low,  you're over fed, low to high TOO fast and you're under fed. That's a  general rule of thumb, unless other factors are adjusting your PH.
> 
> >>> I gotta make a cheat sheet, damn, that is hard to keep straight
> 
> ^ Keep those things in check.and you're good. Also, having super strong  roots before going into hydroton is ALSO a must in my humble opinion.
> 
> >>> do ya think I should give up on the two older ones? one has ugly roots and the other no roots at all



see >>> above for my responses
thanks for sharing, Doc, much appreciated
(man, I love this place


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

> whaaaaaaa? Not for the two bigger plants, one has roots that look awful and the other has no roots at all, check pictures here somewheres.



Your PH and PPM's seemed great for the size of the plant... I dunno. What do I know right?  :rofl: 



> Growing Edge Technologies



Erm, what? Never heard of em... I would get a nutrient that's tried and true. There's quite a few decent ones. 



> Temps: 60° - 78(5)°



This is ROOT zone temps. Ambient I like to keep between 65° - 85° and RH around 35% - 55% :aok: 



> >>> I gotta make a cheat sheet, damn, that is hard to keep straight



Get to it! And fricken PM me ... have you PM'd THG? I imagine she won't just randomly show up, if her schedule is anything like mine.   PM's are pestering when you require an answer and need someone with proper knowledge. It's not like you're being an arsehole. Or an ASKHOLE!! One who asks and doesn't take the advice lol. 

Give up? That's up to you. I would love to see you start with some adjustments that I suggest, but that's also purely up to you. I was helping Schoolboy along and I think he was doing pretty good  

So hey, as for the food comment you made. That's generally a good idea for HPS, as in the past I ran super high PPM's and it wasn't too bad, but either way you DO have to ramp up from smaller amounts to more. You can burn the little roots and smaller plants with toxic high amounts of food.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Ok, you're LED then yes? I think I see the light and  stuff... ok.. let me drill that into my brain. Alright I just read back a couple pages but I skimmed. Ok, LED's actually FEED a plant... you need to keep this in mind. LED's also majorly affect the way a plant eats!! I learned this the hard way recently, so if I can spare you, so be it! Let's put it this way. My end flowering PPM's are now 550 - 800 NEVER over that! The plants can't handle it with LED's.. strains I've run many times, at 1250 - 1400 PPM's easy, can't stand it over around 600 - 700 or so. It's hilarious, but I learned the hard way. 

The direction your res ramps and the PPM's will always tell the tale. You're going to learn, definitely.  

If you start again, I'll walk you through it if you'd like.. it's up to you really.  I'm here either way.


----------



## Kraven

Pappy it looks like Doc is here, no need for me to come back, he has the hydro experience. GL and green mojo.


----------



## Rosebud

Sopappy, you are a kick in the patoot.   I don't do water, i am a dirt farmer, but i wanted to step in and say hi and glad you are here.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy it looks like Doc is here, no need for me  to come back, he has the hydro experience. GL and green mojo.



No way, man. You stick around or I'm filing a complaint! 
But yes indeed, I was hoping that Fang lad would come back...
He's using LEDs and also insists PM is okay if not abused so I'll PM you if I really need to bug you.
Don't forget, I still have those girls in the flower room in soil!!!

I'll  be PMing THG 'cause I want to use those wort chillers and she may have  more to say about buckets on concrete too.... I think Fang is right re  it being a metal thing but a 2nd opinion always helps.

I really  don't expect anybody to help. It's nice when it happens but I'm just  going to post my numbers and pictures and what I'm doing. Knowing this  place, somebody will spot a dumb move and bail me out!

So, I know yer busy but check my numbers when they go by and jump in any time. I want to be dialed in, don't leave now


----------



## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> Sopappy, you are a kick in the patoot.   I don't do water, i am a dirt farmer, but i wanted to step in and say hi and glad you are here.



Rose, I just noticed in another thread you are using LEDs. Don't go away 
And I also have girls in soil in the flower chamber, also under a LED
Oh, and by the way.... I almost took a swig of Thrive myself and laughed out loud when I realised just how easily it could happen (and I thought you were depressed hahaha)

Do you prefer PMs or can I bug you here?
What's the closest you'd ever put a LED to the canopy?
Fang?


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

LED to the canopy is subjective. Not closer than 12 inches but preperably between 18 inches and 24 inches. Sorry I'm at work and can not add much yet


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Ok, you're LED then yes? I think I see the light and  stuff... ok.. let me drill that into my brain. Alright I just read back a couple pages but I skimmed. Ok, LED's actually FEED a plant... you need to keep this in mind. LED's also majorly affect the way a plant eats!! I learned this the hard way recently, so if I can spare you, so be it! Let's put it this way. My end flowering PPM's are now 550 - 800 NEVER over that! The plants can't handle it with LED's.. strains I've run many times, at 1250 - 1400 PPM's easy, can't stand it over around 600 - 700 or so. It's hilarious, but I learned the hard way.
> 
> The direction your res ramps and the PPM's will always tell the tale. You're going to learn, definitely.
> 
> If you start again, I'll walk you through it if you'd like.. it's up to you really.  I'm here either way.



I have two LEDs, one in flower, one in veg
actual draw... 320W and 175W
two bucket systems, each with a res..... one is 3 buckets and res, other is 2 buckets and res
WoW, 800 max ppm in flower ?!?! I'm glad you posted, thanks. And I read that LEDs feed in one of Jammer's posts too, sometimes I think it just takes 2 or 3 tries before it sinks in. :-(

I'm not giving up yet but may take you up on your offer, I take notes.
I'll PM my numbers if something wonky (or you'll see them here)
I have to master that ramp thing.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> LED to the canopy is subjective. Not closer than 12 inches but preperably between 18 inches and 24 inches. Sorry I'm at work and can not add much yet



Don't do that, it's not worth the risk.
I'm always pleasantly surprised when I get help, don't feel obligated!


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Yeah, and 800 is the HIGH side my friend. 550-600 was what I did for my last run, and I'm working on "pushing the envelope" so that I can see where my threshold is. Currently, I'm doing 800 PPM's in my Ebb and Flo system. It's higher than I wanted, AND it's for stuff vegging, but it's working currently. I'll start doing water only add backs.. get the PPM's down, then throttle back as I go further into veg and prep for flowering. Not going to go much over 800 at flowering, so will ease back for a bit. 

...annnnnd I rambled lol.  

Also....Risk? Pff, I'm self employed HAH!  I just saw a reply in here and wanted to say something, but couldn't say all what I wanted. So I'll reiterate on that a tad. It's GOOD to go by what the manufacturer of your light says for veg and flower distance. Generally, they are actually spot on. But, I've found, that the weaker lights (mine and through research) tend to allow you to get a bit closer with them. Whether it's good for the spectrum or not, I don't know. I know it's ALL about spectrum. There's a big distance for a special reason. With that said, I majorly ran out of head room in my last run and my stuff got to within' 10" from the light. 0 bleaching or burning, but definitely affected the plant different towards the tops where the spectrum wasn't "correct". They foxtailed at the top, but about 15" down they were fine.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Yeah, and 800 is the HIGH side my friend. 550-600 was what I did for my last run, and I'm working on "pushing the envelope" so that I can see where my threshold is. Currently, I'm doing 800 PPM's in my Ebb and Flo system. It's higher than I wanted, AND it's for stuff vegging, but it's working currently. I'll start doing water only add backs.. get the PPM's down, then throttle back as I go further into veg and prep for flowering. Not going to go much over 800 at flowering, so will ease back for a bit.
> 
> ...annnnnd I rambled lol.
> 
> Also....Risk? Pff, I'm self employed HAH!  I just saw a reply in here and wanted to say something, but couldn't say all what I wanted. So I'll reiterate on that a tad. It's GOOD to go by what the manufacturer of your light says for veg and flower distance. Generally, they are actually spot on. But, I've found, that the weaker lights (mine and through research) tend to allow you to get a bit closer with them. Whether it's good for the spectrum or not, I don't know. I know it's ALL about spectrum. There's a big distance for a special reason. With that said, I majorly ran out of head room in my last run and my stuff got to within' 10" from the light. 0 bleaching or burning, but definitely affected the plant different towards the tops where the spectrum wasn't "correct". They foxtailed at the top, but about 15" down they were fine.




Ramble on!  I've read that ramp thing from 3 or 4 different posters and about 20 times and I get it a bit more each time. It's all very logical except the part about worrying about too high ppms....
why the heck does the plant care how big a plate of spaghetti you put in front of it? If I saw a big plate, I wouldn't NOT eat and start drinking instead. ??? why don't they just eat their fill and then have a drink.

I saw those foxtails on a plant from bag seed once and thought it was just a peculiar strain. I can't say why exactly but I find it ugly and repulsive but I could not tell you why. (a fascinating plant indeed)

Self-employed, haha, I should have deduced that. Me too. Makes it awfully tough to avoid the wake & bake when I have a paperwork day 
I always regret wake & bakes, I drag my butt for the rest of the day, then again, I'm 60 years old, normal days ain't all that different hahaha

As usual, thanks for the comments!


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

> why the heck does the plant care how big a plate of spaghetti you put in front of it?



Here's a better idea for now. Don't ask why, just know that it is so. You need to learn with an open mind. Still water, so that the ripples have a groove... a rhythm... 

You see, I did the EXACT same thing. I call it the "Kitty Method". It's like a cat dish.. you put loads of food down, and it will eat when it wants. It will take some and leave it there etc. When I was doing HPS and Under Current Hydro this "theory" worked well enough... but even then it wasn't correct, I just didn't realize it. Well, with LED's, you REALLY have to adhere to some of these things!!! Half the PPM's or you get toxicity and your PH will friggin flip out! I learned this the hard way, and PJ was able to show me the "I told you so's" many times along the route. I figured "I've run these strains so much, I know them and will try under LED my way" There was 3 things he said, and the PPM's part was one of them. I messed up with ALL 3 and am trying to save you the headaches. One thing you already solved, you trimmed your under skirts up well.. so good there. Know that the PPM's can not go high! *The LED's feed the plant* Drill this into your brain, as I had to learn! They really do actively "feed" the plant, so your PPM's are half right off because of that. 

To address that one more time quickly; They DO eat and drink at their will.. but you have to keep parameters right. Think of them as really fickle / jaded individuals. Very picky ladies. You treat em right, and they are going to rock your world!  
Your PH will slowly rise from 5.8 - 6.3 (My numbers..some do 5.7 - 6.2 etc) over time .. hopefully over a longer period of time. If PH is going up slowly then you're riding the wave (ramping) properly. If, say, you've done a new res, and in 48 hours time it's dipping drastically from 5.8 down to 5.3 then your PPM's are too high (or at least this is what PJ mentioned and I've been following. Seems right) If they are going from 5.8 to 6.5 in 24-36 hours or so, then there's not enough food and they are eating massively. The faster the ramp up the more they are eating. If they dip down randomly, bump them up one day and see what happens. Any issues, dump your res and start over. 

Yeah, I don't prefer Foxtailing either. But it doesn't bother me as much as it did in the first year. 

Also, why avoid a wake and bake? Doctors told me I had ADHD when I was young and fed me ritalin until I was in high school... then, I learned about MJ and stopped myself from the man made med's. MJ allows me to work better, and zone in. It slows my processes down, but since my processes are SO far ahead in my mind, the slowing is very good for me! I'm 33 this month, so maybe this will change... but I believe it will not change much, as long as I pay attention to strain and trichome colors hah.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Here's a better idea for now.
> >>> snipped and taped to my forehead
> 
> Also, why avoid a wake and bake?
> 
> >>> Man, I love it, it would start each day great !!!
> BUT, 2 reasons
> I have that great half hour and then the paranoia (I recently read that this comes from inadequate curing) and drag *** kicks in and it makes me sluggish all day
> (Sativas are hard to come by, Indica everywhere, I hate the couch lock)
> 
> Doctors told me I had ADHD when I was young and fed me ritalin until I was in high school...
> 
> >>> that sounds like my son's story. I think it's teachers that can't handle boys, not the doctors or ADHD. I swear they make this stuff up. They used to call it "high-strung" in my day and let boys be boys. We used to play ball hockey at recesss for pete's sake, burned off the boy stuff. All the female teachers now, THAT is the problem!
> 
> then, I learned about MJ and stopped myself from the man made med's. MJ allows me to work better
> 
> >>> Just in time! Congrats! my son starts every day that way, no pills, and doesn't have my issues at all.
> 
> as long as I pay attention to strain and trichome colors hah.
> 
> >>>well, you lost me there but that's for another day, I'm busy drilling your post in to my head next couple o' days!
> Excellent post, thank you for that!



>>> me up there


----------



## Rosebud

I am reading... it is fun in here.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Trichome colors and affects of them and Sativas Vs Indicas. That's what you need to be checking in on right now. You don't get paranoia or "drag ***" from a heavy Sativa with all Cloudy Trichs... hahahaha  You get stuff done!


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

Oh, sopappy, we need to get you into some good sativas.  Nothing like a great sativa to kick start you in the mornings.  Never heard of incorrect cure causing paranoia...have to check it out.  I had always thought it was inexperienced smokers and too strong sativas...Mandala actually warns about that in their Satori description: "Recommended for experienced smokers and if you have a high THC tolerance. Persons not used to highly psychoactive sativas should be cautious with the dosage."

I will be setting up an LED grow here.  I bought a 3 x 5 tent that arrived yesterday and after much discussion, I am going to borrow a light from someone to get me started--we decided to try this first.  But, I will also need to pick up something else to go in the space as the one is not enough.  I am going to be using an Apollo Purple Sun 768 W and am thinking of getting a Mars II to go with it--might be fun to compare the cob against the not cob.  Some of the plants will be run in organic soil and some hydro, probably DWC, but I may do an flood and drain.  Although I have been growing forever, this is a new game and I am still learning the rules.  Trying to absorb all the knowledge I can, so while I really have little advise, I am looking forward to learning all I can.


----------



## Grower13

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Oh, sopappy, we need to get you into some good sativas. Nothing like a great sativa to kick start you in the mornings. Never heard of incorrect cure causing paranoia...have to check it out. I had always thought it was inexperienced smokers and too strong sativas...Mandala actually warns about that in their Satori description: "Recommended for experienced smokers and if you have a high THC tolerance. Persons not used to highly psychoactive sativas should be cautious with the dosage."
> 
> I will be setting up an LED grow here. I bought a 3 x 5 tent that arrived yesterday and after much discussion, I am going to borrow a light from someone to get me started--we decided to try this first. But, I will also need to pick up something else to go in the space as the one is not enough. I am going to be using an Apollo Purple Sun 768 W and am thinking of getting a Mars II to go with it--might be fun to compare the cob against the not cob. Some of the plants will be run in organic soil and some hydro, probably DWC, but I may do an flood and drain. Although I have been growing forever, this is a new game and I am still learning the rules. Trying to absorb all the knowledge I can, so while I really have little advise, I am looking forward to learning all I can.


 
I was in the local wally world  a week or so ago.............. I was looking at the new 4D TV's........  . not long after toking a tater of some satori........ had me a few moments of... WOW I'M SO STONED........ totally overwhelmed by the high for a couple mins........ I think it was only a couple of mins anyway....... hey at least I didn't wreck my bike......:doh:


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

> Although I have been growing forever, this is a new game and I am still learning the rules



I'm so excited for this ol' dog to learn some new tricks. It's nice to see that THG


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

I'll never give up learning new stuff!  It is part of what makes life fun and exciting.  Not just gardening stuff, but everything.  I am going to be making a butcher block table top for an island here soon--from wood from a tree on my property that we cut down about 18months ago.  So cool to be able to make something like that with wood from your property.  And the LEDs and the new way of growing with them is another adventure.

I think I am going to give AN's pH Perfect a go and see if it is.  I am getting to the end of my gallons of GH Flora series.  If I find the pH perfect is not, I will go with Jungle Juice and continue to pH.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Trichome colors and affects of them and Sativas Vs Indicas. That's what you need to be checking in on right now. You don't get paranoia or "drag ***" from a heavy Sativa with all Cloudy Trichs... hahahaha  You get stuff done!



ah, the nuances of when to harvest, I do remember reading about cloudy for a more cerebral high. I always pulled at the first sign of amber... I'm thinking that was too late. Indicas are shorter and easier to grow too.
If I can master this ramp stuff, I'm trying Sativas again.

I have the survivors in flower right now, week 3, they look surprisingly good. So, this time, I'll try to pull before I see amber.


----------



## sopappy

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Oh, sopappy, we need to get you into some  good sativas.  Nothing like a great sativa to kick start you in the  mornings.
> 
> >>> Oh, I know it's the Sativa I want, I  just don't think I can grow them. The one time I tried, the thing took  off, I thought I'd be able climb it and slay a giant. But I wasn't brave  enough to do any training back then. Next time
> 
> Never heard of incorrect cure causing paranoia...have to check it out.
> 
> >>> I just read that this week but failed to note the source. I'm drowning in notes,
> 
> I  had always thought it was inexperienced smokers and too strong  sativas...Mandala actually warns about that in their Satori description:  "Recommended for experienced smokers
> 
> >>> check
> 
> and if you have a high THC tolerance.
> 
> >>> check
> 
> Persons not used to highly psychoactive sativas should be cautious with the dosage."
> 
> >>> doesn't scare me, I was hippie.
> 
> I will be setting up an LED grow here.  I bought a 3 x 5 tent that  arrived yesterday and after much discussion, I am going to borrow a  light from someone to get me started--we decided to try this first.   But, I will also need to pick up something else to go in the space as  the one is not enough.  I am going to be using an Apollo Purple Sun 768 W  and am thinking of getting a Mars II to go with it--might be fun to  compare the cob against the not cob.
> 
> >>> cob ?
> >>> 768 watt? holy crap,wow! actual draw? That's a monster. I've read more smaller ones are better than one big one. P Jammer I think.
> 
> Some  of the plants will be run in organic soil and some hydro, probably DWC,  but I may do an flood and drain.  Although I have been growing forever,  this is a new game and I am still learning the rules.  Trying to absorb  all the knowledge I can, so while I really have little advise, I am  looking forward to learning all I can.
> 
> >>> Doc and Kraven are holding my hand here and I am making some serious progress and gaining confidence daily. My two biggest gaffs...
> 
> LEDS FEED PLANTS, (halve your ppms)
> BUBBLE  THE BUCKETS (I wasn't even going to do that, just a drip but when I saw  that motor Kraven picked up, something clicked



Hey THC,  thanks for the rubber mat tip. It will also help with the  slippery floors... the one thing I'm starting to hate about DWC... water  and electricty scare me. I'm constantly wiping up spills or even  slipping. I don't like losing my footing in there!

tents... ya...  I sure put a lot of work in to building two rooms when I didn't have to  build anything! I thought they were more expensive than they are, seems  to me they are well worth it but I made my bed...

please see >>> up there for more babbling


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> I'm so excited for this ol' dog to learn some new tricks. It's nice to see that THG



Omigawd, Doc, did you just call THG an old dog?


----------



## sopappy

Grower13 said:


> I was in the local wally world  a week or so ago.............. I was looking at the new 4D TV's........  . not long after toking a tater of some satori........ had me a few moments of... WOW I'M SO STONED........ totally overwhelmed by the high for a couple mins........ I think it was only a couple of mins anyway....... hey at least I didn't wreck my bike......:doh:



BWAHAHAHAHAHA, thanks for that. 
Now, tell us about the time you wrecked your bike.


----------



## Rosebud

sopappy said:


> Omigawd, Doc, did you just call THG an old dog?




Oh man, i sure hope not.!


----------



## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> Oh man, i sure hope not.!



I always shoot my mouth off and think later. I shouldn't have posted that; I thought it'd be a chuckle but it's just awkward. My apologies, Doc and THG, I was trying to be funny, it doesn't always work.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

sopappy said:


> I was trying to be funny, it doesn't always work.



I saw the humor in it, so nothing to be worried about. 

THG knew how I ment it


----------



## sopappy

Great! Thanks, Doc, I mean well, simply misguided, here's another tasteless post!

Rememeber the father in that classic "A Christmas Story" trying to fix the furnace in the basement? Well, that was me this morning...
I discovered pH was a scary 5.5 in the soil so I took some unpH'd city water sitting at 8.6 and started flushing. I figured a gallon would be plenty, 2 L pots.
I take a reading of the run-off.... wait for it
5.5


There coming to take me away ha ha ho ho hee hee to the funny farm where life is alway...
(if that draws a blank, it's here, takes awhile before the song starts)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBfxl_T6ldg&list=RDkBfxl_T6ldg#t=65


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

WHOA... flushed with super super high PH water..........and still 5.5? I hate soil. And I hate the word "hate", so that'll tell you something.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Sopappy.. that video was demented HAH!


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Sopappy.. that video was demented HAH!



Ya, guilteee
As a kid when it came out, I thought it was hilarious and loved the guy's voice freaking out as the song progressed.
But it was very controversial and the short school bus crowd were not amused at all. I think it was even banned for awhile. I don't think you'd hear it anywhere today except the internet. 
Pretty rude hahahaha


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> WHOA... flushed with super super high PH  water..........and still 5.5? I hate soil. And I hate the word "hate",  so that'll tell you something.



Hey Doc
I really shouldn't be doing this, I don't think I'm cut  out for it. Farmers are a different breed. I'm not a farmer, I'm just a  father what wants to be sure his kids get clean pot. That, and I'm cheap  and have NEVER had a hobby that didn't have the potential for coin.

To quote the limp blimp, nobody's fault but mine
I'm using old soil that I probably should have discarded. 
These  are the survivors from those ugly baby pictures and that bunch has been  to hell and back, I can't believe they're still alive and they look  pretty good too.

3 of them, the pH wasn't rising, in fact, it dropped a bit !!!
the  4th one showed an increase and I calmed down, I guess just more, more ,  more but then the light went at 0700 and I had to leave...

Weehoo, Saturday night with my girls in the bathtub, I can hardly wait.
Hope my delivery makes it today....
finally got some sleep last night, first 2 nights were brutal and the nausea is just starting to fade today. Appetite is gone! And I'll need Cialis if I get lucky.... woe is me 

Don't  let anyone tell you this stuff in non-addictive and harmless. It is  not. It is one clever plant (see my sig, not my quote, don't know who,  but I like it) I like to flush myself a couple times a year and it  amazes me how brutal the withdrawal can be. 

Not preaching here,  just sharing... Us 60+ folks are the marijuana guinea pigs. It's still  not as bad as a hangover though and I've never come to in an emergency  room after smoking pot!

But if you've been "daily" for years, you really should try a flush and show these beaches who's boss 

Man, I wish I was stoned....

Are there still droughts these days, I remember times you simply could not get it... there was even an expression if memory serves...
"Dope will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no dope"


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

I did a "flush" last year for the first time in 15 years or so. I went 10 days, and some was tough some was not. I need it for meds though, and if I "need it" then I NEED IT and forget about flushing any systems hahah


----------



## sopappy

I didn't mean that to come off as preaching. I was just more surprised it was so tough this time, thought I'd share with the researchers 
I think I actually got a bit of a ramp going here.


----------



## sopappy

I'm being punished. 4 of them in buckets, roots started to show but only one bucket seems to be growing. Here are 3 pictures of that same plant. Sure is discouraging. It's just one battle after another. Water temp is not ideal but does not exceed 72.
All kinds of oxygen in there, in fact, I think the bubbles were too hard on the new roots if that's possible. 

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----------



## Kraven

Pappy I think you might have pythium, pic far right looks like it for sure and the middle one sure could be too. Generally when the tap root hits the water, you stop the top drip so that all your roots will search for the soup. IMHO it looks like you have pythium and my guess is its all in the hydroton where most of the roots seem to be. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy I think you might have pythium, pic far right looks like it for sure and the middle one sure could be too. Generally when the tap root hits the water, you stop the top drip so that all your roots will search for the soup. IMHO it looks like you have pythium and my guess is its all in the hydroton where most of the roots seem to be. Just my 2 cents.



Damn. I didn't stop the top drip... I thought that was required for the recirculating, d'oh. I'm assuming I still want the re-circulating and will simply drop the drip hose in to the res.
Thanks for that, K-man, I'll research the disease :-(
 update
fa kin supa, it's like Herpes, never goes away, I could puke Another torture session, pulled her out of the hydroton and did 10% h2o2 wash, pulled off the crap, 3 tough looking 2 - 3 inch long whitish roots left now. I just buried the plug again and soaked the area once. I'll hope the roots make it down to the water soon enough, there's no drip, the hose just goes down through the pellets and in to the drink. The water level is perhaps 1.5 inches below pots, all 4 of them. No roots showing anywhere now :-(


----------



## Kraven

Pappy you gotta be kind to the roots bro, if there are no roots in your solution you need to start the drip ring back till they hit the water, if not they will dry out and die very quickly. Keep plugin along man, your gonna get it and you will have good advise to give others soon enough bro, green mojo.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy you gotta be kind to the roots bro, if there are no roots in your solution you need to start the drip ring back till they hit the water, if not they will dry out and die very quickly. Keep plugin along man, your gonna get it and you will have good advise to give others soon enough bro, green mojo.



 hahaha.... fair warning to all! Do NOT take advice from me.
 Mr K....  4 buckets, Now, after clean-up, NONE of them have roots out the bottom. (One was moving right along but got sick with that python thing) I washed off the crap as best i could (10% H2O2) and rinsed the pellets. If I see any roots that poke out brown again, I'll move all 4 to dirt  and clean the systems with bleach before trying DWC again.  On the bright side, flower room smells pretty good these days  And thanks for keeping an eye on things here!


----------



## Kraven

Thats the spirit pappy, your learning and that's great. This will all click for you soon and then you will be growing some phenomenal grows. Glad the flower room is coming along, the girls look happy bro


----------



## sopappy

I was going to wait until I saw roots again before doing anything drastic but I'm thinking I should salvage what I have, move these 4 to soil and bleach everything. The more I read about that pythmeoffium, I worry about it getting a hold in the room, spores and ****, I figure I'll never be rid of it.

On the bright side, these are the write-offs from the coco disaster. That's not too bad for beginning week 5, well, for me anyways. 

View attachment 100_0835.JPG


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## Kraven

Nice Pappy, they are stacking well, keep cookin bro


----------



## Bongofury

I'm a week and a half behind your grow Sopappy. I hope mine look that good. green mojo


----------



## Grower13

Bongofury said:


> I'm a week and a half behind your grow Sopappy. I hope mine look that good. green mojo


 

he's a good 18 days ahead of everybody...........:doh::48:


nice grow sopappy


----------



## sopappy

Thanks for the kind words, gents! That camera flash is misleading though, the hairs aren't that thick, a lot of that is light. But still amazing after all the shocking they've had. All fem, two of them still went male. I'm still thinking potency will be poor and I don't see much sugary goodness I'm afraid but it was still fun seeing those posts!

I'm soaking the pellets in H202 3ml/gal and will run 10% bleach through the buckets for few hours before a good rinse. Damn chlorine stinks, not looking forward to that. 

What else do I want at the grow shop? Botanicare Hydroguard Bacillus Root Inoculant
I also wrote down MycoGrow soluble but can't recall why. Damn, gotta stop studying stoned; it does not work.

I have a seed in rooter on top of my modem, guess I'll put my last 4 up there with her and try again.


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## sopappy

Say hello to my little frien... any harm in leaving her in the sun in the window sill like that? 

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## Dr. Green Fang

Yes, lots of harm IMO.. that plug will dry out in hours.. you'll have to baby sit it all day. 

At least, that's my thoughts. Maybe wrap it in something that's a bit moist? I'm clueless about Rapid Rooters out in the open like that, but my own experience is that they dry out SUPER fast, even in a domed tray!


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Yes, lots of harm IMO.. that plug will dry out in hours.. you'll have to baby sit it all day.
> 
> At least, that's my thoughts. Maybe wrap it in something that's a bit moist? I'm clueless about Rapid Rooters out in the open like that, but my own experience is that they dry out SUPER fast, even in a domed tray!



 Yup, thanks, Doc. Kinda dumb, the sun just looked so inviting. I'd forget and it'd dry out fer sure. She's back down under the LED about 30 inches away


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## sopappy

Looks like I'll only be keeping 1 of the 4 (that I tried in the buckets). I just can't seem to shake the soil. <br/>
I now have two of the sprouts in the buckets but res is empty. That tube is not a drip, it sticks out about 1/4" below net pot. I'll keep water level maybe an inch below that. I am top watering until I see a root poking out the bottom of the net pot, then I'll fill 'er up and turn on the pumps.<br/>
I don't think I'll buy these FEM seeds any more. They come up so frail looking. 

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## sopappy

This plant doesn't go down without a fight. I was positive that latest seedling was dead and I'm amazed those plants bounced back from the pythium.<br />
I may have been hallucinating but I'm sure I saw a little root sticking out the bottom of a pot so I set up the water, city water, 70 ppm but I added something called powerclean. No bubblers yet, top watering and the hose goes down to bottom of pellets, 1 1/2 inches above water level for some agitation. 

View attachment 100_0861.JPG


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## Kraven

It looks like someone chopped the girls, green mojo bro your gonna get this.


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> It looks like someone chopped the girls, green mojo bro your gonna get this.



 meagre harvest but I'm used to those, only way to go is up


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## sopappy

Hey THG, Kraven...  I moved the Pythmeoffium survivors to under the T5. The temperature at the canopy is 75 and there's an oscillating fan going or it'd be higher  <br />
I took this picture after moving them from the LED. What I think will happen is that you'll see all those FLAT leaves strain up towards the light. <br />

 Here's a snap from 24 hours later. Maybe it's me but they sure look like they're starting the oliver twist thing.

okay, another couple days, and I'm still seeing this 'reach' thing and no comments from either of you. Do I win?
If I put the LED back and the plant relaxes like us on a patio, what's the prize?  
last pic shows they are relaxing again but look how far I have to keep them from the light for 75 at the canopy.
 I need the T5, haircuts today. I put them back under the LEDs, almost as warm as T5 (at 18") under there (at recommended distance). Double the stretch under T5. 

View attachment 100_0869.JPG


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> It looks like someone chopped the girls, green mojo bro your gonna get this.



 Yup, it's like everything else, you just keep plugging away, fake it 'til you make it. I got my Boveda thingies.... man I hope they work, it sounds fantastic. My girls were all soaken wet so I didn't use them right off and still had to go a day or so in the caserole dishes but no more burping, or forgetting to burp, or forgetting to close the lid after a looooong burp hahahahah, the things will be great for the stash too, no more pieces of fruit, gotta love this place for TIPS like that!


----------



## sopappy

My EIGHT plant harvest is coming in at a whopping FOUR OUNCES. Worse than I thought but not by much hahaha. There's guys here that get that ON A BRANCH!


----------



## sopappy

Bongofury said:


> I'm a week and a half behind your grow Sopappy. I hope mine look that good. green mojo



 How'd it go, Mr Fury? I'm not hard to beat :-(


----------



## Kraven

sopappy said:


> My EIGHT plant harvest is coming in at a whopping FOUR OUNCES. Worse than I thought but not by much hahaha. There's guys here that get that ON A BRANCH!



 Sopappy, you did that yourself, tis the fruit of your labor man, and I bet it is some epic smoke bro. Good job on getting from seed to baggie. Now we just get 8 z' off eight plants next time, an before I'm done with you you can pull 9 z's off one plant in a four plant set-up.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Sopappy, you did that yourself, tis the fruit of your labor man, and I bet it is some epic smoke bro. Good job on getting from seed to baggie. Now we just get 8 z' off eight plants next time, an before I'm done with you you can pull 9 z's off one plant in a four plant set-up.



 oh man, am I glad you popped by... I'm off to a better start this time; jump in any time if you spot something dumb. The bubblers are pretty good... I'm only running them for 5 minutes every half hour, adding H2O2 as I still see some brown again :-( 

View attachment gang.JPG


View attachment bubblers.JPG


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## sopappy

Hey Kraven, Doc, you lads around this morning? anybody? I did a rez change last night and ph is up (5.5 to 5.8) AND ppms are up (340 - 390).. how the hell does the ppm go up?
<br />
one more.... should I leave those bubblers 7/24 or can i go 5 min every half hour?


----------



## Kraven

Whats the rez temp, that's an indicator that the your getting something in the rez. Look at the roots, are they nice and white, smell the water does it have a murky smell? If your feeding too light the pH will go everywhere while the ppm goes down, if your right then the pH will slowly ramp up from 5.7 -6.2 and the ppm will fall slowly, if your getting a spike in pH and the ppm is going up is the water level going down fast? Also less water = more nutes unless you top off daily, which you need to do.


----------



## sopappy

I'm using frozen cubes of solution to keep it between 18 - 22 (65 - 72) but it has crept higher for couple hours each night (75) <br /)
One has a half dozen nice white hairs about 3 inches long. Another has one long one with a little bit of brown at the net pot but white all the way down.
(I worry the bubbles rub the hairs against the net pot), the other 3 look good but no roots showing yet.<br /)
I have not had to add anything in about two weeks of this. I just figured, no roots, no level change, but with roots now, I'm amazed the ppm rose. The water level is exactly the same. 
<br />
and holy smokes, what took you so long hahaha.... I was researching myself after posting and found this: Why does PPM go up? Can only be one of two reasons - either water is leaving faster than the nutes (and you are not replacing it) or you are adding some other "salt" (like pH down).
<br /> I had to add pH to get it down to 5.5 for Pete's sake, pleasing these plants is like trying to please wimmen.


----------



## Kraven

Ahhh yea your pH will not stabilize till 24 hrs or so, so I always mix my nute solution the day before and pH then the next day I always have to make a minor adjustment, but at that point its pretty stable.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Ahhh yea your pH will not stabilize till 24 hrs or so, so I always mix my nute solution the day before and pH then the next day I always have to make a minor adjustment, but at that point its pretty stable.



I read that somewhere else too. I guess I had to hear it twice, sheesh, thanks.


----------



## Rosebud

I think THG calls that a drift.

Baby mojo Sopappy!


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## Dr. Green Fang

Yep, you're drifting. 5.5 - 5.8 with that ppm rise is most likely water evap or they are drinking. If there's no roots really in there, they are probably not drinking much. Also, yeah, like Kraven said....after you take water and put it to air, it takes about 24 hours to "settle" where it wants to be. So just factor that in...usually it will come out at, say, 5.5 and settle to around 5.8 just over night. 

Personally, I have 0 experience putting little tiny things like that into the hydroton so soon. I just popped some seeds the other day (first time in over a year) and will be waiting until the cotyledons yellow and fall off, and I have a few sets of "true leaves" before I put my "core" (Sunshine Advanced Mix #4) into the mesh pot and surround it with hydroton. I think you're asking too much of that little tiny seed to spread her roots into such a VAST area so soon. You know?  

I hope that all makes sense... for for peats sake, PM me so I get a notification that you would like someone to check this out, ya dig?  :aok: :48:

I'm not on MP as much as I used to be, but I do still check everyday quickly...life has been coming at me at 100 mph, and yeah.


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Yep, you're drifting. 5.5 - 5.8 with that ppm rise is most likely water evap or they are drinking. If there's no roots really in there, they are probably not drinking much. Also, yeah, like Kraven said....after you take water and put it to air, it takes about 24 hours to &quot;settle&quot; where it wants to be. So just factor that in...usually it will come out at, say, 5.5 and settle to around 5.8 just over night. <br />
> <br />
> 
> ===> I always have a big tub full of chlorinated water sitting with a stone in it but I haven't been letting mixtures sit for 24 hours. After K-tips this morning, I whipped up batches for nute change tomorrow. Both are at 5.5 and 80 ppms today.<br/>
> 
> Personally, I have 0 experience putting little tiny things like that into the hydroton so soon.<br/>
> 
> ===> Kraven's method. I couldn't believe it when I saw the picture, I laughed out loud until I saw the pictures that followed it. I'm having a hard time with it though. How else do you do it? I can't see washing dirt off roots ??? and i like the idea of no transplanting<br/>
> 
> I just popped some seeds the other day (first time in over a year) and will be waiting until the cotyledons yellow and fall off<br/>
> 
> ====> I've had plants with 6 nodes and cotyledons still looking just fine, then again, that's me and my processes <br/>
> 
> and I have a few sets of &quot;true leaves&quot; before I put my &quot;core&quot; (Sunshine Advanced Mix #4) into the mesh pot and surround it with hydroton. I think you're asking too much of that little tiny seed to spread her roots into such a VAST area so soon. You know? <img src="images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" smilieid="1" class="inlineimg" /> <br />
> <br />
> I hope that all makes sense... for for peats sake, PM me so I get a notification that you would like someone to check this out, ya dig? <img src="images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" smilieid="3" class="inlineimg" /> <img src="images/smilies/aok.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Aok" smilieid="31" class="inlineimg" /> <img src="images/smilies/48.gif" border="0" alt="" title="share toke" smilieid="24" class="inlineimg" /><br />
> <br />
> I'm not on MP as much as I used to be, but I do still check everyday quickly...life has been coming at me at 100 mph, and yeah.  <img src="images/smilies/smile.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Smile" smilieid="1" class="inlineimg" />


<br />
<br />

A busy soldier is a happy soldier, I'm glad to hear you're staying ahead of it. There's several here who jump in when they see me going down for the 3rd time so I'm reluctant to PM people but I do appreciate the offer
please see ===> above


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> I think THG calls that a drift.
> 
> Baby mojo Sopappy!



  Yup, there's a drift you shoot for... 2 weeks now and I'm close but still no ramp. Thanks for the mojo, Rose, can't get enough of it here hahaha


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## Dr. Green Fang

> Kraven's method. I couldn't believe it when I saw the picture, I laughed out loud until I saw the pictures that followed it. I'm having a hard time with it though. How else do you do it? I can't see washing dirt off roots ??? and i like the idea of no transplanting



I pop my seeds between 2 plates and 2 moist paper towels. When they have 1/8" or so of tap root, I transplant into red solo cup full of Sunshine Advanced Mix #4. This is a soilless medium (no nute and works for hydro!). I've done ENTIRE crops with sunshine only... but there's no need to use that much. After your seedlings grows out of the red solo cup, and has nice established roots, you can transplant that into any other medium and situation you want, without issue. Like, you could transplant that into mesh pot and surround the "Sunshine Core" with Hydroton / Lava Rock / etc.. and absolutely none of the Sunshine CAN or WILL get into your hydro system  

Also, the Sunshine is a perfect "starter" mix in my honest humble opinion. Coco coir, peat moss (slight amount), perlite, mycorrhizae 

They make a *perfect * core :aok: Go thumb though the years of journals I put up. Take your time and just scroll through all the pics. You don't have to get caught up in the discussion, unless you want to.. but I think it would help ya. 



> I've had plants with 6 nodes and cotyledons still looking just fine, then again, that's me and my processes



Oh, I have as well! But I consider it "established" at that point, you know?


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> trimmed good stuff, thanks.  ....Like, you could transplant that into mesh pot and surround the &quot;Sunshine Core&quot; with Hydroton / Lava Rock / etc.. and absolutely none of the Sunshine CAN or WILL get into your hydro system
> 
> />



 how can that be?
I can get it here but I'm not following how it won't get in to the water.


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## Dr. Green Fang

lol...by the time you transplant it, it's an entirely solid "core"...mostly just a root cube at that point. When you surround it on all sides by a bunch of Hydroton, there's no place for anything from the core to go. Not even a piece of perlite escapes. :aok:


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

sopappy said:


> oh man, am I glad you popped by... I'm off to a better start this time; jump in any time if you spot something dumb. The bubblers are pretty good...* I'm only running them for 5 minutes every half hour*, adding H2O2 as I still see some brown again :-(


 
The bubbles have to run all the time.  Roots that sit in un-aerated water are subject to all kinds of bad things.  I think I lost a plant because I had a foul up with an airstone and a plant sat in un-aerated water all night--the roots look icky.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Yep... much aeration is GOOD!
No / minimum aeration is BAD!


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

Dr. Green Fang said:


> lol...by the time you transplant it, it's an entirely solid "core"...mostly just a root cube at that point. When you surround it on all sides by a bunch of Hydroton, there's no place for anything from the core to go. Not even a piece of perlite escapes. :aok:


 
I have done this in the past--I take a soil plant and let all the soil that comes off easily come off.  Then I shove it into a net pot.  If there is any space left, I add hydrotron.  The first time I did this as my system does not recirc, I figured that as the dirt washed away into the res that I would add more hydrotron and change out the bucket more often.  To my surprise, I got virtually no dirt in the nute solution.  The net pot contained the soil and the roots grew through the net pot just as they did when I started them in a rapid rooter and hydrotron.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> lol...by the time you transplant it, it's an entirely solid &quot;core&quot;...mostly just a root cube at that point. When you surround it on all sides by a bunch of Hydroton, there's no place for anything from the core to go. Not even a piece of perlite escapes. :aok:



 I NEVER would have thought that, it's on my shopping list and I can get it here too.


----------



## sopappy

The Hemp Goddess said:


> The bubbles have to run all the time.  Roots that sit in un-aerated water are subject to all kinds of bad things.  I think I lost a plant because I had a foul up with an airstone and a plant sat in un-aerated water all night--the roots look icky.



 Hi THG,     It IS still recirculating 7/24 but is no longer a drip. I ran the drip hose down through the hydroton so it &quot;drips&quot; below the pot (so I still have the recirculation) I added bubblers in each pot, you can see the bubbles picture up there somewhere. Plenty o' bubbles so I was thinking maybe I don't have to run it all the time.


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## sopappy

The Hemp Goddess said:


> I have done this in the past--I take a soil plant and let all the soil that comes off easily come off.  Then I shove it into a net pot.  If there is any space left, I add hydrotron.  The first time I did this as my system does not recirc, I figured that as the dirt washed away into the res that I would add more hydrotron and change out the bucket more often.  To my surprise, I got virtually no dirt in the nute solution.  The net pot contained the soil and the roots grew through the net pot just as they did when I started them in a rapid rooter and hydrotron.



 Hard to believe but if there's no drip, no watering of the hydroton, there'd be nothing to wash the dirt down in to the bucket. I see it now (I think)... I'm going to try Doc's dirt without a rapid rooter.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Pff, I even did it with a drip system. Heck, I've done ENTIRE Sunshine Hydro runs... I just used a smart pot to block the holes on the mesh pot. I used 3 types of methods for my hybrid system; DWC / Drip / Under Current. 

So honestly, if you ever worry about it, you can use a mesh pot regardless

:aok: Good stuff Sopappy


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## sopappy

I would like to connect one end of this SS coil to a half inch copper feed line nearby using a 12VDC solenoid and appropriate size flexible tubing (like on my furnace humidifier) (or a simple tap and use the solenoid valve at the other end)<br/>
It will drain to waste. (drop the coil in to res, solenoid keeps temps 65-70)
Can you suggest a suitable 12VDC solenoid valve? 
-thank you.
 I'm wondering if it's really stainless steel. I just made these two coils with my bare hands and a jack post in the basement. 

View attachment 100_0884.JPG


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## sopappy

Hey Kraven! I just read your tips re DWC ramp at your grow page. Thank you, I can't hear that enough. I have your K-tips printed all over my walls hahaha <br/>
You didn't mention pH of the added back water... is it okay to try and throttle back a too rapid pH rise with some pH downed water? <br/>
One set is doing great, I think it's a ramp! readings at least 8 hours apart:
5.9 180... 5.8 180... 5.8 170... 5.9 160...
the other set, not so great, doing nothing, water lvl barely down, maybe just drinking? 

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## sopappy

Here's my Pythium survivors after a trim. I'm trying Kraven's candelebra thing but I hope to mainline the ones in the hydroton. 

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## Grower13

dang sopappy....... it's only march where you live?     you must live way way off in the sticks.......... lmao.


----------



## Kraven

wow looking good pappy, I usually add back at 5.8 but if the ph is around 6.1 I'll  go back with 5.6 to bring the pH back into a lower range, the idea is to prevent large or rapid pH swings. I start around 5.6 -5.7 and I do my add backs to slowly ramp up to 6.3 over 7 days. When its moving a bunch, say from 5.7 to 6.0 in two days or less they need to be fed more, the food will lower pH and raise ppm some. Your right it takes practice, but if you watch the "ramp" and the plants, between the two it will tell you when you are dialed in tight.


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## sopappy

Grower13 said:


> dang sopappy....... it's only march where you live?     you must live way way off in the sticks.......... lmao.



 The camera door is busted and falls open easily and I'm too irritated to walk through the date presses. I updated it today though, it's correct, I like day / mth / year, seems more logical to me.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> ----trimmed---..after you take water and put it to air, it takes about 24 hours to &quot;settle&quot; where it wants to be. So just factor that in...usually it will come out at, say, 5.5 and settle to around 5.8 just over night.


 I let both nute solutions sit overnight this time  two nights in fact. The numbers didn't budge. Ya know, I'm finding out some things just aren't normal in here.
I know chlorine needs 24 hours to evaporate so I keep a 45L tub with an air stone constantly full for my source. My tap water is 8.7. What do you think the tub water it is the next day? oxygen makes pH rise but not in here, it drops to 7.6


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## Grower13

sopappy said:


> The camera door is busted and falls open easily and I'm too irritated to walk through the date presses. I updated it today though, it's correct, I like day / mth / year, seems more logical to me.


 

mine is a pain to program to........ I leave it turned off cause I don't want to set it.


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## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> wow looking good pappy, I usually add back at 5.8 but if the ph is around 6.1 I'll  go back with 5.6 to bring the pH back into a lower range, the idea is to prevent large or rapid pH swings. I start around 5.6 -5.7 and I do my add backs to slowly ramp up to 6.3 over 7 days. When its moving a bunch, say from 5.7 to 6.0 in two days or less they need to be fed more, the food will lower pH and raise ppm some. Your right it takes practice, but if you watch the &quot;ramp&quot; and the plants, between the two it will tell you when you are dialed in tight.



***usually add back (ph'd) water*** but if jump to 6 too fast, is it then okay to top up with nuted water or do you wait, water only and increase nutes next change?


----------



## sopappy

Grower13 said:


> mine is a pain to program to........ I leave it turned off cause I don't want to set it.



 I can't find where to turn the feature off. It takes crummy pictures too. But it was waterproof until I broke the battery door.
funny thing, I just noticed it defaults to the last date and if I close the door again right away, all I have to do is press okay


----------



## Kraven

Just look at your plants if they can take a higher ppm then yes, nutes will lower the pH and raise the ppm. It's a balancing act pappy, to find the right ppm for the stage of growth your in, the plant will need very different things along it's life cycle. The key to hydro is to fully understand what the plant is doing and what needs the plant has, without knowing that or how to read you plants well hydro for some can be a nightmare. My advice is to find someone who runs hydro well and just copy them, run the same strain in the same set up with the same nutes, get a few good grows under your belt and then start to tweak the system to your likes and needs, but to go from scratch and try to grow stains your not familiar with it can be tough if you don't have a solid foundation of plant mechanics. Your gonna get there Pappy, sometimes it just takes a bit longer for some than others. I would encourage you to read everything you can on the strains you are running and hydroponics in general. I have over 30 books I read and reread when I'm having a difficult time, because I forget the basic's from time to time. Good luck and green mojo brother


----------



## Kraven

In no way would I ever say that about someone. I said very clearly, some people have a natural talent and things seem to come easy to them, and others have to work a bit harder but in the end get the same results. I'm kinda pissed you feel that way, I have done nothing but try to help you. If you think I'm doing anything other than that then you have wasted both our times.


----------



## Grower13

I think y'all misunderstand what the other means......... let's smoke a fatty be peaceful....... we all here to grow better pot.

:48:


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> In no way would I ever say that about someone. I said very clearly, some people have a natural talent and things seem to come easy to them, and others have to work a bit harder but in the end get the same results. I'm kinda pissed you feel that way, I have done nothing but try to help you. If you think I'm doing anything other than that then you have wasted both our times.



 It was a joke. In my day, it was socially acceptable to be a jerk about things like that. It used to be funny, sort of, I was just poking fun at myself for being a slow learner. I do apologize if you were offended, it was not my intent.


----------



## sopappy

Grower13 said:


> I think y'all misunderstand what the other means......... let's smoke a fatty be peaceful....... we all here to grow better pot.
> 
> :48:



 Sometimes my attempts at humour fail quite spectacularly


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

I caught the joke Sopappy.. it wasn't lost on me. 

In today's world, that joke isn't as accepted but 20 years ago people would've been rolling over lol.


----------



## Kraven

Pappy I misunderstood. I though you were being serious. I rode the short bus till 4th grade myself until people finally realized I wasn't retarded, I had a learning disability to overcome, and I did. I graduated summa cum laude from both my High School and when I got my AA. To me that joke has no humor. But it's cool.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Pappy I misunderstood. I though you were being serious. I rode the short bus till 4th grade myself until people finally realized I wasn't retarded, I had a learning disability to overcome, and I did. I graduated summa cum laude from both my High School and when I got my AA. To me that joke has no humor. But it's cool.



 No, it's not cool. I feel quite shitty now seeing as you were actually on one of those buses. I just fear we are losing the ability to laugh at ourselves. Everybody takes offense so easily these days. I think most often it;s the printed word that gets me (us) in trouble.... if I had said that while we were sharing a spliff, you would have objected and I'dve been falling all over myself apologizing and trying to justify the black humour. 
My uncle died in a mental institution, my son had ADD, I'm borderline.... it's not like I'm not poking fun at myself too, Kraven. Frankly, I HAVE to laugh .... 
No humour at all? I do regret the post


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> I caught the joke Sopappy.. it wasn't lost on me.
> 
> In today's world, that joke isn't as accepted but 20 years ago people would've been rolling over lol.



 Thanks for that, Doc. I'm really a pretty decent guy, I just like black humour. It's just SO rude that i can't help but laugh.


----------



## Kraven

No worries, and yes it is really hard to place tone and voice inflection into the written word when we really communicate visually and through visual cues. I'm not angry pappy lets just move on bro


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> No worries, and yes it is really hard to place tone and voice inflection into the written word when we really communicate visually and through visual cues. I'm not angry pappy lets just move on bro



 Still feeling kinda crummy today... I'm deleting it. I never laughed at those kids back then and I don't mean to make fun of them now. It was more that i liked the delayed reaction of trying to figure out the short bus reference but no excuses, it was boorish to say the least.


----------



## Kraven

be happy and smoke this fattie with me bro :48:


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> be happy and smoke this fattie with me bro :48:



 right on... but I'm being punished, my friend. I finally got lots of root action but can't shake the pythium. I wonder if this is a scam, damn, another 100 bucks, jezus I sure don't mean to plug these guys but if it works... http://tinyurl.com/pwpt792


----------



## Kraven

Hmm pappy, lets find out why your getting pythium. What are the res temps? Do you have good aeration in the res? Is there light leaks? We gotta find the problem, fix it and not have to spend 100 bucks. Go get some H2o2, the 35% kind (mix it 50/50 with water). Dip the roots/basket in it for a few sec and then into clean water, do dips in each about ten times (making sure you get all the roots up to the stem) and then set the roots/basket in clean water, then get some rubber gloves and use a 50/50 mix to clean everything well, then reload res and put you plants back in.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> Hmm pappy, lets find out why your getting pythium. What are the res temps?
> ======>I finally got my coils and silicone tubing and am playing with it today. I'm hoping to maintain 64 - 66 , it would get to 76, 77 using the ice cube method :-(
> Do you have good aeration in the res?
> =======>  It was too good, the surface was so turbulent that I found long pieces of healthy root. On that, that brown **** was quite localized and elsewhere the roots were white. I've removed the bubblers and just drop a tube in to each rez. The monster pump boils those two little buckets. The plant buckets have a tube down through the pellets that drops water in to the bucket from res about 2 in below net pot.
> Is there light leaks?
> =====>  both rooms 24hr veg
> We gotta find the problem, fix it and not have to spend 100 bucks. Go get some H2o2, the 35% kind (mix it 50/50 with water). Dip the roots/basket in it for a few sec and then into clean water, do dips in each about ten times (making sure you get all the roots up to the stem) and then set the roots/basket in clean water, then get some rubber gloves and use a 50/50 mix to clean everything well, then reload res and put you plants back in.  >>> 50/50.... wow. That does sound better that what I'm trying. =======>Thanks as usual.


   Off I go, thanks, fingers crossed see ======> above  
 I had some 35% here so I went at it and am amazed at the result. There's still some brown but I only had the one bottle of 35%. I'll get more tomorrow and do it all again.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

My res is currently 81° and I've had them even higher in the past. Just tossing that out there


----------



## Kraven

So are you saying that temp is not his problem? Whatcha thinking Doc, pythium needs an acidic pH, micro/macro nutrients and a warm damp dark environment since it is a fungus. It is transported by fungal spores in the air, so maybe his air stones are transferring the pathogen? I'm just sorta stumped why he has recurrent infestations. I wish I could go there and look for myself, btw I have had res temps stay in the low 80's for a whole grow and did not have issues either, but for new growers its the first thing I suggest because it is the most likely solution. Also he sorta has a hybrid thing going on with his system so I'm not quite sure of how the root zone is? Wish I could get him to get one started in a 10 gal DWC so we could see where his left turn is and help him. He's got the drive but this pythium is killin him slowly


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

OH, you're correct on what's needed for Pythium (obviously) just making a note my temps hah. I think my temps are too high and I hate it, but not really any fungal issues yet...I'm thinking it's too much air or should I say too hot / too much air from a mega pump? Is it that overly large / loud / hot pump? I used one for 1/2 a day and had to pack it up. $50 down the drain  

I really am just getting over issues myself, so don't know if I'm one to give advice lol!


----------



## Kraven

No, Doc ya got me wrong bro, I was trying to pick your brain  I was sorta out of idea's and was hoping maybe you might have an idea I had not though of, hopefully you didn't feel like that was a **** move on my part, I guess I could have worded it different. I was thinking same about pump, got to be where he is introducing spores at??


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> My res is currently 81° and I've had them even higher in the past. Just tossing that out there



 I've been reading. There are schools of thought that say temperature is not a big deal as concerns Pythium. Cleanliness seems to be the main issue. I'm trying beneficial microbes but I've had to kill the first two batches as I can't get a clean start. I think Kraven's 50/50 oughta do it though.
Speaking of res temps.... I'm testing my cooling coils... it just might work.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> No, Doc ya got me wrong bro, I was trying to pick your brain  I was sorta out of idea's and was hoping maybe you might have an idea I had not though of, hopefully you didn't feel like that was a **** move on my part, I guess I could have worded it different. I was thinking same about pump, got to be where he is introducing spores at??



 With that pump I had the buckets doing a rolling boil and I think there was way too much agitation (and blowing spores now too it seems). It tangled the roots something fierce: I think it must have been like hanging roots in a washing machine.
 I've since removed them, no bubbles in the buckets, just the drip hose (not a drip anymore) popping out the bottom of the pot for (hopefully) a waterfall effect and oxygen (as well as recirculation)
Both reses have just the air hoses in them now and boil away like crazy along with 3 other 45L holding tanks, Hollleee, that pump blows! 
 There are two systems, each are equally infected. What's the common denominator? ME 
   I'm pretty sure it's cleanliness. I was dipping my hand in the res filling ice cube container. I rinse constantly and have separate utensils and stuff but I think I'm just not thorough enough.


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> So are you saying that temp is not his problem? Whatcha thinking Doc, pythium needs an acidic pH, micro/macro nutrients and a warm damp dark environment since it is a fungus. It is transported by fungal spores in the air, so maybe his air stones are transferring the pathogen? I'm just sorta stumped why he has recurrent infestations. I wish I could go there and look for myself, btw I have had res temps stay in the low 80's for a whole grow and did not have issues either, but for new growers its the first thing I suggest because it is the most likely solution. Also he sorta has a hybrid thing going on with his system so I'm not quite sure of how the root zone is? Wish I could get him to get one started in a 10 gal DWC so we could see where his left turn is and help him. He's got the drive but this pythium is killin him slowly



 I actually had a ramp going dammit  
I think your cleaning routine is going to save the day, I need more h2o2  I'll take some pictures along the way, you might spot something. I'm going to remove the the submersible pumps and use external ones and the pump circulates the water from the res to the drip tubes which wind down through the hydroton to hang just below the pot (waterfall, no air stone or hose) Out through the bottom to next bucket to res


----------



## sopappy

Kravenhead said:


> So are you saying that temp is not his problem? Whatcha thinking Doc, pythium needs an acidic pH, micro/macro nutrients and a warm damp dark environment since it is a fungus. It is transported by fungal spores in the air, so maybe his air stones are transferring the pathogen? I'm just sorta stumped why he has recurrent infestations. I wish I could go there and look for myself, btw I have had res temps stay in the low 80's for a whole grow and did not have issues either, but for new growers its the first thing I suggest because it is the most likely solution. Also he sorta has a hybrid thing going on with his system so I'm not quite sure of how the root zone is? Wish I could get him to get one started in a 10 gal DWC so we could see where his left turn is and help him. He's got the drive but this pythium is killin him slowly



 A blood-sucking parasite transmitted by the feet of gnats ??!?!!
wikipedia:
Pythium is a genus of parasitic oomycotes. Most species are plant parasites, They were formerly classified as fungi; the feet of the fungus gnat are frequently a vector for their transmission.


----------



## sopappy

I'm confused. I've topped 4 plants. LST training for 4 - 6 colas, but I'm thinking they're too sparse and the stems are thin. With the plant pictured, that longer branch of the two remaining after topped... should I just leave 3 nodes for the cola and cut everything before that? or more simply, would you trim any more? if so, where?
It is not under that T5, it's LED, I just moved it there hoping for a better picture HA! 

View attachment 100_0902.JPG


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## Dr. Green Fang

A few of the larger fan leaves in the lower 1/4 section could be removed, but beyond that I say it looks pretty darn good :aok:


----------



## Kraven

Yea bro, just let her rip.....


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> A few of the larger fan leaves in the lower 1/4 section could be removed, but beyond that I say it looks pretty darn good :aok:



 I left them as I figured they weren't blocking anything but now that you mention it, they can go.


----------



## sopappy

Kraven said:


> Yea bro, just let her rip.....



 I've lost track of how old they are... are you saying I can flower 'em now?


----------



## Kraven

I don't see alternating nodes yet, do you see any preflowers, has it sexed yet?


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

sopappy said:


> I left them as I figured they weren't blocking anything but now that you mention it, they can go.




Take note, the fan leaves act as "solar panels" for the nodes adjacent. So, those fan leaves would only do so much for your more important nodes.  

:aok:


----------



## sopappy

Kraven said:


> I don't see alternating nodes yet, do you see any preflowers, has it sexed yet?



 I topped them. Do you mean alternating nodes on the &quot;cola&quot; branches?  They're feminized so I  haven't been paying close attention but the hairs on the back of my neck stand up when there's males around. I better have another look. 

  update: I'm surprised you guys still check in, I'm sinking to new lows... I thought they were fem'd, or maybe the pythium got to them but it looks like 3 of the 4 are males, I could spit. Most expensive hydro in North America, wish I could use the F word.


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Take note, the fan leaves act as &quot;solar panels&quot; for the nodes adjacent. So, those fan leaves would only do so much for your more important nodes.
> 
> :aok:



Note taken...In some of my reading, I discovered a fellow who trims ALL the fans except the ones feeding cola branches. I also read that they don't see green (green light ok sleeping) so, to them, the leaves are actually transparent so they aren't really blocking any light.


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## sopappy

Gidday all, I'm growing stuff in here again. Pythium scared me off my RDWC so I'm back in soil, nothin special and got some healthy seed from quebecseeds. Weehoo, look at me, I'm a growier. Do I push my luck and drop those seedlings in the buckets? 

View attachment flower2.jpg


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## mindtrip

Glad to see you're at it again sopappy!  Sorry about the male problem you had.


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## Grower13

green mojo sopappy


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## Kraven

Green mojo pappy, glad your back.


----------



## sopappy

mindtrip said:


> Glad to see you're at it again sopappy!  Sorry about the male problem you had.



 nope, I had all fem'd... I just couldn't germinbate or keep anything growing! I hadn't cleaned my coco coir good enough and I also had an unbelievable run of bad luck with seeds, **** from 3 local places and a nightmare with Ironseeds in Toronto. although they tried to make good
I am thrilled with Quebecseeds so far, so good, clever shipping and 4/5 and 5/6 in flower 

update: I ordered more seeds and they went astray.....  NO PROBLEM, he sent me the order again... NO CHARGE!


----------



## sopappy

Grower13 said:


> green mojo sopappy



 yep, needs lots of that, thank you


----------



## sopappy

Kraven said:


> Green mojo pappy, glad your back.



 Hey Kraven!  No buckets goin' on hahaha, I think I just tried too much, too fast. I have plants growing in year-old dirt, seedlings in potting soil and the plugs, not really giving a damn and stuff is growing hahaha, I'm surprised you guys let me play here.


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## sopappy

Not even sure what I've got going on in the veg room these days, one disaster after another but somehow, some survive. I have 4 in flower that were pythium plagued in the buckets but recovered, sort of. Sleeping now, pics later. They are flowering but trichromes are scarce.<br/>

Some uglies in veg are survivors too, I added some potting soil and put them in bigger pots (for shits and giggles). I'm surprised they lived so I experiment. I had a couple I practiced removing soil from roots. Too stressful, the rapidrooters and pellets worked superbly, the roots looked just like the package har har. <br/>

The transplant from 4" pellets to buckets was easy and they were dipped in benes (sic?) and are top watered for now, no roots in nutes yet. Doing a half-bummed ebb and flow with 2 remaining in 4" pellets. Roots are poking out the bottom and if the two in buckets succumb to pythium, I have back-ups. <br/>

The 4" under the T5 are all in potting soil, no rooters and everything is coming up. I think the trick is to treat them the way we used to treat kids. Have plenty more of them so if you lose some it's not the end of the world eh?<br/>

I think the yellowing is over-watering and that crummy soil. 

View attachment gang.JPG


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## Kraven

Just keep plugging along pappy, what you got don't look so bad. Sometimes it just takes a bit of practice to find ourselves, but once you get your groove you will be on fire, your gaining tons of knowledge along the way. Keep up the good work.


----------



## sopappy

These are 4 of 5 seeds planted in rapid rooters. They were started in 4&quot; pots filled with hydroton. I took the two largest seedlings and transplanted them in to the buckets. They have both recently dropped roots and pH creeping up 5.5 to 5.8 over 3 days, but ppm still steady at 300 <br/>
The &quot;smaller&quot; 2 seedlings were plopped in to a tray and I goofed and nuted high, 5.5 pH but 1150 ppm. I've been emptying the tray morning and night and refilling with fresh (but still too high) nutes. Look at them. 5.7 pH and 1000 ppm. They each have maybe a 1-2&quot; inch root squashed under the pot.<br/>
Why aren't the buckets' ones eating like the 2 in the tray? Should I drain and re-fill with 1200 ppm? 

View attachment 000_0001.jpg


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## Dr. Green Fang

> They have both recently dropped roots and pH creeping up 5.5 to 5.8 over 3 days, but ppm still steady at 300



Perfect. Keep the water topped off to the top level at all times. Every day top your water off! They are just drinking right now, and that's great  You're on your way to hydro goodness!! :aok: 



> Why aren't the buckets' ones eating? Should I drain and re-fill with 1200 ppm?



They are small still ya? They are just sipping water. When they start eating, YOU'LL KNOW IT. Make sure you can always gauge what your "topped off" level is. I've learned that this hydro thing has a LOT to do with topping off with fresh water every single day. 

Also .. side note.. have I mentioned I hate soil? LOL!!


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Perfect. Keep the water topped off to the top level at all times. Every day top your water off! They are just drinking right now, and that's great  You're on your way to hydro goodness!! :aok:
> 
> 
> 
> They are small still ya? They are just sipping water. When they start eating, YOU'LL KNOW IT. Make sure you can always gauge what your &quot;topped off&quot; level is. I've learned that this hydro thing has a LOT to do with topping off with fresh water every single day.
> 
> Also .. side note.. have I mentioned I hate soil? LOL!!



   Weehoo, thanks, Fang! I thought things were looking good but good to hear!! I am still confused about the growth. Look at the 2 in the tray, they were the smaller of the 4. I put the 2 bigger plants in the buckets. Same strain, they all came up same day. I'm thinking I shocked the 2 with the transplant (which struck me as far less stressful than a dirt transplant) I also have 1000ppm and am changing the nute solution every 12 hours, 
seems wrong but look at the plants, weird. 
But I will stick to 5.5 plain water top-ups for the rez, water level is at bottom of net pot but I'll lower it next change and can I give them 1200 ppm ? 
Oh no! so sorry to see the mite problems, hope all recovers okay!


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

> But I will stick to 5.5 plain water top-ups for the rez, water level is at bottom of net pot but I'll lower it next change and can I give them 1200 ppm ?



Firstly.. let's get some things on track. I don't go lower than 5.7.. 5.6 I may "let it slide" if it's just after a fresh reset, but overall I do not like to go below 5.7. And my high number is 6.3 highest! You want your add back water to be between 6.1-6.3, this will give you the proper ramp over time. If you don't do certain things in certain orders and numbers, your rez will start dropping massively in PH and you'll be fighting a floating battle. Personally, I have an ATO (Automatic Top Off) system in place in all my res's so that every 6 hours that the system isn't running, a pump will run for 15 minutes pumping 6.2ph'd water from my Brute Trash can (food safe) into my 55 gal res, with the level set to 40 gal with a Water Float Valve. So, every 12 hours my system will flood my setup, and then pump back in after 15 minutes. Every 12 hours alternating with 6 hour offsets, my ATO will turn off and bring the res back up. My PPM's slowly go down over time (fast if they eat a lot) and my ph will slowly rise from 5.7 up to around 6.1(3) over about a weeks time. It's the ramp you're looking for. So for you, just make sure you go in your room after every feeding and automatically top your water off to a set point of reset value. I have to do this manually everyday with my Tent 3 that has one 18 gal DWC setup going in it. It's a pain, but it creates a happy system. Also, my fill line is static. I'm at 10" exactly. When the roots really take over, I will keep my top off line to 10" but since there's so much more root system, it will take less water anyways. No need to make your plant try too hard. Let it hit the water and then THRIVE. At least this is my opinion. So, get a measure tape in your res and keep a note how many gallons your TOP level is, in inches. That's where you want it to be everyday. Watch your PPM's and PH and then add back solution accordingly.. usually once a week you'll get your res back up to 1200 ppm's or whatever you happen to be at. If you're vegging I personally don't go over 800 - 1000 ppm's. 

Hope I answered everything. Please keep me in the loop.. it seems you've got a great start going here.  

Random thought. When they are small in rapid rooters / rockwool (can't remember .. I think rooters you use?) you get a good bunch of roots on the outsize of the rooter before you transplant into the hydroton with dwc bin, yes? Also, for the first 3-5 days you DO top feed yes??


----------



## sopappy

Good lord, drugs, ignore all that up there, Fang, I know you're busy.<br/>
you were asking about rapid rooters... I'm sold. The mistake I made was thinking I could pull off a "Kraven" but THG set me straight.... suggested I let them mature a bit more.<br/>
Here's a transplant from 4inch to the bucket. 

View attachment 100_0962.JPG


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----------



## Dr. Green Fang

> The mistake I made was thinking I could pull off a "Kraven" but THG set me straight.... suggested I let them mature a bit more.



First of all YES! Don't pull a Kraven (though he did/does phenomenal)... let those roots build up a bit before transplanting into such a big DWC system, and yes... top feed for the first couple days either way, even with a system like that. That's a NICE root system and I'm super happy for you!!!!  

As for your last thing.. I went to reply at night while I was almost sleeping, and I just couldn't figure out your reply methods... especially when you're dropping sentences in the middle of my paragraphs. lol 

No worries! 

Good damn job mate! You're on the way now, eh?


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> First of all YES! Don't pull a Kraven (though he did/does phenomenal)... let those roots build up a bit before transplanting into such a big DWC system, and yes... top feed for the first couple days either way, even with a system like that. That's a NICE root system and I'm super happy for you!!!!
> 
> As for your last thing.. I went to reply at night while I was almost sleeping, and I just couldn't figure out your reply methods... especially when you're dropping sentences in the middle of my paragraphs. lol
> 
> No worries!
> 
> Good damn job mate! You're on the way now, eh?



 hahaha, I looked at the post later myself and laughed out loud. I  should have spared you that
by a &quot;Kraven&quot;, I meant a &quot;miracle&quot;, that man is possessed
I checked grows last night and I always check his LAST because I end up logging off and surfing porn
That has got to be one of the prettiest logs I've seen to date
When I pulled (gently) that ball out of the 4 inch pot, I actually shrieked  like a little girl. I see some brown hue in the picture but I think that's the camera, They are beautiful and I noticed a &quot;carrot&quot; smell (that struck me as gud)


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Brown "hue" is general fine and can be attributed to nutrient stain :aok: 

Great to hear things are going well man!!


----------



## Kraven

Popping in to see......your in good hands pappy, Doc taught me everything I know, he is the one that talked my into my first hydro and helped me through it the whole way, listen to him he will have you growing like a pro.


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

Kraven said:


> Popping in to see......your in good hands pappy, Doc taught me everything I know, he is the one that talked my into my first hydro and helped me through it the whole way, listen to him he will have you growing like a pro.



Aww shucks Kraven


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

HAAHAHAH be careful with that H2O2!!! That stuff freaks me out when I get it on my skin! lol I try very hard not to :aok:


----------



## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> HAAHAHAH be careful with that H2O2!!! That stuff freaks me out when I get it on my skin! lol I try very hard not to :aok:



that and bleach. I will not even touch the containers without gloves on now.<br/>
it should be in a plastic bags like that drain cleaner acid, that scares you, I got the **** on my hands carrying the jug to the counter!! It's vented or some crap! <br/>
 What a soft, girly smooth skin surface, no grip, awful. You see white, it's too late hahaha aaarrrggghh<br/>


----------



## Dr. Green Fang

lol!!!! 

Trust me.. I'm not laughing at you. WITH you on this one hah!


----------



## sopappy

Out of the pot and in to the fire... I'm going to try mainlining these two a la groweedeasy. <br/>
It was downright painful removing all that growth<br/>
The one on the right was the size of the one on the left (grew 6 nodes, topped at 3rd)<br/)
I'll clear below 3rd soon. The two in background: On left, sits in pee, right, air. Both top fed MINIMUM morning & lunch, in to buckets soon.<br> 

View attachment before.JPG


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## sopappy

aaaaaarghhhhh worst trimming nightmare I've ever had, I don't think I even want to weigh this one hahaha but, on the bright side, I am growing stuff in there  and it's the nicest shake I've ever collected with so much flufff and smallish buds far too frustrating to trim. 

View attachment shake.JPG


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## sopappy

Hey Doc! What a great tip re the flu thing. I tried it and when I faced the output up, look what happened. 

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## sopappy

on the other hand, sorry to see these on my mainlining effort.... this is that epsom salt thing, right? magnesium deficiency, The leaves come off because of the LST, and the remaining ones look fine (so far) Will proper pH eventually fix this or do I go with Epsom salts? 

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## sopappy

Kraven said:


> Popping in to see......your in good hands pappy, Doc taught me everything I know, he is the one that talked my into my first hydro and helped me through it the whole way, listen to him he will have you growing like a pro.



Yep, great place, there's always someone willing to jump in and help out. 
That h2O2 took fingerprints off my right hand hahaha but I couldn't wash that pythium out so I transplanted them in to dirt and harvesting shortly.
But I'm off to a good start this time though.... thanks to you, Doc, THG, 13, wh, etc etc! a good bunch here


----------



## Kraven

yikes what happened pappy, dem leaves up top look a wee bit locked out?


----------



## sopappy

Kraven said:


> yikes what happened pappy, dem leaves up top look a wee bit locked out?



Locked out? That's pH, right? I was hoping it was the magnesium deficiency Epsom salt thing. I did have trouble with pH though so you're likely right. What can I do other than just try to correct the pH which I'm hoping I did today. (it's 5.7 now, dirt is 6.4)


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## Kraven

5.7  and 6.4 are dead on for pH. Dunno what happened on the leaves, need to see what nutes your using, may be a deficiency, it looks like a pH issue, it does not like rapid changes nor jumping around, it needs to be a slow and steady rise from 5.7 to 6.2 over a few days to a week depending on res size, hydro happens fast so damage is done very quickly.


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## sopappy

Kraven said:


> 5.7  and 6.4 are dead on for pH. Dunno what happened on the leaves, need to see what nutes your using, may be a deficiency, it looks like a pH issue, it does not like rapid changes nor jumping around, it needs to be a slow and steady rise from 5.7 to 6.2 over a few days to a week depending on res size, hydro happens fast so damage is done very quickly.



Only thing different is I'm using mycorrhizae this go on account of my pythium nightmare. 
I AM fiddling too much with the pH though, no ramp and got confused doing dirt and water at same time :-( 
lots of okay looking roots though, I'm hoping that brown is nutes or the Myco stuff, I'll take a picture.
you sure I can't just toss in some epsom salts?


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## sopappy

Here are the roots of my second try at buckets. I'm thinking this is such a lovely shade of golden brown, it can't possibly be pytheum, can it? It's too uniform throughout, pythium is freaking ugly too.... say it ain't so, it ain't pytheum, right? it ain't? 

View attachment rutz4.JPG


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## Kraven

Dunno pappy, is it a mg issue ? hard to tell till i can see the whole plant in natural light. Where are you getting the Epsom salts? are you running  a modified Lucas  where your using GH  micro/bloom 6/9ml gal w a tsp. of Epsom salts during the first 2 weeks of flower, if so that a pretty advanced feeding regimen. What has you convinced this is a mg issue its more than likely the pH fell out of range locking out the available mg, but i still don't know what your feeding and when,how much?


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## sopappy

Kraven said:


> Dunno pappy, is it a mg issue ? hard to tell till i can see the whole plant in natural light. Where are you getting the Epsom salts? are you running  a modified Lucas  where your using GH  micro/bloom 6/9ml gal w a tsp. of Epsom salts during the first 2 weeks of flower, if so that a pretty advanced feeding regimen. What has you convinced this is a mg issue its more than likely the pH fell out of range locking out the available mg, but i still don't know what your feeding and when,how much?



As long as you don't see pythium, I'm happy. 
I think you're right and it is a pH issue locking out MG, I haven't tried epsom, I'm hoping right pH fixes things.

I forgot the pictures of the plant. They both look pretty good as the leaves were removed a la mainlining. I do see small brown spots on one fan leaf.

Nobody has ever heard of my nutes, I might switch.
I also innoc'd roots with Myco stuff and added micro-nutrients, I might be heavy on the nutes too. Seems to me they're drinking but not eating more than the light. ppms don't change.
fun and games, thanks for having a look !!


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## Dr. Green Fang

> Nobody has ever heard of my nutes, I might switch.



Oh for **** sakes, there's your problem right there!!!!


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## Dr. Green Fang

> Nobody has ever heard of my nutes, I might switch.
> I also innoc'd roots with Myco stuff and added micro-nutrients, I might be heavy on the nutes too. Seems to me they're drinking but not eating more than the light. ppms don't change.
> fun and games, thanks for having a look !!



lol.. ok. Stop, buy good nute line (GH 3 part Flora / Dutch Master Gold / Technaflora / Jungle Juice) immediately, if not sooner. Soon as you get it, dump your res and reset with a real nute line. 

Do base nutes and epsom (or a quality cal-mag from, say, GH) and that's it! Don't mess with all the snake oils. Some Myco stuff is great when used properly. Let's get you on a K.I.S.S. method ("Keep It Simple Stupid")  

....nobody has heard of your nutes.. wow. I thought to ask you just about an hour ago trying to sort  your issue, but figured you were on GH.. I don't know why I just assumed. Fix that issue, don't mess around with a piss poor nutrient. :aok:


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## sopappy

I forgot how ugly they can look under LED. They look better under the T5 but I have no natural light nearby. Here's the two in buckets, I see some spots on one of them :-( 

View attachment onesie.JPG


View attachment twosee.JPG


View attachment spots.JPG


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## sopappy

I think the ones in dirt are improving, new growth looks promising 

View attachment new growth.JPG


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## Dr. Green Fang

Post #359 and #360 .. make sure you read them :aok:


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## Rosebud

:vap-Bong_smoker:  this is a nice journal. :vap-Bong_smoker:


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Post #359 and #360 .. make sure you read them :aok:



I'll have to find them first. :rofl: I have NO successs with the SEARCH here and you'd think it'd be in a drop down selection or go list thingie but nope, not that I can find. How do I get there?

HAH!
How do I search for something?
To quickly find a thread or post of interest anywhere on the bulletin board, click on the 'Search' link in the navigation bar at the top of most forum pages. Then, type in the keyword or phrase you wish to search for, and select either 'Show Threads' or 'Show Posts' to view the results. By selecting posts, you will be shown only the actual post in which the search word appears.


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## sopappy

Rosebud said:


> :vap-Bong_smoker:  this is a nice journal. :vap-Bong_smoker:


Hi Rose, nice of you to pop by, care for a cup of Thrive?


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Oh for **** sakes, there's your problem right there!!!!



hahaha no, my problem is me but I do see improvement, 
I don't really care about the dirt ones and it shows, crap earth, sloppy pH
but I am trying with the buckets though.

How do I find those post 359 and 360?


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## Dr. Green Fang

Here's an image that should help you :aok:


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Here's an image that should help you :aok:



hahaha, saw the pages but missed the post numbers, thanks


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Post #359 and #360 .. make sure you read them :aok:



Yup, I did and meant to PM you but I forgot. You should have something today but I still think it's my pH. Nutes are expensive, I have to use up these jugs :-(


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## sopappy

Hey PCDuck! I heard ya, here's the extra pump mostly lifted out of the water, cooled it an extra degree at least! 

View attachment docpump.JPG


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## sopappy

I have to pee every time I go in there now. 

View attachment toomuch.JPG


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## Kraven

Pappy I'm looking a very complicated set-up. Sure wish you would just do a dirt grow with me using the nutes I tell you, i know you can get this, your just making way to complicated for yourself. I really think you need to read this


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## sopappy

Kraven said:


> Pappy I'm looking a very complicated set-up. Sure wish you would just do a dirt grow with me using the nutes I tell you, i know you can get this, your just making way to complicated for yourself. I really think you need to read this



Ya, it's a mess right now. Original plan was just two RDWC systems, one under each LED. I finally have a decent looking pair in the buckets but pythium I pulled and threw into dirt, suddenly had luck with seeds, false starts in buckets went to dirt, now I have all these plants in dirt (and crummy dirt at that), hangers on in earth I have to finish.

I do like dirt though but I've put all this work in to the DWC and I want to try the mainlining thing with these two. My dates are all off, lost track of strains too, but I'm always checking your grow, I'll hitch along one of these times.

thanks for the reads, I'm on it.


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## Kraven

I just want you to successful bro, you have such a passion to grow, I just don't want you to get frustrated and loose that passion. You have to start off very simple, with one strain that is easy to grow. Then you need to do that for about three times so you get the feel of three start to finish grows with success and no problems. Then you will have a foundation, and you can build on that. Imho I think your just trying to use advanced techniques and you have not mastered the basics yet.


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## sopappy

Kraven said:


> I just want you to successful bro, you have such a passion to grow, I just don't want you to get frustrated and loose that passion. You have to start off very simple, with one strain that is easy to grow. Then you need to do that for about three times so you get the feel of three start to finish grows with success and no problems. Then you will have a foundation, and you can build on that. Imho I think your just trying to use advanced techniques and you have not mastered the basics yet.



I had a nice little routine going but I got tired of trying to get rid of the dirt after harvest. Buying it was awkward too. I investigated soiless, bombed with dirty co-co, came here for help, saw the monster in your bucket and the rest is history.


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## yarddog

Makes it look easy dont it, sopappy?   I start thinking about hydro, and quickly look the other way.   I like how simple dirt is


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## Dr. Green Fang

Here's my current single DWC plant under 1 LED, Sopappy.  

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72329

Not sure if you've seen that log. 

You'll get it. As long as you don't give up, you WILL get it! :aok:


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## sopappy

yarddog said:


> Makes it look easy dont it, sopappy?   I start thinking about hydro, and quickly look the other way.   I like how simple dirt is



Yup, he does. I looked at that little seedling in that big bucket of his first DWC and laughed my head off until I saw the result.
I must admit I do miss the transplanting; the watering, not so much.
I'd like to get the hang of this RDWC though so ain't giving up!

How do you discard your dirt?
I do the "great escape" thing and have the modified pants w/draw strings and take lots of walks.


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Here's my current single DWC plant under 1 LED, Sopappy.
> 
> http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72329
> 
> Not sure if you've seen that log.
> 
> You'll get it. As long as you don't give up, you WILL get it! :aok:



I started looking at that and saw the scrog and figured it wasn't for me but I'll take another look. 
thanks


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## yarddog

I can always use my old dirt around the house.


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## Kraven

Mine just goes into the compost pile, then back into my pots from time to time, don't really do organic, have done it and I just like what I'm doing now, it seems to work. Dirt gets used outside for the planters and the landscaping.


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## sopappy

Kraven said:


> Pappy I'm looking a very complicated set-up. Sure wish you would just do a dirt grow with me using the nutes I tell you, i know you can get this, your just making way to complicated for yourself. I really think you need to read this



okay, okay, my eyes glazed over once or twice
that alkalinity thing, not to be confused with alkaline? ya, okay
and the fertilizers, skimmed a bit there 
I don't have to spring for a water test, it's on the city's web site
I'll do up an excel sheet

Take a look at my roots, will ya? No slime, no snot, they don't smell at all, tips seem fine, some nice white in places but oh, all that dark brown
say it ain't so, joe,


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## Kraven

Sometimes the roots get stained by the nutes, my nutes just are light in color and did not stain my roots. Sounds like your going along good, green mojo brotha.


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## sopappy

I'm really, REALLY hoping this is what Mycorrhizal fungi looks like on roots. I had pythium in these buckets, does it bore in to the dam plastic? 

View attachment two.JPG


View attachment one.jpg


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## sopappy

yarddog said:


> I can always use my old dirt around the house.



I tried that but the perlite sticks out like a sore thumb, to me anyways.
I did do some patching with it once and the patches were lush hahaha
Ever have a seedling pop up?


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## sopappy

Here are two plants I am trying to mainline. I am very disappointed in all that stem.
I'm also not sure how to stop now hahaha. I 'm at 4 colas which is where I want to stop so instead of topping, I removed the two growth shoots. 

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## sopappy

I'm trying something different with my fans. I call it my Hushpuppy-o-matic.
I thought those PC fans were too weak but his idea re directing the (cooler) air up towards the light is tempting. I see the leaves rustling but that's about it.
I'm thinking this is plenty so I'm not using any other ventilation in the room (except exhaust) and they are on a 10 minute on/off cycle (just a guess)

I've since replaced both that blue and clear tote. Neither are HDPE #2 plastic, little triangle on the bottom.

10 minutes on, 10 minutes off is too long on for that wee fan.
When I checked on them at night I saw no drooping at all, looked wide awake to me
changed interval to 3' on, 7' off and I see the droop 

View attachment 100_1020.JPG


View attachment fan.JPG


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## Dr. Green Fang

Whoa whoa... easy with shooting your water up and out of the water like that. Your prone to have that hose change directions on you an flood you out or something. When I mentioned point a pump from the bottom up to the top.. I didn't mean add hose to it. Just the unit, bare, raw by itself, shooting up :aok: 

Careful there, Niagara Falls! hah


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## Grower13

showing some skills sopappy......... looking good.......:48:


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## sopappy

Dr. Green Fang said:


> Whoa whoa... easy with shooting your water up and out of the water like that. Your prone to have that hose change directions on you an flood you out or something. When I mentioned point a pump from the bottom up to the top.. I didn't mean add hose to it. Just the unit, bare, raw by itself, shooting up :aok:
> 
> Careful there, Niagara Falls! hah



I just wanted to see if anybody was paying attention.
It's actually outside the room, in laundry room with a floor drain.
Babbling brook sound will wear off and I'll pluck that hose hahaha
I did do it your m a t u r e way in the rez

I'm back to doing the waterfall hose again, Doc. I just read (uh oh) that unless the water actually breaks the surface, there is no new oxygen introduced, just the oxygen that was already in the water moved around. Go figure. 
I just like the bubbling sound.


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## sopappy

Grower13 said:


> showing some skills sopappy......... looking good.......:48:



I already want another crack at it, too leggy, but they're still alive


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## sopappy

After final trim, now in day 2 of flower
2 plants, 4 colas each
and lots of stem :-( 

View attachment 100_1030.JPG


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## sopappy

Weehoo I got a ramp going BUT IT'S GOING THE WRONG WAY

5.6 690 drinking 1/2 qt ea
5.5 690 drinking 1/2 qt ea
5.4 690 drinking 1 qt ea and then boom
5.3 630 and now they're eating too
but I topped up with same nuted water and ppms are back up, not sure if they're eating but they are drinking (and growing hahaha) 

they look bigger and pretty happy too, now what?
Next batch at half the ppms and 5.5 again or do I start at the other end now at 6.5 (???)


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## sopappy

not so fast... they are NOT eating at 600 ppm, they're only drinking. About half quart each every 12 hours.
I'm thinking my nutes suck so I did some window shopping and picked up a bottle of 
GH FloraNova One part BLOOM 4 - 8 - 7 
(I'm sorry THG, I didn't recognize anything else in there, if you can sub...)

I'd rather not experiment with this stuff at 35 bucks a quart....
If anybody's using it, please share your dosages 
I'm going to trying using this in VEG as well.

I let my water sit overnight then I add 1ml to every 4L of H2O2 (29%)
and let it sit overnight again before using to save my Myco from a horrible death 


See anything dumb and I'd appreciate being straightened out -thanks!


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