# Topping question



## joegrow22

Hey guys, 
When is the optimal/earliest time to top a plant?


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## Mutt

I try to avoid any high stress until after week 4 I just use LST. Then I'll top after week 4.


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## Stoney Bud

Ahhhhh, this is a trick question!

It has two different answers.

Mutt is totally correct in what he says, as long as it pertains to a plant grown from seed.

If your plant is grown from a cutting, then as a clone of the host plant, it will have the same growth characteristics as the host plant had.

If you take a cutting from a plant that has not reached it's sexual maturity, and has not developed alternating nodes, then the clone will be at that same stage of growth. It will develop the same number of nodes as the host plant until alternating nodes appear on both. The rooting time will delay the cuttings development until new growth appears.

However, if you use a cutting from a sexually mature plant, the cloned plant will also be sexually mature as soon as it's developed roots. It's first set of nodes will alternate.

This plant, you can top as soon as it's rooted and has new growth to top.


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## night501

wow i did not know that.
thats kinda cool.


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## joegrow22

thanks stoney and mutt!


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## richy.b

What about the first node? Or should I wait a few more days and top the second node? Just know that my first set of leaves after the water leaves only developed half way, but the rest looks great. Well, that first node anyway. I should wait right guys?  By the way I'm new here. First plant also! 
                                                    Thanks,
                                                           Richy


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## shadow1075

i top when the plant is about 18inches tall and they finish around 3 feet or more . but you have to know your strain normally they grow twice there height by the end


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## Nova

Ive done one grow before and kinda just let the plant do its thing, no topping or LST. However, id like a little more explananation on what topping is and what LST. The exact technique used to do the procedures, should they been done in flower or in veg, should they mature before doing some topping/lst? Also, i have noticed alot of talk 'pinching'. What exactly is pinching, how is it dont, when should it be done, should it be done flower or veg and about how long should you wait before you do the first pinch?

I know these 3 techniques are used to increase yield but also used to control height, just curious as how to employ the techniques without killing my plants!


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## Stoney Bud

Nova said:
			
		

> Ive done one grow before and kinda just let the plant do its thing, no topping or LST. However, id like a little more explananation on what topping is and what LST. The exact technique used to do the procedures, should they been done in flower or in veg, should they mature before doing some topping/lst? Also, i have noticed alot of talk 'pinching'. What exactly is pinching, how is it dont, when should it be done, should it be done flower or veg and about how long should you wait before you do the first pinch?
> 
> I know these 3 techniques are used to increase yield but also used to control height, just curious as how to employ the techniques without killing my plants!


 
Hello Nova,

Topping and Pinching accomplish the same thing, two different ways.

LST is something that uses the same plant hormone, but for a different reason, (sort of).

MJ has a hormone that it sends the most of to the tallest branch tip on the plant. It also sends a lesser amount of this hormone to the tallest part of each branch on the plant.

This hormone makes the tallest branch the "Primary" branch on the plant. It's where the largest bud on the plant will grow and is also the fastest growing branch on the plant.

The plant can be "fooled" into sending the most of this hormone to a different branch by simply MAKING another branch the tallest. This is what LST does.

With LST, you gently bend the primary, (tallest), branch over, or any other branch, and secure it so that it is now NOT the tallest branch. You have to do this in several days, using very small gentle moves until you arrive at it's new elevation. Then, you use a twist tie or string to secure it in it's bend.

Whatever branch is now the tallest branch will have the most "tallest growth" hormone sent to it by the plant.

LST also accomplishes something else.

The branch that you bend over can be tied so that the top of the branch is lower than the rest of the same branch. This will cause the side stems on that branch to start growing directly up in competition to be the tallest on that particular branch.

Many growers use this method to help fill a grow room to it's fullest capacity. If left alone, MJ is a plant that with some strains can reach 20+ feet in height. If you put another plant, just like it, next to it, and use LST on it, then  that plant will be shorter, but bushier. The end harvest will be identical in weight. The plant without LST will have fewer, larger buds that add up to the same weight as the LST'd plant with it's multitude of smaller buds.

However, inside a grow room, height is usually a concern.

My grow room allows only 5 feet of plant growth space after all the other considerations are subtracted. The space between the ceiling and the light, the height of the light itself and the space between the light and the plants. Also the height of the growing chambers or pots.

I have to either top each plant to make it stay within this height limit, or I can use LST to spread the plant out in the direction I wish it to grow.

This will enable me to fill every space in my grow room with buds. The plant won't have enough height space to reach it's potential of maximum bud growth. I use LST to move it lower and fill the room. This will cause a dramatic increase in harvested bud because the plant has more tips and the plant fills all the previously empty places in the grow room. I have taken each branch and turned it into many by allowing the side branches to grow with accelerated growth due to the additional growth hormone that the plant gives them due to my bending over the tallest part of the branch so that it's now NOT the tallest part of that particular branch.

Topping is a different method to get to the same point.

When you top a plant by either cutting or pinching off a tip, or you can only crush the tips stem, then the plant will grow TWO stems from each point that you've caused harm to. This minor harm is sent a "healing" hormone by the plant and will grow very slowly until it's healed. If cut, it will be covered by a "scab" made by the plant. If crushed, it will slowly heal and the plant will make a "knee", or thicker point exactly where you crushed it. Both crushing and cutting will make the TWO stems grow from the same place where this injury has happened.

If you start topping a plant when it's just out of it's seedling stage, you can also fill a grow room much better than leaving it with it's natural growth.

By combining LST and topping, an inside grower can maximize the amount of bud per/sq ft of the grow room.

Another method of arriving at this end result is by growing single branch plants. This is much faster because the plant hardly slows down.

As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola.

The problem with this type of grow is that most police use the NUMBER of plants against you. Maximizing your grow area this way will cause the penalty to be more severe if you're busted.

There are additional hormones that can be used when using a single branch grow that will slow plant height and increase bud size. This will allow more massive bud growth on those single buds that require them to be supported to prevent bending over and breaking.

If you live in an area that plant count is a consideration, I would suggest that you use ONE plant and maximize the LST and topping to fill your grow space.

I've filled a 5 foot by 5 foot room with one plant and harvested a little more than a cured pound from it. If I had 20 plants in the same space, I would have harvested the same amount of weed, just faster.

Each time you top a plant, it slows it's growth until the cut part is healed and THEN it sends the growth hormone to the new TWO stems that grow from the cut spot.

Keep in mind that LST, topping and crushing or pinching can only be done in the VEGETATIVE cycle of the plant. Once it's flowering, you shouldn't do any of them because it will detract from flower growth.

I tried to cover as much as possible, but I have no doubt that I missed telling you something. Post anything that isn't clear to you, and either me or someone else will fill in the gaps.

Good luck to you!!!


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## Runbyhemp

> As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola.



or .... grow 12/12 from seed


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## Nova

Thank you Stoney Bud! Those were the best explanations i have read yet! I dont have a gigantic grow space for flowering, 8ft long, 7ft wide, and 9ft high. Going to grow 3-4 plants in there with (2) 400w HPS. should be enought light? I have the room and floor completely sterile and covered with 2mil mylar, to enchance the light...sound about right for 2 northern lights and 2 white widows?


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## Stoney Bud

Nova said:
			
		

> Thank you Stoney Bud! Those were the best explanations i have read yet! I dont have a gigantic grow space for flowering, 8ft long, 7ft wide, and 9ft high. Going to grow 3-4 plants in there with (2) 400w HPS. should be enought light? I have the room and floor completely sterile and covered with 2mil mylar, to enchance the light...sound about right for 2 northern lights and 2 white widows?


 
Hay Nova, the amount of light needed is dependant on the square footage of your grow area.

You need a MINIMUM of 3,000 lumens per/sq ft.

5,000 lumens per/sq ft is optimum.

Your light has a known lumen rate. If you go to the manufacturers website, you can find it.

It's also on the box it came in.

Calculate the square footage of your grow area and then apply some math to figure out your lumens per/sq ft. for your current light.

This is the math your teacher told you that you would need later...


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## Nova

Looks like i am running at about 110,000 total lumens, each light covering a 3x4 area. So i am running very close to 5,000 lumens per sq foot. Actually it is 4983 lumens per sq. foot. I am using 2 HPS bulbs. both rated at 400w. I plan on doing some major LST on my mother plants, really wanted to get one of those plant cages, the kind you use for tomatos. And slowly just grow it around the entire cage, and it there is no more cage left. Sound like too much? i also planned on the cage for providing some structural integrity, taking on some of the plants weight when i do go to flower her...


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## Stoney Bud

Nova said:
			
		

> Looks like i am running at about 110,000 total lumens, each light covering a 3x4 area. So i am running very close to 5,000 lumens per sq foot. Actually it is 4983 lumens per sq. foot. I am using 2 HPS bulbs. both rated at 400w. I plan on doing some major LST on my mother plants, really wanted to get one of those plant cages, the kind you use for tomatos. And slowly just grow it around the entire cage, and it there is no more cage left. Sound like too much? i also planned on the cage for providing some structural integrity, taking on some of the plants weight when i do go to flower her...


 
You have perfect lighting. Congrats.

I've thought about the tomato cages as well. I've just never got them and tried them. I'll watch your experiment with interest!

Good luck to you!


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## Nova

Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> You have perfect lighting. Congrats.
> 
> I've thought about the tomato cages as well. I've just never got them and tried them. I'll watch your experiment with interest!
> 
> Good luck to you!


 
Well, before i even knew what LST is/was, i had planned on using the cages. I really hope to maximize yields using the cages, having the plant twine itself around the entire cage very closely. Its gonna take some work and time, but i figure while im busy testing this out i can clone it out and test for sex, then if its female, clone a few plants and grow them without cages, and then after the mother has been harvested, compare actual yield. 

Should be interesting enough, and simple! Just requires work and dedication. We'll see.....look for my grown journal!


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## Pot Belly

Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> Keep in mind that LST, topping and crushing or pinching can only be done in the VEGETATIVE cycle of the plant. Once it's flowering, you shouldn't do any of them because it will detract from flower growth.


 
Stoney - that was a fantastic read.......... Thanks!!!!!!!!

*Once it is flowering, do not LST? Leave it alone?*

*Is it possible that continued LST while in flower keeps allowing the "growth hormone" to continue in the plant?* 

I have not been able to stop the growth of my plants while flowering.:hairpull: I have attributed it to nutes issues as well and have tossed MG out in the yard where it belongs. I will be currently using Fox Farm BB, TB and OF soil to solve nute issues while in flower.

Also had 3 plants in 3 sq ft space. Overcrouding causes plant growth hormone to "compete" for space, I bet. I have since reduced my flower box to one plant. I am at 6,300 lumens per sq ft.

Thanks for any further input or insight on this issue.


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## Stoney Bud

Stoney - that was a fantastic read.......... Thanks!!!!!!!!

*You're very welcome. That's what this place is all about. One member helping many.*

*Once it is flowering, do not LST? Leave it alone?*

*Yes. If you plan your grow properly, your plants should harvest at the topmost height allowed by your area. Planning ahead, using LST or topping, and timing your flowering so as to stay within your area restrictions are all parts of learning to grow properly. LST should be unnecessary during flowering and yes, it will alter the plants flowering cycle and displace hormones and plant energy by using them for things other than flowering.*

*Is it possible that continued LST while in flower keeps allowing the "growth hormone" to continue in the plant?* 

*It doesn't work that way. A plant uses every single bit of energy that it receives and creates to grow as well as possible with procreation being the "prime directive" in regards to how it grows. By using LST during the flowering cycle, you've made the plant split it's resources into several paths. The tiny fractures created while using LST will take some of the plants energy to heal the wounds. The growth hormones used to re-direct accelerated growth on the "new" top growth will also detract from the total energy the plant has to use.*

*Your plants should be ready to flower with no more alterations to their natural growth at that stage. Your buds will love you for it.*

I have not been able to stop the growth of my plants while flowering. I have attributed it to nutes issues as well and have tossed MG out in the yard where it belongs. I will be currently using Fox Farm BB, TB and OF soil to solve nute issues while in flower.

*Plants always have a growth spurt, usually twice, during the flowering cycle. This is normal and should also be used as criteria in the total grow formula you develop BEFORE growing a crop. That way, each time the plant arrives at a predetermined point within your plan, you expect it and have prepared for it.*

*You should calculate the height remaining for your plants at a vegetative height, and flower the plants when it's appropriate for that area.*

*I flower most of my grows at 18" average height during the vegetative cycle. The first flowering spurt takes them to 36" and the second to almost exactly 5 feet tall at harvest each time.*

*This maximizes my plants to the grow area in width, length and height while allowing them to grow to their very best.*

Also had 3 plants in 3 sq ft space. Overcrowding causes plant growth hormone to "compete" for space, I bet. I have since reduced my flower box to one plant. I am at 6,300 lumens per sq ft.

*Several factors come into play when plants are over-crowded. None of them are beneficial.*

Thanks for any further input or insight on this issue.

*You're always welcome. I love teaching others to grow their own weed. It keeps us all safer, healthier and with more of our hard earned money in our own pocket to use for bettering our lives.*

*Good luck to you!*


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## Pot Belly

:cry: It is a shame that these very informative "reports" from the pros get lost in the system.:confused2: 

In 20 days, the same question will be asked again, and this informative post will be unknown. So much deadwood is in the history for searches on this forum:rant: that it is very time exhaustive to locate a particular thread or subject matter. The poster of this valuable info gets tired of writing the same thing, etc...........

It gives me an idea for a suggestion for the future. Heading over to the suggestion box:bolt:


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## Mutt

This thread has been added to the growing resources.
click the link in my sig. 
Thanks stoney...PB is right when ya spend this much time on a reply...should be easily found.


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## hazewarrior

:aok: Stoney that was awsome! I always knew why I do those things but I never took the time to break it down like that. HEY that give me an idea..... someone in MP should write a growing book based on all the info in MP. It would be like a chronicals or something? :beatnik:


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## Pot Belly

hazewarrior said:
			
		

> :aok: Stoney that was awsome! I always knew why I do those things but I never took the time to break it down like that. HEY that give me an idea..... someone in MP should write a growing book based on all the info in MP. It would be like a chronicals or something? :beatnik:


 
Yes, Yes, that is also my idea.  More thoughts to come, but I have to go for now.:bolt:

PB


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## jefri

Topping plants is very stressful and should never be done (unless you want clones), Instead, try to bend them over when they are about 20cm tall and not too woody. This will give the same effect as topping at a young age without all the stress. If you are doing a good job you should end up with a dense shrub. Continue to bend over the tips every two weeks or so (depending on the rate of growth) and you can end up with a massive, not very tall plant. It is important that you do not top or bend them later than 2 weeks before to heading . You can bend them over so that they are almost flat when they are young and bendy, this give the best results.

In parts of Australia, you dont get into too much strife with the authorities if you only have a couple of plants, thus growers tend to have very few plants and grow them for a long time (up to two months) before blooming. These plants end up covering a huge area without being tall and if done properly give phenomenal yields. 

2 Layers of plastic netting are placed across the grow area the firss about 1 foot above the pots, the next about 2.5 - 3 ft above the pots. The first layer is used to keep the branches down, the second laye is used to hold up the giant heads when the try to fall over.

Good Luck, topping is bad.


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## Stoney Bud

jefri said:
			
		

> try to bend them over when they are about 20cm tall and not too woody. These plants end up covering a huge area without being tall and if done properly give phenomenal yields.


 
What you're describing is "LST". I described that method in my earlier post. LST can be an effective method, and topping can be an effective method.

If done properly, neither causes a bit of harm to the plant. Any method applied too harshly will cause harm. Topping should ALWAYS be used if it meets the end result you wish to have. It should be done in stages, not like you're trimming a hedge.

I'm not sure who told you topping was "bad" for a plant. After 40 years of growing, I can assure you that it isn't. It works just fine.

Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If your opinion is that it some way harms the plant, then that's good for your grow.


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## hazewarrior

I had this really good outdoor sativa that I topped at about 1' and the thing took off! It started to grow above our 8' wall. Someone told me to try and bend them down. At the time I knew nothing about LST, so what did I do?? I grabbed one of the tops and started bending it.... Yep..... SNAP!!! :doh: The stock split in half. Luckily I was able to wrap the stock and it did just fine.

Lessons learned I guess? :confused2:


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## jjsunderground

Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> Ahhhhh, this is a trick question!
> 
> It has two different answers.
> 
> Mutt is totally correct in what he says, as long as it pertains to a plant grown from seed.
> 
> If your plant is grown from a cutting, then as a clone of the host plant, it will have the same growth characteristics as the host plant had.
> 
> If you take a cutting from a plant that has not reached it's sexual maturity, and has not developed alternating nodes, then the clone will be at that same stage of growth. It will develop the same number of nodes as the host plant until alternating nodes appear on both. The rooting time will delay the cuttings development until new growth appears.
> 
> However, if you use a cutting from a sexually mature plant, the cloned plant will also be sexually mature as soon as it's developed roots. It's first set of nodes will alternate.
> 
> This plant, you can top as soon as it's rooted and has new growth to top.



well said man


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## ktownlegend

yea no to be all snappy with an attitude or nething but we've all established lots of different ways to increase yields, control grows, heights, shapes, 





> _Original Posted by : *Stoney Bud*_What you're describing is "LST". I described that method in my earlier post. LST can be an effective method, and topping can be an effective method.
> 
> If done properly, neither causes a bit of harm to the plant. Any method applied too harshly will cause harm. Topping should ALWAYS be used if it meets the end result you wish to have. It should be done in stages, not like you're trimming a hedge.
> 
> I'm not sure who told you topping was "bad" for a plant. After 40 years of growing, I can assure you that it isn't. It works just fine.
> 
> Of course, everyone is entitled to an opinion. If your opinion is that it some way harms the plant, then that's good for your grow


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## FizGig

I have an idea to share with you all, that I've found to be WAY less involved than tieing down MJ branches for LST. (TBH, I'm still in my 1st yr. of indoor-growing and still don't know how you tie them down! - Lots of experimenting going on here.)...Anyways, so this is what I decided to do instead: I just use a bent paperclip (or wire, X-mas ornament hooks are great, too) and add washers for weight on one end of the "hook". Place the top-end of the hook according to where you want the stress on the branch. - They are easy to move as the plant grows and you need to redistibute the angle/weight, and same goes for removing/adding weight with extra washers (or ones of varying weights). HTH.


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## md.apothecary

Ahhhahaha I almost pooped my pants. :holysheep:

"Topping is stressful and should never be done"!??!

Whomever believes that must strictly grow from seed only and/or know nothing about propagation of MJ plants and cloning. Topping is no different than making clones. 

BTW, the paper clip idea is widely used, however it is not a LS (low stress) way of training your plants. It can actually cause damage to the plant in the long run. Plants resisting against the weight can be cut by the item holding the weights. 

But... to each their own I guess.


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## smokencron

My Husband has read hundreds of posts like this and I just wanted to point out that this was not only infromative, but very well written.  Thank you for not only the growing tips but all the other advise about the pros and cons of each different method you suggest.



			
				Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> Hello Nova,
> 
> Topping and Pinching accomplish the same thing, two different ways.
> 
> LST is something that uses the same plant hormone, but for a different reason, (sort of).
> 
> MJ has a hormone that it sends the most of to the tallest branch tip on the plant. It also sends a lesser amount of this hormone to the tallest part of each branch on the plant.
> 
> This hormone makes the tallest branch the "Primary" branch on the plant. It's where the largest bud on the plant will grow and is also the fastest growing branch on the plant.
> 
> The plant can be "fooled" into sending the most of this hormone to a different branch by simply MAKING another branch the tallest. This is what LST does.
> 
> With LST, you gently bend the primary, (tallest), branch over, or any other branch, and secure it so that it is now NOT the tallest branch. You have to do this in several days, using very small gentle moves until you arrive at it's new elevation. Then, you use a twist tie or string to secure it in it's bend.
> 
> Whatever branch is now the tallest branch will have the most "tallest growth" hormone sent to it by the plant.
> 
> LST also accomplishes something else.
> 
> The branch that you bend over can be tied so that the top of the branch is lower than the rest of the same branch. This will cause the side stems on that branch to start growing directly up in competition to be the tallest on that particular branch.
> 
> Many growers use this method to help fill a grow room to it's fullest capacity. If left alone, MJ is a plant that with some strains can reach 20+ feet in height. If you put another plant, just like it, next to it, and use LST on it, then that plant will be shorter, but bushier. The end harvest will be identical in weight. The plant without LST will have fewer, larger buds that add up to the same weight as the LST'd plant with it's multitude of smaller buds.
> 
> However, inside a grow room, height is usually a concern.
> 
> My grow room allows only 5 feet of plant growth space after all the other considerations are subtracted. The space between the ceiling and the light, the height of the light itself and the space between the light and the plants. Also the height of the growing chambers or pots.
> 
> I have to either top each plant to make it stay within this height limit, or I can use LST to spread the plant out in the direction I wish it to grow.
> 
> This will enable me to fill every space in my grow room with buds. The plant won't have enough height space to reach it's potential of maximum bud growth. I use LST to move it lower and fill the room. This will cause a dramatic increase in harvested bud because the plant has more tips and the plant fills all the previously empty places in the grow room. I have taken each branch and turned it into many by allowing the side branches to grow with accelerated growth due to the additional growth hormone that the plant gives them due to my bending over the tallest part of the branch so that it's now NOT the tallest part of that particular branch.
> 
> Topping is a different method to get to the same point.
> 
> When you top a plant by either cutting or pinching off a tip, or you can only crush the tips stem, then the plant will grow TWO stems from each point that you've caused harm to. This minor harm is sent a "healing" hormone by the plant and will grow very slowly until it's healed. If cut, it will be covered by a "scab" made by the plant. If crushed, it will slowly heal and the plant will make a "knee", or thicker point exactly where you crushed it. Both crushing and cutting will make the TWO stems grow from the same place where this injury has happened.
> 
> If you start topping a plant when it's just out of it's seedling stage, you can also fill a grow room much better than leaving it with it's natural growth.
> 
> By combining LST and topping, an inside grower can maximize the amount of bud per/sq ft of the grow room.
> 
> Another method of arriving at this end result is by growing single branch plants. This is much faster because the plant hardly slows down.
> 
> As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola.
> 
> The problem with this type of grow is that most police use the NUMBER of plants against you. Maximizing your grow area this way will cause the penalty to be more severe if you're busted.
> 
> There are additional hormones that can be used when using a single branch grow that will slow plant height and increase bud size. This will allow more massive bud growth on those single buds that require them to be supported to prevent bending over and breaking.
> 
> If you live in an area that plant count is a consideration, I would suggest that you use ONE plant and maximize the LST and topping to fill your grow space.
> 
> I've filled a 5 foot by 5 foot room with one plant and harvested a little more than a cured pound from it. If I had 20 plants in the same space, I would have harvested the same amount of weed, just faster.
> 
> Each time you top a plant, it slows it's growth until the cut part is healed and THEN it sends the growth hormone to the new TWO stems that grow from the cut spot.
> 
> Keep in mind that LST, topping and crushing or pinching can only be done in the VEGETATIVE cycle of the plant. Once it's flowering, you shouldn't do any of them because it will detract from flower growth.
> 
> I tried to cover as much as possible, but I have no doubt that I missed telling you something. Post anything that isn't clear to you, and either me or someone else will fill in the gaps.
> 
> Good luck to you!!!


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## lyfr

FizGig said:
			
		

> : I just use a bent paperclip and add washers for weight on one end of the "hook". Place the top-end of the hook according to where you want the stress on the branch.  HTH.


 i love it...i use fishing weights and garbage ties the same way. seems too work great for me.


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## thc is good for me

jefri said:
			
		

> Topping plants is very stressful and should never be done (unless you want clones), Instead, try to bend them over when they are about 20cm tall and not too woody. This will give the same effect as topping at a young age without all the stress.
> 
> Good Luck, topping is bad.


 
Do not listen to him he knows not what he speaks


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## trillions of atoms

well i dont top, it slows growth ALOT and decreases GPW. if time isnt in the factor its fine but to someone on a schedule it nedds not be done. i dont think you can say it should _never_  br done but indoors it isnt needed unless a novice has simply run out of room completely. if you need to train to tame your plants it is sugguested to use methods like LST. SC. SCROG and even low-no veg, short flowering clones or seeds for yeild using SOG. some ppl combine methods.

i dont usually cut on my babies at all unless im cloning or lolipopping older  plants.

i agree and disagree, but its really preferance for everything anyway, as its all a matter of opinion in the end.


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## zipflip

Runbyhemp said:
			
		

> or .... grow 12/12 from seed


 
grow 12/12 from seed...???? u mean start and keep lights on a 12/12 schedule from the time they germed til time of harvest givin u a massive primaryt cola thus also givin u more space for more plants....?


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## cdmharley

Stoney... lovely thread there mate.. im into day 11 of my chesse cuttings now.. on a wilma dripper.. 10 pot system. canna terra pro soil, hydro-clay in the bottom of pots.. 1st week no nutes just PH was 5.7 let it go to 6.3 after reading a bit more.. day 7 changed the res added Voodoo. Sensi AB grow to ec 0.8... but lowered ec now just in case of over fert..
i started the LST but two babies snapped!!! so ill use the strings to tie when i next check on them.. the 1st one snapped but its fine, the side branches are reaching towards the lights (2x 600 watt HPS growlux by the way, new bulbs)
they are doing really well nice and green there was a bit of heat stress but it seems better.. the 1 that snapped off completely will it be ok??? it will be like its topped???
many thanks.
CDMH. ill get pics asap!!! thanks.


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## stevetosh

Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> Hello Nova,
> 
> Topping and Pinching accomplish the same thing, two different ways.
> 
> LST is something that uses the same plant hormone, but for a different reason, (sort of).
> 
> MJ has a hormone that it sends the most of to the tallest branch tip on the plant. It also sends a lesser amount of this hormone to the tallest part of each branch on the plant.
> 
> This hormone makes the tallest branch the "Primary" branch on the plant. It's where the largest bud on the plant will grow and is also the fastest growing branch on the plant.
> 
> The plant can be "fooled" into sending the most of this hormone to a different branch by simply MAKING another branch the tallest. This is what LST does.
> 
> With LST, you gently bend the primary, (tallest), branch over, or any other branch, and secure it so that it is now NOT the tallest branch. You have to do this in several days, using very small gentle moves until you arrive at it's new elevation. Then, you use a twist tie or string to secure it in it's bend.
> 
> Whatever branch is now the tallest branch will have the most "tallest growth" hormone sent to it by the plant.
> 
> LST also accomplishes something else.
> 
> The branch that you bend over can be tied so that the top of the branch is lower than the rest of the same branch. This will cause the side stems on that branch to start growing directly up in competition to be the tallest on that particular branch.
> 
> Many growers use this method to help fill a grow room to it's fullest capacity. If left alone, MJ is a plant that with some strains can reach 20+ feet in height. If you put another plant, just like it, next to it, and use LST on it, then that plant will be shorter, but bushier. The end harvest will be identical in weight. The plant without LST will have fewer, larger buds that add up to the same weight as the LST'd plant with it's multitude of smaller buds.
> 
> However, inside a grow room, height is usually a concern.
> 
> My grow room allows only 5 feet of plant growth space after all the other considerations are subtracted. The space between the ceiling and the light, the height of the light itself and the space between the light and the plants. Also the height of the growing chambers or pots.
> 
> I have to either top each plant to make it stay within this height limit, or I can use LST to spread the plant out in the direction I wish it to grow.
> 
> This will enable me to fill every space in my grow room with buds. The plant won't have enough height space to reach it's potential of maximum bud growth. I use LST to move it lower and fill the room. This will cause a dramatic increase in harvested bud because the plant has more tips and the plant fills all the previously empty places in the grow room. I have taken each branch and turned it into many by allowing the side branches to grow with accelerated growth due to the additional growth hormone that the plant gives them due to my bending over the tallest part of the branch so that it's now NOT the tallest part of that particular branch.
> 
> Topping is a different method to get to the same point.
> 
> When you top a plant by either cutting or pinching off a tip, or you can only crush the tips stem, then the plant will grow TWO stems from each point that you've caused harm to. This minor harm is sent a "healing" hormone by the plant and will grow very slowly until it's healed. If cut, it will be covered by a "scab" made by the plant. If crushed, it will slowly heal and the plant will make a "knee", or thicker point exactly where you crushed it. Both crushing and cutting will make the TWO stems grow from the same place where this injury has happened.
> 
> If you start topping a plant when it's just out of it's seedling stage, you can also fill a grow room much better than leaving it with it's natural growth.
> 
> By combining LST and topping, an inside grower can maximize the amount of bud per/sq ft of the grow room.
> 
> Another method of arriving at this end result is by growing single branch plants. This is much faster because the plant hardly slows down.
> 
> As the plant grows, you remove ALL but the primary center branch. This will allow you to have many more plants in the same space. Each will have one massive primary cola.
> 
> The problem with this type of grow is that most police use the NUMBER of plants against you. Maximizing your grow area this way will cause the penalty to be more severe if you're busted.
> 
> There are additional hormones that can be used when using a single branch grow that will slow plant height and increase bud size. This will allow more massive bud growth on those single buds that require them to be supported to prevent bending over and breaking.
> 
> If you live in an area that plant count is a consideration, I would suggest that you use ONE plant and maximize the LST and topping to fill your grow space.
> 
> I've filled a 5 foot by 5 foot room with one plant and harvested a little more than a cured pound from it. If I had 20 plants in the same space, I would have harvested the same amount of weed, just faster.
> 
> Each time you top a plant, it slows it's growth until the cut part is healed and THEN it sends the growth hormone to the new TWO stems that grow from the cut spot.
> 
> Keep in mind that LST, topping and crushing or pinching can only be done in the VEGETATIVE cycle of the plant. Once it's flowering, you shouldn't do any of them because it will detract from flower growth.
> 
> I tried to cover as much as possible, but I have no doubt that I missed telling you something. Post anything that isn't clear to you, and either me or someone else will fill in the gaps.
> 
> Good luck to you!!!


Will do!


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## cutthoatish420

does anyone have a step by step link wit pictures on how to top your plant????????????????? thanx


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## robbiegy2k

hi,

Great thread, love how the growing community like to debate such things as topping 'n other techniques as it shows we're all striving for perfection. As many have said everyone has their own ways and even the best methods may not work as well from strain to strain.

Im interested in this single branch method as im doing a grow where plant numbers isn't a problem (have a friend who supplying as many clones as I need) so im thinking I might as well just cram in as many 2 gal pots as I can (already dontated) and as im using x amount of 600w bulbs (I have enough and think I hit 5k+ lumens per sq ft) look to grow them maybe 2-3ft max perhaps using this single branch method. I've always topped and always been pretty happy with results but they do tend to bush out a bit. Im wondering how much might be lost by doing single cola's? I did try a few singles in the past and while the cola was a fair bit bigger, I'd say yield wise topping gave me slightly more per plant so thats why i'd planned to top on this grow. 

As thinking has it though, I guess if I can fit more single cola plants in there and they don't have to jostle for space, maybe I can get the same yield as using less (topped) plants. 

hmm thoughts anyone? I guess if certain factors are right (light/co2/genetics) then whichever way it's done you get roughly the same yield. Annoying thing is height isn't a problem at all (15ft+) but as im using 600w's (worried about heat from 1000w'ers) I don't want to grow them too high - I grew 4 plants some time ago with a 400w hps they finished at about 3 to 3.5 foot tall and other than the top cola's all the lower bud sites were pityful - very loose/small buds (granted they were gypsy nirvana 'cheaper' seeds ) but my logic was that most of the energy went in to growing all the stems! so im a bit reluctant to grow them so tall.

Sorry for going slightly oT - guess im just looking for more opinons on single or topped plants when growroom size & plant numbers isn't an issue. 

p.s. im not looking to do a scrog or anything as I won't be able to visit the room as much as I'd like so trying to keep it simple.

Appreciate any suggestions.


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## surreptitious

Stoney Bud, thank you for an outstanding read.  I have a few questions for ya.  I'm a first time grower and I've got around 18 seedlings from seeds going right now in a hydroponics system.  My grow room is 150 cubic feet and drip tray is 4' x 4'.  I would like to get around 12 females plants out of this (wishful thinking lol), but obviously cannot grow 6' tall plants.  I was wondering if you suggest I try LST (being a newbie and all)?  I would like to fill up my space and based on your post I'm interested. It seems like an easiest enough concept. 

thanks again
surreptitious


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## fictitiousgrowr

Saw this thread and figured I'd add my two cents. I'm fortunate to have two rooms, the space and time to experiment so i often do. So anyway I had this mersh plant i didn't care for too much since i had also good seeds so i figured what the hell i'll mess with this one and see what happens. So I topped at node 5 or 6, then it split about four or five ways. I didn't have the space to flower it yet so then I LSTed it tying down all five branches thinking **** this thing is gonna be too big to flower if it streches too much. A couple weeks later I topped all five of those main branches. A couple weeks later I had maybe 15 or so tops that were pretty big in size. Finally I had room to put it in flower and this thing got huge! I've had plants as small as 7 grams finishing weight all the way up to one oz and looking to find ways to maximize and this seems to work well. I havn't cut it down yet but it looks like it is going to be a nice yield anyway. The down side is it did take a solid 2 months of vegging. I also plan on only cutting the top 2/3 off and revegging it which I have successfully done and always has a higher yield then the first time around. Can't wait to see what this one does the secong time around. Here you see the topped lst toped in the middle and some other younger ones for size comparison. Worth the time and effort, for a few extra weeks i bet this thing is more than double any of the others. BTW this one has been in flower for about 6 weeks and looks like it could go another 4.


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## legalize_freedom

It looks overfertilized...you may want to flush it.  This is an excellent thread, I wish Stoney would come back around!!!  He was a wealth of knowledge!


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## classic_rocker_287

hmm


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## fictitiousgrowr

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> It looks overfertilized...you may want to flush it.  This is an excellent thread, I wish Stoney would come back around!!!  He was a wealth of knowledge!



Out of curiosity, why do you say it is over fertilized? It probably is, I'm just wondering how you could tell? I did nute it quite a bit near the end and flushed it about 2 days before the picture was taken.


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## sopappy

robbiegy2k said:


> hi,
> 
> trimmed ----
> 
> Im interested in this single branch method




sheesh, 2009... are you still around these her parts, Robbie?
Were you successful with the single branch thing? I want to try that as well?
Did you stumble across any threads or further info?


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