# Calcium toxicity



## zem

Too much calcium in tap water needs to be accounted for when calculating your fertiliser mix while using hard water especially in hydroponic systems. I have had this problem for a while now, it shows up on most grows no matter what i did or so I thought. It looked a lot like calcium deficiency and when i research calcium toxicity, i find no real info, it seems as if it is not that common a problem. Well, my source water is 0.48 ec and half of that is supposedly calcium, the other half mostly sulphates some magnesium and chloride  etc.. 
I limited my usage of calcium nitrate to 1/4 strength and voila! I finally  found the source of my problem.
 Calcium nitrate is the most common fertiliser used in most commercial fertilisers and additives like calmag. So just a tip for hydroponic growers who use tap water or hard water, calculate the calcium in your fertiliser mix and add that to the calcium in your source water. Do the same with sulphates, make sure that the levels are acceptable, below 180ppm of calcium with 90 being   sufficient. If you are having strange white spots or patches, with gold and brown spots that also resemble nothing but Calcium deficiency and you cannot find clear reasons, it can be that you have too much Calcium, excess calcium seems to be a problem that is very much overlooked. I had to crack this one all by myself with trial and error, and reading the same symptoms with others and cornering it. I hope that this might help some growers who are searching for calcium toxicity and excess symptoms and cannot find any good info, a problem that i had for a while,
Cheers!


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## Hushpuppy

Zem I believe you are onto something there. I think I have been recently having that very problem with my veg plants. Then I remembered that I had added calmag to my medium as a precharge. I cut back on the calmag and they are doing better.


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## zem

Hey there HP  how are you doing? 
I have 240ppm water out of my tap, i assume there is around 120 Ca which is a lot of Ca but still not at a toxic level. when i go adding calcium nitrate at full strength, I am adding another 100ppm of Ca on top of that, and it is too hard to soften by topping since i am still topping with 120ppm Ca water.


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## Hushpuppy

Hey man, doing far better than the first half of this year. The bad thing with that situation of excess calcium is that it will build up on you over time unless your medium gets flushed well. (that is why I am such an advocate for top-feeding/hydro into coco coir, it flushes each time it feeds/waters)
You might be able to get away with just using some Epsom salt rather than calmag. The Epsom is all magnesium and another binder element.


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## zem

i have both magnesium sulfate and magnesium nitrate. i guess that with the calcium nitrate dose goin way down, i need the extra nitrate so magnesium nitrate comes in, and knowing that i have significant sulfate level in my source water.


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## Hushpuppy

Sounds logical to me


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## zem

Plants are generally liking the new recipe. But the original problem remains, and i got what i think are very good pics to describe it. You can see its beginning and its progression to golden spots. It has baffled me, I was so sure it was calcium toxicity that i got over excited, since i cannot find anything else that is out of range in my recipe. what is more baffling, is that i tried a side by side test with GH ferts, and they did not cause this at all. not that they grew plants problem free, but this specific issue is non existent when i use them. This eliminates the possibility of a contaminant in source water. I am currently trying something else, I noticed that calcium in GH ferts is supplied through the addition of CaO and not CaNo3 and I know that there is a difference in the types of calcium and how easily the plants uptake them, so I went ahead, and added around 90ppm of CaO liquid form. It does resemble severe calcium deficiency, cutting down on calcium nitrate did not help in that particular issue. 

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## Hushpuppy

That looks just like calcium deficiency. I doubt its bugs but it also looks like bug damage. Puzzling. Bwanabud had a similar issue with his grow. I think sometimes there are mediums and nutrient brands that just don't work well together, probably due to a chemical interaction between the 2 that locks up some of the elements. He had to change several things before he got straight.

I would try flushing them real good and then going back with nutes and small amount of calcium and see if that corrects it. It may take a while to see improvement though as that necrosis wont heal back, but hopefully it will stop it.


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## zem

HP I found another possible culprit in my recipe, High K. in my research it turned out that high K Mg or N can lock up Ca and K is more often high. Well in my recipe, I had about 5-4-10 NPK the formulas suggested by GH are much more balanced N/K ratios like 1/1.3. Anyway, I am back to adding caclium Nitrate and lowered the PPM to 1040. this makes 6.5/10 N/K ratio + fresh Ca. 
On the bright side, I am having great bud growth along with this calcium deficiency, and I did not mention to you the extent of what I am doing, I have 4 res's with 4 recipes, 1 GH, 1 classical hoagland base recipe, one high EC, and one "giving it my best" recipe, and that is the one with the most rust spots and the best bud growth. The one with the high EC is giving greener healthy plants, but smaller buds. The one with the classical hoagland base recipe, is giving medium sized buds bigger than that of higher EC, but I had to go out of the recipe just 20 days in when i began having more deficiencies. Finally the GH one is very green, was Mg deprived until i added extra, it has some great foolproof characteristics, that are great for vegging simply without having to do all the mixing, but compared to the level of control and bud size with DIY recipe, I am surely not going to switch to ready ferts for flowering. But having it as a control side by side is an amazing tool, to go more thoroughly into the research. The thing that I am trying to find out is how is it that I am not having any Ca deficiency with the GH formula even at much lower Ca in their recipe. I think that I nailed it now when I learned about the + ions in K and their ability to lock out Ca. I am optimistic again


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## zem

Hey there HP  :woohoo: I am happy here, plants are looking better, PH was set at 6 to encourage Ca uptake and today i can see obvious improvement. i am controlling the K deficiency in another res at 5.7 ph with ppm up to 1440 it seems k was absorbed fast but i am anticipating the Ca deficiency next but i am keeping space in my res for a sizeable topping with high Ca and up the ph a bit very soon. 
the GH ferts res is surprisingly very stable, i can barely find any tiny spot, like fake plants, however, they are not very eager to flower if you know what i mean. I think the high ammonia and N to K is the reason behind all that, and the reason behind the lack of any calcium deficiencies. Giving plants high N makes great foliage but little bud as we all know. + the level of Mg deprivation prior to me supplementing it with epsom, was killer. that is the plants would have died, not a deficiency, but a deprivation, and only adding mg made them look like plastic plants


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## Hushpuppy

It is definitely all about the chemistry. That is why I prefer to use a nute brand that doesn't have pH buffer. I think they do better with a fluxuating pH than with a stable pH. The GH nutes are very similar to mine except the GH has pH buffers that will hold it very stable over time. But I can watch my pH drift from 6.0-6.1 down to 5.5 and if I allow it, it will drop all the way down to around 4.3, and I can see significant water taken out without a jump in ppm. I adjust it back up at that point after adding straight water top up. But I also have to use calmag additive up to about week 6-7 of flower.


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## zem

I am puzzled again, as i was reviewing deficiency symptoms, i noticed that calcium deficiency normally shows on new growth first and this issue consistently starts on older growth first. The deficiencies that normally show on older growth are N,P,K,Mg, but it is only similar to Ca deficiency only on older leaves :huh:  EC around 2.2, plants looking happy, but the spots, i would give anything to know what this is. I don't know how much this helps, BUT, this issue is VERY VERY strain dependent, that is it affects some strains way more than others which are barely showing very slight symptoms.


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## zem

i also noticed that the rusting tends to develop towards the venial area rather than in between...???


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## zem

it is not Calcium deficiency, it is more likely a PK thing, very thorough analysis had me conclude that this is mostly K deficiency boosted primarily by high calcium. The Ca content in GH is so low, and yet no Ca deficiency. I am back to thinking that this is the reason, too much calcium limiting K uptake at the time when plants need it most. I gave them a boost of PK raised the ppm to the 1220 mark, crossing my fingers and hoping.


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## zem

So, further research and analysis done, I found what I believe is sodium toxicity, unless Mandala got it wrong, thids pic uploaded from their page on water http://www.mandalaseeds.com/Guides/Water-and-pH I have the exact same symptoms on one strain that is more fragile, and less pronounced on other sturdier strains. It begins from the veins rather than in between them. I analysed every chemical that i add and found the most probable culprits that are a low grade calcium nitrate and potassium nitrate that i had recently purchased. I went and got a good brand Yara Liva, changed my res, hoping to see that these spots are not spreading anymore. 

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## Hushpuppy

In hydro, you shouldn't have sodium toxicity unless you are using something that is high in sodium and then not flushing your system periodically. If your source water is from a city/town, then it may be softened with salt at the treatment plant.


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## WeedHopper

Reminds me of rust spots from salt on car bodies up north.


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## zem

made a nice observation today, the rust veins seem to be healing, unlike the rust spots which are dead. with all 4 reservoirs and the research at its peak, i can say that i found out interesting facts, like the fact that my calcium ratio was high along with tap water. also found out that mj will produce at much higher EC during flowering than i once thought, i have the best results with ec of 1400 and more, i am trying ramping it up to 1650 in 1 res, will see how that does. And the GH ferts are  giving me a good control res, where i can compare, and i can see that they use a lot more Ammonia and nitrogen altogether than recommended in fert mixes, but the high N seems to give the plants more ability to grow at lower EC, but also i can see that it promotes an elongated stretching period and more stretching altogether. I also have a 5th res for clones that are vegging, and the plants are loving that as well with a high ratio of ammonia/nitrate about 1/3 with no ill effects on the contrary, the "plastic plant" effect very prominent as i would like it in vegging


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## Hushpuppy

You keep experimenting on them, you will learn all sorts of interesting stuff about them.


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## zem

I am sure by now that my diy recipe is growing more bud than gh flora is, although gh is growing plants that are looking very nice, i can notice with my eyes the difference in size of the buds.


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## orangesunshine

pic #7---have you looked underside of those leaves with a magnifying glass for spider mite


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## zem

yeah there is no infestation of any sort in my plants im glad to say. Bud growth is great seeing a lot of improvement, they are liking the higher ec levels


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## zem

I thought to take a couple of pics from my GH fed plants, they look beautiful, like plastic plants, only real, but their bud development in less than i would expect. I also took a pic of my veg space i have the same plastic look, only there i want all this foliage and i did that with my diy recipe. i threw there a decorative plant named asparagus spragneri something, it was having hard time but it loved its new neighbours growing new shoots rapidly... ahhh it is always nice to add some green to a thread right? 

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## Hushpuppy

They look like they are doing much better. I use the 3part Jungle Juice which is similar to the GH Flora. I normally cut back the "grow" part over the first 3 weeks of flower until at the beginning of week 4, I cut off the grow and have bumped up the micro and bloom. I try to maintain an average of 1100-1200ppm for lighter feeding plants and up to 1400ppm for heavier feeding plants. If you are still giving them the grow part, it may be too much nitrogen at this point.


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## zem

HP I am using flora micro as my source of N no more flora grow at this point, i think that if i ever grow with them, i will raise the pk much earlier, but i think that i will get back to mixing my own which is the better way for me and i am using gh only for reference and comparison


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## zem

I have one res where I have been trying a lot of stuff, where i stressed the plants a lot, and the y griegas are just all purple now. What I am worried about, is that the purple has now reached the sweet leaves and progressing inwards to the buds, but the plant is at 65, I wanted to go to 75 breeder says 80-90, no way this plant is going to 90. I am considering chopping this one and releasing it from its misery at 65 days, it has dense nugs i do not want to compromise, yet i want the best effect out of them... also considering chopping it gradually. Improving its feeding has proven a failure no matter what i tried

What would you do? Thanks


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## zem

Theres a pic of the bud, the leaves are so dark now there is very little photosynthesis except from the sweet leaf which is in turn going purple. It is the effect of the cold, Y Griega reacts by going purple, only this one is by far more affected than the others in other res, where they can take a longer period before the purple reaches the buds. 

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## Hushpuppy

I would let them go to 70 days myself depending on the look of the trichomes. I would bet the purple leaves are still doing more photosynthesis than you think, as long as they are still living. Its the yellow/gold/brown colors that mean no more chlorophyll. Have you looked at the trichs at this point?


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## bwanabud

Hey Zem,
A frustrating battle of man against the "elements" ...been there done that for couple years, same problem you are having...slightly different plant reaction than yours but probably because of strain variations.

I took a slightly more aggressive approach through time, and would completely change my entire set-up...from media type, to nute mfg, to flushing regiments, to questioning my sanity....always with the same results, always starting at 4-5 weeks of flower, accelerating at 5-6 weeks. 

Starts as small golden/yellow spots on lower older leaves, sporadically located on med. dark healthy leafs...works it's way up the plants in a haphazard manner till it settles on the top canopy, then consumes the fan leafs leaving the sugar leaf alone....then limp to the finish line, swearing to conquer the beast next time 

My well water is 140ppm(.3ec), and 60-70ppm calcium according to the tester. I'm running Canna Pro coco, with House & Garden A+B base, with Epson and Drip-Clean...I'm now using ZERO CaMg additive. My base feed rates are 500-550 in veg, 750-900 in bud...that's after subtracting my water source. I also bump a small dose of KoolBloom starting at the 5th week, stopping at the 7th.

I run pressurized top feed Blumat drip systems on my rooms, separate rez's for veg/bud. I maintain 5.8-5.9ph in veg, and float to a stable 6.2 in bud. I never flush my coco, I don't have run-off. I keep my rez's at 60-65 F, with a cycled circulator pump...no air stones.

Gotta run, I'll stop back :48:


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## zem

HP I think that i will wait but it is a day by day thing to make up my mind, I am worried from the purple buds. trichomes were still mostly clear 3-4 days ago, i will check tonight


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## zem

bwanabud said:


> Hey Zem,
> A frustrating battle of man against the "elements" ...been there done that for couple years, same problem you are having...slightly different plant reaction than yours but probably because of strain variations.
> 
> I took a slightly more aggressive approach through time, and would completely change my entire set-up...from media type, to nute mfg, to flushing regiments, to questioning my sanity....always with the same results, always starting at 4-5 weeks of flower, accelerating at 5-6 weeks.
> 
> Starts as small golden/yellow spots on lower older leaves, sporadically located on med. dark healthy leafs...works it's way up the plants in a haphazard manner till it settles on the top canopy, then consumes the fan leafs leaving the sugar leaf alone....then limp to the finish line, swearing to conquer the beast next time
> 
> My well water is 140ppm(.3ec), and 60-70ppm calcium according to the tester. I'm running Canna Pro coco, with House & Garden A+B base, with Epson and Drip-Clean...I'm now using ZERO CaMg additive. My base feed rates are 500-550 in veg, 750-900 in bud...that's after subtracting my water source. I also bump a small dose of KoolBloom starting at the 5th week, stopping at the 7th.
> 
> I run pressurized top feed Blumat drip systems on my rooms, separate rez's for veg/bud. I maintain 5.8-5.9ph in veg, and float to a stable 6.2 in bud. I never flush my coco, I don't have run-off. I keep my rez's at 60-65 F, with a cycled circulator pump...no air stones.
> 
> Gotta run, I'll stop back :48:


bwanabud did you know the source of the problem? I came to different conclusions so far, my ph maintained at 5.5-5.8 ppm proving to be better at high levels in flowering up to 2000. I was finally able to see this issue beginning even in my GH ferts res. I am adding calcium oxide to see if it will do any good.


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## zem

checked the trichs again, i estimated it around 35% cloudy 65% clear, no amber whatsoever. this run has worn me down, learned so much in one intensive run, worth every minute and every effort


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## Grower13

which Micro GH are you using....... there's one for had water....... it has less calcium in it to start with........ are you adding any Epsom to your nutrient water?....... what is in your medium?


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## zem

Grower13 said:


> which Micro GH are you using....... there's one for had water....... it has less calcium in it to start with........ are you adding any Epsom to your nutrient water?....... what is in your medium?



Hey G13  I am using GH micro for hard water, and epsom salt is the only additive that i need apart from the ph-. However, I think that you got confused between the ongoing problem and the GH res. The problem is occurring in one of 4 different res's, that res has a diy mix of ferts with no GH in it. The GH res is looking good but the buds are a little bit smaller than the diy res's. I am making a side by side trial with different fert mixes, one of them is GH. I use growrocks flood and drain


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## Hushpuppy

One of the things that stands out to me in all of our grow situations is that while there is a variety of mediums, a variety of nutes, a variety of growing methods, a variety of other variables, not all of these will work together with ease. It seems like there are certain mediums that only work well with certain nute regimens/brands/diy, and some strains that like only a certain nute regimen that is subject to variation from atmospheric conditions and/or medium, and/or etc.

What I mean is you can take one strain and put plants in different mediums, give them exactly the same everything, and still have some variation to the growth success of the plants in the different mediums, either because the medium/nute interaction has changed some of the parameters such as pH, or because the medium and the water don't have a favorable interaction for that plant... etc.

The key for that is to decide on a set of variables(grow methods, medium, and nutes, and then only vary the nute regimen/brand to see if you find the right nute setup for that single set of variables. Only make 1-2 changes per grow run so that you can know which changes were good and which were bad. I prefer to change only one thing per grow until I decide that method/nute/medium is either good or bad.

Having the ability to do multiple plants in different setups/variables will give you the results quicker as you can do a different variable change for each one to see what works better. I just hope you can keep up with all of it. I used to keep a diary of everything I did from day to day but since I found my favorite methods and nutes/medium, I don't do as much experimentation. But I still try things sometimes to adjust for the different strains. I still try to keep notes on changes made.


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## Surfer Joe

Hushpuppy said:


> One of the things that stands out to me in all of our grow situations is that while there is a variety of mediums, a variety of nutes, a variety of growing methods, a variety of other variables, not all of these will work together with ease. It seems like there are certain mediums that only work well with certain nute regimens/brands/diy, and some strains that like only a certain nute regimen that is subject to variation from atmospheric conditions and/or medium, and/or etc.
> 
> What I mean is you can take one strain and put plants in different mediums, give them exactly the same everything, and still have some variation to the growth success of the plants in the different mediums,



I think that the genetic variation among all the modern marijuana strains is likely to cause many of the anomalies that growers get among plants as well.
I have 5 seeds of the same strain, in the same soil, matched to the same brand soil nutes, receiving the same growing conditions, and still they manage to go their own way. Some get issues and some don't and some are stretching like heck and some aren't.
I've gotten more consistency from growing a variety of seeds.


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## Hushpuppy

The only way to conquer that genetic variation is to get F3 or higher breeding. This rebreeding that produces the F2-5 offspring really narrows down the genetic profile so that there is less genetic variation. This produces a more stable phenotype among all the seeds. The bad thing is that this can often have hidden weaknesses in the phenotype such as susceptibility to disease or fungus. Or in some strains that I am seeing, the ability to clone becomes more difficult. I wonder if that is intentional by some breeders.


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## zem

Hushpuppy said:


> The only way to conquer that genetic variation is to get F3 or higher breeding. This rebreeding that produces the F2-5 offspring really narrows down the genetic profile so that there is less genetic variation. This produces a more stable phenotype among all the seeds. The bad thing is that this can often have hidden weaknesses in the phenotype such as susceptibility to disease or fungus. Or in some strains that I am seeing, the ability to clone becomes more difficult. I wonder if that is intentional by some breeders.



I think that you mean the other way round, F1 seeds are the most stable and the variation becomes more as you progress to F2,3,4 and 5. Actually, one can only find F1 and F2 in the market, F3 and more are not worth buying.


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## Surfer Joe

Hushpuppy said:


> The only way to conquer that genetic variation is to get F3 or higher breeding. This rebreeding that produces the F2-5 offspring really narrows down the genetic profile so that there is less genetic variation. This produces a more stable phenotype among all the seeds. The bad thing is that this can often have hidden weaknesses in the phenotype such as susceptibility to disease or fungus. Or in some strains that I am seeing, the ability to clone becomes more difficult. I wonder if that is intentional by some breeders.



Lol...Sounds like something Monsanto would try.
But I remember when my brother used to breed dogs and had some champion irish setters and they kept developing all sorts of genetic defects from overbreeding and unintended consequences.


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## zem

I have the Y Griega at day 72 the trichomes are still clear like 90%, I can barely trace a trich that is going cloudy, I will have to wait one more week, my main concern, is the increasing persisting cold that only goes worse as we advance in winter.


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## zem

Hushpuppy said:


> I would let them go to 70 days myself depending on the look of the trichomes. I would bet the purple leaves are still doing more photosynthesis than you think, as long as they are still living. Its the yellow/gold/brown colors that mean no more chlorophyll. Have you looked at the trichs at this point?


Hey Hush  They are taking it surprisingly well at 77 days in, I will wait till 80-85 I am surprised st how well they went on after they had rusted all the fan leaves, aside from the purple that seems to be turning back to green in some leaves, the buds kept developing  last thing I gave them was a dose of Calcium Oxide a week ago, they seem to have liked it


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## Hushpuppy

That's good. What are the trichs looking like?


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## zem

the trichs are still more clear than cloudy, about 70/30 ratio, I think the breeder is right after all. The strain is awesome, I guess I will lay it aside for a while and stick to faster finishers for a while


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## DirtyDiana

Good reading. I've had the same "rust" spots myself, among other issues in aeroponics.  You start researching & seems like........ oh, it's this, then oh, wait it's this, then-- no, if looks just like this, etc! I've spent hours researching!    Will drive one totally insane!


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## Hushpuppy

I've never grown long flowering plants. 10 weeks is all I can stand


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## zem

yeah I am counting day 84 today, I will harvest tomorrow, maybe even go longer on one plant till day 90, it is not practical to wait 90 days indoor, but the strain is magnificent, a one time thing for indoors, if i had a chance i would grow it into a tree outdoors


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