# Led's



## gardentroll (Mar 21, 2022)

I am really getting sick of these damn Mag Ballast as they dont seem to last worth a shit , I have
plenty of cash so what would be the best light  , I am swapping out 2k  , maybe 3 lights?  I have a 7x10 area 

Let me hear it

Peace GT


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## Bubba (Mar 21, 2022)

Photontek.

Bubba


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## boo (Mar 21, 2022)

2 photontek600's will make you the happiest guy on the block...I've got one and it so much better than HID or CMH...


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## WeedLord (Mar 21, 2022)

If you find the Older version Marshydro2 with the diodes that burned out all the time.
Dont BUY it ..........................LOL


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## WeedLord (Mar 21, 2022)

boo said:


> 2 photontek600's will make you the happiest guy on the block...I've got one and it so much better than HID or CMH...


There are Many like it but that one is Boo's


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## Witchking (Mar 23, 2022)

Have you LED guys seen a signifigant reduction in your power bill. I have been heavily considering going with LEDs , I can't hack this electric bill anymore. Also is heat still a concern???


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## WeedHopper (Mar 23, 2022)

LEDs use less electricity is my understanding.


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## choxie (Mar 23, 2022)

Witchking said:


> Have you LED guys seen a signifigant reduction in your power bill. I have been heavily considering going with LEDs , I can't hack this electric bill anymore. Also is heat still a concern???



Well I have 2x110watt led lights in a 18 x 36 and temps are around 78 and ambient is around 70. I think my electricity bill is $20-25 more with my exhaust fan and 2 lights in Los Angeles during 18 hour veg.


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## gardentroll (Mar 23, 2022)

ok  have been looking at everything ...Does anybody use Spider farmer leds


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## SubmarineGirl (Mar 23, 2022)

gardentroll said:


> ok  have been looking at everything ...Does anybody use Spider farmer leds


Yes I have the spider farmer 2000 in my 2x4 tent. I love the light and the plants do too


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## CrashMagnet (Mar 23, 2022)

Mars has been dumping their extra TS3000's on ebay recently...









						Mars Hydro TS 3000W LED Grow Light Full Spectrum for Indoor Plants Flower Veg IR  | eBay
					

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Mars Hydro TS 3000W LED Grow Light Full Spectrum for Indoor Plants Flower Veg IR at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!



					www.ebay.com


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## choxie (Mar 24, 2022)

Wow what a great deal!
I bet you could offer $300 and they'll take it.


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## Witchking (Mar 25, 2022)

I know nothing about Mars Hydro are they a good brand?


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## SubmarineGirl (Mar 25, 2022)

Witchking said:


> I know nothing about Mars Hydro are they a good brand?


There are tests going on with them now on this link. Just type mars hydro in the search block to link up. I have spider farm lights 2000 in 2x4. They work great for my grows.


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## WeedHopper (Mar 25, 2022)

Some good growers say they are great lights.


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## joeb631a (Mar 25, 2022)

Witchking said:


> Have you LED guys seen a signifigant reduction in your power bill. I have been heavily considering going with LEDs , I can't hack this electric bill anymore. Also is heat still a concern???


As a electrician ,I tell people Leds are the gift that keeps on giving.
B4 Leds ,lets say im putting High hats in your house I would have run a new circuit for them. Now ,I would connect them to the existing lighting circuit taking all the existing incandescent lights out of the picture. In a high hat situation they give off little or no heat .When we used HPS heat was a major issue. I bought some heatsinks to remote my LED driver ( ballast) which was not needed.I need the little heat that comes off of them.


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## joeb631a (Mar 25, 2022)

SubmarineGirl said:


> Yes I have the spider farmer 2000 in my 2x4 tent. I love the light and the plants do too


your plants love you too, never forget that !


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## RosterMan (Mar 25, 2022)

joeb631a said:


> As a electrician ,I tell people Leds are the gift that keeps on giving.
> B4 Leds ,lets say im putting High hats in your house I would have run a new circuit for them. Now ,I would connect them to the existing lighting circuit taking all the existing incandescent lights out of the picture. In a high hat situation they give off little or no heat .When we used HPS heat was a major issue. I bought some heatsinks to remote my LED driver ( ballast) which was not needed.I need the little heat that comes off of them.


Question
Can I add 4-5 LED high hats in kitchen to existing circuit without removing the old lighting? I need more lighting over a eating counter area , and would not always be on for cooking in the kitchen. Part of the kitchen countertop but wider to extend into a great room bar stool seating on other side. So like a Bar counter between kitchen and great room , ceiling mounted in sheetrock above.


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## RosterMan (Mar 25, 2022)

Oh kitchen High hats have the LED replacement bulbs already added to the cans and incandescent ones removed.


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## joeb631a (Mar 25, 2022)

TheBlackHydra said:


> Question
> Can I add 4-5 LED high hats in kitchen to existing circuit without removing the old lighting? I need more lighting over a eating counter area , and would not always be on for cooking in the kitchen. Part of the kitchen countertop but wider to extend into a great room bar stool seating on other side. So like a Bar counter between kitchen and great room , ceiling mounted in sheetrock above.


Yes you can ,4 -5" high hats burn +or - around the same as a 60 watt incandesent .
A THING FROM GOD!   the Leds that are a 1/2 thick that have a cord and a splice box with the driver in that can go over a floor joist.If you are setting a pattern of high hats in a kitchen symmetry is important and the beams dont work out or there are pipes in the bay or ac ducts .Times i have put a shower high hat and you want it center but a beam is in the way .Now they straddle the beam. Did a job where we rewired the whole house because it was aluminum.In the boiler room i put a led high hat that is also removable so it gave me access to the little attic above near the panel.The retrofit led trims for high hats are pretty good imho


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## RosterMan (Mar 25, 2022)

joeb631a said:


> Yes you can ,4 -5" high hats burn +or - around the same as a 60 watt incandesent .
> A THING FROM GOD!   the Leds that are a 1/2 thick that have a cord and a splice box with the driver in that can go over a floor joist.If you are setting a pattern of high hats in a kitchen symmetry is important and the beams dont work out or there are pipes in the bay or ac ducts .Times i have put a shower high hat and you want it center but a beam is in the way .Now they straddle the beam. Did a job where we rewired the whole house because it was aluminum.In the boiler room i put a led high hat that is also removable so it gave me access to the little attic above near the panel.The retrofit led trims for high hats are pretty good imho


Do they make any ceiling hugging look a like (highhats) in LED so I can surface mount the lights, the space I want to mount them is pretty much not accessible to wire without opening the ceiling area . Too tight to get a monkey in there.


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## petrovich (Mar 31, 2022)

guys sorry for giving my 2 cents on this, i see the names Mars hydro and Spiderfarmer over and over again on the last pages...dont you think this lights are overpriced as heck? I do see them as overpriced. I tend to guess the value of a light by comparing them to the price of the samsung Quantum Boards. The mixed colour boards with 288 diodes..many manufacturers sell them as a DIY kit with a Meanwell driver. Or they build there on heatsinks and fictures for these boards. 301H boards with a meanwell HLG series, thats pretty much as good as it can get. The less you power your boards, the more efficient they are.

Long story short, i always have in mind what a set of 2 boards and a meanwell 240Watt driver cost and compare that to the lamps being offered...i find most of them are too expensive. The tents look good though. Of Mars Hydro.

i spotted out Maxsisun and GLS to have good value...hope im not fired now by some sponsor. Or just buy the number of Quantum Boards you need with right driver. many shops sell them prebuild with heatsinks, often under their own brand name.


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## choxie (Mar 31, 2022)

I have famur lights which are pretty cheap like $75-80 on sale for 110 watts and use Samsung chips with a good quality heat sink. One of the most popular on Amazon and a lot of people are happy with it. Kilowatt usage is 105-110


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## petrovich (Mar 31, 2022)

well i wouldnt bet on whats popular on Amazon XD..
105 KW... i didnt know youre commercial.

to me the coverage of the light is whats most important. The smaller the lightsource, the higher the chance that some spots are obstructed from light. so for a 60x60 tent in a perfect case i would wish for a 55x55 cm lightpanel. Its gonna have less power/diode density ofc. But it will have by far the best characteristics. Even better than a light with many bars. But enough space for airflow must be there.


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## choxie (Mar 31, 2022)

Lol whoops this phone autocorrected that.

Yeah it's just 110 regular ol watts

Is your grow space 60cm x60cm or 60 inches?
If it's inches then you could use one of the mars hydro fc-e 3000 or if money isn't a factor then fc 6000.

If it's cm then maybe check out mogobe octopus 300. Only because you want to control the width and such.


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## SubmarineGirl (Mar 31, 2022)

I just h


petrovich said:


> guys sorry for giving my 2 cents on this, i see the names Mars hydro and Spiderfarmer over and over again on the last pages...dont you think this lights are overpriced as heck? I do see them as overpriced. I tend to guess the value of a light by comparing them to the price of the samsung Quantum Boards. The mixed colour boards with 288 diodes..many manufacturers sell them as a DIY kit with a Meanwell driver. Or they build there on heatsinks and fictures for these boards. 301H boards with a meanwell HLG series, thats pretty much as good as it can get. The less you power your boards, the more efficient they are.
> 
> Long story short, i always have in mind what a set of 2 boards and a meanwell 240Watt driver cost and compare that to the lamps being offered...i find most of them are too expensive. The tents look good though. Of Mars Hydro.
> 
> i spotted out Maxsisun and GLS to have good value...hope im not fired now by some sponsor. Or just buy the number of Quantum Boards you need with right driver. many shops sell them prebuild with heatsinks, often under their own brand name.


I happened to choose the spider farmer 2000 when I started up. I bought the kit from them directly and have been super happy with the light for sure. I’m on my 2nd grow now. They are my grow to lights as all my girls love them. I think worth the price but I would be no good at piece milling one together. I’m sure there is a cheaper way but I’m considering another one for a new veg space…


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## petrovich (Mar 31, 2022)

i already have lights. i had 4 panels to cover the whole area but airflow was to small so i had to take out 1 light. I very much recommend filling as much space with panel as possible. If you can fit 2 lights instead of one? You can power each 50% and it will be brighter than 1 at 100% because efficiency is better. Good if youre living in a country with crazy power bill. Plus the diode and driver stay cooler and will live longer. Plus perfect light distribution to every spot.


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## WeedHopper (Apr 22, 2022)

LED Grow Lights | Grow Light Science
					

Highest performance, broadband LED grow lights for full-cycle cannabis cultivation at the lowest cost.




					www.growlightscience.com


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

I still use 1k dimmable digital ballasts and raptor hoods. I flower at 750 watts per hood after ~week 5 and get ~2lb of the stickiest dank per light

Lumens per watt at 1 meter & grams of herb per watt used, LED tech is just not as efficient as manufacturers lie about.


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## SubmarineGirl (Apr 22, 2022)

OGKushman said:


> I still use 1k dimmable digital ballasts and raptor hoods. I flower at 750 watts per hood after ~week 5 and get ~2lb of the stickiest dank per light
> 
> Lumens per watt at 1 meter & grams of herb per watt used, LED tech is just not as efficient as manufacturers lie about.


Maybe one day I will understand the lumens per watt at 1 meter vs grams per watt thing…


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## WeedHopper (Apr 22, 2022)

I have no idea about LEDS.
I've grown under HOT5s for yrs and grew some really nice dank. Had a 4ft 8 Tube system that put out 40,000 lumens.
5000 lumens per tube. Used 6500K for veg and 2700K for flower. Also mixed them in  the first couple weeks of flower.


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

SubmarineGirl said:


> Maybe one day I will understand the lumens per watt at 1 meter vs grams per watt thing…


You put a light meter at a ~3 feet and measure the intensity coming from your light. The benchmark is the sun which is ideally 10,000 lumens per square foot in the mid day sun. You want to recreate this as close to possible.
With HPS lights you are close ~8000 lumens at 3 feet from the light.
With LED you aren’t anywhere near the sun at 3 feet from the light. The last one I tested was 1300 lumens at 3 feet from the light using 220 watts of LED. That is more then 1/5th the power and less then 1/5th the light output. 

so for the wattage used and output attained, LEDs are not as efficient as HID lighting with respect to grams of total harvest per watt of power used.


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

Will LEDs work? Sure. Is it the most efficient in the producing the most grams of herb for your effort? Nope.


WeedHopper said:


> I have no idea about LEDS.
> I've grown under HOT5s for yrs and grew some really nice dank. Had a 4ft 8 Tube system that put out 40,000 lumens.
> 5000 lumens per tube. Used 6500K for veg and 2700K for flower. Also mixed them in  the first couple weeks of flower.


40,000 lumens at what distance though. The number is somewhat arbitrary. Lumens per square foot at a set distance is what’s important.


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## oldfogey8 (Apr 22, 2022)

From what I have read, PPFD is a better way to assess a grow light as it takes into account the spectra of light that plants use. I have seen what @OGKushman and @WeedHopper grow so obviously lumens work. I have also had excellent results with T5 bulbs. They just use more energy than LED’s per lumen or umol/sec/m^2(or whatever the units are)…


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

oldfogey8 said:


> From what I have read, PPFD is a better way to assess a grow light as it takes into account the spectra of light that plants use. I have seen what @OGKushman and @WeedHopper grow so obviously lumens work. I have also had excellent results with T5 bulbs. They just use more energy than LED’s per lumen or umol/sec/m^2(or whatever the units are)…


White spectrums are more energetic then reds. So measuring different kelvin temperatures and comparing the output is not linear.

Flowering plants do not need 6000+ K temps so the extra intensity from white or even infrared is an uneven comparison.

Totals lumens per set distance and area is an even comparison.


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## WeedHopper (Apr 22, 2022)

My T5s were 4" from the canopy and i used 2700k in flowering. Ive got pictures of some very nice tight buds i grew with my T5s.


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

WeedHopper said:


> My T5s were 4" from the canopy and i used 2700k in flowering.


But what was the lumen output halfway down the canopy or like 3 feet away? It’s only half the equation.


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## WeedHopper (Apr 22, 2022)

Dont have a fking clue. All i know is my harvest was awesome and the smoke was great and my friends loved it. Ill let you worry with the science.


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

The inverse square law is a thing of beauty.


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## Bubba (Apr 22, 2022)

OGKushman said:


> Will LEDs work? Sure. Is it the most efficient in the producing the most grams of herb for your effort? Nope.
> 
> 40,000 lumens at what distance though. The number is somewhat arbitrary. Lumens per square foot at a set distance is what’s important.


He's  not talking about led, but T5. My LEDs outperform my hps in everyway. Both 600 watts total. All lights performance drops off with distance, MH and HPS are no exceptions here.


Bubba


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## WeedHopper (Apr 22, 2022)

Im looking into some Leds but right now im growing 3 autos outside.


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## Hippie420 (Apr 22, 2022)

Bubba said:


> He's  not talking about led, but T5. My LEDs outperform my hps in everyway. Both 600 watts total. All lights performance drops off with distance, MH and HPS are no exceptions here.
> 
> 
> Bubba


Even for penetration?


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

Bubba said:


> He's  not talking about led, but T5. My LEDs outperform my hps in everyway. Both 600 watts total. All lights performance drops off with distance, MH and HPS are no exceptions here.
> 
> 
> Bubba


Yes but LED intensity drops off with distance much much faster then HID. With a wattage meter and a lumen meter you can so easily see the math.

LEDs are real intense close, and useless at distance when flowering. At 4 feet your buds will be almost nonexistent.

Of course they will work, and work fine in tiny short type grows, but you can’t escape the fact that the intensity is lost at any distance much faster then HID.


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

There is more to the equation but the main reason light intensity at a distance, or canopy penetration, is so much better with HID has to do with the inverse square law. Intensity is inversely related to distance. One massive source of intense light reflected around creates much more scattered light and as a result is more intense at a distance then single beams of less intense non scattered light. 

**not an artist


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## Bubba (Apr 22, 2022)

Cocoforcannabissite in their reviews covers this with par measurements at several different heights. They also show for, iirc, 600watt HPS.

Early led had little penetration, and lesser flower results, but things have improved led wise.

With newer LEDs, I have had light bleaching

Bubba


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

I’ve tested for myself recently some “1000w” LED lights that use 220w at 120v. They do not do what they claim they do. 

We all played with those cheap laser pointers before. They were about 0.3 watt and shine about 1/4 mile. Stack 1000 of them. You have 300 watts of laser right? should shine a laser dot a lot farther right? No, it will not. You still only have 1000-0.3 watt lasers. 

 A 300 watt laser would zap through steel. It would be seen at 25 miles. 

You can’t stack LEDs close enough without melting the PCB and LED casings or filaments to ever get close to HID output per unit of distance. You also can’t reflect them like an HID to get uniform coverage. It’s against the laws of physics.

Get yourself a light meter and see for yourself.


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

I know we all want to be more efficient but in the real world you get nothing for free. Energy in energy out. With LED tech, unless some mega breakthrough is made, we will never see the lumen intensity per unit distance from the source per square foot of space.


That a lot of science I know, but also in the real world people grow just fine herb they are satisfied with using LEDs. And that’s great. It’s cheap. It works for them. I will not deny this. But it is not the most efficient when talking quality and quantity per watt used.


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## WeedHopper (Apr 22, 2022)

So your saying HPS is a better light system all around?
My problem is Texas heat kicks that ass with HPS unless you have a really nice setup with AC.
I like my HOT5s for what im doing. I dont grow over 2 or 3 plants at a time inside or outside. Mine is all for personal use so im good with my setup. I am interested in looking into Leds though for added lights to see how they do with my HOT5s.
T5s do not put out a lot of heat especially in vegg with 6500k tubes. You can put your hand on them and not get burned but when you switch to 2700k for flower it puts out a little heat but nothing like HPS. And i can still keep them 4 or 5" from the canopy. And if you have a few T5s for side lighting even the lower buds look good.


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

WeedHopper said:


> So your saying HPS is a better light system all around?
> My problem is Texas heat kicks that ass with HPS unless you have a really nice setup with AC.
> I like my HOT5s for what im doing. I dont grow over 2 or 3 plants at a time inside or outside. Mine is all for personal use so im good with my setup. I am interested in looking into Leds though for added lights to see how they do with my HOT5s.
> T5s do not put out a lot of heat especially in vegg with 6500k tubes. You can put your hand on them and not get burned but when you switch to 2700k for flower it puts out a little heat but nothing like HPS. And i can still keep them 4 or 5" from the canopy. And if you have a few T5s for side lighting even the lower buds look good.


What I’m saying is all things being equal HPS wins. 

Put 1000w HPS light side by side in 2 separate grows with 1000 true watts (not equivalent) of LED in the other space and the HPS will give you more. I’m talking 1 1000 watt high pressure sodium versus ~5 of the 220 watt LED’s. 

But I understand diminishing returns and if you can’t afford to grow then you don’t grow. And we can’t have that now can we. So I see where less then 1000w is required.

I’d 10% overdrive a 400w HPS and compare that to 2 of the 220w LED lights I tested if I just didn’t want to believe it. But I’ve seen 396 grams out of a 400w telephone booth.


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## WeedHopper (Apr 22, 2022)

I can afford to grow my dank just fine my friend. And ill put my smoke up against anybody's when it comes to flavor and the high.
I do understand that the HPS will pretty much out do any of the other systems for flowering when it comes to weight. Not going to argue that point. You should sell HPS OG. Ill give you this brother,,you are defiantly fking persistent 
I will say this though,,,i have seen some beautiful plants loaded with trichomes that was grown under LEDS. Its not always about the weight my friend unless your selling your weed. Most that grow for personal use or looking for a descent harvest with a great taste and awesome buzz and how they get there doesn't matter if they are happy with their dank.
Now i will argue if you try and tell me that HPS gives the best taste and buzz, because a lot of that has to do with the strain and some TLC,,not necessarily the strongest light system.


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

WeedHopper said:


> I can afford to grow my dank just fine my friend. And ill put my smoke up against anybody's when it comes to flavor and the high.
> I do understand that the HPS will pretty much out do any of the other systems which is fine. Not going to argue that point. You should sell HPS brother. Ill give you this,,you are sold on HPS.


It wasn’t directed at you that was just in general if you put 1000 W HID in your south facing garage on the west wall, then it’s always 100° outside and you can’t cool your room. Then you add AC and now you have humidity condensing …on and on it goes so sometimes it’s best to do what works in your environment and in the end what you are happy with. 

In winter here where I live it can get so cold and dry that I duct all my HID heat back in and welcome the increased humidity and heat but that’s not common for most. In summer though I am often struggling to keep my temps under 90 in the middle of their dark period but I’m not cooling my entire garage so there is a fine line we walk before the cost isn’t worth the effort.


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## oldfogey8 (Apr 22, 2022)

OGKushman said:


> The inverse square law is a thing of beauty.


You can have the plant tops within a couple of inches of T5 bulbs. The inverse square law is a thing of beauty. I used 2700k mixed with 10000k and one with UV B. Got done nice buds too. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.


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## boo (Apr 22, 2022)

I recently replaced a 1K raptor with a photontek LED system and am far happier with the end product...far less heat and almost half the energy consumption...my flowers have never tasted better and the trichs really pack it on...I've had excellent results with 4 1K raptors in 1 room when I was growing large but now in tents I can't see any reason to go back...my entry for bud of the month was grown under the 600 LED...


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## OGKushman (Apr 22, 2022)

oldfogey8 said:


> You can have the plant tops within a couple of inches of T5 bulbs. The inverse square law is a thing of beauty. I used 2700k mixed with 10000k and one with UV B. Got done nice buds too. There is always more than one way to skin a cat.


I use a single 24” T5 to keep 5’ moms alive. I use a 4 and 2 bulb T8 with 15 watt LED replacement for veg and they get bushy and tall. I know they will grow a plant and how well they will. I’m not trying to argue with a single person about your grow and how good it is, that’s a subjective thing to discuss.  If it works for you and you are happy with the results then that’s all that matters right. Im not here to argue if it works. I know it works. It’s just not the most efficient like it’s commonly sold as. 

you can’t argue with repeatable results using calibrated meters and simple math. I mean you can, but I won’t be part of that.


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## Witchking (Apr 22, 2022)

Well I made a big investment in the garden today. I bought 2 Hyphotonlux 4000's 480W LED's for my tents. I pray this will cut down my electric bill but give me comparable results to HID lighting. I got one installed tonight  and damn is it bright..Definitely gonna have to wear sunglasses in there when I work. Did loads of research and these seemed quite praised despite the cheaper pricetag. Even with that said. I paid more for lighting than I have EVER paid , so I hope these do me right.


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## oldfogey8 (Apr 23, 2022)

OGKushman said:


> I use a single 24” T5 to keep 5’ moms alive. I use a 4 and 2 bulb T8 with 15 watt LED replacement for veg and they get bushy and tall. I know they will grow a plant and how well they will. I’m not trying to argue with a single person about your grow and how good it is, that’s a subjective thing to discuss.  If it works for you and you are happy with the results then that’s all that matters right. Im not here to argue if it works. I know it works. It’s just not the most efficient like it’s commonly sold as.
> 
> you can’t argue with repeatable results using calibrated meters and simple math. I mean you can, but I won’t be part of that.


Sorry. I wasn’t trying to argue. I probably didn’t state my point succinctly enough. With fluorescent bulbs like a t5 or t8, your plants can  be closer to the fixture without light burn than with HID bulbs. I have never grown with HID bulbs and from what I have read, they are the gold standard. If I kept my t5 fixture 3 feet from my plants, where the you are measuring the light intensity, I would have some leggy plants likely with almost lighter than air buds(the plant is it’s own light meter in a way showing lower light density as a function of distance with plant density being analogous to lumens). I agree that fluorescent bulbs are not as efficient as HID or LED lights for light density per watt of power used. My ‘more than one way to skin a cat’ statement was simply a statement of fact but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a best way to skin a cat(when it is dead vs alive -  ). There are just a lot of variables involved but achieved outcome(skinned cat or nice bud) is all of our goals.


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## OGKushman (Apr 23, 2022)

oldfogey8 said:


> Sorry. I wasn’t trying to argue. I probably didn’t state my point succinctly enough. With fluorescent bulbs like a t5 or t8, your plants can  be closer to the fixture without light burn than with HID bulbs. I have never grown with HID bulbs and from what I have read, they are the gold standard. If I kept my t5 fixture 3 feet from my plants, where the you are measuring the light intensity, I would have some leggy plants likely with almost lighter than air buds(the plant is it’s own light meter in a way showing lower light density as a function of distance with plant density being analogous to lumens). I agree that fluorescent bulbs are not as efficient as HID or LED lights for light density per watt of power used. My ‘more than one way to skin a cat’ statement was simply a statement of fact but that doesn’t mean there isn’t a best way to skin a cat(when it is dead vs alive -  ). There are just a lot of variables involved but achieved outcome(skinned cat or nice bud) is all of our goals.


I keep my lights at 12-18 inches but I have huge tops all the way down to ~5 feet under the light. So I have a ~3-4 feet thick canopy with no bottom fluff.

You make my point on that the T5 just doesn’t have the penetration power to grow as tall and dense of a canopy. If you stacked 20-4’ T5’s in a 5x5x8 room it won’t be able to produce as much as a 1000w HID, and at 50w for each T5 that is 1000 watts.

We really are splitting hairs. I’m not trying to convert anyone to anything. I’m just using the tools I have to produce as much as I can per watt and I like to share that info.


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## oldfogey8 (Apr 23, 2022)

Yup. Light penetration is a problem with T5’s.


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## WeedHopper (Apr 24, 2022)

True,,but I'm happy with my results.
This was one of my 1st grows with T5s. I later added side lighting and got even better results and no problems with heat.
And yes I know the HPS has better penetration but it also has a lot more heat issues that I don't want to deal with.
Besides I'm happy with my results and my dank so it really doesn't matter.


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## oldfogey8 (Apr 24, 2022)

There is a big difference between growing to sell vs growing for personal use. With my T5 grows, I was able to supply enough bud out of a 2x4x4 tent for me, my wife, my 2 sons and their friends with some left over for long term storage. A half pound or so is manageable for me. A couple of pounds would be a waste for me. I assume OG grows as a business and that is great and he has acknowledged basically different strokes for different folks. I will sit down and shut up now…


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## WeedHopper (Apr 24, 2022)

Yep. I do small personal grows so I am perfectly happy with my harvest and my buds.
As I said I am not arguing that HPS penetration is better,,,,, but for me not necessary because I use side lighting that does the same thing without removing fan leaves.
I laugh because I was actually told I couldn't grow from start to finish with HOT5s right here on this site back in 2008.
So I did it and posted my grow and proved them wrong. After that they sent members to me that wanted to grow with HOT5s.
Since then I have grown several times from start to finish with great results and will continue to do so. Although I am thinking about adding LEDs into the mix because of what I've seen with Trichomes being so heavy with LEDs.


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## OGKushman (Apr 24, 2022)

oldfogey8 said:


> There is a big difference between growing to sell vs growing for personal use. With my T5 grows, I was able to supply enough bud out of a 2x4x4 tent for me, my wife, my 2 sons and their friends with some left over for long term storage. A half pound or so is manageable for me. A couple of pounds would be a waste for me. I assume OG grows as a business and that is great and he has acknowledged basically different strokes for different folks. I will sit down and shut up now…


After all these years I still have 4 patients including myself. I wouldn’t call it a business as it’s not very profitable. It’s a hobby of mine and I do it for my own joy and for my need to help these last 3 who have become like family. Two of them were supposed to be dead a very long time ago and both of them still thank me to tears when I see them. How could I ever stop helping them? My space is 5x9x8 and I use 2-1k HPS in 8” raptor hoods both set to 750w since about week 5 of flower. I have achieved the same numbers per watt over a 10 week flower as commercial, and I haven’t used a single PGR.

big whoop I know. I get carried away. This is an LED thread and I ruined it


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## oldfogey8 (Apr 24, 2022)

You had help from me ruining it. Apologies to the OP in this.


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## OGKushman (Apr 24, 2022)

Maybe we should have a mod clean it up lol I’m ok with that.


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## oldfogey8 (Apr 24, 2022)

WeedHopper said:


> Yep. I do small personal grows so I am perfectly happy with my harvest and my buds.
> As I said I am not arguing that HPS penetration is better,,,,, but for me not necessary because I use side lighting that does the same thing without removing fan leaves.
> I laugh because I was actually told I couldn't grow from start to finish with HOT5s right here on this site back in 2008.
> So I did it and posted my grow and proved them wrong. After that they sent members to me that wanted to grow with HOT5s.
> Since then I have grown several times from start to finish with great results and will continue to do so. Although I am thinking about adding LEDs into the mix because of what I've seen with Trichomes being so heavy with LEDs.


I went with some cheap blurple LED’s after the T5’s. I think I get better penetration. Side lighting has never been an option for me because I always have one more plant than my tent can handle do I overcrowd them. If I get to the point where I need a new LED, I will get a white light LED but LED’s supposedly have 50,000 hours of life so mine will likely outlive me…


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## WeedHopper (Apr 24, 2022)

This thread is fine guys. That's what makes this place great. We can have discussions and even a difference of opinion without acting like assholes.
If I was growing for other ppl than I would most likely go to HPS for just that reason. 
Yehaaaaaaaaaaa


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## choxie (Apr 25, 2022)

Wait sorry just to double check somewhere in this thread someone said led is less efficient than HID?


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## Witchking (Jun 18, 2022)

Just wanted to update:
I LOVE the Full spectrum LED Lights I purchased. It has really been a game changer for me.
For the fact these are equivalent to a 800 watt HID but burning at half the cost of my 1000's I used to run. Huge. Also I swear since I put these up my buds are turning out tighter and waaaay frostier. Been really really impressed.
 The initial investment was painful ,as these lights are not cheap but all my fears have been allayed. Now I just wish I had made the jump a few years ago, could have been saving thousands in electrical cost, and virtually zero heat problems.


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## WeedHopper (Jun 18, 2022)

What light did you get?


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## oldfogey8 (Jun 18, 2022)

OGKushman said:


> There is more to the equation but the main reason light intensity at a distance, or canopy penetration, is so much better with HID has to do with the inverse square law. Intensity is inversely related to distance. One massive source of intense light reflected around creates much more scattered light and as a result is more intense at a distance then single beams of less intense non scattered light.
> 
> **not an artist View attachment 294677


I have never seen this explained so eloquently. Makes perfect sense. For me heat, energy consumption and the expenses associated with both are more important than the added bulk of lower buds at harvest. I can’t smoke what I grow fast enough to keep up with my LED grows but as I understand it, you grow to supply patients so HID lamps make sense in your case.


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## Witchking (Jun 20, 2022)

WeedHopper said:


> What light did you get?


Hyphotonlux HPF 4000

It's equivilent to an 800 watt  HID but only burning 480 watts. Bought off of Amazon. If you are interested in LED's I highly recommend these. They are kinda the new kid on the block as LED companies go. I have been very happy.


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