# Chemical vs Organic fertilizers



## DrFever (Feb 17, 2013)

Whats all the fuss about organic vs Chemical nutrients ???? you here  chemicals can do harm to the root system etc,  what about  mites ??? you can go organic ( neem)  again  will it fully get rid of them mites compared to chemical sprays  that will probably wipe them out first shot ??? and most i must admit are environmentally friendly now.
 You here the misconception of organic plant food will not burn or hurt your plants ???
  You can burn your plants with any type of nutrients regardless if they're chelated or not.  Feeding your plants is all about proper balance and timing.  You can overdose your plants with organic fertilizers too, it's a common misconception that people have, just because it's "organic" does not mean you can feed your plants every watering at high dosage levels with no ill effects.

I'm personally a fan of the chemical fertilizers, but I prefer ones of a slightly higher quality.
 chemical fertilizers are essentially exactly the same as organic fertilizers, only with a much more rapid absorption rate because you're skipping the step of decomposition within the soil. Of course, an argument can be made that the bacteria and viruses living within the soil are beneficial to over health of the root system, but this can be accomplished with hydroponic nutrients via beneficial innoculations and fulvic acids etc.
So what is the big fuss over all this ???? what about growth rates ????
compared to chemical grown like hydro  vs organic soils  are yields more with organic ???? i tend to think not, to me its all about rapid growth rates and as many yields per year as possible 
Many organic growers  tend to want to re use there soils and that is great for my self i tend to buy new every grow  for the cost of soils is not that expensive to begin with and my old soils  to be  mixed in with outside gardens 
whats your thoughts people


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## pcduck (Feb 17, 2013)

I am pretty sure you do not want to hear my thoughts on this.


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## kaotik (Feb 17, 2013)

quite simply my thinking is;
organic is for personal
synthetic is for selling

yeah you can do personal synthetic, many do.. but you don't see a lot of organic cash-croppers 

i love the growth, and ease of synthetics.. i just could never get an end product as good. (wish i never tried organic.. i had no idea till i did  )
both have their place though. i'm not one of those growers that scoffs at anything but what i use/do  


*must admit myself, i'm just a step shy of synth; doing bottled organics and amendments   ..haven't got 100% organic down yet.


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## DrFever (Feb 17, 2013)

pcduck said:
			
		

> I am pretty sure you do not want to hear my thoughts on this.



Of course i do


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## The Hemp Goddess (Feb 17, 2013)

I am not about the most yields per year, but I do like a decent yield for the time, money, and effort expended.  I did some organic grows this last summer.  Being an old hippie, I just wanted to try it  The difference in growth between the chemically grown hydro plants and the organic soil plants was huge.  I originally put it down to my being a newbie at organics, but my vegetables that I used the same soil on did outstanding--several people told me I had the best veggie garden in town (it is a small town however).

I also never noticed any better taste with organically grown bud as from chemically grown bud.  

I will continue to experiment with organics and use it on my veggies, but it will not be my sole way of growing.


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## DrFever (Feb 17, 2013)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I am not about the most yields per year, but I do like a decent yield for the time, money, and effort expended.  I did some organic grows this last summer.  Being an old hippie, I just wanted to try it  The difference in growth between the chemically grown hydro plants and the organic soil plants was huge.  I originally put it down to my being a newbie at organics, but my vegetables that I used the same soil on did outstanding--several people told me I had the best veggie garden in town (it is a small town however).
> 
> I also never noticed any better taste with organically grown bud as from chemically grown bud.
> 
> I will continue to experiment with organics and use it on my veggies, but it will not be my sole way of growing.



Great post  many people forget to mention probably 90 percent of  the greens we eat are chemically enhanced  being sprays and plant food, 
 from farmers spreading manures mid summer to late fall  allowing manures to decompose  yet  soil tests are done in spring and chemical nutrients made as per soil  samples  for new year harvests 
could it be many  growers that lean to organic soils???? have had problems in the past  with chemical nutrients and find it easier  to grow in organics ????
could very well be.
I have grown organics in the past and to be honest  i found way slower growth compared to chemical nute grows
i chuckle when i go to a grocery store and see  organically grown products at higher price i find it a real gimmic


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## Rosebud (Feb 17, 2013)

I never even considered growing any other way than organic. I quit using synthetics in my back yard about 15 years ago. I eat organic as much as I can, why would I not grow organic. 

I hate neem oil and don't use it. It admit it would be easier maybe to take care of bugs but I am a small gardener and don't mind the extra work to make it clean.

Fever, I used chemicals for 20 years. no more. never. I grew roses for competition for years. Yes, they were beautiful, but at what cost to the earth and my health.


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## pcduck (Feb 17, 2013)

Chemical nutes are destroying our planet. This can be seen in the increase in algae blooms in our lakes and rivers. Making some lakes and river uninhabitable for fish and marine life. It also leaches down to our well water and aquifers thus we are drinking our own chemicals. Chemicals also destroys the soil food web and increases the compactions of our soil.

Now for the yields. Once you dial in grow with organics you will have the same yield as chemical nutes, in my experience. 

The cost involved is way higher when using chemicals. Buying soil and nutes constantly. Buying chemical nutes all the time because the soil needs them to grow anything because the soil food web is destroyed... Organics one can reuse the soil, no nutes to buy because if you look around your property/area you can find what you need without buying anything. Leaves, grass clippings and the such makes great compost and if you use an AEM or can wait a long time, can be used in a liquid form. Even scraps off your table can be used to make compost, thus saving landfill space.

There is more but I feel terrible today and need to go back and lie down again.


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## DrFever (Feb 17, 2013)

pd you can put that to all nutes  its industrial  polution   which then  brings down acid  rain and contaminates  everything 
 Here is a thought ???? how organic do you think you really are    from purchasing manures, and other products how organic is the manures ?????
if you really think about it for a second   all nutrients are chemicals  lets have a look  at most common Agricultural nutrients 

Urea
Urea is the most widely used solid nitrogen fertilizer and is usually applied as granules, although it is sometimes mixed with ammonium nitrate and dissolved in water to form urea ammonium nitrate solution. When applied to soil, urea reacts with water to form ammonia, which makes the nitrogen within the fertilizer available to plants. Urea fertilizers deliver one of the highest amounts of nitrogen at 46 percent, with no phosphorus or potassium.

Ammonium Nitrate
A solid fertilizer typically applied in granular form, ammonium nitrate provides substantial amounts of nitrogen to the soil. The Fertilizer Institute indicates that ammonium nitrate is particularly effective at fertilizing specialty crops such as citrus and pasture lands. Ammonium nitrate typically provides 33 percent nitrogen.


Ammonium Sulfate
A by-product derived from the waste generated by coke ovens, ammonium sulfate forms when sulfuric acid is used to remove ammonia from the coal used to make coke. Ammonium sulfate is a solid material that contains 21 percent nitrogen.

Calcium Nitrate
This fertilizer contains 16 percent nitrogen in a nitrate form. Less effective than other nitrogen fertilizers due to leaching when applied to soil, calcium nitrate is often used in fruit and vegetable crops to provide a readily available source of nitrogen and also provides soluble calcium for soils that are calcium deficient.

Diammonium Phosphate
Where soils do not have enough phosphorus, diammonium phosphate can provide significant amounts of this chemical, at around 46 percent. The ammonia component of diammonium phosphate also delivers around 18 percent nitrogen. Highly water soluble, diammonium phosphate is often applied in liquid form.

Monoammonium phosphate
Another phosphorus fertilizer, monoammonium phosphate delivers even more phosphorus than diammonium phosphate, at 48 percent. The amount of nitrogen in fertilizer provides is somewhat less at 11 percent. The lower level of the ammonia component of this chemical lessens the risk of damage when applied to new seedling growth.

Triple Super Phosphate
Available in granular form, triple super phosphate is applied directly to the soil. While largely replaced by diammonium phosphate and monoammonium phosphate due to better storage and the availability of nitrogen within the chemicals, triple super phosphate is still in use both commercially and in home applications. Triple super phosphate is often combined with nitrogen-based fertilizers to provide a better, broad-spectrum application.

Potassium Nitrate
Potassium nitrate, also called nitrate of potash, is frequently used on vegetable crops including celery, potatoes, leafy green vegetables, tomatoes and several fruit crops, according to the Michigan State University Extension. The nitrate component of this chemical fertilizer works well with these crops. Potassium nitrate provides 44 percent potassium.

Potassium Chloride
Sometimes called muriate of potash, potassium chloride is a significant source of the element potassium as a fertilizer. Directly applied to soils or combined into multiple endings of mixed fertilizers, potassium chloride is also highly soluble and can be applied in liquid fertilizers. The chemical typically provides 60 to 62 percent potassium.


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## Rosebud (Feb 17, 2013)

" how organic do you think you really are from purchasing manures, and other products how organic is the manures ?????"

I think my manure is fine thank you shoveled myself from a farm I grew up on. I know what the cows were fed and watered with.


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## DrFever (Feb 17, 2013)

rose you may be lucky to be able to go out in the back yard and pick up a cow pie  many are not 
 when your cow falls sick  does not a vet  administer a man made chemical into the cow in either needle or pill form ????  could that be contaminating a cow  which there feces is then used in a organic garden ????

Would you eat your favorite breakfast cereal if you knew that it contained Butylated Hydroxytoluene (BHT), a product also used in jet fuel and embalming fluid? Can you imagine grilling your low fat veggie burger if you found out that its main ingredient is Monosodium Glutamate (MSG)?
Watch out, because foods that are considered &#8220;healthy&#8221; and labeled as &#8220;natural&#8221; contain many harmful chemicals used as food preservatives and flavor enhancers &#8211; and these chemicals are often disguised under unrecognizable names.


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## Rosebud (Feb 17, 2013)

I quit eating bht and bha in the 70's. I have a feeling this subject is oneyou don't want to get into with me, cause I been reading labels since before you were born. 

If cattle are raised right no vet ever comes to the house.


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## pcduck (Feb 17, 2013)

I thought we were discussing chem and organic fertilizers, Not acid rain :confused2:

Now you see why I posted my first response?

Dr.Fever maybe more research is warranted on your end, besides a copy and paste?

As most of what you posted are not listed as OMRI approved


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 17, 2013)

what attracted me the most to learn how to grow organically was the idea of giving control back to the plants. creating an environment where everything the plants need is available to them, but NOT force feeding them what WE think they need.


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## DrFever (Feb 18, 2013)

lol rosebud i am 48 years old  not sure how old you are my friend   pd doesn't matter  if its copy and paste  now really does it ???? What i am getting at is
do you think organic is better, does it grow better , yield more ???
and the answer is NO it does not compete.  I tend to believe  organic growers are becoming  bias, if i waned to be a tree hugging environmentalist i would join green peace lol all of my soil is re used i do not drain to waste  or flush anything down the drain  hey when you flush where do you place your liquid ??? 
I never came here to slam organic soils  just asking what is the fuss all about it ???? i know if i had a sick looking plant it would recover quicker with chem nutes  then organic
 i know that growing in organic is like  comparing 400 watt grow speed to a 1000 watt growth speed , 
and at the end of the day being efficient is what its all about right


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## DrFever (Feb 18, 2013)

Something i found interesting  for all non  chemical users  when  taking  cuttings do you just place in water, or soil do you use clonex ???? have a read at the safety data sheet and its dangerous goods  chemical classes 

focus-on-plants.com/userfiles/sds-clonex.pdf[/url]


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## Rosebud (Feb 18, 2013)

lol rosebud i am 48 years old not sure how old you are my friend pd doesn't matter if its copy and paste now really does it ???? What i am getting at is
do you think organic is better, does it grow better , yield more ?[/I??

Excuse me Fever, I did think you were younger, I apologize.

I don't know if organic is better or yields more. I have never grown pot non organically. I think you may get better yields going with chemicals from what I have heard.  It is a philosophy, a way of life. I never considered growing any other way a long time ago. It is a philosophy that is based in facts, I believe.  I doubt your interested in why I feel so strongly about this and it may be very boring, so I won't bore you.

 PS.. I can't go in my back yard for cow pies anymore"


 i have to drive two hours for good organic cow ****.

PSS
"i know that growing in organic is like comparing 400 watt grow speed to a 1000 watt growth speed"  Fever

Does that bpotm look like a 400 watt grow?  Peace


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## pcduck (Feb 18, 2013)

DrFever said:
			
		

> pd doesn't matter if its copy and paste now really does it ????



It does if you do not comprehend what you are copying and pasting.



			
				DrFever said:
			
		

> does it grow better , yield more ???
> and the answer is NO it does not compete.



See and read my previous post and if you cannot get the same yields I would say you did not have your organic grow dialed in. 



			
				DrFever said:
			
		

> at the end of the day being efficient is what its all about right



Wrong, imo. At the end of the day it is all about not killing our planet.imo



> hey when you flush where do you place your liquid ???



I do not flush my plants and even if I did it would still be organic. When dumping chemical nutes or dirt it loses its CEC and any liquid just leaches through the soil to the ground water/well water/lakes and rivers.



			
				Dr.Fever said:
			
		

> I tend to believe organic growers are becoming bias,



I think you were pretty bias even before you posted this thread.



			
				DrFever said:
			
		

> i know that growing in organic is like comparing 400 watt grow speed to a 1000 watt growth speed



:confused2: The wattage of the light does not matter, what matters is the amount of lumens per square feet in their grows The only time I have seen a difference in my grows is in hydroponics(DWC) where the vegetative growth rate is faster. Once you have your organic grow dialed in, I have not seen a difference.

For clones I cut them at a 45 degree angle and place it in my soil. I do not use clonex.

A person does not have to be a grower or a tree hugging environmentalist to see the damage that chemical nutes cause. Just ask any fishermen or a person that swims in our rivers and lakes. They can see with their own eyes the algae blooms and the dead spots where fish will not live due to chemical nutes.


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## DrFever (Feb 19, 2013)

A person does not have to be a grower or a tree hugging environmentalist to see the damage that chemical nutes cause. Just ask any fishermen or a person that swims in our rivers and lakes. They can see with their own eyes the algae blooms and the dead spots where fish will not live due to chemical nutes.
 you mention this like  its all caused  by  growing in chemicals  but neglect the fact most pollution is from burning of fossil fuels  just curious  how many rides do you have in your driveway , toys ???  just google how many tons of Nuclear waste is in your state ( back yard )
 lets have a look at pollution  land 
 love canal
green point oil spill
murphy oil spill
prudhoe bay oil spill 

you mention ask any fisherman  ok lets look at ocean pollution 

2007 sanfrancisco oil spill 
new orleans oil spill
exxon valdez oil spill
 Dam hey list goes on  i can guarntee you that most indoor grows  yes were a small percentage compared to the world  really doing  nothing compared to other devastating issues  lets not forget  japan  earth quake that rocked there nuke facility 
and most importantly  superfund sites  which are scattered in every corner of usa  

dumped 226 million pounds of toxic chemicals in to U.S. waterways in 2010, according to a new report by Environment America. The group analyzed government data on industrial facilities to reveal total discharges by state and which U.S. rivers bear the heaviest toxic chemical burden.

Food and beverage manufacturing, which includes slaughterhouses and rendering plants, heavy metals manufacturing, chemical plants, and petroleum refineries were among the largest polluters. The biggest single polluter, according self-reported data to EPA&#8217;s Toxic Release Inventory, was AK Steel with nearly 30 million pounds of toxins into waterways in Indiana and Ohio.


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## pcduck (Feb 21, 2013)

DrFever.. what does oil spills have to do with chemical or organic fertilizers?:confused2:


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 21, 2013)

he's saying that humans are already destroying the planet in many different ways. also that there are so many other things that destroy our planet much more then the use of chemical ferts.

imo this whole discussion is irrelevant. there will always be people who will want to grow in a way that isn't harmful to the planet. and people who don't care enough and just want the biggest fastest yeilds possible. which is just dumb b/c the increase in yeilds(if there even is one) is so miniscule that its just not worth sacrificing the good of our planet.


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## pcduck (Feb 21, 2013)

> he's saying that humans are already destroying the planet in many different ways.



I understand that part SB. What I do not understand is how it relates to the difference between chemical nutes and organics.:confused2: Is that not what this thread was about originally? 



> also that there are so many other things that destroy our planet much more then the use of chemical ferts



True there are many things that destroy our planet and chem nutes are just one. Ask nearly anyone that lives around the Great Lakes(the largest fresh water body on the planet) what chemical nute run off has done to them. From huge dead zones from algae blooms where fish will not live. To the slimy green filled yuck floating all over. To the 2 foot deep dead algae covering the lake bottoms. This has happened just in the last few years and getting worst fast.

Chemical nutes works, I am not debating that, but so does organics without the detrimental effects that chems have.


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 21, 2013)

here here!, we should start a TLO group     :48:


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## DrFever (Feb 21, 2013)

I am not debating  of course they both work  and yes i will agree some growers are negligent on disposing there  run offs, 
I think  your totally blaming chemicals on  the  algae / blooms on the great lakes where that again is not all of the cause 
 runoff from cities and towns  the  slow down of rivers  also effect this  the over population really if you think about it,  zebra muscles cause this as well, over flow from septic tanks ,  live stock near water  there so many causes 
How many people  S H I T  in  New York in a day  where do you think  its going.

you here organic mj growers mention  there buds are better more potent , and overall looks  i will have to find a email  and post where a friend  entered a organic canibus cup    and won   but funny thing is after he said to judges   it was grown chemically  and the look on there faces  as he told me 

Bottom line i guess i may have to start a  journal   1 plant organic  only water fed  and one  chemical    time frame 2 weeks  from clone  veg  then flower     1000 watt per  per plant  c02 induced  with a break down  of complete costs  per yield  data   soil , power  etc 
Cause at the end of the day it really is and i don't care what anyone says about yield and looks of final product 
 then will have a smoke report done  with some friend  not knowing  which  joint is organic and which joint isn't    and  report there  findings


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 21, 2013)

DrFever said:
			
		

> Bottom line i guess i may have to start a  journal   1 plant organic  only water fed  and one  chemical    time frame 2 weeks  from clone  veg  then flower     1000 watt per  per plant  c02 induced  with a break down  of complete costs  per yield  data   soil , power  etc
> Cause at the end of the day it really is and i don't care what anyone says about yield and looks of final product
> then will have a smoke report done  with some friend  not knowing  which  joint is organic and which joint isn't    and  report there  findings



the problem with side by side grows like this is that the person doing it must have = experience at growing chemically and organically. otherwise the findings will always support the side with which your experience is greater


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## pcduck (Feb 21, 2013)

> I think your totally blaming chemicals on the algae / blooms on the great lakes where that again is not all of the cause



Many case studies have been done showing that it is.:confused2:
The influx of non-native species that clarify the water have just hasten it.

People's well water are showing chemicals in it that directly points to chemical fertilizers.:confused2: 

I am not saying that chemical fertilizers is the sole cause of these examples, but they play a major part. 

But any way I still do not understand why it is part of the thread. Now if you were going to debate organic growing is causing this and not chemical fertilizers, I could understand why.. What you are debating is chemical fertilizers are not the sole blame:doh: But it is still part of it.imo


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## Rosebud (Feb 21, 2013)

ShOrTbUs said:
			
		

> the problem with side by side grows like this is that the person doing it must have = experience at growing chemically and organically. otherwise the findings will always support the side with which your experience is greater



Exactly, I don't care which tastes better or gives a better yield. It is a way of life. You don't just say i will grow organic and do it. Takes a long time for compost to become compost.


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## pcduck (Feb 21, 2013)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> Exactly, I don't care which tastes better or gives a better yield. It is a way of life. You don't just say i will grow organic and do it. Takes a long time for compost to become compost.



:yeahthat::goodposting:

Taste is an opinion anyways


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## DrFever (Feb 25, 2013)

If you could ask your plants the same question, youd find out that at the most basic level, they really cant tell the difference  nutrients are nutrients.
To begin with, the terminology can be confusing, since labels and gardeners freely throw around words like organic, natural, inorganic, chemical, synthetic, artificial, and manufactured. The good news is that the choice can be reduced to either organic or chemical fertilizers.

The words organic or natural in this case simply means that the product is only minimally processed, and the nutrients remain bound up in their natural forms, rather than being extracted and refined. In the case of fertilizer, organic does NOT refer to the standards of processing associated with food.

Organic fertilizer is usually made from plant or animal waste or powdered minerals. Examples include manure and compost, as well as bone and cottonseed meal. They are usually sold as soil conditioners rather than as fertilizer, because the nutrient ratios are difficult to guarantee. Organic fertilizers may be processed in a factory, or, in the case of manure and compost, at a farm.
Organic fertilizers break down according to natures rules, so they may not release nutrients as soon as you need them. You have to be patient  you wont see improvement overnight. In fact, you may actually see a deficiency in your plants during the first couple of months until the first application breaks down. Hang in there! Youll most definitely be rewarded.
Nutrient ratios are often unknown, and the overall percentage is lower than chemical fertilizers. However, some organic products are actually higher in certain nutrients.


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 25, 2013)

Hi guys "n" gal.
Imma keep it short and sweet cos i cannot be bothered with this ...
My compost pile consists of Lawn Clippings and Leaves never been fed any chemicals 
Worm bins fed with Organic Vegetables and lawn clippings x2 
1 bin is (N) only the other is (P) and (K) :hubba:
And of course my bubble teas come from both the compost pile and worm bins ! 
The only other product i use is kelp meal and Fish emulsion which is OMRI approved !

Now can't we talk about HPS vs CFL again ...Its always the same kinda debate (it never ends) ! 
Personally i hate the taste of buds from dealers that use chemicals and don't flush !
And Drfever there are no animals products in my feeding schedules.
I love organics for flavour and having free nutrients and great plants JMO :icon_smile:

More anecdotally, committed tea users say that the microbes in compost tea help break up impacted soils, clean up toxic chemicals, and greatly cut down on the need for added fertilizers. Some results are remarkable: John Evans, winner of numerous Guinness World Records for giant vegetables, used only compost tea to grow his 19-lb. carrot and 75-lb. Swiss chard.

Edit: And our very own great barrier reef is dying due to chemicals leaching into rivers from cash cropper farmers who only think of themselves and create algae blooms and kill the envioronment 
It is proven !  hxxp://sitemaker.umich.edu/gc2sec7labgroup3/pollution


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## WeedHopper (Feb 25, 2013)

Whats the best way to make yur compost bin? I was gonna use a big trash can and drill holes in it. Will that work? Dont want no freaken rats and cats messen around my Compost.


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 25, 2013)

:ciao: Weedhopper 

I was looking at buying a compost tumbler but the cost is a bit out of my league 

In saying that ..I ventured to youtube and found some really interesting ideas on how to  

It is simple and a hell of alot cheaper imo! 
You only require a few 2x4 timbers and a 44gal drum and a steel pole or PVC pipe to insert through the center of the drum to rotate it !

I googled DIY Compost tumbler and ended up at youtube  
I have everything required to build one ...but i gotta get of the bong for a while and get it done ! 

Here's an idea for you i also recommend leaving enough room underneath it so a wheelbarrow can fit under it and empty it ! 
I would also recommend a dark colour as this helps the breakdown of the material compost faster !
Total cost for my items was $48.95c and i also recommend using a food grade bin not chemical due to chemicals leaching into the plastic and causing further problems .

All the best and take care !


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 25, 2013)

yeah, i'll be doing a DIY tumbler when i move. currently, i just dont have anywhere to put one.


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## WeedHopper (Feb 25, 2013)

So ya dont need any holes in it?


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 25, 2013)

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> So ya dont need any holes in it?


i would put a 4" breezeway on each side, and cover it with a screen. you deff want air flow for when its just sitting and cooking.


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## WeedHopper (Feb 25, 2013)

Thats what I figured. Cool


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 25, 2013)

i also read that you have to keep your eye on compost tumblers. they have a tendency to overheat. when cooking compost there are 3 stages to the cooking process. each stage has a temp range that you want to keep your pile within in order for it to cook properly. i'll be adding a thermometer to my tumbler.


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## WeedHopper (Feb 26, 2013)

This guys is great.

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1kqGxPBUH9g


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## Rosebud (Feb 26, 2013)

I am going to step out of this thread as I don't think I am learning anything new and ya'll know how i feel. Just wanted to say to Fever, that in responce to your statement about the plant doesn't know the difference... I say, does your body know the difference from drinking tang and eating an orange? Does your body know the difference from man made high fructose corn syrup from sugar? Like I said, it is a life style. Good luck to you.


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## pcduck (Feb 26, 2013)

Dr.Fever said:
			
		

> If you could ask your plants the same question, you&#8217;d find out that at the most basic level, they really can&#8217;t tell the difference &#8211; nutrients are nutrients.



Studies have been done providing data showing, that roots will grow towards an organic source faster and larger. _Roots Demystified_ by Robert Kourik, _Teaming with Microbes_ by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis, and _Building Soils Naturally Innovative Methods for Organic Gardeners _by Phil Nauta. There is more info and in detail explaining the difference with enzymes and acids that are affected.



			
				Dr.Fever said:
			
		

> The words &#8220;organic&#8221; or &#8220;natural&#8221; in this case simply means that the product is only minimally processed, and the nutrients remain bound up in their natural forms, rather than being extracted and refined.



In many places as little as 15% needs to be organic to be labeled as such. That is why you need to see the OMRI approval.



			
				Dr.Fever said:
			
		

> Organic fertilizers break down according to nature&#8217;s rules, so they may not release nutrients as soon as you need them. You have to be patient &#8211; you won&#8217;t see improvement overnight.



But is it not a nature plant that we are growing? So why not let nature do her thing as the plant is in control and will take what it needs. The grower just needs to be informed enough to know what they want.

Use AACT's teas and one is able to see improvement "overnight" ime.

Organic gardening is a way of life.  And when I use organic methods I feel like I am doing my little bit in improving the environment and the soil food web.

It is your prerogative to use what best suits your needs and some chemical nutes are not all that bad, but I would only use them as a last resort.


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## jmansweed (Feb 26, 2013)

I've done numerous, accurate tests with organic vs. chemical/synthetic nutrients. You guy's can read some in the "Nute Study" thread if your interested.

Dr. Fever, I have run multiple organic farms in my day. The process of OMRI certification (and many independent certifiers) inspections is beyond simply insuring the level of processing - specifically in terms of nutrients. There are typically multiple requirements to achieve the certification, including the amount of chemicals and synthetic processed nutrients used (there is a negligible amount allowed), but also how much the farm is supporting the natural ecological system. Your 100% correct in that it is not the same process for food items, but I'm not sure it should be?

Importantly, it is typically the pH balancing required when developing synthetic nutrients that produces most of the ill effects we see. EXtracted and refined strong acids are often utilized and dangerous to the environment and microbial life - plain and simple.

Organic fertilization is a process, it is a system of decay releasing and sequestering nutrients much like ocean tides. Rather than the moon and gravity being the applied force however, it is the demands of microbial life and associated organisms, like plants. With rich organic soil, there is no waiting for nutrients to become available - that is a signal of a poorly prepared medium.

Plants absorb nutrients according to things like soil organic matter, temperature, atmospheric pressure and intricate environmental changes. They don't wait for nature to provide. It is a far more global symbiosis occurring, one exposing the interwoven simplicity of life on the level we as organic cannabis growers are taking advantage of. Plants release enzymes to attract specific microbes with specific nutrients according to it's growth stage and environmental (seasonal) atmosphere. Provided a properly balanced mix of organic matter is available then said microbe exists with said nutrient and the plant achieves the goal. Microbial life, typically lacks the ability to produce energy and utilizes the plants energy production to generate life processes. This energy is stored in a packet of sorts, called ATP and exchanged for the nutrient. I'll spare us the intimate details but it's important to understand organic soil mixes provide equally as efficient nutrients as synthetics, it's only a matter of providing the right ingredients. 

With organic nutrients, levels are known fairly accurately, all of my nutrients come with N-P-K ratios I rely on. And with accurate records its even easy to predict at home compost and teas etc. 

Synthetic and chemically produced nutrients do indeed have adverse effects on the environment. It's foolish to say they don't. This is a proven and studied fact and these days, there is no mystery at all. Simply google the subject or stroll through and Iowa corn field. These types of nutrients, although effective, eliminate diversity on a massive ecological scale. Again, I'll spare us the details but the research has been thoroughly put forth at this point.

In terms of what to use for your cannabis? Of coarse thats all about grower priorities and opinions but the proof about environmental standards is beyond  question. Organic methodology is far and away the more environmentally responsible way to grow.


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## Rosebud (Feb 26, 2013)

very good post. 

You nute study was so good, i should read it again. Thank you jmansweed.


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## WeedHopper (Feb 26, 2013)

Nice read.
Me and the Wife just started our 1st Compost.
Gonna build me a Tubbler type pretty soon.

I remember when I was a kid living in Cali,,,we lived on the fields in housing. Airplanes would come over while we were playing outside and Cropdust. That stuff would go all over us(me and my sis).  Course we didnt know crap about those things back then.We were just lucky it didnt happen to often. Mostly cause we moved back home to Texas.


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## pcduck (Feb 27, 2013)

WeedHopper...You ever give any thoughts to a worm bin? or Bokashi?

These can be done indoors with little space.


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## WeedHopper (Feb 27, 2013)

pcduck said:
			
		

> WeedHopper...You ever give any thoughts to a worm bin? or Bokashi?
> 
> These can be done indoors with little space.


 
Yeah,,my Grandaddy use to raise worms. Im thinking about it.


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 28, 2013)

pcduck said:
			
		

> The grower just needs to be informed enough to know what they want.
> 
> Use AACT's teas and one is able to see improvement "overnight" ime.
> 
> Organic gardening is a way of life.  And when I use organic methods I feel like I am doing my little bit in improving the environment .


 
:goodposting: :yeahthat:

And jman that was a good read as well.
 :48:


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## DrFever (Feb 28, 2013)

I copied and pasted this from a soil testing  site When using organic nutrient sources&#8212;for example, compost, manure, 
green manures, meals, and so 
forth&#8212;recommendations for crop 
nutrient needs will need to be translated. Soil test reports do not give 
specific recommendations for using 
organic fertilizers/amendments. This 
is because the percentage and availability of plant nutrients in such materials is highly variable and usually 
depends on its source, method of 
storage, and the amount and type of 
materials used to make the nutrient 
source. Generally, the low nutrient 
content and often limited sources of 
many organic materials add to the 
difficulty in developing a specific 
recommendation.
 I would think this is because  they cannot  guarantee how much of NPK  is in any manure or meal added there fore most organic additives are amendments not FERTILIZER 
 Balance and Imbalance of 
Nutrients in Organic 
Nutrient Sources
An unbalanced plant-nutrient status 
can be the result of using either 
organic or inorganic fertilizers. 
Most organic materials (including 
compost) do not contain nutrients 
in balanced amounts as needed by 
plants. In particular, many nutrients 
from animal sources (e.g., manure) 
have an excess of phosphorus and 
potassium relative to plant demand 
for nitrogen. In soil these nutrients 
can accumulate to levels exceeding 
crop needs with repeated application based on plant nitrogen needs. 
When using organic materials, 
regularly soil test to monitor phosphorus, potassium, and salt accumulation. Nutrient amendments should 
also be tested regularly, as similar 
organic materials may vary considerably in nutrient content depending on their source, handling, and 
conditions present when the plant 
or organism was living. The use of 
other sources of plant nutrients may 
be necessary to correct imbalances 
(for example, legume green manure crops that contribute nitrogen 
without increasing phosphorus and 
potassium).


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## DrFever (Feb 28, 2013)

Nutrient Availability from 
Organic Nutrient Sources
Suggested amounts of organic 
amendments or fertilizers to be applied in lieu of chemical or inorganic fertilizers may or may not be 
equally effective because of differences in the physical and chemical 
nature of organic materials. Most 
nutrients from organic materials are 
very slowly to slowly available to 
plants compared to inorganic fertilizers. Tables 2 and 3 give a general 
rating on the availability of many 
organic materials. Materials rated 
&#8220;very slow&#8221; to &#8220;medium&#8221; in nutrient 
availability may be used to maintain 
a given level and nutrient balance 
in the soil. Where a rapid change in 
nutrient levels or balance is necessary, materials having &#8220;medium&#8221; to 
&#8220;rapid&#8221; nutrient availability should 
be used.


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 28, 2013)

Thanks Drfever,
 But for me and any other AACT "active airated compost tea" user most that
information is irrelevent because we feed the microbes !

The microbes will then pass on whatever elements we feed them!
I can bubble compost and gain plenty of nitrogen in my teas
I can add OMRI approved fish emulsion and ensure that the trace elements are covered !
Azomite if you wish ...Rock phos , kelp meal , oyster shell , Gauno's  and dozens more.
Its of no concern to me how much of what is in each item .
The microbes and the plant communicate together so i let them do all the work !
It still remains that its a lifestyle !
And for me its all about flavour and cheaper ways to grow as well  !
JMO

Hey Weedhopper take pcducks advice brother get a worm bin or 2 
I promise you will not turn back !


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 28, 2013)

Just to add : My friends uncle bought property in Australia for a crop adventure/living he paid $350,000 for an 80 acre property At best was a great deal yet when he put barley seed across 3 acres during a 6 day period nothing happened !

He wondered what could be the problem so he asked around a couple of neighbours and 1 neighbour informed him that it was previously a huge tomato crop farm !
This neighbour also informed him that he would do well to have soil testing done on the property.
He had numerous samples tested from the 80acres and was told that the soil would take upto 15yrs before it would be viable land again for any crop!

The end result was that the Tomato grower loaded the soil up with so many chemicals that nothing will grow on that land after he killed the soil !

All the best THC.


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## WeedHopper (Feb 28, 2013)

So according to that Doc,,,Nature doesnt know what its doing,, (Natures natural fertilizers) arnt balanced enough to do the job.

Yep TwoHighCrimes,,I plan on it.


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## jmansweed (Feb 28, 2013)

Hey Dr.  Most of whats copied and pasted is from a study conducted in 1972.   Fortunately, science has developed a better understanding of many ecological and elemental relationships in nature. To me more than anything, it describes an unbalanced soil structure through improper or over use of livestock waste and then mismanaged crop rotation. Building soil is indeed a process and it takes time. Synthetic/chemical fertilization eliminates the time by immediately releasing available nutrition. Eliminating the time however, does come at a cost. 

Lets expand the conversation for a moment. Consider basic life on a global scale. Essentially, the process of bringing inorganic matter into living organisms is first initiated through basic microbial life. Literally processing minerals and nutrition into living structure. Biochemically eroding stone into cell walls. This basic function of changing elements is important to understand. We can follow a molecule of Nitrogen for example - absorbed by bacteria, eaten by protozoa, consumed by nematodes and released as a usable form, then absorbed into a plant. An aphid draws fluid from the plant, the nitrogen now part of an aphid......see where I'm going? What we saturate the soil with has implications well beyond our grow rooms. It feeds all ecology.

Chemical/synthetic fertilizers are normally created through the chemical saturation of basic elements and acidic pH balancing. The nutrition is chelated, immediately available to the plant. However, much in the same way a testosterone steroid users testicles shrink (because of the flooded testosterone in the system), the microbial life will dwindle to irrelevance. This eliminates any natural ecological balancing capacity the soil maintained, leading to further synthetic implementations. After plants absorb the synthetically derived nutrition the residual chemicals used in processing also enter the ecological system. Many of these residual chemicals have dangerous implications. 

Cannabis specifically, absorbs chemical and metal contaminates very effectively, hence the reason Russia used the plant to help draw toxins from the soil around Chernobyl. The residual elements absorbed into our plants should not be ignored. EDTA for example, a chelating ingredient in Fox Farm, is considered an environmental hazard and poorly researched. We don't know what the implications are, yet many, many growers use this product with productive results. Productivity and the rate of productivity must be balanced with ecological responsibility and personal health in my opinion.

The early findings of chemical and synthetic fertilization often disregarded the environmental effects the solutions may have. One must put into context what we're reading. Indeed, the study explains the complications with measuring organic matter at the time. It also clearly promotes synthetic fertilization as the faster alternative. This is a science much improved in the last 40 years.  

Measuring organic matter is more about the available organic carbon. This is done through testing a soil sample using heat, and measuring the carbon burned off or CO2. Organic matter has constants, most current studies put typical ratios at 100 Carbon to 10 Nitrogen to 1.5 Sulfer to 1.5 Phosphorus. This means we can get a measurement of these nutrients through measuring only the carbon. Much in the same we we only measure the positive anions rather then negative cations when determining pH - it is a known constant. 

When commercial soils reliant on organic matter work slowly, it primarily is a result of mismanaged soil, often initiated through chemical/synthetic fertilization and pesticide use in the first place. For most organic growers, the decision to do so is beyond our preferences in the grow room. It is our choice to embrace a system of ecology created through evolution and time. In my experiences, once an individual balances soil organic matter, environment and plant health, organic methodology has proven more effective.

Even when controlling runoff and/or maintaining strict environments, ultimately the contaminates in chemical/synthetic fertilizers enter the ecosystem. Perhaps they are absorbed into our lungs when we smoke the dried product? Or maybe left to decompose with fan leaves and stems. The synthetically salty soil must be disposed of - churning the chemically derived nutrients back into the soil. It makes it back one way or the other. With organics, my soil is used again, sometimes in new grows, sometimes for my vegetable garden but all of remains healthy and organic. :icon_smile:


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## Locked (Feb 28, 2013)

Thanks for that Jman....


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## WeedHopper (Feb 28, 2013)

Nice read Jman.


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## DrFever (Mar 1, 2013)

When commercial soils reliant on organic matter work slowly, it primarily is a result of mismanaged soil, often initiated through chemical/synthetic fertilization and pesticide use in the first place. For most organic growers, the decision to do so is beyond our preferences in the grow room. It is our choice to embrace a system of ecology created through evolution and time. In my experiences, once an individual balances soil organic matter, environment and plant health, organic methodology has proven more effective.

 Building organic matter is a slow process. First, the amount of residue and active organic matter will increase. Gradually, the species and diversity of organisms in the soil will change, and amounts of stabilized organic matter will rise. It may take a decade or more for total organic matter levels to significantly increase after a management change. Fortunately, the beneficial effects of the changes appear long before organic matter levels rise. These improvements, however, can be reversed in a year or two by returning to previous practices.

Why does it take so long for organic matter levels to increase? An acre of soil six inches deep weighs about 1000 tons, so increasing the proportion of organic matter from two to three percent is actually a 10 ton change. However, you cannot simply add 10 tons of manure or residue and expect to measure a one percent increase in soil organic matter. Only ten to twenty percent of the original material becomes part of the soil organic matter. Much of the rest is converted over several years into carbon dioxide.


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## pcduck (Mar 1, 2013)

> Why does it take so long for organic matter levels to increase?


 The organic level increases immediately when using compost/sheet mulching/and the likes. What takes awhile is for the bacteria and fungi to reappear in ample amounts to sustain the soil without the use of amendments. This is where the 10 years come in, but you will see_* Fortunately, the beneficial effects of the changes appear long before organic matter levels rise. *_



> Only ten to twenty percent of the original material becomes part of the soil organic matter. Much of the rest is converted over several years into carbon dioxide.



Once the fungi returns this act like a sponge and absorbs the water and locks up the CO2 not allowing it to disperse  rapidly. Of course some does get released back into the atmosphere but slowly.Using no-till really reduces this release. Not like chems that burn up the organic matter so rapidly that most if not all the CO2 is released back into the atmosphere.

That and many soil tests are not capable to test for organic matter. That is why 2 tests are needed the base saturation test and the Reams test.


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## WeedHopper (Mar 1, 2013)

Doesnt look like this is ever gonna end.


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## jmansweed (Mar 1, 2013)

http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/cropsystems/components/7402_02.html  -  How bout some of your own opinions Dr.? - I'm 100% down with having an informed discussion on organics and synthetic fertilization. It is a subject I have studied for literally years of my life, including conducting numerous tests and so forth - it interests me greatly and I appreciate the post. 

I'm equally capable of copying and pasting data - and thats important to back up the experiences I discuss - however, tossing data into the mix (clearly not from your own experiences) does not help any of us further the conversation. I can google that info just as easily. What I can't do is find out what has worked or not worked for you in your grow. Thats really what we're all interested in. I suppose I can't speak for everyone, and shouldn't, but in my opinion, hearing your experiences with organics and synthetics would be far more interesting than reading another pasted blog of info.

Don't get me wrong. I like looking at sited articles and would appreciate the links. 

In regards to the last information - The issue with organic matter in modern  agriculture is that we eliminated it in the first place. Building matter and soil revitalization is a much understood process and we're perfectly capable of accomplishing that and yes, those things take time. The same _time_ I referred to earlier, the _time_ that synthetic and chemical fertilization eliminates. 

That is my point. Time equates to wisdom. Wisdom in this sense, enacted by nature and global ecology or environmental change. When we add chemical and or synthetic fertilizers we eliminate the time needed to normally provide properly balanced organic matter. This obviously is seen as a benefit by many - but at what cost? The residual chemicals from production absolutely shed somewhere and these are solutions nature has yet to mix without human ingenuity.

Healthy soil, global microbial life and stone are the largest sequestering factors of CO2 on the planet. Carbon (CO2) is crucial to all life and indeed much of it is converted into gases and shed from organic matter. It is also absorbed and stored within soil and stone throughout the entire globe. The carbon cycle is amazing to investigate and learn from.

Really it comes down to what works best for our grow methodology. In my situation, organics have far and away proven more effective at growing my product. I find improved taste, stronger THC percentages and a smoother smoke overall. I've had fantastic synthetic grows in my past, but nothing that trumps my organic grows and the tree hugger in me likes the fact I have stepped away from a rather destructive industry. 

Nutrient production, organic and synthetic can be a nasty industry. For example, some years back I wrote an article about Marine based nutrients and had to do a bit of research. Nutrients have enabled the fishing industry to justify keeping almost all the by-catch (sea life caught in nets in addition to the targeted species). By-catch is simply slurried into a solution, doused with acid and aged until the consumer purchases it. This means many, many species, including endangered and totally non-edibles have some value. 

Another example would be Miracle grow - residual fuel waste is often processed into Nitrogen. Literally adding carbon from spent coal to the mix. Independent testing companies found trifluralin in MG soil. A cancer causing herbicide and non-listed ingredient. A company worth billions of dollars because their product eliminates the _time_. It also adds toxin to the planet every time a new bag is processed. At some point, the environmental costs need context.

The fertilizer industry is ripe with irresponsible practices and misguided advertisement often encouraging the consumer to ignorantly apply poorly researched and sometimes downright dangerous toxins to our soil, and eventually ourselves. In my opinion, regardless of your fertilization choices, independently research the ingredients and its' production methods first. When the facts are researched it's difficult for me to justify using many fertilizers available.


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## ShOrTbUs (Mar 1, 2013)

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> Doesnt look like this is ever gonna end.



as long as it stays civil, like it has. i wish it would go on forever.


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## HighBrixMMJ (Mar 14, 2013)

on another note I would like to add that I am an organic grower and do not use any chemical pesticides, I have recently came into a great product made up of diomatacieous earth called tanlin, its totally organic and has an OMRI rating. It is fairly expensive but works well. It was developed to battle the sciriad fly, or more commonly known as the fungus gnat. It works by watering into the soil, or by foliar feeding. When any insect, be it hard bodied or soft bodied, tries to ingest any part of the plant, it(tanlin) is turned to a crystalyzed form in their stomachs and intestines and literally slices them to pieces killing them dead. There is no way for the insect to adapt and become immune to this as again it is not a chemical and is 100% organic. Just tryin to pass some info on to my fellow organic growers who were not aware of this wonderful product. In the past I would rather scrap a grow, than put chemical fertilizers on it. After all I plan on ingesting this, just like my food, i want nothing but organic. If we were meant to function and grow with chemicals then god wouldve made us to do so, same goes for plants or anything that is alive in nature. Having had cancer and beat it already, I am very cautious now about what goes into my body! I guess thats just the tree hugger in me tho! LMAO, And as for the great lakes... I grew up on lake huron, My father was a charter captain and I grew up fishing that lake my whole life, pcduck is right about the algae blooms and the dead fishin zones, we have seen a major decline in the salmon fishing industry in Lake Huron. I remember as a kid catching 30-40 pound salmon on the regular, any given day, its not like that anymore. Were lucky to catch a 15 pounder nowadays. often going days without a single catch. Its been tested and proven that chemical fertilizers play a huge role in this decline. Its just a matter of time before that fishery is dead! Just another reason to go organic. just look at the overall health of americans, its all due to chemically processed food, and preservitives, including chemical pesticides sprayed on our plants, and chemical nutrients used to grow these as well. Most of us ingest these on a daily basis. Literally kiling hundreds of thousands of people each year, now common sense should tell you which is better. chemicals and cancer, or natural and organic? for me theres no question, cancer is a scary scary thing, and until it hits home for you, you will probably continue to ingest chemicals. Its people like us organic growers that are making a difference. I am so proud to be one of these growers. I may have to work a lil harder to see results, but in the end the trade off isnt even plauseable to me! I would never trade a bigger or faster harvest over the future of our planet, or my own health....period!


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## WeedHopper (Mar 14, 2013)

Im growing my outside Vegie Garden this year with Organics. Cant wait to see how it goes.


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## Rosebud (Mar 14, 2013)

It is so rewarding to slice your own organic tomato knowing it didn't cost 5.00 and tastes fabulous.  Enjoy, you are a natural for organics WH.


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## WeedHopper (Mar 14, 2013)

Thanks Rose. Cant wait. I love the smell of fresh Tomatoes.


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## Ruffy (Jul 3, 2013)

well the first page was enough to not read the rest.
imo organics will produce as much bud, slightly better taste, less harsh.
any organics ive grown compared to my buddies stuff or st. weed, is never the same.
I grow killer veg in my garden using the same kinda stuff, I love the taste, its just more pleasant knowing your smoking clean. or eating green.
also a lot of growers do it for the $$ =huge steroid pumped buds. they don't care, its also very easy access to chems.
I do it for me, my patients & the love of the plant, its not a rush for me to grow, I enjoy every moment. ive been growing steady for 2.5 yrs and ive not had 1 bug issue, why? cause im clean!!! not a lazy stoner doing it for the $$. the last 6 months I have not sprayed anything (neem) and no bugs, I just did few weeks ago cause its summer, you never know.
don't panic, its organic!


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## Ruffy (Jul 3, 2013)

Rosebud said:
			
		

> Exactly, I don't care which tastes better or gives a better yield. It is a way of life. You don't just say i will grow organic and do it. Takes a long time for compost to become compost.


 
mine took 4 yrs, its a 4'x4' x3' filled with, rock phosphate, and all the cycles of the outdoors. water, and layering and this yr I put the whole bin, worth of killer black ewc all over my gardens. the plants love it

this guy talks a lot but is a great organic grower with good neat tips
hvvp://youtu.be/MEkFFRjDkvs


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