# BioThrive/PH



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 21, 2009)

So, like lots of people here, I got the free samples from General Organics and I will be using them this grow on plants in coco, and plants in FFOF soil, to kind of do a comparison. So far (week 2 or so), I have been feeding the coco plants every day for the last week, about 1/2 of what GO's feeding schedule says. The soil plants are only getting BioRoot, BioWeed, and CalMg, no BioThrive yet since the soil is so rich.
I have been feeding the coco plants every day, and they look good but are a very bright green compared to the soil plants, I'm guessing this is because they need more Nitrogen, and the cation exchange of coco? Anyways, I am going to up my feedings of the BioThrive Grow for the coco plants.
Ok, so now that I've rambled way away from where I was going... 
Here's the deal, I've noticed on GO's feeding schedule, they say not to adjust PH after mixing. When I've mixed up my solutions, it seems like the more 'Grow' I add, the lower my ph sinks. At about 1/2 strengh with the other additives, in evaporated tapwater, it was at around 5.8.
Since I'm just feeding the coco plants with this solution right now, I figure I'm ok since they should be closer to a hydro pH. But what is going to happen when I feed my soil plants with this same solution, maybe even at a higher ppm which will likely be an even lower pH due to more 'Grow' in the mix?
I realize adding a pH down/up is probably going to kill any kind of beneficials in my mix so that is out. Just wondering what your experience has been with these nutrients either in soil or coco. I read Jmansweed's nute study and it was very helpful,  I'm just looking for a bit more specific info on pH.


----------



## meds4me (Dec 21, 2009)

Read MassP's "hempy buckets" thread on the use of coco and nutes ~


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 21, 2009)

Good info there, I've read thru that a few times. This time I'm looking for info specific to General Organic's line of nutrients, and specifically want more info from people here who have used it in soil/coco.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 22, 2009)

hmmmm I didn't see where it said to not adjust PH...I've been using it on one plant in FFOF, and I adjusted for the PH (mine dropped to)  I probably killed everything worthwhile...duh....where did it say not to adjust?

Also Earth Juice makes an organic PH adjuster...maybe we need something like that.  I haven't used it, but Dirty Old South put up a pic of it in an old thread, when someone was questioning adding chem adjusters to organic grows.

Sorry I didn't really help ya, lol...but you may have inadvertantly helped me..lol.  I'll be watching this thread.  I can't believe I didn't read that in the book...or maybe I did, and spaced it....

I also had a conversation with an organic growing guru on the subject of adding chem ferts to soil, and he said that it doesn't necessarily kill all the micro organisms, it just doesn't give them the optimal environment to thrive...now I don't know how true this is either, but I generally trust this guy, and he was growing way back when jesus was trimming buds...he knows his stuff. IMO


----------



## jmansweed (Dec 22, 2009)

Hey Dr MB, GO does claim to be pH balanced. Both the grow and bloom are somewhat buffered in regards to soil. Although the pH drops initially the bacterial life that will thrive as a result of soil interaction should maintain decent numbers raising the pH gradually. I found GO is actually N strong under soil conditions. It has a ton of cane sugar in it feeding the microbial life. I know it can be hard trusting the solution to have the results your hoping for but I found GO to be solid at keeping the proper pH without much help. Mixing a tea can asist balancing things out prior to application and adding molasses can help "high pH" bacteria bloom. This could be helpful under the acidic coco conditions. 

Legalize, I agree with your buddy that many synthetic nutreints do not completely kill soil life - Advanced Nutreints is a good example of this. This applies to a number of pH balancing items also. There are a number of chem based pH solutions that can interact with microbial life effectively. IMO the majority of chem fertilizers do however, have an adverse effect on soil life. Best of luck........


----------



## umbra (Dec 22, 2009)

Well I'm one who is using GO nutes. My FFOF soil has 25% to 40% coco mixed in it. I have had very little issue with ph. Full strength is a little hot for fresh seedlings, but more than that I have had no issues. I have not ph adjusted the GO solution. I do have dolomite lime mixed in with the soil, and I add the cal/mag, so buffering is more than enough.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 22, 2009)

Hey guys...thanks for the info Jman, that is basically what my buddy said that it is not optimal to use the chems on the microbial life.

I can't find in the book where it says not to adjust ph, I see one place that says to ph bad water before adding ferts is all...where did you see this?  I'm not trying to argue, lol...I just can't find the info.


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 22, 2009)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> I can't find in the book where it says not to adjust ph, I see one place that says to ph bad water before adding ferts is all...where did you see this?  I'm not trying to argue, lol...I just can't find the info.


I noticed it on the side notes of the feeding schedule on their site. The idea of not having to adjust my solutions is exciting to say the least! - hXXp://www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/feeding_charts/GO_MYSF-FeedChart.pdf

LF- what is this book you speak of? Did it come with the nutrient samples you got?

Jmans+Umbra- Sounds like you guys have had great results 'as-is' so I will follow along. Adding some Dolomite Lime sounds like a good idea for my next transplant.
The way I'm understanding it is, even if my solution is a bit low (under 6.0) the buffering effect will take place in the soil when the solution reacts with all the beneficials in the soil. Am I correct?
Thanks as always for any help everybody :farm:


----------



## jmansweed (Dec 22, 2009)

Dr MB, I think you got it right. Dolomites a good idea IMO. Let us know how it goes..............


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 22, 2009)

I didn't look at their website...lol, I guess I should.  So from now on I should just feed the nute solution a little on the low side, and the soil will buffer it, am I understanding this right?...or have I already screwed it up by using the chemical adjusters?

Dr Manny, yes I got a little booklet with my nutes, a GO product catalog, basically a description of all the Organic line, with a feeding schedule in the back of it.  It doesn't say anything about not PH adjustments other than adjusting your water before adding nutes if the water is "problimatic"  I guess I should visit the web site...I thought I had all I needed here with the directions on the bottles, and the feeding schedule they sent me.


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 22, 2009)

Thank you Jmansweed, after reading your 'nute study' thread I'm sure these nutes are going to work out, I just need to dial in my setup a bit it sounds like. So, how much Dolomite Lime is a good starting point? I remember reading something that recommended about 1 Tablespoon per gallon of soil, is that too much?

Umbra, if you are still following this, I am interested in hearing more on your soil/coco mix and how often you are watering/feeding, container size etc. Do you have a journal going of any current grows with this setup? I'm thinking of maybe trying a soil/coco mix next round depending on how my current grow turns out and would appreciate any info you could give me.

LF- I knew it! I got jipped outta the book! Oh well, still stoked on all the free nutes :hubba: One thing I like about GO compared to FF is the schedule actually somewhat matches up with the recommended feedings on the bottle, way less guessing for a newb like me. 

Has anybody cracked into the BioMarine yet? Wheeeew! That stuff definitely gets the prize for worst-smelling additive! I'm thinking of using a solution of that stuff to marinate my bait next time I go crabbing. It would kill!


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 22, 2009)

LOL...Yeah...man stinks up the whole room...I bet that would work for catfishing to!...lol

Sorry to hear you didn't get the book, well more like a pamphlet, it's really not much man, basically the website, on paper..your not missing anything important.

So let me get this straight then I already add dolemite lime to my soil, so was Jman saying not to use the ph adjusters, and just let the soil do it's thing, because I think I had like 5.7 or something close to that after mixing it up in a gallon of RO water...the soil and lime will adjust it?


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 23, 2009)

legalize_freedom said:
			
		

> LOL...Yeah...man stinks up the whole room...I bet that would work for catfishing to!...lol
> 
> Sorry to hear you didn't get the book, well more like a pamphlet, it's really not much man, basically the website, on paper..your not missing anything important.
> 
> So let me get this straight then I already add dolemite lime to my soil, so was Jman saying not to use the ph adjusters, and just let the soil do it's thing, because I think I had like 5.7 or something close to that after mixing it up in a gallon of RO water...the soil and lime will adjust it?


I believe that is what he is saying. I think maybe it's more beneficial to just go with the flow and not adjust pH in this case. Any kind of adjustment would actually be harmful to the mix, and the mix will adjust itself once it reacts with all the stuff in the soil. That's what I'm getting anyways 
So far, my coco 1 gallon bags have rooted like a mofo, I see roots poking thru every hole in the grow bags. The soil plants are bigger with more foliage, but not as rooted.
But... the coco plants are getting fed every day, the soil plants are really only getting water and had one feeding of BioRoot etc... Not the best 'test' I know, but somewhere in here I'm hoping to find my combination of mediums and nutrients, maybe a mixture of soil/coco with these nutes would be pretty nice.


----------



## jmansweed (Dec 23, 2009)

Hey guys - Your on track w/ the pH. I would not adjust it unless you start to experience problems. The soil life should balance things out with proper nutreint applications. I found GO's schedule is on point other than the Bloom and Grow. It sounds like you've seen my recommendations any how. 

Your Dolomite amounts sound good. Even with excessive amounts, Dolomite usually stabilizes around pH 7. Don't get me wrong, you can over do it. A little goes a long way. 

I use the Bio Marine for my mothers. I like the N-P-K ratio and the more chelated minerals it provides. The stuff works well - It does stink though........


----------



## BBFan (Dec 23, 2009)

Great thread and great info.  A really enjoyable read.

Thanks guys.


----------



## OldHippieChick (Dec 23, 2009)

WOW - obviously I've been screwing up - I missed that on their website.... and have been adjusting up. Can I pick your brains some more to make sure I'm on track? 

Are you using the nutes every other watering? If so, I'd assume you adjust your ph to 6.4 (soil) for the pure watering? And are you using full strength once past seedlings ? In steps? Thanks guys!
OHC


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 23, 2009)

OHC...yes to everything you asked, and I was doing it the same way, as I didn't see where we shouldn't adjust ph on their website.  I think I'm going to go get the organic PH adjusters that DOS showed a pic of a few weeks ago that were made by earth juice.  Because my nute solution was like a full point low I believe.  But it does make sense not to add the chems to the mix, cause it would seem to be counterproductive to the microbial life.  I may just flower these girls that I have going now in the FoxFarm lineup, and wait and use the GO stuff on the clones, cause I have already added chems to the mix, I'm thinking I would have to rebuild the soil structure again, and since I'm a week into flowering, I don't know if it would be worth the time.


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 23, 2009)

OldHippieChick said:
			
		

> Are you using the nutes every other watering? If so, I'd assume you adjust your ph to 6.4 (soil) for the pure watering? And are you using full strength once past seedlings ? In steps? Thanks guys!
> OHC


Hey OHC, you will probably get some more experienced opinions, but here's mine.
The bottles say to feed every watering, so that's what I've been doing with my coco plants, feeding everyday according to the schedule. Started off at 1/4 but quickly moved up to full strength and they are at around week 2 now, started a week or so ago. The soil plants I am only feeding with the Cal/Mg+, BioRoot, and BioWeed which in my evaporated tapwater buffers itself to around 6.5. On plain watering days for the soil plants, I have been using adjusted distilled as I don't really have a way around that yet. I will start feeding them here in the next week so then the 'Grow' nute will hopefully buffer my water and no more adjusting. Next grow I will add Dolomite Lime to the soil and hopefully that will be sufficient, and my plain water wont need any adjusting right from the start.


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 23, 2009)

Ok, well after I mixed up my solution today at full strength + Diamond Black, it was at 5.5...
So, I talked to a guy at GH and he asked if I was adding the base nutrient (Grow) to the mix first and then adding in my additives. I wasn't, I was just going by the schedule and mixing the Root first and going down the line. He says the BioRoot has a pH down in the 3's so that is probably my problem.
I did a second mix to test his theory, this time in distilled since I didn't have any evaporated tap water handy. I started with the 'Grow' and made the same mix as earlier, with the Diamond Black.... and ended up at 5.3. 
So, tomorrow I'm going to try it again with no DB, maybe it is throwing the whole thing off. I will mix precisely according to the schedule, base nutrient first, and see where I come out.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 23, 2009)

Thanks for the info...I was adding the DB to, so maybe that is what was bringing mine down...so ad the base nute, first and it should level out...cool thanks man.

Also Jman...thanks for your help to bud!  Much appriciated!


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 24, 2009)

So, after checking my pH pen and measuring everything out here's what I came out with-

Started with tapwater evaporated for 24+hours with air stone

Tapwater.......................7.3
add BioThrive Grow........5.5
add BioRoot...................5.37
add Ca/Mg+...................5.17
add BioWeed..................5.17

So, I'm stumped. I guess I will feed the coco girls with just the 'Grow' until I can get some more info from GH.

These samples did ship in cold weather but weren't frozen when I got them. Maybe they got too cold?

Jmansweed, do you recall what kind of pH readings were you getting with full strength veg week 2?


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 29, 2009)

I talked to GH again and they said what I should do is raise my pH first, let it sit and stabilize for a bit and then add nutrients, 'Grow' first.
I asked about adding chemical up/down to the mix and they said they 'thought' that was ok as long as you did it first and let it sit for a half hour or so to level out.
So, I did just that and ended up at around 5.5, I'd like to be a bit higher, so next time will adjust accordingly. They did explain to me exactly what Jmansweed said earlier in this thread, that if your solution is a little low the beneficials will take care of raising it to acceptable levels in the soil. 5.5-6.3 should be ok I was told. I'm gonna add a little Dolomite Lime to the soil next run and I should be good. Thanks all :farm:


----------



## OldHippieChick (Dec 29, 2009)

Thank you for the research - my plant doesn't look so good on the GO - but will go back to adjusting the ph up to 6.4.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 29, 2009)

Yeah I went back to the full foxfarm line up on mine for now until I do some more research on it, get some organic ph adjusters.  I just don't want to screw this one up, I just started flowering 2 weeks ago, so I'm going to run with what I know for right now, I will mess with the GO with the clones from these ones.  Thanks for the info though.


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 30, 2009)

OHC- I noticed the GO isn't as strong as the FF I was using and my plants looked underfed at anything less than full-strength. I'm at 125% strength now in coco and the one I'm still feeding with the GO looks alot better than it did.

LF- I had to do the same thing due to my lack of info on the pH adjusting. So my GO/FF comparison will have to wait until next time. I do still have one plant in coco I'm using the GO line on and it looks good but is way behind its sisters that are in soil and not being fed atm. I'm thinking of trying a 70/30 soil/coco mix next time in two buckets and doing an actual side-by-side comparison with the 2 lines of ferts then.


----------



## legalize_freedom (Dec 30, 2009)

I was thinking of doing the same thing,(side by side w/clones from same mother) not with the coco though.  I was just thinking about running the GO with a good soil mix, and not adding any chems at all, and then do my regular thing with the FF lineup.  I have been using the cal mag that GO sent though with my FF stuff, only because I ran out of my other stuff....hey it's free...lol.  I did notice that the plants I had started running the GO on the bottom leaves had started yellowing awfully fast, but I don't want to blame the nutes as they may not have been being used to their full capacity when I added chem ph adjusters...I mean who knows what kind of beneficials I killed.  So I just flushed real good, and went back to my regular line up.  I'll let ya know when I start running my side by side...I need to do a little more planning, and reading first I think to be sure I got a 100% organic thing going though.


----------



## OldHippieChick (Dec 30, 2009)

Dr. Manny Bowles said:
			
		

> OHC- I noticed the GO isn't as strong as the FF I was using and my plants looked underfed at anything less than full-strength. I'm at 125% strength now in coco and the one I'm still feeding with the GO looks alot better than it did.


Thanks - I also have a under fed looking plant.... and to my shame, I didn't read to feed *every watering* so I am indebtet to you for pointing this out. I just got so brainwashed by reading to nute every OTHER watering by so many posts and articles all over the web, that it never occured to me to study the brochure and website. I have bad eye site and I was lazy . Lesson learned - I've spent hours reading on nutrient deficiency as payback .  I really was thinking I had nute block because I could see several deficiencies. I'm following your lead and upping my levels as well. THANK YOU FOR POSTING THIS !


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 30, 2009)

LF- Please keep us posted, I'm looking forward to seeing other peoples results from these nutrients good or not so good. I think FFOF and the GO line would be a very solid combination for an organic grow. I was thinking of adding coco to my soil because my roots seem to love it. I just transplanted my vegging plants yesterday and the coco one had about twice the root system as my soil girls but the actual plant is about half as bushy with minimal side growth, go figure. The coco plant is the one that's been getting the GO BioRoot so maybe that is contributing also. Somewhere in all this is going to be a combination that works well for me, I'm convinced of that. I just gotta work a little to find it :farm: 

OHC- I think we all kinda think to feed every other watering just because that's what other brands of fertilizers say to do. The instructions on the GO caught me off gaurd as well, especially the not pH'ing thing. When I upped the feedings, my plant bounced right back. I'm still not sure it's getting all it needs as it's in un-amended coco and just feeding on the liquid ferts so I'm going to keep upping it for now and see where it gets me. 
Let us know how it works out for you :bong1:


----------

