# sick satori



## next (Apr 29, 2015)

Hi MP,

IS this under fed, and having cal/mag issues? Looks like phosphorus cal/mag to me. Gave her plain r/o water with a little cal/mag, next watering was 

.7ml / L cal/mag = 1/2 dose			Satori 04/25 start of week 7
1ml/L molasses
1ml/L grow = 1/4 veg dose
.7ml/L pure blend tea
.7m/L EWC

I have left out microblast nutes, and supplemented with azomite. 

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## The Hemp Goddess (Apr 29, 2015)

I think they are deficient in more than one thing, literally starving to death--.7 ml per liter is almost no food at all.  There are 5 ml in a teaspoon, so you are talking like 1/7th of a teaspoon.  You must have to use a dropper to measure?  I would certainly be feeding at least close to full strength nutes for vegging plants this size.  Satori is a light feeder, so maybe not full strength, but at least close to it.  What kind of grow nutrients are you feeding them?  How often do you feed?


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## next (Apr 29, 2015)

Hey THG,

Grow nutes are Earth juice grow npk - 2-1-1, directions say 2ml/L for flowering, 4m/L for veg. They only get watered once every 5-6 days. Last week I did a plain r/o water with 1/4 dose cal/mag, before that I added some nutes every watering. Either bio-root, or EJ.

I will double up on the nutes next watering, unless she shows a major turn around in a few days. A normal dose from word of mouth is 1tbl spoon per gallon.
1 
What I did THG, was add a tablespoon into 14liters of solution.. just so happens that it worked out to .7ml roughly. No eye dropper


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## The Hemp Goddess (Apr 29, 2015)

Yes, get those nutes up. Do you have any kind of meter to measure ppms?


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## next (Apr 29, 2015)

Yes I do.. but I don't think it reads 100% with the organic nutes. 

With roughly a 1/4 dose of calmag it shows 100ppm, thats at .5ml/L. 

With the EJ Grow at 1ml/L which is again 1/4 dose, it reads only 30ppm.

It appears to give consistent readings, just that they seem quite low with the organic ferts. Do you have a recommendation for how many ppm's of cal/mag I should add? Do you think I should do like a 3/4 feed on her?


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## Droopy Dog (Apr 29, 2015)

You can easily double EJ reccs with no problem.:stoned:

Forget the PPM meter, it's useless with organics.

If you are only watering every 5+ days, do AT LEAST the recc dose if not a bit more, like 5ml/liter.

What you are doing is like putting someone on a 500 calorie/day diet and wondering why they look sickly.  :hitchair:

Light feeders or no, you are starving them!

DD


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## next (Apr 29, 2015)

Thank Droopy,

In my defense, this plant was all green and happy a week ago. I will try out a full dose, will start brewing it tonight.

Last grow I had to take it easy, I had added some herb & veggie mix that must of had alot of food in it, and looks like it has made me over cautious this round.


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## Rosebud (Apr 29, 2015)

Just stopped in to say good luck. I have never seen that in my satoris. They usually yellow at the end is all. She is a good plant, i bet you can pull her out of this..


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## next (Apr 29, 2015)

I think considering I gave her a 1/4 dose on the 25th she should be getting better instead of worse.. It happened so fast.. I seen slight yellowing like a cal/mag def, so I foliar sprayed her and the white widow with 1tsp epsom salt / liter of r/o water, as well as the 1/4 dose of EJ on the 25th. But things still heading south.

Thanks Rose, i'm sure she will survive.. and perhaps even thrive with the help and support of MP and some good ol time n sunshine oh and more nutes! :hitchair:

I admit I dropped the ball on this one..


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## next (Apr 29, 2015)

I am worried about the lack of sulfur in the nutes, do you see any sulfur def? - hmm looks like the molasses should be covering zinc and sulfur

Mixing up nute batch now.. cal-n-mag recommends 2.3ml/L for veg. I used 1ml/L and it has a ppm of 200. If I used a full dose it would have like 500ppm, seems too much to me.. am I wrong? How much cal-n-mag should I be using? If you let me know in the next 24hrs I can add more. I believe I read that the earth juice grow is 2-3% calcium

r/o water 15
cal-n-mag 1ml/L +200ppm = 215
molasses 1ml/L +85ppm = 285
grow 5ml/L +205ppm = 490
catalyst 1.25ml/L +40ppm = 530
pure blend tea .83ml/L +45ppm = 575

will bubble this for 24hrs or so untill the ph comes up to the 6's, when I mix it all up it has a ph of around 3.7.


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## Droopy Dog (Apr 30, 2015)

The problem as I see it, is, you're trying to do organics with a chem/hydro mindset. The listing of the various PPM's shows that. PPM's are at best irrelevant in any organics.

Looking for changes/improvements days after applying something or feeding is another. A wweek, perhaps, if not longer. But the only things that happen fast in organics is usually really bad.

Quit looking for deficiencys where there aren't any, or worse, imagining them. "Fixing" problems that aren't really there just create more problems.

Did you add lime to the mix as advised? If so, there is no need for cal/mag. IIRC you had or added Azomite to the mix? If so, you are covered on trace and minerals.

For right now, just feed it a decent amount and give it some time to respond to the feeding.

DD


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## next (Apr 30, 2015)

Yo Droopy,

I thought THG was interested in the ppm reading is why I supplied them. Sometimes I check the ppm out of curiosity, usually run-off ppm is what I check. 

Was worried about the lack of sulfur  because the azomite contains just a tiny amount. Yes added the azomite, as well as the dolomite lime. 

I have another white widow that is showing cal/mag deficiencies, is why I was curious if this one was too..... When I run multiple strains I always end up with a mixxed pot. I have 3 happy plants, 3 not so happy plants.. krazie MJ plants


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## Kraven (Apr 30, 2015)

I have to agree, I think your over thinking a feeding issue. Up your nute strength, feed, wait a week and see if she starts to green back up. Watch the tips for discoloration, that's how you know you're at the sweet spot.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Apr 30, 2015)

Yes, I was and am.  I still measure ppms with organic nutes.  If you are using a super soil or something like that, it is impossible to try and figure out.  But with added nutes (whether they are synthenic or organic), I do believe that the ppms matter.


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## next (Apr 30, 2015)

Kravenhead said:


> I have to agree, I think your over thinking a feeding issue. Up your nute strength, feed, wait a week and see if she starts to green back up. Watch the tips for discoloration, that's how you know you're at the sweet spot.



Hey Kraven, I agree 100%. I figured it was lack of nutes, but also thought there may have been a cal/mag / micro deficiency due to my other white widow showing symptoms.

She was doing great with mild nutes every feed. Its when I skipped a feed and used plain water that she started heading south.

Thanks everyone, I will update in a week or so with a pic. Still kinda torn on the cal/mag and whether or not I need to use it. Half the people say the dolomite lime has it covered, the other half uses cal/mag with every watering.

From what I have read it is hard to over use the cal/mag, seems most people use it at full strength, then back off until they see problems, raise it a lil and keep it there.


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## Hushpuppy (Apr 30, 2015)

If you are growing in organic medium/soil with all organic additives and organic liquid nutes, *you don't need to use cal/mag additive*. That is only for non-organic soils. In fact, using the calmag additive along with the dolomite and other organic materials can cause you to have too much of both calcium and magnesium. I wouldn't use another drop of the calmag additive unless you had a real significant need for it in the future, or with a synthetic nutrient grow.

You can use a TDS pen to read organic ppms but its a totally different animal from synthetic ppm numbers. You basically have to relearn how to measure the nutrient levels when reading ppm of organics, and even then its more of a round number than a precise measure.


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## next (Apr 30, 2015)

Hushpuppy said:


> If you are growing in organic medium/soil with all organic additives and organic liquid nutes, *you don't need to use cal/mag additive*. That is only for non-organic soils. In fact, using the calmag additive along with the dolomite and other organic materials can cause you to have too much of both calcium and magnesium. I wouldn't use another drop of the calmag additive unless you had a real significant need for it in the future, or with a synthetic nutrient grow.
> 
> You can use a TDS pen to read organic ppms but its a totally different animal from synthetic ppm numbers. You basically have to relearn how to measure the nutrient levels when reading ppm of organics, and even then its more of a round number than a precise measure.




Hey Hush,

The soil is pro-mix HP, 13% EWC, 1cup/ft3 of azomite, and 1 Tbs / gallon of soil. Nutes are all liquid organic.


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## Hushpuppy (Apr 30, 2015)

That is a combination of organics and soilless medium. That does make things more tricky but if you have been giving dolomite lime then you shouldn't need the calmag. One thing that may be an issue here is once you set up your medium and begin feeding with organic nutrients, you also need to be adding some extra microbe additives and some smaller amounts of molasses to feed the microbes to get them going. If the microbe herd isn't in good health and/or the numbers of them isn't there, then the whole organic function isn't going to work well enough to properly feed the plants.


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## next (Apr 30, 2015)

Thanks again.

I have been adding molasses at about a teaspoon per gallon every watering. I used myco-madness when they were only a week or two old to help out the micro herd. 

What would you suggest to help add microbes? I currently have Humbodt Myco-madness, and Plant Success Premium Mycorrhizal Innoculant.

I seem to be at about a 50'50 success rate when they go from veg to flower, they either thrive, or show problems.. For example, I have 2 white widow auto's growing, one is happy as can be, the other is showing major problems.. Maybe for what ever reason the micro herd is happy with one plant, but not the other, even tho they have had the same nutes / molasses / myco's


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## Droopy Dog (Apr 30, 2015)

A few quickies.

First off, mycos are a fungi that grow on plant roots. They are NOT the same as soil microbes by any stretch. Both are essential, but 2 different animals. Once applied to the roots, more mycos are just wasted money.

Dolomite is 20-35% Mg, so a Mg def using dolomite is a bit far fetched.

EJ Catalyst is pretty much just fancy molasses.

ProMix is soilless (no dirt), but is also organic. Peat moss is both organic and a humus source.

If in doubt, a little research will confirm all this, even if I was a bit brief.

DD


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## Kraven (Apr 30, 2015)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Yes, I was and am.  I still measure ppms with organic nutes.  If you are using a super soil or something like that, it is impossible to try and figure out.  But with added nutes (whether they are synthenic or organic), I do believe that the ppms matter.



THG I would like to learn more about this, could you please expand on your thoughts some please.


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## next (Apr 30, 2015)

"you also need to be adding some extra microbe additives"

Is that the molasses? Or something else? I'm thinking maybe a good EWC tea?

**I added 2 heaping tbl spoons of EWC and an extra tsp of molasses.**


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## next (Apr 30, 2015)

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Endomycorrhizal/cc
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5% Alaskan humus, 5% worm castings
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## next (Apr 30, 2015)

I've heard xatalyst be refrenced to as molasses "more or less", but it doesn't smell like molasses..

Derived From Oat Bran, Kelp and other organic ingredients. Listed by OMRI for organic production. Stimulates growth and production. CATALYST offers an array of natural occurring enzymes, hormones, vitamins, amino acids, nutrients, sugars, plant acids and surfactants (wetting aids) that will aid in stimulating plant growth and production. It can be applied by watering in as an additive, or used as a foliar feed. Improves growing mediums, encourages compact growth, increases yields, improves synthetic, organic fertilizers, and teas.


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## next (May 1, 2015)

Just gave her the juice.. 

run off ppm was 725, nutes were at 550. For sure hungry
run off ph was 6.7 nutes were at 6.2  

Last weeks run off ph was 6.3-6.5 on all 6 plants(I know run off ph doesn't matter in organic), probably should of checked the ppm's and I would of known to give this girl food instead of plain water.

I do think she is already perking up from the 1/4 dose 5 days ago. I knew she was hungry, but didn't think she was starving!

On the plus side.. she's a girl 

**Ok so as per Hush's and Droopy's comments about the cal-n-mag, I will not use it anymore** 

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## next (May 1, 2015)

This one Narco has some weird spots on this one leaf 

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## Droopy Dog (May 1, 2015)

Do you have, or can you source gypsum? It is a most excellent source of Ca and sulfur. It does not affect pH though, so it is NOT a lime replacement. I use it in conjunction with lime and add at the same rate as lime, 1cup of each/cf. I also do a top dress with it during the grow for a shot of Ca and the sulfur in it really gets the terpenes going for taste. Sulfur has a huge effect on taste, for the good.

 I just bought my third 40 lb bag yesterday. It lightens heavy soil and I use a good bit in the garden and yard. The native soil is red clay and pretty dense. If not for that, a 40lb bag would last for ages. Cost is $13 for the 40lb bag. Pretty cheap for so much good.

Just a thought for you to consider.

DD


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## next (May 1, 2015)

Doesn't look like I can find it easily.. but will keep an eye out for some


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## Droopy Dog (May 1, 2015)

It's a fairly common item, Lowes has it and I get mine from a local Feed & Seed. Usually has "Soil Repair" in large print and gypsum in smaller print.

BAS (Build-A-Soil) has smaller amounts IIRC along with free shipping. Great place for hard to find organic stuff.

What I used to do when running EJ was either alternate Catalyst with molasses, or use both at half strength each. Great stuff, but it can get expensive using it only.

That Myco Madness is interesting. Guess you only apply it once, yes? Myco's only require one application to the roots and in reality so do the soil microbes. The whole "Feed the soil" thing.

Look for the gypsum, the plants will thank you. Especiall using RO water.

DD


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## next (May 1, 2015)

Nice website.. awesome stuff.. $46 shipping on a 8lb bag  

I can pick up a 25KG bag for 35$ might have to get it ordered tho.. I think my plants need this asap

Website had this to say when you clicked on their gypsum for sale. 
"Many Gardeners are using Dolomite lime thinking that it will add calcium and magnesium. Problem being that it is way to high in magnesium and also virtually unavailable to the plants for a number of years. The ONLY reason nurseries and farms use Dolomite Lime is to adjust the PH up typically when using Peat Moss."


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## Droopy Dog (May 1, 2015)

Yeah, I've been in some *spirited* discussions about that. My observations from using dolomite for a number of years just don't bear that out. First he says the % of Mg is too high and will cause problems. Then, in the very next breath says the Mg isn't available at all for several years. :confused2:  Which is it, too much, or none at all?

The only time I had a Mg deficiency in years was using calcitic lime with next to no Mg in it. Easy fix with some epsom salts, but it took me forever to figure it out.  :holysheep::icon_smile:

Use it or no, but make your own observations on what it does or doesn't do. Then go with what works best for you.

I also avoid discussions on that subject now. :bolt:

DD


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## next (May 1, 2015)

Lol thanks Droopy..

Its the first time I have seen anything like that.. i'm sure your observations are more correct than the people trying to sell the Gypsum, to use instead of DL. :rant:

Whats your guess on those brown dots on the leaves?

Hate to say it, but these two Narco plants are starting to have yellow tops as well, wish I knew what the heck it was..


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## next (May 2, 2015)

Maybe some kelp meal tea would help


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## Droopy Dog (May 2, 2015)

next said:


> Maybe some kelp meal tea would help



If you want something really killer, go back to the BAS site and find "DIY Instant Kelp Meal Tea", or "Coot's Hydrated Kelp  Meal Trick"  Pretty sure it's in the blog section and I really suck at posting links.

There is really a ton of useful information on that site. They go way beyond just wanting to sell you stuff.

They aren't trying to sell gypsum over DL. It's more that the guy who authored the above (Clackamas Coot), while a real deal organic expert, has a almost pathological hatred for dolomite lime. IDK why and don't really care, but it clouds anything he has to say about it.

That little blurb you quoted sounds just like something he would say regarding DL Not inaccurate, but very biased. Guess who else was part of that 'spirited discussion' I mentioned before.  LOL

But in any event, the kelp trick works like gangbusters. Check it out.

DD


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## next (May 2, 2015)

Wowsers, that website does have an unreal amount of information

Took some searching, was on page 5 of the blog. Here is the Kelp Meal Trick DIY
http://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/11759569-diy-instant-kelp-meal-tea-coots-hydrated-kelp-meal-trick


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## next (May 2, 2015)

So I re-hydrated 1/3rd cup kelp meal, going to toss it in the blender soon.

Droopy, how do you think I should incorporate the kelp meal into my nutrients? Should I use the recommended 1tblspoon / gallon all by itself, or along side the earth juice?

I will have to try a foliar spray of the kelp on the Satori


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## Droopy Dog (May 2, 2015)

I  don't do foliar sprays much any more, but the soil drench works like a champ. I was more than impressed with it, even over a regular kelp tea. I do the 1tbl/gallon of water and just water with it.

Try it without the EJ just to see how it works and then experiment. Should be fine with the EJ.

DD


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## HighBrixMMJ (May 11, 2015)

next said:


> What would you suggest to help add microbes? I currently have Humbodt Myco-madness, and Plant Success Premium Mycorrhizal innoculant



 I always had great success with em-1. Add it to your water when you feed. It's effective micro organisms. It will greatly help your microbe herd.


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## next (May 13, 2015)

Hey highbrix,

I have looked into em-1 kinda hard to get up here in canada.

I found this link on how to make your own.. do you think it would work?
http://www.hawaiihealingtree.org/how-to-make-your-own-em-1-inoculant-and-bokashi/


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## Rosebud (May 13, 2015)

Next, you might want to read the book i just started called Teaming with micorbes. By Jeff Lowenfels. He used to work for miracle grow, now he is organic guru.. 

I have some nasty stuff growing on my organic strawberry jam that i am keeping going...yuck, but nice for the soilweb.


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## next (May 13, 2015)

Here is the Satori, she grew about a foot. Lost a few llower fan leaves but she had lots to spare. Still lookin a little sickly.. but i've got time to wait her out 

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## next (May 16, 2015)

Hey rose,

I have read that book, but it has since become lost in the mind.. Thanks for the refresher I have been reading it again. )


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## next (May 17, 2015)

Hmm any idea's? This is the stalk of the satori, just poured some compost tea on it thats what the brownish is.. but what is the white?? 

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## next (May 17, 2015)

Mighta been answered here

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=54832
"It's roots trying to come out, it's called root initialization. Don't worry about it. "

kinda looks the same, but this is extreme.


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## Rosebud (May 17, 2015)

Could we get a shot of that that isn't so close up? I can't get any perspective from that pic.


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## next (May 17, 2015)

Sorry here ya go 

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## Rosebud (May 17, 2015)

Ok, that looks way more normal, if i could suggest removing those little suckers around the bottom.  Just clean that up. Less chance of fungus. 

I have seen that before in my grow, I didn't worry about it. Good to know Mel could identify it.


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## next (May 17, 2015)

Will do, thank you so much Rose.


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## next (May 18, 2015)

Cleaned up alot of the under growth, took 7 cuttings and put them in the bubble cloner. I tried to trim all growth lower than where the main stalk was topped. I managed to get about 3/4's but didn't want to do it all at once. Theres a few clusters of decent sized shoots that I left, maybe more clones later 

Satori clones up front, cheesies in the back 

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## next (May 26, 2015)

This satori is giving me a run for my money.. I feel as tho I have thrown everything but the kitchen sink at her and its just not panning out. The fan leaves just keep withering away.. I just gave her a full dose of fish emulsion, as well as an ewc top dressing. I added 1tsp of gypsum to the fish emulsion as well.


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## MR1 (May 26, 2015)

Next , maybe you have the one Satori that likes more food, I wish I could help more but I don't know much about organic growing. :fly:


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## next (May 26, 2015)

I must have.... pretty soon im going to have to just dump the bottle of nutes right on her. Or bust out some synthetic nutes and see how that goes.. I'm almost ready to say ppfftt, and see how her clones turn out. Speaking of which, i wonder if they've rooted yet, been 8 days.


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## MR1 (May 27, 2015)

My cloning skills are in the toilet at the moment, good luck man.


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## next (May 29, 2015)

And KaBooM, she made a 100% turn around, just looked inside the tent and had to take a step back because there was a monster staring back at me.

I have to wonder if it was the gypsum, the ewc, or the fish emulsion.. perhaps it was a combo of all 3. I can't believe how fast the turn around was, I told my woman last night that I thought the satori was a goner, then tonight, KaBooM.

I like this one
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I will grab a pic in a lil bit


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## next (May 30, 2015)

12 tops.. this thing was like fighting with a gorilla :tokie:

She's taking up about 2'6" each way. I'm hoping with a little encouragement I can lay her out a little better. I didn't want to mess with her when she was in dire straights. She was a little rigid so I went easy on her. Fresh pic after tying her down 

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## next (May 30, 2015)

Here she be 

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## next (Jun 12, 2015)

update,

I think the latest pics I took she was sleeping, looks a little droopy, but usually not like that. I think she was sleeping.

Looks like new growth is headed in the right direction, do you think the problem is solved? Still looks like slight mg def. to me, and maybe calcium? Damn r/o water anyways 

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## Rosebud (Jun 12, 2015)

I can't tell anything under the LED, but your training looks great.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jun 12, 2015)

I do have to say that she does not look like any Satori I have every grown...and I have grown a lot of them.  Mine usually have very large fan leaves and are more branchy.  I would be for cutting nutes rather than upping them.  Satori is a light eater.  I do not think she is hungry.  Gypsum is basically a soil conditioner and helps to stabilize pH--it does not really provide any nutrients.  Earth worm castings need some time to start to break down.  I doubt that either gypsum, fish emulsions or castings would cause an overnight turnaround.  Even with hydro, turnarounds take that or longer.


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## next (Jun 12, 2015)

Here you go Rose, turned the LED's off and a 2700k cfl on 

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## Rosebud (Jun 12, 2015)

She still doesn't look so great on her old growth but her new growth looks lots better.

I hope she pulls out of this.


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## next (Jun 13, 2015)

I'm hoping she pulls through as well.. I'm going to have to flip her to 12/12 pretty soon or she will overgrow my tent for sure. I trimmed some fan leaves that were in the way / sickly looking. 

I will give her some molasses n water this time around, will have to wait n see how she likes it.


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## next (Jun 13, 2015)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> I do have to say that she does not look like any Satori I have every grown...and I have grown a lot of them.  Mine usually have very large fan leaves and are more branchy.  I would be for cutting nutes rather than upping them.  Satori is a light eater.  I do not think she is hungry.  Gypsum is basically a soil conditioner and helps to stabilize pH--it does not really provide any nutrients.  Earth worm castings need some time to start to break down.  I doubt that either gypsum, fish emulsions or castings would cause an overnight turnaround.  Even with hydro, turnarounds take that or longer.



Hey there THG,

They keep telling me she is a light feeder, but she was starving for nutes at the same time.. I will back off the nutes for the time being. The gypsum cranked the ppm's to the moon when I mixed it into the water. It wasnt an "overnight" fix, but there was a noticeable change within 4 days.

I managed to source a somewhat local worm casting supplier. I grabbed about 5 gallons worth, looks like good stuff. Very professional, had it ready for me in a sealed bag. Looking forward to making some more tea with it


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## next (Jun 22, 2015)

I pulled the plug.... tent is shut down!


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## Rosebud (Jun 22, 2015)

Very sad news next. mojo for your next grow.


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## next (Jun 22, 2015)

Cheers Rose, onto the next one! :vap-Bong_smoker:

I was half smart and still have 2 of the Satori clones under the fluro's.. Both in promix with azomite and kelp. They each had large roots when I potted them, and I top dressed one with fresh EWC, and the other with Buffaloam compost. They seem to be hanging in there so far. 

Hey Rose.. I have an organic question for you.. Do you have to increase the pot size when growing organics? Or will my 5gal root pouch pots be good?

When would you recommend transplanting up from a small 1pint (473ml) pot?

Thanks again Rose, your awesome, hope you know that!!!


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## Rosebud (Jun 22, 2015)

No, you don't have to increase pot size. My inside grows were 5 gallons for years, now i do 3 gallons sometimes. Your 5 gallons should be great. 

I keep mine in 1 gallon plastic bags until they sex. Then they go in the bigger pots.


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