# 3 Electrical questions



## newbie1965 (Aug 14, 2008)

Hey ya all :hubba:

I 'm considering putting up 4 600w lights in my new grow but wonder
how to go about it, ie how to plug the 4 non-digital ballasts to one
power source without causing cutouts?

Also any ideas how many watts a single power supply point can deliver safely?

Will taking electricity from diffrenet rooms make it safer?

Your replies are always appreciated 

Please note I'm in europe where electricity is 220-240volts


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## clanchattan (Aug 14, 2008)

if you divide total watts by volts 240v/2400w you'll need a 15 amp circuit to run all your lights. this accounts for an 80% load factor and take into account that ballasts (especially H.P.S.) have a spike at start up.

this dosent leave much room for fans. on a 15a circuit you'll have approx. 
760a left to run other stuff.

[email protected]=3400w - 80%(242w) = 3158w
3158w - 4(600w) = 758w 
             2400w

getting electircity from other rooms is ok only if the other roomis a srperate circuit. turn off the circuit in your grow room and plug in a radio to different outlets to find a different circuit.


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## [email protected] (Aug 14, 2008)

google it.


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## newbie1965 (Aug 15, 2008)

Thanks Clan for the detailed reply, which is what i needed
cheers


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## Type_S150 (Aug 15, 2008)

newbie1965 said:
			
		

> Hey ya all :hubba:
> 
> I 'm considering putting up 4 600w lights in my new grow but wonder
> how to go about it, ie how to plug the 4 non-digital ballasts to one
> ...


My 1000w hps draws 9 amps on the 110v, about 5 when I run 240v. Each of your lights should be pulling around 3-3.5amps each, so thats pretty close to 15amps right there. However, you should easily be able to put a bigger fuse in if you are running on 240. Im not an electrician, but have some electrical experience. Why not find someone to put a bigger fuse in your fuse box and replace the 15amp with a 20?


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## CasualGrower (Aug 15, 2008)

I am in the US, so I don't deal with a lot of 220..... But I would not JUST replace a fuse with a bigger one.... There is a reason that a wire has a 15 amp rating... Pushing 20 amps through a 15 amp rated wire is asking for overheating and possible fire issues....  However I am not sure that by pushing the amperage using 220 rather than 110 you might get less resistance and be possible....:confused2: 

To be sure though, you will need to know the size and condition of the wire.  Also before you do anything like that, You really should consult an electrician.


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## GrandDaddyToke (Aug 15, 2008)

I ran a heavy duty wire from my breaker box to the room that is growen in. It is connected to a store bought 4 outlet box with a built in timer and temp control. If it would get to hot it shuts off.
You must take your wiring serious!!!  It is very easy to start a fire if you have a wire that is less AMPS than your breaker is.
I know very little about electric, but enough to be careful and not create the chance for fire!!

GOOD LUCK AND BE SAFE!!!!


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## NorCalHal (Aug 15, 2008)

They are not kidding, you need to take your electrical serious when running more than one HID.
For 4, 600's, you will need 10/3 Romex on a 20 amp breaker to avoid any issues.


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## clanchattan (Aug 15, 2008)

10/3 at 120v. your amprage is roughly halved at 240v. which he is running his ballasts with. higher the voltage the less amperage a device will draw.


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## TURKEYNECK (Aug 15, 2008)

clanchattan said:
			
		

> 10/3 at 120v. your amprage is roughly halved at 240v. which he is running his ballasts with. higher the voltage the less amperage a device will draw.


 
Just about to say..240v pulls way less amps than 120v...


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## GrandDaddyToke (Aug 16, 2008)

TURKEYNECK said:
			
		

> Just about to say..240v pulls way less amps than 120v...


 
So if I changed mine to 240 which I think I could do I would save electric?????
I run 2 1000 watt hps plus 2 in-line fans for exhaust and 2 heavy duty fans to replace air. 
My electric runs high but I have done a gradual increase over the last year and a half. 
Any savings would be a big help!!
THANKS IN ADVANCE!!


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## TURKEYNECK (Aug 16, 2008)

GrandDaddyToke said:
			
		

> So if I changed mine to 240 which I think I could do I would save electric?????
> I run 2 1000 watt hps plus 2 in-line fans for exhaust and 2 heavy duty fans to replace air.
> My electric runs high but I have done a gradual increase over the last year and a half.
> Any savings would be a big help!!
> THANKS IN ADVANCE!!


 
Actually yes, Im not sure about all the fans and all but the lights alone would cut the bill a good bit, the only problem would be timers..
My ballast has a built in timer that's protected..


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## NorCalHal (Aug 16, 2008)

I wouldn't say that running 240 is going to make your bill any less, maybe a little, but not "half". Running 240v helps the ballests run more efficient for sure.
You should have your lites on a seperate 240 breaker. And the lites alone on that breaker.

Now, I am no trained electrician, but I run 4k watts on one 30 amp 240v breaker with 10-3 romex from the breaker to the Intermatic T104 timer. From the timer I run 12-3 romex to each plug. Never had an issue or had the wire get hot. Any real electricians please speak up if you feel this is incorrect.

One thing I do not do is run a "neutral" to the timer. Just 2 hots and the ground. I was told by an electrician that it is not "to code" but it will work.
Thoughts?


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## Growdude (Aug 16, 2008)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> I wouldn't say that running 240 is going to make your bill any less, maybe a little, but not "half". Running 240v helps the ballests run more efficient for sure.
> You should have your lites on a seperate 240 breaker. And the lites alone on that breaker.
> 
> Now, I am no trained electrician, but I run 4k watts on one 30 amp 240v breaker with 10-3 romex from the breaker to the Intermatic T104 timer. From the timer I run 12-3 romex to each plug. Never had an issue or had the wire get hot. Any real electricians please speak up if you feel this is incorrect.
> ...


 
Here it is.
Oms law E=I x R  OR W=I x E
E = volts
I = amps
W= watts
R = resistance

So 4000/240 = 16.66 amps 10/3 romex is plenty big

So no matter if the voltage is 240 or 120 the total wattage is the same, your billed on killowatts per hour so ther is no $ advantage to 240v

As for your ground wire, in a 240 volt crkt you have 2 hots and a ground.
The neutral wire and the grounds all terminate at the same place in the box so it will work but isnt code.


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## NorCalHal (Aug 16, 2008)

Thanks alot Grow. 
That is what I thought about electrical savings with 240v, there is none. Just better for your equipment.

So, looking at your calculations, How do you determine what wire to use? I use the 10-3 because I was told too, and have followed suit for years with this. But I would like to understand how you determine that 10-3 is OK. I guess it says it on the Romex box what amps the wire is able to handle?

A friend has just started building his new home and we are setting up a room for him. BIG room. Seperate Load center from the house. We had to run 4/0 wire to the panel from the Main. Tons of crap to go though with the Power company to do this. Lots of questions as to why he needed an extra 200amp service. But, it all worked out. So, I am just starting to get into really big electrical projects and I don't want to get lit up.

The calculation for amps (4000w/240v) is awesome. Never looked at it like that. I have allways added the amps from the rating on each ballast. There are in fact the same, but I like your way of determining amps.


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## Growdude (Aug 16, 2008)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> So, looking at your calculations, How do you determine what wire to use? I use the 10-3 because I was told too, and have followed suit for years with this. But I would like to understand how you determine that 10-3 is OK. I guess it says it on the Romex box what amps the wire is able to handle?
> 
> The calculation for amps (4000w/240v) is awesome. Never looked at it like that. I have allways added the amps from the rating on each ballast. There are in fact the same, but I like your way of determining amps.


 
I cant take the credit its Oms law, been around quite some time. lol

Yea you can look up the type and size of wire yopu are using and it will tell you max amps.
Without my little book 14 gauge romex is good for 15 amps, 12 gauge 20 and 10 gauge is 25 I think, likw I said i dont have my cheat book but the net must have the info also.


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## naturalhi (Aug 16, 2008)

Make it easy on yerselves; 1000w lights pull 1000w per hour whether @ 120v or 240v. the only diff. is 120v uses only 1 hot wire and 1 neutral wire, whereas 240v use 2 hotwires and 1 neutral. This is where one gets the halfed amps in 240v. The light pulls exactly the same electricty whether through 1 or 2 120v wires, pulling through 1 wire just has all amps in one wire instead of deviding it into 2 120 wires.

So 4 600's at 240v would draw 18amps, which would call for 12 guage wire, 20 amp wall socket, 15amp double (240v) breaker since there will be only 7amps per hot wire.


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## Growdude (Aug 16, 2008)

naturalhi said:
			
		

> pulling through 1 wire just has all amps in one wire instead of deviding it into 2 120 wires.
> 
> So 4 600's at 240v would draw 18amps, which would call for 12 guage wire, 20 amp wall socket, 15amp double (240v) breaker since there will be only 7amps per hot wire.


 
Its not the number of wires, its only 2 wires either way. In the 240 volt crkt you have a neutral or ground but its not used to supply power only the 2 hot wires.

4 600's, 2400 watts @ 240v olts = 10 amps   not sure how you got 18


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## TURKEYNECK (Aug 16, 2008)

> So no matter if the voltage is 240 or 120 the total wattage is the same, your billed on killowatts per hour so ther is no $ advantage to 240v


I stand corrected..(lil high)..  I am an electrician It's just been awhile since I studied this...

I learned the oms law to be P.I.E...E x I = W...ect.. But CURRENT is what spins your meter so with less Amps, there will be less current which would mean it DOES save atleast ALITTLE $$$$ maybe it's not much?... 

Good subject though, Kudos fellas


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## TURKEYNECK (Aug 16, 2008)

> 240v) breaker since there will be only 7amps per hot wire


I thought it was 5 amps x2 for 240=10amps...where you get 7?


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## andy52 (Aug 16, 2008)

screwed me up,lol all i know is it will knock the fire out of ya,lol  like a friend said about guns,same here.i do not mess with something that can bark here and bite over yonder,lol


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## Growdude (Aug 16, 2008)

TURKEYNECK said:
			
		

> I thought it was 5 amps x2 for 240=10amps...where you get 7?


 
Nice find! the ohms law power circle.


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## TURKEYNECK (Aug 16, 2008)

Growdude said:
			
		

> Nice find! the ohms law power circle.


 
thanks, Im an industrial electrician so I mainly deal with 3phase 480v.. and 120v controls.. we need a commercial electrician to answer all this ballast business, they wire MH and HPS in warehouses...walmarts..ect all the time...:huh: ..but not I...


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## clanchattan (Aug 16, 2008)

the only advantage to the higher voltage is the more devices you can run. lighting in almost all commercial and industrial buildings is a 3 phase 480v circuit.

thats 480 between a phase and b phase, 480 between a phase and c phase,
and you guessed it, 480 between b phase and c phase with all 3 phases reading 277v to ground. the reason for the higher voltages is that lower current drawn by multiple devices allows for a smaller wire size. 

a 120v 400w mh draws about 3.5 amps
a 277v 400w mh draws about 1.2 amps
a 480v 400w mh draws about .75 amps

the wire is rated at a given ampacity in annex b of the national electric code

a #8 thhn copper conductor is rated at 48 amps no matter the voltage and the max working amperage of 38.4 after an 20% derating. 

this means at 120v you can have (10) 400w mh on one 40 amp circuit
                at 277v you can have (31) 400w mh on one 40 amp circuit
                at 480v you can have alot and im tired of stoned long divison
                        in my head, but you get the point.

the amperages at different voltages are appx from my little book. they are averages of fixtures from: g.e., westinghouse, sylvania, hubbell, ruud, musco, and lithonia. my quick reference for jobsite questions from ignorant general supers and engineers.

basically electrical contractors can give you more options at higher voltages.
the kwh savings are minimal at best but the faster the current is going the less resistance encountered. thats why the wire rating dosent change.
#8 is good for 40 amps at 20v and at 2000v. but you can run more junk at 2000v.

meters read wattage consumed not amperage. the power at your panel is dirty at best. you can have voltage flux in a 10% range at any given time. it ranges all over and is not steady. this is why all our ballasts have a capacitor to supply a clean, unfluctuating supply of voltage to the lamp. the light from a heated mh or hps is very steady and dosent brown or brighten noticablly. 

anyways........this indica makes me slightly longwinded. thats lighting in a nutshell. my bong is giving me that neglected look ................


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## naturalhi (Aug 17, 2008)

Guess we have a failure to comunicate, I was tryin to say that if there's 3.5 amps per leg(120v), + a second leg (240v) gives another 3.5 amps; which makes each light draw 7 amps. The reasoning is alterating curent sends 120v through each leg alternately, or every 1/60th of a second the black wire carries 120v pulse then the white wire carries a 120v pulse never at same time. 

Now @ 240v the light is wired in such a way as to use both pulses one at a time. 3.5 amps per light x 4 lites =10.

so yer rite I miss calced.

But they still pull 600w per lite, which is how the electric Co. charges you, right?


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## Bonghit74 (Aug 17, 2008)

One thing you also have to take in consideration is the circuit breaker.  The NEC states that you can only put 80% of load on the breaker.  So a 20A breaker, you should only load up to 16A.  Circuit breakers and fuses can explode if overloaded.  I would never load up a 20A to the maximum.  Also make sure your circuit is grounded.


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## TURKEYNECK (Aug 18, 2008)

Bonghit74 said:
			
		

> One thing you also have to take in consideration is the circuit breaker. The NEC states that you can only put 80% of load on the breaker. So a 20A breaker, you should only load up to 16A. Circuit breakers and fuses can explode if overloaded. I would never load up a 20A to the maximum. Also make sure your circuit is grounded.


 
man....I don't doubt what your sayin, but I've NEVER seen a breaker "explode" lol and god knows Ive overloaded a many of breaker in my time 

On another note, You dont want an oversized breaker on any circuit cause it defeats the purpose of the breaker...

Not to discredit your comment though bro..just laughing at the "explode" part...


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## Bonghit74 (Aug 19, 2008)

Yeah, I said that kind of wrong.  I was thinking about the short circuit rating of the breaker or fuse making them explode.  It is a national electrical code that you only load a breaker or fuse to 80%.  It could cause a fire not a explosion.  NEC also states that nothing smaller than #12 on a 20A breaker, #10 on a 30A, #14 on a 15A.

And not to laugh at you but I am a electrician and I have seen shiit blow-up.  Ya'll are messing around with 15A breakers minumum and it only takes 1/2A across your heart to stop it.  Be careful and do not wire anything with power on!!


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## naturalhi (Aug 20, 2008)

I'm not an electrician, but I play one on occasion!>D

Anywho, I've replaced blownup breakers for several folks, and the ones that blew up seem to be older worn breakers that just had big watt lights added to thier load:>)


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