# Hard Water to blame?



## bigweedo (Feb 2, 2014)

Hi All,

I have hard water (just tested 115 PPM out of tap.) It seems like I run into the same problem at 3 weeks into flowering. My plants start to yellow and turn crazy colors. Daytime and night time temps are in the high 60's and low 70's. pH is 6.5, seems like everything is good.





I'm starting to think my hard water is causing nutrient lock out. Plant stems and leaf veins are turning a weird red. I've attached a picture, does it seem like it is a calcium def?

Please help!:icon_smile:


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## Growdude (Feb 2, 2014)

115 is not that bad. Overwatering or being hungry can cause yellowing like that.


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## 4u2sm0ke (Feb 2, 2014)

Yeah Im with *GrowDude*..and say at week 3 bloom she is asking for a bit more Nitro...Do you notice redish rusty spots later in flower around week 5?  is so I would start some cal/mag as well as a little more Nitro

Take care and be safe
:48:


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## bigweedo (Feb 2, 2014)

Do you guys usually give a little shot of nitrogen around mid flowering? I might throw in 1/2 tsp of my grow in the next watering


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## The Hemp Goddess (Feb 2, 2014)

What are you feeding your plants?  What PPMs are you running?  I have run water in that range before without issues.  You might want to let your pH drift some.


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## bigweedo (Feb 2, 2014)

I'm using Earth Juice Seablast line. I've never tested PPMs with nutrients added yet, I've just been following the strong recommendation with the pH being at 6.5 at time of feeding. It drops the pH from around 7.6 to 6.5. What do you mean by letting my pH drift?


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## bigweedo (Feb 2, 2014)

By the way, the plant directly under the light is showing the worse symptoms, this points at deficiency right? The plant furthest from the light shows the least amount of symptoms.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 2, 2014)

I follow with the above question of what nutes and how much, and what kind of schedule, as it appears to be developing flower nute deficiency which is in line with the timing. Or you could be causing a lockout when you switch to flowering nutes. Or you could just be suffering a loss of nitrogen from the switch-over.

Also, what kind of soil/medium and how long have the plants been vegging before being placed into flower.


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## bigweedo (Feb 2, 2014)

They are in 5 gallon buckets with black gold as soil. Vegged for 6 weeks. The plants are always so lush and green during veg under flourscents, but once they go under the hps things seem to change. I used grow during veg (17-8-17) at 1/2 tsp every watering. Once a week I water with a gallon of water with 1/2 tsp of (8-35-14). This is called transition and I will be switching to bloom 3-26-22 with an additive of bloom master (0-0-50)


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 2, 2014)

I just looked into the earth juice line and saw that it is organic but I couldn't tell if it has beneficial microbes or not, or if it is already chelated nutrients. It appears that either you are not feeding them enough and they are running out of nutes faster than you supply them(because when they go into transition to flowering, they go into nute overdrive), or there isn't enough microbes within the soil to chelate the nutes fast enough to properly feed the plants and they are getting deficient.

Can you tell if there is microbes supplied in the nutes or if it is pre-chelated?


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## bigweedo (Feb 2, 2014)

pretty sure the seablast line isn't organic, so I doubt there are microbs. So, it sounds like my hard water isn't the problem? Sounds like I am under feeding, these plants are big.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 2, 2014)

That is interesting as what I looked up said specifically "organic" but that could just be an organic line of the same product. Yeah if it isn't organic then I would be inclined to think you just are a little low on the nutes. I am not sure about how much of everything the "Transition" has in it, but it may be that it doesn't have enough of the grow nutes to keep it from yellowing on the lower part of the plant. 

I would bump up the transition dosage and see if that helps it green up again.


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## trillions of atoms (Feb 2, 2014)

Looks hungry.... if ph is in the zone might wanna bump up the chow.


 If problem persists try using a hardwater micro nutrient line like general hydroponics or get an r/o filter.


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## bigweedo (Feb 3, 2014)

Just fed 3/4 tsp of the transition...pH was 6.3 and ppm was 414 (tap water had 114ppm prior to nutrients)

Do I need more ppm?


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## DrFever (Feb 3, 2014)

YUP  you need to be in the 800's  min  try for   850  range  You need N all through growth, during flowering you need less of it, about 1/2 to 2/3 as much as veg but you need it because N is the base element for photosynthetic production. Your leaves turning yellow means your plants are out of available N. Give them an initial dose at full strength to help them recover then continue with about a 1/2 strength regimen.  6.3 is to low of ph    you need min 6.8 - 7.0  for nutrients to work properly   i suggest flushing  your medium  with  800 ppm  7.0  and catch return  check ph levels   as they may be way to low  if there High then your over dosing your plants. But its critical to keep a constant ph level in the 6.8 to 7.0  in your medium at all  times  fluctuations only brings stress , slow growth and low yields


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## bigweedo (Feb 4, 2014)

So it's looking like I need to buy some pH up and up my rates?


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## 4u2sm0ke (Feb 4, 2014)

Soil is 6.5-7.0


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## The Hemp Goddess (Feb 4, 2014)

bigweedo said:
			
		

> I'm using Earth Juice Seablast line. I've never tested PPMs with nutrients added yet, I've just been following the strong recommendation with the pH being at 6.5 at time of feeding. It drops the pH from around 7.6 to 6.5. What do you mean by letting my pH drift?



The reason that pH is important is that all nutrients are not uptaken at the same pH levels.  I have linked a chart that shows nutrient uptake at different pH levels.  You can see that there are a couple of major elements that are not uptaken at pH levels below 6.5.  So when I talk about pH drift, I am talking about not keeping a steady pH, but allowing it to go from about 6.0 to about 6.8 to insure uptake of all nutes.

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=1833&d=1141100090

I also believe that the Earth Juice Seablast is organic.


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## bigweedo (Feb 4, 2014)

It isn't organic, 100% sure. So, do I need to buy pH up and up my rates. PPM of feeding was a little over 400 and pH was 6.3


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## trillions of atoms (Feb 4, 2014)

Bump up the feed 400 is not enough.


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## bigweedo (Feb 5, 2014)

If I bump up the feed the pH will sky rocket down to a pretty low pH. If I doubled the feed, and got it to 800ppm it would be around 5.5 pH i'm assuming.


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## ozzydiodude (Feb 5, 2014)

whats in you soil mix? is there lime in it?/ if so add nutes at 5.8 or less and the lime will do its job of balancing the ph


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## bigweedo (Feb 5, 2014)

It's black gold. Can I sprinkle some lime on the to layer and have it get watered in? Or is this something I have to do pre planting into container?


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 5, 2014)

You can top dress with it but if you can work it into the soil before watering it in, it will do better, otherwise it will clump on top.

I personally would get pH adjuster and set the pH if the nutrient isn't organic. But it should work to use the lime as well.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 5, 2014)

I just went and looked up the EarthJuice. Is this the brand you are using? http://hydrobuilder.com/seablast-grow-40-lbs.html
If so then it is organic according to this and pH may be the issue as it should be about 6.7ish for organic


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## bigweedo (Feb 5, 2014)

Wow, you're right...I guess never trust the hydro store guy. Never going to that place again haha. 

So, I am new to organics. What do I need to do to get the pH up? Can I use pH up? Or do I need to use another organic product?

Thanks for all your help guys, I really appreciate it!


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 6, 2014)

I would do 3 things right away. I would get some Mychorrizae from one of the hydro stores and make a microbe tea to add to the soil on next watering. 2, I would get some molasses to add to the microbe tea as that feeds the microbes to get them wound up for working. 3, get some dolomite lime and top dress the soil with about 3-5TbSP. then try to stir it into the soil if there is enough soil over the roots to allow it. I listed the 3 functions backwards though. Make up the tea and aerate it for up to 12hrs before adding it to the soil. While the tea is aerating, add the lime to the soil and mix it into the soil as much as possible without damaging roots. Then add the tea. 

With organics you don't need to do much with pH adjuster other than the lime to buffer the soil. The microbes will do the rest of the work of controlling the pH and feeding the plant. With the added microbes and molasses to activate them(so to speak), all of the feeding that you do going forward will be chelated by the microbes and taken to the plant. With organics, its all about maintaining a healthy microbe herd in the soil and then supplying all of the raw materials that they need for feeding the plants 

You don't have to add the lime every time you feed/water but since you didn't have it mixed in with the soil initially, I would recommend adding a couple TBSP every 3rd feed/water. Also, if you aren't doing it already, I would feed, water, feed, water, etc. At this point, you probably won't need to add anymore microbe tea after the first add, but keep the mycho for the next grow and add it along with the lime when you are setting up your soil.


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## DrFever (Feb 6, 2014)

Some examples of Home remedies to raise/lower pH are as follows:
1.Lemon juice. 1/4 tbsp can bring a gallon of tap-water from 7.4 to 6.3.
2.Phosphoric acid. lowers pH and provides Phosphor too!
3.Nitric acid. lowers pH.
4.Hydrochloric acid. strongest way to lower pH
5.Hydrated lime. flush soil with a teaspoon per gallon of water to raise pH.
6.Baking Soda. eats acids to raise pH.
7.Calcium carbonate. raises pH (very strong)
8.Potassium silicate. raises pH.

What are signs of a PH fluctuation in my Cannabis plant?

A Cannabis plant can show signs of a pH flux in several ways. The leaves may begin to turn yellow or brown, dry up and/or shrivel on the sides into a straw like shape. Keep in mind however that other deficiencies and disorders may show the same signs of damage, so don't jump to conclusions until you do some testing and adjusting to your plants and their growing medium. 

Some things to remember(I didn't write these ones)

1.Always test the pH of raw water and drainage water with a pH meter.
2.Raw water pH above 6.0 helps keep fertilizer mixes from becoming too acidic.
3.The pH level is much more important in organic soil gardens than in chemical 
hydroponic gardens. The pH dictates the environment of bacteria necessary to the 
uptake of organic nutrients.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 7, 2014)

I disagree with the last statement #3. pH is critical for both applications as the plants will not take in nutrients with incorrect pH in either system. It is typically less of an issue for organic growers as the microbe herd will take care of the pH if it is not waay off.


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## trillions of atoms (Feb 8, 2014)

Yup...that num three is bass ackwards.


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## DrFever (Feb 8, 2014)




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## Surfer Joe (Feb 11, 2014)

bigweedo said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> I have hard water (just tested 115 PPM out of tap.) It seems like I run into the same problem at 3 weeks into flowering. My plants start to yellow and turn crazy colors. Daytime and night time temps are in the high 60's and low 70's. pH is 6.5, seems like everything is good.
> 
> ...



My tap water is 290ppm and I have not had any problems so far in the soil or the hydro plant.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 11, 2014)

That definitely doesn't sound like calcium deficiency. Having heavy water isn't necessarily a problem depending on what it is that is making it heavy. Most often, especially in Europe, the high mineral comes from calcitic lime deposits that dissolve lots of calcium into the water. I know high calcium will cause something else to lock out but I can't remember what it is. I want to say it is phosphorous, which would account for the issue showing up around the 3rd week of flower as that is when the plant starts using a lot of phosphorous more.


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## shuggy4105 (Mar 23, 2014)

Potassium and Boron can get locked out with too much Calcium.
How have they responded so far, and to what?
I live in a hard water area, lime is the buffer I use to keep ph in check.
Green Mojo comin at ya bro


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