# LED lights



## schlendrake (Apr 6, 2007)

Has anyone heard of using led lights for growing before? I've been seeing this more and more on the net and was wondering the if it works and how well/bad.


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## AlienBait (Apr 6, 2007)

Didn't we just have this conversation...?

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11398

I'm using LEDs for my grow on this thread:

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10461


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## AlienBait (Apr 6, 2007)

I just noticed that you already asked me about them in the 16 oz. cup thread.  Do you need more info?


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 6, 2007)

schlendrake said:
			
		

> Has anyone heard of using led lights for growing before? I've been seeing this more and more on the net and was wondering the if it works and how well/bad.


From what I've read on the subject, LED's work great for growing as long as the grow is kept within scale with the lights. Lumens....the great limiting factor with all lighting for plants. Spectrum and lumens.

The cost of LED's is another factor. If one were to buy a premade board with enough lights for a maxed out 3 ft x 5ft grow at 5,000 lumens per/sq ft, the cost as I understand it, would be huge.


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## AlienBait (Apr 6, 2007)

The price is coming down.  6 months ago, the equivilant of a 400W HPS cost $1,300.00.  The price for the same unit is down to $1,100.00.  Still too expensive, but with more companies making them, the price will continue to come down.  

I think in a year or two, it will be cost effective.  Until then, I'll just use the few that I have to grow one plant at a time for experimental purposes (like the 16oz cup grow).

Here is the company I bought mine from (it has a ton of info):
http://www.gro-tek.com/

Don't buy them from that website, though.  They are cheaper on ebay.com.


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 6, 2007)

AlienBait said:
			
		

> The price is coming down. 6 months ago, the equivalent of a 400W HPS cost $1,300.00. The price for the same unit is down to $1,100.00.


Youch! I use two 430 HPS in a 3 x 5 foot area. I hope they do bring the price down to a level that could be realistically used for growing a private stash.

What figures have you develops for electricity cost? Do you have any figures that would compare to a pair of 430 watt HPS on a 24/7 burn? What Kw cost?

Thanks for the info man. I'm very interested in this.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 6, 2007)

I'm not sure about these, but there is a guy on ebay who makes small panels of 245 led bulbs. It draws 9w. I think these $1300 systems are made up of the circular fixtures (see pic below). I might be wrong on that though, but the guy who listed this up on ebay said he paid $1300 for it so I'm going to assume it's the one we're talking about. Unfortunately the auction ended and I can't get the info from it about the company that makes it...I have a feeling it might be this company here www.ledgrowlights.com. I think you would need quite a bit of these to get a nice harvest from one plant though. I've been waiting to see someone do a grow completely from start to finish with only leds.


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 7, 2007)

LaserKittensGoPewPew said:
			
		

> I've been waiting to see someone do a grow completely from start to finish with only leds.


Unless some really rich guy comes along, I don't think we'll see a "pound" size grow happen any time soon.

Those puppies just cost too much!


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## AlienBait (Apr 7, 2007)

LaserKittens, that is a picture of what I was using as the "400 Watt HPS equivelent."  They go for around $1200.00 on this website:

http://www.growwithleds.com/ledproducts.htm

So, it is around $1000 more than a 400W HPS (with enhanced spectrum bulb).

It uses 80 watts.

So, lets to some math....

80 Watts x 24 hours x 30 days = 57600 Watt-Hours = 57.6 KWH/month
At $0.11/KWH (Yes, I pay a lot!), We have 57.6 x .11 =  $6.33/month

With a 430 Watt HPS
430 Watts x 24 Hours x 30 days = 309600 Watt-Hours = 309.6 KWH/month
At $0.11/KWH, We have 309.6 x .11 =  $34.06/month

*Difference = $27.73*

So, You would save $27.73 per month in energy by using the LEDs (maybe a little more because you wont need as much ventilation).

1000/27.73 = 36 months = 3 years.  SO, It would take 3 years to make back the initial investment in the LEDs in power savings.

And that is if their claims are true that their light is the equivelent of the 400W HPS.


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## Elephant Man (Apr 7, 2007)

AlienBait said:
			
		

> LaserKittens, that is a picture of what I was using as the "400 Watt HPS equivelent." They go for around $1200.00 on this website:
> 
> http://www.growwithleds.com/ledproducts.htm
> 
> ...


 
Great post...nice work Alien.  Just wanted to add we can also subtract the additional cooling an HID requires too.

Be careful with ebay as always...I tried to purchase a pre-made LED board fron Hong Kong...months later, never got the board and it was a big hassle getting my money back.  There is a thread here somewhere...

Nasa has done much work in space growing with LED's...there is some info on this site:
http://www.aeroponics.com/

There is also a thread...it is on another forum...rather not link to it...but it is the 'definitive' LED thread (TONS of info).

Normally, I would go copy and paste some stuff here from it for you guys...but a bit to busy lately...perhaps someone will though.

I think the only way to 'compare' is to grow...seems tough to convert 'micro-einsteins' to lumens on paper...but I have seen enough pics to know it works.

Nasa has a figure also for how many 'blue' and how many 'red' too...I forget...but I think it is 7 blue LED's for evey 100 (remmaining red).  It is in all that info somewhere...might be in the thread we had going months ago here...


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 7, 2007)

AlienBait said:
			
		

> LaserKittens, that is a picture of what I was using as the "400 Watt HPS equivelent." They go for around $1200.00 on this website:
> 
> http://www.growwithleds.com/ledproducts.htm
> 
> ...


Thanks for doing the math, man. That's impressive. I'm going to keep my eye on this company.

Do you know what the expected life span of the lights is?


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## AlienBait (Apr 7, 2007)

Stoney Bud said:
			
		

> Do you know what the expected life span of the lights is?


 
They claim 7-10 years of continuous use (24/0).


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## Dada (Apr 7, 2007)

That's the other factor that interested me -- the lifespan of the lights. I had heard that LED lifespan was even longer, but even 7-10 years is great. Factor in the cost of replacing your HID bulb every year and things begin to look even better for LEDs after the prices come down just a bit more. And if someone dives in, does a complete grow, and reports back, we'll have a good idea as to how well an entire grow goes with LEDs. I probably won't do a grow during the summer -- partly because of temps but also because I am going to get enough from my current grow to last me more than a year -- but I might be looking into doing a complete LED grow for the fall.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 7, 2007)

I have no problem paying the money up front for a quality product. I usually only try to buy the best quality stuff despite the price tag simple because I know it's going to work well and I'll enjoy it. I can't see spending less money on lower quality stuff and then having to end up buy another one when it breaks or buy a higher quality version. I would love to use the LED lights because of the advantages that come with them. All I'm waiting for is to see the technology proven. If someone can get the same results as an hps light with all leds, I would definitely go for the LEDs.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 10, 2007)

hmm...I've been trying to find info on adding UV lights to grows. Supposedly the plants produce more resin with the UV rays. I found out that they make 360nm bulbs. That's the lowest frequency I've found. It falls under UV-A...UV-B is what the sun puts out and I think it's 304-320nm or something. I wonder if it would just further make these things better if they added some UV bulbs to those clusters.


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## schlendrake (Apr 10, 2007)

i don't have a problem spending it but the amount that I would need for a 8x3 room would be very costly I would think. Has anyone thought of puttind red lenses over their lights? Just a thought, sounds crazy though.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 13, 2007)

Well...Just went up on ebay and found 900 LED panels being sold for 390 a piece. One of them is 900 blue 5mm bulbs. The other is a split of 450 red and 450 blue. The two color panel can switch between both on or one or the other on. You can also get a panel of 900 red bulbs too. It draws 78 watts.


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## DLtoker (Apr 13, 2007)

Wow... Nice.  That will cover a 4x4 area?


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 13, 2007)

mmm not sure about just 1 system. the demensions on it are 22 x 25 inches. You would probably need more than one. I really don't think these things put out anything near the same amount of lumens as say a 600w.  I'm sure if you surrounded the area on all 4 sides and then hand one at the top for a total of 5 or 6 of these you could get some pretty good results. But that is a major investment. In the end though, you would make it back in the lower electrical costs.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 13, 2007)

Alright well I was trying to find something to use to convert the light an LED puts out to lumens. You have to take a lot more into consideration to get an accurate intensity measurement from LEDs because it changes with the beam angle and all (there's a lot more that was just too much to comprehend mathematically and all the terminology). 

Anyway I found a conversion thing, but again it's not going to give you the most accurate reading because it doesn't take all the factores in measuring the light intensity of an LED. 

I entered the most intense beam angle, 20 degrees (there maybe be more intense, I have yet to see them though) and I put in for a red colored LED that emits 15,000 millicandelas. This number will change depending on the color. For this I used red. Entered that in to the conversion wizard and it spit out this...

luminous intensity (millicandelas)- 15000
beam angle (degrees)- 20

Approximate luminous flux: 1.432 lumens

As a point of reference, a standard 100W light bulb typically is rated at around 1,700 lumens in North America, and around 1,300 lumens in 220V areas of the world.


Take into consideration also though, that using the red and blue only you are able to feed the plant the two wavelengths it uses most efficiently for photosynthesis. So, you might not need as many lumens as you would need from a bulb that puts out a much broader range of wavelengths. 

Here is the conversion wizard if you feel like finding out how many millicandelas a blue LED puts out. 

http://led.linear1.org/lumen.wiz

And if you're interested in reading the more in depth description of how an LED's light is measured...here is the PDF.

http://www.olinet.com/pdfs/R24_LED-MEASUREMENT-ISSUES_NRC.pdf


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 14, 2007)

Excellent post LaserK !!!!

Thanks for doing the research.

LED's will grow a fine crop of buds, but the initial cost factor is the thing blocking their sale right now. Not many people can come up with several thousand dollars just for lighting.

Heck, a lot of people have problems affording HPS lights and only use about half what they should to maximize their crops.

I'll be waiting for that price to come down.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 20, 2007)

Found something that looks pretty darn cool.

They're called "fuzzlights". Basically they're 4ft LED tubes that will fit into your standard 4ft fluroescent tube fixtures. As all LEDs are...they're friggin expensive. Each of these LED tubes is going to cost you $150 bones. If you buy 10 bulbs at once they cut the price to $100 a piece for an even thousand. I think with 10 of these you could get some pretty nice results. They pop these up on ebay time to time for $125 and if you buy 2 they give you a 4ft fixture.


Here is the info straight off their website www.fuzzlight.com


A 10 bulb array will have the growing power of a 5000w HID bulb. only consume 150 watts and cover a 4x4 area. 

(I don't think it's anywhere near 5000w growing power. These guys are mostly using gorilla math to figure all this out and make their stuff sound like the holy grail of indoor grow lights.)

a 100 bulb array can be built to cover a 40x4 foot array and use only 1500 watts.



FUZZLIGHT SPECS:

15 watt per bulb 

t8 socket 

1.2m long 3.5 cm wide 

fits in 4 foot fluorescent lamp fixtures 

2:1 red blue standard led ratio 

220 470nm leds for flowering 

110 635nm leds for vegetative growth 

best color ratio for flowring plants 

according to universiyt research blue lights cause flowering earlier while maintaining " fruit size" 

(They fail to mention which university actually did this research and post a link to read about their findings)

Each LED produces 20-25millicandela of illumination 

Easy to install and no voltage transformers 

voltage Range 

AC 70-240V 60hz/50hz runs direct from line current.


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## Brouli (Apr 20, 2007)

LKGPP  
 thats a good find, i will order some of those next week and we will see




did you check those little cheaper
http://www.gro-tek.com/


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 20, 2007)

brouli

Yup, I was actually going to buy two sets of 7 and one extra blue and one more extra red. I'll have a total of 16 LED fixtures to position around my plant. On some occassions that company will release a full set of 7 on ebay starting for $1. By the end they usually get up around $120. Still better than paying the full $180 though.


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## AlienBait (Apr 20, 2007)

Interesting find LaserKittens.  I'll read up on those when I get a chance.  I did notice that the wavelength for the red seems a little short.  From what I've read, it should be around 660 nm.

Like you said, they are expensive.  I can't get them anyway, my grow room is only 34 inches x 34 inches.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 20, 2007)

Yeah, I'm not to sure how well those work. Only way to find out is if someone tries it out. 

I'm more interested in using the type that you have. By the way, what kind are yours? Your plant seems to be doing great under those 4. I'm seriously thinking about buying 16 giant growtek fixtures.

edit: What kind of socket fixtures do you use? You seem to be able to keep those lights pointed right where you want. Was wondering what you were using.


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## AlienBait (Apr 21, 2007)

LaserKittensGoPewPew said:
			
		

> Yeah, I'm not to sure how well those work. Only way to find out is if someone tries it out.
> 
> I'm more interested in using the type that you have. By the way, what kind are yours? Your plant seems to be doing great under those 4. I'm seriously thinking about buying 16 giant growtek fixtures.
> 
> edit: What kind of socket fixtures do you use? You seem to be able to keep those lights pointed right where you want. Was wondering what you were using.


 
Yeah, mine are from gro-tek.  Their auctions on ebay are very popular.  I keep loosing.  Might have to do a "Buy-It-Now."  They do that sometimes.

I see you want to buy their big ones.  That should work out better.  The ones I have are just for very small grows (like the 16 oz. cup grow).

The lighting fixtures are just some cheap ones I bought at the hardware store.  They have little metal brackes on them that are suppose to attach to a threaded rod for a hanging light.  I just screwed through the hole into the side of my box and bent the bracket to aim at the plant.  I think the fixtures cost $1.50 each (approx).

I really would like to see more people growing with LEDs.  The prices seem to be coming down quickly.  I think in a couple of years, it just might be cost effective.

I recently read something very interesting on another site.  They were saying that you need to have some light in the "deep red" spectrum to flower the plants properly.  Somewhere around 730 nm (that's almost infrared).  My lights don't have any LEDs that low.  They were recommending turning on a Halogen light for the last 15 minutes of "daylight."  That is suppose to alert that plant that night is coming (or something like that, I'm a little high, so I don't remember everything).  I am guessing a CFL will do the same thing.  I will mount one in the box this weekend.


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## Stoney Bud (Apr 21, 2007)

AlienBait said:
			
		

> I recently read something very interesting on another site. They were saying that you need to have some light in the "deep red" spectrum to flower the plants properly. Somewhere around 730 nm (that's almost infrared). My lights don't have any LEDs that low. They were recommending turning on a Halogen light for the last 15 minutes of "daylight." That is suppose to alert that plant that night is coming (or something like that, I'm a little high, so I don't remember everything). I am guessing a CFL will do the same thing. I will mount one in the box this weekend.


 
Halogen lights are almost worthless to plants and will harm them. Lights with the far red spectrum also do nothing for a plant grown under lights in a grow room. Plants will s-t-r-e-t-c-h when they "see" far red. This is because far red light is reflected, not used, by plants. This is NOT what you want your plants to do.

"Far-red light is reflected. Far-red is just outside the visible light spectrum. It is not visible to the human eye, but can be sensed by the plant. Far-red wavelengths are important to the plant because of the competition factor in nature. A plant can "SEE" when there are other plants close by because of the increase of far-red wavelengths the other plants reflect. This will then signal the plant to make the necessary adjustments within their system to try to outgrow the others around them since they are competing for sunlight and other resources."


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## Runbyhemp (Apr 21, 2007)

Fascinating thread


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## GrungBuk (May 6, 2007)

but how would you control the spectrum of blue and red with LEDs?

is there a way to control the intensity of each or what


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## schlendrake (May 6, 2007)

Hey Brouli thanks for the link. They seem to be very inexpensive there.


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## Brouli (May 6, 2007)

Ok bro


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (May 7, 2007)

GrungBuk said:
			
		

> but how would you control the spectrum of blue and red with LEDs?
> 
> is there a way to control the intensity of each or what


 
just add more blue to red. NASA found a good ratio of blue to red lights. Unfortunately I don't know what that ratio is.


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## wikkedsun (Jul 17, 2007)

i can get leds' 4 that equal a thousand for 800 bucks but they all run off of one ballist theres no heat the electric bill is a joke a friend of mine uses them and his n odes are super tight the lights are working great


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