# Nitrogen Deficiency in seedlings? (PICS)



## fortphoenix (Jan 19, 2016)

hey guys, i transplanted these into hydroton on december 30th and even though i overwatered them for the first week or so theres been real slow growth and the bottom leaves (theres only 3 or 4 sets of leaves) have been drooping/drying and turning yellow/white/brown and dying off and the new growth keeps coming up with yellowish tips. and the older the growth is, the more yellowish and light green the part of the plant seems to get.. its hard as hell to find picture comparisons of deficiencies for plants this small, i think its a nitrogen deficiency (or maybe magnesium?) but theyre so small its hard to tell and id hate to give them the extra nitrogen and be wrong, any thoughts?

strain- ak-48 by nirvana
water temp - 67, sterile res with 35% h2o2, 2 airstones, 20gal res
nutes - maxigro (i have "calmag plus though)
ph- 5.8-5.9
ppm- 300
flood &drain in rapid rooter and hydroton, 1gal pots, flood 4x per day (every 6 hours)
400w hps on 24/7
canopy temps 74-78 humidity 35-60%

the one thing Ive noticed is the 1 plant i re-transplanted (to check out the roots after overwatering) is now bigger and growing more then the other plant and the difference is the one i retransplanted is deeper in the pot then the other and the rapid rooter stays moist 24/7 whereas the other plants rapid rooter is bone dry, any comments or thoughts on that? also, the one i retransplanted has a few tiny red spots on one of the leaves if that means anything...either way, theyre both showing the same type of deficiency. any help is appreciated!! 

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## Grower13 (Jan 19, 2016)

I think maybe they(the plants) might have had a hard time getting nutrients when they first started out in the clay rocks......... maybe charge your rocks next time by soaking them in  the nutrient solution you'll be using before putting the plants in the pots...... the new growth looks good and green......... so unless it begins to fade to yellow you may be back on track already.


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## ShOrTbUs (Jan 19, 2016)

you should be running the water 24/7 and cut your ppms in half till they're a little bigger. they're not eating, but not because your nutrient solution isn't rich enough, but b/c they are thirsty.

for the suture,  if you want to set up a flood and drain situation, you might want to check out 6x6x6 rockwool.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 19, 2016)

LOL--here in comes what makes it so hard to learn to grow.....I am of a completely opposite mind from shortbus.  I would keep your flood and drain the same.  But I would up the nutrients somewhat.  When you grow in dirt, the plants obtain at least some nutrients from the dirt.  In hydro, they get all their nutrients from the water you use.  So, my first question is what is the ppms of your water before you put nutes in?  Are you getting any pH drift?

Next, I am getting on my soapbox--I am going to try and encourage you to go with another nutrient line.  General Hydroponics has been bought out my Scott's.  Scotts is in bed with Monsanto, a company that is poisoning the earth and killing the people on it.  And they don't care as long as they continue making the big bucks.  There are numerous companies that you can buy from that care about protecting our planet.  Stepping down off the soapbox now....


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## ShOrTbUs (Jan 19, 2016)

fort, are you exchanging the air within your space?

35-60% humidity is a pretty dramatic fluxuation. 35% before you flood and drain? and 60% shorty after?


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## fortphoenix (Jan 19, 2016)

Grower13 said:


> I think maybe they(the plants) might have had a hard time getting nutrients when they first started out in the clay rocks......... maybe charge your rocks next time by soaking them in  the nutrient solution you'll be using before putting the plants in the pots...... the new growth looks good and green......... so unless it begins to fade to yellow you may be back on track already.



thats a real good idea to soak the rocks in the nute solution first but the problem originally was that i put them in the hydroton with 1gal pot way too early but thats kind of what scares me is the new leaves start out a nice green.... but everyday, the older leaves keep getting more and more light green and its now at a point to where the lowest leaves are completely yellow/white and dying off


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## fortphoenix (Jan 19, 2016)

ShOrTbUs said:


> you should be running the water 24/7 and cut your ppms in half till they're a little bigger. they're not eating, but not because your nutrient solution isn't rich enough, but b/c they are thirsty.
> 
> for the suture,  if you want to set up a flood and drain situation, you might want to check out 6x6x6 rockwool.





ShOrTbUs said:


> fort, are you exchanging the air within your space?
> 
> 35-60% humidity is a pretty dramatic fluxuation. 35% before you flood and drain? and 60% shorty after?



so you think they aren't getting watered enough? and I've done all my research on rock wool and to be honest i dont think the stuff is for me. it might have been easier to start with for my first hydro but id just rather stay away from the stuff but the humidity very slightly goes up when it floods, i say 35-60 because sometimes it gets as high as 60 when i have my humidifier maxed out but it usually stays around 45%


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## fortphoenix (Jan 19, 2016)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> LOL--here in comes what makes it so hard to learn to grow.....I am of a completely opposite mid from shortbus.  I would keep your flood and drain the same.  But I would up the nutrients somewhat.  When you grow in dirt, the plants obtain at least some nutrients from the dirt.  In hydro, they get all their nutrients from the water you use.  So, my first question is what is the ppms of your water before you put nutes in?  Are you getting any pH drift?
> 
> Next, I am getting on my soapbox--I am going to try and encourage you to go with another nutrient line.  General Hydroponics has been bought out my Scott's.  Scotts is in bed with Monsanto, a company that is poisoning the earth and killing the people on it.  And they don't care as long as they continue making the big bucks.  There are numerous companies that you can buy from that care about protecting our planet.  Stepping down off the soapbox now....


hey hemp goddess, i posted this same question on another site and a few people said the same as you, that its my nutrients that need got be upped but my water its about 100-120ppm so technically my nute solution is only around 200ppm and my ph barely drifts, the most I've seen it drift was .8 up so it was at 5.92. so how many ppms total would you suggest? some guy suggested that i foliar feed them fish emulsions (or something like that) to bring the nitrogen up, any thoughts on that? and yeah i didn't hear about the monsanto aqusition until after i bought the nutes which pisses me off because i hate monsanto and go out of my way to buy food that doesnt contain gmo's or roundup. so i definitely don't want to smoke a monsanto product either lol


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 21, 2016)

As hydro nutrients affect the plant almost immediately, I would feed them rather than giving them a foliar feeding.  I have never used the Maxi products, so an not familiar with exactly how they work.  With water that high in PPMs, I think I would be for buying bottled water if running hydro.  Are you letting the water sit out for 12-24 hours to allow the chlorine to evaporate out?  The high PPMs of the starting water could be causing you problems.  I personally would start with water that is low in PPMs and keep the *nutrient level* at 300 to 400 PPMs.  Also, start your nutrient solution at a bit lower pH and see if it drifts up a bit.  There is not really a single pH level that allows uptake of all nutrients.  A little drift is good.  What are you using to measure your pH?


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## fortphoenix (Jan 22, 2016)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> As hydro nutrients affect the plant almost immediately, I would feed them rather than giving them a foliar feeding.  I have never used the Maxi products, so an not familiar with exactly how they work.  With water that high in PPMs, I think I would be for buying bottled water if running hydro.  Are you letting the water sit out for 12-24 hours to allow the chlorine to evaporate out?  The high PPMs of the starting water could be causing you problems.  I personally would start with water that is low in PPMs and keep the *nutrient level* at 300 to 400 PPMs.  Also, start your nutrient solution at a bit lower pH and see if it drifts up a bit.  There is not really a single pH level that allows uptake of all nutrients.  A little drift is good.  What are you using to measure your pH?



you think its really high? i thought my ppms in the water were decent but no i don't let it sit out, i just pour it in and use it... you think it would be worth investing in a r.o system? my ppms are at 400 right now and have stayed steady at 400 and somebody else suggested i lower my ph to 5.5 aswell but my ph was 5.82 last night and was at 5.9 when i got home a few hours ago, is that the type of drift you're talking about? but i have a hanna phep5 ph meter and for ppms i have a regular bluelab ppm/ec/temp pen. another thing, I'm also afraid the plant that has the rapid rooter deeper in the pot (the one growing way faster) is going to get overwatered once i start flooding more often. you think i should take the plant out and reposition it or you think should just keep both plugs where they're at and see how they make out? sort of like an experiment, even though I'm really not trying to lose anymore seeds lol the plant thats clearly barely growing is the one with a super dry rapid rooter that isn't touching the water but that one was also way smaller/slower from the start, any thoughts on that? thank you for all your tips and help thus far


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 22, 2016)

Don't worry about "overwatering" with hydro. Its impossible to overwater in hydro (believe it or not). The "overwatering" becomes a problem when you don't have *enough **oxygen* in the water. The key to that is to have a good solid air pump that is blowing major bubbles in the rez *continuously*, and keeping the water temps between 65-70f. If you have those 2 things happening, then you can literally keep the plants roots submerged without any issues. If you can, setting the air pump up higher in the grow rooms will allow it to pump more oxygen into the water as O2 is lighter and floats higher in the rooms. BUT, you have to be careful to monitor the temps so that the warmer air up high doesn't run the water temps up too high.


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 22, 2016)

Also, if the seedlings have yellowed cotyledons(the little round "seed" leaves) then you need to raise the ppm of the solution to about 350-400ppm as the roots are usually well established by the time the cotyledons yellow off. Also, having the seedlings under the HPS isn't helping as the light frequency doesn't feed the leaves well enough during veg. They need the 6500k light of the T5 floros.

As for the beginning ppm of the water, you need to have it tested to see what that is that is in the water. Its not terribly high but its enough to adversely affect the plants at this point. Once you know whats IN the water, then you can adjust and account for it (if needed)


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 22, 2016)

It is imperative that you let water sit out for 12 hours or so before you add nutrients.  Part of your PPMs could well be chlorine and it could well be that chlorine is causing at least part of your problems.  If you have a small air pump and an air stone, bubbling helps the chlorine evaporate quicker.  Let's see what your PPMs are when you get rid of the chlorine.  ROs are expensive and waste a lot of water, so unless you really need one, it is not a good use of your money.  For a small grow, buying bottled water may be a better option. 

Re:  pH drift--yes, that is what I am talking about.  As pH generally tends to drift up, we often start at the low end of acceptable pH range and let it drift up to 6.0 r so.

I wouldn't worry about the rapid rooter that is deeper.  When I do DWC, I set the rapid rooters right on the bottom of the net cups and fill the res until it is at the bottom of the cups until the roots grow through the cup.   They do not get/stay overwet.  I also think you are transplanting too early.  Let the plants get a couple of sets of leaves and very good root growth from the cube before transplanting into such large containers.  It wastes nutrients when they are this small and it makes it very hard to deliver the right amount of moisture to the plants.


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## fortphoenix (Jan 22, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> Don't worry about "overwatering" with hydro. Its impossible to overwater in hydro (believe it or not). The "overwatering" becomes a problem when you don't have *enough **oxygen* in the water. The key to that is to have a good solid air pump that is blowing major bubbles in the rez *continuously*, and keeping the water temps between 65-70f. If you have those 2 things happening, then you can literally keep the plants roots submerged without any issues. If you can, setting the air pump up higher in the grow rooms will allow it to pump more oxygen into the water as O2 is lighter and floats higher in the rooms. BUT, you have to be careful to monitor the temps so that the warmer air up high doesn't run the water temps up too high.





Hushpuppy said:


> Also, if the seedlings have yellowed cotyledons(the little round "seed" leaves) then you need to raise the ppm of the solution to about 350-400ppm as the roots are usually well established by the time the cotyledons yellow off. Also, having the seedlings under the HPS isn't helping as the light frequency doesn't feed the leaves well enough during veg. They need the 6500k light of the T5 floros.
> 
> As for the beginning ppm of the water, you need to have it tested to see what that is that is in the water. Its not terribly high but its enough to adversely affect the plants at this point. Once you know whats IN the water, then you can adjust and account for it (if needed)



that makes total sense and my air pump  is on top of my tent and i assume i have plenty of air blowing in the res (2 4" air stones powered by 127gph at pump) but my res temps are good, 67.8 degrees at this very moment but thats a real good tip i never thought about with making sure the air pump isn't blowing hot air but I'm thinking about getting a reverse osmosis setup and using half r.o and half tap water just to lighten up the ppms but yeah the cotyledons are completely yellow/brown and i raised the ppm to 400 and yeah i learned my lesson with the hps but right my my t5 is being used by some northern lights i just sprouted like a week ago. which i wanted to ask you, what does the curling up of leaf tips mean? one of my northern lights was severely underwatered (leafs drooping and touching the stem) so watering them and in about an hour they popped back but their tips seem like they're drying out and they're pointed up which happened to me on a previous plant and i cant find any info on it. ill post a pic of my ak-48s and the northern light in question. thanks for the help 

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## fortphoenix (Jan 22, 2016)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> It is imperative that you let water sit out for 12 hours or so before you add nutrients.  Part of your PPMs could well be chlorine and it could well be that chlorine is causing at least part of your problems.  If you have a small air pump and an air stone, bubbling helps the chlorine evaporate quicker.  Let's see what your PPMs are when you get rid of the chlorine.  ROs are expensive and waste a lot of water, so unless you really need one, it is not a good use of your money.  For a small grow, buying bottled water may be a better option.
> 
> Re:  pH drift--yes, that is what I am talking about.  As pH generally tends to drift up, we often start at the low end of acceptable pH range and let it drift up to 6.0 r so.
> 
> I wouldn't worry about the rapid rooter that is deeper.  When I do DWC, I set the rapid rooters right on the bottom of the net cups and fill the res until it is at the bottom of the cups until the roots grow through the cup.   They do not get/stay overwet.  I also think you are transplanting too early.  Let the plants get a couple of sets of leaves and very good root growth from the cube before transplanting into such large containers.  It wastes nutrients when they are this small and it makes it very hard to deliver the right amount of moisture to the plants.



damn i was under the impression that the chlorine and my ppms was straight but yes i have 2 air stones powered by 127 gph pump but i was thinking about getting a r.o filter and mix tap with r.o water but my ph was actually a 5.95 after just checking it, you think i should lower it? but yea i learned my lesson on transplanting early now i just had a watering problem i explained to hushpuppy. i posted updated pictures above as well


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 23, 2016)

That curling is probably from the unbalanced moisture level in the medium. I would be watering those 5-6x in a 24hr period. the reason being that the Hydroton doesn't hold a lot of moisture and has large air spaces inbetween the pebbles that can allow the roots to dry out some between waterings. That is causing the seedlings to struggle. The pebbles aren't going to hold very much nutrients in or on them that would be available to the roots except when they are fully wet. being under warm light, there is going to be a lot of drying which will make it easier for the pebbles and roots to dry out.

I have plants in 3gal netpots of coco coir that are suspended over water, with roots hanging in the water and I still water them 3x in 24hrs to maintain the level of moisture around the feeder roots that are in the coco.


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 23, 2016)

If you want an easier time of starting seedlings and getting them good and healthy before going to the hydro system? I suggest you get some of the red/blue 12oz solo cups and a bag of coco croutons. Then take a nail and get it hot enough to melt 3-4 holes at the bottom outside of the cups so that they will drain out water. Fill the cups with the croutons and then soak them with a solution of water/calmag/root tonic. Then create a hole in the center of the medium and set you rooter cubes in it and slightly bury the rooter with the croutons. Hand water these and keep them in 76-78f air space until they get about 4-5 leaf nodes on them, then you can slide the whole root mass and croutons in one piece out of the cup and into the net pots and fill with the pebbles. At that point you can set them straight into the vegging space in the hydro system.

I would say to keep the seedlings in the cups for about 2 weeks. As soon as the cotyledons begin to yellow, begin to mix a small amount of grow nutrients into the solution. As the plants start to take off growing, you need to gradually increase the strength of the nutrients. You can cut off the root tonic once the cotyledons yellow off completely.


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 23, 2016)

As for the water issue itself. It will be cheaper to take a water sample and have it tested. Or if you are on public water, contact the water department and ask them what is in the water to account for the level of TDS that is there, and determine what is the predominant element in the water. 

Don't worry about them asking you why you want to know this because they get this question constantly from companies and businesses in the area. If they do ask why, just tell them that you are the owner of multiple rental properties in the area and you want to know if you need to install filtration systems on these properties


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## fortphoenix (Jan 23, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> That curling is probably from the unbalanced moisture level in the medium. I would be watering those 5-6x in a 24hr period. the reason being that the Hydroton doesn't hold a lot of moisture and has large air spaces inbetween the pebbles that can allow the roots to dry out some between waterings. That is causing the seedlings to struggle. The pebbles aren't going to hold very much nutrients in or on them that would be available to the roots except when they are fully wet. being under warm light, there is going to be a lot of drying which will make it easier for the pebbles and roots to dry out.
> 
> I have plants in 3gal netpots of coco coir that are suspended over water, with roots hanging in the water and I still water them 3x in 24hrs to maintain the level of moisture around the feeder roots that are in the coco.





Hushpuppy said:


> If you want an easier time of starting seedlings and getting them good and healthy before going to the hydro system? I suggest you get some of the red/blue 12oz solo cups and a bag of coco croutons. Then take a nail and get it hot enough to melt 3-4 holes at the bottom outside of the cups so that they will drain out water. Fill the cups with the croutons and then soak them with a solution of water/calmag/root tonic. Then create a hole in the center of the medium and set you rooter cubes in it and slightly bury the rooter with the croutons. Hand water these and keep them in 76-78f air space until they get about 4-5 leaf nodes on them, then you can slide the whole root mass and croutons in one piece out of the cup and into the net pots and fill with the pebbles. At that point you can set them straight into the vegging space in the hydro system.
> 
> I would say to keep the seedlings in the cups for about 2 weeks. As soon as the cotyledons begin to yellow, begin to mix a small amount of grow nutrients into the solution. As the plants start to take off growing, you need to gradually increase the strength of the nutrients. You can cut off the root tonic once the cotyledons yellow off completely.





Hushpuppy said:


> As for the water issue itself. It will be cheaper to take a water sample and have it tested. Or if you are on public water, contact the water department and ask them what is in the water to account for the level of TDS that is there, and determine what is the predominant element in the water.
> 
> Don't worry about them asking you why you want to know this because they get this question constantly from companies and businesses in the area. If they do ask why, just tell them that you are the owner of multiple rental properties in the area and you want to know if you need to install filtration systems on these properties



so watering the seedlings should i use a slight bit of maxigro or calmag plus? and do you think i should water them with bottled water or use tap? it seemed like the seedlings were doing very well until the rapid rooters got too dry now its hard as hell to keep them evenly moist so I'm going to try watering more often. it just sucks because theres a huge difference on how the hydroton and rapid rooter hold water so you have to find like the perfect watering amount and i had them like 3" from the t5 (2 24w bulbs) but you could see they're getting light burned so i put them further away from the light but the cotyledons are already turning yellow and I definitely think this is going to be the last time i start seeds like this its been pretty stressful trying to start them the way i have but i tried calling my water department and they're close until monday but i think I'm going to buy a r.o. system anyway because i was doing more research on them and i had no idea they filtered out as much stuff as they do, like the r.o is the ultimate water cleaner, just sucks its like 2-3 hundred for a decent one that pumps out a decent amount of gallons per day


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 24, 2016)

I would say at this point, you are probably better off using bottled water and the calmag(2ml) and about 2ml of maxigro to 1 gal of water.


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## fortphoenix (Jan 24, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> I would say at this point, you are probably better off using bottled water and the calmag(2ml) and about 2ml of maxigro to 1 gal of water.



alright man thanks for the advice, i ended up re-potting the slow growing ak so it wat deeper in the pot and took a few pics of the roots. i rinsed then dipped the plug in a mix of peroxide and water and rinsed the hydroton with peroxide. some of the roots were kinda brown but they weren't like slimey either and didnt smell so i guess thats a good thing 

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## Hushpuppy (Jan 24, 2016)

I can't swear to it as I'm not there to see the roots with my own eyes, but they look like they have been stressed from being allowed to dry out to much between waterings. So burying the rooter deeper will help some but also make sure to water them enough. As I said before, with hydro you can under water but you can't over water as long as the water is well aerated. So technically, you could run a waterline up to each plant from the pump in the rez and run the water on a continuous drain and the plants would do great.

I wouldn't go to that right now as these seedlings are struggling, but you could top feed these on a schedule just like you would with the flooding. Have them water 6x or every 4hrs so that they don't dry out.


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## fortphoenix (Jan 26, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> I can't swear to it as I'm not there to see the roots with my own eyes, but they look like they have been stressed from being allowed to dry out to much between waterings. So burying the rooter deeper will help some but also make sure to water them enough. As I said before, with hydro you can under water but you can't over water as long as the water is well aerated. So technically, you could run a waterline up to each plant from the pump in the rez and run the water on a continuous drain and the plants would do great.
> 
> I wouldn't go to that right now as these seedlings are struggling, but you could top feed these on a schedule just like you would with the flooding. Have them water 6x or every 4hrs so that they don't dry out.



whats weird is the roots closest and touching the rapid rooter were the whitest with the most fuzzy hairs but they were also the skinniest snd probably most fragile, you can tell they were dry too but that definitely wouldn't be a bad idea once the plants are established since all i would need is the hose but i definitely need to get the flood and drain down before i try anything else and i was thinking about flooding every 4 hours, you think its time? i was also thinking about bringing the ppm up to 500 and someone said i should start adding my calmag plus, any thoughts on that? this stuff is just getting really annoying because in 4 days these plants are going to be in the hydroton a month and the shorter ak is only like 2.5" tall. its so frustrating


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 26, 2016)

Well the problem is you started out wrong(and we've already figured that part out for next time) but that put you in a tail spin and now you are having to gradually pull the kids back out of it, and that takes a while when the roots have been damaged. That is why the seedling stage is sooo critical. Until those roots are established, the seedling is literally living on borrowed time. It makes sense that the roots closest to the rooter look the best as they are younger and have not been over dried. The initial roots that went out looking for water and nutes got really whacked and not the seedling (which has nearly used up the reserve nutrients in those cotyledons) is having to rebuild new roots with very little nutrients to pull from. 

The problem now is that you have to be careful to not give the newest roots too much nutrient or they will burn up. I wouldn't raise the ppm to 500 yet. I would keep it no higher than ~350ppm for now and (regardless of whether you flood and drain or top feed/water) water them 4-6x a day. I would start with 4x and check the clay pebbles just before the next water and see how dry they are inside. If they are still drying out, go to 6x a day. Even though they need the nutes, giving them a higher dose is going to hurt more than help. Having the lower dose available to them constantly and consistently will pull them through. You must be patient with them and pull them out at their speed or they will crash on you.


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## fortphoenix (Jan 27, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> Well the problem is you started out wrong(and we've already figured that part out for next time) but that put you in a tail spin and now you are having to gradually pull the kids back out of it, and that takes a while when the roots have been damaged. That is why the seedling stage is sooo critical. Until those roots are established, the seedling is literally living on borrowed time. It makes sense that the roots closest to the rooter look the best as they are younger and have not been over dried. The initial roots that went out looking for water and nutes got really whacked and not the seedling (which has nearly used up the reserve nutrients in those cotyledons) is having to rebuild new roots with very little nutrients to pull from.
> 
> The problem now is that you have to be careful to not give the newest roots too much nutrient or they will burn up. I wouldn't raise the ppm to 500 yet. I would keep it no higher than ~350ppm for now and (regardless of whether you flood and drain or top feed/water) water them 4-6x a day. I would start with 4x and check the clay pebbles just before the next water and see how dry they are inside. If they are still drying out, go to 6x a day. Even though they need the nutes, giving them a higher dose is going to hurt more than help. Having the lower dose available to them constantly and consistently will pull them through. You must be patient with them and pull them out at their speed or they will crash on you.



yeah that makes sense and I'm just really worried about the dying leaves and yellowish/lime green color on the leaves and i just noticed the stems are a red/violet type color, i just sterilized absolutely everything today but unfortunately i put 500ppm, could i up the ppm if i put the light closer or if i put the light closer and watered more often? although the lower ppm with more frequent flooding definitely does sound better for recovery, I'm just afraid whatever deficiency I'm having is going to make things worse if i feed them less ppms.. I'm also battling another problem i transplanted my northern lights (in rapid rooter) on jan 14th to 5 net pots and was hand watering once a day but after about 5 or 6 days, the plug dried out on one of the plants and i tried re watering it from the top but it still wasnt moistening so i dipped the whole thing in water and it worked but shortly after the other northern lights plant out of nowhere became underwatered, so underwatered it wilted so bad that the leaves were touching and basically laying on the stem. so i watered them and they came back up but the tips of the leaves were pointing up and the tips started to turn crispy and dry, any idea what thats about? and like 4 days ago i put them closer to my 2-24w t5 (like 3"-4 away) and a day or 2 later the leaf tips are brown/burnt and the cotyledons are totally yellow/brown like the plants used everything in them... i have seen growth though, not very much but a little. so yesterday i hand watered with 5.8ph 250ppm maxigro and did the same again like 3 hours ago. the roots are still nowhere to be seen in the 5 net pot. any ideas on whats going on or what i should do or change? thanks bro. ill post pics of the 

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## wordwar-ingreenink (Jan 27, 2016)

Your having a tuff go aren't ya fortpheonix. Just be patient some of the best help is here you may have to come to terms with this grow being shot but you'll have all correct info to begin again. Not saying to give up on this round just yet but yeah I'm sure you get my gist.


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## wordwar-ingreenink (Jan 27, 2016)

I believe the purple stems and leaves like that may be a magnesium deficiency.


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## fortphoenix (Jan 28, 2016)

wordwar-ingreenink said:


> Your having a tuff go aren't ya fortpheonix. Just be patient some of the best help is here you may have to come to terms with this grow being shot but you'll have all correct info to begin again. Not saying to give up on this round just yet but yeah I'm sure you get my gist.





wordwar-ingreenink said:


> I believe the purple stems and leaves like that may be a magnesium deficiency.



yeah definitely a rough start lol, things are starting to look up though, only thing I've notice is some brown spots on the 3rd set of leaves (middle) and the older leaves are curling up and dying so i think its either that or calcium from what i can see of a deficiency chart, i want to add some "calmag plus" but my ppm are already at 500


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 28, 2016)

Hey I actually spent 30 minutes giving you some information but the system shut me out and wouldn't let my response function right


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 28, 2016)

So lets try this again. Don't over think this. you are seeing all kinds of deficiency symptoms because the plants' roots have suffered and many have died from drying out too much, too often, and at too young an age. Those new roots were generated by the food of the cotyledons, but then the dry periods caused many of those longer roots to die so that the plants are not able to take in the water and nutes they need to keep going, so they have foundered. 

Now they are trying to rebuild new roots to do what they need, however, they no longer have the abundant resource of the cotyledons to pull from and on several of them, the leaves aren't strong enough to stand being foliar fed. So the whole process has slowed to a crawl. Its kind of like a baby being born without a mouth that makes it able to take in milk from the mother. The babies are now having to rob elements from the living tissue in an attempt to rebuild the mouth it needs to eat. Right now, they have redeveloped small nostrils that allow them to take in small amounts of water and nutrients, and these small things are just keeping the plants alive, but its helping. It is just going to take longer.

Be patient and *water them more often **(with well aerated water)* You won't drown them as long as the water you use is well aerated. Don't try to do anything else at this point as they MUST grow and repair at their own speed. You can't speed up the healing process or they will crash.


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## Hushpuppy (Jan 28, 2016)

I would highly recommend that you pick up a bottle of Root66,(all you need is the small bottle as it doesn't take much) which is a root tonic that gives the plants some of the elements that it needs for specifically building roots. I use this on all of my clones and seedlings to get their root mass built up well before the plants take off into the veg stage. I would also recommend that you get a small bottle of Thrive Alive. This is a plant tonic that helps the younger plants get going good with several of the micro elements that young plants need to get going good. I only use about half of what each of these recommend but I can tell that they do work well.

Increase the watering on the plants that are hand watered. Don't let them dry out at all if you can help it. Increase the flooding to 6x in 24hrs. The 500ppm is a little high but I think it will be ok. Make sure the pH stays right at 5.8-6.0 for now. Don't let it drift far from 5.9 if you can help it right now. In a few days, add in some of the Root66 so that can help repair those roots. And be patient, you can't rush this


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## fortphoenix (Jan 29, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> Hey I actually spent 30 minutes giving you some information but the system shut me out and wouldn't let my response function right





Hushpuppy said:


> So lets try this again. Don't over think this. you are seeing all kinds of deficiency symptoms because the plants' roots have suffered and many have died from drying out too much, too often, and at too young an age. Those new roots were generated by the food of the cotyledons, but then the dry periods caused many of those longer roots to die so that the plants are not able to take in the water and nutes they need to keep going, so they have foundered.
> 
> Now they are trying to rebuild new roots to do what they need, however, they no longer have the abundant resource of the cotyledons to pull from and on several of them, the leaves aren't strong enough to stand being foliar fed. So the whole process has slowed to a crawl. Its kind of like a baby being born without a mouth that makes it able to take in milk from the mother. The babies are now having to rob elements from the living tissue in an attempt to rebuild the mouth it needs to eat. Right now, they have redeveloped small nostrils that allow them to take in small amounts of water and nutrients, and these small things are just keeping the plants alive, but its helping. It is just going to take longer.
> 
> Be patient and *water them more often **(with well aerated water)* You won't drown them as long as the water you use is well aerated. Don't try to do anything else at this point as they MUST grow and repair at their own speed. You can't speed up the healing process or they will crash.





Hushpuppy said:


> I would highly recommend that you pick up a bottle of Root66,(all you need is the small bottle as it doesn't take much) which is a root tonic that gives the plants some of the elements that it needs for specifically building roots. I use this on all of my clones and seedlings to get their root mass built up well before the plants take off into the veg stage. I would also recommend that you get a small bottle of Thrive Alive. This is a plant tonic that helps the younger plants get going good with several of the micro elements that young plants need to get going good. I only use about half of what each of these recommend but I can tell that they do work well.
> 
> Increase the watering on the plants that are hand watered. Don't let them dry out at all if you can help it. Increase the flooding to 6x in 24hrs. The 500ppm is a little high but I think it will be ok. Make sure the pH stays right at 5.8-6.0 for now. Don't let it drift far from 5.9 if you can help it right now. In a few days, add in some of the Root66 so that can help repair those roots. And be patient, you can't rush this



damn I'm sorry i know that mustve been really frustrating, thank you for typing a response over again though, i appreciate it!!! but i get exactly what you're saying and the growth has picked up a bit since my last comment  especially since i repotted my smaller AK so it was deeper in he pot... i was just really concerned with the calcium deficiency because i read it stunts growth but someone else told me to leave it alone too and the brown spots havent gotten any worse. I'm going to bring up flood times too and I'm making sure my PH is optimal, checking it every few hours as well. and I'm pretty sure my northern lights have recovered because they're growing (the damaged leaves still havent recovered and i assume they won't) and I'm hand watering the northern lights with 300ppm water... I'm thinking about just putting the northern lights in the flood table in the beginning of february but not underneath the light, in the corner/edge of the tray, even though they're doing fine with the 300ppm and they've been sprouted 20 days I'm just afraid the 500ppm will be too much for young plants, plus transplanting too early is what originally fucked me with the AK48 lol but I'm wondering if those products you mentioned work with h2o2. someone mentioned the root66 to me before but i cant remember if it works with h2o2. it sucks though, I've woke up the past 2 mornings with everything in my tent shut off (good thing it hasn't been more then 6 hours each time) for absolutely no reason. and the worst part is my humidifier thats plugged into the wall instead of the 6-way extension cord w/switch kept humidifying and had my room at 90% humidity, so i switched my humidifier plug with my airstone plug so if it happens again atleast my humidifier will shut off and my water will stay aerated and prevent mold/algae buildup. i just hope that didnt mess with the plants too much


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 1, 2016)

Yeah, you need to look into that. At this early stage, you definitely don't want the lights and heat cutting off. Those plants have struggled a while now and keeping everything balanced and stable is what they need to get over the hump.

Don't worry about the dead and dying leaves at this point. As the plants recover and take off, they will use up any available nutrients in those leaves to build new leaves, and then the plants will just drop those damaged leaves when they are done with them. Within a few weeks of normal growth, those little damaged leaves will be gone and forgotten.

Once you see the hand watered plants begin to take off with new growth, then you can move them to the 500ppm. Then as they all respond and begin taking off growing, you can increase the nutes to 800ppm for "full veg"


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## fortphoenix (Feb 2, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> Yeah, you need to look into that. At this early stage, you definitely don't want the lights and heat cutting off. Those plants have struggled a while now and keeping everything balanced and stable is what they need to get over the hump.
> 
> Don't worry about the dead and dying leaves at this point. As the plants recover and take off, they will use up any available nutrients in those leaves to build new leaves, and then the plants will just drop those damaged leaves when they are done with them. Within a few weeks of normal growth, those little damaged leaves will be gone and forgotten.
> 
> Once you see the hand watered plants begin to take off with new growth, then you can move them to the 500ppm. Then as they all respond and begin taking off growing, you can increase the nutes to 800ppm for "full veg"


yeah things have definitely gotten better but i assume they still aren't growing anywhere near as fast as they should, even though their growth has improved, i actually really white/fuzzy roots coming out of the top of the rapid rooter in the taller AK but now I'm facing some sort of calcium deficiency i think. i got rust/dead spots on lower/middle leaves (really hard to get a picture of it) and lower leaves still yellowing and slight yellowing on new growth tips. I've been letting my ph run a little high (let it go to 6.2 then drop it back down) to try and have better up take of the calcium. I'm just compelled on if i should use my cal-mag plus because as it is my tap water is 150ppm and the calmag plus adds 60ppm per ml/gal and the bottle recommends 3-5ml so even if i use 2.5 ml/gal ill already be at 300ppm before i even add any maxigro which is why I've been trying to see if letting the ph drift a little bit will work. I'm thinking it might because so far it has drifted from 5.8 to 6.1 then down to 5.93 in the course of a couple floods 

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## wordwar-ingreenink (Feb 2, 2016)

They look alot better but they do still look a little hungry


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 2, 2016)

yeah it looks like they are going to be fine now (the bigger ones). I would increase the nutrients to 500-600ppm and add the calmag. The smaller ones, you need to keep at a lower dose for another few days until you see them get more growth under them. After you move to feeding the bigger ones, give them a week to see how they react to the higher dose of nutes. If it is positive all the way, then you can increase on the next run to 700-800ppm and that should be good for full growth. Being in that hydro, you will need to keep the calmag going at about 3ml per gallon I think. And then when they go to flower, increase it to 4-5ml per gallon.


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## fortphoenix (Feb 2, 2016)

wordwar-ingreenink said:


> They look alot better but they do still look a little hungry



thanks and yeah thats whats messing me, up i cant tell if its a deficiency because my ppm isn't high enough or because the maxigro lacks nutes and its sucks too because my ppms raise like 50-100ppm per week on their own from the dissolved water because i don't have a cover on my res


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## fortphoenix (Feb 2, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> yeah it looks like they are going to be fine now (the bigger ones). I would increase the nutrients to 500-600ppm and add the calmag. The smaller ones, you need to keep at a lower dose for another few days until you see them get more growth under them. After you move to feeding the bigger ones, give them a week to see how they react to the higher dose of nutes. If it is positive all the way, then you can increase on the next run to 700-800ppm and that should be good for full growth. Being in that hydro, you will need to keep the calmag going at about 3ml per gallon I think. And then when they go to flower, increase it to 4-5ml per gallon.



yeah I'm definitely going to bring up the ppm and see how it works for me and I'm definitely going to be adding the cal-mag because i can start to see the shorter AK developing some sort of deficiency, I'm thinking about just grabbing a reverse osmosis system (200 GPD for $225) tomorrow so i know my water is starting from a clean slate but thank you so much for sticking with me and helping me out this whole time hushpuppy i really do appreciate it man!!


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 3, 2016)

No problem my friend  That's why I'm here, I enjoy helping new growers get going, and helping older growers who have forgot something that a fresh, experienced brain can see more easily. I used to be an electronics/mechanical technician. Analytical troubleshooting is my mindset, so now that I am unable to do what I used to do, I enjoy doing it for MJ growers.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 3, 2016)

Don't let the ppm trip you up though. It is important as it gives you information that you need to optimize the conditions of the grow, but it isn't always so critical as it is for seedlings. Its so important for seedlings because they have new tender roots that need to get established before getting hit with (chemical)nutrients, and there is no back up roots if they get burned up. 

But once the roots have established themselves and get some chemical bath, they get used to it and are able to quickly ramp up the ppm (which is the concentration of the chemicals in the medium or solution). The littlest seedlings are still needing special care but the larger ones are good to go on ramping up the nutes. 

You will see your ppm numbers rise many times, especially in hydro where you are continuously checking. But you will get the hang of knowing how far to let the ppm rise before having to change the water. many times, you will see the ppm rise and think the plants aren't eating but that is just the plants have drank more than they ate which caused the ratio of chems to water to rise.


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 4, 2016)

fortphoenix said:


> so you think they aren't getting watered enough? and I've done all my research on rock wool and to be honest i dont think the stuff is for me. it might have been easier to start with for my first hydro but id just rather stay away from the stuff but the humidity very slightly goes up when it floods, i say 35-60 because sometimes it gets as high as 60 when i have my humidifier maxed out but it usually stays around 45%



rockwool is common in flood and drain setup's for their ability to retain a lot of moisture for long periods of time. rapid rooters & hydroton drain much too quickly.


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## fortphoenix (Feb 4, 2016)

Hushpuppy said:


> No problem my friend  That's why I'm here, I enjoy helping new growers get going, and helping older growers who have forgot something that a fresh, experienced brain can see more easily. I used to be an electronics/mechanical technician. Analytical troubleshooting is my mindset, so now that I am unable to do what I used to do, I enjoy doing it for MJ growers.





Hushpuppy said:


> Don't let the ppm trip you up though. It is important as it gives you information that you need to optimize the conditions of the grow, but it isn't always so critical as it is for seedlings. Its so important for seedlings because they have new tender roots that need to get established before getting hit with (chemical)nutrients, and there is no back up roots if they get burned up.
> 
> But once the roots have established themselves and get some chemical bath, they get used to it and are able to quickly ramp up the ppm (which is the concentration of the chemicals in the medium or solution). The littlest seedlings are still needing special care but the larger ones are good to go on ramping up the nutes.
> 
> You will see your ppm numbers rise many times, especially in hydro where you are continuously checking. But you will get the hang of knowing how far to let the ppm rise before having to change the water. many times, you will see the ppm rise and think the plants aren't eating but that is just the plants have drank more than they ate which caused the ratio of chems to water to rise.



well i appreciate it, it sucks having a question or concern and no one is trying to help out a bit, not that i ever have that problem with this site, I'm just saying but that makes sense, i just figured he slow rise in ppm could be from the water evaporating out of the res since my res isn't covered, thankfully i havent seen any nute burn (i don't think) but yesterday i got a 200gpd r.o system, not that i technically need it but i just want to have it, plus now i can use that instead of buying bottles of water from the store too and i bought h&g nitrogen boost (technically i got it for free off a $25 reward my hydro shop gives out for every $500 spent) but I'm going to try a res with r.o and see how i make out so i can add my own calmag and i know exactly whats in my water and hopefully that can stop my calcium problem. I'm probably going to start with like 150ppm of calmag plus and 350ppm of maxigro


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## fortphoenix (Feb 4, 2016)

ShOrTbUs said:


> rockwool is common in flood and drain setup's for their ability to retain a lot of moisture for long periods of time. rapid rooters & hydroton drain much too quickly.



yeah but i wash afraid of ph issues and mold and stagnant water and everything so i went with hydroton and rapid rooter, i just flood every 6 hours. its starting to work out, just took like a month to get used too I'm just happy i caught my mistakes quick enough before my mistakes killed the plants


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 4, 2016)

I think that will work for you. They are coming around and you have learned a lot.


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## rickyjack9 (Aug 14, 2016)

rockwool enf? ive done it, seems too wet, coco holds more air, but enf coco also too wet. switched to coco multi-drip and wowee we got a winner. dwc does fine, IF you can keep the water cooled below 70 degrees. I needed gal frozen jugs on 12 hr cycle. but it worked. im finding drip on coco/perlite my winner. lil less yield than dwc but easier for my brain. and lil less maintenance.


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## Hushpuppy (Aug 14, 2016)

I use top drip onto coco coir but mine sit in holes of tote lids so that the top drip can thoroughly soak the pot of coco and allow all the excess to drip off back into the recirculating reservoir. I get great yield with this method.


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