# SM-90 in ebb and flow



## Budders Keeper (May 12, 2011)

Howdy ya'all!

I'm back with more probs. I have had more problems with this 1 grow than 5 years of problems combined. Probably shoulda scrapped the grow weeks ago but I am fighting it for the experience at this point.

Had larvae in buckets and cured it with azamax. This gummed everything up and and gave me root problems(slimy and tinted). 

Can SM-90 be used in bucket system without gumming up airstones, pumps etc??

AND...can SM-90 be used WITH hygrozyme??

Thanks again for all the help


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## Budders Keeper (May 12, 2011)

2 weeks in flower


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## StoneyBud (May 12, 2011)

Budders Keeper said:
			
		

> Howdy ya'all!
> 
> I'm back with more probs. I have had more problems with this 1 grow than 5 years of problems combined. Probably shoulda scrapped the grow weeks ago but I am fighting it for the experience at this point.
> 
> ...


 
The best way to answer you is to tell you what I do. I use Sulfuric Acid in the form of normal battery acid, diluted greatly, as pH down. I believe this sulfuric acid is what keeps all the larva problems you've had from happening in my system. I don't think any animal life could exist in water with sulfuric acid in it like I have. So far, in many decades of hydroponic growing, I've *never* had any problems at all in my reservoirs with living organisms or slime.

I use only GH 3-Part nutes for vegging and the start of flowering. I add only "Bloom Blaster" to the reservoir for flowering.

Several hundred crops and never a problem.

To me, that says I'm doing something right and nothing is *broken*. If nothing is broken, I don't need to fix anything.

If you duplicate my method, I see no reason you wouldn't have the same results.

With a properly built Ebb and Flow, air-stones are pointless, redundant and unnecessary. Just something else to break without serving any purpose.


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## Budders Keeper (May 12, 2011)

Hello Stoney,
 You speak wisdom my friend. I have actually only had GH3 in there for the last 7 days. The larvae problem was a quick fix but the "fix" lead to root problems unfortunately.

I'm assuming my "CAP Ebb-n-Gro" properly built so I shouldn't need an airstone. That makes sense since the water freefalls into controller bucket and then freefalls back into res, every 2 hours, thus breaking surface tension and "airating" solution. I guess I just "felt" better knowing solution was constantly mixing by bubbles.

I don't know if I will get anything worth smoking or not at this point. If not, I won't be fighting problems next time...I'll take a hint and start over.

Thanks for your wisdom through this grow. I will only be using GH3 plus "koolbloom"(till its used up) for the rest of this grow and probably future grows as well.

Just when I thought I had things down I get a grow like this to wake me up. I must've needed a slap in the face...but the wife usually handles that!


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## StoneyBud (May 12, 2011)

Budders Keeper said:
			
		

> Hello Stoney,
> You speak wisdom my friend. I have actually only had GH3 in there for the last 7 days. The larvae problem was a quick fix but the "fix" lead to root problems unfortunately.
> 
> I'm assuming my "CAP Ebb-n-Gro" properly built so I shouldn't need an airstone. That makes sense since the water freefalls into controller bucket and then freefalls back into res, every 2 hours, thus breaking surface tension and "airating" solution. I guess I just "felt" better knowing solution was constantly mixing by bubbles.
> ...


 
I sure hope you get some good smoke outta this crop man. MJ is pretty resilient if it lives and produces even a so-so crop of buds, the buds should have some kick.

Using the sulfuric acid as a pH down is a very, very wise thing to do. You can buy it mixed at about 20 times the cost, or you can pick up a small refill of battery acid (make sure it's sulfuric) and SAFELY mix that $6 refill into about 10 gallons of pH down.

A warning to you and all others; use this stuff safely. One splash and you are blind for the rest of your life. No kiddin.

As far as nutes go, *more* is not *better*. The GH nutes have all you need. I get great crops using it.

I just started using the "Bloom Blaster" one crop ago, and it did increase my harvest weight without affecting the potency either way, so I've used it again this crop, but even sooner at 5 weeks before harvest. If you PM me after June 20th, I'll be able to tell you how well it worked this time.


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## Budders Keeper (May 14, 2011)

I will look into sulfuric acid, always looking to save a few pennies.

I must say, I saw a noticable difference within 3 floods of the sm-90. Plants were looking droopy, almost overwatered. Changed res to tapwater and SM-90 and they perked right up, even healthy looking again.

After 12 hours I added GH3 + very weak liquid koolbloom for a total ppm of 1100. Let's hope they stay the way they look right now.

...And Stoney I hear you on the so-so crop. I've had a couple and I still smoked it 

The ladies may even be pic-worthy soon. I think I even spotted a trichome or two.


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## Growdude (May 14, 2011)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> The best way to answer you is to tell you what I do. I use Sulfuric Acid in the form of normal battery acid, diluted greatly, as pH down. I believe this sulfuric acid is what keeps all the larva problems you've had from happening in my system. I don't think any animal life could exist in water with sulfuric acid in it like I have. So far, in many decades of hydroponic growing, I've *never* had any problems at all in my reservoirs with living organisms or slime.


 
Your doing something right but is there any facts to prove the credit goes to sulfuric acid?
It doesnt seem logical that it would kill any "bugs" any faster than any other thing.
I meen once dilluted to 5.8 ph, for example its just 5.8 ph, not that deadly.


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## StoneyBud (May 14, 2011)

Growdude said:
			
		

> Your doing something right but is there any facts to prove the credit goes to sulfuric acid?
> It doesnt seem logical that it would kill any "bugs" any faster than any other thing.
> I meen once dilluted to 5.8 ph, for example its just 5.8 ph, not that deadly.


I haven't researched it so I don't know if there are any "facts" regarding it's effects. It's just my opinion. That's why I said it as "*I believe* this sulfuric acid is what keeps all the larva problems you've had from happening in my system".

Had I found any data that supported that belief, I would have said "It has been studied or tested and proven to"...etc.





.


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## StoneyBud (May 14, 2011)

Budders Keeper said:
			
		

> I will look into sulfuric acid, always looking to save a few pennies.


 
Concentrated sulfuric acid has a strong affinity for water and will react violent and generate heat when coming into contact with water. Always add acid to the water when diluting sulfuric acid.  A large amount of heat may be released, and could cause burns.

Fill up a half gallon container with water. Then add a small amount of acid to the water. 

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER add water to the acid. It could react with explosive effects and cause real harm to you. You ALWAYS have to add the acid to a large amount of water, outside and away from pets or people, and do it slowly while wearing safety glasses and appropriate gloves.


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## woodydude (May 14, 2011)

I worked in an electro-plating plant for a couple of years in my younger days and worked with sulphuric, hydrochloric, hydrofluric acids among others  as well as a whole range of caustics alkalines and as a result, I dont want anything I ingest to have been anywhere near sulphuric acid.

I have no doubt you get results using it Stoney, I just wouldnt use it myself, I have seen too many things as a result of accidents with the stuff and having a stoner near a bottle is an accident waiting to happen.

As for the problem with slimey roots etc, there is a great thread on the subject http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2177 

Green mojo guys. W


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## StoneyBud (May 14, 2011)

woodydude said:
			
		

> I worked in an electroplating plant for a couple of years in my younger days and worked with sulphuric, hydrochloric, hydrofluoric acids among others as well as a whole range of caustics alkalines and as a result, I don't want anything I ingest to have been anywhere near sulphuric acid.
> 
> I have no doubt you get results using it Stoney, I just wouldn't use it myself, I have seen too many things as a result of accidents with the stuff and having a stoner near a bottle is an accident waiting to happen.


 
I hear ya man. I figure we all drive, most of us have to use power tools and such, so if we can do that without killing ourselves, and are forewarned on it's dangers and precautions, it's no more dangerous than jacking your car up.

I worked with electroplating also. Only tin and LHE cadmium, both in aircraft production, but I know what you mean about the dangers involved with it.

I have the greatest confidence that all these stoners know when it's appropriate to be stoned or not. If legalization and decriminalisation are our goals, we have to show that we're all mature enough to use our form of medicine or entertainment responsibly as mature adults. 

Growing it safely is step one in that process. Not harming ourselves in any way that is connected to the "smoking" experience is the next step.

It's kind of like using Bleach in the washer. You don't get your face down into it and you don't mix it with other household chemicals. We all know that and we obey the rules for it. It's the same with the sulfuric acid.

The hydroponic professionals of the world have said many times and in many places, that sulfuric acid is one of the best forms of pH control there is to use. The plants actually use the sulfur.

There is no risk at all to using it in the growing of weed as far as toxicity of the plant material after growing. It's used in the food growing industry all the time and is accepted for use by the FDA for hydroponic food crops. Nothing in the sulfuric acid is exchanged in smoking the plant material except the mineral "sulfur" which is in almost every food you eat and also in tobacco naturally.


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## Mutt (May 14, 2011)

I know a LOT of hydro growers that utilize sulfuric acid in there rez. Mainly for easy PH down...but it is used a LOT from growers I know around the WWW.
besides it's so dilute it's not that big of a deal. where gloves and safety glasses or face shield. No biggy. Be careful and be sober. We have cats like me running around with pipes and a can of butane wearing oven mits. LOL WE have acid in ponds, rain, you name it LOL
Not sure if how much it's diluted would have much of an impact on slime, but algae and stuff is pretty sensitive.


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## Budders Keeper (May 14, 2011)

SLIME IS GONE! Just about 48 hours and the SM-90 virtually eliminated it. Very impressed with that stuff at this point. Even brightened up the roots a bit. 

Thanks for all the heads up on the acid. I don't think it will be a problem, I use gloves/glasses when mixing nutes...and I never add water to nutes, only nutes to water. I shall be extra careful but seems I'm already used to this system of mixing, somewhat. 

Thanks for the link Woody, heading there now in case there is a next time. Heck, I'll be growing til I'm dead...there will be a next time I'm sure


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## StoneyBud (May 14, 2011)

Budders Keeper said:
			
		

> SLIME IS GONE!


 
Congrats, man! :yay: :banana: :dancing: :clap: :cool2: 


I've never measured the sulfuric acid I add to the gallon of water, but I use an Ice Tea Jug and put about 3-4 ounces of acid in the gallon of plain water.

Then, to lower 45 gallons of nutrient solution about 0.1 pH, I use about 1 ounce of that weakened acid. It doesn't take much. I put about an ounce of the weakened acid into the reservoir, stir it good and let it sit for 30 minutes. Then I use my meter and see where it is.

I also wear safety glasses, long sleeved shirt, long pants, shoes and rubber kitchen gloves when I'm messing with it. The point is to cover your skin and eyes totally. One drop of that acid on skin and the resulting burn will teach you if this didn't. I've never done it, but I've seen others after burning themselves at work with acid. Something I never intend to do, ever.


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## woodydude (May 15, 2011)

Glad the problem is sorted BK, before I used beneficials, I used to add some H2O2 to my res on a daily basis and never saw a sniff of slime. I have had it a couple of times since but it is easily solved.

I didnt know SA was used in food production, thanks for the heads up SB. I used it for years but have always been wary of it after seeing it melt its way through a steel holding tank, lined with some composit that I had seen hold neat acid. SOme muppet made a new tank, put the acid in first, then added water, to say I cacked my pants would be an under statement! Scary stuff. I may give it a try when I run out of PH-, as you said, it is cheaper and I am a tight a$$.
Peace W


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## StoneyBud (May 15, 2011)

woodydude said:
			
		

> Glad the problem is sorted BK, before I used beneficials, I used to add some H2O2 to my res on a daily basis and never saw a sniff of slime. I have had it a couple of times since but it is easily solved.
> 
> I didn't know SA was used in food production, thanks for the heads up SB. I used it for years but have always been wary of it after seeing it melt its way through a steel holding tank, lined with some composite that I had seen hold neat acid. Some muppet made a new tank, put the acid in first, then added water, to say I cacked my pants would be an under statement! Scary stuff. I may give it a try when I run out of PH-, as you said, it is cheaper and I am a tight a$$.
> Peace W


 
"Some Muppet"......hahahahaahaha, crack me up! What a laugh you gave me with that line!

Man, I can only imagine, depending on the amount of acid in the tank, what a cloud of nasty it released. I hope no one was injured and the "Muppet" was reassigned to something more suited to his/her abilities.

Where I worked, we had a HUGE QC (quality control) department that would have been monitoring every move near that tank. The only dangers involved that weren't supervised were the individual handling of solutions. By the time people were allowed to handle them, they were supposed to be trained sufficiently to prevent ignorant crap from happening.

Yeah, in industrial application, where chemicals are added in the process flow via automatic measuring and dispensing, sulfuric acid provides an easy, least expensive way to add both sulfur to the nutrients and also adjust the pH. 

As "GrowDude" said in post number seven of this thread, after dilution, it becomes a very mild acid. While concentrated, it's contained safely and via automation, it's used correctly.


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## Budders Keeper (May 15, 2011)

> I used to add some H2O2 to my res on a daily basis and never saw a sniff of slime.


I've used it with good results also. Since this grow was already..uh..let's say "handicapped", I decided to try a few different things just for the experience. 

The azamax I used for larvae left oily greasy slime covering everything. Some places(around pump and airstone) it had the consistancy of butter. Tried h2o2, 30%, 1oz per gallon. It did not begin to eliminate "this" non-bacteria based slime. The sm-90 (3ml per gal) was like washing my entire system, with in hours I saw changes.

I love h2o2 for clearing up stinky res, and _most_ root problems when no beneficials are involved. I now have a new friend to handle other problems...until I have a negative experience with SM-90 anyhow.

Thanks to all for your inputs, I have learned a few things already in this short thread.

Grandpa always said, "If you don't learn something new every day, the day is a waste."


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