# From Lucas himself. (serious growers with patience only)



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

Im posting this because with everything ive read, Ive found a lot of contradictions due in part to the research done by Lucas himself.

However, after reading this guys posts, i must say, i just may have attained a new level of understanding marijuana.

READ EVERY PAGE. READ EVERY PAGE. READ EVERY PAGE. READ EVERY PAGE.

copy and paste this link, then delete the x's and pull up a chair, i wouldnt be stoned while absorbing on this level.

hxxttp://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=892


----------



## ross (Apr 30, 2009)

what new did you understand?


----------



## thedonofchronic (Apr 30, 2009)

Impressed at his knowledge.


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

for example, watering soil.

I used to water until i saw an adequate amount of runoff.

Well, after reading, ive discovered that watering in soil should only be done enough to wet the rootball, not saturate the entire medium.  Oxygen in the root zone is paramount.
Ive never had an overfert prob, or a lockout issue before, but basically the more frequently i watered with less nutrient solution the faster my plants are growing, and looking much healthier as well.

take it for what its worth, but Lucas is very well informed.

This is just one of the many examples of something i learned from this thread, and its working out better for me.


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

thedonofchronic said:
			
		

> Impressed at his knowledge.



me too, now read his thread and prepare to absorb some pretty anecdotal yet very informative posts that just may change your mind about some things.

Like giving nutes every feeding in soil at lower dosages.

crazy i know, but this guy has too many successful followers for it not to be worth a glance.


----------



## thedonofchronic (Apr 30, 2009)

Ive been reading. most is on hydro setups
great link though, much appreciated.
ill keep reading for all the soil tips. I want
to grasp soil growing fully before trying other ways.


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

thedonofchronic said:
			
		

> Ive been reading. most is on hydro setups
> great link though, much appreciated.
> ill keep reading for all the soil tips. I want
> to grasp soil growing fully before trying other ways.



The stuff about soil is why i read in the first place. Keep reading and he may change your outlook on some things

However, after reading his posts, ive spent quite a large amount of money on hydro gear and am going from soil to a full ebb and flow setup, ive the got the tools, just gotta get my feet wet in hydro, it will be a piece of cake, much easier than soil, and i know this without ever trying. Why? cause the proof is all around me, just had to open my eyes.

After all, It was common knowledge that SOG ebb & flow is the most effective way to grow with the largest yield per light, Lucas just proves it.

And personally, i think people should start in hydro then learn soil, soil is much more complicated imho.

Hydro just costs more to get the right supplies to do the job, overall its much easier compared to soil.


----------



## NorCalHal (Apr 30, 2009)

JBonez said:
			
		

> After all, It was common knowledge that SOG ebb & flow is the most effective way to grow with the largest yield per light, Lucas just proves it.


 True that. The key to that sentence is "largest yeild *per light*" Most folks say per plant. I believe it is all about maximizing your space by dedicating 1 HID per what ever area (not usuing a light track) and then maximizing that light and getting the most out of it. I have tried numerous methods and usuing a "tray" is the way to go.

When I first started out, I did the simple ebb and flo with 4" rockwool cubes and load up the tray and flower em out short. I would get great yeilds. Over time, I developed my own "method", but used the same principles. This allowed me to get my plant numbers down, while still acheiving the desired weight. I still use that method today. Most of you have seen it, just a simple top feed ,drain set up usuing a basic ebb and flo equipment.

There certinly are other factors in maximizing your yeild, even usuing this method like canopy management. I don't think I have read too much from Lucas on that.




			
				JBonez said:
			
		

> And personally, i think people should start in hydro then learn soil, soil is much more complicated imho.


 
I fully agree. Alot of folks have a fear of Hydro, and really, it is fairly easy.And, as JBonez said, I too think it is alot easier. The biggest issue folks have with Hydro, imo, is nuit issues. Too many folks try to add too many things into the mix and get the "balance" all out of whack. So, after a month of feeding, the plants start to burn up or just die.

Lucas came up with a simple yet effective "fool proof" nuitrient formula. In general, it will work for pretty much every strain out there. Folks started usuing it and with great success. I went by his formula for a number of years.
I have modified it a bit for my own needs. I do use a small amount of "green" GH, as I did notice in some strains, like the ones I currently run, perfoming better with a touch of green, escpecially during Veg. During flower, I eliminate the green altoghter at about week 4.

So, great therad JBonez, as Lucas is who I credit for alot of my sucessful grows. Not really so much as for his formula, but his way of thinking about growing. 

Bottom line, the KEY to what Lucas is saying is simple....

Keep it Simple.


----------



## Friend-of-a-friend (Apr 30, 2009)

I would disagree that hydro is easier than soil from personal experience. True if done correctly the yiels are greater than soil, but soil is much more forgiving for the begginer. Plus there are much more equipment/start-up costs involved in doing hydro CORRECTLY. JMO


----------



## NorCalHal (Apr 30, 2009)

Friend-of-a-friend said:
			
		

> I would disagree that hydro is easier than soil from personal experience. True if done correctly the yiels are greater than soil, but soil is much more* forgiving* for the begginer. Plus there are much more equipment/start-up costs involved in doing hydro CORRECTLY. JMO


 
You touched on the soil being more forgiving for begginers. I think that alot of new growers trying Hydro feel that the more "nuits" you use the bigger/better the plant will be.

Here is a quote from Lucas himself


			
				Lucas said:
			
		

> imvho, there is no nutrient that you can use that will increase yield, nor is there an additive you can use that will increase yield.


 
Says it all.

So, imho, it is not that soil is more forgiving, but new hydro growers tend to overdo the nuits.


----------



## NorCalHal (Apr 30, 2009)

I am just down with this thread. 

I see that cost is a big factor in folks going to hydro.

Lets talk room first. You will have to buy the same equipment for Room conditions as a soil grow. Exhaust fans,carbon scrubber, lights, circulatory fans....
As far as Hydro tables, you don't have to buy the ready made plastic trays and res for high $$. You can make it yourself. My first "flood table" was made from plywood with a waterproof finish so the wood didn't rot. I think it cost me around $30 for everything. I was able to make the table to fit my grow area perfect. If you buy a Plastic tray, they only come in 4'x4'. 3'x3' or you can find 2'x4' and some other dimensions. With a self built tray, you can make it whatever fits your area. If you choose to flood and drain, just get the fittings (about $15) and drill out your tray to install.

For a Res, I used a $25 "kiddie" pool.

No way around spending money on a good feed pump. Spend the $$.

Your off and growing.


----------



## Friend-of-a-friend (Apr 30, 2009)

or money on a good PPM meter (very expensive), good PH pen (not too expensive)


----------



## NorCalHal (Apr 30, 2009)

I figured that soil growers also use PH and PPM pens for thier juice mix, maybe they don't? Been along time since I have done dirt.


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

my god norcal, i absolutely love the fact that we are on the same page (quite literally lol)

Yeah, yield isnt my priority, but its nice to get more, and since i have the wattage, environment and money, i might as well make use of it.

Its like having a Lamborghini and not breaking 80mph, ya know what i mean

The only reason i wouldnt suggest hydro for newbs is the high cost of equipage. Not that you cant do a complete diy setup, but for me, since this truly is my new passion, it was worth forking out the dough.

Lucas is so right, all the supplements people are using are being used to correct a problem, its almost a placebo for them.

The REAL secret to a healthy plant is its environment.

Air flow (cant stress enough)
Temp 
Humidity
Lumen output

and lastly nutes, as the plants cant make use of the nutes if the prior conditions are not met.

I cant believe i spent 200 bucks on bloombastic, only to yield close to what i did my last grow with PBP bloom.

Wont be making that mistake again.

Yo norcal, i respect the heck out of your opinions brother, too bad we couldnt collaborate our knowledge, or should i say understanding of growing good pot in person, make for a good convo.

peace


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

Also this is what gets me mad.

With soil, i usually spend about 4 hours on days that feed or water. Reason is, the plants have to be watered seperately, and while waiting for the water to saturate the soil, im grooming, removing dead or dying leaves, inspecting for bugs and really just giving the plant some tlc.

Soil makes a mess. After a harvest i have to find a way to get rid of the massive root ball in the shape of a 5 gallon bucket.

Soil retains nutrients, and they accumulate in the root ball.

Soil also retains water too much for my blood. The roots are happy when you first feed, but as the available oxygen is spent, growth usually slows, and this is why hydro dominates. The plant takes what it wants, when it wants it.

Im no pro, but cmon people, i think that once you get soil down to an art, and i mean art by growing organically to the point that you ONLY have to add water, and not much at that. Then, and only then, would soil be more beneficial imho.

But, the idea of hydro from a logical standpoint simply cannot be beat.


----------



## skallie (Apr 30, 2009)

Ok ill say my bit soil is easier to the beginner firstly ph is buffered so one can do without the cf or ph meters and just follow nute doses on bottle.
So saying this soil mixed with lets say some vermiculite and perlite at a ratio of 3rd soil 3rd vermic 3rd perlite and this in itself give the roots sufficient aeration.
As for the 5 gallon rootball well thats just your chosen method of using large pots obviously for large plants.
So in hydro the plants only take what they need leading to ec drifts constantly therefore leading to either more frequent res changes or what lots of people tend to do just top up and adjust which aint the way.
Who know what elements of what trace minerals from the intitial reservoir filling have been used-this in turn leads to all sorts of lockout over/under fert probs.
You still have pest problems in hydro their not just problematic to soil grows.
What i cannot get my head round is how people manage to under/overwater plants especially grown in soil.
Lastly jbonez do you do ebb and flow if so surely the clay pebbles are nuked out after a grow if so do you bin them or clean them and reuse.
Im not slagging lucas or you jbonez im just offering some insight to both styles.skallie alrite lar


----------



## skallie (Apr 30, 2009)

Originally Posted by Lucas
imvho, there is no nutrient that you can use that will increase yield, nor is there an additive you can use that will increase yield.

take dutch master superbud from about 5 years ago my mate used this as did many others and his buds went from 2gm buds to 3-4 gms buds.
then onto canna boost although daylight robbery price wise it increases yields maybe not v's cost of the boost but it does work.
onto pk 13/14 again from canna try it then try without it adds to yield.

how long ago was this stuff written as we all know things move on growing wise take cervantes cannabis bible book what an absolute pile of crap my friend has proved most of his growing statements wrong regarding what and what cannot be done or achieved with marijuana and i was witness to most.
ps jbonez great thread btw but things move on so you cannot just accept what someone says as you did yourself you tweaked his method for your own style of growing.
skallie


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

i agree totally with the statement that jorge cirvantes book is crap, ive found so many contradictions in his book (he contradicts himself alot, just flip through the pages)

But your statement that nutrients increase yield??? Sorry, a plant will only use what its environment will allow. Im sure your friend saw an increase, but your statement is anecdotal and therefore doesnt really say much for your arguement. 

For example, do you honestly think nutes matter in an environment like this?

64 degrees f
82% RH
6500 lumens per square foot


Nope, sorry, transpiration would be at a stand still, therefor nutes would merely sit in the medium, causing build up, lock out yada yada and so on.

now this is just a hypothetical situation.


What im saying is that nutes really should be the last concern as far as dialing a grow.

lets be honest, ive seen 2+ with GH flora M/B only, sea of green tho, but still, it shows how much hype is put into all these ferts.

Lucas gave you a breakdown of what a plant needs, and what a plant will absorb, you really cant challenge facts that astounding. 

Your buddy most likely grew better than his previous grow, i seem to get better and yield more, but i seriously doubt its my nutes, in fact, im using the same nutes, so your theory is quite misleading.


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

skallie said:
			
		

> Ok ill say my bit soil is easier to the beginner firstly ph is buffered so one can do without the cf or ph meters and just follow nute doses on bottle.
> So saying this soil mixed with lets say some vermiculite and perlite at a ratio of 3rd soil 3rd vermic 3rd perlite and this in itself give the roots sufficient aeration.
> As for the 5 gallon rootball well thats just your chosen method of using large pots obviously for large plants.
> So in hydro the plants only take what they need leading to ec drifts constantly therefore leading to either more frequent res changes or what lots of people tend to do just top up and adjust which aint the way.
> ...



please quit posting in this thread, no offense but you clearly do not know much about growing, advising those that a ph meter in soil is not needed is not only stupid, but a sure fire way to hurt your plants. Even at recommended dosage which is way to hot, ph is usually well below acceptable levels, how the heck did you come up with that??????????????????????????????

Ph/tds drift in a res is a good thing, im not sure why you dont think it is, lol.
The drift allows maximum uptake at various ph's since some minerals arent absorbed unless in a specific ph range.

i could go on with your posts, but it would get tiresome, the things im saying are common knowledge, lucas isnt the only one i agree with.


----------



## Budders Keeper (Apr 30, 2009)

> For example, do you honestly think nutes matter in an environment like this?
> 
> 64 degrees f
> 82% RH
> ...


that's why that happened...awhile back.  thanks JBonez


----------



## NorCalHal (Apr 30, 2009)

First off skallie......THANKS! You, in a matter of your last two posts have renewed my faith in "newer" members being intelligent and arguing a point without flaming. Really man, thanks.

Now, lets debate!










			
				skallie said:
			
		

> So in hydro the plants only take what they need leading to ec drifts constantly therefore leading to either more frequent res changes or what lots of people tend to do just top up and adjust which aint the way.
> Who know what elements of what trace minerals from the intitial reservoir filling have been used-this in turn leads to all sorts of lockout over/under fert probs.


 
The key to that is having a res of sufficent size for the table you are going to flood. I am not a fan of topping off. I am a firm believer that you should just change out your nuits every 7 days,regardless.  And the REAL key is to allways use less then what any container says to use. As you said, I have adjusted the "Lucas" method to my liking, but he is all in all pretty acurate and is 90% fail safe as far as just usuing his formula, and thats it.




			
				skallie said:
			
		

> You still have pest problems in hydro their not just problematic to soil grows.


 
The only thing I can really think of is fungal gnats, but I think you can get them in soil also, not too sure.




			
				skallie said:
			
		

> Lastly jbonez do you do ebb and flow if so surely the clay pebbles are nuked out after a grow if so do you bin them or clean them and reuse.
> Im not slagging lucas or you jbonez im just offering some insight to both styles.skallie alrite lar


 
I myself do not use the pebbles at all. Strickly rockwool. I use shreaded rockwool in 2 gal pots, but most folks use 4"-8" cubes and flood and drain the table.




			
				skallie said:
			
		

> take dutch master superbud from about 5 years ago my mate used this as did many others and his buds went from 2gm buds to 3-4 gms buds.
> then onto canna boost although daylight robbery price wise it increases yields maybe not v's cost of the boost but it does work.
> onto pk 13/14 again from canna try it then try without it adds to yield.


 
I am sure that it did help with the yeilds. BUT, I also believe that the same results could be acheived with the same basic GH 3 part nuits alone and just adjusted to what the strain can handle. I have hit the magic "gram/watt" on 1000w lights usuing just that and saw no need for supplements. That convinced me that basic nuits can and will acheive Big yeilds.
Now, don't get me wrong bro, I can tell you have experience and know how to use your nuits, whatever they may be, correctly. My point is that supplements are the doom of MANY new growers, escpecially in hydro.



			
				skallie said:
			
		

> take cervantes cannabis bible book what an absolute pile of crap


 
Cheers to that!


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

Budders Keeper said:
			
		

> that's why that happened...awhile back.  thanks JBonez



ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT

Humans dont grow well in bad conditions either, nor could we sustain a healthy lifestyle. Marijuana is no exception


----------



## NorCalHal (Apr 30, 2009)

JBonez said:
			
		

> Ph/tds drift in a res is a good thing, im not sure why you dont think it is, lol.
> The drift allows maximum uptake at various ph's since some minerals arent absorbed unless in a specific ph range.


 
GREAT point man!

I can't really contribute to the soil convo too much, as it has litterally been 15 years at least since I messed with soil.


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

Well played norcal, but i will maintain my position that a res can be stable with simple top offs throughout and entire grow. Its math, not speculation. Nutrients are the variable, and therefore can be predictable, while different strains cannot.

The only reason i will not be topping off is do to the fact that i make ro water enough to swap out the res every day if i chose to.

I do want to try it tho.

Lucas calculates that a minimum of a 40 gallon res is needed per 1000w lamp.
He backed this up with math, you cant argue with that, not only that, but most people dont use an adequate res size relative to the plants needs, therefore its no wonder people have res issues, lol, they dont know what they are doing.

Ive been growing for about 7 months, and let me tell you, Knowledge is power in this sport, and the only way to grow properly.

I do not find it to be a coincidence that those with the smallest yields seem to lack the most mental fortitude.


----------



## GrowinGreen (Apr 30, 2009)

*Interesting thread. I just bought the Flora 3 Series which should be here tomorrow  and I am going to follow something similar to the Lucas formula- but I am really excited to try my own thing.

I think everything is pretty much strain dependent myself, and I agree that plants will only obtain as much nutrients as the environment allows when looking at temperature, humidity, and lighting. 

Each plant has its own genetics (just like you and me) which controls how healthy it will be, how tall or short it will be, what disease it will be immune or not immune to, whether it will have big leaves or little leaves, how it will react to humidity, how many budsites it has, how much bud it produces, etc.

Hell my 50 day old AI can still only handle 6 mL FloraNova grow/gallon and she is very healthy! I can't give her anymore- she just won't accept it. My WW was taking 12+ mL at this same time.

So I believe it all lies within the genetics of each plant and our ability to "tweak the registry" to find the optimum settings (for you computer nerds).*


----------



## Budders Keeper (Apr 30, 2009)

JBonez said:
			
		

> ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT ENVIRONMENT
> 
> Humans dont grow well in bad conditions either, nor could we sustain a healthy lifestyle. Marijuana is no exception


Yup, it was a couple years back.  It's under control now:aok: ...
excellent thread, very good reading.


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

btw, its the little things, like sterilizing EVERYTHING you use to grow with. This means everything.

My grow tent and the room its in are my personal laboratory.  You dont have to be as meticulous as me, im super obsessive compulsive, which usually leads to a "over due it" situation for me, but where that gets me down, i make up with diligence and routine.

I dont see how anyone could grow in an environment that wasnt immaculate. 

Ive got a couple friends, one of which has grown much longer than myself.

But he seems to be coming to me for advice, and everytime i have to diag his plants and tell him what to do. Now, dont get me wrong, the guy grows decent bud, but his yield sucks, the bud is decent, but not up to my standards.

I guess people will get exactly what they want, after all, you cant expect more than you give, lol.


----------



## JBonez (Apr 30, 2009)

Budders Keeper said:
			
		

> Yup, it was a couple years back.  It's under control now:aok: ...
> excellent thread, very good reading.



cool man, thats what i want to hear. I love how far ive come, and i love it when i learn from someone do to problems they have had, and the steps they take to remedy it.

This is great, lets all keep learning through good convo, i just hope the insight gets more in depth.

Id like to study how nutrients affect plants and why plants react the way they did. (duh, i know the basics) But lets talk about how nutrients affecting nutrients that affect the plant. Thats a tricky diag!

This is often the biggest problem for growers, and i would love to be able to identify any def before it gets remotely out of hand.


----------



## solarz (May 1, 2009)

A lot of people mention soil grows...and never mention organics.  And i mean real deal organics...non of that hydro organic stuff.  I think that is TRULEY the difference.  Right now, i'm running the same strain in difference methods.  I am running 3 coco buckets using a modified lucas formula (w/o any additives).  I'm running 3 using an organic coco setup (similar to MassP's buckets), and another 3 with a soiless organic mix.  Now i've NEVER touched the ph/ppm meter for my organic stuff, but i do use it to make sure things are straight with the chemical nutes.  

Like i personally said, i don't really think hydro or soil is more difficult than the other, i think it is chemicals are just more difficult than using organics.  I just bubble water, add molasses then pour on the plants (using the organics).  With using the lucas formula, you have to mix nutes, check ph, modify ph, check ph again, then give to the plants.  Like i said, this is just MHO.

solarz


----------



## BBFan (May 1, 2009)

Interesting read guys.  Thank you.

JBonez-
I thought you were a soil guy?  When did you go hydro?


----------



## skallie (May 1, 2009)

Ok i was making the assumption your growing environment was correct obviously this is the most important thing in growing and until the environment is pretty much spot on you will not get optimum results.

As for my theory it is factual his environment has been dialed in to perfection for about 6 years now with little or no change to nutrients used apart from the additives/boosteres named above.

Cervantes book crap ok i may have gone overboard but if i had it to hand i could dismiss many of his statements.

Quit posting sorry but what gives you the right to question what i state just because you happen to disagree with my comments. 

Oh sorry i wasnt aware you had been growing for 7 months.

A ph meter in soil is not necessity when starting out again im making the assumption people just water until the available nutes are all used up in the soil.

Soil will buffer ph if its too high or too low-you clearly do not know much about growing if you beg to differ.

How does your tds meter know the make up of what is in your res when you have topped up... it may well show as the correct tds but the fact it may be 50% too much of one mineral which wasnt used up by the plants prior to the topping up therefore we now move onto the stage of lockout through too much of one or more minerals.


To an extent ph/cf drifts are acceptable but to low to high with either causes lockouts and stalls a plant yes i understand the basics of a plants uptake requirements btw.

Ok ill now leave the thread i dont want to cause any more offence.
skallie


----------



## WeedHopper (May 1, 2009)

We might want to tell the Farmers this new found knowledge, that Fertlizers dont increase yeild on Flowering Plants,,cause they sure spend alot of money on such things for it not to increase yeilds or make bigger fruits and veggies. 
Aint saying what yur saying isnt so,,it just dont seem right to me for Nutes to have no effect on yeild. But,,I am no expert,, and have never done a side by side to find out. Gonna really piss me off to know I can have the same yeilds without Nutes after using them for so long with good results.


----------



## solarz (May 1, 2009)

skallie said:
			
		

> Ok i was making the assumption your growing environment was correct obviously this is the most important thing in growing and until the environment is pretty much spot on you will not get optimum results.
> 
> As for my theory it is factual his environment has been dialed in to perfection for about 6 years now with little or no change to nutrients used apart from the additives/boosteres named above.
> 
> ...



Skallie..you have a misunderstanding of this concept. SOIL itself won't buffer ph...something like dolomite lime IN THE SOIL will buffer ph, therefore, causing you to not need to ph your water.  I think you are on the right track with your thinking...but i'm not sure if you know WHY.  Uf you really want to dig deeper into this, give me a shout, i'd be more than happy to share my knowledge.

solarz


----------



## solarz (May 1, 2009)

CowboyBudsky said:
			
		

> We might want to tell the Farmers this new found knowledge, that Fertlizers dont increase yeild on Flowering Plants,,cause they sure spend alot of money on such things for it not to increase yeilds or make bigger fruits and veggies.
> Aint saying what yur saying isnt so,,it just dont seem right to me for Nutes to have no effect on yeild. But,,I am no expert,, and have never done a side by side to find out. Gonna really piss me off to know I can have the same yeilds without Nutes after using them for so long with good results.


I think that genetics play a BIG role in yield...more than ferts.  I think that ferts maintain a certain health level in the plants, but don't directly affect it.  The way i look at it is with humans.  If you give some guy in the gym a lot of protien, additives, etc...yeah he may get "bigger" but ONLY as big as his genetics allows him to get.  Now you may have another guy in the same gym, doing the same workout, but without using all the additives, etc...and that guy will be WAY biugger than the guy using the additives.  This is possible, b/c his genetic make up allows for this to happen.  The only way that he would ever know that was to try to lift weights, and get bigger WITHOUT the additives.  Now applythe same *concept* to the plants.  I hope this was somewhat understandable.  

I guess what i'm trying to say is that the additives can really only do so much...the rest is left up to genetics and regimine.

solarz


----------



## Tater (May 1, 2009)

To say that additives don't help or increase the yields of your grow is a pretty broad overstatement.  True if the environment isn't dialed in the plants won't grow well but if you have a dialed in environment and all the wrong nutrients it won't do jack either.  Lucas is not the be all end all of marijuana growing and many people do not follow his methods and obatin spectacular results (myself included).  He does lay down a lot of good advice, but as far as what he has to say being hard and true fact, well nothing could be farther from the truth.  Its simply one mans opinion, even though it happens to be a very well researched one.

Keeping it simple is great advice and yes good yields can be obtained with the simplest of ferts, hell I know a guy who grows outside with miracle grow and hits his 10LB mark every year.  But GREAT yields, require dialed in environment AND dialed in nutrients.  

I do agree with NorCalHal on many new growers over doing their nutrients and I do agree that most new to hydro should start simple and work their way into the multitude of additives out there.  But to say they don't work or increase yield is ludicrous, there are plenty of grow journals out there that would beg to differ.


----------



## solarz (May 1, 2009)

I understand what you are saying, and alli'm trying to get across is that the ferts, additives alone...you can't hang your hat on that.  There is so much more that is required to hit the mark.  

But tater...let me ask you this. Have you ever ran your same plants without using any of the additives?  If you have, and lets just say that the results were exactly the same, from what you could tell.  Would you still drop out the cash to keep buying those additives? 

My thing, is that a lot of people put stuff into their nute mixes and have no earthly idea why they are doing it, or exactly what result to get from it.  They just throw it in there b/c someone else said so...or someone else does it, and not because that's what their plants are asking for.  I think newbs miss this step, they dont read the plants and give them what they ask for, they just give them what they *think* the plant needs.

solarz


----------



## WeedHopper (May 1, 2009)

I agree with Tater,,and I do understand that the Nutes mean nothing, if the PH, Lights,heat,moisture,fesh air and everything else is not right. But,,I thought most already knew this as a basic understanding before adding nutes. To say that Nutes have nothing to do with yeild just seems to be pushing the envolope a bit to me. I do agree that PPL have a tendancy to use more then needed and over Fert thinking it is answer to everything. But to say it doesnt increase yeild,,I dont know.


----------



## NorCalHal (May 1, 2009)

Great debate, and all have Valid points.

Skallie, noone is clowning you bro, in fact the opposite. Don't just split man.

Tater makes some great points. But, speaking strickly for GH 3 part, nothing more is needed to acheive maximum results hydroponically.
imho, a simple adjustment in either your Micro, or Bloom nuits can produce the same results as adding an additive to boost P for instance. This has been my experience and I get consistent results.

Now again, this is speaking only for GH 3 part, in which this thread was started.

The PH drift, as mentioned ,is actually critical for optimum uptake in a hydro system. Another misconception by hydro growers. Alot of new growers tend to check PH daily and adjust daily back to the 5.6 range.
Myself, I adjust to around 5.6, and let her drift. She usually ends up at about 6.2 in a 7 day period, just in time for a water change.
P, fr example isn't maximised for uptake until around 5.9 -6.0


Lets get back to Lucas. Sure, he is not the end all be all of MJ growing. But what he did alone is create a SIMPLE yet effective formula that basicaly ensures no nutriunt defiencies for a Basic Hydro grow. IMO, if you use his forumla to the tee, then any issues with your Garden will be room condition related. Once a person fixes the room conditions, they can begin to concentrate on "tweaking" the lucas formula, knowing that any changes to plant health will be directly related to Nuits.

All in all, the Lucas formula is a GREAT starting point for beginner Hydro growers.


----------



## NorCalHal (May 1, 2009)

CowboyBudsky said:
			
		

> To say that Nutes have nothing to do with yeild just seems to be pushing the envolope a bit to me.


 
I don't think anyone is saying "don't use nuits", I think it is more about not usuing additives to a nuit regimine. But hey man, I just woke up and havn't burned anything yet!


----------



## WeedHopper (May 1, 2009)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone is saying "don't use nuits", I think it is more about not usuing additives to a nuit regimine. But hey man, I just woke up and havn't burned anything yet!


 
Might be right Bro,,I was high. Besides I like Debates. I learn alot from these discussions,,and sometimes I just like watching PPL's reactions to things.


----------



## WeedHopper (May 1, 2009)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> I don't think anyone is saying "don't use nuits", I think it is more about not usuing additives to a nuit regimine. But hey man, I just woke up and havn't burned anything yet!


 
Might be right Bro,,I was high. Besides I like Debates. I learn alot from these discussions,,and sometimes I just like watching PPL's reactions to things. 
OH,,and I thought Lucas was that stuff in little packages with lemon and salt.


----------



## ross (May 1, 2009)

JB, what size indoor greenhouse do you use with your 600W?


----------



## JBonez (May 1, 2009)

ross said:
			
		

> JB, what size indoor greenhouse do you use with your 600W?



click my sig.

1000w hps hortilux/lumatek
sunhut silver grow tent 54"x54"x84"

Light is cooled by a 500 cfm vortex fan
Passive intake, 150 cfm fan, Carbon filter, exhaust is pushed out of the tent via ventilation.
Tower fan takes up less space, and the flow of air bathes the plant with fresh circulated air constantly, negating the need for co2.

Average temp is 74-80 degrees
Average RH is 45-65


----------



## ozzydiodude (May 1, 2009)

Nice link Thanks for info.eace:


----------



## JBonez (May 1, 2009)

Jbonez -Bold
Skallie- standard text

Ok i was making the assumption your growing environment was correct obviously this is the most important thing in growing and until the environment is pretty much spot on you will not get optimum results.

*We agree on something! lets see what else we share as common knowledge, continue....
*
As for my theory it is factual his environment has been dialed in to perfection for about 6 years now with little or no change to nutrients used apart from the additives/boosteres named above.

*Has he been growing the same strain for six years? this would negate your point if not.*

Cervantes book crap ok i may have gone overboard but if i had it to hand i could dismiss many of his statements.  

*Again, i fully agree, the man can grow, and he uses alot of "fluff" imo, i just found his book to be informative, yet rather contradictive. Ive read more than you would believe, not just referencing one book and i can provide you with my source material if you like.
*
Quit posting sorry but what gives you the right to question what i state just because you happen to disagree with my comments. 

*This was a little rash of me, i assumed you were new as you left out certain information, this in effect made its seem you lacked experience, which is clearly not the case.*

Oh sorry i wasnt aware you had been growing for 7 months.

*Yeppers, well, maybe 8 by now, lol. But time is of no relavance, you should know this. There are growers on here that have been growing longer than me and cant quite seems to get it imo.*

A ph meter in soil is not necessity when starting out again im making the assumption people just water until the available nutes are all used up in the soil. 

*Thanks for clarifying that but YOUR statement contradicts itself.

Your statement Verbatim
"Ok ill say my bit soil is easier to the beginner firstly ph is buffered so one can do without the cf or ph meters and just follow nute doses on bottle."

And my rebuttle
Follow nute doses on the bottle? Does that work in fantasy island? 
*
Soil will buffer ph if its too high or too low-you clearly do not know much about growing if you beg to differ.

*I dont beg to differ, but the nutrient accumulation in my plants rootball, causing the ph to be significantly lower would.
*
*Sure, soil, depending on brand, could be a buffer, if the water ph was at most 6.2,  and the soil was a perfect 7.0 and no nutes. The only result of these two ph differences that could happen are still in the range for maximum uptake, you cant argue this.
*
How does your tds meter know the make up of what is in your res when you have topped up... it may well show as the correct tds but the fact it may be 50% too much of one mineral which wasnt used up by the plants prior to the topping up therefore we now move onto the stage of lockout through too much of one or more minerals. 
*
You make an extremely valid point, and let me explain why it can and apparently does work.

The reason i am so for the lucas formula is this.
The formula simply does one thing. It meets the base requirements and nutrients in proper proportions to sustain growth without overdoing it.
Assuming the res needs to be "topped off" i would ascertain that the plant is obviously using its nutrients as needed. However, with the content of this formula, as it was designed to do, the plants theoretically should proportionately absorb as well.

The addback calculator is a easy way to predict where the plants are at, and lucas himself states that this will most likely raise tds levels above recommended levels, this is where individuality comes into play and we/I will have to adjust to that. But he proves my point nonetheless.  *


To an extent ph/cf drifts are acceptable but to low to high with either causes lockouts and stalls a plant yes i understand the basics of a plants uptake requirements btw. 

*Define "extent", i would say that as long as the plants ec/ph flux is complementing uptake range that this could not possibly be a problem.*


Ok ill now leave the thread i dont want to cause any more offence.
skallie. 
*
NOOO, your not off the hook that easy, this is a debate, and i clearly explained my reasoning for asking you not to post, its apparent that you NEED to be in this thread, think of those benefitting from our conversation!*


----------



## skallie (May 1, 2009)

ill reply tomorrow ive just smoked some cheese and i feel the onset of a whitey.
lol
most of your points btw are valid ill try my best to differ tomorrow
roflmao
skallie


----------



## ross (May 1, 2009)

what do you use for veg?


----------



## JBonez (May 1, 2009)

thats what im talking about, proper disagreement and agreement, true debate at its finest with no hard feelings in the name of learning, lets keep this going, 

Norcal, keep this thread alive brotha!


----------



## ozzydiodude (May 1, 2009)

Hey JBonez Can you lead me to Lucas's take on bonsai growing? I have been researching Bonsai and not finding much info. I want to get the best references for Bonsai growing marijuana. 
What is you thoughts on bonsai?
eace:


----------



## JBonez (May 1, 2009)

ross said:
			
		

> what do you use for veg?



400w metal halide lumatek/no name mh, not important in veg, lumens wise

this is a pic of my veg tent, much smaller than my flowering tent as i only need to clone from it and keep rotational mothers.

notice how ive been lst'ing the heck out of em, really put out some numbers come time to take cuttings.

I usually take way more than i need, then, pick the ones that look most i identical in growth pattern, (stagard branches, size, stem thickness, leaf size) that way i will achieve the most even canopy, pumping out larger yields per 1000w light.


----------



## thedonofchronic (May 2, 2009)

skallie said:
			
		

> ill reply tomorrow ive just smoked some cheese and i feel the onset of a whitey


 
:rofl: hahah just came in from smoking some reeeal good cheese, first thread i went to read that awesome.
cheese has actually become my faveourite smoke


----------



## JBonez (May 2, 2009)

thedonofchronic said:
			
		

> :rofl: hahah just came in from smoking some reeeal good cheese, first thread i went to read that awesome.
> cheese has actually become my faveourite smoke



sigh, i wouldnt know, but if i wanted to by a good cheese strain from a seedbank, who is the famous breeder that has the closest strain or most stable productive version? 

Id love to grow cheese as people here dont come across that but on a rare occasion.


----------



## GrowinGreen (May 2, 2009)

Try one of these breeders Big Buddha, Barney's Farm, Green House


----------



## GrowinGreen (May 2, 2009)

Oh and if anyone is interested in buying the *3 part Flora series*- quart size for *$37* shipped send me a pm and I will give you the eBay store. Or you can try and find it yourself ...I couldn't believe they were selling the whole set for so cheap, but I got mine yesterday- so it's legit.

I'd rather people on this forum get it than anyone else-


----------



## skallie (May 2, 2009)

JBonez said:
			
		

> Jbonez -Bold
> Skallie- standard text
> 
> Ok i was making the assumption your growing environment was correct obviously this is the most important thing in growing and until the environment is pretty much spot on you will not get optimum results.
> ...


 
jesus let me go jbonez

lol

skallie


----------



## skallie (May 2, 2009)

JBonez said:
			
		

> Jbonez -Bold
> Skallie- standard text
> 
> Ok i was making the assumption your growing environment was correct obviously this is the most important thing in growing and until the environment is pretty much spot on you will not get optimum results.
> ...


 
jesus let me go jbonez

lol

skallie


----------



## skallie (May 2, 2009)

btw it took me over 2 years to get my grubby little hands on uk cheese after many a failed attempts to procur it

lol

skallie


----------



## JBonez (May 2, 2009)

the only thing youve stated skallie in your reply that i want to hit on is "rootball ph"

i dont measure my runoff, so i dont know for sure that my rootball is "hot" or not.

Ive just suffered some deficiencies that ive identified as lockout do to ph being too low, 

and yeah, i flushed, problem solved, but it was a mag def, and i give them plenty mag so i know that something was inhibiting uptake.

Everything else you stated is too logical and i am actually unable to continue debating as your points speak for themselves and your success shows it, who am i to critique?

thanks, and btw, ive only been looking for a uk cheese for two days, lmao!


----------



## skallie (May 2, 2009)

empty your pm box jbonez
skallie


----------



## skallie (May 2, 2009)

Btw your taking the piss jbonez you are more than capable of arguing my points im not that stoopid fella
rotflmao
skallie


----------



## NorCalHal (May 3, 2009)

Great Debate on both Jbonez and Skallies part.


----------



## JBonez (May 3, 2009)

yo skallie, youve proven your point and made some valid points, i really cant go any further until i have some better experience especially with hydro.

If i listen to lucas, then i would only top off my res.

If i listen to reason, and a proven method, then i would just swap my res every week, which i have absolutely no prob doing, as my RO unit is pretty BA, it can make a 150gpd as it has two membranes and a booster with auto shutoff.

The point you make about not knowing which trace elements are actually contained in the res got me thinking.


----------



## WeedHopper (May 3, 2009)

> If i listen to lucas, then i would only top off my res


 


> If i listen to reason, and a proven method, then i would just swap my res every week


 
Pretty much sums it up. Very good JBonze.


----------



## JBonez (May 3, 2009)

i think what im gonna do is try adding back on a smaller scale, that way if it doesnt go well, no harm no foul.

Im still VERY "for" the idea tho, i mean, someone has success, gave us the variables which, if you think about it, plant type is the only really "variable"

if you follow directions, use pure RO water and dont overdue anything.

from what i understand, the lucas formula is good due to the fact that nutrients are supposed to be in such perfect balance as far as quantity for even sensitive plants. Sure you will have to tweak, but it really is fascinating to me.


----------



## GrowinGreen (May 4, 2009)

I just got my micro, bloom, and grow in the mail... and from what I understand is the Lucas formula is----well----very basic. I have plants growing at 3 different stages. Mature.. kinda mature... and not very mature. Sounds like my friends :laugh:

I love this stuff. My plants already look healthier. I have 3 milk jugs filled with different concentrations of nutrients.

I also keep a log book now- because I can't remember what I feed them... I won't go back, you should go forward


----------



## Sir_Tokie (May 4, 2009)

I have read the" ask Lucas" threads before but it was at a diffrent web site, don't remember the name of it but there is a great deal of info there. He seems to be geared more towards hydro growing. But does have some good info for soil growing also. Very smart man from what I have read, he has done his homework thats for sure. But if I remember right he did'nt create the 0-8-16 Lucas formula his friend (ph) did. But either way it was created to be just as GG said to keep it simple...take care..


----------



## skallie (May 4, 2009)

Well i thought lucas was the star wars bloke.
Ok ill come clean ive never even read the lucas formula i know many use his method so if it works for them go for it jbonez.
ro unit = reverse osmosis gbd this is another language.
in u.k. we get water from tap leave for 24 hours for clorine/flouride etc to dissipate then make the mix.
im sure the nutrients are in perfect balance initially but lets imagine you have ten identical plants all same size all healthy.

so day one lets drink the nutes plants.

day two cf/ph starting to drift.

day three some plants start to show deficency and some start to show too much nutes some going bright green (def) some going dark green (excessive).

what im saying is although all the plants are healthy equal size etc some will drink more of one or two minerals and some will drink more of one or two of the other minerals so balancing out the cf/ph to an extent yet its not really as it appears.


how would you remedy this situation a flush contains nothing so would effectively make matters worse as the ones with excessive nute uptake aka the dark green plants would benefit yet the ones with bright green leaves (def) are getting worse not receiving the nitrogen they need.

just my ideas madness in my method or is it the other way around.

lol

skallie.


----------



## winstonwolf (May 4, 2009)

JBonez said:
			
		

> And personally, i think people should start in hydro then learn soil, soil is much more complicated imho.
> 
> Hydro just costs more to get the right supplies to do the job, overall its much easier compared to soil.



I'm still a relative newbie (I'm on my third grow) so you can take this for what it's worth, but I find soil to be much easier than hydro. I wouldn't rule out altogether the possibility of doing hydro again but I'm pleased with the results I'm getting from soil without the whole hassle of sloshing around large amounts of water.


----------



## NorCalHal (May 4, 2009)

skallie said:
			
		

> im sure the nutrients are in perfect balance initially but lets imagine you have ten identical plants all same size all healthy.
> 
> so day one lets drink the nutes plants.
> 
> ...


 



If you run the same strain on all 10 plants, chances are, you are not going to have any individual Nuit issues with individual plants. This has been my experience with many hydro grows. The only time you really see some plants doing well, and others not so well, is when you have different strains feeding off the same res.
This is the KEY reason that I only run one flavor at a time, per  table/res.

So that brings us to topping off. I would have to say that in general, I do not top off. BUT, I also use larger resovoirs and usually, by the 7th day, I just change the whole res.
Sometimes, if they drink a little faster then "normal" (nothing is usually normal in a hydro grow!), I will top off the res with plain water. But I do PH the res afterwards. I will go back and change the whole res out though on schedule (day 7, 9 at the latrest if I topped off). 
Is it harmful? Not in my book. But really, it is only running the "topped" off nuit mix for a max of 3-4 days.
Then, when I make my new nuit mix, I judge by the plants health what the nuit mix should be and how strong/weak.

As far as topping off every day to acheive the original level of the res is not needed and does more harm then good IMO. Topping off to get you to "day 7-9" should be just fine. Does that make sense?

Lucas came up with a pretty fail safe nuitriunt mix that works WELL for almost all MJ strains and is a GREAT guide for beggineers IF they follow it to a tee. The key factor in Lucas's mix, imho, is that he runs lower ppm's, which I think we can all agree is a far better and safer bet in maintaining gerneral health of the plant thoughout it's 3-4 month indoor life span.
You have to realize, that an Indoor plant usually goes no longer then 4 months from being rooted to being chopped down.

That brings me to another point. In soil, I believe it takes longer to VEG then hydro, so, you will have to be EXTRA carful about not burning up your plants, because they have to stay alive and healthy a little longer then hydro plants, so the nuit mix should even be lower ppm then hydro.
Just taking an educated guess here, but it makes sense to me.


----------



## skallie (May 4, 2009)

i agree with everything you say nch except the nute issues with same strains.

i have many experiences in hydro with same strains aeroponics/nft/dripper systems/ and have had some plants exibit overdoseing and some deficencies so although in an ideal situation your statement does work but in reality it also doesnt work bit of this and that.

saying that your method for topping up res changes does make more sense than just topping up the res.

skallie


----------

