# 9 grams per/watt



## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

Got your attention now? hehe

I figured it would.

I'm starting a two part, experimental grow that may produce near that amount of weed per/watt.

I'm buying some LED panels that supposedly produce the same amount of lumens as a 200 watt HPS. I'll put four of them in my 3.5 x 5.5 sq ft area and use my same hydro techniques with the exception of flipping them into flower as rooted, mature clones as soon as they're placed into the room.

The grow will be maintained as a center-cola only grow (I hate the term "lolipop"). I'll have 64 plants, 8 per/tub.

If this works as I hope, I'll get 32 ounces of cured bud from this grow.

If it grows within the 3 feet, and I'm sure I can make that happen, the next crop will be a "double-decker" grow with two levels using the same amount of lights and hydro in the same area.

Heat won't be a problem with the LED's. With eight of these panels, the heat produced is less than what a single 100 watt incandescent bulb produces.

This is a money risk. The initial set of panels will cost me $500.

The crop I have going now will harvest in Mid-October. I'll start the LED grow within a couple weeks after that.

If I can squeeze 4 pounds from 40 sq ft of growing area, using 200 watts of LED lights and hydro on two levels, than that would be 9 grams/watt.

Whatcha think, Group?


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## ozzydiodude (Aug 24, 2009)

I'll be watching, don't you just love to play with new things, and prove it can be done


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> I'll be watching, don't you just love to play with new things, and prove it can be done


Yeah, I sure do. With my experience, using the LED's and two levels, I think I can do this. At least get near it.

1. The LED's use only 200 watts of electric to produce the same light as 1,600 watts of conventional HPS. (They say)

2. Only a slight amount of heat will be produced.

3. By growing only center colas on a Bubba Kush grow, and doing 128 of them at once, I think I'm going to max out the plant-bud/area ratio.

4. Using hydro and the GH nutes at maximum, as well as using mature clones with no vegetative period will minimize the harvest time.

Simply put, I'll have heat minimized, wattage maximized and growing variables maximized.

If the LED's are ever going to produce, they will do so in this grow.

Like I said, the first crop is a $500 risk. The second will be an additional $500 risk.

Doing a double-decker grow has been a fantasy of mine for some time.


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## Growdude (Aug 24, 2009)

If anyone can its you Stoney,

So your looking to get 2 pounds in ~20 sq/ft from LED's, should be interesting.


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## umbra (Aug 24, 2009)

Stoney, you are pretty intelligent guy. Do you believe what the led manufacture says in regards to lumen output? Why would you? If you are doing an experiment, then do it the correct way. A calibrated lumen meter. When I say calibrated, I don't just mean raw lumens, but wave length compensated output. Otherwise, it wont mean very much, and any claims of 9 grams per watt, just another urban myth. I'm watching what you do as well as how you do it. Now on with the show.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

umbra said:
			
		

> Stoney, you are pretty intelligent guy. Do you believe what the led manufacture says in regards to lumen output? Why would you? If you are doing an experiment, then do it the correct way. A calibrated lumen meter. When I say calibrated, I don't just mean raw lumens, but wave length compensated output. Otherwise, it wont mean very much, and any claims of 9 grams per watt, just another urban myth. I'm watching what you do as well as how you do it. Now on with the show.


Frankly, I couldn't care less what the guy says these lights put out. The final product will tell the real story.

I'm going to use four, 25 watt panels on the first grow, as I described.

That's 100 watts of power, no matter how you rate the lumens.

I'll see what this 100 watts produces and go from there.

I'm sceptical as well. I'm willing to risk the $500. If, it turns out that twice that much is needed, it's still a good deal at 200 watts instead of 800.

The lights in the panels I'm buying are the HO LED's with the proper red/blue ratio for plant growth.

The heat factor is also important. *Even* if I have to use twice the LED's as advertised, I would have a win-win situation. I could stop using the two 400 watt HPS and the 5K BTU a/c unit required to cool my grow room.

The combined savings from less wattage used and less heat and required a/c usage would more than pay the difference in light cost.

The LED's are rated at 5K hours with no loss of lumen output for their entire life.

I'm going to make a Grow Journal from that grow that will be comparable to my upcoming Grow Journal from this grow in the same area, using the two 400's.

It will be a very, very interesting grow.

I wish I could start it now, but the grow that's going now is what will be the control grow to which the October grow will be compared.

I imagine there will be a lot of eyes on this one. I've wanted to watch someone else do this for a long time, but no one has, at the scale I need to prove.

Wish me luck!

P.S. Whatcho mean "*pretty* intelligent guy"? You don't know if I'm pretty or not! hehe


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## umbra (Aug 24, 2009)

if this goes any way near as you have predicted, it may change the way we all grow. i wish you a great deal of success.


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## mistisrising (Aug 24, 2009)

This is a pretty interesting idea, and could cure space and energy concerns for larger grows and co-op's.


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## Growdude (Aug 24, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> I'm going to use four, 25 watt panels on the first grow, as I described.
> 
> That's 100 watts of power, no matter how you rate the lumens.
> 
> I'll see what this 100 watts produces and go from there.



So you are going to try for 32 Oz from 100 watts of LED?


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## JustAnotherAntMarching (Aug 24, 2009)

Stoney      What kinda panels did you buy??  $500 is enough to buy 3 UFOs but 4 25 watt panels....???

not to burst your bubble but you have no chance at 9 grams/watt.... not with those panels at least...   Look at the industrial panels on ebay that are $500 and they use 3 watt LEDs and then you may have a chance...   Im not sayin you cant grow serious green with the LEDs just 9gr/watt is insane...


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## JustAnotherAntMarching (Aug 24, 2009)

BTW     GOOD LUCK!!!   please prove me wrong bc im one of the few LED growers out there....


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## greenfriend (Aug 24, 2009)

Well im as big of a LED skeptic as can be....but if you finish with even 2+ grams/watt of quality bud, i'll hop on the bandwagon too. good luck


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

Growdude said:
			
		

> So you are going to try for 32 Oz from 100 watts of LED?


Yes, I'm shooting for two pounds by using all the methods in one grow. I currently get 21 ounces from that same area, but using a standard grow with topping and LST. I haven't tried the center cola grow yet. By using it, I think I'll dramatically increase the grams per/sq ft. when combined with the other techniques.


1. Center cola only. 64 plants in 20 sq ft on the first, one layer grow.

2. The four LED panels will be spread over the entire area.

3. Ebb and Flow Hydro using the tub method with a one on, two off cycle.

4. GH nutes at an increased rate. I've found on the ongoing crop that Bubba Kush is tolerant of higher levels of nutrients.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> Stoney What kinda panels did you buy?? $500 is enough to buy 3 UFOs but 4 25 watt panels....???
> 
> not to burst your bubble but you have no chance at 9 grams/watt.... not with those panels at least... Look at the industrial panels on ebay that are $500 and they use 3 watt LEDs and then you may have a chance... Im not sayin you cant grow serious green with the LEDs just 9gr/watt is insane...


 
I'd rather keep my choice of panels to myself at this point.

I'll share that information later.

Actually, you "think" I have no chance at 9 grams/watt. I hope to burst your *bubble*, and you have no idea what panels I'm using, so how can you rate them?

Lastly, I am insane. That means it should work!


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> BTW GOOD LUCK!!! please prove me wrong bc im one of the few LED growers out there....


 
Thanks to all who have wished me good luck! About October 20th or so, I'll be starting 64 mature clones directly into flower.

By about the second week of December, we'll see what these lights have done.


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## Smot_poker (Aug 24, 2009)

umbra said:
			
		

> if this goes any way near as you have predicted, it may change the way we all grow. i wish you a great deal of success.


HAH! if you think i have 500 bucks to throw away on lights, you are crazy! i'm working my arse off just to get a 400 watt cheapo HPS for about 120 bucks plush S&H.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

mistisrising said:
			
		

> This is a pretty interesting idea, and could cure space and energy concerns for larger grows and co-op's.





			
				umbra said:
			
		

> if this goes any way near as you have predicted, it may change the way we all grow. i wish you a great deal of success.


 
That's exactly why I'm doing this. My energy consumption has reached critical mass. My wallet is crying and sobbing every month when I get my electric bill.

This will work. It's a matter of lights, placement, growing technique and process.

I'll maximize each.

How well it works per/watt of LED is the only question left in my mind.

I'll throw all the data into a spreadsheet and track it every way it can be. Total overall costs with light life taken into consideration.

Dollar for Dollar, I'll see what happens.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

Smot_poker said:
			
		

> HAH! if you think i have 500 bucks to throw away on lights, you are crazy! I'm working my arse off just to get a 400 watt cheapo HPS for about 120 bucks plush S&H.


I understand that we all don't have the funds to do this as a test.

I've saved my money for this.

I'm 99% sure I'll save money and reduce my heat dramatically. That will eliminate the air conditioner I use in the grow room and two 400 watt HPS.

How much money I save will be determined by the harvest and cured weight. The potency also.

By the end of January 2010, I'll know the results of the entire experiment.


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## NorCalHal (Aug 24, 2009)

Well...you got my attention!

First, let me say if anyone else posted this, it would be a flame fest! lol

But we all know your skillz and if there ever was a good shot at hitting the mark, you will have it.

IF, you hit even close.....you will have me rethinking alot of things....

I do see many positives with how you are going to run that particular grow. I love the single cola idea and plant numbers. you are only asking for 14g per plant, which is quite acheivable. I did the same method for a long time, flowering "rooted clones" and it is an eaiser way to acheive weight then growing less plants bigger.
Your hydro method is DIALED, so the ONLY factor, imo, is light.

$500 for the set up isn't that bad,imo either. It is comparable to costs for a 1000watter and a 600, plus the fact you don't need extra fans to cool the lights.

I can tell you are excited to start, and I can't wait to see the set up!
Best of Luck and keep us posted.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> Well...you got my attention!
> 
> First, let me say if anyone else posted this, it would be a flame fest! lol
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Hal, the lights are also my prime consideration. I held off on buying any because they didn't meet my needs and the size or light spread wasn't what I was looking for. These 25 watt panels are *exactly* what I've been waiting for.

I'll take clones off the Pre98/Bubba Kush host plants I have going. The clones of course will be mature already, so once in the hydro and it's 12/12 immediately. The lights will be practically sitting on the tops of the colas, so I think I'll get decent results from the lights. As good as they can produce, anyway.

This will cure many things for me. The heat I have now makes me use an air conditioner and two fans. I have to plumb the exhaust outside the house, or the house air conditioning goes nuts and costs me more. The resulting problem of dealing with the odor prior to it leaving the house is more cost. That one won't change much. They'll still smell with the LEDs, but I can contain it in the grow room with an air cleaning system.

The costs of replacement bulbs and bulbs losing lumens over their age span.

The initial costs of the HPS, Flos and MH lights can be cut down with the life span of the LED's and the costs will maybe be less than the HID's in the long run. My spreadsheet will have to tell me that later.

The problems with growing that face med growers throughout the world may be relieved a bit if this method works. The double-decking of crops is also a HUGE factor in space utilization and maximization of grow area funds.

I've wanted to do this in a very bad way for quite some time.

Someone finally put out a light that has the needed power and dimensions for my trial.

Dude! It also makes that "other" thing we talked about come a step closer to reality. Oh Yeah... :hubba:


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## Smot_poker (Aug 24, 2009)

here are some fatty LED's you might want to look into if you are wanting to expand if all goes well with your grow. It's a 150 watt grow lamp with 3 watt LED's and if it performs half as good as it looks, i'd say you'd get a pretty hefty crop. 

hXXp://cgi.ebay.com/Industrial-Strength-LED-grow-light-GUARANTEE_W0QQitemZ180398375007QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a0094c05f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

Smot_poker said:
			
		

> here are some fatty LED's you might want to look into if you are wanting to expand if all goes well with your grow. It's a 150 watt grow lamp with 3 watt LED's and if it performs half as good as it looks, i'd say you'd get a pretty hefty crop.
> 
> hXXp://cgi.ebay.com/Industrial-Strength-LED-grow-light-GUARANTEE_W0QQitemZ180398375007QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2a0094c05f&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


Thanks man. I'll bookmark that page.


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## ArtVandolay (Aug 24, 2009)

This would sure solve a southern Florida garage grower's summer heat problem!  Not that I know anyone like that .


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## umbra (Aug 24, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Thanks Hal, the lights are also my prime consideration. I held off on buying any because they didn't meet my needs and the size or light spread wasn't what I was looking for. These 25 watt panels are *exactly* what I've been waiting for.
> 
> I'll take clones off the Pre98/Bubba Kush host plants I have going. The clones of course will be mature already, so once in the hydro and it's 12/12 immediately. The lights will be practically sitting on the tops of the colas, so I think I'll get decent results from the lights. As good as they can produce, anyway.
> 
> ...



When AlienBait did his grows, he noted that the smell while veggin and flowering was almost non existant with leds. This could well be that terpen production is wavelength driven. Perhaps you can note some of these type observations.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

ArtVandolay said:
			
		

> This would sure solve a southern Florida garage grower's summer heat problem! Not that I know anyone like that .


 
I can't imagine how hot your garage gets. Man, I have a "Florida Room" that gets like an oven.



			
				umbra said:
			
		

> When AlienBait did his grows, he noted that the smell while veggin and flowering was almost non existant with leds. This could well be that terpen production is wavelength driven. Perhaps you can note some of these type observations.


 
I sure will umbra. That's an interesting observation. I'll make a note of it and see what happens on the upcoming grow.

I do know that the Bubba Kush odor is intense! Man does it smell good, and I'm only into day 17 of flowering.


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## JustAnotherAntMarching (Aug 24, 2009)

Why cant you tell us what kind of panels your using?????????       I dont understand???   here what i do know i have 10 of the 12 watt panels and they are junk sidelights...  i have 2 ufos working wonderfully and they have Name Brand LEDs... Also had 2 55watt panels from a major LED producer and they were total junk... So bad i sent them back....

So whats the big secret about your "SUPER" panels?


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## ArtVandolay (Aug 24, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> I can't imagine how hot your garage gets. Man, I have a "Florida Room" that gets like an oven.
> 
> ...



My flower room has hit 100 every night for 3 weeks now.  I knew it was going to be tough sledding but I forgot how hot August is down here.  My satoris look just awful.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

ArtVandolay said:
			
		

> My flower room has hit 100 every night for 3 weeks now. I knew it was going to be tough sledding but I forgot how hot August is down here. My satoris look just awful.


I hear you man. I use my Florida Room in the mornings. If I go in there in the afternoon, it's to get the fresh baked bread and bring it in the house....<joking>


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> Why cant you tell us what kind of panels your using????????? I dont understand??? here what i do know i have 10 of the 12 watt panels and they are junk sidelights... i have 2 ufos working wonderfully and they have Name Brand LEDs... Also had 2 55watt panels from a major LED producer and they were total junk... So bad i sent them back....
> 
> So whats the big secret about your "SUPER" panels?


I sense hostility in your post. What's up with that?


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## OGKushman (Aug 24, 2009)

I have roughly same area and I am lucky to get 1 lb. 

I WILL BE WATCHING THIS ONE. 

MOJO


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## OGKushman (Aug 24, 2009)

I cant seem to find a lumen comparison?


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## eastla_kushsmoka (Aug 24, 2009)

goodluck


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## JustAnotherAntMarching (Aug 24, 2009)

no hostililty at all.......   im just curious as to the "miracle" panel...?


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

OGKushman said:
			
		

> I have roughly same area and I am lucky to get 1 lb.
> 
> I WILL BE WATCHING THIS ONE.
> 
> MOJO


A pound would bring my yield down by about 4 ounces, but if that were all I got using one layer, then I'd be happy with it. 

Since the second crop will be to add the second layer to the grow, I would then get 32 ounces from that area which would almost double my current yield. I'd be very happy with that, even.

I think by using the center cola growing, I can increase my yield greatly. The main colas would be all there is and they would be packed neck to neck throughout the grow area on both levels.

I think that may make the difference. I hope so anyway.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

OGKushman said:
			
		

> I cant seem to find a lumen comparison?


The lumens from LED's are calculated in a much more complicated formula. I've seen it, but it was seriously over my head, mathematically, and I say that very, very infrequently. My first coherent thought after seeing it was: What the Hell does THAT mean?


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## JustAnotherAntMarching (Aug 24, 2009)

Can we see a pic of the panel? Please.....???


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

EASTLA_KUSHSMOKA said:
			
		

> goodluck


 
Thanks EK, it's going to be very interesting.



			
				JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> no hostililty at all....... im just curious as to the "miracle" panel...?


It's not anything but a HO LED panel. I have my reasons for not disclosing it's source for now.

I will, after the grow.


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## JustAnotherAntMarching (Aug 24, 2009)

Can i ask how many LEDs are on the panel?? is it 2, 3, or 4 colors?


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## Mutt (Aug 24, 2009)

Are you talking about those photographers LED panel light kits?
6"x3" is like 150 bucks when i went a googling. 
Only thing i noticed with em is they are at around 6000K light spectrum. Also didn't tell me much on lumen output.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

Sorry guys. The light panels will remain a mystery until after the grow.

You might be able to catch a glimpse of them during the grow... hehe

Like I said, I have my reasons.

Sorry.


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## SkunkPatronus (Aug 24, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Got your attention now? hehe
> 
> I figured it would.
> 
> ...


 
You got 800 watt hps light equivalent in LED's for $500?!  not too shabby.  Did they come assembled or are you putting them together?  Can i ask you were you shopped because i too am looking at switching out the really hot and money puking HPS's.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 24, 2009)

SkunkPatronus said:
			
		

> You got 800 watt hps light equivalent in LED's for $500?! not too shabby. Did they come assembled or are you putting them together? Can i ask you were you shopped because i too am looking at switching out the really hot and money puking HPS's.


I don't know if the claims match the product. I will after my grow.

Watch for the grow Journal starting about October 15th or so.

Until then, the lights will have to stay a mystery.


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## SkunkPatronus (Aug 24, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> I don't know if the claims match the product. I will after my grow.
> 
> Watch for the grow Journal starting about October 15th or so.
> 
> Until then, the lights will have to stay a mystery.


 
i'm sorry, i didn't read all of the posts because i got too excited and posted too quickly.  I didn't know they were a a mystery. I too have been drawn in that direction for MONTHS now, since summer began it's yearly pull at my sanity.  I have figured out enough to know that the lights of america (which is usually a sucky brand) makes led mini's that they sell at costco, they are good for veg and screw into a normal lamp.


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## IRISH (Aug 24, 2009)

you gonna tell us more about the led's come oct 15? 

i remember reading a couple 'o claims of buds from led's on site, but , thus far, have'nt seen the proof thats attatched to 'em.

i'll be there stoneybud. will be waiting patiently for this one.

rock those panels dude... ...


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## ozzydiodude (Aug 24, 2009)

Stoney are you selling shares yet:laugh:


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## dirtyolsouth (Aug 24, 2009)

Hey Stoney...

Rock ON bro...   Thanks for inviting us along for the ride.  I do a personal meds grow in a 2 x 4 x 8 closet in the sticky ol south and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the LEDs work in your grow.  Heat is a constant battle and I'd gladly put out $500 for low energy, low heat lights that would pay for themselves in a very short time in reduced electrical charges.  If it works it's a win win...   

Lots of Green Mojo to you...

Happy Growing!


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## StoneyBud (Aug 25, 2009)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> Stoney are you selling shares yet:laugh:


 
Yep, it's Eleventy two ninety five on every 6th Tuesday of the month.



			
				IRISH said:
			
		

> you gonna tell us more about the led's come oct 15?
> 
> i remember reading a couple 'o claims of buds from led's on site, but , thus far, haven't seen the proof that's attached to 'em.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to mention the specifics of the light used until after the first round of testing is complete. That includes the curing of one month.
The first harvest in the testing will be near Mid-December. The end of the third week in January for drying and curing. Then the test. Cured weight, taste, burn and most important, the high. I'll grade everything and record it in one of my spreadsheets.

Then I'll tell everyone the make of the light at the same time I post the results of the test.

Please, understand. If the light turns out to be feces from the underworld, then I wouldn't want anyone to go buy one right now and I wouldn't want the manufacturer of the light to gain from it's premature sale regarding this type of usage. If it turns out to be as good as I hope it to be, then when I show that via testing, I won't feel bad about anyone buying them at that point. Everyone will know that it does what it's supposed to and will have the results of my testing to substantiate the purchase. I hope everyone sees the logic of my decision.

It's the only really fair way to do it.




			
				dirtyolsouth said:
			
		

> Hey Stoney...
> 
> Rock ON bro... Thanks for inviting us along for the ride. I do a personal meds grow in a 2 x 4 x 8 closet in the sticky ol south and I'm really looking forward to seeing how the LEDs work in your grow. Heat is a constant battle and I'd gladly put out $500 for low energy, low heat lights that would pay for themselves in a very short time in reduced electrical charges. If it works it's a win win...
> 
> ...


 
Thanks man, I was Jonesin for some MOJO. 

You could also fit a perfect amount of these lights into your grow space. Your lumens/per/sq ft would be a tad higher than mine, which is a good thing.

I'm more excited about the multi-layering of plants than I am with the yield increase per/sq ft.  Even if the yield stays the same per/sq ft, it'll double just by having two layers of plants in the same amount of space.

This will require an 8 foot ceiling in the grow area. Figure two 3.5 foot layers, including lights. That gives you only one foot of vertical height to involve cords, tubing and framework.

It's enough. A standard 8 ft ceiling will make it just right.

If I can get a minimum of the same yield I have now, the other benefits still make it a very good idea.

It all depends on the yield and potency. The drying and curing won't change (I don't think so anyway).


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## Mutt (Aug 25, 2009)

Instead of a SOG (single cola sea of green) I would think you would be better off with a ScROG (screen of green) you would be able to keep the canopy shorter which would make up for the loss of intensity you are getting from the LEDs. just a thought.


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## umbra (Aug 25, 2009)

Mutt said:
			
		

> Instead of a SOG (single cola sea of green) I would think you would be better off with a ScROG (screen of green) you would be able to keep the canopy shorter which would make up for the loss of intensity you are getting from the LEDs. just a thought.



A multi layered scrog, now that does sound interesting.


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## maineharvest (Aug 25, 2009)

Is one gram per watt about the average that most growers get?


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## kebnekajse (Aug 25, 2009)

I wish to get 1g/w next grow...

Never, ever, ever heard anyone talk of more then 2g/w. I will follow this closely, and if you are anywhere close to 9g/w i will be so impressed that i will implode. I truly wish you the best of luck!

Oh, and thank you for taking your hard earned money to do this experiment. It can, and you seem to know this, go whichever way. On the other hand, you seem to know what you are doing, so it won't be a catastroph.


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## The New Girl (Aug 25, 2009)

Hi Stoney, good luck and even if you only make half your goal I'll be very impressed, if you make a quarter of your goal I'll be a LED girl forever. 

There is one important point no one has brought up, it's not just lumens...LED's use a very specific narrow spectrum in the nano scale that's optimum for either grow or flower (or both). There is a huge waste of non producing lumens that emit from MH/HPS and some of the better LED companies have figured this out. You can have way less lumens that produce more usable light than HPS etc. with a lot less watts with LEDs.

 Also I think you are smart by doing a SOG because you don't get as much penetration with the LED lights that I have seen in researching them. I have been thinking about getting a single 300 watt panel but knowing your growing skills I can wait now to see if it's viable. Thanks for being a service to the community.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 25, 2009)

Mutt said:
			
		

> Instead of a SOG (single cola sea of green) I would think you would be better off with a ScROG (screen of green) you would be able to keep the canopy shorter which would make up for the loss of intensity you are getting from the LEDs. just a thought.


Hey Mutt! You're always thinking! An active mind will keep you young! I'm pretty sure that the lack of any vegetative period, (other than the rooting time), will keep the plants to the height I need. Part of this experiment is to also apply the KIS principle to the grow. I'm going to try it first, with no screen, to see if that step can be avoided and thus make the grow more simple. This is something I've been planning now for a couple of years. I've worked out every detail I can think of, but having all of you help by offering the wonderful ideas you have is a great way to double check for things I may have missed. Thanks!



			
				umbra said:
			
		

> A multi layered scrog, now that does sound interesting.


Yes, it sure does, doesn't it? Every crop I've grown, I've looked at the pitiful amount of usable bud on the base of the plants, as compared to that which is growing on the upper portions of the plant, and it ran through my mind each time; "How can make this plant grow the most bud in the least amount of vertical space?". This experiment will be the compilation of those thoughts.



			
				maineharvest said:
			
		

> Is one gram per watt about the average that most growers get?


For experienced growers, yes. One gram per/watt is an acceptable cured weight. I think that can be improved upon.



			
				kebnekajse said:
			
		

> I wish to get 1g/w next grow...
> 
> Never, ever, ever heard anyone talk of more then 2g/w. I will follow this closely, and if you are anywhere close to 9g/w i will be so impressed that i will implode. I truly wish you the best of luck!
> 
> Oh, and thank you for taking your hard earned money to do this experiment. It can, and you seem to know this, go whichever way. On the other hand, you seem to know what you are doing, so it won't be a catastroph.


OMG! I don't want you to implode! What a mess that would make! hehe
I know, the idea of risking this money has flip-flopped in my head so many times. I'm on a limited retirement income and spending $500 chunks of it for experiments is NOT what is suggested in all the financial books. I think the odds of success on this are high enough to substantiate the risk this time. OMG, I hope I'm right!



			
				The New Girl said:
			
		

> Hi Stoney, good luck and even if you only make half your goal I'll be very impressed, if you make a quarter of your goal I'll be a LED girl forever.
> 
> There is one important point no one has brought up, it's not just lumens...LED's use a very specific narrow spectrum in the nano scale that's optimum for either grow or flower (or both). There is a huge waste of non producing lumens that emit from MH/HPS and some of the better LED companies have figured this out. You can have way less lumens that produce more usable light than HPS etc. with a lot less watts with LEDs.
> 
> Also I think you are smart by doing a SOG because you don't get as much penetration with the LED lights that I have seen in researching them. I have been thinking about getting a single 300 watt panel but knowing your growing skills I can wait now to see if it's viable. Thanks for being a service to the community.


Hey New Girl, I've taken the light throw into consideration. I'm glad you've brought it up though. The lights are also chosen for their wavelength and power. I searched a long time before finding this exact type of light. Each LED panel I found that was pre-manufactured, had something I didn't like about it. This one seems to have everything I was looking for. Only time will tell if I've chosen wisely.

Thanks for every-one's support and advice. Cross-checking is valuable and when done by friends like all of you, then it's invaluable!


----------



## 420benny (Aug 25, 2009)

Howdy Stoney! What a great experiment you are trying. I will have to watch myself. I am still in the planning stages of my indoor area and I wanted to try a double deck system myself. I was going to put clone box and clones above a 4 foot T5 setup. My problem area will/ may be temps above the T5 in summer. I need to build it and test it to see what temps I get. Here's some of benny's special GREEN MOJO for the cause! You sure you don't want to post a pic of those lights? Kidding, really. You have been asked that a lot already, lol. Lots of LED groupies out there, I see.


----------



## kebnekajse (Aug 25, 2009)

Just a thougt, leds are cool enough to have inside tha plant, aren't they? You could wrap the branches with em and not burn the plant, atleast if you grow a stretchy sativa. It would really help penetration to have like a 100w _inside_ the canopy. But that could cause some trouble with hot, stale air i guess. Which could be fixed with a fan under, blowing upwards... Hmmm, i've thought about this ever since i first saw a led-grow.

OT: Any bets on how long before leds replace cfls? A year, five, never? I think they will, when prices drop and there is a consensus on how to use them. I myself don't wanna buy really expensive gear that i get a different answer on how to use them from every person that i ask. But, everyone nowadays agree that they will be a standard growlight in the near future.


----------



## StoneyBud (Aug 28, 2009)

Well, I just ordered the first four panels. $578 including shipping.

I read a lot of online reviews of the panel, and they were mixed. One guy said they were worthless and others said they were working great.

It looked like about 10 good for one bad review.

I don't want to have anyone else get ripped is they turn out to be turkeys. (No offence Turkey Neck)

Hopefully, my Host Plants will start growing faster. I have them in dirt under fluorescent light and their far behind the Hydro plants. 

I need 64 cuttings off of these plants by Mid October. I hope I don't have to delay the crop until cuttings can be snipped.

I've just topped the 3 tops on each small plant. I also started with a 1/8th strength GH nute regimen today. That traditionally has increased plant growth in my dirt Hosts greatly.

Step by step it's getting closer.


----------



## BBFan (Aug 28, 2009)

Good luck with it Stoney- obviously you're putting a tremendous amount of pressure on yourself with this thread.

If you're successful, you will turn the growing world upside down!  We'll have to throw out everything we know about lights.


----------



## Relentless999 (Aug 28, 2009)

Ill be watching closely. Stepping up fro. A 600 in 3x3 to a 600 and 400 in a 4.6x4.6.. If these leds are good I would def switch over.


----------



## IRISH (Aug 28, 2009)

don't rush it on the clones stoney. if it takes another month, well, it takes another month. i know time is valuable, but like you say, "i want to do this right".  ...

we, ( or , i ) get behind on my clones all the time. this process is one of importance. ie.. healthy specimens. (make 'em happy)...

when we brought our game here inside, our mindset was a perpetual grow/harvest. dialing this in takes time. see where i'm going?

i've been at this hobby a long time , as you , but for me, it's been outside. alot of thought , and alot of bong rips have come, and gone , just over the past year of my new found love for indoor growing. and , i still have'nt got that perpetual thing down to a science (yet).:hubba: ...

we've also been checking out these led grows for some time. like i said earlier, i have'nt seen a descent one yet. i hope yours works, cause this will, as stated, open up a whole new can 'o worms...

good luck man. we'll be there whenever the clones are ready. welcome to the show of 09/10 people. your not gonna want to miss this one...Irish...


----------



## Matsakleen (Aug 28, 2009)

I just have a couple of comments about LED fixtures.  I have never used one for growing plants but I do have a lot of experience with LED's in marine aquarium applications.  Talk about a maximum amount of lumens in the smallest amount of space!  People in the reefing hobby (marine aquariums) are playing with different configurations all the time.  Its affordable to make your own fixture as well if you know how to use a soldering iron and you have some hand eye corrdination.  The brilliant thing is that you can do your own configurations simulating moon lighting effects, sunrise, sunset, rotating patterns ect.  There could be some very effective techniques for plant growing applications.  Check out this link to another forum site that I belong too, tons of info and instructions on how to build your own LED array and performance data:

(I don't have enough posts to post a URL yet so google reef central DIY LEDs - the write up)

Its a lot to read, but its so cool.  There are so many advantages to LED's really I don't see why we all don't use them.  However, I know why I don't, I'm to lazy to make one on the cheap and I don't have the money to buy a prefab unit.
Stoney, you have some time on your hands waiting for that first grow, you should take a shot at it, you seem and sound capable.
Just my two cents.
Oh and good luck!


----------



## StoneyBud (Aug 28, 2009)

Matsakleen said:
			
		

> I just have a couple of comments about LED fixtures. I have never used one for growing plants but I do have a lot of experience with LED's in marine aquarium applications. Talk about a maximum amount of lumens in the smallest amount of space! People in the reefing hobby (marine aquariums) are playing with different configurations all the time. Its affordable to make your own fixture as well if you know how to use a soldering iron and you have some hand eye coordination. The brilliant thing is that you can do your own configurations simulating moon lighting effects, sunrise, sunset, rotating patterns ect. There could be some very effective techniques for plant growing applications. Check out this link to another forum site that I belong too, tons of info and instructions on how to build your own LED array and performance data:
> 
> (I don't have enough posts to post a URL yet so google reef central DIY LEDs - the write up)
> 
> ...


Back about 20 years, I was NASA certified on circuit boards...

I'm willing to bet that I could make my own LED panels.

I've seen the process. It's pretty easy. 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, etc...

I may give that a try when I get some free time. I'm slammed right now on my other projects.

As for the cloning, I'll continue using the "30% Rule".

Until the last "take" heals for 7 days:

1. Never take more than 30% of a branch.

2. Never take more than 30% of the tops.

With this in mind, I have at least one month, maybe 2 before I'll have my clones. I have to have 96 tops on each of the two bushes before I'll take the first clone. Then, I can take 32 of each bush without stressing it bad enough to turn hermie on me.

In about two weeks, I'll be up to 6 tops per/Host bush. I have a ways to go.


----------



## StoneyBud (Aug 28, 2009)

BBFan said:
			
		

> Good luck with it Stoney- obviously you're putting a tremendous amount of pressure on yourself with this thread.
> 
> If you're successful, you will turn the growing world upside down! We'll have to throw out everything we know about lights.


I've "thought" this thing to death. I've turned it every which way but loose.

Now it's time for the doing...


----------



## ozzydiodude (Aug 28, 2009)

I want first shares in the stocks. Come on let someone make a penny or two.


----------



## StoneyBud (Aug 28, 2009)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> I want first shares in the stocks. Come on let someone make a penny or two.


Ok, it's Eleventy Two Ninety Five a share. Pay up!


----------



## Roguetoker (Aug 28, 2009)

Barter buds or Male White Widow leaves:giggle:


----------



## StoneyBud (Sep 5, 2009)

Ok! Now we're talking!

The lights have just arrived.

After hooking one up, I'll say this: Damn that's bright!

The viewing angle of the LED's is 20 to 30 degrees.

The bulbs are 112 x 10mm High Brightness LED's.

It contains blue: 450 - 470 nm, and red 630 - 660 nm

The light uses 45 watts of power and when briefly looked at from about 20 inches, is as blinding as a 400 watt HPS bulb. That took me a bit by surprise. I've never seen an LED that was quite that bright.

I intend to use each panel to cover 5 square feet of grow area. My total area is 20 square feet, and I've purchased 4 panels to cover the area.

I'll measure the lux at 20 inches from the panel and see how it compares to the 400 HPS. According to the data provided, it should be more than half the lux at the same distance.

I'll post the results. I have to borrow a light meter first...

Damn, I'm still seeing "flash bulb" images.... I think I'll not look directly at it again without dark glasses.

So far, I'm pleased with the construction of the light and the obvious brightness level.


----------



## eastla_kushsmoka (Sep 5, 2009)

:holysheep:   got pics?


----------



## StoneyBud (Sep 5, 2009)

EASTLA_KUSHSMOKA said:
			
		

> :holysheep: got pics?


Nope. Not until the first testing is complete.


----------



## ozzydiodude (Sep 5, 2009)

Green Mojo to get the grow started right


----------



## jmansweed (Sep 5, 2009)

Great experiment. I tested LED lights head to head last year with equivalent HPS and had no where close to the production levels after a substantial investment - so I'm curious to see how it works. A good freind of mine in NY growing Diesel used them as well and has switched back to HPS since. The technology is on the way but IMO it's not there yet. As far as the grams per watt are concerned those numbers seem a little high for a goal to me but the scale is different with LED's - more effecient lumen output per watt. It's more about plant production and square footage, at least that's how I looked at it when I did my comparison. Obviously your goal is effecient production and I'm impressed with anyone thinking progressively. It's rare to find growers capable of pushing the limits and risking crops to help the rest of uss out. I wish you the best of luck and will be paying close attention. As I said earlier - I have some experience w/ LED's so I'd be happy to help out w/ info if you need some although you sound like you've got things under controll. Will you post pic's once things are underway? Again - awesome project Stoney


----------



## JustAnotherAntMarching (Sep 5, 2009)

I hope that those panels are not from LEDwholesalers....


----------



## StoneyBud (Sep 5, 2009)

JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> I hope that those panels are not from LEDwholesalers....


<snick>hehe, me too. I got em from Ed's used car's, toothbrushes and LED's. Ha!   

Got a deal on one o them toothbrushes too! It still had paste init!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## smokingjoe (Sep 6, 2009)

:watchplant:


----------



## eastla_kushsmoka (Sep 6, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> <snick>hehe, me too. I got em from Ed's used car's, toothbrushes and LED's. Ha!
> 
> Got a deal on one o them toothbrushes too! It still had paste init!:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


 

lmao whats up stoney you wankin n bakin?


----------



## TURKEYNECK (Sep 6, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Well, I just ordered the first four panels. $578 including shipping.
> 
> I read a lot of online reviews of the panel, and they were mixed. One guy said they were worthless and others said they were working great.
> 
> ...


 
None taken!  This is extremely interesting.. and suspenseful Cant wait to see it all in motion. Thanks for sharing dude!


----------



## Mutt (Sep 6, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> Nope. Not until the first testing is complete.


Oh come on man....can at least give us some pics of the plants without the LEDs :hubba:


----------



## StoneyBud (Sep 6, 2009)

Mutt said:
			
		

> Oh come on man....can at least give us some pics of the plants without the LEDs :hubba:


I'll be creating a Journal for the grow, Mutt. No problem.

I'll include photos of the plants and a full description of each stage of the process.

I'm not going to advertise this guys lights until I find out if they work or not. It's how I feel about it and there won't be any changes to that.

If they work, I'll sell them for the guy. I'll vouch for them. I'll openly say how great they are.

If they don't work, I'm going to make him give my money back and I'll post that they don't work after showing it in a day by day grow.

I hope everyone understands.


----------



## edit (Sep 8, 2009)

Wow! This is exciting!!!

I haven't started growing properly yet, but I had read a bunch about LED grow lights. I have read lots of bad stuff, but a bunch of positive stuff. As LED growing seems to be in it's preliminary stages, I have hope!!!

I wish you the best of luck stoney...


----------



## The New Girl (Sep 16, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> I'll be creating a Journal for the grow, Mutt. No problem.
> 
> I'll include photos of the plants and a full description of each stage of the process.
> 
> ...


----------



## ozzydiodude (Sep 16, 2009)

Hey Stoney I just bought a LED TV if I keep a picture of the sun on it at all times, will it grow plants? If so should it be a picture if the sun in morning or afternoon? :laugh:

Hope everything is going good for you.:48: eace:


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## StoneyBud (Sep 16, 2009)

Ozzy! You're cracking me up man! Hahahahahhaa

Well, just an update to everyone on the research I've done on the LED panels I've purchased.

I've found a few other grows on other MJ groups where others have used the same LED's, but in not a way that is most productive with LED use. ALL of the people who have used these panels have praised them. Most had limited success. One person had wonderful results, but his harvest quantity was limited because of his application limitations.

The problem with all of these attempts was that they allowed the plants to get too tall. LED's don't have the "throw" (a term used in the lighting business for the *penetration*, or distance effective light will travel using a given application), that other more common lights such as HID's have.

LED's just won't support plant growth at a distance comparable to HID's. Therefore, a method has to be developed with which to keep the plants at their shortest possible height until harvest.

This is what I'm going to do. I've chosen a strain that is a short growing strain, (Pre/98 Bubba Kush), and has very large center cola growth. I'm going to trim off all other growth *except* the center cola, and pack those colas in as close as possible in my entire grow area. I also intend to use only sexually mature, rooted clones and to use nothing but 12/12 HO LED lighting from the moment of transplanting the fully rooted clones into the hydroponic tray.

This, hopefully, will maximize the cured weight per/area, and also avoid the pitfalls experienced by other growers using these lights in relation to plant height.

I'm hoping to keep these plants at 24" max height at harvest. If I'm successful at doing this, it should result in a grow-room full of massive, full grown colas that are literally touching each other and only 24" tall or so.

I'm hoping that this will result in an excellent harvest weight and be at least as much cured weight as I've grown in this same amount of area with much larger plants.

If so, then the combination of low growth and compact usage of the area should result in a method that will allow me a second level of plants on the grow following my initial experiment.

With two grow levels in the same area, each being of the same weight as previous full height grows, and using a month less time and only 1/10th of the wattage, it would be a step in making inside grows more monetarily available to more people.

I have all my fingers crossed and I'm hoping for everything I've forecast to come out well.


----------



## cmd420 (Sep 16, 2009)

really? I mean really? 


every time I see Stoney's name on a post I learn something...EVERY TIME...rad..you rock dude!!  

anyway, enough of that, I am totally watching your grow and fully appreciate the fact that what you are doing will be beneficial to everyone reading this....no matter what happens... you don't manage to pull much,   and we know not to waste our time,(b/c it's safe to say that if you can't pull it off neither can %99 of other growers) and saving thousands for us in hours and $...

or it does work out well,(yeeeeeehaaa in which case we all have a lot of new reading and researching to do to follow in your footsteps...

not blowing smoke, just think you need to know that what you're doing can't be valued enough....needless to say...GOOD LUCK and MOJOMOJOMOJO


----------



## cmd420 (Sep 16, 2009)

forgot to mention that DirtyOlSouth showed me a killer LED contraption that he's working on..I won't say more because it aint my design to speak on, but you guys might be able to bounce some cool ideas off each other..IDK, just throwin it out there...peace


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## StoneyBud (Sep 16, 2009)

cmd420 said:
			
		

> really? I mean really?
> 
> 
> every time I see Stoney's name on a post I learn something...EVERY TIME...rad..you rock dude!!
> ...


Thanks, cmd420! I'm very, very excited about the upcoming grow.

I have two Host Plants growing right now that will supply the clones for the LED grow. I think I'll have to wait awhile for them to gain enough size to take 64 cuttings from them. So far, each of the two plants has about 6 or 8 branches, so the next topping will go to 16, the one following that one will be 32, then 64, then lastly, 128. After arriving at 128 branches, I'll prune each plant with consecutive 30% cuttings every week or so. This will keep them at the same size and provide me with a zillion clones.


----------



## dirtyolsouth (Sep 16, 2009)

Hi Stoney...

Wow...  It sounds like things are starting to come together nicely with your plans.  Have you ever checked out the product "Bushmaster" by Eel River Hydroponics?  The same company that makes Purple Max/Snow Storm and Gravity.  

www.eelriverhydroponics.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=ERH&Category_Code=ProductInfo

It's a vertical growth inhibitor made from some derivation of sea kelp. I've played around using Bushmaster as a foliar with a few strains and I was very impressed with the control it gave me.  The plants I used it on were hybrids that leaned a little more sativa and after a week of foliar apps the plants would grow another 4-6" and slow down or halt any more upward growth and they really kick into flowering profusely.  I've done some reading about guys using them with 'stadium' setups and very small clones with great results too...   It seems a bit like voodoo but if it's made from kelp how bad can it be?  I went with foliar apps because I compost and re-use my soil and didn't want any residual BM in the soil to hold back future grows...

Rock ON!


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## StoneyBud (Sep 16, 2009)

dirtyolsouth said:
			
		

> Hi Stoney...
> 
> Wow... It sounds like things are starting to come together nicely with your plans. Have you ever checked out the product "Bushmaster" by Eel River Hydroponics? The same company that makes Purple Max/Snow Storm and Gravity...


I may check that out on future grows. My first grow will be using the same nutes as I use now; GH Flora Series 3 part. I know it very well and want to use that in my control grow.


----------



## IRISH (Sep 17, 2009)

no sense changing the play book in the middle of the game , persay...

i love my gh products. i do the 2 part fn. it's what i know...

so , i say stick to the plan, and go with what you know... you know?   ...


----------



## Rolling Thunder (Oct 6, 2009)

:watchplant: ... just 9 more days to go ... ... the short countdown has begun! Hip, hip, hooray! :dancing:


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## JustAnotherAntMarching (Oct 6, 2009)

Stoney   I def agree that the single cola method is gona give best results under the LEDs...   I will be doing a SOG next grow in my LED tent and im hopin to get 32 big buds out of there...   GL i hope your plan works...


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## StoneyBud (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks everyone! This crop is almost done. I'm within a few days of harvesting.

While it's drying for about a week, I'll start building my "bunk-bed" setup. It will have two levels, just like stacked bunk beds. 

Each level will hold a 3' x 6' hydro tray. I'm going to plumb them together so that it will fill from the reservoir, to the top tray, then the top tray's overflow will fill the bottom tray and then drain back into the reservoir. 

I have to do only the single level grow this time, but I'll just add the top level to it for the next crop. I don't want to wait for 128 cuttings.


----------



## Growdude (Oct 6, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> I'm going to plumb them together so that it will fill from the reservoir, to the top tray, then the top tray's overflow will fill the bottom tray and then drain back into the reservoir.




So you liked my idea!  thats cool.
Are you going to do anything to hold the water in the top tray before letting it go to the bottom for the flood time?


----------



## StoneyBud (Oct 6, 2009)

Growdude said:
			
		

> So you liked my idea! that's cool.
> Are you going to do anything to hold the water in the top tray before letting it go to the bottom for the flood time?


Yes, your idea made sense! Why use two pumps and increase the potential of failures and cost?

The trays will have the normal ebb and flow fill level before spilling into the overflow to the bottom tray. When the pump shuts off, it will back drain through the pump via gravity.

I'll use my regular One On, Two Off cycle for my pump, 24/7.


----------



## Icex420 (Oct 6, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> That's exactly why I'm doing this. My energy consumption has reached critical mass. My wallet is crying and sobbing every month when I get my electric bill.
> 
> This will work. It's a matter of lights, placement, growing technique and process.
> 
> ...





Sell me one of your old hps lights =)


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## StoneyBud (Oct 6, 2009)

Icex420 said:
			
		

> Sell me one of your old hps lights =)


Ok, eleventy two ninety five forty three.

Each month for only 799 months.


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## cmd420 (Oct 6, 2009)

Whattup Stoney!

So the bunk bed grow is also the LED grow right?  Excited for that one.!.. 

if you make it work, then I will need to start looking into LED's!!(as I'm sure a lot if us will)

BTW, do use the Lucas formula, or the regular 3 part?


----------



## StoneyBud (Oct 6, 2009)

cmd420 said:
			
		

> Whattup Stoney!
> 
> So the bunk bed grow is also the LED grow right? Excited for that one.!..
> 
> ...


I use the 3 part formula that's on the bottle. Full strength per/gallon is 15ml, 10ml and 5ml the way I use it. The micro stays at 10ml and the other two switch at flowering.

Yeah, two crops from now, I'll have two layers of plants growing, IF, this experiment works with only one level.


----------



## cmd420 (Oct 6, 2009)

So you're dedicating the next grow to the LED experiment...

Awesome!...Excited


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## leafminer (Oct 6, 2009)

_it should result in a grow-room full of massive, full grown colas that are literally touching each other and only 24" tall or so.

_But . . . the flowers don't do photosynthesis. The leaves do. Where are the leaves going to get light from?


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## StoneyBud (Oct 7, 2009)

leafminer said:
			
		

> _it should result in a grow-room full of massive, full grown colas that are literally touching each other and only 24" tall or so._
> 
> But . . . the flowers don't do photosynthesis. The leaves do. Where are the leaves going to get light from?


I've never seen a cola that wasn't surrounded by leaves...???

The center stem, with all of it's growth, will be my grow. No side branching.


----------



## ross (Nov 1, 2009)

how's this grow going stoney?


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## ozzydiodude (Nov 1, 2009)

Hey you ol'whippersnapper how's the grow go? You turn 76 and sllllllllooooooooooooooowwwwww  down.


----------



## AlbinoDanko12GA (Nov 1, 2009)

:holysheep: ostpicsworthless:


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## IRISH (Nov 1, 2009)

ahh. teased me for the past 2 months. got me all excited to see this grow go down, and you revert back to lurker status. wth man?

rise up brother. i just 'turn the channel' when something goes down i don't like. we have a function called the 'ignore that mother button'.  ...

please don't keep this underground stoney. ( unless your having second thoughts?)...Irish...

if theres a show elsewhere, pm me...


----------



## 3rdbase (Nov 1, 2009)

sounds like **......to me i dont believe in leds because very store would be pimpin them


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## OldHippieChick (Nov 1, 2009)

I bought one small 18"x18" dual spectrum panel (2/3 red and 1/3 blue - 250 light) and put my miniature rose bush under it. In a months time all the leaves from the base up three inches had dropped off. I did have a small amount (roughly 1/2") of vegitative growth and all the preexisting buds did open but no new buds have appeared. Perhaps if the bush were surrounded on four sides with the panels this wouldn't have happened but that would have been a $200 additional investment - hardly justified on a $4 potted plant. I won't be gambling on the LEDs in the near future but sure wish the OP would update us on your grow status. I'm curious as well. thanks!OHC


----------



## fleshstain (Nov 2, 2009)

here's a growers report about using LED's and claims his plants never fully finished maturing.... just another reason i'll stick with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" mentality....

hxxp://www.texashydroponics.com/shop/product.php?productid=3241&cat=421&page=1


----------



## StoneyBud (Nov 2, 2009)

Hello all. I haven't started the LED grow yet.

I'll be putting the cuttings into the rooting machine this evening. That takes 15 days.

Then, I'll do this:

1. I'm going to use the ebb and flow tub setup I have now, because I have to prove to myself that this can be done before I'm tearing out my entire setup and rebuilding it. 

For this grow, I'm going to use 36 sq inches for each plant. That's 6 inches by 6 inches.

As they grow, I'll remove any and all side growth of branching. Only the center stem and it's leaves will be allowed to grow.

2. Each tub will have 5 plants in it. Set up in the same configuration as the dots on the #5 dice.

3. Each LED panel will be centered over one of the four tubs. Each light will be kept at 2 inches from the top of the plant canopy.

4. Any plant growing too fast to make an even canopy will be bent over using LST to lower it's top to the same height as all of the other 4 plants in the same tub. This will allow me to keep the plants even and allow the lights to be *exactly* at 2 inches from the tops of all the plants.

5. The lights will be put on a 10/14 light/dark schedule immediately upon their placement into the hydroponic tubs. This will negate any vegetative growth and throw them directly into flower.

This, I hope, will keep the plants at 18" or less at harvest time. This takes into practice, the LED's inability to throw any useful plant light more than 18 inches.

I've seen at least a dozen grows using LED's. Each one has used them outside of that 18" limit and discovered that they just don't work that way. Keeping every part of each plant available to the light and withing the maximum distance of 18" is absolutely mandatory for a normal production of a cola. Those colas of plants that stayed within that distance on any grow I've seen, had great bud production.

6. The Pre98 Bubba Kush that I'm going to use, is tolerant of very strong nutrients. I'm going to push the nutes onto the plants at whatever their tolerance is. 

The first grow will be a massive learning grow. I have to learn what strength of nutes to use as the plants mature.

I'll update this thread as I step through the process.

It'll be 15 days from now when the pics of "Day 1" are posted.


(IRISH- I couldn't care less about the very few individuals who have shown what little class they have. They certainly don't influence any of my actions. If one of them posts in one of my threads, I'll simply ignore them.)


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## StoneyBud (Nov 2, 2009)

fleshstain said:
			
		

> here's a growers report about using LED's and claims his plants never fully finished maturing.... just another reason i'll stick with the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it!" mentality....
> 
> hxxp://www.texashydroponics.com/shop/product.php?productid=3241&cat=421&page=1


 
The brief and almost void of data, fax that that shows is not something you would want to use as an argument.

1. He shows no info on light height, strain or nutrients.

2. He starts with too small of lights and then upgrades while the grow is on.

3. He admits that he's not an experienced grower.

If you use that incomplete, brief information to dissuade you from using LED's then I don't believe that you have enough data to make a valid decision. If that's ok with you, that's great, but I need to actually use my 60 years of Marijuana growing experience, (containing 30 years of using Hydroponics to grow Marijuana), to prove to myself how well the LED's will perform.

I'll have a Grow Journal that shows every variable in the grow. It will be the first journal I've found on LED use with ALL the information needed and attention to growth parameters followed.

As the saying goes; "The proof is in the pudding". We'll all see in 80 days on my harvest date.


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## StoneyBud (Nov 2, 2009)

OldHippieChick said:
			
		

> I bought one small 18"x18" dual spectrum panel (2/3 red and 1/3 blue - 250 light) and put my miniature rose bush under it. In a months time all the leaves from the base up three inches had dropped off. I did have a small amount (roughly 1/2") of vegetative growth and all the preexisting buds did open but no new buds have appeared. Perhaps if the bush were surrounded on four sides with the panels this wouldn't have happened but that would have been a $200 additional investment - hardly justified on a $4 potted plant. I won't be gambling on the LEDs in the near future but sure wish the OP would update us on your grow status. I'm curious as well. thanks!OHC


 
What height was your LED panel from the top of the rose bush?

How many watts of light did it use?

Do you have a link to the exact lights you used?

I put a hot pepper plant under one of mine and it flourished. I had the light 2 inches from the top of the plant and the entire plant was no taller than 12 inches. I kept bending it to keep it short and I snipped off anything that wouldn't fit under the light span. It grew flowers on it in massive amounts and the flowers held. They would have produced peppers had I kept that experiment going, but it proved what I needed so I tore it down to get ready for the real experiment.

btw...I'm Stoney, not Opie.....hehe (Now I can't get the Mayberry song outta my head.....)


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## OldHippieChick (Nov 2, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> What height was your LED panel from the top of the rose bush?
> 
> How many watts of light did it use?
> 
> ...



OK I see I lied - it's 12"x12" and 225 lights and roughly 13 watts

They were suspended roughtly three inches above the plant. 
hxxp://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=263

OK Stoney, but can I call you OPie when the others aren't around?


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## IRISH (Nov 2, 2009)

i must be old, cause i keep seeing this OP? care to enlighten me?...

i knew you would not give in ol chap. K+. as you know, i'm fairly new to the indoor game, so my mind is pretty clear , and uncluttered as to what is being said about LED test grows. ( as in, i've not seen one completed as to this date)...

i've seen a few talk it up, jump out the box running with it, then BAM, nothing. they disappear as fast as they appeared. test incomplete. please don't take me on that ride Stoney, as i've waited patiently for this test me friend... ...

i need to know what these lights of yours are equivilent to in watts? i'll go re-read over to see if i missed it. i just woke up, so no need for me to try to do figures this early. ...

you notice tbg and tcvg have come back over? these are some of the guys' i look to for solid advice, and the occasional wink, wink, nod, nod of approval on a given grow. look forward to thier comments here.  ...

although Van can be colorful sometimes, he don't mince words. i've followed many, many of his grows, even when the naysayers said 'it can't be done', well this brother will show you that it can be done, and he'll do it several ways to prove a point. he walks the walk. top notch skills, both these bros'. look forward to thier comments on this grow...

so, when do we begin? ...Irish...


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## OldHippieChick (Nov 2, 2009)

OP = original post(er)


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## fleshstain (Nov 2, 2009)

hey Stoney.... that's just an article that's on my local shop's website.... as you said, he did fail to mention A LOT of variables.... 

never the less my friend, i wish you the best of luck in your trial!

i'll definately be staying tuned in to this one....


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## dirtyolsouth (Nov 2, 2009)

OldHippieChick said:
			
		

> OK I see I lied - it's 12"x12" and 225 lights and roughly 13 watts



I dunno OHC...  Very Studio 54 grow pics...  did you play any BeeGees for the plants?


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## OldHippieChick (Nov 3, 2009)

dirtyolsouth said:
			
		

> I dunno OHC... Very Studio 54 grow pics... did you play any BeeGees for the plants?


DISCO SUX


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## maineharvest (Nov 3, 2009)

Its pics like the one in Oldhippiechicks post that make me not use leds.  Im sorry but that is one sad looking plant.  What is that thing?


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## TURKEYNECK (Nov 3, 2009)

I can't wait to see some "puddin" Stoney. I just wish you'd tell us what 'brand' of pudding it will be  ..and shart on the 'nay-sayers'..


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## IRISH (Nov 3, 2009)

:ciao: TurkeyNeck, Stoney...

(it's a rose bush mh)...

few questions Stoney. first, how many clones you looking at right now. and two, have you grew a BK with just a main cola, and, if so, how tall was it???...

i've got five bk's in soil at 1 week today 12/12. straight grow for some smoke. will take clones in week2, and 3 12/12...

do you have a timeline on the grow-n-show? ...


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## Five (Nov 4, 2009)

Don't mean to rain or piss on your parade but I bought a 1200 usdollar led used in the horticulture industry and it is not a perfected technology, far far from it, yes it supplies useable light, indeed light that the mighty plant loves, but not enough!!!!!! Now 600hps, that is about the best light on the market, 90,000 lumens, mostly hard bud pounding light! Give it a try anyways, I couldn't sleep until I bought one, and then I couldnt sleep until I moved into my kitchen to grow my butter letuce!


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## StoneyBud (Nov 4, 2009)

OldHippieChick said:
			
		

> OK I see I lied - it's 12"x12" and 225 lights and roughly 13 watts
> 
> They were suspended roughly three inches above the plant.
> hxxp://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=263
> ...


I think the 13 watt panels are a little weak for that application, OHC. Everyone I've read of that used that size had the same results you did. 

You can call me anything but late for supper...




			
				IRISH said:
			
		

> ...my mind is pretty clear , and uncluttered as to what is being said about LED test grows. ( as in, i've not seen one completed as to this date)...
> 
> i've seen a few talk it up, jump out the box running with it, then BAM, nothing. they disappear as fast as they appeared. test incomplete. please don't take me on that ride Stoney, as i've waited patiently for this test me friend... ...
> 
> ...



The panels I've purchased are "GlowPanel 45" which are 28 watts each. They are supposed to put out the equivalent of a 250 watt HID. They are *remarkably* bright. I'll see on my test what they are capable of doing.

I'll have a journal for the entire grow. Pics included. I'll explain exactly what I've done, as I do it.

I was going to take cuttings from my host plants yesterday, but I've decided to wait until the hosts are a little larger first. I need 32 clones, and the hosts have only about 50 total. I don't take cuttings that add up to more than 30% of the total available tops. I believe it stresses the hosts too much.

I think a week or two maybe....I'll have to see when the hosts are able to provide enough cuttings. I'm taking 35 to ensure 32 survivors, so I'll need 112 available tops to take my 30% or 35 cuttings from them. I wish I had more host plants right now, but I don't.




			
				fleshstain said:
			
		

> hey Stoney.... that's just an article that's on my local shop's website.... as you said, he did fail to mention A LOT of variables....
> 
> never the less my friend, i wish you the best of luck in your trial!
> 
> i'll definately be staying tuned in to this one....



Thanks man. Yeah, all of the grows I've researched have very spotty data. Some say nothing more than "I tried and failed".

I want to get this thing moving...



			
				IRISH said:
			
		

> few questions Stoney. first, how many clones you looking at right now. and two, have you grew a BK with just a main cola, and, if so, how tall was it???...
> 
> i've got five bk's in soil at 1 week today 12/12. straight grow for some smoke. will take clones in week2, and 3 12/12...
> 
> do you have a timeline on the grow-n-show? ...



I have two host plants, Irish. Between the two, they have about 50 tops now. I need 32 without taking more than 30% of the available tops.

I'm hoping to start in about two weeks.



			
				TURKEYNECK said:
			
		

> I can't wait to see some "puddin" Stoney. I just wish you'd tell us what 'brand' of pudding it will be  ..and shart on the 'nay-sayers'..



I posted in this reply, the types of LED panels I've purchased. I'm doing this test for my own knowledge. I think I can make it work. We'll see.



			
				Five said:
			
		

> Don't mean to rain or piss on your parade but I bought a 1200 usdollar led used in the horticulture industry and it is not a perfected technology, far far from it, yes it supplies useable light, indeed light that the mighty plant loves, but not enough!!!!!! Now 600hps, that is about the best light on the market, 90,000 lumens, mostly hard bud pounding light!



Hey, everyone has their own opinion. The differences between LED's made even just a year ago and what is in the lights I just bought are many. I've grown using HID's for 30 years. I'm tired of paying those electric bills. If I can make LED's work, it will really help with both stealth and money.


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## legalize_freedom (Nov 8, 2009)

Stoney I'm excited to see what comes of your experiment, and commend you on haveing the balls to even make it public.  Nothing good that we have in our lives was given without people willing to take risks.  If your experiment fails at least you had the guts to give it a shot, way more than the few that sit behind their computer screens tossing negative energies.  With 60 yrs growing experience I would say that you are just the guy to attempt this, and I wish all the luck in the world!  The nay-sayers only wish that they had the brains or the balls to see this one through.  I look forward to watching this!


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## StoneyBud (Nov 8, 2009)

Well thanks, legalize_freedom, I grow pretty consistently, and the electric costs are killin me. The extra heat produced during our usual 90+ degrees outside, makes the air conditioning work overtime and cost even more.

If the LED's work the way I think I can make them work, I'll use about 200 watts where I was using 860 for lights. Plus, it will produce no heat, so the air conditioning will run much less. All in all, I think it will be quite the savings.

It will also eliminate any "heat signature" is someone was really bored and did an IR scan on my roof.

It's a win-win if it works. I'm letting my host plants grow out right now for the cuttings I think I can go with 4 plants per/tub for now. That will give me the exact diameters of the colas and tell me the spacing that is possible to max out the next grow after this one.

Then, of course, the grow after that will have two layers of plants....IF the first layer works.


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## DonJones (Nov 9, 2009)

Stoney,

Either I misunderstood your reply to dirtyolsouth's post regarding BUSHMASTER or you misunderstood his post.  

BUSHMASTER is NOT a nute, it is a growth hormone type of vertical growth inhibitor that nearly stops vertical growth at the height when it is applied.  My understanding from having spoken with them over the telephone is that it can be used at any point in the plant's life and with any nute, or even with plain water if you're not using nutes.

Great Idea but I'm a little confused about what the double decker grow has to do with the 9 gm/watt thing.  Since you will be using the same amount of wattage on each level, how will doing the double decker thing prove anything except that double decking will work?

There is no question in my mind about whether or not a double decker grow will work because the plants are NOT intelligent enough to know whether they are growing under a 2' ceiling or under a second bed 2' above them.  IF you duplicate exactly the same conditions for each bed, you should get the same results out of both decks, or did I miss something basic to the experiment?

I think your experiment would be more relevant if you kept repeating the same grow, regardless of whether it is a single deck or double deck until you maximize your yield per watt, rather than repeating the same grow the second time only in 2 decks.  I know from personal experience that it will be very hard (for me impossible) to repeat the second grow exactly with the only variable being whether you used 1 or 2 decks, at least until you have the whole LED thing dialed in. 

Either way, I do NOT have the knowledge or experience to predict the outcome of your experiment other than to predict that if you exactly duplicate the conditions for each grow, you will get twice as much bud using 2 decks, regardless of whether they are stacked or side by side.

I respect my elders, even if they are younger than me but have more experience.  You are way more experienced and knowledgeable that I will ever be!

As t the LED issue, I remember when they first came out for truck lighting there were most of the same arguments that we are seeing in the grow issue.  Now they are pretty much standard equipment on new trucks and trailers.  However, just like in our area of use, the LED technology will NOT solve related but different issues.  For example, on heavy trailers, one of the biggest causes of light failure is corrosion at the terminals connecting the light to the wiring harness regardless of the type of light and going to LEDs did NOT solve that problem.  The crap they dump on our roads to deice them still eats up the connectors regardless of whether the light is LED or incandescent.

Like wise, switching to LEDs will NOT cure other problems like using the lights too far from the growing part of the plant, or using the wrong light cycle or the wrong nute and so on.  NO new technology will ever take the place of knowledge and experience.

Whether or not you reach anywhere near the 9 gm/watt goal, your experiment is probably going to show a significant increase over your current yield because you have learned everything you could learn without trying it.  You also have the other variables in your operation dialed in to the point that even though it will be in 2 different grows, your result should be very consistent because you will duplicate as close as possible the same exact conditions in both grows except for the double deck issue. 

May I suggest an additional record keeping and analysis for the experiment?  Please keep the data for the upper and lower beds separate so that not only will you be able to analyze the overall yield information but also whether it makes any difference whether the plants are in the upper or lower bed.

Once again, I admire your under taking this experiment and your tolerance and patience with those of you that say it can't be done without even having tried and, for the few that have actually tried, haven't  shared, if they kept it in the first place, enough data to enable us draw meaningful conclusions about why it did or didn't work.  In order to have any meaning, except ** or bragging purposes, an experiment MUST have enough information to enable another experimenter to EXACTLY duplicate the experiment and see if their results match yours.  *

Stoney, your's is one of the few so-called experiments that meet that requirement.  You have my respect, support, and prayers that you will accomplish your goal in a manner that would let me duplicate your result because I'm a medical grower trying to maximize yields without sacrificing quality to be able to help more patients.  I'm nearly maxed out on the number of plants that I can grow in my confined area so my only hope is to increase my yield for both wattage and square footage.*  Obviously kicking the yield/watt up to even 4gm/watt will greatly increase my production and regardless of your actual yield/watt, if you show that double deck grows are practical, that lets me double my output without having to enlarge my grow rooms.

Regardless of the actual yield that you get, I am sure you are going to enable serious growers to greatly increase their productivity without sacrificing quality!  Great wishes and smoking to you!


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## DonJones (Nov 9, 2009)

How can we find the type of information that you used in choosing Glowpanel45 lights?

They are the ones by Sunshine Systems, aren't they?  That was the only website that even looked like a manufacturer when I goggled them.  I cannot find any information about color temperature of the light, the other technical information/specifications other than what you will find in any advertisement, on Sunshine Systems' website.

I'm positive that you had a hole lot more technical/scientific information than what I can find on the website.

Please share your information.

Starting this thread before you even started the experiment was sure great "marketing" move -- its just too bad that you're not charging your "fans" then you could afford to do a whole lot more experiments.  Unless I miss my guess completely, you probably have enough different experiments in your head to last a lifetime if you just had funding for them all.

Yes you are gathering a pretty good crowd, including me, and stirring up widely divergent opinions and you haven't even started the experiment yet, although you probably have most of the construction done by now.

Good -- no- GREAT smoking and growing to you!  I just had a couple of good hits and am not sure if I am making any sense or not.  I'm leaving until I'm more lucid,


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## Mutt (Nov 9, 2009)

I found em on Ebay as well...no tech info except that NASA uses LEDs to grow plants in space


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## StoneyBud (Nov 9, 2009)

DonJones said:
			
		

> BUSHMASTER is NOT a nute, it is a growth hormone type of vertical growth inhibitor that nearly stops vertical growth at the height when it is applied.
> 
> *Thanks, Don. The reason I don't intend to use the Bushmaster growth inhibitor is to keep the plants growing as naturally as possible in relation to what I've already done with them. I'm duplicating the growth parameters used for the "full size" grow, with the only changes being:*
> 
> ...


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## JBonez (Nov 10, 2009)

stoney, did the LED industry make some leap in technology we dont know about?

Youve seen led grows, and the yields are paltry to say the least. Wispy buds much???

Im down to watch, but i must say, math is not on your side friend.


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## ozzydiodude (Nov 22, 2009)

Hey Stoney wake up and give us a up date or at least let us know your still kicking.


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## maineharvest (Nov 22, 2009)

:yeahthat: 


Youve been teasing us for three months.  I cant wait to see what these LEDs can do.


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## tester (Nov 22, 2009)

32 ouces out of 64 plants doesnt seem very good to me, just had 28 ounces out of 15 uk cheese plants and 2 big buddah cheese plants and that was the first grow under 1 600w lamp in coco medium


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## fleshstain (Nov 22, 2009)

tester said:
			
		

> just had 28 ounces out of 15 uk cheese plants and 2 big buddah cheese plants and that was the first grow under 1 600w lamp in coco medium



i'd like to see photographic proof of that claim....


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## maineharvest (Nov 22, 2009)

tester said:
			
		

> 32 ouces out of 64 plants doesnt seem very good to me, just had 28 ounces out of 15 uk cheese plants and 2 big buddah cheese plants and that was the first grow under 1 600w lamp in coco medium


 

Is that wet or dry?


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## fleshstain (Nov 22, 2009)

if it's wet, it's understandable.... if it's dry, i want proof


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## Dr. Manny Bowles (Nov 22, 2009)

fleshstain said:
			
		

> if it's wet, it's understandable.... if it's dry, i want proof



x2


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## legalize_freedom (Nov 22, 2009)

tester said:
			
		

> 32 ouces out of 64 plants doesnt seem very good to me, just had 28 ounces out of 15 uk cheese plants and 2 big buddah cheese plants and that was the first grow under 1 600w lamp in coco medium


 



ROTFLMAO   whatever


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## ozzydiodude (Nov 22, 2009)

Let's not turn Stoney's thread into a flaming on someone without Stoney here too?


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## fleshstain (Nov 22, 2009)

i'm wondering if Stoney got tied up with holiday plans?

to be totally honest, i'm hoping that Stoney's knowledge of growing and this LED setup prove a lot of us wrong.... he's definately gathered my attention with this project....


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## ozzydiodude (Nov 22, 2009)

yeah he has alot of our attention. With his knowledge and exp he is one that has a good chance of pulling it off.


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## leafminer (Nov 22, 2009)

I find myself wondering this:
MV lamps they say, are not much good for growing because they put out light of a limited spectrum (wrong wavelengths). These combo red/blue LEDs may be the wrong idea. It could be that the white (phosphor based) LEDs would work better.


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## DonJones (Nov 23, 2009)

Leafminer,

Before you make that jump, what spectrum does Mercury Vapor lights put out?

If my memory is right, and it has been awhile since I saw an MV in use for anything, they have virtually NO red in their spectrum.

If you check her on the forum, there is a chart of the spectrums used for plants to grow.  There is a real high peak both in the Red and Blue spectrums. so I don't see the problem with using red/blue combination LEDs.

I know that Stoney is very well informed and clearly has done his research -- have you?

Good smoking man.


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## Raisin Jackson (Nov 23, 2009)

Hey I don't know if I got this right, but u are using glowpanel45s? I have one and have budded one plant under it. It is a pretty disappointing light, to me. It has nowhere near the light output as the other LEDs I use, I don't think that even packing them panels in tight as you can could really bring much success. Just my opinion, but I don't even use it at the moment.


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## docfishwrinkle (Dec 7, 2009)

stoney where the hell are you?! put down that joint & get back in the lab so we can continue this venture. hey man on a serious note hope youre doing ok. well happy holidays pot...i mean stoney.


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## mistisrising (Feb 18, 2010)

Damn! I was hoping to see some progress updates by now. What's up, stoney? Hope everything is still cool there.


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## nouvellechef (Feb 18, 2010)

Think he moved. Cant imagine moving all that set-up. I was interested in a follow up too.


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## BBFan (Feb 18, 2010)

I am afraid that Stoney has joined Elvis-

......and left the building.

Too bad.  I've tried to find him for an update on this project, but to no avail.


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## ozzydiodude (Feb 18, 2010)

I have hunted Stoney to and can't find a post newer than in Dec 2009. I hope if he is gone from the earth he Rest in Green buds.


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## legalize_freedom (Feb 18, 2010)

Awww I hope thats not the case Ozzy!!  but like you said if it is...I agree!


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## nouvellechef (Feb 18, 2010)

Someone said he moved. I could be wrong but I saw him on another forum too. Could be connected, maybe not. Either way, would be real bad azz if he did this on purpose and blasted on here with some sic LED pics. Whoa.....Never know man.


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## 420benny (Feb 18, 2010)

I think he got mad a while back and left for other forums. I have been looking too, but he may have changed his name to avoid us? I hope you are well Stoney/ POTUS wherever you are hanging. I miss your posts a lot.


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## legalize_freedom (Feb 18, 2010)

me to, he may have gotten a little long winded at times, but alot of knowledge in that old brain of his!


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