# using old vineyl sheets to make a tray



## zem (Dec 29, 2009)

ok so ive been using vineyl sheets for years now, its really strong material intended for floors, its problem is that when its stored badly it gets wrinkled and can never be smoothened however it keeps its water proof and strength characteristcs so i'll be showing how i use this stuff to make a tray. im not going in the tray building tutorial its straight forward wooden rectangular tray as you can see.
materials needed:

-old vineyl
-plastic cable wire covers the rectangular flat ones that can be split into 2 you can see them in pics
-1/2" screws
-1 acidic silicon
-1 non acidic silicon
-cutter
-screw gun
cut a vineyl sheet as big as the floor of your tray (pic1), cut the cable wire covers 4 pieces as big as the sides of the floor. now screw these onto the sides of your vineyl sheet to hold its sides firmly to the floor. 
next you need to cut 4 vineyl sheets as big as the 4 "walls" of your tray. now you use the acidic silicon to glue these to the walls (pic2). if the vineyl is too wrinkled you might need to screw them too, i use acidic silicon for this step only becuz its cheaper than non acidic silicon. now that all the tray is covered with vineyl sheets you need to line it with the non acidic silicon the one intended for use in submerged conditions. line the tray and cover all the screws with the silicon should be done with care, i do this one side at a time, it takes some time but its worth it. 
now you need to wait till the silicon is completely cured and you got yourself one sturdy reliable tray (pic3)


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## DonJones (Jan 1, 2010)

Zem,

That is great.  It will last for ever if the caulking doesn't fail.  Is using the non-acidic silicon to keep it form leaching acid into the solution or does it adhere to the vinyl better?

I'll bet the same technique could be used to crate a water retaining pan for a grow room so that a water spill wouldn't become a catastrophe in the rest of the building, couldn't it?

Thanks again.

HAPPY NEW YEAR  AND GREAT SMOKING.


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## zem (Jan 1, 2010)

Don, the non-acidic silicon is intended for submerged use and is double the price of the acidic one which is used for non-submerged conditions like on sides of sinks, i'm cheap  if i could save 3$ and get the same result i do just that, the non-acidic cost me 5-6$ acidic cost like 2-3$ i use that just to glue the walls with it. you can get a vineyl sheet and cover your whole room floor with it you wouldnt need to cut and glue the corners to the walls since it wouldnt need to have a lid or have perfect corners it could just be curved up on the corners to retain water, however you would better put a rug over it cuz if you drop something metalic like say a screw then step on it you might puncture your vineyl but yeah if you do that you could actually flood your whole room without a drop leaking outside  and if your gona buy new vineyl it would be perfectly smooth so if your makin a tray you might be able to make the floor without even using screws or cable covers since these are only to hold the wrinkled sides down. my DIY method is for using old vineyl, just a tip, if your gettin this stuff new keep it well stored in a roll without gettin it wrinkled


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## Growdude (Jan 2, 2010)

What would be the problem with just lining the box with the vinyl by folding it over the sides and not use any silicon?  There would be no chance at leaks.


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## zem (Jan 2, 2010)

GD you can do that but the main problem you will encounter is that the vineyl on the corners will be curved very sharply and it will eventually break at that point and cause a leak its not the 90 degree angle but the remaiing vineyl that remains on the other side of the corner that need to be curved, i dunno how to explain it better try and imagine yourself putting a rug without cutting it and shape it in the tray. i get the best silicon out there dutch made it works very well i dont see it leaking aytime soon and such a leak would be easy to fix


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## monkeybusiness (Jan 2, 2010)

I've got a 30 gallon DWC tub made from a rubber shower pan liner thats only folded over inside. Works great. No issues yet but this stuff is super thick so I'd be shocked if it somehow caused a leak in the corners.


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## DonJones (Jan 2, 2010)

A suggestion - if using new vinyl put about 1" or larger cove molding in all of the corners, bottom to side and side to side, before installing the vinyl to give it a curved supported corner.  It would also be a good safety move to use a good adhesive caulk sealer along all of the corners and then paint the box with a good water resistant latex paint before installing the vinyl liner.  That way, if the vinyl liner should ever leak, the box should contain it.  In fact I've seen a lot of rezs made just out of the wood and water resistant paint.  Personally I like to use paintable adhesive caulk sealer when assembling the pieces to and then caulk the seams before painting.  KEEP EVERYTHING DRY TO AVOID DRY ROT PROBLEMS, MOLD AND MILDEW PROBLEMS TOO.  Painting or sealing with waterproofing like Thompson's on the outside is a good idea too.

monkeybusiness,  What size sheets does that shower pan liner come in and where do you get it?

Everyone,

Have a GREAT 2010 and GREAT SMOKING!


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## zem (Jan 2, 2010)

Don, the corner is not only 90 degrees normal angle if you place a rug in a tray you'll get a sharp corner on eachof the tray corners so the problem is not in making the tray's curve less sharp, as for painting the tray with epoxy or watever waterproofing its not a good idea cuz then if you get a leak in the 1st layer of vineyl you wouldnt detect it and the water will fill up under the vineyl, and if you wana paint it you can just flood it without any vineyl. i chose vineyl cuz it's available for me used and not being used i had a little pile of it, if i were to buy epoxy it would cost me like 60-70$/gallon


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## monkeybusiness (Jan 2, 2010)

DonJones said:
			
		

> monkeybusiness,  What size sheets does that shower pan liner come in and where do you get it?
> 
> Everyone,
> 
> Have a GREAT 2010 and GREAT SMOKING!


I had mine left over from a remodel i did a ways back for a friend. I'm not a 100% but i think it comes in like 5 or 6 foot wide and they will cut whatever length u need. Not at all cheap though. But nice thick stuff. They have it at H0me Depot and L0wes. If you have an aversion to corporate stores you could probably get it at any plumbing place I'd imagine. 

 I guess i don't understand the 90 degree corner thing. I didn't care if it stayed nice and square in the corners or not. My only concern was that it held water and wasn't a super pain to clean.:confused2: i ripped lengths of PVC pipe in half and used them to tack the liner on, towards the top on the 4 inside walls of the box. Other than that no glue or adhesive anywhere.


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## DonJones (Jan 3, 2010)

The 90 degree corner thing was a concern that the vinyl might crack out from the water pressure over time if it was being forced to make a sharp 90 degree corner to conform with the inside of the box.  By putting the cove molding in the corners before installing the vinyl, you would have a supported gradual curved corner under the vinyl which should make the vinyl less likely to be stressed to crack in the corners.

Zem,  I understood your reasons for using the vinyl and my reason for painting and sealing the inside of the box was just to contain any leaks that might occur.  That was more important to me than knowing about the leaks in the first place, but that is just a personal value system that is no more valid than yours.

While I agree that  most people consider epoxy to be the ultimate in paints, I have bee told by several painters that a premium high gloss exterior latex house paint or even interior *properly prepped and applied* would last several years in a wood rez.  They all said the secret was in prepping and applying it and making sure that there wer NO exposed wood surfaces fo rthe moisture to penetrate and cause the paint to separate from the underlying wood.  They said that the paint would seal the water fine, but if water got under neath the paint, even with epoxy then the swelling and wetting of the wood would cause the paint to lift and bubble.

That is one of the main reasons I chose 5 gallon or square plastic buckets for individual reservoirs was so that I didn't have to worry about getting al eak in a 4' x 8' rez with a dozen or more plants in it.  Also, with the large single rez systems, I don't feel comfortable trying to care for the plants in the middle of the table.

Personally I think both of you have excellent ideas on how to waterproof inexpensive reservoirs.

Incidentally, this is kind of of th subject, but I have acquaintances who are using some very unusual reservoirs.  One set has a piece of painted plywood with holes for the clones/seedlings to hang through that just fits over the top of a bathtub in an old mobile home that they grow in.  They haven't even disconnected the plumbing for it.   A couple of other groups have been using small children's wading pools with plywood covers for years.  They say that the low cost for a 4' to 6' wading pool 1' or so deep more than off sets any short life expectancy.  One guy has been using the same pool for over 5 years and bought it on a clearance sale for less than $5.00.  Incidentally, all of them have dropped down to 4' or smaller because it is easier to build covers for them.  They also use supports around the outside of the pool for the lid/table so that all the pool has to do is to contain the water and not support the lid/table and the plants.  The use at least 3/4" plywood for lids/tables and don't seem to have any problem with them sagging in the middle.

I'm sorry for roaming off topic Zem.  It's your thread and I shouldn't have got on the subject of other DIY reservoirs.  I'll shut up and let people concentrate on your idea, which by the way is an excellent one as is monkeybusiness' too.

Great ideas and great smoking to both of you.


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## zem (Jan 4, 2010)

Don you're not off topic buddy  you gave very good ideas. the vineyl would handle the 90 degree angle easily BUT if you place a vineyl rectangular sheet and shape it 3 dimensionally inside a tray there will be another curve on the corner... i tried to paint it in a pic this must help understand wat i mean, the colores line represents the vineyl inside tray the corner is very sharp at the bottom corner it would be a weak spot and will eventually leak.
i am verm comfortable in using caulking cuz i found what really works, i do it very good and it is done in large swimming pools too. i dont think handling a tray is difficult there are methods to do it right you ust have to know what works, i'd rather have to apply silicon every 3 years than having to replace the whole tray.  next time i will try find a way to mold plastic anyone got info on this? for the time i'm just using up all my resources i dont wana go shopping cuz i have piles of stuff and i'm recycling everything useful and it's proving to be very efficient! i rebuilt my whole room and trays from scraps and pieces of wood and fittings, and i'm very busy in the process, today i gota do 2 lids for my trays, i have a very nice lid but it's made of white plexiglass and it eventually will break so im gona make wood styrofoam lid today, i'll get some pics for that  well i still have to buy styro boards but they very cheap  cheers everyone 

View attachment vineyl (Custom).bmp


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## DonJones (Jan 4, 2010)

ZEM, 

We are on the same page.  I agree that IF you have the skills and confidence, then doing it your way is great.  

I didn't make my suggestion about the cove molding clear.  I'm talking about using it in ALL of the corners, bottom to side corners and side to side vertical corners.  The only purpose of the cove molding is to give a gradual supported corner rather than a sharp unsupported corner.  You still have the problem of folding the vertical corners.  

*I hesitate to even mention this because you can easily over heat the vinyl and screw everything up but gently heating it with heat gun makes it more flexible and easier to work with.*

Zem and other experienced vinyl installers know these tricks and I only mention them for those who may not know them or feel comfortable with using caulking.

There are even some tricks that ZEM knows about that would let him get rid of most of the wrinkles his surplus vinyl sheeting has and would let him avoid the use of screws and reinforcing strips, but for what we are doing it isn't worth the hassle.

His purpose is not to try to make a finished PROFESSIONAL vinyl sheeting installation, but to make an inexpensive serviceable bed out of surplus materials that he happens to have available.  I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't recommend buying new sheeting and professionally installing it because of the expense involved, but I could be wrong.

Thank you ZEM and monkeybusiness for sharing your ideas.

Great smoking.


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## zem (Jan 5, 2010)

i made a lid today, using styrofoam board 15mils thick and masonite wood sheets and some bolt screws. the wood piece you see screwed in the middle is to hold the thin board from bending too much


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## DonJones (Jan 6, 2010)

Zem,

That's cool.  Have you thought about using spray adhesive, or even styrofoam compatible contact cement. to bond the styrofoam to the hardboard?

What size is it, about 4' x 4'?

I've tried to give you rep, but it won't let me.  It says I have to spread it around even though I've given it to at least 3 others since I last gave it to you.  Another forum rule that I run afoul of inadvertently and do not understand.

Great smoking.


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## zem (Jan 6, 2010)

yes Don actually i have thought of that but i once saw a glue melt the heck out of styrofoam and i didnt want to go shopping for pricey glue i just screwed it up with bolt screws, it's holding very well it is almost 4'x3'  thanks


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## DonJones (Jan 6, 2010)

Oh yes, any glue with any amount of acetone and some other solvents in it will just melt styrofoam away like putting water on cotton candy.  Been there too.

I don't know if you thought about it or not, but using the styrofoam insert will almost totally eliminate any heat transfer into the reservoir from above, so that potential problem is gone.

What size are the holes and how big of plants do you grow in them?

Great idea!  Light, Cheap, durable, and insulating too.

Gret smoking man.


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## zem (Jan 6, 2010)

i dont know exactly how big almost 2" i grow small plants in them 1' plants, of course i thought of the insulation  i want to make an insulated area to place the res's in it sometime in the future, i am upgrading everything in my grow, i got many things i need to get done, tomorrow i plant in this tray and lid, my clones are askin me for it, theyr stretching in that cloner already, i'll take a pic of it after the clones are put in, cheers


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## DonJones (Jan 6, 2010)

ZEM,

A suggestion if you want to insulate the rez, put some styrofoam under it before you fill it.  That is better than nothing and you can add walls while it the rez is in  use.

How do you support/plant the clones?  

Great smoking.


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## zem (Jan 22, 2010)

hey there everyone  i did a big cloner/vegger today using the same method and i managed to get vineyl sheets flat enough to be done with NO screws  i was very generous with the caulking especiallly the non-acidic silicon i used it this time to glue te whole floor flat and managed to get it perfectly flat without the screws or cable wire covers  it took me 2 1/2 hours just to cut te vineyl sheets glue them then line them but this is my best of all 3 trays ive done so far. i didnt take a pic i just came up taking a rest i'll get a pic 
now i gota question i wana ask: does it hurt to have an aluminium piece submerged in water? not a big board just a small bar of clean non painted aluminium. it doesnt rust watsoever but i'm wondering if it would somehow release any toxins in the water? thanks


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## warfish (Jan 22, 2010)

untreated aluminum does rust a bit, well it oxidates anyway.  Aluminum oxide is white in color.  I am unsure if this would be a bad thing or not though, just thought I would throw that out there.

Warfish


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## warfish (Jan 22, 2010)

I found this little bit of info on theruststore.com...

Aluminum is actually very prone to corrosion. However, aluminum corrosion is aluminum oxide, a very hard material that actually protects the aluminum from further corrosion. Aluminum oxide corrosion also looks a lot more like aluminum, so it isn't as easy to notice as rusted iron. 

So it sounds like even if it got a bit of corrosion it would just protect it.  It goes on to say how steel will flake when it corrodes but aluminum doesnt.  No toxin release.


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## zem (Jan 23, 2010)

thats it


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## DonJones (Jan 23, 2010)

ZEM,

It looks great!  What  kind of lumber did you use?

Al does corrode away in water, just ask a marine shop why they use sacrificial  zinc blocks to protect the outboard engines and stern drives if Al doesn't corrode.  Also, they use special additives in the coolant to protect the aluminum car engines.

Al itself is toxic, in fact it is widely considered a contributor to Alzheimer's.

The question becomes, does the MJplant absorb the Al and deposit it in the leaves or bud.  I really don't know the answer to that question. 

However, the common advice is to never allow any metal to come into contact with the solution, except food grade SS.  I know I will not allow my water or solutions to touch Al after they get into my house.

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to put an Al bar in your solution?

Great smoking.


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## zem (Jan 23, 2010)

hey there don  i already dropped this idea but to tell you wat was my idea i wanted to split that cloner in 2 with a wall but wanted to have the option to remove it completely to be able to heat it effectively with 1 single water heater so it needed to be screwed tight to something so i thought of using aluminium L shaped bars with vineyl glued to them but i ended up deciding on just making a fixed wall in the middle with a 2" opening and would place the heater just next to the hole so it heats the other side. sorry ijust get these crazy ideas sometimes so i go askin useless questions  thanks for the input cheers


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## zem (Jan 23, 2010)

DonJones said:
			
		

> ZEM,
> 
> It looks great!  What  kind of lumber did you use?


hah man i promised myself from some tim that i wont buy anymore stuff before i look in my piles i used to be reckless in spending money on stuff i didnt really need, so i found that board it was 20mils thick i looked closely i found out it was actually 2 boards 10mils eac nailed together so i used them im not sure what lumber but it's the cheap type compressed wood only 10 mils thick i added 18mils supports under the bottom they cant be seen in the pic. it's my best tray so far, i was happy when i finished it  it's still dirty in the pic but i'll clean it up make all the adustments for it and get a new pic, the vineyl glued very smoothly to the surfaces and no screws! btw it is 4 1/3' tall and 1 2/3' wide


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## zem (Jan 26, 2010)

i gave it a final touch  a seperating wall in the middle with option to open both sides together, made a couple of rails with plastic pipes and gave it an old blanket and a nylon cover  it can be used as colner with bubbler or with oasis cubes like im doing atm just placing theb on the floor and can flood and drain if i wanted and after cloning i will use it for vegging without the cover and with a bubbler DWC i will also be outting some styrofoam insulation aroun its sides i have them already   im very happy with it tomorrow i will fill up the left side and start the bubbler cuz i got clones that rooted


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## betterbud (Oct 23, 2014)

sweet diy work there bro


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## zem (Oct 23, 2014)

betterbud said:


> sweet diy work there bro



wow sweet memories from 2009. I tore these trays down, now i use trays with pond liners made from food grade plastics. although the vinyl worked fine, it is not food grade.


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