# First time grower with red stems/yellow/spotting leaves



## growgreen420

Sorry this has to be my first post and yes I have done a lot of reading but I want some expert advice.

These plants are about 1-2 weeks old have red stems, yellowing leaves and some spotting on leaves.

I have read that the plants are lacking nitrogen and I am still waiting for my fox farm ferts to come in but I obviously needed to add some nutrients so I bought some Miracle Gro (12-4-8) and just added that.

My setup is indoors grow tent with 3 100w full spectrum FL about 5-6 inches above the leaves.  I was injecting CO2 (had a setup for my fish tank) but I have stopped injecting right now. pH is 7.0

At first everything seemed to be going well.  Leaves were fine and growth was really fast.  Now it seems growth has slowed but the leaves are still growing.  And it seems that some leaves are curling up a bit.

See pictures and please let me know what you guys think I need to do.

Update:
Ventilation is a 6" inline fan blowing air out.  I am just now opening up a vent to let air in.  I wasn't getting any fresh air in and it has gotten quite humid.
Soil is just standard (no name) soil with no ferts.
Plants are 3-4" tall.
Water is one of those seedling starters that has continuous watering for up to 10 days.  Just fill up the tray and the soil stays wet until the water level has depleted. 




Thanks.


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## Hushpuppy

Oh Brother :O You should NEVER feed seedlings for the first week to 2 weeks and especially not miracle grow food  You will be lucky if any of them survive after giving them that. 

MJ seedlings should be started in chem neutral soil, coco, rapid rooter plugs, RW cubes, and be given small amounts of Ph6.5 water until they have *at least* passed the first week and it is best to wait until the little round leaves start yellowing, then introduce a very *very light *amount of nutrients to them toward the end of the second week or going into the third week (depending on how well they are growing and how much root growth is developing). The problem is that MJ has very delicate roots when they first start growing and they will burn easily.

It also looks like your soil is too moist. You want it to be only _mildly moist _during the first week and if they take off you can increase the water to _just moist _for the second week. And you want to let the soil almost dry out before adding more, don't let them sit in _wet soil_ as that will drown them. At this stage I water them with a baby medicine dropper that holds 5ml max of water.

I am afraid that you will have to wait this out and see who survives. The MG ferts is good for flower beds but not MJ. You need to either do some reading on doing organic growing or find a hydroponics store in yer area, or goto one of the online hydro stores and order MJ nutes like technaflora's recipe for success, General Hydroponics' flora 3part. There are a few different brands of nutes that are more engineered to growing MJ.

Welcome to the Passion  I hate to have to greet you this way but if you hang out awhile there's plenty of very knowledgable and friendly peeps here that can help you


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## ozzydiodude

:welcome: to MP

That is what overfeeding young plants looks like I would let them dry out them use plain PHed water for a week or 2


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## brimck325

and dispose of the miracle grow properly....peace


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## growgreen420

Thanks for the comments guys.  I guess I can't first succeed until i fail. Trial and error and that is why I came here to get some expert advice.  So let the soil dry out some since it is too wet and get rid of the miracle gro and get some better ferts.  Hopefully they pull through.  So basically the plants were suffering from over watering and not from nutrient deficiency?  Thanks again.  What would be a good fert to use in the future and is the fox farm ocean soil any good?


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## Hick

FFOF is very good soil. I like to add a touch(10-20%) perlite and about a tblspoon of horticultural lime p/gallon of soil. "IME" it will feed plants for about 4 weeks before any nutrients are needed. I use/like the FF nutrients as well. Either the fox farms 'trio' Grow big, Tiger bloom, and Big bloom, or, lately I've been useing their "Peace of Mind" line with satisfaction.


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## Hushpuppy

Sorry to give you such bad news bro  but maybe a few will pull through and survive. If you want to grow in soil then you just about can't go wrong with the FoxFarm lineup. Make sure you get some of the NON-nuted soil for starting out the kids, or just get some of the "rapid rooters" for starting. I got some of the "rooter" plugs from Advanced Nutrients and they work great for germing or cloning. There are a few other brands that make the same type of plug that is just as good. I personally don't like the "walmart Jiffy starter pucks" as they hold too much water. The rooter plugs work much better in my experience. 

Go to Discount Hydroponics online or Plantlightinghydroponics, HTGsupply as these are all solid growing supply shops that will ship directly to your house. And don't worry about the little black or blue cars following the big brown truck to you, they just don't. Here's some green mojo for your girls to pull through


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## growgreen420

Hey thanks guys.  I am actually picking up FFOF and some FF nutes tomorrow as well.  We will see how these little girls pull through.  I have faith in them .  And thanks again for all the advice!  It has helped put greatly.


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## growgreen420

Well I just got home from work and I would say about 5 of the seedlings are doing really well and the other ones have either yellow leaves, red stems or spots on the leaves. 


Here is my question:

I will be picking up FFOF soil tomorrow.  Should I transplant them into that?  The roots of the seedlings are coming out of the bottom of the pots right now....  Does this mean I should transplant?  The first row has been planted in these small pots for 11 days now while the last 2 rows have been planted for 5 days.  For the first week the plants shoot right up really fast.  Then after the first week or so the plants seem to stop growing fast and leaves turn yellow.  The two bottom round leaves are really yellow.  Need some more help with what I should do here! 

Second, if I do transplant should I dose some nutes like FF or technaflora?  I will be picking up some nutes tomorrow along with the soil.  Please let me know as I don't want to loose these little guys.


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## Hushpuppy

Don't feed bro! not yet anyway. Overwatering and overnuting is the propblem you are having now. The foxfarm soil has natural nutrients in it that will become available to the plants as they need it (for about a month). It may serve you at this point to transplant them into the soil when you get it (but first mix in a little dolomite lime in each pot of soil, and mix the soil with some pearlite). I mix 4parts soil to 1part pearlite. Then take the whole plug that the plant is in and set it into the soil and cover it up so that the new soil buries the older stuff(but not so deep that the leaves touch the soil). Then very gently water it (with about 1 full cup of water) so that the MG nutes that were in the older soil get washed down and dispersed into the FF soil. That will minimize their damaging affects. 

Then do some serious reading here on all the stickies at each thread header.  

If you go with the Foxfarm soil, don't feed the plants anything but water as they won't need any food for a few weeks. Then it is up to you if you want to stay with the soil feeding the plants or if you want to be in control of feeding them. It will not work to do it both ways unless you go organic and get organic nutes such as Foxfarm. The reason is the organic soils use microorganisms in the soil to break down the nutes and supply it to the plants. If you add chemical nutes to the mix, they will kill the microbes and render the soil nuteless. If you use the organic nutes then the microbes will continue to do their job of feeding the plants. 

You can wait until the soil is used up after a month and then switch to chemical nutrients but once you do that you will have to continue on a schedule which involves getting a PH meter and mixing and PH adjusting your solution for watering/feeding every time. The "recipe for success" from Technaflora has a whole schedule with PH readings and TDS readings for feeding(and works quite well) but its a bit expensive in my opinion. GH Flora 3part is a well liked and used "chemical" nute brand that is pretty straight forward, as is Advanced Nutrients' "Jungle Juice", which is what I use with much success in my hydro system(both brands work either in hydro or soil). 

Don't worry about the co2 now, just make sure you have good ventilation and a fan breeze going to keep the air from getting stale in the tent.


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## growgreen420

Thank you very much!  You have been more then helpful and have answered all my questions very clearly.  I will keep this thread up-to-date with the progress of the plants.  Once again thank you!


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## brimck325

hey gg420, just a heads up, the cotyledon( first to show, little round) leaves always yellow and die off. glad you haven't gotten discouraged, there's so much to learn! good luck....peace


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## The Hemp Goddess

I would not transplant yet if it were me.  Let them get a little bigger and healthier.  One of the biggest problem new growers have is loving their plants to death.  I know that it is hard to not fuss over them, especially when you are starting out.  This is though about a 4 month process, so relax.  You have overfed and overwatered your little plants.  You really need to just let them alone for a bit and let them grow.  All they really need now is water, light, and air. 

How big is your space?  What EXACTLY are you using for light?  This is important.  If you have 300 _actual_ watts on the seedlings this is too much.  However, if it is 3 100W equivalent bulbs, it will not be enough.  Do you have an oscillating fan in your space blowing on the babies?  Tell us more about the spotting on the leaves--want to make sure you do not have spider mites.


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## growgreen420

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I would not transplant yet if it were me.  Let them get a little bigger and healthier.  One of the biggest problem new growers have is loving their plants to death.  I know that it is hard to not fuss over them, especially when you are starting out.  This is though about a 4 month process, so relax.  You have overfed and overwatered your little plants.  You really need to just let them alone for a bit and let them grow.  All they really need now is water, light, and air.
> 
> How big is your space?  What EXACTLY are you using for light?  This is important.  If you have 300 _actual_ watts on the seedlings this is too much.  However, if it is 3 100W equivalent bulbs, it will not be enough.  Do you have an oscillating fan in your space blowing on the babies?  Tell us more about the spotting on the leaves--want to make sure you do not have spider mites.



Well I actually didn't have time today to pick up the FFOF soil so it will have to wait a little.  And to tell you the truth the plants are looking a little better today as the soil it drying out.  New growth looks good and promising.

As for the space/lights.

The tent is 3'x2x'6' and the oscilating fan is on all the time and the exhaust fan is on, too.  We are leaving the door to the tent open a little to get fresh air in since we do not have an intake fan up and running yet.

I have 3, 100watt FL bulbs.  These bulbs are full spectrum.  

I have no idea if this is enough, too much or not enough light so I am glad you asked that question.


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## growgreen420

I do; however, notice the tips of some of the leaves turning yellow and from what I have read this is a nitrogen deficiency?  Or could it also be from too much water?

And some of the little round leaves on the bottom of the plant are yellow and some are actually browning a little bit????


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## growgreen420

Sorry for all the double posts...

Here are some picks as of now:


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## Hushpuppy

As Brimck said, the little round leaves will naturally yellow-off as the plant grows. The reason for this is that these little leaves serve the purpose of being the food for the plant to feed from until it fully develops its "food roots". The yellowing that you are seeing on the ends of the bigger leaves is probably some nute burn or a bit of shock from being too wet and too much nutes. At this point they would not have nitrogen deficiency because they are still developing their roots and are feeding off the "seed leaves". Also N deficiency would show up as a general yellowing of the lower leaves while the upper leaves are still green. But again, these are too young to have N deficiency. 

Don't get too anxious to "do something" for them. Let them grow some


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## growgreen420

Okay thank you!  I will let them be for now and watch what they do.


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## growgreen420

Little update.  On some of the plants it has seemed that growth has come to a halt.  Still seeing yellowing leaves, really red stems and spots on the leaves.  Just wanted to point out the obvious.  I will be picking up FFOF soil tomorrow.  Should I replant so the plants can start getting some nutes?

My main question is (see pics) why are some of the plants "laying down."  They have not shot up like the rest but their leaves seem to be good and they seem to be healthy.


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## growgreen420

Quick pic of the homemade grow tent.


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## Hushpuppy

That leaf tip burning is the confirmation that the plants have suffered over-nute damage. That is a classic sign of what happens when a plant is given too much nitrogen (which MG soil/nutes are notorious for being way too hot for MJ). I suspect that the other deformities are from the root damage as well. I personally would get some root tonic like "Root66" from Technaflora, or "Biotone". If you are going to go with the FFOF soil then I would suggest that you go with the FF brand suppliments and get some mychorrizae which is a microbe formula that will help both the plants and the soil. I still would not feed them anything at this point unless it is a root tonic that will help them rebuild their roots as they have suffered serious root damage and it will take some time for them to repair. Feeding them now would only hurt them worse.


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## growgreen420

Okay thank you.  I will try to find some of this.


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## growgreen420

So do not transplant itno FFOF at this point?  Just try to find the stuff to help the roots?


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## growgreen420

Just picked up ffof and fox farm root drench


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## The Silver Bullet Special

No dont transplant they're already over fed ffof is a hot soil for seedlings, it will more than likely kill them if they're over fed now.. I have my seedlings in ffof and they are doing alright but they werent over fed when I put them in.

if you feel the need to transplant put them in solocups with inert soil (like promix or some people use a seed starter mix) 

I think your seedlings might be laying down because they are top heavy and dont have the strength to hold them self up, like Hush said, its probably from root damage as your roots are what help the plant stand strong... I had mine do that and I just bunched up some soil to help them stand... of course my seedlings are stretching like a rubber band (because they're outside and not getting enough hours of light as it is) and I caught them before they were completely fallen over.


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## growgreen420

So just give them some of that ff root drench for now to rebuild their roots?  When they are doing better then transplant?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Yup transplant when you see a decent number of roots coming out from the bottom of your soil plug things you got goin on there. I transplanted a little too early with my seedlings and it slowed their growth big time. In due time your little plants should recover.

Goodluck!


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## growgreen420

Okay so I just dosed the FF Root Drench and will wait a couple days and see how they pull through.  They are looking a little better every since the soil dried out.  I really hope they start to perk back up and start growing again.

After they seem good should I then transplant them into FFOF?


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## growgreen420

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> Yup transplant when you see a decent number of roots coming out from the bottom of your soil plug things you got goin on there. I transplanted a little too early with my seedlings and it slowed their growth big time. Im due time your little plants should recover.
> 
> Goodluck!




Thank you.  There are a lot of roots coming out of the bottom actually.... Should I wait a little before I transplant?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Yeah give that root drench stuff a few days to work. There may be roots coming out the bottom but they're still shocked right now.


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## growgreen420

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> Yeah give that root drench stuff a few days to work. There may be roots coming out the bottom but they're still shocked right now.




Okay thanks!  I will keep you guys posted.  Thanks to all for all the help so far!


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## growgreen420

"I don't know what they put in the FF stuff" haha but dang these plants are loving it.  I swear they grew like an inch over night.


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## growgreen420

Well I transplanted and all went really smooth.  They were looking really good and healthy from the fox farm root drench and the roots were coming out of the bottoms of the pots.  I will post pics up later on.  Probably will be in shock for a little while anyways.


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Are you plants finally standing up or are they still limp? lol


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## growgreen420

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> Are you plants finally standing up or are they still limp? lol



They are standing up and growing like crazy.  Thanks to all the help on here thus far everything is looking really good.


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## growgreen420

Check these guys out!!!!  Looking good?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

good recovery!


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## Hushpuppy

Oh yeah, they are going now. :aok: Good recovery. Be patient and let the kids tell you what they want and they will reward you later.


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## growgreen420

Thanks.  They are growing like crazy.


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## growgreen420

Plants are looking even better and have grown a lot more.

I have a quick question about lights.  Basically.... should I upgrade from the FL?  I have 3 100w FL and I am worried that this will not be enough and that the light won't penetrate down as the plants continue to grow.

Are there other lights out there that are "better?"  Any that take less energy.... a light that does not have to be inches from the plants?  I don't want to cause an energy spike or anything.  Any suggestions?  Thanks guys.

EDIT:  Right now I can tell that the plants that are furthest from the light source are "bending" towards the light.  I want to eliminate this by putting a light at the top of the tent.


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Yes; use a T5 light, they offer about the same lumens as a MH bulb but WAY less heat. I'm going to be using two of these lights hxxp://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTG-Supply-2-Foot-4-Lamp-PL-55-Tek-Lamp.asp

They put out 20K(200W) lumens each. My veg area is 2'x4' and 40k (400Watts) lumens is killer for it.  You want a base minimum of 3000 lumens per square ft.... more is always better when it comes to lighting.

With t5's you can put the light 1-3inches away from the plant and not have it burn. Make sure you have ocsillating fans to move your air good.


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## growgreen420

Sweet thank you I will look into that.  

What about this as well?
hxxp://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTGSupply-400-watt-Metal-Halide-Grow-Light.asp

I see that the T5's are about the same price as the one I posted here.


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Remember no live links here, just replace the http on the end with hxxp... with those MH bulbs you cant get your light as close to your plants and you might have heating issues with your tent. T5's are the way to go. You might wanna check out plantlightinghydroponics.com they have a bunch of T5 fixtures.

edit:
hxxp://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/grow-lights-fluorescent-c-321.html


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## growgreen420

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> Remember no live links here, just replace the http on the end with hxxp... with those MH bulbs you cant get your light as close to your plants and you might have heating issues with your tent. T5's are the way to go. You might wanna check out plantlightinghydroponics.com they have a bunch of T5 fixtures.
> 
> edit:
> hxxp://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/grow-lights-fluorescent-c-321.html



Oh sorry about the link I fixed it.

I don't mind having them higher in the tent at all.  I was reading about them and over time they actually have a greater lumens/watts than t5's and cost less in the long run??  This true?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

They're about the same because they generate more heat(you need to use more power to keep the room cool than you would with T5's) you have to keep them farther and they recieve less lumens.

 In physics light has the inverse square law. For example: if you had 1 lumen at 1 foot away.. at 2 ft away you would only have 1/4th of that lumen and at 3 feet you would only have 1/8th-1/9th of that lumen. 

 T5's literally can have the plant touch the bulb and not burn them. So they will recieve all of the light that the bulbs put out. They also dont need to be changed as often and would wouldnt have to battle a potential heating problem.


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## growgreen420

But don't the t5 put out way less lumens than the mh of the same watts?  That was one tgibg i noticed when I was looking these up?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Nope, the one you linked me too puts out about 38,000 lumens and for the same price and lower heat and closer lighting an 8bulb 4ft 400W T5 fixture puts out 40,000 lumens and the plants will get the full 40k lumens because the light is right on top of the plants.  

Whereas the MH light the plants wont be getting that full 38,000 lumens because it will need to be further away to avoid burning up the plants. You will be using more power combined to cool the MH light  and run the MH light than you would be if you went the T5 route; bucause, T5's dont need to be cooled other than the oscillating fan that should already be moving air around in the tent.  You will also have a more even light spread with T5's than with MH.

Theres also do fussing with the ballasts because they're built in to the fixtures with T5.


Edit:
This one is a little bit more expensive but heres the link to this 4ft 8bulb T5
hxxp://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/hydrofarm-flp48un-4ft-lamp-t5-fluorescent-grow-light-p-2710.html (8bulb model)

OR for about the same lumens and still lower cost to run  as the MH
hxxp://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/hydrofarm-flp46un-4ft-lamp-t5-fluorescent-grow-light-p-2713.html (6bulb model)

Of course different brands might be cheaper these are the first ones I pulled off the site


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## Hick

t5s are fine for vegging, but "most" ppl like to step up to a HID for flowering. Far far better penetration. 
You should ALWAYS have ventilation/fresh air coming in and being exhausted.


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## growgreen420

The only thing is my grow tent isn't big enough to hold 4ft t5 tubes.


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## The Silver Bullet Special

hmm Then you can either go with a few 2ft ones and just angle them or to get better penetration like Hick said, go with the MH bulb in a air cooled reflector hood.


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## growgreen420

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> hmm Then you can either go with a few 2ft ones and just angle them or to get better penetration like Hick said, go with the MH bulb in a air cooled reflector hood.




This is why I was leaning towards the MH because of space constraints.  Does it really put off that much heat?


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## 4u2sm0ke

yes they do put out more heat..whats the size of the tent?..can ya not hang the t5 virtical?


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## growgreen420

4u2sm0ke said:
			
		

> yes they do put out more heat..whats the size of the tent?..can ya not hang the t5 virtical?



The tent is 3ft x 2ft x 6ft


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## growgreen420

Here is a little update of the garden.  Some of the leaves are looking kind of weird around the edges.... yellowing/fading?  What are your thoughts and what should my actions be?

Can the sex of the plants be determined this soon, as well?

See pics, please.  Thank you


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## growgreen420

Also some of the leaves are "clawing" a bit.  Does this mean they need water?  I haven't watered for about 4-5 days cause the soil is still a little damp.  What should I do?  I know, in time, I will be able to "read" the plants more with what they need.  Just need a little help here getting going.


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## growgreen420

Anyone want to help me out with why my leaves are looking the way they are?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

I believe thats just nute shock because mine are doin the same thing and are about the same size and they're in ffof  the roots probably just started tastin the new soil.

You could hang T5's vertically (as mentioned by 4u)or at an angle in the tent theres members here that do. With a space that small an MH bulb will make it hotter.

Your 4th pic is just the new leaves coming out still and reaching towards the light.


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## HemperFi

Do you have another tent? How will you vedge clones while these beauties are flowering out? I would set up a vedge area and use the tent to flower -- works for me....


Peace


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## growgreen420

Okay I will just let them be then and see what they decide to do.

And once they get a little bigger we are going to set up another tent for a mother plant.


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## growgreen420

What is a "rule of thumb" for watering?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

when your soil is dry to the touch below the surface and your pot weighs less than it did a day or two ago... also if you're in 3 gal pots you dont have to water that much I water every 2-3days with my one indoor plant and 4-5 days outside because the humidity. Now when your plants get bigger this may change of course.


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## growgreen420

Okay the soil thing is what I was going by.  I haven't watered in about 6 days because the soil seemed damp still?  Anyways I just gave them a good watering so I bet they will perk right up.  

How big do they have to be to start injecting CO2?

Also, will it be a good idea to get some FF nutes and start doing that are just let them feed off of the FFOF?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

You wont need co2 for quite a while, if at all, what you need is just good ventillation you want to move the volume of air in your room out once every 5 minutes. I'm just going to let it feed off the soil till I see a sign of a deficiency. If I gave it nutes now it would surely kill it.  

CO2 is really for bigger grow ops or people that dont have good ventillation. to do CO2 you have to shut your fans down anyways, if you choose MH you wont have that option as temperatures will soar rather quicky.

 Ventillation will also serve more benefits than CO2 because keeping air moving will reduce the risk of mold and pests catching hold of your babies; aswell as keeping your temperatures lower if you choose the route of MH bulbs.

Make sure you have an oscillating fan giving your plants a slight "tickle" in the leaves, as plants release oxygen that air needs to be moved away from the leaves so photosynthesis can continue. Exchanging your grow room air volume every 5 minutes or less will bring a good amount of CO2 rich air into the grow room.


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## growgreen420

Okay thanks.  Yeah there is a lot of air moving in the grow room right now.

Seems like I just need to chill out and watch these kids grow for a while, lol.

Thanks for all the advice so far!


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Yup yup take it slow they'll let ya know when they get hungry. I'm pretty impatient lol when I have free time I check to see the progress on how they're going about every hour lol. I guess you can say I caught growing fever :icon_smile:

Also the plant I posted I topped it yesterday and now is starting two main shoots.


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## growgreen420

What does "toppng" mean?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Topping is where you cut the new growth on the meristem(main stem that growth takes place) above the 4-5th node(for the earliest you want to top, it will make the one main branch split off into two branches if done right. But dont just cut the stem anywhere it has to be on the new growth right above the node that just got its branches.

 There's another way to "top" your plant its called FIM(F**k I Missed) and its the same thing as topping but just a little bit higher on the new growth and if its done right it will make 2-4 new main branches.

I got this picture off google(from another forum when it came up) to show an example of a topped plant the main stem got cut where the orange line is and the picture on the right the #2 wont grow anymore and the growth will be directed at the two #3's  and those will be your main branches.


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## growgreen420

I kind of want to try this?  What is the benefit?  Just more growth?

Will it be okay if I decide not to top?  

Thanks again for all the advice!


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## growgreen420

Can you clone the clippings or are they too small to clone?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

It keeps your plant's height down , bushes it out, adds growth meaning your plant will yield more bud later cuz it gives more bud sites. Some growers will top twice before flowering. Or also will allow you to grow less plants in the same area(with more veg time) if your in a place like me that 5+ plants will dang near get you life.

Make sure you sterilize. Your cutting tools with rubbing alcohol before you make your cut it will help prevent disease.


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## growgreen420

Okay sweet.  I think we will give the plants one more week of growth before we top them just to make sure they are doing good.  Kinda of looks like they have a little nute shock from the FFOF?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

Yeah mine are almost recovered from nute shock so see where they are in a few days and see if they're at the point to be topped you may have to wait till another node startes again


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## growgreen420

Thank you again.

Another question, lol.  Is it okay for the plants to touch one another?  You can kind of see this in my pics but it is a lot more now as the plants have grown. Will this hinder their growth?  Do I have to worry about the taller plants blocking light to the smaller ones?  What should be done about this, if anything?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

I would keep all the taller plants together and shorter plants together, and it wont inhibit growth unless its blocking light. But its always good to give them their own space.


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## Hick

"IME".. topping will only increase yield minimally, all things equal. You will have two smaller buds/colas rather than one larger one. "IMO"' the increase comes more from keeping a more even canopy, which allows you to keep light intensity more even over more of the plant. Topping redirects growth hormones/auxins to lower portions of the plant, allowing it to "catch up" to the upper growth. 
   Outdoors with full sunlight, the increase is near negligible. 
The taller plants will require you to keep your light further away from the shorter plant, inibiting growth and/or inducing stretch. An even canopy and keeping the light as close as possible to as much of the plants as possible, is my suggestion for maximum potential.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

:yeahthat: I Guess I should have worded it better Lol The goal is to shoot for a more even canopy for even light disbursment(sp).


----------



## Hick

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> :yeahthat: I Guess I should have worded it better Lol The goal is to shoot for a more even canopy for even light disbursment(sp).


:aok:... just clarifying sbs


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

I think it would be a mistake to top these.  You have 10 plants and a tiny grow space--I don't think you are going to have nearly enough space, especially if you top these.  That many plants in a 6 sq ft space will do far better grown as single cola plants, IMO.  I have almost 20 sq ft and never ever put more than 10 plants in there and prefer 8 or less.

I also doubt that a CO2 unit for an aquarium is going to really have any effect on your grow.  You are most likely better off just making sure you have good air exchange.

And as a side note, T5s actually put out slightly more lumens per watt than MH lighting (92 lumens per watt compared to 90 lumens per watt) and the heat difference is substantial.  In addition, IMO, the T5 spreads the light more evenly and as mentioned, you can get the light right on top of the plants.  You can purchase a 2' PPL T5 that has a 2' double tube that emits 5000 lumens each.  You can buy these with 2 tubes (10000 lumens) or 4 tubes (20,000 lumens).  I believe the 4 tube fixture is 2 x 2.


----------



## growgreen420

Hey thank you to all the great advice.  We have decided to not top the plants just since this is our first grow and, yes, we have a small space.  We still don't know if these are all females, yet.  We still have to sex them.  I also decided to get some t5's after some more in depth research I did and after reading the previous comments.  Thank you to all the comments again and I will have some pics posted up in a couple days.


----------



## growgreen420

Something like this?

hxxp://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTG-Supply-2-Foot-2-Lamp-PL-55-Tek-Lamp.asp#


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## The Silver Bullet Special

If you can fit it the 4 bulb model is 2x2 and puts out 20,000 Lumens you could get a 4 bulb and a 2 bulb model (30,000 lumens and set the 2 bulb length wise in there to make it fit in  a 3 ft long area) Since your veg area isnt 4ft long.

 Kind of like this =| the equal sign represents the 4 bulb and how the bulbs will face and the 2 bulb model is the vertivle line and the orientation of those. Since the 2 bulb is 24in long it will match the width to the 4 bulb and still fit in your tent.


----------



## growgreen420

Thats a great idea.  It's just that money is starting to be an issue, lol.  Do you think 10,000 lumens will be okay for a 6 foot square area?  I know it should be around 3,000 lumens per square foot... what do you think?  Will I still have a good yield if I just had 10,000 lumens?


----------



## growgreen420

I think I am just going to get this one.  It will be around 3,300 lumens per square  foot.  So I am good there.

hxxp://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTG-Supply-2-Foot-4-Lamp-PL-55-Tek-Lamp.asp


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## growgreen420

8-29-2012


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## ozzydiodude

the 3,300 L/f2 is just good for vegging you will need to bump it up th 5000 L/f2 for flowering


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Yeah just go with the 4lamp one for now till you can save up for another one and remember what Ozzy stated is what you will need for good plants any less, you'll be disappointed but you can always use more light. 

With my space I'm going with a 600W hps which is about 90,000Lumens (for flowering space its 2'x5.5') in an air cooled reflector hood so I'll only need 55000 lumens but I'll be getting on average 8363lumens per sq ft. Sunlight reflectors makes these insulator things that go over the hood to keep infared signature and heat in the hood a little better that I'm gonna use too.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

You are going to love the T5 for vegging.  However, I would encourage you to keep your eyes open for a good deal on a HPS for flowering.  Sometimes you can get a killer deal..  I once purchased a 400W MH for $20 and found 2 150W HPS security lights for $2 each that I turned into grow lights for cheap.

I would never be worried about infrared unless I had multiple large HID lights going at once.


----------



## growgreen420

Dang that is cheap.  Does hps create a lot of heat?  And thanks again to all the comments.  So much help.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Yeah HPS will creat heat but it's the best thing to use, but this is where you will need your greatest ventillation. 

hxxp://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/sunlight-yield-master-ii-supreme-ac-reflector-wglass-p-1947.html
That is the reflector hood I'm going to be using.

I would go with an air cooled hood. Make sure you have a centrifugal fan that will allow you to exhaust the cubic foot volume(LxWxH) of your air in 5 minutes or less.

 With my setup my exhaust system is going to be a passive intake, and on the exhaust side I'm going Carbon filter>Reflector hood> Ducting> exhaust fan. The air will be sucked through the carbon filter> across the HPS bulb inside the hood> through some ducting>to the fan> and up and out of the attic. 

When looking for a good fan make sure it is something bigger than what you need so you can put it on a speed controller and you wont have to run your fan to the max. That will cut down on exhaust noise and lengthen the life of your fan. 

For example my flower area is about 92 cubic foot; I'm buying a vortex 6inch 449CFM(Cubic feet per minute) fan and putting it on a speed comtroller and going to run it at maybe just under half power.


----------



## growgreen420

Awesome this is great help.  I found a 400w HPS bulb, hood/reflector and ballast (the whole nine yards) for $40.  I am picking that up tomorrow.  So I will be set on that for the flowering.  Now just have to wait until the T5 setup comes and I should be good on lights!


----------



## tastyness

Is this second hand or new?

If not brand new- I would grab a new bulb.  You can get them cheap and then you know you are getting max lumens when you go to flower.  Unless you know how many hours it has been used before you got it.
The other two items will last a long time.  Great find.


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## growgreen420

tastyness said:
			
		

> Is this second hand or new?
> 
> If not brand new- I would grab a new bulb.  You can get them cheap and then you know you are getting max lumens when you go to flower.  Unless you know how many hours it has been used before you got it.
> The other two items will last a long time.  Great find.



It is a used unit.  I can ask how long the light was ran for but you are right.  Getting a new bulb would not be a bad idea.  I am saving quite a bit finding this so I am pretty happy with it.


----------



## growgreen420

What is the difference between a conversion and non-conversion MH or HPS?


----------



## tastyness

I don't know anything about conversion bulbs.  I'm sure someone else can help there.

You need to make sure your ballast goes with whatever light you have; that part I do know.  There are ballasts that are switchable and then you don't need the pricier conversion lights (I think).   I use HPS in all stages except seedlings and baby clones.  They live under my fluoro.

Try hxxp://1000bulbs.com - I was amazed and the service was superb.
I found the recommendation on here and it was spot on.


----------



## ozzydiodude

If the ballest is HPS and you want the conversion bulb for it, you will heed the HPS to MH conversion bulb for Vegging


----------



## growgreen420

Gotchya, thanks.  And yeah I was checking that site out earlier.  They have everything on there!  I getta see the little kids tomorrow... so excited.  I will upload some pics of the progress!


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

If it's not an air cooled hood just make sure you are prepared for higher heat. Some people will point an oscillating fan right at their bulb from the floor to blow the heat up where the exhaust will take it away. 

Make sure you get the bulb for the right ballast whether its digital or magnetic. Tasteyness' link on the bulbs is where I'm getting mine too! Alot of people here use that site.


----------



## growgreen420

Thanks for the info.

Quick question here.  Look at these pics.  What is this from?  My gf uploaded them just now since I won't be over there until tomorrow.


----------



## growgreen420

And would this plant be leaning over??

Too much water?  Been watering every 2-3 days.


----------



## ozzydiodude

I would say that's from a hot spot and that you need a osculating fan moving the air around in there.


----------



## growgreen420

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> I would say that's from a hot spot and that you need a osculating fan moving the air around in there.



Ok I will tell her to move the osculating fan closer.


----------



## growgreen420

Are the plants too close together?  

What would cause the leaves to look like that in the other pics?  Turning that lighter green color around the outside?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

No, they can be touching a little bit if that's the only 3 lights you have. You just need that oscillating fan blowing where all the plants leaves are gently moving like a gentle breeze. If you're using those 1600 lumen 23W CFL bulbs, mine are alot closer to the plants and arent burning mine. I'll take a pic of my little temporary setup. I'm using a cheap single speed $6 fan from walmart to move my air around in a space 2'x2'.


----------



## growgreen420

Okay thanks!  We are going to get some more fans in a day or so.  But yeah that side of the tent had very little to none air movement.  So it makes sense that that plant on that side of the tent is doing this.


----------



## growgreen420

Okay so my gf put another fan on the plants and she says it is oscillating nicely.  Lets hope this get the kids standing back up .

How do you know when to start flowering?

I promise I won't have as many questions on my next grow -_-


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Dont worry about asking questions, Thats what all of us are here for and for us to ask everyone for help when needed  

You will want to start flowering when you see alternating nodes on the main stem; this is a sign they're sexually mature. This will look like the picture I posted (no clue who to give credit on I pulled it off google).

 Then you can sex your plants and see which are males and females from the preflowers and take out the males. For future reference, a good thing about clones are they're already sexually mature and can be put into flower almost immediately (most veg a week or more).


----------



## growgreen420

Okay guys.  What's going on here?  lol


----------



## growgreen420

Female?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

NNot a felmale yet your going to be looking for hairs check out my indoor "my first plant (2)" thread it has an example of what youre looking for on a female that's just new growth


----------



## growgreen420

Ok thanks.  What about the other pictures?  Nute deficiency?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

I don't have a clue other than necrosis. Do you have a hygrometer to tell you the temp and humidity under your lights? I can't imagine that you're having a heat issue maybe a hot spot somewhere. Someone else that has had more experience with probs before will be able to help better.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Here is what you're looking for in a female plant these little "hairs" which are pistil preflowers.


----------



## growgreen420

Okay gotchya.  I will keep an look out for those hairs.  

I just hope someone will have some info on way my plants are looking the way they are?  Maybe not enough light?

Are you dosing nutes yet in ur plants?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

No I'm not giving any nutes to my plants yet until I see something lacking in them. You shouldnt have to feed for 3-4 weeks with FFOF. A lack of lighting wouldn't cause that; a lack of light just causes stretching(more distance between nodes).


----------



## growgreen420

Okay thanks.  Well I wonder what would cause this?  Under watering?  Burning from the lights?  They have been transplanted on ffof for 13 days now so I should be good there on nutes?   

Anyone have any other ideas why my plants r looking like this?  Just trying to get as many opinions as I can.  

Thanks again silver bullet for all ur help so far!


----------



## Sol

In the first pic , your leaf is burnt and yellowing all around the edges. That's usually too much ' something ' is'nt it? I had a similar effect when i added too much cal-mag, it toxifies the plant until it either gets used or washed out. Not sure if this helps any.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Sol said:
			
		

> In the first pic , your leaf is burnt and yellowing all around the edges. That's usually too much ' something ' is'nt it? I had a similar effect when i added too much cal-mag, it toxifies the plant until it either gets used or washed out. Not sure if this helps any.


 
Those are my thoughts too, since hes growing a different strain than me he could have a plant that doesnt feed as much as mine, a light feeder. He's growing in FFOF so its an organic soil, don't flush it or it will kill the essential microbes in the soil that help feed it.

You're leaf droopage might be from being too close to your oscillating fan and its giving it wind burn (drying the leaf out too much before it can replenish it's water to the leaf) but since we havnt seen a pic of your fan placement in action we can't really tell. 

If you have a PH meter water your plants until you get some run-off and then check that PH. I don't think you have a lock out but its always good to check ph if something is going wrong.


----------



## Hushpuppy

That necrosis that is starting looks like either a potassium deficiency that is just beginning or a calcium def starting. When you transplanted them did you add any sweet lime(dolomite lime, garden lime, hydrated lime) to the soil? If not then I would say go get you some and sprinkle a teaspoon full on the top of the soil of each one and then rake it into the soil a bit then water it in the next time you water. Or you can buy a small container of cal/mag solution from the hydro store and add about 5ml to 1 liter of water for the next watering. Then do that about once every 2 weeks or until you transplant again and mix in some lime then.

On sexing the plants; don't let the little sword looking things fool you. I forget what those are called but they don't determine sex. What you are looking for is little roundish to egg-shaped bulbs that will form right in the cusp of the node, just below where the secondary branch is coming out. As the bulb grows it will either spit out 2 white hairs(female), or it will start growing out on a little stem like a lollipop.


----------



## growgreen420

Thanks for the replies.  No I did not add lime.  I can get some tomorrow and sprinkle it in like you said.

Thanks guys!


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Hey your drooping problem is from a hot spot... I accidentally moved my plant right next to the reflective foan board I have for a temp setup and it  caused it to start doing it... idk with your set up how to fix it. I had to shut my lights off for the night so I can raise the lights and fix some stuff in there and I dont want to damage the plants.


----------



## growgreen420

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> Hey your drooping problem is from a hot spot... I accidentally moved my plant right next to the reflective foan board I have for a temp setup and it  caused it to start doing it... idk with your set up how to fix it. I had to shut my lights off for the night so I can raise the lights and fix some stuff in there and I dont want to damage the plants.



Okay I will reevaluate my setup today and see if I can't fix anything.  I am picking up a digital thermometer and humidity reader so I can get a better idea with what is going on within the tent.  Also I will try to get some pics uploaded of the grow tent.

Thanks for the info!


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

You really, really, really need more/better light.  While I don't think the necrosis has anything to do with the light, you are really underlit and are getting stretch that is only going to get worse.  In addition to oscillating fans, you need some kind of exhaust fan.  Plants need a continual supply of fresh air all the time time the lights are on for proper photosynthesis--this requires an exhaust fan that can exchange the air in the space at least (IMO) once a minute.


----------



## growgreen420

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> You really, really, really need more/better light.  While I don't think the necrosis has anything to do with the light, you are really underlit and are getting stretch that is only going to get worse.  In addition to oscillating fans, you need some kind of exhaust fan.  Plants need a continual supply of fresh air all the time time the lights are on for proper photosynthesis--this requires an exhaust fan that can exchange the air in the space at least (IMO) once a minute.



The lights are being ordered.  T5's with a total lumens of 20,000/6 = 3,333 lumens per square foot.

I have a 6 inch booster exhaust fan and two smaller intake fans.  (The tent blows up like a balloon with the door closed lol)  Right now I am circulating the grow room 6 times a minute.

This morning when I stuck my head in the grow tent it was really humid and "musty"  Kind of like after a rain storm.  I don't know why it gets so humid in there especially when it's not like that in the house?  

I think I may have found the reason...  The tent is inside a pretty big closet but the intake and exhaust ports are inside the closet as well.  Meaning the exhaust air must be going back into the intake side...? 

This is just my theory and I will by making changes later today.  

pH is like 7.0-7.2 and I will have temp and humidity readings later today.  

I really hope I can figure this out. 

(And I added one more light, total of 4 100w FL, now)


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

You do not want your tent to blow up like a balloon--you want negative pressure in there--you want the walls to suck in.  You need to be _exhausting_ several times a minute, not just circulating air.  The CO2 gets depleted quite quickly--you need to exhaust out old CO2 depleted air and bring in fresh air.  Part of the reason that it is getting so humidity is most likely inadequate exhaust.  Duct booster fans do not have the power to do what you want.  They are not meant to be stand alone fans--they are meant to add a boost to long ducting runs that are vented with large fans.  Oscillation fans are meant to move the air around, exhaust fans are meant to exhaust the hot, moisture-ridden, CO2 depleted air out and being in fresh, cooler air.

And, just so you are aware, your lights are not actually 100Ws--you have 100W _equivalent_ lights, a useless number for growing--they are most likely actually around 24 watts and are only putting out about 1500-1600 lumens.  Four of those lights will adequately light a space about 1' x 2'.  A 400W HPS light would be an excellent choice for that space though.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> You do not want your tent to blow up like a balloon--you want negative pressure in there--you want the walls to suck in.  You need to be _exhausting_ several times a minute, not just circulating air.  The CO2 gets depleted quite quickly--you need to exhaust out old CO2 depleted air and bring in fresh air.  Part of the reason that it is getting so humidity is most likely inadequate exhaust.  Duct booster fans do not have the power to do what you want.  They are not meant to be stand alone fans--they are meant to add a boost to long ducting runs that are vented with large fans.  Oscillation fans are meant to move the air around, exhaust fans are meant to exhaust the hot, moisture-ridden, CO2 depleted air out and being in fresh, cooler air.
> 
> And, just so you are aware, your lights are not actually 100Ws--you have 100W _equivalent_ lights, a useless number for growing--they are most likely actually around 24 watts and are only putting out about 1500-1600 lumens.  Four of those lights will adequately light a space about 1' x 2'.  A 400W HPS light would be an excellent choice for that space though.


 
I have my 3 plants under 4 of those lights in a temproary 1'x2' space and they're still not really growing like I would hope for I still havent been able to order my lights yet (gotta love the economy right lol). Since your grow tent is 3x2x6 you have 36 cubic ft of air

 hxxp://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/vortex-inch-172-cfm-high-power-inline-fan-p-351.html <- That fan runs at 176CFM(Cubic feet per minute).

 If you put it on a speed controller at half power that is only 86cubic feet per minute which it will move roughly 2 times your air per minute. Also running it at half power will make the fan last longer. That should fix your air problem. There is no need for an intake fan because your exhaust will just suck the air in anyways. Don't just exhaust back into the same room or there wont be any fresh air coming into the tent.

 I'm exhausting up into my attic and out of the roof vents. _If you choose to vent to the attic make sure you expell the air out of the attic or you risk mold! _It would be easier to vent out the side of the house and make it what looks like a dryer vent, or maybe into a crawlspace.


----------



## growgreen420

Well here is the scoop.  I met a local grower today and he pretty much said what you guys said.  So far I got rid of the intake fans (tent is sucking in a bit with the exhaust fan on).  Got a humidity reader and temperature.  Temp is at 76 F and humidity is 56%.  Also got a liquid pH tester and found out the pH of the distilled water is 5-5.5 :/.  

The local grower also told me to start injecting CO2 (since I have the whole setup).

What do you guys think of this so far?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

You wont need CO2 if your exhaust is fixed. You can't run your ventillation when you do CO2... and you will need stronger light if you choose to do CO2 you will need to step up your lighting alot more than you have now.  It's really not necessary for your size grow. What do you mean by "injecting" CO2, it doesnt go into the soil.


----------



## growgreen420

The exhaust fan is on a timer and shuts off when the CO2 is going in.  By injecting I mean injecting into the grow tent, not the soil lol.  

So just run the exhaust fan all the time with no inlet air and no CO2?  Even when I get the better lights here still done run CO2?

Also, this guy said. run my lights 18/6 for veg and NOT 24?  Is this right?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

You always run an intake but your intake is just a hole for the air to be sucked in from your exhaust. I've only seen people use CO2 on bigger grows WAY bigger than what you or me will have going on. Yes run your exhaust fan 24/7.  It's been proven that 18/6 lighting promotes more stretch than 24/0 during veg. You dont need a dark cycle during veg only flowering.


----------



## growgreen420

Okay thanks a lot!  I will do that right now.  There is a little whole from where my power cords go into the tent for the lights and fans so I will just use that for an intake.  Also, I will keep lights on 24/0.  It makes sense to me to do that but then it makes sense to do 18/6 because "that is what nature does."  But I will just listen to what you guys say since you have experience I do not... yet, lol.

So the exhaust fan is on.  I now have 3 oscillating fans and will make that intake hole.  Should be good...

Also, what to do about the pH?  Is that low?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

24/0 allows the plant to grow constantly and fuller in the same amount of time making more future bud sites . Curious to see how to fix your PH I've ben reading that lime will help balance PH. I just ordered GH3 part nutes and Calmag today for when feeding time comes. 

Later down the road if you continue growing you might want to take a look at organic super soil. NV so far has the best soil mix there is from what I've read. His mix if you add enough per pot you should only need to add water the whole grow.


----------



## growgreen420

I will just leave the lights on 24/0 for now and see how that works.  Thanks again!


----------



## Hushpuppy

Definitely keep the lights on 24hrs during veg. I know that seems to go against nature but we aren't growing in nature, we are artificially enacting nature within our grow environments, so the same rules don't apply all the time. Experience has shown all who grow MJ indoors that it doesn't need dark time during veg and actually grows better and tighter nodes under 24hrs of light. 18/6 won't hurt but it won't help either, and it will cause the plants to stretch out in search of the light. 

The reason that this happens and sooo many people just don't understand this, is because MJ is a high energy plant. It needs a lot of light energy to do its thing. Just like any fruiting trees or plants that produce fruits need a lot of direct sunlight. MJ creates complex compounds within its leaves(THC,CBD) and these compounds take a lot of energy to produce. So the plants have evolved the need for lots-o-light. 

If they aren't getting enough light in nature, they will stretch themselves out to get above the competition to get to the light source. If you place several plants together under 1 light source and 1-2 of them are weaker than the others, the stronger ones will choke out the weaker ones by stretching over them to hog up the light. Its evolution, survival of the fittest.

The sun's light is sooo much more intense, encompassing, and invasive than what we can(reasonably) give the plants with artificial light sources. That is why we have to break the rules to allow the plants to get what they need to prevent evolution from taking control of our grows. That is why so many here preach "lumens, lumens!!" The sun puts out about 10,000 lumens per square foot, but in our grows we have found that running (at the very least) 3000 per square foot for 24hrs will suffice for vegging. raising it to about 5000 per sqft for vegging is best(most cost effective) in my opinion for getting the nice rich growth. 

Once you are ready to switch to flowering, the plants change gears and really go into chemical production mode and need even more light energy. Now you have a plant that has to have 12hrs of darkness everyday to switch over to flowering but needs more energy than during veg. That is why I bump my lighting up to at least 7000 lumens per sqft. of floor space.

The flip side of all this light that is needed is; just like people who are charging up their daily activities and need more air to breath and cool off, so do the plants. The more light they get the more activity they do, the more "fresh air" they need. I have learned that while CO2 can be very beneficial for larger grows that are very tightly managing the atmosphere of the grow space, for smaller grows, it only adds a complication to the grow that is unneccessary. You have to have good exausting of the heat that builds up from the intense light or everything from plants to equipment suffers. There is plenty of CO2 in the outer atmosphere that you need to bring in to cool the space, so trying to work in extra co2 really doesn't add much benefit to the small grow.

Sorry to go off on a sunlight lecture here :doh: but I hope that it helps you to understand a little more about this really cool hobby that we all so enjoy. There is so much to learn and it is quite fascinating to learn it as we go. Just when you think you got it all down, you learn something new (or more truthfully, something old that you can apply in a new way).


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

I would also recommend forgetting the CO2.  

Your pH is actually a little bit high--you want to be running around 6.8.  

There are some plants that require a dark period, but marijuana is not one of them.  It will grow all the time it has light, air, and nutrients.  We are not trying to duplicate nature with indoor grows.


----------



## growgreen420

Thanks so much for all the info here!  Great read!  

Gosh I am really up in the air with the CO2.  You guys bring really good facts out about it and then I talk to some other people who love it.  For a first time grower I think I will just listen to you guys and forget about it for now and focus on other things.  I ordered the lights last night and should be here in a week.  These lights will put me at about 4,000 lumens per square foot for veg and then I have my 400w HPS setup all ready to go for flowering.

And on the digital pH measuring device it reads about 7.0 and on my liquid test kit it read about 5.5????  I have no idea what to go by.  I am using distilled water so should that not be at 7.0????


----------



## growgreen420

I also picked up a bottle of CALiMAGic and a bottle of Bloom sea minerals.  (recommended to me by the local grower.  He is actually the guy who works at the local hydro store and has been grower for 20 years.  He was like "I am assuming you are growing tomatoes, right?"  I looked at him, smiled and said "yeah."  haha he knew what was going on and that was when he started telling me about his growing experience.)  Anyways, after adding that stuff last night, it seems like the plants really took to it nicely, looking at them this morning.  

Now the question is... when do I have to start putting in nutes?  What is a good thing to start with for a first time grower like me?  FF stuff?


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

CO2 had be quite hard to regulate--I just don't think you need the hassle starting out and if you have adequate ventilation, you do not need it.

Is your pH meter calibrated?  Test strips are really not accurate at all, however if a meter is not calibrated, it is not either.

I think it is important to know what you are feeding your plants and not just add things because some guy in a grow store talks it up.  You generally do not need to add any calcium until you are in flowering.  Are you growing organic?  Bloom sea minerals (what is that EXACTLY?) sound like an organic product.  Chem nutes and oganic nutes are not compatible--the chemicals will generally kill all the beneficials in organic grows.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Start feeding your plants when you see a sign of a deficiency.... FFOF will feed roughly for 3-4 weeks depending on the strain. 

Hey Hemp, I got my plants in FFOF with no amendments even though it will kill off all the microbes in the soil with chem nutes can I still use them when the soil has been used up? I have GH 3 part with calmag on the way for feeding these 3 practice plants and in the event I didnt add enough super soil to the pot for future grows. Would you recommend organic nutes instead especially if I plant to reuse the super soil?


----------



## growgreen420

The digital meter is "set" from the factory and the liquid tests are not strips.  The liquid test is the one where you fill up a vial with some water and add liquid drops to it and then look at the color of the water to what it changes to to that of a color chart.  I use the same thing for my fish tanks but this is a different brand.

The Bloom Sea Minerals can be found here:
hxxp://mygardendoctor.com/bloom-sea-minerals-1-liter/

And I was recommended the calimagic a little earlier on this thread.

I guess I may have acted too soon with adding these however I don't think they will hurt anything?

It has been nearly 3 weeks now since the transplant into the FFOF so I guess it's not too bad?  The sea minerals is just trace nutes and the calimagic is self explanatory.

When I was talking to this dude at the hydro shop everything he said sounded good... but now I realize that he is there to sell products to bring in money... so who knows if what he said was true or if what he said was just to benefit the company...


----------



## growgreen420

Like Silver Bullet said, should I stick with the FF supply for nutes and stay organic or should I go with chem nutes like the GH 3 part as well?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

I guess I should have elaborated a little more on the FFOF... it will feed for 3 weeks but if your strain is a light feeder is could add a few weeks to that... I would have waited until you see it starting to lack in nutes somewhere since they were already over fed from a small seedling. I've only read on here the growers dont normally add cal mag until they start flowering.

 Most hydro store owners dont actually grow regardless of what he told you. This site is way better to get a ,sort of unbiased, multiple opinions without all the teenage drama of other forums. My hydro store lady told me that my super soil list wasnt going to work for anything though I've seen results on this site (I just couldnt tell her that and it was developed with the guy that made it and a professor at WSU I believe), and I should go with her canna brand nutes which she also said will out preform GH 3 part nutes.

 Canna brand is the main brand she sells and is her most expensive.. so of course she will say its the best. Be careful about who you hint to about growing if you arent an a MJ friendly state; my hydro store I found out is under police surveillance across the street.


----------



## growgreen420

I guess the Bloom Sea Minerals (From the line up of the "Yellow Bottles") is a new whole product line that came out and it's hard to find much info on it.  But like I stated before; as I read around online, it contains trace elements that are there to "fill-in" where the plants need it and will eliminate deficiencies...?


----------



## growgreen420

Dang okay.  That is sketchy.  I will have to keep a lower profile for now on.  Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

Whether you want to go organic or not is up to you.  The GH Flora series is really easy to use and is readily available.  All lines of nutes formulated for mj should supply the micro nutrients the plant needs.    

IMO, organics takes a bit more work, but there are advantages to that also in not having to pH everything, which reduces the work.  While meters may come precalibrated, I have never seen a pH meter that does not require periodic calibration.  I never trust them right out of the box and the first thing I do with a new meter is check the calibration.  When I was running hydro, I calibrated at least twice a month.

Like The Silver Bullet Special, I urge caution when visiting your local hydro store.  It is quite important to not talk about your growing to anyone, regardless of how much they insinuate that _they_ grow.


----------



## growgreen420

Yep.  I will be taking much more caution now.  

Here is a pic of the garden.  Never seen the plants this healthy before:


----------



## growgreen420

Female?


----------



## Hushpuppy

Oh yeah they are looking nice and healthy. I do believe that is a female preflower. You can see the 2 hairs coming up out of the top for sure. Those are the actual "pistels" that carry the chromosomes in the pollen down to the ovum to produce the seed.

Now if you want to see some serious bushy growth on them before putting them into flower, you can do a couple things. You can simply pinch the very top bulb of growth out(topping) which will cause the 2 side branches to come up and form a twin cola. Or you can do what some here like to do which is "Fimming" which is similar to "topping". It will cause the upward growth to "pause" for a week or so and force all of the lower branches to shoot up and form a multi-top cola. 

To do that you would gently spread the top leaf growth open to get into where the center bulb of growth is, then with fine tipped scissors or using forefinger and thumb nails, snip about 2/3-3/4 of that little bulb out, leaving the lower 1/4-1/3 in place. That will cause the plant to respond within a few days and you will see shocking growth. But be ready for them to bush out a lot, and they will want to eat and drink more as they are accelerating their growth to catch up all of the lower branches with the "damaged" top.

If you have the area to spread them out some, that is a great way to keep them shorter and cause them to build a nice, bushy bud canopy


----------



## growgreen420

Thanks for the advice.  It is something to think about for sure it's just that my grow room isn't really all that big. Next grow I want to grow less plants but much more healthier and lusher growth.  I was told to top the plants but still seem a little worried about it being my first time and all.  They have been growing for 1 month now.  What would u recommend... how much longer should they veg before I put them into flowering?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

You can flower the plants that have those preflowers showing. I'm waiting till my plants get bigger so I can take clones off this thai I'm growing out... shes a stinky one in veg lol cant wait to flower it.


----------



## Hushpuppy

It depends on your space. When you flip them, they will stretch some. Anywhere from half the height again to 3x the height that they are when you flip them. You don't have to top them if you don't want too, they will still produce. You can flip them now or wait and allow them to get a little bigger if you know you have the verticle space. Just make sure you are ready with the extra lumens, good ventilation, and extra bloom nutrients so that they can do their thing without interruption.


----------



## growgreen420

Yep I would say all is doing well.  I can tell there are quite a bit of different strains.  Some plants are growing at different speeds and some have way different leaves... some are long and skinny and some are short and wide.  However; the plant that is showing female signs is the biggest, most healthiest, plant.  Looks like I know which one to clone.    When should I clone?  I guess when the time comes I will have a few questions about this.  I know the basics and the root gel and stuff like that but I will have questions... like everything else.

Also, as far as the sea minerals go.... should I continue to use them?  They are organic so it won't hurt any beneficials? 

Also, the CALiMAGic... should I use that or wait until flowering or wait until I see deficiencies?  

Thanks again!!!!


----------



## Hushpuppy

The best time to clone is when you are within a week of moving the girls to flower, that way you know all the girls are indeed girls, and they have had a chance to extend some nice cutting length branches at the bottom of the plants(which is the best place to take cuttings from the plant). Don't worry, cloning is much easier than you think.

You can give the sea minerals as I suspect(without having read up on it) that is is a micronutrient suppliment. I would use it very lightly, as in what ever the directions say for using it, cut it to half the amount for half the time, then increase later if you see the need too.

Others may disagree on this but I have seen just about everyone suppliment soils including FFoF with sweet lime which is the organic version of the calimagic, so I would use the calimag(unless you also added lime to your soil). Again with the cal/mag, you want to use it sparringly unless you start to see some deficiency developing. Just cut the recommended dosage to 1/3 and go from there.

The next thing for you to consider is do you want to stay on the "more organic" path or switch to chem nutes. If I recall, the containers that the girls are in are fairly small so the soil nutes won't last long before you will have to start earnestly feeding. You can stay "more organic" without going the DIY route. You just have to buy the organic suppliments from FF. I have also read that the "earth Juice" brand of organic ferts is very high quality.

If you don't have the time to really delve into the organic trail and just want to go the easiest route then switching over to chem nutes like GH3part, AN3part "jungle juice" which I use is also very simple and easy to work with and these will work well with the calimagic.


----------



## growgreen420

There is so much stuff to think about lol.  I like the organic because of the organic part but I have read that chem nutes are a bit easier to use.  For a first time grower what would u think would be best for me?

Both FF and GH3part is available to me at my local hydro store.  And I will be transplanting into bigger pots here in a week or so.  These will be the biggest pots the plants will see for this grow period.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

With me not having a whole lot of time to watch my plants but just an hour or so a day now I decided to make an organic super soil mix (NV's super soil) and that will hopefully let me just only add water to the plants the length of the grow (veg and flower) but the trick to that is adding the right amount of super soil to the bottom of the pot, not enough and I'll have to add nutes, too much (the soil is incredibly strong) and it will fry up the plants. But also you gotta add enough to last you the length of the grow and figure out a good veg period once you know the average flower time. 

Those different "strains" could be the same strain but different phenotypes. I'm not sure if you are growing from a bagseed or if you have known genetics.


----------



## sMACkaddict

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> You can flower the plants that have those preflowers showing. I'm waiting till my plants get bigger so I can take clones off this thai I'm growing out... shes a stinky one in veg lol cant wait to flower it.



You can put plants into 12/12 from seed and it won't have any affect on when they start flowering.  You can continue to let the plants veg by delaying the switch to 12/12, by however long you want, after the plants have displayed sexual maturity(alternating nodes are a better indicator than pre flowers). 

sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

Super soil?  That sounds like a little too much for me right now lol.  But it is definitely interesting that is for sure.

Yeah I want to wait until I see alternating nodes before I start flowering.  I was think a good solid 2 month veg period?  So another 3-4 weeks I was thinking?  I would like to see the plants get at least 2 feet tall before flowering.

I am just stuck at the part (I know I will need nutes, soon) but should i go organic or chem?  If organic I would like to go with FF and for chem I would like to go with GH3 part.  Any suggestions?  What should I do as a first time grower?  I have read that chem nutes are a little easier to deal with?  What should I do?  Thanks!


----------



## sMACkaddict

I think its a personal preference.  Both have different learning curves and if you want to switch from one to the other at some point you will still have to learn the same amount even after trying the other.  So it depends on how important organic is to you and your final product.

sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

Organic or Chem... does one produce a "better" final product?


----------



## sMACkaddict

you will not get a satisfying answer to your question.  It is subjective.  If an organic final product is what you want, then go organic.  That is the long and short of it.

sMACk


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Both types will produce good buds its all about growing style each person has their own way... I've got alternating nodes on two of my plants but no preflowers yet.. kinda wondering when they'll show sex.


----------



## sMACkaddict

I've read several times, somewhere on MP, that some strains or whatever won't show until you flip them.  You could use a black plastic bag over one branch to simulate 12/12 or just flower a clone to sex it if you arent ready to flip.

sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

Okay guys thanks for the responses.  The GH3 part is a little cheaper then the FF stuff so I might try that first?

On a brighter note.  The lights will be here Monday.  20,000 lumen T5's.  Perfect for my 6 square foot area!


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

You may not get that full 6ft coverage since you will want to keep those lights right on top of your plants. Are you getting those T5's from HTG? 

Thanks smack I'll let it get a little bigger and attempt my first try at cloning.


----------



## growgreen420

Yep.  Ordered from HTG.  They will be here Monday.  Right now...at best I am seeing 900 lumens per square foot with my current lights.  So it will be a huge setup, that's for sure.  And I have my HPS 400w all ready to go for when flowering comes around.  

Next thing to do it get that 4" inline fan you showed me, Silver Bullet.  That one will work perfect with my 4" duct work.  After that just figure out if I want to go organic or chem ferts and watch these beauties grow!


----------



## growgreen420

I got to say.  People on this forum are some of the nicest people I have meant on forums.  Other forums (car forums in particular) everyone is very hostile.  So thanks for such a great community that is provided here on MP!


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

I wasnt thinking right this morning :stoned: lol you should be able to get 6sq ft(2'x3') out of your light once it is raised...

 Get your self a speed controller(just search it on that site they have a $20 one that I'm getting) with your fan so you can run that fan at half power and it will last you longer, less fan noise, and still exhaust your air twice per minute at half speed. 

Yeah this forum rocks! Its one of the reasons why I joined this one... I was forum hunting before I joined here and everyone on the other forums seems like they just wanted to ridicule people that didnt know anything. There is a college worth of wisdom here.

I just placed my light order for the same light today, and got my GH3+calmag nutes in the mail today.


----------



## growgreen420

Nice, Bro!  I will probably go with the same nutes.  My local hydro store carries them along with FF stuff, too.  

And yeah I saw that speed controller today.  I will be getting that along with the 4" inline fan here in a week or so.

Not to go against what anyone said... but I tried CO2 this week... well, long story short (not that it is long haha).  The plants shot up over 5 inches in 2 days.  To me that's saying something.  Never saw them grow this fast before in such a short amount of time.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

If you do keep doing co2 (i may be wrong) but you'll need stronger lights and you will find you will need to feed more nutes.


----------



## Hushpuppy

You can certainly use CO2 if you have it, why not. The thing is that using the CO2 causes you to have to adjust everything to account for it. If you had the level of ventilation that you need for that grow then you most likely would not have seen as big a difference. You can use it as it will give results, if you can make everything else work with it without it becoming more of a headache than its worth. My Bro has a very "contained" grow that does well but I have told him multiple times that he needs either more intake air into the space to give fresh air, or get the CO2 injector system to increase the level of CO2 in the space and he would see bumper crops, but he's too hard-headed to listen to me. :angrywife:

If you have it, and you can make it work, by all means use it


----------



## growgreen420

Thanks guys!  Yeah I will continue using it and see what happens.  Lights will be there soon so so that will help out greatly.  I will keep u all posted!


----------



## Hick

"shooting up" is NOT necessarily a _'good'_ thing. Stretching between nodes is not beneficial indoors. It means fewer bud sites closer to the light source. U[ward growth does not always mean 'more' growth. 
co2 can enhance a grow, but it also requires a 'controlled' environment, more light/lumens p/sq/ft, higher temps, and more nutrients to compensate.


----------



## growgreen420

I should restate.  There was no, as to what I can tell, more spacing between nodes.  Just normal growth but was faster than in the past.  I will eventually be gettin the controller that controls light, co2: fans, humidity, temperature etc... In the future.  For now I am just seeing what works best.


----------



## growgreen420

Update:

I think at least one of my plants is showing a deficiency?   What do you think?

Also I accidentally broke off a leaf.  Should I worry?


----------



## growgreen420

Time to get some nutes?


----------



## Hick

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> Update:
> 
> I think at least one of my plants is showing a deficiency?   What do you think?
> 
> Also I accidentally broke off a leaf.  Should I worry?



pics show new growth, but no pistil yet..
"A" leaf... naaaaa not consequential
"I" wouldn't rush the nutes, not until your real light gets rolling anyway. It's tough to tell from pics, but "I" don't see a serious deff' yet. It's a LOT easier to add nutes than it is to get them out


----------



## growgreen420

Okay thank you.  I will just continue what I am doing and see where to go from there.


----------



## growgreen420

The first pic shows a leaf with a little yellowing around the edges.  That is what made me think that was a sign of deficiency...


----------



## Hushpuppy

That little bit of yellowing may actually be a result of the co2/nutrient/light ballance that Hick is talking about. Whenever you increase one of the growing variables for the plants, the plants will react and what ever is weakest in the line of variables will show up as an imballance which can cause a bit of deficiency or growth pattern change.

The bigger leaves is just the phenotype expression of the indica side of the hybrid. Typically, Sativa has long narrow leaf fronds, and the indica has shorter, wider leaf fronds. With the hybridizing of the 2 types, you can see the experssion of traits from both sides come out at different times. I have plants that come from the same clone mother (Blueberry Punch) that have shown a good bit of variation in the leaf patterns and a few other traits as well, but the overall plant is fairly stable.


----------



## Misses_growngreen420

The plants are looking good!    We are going to start doing nutes once the new lights get here.  We are still trying to decide either organic or chem.... not sure why it is such a tough decision.  We would rather go organic but the chem GH3 part is much cheaper....


----------



## growgreen420

Just picked up some FF nutes so I will be ready to dose when the time comes.


----------



## Hushpuppy

I am doing both because I love to try new things and see if I can stand the challenge. And it is very challenging to do both at the same time. To me the chem/hydro is easier to do but takes more work, while the organic is more difficult to manage but is less work to do.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Nutes are nutes.. both will produce depending on feeding. Organic nutes i believe need to still be broken down by the microbes in the soil. Chemical nutes have already been broken down called "chelated". Non organic nutes can create a salt build up over gime which is why some people flush when they get problems.


----------



## growgreen420

I just kind of like the idea of the organic nutes because... well... they are organic lol.

We will see how it goes.  If it doesn't go too well then I will try something else next time.


----------



## sMACkaddict

there's the spirit!

sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

Quick question.

When I start dosing FF nutes can I mix them together and dose at the same time?

Like this week it would call for Big Bloom and Tiger Bloom.  Can I mix the two and dose at the same time or should I wait a couple days in between and should I flush in between dosing?


----------



## growgreen420

Should I use the FF sledgehammer flush?  Or would water be just as good?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Flushing agents sold by companies are a waste of money in my opinion. No you never want to flush unless you have a problem with your plants. If you need to flush you use 3 times the volume of your pot (example 3 gallon pot you would use 9 gallons of clean water run through your pot) then you let it dry out completely before reapplying nutes.

The purpose of flushing is to wash the soil of the salt build up and nutes to give you a good soil to use again. Some flush before going into flower.

Flushing between nutes would defeat the purpose of feeding at all. Yes you mix them together but make sure you mix it right. With GH3 part you have to add one part into the water stir it around then add the other one and stir and then the last one. NEVER add concentrates together before adding it into the water it will create a lockout. After your nutes are added wait an hour check the ph and adjust the ph accordingly with PH up or Down.

I recommend going to foxfarms site and looking for how to use and mix their nutes and get a feeding schedule and start it at 1/4th-1/2 strength of what they say and working up gradually from there and you dont feed every watering.


----------



## growgreen420

Thanks!  I was planning on doing about half strength on the nutes.  I was just unsure if I can mix two separate nutes together into the same 1 gallon jug of distilled water or if I had to do two separate 1 gallon jugs of distilled water.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Nope youll be good and from what I've recently been reading distilled water isnt good to use and spring water should be used instead.... I'm still on the toss up of that because distilled water shouldnt have any dissolved solids in the water and is the purest.


----------



## growgreen420

I haven't seen any issues (not that I know of) from distilled water.  Not sure how good of an idea it would be to switch water sources half way through the grow?  I might go RO water in the future?


----------



## sMACkaddict

Not sure for distilled, which i think is good, but RO water isnt something you want to start using without understanding the consequences. RO water has nothing in it, at all. What happens, i think, is It will strip all the nutrients out of your soil if you dont add anything to the water. Make sure to do your research before making a change like that. 

sMACk


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Yeah until I get more time to do research into distilled and RO water I'll stick to spring water and be safe. RO water has scared me since I read a little bit... good for drinking but not sure about plants.


----------



## growgreen420

So should I only dose the FF nutes once a week and then just water the other days?


----------



## sMACkaddict

I can't tell you exactly how often to feed, but start slow and build up no matter what you do.

have fun!

sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

Okay thanks for all the advice!


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

I think there are some misconceptions here regarding distilled and RO water.  There is no problem with using either distilled or RO water.  Both have simply undergone processes to remove dissolved solids in the water--there is really not much difference in them, except that  distilled water is purer than RO water, which will probably still have some dissolved solids in it.  Distilled water is absolutely pure.  For many people, tap water is just fine--I use tap water with no problems whatsoever.


----------



## sMACkaddict

no one said problems, just considerations.


sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

It's just that distilled water can get expensive over time.  It's 79 cents a gallon for ro water at my local fish store. Hmm....


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

You can buy distilled water here for 49c a gallon at walmart I believe. My well water smells horrible of sulfur(sp) and is no where near clear because of the decaying mater in it still (I just had a 4 point well system put in and still needs to flush out just haven't had time) so I've been using gallon spring water (my tap water isnt exactly clean here either). 

I fed one plant 1/4th strength today; next feeding I'll bump up to half strength and then maybe 2/3rds, not sure just depends. Have you gotten your light yet Growgreen? I should have mine wednesday.


----------



## sMACkaddict

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> I fed one plant 1/4th strength today; next feeding I'll bump up to half strength and then maybe 2/3rds, not sure just depends. Have you gotten your light yet Growgreen? I should have mine wednesday.



when you gonna put some pics up of those plants?

sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

Yep mine got delivered today but won't be able to put them in until Friday.  I had them shipped to another location (not the grow site for obvious reasons) and I will be grabbing them Friday to put them in.  

First dosing will be tomorrow.  I think I am going to start out at 1/2 strength and see what that does.


----------



## growgreen420

It says feed two times per week for FF.  Would it be alright if I just fed once a week for now at half the recommended amount?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Yeah that will be fine, and I have everything shipped to my house. The police cant scan every single package and they arent trying to unless there is a tip off. I wouldnt want my stuff sitting at someone elses house to get stolen damaged or broken lol.  But least you're trying to be safe about it.

My plant is liking the 1/4th strength it's leaves started getting bigger finally.


----------



## growgreen420

Nice!  I am excited to get these nutes going!


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

sMACkaddict said:
			
		

> when you gonna put some pics up of those plants?
> 
> sMACk


 
Just posted up new pics of my plants.

http://marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=794262#post794262


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> Yep mine got delivered today but won't be able to put them in until Friday.  I had them shipped to another location (not the grow site for obvious reasons) and I will be grabbing them Friday to put them in.
> 
> First dosing will be tomorrow.  I think I am going to start out at 1/2 strength and see what that does.



Contrary to what you think, it is safer to have things delivered to your home than to tell others you are growing.  I personally always have everything delivered to my house.  You now have at least one person who knows about your grow and has probably already to others that you had seeds delivered to his house.  You are far, far safer having things delivered to your home than telling others you are growing.  In over 30 years of growing, I have never even heard of anyone getting busted because they had stuff shipped to their homes.  On the other hand, most everyone I know that has gotten busted has been because they told others.

I would start at 1/4 strength nutes.  What FF nutes are you using?


----------



## growgreen420

I ship to my parents house.  I am big into cars and always order car parts and have them get shipped there.  I told them about it and told them it is car parts.  There r a few ppl who know about the grow.  We also didn't order seeds online.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Rule number one TELL NO ONE. People can be your friend one day and flip the next. If you get in an argument one day they have something against you to ruin the rest of your life. My closest friends I've been to hell(excuse the language) and back with and have known for at least 7 years don't even know. I get all my excitement of talking about it by doing so here on the forum.


----------



## growgreen420

This was before I knew anything.  But I am barely around the grow.  I am over 2 hours away from it.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

The people that know I would just tell them your plants died and you are unable to start up just to keep it quiet. How heavy is that light you got (the T5) I should be getting mine in tomorrow on the UPS tracking. I got the rope ratchets with the light.


----------



## growgreen420

Lol I just did.  I was like "the guy that I was growing with got too sketched out and took the plants down." He straight up believes me too cause I don't lie to him.  And i am not sure how much it weighs.  On ups it says the package weighs 20 pounds so I am assuming 15-20 pounds.... Idk.... Maybe I should just take down the whole grow op????


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

The lights are quite light.  You won't have any trouble using the rope ratchets with the T5.  You are going to love them.

(Shame on you for having seeds sent to your parents house without their knowledge or consent  :doh::hitchair::hairpull::angrywife


----------



## growgreen420

Lol my gf picked up seeds from one of her friends who grows. 

But... now no one knows about our grow since we told the people who knew, that we are not growing anymore.  They were like "what the heck?"  haha.  I guess they are a little upset.  Oh well.  I feel a little better now but who knows who they told????


----------



## growgreen420

Yeah I can't wait to get these lights setup.  There will be a HUGE difference over the current lights and I bet the growth will be a lot better especially since we are dosing FF nutes and Co2


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

I will have mine up tomorrow and I'll post up some pics on my grow room thread.  I look forward to see how these new lights do right now I have some chicken wire to hold lights above my plants and I have to raise the screen every two days lol.

 Now the pic I attached, of course is, temporary. Just thought it would be funny to share. If you don't mind I can throw up a pic of my finished veg area tomorrow on this thread. There is 4 total 23W 1600 Lumen bulbs that white foam stuff has reflective backing on it that I just got for blocking out the closet door cracks and vents at night when I'm sleeping.

Good thinking about the grow thing if they told anyone you're growing they will tell people that you aren't now. When harvest time comes if they were customers or patients just tell them you are getting it from someone you know if they are trying to find out the source.


----------



## growgreen420

Setup looks good.  

Wanna hear sonwthing funny... Well maybe... But I don't smoke.  Haha.  I tried it a couple times but that's it.  I just find growing really fascinating with everything that goes into it.


----------



## growgreen420

What is this all about?

Humidity: 57%
Temp: 80 F

My gf got some sticks and they are now standing back up so let's hope that helps.  Must not of been enough air movement?


----------



## growgreen420

I think I need bigger pots, too?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

That myfriend looks like massive stretch and your plant's stems arent strong enough to hold up the plant. I have a feeling it's from your CO2 with out upgrading your lights. 

With light properties there is an inverse square law. Say you have a light at 16 lumens at 1 foot away, when you move that light 2 feet away from you then you are only receiving 4 lumens you move the light 3 feet away you will only get 1 lumen of the total 16 you started with.  That's why T5's are the way to go because you can put them right on the plant. 

There is a difference between stretching and growing, stretching is lengthening the distance between nodes with no new growth. Growing is popping new nodes closer together while acheiving the same height.

You can see in my picture of my "thai" (LOL it appears to be more indica so I may have mixed up my labeling)  the nodes are much closer together than what yor plants are showing. This plant is 39 days from breaking surface from seed. I havent done anything but give this plant water in FFOF soil with 4 23W 1600 CFL's on it. Your CO2 probably caused this stretch from over stimulaiting the plant making it get too much primary "growth"(stretch) rather than thickening up it's stem. The black circles mark my nodes on the main stem, compare it to your plants and notice the difference since our plants are similar in age.

Those pots will be fine I'm growing in 3 gallon pots from start to finish.


----------



## growgreen420

Yep I see what you mean.  Just two more days until the new T5's go in so that will probably solve my problem(s).

First time grower... what can you expect lol.  All I know is that I have learned so much already and the mistakes I made this grow will be turned into lessons learned for my next grow which should go a lot smoother.  Still not sure about the Co2.  I will probably try it for one more week after I get the new lights and see what happens then... if nothing really significant then I will probably stop putting Co2 in.

Other than that, thanks for your response again Silver Bullet.  You have been a great help/resource throughout my grow so far.


----------



## growgreen420

Oh and the pots I have them in right now are, I think, 1/2 gallon pots....


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Yup not a problem I've been doing a ton of research(the majority of my learning has been from this site and its wonderful members) for my first grow since I've had ample time to do so before getting everything to start a grow. I would just scrap the CO2 and work on keeping your ventillation strong and steady once you get that new fan up and going. Hopefully your plants will come back you might want to stake up the limp ones.


----------



## growgreen420

I want to get some mesh, like the black stuff you have, and let the plants grow through that... is that a good idea?

And will I need to upgrade pots?  They are 1/2 gallon pots right now I think??


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

T5s are still not going to give you enough light (little over 3000 lumens per sq ft) to benefit from the CO2.  You might want to read up some more on CO2 enhancement and see what is required to make it beneficial.

I'm with The Silver Bullet on the stretch.  You need more light, adequate ventilation and an oscillating fan in there to move things around.  Plants that stretch have fewer bud sites and thereby fewer buds.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

The black stuff is coated chicken wire you can get a roll 2'wide x25' long for $20 at homedepot its what I'm using if LST doesnt work out on my plants and I will go with a scrog/semi scrog set up. Alot of people use screen for support but I would get a screen with bigger holes than what I have and you will need to do a little searching on how to grow through a screen.


----------



## growgreen420

Lights are here.  I have A LOT of air movement... 4 fans inside moving air and I am picking up a better exhaust fan this weekend.

Probably will ditch the CO2.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

If you're in 1/2 gallon pots you can go ahead and transplant into 3 gallon pots if you use FFOF again you bought yourself another 3-4 weeks you wont have to feed.


----------



## growgreen420

The biggest I can go is 2 gallon pots ...  That's the biggest size I can fit in my grow tent :/.  Will 2 gallon pots be okay?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Theres members here that crank out killer plants in one gallon pots (Hamster Lewis) check out his grows. So yes 2 gallon pots will do fine too. I like 3 gallon because my screen set up will fit in the bottom of it to move it. 

It will let me veg a litle longer since with my set up I will have 2 months of veg time in between flowering. I only have one flower room and I'd like to keep plants in veg to clone so when I harvest I cut clones make them root and then send the old ones into flower. 

I plan on growing 2-4 plants in my tiny 2'x5.5' area and make like a sea of green(SOG) from LSTing my plants or SCROG. with a veg time as long as I'm thinking I'll have theres a chance I'll have to step up to 5 gallon buckets only time will tell how root bound they will get.

 I'm not sure how or if smart pots get root bound since the roots prune themselves when they reach the side of the pot. (Oh forgot to mention when I start in on my known genetics I recently ordered I will be growing in 3 gallon smart pots) you might want to look into them they give you a noticably(sp) better plant than regular pots.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Well grow green I hope your light came in better than mine.... I have a broken bulb one out of 4 isnt bad I expected one to break... got to love UPS lol.  I wonder if anywhere local sells these bulbs I'll have look into that. 

Hemp can I run this fixture with only 3 bulbs like T8 fixtures run with a bulb out.

I still cannot believe the difference in brightness from those 4 little dinky 1600 lumen 23W bulbs to just two of these T5's


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> Well grow green I hope your light came in better than mine.... I have a broken bulb one out of 4 isnt bad I expected one to break... got to love UPS lol.  I wonder if anywhere local sells these bulbs I'll have look into that.
> 
> Hemp can I run this fixture with only 3 bulbs like T8 fixtures run with a bulb out.
> 
> I still cannot believe the difference in brightness from those 4 little dinky 1600 lumen 23W bulbs to just two of these T5's



You will be able to run 2.  I always try to have extra bulbs on hand.  When I first ordered mine, my tubes arrived just fine.  However, I forgot I had the ceiling fan on in my bedroom....I pulled one of the tubes up and out of the box....right into the blades of the ceiling fan....I vacuumed for hours trying to get every little tiny shard.


----------



## growgreen420

Sorry to hear about the broken bulbs I hope mine came in well.  I will be able to check in two days.

And I will check into those pots to see what they are all about.  Thanks!


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> You will be able to run 2.  I always try to have extra bulbs on hand.  When I first ordered mine, my tubes arrived just fine.  However, I forgot I had the ceiling fan on in my bedroom....I pulled one of the tubes up and out of the box....right into the blades of the ceiling fan....I vacuumed for hours trying to get every little tiny shard.


 
Yeah it was like cleaning up sand when I opened the bulb box LOL. I sent them an email but if they don't send an extra bulb I know it's not their fault I'll just order some and I'll have an extra one on hand then. 

Well here is my new cleaner, and better lit veg closet! Very excited and happy with these lights even if the bulb was busted lol.  The first pic is just one side of how things are put up in the closet I have two 2' 2x4's to cross the width of the closet and a 6ft long 2x4 to cross the top.


----------



## growgreen420

The lights look really good!   Hope you get a new tube soon so you can run all four lights! 

How much do you think the whole unit weighs?


----------



## growgreen420

I will have to pick up some light hangers this weekend as I didn't order any with the light.  

What carbon filter would you recommend?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

I don't really even know what carbon filter I'm going to use yet. Hushpuppy suggested me this one hxxp://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/inch-triple-layer-singlepass-charcoal-fiber-filter-p-2365.html . If you are using a 4inch duct they have a cheaper 4inch model too.

 He said the trick to these are to back wash with water when you go to wash them (these are the only washable and water washable carbon filters I've seen). Since my space isnt all that big this, if it works, will be great as it will attach right to my hood vent pipe. Just wash after a month or after every grow. If I go with these I'm going to get two of them so when I one is dirty the other one is ready to go up while I clean it.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Also HTG gave me a really fast response and said they would put a replacement bulb in the mail today for me. That won me over as a customer for them.


----------



## growgreen420

Nice I will have to look into those filters!  And glad to here the good news about htg .Makes me feel a little better about ordering from them.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Yupp and ehh the light weights probably 10 lbs not even its hard for me to tell since it's kind of odd to hold


----------



## Hushpuppy

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> I don't really even know what carbon filter I'm going to use yet. Hushpuppy suggested me this one hxxp://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/inch-triple-layer-singlepass-charcoal-fiber-filter-p-2365.html . If you are using a 4inch duct they have a cheaper 4inch model too.
> 
> He said the trick to these are to back wash with water when you go to wash them (these are the only washable and water washable carbon filters I've seen). Since my space isnt all that big this, if it works, will be great as it will attach right to my hood vent pipe. Just wash after a month or after every grow. If I go with these I'm going to get two of them so when I one is dirty the other one is ready to go up while I clean it.


I definitely like these filters so far. I ordered a couple more to have for spares for swapping out. I have used the same 2 for 2 flowering phases now and can't smell a thing through them. And one of them I used on my drying cabinet when I had it packed full of bud and no smell came through, so I am quite happy with them


----------



## growgreen420

I might have to try one of those filters.  How long do you think one would last?   Or is that kind of hard to know?

Are there any DIY carbon filters on here I can read about?  I was also thinking of going in this direction as well?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

DIY's dont work as well as a bought one. These filters will last probably a year or more as long as you wash it out correctly.


----------



## Hushpuppy

yeah, I agree. I made a couple DIY filters but they just didn't work as well because I couldn't get the proper airflow through them and get good air scrubbing ability. That is why I bought these filters. They are also very light which makes them super easy to attach to the light fixtures and fit nice an snuggly so that no air gets by without passing through the filter. I have cooltubes which are pretty light in comparrison to the vented hoods, and the filters attach right to the end of the tubes without making them hang awkard from the extra weight or size.

I am hazarding a guess here as they don't really say because there are too many factors that affect the filter life, but I would think they should last for at least 24months of usage under normal conditions.


----------



## growgreen420

Awesome!  I now know what to get.  Picking one up this weekend.


----------



## growgreen420

Okay guys here is an update of the garden:

Got the carbon filter
New 4" inline exhaust fan
New lights
New oscillating fan
(not shown) 2 gallon pots

This thing got a make over!

Plants are in a little bit of a rough state right now with bumping them through out this whole process.  And I put the new lights in last night, before I go the new fan, and the temp got up to 95 DEGREES!!!! :hairpull: 

So this morning they were all laying down and the soil was bone dry!  I supported them back up, watered them and got the new fan in and the temp is holding steady at 75 degrees....

In the last pic.... is this normal to have all these dead, fallen off, leaves?  Some fell off from me poking around in there.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

You don't need a carbon filter until you flower.  You can get that light about an inch or two above you plants. You were getting up to 95 degreese with those 3 lights?!? Or with your new light? My light runs cooler than my 4 cfls. You look like you're having some sort of deficiency on your 2nd picture on your back plants.


----------



## growgreen420

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> You don't need a carbon filter until you flower.  You can get that light about an inch or two above you plants. You were getting up to 95 degreese with those 3 lights?!? Or with your new light? My light runs cooler than my 4 cfls. You look like you're having some sort of deficiency on your 2nd picture on your back plants.




Yeah I am playing around with the FF ferts...  I did 1/2 the amount and might have to up it?

It was getting up to 95 degrees with the new light (same as yours).

The reason I got the carbon filter is because it was smelling BAD (Really strong MJ smell is the house).  But that is gone now 

I will lower the lights a bit, then.  They burn my hand when I touch them, though?  Like, it hurts, lol.


----------



## growgreen420

I have, I think, 4 different types of plants in my garden.  Some are doing really well and some types are a lot harder to control... as in ferts, watering and stuff.    They are a lot more picky.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Your leaves shouldnt touch the bulbs but an inch or so away is fine. Thats crazy I only have one oscillating fan in a space that is 2'x4'x8 and I never get temps above 76 but it's in a vented closet not a tent. If you think your plants smell bad now wait till flowering lol. How many females have you gotten so far out of your bunch? I just got another confirmed female today . Hopefully you can fix your nute problem I dont know what it could be.

Make sure you change that prefilter (white cloth around it) every 30 days.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

Like The Silver Bullet mentioned, do not use your filter until you need it--it cuts down substantially on the efficiency of your fan.  If you have negative pressure in your space, this will most likely take care of the smell.


----------



## growgreen420

The guy I talked to said this fan setup took off 20 cfms from the fan.  So I went from 170 to 150 with the filter on.  Still good.  And I have a vacuum (no such thing as negative pressure, lol ), in the tent.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

I don't mean to argue but negative pressure = less pressure than the surrounding area which is a vaccume. Its up to you whether you use your filter now or not but you wont be getting your money's worth because it will wear out faster(the activated carbon will clog up faster) and not filter as good when flowering comes.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> The guy I talked to said this fan setup took off 20 cfms from the fan.  So I went from 170 to 150 with the filter on.  Still good.  And I have a vacuum (no such thing as negative pressure, lol ), in the tent.



LOL--of course there is such a thing as negative pressure.  A vacuum is, technically, a space devoid of matter.

Don't believe all that grow store salespeople tell you.  There is really no upside to using your filter before you need it and several downsides.


----------



## sMACkaddict

All growgreen is trying to say is that, TECHNICALLY, the term "negative pressure" is not correct.  The pressure inside the system, or grow room/closet/whatever, is just lower than the pressure outside the system, not negative.

But yea, everyone knows what you mean when you say negative pressure... no need to nitpick!

sMACk


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Like a low pressure system in the atmosphere?


----------



## sMACkaddict

yea, thats an example, but weather is too complicated haha 

I meant the term "system" generically, like any enclosed environment basically.

sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

Lol u guys.  Anyways.  It smells in the house but with the filter on the snell is gone.  If a filter can last me a grow... Then I am happy lol.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Moving the air should just be enough to get rid of the smell where are you exhausting to? outside or back into the home if so you'll need ot leave the door to the room your tent is open to keep the air fresh that's being taken into your tent. How much was that filter and what are the dimensions anyways?


----------



## growgreen420

Yep.  We are exhausting back into the room because that is the only way unless we cut a hole in the wall and we can't do that. Fan was $105 and filter was like $85.  The filter is a 4" and is 20" long.  The fan is the brand hurricane and the filter is the brand phresh.


----------



## growgreen420

Normal atmospheric pressure is 14.7 psi at sea level.  On our gauges we call 14.7 psi, 0 psi.  Anything below 0 psi is vacuum and anything above 0 is pressure.  Negative pressure is terminology incorrect because that is what the term vacuum stands for.  It's kind of confusing at first.  Now if we didn't set 14.7 psi as our 0 then anything under 14.7 psi is still pressure unless it drops below 0 psi at sea level.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

When you go to into flowering im curious on how phresh filters preform


----------



## growgreen420

Well we transplanted as much as we could (ran out of space in the tent and not sure what to do).  Well, it is clear that we need to get rid of some plants 

And I will keep you informed on how the filter works when they go into flowering.  So far, as much as I can tell, all the plants are females.

Does anyone want any free MJ plants?  lol.  I can only fit 6 in my grow tent, now .  But they needed to be transplanted... they were maxed out in those pots.... so many roots it was crazy with no where to go.  Now they should shoot up some more and get some more height out of them and then we can go into flowering soon.  I figure another 2 solid weeks of veg then flowering time?  Any thoughts on this?  You can see how big the plants are in the pictures.


----------



## growgreen420

Looks like I am going to have to get rid of a couple plants, huh?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

Get rid of your plants with the most stretch(space between nodes) I can fit 4 in 3 gallon pots under this light. You want to keep your plants height down with as much internodal spacing (is that the right terminology guys?) as possible.

 You might want to LST (Low Stress Train) them by tying them down. If you don't know what that is I'll post a pic on here of my plant tomorrow I LST'd. Having your plants on top of your light may heat up the root ball a little more than you'll want. It will help your plants bush out more and keep height down.

I believe that when it's time to flip to flowering that a plant can get 2 -4 times bigger than it's veg height. This will depend on type (sativa or indica), pheno type, and strain type. I have a feeling that my biggest sativa plant will be a nice yeilder (if everything goes according to plan) since it will undergo another month of veg and it's pretty big now. It will also take a few grows to dial in your settings on your room.


----------



## growgreen420

That's what I was thinking... Get rid of the ones that have the most stretch.  I also noticed, the other day when the plants fell over because of the heat, that one plant has a really good kink in the main stem and not sure how it is still live?  I will probably get rid of that one too and the one that has the nute issue/burning leaves.  Some of my plants are super good with nodes that are really close.  

And yeah, can you post a pic of LST plants?  I don't know what this is, exactly.


----------



## Hushpuppy

LST (low stress training) is any type of training that the plant doesn't have to heal itself from. HST (high stress training) the plant has to heal itself. supercropping, topping, Fim, are all HST techniques. Bending and tieing the branches or whole plant is LST. I would Top all of the plants that have more than 3 leaf nodes as that will cause them to develop double colas. I would say Fim them but you don't have a lot of space and fim causes them to bush out. Fim is great if you have low ceiling heights but plenty of floor space. Here is a LarryOG Kush that I topped then Fimmed then tied the branches with garden wire tie. You can get this stuff in a spool from Lowes garden center or any store that has a decent garden center will probably carry it. It is very useful for all kinds of things. The first pic is the plant before tieing it down but after I Topped it. You can see the double cola. The second pic is after all the training. I did this because I only have the 1 girl and I wanted to get some cuttings before flowering her. She is about 8weeks old


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

:yeahthat:


----------



## growgreen420

Sweet!  That's pretty cool.  I don't think I would have enough space in my tent for this, though...?


----------



## growgreen420

Should I top the plant that I want to clone?  And should I clone a couple weeks before flowering?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

What I'm going to do when I get ready to clone is clone 10-14 days before I flip to flower to give some clones time to root so I know I'll have that plant around still. Clones are said yo be the easiest to root if taken from the lower parts of the plant and the hardest at the top of the plant. I'm guessing if you top the plant and make it more even throughout the plant it would be better (plus you'll get more clones from a topped plant).

A book that you might want to check out (but dont take everything it says to heart I've found some facts disprooved by it here on people's grow journals) is "Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor/Outdoor Medical Grower's Bible" By Jorge Cervantes it has alot of good basic information, it is a bit dated but has the basics so I could understand more of what I was talking about on here. I got it at Barnes and Nobel for $30.


----------



## growgreen420

Okay.  I have been looking around for a book that I could read.  Sounds like I found one lol


----------



## growgreen420

Got my first 100% confirmed female plant just now!  .  I am going to look at the others to see if I can't figure out if they are male or female.  Also, my nodes are started to grow irregular... So that is also a sign they are getting ready to go into the flowering stage?  I want to veg for at least another 2 weeks.


----------



## growgreen420

These new lights are really kickig ***!  Lol


----------



## growgreen420

I take that back.  I have, 2, confirmed females.  The other plants are not showing their sex yet.  I hope within a week I can sex all the plants and get rid of any males.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

You can veg as long as you want and yes alternating nodes show a sign of sexual maturity and are ready to flower when you want. If you're thinking bout cloning now is the time I would try it so you got some time for those clones to root before you throw em into flower.

PS when I asked HTG if they would send me one replacement bulb they sent two so I have an extra now, they found a solid customer from now on, and my plants love this light!


----------



## growgreen420

Yeah I have two broken lights... they are lose from the socket but still work?  I have 3 confirmed females now.  I am hoping some more plants will start to show their sex soon because I hope I will have a couple more females out of 10 plants.  I would think they would all have shown their sex by now?  I mean I think the other ones are males but it's so hard to tell right now.  I see the little "ball" things but the females have that and have the hairs but the other ones don't have the hairs?  Well... kinda... I don't know... The balls are kinda splitting like the evident females are before the hairs come out.  I am not sure?  I don't want to throw them out if they are not for sure males but I don't want to keep them and risk them pollinating the females.... ugh lol


----------



## sMACkaddict

as long as you are keeping a close watch on them, you will be able to tell they are males for sure before they drop pollen... so dont fret, and if you aren't sure, just upload a pic and one of the many experienced people on this forum will be happy to help you

sMACk


----------



## growgreen420

Thanks sMACK.  Once this movie is over I will get some pics up lol... well we have yet to start it haha. 

But I must say, the plants are looking SO GOOD!  Nodes are less than 2 inches apart now... growing really fast... no signs of deficiencies... the little white hairs (females) are everywhere!  Even on the branches lol.... okay rant over haha.  Just really happy to see these plants really fill out since we got the lights up.


----------



## gourmet

I can always identify the females but it takes me longer to id the males.  
And I always worry I won't catch the males in time but I always do.  Guess that is because sMackaddict is right on...


----------



## growgreen420

Don't have my laptop charger so can't upload pics righy now .  What is the best medium to plant clones in?


----------



## growgreen420

I was thinking rockwool with an humidity dome?


----------



## HemperFi

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> I was thinking rockwool with an humidity dome?



Many experts rave about Rockwool. It must be good, but I'm going to stay with RapidRooter plugs -- I get near 100% success with them. I have tried Rockwool, but I don't even like the feel of the stuff -- just me...

Peace


----------



## growgreen420

Yeah I think I am going to try rockwool.

Also I think I am going to go into flowering in a week.

I will have some updated pictures up this weekend.  I promise lol


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

I also prefer rapid rooters.  If you use rockwool, make sure you pre-soak the cubes in water pH'd to about 5.5.


----------



## growgreen420

Ok thank you!


----------



## growgreen420

What about this for clones?

hxxp://www.midwesthydroponics.com/seed-starting/starter-cubes-soils/rockwool-seed-starter-kit.html


----------



## growgreen420

There are some very healthy "branches" near the bottom of the plant.  Can I take these and clone these?  They are in super good health and want to clone them lol.


----------



## animal454

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> There are some very healthy "branches" near the bottom of the plant.  Can I take these and clone these? l.



Yup..Bottom cuttings clone just fine.
Good luck.


----------



## growgreen420

Thanks.  How far along is your grow silver bullet?


----------



## growgreen420

Please help ID the sex of this plant!!!!  I have 10 plants, 3 confirmed females and not sure about the rest.  I need to get rid of some plants to make room for the growth please look at the pic.  My guess it is a male!? I have about an hour until I get rid of all the male plants so I need to make sure they are indeed males before I get rid of them.


----------



## Hushpuppy

Is that your best example? That one is a bit tricky. I am thinking male but I wouldn't swear to it. I would say to let it stay but keep a close eye for another 5-8days and it should tell better which way it swings. If the others have shown well enough to tell then this should tell well before it becomes a danger. On the chance that I have another female, I am willing to feed one for another week to be sure.


----------



## growgreen420

Okay thanks.  I will keep them around for a little longer to see.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess

I'm thinking it is looking boyish, too.  However it is a little early to tell.  I would give it several days as Hushpuppy mentioned.


----------



## growgreen420

It's just a little strange, at least I think, that the 3 confirmed females have been showing for nearly 3 weeks now and these other ones aren't yet....


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

I still have one plant that is still not showing either... I'm guessing they're shy lol.


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> Thanks.  How far along is your grow silver bullet?


 
I'm going good I've been away with a hard drive failure on my computer. I'm having some problems with my plants I just updated my thread.


----------



## tastyness

HemperFi said:
			
		

> Many experts rave about Rockwool. It must be good, but I'm going to stay with RapidRooter plugs -- I get near 100% success with them. I have tried Rockwool, but I don't even like the feel of the stuff -- just me...
> 
> Peace



I agree re: Rockwool.  They were the two that didn't make it during my experiment.
I did four methods and compared them all.  Coco Cups work well if you don't already have a dome - because you don't need to buy one.
Coco pucks had second best success rate.  
Now that they are 3 weeks old you can't really tell any difference.  
So go with what works for you.


----------



## sMACkaddict

*tasty - what are coco cups?*

sMACk


----------



## tastyness

Here is the thread (should be a sticky IMHO)
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42786

You can use other medium- I used coco because I can't get un-nuted soil.
Also holds water well.
I also used a clear cup inside of solo cup (to keep roots from lights) so it was easy to see when the roots were out.

Also check my threads in propagation for pic's and results.


----------



## growgreen420

Well I just have no more room in the grow tent so I need to get rid of the boyish looking plants....  I have 3 females so I will focus on those now and get some clones going, as well.  

I just really hope I am not throwing away females that haven't shown, yet :/. 

Oh and a couple day ago one plants touched the t5 lights and fried a bunch of leaves.  Will the affect anything?  Will the plant still grow well?


----------



## The Silver Bullet Special

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> Oh and a couple day ago one plants touched the t5 lights and fried a bunch of leaves.  Will the affect anything?  Will the plant still grow well?


 
Nah thats just a little burn you want to avoid heat burn or "heat stress"  while flowering. Some mornings when I wake up my plants will be bumped up to the bulb. I just raise the light and see if my fans need adjusted and they keep on growin away without problems.

 I'm just a little confused as to why I have a burn on my plants in the middle, I'm thinking either lockout or too strong of nutes I've been feeding 1/2 but last time I fed 3/4th because I was lacking N with gh3 part. My plants sure drink up the water fast 1/2gallon every two days.


----------



## growgreen420

I have noticed this too on my plants.  I was feeding at 1/2 strength but some leaves look like the leaves you have in your pictures.  I am now feeding 1/3 to see if that helps at all.


----------



## growgreen420

Is it safe to say I can expect the plants to double in height during flowering?


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## The Silver Bullet Special

They will forsure get bigger how much bigger is hard to tell... I'm going to be growing 3-4 plants that will probably completely fill a 2'x5.5' space and their veg time will be 8-12 weeks for how ever long it takes to flower.  I'm going to take clones and wait for them to root then while the mother plants are flowering their babies will be growing. This isnt with my current plants I'm just going to grow those out. I will take clones of my satori and white widow or an indica strain for my second choice.


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## growgreen420

Thanks!

I, too, plan to have the clones grow while the other plants are flowering.


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## Hushpuppy

Some plants will stretch to 2-2.5 times their veg size, while others will barely stretch at all. It very much depends on the strain. It seems like the more sativa they are, the more they will stretch, but I am sure there are exceptions to that.

I have found that you can slow the stretching a bit when they go into flower by pinching them at the topmost internode(space on stem between leaves) just enough to crush the inner-hurd(meat inside the stem) to soften the stem some. you don't have to crush it to the point that the top falls over but if it does it won't hurt anything. If you do this to all the highest branches once each week, it will stop them from stretching and will cause the other smaller branches start shooting up while the plant does the repairs to the stems.

 Because it isn't bad damage, it won't stress the plant too much. After about the 3rd or 4th week you don't have to do it anymore as the plants will quit stretching. But you will notice that the branches will have formed thick areas around the damage (which will make it impossible to pinch in the same spot twice). If a branch falls over I guarentee it will be standing up by the next day. just a couple weeks ago I pinched a branch and bent it over in the morning and by lunch it was standing right back up. 

GG; I looked at the RW cloner kit and I think that would work just fine. I use the rapid rooter that Advanced nutrients sells but it is a different material. I have found, The key to any of the "rapid rooters" is to keep a very close eye on them so that they stay moist but not soaked but don't let them dry out either. I watered mine with a medicine eyedropper so that I could put only a couple ml of water on them. And I set them on a bed of hydroton so that they wouldn't stand in water and allow the excess water to drain away.


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## The Silver Bullet Special

good because I have a feeling my plants are gonna be out of control I'm not sure if I should throw a screen over them and do a semi scrog to keep height down


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## growgreen420

Yeah I was going to run out of room if they double their height.  lol.

I did the clones today in RW with root gell and placed them in a doom with a light.... They are kinda falling over now and looking "sad"... is this normal?

I will try to have pics up later.  

And I switched over to flowering, last night, with my homemade HPS hood lol.  It works really well!


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## growgreen420

Okay the clones are starting to perk back up and are almost standing straight up lol.  Just got worried there for a moment I didn't know what to expect... .first time cloning...

p.s.  Can't find my camera right now so no pics until I find it


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## growgreen420

Hey guys.  Can someone shed a little light on my questions?

1.  Should I mist the clones if they get dry looking, daily...?  
2.  Should I water the rockwool at all?  (I soaked it prior to planting)
3.  Should I keep the vents open in the humidity dome?
4.  I have a small FL light about 8 inches above the plants... will this be okay?

I know I ask a lot of questions lol.


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## growgreen420

Anyone?  Lol


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## The Silver Bullet Special

If i had more cloning experience i would help more but from what ive read on her people leave the vents closed and sprits the inside of the dome for i think the first week or so then open the vents half way.


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## growgreen420

Ok thank you!  I have read similar things as well.  Just want to get some expert advice.


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## Hushpuppy

Sorry I missed this yesterday. It very much varies depending on your situation. I have found that my plants do better if I don't use a hood and don't mist them. My Bro has an EZ-cloner and mists but doesn't use the hood. I think if you are in a humid environment and use a cloner that produces humidity then you don't need to mist or use a dome. but if you are in a dry environment then you will need to either mist, dome, or both. When I use the rapid rooters, I water them with an eye dropper so that I can soak them but not too much. But I also pick them up daily and feel the bottoms to see if they are very wet or just damp. You don't want to let them dry out, but you don't want them floating either. I like to set mine in a container on top of an inch or 2 of hydroton and water them the first time and any time they are getting dry, but I also pour some water into the hydroton to keep it wet but not let the water be deep enough to have the rooters sitting in it. By having the hydroton very wet, it allows the rooters to suck the moisture up from it between waterings. Hope this helps


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## Hushpuppy

Keep asking the questions Bro, we'll answer


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## The Silver Bullet Special

I'm really hesitant to jump into cloning. I guess I wont learn till I try.. all my rapid rooters molded in the bag I had them in... I guess those are things you have to use fast?


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## growgreen420

Thanks for the replies!  And yes your comments helped a lot! lol  The clones are bright green and standing straight up!    Hope they stay this way, now.  lol *knock on wood


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## growgreen420

I am just using my hands right now to feel the heat coming off my hps light but does anyone know what a "safe" distance for a 400w hps should be above the plants?  Like a foot?


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## sMACkaddict

yea I think like a foot is the minimum, but it really depends on your air exchange setup... as with everything in growing, just err on the side of caution and work your way up (or down I guess)


sMACk


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## The Silver Bullet Special

I've read on here that some people move their hand from the canopy to the light until they can start to feel heat then back off an inch to set light height.


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## growgreen420

Some of the clones lower leaves are turning yellow.... Is this normal for the leaves to do this?  And I don't see any roots coming out of the rock wool cubes yet so they r not quite ready to be transplanted into soil.  Should i just keep using water on them or should I add any nutes?  Thanks!


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## Hushpuppy

That depends, they will start yellowing sometimes on the lower leaves when rooting, you may have too much light which is causing them to try to stay in full veg mode. You want to cause the veg mode to "pause" while they develop roots. 

When I am running clones, I have a single bloom T5 bulb that turns off for 15 minutes every 3hours. I was doing this to allow some cool down as they were getting too hot back in the summer, but I have kept doing it as it seems to encourage rooting faster.

I would hesatate to feed them anything until I see some roots popping out, and then I feed lightly until the roots get stronger so that I don't burn the new roots, as they will burn easy.

How long have they been in the rooters?


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## growgreen420

Thanks Hushpuppy.

I am actually using rockwool and it has been 6 days now.

I think my light was a little too strong for them (FL 75w equivilant to about 23w?)

So I swaped that out with one of my aquarium 15w T8 bulbs.

See pictures:

The first two pictures are with the brighter bulb and the last one is with the aquarium bulb.

The 7w FL is full spectrum, while the aquarium is not (not sure on K rating) will this matter much?  It looks to be more bluish/purple in color...


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## growgreen420

Here are a couple pics of the garden.

Hard to tell but it looks like there are some tiny buds starting.  Oh, and we have 4 FEMALES plants!  The one plant I could not tell sex for the longest time just showed this week, FEMALE!  lol.  This made me happy!  Glad I kept her!

This 400W HPS is insanely bright!  I have to wear sunglasses when looking at the plants lol... so dope.  I can't believe I have that much light in a tiny 6 ft squared area lol.  Plants seem to love it!

Dosing 1/2 strength FF ferts seems to be the trick, too.  Plants are healthy minus some tiny leaves here and there on the bottom that shrivel up (probably not getting enough light).  I see this as normal as trees outside loose leaves when they are healthy, too.

I just want to thank everyone who has helped me get this far!  Wouldn't of been able to do it on my own! 

Enjoy the pics!


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## growgreen420

Anyone about the clones after looking at the pics?


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## HemperFi

I think your dome is too big, and you should be wetting the whole inside of the dome. My clones begin to droop when I leave the dome open too long... For what that's worth 

Peace


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## growgreen420

HemperFi said:
			
		

> I think your dome is too big, and you should be wetting the whole inside of the dome. My clones begin to droop when I leave the dome open too long... For what that's worth
> 
> Peace



So wet the dome daily?  On the insides of the dome there is water running down so I know the Humidity is probably at least 90%.

Right now I can't get a bigger dome, unfortunately.  So I should maybe just water the inside of the doom more?

Thanks!


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## The Hemp Goddess

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> Thanks Hushpuppy.
> 
> I am actually using rockwool and it has been 6 days now.
> 
> I think my light was a little too strong for them (FL 75w equivilant to about 23w?)
> 
> So I swaped that out with one of my aquarium 15w T8 bulbs.
> 
> See pictures:
> 
> The first two pictures are with the brighter bulb and the last one is with the aquarium bulb.
> 
> The 7w FL is full spectrum, while the aquarium is not (not sure on K rating) will this matter much?  It looks to be more bluish/purple in color...



There is no way that a 23W CFL is too strong--it is a 23W bulb equivalent to a 75W (rather than the other way around), however, equivalent wattage is a useless figure for growing purposes and means nothing.  I would put the 23W back.  

Don't get too impatient, roots often take 2 weeks or maybe more, depending on the conditions,

Did you presoak your rockwool cubes in water pH'd to 5.5 before you put the clones into them?


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## growgreen420

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> There is no way that a 23W CFL is too strong--it is a 23W bulb equivalent to a 75W (rather than the other way around), however, equivalent wattage is a useless figure for growing purposes and means nothing.  I would put the 23W back.
> 
> Don't get too impatient, roots often take 2 weeks or maybe more, depending on the conditions,
> 
> Did you presoak your rockwool cubes in water pH'd to 5.5 before you put the clones into them?



Yes I did pre-soak them.

Okay so I will put the other light back on...  

What about the yellowing leaves?  Will the clone be able to make roots fast enough before the plant dies so I can start feeding it?


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## growgreen420

Little update on the clones:

What do you guys think?  Everything look alright?


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## Hushpuppy

That looks ok to me. Just my opinion but I don't particularly like using a dome as for mine, I found it to be too much humidity, but that could be my environment or my strains, but your readings there look good. I also agree with THG on the lighting. I actually use a single T5 bloom bulb and have it on a timer to turn off for 15min every 2hrs. They really don't need a lot of light when rooting. Also, the yellowing I wouldn't worry too much about now as during rooting yellowing will occur because of the whole process.

I also make sure to use water that is 78f-80f for everything that goes to the cloning process, it just seems to work better.


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## Roddy

Hushpuppy said:
			
		

> That looks ok to me. Just my opinion but I don't particularly like using a dome as for mine, I found it to be too much humidity, but that could be my environment or my strains, but your readings there look good. I also agree with THG on the lighting. I actually use a single T5 bloom bulb and have it on a timer to turn off for 15min every 2hrs. *They really don't need a lot of light when rooting.* Also, the yellowing I wouldn't worry too much about now as during rooting yellowing will occur because of the whole process.
> 
> I also make sure to use water that is 78f-80f for everything that goes to the cloning process, it just seems to work better.



My cloner sits in the kitchen beside the sliding door and gets only the light afforded there (natural sunlight diffused through the door's glass, only during midday an don as it's a west facing wall), works great! I don't use my dome either, they look to do great either way, but I was getting a bit of mold on some leaves for some reason.


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## The Hemp Goddess

I think whether you use a dome or not has to depend on your individual RH.  The humidity is generally quite low where I live and I could never clone without a dome.


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## growgreen420

Wow thanks for all the responses! I guess I will just keep watching them and hope they do well!


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## growgreen420

What do you guys think of this for my next clone?  Worth it or not Worth it?

hxxp://www.midwesthydroponics.com/seed-starting/cloning-machines/daisy-cloner-8.html


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## Hushpuppy

That's a nice aerocloner but You can save that $80 and make a DIY bubble cloner that will work just as good. Go to Walmart and get a shallow storage tote that is as big as you want to go with, go to the fish store and get the biggest air pump that they offer, 10' of air hose, and and 4 of the big air stones that are heavy (not the round ones as they don't sink right and move around too much). While you are at walmart, look for the round floaty tubes that are made of neoprene(or go to the hardware store and get the same stuff that is used to make pipe insulation)

When you get it home, cut the round insulation/neoprene stuff so that it is about 1"to 1-1/2" thick "pucks" and then measure the diameter of them and cut holes in the lid of the tote that are about 1/4"-1/2" smaller in diameter so that the pucks can be squeezed into the holes and be able to hold the cuttings. Drill 2-4 holes in one end of the lid for the air hose to go through and connect each hose to an air stone and to the pump, and set them in the bottom of the tote so that they are spread out from each other. Fill her with water and clonex solution, plug in the air pump and insert yer cuttings  If you want to see mine, I have a small one that I built last year at the beginning of my "stealth cabinet" grow journal, and I have a new bigger one that I just built a few weeks ago on the last page of the same journal


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## growgreen420

Wow that is a great write up!  Since I am into fish keeping I already have most the stuff lol.  Is there a special clonax gel or powder I need to mix into the water?


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## Hushpuppy

I use the clonex solution and the gel. I take my cuttings and dip them in the gel then let them sit for about 20-30min before putting them into the cloner. I mix about 5ml of clonex solution to 1liter of water


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## growgreen420

Ok thanks Hushpuppy!


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## growgreen420

Is there any way to put my clones in a slow growth/"dormant" state.  I only have one grow room which is being used for flowering right now and wanna keep my clones a little smaller until I harvest and can move the clones into the grow room.  I was thinking about just exposing them to a smaller amount of light?


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## DrFever

hey  as for your clones you  really need to cut half of the  big fan leafs off     this will help  with  the way  clones   hang down


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## Growdude

growgreen420 said:
			
		

> Is there any way to put my clones in a slow growth/"dormant" state. I only have one grow room which is being used for flowering right now and wanna keep my clones a little smaller until I harvest and can move the clones into the grow room. I was thinking about just exposing them to a smaller amount of light?


 
That will make them tall and lanky, stretched.
what you want is once rooted keep the the light as bright as possible and as close as possible, this keeps them short with compact nodes.


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## The Silver Bullet Special

To add to what Growdude said if you have to just take another clone and go with the smaller one... I decided to have a seperate flowering area so I could clone but even with that I'd have an 8-10 week veg between harvests and will probably only be able to do 2-3 plants in a 2x5.5 ft area.


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## Growdude

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> To add to what Growdude said if you have to just take another clone and go with the smaller one... I decided to have a seperate flowering area so I could clone but even with that I'd have an 8-10 week veg between harvests and will probably only be able to do 2-3 plants in a 2x5.5 ft area.


 
Yea, I do the Mom plant thing with just a 2-3 week vegg.
I only have a tent and a very small closet for the mother, just a light on her no fans no nothing and she does quite well.

So its easy and with such a short vegg time It works great.


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## growgreen420

Okay thanks for the info!  So far the clones are hanging in there.  One clone lost all its leaves besides one but has new, healthy growth, coming on top.  Other than that the other clones have already grown new leaves and, fingers crossed, they will start growing up in no time. 

And yes, next time I will cut the tips of the leaves off.  What does this do exactly?  Allow the plant to take in more water when in the cloning process (since the roots aren't developed yet)?

Thanks again for the info!  This site, rocks! lol


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## The Silver Bullet Special

It does the exact opposite, cutting the leaves willl reduce water loss through transpiration and slow photosynthesis since there isnt as much leaf there to conduct the process. (Someone correct me if im wrong its been a long day lol)


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## growgreen420

The Silver Bullet Special said:
			
		

> It does the exact opposite, cutting the leaves willl reduce water loss through transpiration and slow photosynthesis since there isnt as much leaf there to conduct the process. (Someone correct me if im wrong its been a long day lol)



lol

That makes sense, too.


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## Hushpuppy

Yeah, what SBS said is right. When you are trying to root cuttings, you don't want much vegging process happening. You want to "pause" the upper growth so that the plant will switch over the hormones that control growth of leaves to the hormones that grow roots. So you want to try to suspend as much upper activity as possible without harming the cutting.

I have found that when I use a single 54w "bloom" bulb and have it turn off for 30minutes every 4 hours, I get really great root growth within 10 days of setting them in the cloner.


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## Old Resin

If you veg under t-5's it's a good idea to put your cuttings on top of the light fixture so it gets indirect light for the first three days so it doesn't stress the cuttings. I also take the mom off of nutes for 3 days and feed straight water before I take the cuttings. I go from cutting to transplant in two weeks this way.


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## growgreen420

Thanks guys for the info.  Yeah I did take some new cuttings not too long ago and cut the leaf tips off.  They seem to not be falling over as much as the other clones I did where I didn't cut the tips of the leaves.


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## The Silver Bullet Special

With what is going in my grow space I'm not going to clone these plants.... not worth it... I'm ready to get into some satori and just learn one strain at a time.


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## Hushpuppy

That is a wise idea. I have found that by settling on one or two strains and working on perfecting them, you end up better off as you really learn the plants needs and how to optimize your grow for that plant and get the most from it.  As I say this I have 5 different strains that I have been working with :doh: As soon as I figure out which ones are the best, I will narrow them down a bit. Maybe just 3 strains


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## growgreen420

This is exactly my thought process as well lol


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## The Hemp Goddess

Hushpuppy said:
			
		

> That is a wise idea. I have found that by settling on one or two strains and working on perfecting them, you end up better off as you really learn the plants needs and how to optimize your grow for that plant and get the most from it.  As I say this I have 5 different strains that I have been working with :doh: As soon as I figure out which ones are the best, I will narrow them down a bit. Maybe just 3 strains



I totally agree.  I am also trying to narrow down what I am growing and stick with some I really like.  If I can get it down to 5 strains, I will be happy.  I really want to run 2 flowering spaces and harvest every month.


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## growgreen420

Yeah definitely need more flower space for me as well. And a couple spaces for clones, too.  That would be nice.  All in due time.  I just have to re frame from going to crazy haha


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