# LED Grows



## bombbudpuffa (Apr 2, 2007)

Anyone know how to do this? What lights are needed? What spectrum? How to wire the lights? Any help is greatly appreciated!


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## Bubby (Apr 2, 2007)

I tried doing some research on the 'newest led lights', a few months ago, but I could never find out how many lights are required. The company websites never offer any real specific data on how much light is being emitted. What led me to give up on the research, was that most of the sites claimed the LED lights were 'supplemental lighting'. Anyone have any experience with these?
Someone in the 1oz cup competition is using them, I'll be following along.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 2, 2007)

For LED light panels you will probably want to go with 5mm in blue and red. Blue with some red mixed in for veg and red with some blue mixed in for flower. I think the lowest light angle bulbs that are made are 20 degrees. These will give the most intense light, but over a smaller area. The wide angle bulbs disperse the light over a much broader range, but that deminishes their intensity. And you want the lights to be as intense as possible. LED's are definitely not cheap. You can look into the few companies that are selling LED lighting systems. I was curious to see if I could have large panels of hundreds of LED bulbs made completely surround my plants. For a panel that is 11"H x 5"W that contained roughly 600 bulbs it would have cost approximately $425 per panel. For that much money you can buy an HID system and get excellent results.

Just so you understand what I was going for...I was going to just have larger panels made of what you see in the first picture. The second picture is made by another company. I think it costs somewhere around $1100. I suggest checking on ebay to see other stuff thats on there. Just search under led grow light and you'll find what I'm talking about.


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## Bubby (Apr 2, 2007)

So lazerkittens, did you abandon your idea because of the initial cost to setup? 
I would think that, if over the long run, the LED lights proved to be more effective per $ spent, then we'd be seeing a lot more LED lights being used. 

What's the lifetime of LED lights, something like 50 000 hrs? HPS bulbs are around 20 000 hrs. I don't think they make replacement LED bulbs either.
I wish I had the numbers to do the math, but I guess they're not comparable, being that LED uses a more focused wavelength.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 2, 2007)

I forget how long the LEDs will last, but it's in years. You can buy packs of bulbs. You'll just have to resolder them to the board and you're good to go. I abandoned LEDs simply because of the cost. It made a lot more sense to me to just buy an HID system for the price of one panel that would give me proven results. I have yet to see a full grow with LEDs. If they weren't so expensive I wouldve liked to try it out. They use so much less electricity and put out very little heat. And supposedly you're able to feed the plant the two light wavelengths it uses most for photosynthesis.


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 3, 2007)

LaserKittensGoPewPew said:
			
		

> I forget how long the LEDs will last, but it's in years. You can buy packs of bulbs. You'll just have to resolder them to the board and you're good to go. I abandoned LEDs simply because of the cost. It made a lot more sense to me to just buy an HID system for the price of one panel that would give me proven results. I have yet to see a full grow with LEDs. If they weren't so expensive I wouldve liked to try it out. They use so much less electricity and put out very little heat. And supposedly you're able to feed the plant the two light wavelengths it uses most for photosynthesis.


Exactly!!! I've seen a full grow with them on another forum(pm me for a link) and the growth was amazing, to say the least. I found some leds on ebay and personally I didn't think the price was bad. How many bulbs would you say I would need? How do you wire them? Where do you get the board you solder them to?http://cgi.ebay.com/100-PCS-5mm-8Kmcd-Fast-Flashing-RED-BLUE-BI-COLOR-LED_W0QQitemZ320096064810QQcategoryZ66954QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemAre these the right kind? I'm wanting to experiment with this so bad! Thanks for any and all help!!!


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## AlienBait (Apr 3, 2007)

I picked up 4 of this company's LED grow lights off ebay a few months ago, but never used them:

http://cgi.ebay.com/LED-Grow-Light-RB66-growing-lights-Orchid-4-PACK_W0QQitemZ290100215905QQcategoryZ43555QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

There is a really good discussion about the LED lights at that auction.  Check it out!

They say the four lights will cover a 4 sqare foot area.  I doubt that is true.

Right now, I am finally using them to flower my plant in the 16 oz grow thread:
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10461

Feel free to follow along and we can all learn together.


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 3, 2007)

What are the specs on those? Thanks!


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 3, 2007)

The price for the bulb packs eventually adds up. Depending on how many you buy, you may be able to get a bit of a discount by volume. The 5mm bulbs will have two long metal prongs that go through the circuit board. And you solder those inline with all the other bulbs. You have to make sure you're doing it properly and soldering resistors in the correct spot to make everything run how it's supposed to. For the circuit boards or even having everything completely done for you, try going to www.customled.com. They're the ones I got the quote from for those big led panels. I really don't know how many you would need for the best growth. But they say the more light you have the better. But lots of LED power comes at a very high price.

I actually found an article somewhere online about NASA's interest in using LEDs to grow different vegetables in space. They showed a picture of what they used and it was basically a giant square plate of hundreds, maybe a couple thousand LED bulbs. 

I think your best bet as far as growing with LEDs is to use what alienbait is using. That company puts out those premade fixtures that are packed with individual diodes. You can even find them on ebay for not a bad price. I've 9 packs of all red go for around $100. You would need to buy the all blue fixtures though. But those seem to be the most reasonable as far as price goes so far. The square panel in the pictures I posted above are selling for $30 on ebay, but you have to solder every single bulb in yourself. Resistors and AC plug are already mounted to the board. That's a lot of work.

Here is a picture of the board/led bulbs so you get the idea. That board measures 5&#8221; x 4.75&#8221; and holds 245 individual LED bulbs.


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## AlienBait (Apr 3, 2007)

Not sure what you want to know, but if you click on the first link I posted, you will get a ton of info.

Here are some numbers for you though:

The lights are 5 watts each with 12 blue LEDs and 54 Red LEDs.  It screws into a normal light socket.  They are suppose to last 15 years and the manufacturer offers a warranty.  They are all sealed glass and "Water resistant."

The Red LEDs emit light at 662nm - 680nm
The Blue LEDs emit light at 430nm - 460nm

They say that 10 Watts of LEDs is equal to 500 Watts of HID.  I seriously doubt that claim.  They also say that 4 of these lights will cover 4 square feet.  I also doubt that claim.

The 16 oz. cup grow is the first time that I am using them, so I do not know how well they will perform.  I've got all four pointed at one little plant, so it should explode with flowers, if the manufacturer's claims are to be believed.  We shall see.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 4, 2007)

Hey I checked out that grow you sent me. Doesn't look like it's doing bad at all. I do think to flower with good results you would need more lights though. 

I do think they're right though in saying that 4 fixtures will cover 4 square feet. Figure 1 foot per fixture right. Well the picture below is the light coverage of that LED panel I posted above with the red/blue bulbs. Check it out.

I do however seriously doubt that 10w of LED light is the equivilant of 500w of HID...There's no way.

also...if you're interested, right now on ebay there is a 9 pack of red LED fixtures starting at 1 dollar.

Here is the link

http://cgi.ebay.com/LED-Grow-Light-...ryZ42225QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 4, 2007)

Thanks but those things are probably gonna be $400 or more at the end of the auction. I think i'm going to try the one on your 1st post, 1st pic, square one. Thanks again though.


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 4, 2007)

just be aware that you're going to have to solder all those bulbs in yourself. It's not hard, but it's just time consuming. I'll definitely be looking for your grow journal though. I'm actually really interested in the use of LEDs for growing. Depending on the results I think they really may be worth the cost upfront.


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## bombbudpuffa (Apr 4, 2007)

LaserKittensGoPewPew said:
			
		

> just be aware that you're going to have to solder all those bulbs in yourself. It's not hard, but it's just time consuming. I'll definitely be looking for your grow journal though. I'm actually really interested in the use of LEDs for growing. Depending on the results I think they really may be worth the cost upfront.


I'd probably need about 3 of those for flower and thats probably for a couple plants. It's just 245 leds so i'll probably use them with my hps and see if I notice a diff. I have a total of 8 plants(2 ak48, 2 afghani, 2 white rhino and 2 indoor mix beans[i'm doing the 16 oz cup grow with the last 2]) under about 500w in a 2 1/2ft x 3ft room. I don't know if i'll try a complete grow with this light alone is all i'm trying to say.:joint:


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## jsmoke (Apr 20, 2007)

has any one tried fiber optics for light supply


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## jsmoke (Apr 20, 2007)

i think led lighting is interesting i never thought about it, it doesnt really seem econmical though


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## jsmoke (Apr 20, 2007)

nobody wants to reply


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## jsmoke (Apr 20, 2007)

has any one tried fiber optics for light supply


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## BSki8950 (Apr 20, 2007)

fiber optics for light supply .. i dont understand how that would work


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Apr 20, 2007)

LED lighting is actually more economical that using HID lighting. The only question now is how good the yields will be after growing with only LEDs.

This is from the LED light discussion thread in the "lights" section. Alien Bait figured out  how LEDs are more economical than HIDs. 



			
				AlienBait said:
			
		

> LaserKittens, that is a picture of what I was using as the "400 Watt HPS equivelent." They go for around $1200.00 on this website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Also...LEDs last for years. I think they have a life expectancy of around 7 years. That's even more cost cut down in replacement bulbs. 

NASA has been experimenting with growing under LEDs for some time now. It really does work quite well. Check out Alien Bait's 16oz cup grow under all LEDs. Now all we need to see is the kind of results that you can get from using them. And also how many LED fixtures you would need to get large yields. In the end HID systems might still be the most efficient option for getting the massive yields per light. You're probably going to need a whole crap load of LEDs to get the equivalent yield as a single HID.


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## imsoborednow (Jul 19, 2007)

LEd's are OK but Ive found that they have a very narrow beam of light.....its not like a 'normal' white light...so you'll need lots and thier expensive...I dont think the technology is there yet.......However I know from my subsciption to LED magazine.......that companies are racing each other to produce efficent LED streetlights...very powerful LED's......probably worth a closer look next year.......Manufacturers should state the angle of the beam..........I messed around with them for a while but couldnt get the light intensity all over the plant......1.they need to be real close to your plant to
If I were to mess with them again...Id probably have them rotating somehow so as to spread the light more evenly..........The board that Laserkitten showed you requires ALOT of soldering...not worth attempting unless you have a pro soldergun and loads of patience....
My advice ....keep your money in your pocket and wait for some new technology....it wont be long.....


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Jul 19, 2007)

They do make different LEDs with wider beam angles. Just remember that as the beam angle increases the light intensity decreases. So you really do want the smaller beam angle to give you the higher light intensity. But that's where you need many to fully cover the plant in light. That small board kit does require a lot of soldering. They do make them already finished for you for twice the amount of money, but it would probably be worth it going that way. No hassle. 

I'll be waiting to see about these street lamps. I know you can get the bigger sized LEDs, but they're a few dollars per bulb...Adds up pretty fast.


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## imsoborednow (Jul 19, 2007)

Hi Laserkitten.......how ya doing?

You know quite a bit about LED methinks.....

Check this out....
http://www.ledsmagazine.com/press/12960

Theres loads of info on this site if you feel like digging.......


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## AlienBait (Jul 19, 2007)

Great link ISBN.  I'm still studying up on LEDs.  I bought a few more and will do some more experimenting this fall.

LEDs Magazine!!  LOL!

Guess they have publications for everything.


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## booradley (Jul 19, 2007)

So what about these? They seem inexpensive and easy to use.

http://cgi.ebay.com/40-Red-LEDs-1-8-Watt-Lamp-110V-E27-Base_W0QQitemZ120068667081QQihZ002QQcategoryZ94941QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem

They are 1.8 watts so if 10 watts is like a 600 watt HID, theoretorically, they would be about 75 Watts of HID. If true, that aint bad. When my GF isn't mad at me for spending too much on my last set of lights, I might give it a try...:hubba:

Also found this: http://zgsm.en.alibaba.com/product/50107087/51597667/LED_Bulbs_lamps/White_LED_Bulb___7W.html

Claims to have only up to 420 lumens (not making that up!). Maybe they are using a different measurement?


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Jul 19, 2007)

Awesome site dude. Lots of good info there that I'm starting to read through. 

boo, don't believe everything the companies say about lumen output. The measurement for normal bulbs compared to LEDs is much different.


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## imsoborednow (Jul 20, 2007)

The lumens they measure from LEDs comes from the very centre of the beam...trouble is the thin angle of the beam....if you look at wider angled LEDs youll find that the lumens drop away considerably.........or they get VERY pricey.....What we all want is a wide angle LED covering the spectrums we want with enough .....I did find a calculation that works it out more accuratley....I'll see if I can find it.....


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## booradley (Jul 20, 2007)

I suspected that there was something I didn't understand. Too much hype for a measly 420 lumens. I mean, there is no way that street light has only 5000 lumens! (well, maybe it does, but they have to be more efficeint than the sun!)  

Only one way to find out just how well LEDs work! Use them! Would be curious to know if AlienBait has managed to find a good system with LEDs? Read your 16 oz (cup) grow. You did better in a 16 oz cup with untested lights than I do under CFLs following the gallon per foot rule!


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## LaserKittensGoPewPew (Jul 20, 2007)

Well, the LEDs seemed to have worked really well for alienbait. I think he just needed more. I've seen on ebay these 7 piece sets that are much bigger than the ones that he used. There are 6 red and 1 blue. I'm thinking if you put a couple of those kits around one of your plants, it would most definitely give you some decent bud. Still though, it would take a lot more to attain the yields you would get from an HPS. 

It's too hard to say without doing our own testing. I would absolutely love to do the testing, but unfortunately I don't have the hundreds or even thousands of dollars it would take. 

I have seen 900 bulb panels called flowerforcers. There's some on ebay right now for $420. Go figure... but I'm thinking that would be the way to go. If you could line a grow cab with those, I'm pretty sure you would grow some pretty nice plants.


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## imsoborednow (Jul 20, 2007)

Its just a lot of money for un-proven...(with marijuana anyhow)...results...
I watched Alienbaits grow and was impressed.....awesome dude..:aok:
Theres no doubt that the basics are right...I think its power and spread thats the issue....think of an LED like a pencil beam of light...youve either got to spread that beam diffusing its strength...or you got to have thousands...for our use ......I reckon to grow 1m sq you'd need 1m sq of LEDs say 200 x 200 sq  = 40 000 LED.......

and as laser kitten said...it would cost

Or you got to have a big un....


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## imsoborednow (Jul 28, 2007)

Maybe stronger lights are needed....ie....streetlight LED,s......

I found some.....in China....(where else!!!)

Warm light..(3/4000k).....12 600 Lm

Covers 1/2 sqm....(light is 1m x 0.4m with a 120deg beam)...

Costs.....$700 each.......thats a bit pricey.....

some cheaper ones.......cost $150.......2 300 Lm each size...10" x 3 1/2"
running at 38W produces 75 Lm per Watt of energy.
Available in a Warm light.....
Thats as good as flouros if not better...as the max operating temp of these lights is 40 deg C......thats also well cool..:aok:
take a look......

http://www.spark-oe.com/product.aspx?oneID=16


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## AlienBait (Jul 28, 2007)

The problem with the warm-white LEDs is that it is really just a Blue LED with a phosphorus coating.  The phosphorus will glow toward the red (peaking in the orange).  Add that to the already existing Blue and you will get the "warm-white" color.

The reason this is a problem is that they lose 25% of the output because the phosphorus has to absorb part of the blue light, then re-readiate.  It would be better to just have mono-color LEDs when making up your grow-lights (at least that I was told.... ).

That being said, I bought some warm-white and some other colors like UVA, and IR that I will add to my existing red and blue LEDs to see if adding extra colors will make a difference in the bud production.

Unfortunately I have to wait until the weather cools down in the fall before I can use them.  It is just too hot where I live to grow anything right now.


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## AlienBait (Jul 28, 2007)

imsoborednow said:
			
		

> Its just a lot of money for un-proven...(with marijuana anyhow)...results...
> I watched Alienbaits grow and was impressed.....awesome dude..:aok:
> Theres no doubt that the basics are right...I think its power and spread thats the issue....think of an LED like a pencil beam of light...youve either got to spread that beam diffusing its strength...or you got to have thousands...for our use ......I reckon to grow 1m sq you'd need 1m sq of LEDs say 200 x 200 sq = 40 000 LED.......
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for the kinds works.  

When I did the 16 oz cup grow with the LEDs, I think I had enough light because the plant did not stretch.  It stayed pretty compact.  I think the reason it stayed small was because I used a 16 oz cup and it was root-bound.  Also, I only vegged for about a week.  Next time, I'll be using a bigger pot and I'll be using clones.  In fact, I've revegged the original plant from the 16oz cup and will be taking clones off of her.  I figure I will get a good comparison if I use the exact same genetics. 

I'm getting pretty excited about growing with the LEDs again.  With you guys talking about it, the anticipation builds.:hubba:


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## imsoborednow (Jul 28, 2007)

I hear ya Alienbait.........

Just doing some costings out loud....

I agree with adding some more of the spectrum as the plants dont just use the blue and red colors in light even if its only small amounts.....


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## imsoborednow (Jul 28, 2007)

Didn't know you was continuing with LED's........

I look forward to a good grow journal soon then?????.....


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## AlienBait (Jul 29, 2007)

imsoborednow said:
			
		

> Didn't know you was continuing with LED's........
> 
> I look forward to a good grow journal soon then?????.....


 
I'll have something up at the beginning of September.  Like I said earlier, it is just too hot where I live right now.


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## trichnut (Sep 6, 2007)

id be interested in seeing a good sized board say the sized of a 40" flatscreen TV and instead of the 3 primary colors having white, red, and blue all as tight as can be and then with a dimmer nob to change the light spectrum for better veg and bloom, more red less blue and vise versa.


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