# Breeding for seeds: How to keep uniformity, stay around f1 - f2?



## HazeMe (Jun 24, 2009)

So, I just need to know a little more about breeding for seeds, and how to keep consistent uniformity. I know how to breed plants just for seeds, but not much beyond that. 

With some seeds becoming scarce, it's becoming difficult to find some strains these days. So, I want to breed my own seeds, while keeping them as close to the f1 - f2 as when I bought them. 

Say I have some A11 that is f1, and I want to produce seeds that are going to stay around f1. How can I make seeds that will stay like the f1's? Would I take two of the plants from the seeds and breed them, while keeping a mother from the first batch of seeds? After I breed the first batch of seeds, then keep a male to back breed, and keep going until I've cubed them out?

Basically, I just want to keep a seed line going that stays true to the f1's that I bought the first time around. I don't want to keep buying a bunch of seeds. 

I know clones are great, but I like to keep seeds on hand. If you have a bunch of different strains and little space it's hard to keep a mother or two of each plant for cloning. 

Thanks
HazeMe


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## Mutt (Jun 24, 2009)

That is a lot of info you need there.
Search the forum and google for "Cubing" "backcrossing" "inbreeding" also check out a thread from me i posted...called "DJ shorts cataloging system"
should be in this section. you gonna have to read read and read some more on stabalizing.


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## HazeMe (Jun 24, 2009)

Mutt, I appreciate the information!
I have looked through most of the breeding info, or at least browsed. I figured there would be more to it than just some simple breeding. I looked at "DJ shorts cataloging system", but I didn't look over the entire thing. 

I have looked over a bunch of information on cubing and back breeding. 

Do you think the best thing to do is cube them? Just find a good female or two from the first round of seeds, then do the cubing? 

Cubing sounds like it would be best for what I really need. I want to keep the line as uniform as possible, like when I first got the seeds. In some of the information that I looked over it estimated that 88% of the plants would be like the mother, after cubing. 

Thanks
HazeMe


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## leafminer (Jun 24, 2009)

Hmmmmm .. .. same thing I am doing .. .. I can say this, if you backbreed you will multiply recessive genes and get some strange characteristics going on, like the unusual leaves on my 'Secret Agent' 75% sat doms. I'm part way through this, running a grow journal on the results. I'm at the point where I am pollinating the backbred sat doms and this will be the first (S1) sibling to sibling cross. The type already does look pretty stable, all the seed-grown plants have similar appearance (and they don't look a lot like MJ as we know it!)


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## Mutt (Jun 25, 2009)

I really can't say wich is best bro. just can give info like. this is where it becomes a gray area...some preach inbreeding, some preach cubing, some preach outcrossing, others got there own thing.
The only thing i can tell ya is to search the internet hard. icmag has some great threads on breeding as well as this one. but your stepping into a very difficult realm to find a path in.
Myself going at it with the Bx way for my current run.


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## HazeMe (Jun 25, 2009)

Thanks again, Mutt! I'm ready to walk down that hard path. I think I'm going to try the cubing. 

Thanks
HazeMe


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## leafminer (Jun 25, 2009)

Pls keep us informed - like Mutt says, it is hard to find good info about this.


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## HazeMe (Jun 25, 2009)

Leafminer, I will make sure to do grow journals with very detailed notes, when I start the process. I think I'm still going to do a bit more research before I go full throttle into this, but It wont be long now! I'm thinking around a month or so before I start the process. Thank you guys for your help.

HazeMe


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## BioShaman (Jul 5, 2009)

ty


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## Hick (Jul 5, 2009)

HazeMe said:
			
		

> Thanks again, Mutt! I'm ready to walk down that hard path. I think I'm going to try the cubing.
> 
> Thanks
> HazeMe



Hee hee hee making seeds can be fun and exciting, but the conviction and dedication required to produce a 'new strain', is daunting. 
Anyone can 'make seeds', that's easy. "Breeding" requires a pretty in depth understanding of genetics. :hubba:
G'luck!... and have fun


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## Rockster (Jul 5, 2009)

Hi HazeMe,

 technically,cubing works when the strain being worked on is homozygous for the desired trait(s).

Your A11 is an F1 hybrid,meaning it's heterozygous(unstable) so when you cross F1 x F1 you'll get F2 progeny that will exhibit 'differentiation' which means a population with much variety which may mean difficulty in finding a female like the desired mum as we deal with very small numbers in our grows but temper that with the fact that with this F2 gene recombination you might in fact find something superior and then the best bet is to clone to keep her(I know you want seeds).

So try to cube as although you've been told it's hybrid you don't know the exact breeding condition unless you talk direct to the breeder and even then,it's a case of doing the work and testing.

Homozygous/Heterozygous explanation.

For homozygous you can almost read 'homogeneous' and it can be in 1 of 2 states: Homozygous recessive  aa  (these letters represent traits)
           Homozygous dominant  AA

The heterozygous state is Aa which is unstable and when used in crosses like does not always beget like.A thing called a punnet box is used to map out crosses,its just a diagrammatic expression which maps things out on paper but when using this the punnet box laws apply for homozygosity,not the heterozygous(hybrid) condition.

So cubing with hybrids is not easy to map out or predict,(if at all)just have to do the work and see the outcomes.

I'm working on the UK Cheese clone atm and it is heterozygous for the Cheese chemotype and as I don't have the male which originally pollinated it,it's nigh impossible to get the true Cheese into seed form as you have to outcross(breed with another male) which effectively cojoins the donor males genes to the Cheese female genes and therefore effectively produce a new chemotype from which you cannot extricate the purely Cheese 'details' so all you can do is hope the male complementary genes combine to make something 'Cheesey'.

Sorry for the piecemeal explanation(diagrams best explain this) as I don't have my reference books here that could have stated things so much better but do a bit of googling re the punnet box and cubing and you'll find the info you want hopefully.


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## HazeMe (Jul 5, 2009)

Hick and Rockster, I know it's going to be a bit rough going for a while. It should be fun though. I enjoy doing things like this, where you can really see the fruits of your labor farther down the line. Right now, I'm still reading and filling my head full of information before I step into this.

I don't think I'm going to single out cubing only. I will probably do another method or two to see which works better. Mostly this is for fun and making a bunch of seeds for myself.  

Thanks for all the information!
HazeMe


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