# using Mutagens for new traits



## abc123 (Oct 4, 2007)

I just borrowed a book by Clarke (1981) and started reading this afternoon on lunch break.  I got to the part on mutagens and mutations.

Is there an existing discussion/interest on the topic of purposely introducing mutagens in an effort to see new traits appearing in MJ?

I am as much a scientist interested in breeding as I am a toker.  The differences in strains (natural or human induced) interest me very much and I would like to know if there are any tests going on where people have introduced mutagens and created/mutated new strains with strange/different traits.  For example, is the cinnamon strain the result of a mutation?

Anyone interested or have info on this subject, please reply!!


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## Hick (Oct 5, 2007)

"Marijuana Botany?:..by Clarke..
  I've read it...and often use it for referrance.
 BUT..Bob goes waaaaaaaaay over my head in many instances.
  That said, I'm willing to participate in a discussion, _"IF"_ you are willing and able to keep it on a level that my shallow mind can comprehend... 

   "Introducing mutagens"...I've never gotten to such an advanced point. Basic combinations/combining of genetics and attempting to isolate or reproduce specific traits, has been challenging enough..
  Introducing mutagens, 'could/should'.. promote/influence the expression of recessive traits, which is "IMHO" an important factor in attempting to create a new strain, or stabalize or improve an existing one.
  Either by isolating and eliminating an unfavorable, or reproducing a favorable.
Am I headed in the right direction??


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## Mutt (Oct 5, 2007)

I'm just gonna watch. Over my head isn't the term for me.


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## BSki8950 (Oct 5, 2007)

i think there was a thread not to long ago about how the strain blueberry might be a result mutagens.. i could be wrong though .. this topic does interest me


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## abc123 (Oct 5, 2007)

Yes, Hick, That is the book.  I'm not botanist but I do think I understand some of the stuff Clarke talks about.  I do not have the room to properly attempt to cross and or isolate traits, so mutations seem to me to be a fun alternative and an exciting way to develop new traits.

Colchicine seems to be the mutagen of choice, although Clarke says it is poisonous, and may be harder to obtain than it was in 1981 

I have no way to produce X-rays either.  Does anyone know of a readily available mutagen?  On wiki it looks like Nitrous Acid is the easiest to get, but if I remember correctly in Clarke's book, he says soaking 10 seeds in a mutagen will produce zero viable mutant seeds, but soaking 1000 seeds in a mutagen may produce 3 seeds which will be 100% viable - problem is I don't have a way to get 1000 seeds, so I'm thinking that inroducing the mutagen at the same time pollen is introduced.  Don't know if that will work though.

I'm thinking a plant that produces high quality/quantity buds with little or no smell would be a great addition to the existing strains, and make cultivation a lot less risky for some folks, and any traits created/mutated along the way would be interesting too.


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## Hick (Oct 6, 2007)

> I'm thinking that inroducing the mutagen at the same time pollen is introduced. Don't know if that will work though.


........interesting concept. I'm skeptical of its effects at that point though. 
colchine is the only mutagen that "I" have noticed being discussed, too.



> Colchicine
> 
> The major alkaloid obtained from the seed capsules, corms, and bulbs of the meadow saffron (autumn crocus; Colchicum autumnale). The use of the colchicum plant to relieve the pain of gout has been known since medieval times, and colchicine is still the standard treatment for gout, although it is an extremely toxic substance. *An important property of colchicine is its ability to interrupt the mitotic cycle before cell division occurs. This effect leads to cells with multiple chromosomes, which are of value in plant breeding.* See also Alkaloid; Liliales; Mitosis; Polyploidy.


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## choking_victim (Oct 6, 2007)

I would think that if it's as easy as spreading pollen from a male , to a female of different species of plant, people would have been doing it for a long time.

 But I have heard about two different plants of the same hight; both sliced down the middle, and ones left to the others right, and somehow make them grow together....?


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## abc123 (Oct 6, 2007)

I think that is called grafting (or some form of it)

What I am proposing is the use of mutagens to acquire unknown possibilities in traits.

For example, has anyone ever thought to breed a strain that is completely blue and odorless?  Probably not....but maybe if you smoked it it would be the best high ever, and had a decreased risk of being arrested because of the decreased odor.  We all try to come up with the best strians by cloning good parents or mating good parents, and that works alot of the time....but what about the traits we never thought of, that can be randomly acquired by mutation instead of selective breeding?

I'm talking about rolling the dice by causing a mutation to create traits no one ever thought of....

Weed with a 20 miute high
Odorless smoke
Odorless plants
Pepsi flavored smoke
Good tasting edible weed
Plants that grow no more than 2 feet tall
Plants that autoflower like ruderalis, but smoke like an indica


These are just some examples I can think of....the potential is in the traits that no one has even considered!


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## HGB (Oct 6, 2007)

abc123 said:
			
		

> Anyone interested or have info on this subject, please reply!!



interesting topic there *abc123* and a good read  

kinda like play'n god hehe... to bad EMAN isnt  around as he was researching into this last I heard.

bit over my head but i try to pound it in will be watching for more input on this, thanks for the info :hubba: 

peace


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## newgrower (May 17, 2008)

You may want to try Ethyl Methanesulphonate. I saw this mentioned as a source of plant mutation. It's action is different from colchicine. EMS introduces point mutations so I'm thinking more of the seeds should be viable. I don't know about availability but would think it's available online as most chemicals are and wouldn't think it's on any government watch lists (unless there's other uses we don't know about). 

I'm not familiar with the concept of multiple chromosomes being of use in plant breeding but from what I remember from school (minored in genetics) in humans most extra chromosomes mean death and those that don't are terrible diseases like down syndrome so it's not surprising that most seeds would not be viable.

With point mutations though, you may get more viable seeds but also more without any changes - point mutations can cause no change in the function of the gene. Guess that depends on how many point mutations are introduced. (Point mutation is a change in one base pairs (ATCG) to a different base. 3 base pairs correspond to an amino acid (building block of proteins) and a change in an amino acid can cause the protein to not fold correctly making it useless).

To reduce smell, I'm thinking what you need is to introduce a mutation that causes the gene(s) that produces chemicals that causes smell to stop functioning properly. Of course that depends on what other functions are associated with these chemicals and there may be several genes involved.

Good luck! I'm just starting growing myself so it'll be a while before I'm to the point of playing with things like this.


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## Puffin Afatty (May 17, 2008)

newgrower said:
			
		

> To reduce smell, I'm thinking what you need is to introduce a mutation that causes the gene(s) that produces chemicals that causes smell to stop functioning properly. Of course that depends on what other functions are associated with these chemicals and there may be several genes involved


 
_Interesting stuff for sure!!!!   :woohoo: I think the problem with producing the terpines that dont smell and yet still have the cbd's.  perhaps by decreasing the terps you can increase the cbd's.  sounds great!!!  give it a go and let US know._


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## bombbudpuffa (May 17, 2008)

> You may want to try Ethyl Methanesulphonate.


What does it do? I know they use Colchicine to induce triploidy but whats the EMS applied for?


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## newgrower (May 20, 2008)

It just causes point mutations - it changes GC base pairs to AT base pairs at the rate of 0.05 to 0.0005 mutations per gene. I'm thinking that this will allow more of the seeds to be viable if you don't have lots to throw away. But it may take just as many seeds to find a useful mutation.

Too bad there's not a cannabis genome project and the particular genes could be targeted. I don't know enough marijuana chemistry at this point to know how the active stuff we want relates to the smell but it sounds like there's a possilbity there.


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## jraddude (May 23, 2008)

Plant breeding with mutagens is usually a numbers game since the outcomes are so variable and usually not desirable/viable.  Plant breeders plant acres and acres of mutagenic corn in order to just get a couple plants with some desirable traits.  Because of this, I suppose a MJ grower interested in this would either have to work with seeds or take cuttings and use tissue cultures (this is basically applying the mutagen to a tissue sample and growing that into a new plant in a petri dish).  You can also apply mutagens to pollen, but any resulting plants will be heterozygous (they wont breed true).  

Chemical mutagens are generally more likely to produce desireable mutations when compared to Xrays or gamma radiation.  Some common ones besides colchicine are: ethyl methane sulfonate (EMS), diethylsulfonate(DES), ethylene oxide, other alkylating agents, and lots of other stuff.  Let me know if you want a bigger list


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## Tater (May 26, 2008)

I love this stuff post all info you got!


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## ChatNoir (May 27, 2008)

It is possible though it would be very hard and time consuming work, most of the mutations will cause plant to have an undesirable trait or just die, the main point in here is plant as much as possible, make them mutate then plant their offspring, see mutations take the desired trait and isolate it as you try to create another trait after for a decade or two you'd have one or two plants with desired traits, then you'll cross them to death to create a stable strait carrying both characteristics of ancestors which may cost half a decade if not more...

It is possible that you can isolate the perfect plant from a low-level bag seed if only you have enough time and resources but that is another story...


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## Tater (May 27, 2008)

Actually if you only choose two of the plants phenotypes to stabalize you could theoretically do it in about 3 years if each generation took 8 months.  But yeah a lot of work.  I'm actually going to try to cross and stabalize this 4 year old strain that a friend gave to me of unknown origin with the purple power's colour.  I want to take the lemon from the unknown strain and the purple from the other, I should be able to stabalize those two phenotypes in about 2 years.  After that who knows, maybe I will keep refining that strain.  Inbreeding is fun 

Anyways does anyone know of any easily available mutigens one could play with if they had the time?


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## jraddude (May 28, 2008)

Ever hear of a gene gun? Its like a brute-force approach to breeding. check this out, pretty interesting, and its got plans so you can make your own! hahah

hxxp://dictybase.org/techniques/particle%20gun/particle_gun.htm#how%20to%20contruct%20a%20particle%20gun


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## Tater (May 30, 2008)

Uhhh I don't think I have the required knowledge to build or possess such a device lol.


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## trillions of atoms (Jun 1, 2008)

i would never go to any trouble. genetic variation is natural and happens in time. anything to interrupt a natural process, could inadvertantly do damage. cloning and cell reproduction, grafting and weeding hermis would never do damage, cloning and grafting is a temporary thing and clearing hermis is always good. playing with genetic alterations for breeding purposes could harm longterm. think about it if something that seemd like a good idea goes wrong- by the time the faulty trait might show- the seed could be spread worldwide in a heartbeat.considering that all variations in which are possible it couldalso  be possible to cloud the genepool.

i believe good things come to those that wait- variations are aplenty and aquireable to those who put forth the effort to gain.


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## Hick (Jun 1, 2008)

jraddude said:
			
		

> Ever hear of a gene gun? Its like a brute-force approach to breeding. check this out, pretty interesting, and its got plans so you can make your own! hahah
> 
> hxxp://dictybase.org/techniques/particle%20gun/particle_gun.htm#how%20to%20contruct%20a%20particle%20gun



:hubba:... If anybody needs me, I'll be out in the shop.....


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## Tater (Jun 7, 2008)

No one said I would release the seeds, its more for my own interest is all.  And your story is quite the stretch, I highly doubt me a newb breeder is going to bring down and destroy the genetics of marijuana.  Its just fun to play is all


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## newgrower (Jun 15, 2008)

I don't think there's much of a concern with ruining the genetics of marijuana. Although a species' health is measured by their biodiversity, from what I've seen there's a lot more variety with pot than say with corn. There's too much experimentation from the type of people who don't follow what everybody else is doing. 

One thing to mention though, is that any chemical that causes mutation through point mutations (not polyploidy) can cause cancer. The plants that grow should be fine but handling the chemical to dose the seeds - that could be dangerous if not done properly.


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