# New LED's



## ross (Dec 29, 2008)

Im sure most of you have heard of the LED UFO that is supposed to rival the 400 HPS, but i found out today that there is a 270W that is supposed to rival the 1000W HPS, so i was considering getting it because i did the math and it would actually be cheaper than going with the 1000W HPS after considering a year's electricity, has anyone used this light or heard good things?


----------



## BUDISGUD (Dec 29, 2008)

if it does rival a 1000wt hps wich i very much doubt please let me know lol


----------



## ross (Dec 29, 2008)

hxxp://www.hidhut.com/catalog/led-supernova-270w-led-array-standard-spectrum-p-1758.html


----------



## whiterussian (Dec 30, 2008)

ross said:
			
		

> Im sure most of you have heard of the LED UFO that is supposed to rival the 400 HPS, but i found out today that there is a 270W that is supposed to rival the 1000W HPS, so i was considering getting it because i did the math and it would actually be cheaper than going with the 1000W HPS after considering a year's electricity, has anyone used this light or heard good things?


Lol, well you can say all you want but for that price i could buy 3-4 1000 watt lights with reflector hoods for $999.99 bucks man thats a rip!


----------



## Alistair (Dec 30, 2008)

Ross, it's important to note that on that web page it states that in order to get the full spectrum of light necessary for maximum flower development, you need to purchase the upgraded Enhanced spectrum model.  Plus, it may or may not put out more light than a 1000 watt HID, but it only lights a 5'x5' area.  The average 400 watt HID will light a 5'x5' area as well.

If the led lights are really as good as the site says they are, then one day more people will start using them and the price will go down.  I'd wait for the price to go down before trying that out.  It does sound like a nice light though.


----------



## kalikisu (Dec 30, 2008)

How many actual led's does it take to get that effect? i mean can you diy? i had daisy chained some led's and it worked but how many are in those lights?
I went to a site that sells them for under a dollar a piece if anyones interested.
hxxp://www.superbrightleds.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=LEDS


----------



## mendo local (Dec 30, 2008)

LED's have been on the market for years, if they were any good Im sure we would all know about it. Waste of money in my opinion. They hype em all up to sound great but they are not.


----------



## ross (Dec 30, 2008)

the only reason i am considering them is because of the thousand watts of lighting i would have that would increase my bill by about 40%


----------



## Hick (Dec 30, 2008)

Alistair Young said:
			
		

> Ross, it's important to note that on that web page it states that in order to get the full spectrum of light necessary for maximum flower development, you need to purchase the upgraded Enhanced spectrum model.  Plus, it may or may not put out more light than a 1000 watt HID, but it only lights a 5'x5' area.  The average 400 watt HID will light a 5'x5' area as well.
> 
> If the led lights are really as good as the site says they are, then one day more people will start using them and the price will go down.  I'd wait for the price to go down before trying that out.  It does sound like a nice light though.


......
400 w hps = 50,000 L
5x5=25 sq/ft
50k into 25 sq.ft = 2,000 L per sq/ft
or less than half what is recommended as 'optimal'...and only 2/3 of what is recommended  as "minimum". (3,000 L. p/sq.ft.)


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 30, 2008)

ross said:
			
		

> Im sure most of you have heard of the LED UFO that is supposed to rival the 400 HPS, but i found out today that there is a 270W that is supposed to rival the 1000W HPS, so i was considering getting it because i did the math and it would actually be cheaper than going with the 1000W HPS after considering a year's electricity, has anyone used this light or heard good things?



IMO, this is just sales hype.  No, actually it is worse than that--it is really just not true.  I have yet to see an LED grow that came _anywhere close_ to what a HPS can produce.  Although LED technology may get there someday--they are not there yet.  And I don't even think they are close.

The bottom line is that there is _*no other light that produces like a HPS.  *_If you do not feel like you can afford to run a 1000W (but you can afford to spend $1000 on a light ), get a 250W or a 400W and size your grow space accordingly.  My 1000W and all the fans costs me less than $30 a month when I am running it 12/12.  and in the winter, the heat from the light is directed back into living space, so some of the energy is recaptured.


----------



## ross (Dec 30, 2008)

i would be using a 400W MH and a 600W HPS for 1000W total, i'm not considering using a 1000W HPS.


----------



## umbra (Dec 30, 2008)

I actually did an experiment with LEDs, cfl, and T5 fluoros. Used clones in soil, so are factor were as equal as possible. All worked. Leds had the shortest internode spacing as well as the smallest plants, also less developed when it was time to flower. Cfl did ok. But T5 won hands down. Still use the T5's instead of of MH. HPS for flowering all the way. I still believe that for some type of supplemental lighting they are worthwhile. Just my 2 cents


----------



## ross (Dec 30, 2008)

i did the math and after considering i wouldnt need a hood or extra cooling fan and the electricity for a year, going with the LED's would be cheaper than MH/HPS.  but it sounds too risky with all these negative comments about them.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 30, 2008)

umbra said:
			
		

> I actually did an experiment with LEDs, cfl, and T5 fluoros. Used clones in soil, so are factor were as equal as possible. All worked. Leds had the shortest internode spacing as well as the smallest plants, also less developed when it was time to flower. Cfl did ok. But T5 won hands down. Still use the T5's instead of of MH. HPS for flowering all the way. I still believe that for some type of supplemental lighting they are worthwhile. Just my 2 cents



I agree--the T5s work well for veg.  I have a 250W and a 400W MH that I do not use anymore (unless I *need* the heat that they provide).  And a HPS for flowering.  That is my 2 cents worth, too (so now is it our 4 cents worth? )


----------



## CasualGrower (Dec 30, 2008)

Only thing I veg under is 4ft Floro 2 bulb shoplights.... 40 watts a bulb...stick a couple side by side... can use a variety of bulbs for different Kelvins...


Flower under HPS all the way though


----------



## Growdude (Dec 30, 2008)

ross said:
			
		

> i did the math and after considering i wouldnt need a hood or extra cooling fan and the electricity for a year, going with the LED's would be cheaper than MH/HPS.  but it sounds too risky with all these negative comments about them.



Do you wanna save money or grow bud? If I dont have weed I buy it, the money wasted on buying weed has paid for all my equipment many times over.


----------



## godspeedsuckah (Dec 30, 2008)

LED's are for FRIGGING FLASHLIGHTS!!!!!! :hitchair: :doh: :shocked: :angrywife: :hairpull: :chuck: :chuck: :chuck: :chuck: :chuck:


----------



## whiterussian (Dec 30, 2008)

ross said:
			
		

> the only reason i am considering them is because of the thousand watts of lighting i would have that would increase my bill by about 40%


no it wont your crazy i run mine 18 hours a day with the ballest and i have about a 20-40 dollar increase, it doesnt take as much as you think and if you thinkg 20-40 dollars is a lot then you would be spending a lot more for something you dont need just get a 1000 watt hps/mh/ballest, all for cheaper then the LED, and it wouldnt cost as much as you think for the cost of running, people are all talk it doesnt cost that much at all.
good luck


----------



## Growdude (Dec 30, 2008)

whiterussian said:
			
		

> no it wont your crazy i run mine 18 hours a day with the ballest and i have about a 20-40 dollar increase, it doesnt take as much as you think and if you thinkg 20-40 dollars is a lot then you would be spending a lot more for something you dont need just get a 1000 watt hps/mh/ballest, all for cheaper then the LED, and it wouldnt cost as much as you think for the cost of running, people are all talk it doesnt cost that much at all.
> good luck



Maybe he meant 40% more than the LED'S

1000 watt light is easy to figure, every hour its on is a killowatt hour, check your bill to see what you are being charged per killowatt hour.


----------



## ross (Dec 30, 2008)

my last bill was a little under 1000 KWH, a 400W HPS @ 18/6 = 216 KWH, a 600W @ 12/12 = 216 KWH, so 432 KWH total, that's over a 40% power increase, not to mention fans.


----------



## godspeedsuckah (Dec 30, 2008)

What do you pay per kwh?


----------



## ross (Dec 30, 2008)

i pay like .1 but i'm worried about how much it increases, not how much money it costs.


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 30, 2008)

I really don't think 1000 watts is going to set off any sirens at the power company. Think about it, people get roommates, new tv's, computers etc all the time. A 42" plasma TV uses about 500 watts, a decent computer these days uses anywhere from 600 to 1000+ watts and alot of people leave them on 24/7.
I think you might be surprised how much power some households use, even without growing. 
Be cautious, but I wouldn't stress over 1000w. I started with a 400 and a 600 and 2 6" fans and our bill went up about $60.


----------



## Dr. Manny Bowles (Dec 30, 2008)

^^^^actually that was with a new dishwasher too:hubba:


----------



## BUDISGUD (Dec 30, 2008)

my kettle is 1300 watts  and i have 50 cups of tea a day


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Dec 30, 2008)

ross said:
			
		

> i pay like .1 but i'm worried about how much it increases, not how much money it costs.



You've got to be kidding--.01 per kWh!  You can run a 1000W light 12/12 and all the fans you will most likely need for under $5.00 a month.  I wouldn't be the least bit concerned if you have electrical costs that low.  You are not going to raise any eyebrows or cause any suspicion with a 1000W and extras.   There has got to be tons of people who literally waste huge amounts of power to be "comfortable" (keeping their homes extra warm in winter and way cool in summer) or because they are lazy (fail to turn too lights and other power consuming appliances/computers/TVs, etc)...


----------



## umbra (Dec 31, 2008)

I as at another site looking at this guys new setup. 6 x 1000w lamps. Hydro, chillers, fans. His other grow op has 10 x 600w. He's not raising any issues, and he's not stealing the power.


----------



## WeedHopper (Dec 31, 2008)

Im using a 4ft 6tube T5 setup(almost 30,000 lumens) @ 6500K and 8- 26 watt CFL's (12800 lumens)@ 6500K for Vegging and change tubes and bulbs to 3000K for Flower. I just put 3 in Flower today. My CFL's hang down toward the middle between the plants. And they love it. Its my 1st Inside Grow. Have learned much from many on this forum. OH and I have 8sf of grow space. Also have seperate chamber for Vegg. All CFL's 2x2 area.


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Dec 31, 2008)

Check out my journal on UFO LED's


----------



## HydroManiac (Dec 31, 2008)

they sell LED grow lights for 50 bucks on amazon


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Dec 31, 2008)

Many pros and cons to LED's...

NOTHING (so far) is better than a good ol' futurebrite 600w ballast with a hortilux 600w SUPER hps 95000 lumen bulb and a simple reflective hood.

90w LED UFO's Are awsome for sub canopy close up lighting. When you shine a ufo 1/2 way down the plant the buds grow as big as the top canopy buds. LITTERALY doubling the plant yield!  

I am doing an entire grow with 3 ufo's right now primary lighting. Its going ok. . 

As far as heat..the ufos are MUCH cooler and can be added to a grow with only 2 or 3 deg. temp rise at the most. Still need air though...the heat will build up. It just takes longer.


----------



## ross (Dec 31, 2008)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> You've got to be kidding--.01 per kWh!  You can run a 1000W light 12/12 and all the fans you will most likely need for under $5.00 a month.  I wouldn't be the least bit concerned if you have electrical costs that low.  You are not going to raise any eyebrows or cause any suspicion with a 1000W and extras.   There has got to be tons of people who literally waste huge amounts of power to be "comfortable" (keeping their homes extra warm in winter and way cool in summer) or because they are lazy (fail to turn too lights and other power consuming appliances/computers/TVs, etc)...


no, i mean 10 cents per KWH, (point one), one cent per KWH would be a ridiculously low price.  there is NO WAY you can run a 1000W HPS and fans for $5 a month.  my set up will add probably about $50.


----------



## umbra (Dec 31, 2008)

yes about $50 is correct. I don't think anyone would look at the bill and think anything of it. Time for some low anxiety indica.


----------



## Brouli (Dec 31, 2008)

OK  GUYS U KNOW WHAT I DID  i just got solar panels instal and i get check from power company with money (in last 2 moths) and i grow for freeeeeeeee!!!!
thru solar poer im running 1000watt hortilux with water cooling (cool tube) and im using water pump for that and all and i dont pay a cent, if u can get a sollar power doit yurself  get 3 180w panels hook em up on the roof and 400w light is free  God bless u all


----------



## godspeedsuckah (Dec 31, 2008)

Hey Brouli is there a link to more information on solar power. I have been really considering it and have a great setup for it.


----------



## umbra (Dec 31, 2008)

Designing a friends setup now...a few links to get you started
least expensive are amorphous cells, but take up more room.

hxxp://www.solarelectricsupply.com/systems/grid-tie/discount-gridtie.html
hxxp://www.brunton.com/product.php?id=256
hxxp://www.ecobusinesslinks.com/solar_panels.htm
hxxp://www.solarelectricsupply.com/systems/grid-tie/discount-gridtie.html
hxxp://www.findsolar.com/
hxxp://www.solarhome.org/solarhomekits.html

got links for wind power too


----------



## godspeedsuckah (Dec 31, 2008)

That is great umbra thank you, i will start my research now.


----------



## ross (Dec 31, 2008)

solar panels are way too expensive for me to consider.  i have looked at the wattstopper power strip though, and that seems like it could help a lot.


----------



## WeedHopper (Dec 31, 2008)

Brouli said:
			
		

> OK GUYS U KNOW WHAT I DID i just got solar panels instal and i get check from power company with money (in last 2 moths) and i grow for freeeeeeeee!!!!
> thru solar poer im running 1000watt hortilux with water cooling (cool tube) and im using water pump for that and all and i dont pay a cent, if u can get a sollar power doit yurself get 3 180w panels hook em up on the roof and 400w light is free  God bless u all


 
How long for the Solor Panels to pay for themselfs. Cause thats when it becomes free.


----------



## Brouli (Jan 1, 2009)

depends on the size ,couple of years i think , but i spend 2 years designeing my house so i staying here for atleast next 10 years


----------



## CallMeAFool2 (Jan 1, 2009)

Dirt people could not accept Hydroponics back in the day, Well, I am pretty sure all accept the fact that Hydro, Aero and ebb & flow are legit.  Same I head when T5 and Fluros, NO WAY.. we all know that outcome.  LEDs work, so much so I import them for sale. (no, no sales pitches) you will obviously never know who I am as a business.... I use both and I have just went into my first week of flowering on my second grow after some 35 years, as the last kid moved 18 months ago to college and I can be a kid again and not a responsible dad LOL....


----------



## Growdude (Jan 1, 2009)

CallMeAFool2 said:
			
		

> Dirt people could not accept Hydroponics back in the day, Well, I am pretty sure all accept the fact that Hydro, Aero and ebb & flow are legit.  Same I head when T5 and Fluros, NO WAY.. we all know that outcome.  LEDs work, so much so I import them for sale. (no, no sales pitches) you will obviously never know who I am as a business.... I use both and I have just went into my first week of flowering on my second grow after some 35 years, as the last kid moved 18 months ago to college and I can be a kid again and not a responsible dad LOL....




Well I'm hoping to see some big buds here.


----------



## ross (Jan 2, 2009)

no one is saying LED's dont work, it's just a matter of how well.  maybe LED's dont work as well as they should theoretically because the lights are in their infancy.


----------



## noneedforalarm (Jan 2, 2009)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I agree--the T5s work well for veg.  I have a 250W and a 400W MH that I do not use anymore (unless I *need* the heat that they provide).  And a HPS for flowering.  That is my 2 cents worth, too (so now is it our 4 cents worth? )


feel like coming off with one of those? hhahaha


----------



## ross (Jan 2, 2009)

if i'm going to be flowering with a 600W HPS how many 4' t5's would i want for veg, 6 or 8?


----------



## MiracleDro (Jan 2, 2009)

I use to veg under a 400 w mh and flower 8-12 plants under 3 600w hps. I now veg under four 54w fluoro 6500k and it has totally outperformed the 400 w mh with about half the watts. Maybe my 400 w bulb was old or somehting but it was a huge difference. They just looked way way happier vegging under the flouro.
If I had another spare room I would try some led setups but i just dont have the space right now. I think im gonna get my buddy to try it since he has the space and Ill write up a thread. Sorry I know my post didnt really help but I will try to do a comparison side by side with clonesat the same size so onlyy variable will be lighting.


----------



## CallMeAFool2 (Jan 2, 2009)

It is sad that old time growers, like the Hemp Goddess, who seems very very respectful and knowledgeable simple is wrong.

It is a FACT, that 80% as much as 82% of an HPS light DOES NOTHING for plants, NOTHING, it is science, not a myth.  LED lights do work, if you have real lights and not crap copies. Lights with BridgeLux/Cree chipsets and the proper Hi Intensity LEDs.  I am almost fearful into make this comment about such a trusted source as her and others, but I have only being growing my weed again for 18 months, but have been growing indoor gardens for years.  I cannot speak for what she or others used, but I can assure you they work and I am going to post the pictures in time to prove it.  THERE IS ALLOT OF JUNK OUT THERE. HTG Supply sells real and crap LEDs, you just cannot put a panel together with LEDs on them, right ones or not and not have the rest of the circuitry that pushes them

I too went away from MH two years or less ago for vegging. The WATTAGE, THE LUMES (which is all **, light makers tell you the overall LUMES and most we can see and most of that a plant cannot even use. Brighter does not mean better period). i am a novice with weed, I am not a novice with Lettuce, Maters, Okra, beans, Grape tomato's I fruit all year long and love them. herbs and spices for my wife.  I use Pioneer VI 4 footers and all BLUE LED UFO 90s to do all my vegging anymore. Why they like it, is you are providing what they want, not blinding them with what they cannot use.  I was as skeptical as most, someone had to GIVE me a 1st generation UFO to even get me to think about it. I was wrong and I admit it. growing is so subjective, there are good and not so good results from cycle to cycle no matter what you use and if you do not understand how to use ANY Light, have we all not learned with each grow how to do it different the next time, I surely have for years.  I am not in love with LED, I am however sure real grow lights of LED work and work well, with all but no heat, no need for ducts blowers, fans and all the stuff you buy to make it all go together. The price of a plug up and use for 8-10 years from enviornmental chamber testing to excelerate life spans, anyone who thinks they can buy ballasts, lights, reflectors, blowers, chillers, duct work and a UFO cost more, really do not remember what you have spent.  If all you have is a closet and you hung some mylar and do it in the dirt, it will take you a little longer to see the savings.  Off my soap box, I am not here to defend LEDs, just give you my experience.  I sell them all, please do keep buying the traditional stuff, i am sitting on 100K worth of it HA HA.....LOL

I do not have 15 posts, so I cannot put in the pictures I uploaded to the LIghts forum, go there to see subject LED UFO DO THEY WORK


----------



## WeedHopper (Jan 2, 2009)

CallMeAFool2 said:
			
		

> It is sad that old time growers, like the Hemp Goddess, who seems very very respectful and knowledgeable simple is wrong.
> 
> It is a FACT, that 80% as much as 82% of an HPS light DOES NOTHING for plants, NOTHING, it is science, not a myth. LED lights do work, if you have real lights and not crap copies. Lights with BridgeLux/Cree chipsets and the proper Hi Intensity LEDs. I am almost fearful into make this comment about such a trusted source as her and others, but I have only being growing my weed again for 18 months, but have been growing indoor gardens for years. I cannot speak for what she or others used, but I can assure you they work and I am going to post the pictures in time to prove it. THERE IS ALLOT OF JUNK OUT THERE. HTG Supply sells real and crap LEDs, you just cannot put a panel together with LEDs on them, right ones or not and not have the rest of the circuitry that pushes them
> 
> I too went away from MH two years or less ago for vegging. The WATTAGE, THE LUMES (which is all **, light makers tell you the overall LUMES and most we can see and most of that a plant cannot even use. Brighter does not mean better period). i am a novice with weed, I am not a novice with Lettuce, Maters, Okra, beans, Grape tomato's I fruit all year long and love them. herbs and spices for my wife. I use Pioneer VI 4 footers and all BLUE LED UFO 90s to do all my vegging anymore. Why they like it, is you are providing what they want, not blinding them with what they cannot use. I was as skeptical as most, someone had to GIVE me a 1st generation UFO to even get me to think about it. I was wrong and I admit it. growing is so subjective, there are good and not so good results from cycle to cycle no matter what you use and if you do not understand how to use ANY Light, have we all not learned with each grow how to do it different the next time, I surely have for years. I am not in love with LED, I am however sure real grow lights of LED work and work well, with all but no heat, no need for ducts blowers, fans and all the stuff you buy to make it all go together. The price of a plug up and use for 8-10 years from enviornmental chamber testing to excelerate life spans, anyone who thinks they can buy ballasts, lights, reflectors, blowers, chillers, duct work and a UFO cost more, really do not remember what you have spent. If all you have is a closet and you hung some mylar and do it in the dirt, it will take you a little longer to see the savings. Off my soap box, I am not here to defend LEDs, just give you my experience. I sell them all, please do keep buying the traditional stuff, i am sitting on 100K worth of it HA HA.....LOL


 

82% of the light is lost? Where did you get that info? Can you please post that for us to see please.


----------



## CallMeAFool2 (Jan 2, 2009)

I cannot post URLs as I do not have 15 Posts, just go read, search out in google, you will find all you need about HPS lights. I will cut and paste it here, but anyone can type anything, so please just do some SCIENCE research about LED, HPS lighting.

-----------------------------------------
LUMENS AND GROW LIGHTS
Carl Sagan made an interesting point when he said, &#8221; We live in a society exquisitely dependant on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.&#8221; In the world of lighting- this is most evident in the use of lumens as a standard for measuring the output of grow lighting. We&#8217;re talking about measuring light in relation to a candle&#8217;s flame. As defined by Wikipedia: &#8220;The lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI unit of luminous flux, a measure of the perceived power of light.&#8221; Lumens and Lux, by definition, are used to measure how bright a light source appears to the human eye- or what we perceive as bright. Although it has become common-place for grow light manufacturers to rate their grow light output in Lumens, they are only telling you how bright their light will appear to you and light your room, not how well it will grow your plants. Since the human eye is most sensitive to colors plants don&#8217;t need, and least sensitive to colors plants prefer, Lumens can&#8217;t be used to accurately compare the plant growing capability of grow lights. Light comes in many colors, or wavelengths. To the human eye, the colors green and yellow appear much brighter than the colors red and blue which are the primary colors used by plants for photosynthesis. HID, incandescent, and fluorescent lighting were all originally designed to light rooms. The manufacturers took these bulbs and added bits of impurities to get more of the colors that plants need and labeled them &#8220;grow lights&#8221;. As much as 82% of the light coming out of these traditional light sources is not absorbed by plants or is in the form of UV, or IR (heat). HID lighting can reach temperatures of over fourteen hundred degrees Fahrenheit at the bulbs surface. This excess heat is then ventilated and directly translates into wasted energy that is included in a lumen rating. In 2002, the engineers at Solar Oasis introduced the world&#8217;s first patented LED grow light. LEDs offered a unique opportunity to the designers. Instead of starting with an existing lamp designed to light rooms for people- the LED grow lamp designer can select LEDs that generate exactly the colors of light needed to target wavelengths that are needed for plant growth. Designers are able to add as many colors as they would like and add them in their proper proportion. Finally, the individual LEDs can be arranged in whatever pattern desired to create the final lamp design. By leaving out colors of light that are useful for human vision but not useful for plant growth, incredible levels of efficiency are attained in comparison to other types of grow lights. With this modern lighting- comes modern measurement. A typical grow light produces light wavelengths from 380nm (UV), up to and beyond 880nm (IR). Plants use light wavelengths from 400nm (blue) to 700nm (red). The most accurate unit of measurement for comparing grow lights is the micro Einstein, which measures how many photons of light strike an area per second. Using the micro Einstein we are able to measure how much useable light is emitted (aka wavelengths that fall between 400-700nm). But, while this is a much better way to estimate a lamp&#8217;s plant growing ability than Lumens or Lux, it is still very difficult to directly compare two different types of grow lights. All grow lights except the LED Grow Master grow light emit large amounts of light plants don&#8217;t use very efficiently, so including that light output in a light&#8217;s plant growing measurement is misleading. To those of you that feel like this is all Greek, an analogy&#8230; What is now called an inch was originally the width of a man&#8217;s thumb. The word carat comes from the weight standard for precious metals of the olden days- the carob bean. We promise not to send you bar measurements in thumb widths, or the weight in carob bean. Along these same lines, we do not measure our output in lumens. We understand the need for, and beauty, of accurate measurement. Human View


----------



## pimpdaddycoolz (Jan 2, 2009)

Hahaha i asked the guy at the hydro shop one time about these...

i quote "I wont sell that Sh*t in my shop! That's ripping off my customers!"


----------



## pimpdaddycoolz (Jan 2, 2009)

And call me a fool has the perfect name to match his post. dude no disrespect but if you did any research on actual output, HPS blows LED'S out of the WATER. SCIENTIFIC proof may say that hps puts out 82% wasted light, if thats true, that sucks. But LEDS do nothing for plants. Nothing. If a T5 can grow a plant better, then there is something seriously wrong (not to say that T5's are a bad light source).

Its not about scientific research, its about proven experiments. The LEDS may put out the exact spectrum of light neccesary for growth, but they do not put out NEARLY enough. Again, thats why everyone here uses HPS as opposed to LED's, because they DONT WORK like an HPS does.


----------



## HydroManiac (Jan 2, 2009)

actually LEDs are suppose to be cheaper but since there a new technology there over pricing them New Car lights are actually using LED technology


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 3, 2009)

pimpdaddycoolz said:
			
		

> Its not about scientific research, its about proven experiments. The LEDS may put out the exact spectrum of light neccesary for growth, but they do not put out NEARLY enough. Again, thats why everyone here uses HPS as opposed to LED's, because they DONT WORK like an HPS does.


 
I have NEVER heard a more worthless ignorant comment as that!!! You probabaly never even seen an LED or a UFO. You want two good examples of LED growth...

1) My grow journal (link below)
2) http://www.greenpinelane.com/ufo_light_test.aspx (tomato's journal)

I am tired of worthless second hand garbage hear say information like that!! From now on you should start ALL your posts with a truthfull comment: "I once knew a guy who had a friend that was told by his brother that he overheard a lady tell her neighbor that she knew a worker that told her....."

I searched the forum...I dont see any "scientific research" or "proven experiments" with your name on them...

Yes...you hit a nerve....

NO..I am not sorry...


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 3, 2009)

pimpdaddycoolz said:
			
		

> Hahaha i asked the guy at the hydro shop one time about these...
> 
> i quote "I wont sell that Sh*t in my shop! That's ripping off my customers!"


 
I wonder what his profit margin for HID's was and how it compared to the LED's!!! He makes more money of the initial sale of the HID ballast, than bulb, than spare bulb, than hood, extra fans, cooling system.... 6 months later your back for some new bulbs and to replace the burnt out ascolating fan....2 years later your igniter is out in your ballast..youll need a new one...

Ofcourse he wont sell LED's...He'll loose too much money!

Hey Pimpdaddy.....I got a car I want to sell you...You can trust me. I work behind the counter...


----------



## Growdude (Jan 3, 2009)

Enough arguing over it.

Show me the buds!


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 3, 2009)

Hey, we will have no flaming here. There is no reason to call others "ignorant".  The debate over HIDs, LEDs, and fluoros will continue.  And it is just that, a debate.  

So, everyone just load a bowl, sit back, and relax.


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 3, 2009)

CallMeAFool2 said:
			
		

> It is sad that old time growers, like the Hemp Goddess, who seems very very respectful and knowledgeable simple is wrong.



LOL--well you seem to be running a 1200W HPS grow--3-400W HPS ?????

http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=36094


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 3, 2009)

CallMeAFool2 said:
			
		

> I cannot post URLs as I do not have 15 Posts, just go read, search out in google, you will find all you need about HPS lights. I will cut and paste it here, but anyone can type anything, so please just do some SCIENCE research about LED, HPS lighting.
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> LUMENS AND GROW LIGHTS
> Carl Sagan made an interesting point when he said, &#8221; We live in a society exquisitely dependant on science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science and technology.&#8221; In the world of lighting- this is most evident in the use of lumens as a standard for measuring the output of grow lighting. We&#8217;re talking about measuring light in relation to a candle&#8217;s flame. As defined by Wikipedia: &#8220;The lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI unit of luminous flux, a measure of the perceived power of light.&#8221; Lumens and Lux, by definition, are used to measure how bright a light source appears to the human eye- or what we perceive as bright. Although it has become common-place for grow light manufacturers to rate their grow light output in Lumens, they are only telling you how bright their light will appear to you and light your room, not how well it will grow your plants. Since the human eye is most sensitive to colors plants don&#8217;t need, and least sensitive to colors plants prefer, Lumens can&#8217;t be used to accurately compare the plant growing capability of grow lights. Light comes in many colors, or wavelengths. To the human eye, the colors green and yellow appear much brighter than the colors red and blue which are the primary colors used by plants for photosynthesis. HID, incandescent, and fluorescent lighting were all originally designed to light rooms. The manufacturers took these bulbs and added bits of impurities to get more of the colors that plants need and labeled them &#8220;grow lights&#8221;. As much as 82% of the light coming out of these traditional light sources is not absorbed by plants or is in the form of UV, or IR (heat). HID lighting can reach temperatures of over fourteen hundred degrees Fahrenheit at the bulbs surface. This excess heat is then ventilated and directly translates into wasted energy that is included in a lumen rating. In 2002, the engineers at Solar Oasis introduced the world&#8217;s first patented LED grow light. LEDs offered a unique opportunity to the designers. Instead of starting with an existing lamp designed to light rooms for people- the LED grow lamp designer can select LEDs that generate exactly the colors of light needed to target wavelengths that are needed for plant growth. Designers are able to add as many colors as they would like and add them in their proper proportion. Finally, the individual LEDs can be arranged in whatever pattern desired to create the final lamp design. By leaving out colors of light that are useful for human vision but not useful for plant growth, incredible levels of efficiency are attained in comparison to other types of grow lights. With this modern lighting- comes modern measurement. A typical grow light produces light wavelengths from 380nm (UV), up to and beyond 880nm (IR). Plants use light wavelengths from 400nm (blue) to 700nm (red). The most accurate unit of measurement for comparing grow lights is the micro Einstein, which measures how many photons of light strike an area per second. Using the micro Einstein we are able to measure how much useable light is emitted (aka wavelengths that fall between 400-700nm). But, while this is a much better way to estimate a lamp&#8217;s plant growing ability than Lumens or Lux, it is still very difficult to directly compare two different types of grow lights. All grow lights except the LED Grow Master grow light emit large amounts of light plants don&#8217;t use very efficiently, so including that light output in a light&#8217;s plant growing measurement is misleading. To those of you that feel like this is all Greek, an analogy&#8230; What is now called an inch was originally the width of a man&#8217;s thumb. The word carat comes from the weight standard for precious metals of the olden days- the carob bean. We promise not to send you bar measurements in thumb widths, or the weight in carob bean. Along these same lines, we do not measure our output in lumens. We understand the need for, and beauty, of accurate measurement. Human View


 
:ignore: :ignore: :ignore: :ignore:   Too much to read, but I just really cant believe that 80% is lost in a HPS, your the first person ive ever heard to say such a thing, and the hemp goddess has been growing a lot longer then you and actully has PROOF of her grows, so as everyone has said wheres your proof, lets see those fat buds your talking about that your growing, maybe your the one who doesnt know what there talking about not the hemp goddess


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 3, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> I have NEVER heard a more worthless ignorant comment as that!!! You probabaly never even seen an LED or a UFO. You want two good examples of LED growth...
> 
> 1) My grow journal (link below)
> 2) http://www.greenpinelane.com/ufo_light_test.aspx (tomato's journal)
> ...


Hey maybe you and call me a fool can go live on a deserted island and grow your own plants using LEDS and UFOS LOL!


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 3, 2009)

It seems that people like to "make up stuff" and say that it is the opinion of all. I see it in forums everywhere. Every once in a while one gets in here too, like pimpdaddy there. He has NEVER seen an LED or a UFO and yet has an opinion. Was not the topic to be discussed by people that have actualy seen or used LED's? I reread my post from lastnite and it was harsh..I apologize for the word "ignorant". I am sorry. I will not apologize for singling out a "player" with bad information. These bad apples cause people to make bad descisions. There should be a button down by the "thanks" button that you can press to "reject" a post as well when bad information is posted.


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 3, 2009)

whiterussian said:
			
		

> Hey maybe you and call me a fool can go live on a deserted island and grow your own plants using LEDS and UFOS LOL!


 
See CRAP like that!! This an informational thread.. Not the coffee table or chat room.


----------



## Vegs (Jan 3, 2009)

I tell you what! Once the 'new car smell' wears off and the prices drop significantly, I will be buying me some LED's to save money on electricity and just to play with them in general. =)


----------



## SmokeyTheBear (Jan 3, 2009)

There is need to fight over what light works better then others  LED lights are not that new to growing. But due to the cost of them, you do not hear many people useing them  My biology class in high school used them them to grow soy beans about 7 years back. But to the people that are useing them I thank you  Much more info is needed to determine what is the best light to use. But as of now MH/HPS is the best due to the cost. Maybe when a UFO gets down to say $150 bucks, then it will be more cost effective. But even then it still wont be a huge drop in your electric bill. Is it really that big of a deal to spend $60 more bucks on the electric bill to get the biggest buds you can get? I say no.

As far to say that 82% of the light from a HPS light goes to waste  I would have to disagree with that  The only way that where to happen is if you get the wrong color spectrum light. Different light is need in different times of groth. I hope we all know that


----------



## WeedHopper (Jan 3, 2009)

I agree Smoky. As for LED growing Soy,,that doesnt surprise me. Sould be able to use them on small(short)crops. Not much canopy to penatrate,,and they have the right spectrum,,,BUT,,just not enough of it to make worth the money from what I have seen.But then again I dont know ****.


----------



## leafminer (Jan 3, 2009)

Rather than opinion I prefer science. For starters here is a very useful page for finding hard science facts about LEDs: hXXp://members.misty.com/don/led.html

If you assume the use of the very best LED's - white have the most efficiency - then it is 80 lumens/watt. So to compare this with a 400HPS, we'd input 400 watts to the LEDs and get 32,000 lumens. And the HPS would run around 50,000 lumens. Not to mention the fact that the 400W to the LEDs is actual LED power, and does not include the wasted power in the current source (similar to the wasted power in the ballast of a HPS)
So to anyone who tells me LEDs are more efficient ... I say ... oh yeah? Show me the figures!


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 3, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> It seems that people like to "make up stuff" and say that it is the opinion of all. I see it in forums everywhere. Every once in a while one gets in here too, like pimpdaddy there. He has NEVER seen an LED or a UFO and yet has an opinion. Was not the topic to be discussed by people that have actualy seen or used LED's? I reread my post from lastnite and it was harsh..I apologize for the word "ignorant". I am sorry. I will not apologize for singling out a "player" with bad information. These bad apples cause people to make bad descisions. There should be a button down by the "thanks" button that you can press to "reject" a post as well when bad information is posted.


Well then go make your own marijuana forum, and tell everyone to grow with UFOS and make a "Reject" button


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 3, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> See CRAP like that!! This an informational thread.. Not the coffee table or chat room.


Just stop talking bro, im not crap, ive obviously gathered enough info to know when someone is full of crap


----------



## pimpdaddycoolz (Jan 3, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> I have NEVER heard a more worthless ignorant comment as that!!! You probabaly never even seen an LED or a UFO. You want two good examples of LED growth...
> 
> 1) My grow journal (link below)
> 2) http://www.greenpinelane.com/ufo_light_test.aspx (tomato's journal)
> ...






...... HAHAHAHAHA!!!! Man i've been feeling pretty crappy lately but that made my day..... whooo.... HAHHAHA IM STILL CRACKIN UP!!!!

Dude relax a little bit! Its my opinion mon!!!!!! You can call me ignorant thats fine, but i have seen with my own eyes the difference between grows using LED's and HPS and there was no comparison. Im not saying the UFO's dont do the job, so put your panties back on...

All im saying is that if you want GREAT output and not just OKAY, id personally go with the HPS.

Dont take it to the heart man! your getting yourself too worked up! hahahaha But i do give my thanks to the fellow members, like HEMPGODDES and WHITERUSSIAN for agreeing with me. Its not a contest. It was a question! Whats better? lets be honest! HPS is! So its more expensive? whats it worth to you? the best of the best or electricity cost? 

Hope your anger issue has gotten better since your post! :hubba:


----------



## 84VW (Jan 3, 2009)

i was browsing some more led stuff and came up with an interesting grow that actually compares his led grow to his hps grow

hxxp://www.breedbay.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=201338902&highlight=leds


----------



## 84VW (Jan 3, 2009)

hps showed chunkier buds but leds showed much much more trichomes and an overall nicer looking plant

figured i'd share


----------



## pimpdaddycoolz (Jan 3, 2009)

i got this off a website that talked about NASA's use of LED's. The website has a PRO's and Con's list. Here's what i got. "LEDs can be calibrated to emit only the light most efficient for the plants, but not all the light plants need." with that said, HPS delivers all parts of the visible spectrum, closely immitating the sun.

"in time LEDs efficiency will be maximized while prices reduced" with THAT said, Led's are not a terrible choice by any means. I think that if you retrofitted your whole grow room with LED's then you would get a fantastic output. But its simply too expensive, and does not produce ALL of the wavelengths required for correct growth. (again, not saying that the plants wont turn out okay, just not as well as if you had ALL of the spectrums involved)


They just DONT quite put out like a HPS yet. Its fact.


----------



## 84VW (Jan 4, 2009)

im cheap and broke so i picked up a cheaper led setup, it works fantastic for vegging but does not penetrate for flowering..now, im not saying thats all leds, thats just what i have to work with


----------



## Rogue (Jan 4, 2009)

It looks like in my absence the debate has gotten ugly on both sides.

Everyone stop take a breath then smoke a bowl and while you are at it take a hit for me (since i can not right now). This site is not about belittling others and pushing their buttons. It is for trading information and expanding everyone's knowledge base about all things MJ. 

There is mis-information going on on both sides. I am going to start by addressing what is being ill reported about HPS lights:
1. A 1000 Watt lamp does not produce 1000 Watts of light. It draws a 1000 watts of electricity to produce light.
2. At 22% efficiency a HPS lamp is one of the most efficient means of producing light visible to the human eye, but that does not mean that it produces the best colored light for growing efficiently.
3. 780 Watts of energy used by a 1000 Watt HPS lamp does nothing but produce heat.
4. An additional 100 to 800 Watts of energy are lost as heat for each 1000 Watt HPS lamp by its ballast. So that means for every 220 Watts of light energy produced between 880 and 1580 watts of energy are turned into heat by the lamps ballast and bulb.(the range is due to the efficiency of the various types of ballasts out there)
5. HPS lamps are currently the best choice of lamps to flower MJ under due to her unique needs.

Now for LEDs:
1. LED growlights are at nothing more than an experimental stage for growing MJ. They work very well for leafy plants like lettuce, herbs (the kind you cook with), grasses (the kind you walk on) and many other plants, but do not produce the OMG type of results that Ads and websites lead you to believe that you will get with MJ.
2. The 90 Watt UFO = 400 Watt HPS comparison. This is a bit of snake oil salesmanship. What they are saying if you read everything they publish carefully is that the 90 Watt UFO is producing the same amount of RED and BLUE as the RED and BLUE light produced by a 400W HPS. Anyone with experience growing MJ knows you need more than just red and blue to produce big healthy buds of MJ.
3. LEDs do produce heat. They just are more efficient at producing light than heat. HPS require heat to operate. LEDs produce heat due to operation. In my experiments one of the $20 150 Watt HPS lights (384 Watts including ballast) produced more total heat than my 215 Watt LED board and its power supply. 
4. LEDs show great promise at producing a perfect grow light due to their ability to target the exact color of light desired, BUT as of yet no perfect LED grow light for MJ has yet to be produced.
5. LEDs should only be used to grow by those who want to play mad scientist and have plenty of money to bank roll their experiments. The technology is unproven, costly and can leave you with only small amounts of varying quality buds.

I have done both the research and hands on experimentation to back up all of the above. If you have any questions or would like to debate any of it I would be happy to do so in a civil manner.


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 4, 2009)

"2. The 90 Watt UFO = 400 Watt HPS comparison. This is a bit of snake oil salesmanship. What they are saying if you read everything they publish carefully is that the 90 Watt UFO is producing the same amount of RED and BLUE as the RED and BLUE light produced by a 400W HPS. Anyone with experience growing MJ knows you need more than just red and blue to produce big healthy buds of MJ."

What do you mean "you need more than red/blue"?


----------



## Rogue (Jan 4, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> "2. The 90 Watt UFO = 400 Watt HPS comparison. This is a bit of snake oil salesmanship. What they are saying if you read everything they publish carefully is that the 90 Watt UFO is producing the same amount of RED and BLUE as the RED and BLUE light produced by a 400W HPS. Anyone with experience growing MJ knows you need more than just red and blue to produce big healthy buds of MJ."
> 
> What do you mean "you need more than red/blue"?



What I mean is is exactly that. 

MJ needs a little 700nm (near infrared)during flowering to produce lots of big buds. The 700nm as well as photoperiod both help production of the chemical transmitters that help the plant bud. Light energy between 580nm(yellow/green) and 630nm(orange) also are very beneficial in bud production.

The 475nm and 670nm light used in LED growlights target photosynthesis in clorophyl. MJ has evolved under our sun (see light read out below) and because it has it uses most of the available light from 380nm-730nm to produce energy and other chemicals and triggers. Giving a MJ plant just blue and red will not kill it or prevent it from going through its' life cycle (MJ is very adaptable), but it will not make the MJ reach its full potential. 

Using just red and blue light to grow MJ is like growing a human with nothing more than Coca Cola and Tofu. All the right elements are there for basic survival but don't count on growing an olympic athelete or anyone else outstanding.

In order to grow really good MJ in good quantities the plant needs exposure to more wavelengths than just the red and blue of chlorophyl. If attempting to produce a grow light of your own aim for the PAR light curve as much research has gone into that spectrum read out, in order to maximize light output to plant growth.


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 4, 2009)

Rogue said:
			
		

> What I mean is is exactly that.
> 
> MJ needs a little 700nm (near infrared)during flowering to produce lots of big buds. The 700nm as well as photoperiod both help production of the chemical transmitters that help the plant bud. Light energy between 580nm(yellow/green) and 630nm(orange) also are very beneficial in bud production.
> 
> ...


Ok so in other words, the HPS would be a better choice for growing marijuana? yes or no??


----------



## TheEnhancementSmoker (Jan 4, 2009)

whiterussian said:
			
		

> Ok so in other words, the HPS would be a better choice for growing marijuana? yes or no??


Read the post he made before the one you quoted..."HPS lamps are currently the best choice of lamps to flower MJ under due to her unique needs."


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 4, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> Ignorant fool


as i said before go make your own marijuana forum, no one needs your attitude, your like a little girl, were all here to help eachother grow, not you telling people whats wrong and whats right, you obviously havnt done research and instead of prooving us all wrong, and showing us some pics of your UFO grows, you sit here and complaign, and talk crap, GTFO


----------



## The Hemp Goddess (Jan 4, 2009)

Things are getting ugly again.  Just stop it!  

*There is no reason to call each other ignorant.*


----------



## WeedHopper (Jan 4, 2009)

Just a question. WHY do people fight over this LED light thing so much. I mean,,aint none of those Light Companies paying anybody a dime of thier profits. I say to each his own,,but untill the LED guys are paying good money for your Loyalty,,I dont get how its worth arguing over. Hell just go grow some good Bud with the LEDs and smoke a bowl.


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 4, 2009)

whiterussian said:
			
		

> as i said before go make your own marijuana forum, no one needs your attitude, your like a little girl, were all here to help eachother grow, not you telling people whats wrong and whats right, you obviously havnt done research and instead of prooving us all wrong, and showing us some pics of your UFO grows, you sit here and complaign, and talk crap, GTFO


 
I will GLADLY share pics and notes of grows. 

4 to 6 plants flowered in 3 1/2gal. buckets
Strawberry Cough from clone

2007 3 grows w/ 400w mh
2008 1 grows w/ 600w hps
1 grow w/ 600w shps and One UFO 
1 grow 50/50 HID-LED w/ 600w shps and 3 ufos

Current: 1 grow 100% LED w/ 3 ufo's (2nd gen) and 4 mini ufo's (15w) that are not yet available for the public in the US (only China)

Other: 
1 grow Greenpine's "tomater" Journal compairing a 600w mh to a UFO (1st Gen)

2 grows comparing a 600w hps to 2 Ufo's (1st gen)

3 different grows posted by Jorge Cervantes Him Self....

I keep good notes and experiment with the same breed, same medium and same number of plants...

Ok...so lets get to comparing notes....

You first my secondhand information gathering friend....

It gets me when people post hearsay and than stand behind it like they were the ones who concluded the results themselves....

Also, only an uneducated person would find the word ignorant offensive as that is the words true meaning. If you are offended than I appologize. For instance, my spelling is ignorant. I could use spell check but we are all stoners, so who cares if I cant spell. Thats ignorant, considering I will some day be writing a book on them, referencing this information. As well as importing them and building my own LED boards for market when I find myself satisfied with a good LED grow. 

I attempted to attach some pictures but the site recognized them as already published in my grow journal.


----------



## Growdude (Jan 4, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> I attempted to attach some pictures but the site recognized them as already published in my grow journal.



I looked at your journal but no buds, I want to see some finished product.

If LED;s cant grow comparable buds then what the point of them?


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 4, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> I will GLADLY share pics and notes of grows.
> 
> 4 to 6 plants flowered in 3 1/2gal. buckets
> Strawberry Cough from clone
> ...


yeah show some finished product you've been talking about your notes and information. ON WITH THE PICS


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 4, 2009)

LOL....There are cures hanging in several pics...

Sounds like your caught with your pants down...no pics or notes..or grow journals...or links...but you have all the information....

If I'm too baked to argue right now than I guess LED's grow some pretty damnd good pot.


----------



## TheEnhancementSmoker (Jan 5, 2009)

Growdude said:
			
		

> I looked at your journal but no buds, I want to see some finished product.</p>
> 
> If LED;s cant grow comparable buds then what the point of them?


This thread reminds me of that commercial for the Toyota Tundra truck.  Basically the guy is saying that they made the F150 have the same horsepower as the Tundra, and like the Chevy truck they made have the same towing capacity.  Anyway, they list all these trucks that have been made to match the Tundra, and eventually he says "I just bought a Tundra."What I'm getting as is, it's highly debatable that the LEDs even match HIDs, so why not just buy HIDs?


----------



## Growdude (Jan 5, 2009)

TheEnhancementSmoker said:
			
		

> This thread reminds me of that commercial for the Toyota Tundra truck.  Basically the guy is saying that they made the F150 have the same horsepower as the Tundra, and like the Chevy truck they made have the same towing capacity.  Anyway, they list all these trucks that have been made to match the Tundra, and eventually he says "I just bought a Tundra."What I'm getting as is, it's highly debatable that the LEDs even match HIDs, so why not just buy HIDs?



I want to compare, but so far have seen nothing to compare them too.

I have HPS but am interested in seeing what they can do, perhaps for a small scale grow.


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 5, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> LOL....There are cures hanging in several pics...
> 
> Sounds like your caught with your pants down...no pics or notes..or grow journals...or links...but you have all the information....
> 
> If I'm too baked to argue right now than I guess LED's grow some pretty damnd good pot.


 
well i got 7 females growing under a 1000 watt HPS i will have bud shots in 3 weeks or so, we will compare the pics of the buds once mine is harvested,dryed, and cured


----------



## KADE (Jan 5, 2009)

Since i have a few extra posts compared to some others i'll post my opinion.
Until LEDs put out MORE light... so I dont have to put the damned things 2" from my plants all the time. I'm not touching them. Too much maintenence. 
I've seen (with my own eyes) first hand some good vegging come from LEDs. But the buds were quite frankly not even close to par. Give me as many HPSs as I can fit into a room without burning the house down anyday!

I think LEDs might be suited for a scrog type grow... so u can keep em nice and close.


----------



## 84VW (Jan 5, 2009)

Growdude said:
			
		

> I want to compare, but so far have seen nothing to compare them too.
> 
> I have HPS but am interested in seeing what they can do, perhaps for a small scale grow.



growdude, if your interested i did post a link a page or two back with a comparison between hps and leds but it got buried by yelling

*here, i found it

"i was browsing some more led stuff and came up with an interesting grow that actually compares his led grow to his hps grow"

hxxp://www.breedbay.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=201338902&highlight=leds


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 5, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> OK it has got to be said...
> 
> You are so ignorant and you waste so much space here you cloud forums with wastefull posts like this. You totaly miss the point. We are NOT comparing the HID's ability to grow big buds to the LED. WE are comparing its stealth and energy consumption. Than looking ahead to tweeking its flaws!!
> 
> Please go away.


Thats what people have been asking you about we want pics but you fail to post any, no one cares if it has stealth and low energy use, what everyone cares about and why we are all here IS FOR THE BUD, not your stupid comments, you have sounded like an idiot since you started talking, listen to you, pull up your skirt, your snatch is showing.


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 5, 2009)

84VW said:
			
		

> growdude, if your interested i did post a link a page or two back with a comparison between hps and leds but it got buried by yelling
> 
> *here, i found it
> 
> ...


i don't see anything comparing the two, just him saying he grew plants under LEDS all the pics are X's and nothing regarding HPS


----------



## Growdude (Jan 5, 2009)

whiterussian said:
			
		

> i don't see anything comparing the two, just him saying he grew plants under LEDS all the pics are X's and nothing regarding HPS



Yea no pics at all    but thxs anyway


----------



## cadlakmike1 (Jan 5, 2009)

LED vs HID 
Watch the LED stretch in flower.
Same time vegging and they even let the LED flower longer to catch up.
I'm not saying this is definitive proof, but all the experiments i've seen side by side have ended the same way, and yes I do know people who use LED's. I believe that when LED's are readily available for a reasonable amount of money they will have a strong future in growing, but as it stands now with the technology in it's infancy it's just not a realistic alternative to HID. Can plants be grown with LED's, of course they can, but will a comparable setup of led's outperform HID, no they will not. That's my .02. 

Check out the link!

hxxp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CtROw3uiVg

(change xx to tt)

You may have to create a quick account to prove you are over 18, it's fast and easy.


----------



## 84VW (Jan 5, 2009)

the pics must've got taken down....a few pages into that he compares his hps grow to his led grow with the same exact strain....


----------



## 84VW (Jan 5, 2009)

i just checked page one and every picture works and half way down the page he has pictures comparing his hps buds to his led buds....maybe im some sort of god that can make pictures appear??

or you might have to be a registered user on the forum to see them?   i dont know

either way, its all here


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 5, 2009)

84VW said:
			
		

> i just checked page one and every picture works and half way down the page he has pictures comparing his hps buds to his led buds....maybe im some sort of god that can make pictures appear??
> 
> or you might have to be a registered user on the forum to see them? i dont know
> 
> either way, its all here


Well what did he say?? HPS or LED, and even if he said HPS or LED thats only 1 person so its really not as relyable as MP


----------



## 84VW (Jan 5, 2009)

honestly if anyone is interested in getting real info with no bickering just straight info check out breedbay, there is a specific led lighting section

what did he say?  read it, dont read it...it doesnt matter, im not participating in anything led related on here anymore

Have a great day


----------



## cadlakmike1 (Jan 5, 2009)

Anyone watch the video I posted the link to?


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 5, 2009)

cadlakmike1 said:
			
		

> Anyone watch the video I posted the link to?


Yes thats why northernlights stopped talking


----------



## KADE (Jan 6, 2009)

If i was a mod i woulda deleted this thread ages ago... or delete a user. =)


----------



## cadlakmike1 (Jan 6, 2009)

Interesting comparison wasn't it? Don't they usually compare the UFO to a 400 watt HPS? I would have liked to see the final yield if they didn't give the LED side a chance to catch up.

I would also be really interested to see a micro LST grow using LED's, I think this would work well and probably give similar results to HID being that canopy penetration isn't as important in that situation. 

Like I said earlier, I like LED's and think they have a strong future in growing, I just don't think they are there yet. I have seen other vegetables successfully grown under LED's but nothing that gets tall or has a canopy that need penetrated for better results. I've seen beans and cabbage and lettuce grown with excellent results with LED's but they are such a smaller plant it does make a difference.

I hope this thread continues because I have read some really interesting information here, we don't need to call names or yell. Anyone can show why something should theoretically should work on paper, but it needs to be implemented and proved. I was interested to read how much wasted light comes off of my MH and HPS but I just cut almost 2 ounces off one 24" plant (400w MH and HPS), if I'm wasting light I would be amazed to see what a 100% efficient light would be capable of.

I love to see new advancements in this field that I love. Who knows what technology will be out in ten years from now. I hope that MH and HPS is considered outdated and that some new light will emerge that is efficient, powerful, cheap and doesn't put off heat. Maybe it will be LED's, maybe not, I guess we will have to wait and see.

northernlightssmokn, the grow you have going does look great, you obviously are doing something right. I just have to wonder given the same amount of money that the setup you have would cost most of us retail, would it be better, worse or the same with hid's? I don't know how cheap you were able to get those lights but I know how much they would cost me and I think personally my money would be better spent on MH/HPS. (actually I spent a lot less and only grow a few plants at a time in a 6 square foot area) Good Luck to all and happy growing!


----------



## TheEnhancementSmoker (Jan 6, 2009)

cadlakmike1 said:
			
		

> I just have to wonder given the same amount of money that the setup you have would cost most of us retail, would it be better, worse or the same with hid's? I don't know how cheap you were able to get those lights but I know how much they would cost me and I think personally my money would be better spent on MH/HPS. (actually I spent a lot less and only grow a few plants at a time in a 6 square foot area) Good Luck to all and happy growing!


He could have had several thousand watts of HPS for the same price, and completely blown that LED grow away.  Even a single 1000 with a room A/C (if there is a heat problem) would have easily surpassed it.


----------



## WeedHopper (Jan 6, 2009)

Ya know man it really boils down to one thing. ,,,,,,,,{Yeild=money spent},,,,,,''''Thats Simple Economics 101''''
If I am getting a better yeild for less money(HIDS or Floras),,what the hell would I wanna go and pay more for(LEDS) to get less? That is not logical and does not compute for those of us who have to watch our money or like saving our money for more BEANS. 
When and IF,,,they ever get LEDS Yeild and COST ,,,,, comparable to HIDs and Floras,,I will be the 1st inline to buy them..Untill then,,I dont get it unless ya just have alot of money and want to experiment. If so thats great. I have watched all the LED grows on this forum. They are all very interesting and cool,,but so are all the others. I think the fighting is pretty stupid.


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 6, 2009)

KADE said:
			
		

> If i was a mod i woulda deleted this thread ages ago... or delete a user. =)


Well, we're trying to proove a point, is that against the rules? :ignore: There's no threats, ect, and why would you want to delete such a good arguement about leds vs hid?? it obviously answered a lot of questions, or maybe the reason why no one deleted it, was because theres nothing wrong here.


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 6, 2009)

CowboyBudsky said:
			
		

> Ya know man it really boils down to one thing. ,,,,,,,,{Yeild=money spent},,,,,,''''Thats Simple Economics 101''''
> If I am getting a better yeild for less money(HIDS or Floras),,what the hell would I wanna go and pay more for(LEDS) to get less? That is not logical and does not compute for those of us who have to watch our money or like saving our money for more BEANS.
> When and IF,,,they ever get LEDS Yeild and COST ,,,,, comparable to HIDs and Floras,,I will be the 1st inline to buy them..Untill then,,I dont get it unless ya just have alot of money and want to experiment. If so thats great. I have watched all the LED grows on this forum. They are all very interesting and cool,,but so are all the others. I think the fighting is pretty stupid.


Shh watch out "Kade" might wish he was a mod again and delete you :rofl:


----------



## pimpdaddycoolz (Jan 8, 2009)

I haven't checked this in like a week but i did notice HEMPGODDESS and some others opted out of responding anymore.(just some thanked post) LOL

Look, like she said, its not a big deal... LED's are experimental. Its not something that someone new to growing should neccesarily go out and spend a bunch of money on. NOT TO SAY THEY DONT WORK northernlightssmokn! so please, no more rude comments. Im not trying to offend you, neither is anyone else. You use LEDS and thats fine, if it works for you, it works for you!

HPS has been around much longer and is proven to grow some nice buds. With time, LEDS will be better. Thats becomming more apparent. 

I think that we should all drop it! Im sure that ross has enough information available on this post alone to make a decision on whats best for him. 

But i will say that Whiterussian and i got into it about a month ago on a post... He's my new best friend!!!! hahahaha just kidding but he's pretty D**N funny!


----------



## Lemmongrass (Jan 9, 2009)

ya know i remember paying $3 for each "superbright" led and up to $6/led for special colors back when i did computer case modding about 5 or so years ago. and those"super bright" leds weren't half as bright as the ones used on these lights. my first one in the late 90's had 15 purple and amber leds, both being odd colors, it cost me over or around $85! they were only 4v leds too.

its all just a matter of time. remember how rare clear/bright leds were in 1999? all there were on the market was the red green yellow ones used for power lights and ****.

We have the power!:holysheep:


----------



## Friend-of-a-friend (Jan 9, 2009)

I seen a link on youtube where a guy used like a gazillion leds to grow 1 plant. The guy got good results, but the LEDS arent practical for a large grow....or even moderate grow. JMO.


----------



## Hick (Jan 9, 2009)

whiterussian said:
			
		

> Well, we're trying to proove a point, is that against the rules? :ignore: There's no threats, ect, and why would you want to delete such a good arguement about leds vs hid?? it obviously answered a lot of questions, or maybe the reason why no one deleted it, was because theres nothing wrong here.



When it elevates to an _"arguement"_ it becomes useless and WILL be deleted. As long as the _discussion_.. remains civil and informative/usefull, it can remain.
The argumentative posts have been deleted for the most part.  
Discussion, experimintation, shareing the results is _good_. Name calling, slander and mudslinging is NOT..


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 9, 2009)

Hick said:
			
		

> When it elevates to an _"arguement"_ it becomes useless and WILL be deleted. As long as the _discussion_.. remains civil and informative/usefull, it can remain.
> The argumentative posts have been deleted for the most part.
> Discussion, experimintation, shareing the results is _good_. Name calling, slander and mudslinging is NOT..


 
Thanks hick!! I am guilty myself of flairing up too. What gets me is the noncense threads  for example...

My hid will blow away your led...
led's suck...jmo
a waiste of money..

These are one liners put in by people that have never used or seen LED's before...these one liners are not needed and drag down a thread..

pot grows itself, we just perfect it... LED's are fine for personal grows. Infact, if your a commercial grower and post on here, i find that more nieve than people who go to youtube and post or search for pot vid's.
Led's arent for big growers. big growers grow more than theyre state law allows anyway. My state says no prosicution under 20 plants.... I never do more than a handfull..infact usualy its 4 in flower and 4 in veg...1 mom.
PERFECT for led's...jmo...


----------



## HydroManiac (Jan 9, 2009)

Well hick northern has almost proved them wrong but I still feel with his results all ready he has proved LED's work in a safe space I congratulate him and all the people working with him on his work  congrats man


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 9, 2009)

pimpdaddycoolz said:
			
		

> I
> NOT TO SAY THEY DONT WORK northernlightssmokn! so please, no more rude comments.
> I think that we should all drop it!


 
Pimp...most of the flaming came from your "my grow is bigger than your grow"one liners. man...I am not dropping anything. I am not going to get upset at one liners anymore, and simply flag them and request theyre removal. Thanks for admitting that LED's work though...lol 
btw, lets face it, pot growers and smokers in one way or another need to adapt. technology is advancing rapidly. One day we will all be using LED's or some sort of new light...we will have too. I know, I know its out there....but so was the computer at one time.


----------



## TheEnhancementSmoker (Jan 9, 2009)

HydroManiac said:
			
		

> Well hick northern has almost proved them wrong but I still feel with his results all ready he has proved LED's work in a safe space I congratulate him and all the people working with him on his work  congrats man


Where did he prove that LEDs meet or exceed HID lights?  I didn't read anything of the sort.


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 9, 2009)

TheEnhancementSmoker said:
			
		

> Where did he prove that LEDs meet or exceed HID lights? I didn't read anything of the sort.


 
I did not prove anything yet that has not already been proved, and I did not prove anyone wrong. Hid's do produce a bigger bud and a in few days sooner than LED's. I did however prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that LED's are indeed PERFECT for closet growers and they do produce a realy good bud. I have also confirmed that this particular LED will almost double the yield of a SINGLE plant per UFO. If a UFO is put below the canopy and angled in to the plant, it will greatly increase bolth the bud sites and also the size of the bottom buds as well. The difference is measurable! Led's alone (2gen UFO) will veg and flower a plant alone with no other lighting source. There will be buds and the smoke will be good. I will be testing yield difference when do a final harvest of dry weight. I will compare days of flower and yield on this plant to that of a 600w s-hps in my journal.


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 9, 2009)

pimpdaddycoolz said:
			
		

> I haven't checked this in like a week but i did notice HEMPGODDESS and some others opted out of responding anymore.(just some thanked post) LOL
> 
> Look, like she said, its not a big deal... LED's are experimental. Its not something that someone new to growing should neccesarily go out and spend a bunch of money on. NOT TO SAY THEY DONT WORK northernlightssmokn! so please, no more rude comments. Im not trying to offend you, neither is anyone else. You use LEDS and thats fine, if it works for you, it works for you!
> 
> ...


Yeah im done fighting, its okay though, we really shouldnt be rude, just let them grow with flashlights and ill keep my HPS, and every ones happy  
sorry hick i get a little worked up sometimes :hubba:


----------



## godspeedsuckah (Jan 10, 2009)

I spent a good half hour with my hydro guy tonight talking about LED's. He went to a seminar on them and as of right now the technology is all hype. He spoke with the manufacturers of these particular lighting systems and they told him that to maximize the LED's right now you need to use them for 12 hours and then your HID's for 12 hours. The manufacturers themselves said this, and that it has just become an internet craze. They are working on some LED technology that will be pretty insane and when it comes out he is buying into it.

Sooooooooooooooooooooo like I have been saying. THEY ARE FOR FINDING YOUR TREE STAND IN THE DARK!!!!!!

:chuck: :chuck: :chuck: :chuck: :chuck: :chuck: :chuck:


----------



## godspeedsuckah (Jan 10, 2009)

ANOTHER point he made is that LED's will cost you nearly $3,000 to be equivalent to a 1000w HID. The diodes in LED's shoot a very precise and direct light in a narrow beam rendering them useless as of now. The technology is not here yet and wont be for a few years. Once they are comparable to at least T5's  which they aren't even close to in comparison than they may have a place in the market; as of now it just isnt there. Not trying to burst any bubbles or start any fights, just pointing out the facts as they are now.


----------



## northernlightssmokn (Jan 10, 2009)

godspeedsuckah said:
			
		

> ANOTHER point he made is that LED's will cost you nearly $3,000 to be equivalent to a 1000w HID. The diodes in LED's shoot a very precise and direct light in a narrow beam rendering them useless as of now. The technology is not here yet and wont be for a few years. Once they are comparable to at least T5's which they aren't even close to in comparison than they may have a place in the market; as of now it just isnt there. Not trying to burst any bubbles or start any fights, just pointing out the facts as they are now.


 

LOL....Useless huh!?!? So they dont even work eh?!?! Hey since your in to gettn such expert advice, I want to hook you up with hot tip my friend...see, I have 5000 shares in a very prominant company named ENRON for sale for a very competitive price and if you act fast I will throw in a free Iloveworldcom teeshirt as well!!!!


Anyway...I just found that funny. I am interested in how he came to such conclusions. Did he site any literature or information sources?? You stated this to be "fact" so you must have a source other than "a friend was told at a convention by someone that...."

lol...

This hydro guy must have owned stock in Hortilux or sunbeam...

:aok:


----------



## The Effen Gee (Jan 10, 2009)

Must have seen this argument a thousand times now on the internet..

Seem's to follow the same pattern...

No finished budshot's. No Eye Candy. No BUD PORNO.

I want to see what kind of bud you can produce off of lights you could run on a battery array.


----------



## godspeedsuckah (Jan 10, 2009)

Alright so "useless" is going to far, they do work in flashlights. My only response is, where are the bud shots northern? Don't preach the effectiveness when there are people in the field, including the mfg's, who all state that the technology is not there yet. So show me the proof. My guess is you can't show me the proof and you won't be able to because it is a load of crap. Step up to the plate and quit preaching your crap, where is it? When T5's out perform LED's, which they do, you can't prove squat so give it up. I checked out your journal, and yes your plants look nice but I have seen better production with cfl's. People are going to buy into this garbage and go out spending *a lot* of money on these LED's when they could have had the same results with florescent. I will admit you can grow with LED's but you have to admit you can't grow well with them. And in one of your post's you actually said that those 3 ufo's equal a 600w hps. Show me how that is. From what I understand LED's and HID units are measured completely different and those 3 ufo's in NO WAY equal a 600w hid. These pics are @ 35 days under a 400w hps.


----------



## godspeedsuckah (Jan 10, 2009)

Here are a couple of the side buds.


----------



## whiterussian (Jan 10, 2009)

godspeedsuckah said:
			
		

> Alright so "useless" is going to far, they do work in flashlights. My only response is, where are the bud shots northern? Don't preach the effectiveness when there are people in the field, including the mfg's, who all state that the technology is not there yet. So show me the proof. My guess is you can't show me the proof and you won't be able to because it is a load of crap. Step up to the plate and quit preaching your crap, where is it? When T5's out perform LED's, which they do, you can't prove squat so give it up. I checked out your journal, and yes your plants look nice but I have seen better production with cfl's. People are going to buy into this garbage and go out spending *a lot* of money on these LED's when they could have had the same results with florescent. I will admit you can grow with LED's but you have to admit you can't grow well with them. And in one of your post's you actually said that those 3 ufo's equal a 600w hps. Show me how that is. From what I understand LED's and HID units are measured completely different and those 3 ufo's in NO WAY equal a 600w hid. These pics are @ 35 days under a 400w hps.


Got a little SPUNK in you today i see  you tell em


----------



## The Effen Gee (Jan 10, 2009)

I'm just going to come out and say it.

After carefully weighing out the facts presented, from this thread and many others, I have come to the conclusion that LED technology is just not there yet. I feel it wont be there for a long time. 

I dont even like CFL's, or T5's. Or thousand watters. I am a 600w man. HPS ONLY.

If you veg under HPS you get stronger plants. Speaking form pure exp. here.

...also , if you use superthrive more than once on any grow, you are a ROOKIE and need to re-think your tactics.

Also...inn regards to flushing, would you starve a cow before you ate it? Yuo get most of your wieght inthe final three weeks...why skimp?

If you are using products that leave residuals in the bud  structure, than refer to my previous comment...re-evaluate your tactics and try to un-learn what you have learned...

...cause my friend...you are so very misled.

Good luck with that setup...and attitude.


----------



## cadlakmike1 (Jan 10, 2009)

I am really interested in LED's, not to buy them or use them today at where the presently are but I'm interested to follow their progression. I actually hope some day LED's will outperform HID, because I want to believe that as good as HID's are(which is presently all I will use) someday something better will be out there. There is nothing wrong with the pursuit of perfection, and the ufo's have already made huge leaps from gen 1 to gen 2, but I think it's counter-productive to try to advocate an unproven system. The proof is out there, wether all of us will admit it or not, LED's are not better than HID's today. Every truly successful LED setup I have seen from start to finish as had small HPS supplements to aid in flowering. Until they are truly a stand alone lighting option, what's the point if you still need a ballast and bulb, in addition to the already expensive LED.


----------



## pimpdaddycoolz (Jan 10, 2009)

northernlightssmokn said:
			
		

> Pimp...most of the flaming came from your "my grow is bigger than your grow"one liners. man...I am not dropping anything. I am not going to get upset at one liners anymore, and simply flag them and request theyre removal. Thanks for admitting that LED's work though...lol
> btw, lets face it, pot growers and smokers in one way or another need to adapt. technology is advancing rapidly. One day we will all be using LED's or some sort of new light...we will have too. I know, I know its out there....but so was the computer at one time.



well like i said, I do not doubt that they wont be the best lighting source in the future. And i dont doubt that they work now. Just from what i've seen, i'd personally PREFER the HPS. But everyone goes their own ways ya know? everyone has better luck or experiance using one method then another...


----------



## pimpdaddycoolz (Jan 10, 2009)

ALSO! i noticed i've been attacked on 2 threads since ive gotten back. (out of town for the night)

Im just saying that if we voice our opinions on things, hick made a point. It shouldn't be about arueging. 
A simple, "Well i dont agree, this is my opinion." or "Nice feedback, i haven't had the same experiance with that" 

I say things i shouldn't sometimes as well, dont get me wrong but things like

"you dont know what your talking about so be quiet" is simply elementry. thats just MY OPINION on things. I hope that we can all go about this civilly.


----------



## CallMeAFool2 (Jan 10, 2009)

Good Luck Pimpdaddy.  I do not think LEDs are better at this point, but to say they do not work...All I was trying to do and will continue to do is show my results.  I also showed my garden under HID, so while I love new technology, had a Laptop computer when the first P75 came out and wholesale (my biz then, in 94 I think it was, maybe 95,) it was $4550 to put out as a display.  I feel the same about all technology and do not worry, LED technology WILL be the light of the future, is there a decent brand flashlight today that does not have them? Give it probably another 5-7 years in the grow field.  That U-Tube video of that one little LED in brightness blowing away I believe it was a 400W HPS is amazing.  It is not my dad can beat up your dad, it is just different and some people, well different or change is hard for some to accept. If not for early adopters in technology, paying and painstankingly working out the bugs, there is no investment. 

*Edited By Smokinmom- If you have issues with any of the staff here, please take it to PMs. *


----------



## pimpdaddycoolz (Jan 10, 2009)

CallMeAFool2 said:
			
		

> Good Luck Pimpdaddy.  I do not think LEDs are better at this point, but to say they do not work...All I was trying to do and will continue to do is show my results.  I also showed my garden under HID, so while I love new technology, had a Laptop computer when the first P75 came out and wholesale (my biz then, in 94 I think it was, maybe 95,) it was $4550 to put out as a display.  I feel the same about all technology and do not worry, LED technology WILL be the light of the future, is there a decent brand flashlight today that does not have them? Give it probably another 5-7 years in the grow field.  That U-Tube video of that one little LED in brightness blowing away I believe it was a 400W HPS is amazing.  It is not my dad can beat up your dad, it is just different and some people, well different or change is hard for some to accept. If not for early adopters in technology, paying and painstankingly working out the bugs, there is no investment.
> 
> *Edited By Smokinmom- If you have issues with any of the staff here, please take it to PMs. *




Ya , you know, if i said they dont work, which im pretty sure i did, i take it back. I didnt mean that they dont. Like i said, just grows that i've personally seen! I'd love to be proven completely and utterly wrong on the whole scenario to be honest with you!

If they had a 200 watt led that can really match a 1000 watt in all light spectrums and area covered, I would be on it like like its my girlfriend!

I mean i would save so much electricity from something like that. WE ALL WOULD! It Would be a wonderful thing, and when it does happen, that it becomes the best source of light, IT WILL BE MY NEW GIRLFRIEND!

Right now though, i do love my HPS! The current grow is looking quite nice! THATS ALL I REALLY CARE ABOUT!


----------



## SmokinMom (Jan 10, 2009)

84VW said:
			
		

> you have to love that
> 
> freedom of speech at its best :ignore:


 
We arent going to tolerate flaming of the MP members or staff on the board.  Lets be mature folks.  We are all supposed to be over 18.

Thread closed.


----------

