# Choco Loso



## P Jammers (Oct 30, 2013)

For you Sativa lovers here is one I ran under LED's. 133 days in flower and was 6'6 tall which is why I am posting the entire plant in 2 pics. I couldn't get close enough catch the whole plant in one shot and show any detail.

So yeah we all see the "LED's don't penetrate argument, and yeah some don't, but some do.

This particular plant went 2.8 GPW which is currently the best I have done.


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## orangesunshine (Oct 30, 2013)

great ceiling height---why don't the led's penetrate the canopy---do they have hot spots or is it cause they are low intensity---seems if some do and some don't maybe a light mover is in order :hubba:


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## P Jammers (Oct 30, 2013)

orangesunshine said:
			
		

> great ceiling height---why don't the led's penetrate the canopy---do they have hot spots or is it cause they are low intensity---seems if some do and some don't maybe a light mover is in order :hubba:


Couldn't tell ya brother. I don't have that issue.


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## orangesunshine (Oct 30, 2013)

2.8 gpw is much respect---would you share your experiences---what would you guesstimate your %$ decrease in your power bill was by using the led's---how bout the other factors---safety, heating and cooling, life span of the led,  what was the gpw w/ your prior light


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## ozzydiodude (Oct 30, 2013)

:ciao: :48: growing the Sats might be where the LED's shine. Sat ain't as bushy as indys so penetration aint needed as much.

*PJ *do you have the light mounted or was you raising it as needed?


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## P Jammers (Oct 30, 2013)

orangesunshine said:
			
		

> 2.8 gpw is much respect---would you share your  experiences---what would you guesstimate your %$ decrease in your power  bill was by using the led's---how bout the other factors---safety,  heating and cooling, life span of the led,  what was the gpw w/ your  prior light


Well power stayed the same as far as overall wattage for the lights as I was expanding when I updated a couple of years back so that is moot here, but light saving would have been cut in half watt for watt.

Cooling the room is quite a bit cheaper but I couldn't put a total on that in a dollar amount. I no longer have to run any fans for venting through the lights to cool them however. There was an issue in the light it's self which was more of a design flaw, and I was losing LED modules for a while, but that seems to be all fixed now, knock on wood.

I flower 6 plants under 356 watts that average about 1.5 a piece.




			
				ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> :ciao: :48: growing the Sats might be where the LED's shine. Sat ain't as bushy as indys so penetration aint needed as much.
> 
> *PJ *do you have the light mounted or was you raising it as needed?


But for the most part are Sats are quite a bit taller so it is part of the equation. It really comes down to proper training and not allowing the canopy to get too large, unless you are running for tops only which I do on a few strains.

The light is fully adjustable and it's more about keeping plants the same height under each fixture than dates of said plants. With my fixtures I need to stay at least 16" above the canopy so with 9 foot ceilings, was not too tough and yes I just adjusted as needed but once she was done with stretch it sat there for what seemed months.

I also run perpetual so it makes it easier for me to move plants as needed based on height alone.


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## ozzydiodude (Oct 30, 2013)

Your the second person I talked to that was using the LEDs higher and not 2 or 3 inches from the plants. that maybe the key the light peak spectrun wise might not be close to the diode


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## orangesunshine (Oct 30, 2013)

thanks for your input PJ---could you tell a bit more on why you be 16" from the canopy if these leds do not need to be air cooled---is that for light foot---how bout growing any indys or do you only run the sativas---what about time frame---does it take longer grow under the led or can you expect the same weight for the same time growing under a led vs. the same time and watt hps


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## JustAnotherAntMarching (Oct 30, 2013)

Hey hey  PJ...  :48:


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## P Jammers (Oct 30, 2013)

orangesunshine said:
			
		

> thanks for your input PJ---could you tell a bit more on why you be 16" from the canopy if these leds do not need to be air cooled---is that for light foot---how bout growing any indys or do you only run the sativas---what about time frame---does it take longer grow under the led or can you expect the same weight for the same time growing under a led vs. the same time and watt hps


As far as time frames I have seen no difference although I have seen this question asked several times. And if I am just keeping it real, not quite sure where the logic is behind that at all? If a plant takes x-days to flower under HPS, what would cause a plant to change it's times under any other "High Intensity" light? 

As far as "Why 16" minimum?" In a word Bleaching. While the main sun leaves will fry like nobody's business, before that ever happens if you have flowers it will turn them white, and I mean snow white. I had reports from a grower that this was just major trics. Couldn't have been further from the truth. It will make the smoke taste like burnt wood and pretty nasty. Potency is also compromised ten fold. 

I have some plants that require I am closer to 2 feet above the canopy, and some will let me get within 12", but as a rule I am generally at 16 or so inches.

Couple of facts about LED lighting, and again I am not talking ALL LED products. I am talking about the ones that I have. LED's produce roughly four times the "Usable" light per watt as compared to traditional grow lights. Many LED suppliers argue that a 200watt LED is equal to 800 watts of traditional grow light power . A more realistic rule of thumb however is 1:2




			
				JustAnotherAntMarching said:
			
		

> Hey hey  PJ...  :48:



What up Nephew.




			
				ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> Your the second person I talked to that was using the LEDs higher and not 2 or 3 inches from the plants. that maybe the key the light peak spectrun wise might not be close to the diode


 I went in to some detail about why you have to keep these higher above, but you do have a point here as far as the spectrum. "Most" not all LED in the past have been built with single color diodes under each lens, or glass. Mine are that way myself. That said, good chance I will be testing some new 15watt "mixed" spectrum single diodes made by another company here in the US within the next year, and I "think" this will be the next big break-thru in the Tech and future of LED's for growing. 

I feel like when that happens HPS will fade away in to the past forever, except for all the stick in the muds who know better that want to settle, "If they have ever reached it at all" a GPW. 

Personally, I'm striving for 3GPW myself and I'll do it at half the cost.


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## orangesunshine (Oct 30, 2013)

As far as time frames I have seen no difference although I have seen this question asked several times. And if I am just keeping it real, not quite sure where the logic is behind that at all? If a plant takes x-days to flower under HPS, what would cause a plant to change it's times under any other "High Intensity" light? 

that ^^^^ is a pj quote----

same as it would if it were shaded---had less intensity---vegging 18 instead of 24---lower lumens---different spectrums---would this not slow the growth rate when comparing led to hps

if i understand correctly---you are saying all factors being the same except the light---you are busting out the same #'s w/led as you would w/hps? 

i am all about learning more about growing our favorite plant---just trying to wrap my head around led's

thanks


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## P Jammers (Oct 30, 2013)

orangesunshine said:
			
		

> if i understand correctly---you are saying all factors being the same except the light---you are busting out the same #'s w/led as you would w/hps?


No I am saying I am doing better now than I ever did with HPS square foot for square foot.


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## WeedHopper (Oct 30, 2013)

Better Harvest with LED then HPS????:ignore: What was ya doing wrong when you grew with HPS,,, that would cause you to get a better result with LED? If that was the case,,The big growers would be using LEDS instead of those stupid old HPS thingys,, dont ya think?

You are the only person that I have ever heard say this 





> I am saying I am doing better now than I ever did with HPS square foot for square foot.


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## trillions of atoms (Oct 30, 2013)

Ive found running less plants for me has upped my yeild. Simply overcrowding will drop yeild.

Pj what strains ya running all bohdi still?


 Id like to get some leds for a small area I have but ive been waiting till the price levels off.

are you doing one light per plant? Or is the array spread out?sorry I havent seen the setup pics or your space so idk...  

Btw- The island says hello!


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## WeedHopper (Oct 30, 2013)

I also found the same thing TOA. I like giving my plants plenty room to grow,,and a better chance for light penetration.I dont have a problem with LEDS,,I have a problem with claims that they are better then HPS at this time.


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## P Jammers (Oct 30, 2013)

trillions of atoms said:
			
		

> Pj what strains ya running all bohdi still?
> 
> 
> Id like to get some leds for a small area I have but ive been waiting till the price levels off.
> ...


 I still test for Bodhi, but have never just run his stuff. Just finished some Apollo 11 crosses, Cherry Mountain, Super Snow Lotus, etc etc. Same thread you posted in over at TSD.


I run Apollo 10's in flower which are 356 watts total and I run six plants under one fixture. 

This was taken over the weekend of three plants on the back side of one light. Strain is California Orange and runs over 3 GPW on a bad run.




Apollo 10 for flowering.



Apollo 4's I use for veg, which cover a 2x4 table. Total cost around 300 bones for the setup.




Not sure who or what the Island is TBH, but I am sure I'll find out huh?


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## P Jammers (Oct 30, 2013)

WeedHopper said:
			
		

> I dont have a problem with LEDS,,I have a problem with claims that they are better then HPS at this time.


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## WeedHopper (Oct 30, 2013)

Now thats funny PJ. Ya made me laugh. 


Just smoked a bowl of Sweet Island.Was Sweettttt.


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## sunakard2000 (Nov 1, 2013)

as i said before good to see yah pokin yer head back in around here P Jammers, always nice to see what you got going on under those LEDs


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## trillions of atoms (Nov 2, 2013)

How much are those apollos now? Could I get one for 400 bux? Im a cheap ba$tard lololololol


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## P Jammers (Nov 2, 2013)

sunakard2000 said:
			
		

> as i said before good to see yah pokin yer head back  in around here P Jammers, always nice to see what you got going on  under those LEDs


Thanks




			
				trillions of atoms said:
			
		

> How much are those apollos now? Could I get one for 400 bux? Im a cheap ba$tard lololololol



You could get 2 of the Apollo 4's for that, or 1 Apollo 8 or be short on an Apollo 20. 

You're looking at "around" a buck a watt for that series. Bout a 1/3 the cost of the California Light works fixtures with way more performance from what I am seeing.


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## NorCalHal (Nov 2, 2013)

What's happening PJ, good to "see" you man.

What is the coverage area for the Apollo 10's that you are running for flower? I take it is around a 4x4 area?

I understand the cost savings on electricity is a big factor, but say if a Apollo 10 @ 365watts covering a 4x4 area gets 3 gpw, that is 1095 grams from the 4x4 area.

A 1000 watt hps will give me close to the same results consistently in the same area, 4x4. 
Is this fair to say? 

If that is so, then LED's have come along way, and I am paying attention.
The savings for me on electrical, both light power and the power it takes to cool them, are something worth looking into.

I've been growing a long time, and having 2+ lb's in a 4x4 area is pretty jammed packed, I just can't see getting significantly more quality herb from that space, if you catch my drift.
I don't think you are claiming more herb from the space, just equal amount from less watts, but still the same space.

Again, if they are producing at that level, that's awesome.


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## nouvellechef (Nov 2, 2013)

That makes sense. But what if kilowatt costs were not a factor? Would LED's produce better herb per say? In WA we pay .08 kilowatt, flat rate. Zoned "AG" its .04 kilowatt. So my savings would be replacing the bulbs 3 times per year(HPS), Metal halide, twice(every 6 months).

Total costs for bulbs,

HPS- $400
MH- $140

Cooling bulbs happens less than 10% of the Year(AC).


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## P Jammers (Nov 2, 2013)

NorCalHal said:
			
		

> What's happening PJ, good to "see" you man.
> 
> What is the coverage area for the Apollo 10's that you are running for flower? I take it is around a 4x4 area?
> 
> ...


I actually use one  Apollo 10 over a 4x2 area, so about half the area or less than half the area mentioned. 

Make it over to the other site, and I will link you to the lab where you can "see" it all first hand. I have full room shots you can take a look at to see what I am doing and how it is all set up. Just not something I share on open public sites. 

I mentioned somewhere that I had recently done some math and on an average I am at around 1.6 GPW. Some strains will do up to 3, while others are under 1 first time through which is just a learning curve of that said plant. I've only met a few that won't perform well, but they are going to be the same under HPS as well, so we just kick those to the curb. Also keep in mind I am typically testing new strains, and not a commercial guy by any means. I simply test, report my findings and have it tested.

I'd never recommend to someone like yourself to spend the cash and "change everything" over to LED. You have already made that investment and it makes no sense to spend a ton of money to "convert" over to LED. You would have savings in terms of your electric bill, but how long it would take to realize your savings would be the question.

That said, for someone with no lights setting up whether it be a tent or a commercial setup, LED's [Good ones] are more than adequate and you realize the savings immediately. 

I'll be honest. I don't see too many people having the success I am. There are a few guys over at TSD that are starting to show some real nice results, but not many of them have any real "growing" experience and are still figuring what the plants really need when issues pop up.

I do run one public thread for anyone who wants to take a look at some of the things I have been doing at another spot. Just keep in mind that these are almost all first time through plants and are vegged 21 days from seed pop to keep things consistent in my regimen.

hxxxp forum.seeddepot.nl/showthread.php?1941-All-Bodhi-All-the-Time-LED-Harvest-shots

Here is a shot from last month on a tester first time through called Super Snow Lotus from Bodhi. These things really surprised me and took off like crazy once they hit flowering. Can't stay away from that jar either...
:icon_smile:




She was 6'4 done and went just a little under 4.


This what I like to see normally




So yeah, be good to "See" you over at the other spot as well brother NCH. We'll do lunch.


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## NorCalHal (Nov 2, 2013)

From the pictures I've seen by WELL grown LED growers, like PJ, the herb looks top notch for sure. 

Your spoiled with your power bills. I get super taxed, and they (Power Compant) knows what I am doing and gives me a nice "demand charge" on each bill...furthering my pain. 20 lights runs me about 4000 - 4500 a cycle. All the bells and whistles running, complete environmental control. 5 ton AC a BIG amp eater. 
But, being in a sealed room, I see no other way around having to run a 5 ton, no matter how cool it gets outside, as I never exhaust air.

So, for me, if I can get these panels to at least hit 2 gpw over a 4x4 area, it will be worth trying 1 out.


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## nouvellechef (Nov 2, 2013)

Haha. Or move to B-Ham and reap the benefits of WA weather and power costs.


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## P Jammers (Nov 2, 2013)

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> That makes sense. But what if kilowatt costs were not a factor? Would LED's produce better herb per say? In WA we pay .08 kilowatt, flat rate. Zoned "AG" its .04 kilowatt. So my savings would be replacing the bulbs 3 times per year(HPS), Metal halide, twice(every 6 months).
> 
> Total costs for bulbs,
> 
> ...





Define better herb? 


I've got a strain or 5 in the high 20% THC content fully tested in a lab in N Cali. Got a couple real high in CBD's. Had nothing to do with the lights as far as I can tell however. Some would argue that LED smoke tastes better, while I have first hand watched people use them and grow what tasted like wood chips.

I say next time you make it to the DC area  hit me up and test for yourself. Got a buddy who backs up my keepers and runs HPS so you can get samples of several strains and test for yourself. 


He's also over at that other spot you were approved to enter, and you can ask him straight up on the site who's doing what. I'll try and make sure he don't whine too much.


We also have a food area and I need some new ideas.
:hubba:

Rather than take this thread any further before it turns in to some huge debate over what is better, I am simply stating I can do every bit as good as any HPS bulb and in most cases do way better.

If you live in Antarctica they may not be for you. If you live in AZ and are not using them you'd be a fool with today's tech. That's not something I even want to go in to but I can assure you the rest of us who suffer high electric bills it's a no brainer...

Is it worth it to switch? For me it was but for most probably not. To anyone with experience growing that was just setting up a new system again, no brainer.


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## P Jammers (Nov 2, 2013)

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> Haha. Or move to B-Ham and reap the benefits of WA weather and power costs.


And then you can watch it rain as much as you see perfect weather NorCal.

I'd jump on that. I hear the fish is tossed.


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