# Crossing a hermaphrodite with a female



## TheEnhancementSmoker (Jul 7, 2008)

Just a hypothetical question, but...

If you crossed a hermie with a female, would this be a good way of testing strain potency, while producing seeds for future harvests?  I figure this would produce less seed, but then there is the potential problem with future hermaphroditic tendencies.  It would be XXY/XX instead of XY/XX, correct?

Or, is it just better to not "reinvent the wheel" and do the typical male/female crossing to produce seed?

I guess my question is, when trying to produce a new strain  what is the optimal way to both produce seed and produce quality bud for testing?  It kinda sucks to have to produce a seed batch, then plant the seed, then determine from that batch what the ultimate outcome is.


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## trillions of atoms (Jul 7, 2008)

no-


 hermi genetics=s hermi beans= hermi seeded bud= BAD

time my friend....it takes time and patience.


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## Hick (Jul 7, 2008)

... look into/try searching the forum for     "selective pollination"  You can easily collect pollen and "selectively" pollinate a single lower branch   for seeds, while the rest of the plant produces sensimilla.
  "Hermies" are _never_ a good breeding prospect.. IMO. In the words of the "breeder" that brought us blueberry and flo, "Choose only the best, trash the rest".. when selecting phenotypes for breeding or X's...


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## ChatNoir (Jul 7, 2008)

You'll have 75% chance of producing a hermaphrodite plant... Unless you are planning to spend your next 5 years to clean the gene pool from hermaphrodite plant, do not include it to your breeding project.


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## Albrecht (Jul 7, 2008)

Hick said:
			
		

> ... look into/try searching the forum for     "selective pollination"  You can easily collect pollen and "selectively" pollinate a single lower branch   for seeds, while the rest of the plant produces sensimilla.



Whoa, that is a very interesting prospect.  I'll have to keep that in mind and do some research in that direction for my next grow session, when I buy some new quality seeds.  Thanks.


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## KAMSAI (Jul 8, 2008)

its kinda like people....fat people have fat kids...Hermie will produce Hermie...all about genetics


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## Tater (Sep 12, 2008)

> You'll have 75% chance of producing a hermaphrodite plant... Unless you are planning to spend your next 5 years to clean the gene pool from hermaphrodite plant, do not include it to your breeding project.



Did you know 83% of the time 92% percent of people that make up 38% of the statistics can't back them up with anything.  Trust me I read it somewhere.

Anyways, I agree and disagree on the whole hermie female seed breeding thing.  The fact of the matter is that every single cannabis plant on this planet has the ability to hermaphrodite (ok maybe not everyone I'm sure there are exceptions) it is a genetic self defense mechanism to insure the propagation of the species and it has worked very well.  The trick to producing feminized seeds is finding plants that are EXTREMELY resistant to hermphroditing (is that a word?) and then forcing them through either chemical means to produce male parts or you can use extreme stress (either light stress heat stress etc light being the most common from what I've read) to achieve the same result.  You will end up with seeds that are feminized so to say while still resistant to expressing their hermaphroditic traits.  If you were on the other hand to use the pollen produced by a female plant that hermaphrodited under light or even moderate stress and then in turn used that pollen to create seeds you would be passing on genes that will cause the plant to hermaphrodite under light to moderate stress and could even increase the chances of its offspring to show these traits depending on the plant it is crossed with.  If it was crossed with itself it would almost definitely hermie on you during your grow.

Note the above has nothing to do with my personal stance on using feminized seeds its simply what I have gleaned from my reading on breeding Cannabis plants.  I've probably done nothing but help to further muddy the waters.  Let the hermie war begin lol.


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## Dubbaman (Sep 12, 2008)

(in a George Sr. Tone) selective breeding GOOD, Hermi Breeding bad!


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## massproducer (Sep 13, 2008)

I would never work with an enviromental hermie, but It is a lot more complex then saying breeding with a hermie is bad.

Femmed seeds are extremely prevalant now a days, and most of the major breeders offeer them in some form, these are very reliable breeders, but to make a femmed seed, you need a hermie.  Some of the greatest strains in the world are still around because of a hermie.  Any clone only that is selfed uses a hermie.  A lot of plants carry major hermie tendencies, but some of those you would never know because they need perticular enviromental conditions in order to express that part of their genes, you could stress the heck out of some intersexed plants and they will never show 1 male flower.  While you could have a very solid pheno that recieves little stress and hermies.  Some equatorial sativas will hermie no matter what, even in perfect conditions.

So I far from know it all, but I do know that it is a lot more complex then we are making it.


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## 4u2sm0ke (Sep 13, 2008)

Thanks again massproducer..I have been reading up on Feminized seeds...I read that it takes a hermie  somewhere..lol...  and thought I was just really high at the time I read it.  Just did not know how to post the words...lol


Thanks my friend


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## Hick (Sep 13, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> I would never work with an enviromental hermie, but It is a lot more complex then saying breeding with a hermie is bad.
> 
> Femmed seeds are extremely prevalant now a days, and most of the major breeders offeer them in some form, these are very reliable breeders, but to make a femmed seed, you need a hermie.  Some of the greatest strains in the world are still around because of a hermie.  Any clone only that is selfed uses a hermie.  A lot of plants carry major hermie tendencies, but some of those you would never know because they need perticular enviromental conditions in order to express that part of their genes, you could stress the heck out of some intersexed plants and they will never show 1 male flower.  While you could have a very solid pheno that recieves little stress and hermies.  Some equatorial sativas will hermie no matter what, even in perfect conditions.
> 
> So I far from know it all, but I do know that it is a lot more complex then we are making it.



THANK you MassP.. "is a lot more complex then we are making it.".... Well said.
   I believe you are SO right!.. and I believe that the 'assumed' simplicity of the process, AND uninformed and unscrupulous "seed makers" attempting to produce femminised seeds, without the benefit of VERY discriminate "selection, is at least "somewhat" to blame for the high ratio of hermies we're seeing in even the "designer" strains from seed banks of late.
  I agree that it is or 'can be' a usefull tool in the preservation of rare genetics, and has probably benefitted the gene pool in that respect, on a rare occasion or two. But I also believe that it is most likely polluting the same pool with hermie tendancies with it's widely accepted use.. For at least decades if not centuries, breeders that have brought us to the point we are today, with very potent and stable strains/hybrids, were carefull to "selectively" breed the hermie tensancies OUT of the gene pool, because they 'knew' they are less desirable(even detrimental) to the production of high grade sensimillia and stable, potent genetics.
    It seems to me, that I have seen more hermies popup in the forum, over the last two years, than I have seen in 25+ years, including the last 15 or so on the net.  What appears to me. to be a huge increase since the widely accepted inception and distribution of femminisation.  
  I respect your knowledge and wisdom and would appreciate you thoughts/opinions on this.


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## massproducer (Sep 14, 2008)

I could not have said it better myself Hick, I totally agree.  And thanks for your kind words, you know I have the upmost of respect for you and all of your abilities and knowledge.

I have definiately seen a huge increase in the amounts of hermies being reported in the past couple years, and IMO, female seeds are definiately a major part of the problem.  I don't see the problem as much being with the actual S1's or R1's, the problem is when unexperienced amatures try and breed those strains in which they may or may not know are femmed beans.  Breeding with femmed beans is a very dounting task, to say the least.  More on that in a minute.

The second major thing i have seen is a drastic increase in the amount of people who have decided to take up this hobby, which is great... But... this influx has created several problems in its own right.  1 of the largest being bag seeds... I have always avocated using bag seeds but with the invention and commericalization of female seeds, the game has changed.  Because of some of the benefical properties a lot of commerical growers have now turned to female seeds, IME and according to Henk Van Dalen, Founder of Dutch Passion, the first generation of Female seeds (S1 or R1), are extremely uniform, as compared to F1's.  The seedlings all tend to grow like clones from the same plant as opposed to seedlings expressing their individual phenotype variations.  So if you are a commerical produer, this is extremely benefical, because not only do they not have to worry about not pulling males, they also get very uniform plants, from freshly sown seeds.  That kind of takes the need of having mothers and cloning, right out of the picture, as the main reason to clone is to preserve the phenotype, but if all of the seedlings are basically the same phenotype, it becomes kind of pointless.  Anyone that has beening growing for a while can tell atest to the benefits of starting new seeds, and not holding on to the same mothers/ donors for too long. 

Now that sounds great but if and when 1 of those plants happens to hermie, and seed themselves it starts a chain of events, that eventually lead to potential growers hands.  When the buds are chopped and dried and sold on the street, the lucky customer happens to find a few seeds in this killer strain and decides to give growing a try.  The problem is that there is a very real possiblity that these came from a female plant that hermied.  That would basically make these R2, now just like regular F2's, this is where you are going to start seeing some of the negative regressive traits from its parents, with the most dominate regressive traits showing first, now the same stabilization that worked for you with the R1's is working very hard against you with R2's... This is because there still is not much room for new traits to express themselves expect for weaknesses, and the opposites of things like disease and pest resistances.  In fact taking a plant to R3's, some of the plants will be so weak that they can not even survive, and some that will have to be handled with great care, and these are the seeds that a lot of new growers are stared out with.

IME, a hermaphadite is not as much a trait as it is a response to other weak or stressful traits or situations.  I know it doesn't make sense but my mind is kind of twisted, lol.  If we look at what causes a hermie, i know everyone will say stress, but if we look at how stress causes hermies it becomes kind of interesting.  Science says that a hermie is caused or triggered by a lack of ethylene or a problem with the ethylene pathways in the suspect plant, with ethylene being the plant equivalent to estrogen in humans.  So how does stress equal into this equation... Stress is what closes and/or damages the ethylene pathways.  This is the premise that breeders work on when they are creating their female seeds, because their are substances that majorily inhibit the pathways, things like dissolved Silver compounds and excessive amounts of GA.  These work so well because they concentrate on controlling which pathways they damage giving a more controlled reverse as opposed to say light stress which could occur anywhere in a very uncontrolled manor.

THis is starting to get kind of long and boring to read so this is the last problem I see with the influx of hermies and influx of new growers.

In the past when growing weed was not so commericalized and glamourized a very, very high percentage of growers took their hobby very serious, dead serious.  They went to every length to ensure they knew what they were doing.  They took time and actually cared, they understood that this was something that the had to commit to... and that is the problem, I see the tides shifting and everyday i see another person that is not commited to their craft.  I call it the set it and forget it syndrome.  This is the person that will ask a question before reading to see if the information is already availible in a convienent source.  This is the person that feels they can just set up a hydro system, buy a light and produce pounds... all over night.  I promise you this is not dedicated to anyone and i am not writing this with anyone in mind, because I personally love to help, but over the computer I can only do so much for that person.  I am not even saying that this person shouldn't grow, but they are setting themselves up for failure.  Once the novilty of growing wears off this person tapers off with their care, which stresses the heck out of the plants, of which the seeds are probably R2 bagseeds, which will quickly lead to problems and probably a room full of hermies.  Basically if you have a general treand of producing hermies then you have to look into what is causing the problem because it is probably something avoidable.

I actually have 1 last thing to mention which is becoming more and more of a problem everyday.  While yes some of the strains nowadays are super potent, we are starting to majorily limit the genetic potential of most popular strains and the enitre cannabis genopool, because of our infactuation with a few strains, namely; White widow in amsterdam and og kush/sour diesel in america.  Most strains produced now carry these genes somewhere along the line.  I am not talking about some of the wonderful Ibl's, i am talking about something like breeding OG kush and sour diesel and claiming this is a new strain, when in fact they are both really just phenotypes of the same strain and by combining the two you are not adding anything new into the gene pool.  This stagnates the stain and causes genetic weaknesses, that will eventually lead to not only a reduced vigor but also will lead to hermies.  So yes it is true we do have some killer strains, but we are looking diversity, and are headed to a world were there is no diversity and only 1 weak genetic strain, that is just a combination of everything due to the continued infactuations on creating super strains.  Do not get me wrong i am all for creating new and exciting strains but we have to get back to doing it the way it is suppose to be done, starting with totally unique and unrelated LANDRACES and starting from the bottom up.  All of the short cuts are taking use to a place that I am not prepared to be.

Basically, IMO, their is a place for everything, except a weak enviromental hermie, lol, but you have to understand how it fits in with what you are doing, and more importantly you have to understand how it works and what are they requirements in order to make it work as described.  but anyways I said I was done two paragraphs ago, and I am starting to ramble.

Mass


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## Hick (Sep 14, 2008)

> we have to get back to doing it the way it is suppose to be done, starting with totally unique and unrelated LANDRACES and starting from the bottom up. All of the short cuts are taking use to a place that I am not prepared to be.


...bottle necking the gene pool... :aok: 



> IME, a hermaphadite is not as much a trait as it is a *response to other weak or stressful traits* or situations.


 ... or a 'response' to a stressfull situation "by" weak traits/genetics..?  :hubba: 



> . I have always avocated using bag seeds but with the invention and commericalization of female seeds, the game has changed.


.... I grew 'bag'seeds from 81 and up until about 94-95, all OD. I'd just collect seed from any 'good' bag and sew them in the spring. I miss the 'simplixity' of it. If you planted 20 seeds, you could very well yeild 20 totally different phenos/strains. At the time, I found it confusing. I thought "pot is pot". What is causing such wide variation?? ....THEN I found the internet.. THEN it hit me like a brick. :stuff-1125699181_i_ 



> In the past when growing weed was not so commericalized and glamourized a very, very high percentage of growers took their hobby very serious, dead serious. They went to every length to ensure they knew what they were doing. They took time and actually cared, they understood that this was something that the had to commit to


..thank you for your time and 'commitment'.. both in your growing and your response..


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## 4u2sm0ke (Sep 14, 2008)

Sorry if Im not supose to throw this up here but....


Thank you Massproducer and Hick...this was a very good and informative thread...I Honor and respect you Both...I am very Glad to have the Knowlage available to me from people that care so much..i to thought " Pot was Pot"  until i started growing my own and reading up on strains..Thanks again

You Guys Rock!!!!!


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## Tater (Sep 14, 2008)

> In the past when growing weed was not so commericalized and glamourized a very, very high percentage of growers took their hobby very serious, dead serious. They went to every length to ensure they knew what they were doing. They took time and actually cared, they understood that this was something that the had to commit to... and that is the problem, I see the tides shifting and everyday i see another person that is not commited to their craft. I call it the set it and forget it syndrome. This is the person that will ask a question before reading to see if the information is already availible in a convienent source. This is the person that feels they can just set up a hydro system, buy a light and produce pounds... all over night. I promise you this is not dedicated to anyone and i am not writing this with anyone in mind, because I personally love to help, but over the computer I can only do so much for that person. I am not even saying that this person shouldn't grow, but they are setting themselves up for failure. Once the novilty of growing wears off this person tapers off with their care, which stresses the heck out of the plants, of which the seeds are probably R2 bagseeds, which will quickly lead to problems and probably a room full of hermies. Basically if you have a general treand of producing hermies then you have to look into what is causing the problem because it is probably something avoidable.



Your entire post was a good read but this part right here plucked a cord deep in me and it is a belief I have firmly stood by.  Those who refuse to educate themselves and put in the work are doomed to failure, it doesn't matter if we are talking about growing weed or getting a promotion the same holds true.  I look at how western society has dumbed down its expectations for its youth and we are essentially creating a society where mediocrity is both expected and even celebrated (seriously who the hell ever got a participation medal in track or any other sport when they were a kid? I didn't).  Mass once again I bow to your knowledge, but I'm coming for you man, my mind is a sponge and one day the teacher will become the student mark my words lol.  Now reveal the secret of the lotus technique to me!!!

Oh and I'm there with you on the getting back to landrace breeding, that is ultimately my goal but I have a long long ways before I'm ready for that.  Everyday I learn more but each time I learn something new it opens a door and I realize that I have no idea whats on the other side.


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## papabeach1 (Sep 14, 2008)

TheEnhancementSmoker said:
			
		

> Just a hypothetical question, but...
> 
> If you crossed a hermie with a female, would this be a good way of testing strain potency, while producing seeds for future harvests? I figure this would produce less seed, but then there is the potential problem with future hermaphroditic tendencies. It would be XXY/XX instead of XY/XX, correct?
> 
> ...


 
no no,   but I am glad you said it is just a "Just a hypothetical question"
that better be for real... cuz myself,  I did'nt ask anyone help for growing mj in my old time, in woods, where hunters is probhited,  when I was 12,  I has to plants too many weeds in every buckets,   that was my huge mistake.. I end up to have lot of herms,   believe me I smoke it like I am dumb  I attempt it,  cuz there was no one to tell me whats right and whats wrong,   I was foolish when I sold some buds, and they said this is crap!.  that was my old time.. I tried to understand the sexes, until I came here to mp.com  the answers was here ....now I can grow just females...  btw..herms bred to others will be always a herm... do not do it.. I wasted lot of crops.... big mistakes!! next time I grow outside, I must take males out,  that what I didn't for 4 years,   and go on and go on, see  these is mistakes  its wrong...


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## BuddyLuv (Sep 16, 2008)

Whatever you do never buy Dutch Passion fems. I bought a 10 pack and germed 5 beans. All 5 hermied on me at 7 weeks. I threw the other 5 beans away and had to use Dutchmaster Reverse on my remaing 11 plants. I have been growing an outdoor afghani strain given to me by a good friend for 15 years and have only seen 2 or 3 hermies from over hundreds of plants. I know it was not environmental stress because my room is at optimal conditions and none of the other females that came from non feminized seeds have any male flowers. Kind of sucks but you live and you learn.The only advice I can add to this is to not believe the hype of all this feminzation crap and let mother nature do her job instead of taking it upon yourself. I will never buy a feminized seed again. This could have been very bad becuase I did not see it coming and could have seeded my entire crop.


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## godspeedsuckah (Sep 16, 2008)

TheEnhancementSmoker said:
			
		

> Just a hypothetical question, but...
> 
> If you crossed a hermie with a female, would this be a good way of testing strain potency, while producing seeds for future harvests?



Sorry bud, you would end up with Rosie O'donnell...


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## godspeedsuckah (Sep 16, 2008)

massproducer said:
			
		

> In the past when growing weed was not so commericalized and glamourized a very, very high percentage of growers took their hobby very serious, dead serious.  They went to every length to ensure they knew what they were doing.  They took time and actually cared, they understood that this was something that the had to commit to... and that is the problem, I see the tides shifting and everyday i see another person that is not commited to their craft.  I call it the set it and forget it syndrome.  This is the person that will ask a question before reading to see if the information is already availible in a convienent source.



Thanks to both you Massproducer and Hick for making me realize how important it is for me to take my growing very seriously. I fall into the category you just described, and I do realize how important it is for me to really educate myself on the subject. Not just the growing of marijuana, but anything that we involve ourselves in. It is much easier to find that quick fix than it is to get the answer you are looking for, and then taking the next step "Why did I get that answer, and what produced the outcome?" :48:


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## massproducer (Sep 16, 2008)

Honestly, that makes no sense to me at all.  

You said dutch passion femmed beans but what strain?  What is the other strain that you had going that wasn't femmed?  I must say that this is the VERY first time i have ever heard this, especially from Dutch Passion.  Dutch Passion invented commericalized feminized beans, in like 1987.

Do you have this documented anywhere to prove what you are saying, because if you look around at other forums, dutch passion fem's are everywhere and they have been very successful.

What you are talking about is late flowering nanners, which a lot of strains put out rather femmed or not, especially if the strain is close to being an IBL, but a nanner that begins showing at week 7, is not really a nanner.  But you have got to provide a lot more information then this.





			
				BuddyLuv said:
			
		

> Whatever you do never buy Dutch Passion fems. I bought a 10 pack and germed 5 beans. All 5 hermied on me at 7 weeks. I threw the other 5 beans away and had to use Dutchmaster Reverse on my remaing 11 plants. I have been growing an outdoor afghani strain given to me by a good friend for 15 years and have only seen 2 or 3 hermies from over hundreds of plants. I know it was not environmental stress because my room is at optimal conditions and none of the other females that came from non feminized seeds have any male flowers. Kind of sucks but you live and you learn.The only advice I can add to this is to not believe the hype of all this feminzation crap and let mother nature do her job instead of taking it upon yourself. I will never buy a feminized seed again. This could have been very bad becuase I did not see it coming and could have seeded my entire crop.


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## Tater (Sep 16, 2008)

Mass: thats another good point, lots of people confuse late sprouting pollen sacks with hermaphroditing, which isn't really the case.  The topic is quite frankly extremely confusing especially with all the conflicting view points.  I'll keep reading though and posting but only if you promise to keep correcting me lol.  Nice thread, much better than the "kill all herms" mantra that many seem to follow.


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## massproducer (Sep 16, 2008)

The other thing buddy, from finding your other post, i found out that it was blueberry that you had hermie on ya, the thing about blueberry is that it has a very high propensity to put out late flowering nanners because of its inbred genetics.  This is very documented, and not really hidden from by the two major breeders of blueberry, which are DJ and dutch passion.  I am not talking about femmed blueberry, i am talking about regular m/f blueberry.  I don't think that this plant should have even been femmed because of its strong IBL status.

So with this I am not sure that you would not have had a similar situation with regular blueberry seeds.


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## BuddyLuv (Sep 16, 2008)

This was not a few nanners inside a bud. This was full male clusters growing out of the bottom of each budding node. I understand if a nanner pops late in flowering because the plant senses a need to reproduce. These were full grown male clusters hanging right under the buds, not a single sac but more like bunches of grapes hanging down. I also spoke with Dutch Passion via email previous to my purchase. They told me they would be all female plants from genetically isolated females that were chemically forced to flower. I think maybe they are just getting lazy or just do not give two craps. Either way I learned a very important lesson, do not believe the HYPE. My Nirvana Bubblegum and White Widow are so far 100% female with no signs of any male flowers what so ever. I went through them with a fine tooth comb after th Blueberry incident.


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## massproducer (Sep 17, 2008)

I am not really understanding how you could possibly miss full grown male branches?  For these to be that mature they would have had to be forming around the same time as the females, as i said this just makes no sense to me.  especially if you are saying that 5 seperate SEEDS have done this.  Looking at the probablities of this happening naturally, even with very poorly made fems or even just using straight enviromental hermies is highly unprobable.  Not all strains grow the same and some are very hard to grow, and are not really recommended for novice growers.  For example Nevilles haze, I can almost gaurantee that 7 out of 10 growers that feel rather confident with their skills would totally ruin this plant, to the point where it is almost unsmokable.  Anytime I get 5 plants like this, i would be forced to look at my situation.  Now if you get a couple of flat out hermies right from the start then ok, but for them all to be hermied in the way that you speak, maybe this strain just didn't like your conditions.

The point being what you are saying is a very rare exception and very far from the norm.  If it were not for a hermie we would not have some of the most popular strains around, like OG KUSH and Sour Diesel and a whole slew of others.  I don't think there is any hype whatso ever


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## BuddyLuv (Sep 17, 2008)

If you look at the pics in my grow you can see why I had missed the male parts. None of the branches formed above the canopy only below it. When I went to bend a few tops down to avoid the lamps that is when I could see the clusters. So I decided to look deeper and then I found nanners sticking out of the cola's. As far as room conditions I don't think they could be better.

Room 74"Lx72"Wx82"H
2 1000w Air cooled digital lamps
Aerojet 4
Temps 64/77 at the canopy main room temp is about 75
Humidity 45%-55%
Nutrients are all advanced nutrients only the WW ever showed signs of nute burn
Sensi 2 part
Cal Mg
Carbo load
sensizym
Big Bud
Overdrive
PPM 1400 on res changes
pH 5.5-6.0 between adjustments


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## massproducer (Sep 17, 2008)

look buddy, i am not trying to argue, but I am saying that you are the exception and not the rule.  This is truly the first time I have heard this, and as i said IMO, this is just my opinion, if I had a whole strain all go hermie in week 7, I would have to look at my situation.  One of the reasons I switched to modular type hydro systems a while ago was because I found that putting different strains in the same system and treating them totally the same is far from optimal.  From reading your thread, which is wonderful, you stated that you were more the type to just come in your grow room once a day to check the ph, but some strains need more attention then that.

You have to understand that I am not advocating everyone going out and buying femmed seeds, because frankly I would probably never BUY a femmed bean ever.  I do however create my own femmed beans at times that cubing is not possible because I do not have the correct male, and at other times when I find 2 very special females that I would like to cross, as long as they fit the criteria.  I have experimented with 1000's of my own personal femmed beans, and have personally taken them down to R3 and S3, and I have never experienced any problems until I get to R2/S2, and even then, just some of the plants are weaker and as such will hermie.  Plants hermie as a response to something, not just because they feel like it.  The problem is that unless you pay close attenion to all of the signals then you would never really know that your plants are not happy with a certain aspect of their life, because not unlike people, plants can be very good at hiding problems, if you are not perticularly looking.

But regardless, I am sorry to hear the bad news.


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## BuddyLuv (Sep 17, 2008)

Here is a good question for you mass. Do you think the overdrive could have caused it? It is the only real change in the routine. They were actually doing the same as the rest until week 6 when I stopped using big bud and switched to overdrive for the last two feedings, then the flush. After that res change they seemed to stop in bud production and actually the pistils started turning amber.


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