# Need Help...



## Viracocha711 (Mar 3, 2007)

I will be growing(Flowering) in a 4' x 4' enclosed but very well ventilated space. I can't decide if I should use a 430w HPS or a 600w HPS. I want to get the best results without wasting light and cash.

One more question, does anyone use a Super Sun 2 reflector? I am looking for advice on this as well.

Thank you.


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 3, 2007)

Viracocha711 said:
			
		

> I will be growing(Flowering) in a 4' x 4' enclosed but very well ventilated space. I can't decide if I should use a 430w HPS or a 600w HPS. I want to get the best results without wasting light and cash.
> 
> One more question, does anyone use a Super Sun 2 reflector? I am looking for advice on this as well.
> 
> Thank you.


MJ will grow very well under 5,000 lumens per/sq.ft.

You have a 4' x 4' area, so 16 square feet of area.

16 x 5,000 = 80,000 lumens needed.

For the absolutely best coverage, you could use four 200 watt HPS. Each of them could be kept closer to the plant canopy than 400's or a 600, and the light would be very even throughout your grow room.

Each 200 provides close to 20,000 lumens. 4 of them would put you at a perfect 80,000 lumens that would be very adaptable and adjustable for each area of the room.

Simple bat-wing reflectors work fine and are priced good.

Good luck man!


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 3, 2007)

Thanks! I never thought about using 200w HPS...I assume they require a ballast as well? Bat winged reflectors are the way to go?


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 3, 2007)

Another quick question...If I decide to go with hydro set up could you give me some advice on how to set it up in terms of maximizing my 4x4 space? I have a been doing a lot of reading so just curious as to what you do?

Or should I go with soil? I am disabled and on SS, so I will be nwith my plants all day everyday...I kinda wanted to try hydro but i have heard soil is more productive or better quality? I assume this is highly debatable but what is your or anyone elses take on this? 

And thanks very much for your input!


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 3, 2007)

Viracocha711 said:
			
		

> Thanks! I never thought about using 200w HPS...I assume they require a ballast as well? Bat winged reflectors are the way to go?
> 
> Another quick question...If I decide to go with hydro set up could you give me some advice on how to set it up in terms of maximizing my 4x4 space? I have a been doing a lot of reading so just curious as to what you do?
> 
> ...


Yes, the 200's would need ballasts suitable for them. By using four lights, you'll have lot's of ability to alter your lighting height and by placing them right, you'll be maximizing growth.

Hydro grows are almost always faster growing than dirt grows. It's very difficult to maximize nutrient uptake as well as hydro does.

The system I've put in the DIY area is perfect for your size grow.
CLICK HERE TO GO TO IT


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 3, 2007)

Thank you very much! I am going to read that now!


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 4, 2007)

OK, I have been reading for hours and I love your hydro system! Thank you very much! I will be following it to the letter...Here is my situation, funds are tight, I am on permanent disability due to a spinal cord injury and those 200 HPS are too expensive for me to buy 4 of them...Although, I wished I could go that route how about I go with a 600W HPS Plant Light Super Sun 2 Reflector SS1 Ballast? Or should I buy the ballast seperate, because I remember reading one of your post that said an electronic ballast would be the best way to go? I have yet to price those...

Anyway, I am very anxious to get started, plus, the sooner I can have my garden going the sooner I will not have to rely on my friends nor will I have to worry about them getting busted trying help me! I can't drive a car, well, no one will let me. And that is a good thing I guess. If you only knew, well, maybe you do...The incredible but temporary relief I get from a hit or two! I'm rablin and HI...I really appreciate your help and I know your good person by reading what I have read!! I'm Baked chicken! Good Night!


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 4, 2007)

*Viracocha71:*
how about I go with a 600W HPS Plant Light Super Sun 2 Reflector SS1 Ballast? Or should I buy the ballast separate, because I remember reading one of your post that said an electronic ballast would be the best way to go? I have yet to price those...

*Stoney Bud:*
A 600W will give you enough lumens, just not real good coverage. Where are you buying your lights? What would be the final price of the 600?

The members here may be able to direct you to a less expensive source that would enable you to buy the 200 quad. Another thing to think about is that if one 200 goes out, the other 3 can be repositioned to provide almost perfect light. If the 600 goes out....

Also, the digital ballasts are WAY better than the analog ballasts. Your lights will give off better light for a longer time. The digital ballasts do cost more, but actually cost less in the long run. They are worth waiting for as are the 200W lights. I'm using a pair of 430W lights, and I wish I had gotten the four 200's in stead. I have corners that would get much better light coverage had I waited to buy this time. When I expand, the 200's will be my choice.

*Viracocha711:*
Anyway, I am very anxious to get started, plus, the sooner I can have my garden going the sooner I will not have to rely on my friends nor will I have to worry about them getting busted trying help me!

*Stoney Bud:*
Anxiousness is understandable. However, if we can find the 200 quad for you at almost the same price or just a little more, I truly think it would be worth it for you. Your future costs and/or growing problems will be lessened by doing it right the first time. The crop will benefit from the difference. Let's see if we can find the reflectors, bulbs and ballasts for you at the best price.

Hurrying and growing MJ are two things that don't go well together.

Your friends must be very good friends. Your wishing to protect them is commendable and would make me feel very good if I were them. Perhaps the price difference could be absorbed by another month of saving. If not, then the 600 will definitely grow you some serious weed.

*Viracocha711:*
I'm Baked chicken! Good Night!

*Stoney Bud:*
Hahahahahaha, that cracks me up man. This Aurora Indica I've been smoking lately makes me feel like a baked Lasagna.

Good luck to you man!


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 4, 2007)

I found ballast kits for 250w HPS for $100...But I am not sure how difficult it would be to assemble them? The bulbs I have not priced other than the ones at Home Depot. Yes, they actually sell 250W HPS but they do not carry the ballast...They are cheap $20-$30. So, if I could buy 4 ballast kits and learn how to assemble them, would this be the way to go?


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 4, 2007)

Viracocha711 said:
			
		

> I found ballast kits for 250w HPS for $100...But I am not sure how difficult it would be to assemble them? The bulbs I have not priced other than the ones at Home Depot. Yes, they actually sell 250W HPS but they do not carry the ballast...They are cheap $20-$30. So, if I could buy 4 ballast kits and learn how to assemble them, would this be the way to go?


 
Here's what I'm talking about. This system has everything in one for 90 bucks each. That's a real good deal.

Complete 250W system


27,500 lumens each. Initially, you could use only two of these until you could afford four. With two of them, you'd have 3,400 lumens per/sq ft, which would give you a good crop. When you could afford to, you could add the other two lights and max out your area.

You might think about using a dirt grow with only the lights for your first grow. That would give you time to save up for all the hydro stuff.

The materials to build my system cost about $200. With four lights, that would be $560. With two lights, $380.

If you go to a nursery, you can get 10 cheap black garden pots for almost nothing, fill them with MG like The Brothers Grunt use, and with two lights, you're off and running for about $200 bucks. No nutes to mess with, nothing to add or adjust. Great for your first grow.

Plain flat white paint on the walls.

You're growing.


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 4, 2007)

Thank you so much! That is so awesome! I love this site! I will orders those April 1st and then get started...In the mean time I can start buying some of the cheaper things I need like the buckets(what size?) and the "fill them with MG like The Brothers Grunt use" ? What is that? And maybe get some of the hydro pieces because some of that is really cheap... 

Plus, I noticed you said someone named "Mutt" (I think) is the odor specialist? I need to make sure I prepared for that...If I have not mention this, My grow room is actually an 8x5 walkin closet, but I am only utlizing 4x4 so that I can get my chair in there and shut the door and take care of my ladies. So, I guess I need to treat my odor problem as if I am using the whole room correct? 
I really appreciate your help!
BTW-Wish me luck, I have to go back to the DR this week and I may be in the hospital for a while but I hope not! If so, I may not post anything for a few days until I come home? Just so you would not think I had just disappeared. LOL!

Oh yeah...Stoney, you wrote..."Your friends must be very good friends." Dude, you have no idea how good they are to me! It is actually one friend I have had since childhood and my younger brother(best damn bro a bro could want! LOL!), both of them do not smoke yet they risk getting caught to help me! THAT IS FREAKIN SAD, THIS IS AMERICA! This is why it is so important to me to grow my own. Plus, prior to my injury I used to have a yard with bright *** green Bermuda Grass and flowers everywhere! My friends would tease me because I loved plants and flowers, so I am really going to love doing this plus I need something to take my mind off what I have lost since becoming disabled AT 33, and this is it!

I was gonna ask if it was the Okefenokee or the Everglades?


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 4, 2007)

One more question...Has anyone ever ordered from http://www.insidesun.com ?

They are so much cheaper than other places, so I just want to be sure it is a reliable biznaz.

Thanks for all your help and advice Stoney, time for my afternoon meds! Not the fun meds, the other chemical nasty eat your liver ones...YUK!


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 4, 2007)

*Viracocha711:
*Thank you so much! That is so awesome! I love this site! I will orders those April 1st and then get started...In the mean time I can start buying some of the cheaper things I need like the buckets(what size?) 

*Stoney Bud:*
If you get the 5 gallon buckets like home depot sells, that will work for your entire grow. You won't have to transplant. You'll want to get some peat pellets or rockwool cubes also. I would go with the 4 inch rockwool cubes of that is the way you go. I started using the peat pellets a long time ago and just stayed with them.

*Viracocha711:*
and the "fill them with MG like The Brothers Grunt use" ? What is that?

*Stoney Bud:*
The Brothers Grunt use the 3 month Miracle Grow mix. No other nutes until flowering. You'll need to PM him to suggest what he uses for flowering.

*Viracocha711:*
Plus, I noticed you said someone named "Mutt" (I think) is the odor specialist? I need to make sure I prepared for that...If I have not mention this, My grow room is actually an 8x5 walkin closet, but I am only utlizing 4x4 so that I can get my chair in there and shut the door and take care of my ladies. So, I guess I need to treat my odor problem as if I am using the whole room correct?

*Stoney Bud:*
Yeah, Mutt hasn't been around lately, but there are lots of threads about the odor problems and their cures. I don't use anything, so I'm not going to try to handle that for you.

*Viracocha711:*
I was gonna ask if it was the Okefenokee or the Everglades?

*Stoney Bud:*
Down on the southern side of the glades. No pets running around here. The gators take care of that. It's pretty primitive near my place. The skeeters all carry wire cutters, so screen doors aren't a problem...

Hey, good luck at the Doc man! I hope you get a purty nurse!


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 4, 2007)

Thanks...Yeah, they are purty! Well, most of them!


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 4, 2007)

You need to get a "hole drill" to put drainage holes in the bottom of the buckets. This bit is used in any size drill motor.

Just tell the guy what size drill motor you have.

The gardening dept should have the trays that fit under the buckets. Buy the clear, cheap ones. They work great.


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 11, 2007)

Originally Posted by Viracocha711
Stoney,
I have a question...In the 4 unit ebb & flow hydroponic system that you posted plans for...How many plants per 14 gal container do you suggest? Could 2 plants per container work well enough to do or should there just be one plant per container? 

Thanks for all your help!!!

Stoney bud reply: 

It would depend on how large you are going to let the plants get by harvest time and how you grow them.

I used topping and LST for one plant per/grow chamber and harvested at 4 feet tall. The area was packed full.

I've also harvested at 2.5 feet tall with 4 plants per/container with minimal topping and LST. The area was packed that time as well.

The yield was better with the one plant, 4 foot grow.

I got 18 ounces of cured weed from the 4 foot grow of one plant per/container.

I got 2 ounces per/container with the 4 plant per/container grow, so roughly half of the full grow.

If you have the height, this system loves a full topped, LST grow to about 5 feet tall. At 5 feet tall, with max topping and LST, I got 20 ounces of cured, awesome weed.


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## Fretless (Mar 11, 2007)

Just wondering, since I am planning similar dimensions, what do you mean when you say 'very well ventilated?'  I am planning on using an enclosed space with an 8" exhaust fan and vents at the bottom to draw fresh air in.  Though I have no doubt the 4x250 would be better coverage, I am leaning more towards a 600 in a cooltube with its own separate exhaust.


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 11, 2007)

bearfootbob said:
			
		

> Just wondering, since I am planning similar dimensions, what do you mean when you say 'very well ventilated?' I am planning on using an enclosed space with an 8" exhaust fan and vents at the bottom to draw fresh air in. Though I have no doubt the 4x250 would be better coverage, I am leaning more towards a 600 in a cooltube with its own separate exhaust.


The 600 will use a lot of your vertical height. You'll need a foot between the ceiling and the top of the light, for fire safety, and 21 inches of space between your light and the top of the plant canopy. That's a total of 33 inches of space.

If you use 250's, you can keep them about 6 inches from the ceiling and only 8 inches from the plant canopy.

You can grow the plants 19 inches taller in the same amount of space.

By very well ventilated, I mean so that the internal temperature of the grow area stays at about 75 degrees F.

Regardless of how you get there, that's the temperature of the grow area that you want to maintain.


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## Fretless (Mar 11, 2007)

21" clearance, air-cooled?  That really bums me out.


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 12, 2007)

bearfootbob said:
			
		

> 21" clearance, air-cooled? That really bums me out.


The air cooled feature will dramatically help keep the grow area cooler. However, the infrared that is put out from the light isn't affected by cooling the light or by fans. That's what will burn your plant up if you place it too close to the plants.


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## Fretless (Mar 12, 2007)

I am seeing your point now.  250w @ 8" is a lot more footcandles than 600w @ 21".   It has been a difficult search finding actual results of people using cool tubes and the like.  But the figures I have come across, for instance from a post to Rosenthal, show that you can indeed get closer with air-cooling - but - the distances are not as dramatic as one might hope, and in footcandles, isn't any more energy than a 250w @ 8".  In fact the figures Rosenthal gave matched it exactly ~ 18" for 1kw, 12" for 400w (air cooled).  
     Eventually I did come across some examples of people getting much closer, no doubt using very expensive and powerful exhaust in the reflector, more equipment than most people can afford.
     A lot of IR radiation is, in fact, thermal, which accounts for the improved distances, but then a good bit of IR is closer to microwaves and as you say, doesn't care about air movement and fries plants just the same.
    So, thanks for the info friend.  Re-thinking my layout again, but this is good.


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 12, 2007)

Stoney, I have been searching and reading trying to make a detailed parts list for the 4 unit hydro system...Now, I have found a parts list you posted "http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5120&page=2" and the pump...I have read the DIY several times and tried to get what I could out of the pics and drawings. I am just not sure if I am missing anything. I have to have everything right because I am handicapped and cannot drive so I do not want to keep bugging folks for a ride if I can get everything in one outing. So this is why I am trying really hard to make a parts list.

So, real quick, pump starts and water is pumped out of res through a 3/8" fitting/hose at the bottom of res to a 3/8" to 1" reducer and from this point on the entire system is 1" pvc fittings and hose that will slip over the pvc to make connections using hose clamps? Except for the bulhead fittings which  I can get the bulkhead fittings from the pet store website you posted which happens to be where I buy all my Chihuahua's toys and meds...

Pump-3/8" tube-3/8" to 1" reducer-1" Supply to bottom of each grow chamber and 1" return back to top of res.


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 13, 2007)

Viracocha711 said:
			
		

> So, real quick, pump starts and water is pumped out of res through a 3/8" fitting/hose at the bottom of res to a 3/8" to 1" reducer and from this point on the entire system is 1" pvc fittings and hose that will slip over the pvc to make connections using hose clamps? Except for the bulhead fittings which I can get the bulkhead fittings from the pet store website you posted which happens to be where I buy all my Chihuahua's toys and meds...
> 
> Pump-3/8" tube-3/8" to 1" reducer-1" Supply to bottom of each grow chamber and 1" return back to top of res.


You'll need a timer for your pump as well.

The 3/8" to 1" is a bit of a trick unless you get lucky. Check the galvanized nipples and reducers. That's what I ended up using this time.

Other than that, you seem to have it down man!

Good luck and if you only have to make one trip to the hardware store, you're a very lucky man.

Don't forget the stainless steel clamps. You need to make a good count of how many you'll need and what sizes. Put one on anything that can leak. Careful not to overtighten and break plastic.


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 13, 2007)

As always, thanks!

Yeah, I seriously doubt I will get away with one trip to the hardware store but I am going to try!


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 13, 2007)

Viracocha711 said:
			
		

> As always, thanks!
> 
> Yeah, I seriously doubt I will get away with one trip to the hardware store but I am going to try!


If you do it, I'm submitting you to the Guiness Book of Records!

Getting everything in one trip to a hardware store is against every rule in the book of life...Hahahahaha


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 14, 2007)

The pump you suggested, The Beckett 185gph, do you use this pump in your system? The reason I ask, I wanted to be sure it would not corrode fast due to the nutrient solution. I have read that some pumps will so I thought I would ask if you have had any problems with corrosion,Thanks.


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 14, 2007)

One more question...pH and PPM testers, what do you use? I know these are very important tools to have, right?


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## Stoney Bud (Mar 14, 2007)

Viracocha711 said:
			
		

> The pump you suggested, The Beckett 185gph, do you use this pump in your system? The reason I ask, I wanted to be sure it would not corrode fast due to the nutrient solution. I have read that some pumps will so I thought I would ask if you have had any problems with corrosion,Thanks.


I've been using the Beckett pump for 7 crops now. No problems, no corrosion. It's a solid little pump. I do have a backup. That's the only smart thing to do.




			
				Viracocha711 said:
			
		

> One more question...pH and PPM testers, what do you use? I know these are very important tools to have, right?


 
Oh God, every time I answer this question, someone raises hell with me.

No, I've never used any meters of any kind. Call it whatever you wish, I don't use them. If you have water that may be trouble, then by all means, buy and use them.

I mix my nutes with extreme care, and I don't use anything but the one brand of nutes and water. I use General Hydroponics Flora series with the hard water Micros.

Since you're new at this, I would suggest that you use the meters.


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## Viracocha711 (Mar 14, 2007)

ok...Sorry to bring up a touchy subject. I guess I am doing well considering all the questions I have asked and this is the first that may have a little controversy behind it. I understand, and i will lay off meter questions...I have always made it a practice to let water sit out in a big buckett prior to watering my house plants, so I assume the same would apply here prior to mixing nutes...I too, have never had any water issues that I know of...Is cannabis a sensitive plant? I would think not, but I guess with all the cross breeding that has been done some strains are?

Anyway, I really appreciate your help and I really hope I have not been a mold spore on your bud?


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