# understanding runoff data



## LoveIt (Feb 3, 2008)

:confused2:
i'm having a hard time finding a clear explaination about how to interpret the comparison of what goes in with what cometh out.  what things can it tell one about a plant's nutrient needs, even without seeing its leaves?

i've recorded the pH and ppm readings of the runoff of my plants for over a month...  check out the snapshot of a few days of my records.  anybody like to analyze this stuff?  (there are "?"s after the pH readings because my pen has been behaving a bit shady.  a new electrode is on the way...)

i've been using 5.8 pH'd feed, and the medium is coco/perlite (2/1).  here's a game for you, haha- can anyone guess how the plants are doing, or say about how old they are? using biobizz biogrow.


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## snuggles (Feb 3, 2008)

wow that doesn't seem right. I feed with 5.8 and rarely get anything larger than 6.2. Is there anything else in the mix? Also are the seeds started in rockwool, was the rockwool soaked prior? We have to get you figured out, like I said I water with 5.8 and get no higher than 6.2 so I don't know what's going on with you....


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## LoveIt (Feb 3, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> wow that doesn't seem right. I feed with 5.8 and rarely get anything larger than 6.2. Is there anything else in the mix? Also are the seeds started in rockwool, was the rockwool soaked prior? We have to get you figured out, like I said I water with 5.8 and get no higher than 6.2 so I don't know what's going on with you....


nothing else.  started them in coco coir.  i repotted them about 7-8 days ago and used 2:1 coco/perlite ratio.  the medium was rinsed with 5.8 pH'd water until the runoff ppm matched the tap, and until the pH got pretty much down to 5.8.  i got rid of most of the rootballs of the old coco (which wasn't properly flushed in the beginning, and didn't have any perlite mixed in).  i've started to disregard the pH of the runoff, and i have seen others talk about that on the net, and i can't figure out exactly what is still happening to cause pH to rise. BUT... i am really curious to understand tds of runoff... what kinds of things can it mean if it is higher or lower than the feed?  how can it inform how to adjust the level of the next feed?


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## snuggles (Feb 3, 2008)

Not to sure but I think I read somewhere that pH going up usually means it's eating more than drinking, or vice versa. Man I waish I could remember and I am not near any of my "books". Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but PH rises when more food than water is being used? A little help would help you I know. Also you flushed with 5.8 so that is good and no rockwool. Tapwater? RO?


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## LoveIt (Feb 5, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> Not to sure but I think I read somewhere that pH going up usually means it's eating more than drinking, or vice versa. Man I waish I could remember and I am not near any of my "books". Someone should correct me if I'm wrong, but PH rises when more food than water is being used? A little help would help you I know. Also you flushed with 5.8 so that is good and no rockwool. Tapwater? RO?


ok, i think i remember something about that now, too... if that's true, then the strange thing is that if the runoff pH is high, meaning the plants are eating more than drinking, then wouldn't the tds be lower in the runoff than the feed?  the tds of the runnoff in mine pretty consistently grows higher than the feed each day, as much as 20-50 ppm, even more at times.  i use tap water, and the tds of that is about 80-100 ppm depending upon the day.  eventually i'm gonna set up a bank of reservoirs so i can premix my feed, and ultimately rig up a drip system... as you can see, i'm changing everything about my grow, lol.  i've been waiting for new stuff to get to me, and then i'll be starting my next grow: apollo 13 sativa c/o worldwidemarijuanaseeds, within days, using our buddy's rw method 

anyway, here's a couple of pics of my big female somango (s1-12/3/07)... not really seeing burn on the leaves, but the curling is frightening.  but then again, its leaves have pretty much always been like that...  gotta hit the hay now- thanks for the help snugg!  i would welcome responses from others, too, please.


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## blunt (Feb 5, 2008)

looks too wet to me


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## LoveIt (Feb 5, 2008)

thanks blunt, that did cross my mind some time ago, with the leaves turned down like that.  you know, come to think of it, they've been that way since it was a sprout.  it's just gotten more pronounced, plus some discoloration on the leaves, and the new growth looks bright yellow and has pretty much halted.  i have another somango that is younger, by about 2 or 3 weeks i think.  below, i've posted a young pic of the older somango that's in trouble (you can see how the leaves curled down like that even when it was young-  i just figured it was how the strain looked or something), and the next pic is a current shot of my younger somango, which seems much happier.


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## That crazy vancouver guy (Feb 5, 2008)

ya... looks to me like they are being drowned. how often do you water?


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## snuggles (Feb 5, 2008)

If it helps LoveIt I water about 3 times a week with my mix and mine is quite airy. 

Maybe I should look at the chart again to see what is different from mine...mine are doing good for the most part....they got something else going on...LOL.

OK I looked at the chart again and it looks like you are watering and feeding everyday, I wouldn't water that much or feed that much to be honest with you. Also how airy is the coco mix, I would maybe air it out a bit more....maybe let it dry a bit then transplant to a slightly bigger pot, in the bigger pot I would put mostly perlite on the bottom, or hydroton...something to get the air flow going real good to the roots. And I would mix up a perlite heavy mix for the rest of the pots. I'm no expert but I looked for where you differ from me.

Major differences besides strains...although I'm doing WW....

I water max three times a week. I don't feed as much, I usually feed, then water, water again and then feed. 

I flush often to clean it out, maybe every three weeks or so.

And the last thing is my mix is more like 50/50 coco perlite.


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## I'ma Joker Midnight Toker (Feb 5, 2008)

Drowned and a it looks like it needs Nitrogen ...IMHO


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## blunt (Feb 5, 2008)

loveit, im having the same issue ...  my PPM rises 20-100 points after each feeding. i was drowning my plants but have since backed off and they are improving greatly but im curious why the PPM keeps rising. im wondering if its nute lock or minor nute lock? i have several different unknown strains going as this is bagseed so each one reacts a little differently. after drying out a bit new growth on most seems too light green to me. others look good.  if you ever figure it out id love to know. back before i put them into flower i had them in a similar ebb and flow and the PPM consistently went down after each feeding like clockwork. so whats different?


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## snuggles (Feb 5, 2008)

Also what kind of pH up and down are you using? And how much on average?


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## blunt (Feb 5, 2008)

i have a 22 gallon res and i use on average 2 tbls of ph down. ive yet to have to use PH up. its GH stuff. after feeding its normally at 6.0 and 2 tbls brings it to 5.7- 5.8



			
				snuggles said:
			
		

> Also what kind of pH up and down are you using? And how much on average?


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## Mr. Bubbles (Feb 5, 2008)

Great read and some nice documentation you got there. I wish you the best of luck friend.


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## snuggles (Feb 5, 2008)

Do you have nice airflow there? Also when you water everyday how much water is being used?


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## blunt (Feb 5, 2008)

i have a 500CFM fan running every other hour during lights on (12/12) 
i add about a gallon a day to the res.
i dont mean to jump into loveits thread but since we are having the same issues i thought we could learn from each others info



			
				snuggles said:
			
		

> Do you have nice airflow there? Also when you water everyday how much water is being used?


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## LoveIt (Feb 6, 2008)

thank you everyone!  i really appreciate your support.  getting s1 healthy is obviously a big priority for me, considering it's a she, and has several shoots that look like they could become cloneable.  i am still looking for some insight into the main question i posted though, about understanding the significance of runoff tds vs. feed tds.



			
				I'ma Joker Midnight Toker said:
			
		

> Drowned and a it looks like it needs Nitrogen ...IMHO



about the nitrogen- i agree, which is why i've been giving it 1000 ppm of biogrow, and that's it.  there was a time when i was mixing in all of the recommended biobizz supplements, but i've been giving all of my plants just plain grow for a while now.  should be lots of nitrogen in the medium, but perhaps it is locked out due to waterlogging or whatever...



			
				That crazy vancouver guy said:
			
		

> ya... looks to me like they are being drowned. how often do you water?



daily, with a missed day here or there.  yesterday, i didn't water.  i'm thinking i'll try every other day.



			
				snuggles said:
			
		

> I water max three times a week. I don't feed as much, I usually feed, then water, water again and then feed. I flush often to clean it out, maybe every three weeks or so. And the last thing is my mix is more like 50/50 coco perlite.



thx all you guys- based on your reactions, it sounds like i should take a closer look at my watering/feeding schedule  s1 does seem to show symptoms of overwatering.  i don't know if i'm going to run a journal for these plants until i get some clones, but please look at the pics of my other ones, and tell me if you think they look overwatered, too.  i'm curious if any/all of you have experience using coco coir (i know you do snug).  there is little discussion on the web about it, and a bit of conflicting info going around as well.  i have a feeling that since many people use coco very differently, maybe the key is having the right amount and frequency of feed for the porosity of medium you have prepared.  i haven't found much discussion of coco grows, but on another forum, there are some dedicated sections for coco growers, and i have seen some who water WITH nutes multiple times per day, and others every few days, and i've seen people use everything from 100% coco, to 30% coco/70% perlite.  it seems like as soon as one figures out how to read the signs of the plants, you can pretty much do anything you want- trying to get there lol

here's a history of my trials in coco coir so far, so some of the problems you see may not just have to do with overwatering: 

11/30: hydrate coco (using tap water, pH 7.2-ish, ppm of tap approx. 90.)
note- did not flush, because it was my understanding that i didn't have to with my brand of coco- also, i did not have a pH pen at the time...  oops.

12/3: plant first batch in 100% coco (3 somango, 3 white widow).  heavily overnuted with root juice... oops.

12/24:  plant second batch in 100% coco (2 somango, 3 white widow).  after having some problems with the first batch, i started these, figuring they would be much happier this time with just a hint of root juice.

in the begining of january, i tested some unused, unflushed coco, and found the ppm of the runoff to be around 1000.  wow.  oops.  so i flushed all plants heavily with 5.8 pH'ed water.

1/5: dealing with deficiencies- due to lockout- or something... began adding cal/mag, having read coco is a cal/mag hog.  up to this point, have been giving a little of everything in the biobizz line... oops.  (keep in mind, i have completed one grow and smoked the bud, but i think i was maybe accidentally successful, haha.  on my current grow, i'm having a much harder time, but i'm doing things much differently, and my copious mistakes have caused me to learn quite a lot, and gain much more control... even though i'm changing my medium asap, i'd like to figure out how steer these plants back to the right path)

1/14: realize i've been mistakenly feeding bloom nutes the whole time, 'cause i was incorrectly reading the biobizz feed schedule... oops.  (stopped using out the biobloom and top max)

1/23: repotted everything with coco/perlite 2/1, before potting flushed until runoff was 5.8-6.3 pH and matched the tap ppm of about 97, and fed everything 5.8pH 600ppm feed.  i did disrupt the rootballs pretty intensely, to try to get rid of as much of the old coco as possible... this could have caused some major problems for some of them... who knows.

1/28-2/3: finally starting to figure some things out, and my pH pen breaks :hairpull: took a week to get a new one... added a little less than the typical amount of pH down for the week, just to try to keep pH of feed from being way too high.  just giving them biogrow at about this point in time until present.  i have given some bioheaven and alg-a-mic- just a hint with one feeding a few days ago.

today one of each variety remains from each seed sowing.  had three others hanging on, but i ended their struggle 2 days ago- tired of fussing with them.

snug, i will try what you suggest, about adding more perlite, expecially to the bottom of the pot, as it sounds like a lack of oxgen to the roots could be a part of the slow growth problem.  most people i have talked to about it treat coco coir as a hydro medium, watering and feeding the plants daily.

i'm going to keep these four plants i have going now in coco long enough to get some clones if i can.  i have lots of coco and biobizz nutes, and i was hoping i could figure out how to use it all, but in the meantime, i'm starting a rock wool grow right away, using the much simpler, ionic nutes.  i'm germing some my apollo 13 sativa and remaining somango seeds tonight, and when i do, i'll start a journal for that.  just installed a replacement electrode for my hanna pH meter, and got a new ec truncheon in the post yesterday!



			
				blunt said:
			
		

> loveit, im having the same issue ... my PPM rises 20-100 points after each feeding. i was drowning my plants but have since backed off and they are improving greatly but im curious why the PPM keeps rising. im wondering if its nute lock or minor nute lock?



yes, it's frustrating not knowing why it does that! see my response to snug's runoff amount question below for an elaboration my on runoff frustrations, haha...



			
				snuggles said:
			
		

> Also what kind of pH up and down are you using? And how much on average?



i'm using pro pH down, haven't needed pH up... just using whatever it takes to make my meter go from 7.2 to 5.8, it's about 1/4 tsp per gallon to lower .5 pH, if my memory serves...



			
				Mr. Bubbles said:
			
		

> Great read and some nice documentation you got there. I wish you the best of luck friend.



thanks mr.b, it's nice to hear from you- gotta check out your skunk journal!



			
				snuggles said:
			
		

> Do you have nice airflow there? Also when you water everyday how much water is being used?



there is a fan blowing on the light and wiggling the plants, a dehumidifier in the corner, and co2boost as well, so airflow should be fine.  i use about 250ml of feed for the small pots, and 500-1000ml for the big pots.  most of this runs off.  i have read a little about how much to let runoff, and have seen people say to allow 10-20% runoff, but this doesn't make sense to me.  most of it runs off in my 2:1 ratio mix, it doesn't hold 80-90% of the feed in a coco/perlite mix!!!  so, for instance, if i fed 250ml, and 200ml runs off, what is this telling me, am i grossly overfeeding?  i thought you could let it runoff as much as you want, the more the merrier, doesn't it just flush salts, and replace the stale feed with fresh.  i've noticed also, if i test runoff, and then feed more of the same, the runoff levels rise... why?  shouldn't the runoff get closer to your feed, not further away, the more of it you allow to runoff?



			
				blunt said:
			
		

> i dont mean to jump into loveits thread but since we are having the same issues i thought we could learn from each others info



yes sir- you are welcome anytime!  please let me know if you find anything out anywhere else!!

okay, end of book- now i'll post some pics..


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## LoveIt (Feb 6, 2008)

so the pics from left to right (starting at the top) on the last post are:

somango 1 (12/3) side, top, preflower, potential clone sites

somango 2 (12/24) side, top

white widow 1 (12/3) side, top, and an upper node- this was a mutant plant that i almost killed, just kept it growing, the nodes are very clustered... not sure if this is good or bad, but i figured it'd be fun to see what it would do, haha

white widow 2 (12/24) side, top

below, i've posted an updated data pic, a pic of what goes into the feed, a little note i found on the back of the biogrow, and a shot of the meters i use.


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## snuggles (Feb 6, 2008)

You pH the water first right? Then add nutes. Yeah you can feed every watering but I never do it tends to build up, like I said I'm a flusher too. I guess you just have to wait and see if the less watering helps


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## LoveIt (Feb 6, 2008)

snuggles said:
			
		

> You pH the water first right? Then add nutes. Yeah you can feed every watering but I never do it tends to build up, like I said I'm a flusher too. I guess you just have to wait and see if the less watering helps



actually, i pH after i add nutes 

if i pH the water to 5.8 before adding nutes, when i add them, the pH goes up to the mid 6s...

if i add nutes first, that brings the pH of the tap water down to about 6.3, and then i can add less pH down to get the feed down to 5.8... is there a hidden negative aspect here?  seems like the most efficient way to do it to me, not that i'm exactly having a spottless grow lol

the two young plants seem perky, so far it's the older ones that have issues, but they have gone through more strife... s1 definitely has perked up today, and none of the plants have showed any wilting yet, so i'm going to go with every other day for now and see what happens.

thanks for reading my book


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## snuggles (Feb 6, 2008)

I was always under the understanding that you pHed first then added nutes. Not sure if all nutes are like that or not.


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## That crazy vancouver guy (Feb 7, 2008)

I'm of the same line of thinking, snuggly poo...   the ferts SHOULD be PH neutral, but that my not be the case... prob better to check after, but I do it before myself, so... what can I say???

u know what I'm tihinking... this Cocoa stuff u r using... I'm not familiar with it... it could be that it holds moisture a lot better than the soil I'm used to... (premier HP commercial potting soil). i still think the babies r being drowned... use a mailsture meter to tell if they need watering... and feed, water, water, feed, water, water... just my advice... oh ya.. with teh moisture meter, make sure it's inserted into teh BOTTOM of the rootball and make sure it's a couple days into "Dry" before it's watered again... but not before the droopy leaf stage from lack of water... not the droopy that you see now....


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## LoveIt (Feb 7, 2008)

That crazy vancouver guy said:
			
		

> the ferts SHOULD be PH neutral, but that my not be the case... prob better to check after, but I do it before myself, so... what can I say???



hmmn... well, i have tried it both ways, and the pH of my tapwater always goes from about 7.2/.3 down to 6.4/.6 when i add nutes, and when i _first_ pH the water to 5.8 and _then_ add nutes, the pH raises to 6.4-ish, so biobizz biogrow, at the least, is slightly acidic.  you guys obviously know how to grow better than i do, but check your pH after you add the nutes, and maybe you'll find it's different.

why don't you do an experiment for us and post the results here? 



			
				That crazy vancouver guy said:
			
		

> u know what I'm tihinking... this Cocoa stuff u r using... I'm not familiar with it... it could be that it holds moisture a lot better than the soil I'm used to... (premier HP commercial potting soil). i still think the babies r being drowned... use a mailsture meter to tell if they need watering... and feed, water, water, feed, water, water... just my advice... oh ya.. with teh moisture meter, make sure it's inserted into teh BOTTOM of the rootball and make sure it's a couple days into "Dry" before it's watered again... but not before the droopy leaf stage from lack of water... not the droopy that you see now....



thanks for your advice, tcvg, and for taking the time to check out what i'm doing.  you know, it's interesting, i have always heard that it is "impossible" to overwater coco, and difficult to underwater, because it's reputed to hold just the right amount of water.  some say "never let the medium dry out", and others, "always let it dry out between feedings".  coco is often described as being newbie-friendly, because it is forgiving when it comes to over-/under-watering, and people who use it well say it offers benefits of both hydro and soil, but i won't know what that means until i try a couple side-by-side grows.  i think i may soon try what snuggles suggests and repot with much more perlite to lighten up the mix.  i really want to get coco under control, so i think i will continue to experiment with it, just for fun, maybe with some bagseed or something until my killing spree stops :rofl: ....but seriously, i'm really looking forward to my rock wool grow, i have expert guidance for that method 

here's some pics of what i'm germing right this moment:  apollo 13 sativa c/o worldwidemarijuanaseeds!


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## LoveIt (Feb 15, 2008)

for the past several feedings, i've let the plants dry out a day or two in between.  i repotted the two young plants, doing a 50/50 coco/perlite mix, as you recommended, snuggles- they seem happy.  tcvg, you and snugg were both 100% right about the overwatering, too.  i see now that i was waaaaay overdoing it, and it's very satisfying to see that the pH of the runoff has dropped with each feed, and it's nearing a normal level around 6.3.  i suppose my blunders mean i should fine-tune not only frequency, but amount of watering.  i fed them two days ago, and today i am switching from fox farm grow big to ionic grow, and we'll see how that goes... i switched 'em off the biobizz on 2/8, and it's been 2 feeds of the ffgb, and now i'll just use ionic and see how they do on that, should be good for coco.

the leaves on the older somango recovered some green, and lifted a little, but i think they will always be withered.  the new growth on all four plants is dark green, and leaves are looking more normal shaped.  thanks you guys for your advice!!!

ah, but now i have 15 sprouts in rock wool, and 2-3 more to plant, and then we'll see... maybe i'll get two lights and do a full-on side by side coco rockwool grow off!!!! ..._naaaah_  (i'd kinda like to... way too much work for now tho)

when i have some more time, i'll post some new pics and a data snapshot for anyone who's interested in seeing the figures-- it takes some time to record this info every feed, but it's proved to be informative!


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