# Are these IBLs



## pawpaw (Jul 9, 2011)

Getting seeds is problematic for me soI want to do it only once.  Plan is to get IBLs produce and storeseeds to replace mothers when lost then grow from clones.  I am underthe impression that the following strains are stable and would liketo know if this is true:

Black Widow 
AK-47
Bubblegum
Critical Mass

If you know of any other IBLSthat are of this quality that info would also be much appreciated.

Thanks,

 pawpaw


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## 4u2sm0ke (Jul 10, 2011)

:bump:


Good luck on ya search..sorry Im no help 


take care and be safe:48:


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## Roddy (Jul 10, 2011)

Ibl??


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## Locked (Jul 10, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> Ibl??



Found this online:

*An IBL (inbred line) is a genetically homogeneous strain that                                     grows uniformly from seed.

                                    A hybrid is a strain made up of two genetically unlike parents,                                     IBL or hybrid.

                                    When you cross two different IBL strains for the FIRST time, it                                     is called the F1 generation. When you cross two of the same F1                                     hybrid (inbreed), it is called the F2 generation.

                                    The process of selective inbreeding must continue at least                                     until the F4 to stabilize the recurrently selected traits. When                                     you cross two specimens of an IBL variety, you get more of the                                     same, because an IBL is homozygous, or true breeding for                                     particular traits.
​*


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## Mutt (Jul 10, 2011)

depends on the breeder and how stable the seeds are, but all strains online are supposed to be an IBL. Femd seeds do not fall in this category. They are back crossed and stable but because they are "feminized" they do not make for good candidates for future in breeding or outcrossing. You want regular seeds if planning to make more seeds.


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## Roddy (Jul 10, 2011)

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> Found this online:
> 
> *An IBL (inbred line) is a genetically homogeneous strain that                                     grows uniformly from seed.
> 
> ...




THANKS, my furry friend!!! Great post!


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## pawpaw (Jul 10, 2011)

Mutt said:
			
		

> depends on the breeder and how stable the seeds are, but all strains online are supposed to be an IBL.


 

I am very nearly certain this is nottrue.  From H.Lewis' post a hybrid is not an IBL.  A hybrid does notgrow true from its own seed.  To produce a hybrid seed a crosspollination must be made each time.  The vast majority of seeds onthe market are in fact hybrids.  Other than those there are a handfulof landraces (naturally occuring IBLs) such as hindu kush, and manmade IBLs such as the original NorthernLights.


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## pawpaw (Jul 10, 2011)

Here is a pilferd list it has much in common with other such lists I've found though AK-47 shows on some others.  What I am hoping to find is someone who can speak from experience in raising from their own seed that these are IBL at least in terms of the high if not their phenotype.

Skunk #1 
California Orange 
Afghani #1
Hindu Kush
South African Durban Posion (Durban)
Early girl 
Northern Lights
Big Bud
Blueberry
Mighty Mite
Thai
Swazi
Shiva Skunk
Original Haze
White Widow
Black Widow
Super Skunk
Malawi Gold
Bubblegum
Deep Chunk

To correct my statement in the previous post:

Landraces are heterozygous at all alleles while an IBL may be heterozygous at only the alleles of interst to the breeder.


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## ozzydiodude (Jul 10, 2011)

Pawpaw if you look at The list of strain lineages(http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57233) I just posted you will see that most of the strains on your list are hybrids that have been backcrossed(IBLed) til they are stable and product almost the same smoke from all seeds.


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## pawpaw (Jul 10, 2011)

ozzydiodude said:
			
		

> Pawpaw if you look at The list of strain lineages(http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57233) I just posted you will see that most of the strains on your list are hybrids that have been backcrossed(IBLed) til they are stable and product almost the same smoke from all seeds.


 
Well yes, if a strain is not a landrace it must have been hybridized somewhere  back in its lineage, right?  The distinction really is whether or not it breeds true (interms of the relevant traits, and because of inbreeding and backcossing).  I admit that I've just started studying genetics but I do think this is correct.

Edit
added ( and because of inbreeding and backcossing)


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## Mutt (Jul 10, 2011)

pawpaw said:
			
		

> I am very nearly certain this is nottrue.  From H.Lewis' post a hybrid is not an IBL.  A hybrid does notgrow true from its own seed.  To produce a hybrid seed a crosspollination must be made each time.  The vast majority of seeds onthe market are in fact hybrids.  Other than those there are a handfulof landraces (naturally occuring IBLs) such as hindu kush, and manmade IBLs such as the original NorthernLights.



I think you got a little confused. It's easy to get all these terms mixed up.
Landrace is not and should not be stable like a hybridized inbred line. There should be several phenos expressing themselves. It is inbred but not selective breeding...except mom natures selection. but it's not what IBL means. 

Inbred Line in the "growers" world is what Most strains on the market are. They breed true with little pheno variation. Hybrids that were selectively inbred (whether Bx, Selfed, cubing, or recurrent selection) to create an IBL. Thus why a lot of us frown on naming an F1 hybrid outcross prior to it going through a selection process. 



FYI Northern Lights 1,2,5,9 all are hybrids that turned out to be extremely stable IBL. #5 being the best one. It is a hybrid of both indica and sativa. It is not a landrace. It is in your words. A man-made IBL which is the product of an F1 hybrid cross from two unrelated parents that was selectively inbred that gave the results of an extremely stable IBL. Not much different then White Widow, and many many other strains like cindy99, and well look at Ozzy's link.

One thing with seedbanks. They will use terms like IBL or Landrace just to justify higher price tag.



			
				OGFAQ said:
			
		

> An IBL (inbred line) is a genetically homogeneous strain that grows uniformly from seed.
> 
> A hybrid is a strain made up of two genetically unlike parents, IBL or hybrid.
> 
> ...



So basically. an IBL was at one point a F1 hybrid. That was selectively inbred to breed true thus creating an IBL. If you take a outcross. then inbreed it by targeting specific traits. Then when the progeny of those seeds replicate the parents. You have made an IBL. Landrace is the purest form of an IBL...but landraces are NOT stable.


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## Locked (Jul 10, 2011)

Thanks Mutt.....:goodposting:


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## pawpaw (Jul 11, 2011)

Yes much thanks.  So to clarify,  If I buy a "good strain" and grow seeds from it those seeds should produce individuals with the range of phenotypes exhibited by the boughten batch of seed?

Again, thanks.


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## Mutt (Jul 11, 2011)

pawpaw said:
			
		

> Yes much thanks.  So to clarify,  If I buy a "good strain" and grow seeds from it those seeds should produce individuals with the range of phenotypes exhibited by the boughten batch of seed?
> 
> Again, thanks.



you got it 
Breeder packs (regular NOT femd) should breed true if they don't I would pass that breeder off as a hack.


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## pawpaw (Jul 22, 2011)

These quotes from the wikiP on F1 return me to my original doubts based on experience with hybred corn in the 70's :confused2: 




> F1 hybrid is a term used in genetics and selective breeding. F1 stands for Filial 1, the first filial generation seeds/plants or animal offspring resulting from a cross mating of distinctly different parental types.[1] The term is sometimes written with a subscript, as F1 hybrid.[2][3] The offspring of distinctly different parental types produce a new, uniform variety with specific characteristics from either or both parents.
> 
> 
> While an F2 hybrid, the result of self or cross pollination of an F1, does not have the consistency of the F1 hybrid, it *may *retain some desirable traits and can be produced more cheaply as no intervention in the pollination is required. Some seed companies offer F2 seed, particularly in
> ...


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## Mutt (Jul 22, 2011)

Those quotes are too vague. Need to review mendal's laws of inheritance, and dominant and recessive traits.
Inbred depression is it's own beast. You have to inbreed down really far to start seeing those problems manifest. By then it's a stable inbred line. I have went as far as F5 without seeing mutants (autoflowers the exception)


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## pawpaw (Jul 22, 2011)

I have deleted several post because they reflect a misunderstanding on my part of what mutt was saying.  And I think his use of the term "vague" threw me off a bit in the last post as teh definitions of all the terms are determinant.  Their problem may be incompleteness ?

So what I conclude is that I should avoid F1s or strains that are expressed in terms of crosses because those imply F1s or at least insufficient line breeding to establish an IBL.  Anyway I think I'm finally clear on this and thank you again.

As for loss of vigor I have to wonder if it varies with species as I know it often is even at the F2 in corn, while from talking to my neighbors who raise Brangus I know they proceed through a good many generations of line breeding before having problems with loss of vigor.


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