# ebb and flow, root growth



## flutefixer (Aug 16, 2009)

my plants have been in the 12/12 ebb and flow for 7 days now, they are in 8 inch pots, I started the seedlings in rockwool and transplanted the rockwool cube to hydroton than put that into an 8inch pot,I am getting some root growth comming out of the pots now,am not sure what to do ????should I let them grow and lay exposed in the tray, or should I get some rockwool slabs and set the pots on that, somebody once said I could cut the exposed roots but this sound a bit extreme to me? any ideas. thanks


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## Barbapopa (Aug 16, 2009)

I would put slabs underneath your pots, they still have a lot more growing to do if you are only into week 1 of flower.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 16, 2009)

Ideally, your entire net pot should be buried. Some pics of your system would help.

Here's what I use; my clones are put into 1 inch net pots of hydroton and rooted. When they've rooted, I put them so that the TOP of the net pot is 2" BELOW the surface of my tub of hydroton.

That way, the roots can grow 360 degrees as fast as they can and no light hits any of the roots.

You need to modify your system so that the roots are in some sort of media and hidden completely from light.


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## Barbapopa (Aug 16, 2009)

Out of curiosity, how come you don't just use 4" or 6" rockwool cubes?


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## cubby (Aug 16, 2009)

My first grow I had the same problem. I fixed it by putting the eight inch pots in one gallon pots with perlite. I put landscape fabric in the bottom of the one gallon pots so the perlite would'nt wash out, then put in enough perlite to bring the rim of the eight inch about an inch below the one gallon pot, then fill in around it with more perlite. As long as your holding tray fills to within 2/3 - 3/4 the hieght of the one gallon pots this should solve your problem, it worked fine for me.
 Best of luck and take care.


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## flutefixer (Aug 16, 2009)

does this mean your tub is filled with hydroton? I have a 3 x6 table, is it a viable option to fill it with hydroton?seams like ALOT of hydroton,perhaps I misunderstood?


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## OGKushman (Aug 16, 2009)

OP, you have the right idea


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## OriginalGrower (Aug 17, 2009)

Barbapopa said:
			
		

> I would put slabs underneath your pots, they still have a lot more growing to do if you are only into week 1 of flower.


this is exactly what I was thinking.

Why no rockwool cubes?


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## TURKEYNECK (Aug 17, 2009)

OriginalGrower said:
			
		

> this is exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> Why no rockwool cubes?


 
Some folks believe that the rockwool holds too much moisture which would deprive the roots of oxygen but alot of people do it successfully. Obviously you wouldn't need to flood nearly as often with more rockwool...GL


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## StoneyBud (Aug 17, 2009)

flutefixer said:
			
		

> does this mean your tub is filled with hydroton? I have a 3 x6 table, is it a viable option to fill it with hydroton?seams like ALOT of hydroton,perhaps I misunderstood?


Yes, you fill the entire table with hydroton. It isn't really "a lot", it's just what is needed. The hydroton should be two inches ABOVE the level of the highest water mark. This prevents light from reaching the root system or nutrient solution. 

The root system needs to be completely under the surface. Rockwool cubes work great with drip systems IF the drip is adjusted to NOT cause over wetness and root rot.

In an ebb and flow system, it's better to root the plants in 1.5" rockwool and as soon as the roots start showing on the outside of the cube, bury the cube in hydroton and start your ebb and flow.

The cubes should be buried so that the TOP of the rockwool cube is 2 inches below the surface of the hydroton.

I understand that hydroton is expensive. If that is something that stops you from using it, then some other form of growing might be best for you.

Dirt grows are much less costly. Ebb and Flow is probably the most expensive manner of growing there is, initially, but it does pay off with accelerated growth.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 17, 2009)

TURKEYNECK said:
			
		

> Some folks believe that the rockwool holds too much moisture which would deprive the roots of oxygen but a lot of people do it successfully. Obviously you wouldn't need to flood nearly as often with more rockwool...GL


Hey TN, you're right on with that info. If rockwool is used as the entire media, with the entire root system inside it for the entire grow in an ebb and flow system, it would be much too wet unless that was compensated for with frequent fills using nutrient solution that was extremely well aerated.

It's much easier and results in faster growth to use hydroton with 1.5" starter cubes of rockwool. The root aeration is much better and results in much better over-all growth and less problems.


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## flutefixer (Aug 18, 2009)

I have since  taken Cubby`s suggestion,, I will fill the tray with hydroton and follow stoney buds advice also,I am ok with the cost ,it is the washing of the hydroton I am oposed to!!! (lazy) I am going to build some (removeable)shelves for a 50 gal drum I have with a spicket in the bottom, than I will fill the "shelves" with hydroton, turn the hose on and hopefully it will be easier than the 5 gal bucket I am currently using, does anyone  re use the hydroton,(my laziness is apparant) I think I would rather dispose of the old and use new, once I figure out an easy way to rinse the hydroton,I totally appreciate the advise and encouragement found  here, thanks..


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## stonegroove (Aug 18, 2009)

i take clones in 1.5" rockwool cubes, when the clones are rooted i put them into 4" cubes and leave them to veg, when i put them in flower i fill the tray with hydroton and bury the cubes, my tray holds about 50 litres of hydroton, that costs about £15 and i can use the hydroton 3 times with minimal cleaning in between with no problems


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## StoneyBud (Aug 18, 2009)

stonegroove said:
			
		

> i take clones in 1.5" rockwool cubes, when the clones are rooted i put them into 4" cubes and leave them to veg, when i put them in flower i fill the tray with hydroton and bury the cubes, my tray holds about 50 litres of hydroton, that costs about £15 and i can use the hydroton 3 times with minimal cleaning in between with no problems


Interesting method you have, stonegroove. I use the same grow chambers for both vegetative growth and flowering, so my plants never have to be moved. I just put the 1.5" directly into the hydroton.


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## highman (Aug 19, 2009)

flutefixer said:
			
		

> I have since taken Cubby`s suggestion,, I will fill the tray with hydroton and follow stoney buds advice also,I am ok with the cost ,it is the washing of the hydroton I am oposed to!!! (lazy) I am going to build some (removeable)shelves for a 50 gal drum I have with a spicket in the bottom, than I will fill the "shelves" with hydroton, turn the hose on and hopefully it will be easier than the 5 gal bucket I am currently using, does anyone re use the hydroton,(my laziness is apparant) I think I would rather dispose of the old and use new, once I figure out an easy way to rinse the hydroton,I totally appreciate the advise and encouragement found here, thanks..


 
cleaning hydroton is a never ending process i have 18 2.5 gallon pots and once a week i clean the insides. If hydroton is not for you i would suggest lava rocks. i have had friends use this stuff as apposed to hydroton with great results.


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## Funkfarmer (Aug 19, 2009)

StoneyBud said:
			
		

> It's much easier and results in faster growth to use hydroton with 1.5" starter cubes of rockwool. The root aeration is much better and results in much better over-all growth and less problems.


 

stoneybud, do the roots get sucked into the fittings on the drain cycle? I had my plants in pots with coco and when the roots grew out of the bottom of the pot they got sucked into the fittings, it didnt cause a prob i was just curios about your method.


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## StoneyBud (Aug 19, 2009)

smoky anda bandit said:
			
		

> stoneybud, do the roots get sucked into the fittings on the drain cycle? I had my plants in pots with coco and when the roots grew out of the bottom of the pot they got sucked into the fittings, it didnt cause a prob i was just curios about your method.


Hey smoky, I use oversized fill and drain fittings with 1" inside diameters for that very reason. The few roots that do happen to find their way to the drain don't matter much. In all the crops I've done, I've only had a couple have a minor amount of roots in the drain and never any in the fill line.  The 1" lines also make it so that there is no pressure in either line, ever. It's a simple gravity flow in a partially filled  line.


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## viper1951 (Aug 19, 2009)

if hydroton is to pricey for you. you could alway use  Lava rock from a garden supply center it's cheap it holds a lot of water very porous  and doesn't need to be watered that often.  I would suggest if you chose to,use it is to wash it good to get any dirt out of it.   I have been using it for a long time and I love it and  so do the plants . and it was made in hell . don't get no hotter there! most of all it's cheap  23.00 bucks a cubic yard.  I have 2 complete  ebb and flow systems.  one 24 site and one 12 site.  most of all most garden centers carry it . good luck and enjoy Viper1951


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## StoneyBud (Aug 19, 2009)

viper1951 said:
			
		

> if hydroton is to pricey for you. you could always use Lava rock from a garden supply center it's cheap it holds a lot of water very porous and doesn't need to be watered that often.


Hey viper, you're right as can be. Lava works great! Years ago, when I was first using hydroponic gardening, I used lava rock. It was the best that existed at that time. Man oh Man, was it expensive then! :shocked: 

I don't remember what I paid for it 28 years ago, but I remember thinking I was glad I didn't have to buy it more than once. Kinda like Hydroton now.

Now, it's the least expensive of the two "rock" for hydro.

It does work great too. I think it works just as good as hydroton, but isn't as easy to handle.

I have a big metal tub that I jack up on cinder-block over a propane burner and I fill it with either hydroton or lava when I need to clean and sterilized it. I fill it with water and boil it good. All the junk comes to the top and can be skimmed off and when you're done, it's as clean as it can ever get.

It costs me about $10 to clean the entire batch I have.


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## viper1951 (Aug 20, 2009)

good stuff for sure it really holds the water and nutes  .  I think it does a better job on holding water then hydroton does but thats just my opinion  I know I don't have to water as often.  which means less time the pumps are on. less wear on the pumps   which means cheaper over all costs to grow a crop .Lava rock has so many cavities and is so porous,  sharp  which will cut roots so that they double up  every time a root gets cuts it forms a y and you get 2 new ones  I now have the best root systems I have ever had . no complaints here  good stuff for sure Viper1951


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## StoneyBud (Aug 20, 2009)

The size of the lava rock is very important in regard to how the roots establish themselves. 1/2" to 3/4" is the perfect size. If you get some 3/4" screen (Holes are 3/4" across), and shake your lava rock through it, then you can bust up the larger pieces to get it all down to the best size.

Then just put the smaller pieces on a 1/2" screen and do it again. What falls through is too small and could harm your pump.


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## flutefixer (Aug 20, 2009)

thanks, everyone has been very help full, Iam happy to report, the plants are doing awesome, this may not be the place to ask but..I am having a hard time tryin to get pics posted here ne one feal like some more advice? if not lets keep talkin bout happy plants and my new friend....lave rocks!


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## The New Girl (Aug 20, 2009)

flutefixer said:
			
		

> thanks, everyone has been very help full, Iam happy to report, the plants are doing awesome, this may not be the place to ask but..I am having a hard time tryin to get pics posted here ne one feal like some more advice? if not lets keep talkin bout happy plants and my new friend....lave rocks!


 
If your pics are downloaded to your computer, use a photo program and resize them to no larger than 1200 by 1200 pixels or 488 kb. Use the advanced post option if you don't see the smiley's to the right of your text box and scroll down to where it says "manage attachments." Click there and then browse your folders in the box and upload. When you go to reply or type a message, right below that text box is a tutorial link that says: How to resize and post your pictures.


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