# just cant diagnose this one...anyone?



## saycheese (Feb 14, 2013)

hi i have an issue id like to share with u kind folk

top growth slower fresher and less firm slightly rubberry feeling for a day or two 
, also a bit of bunching and chlorosis of newer growth (from tips)
plus what looks like mag or zinc or possibly potassium deficiency i cant pin it down
main problem is the lime green inter veinal chlorosis which i dont know if it is a lockout due to overfeed or ph or a genuine deficiency
had been slowly increasing dose of vega when i got some tip burn, after this i gave straight water twice 
then started the feeding regime again at a very low strength
it dosent show any worse burning than just tips 
are these normal symptoms to be seeing after a bit of tip burn 
looks very much like iron/mag/zinc problems but not specifically like any one of them
feeding normally now at about 10ml per gal but they still look a bit light, 
still inter vein chlorosis a bit , still not vigourous like they were before burnt tips. foliar feed with v weak molasses definateley showed a slight improvement in the colour but only slight,
also not worsening after a feed of 6ml vega 4ml flores ( i thought it cant hurt to add a little this early just to see if it improves with more p and k in there)
can anyone say if this is normal after a slight overfeed??
by looking at a ph nutrient uptake chart im wildly guessing that my dirt ph could be a bit low and may be locking out things
but i cant say that all the symptoms lead me to one problem/solution, need to do runoff test but i hear the results
arnt always trustworthy if you dont do it just right

i dont trust my 4 quid soil tester it said 6 one time 7 another its clearly only a rough reading if its even accurate
i have put enzymes near enough every feed /water i dont know if using too frequently could have adverse effect

no photo til 8.30pm but i shall get one asap
i have a feeling a more experienced grower might spot an ovious issue ive overlooked, thanks for reading

question time
1. How tall are your plants now? 
1 foot tall ( Lst'd , would probably be near 2 feet if standing 
straight up )
2. How far from the lights are the tops of your plants? Is this a constant distance or have you changed it recently?
about 18 inches ( radiant heat from lamp causes temps above 30 
degrees if closer )
3. How old are they?
7 weeks since germination, currently 7 days since switching to 
12/12
4. What strain are they?
Barneys farm liberty haze
5. Did you start them from seed or clone?
seed ( feminised ) -- nice hard tiger stripe good size and shape 
( one of ten looked bad and one of ten didnt 
germinate so i reckon i know what to look for now in a pip )
6. What type of containers are you using and what size are they in gallons?
11 litre / 3 gal plastic square pots with 8 large holes at bottom, 
lined with newspaper at bottom
8. What mixture of dirt or type of dirt did you use?
1 part pearlite : 2 parts canna terra seed mix : 3 parts canna 
terra pro PLUS : teaspoon dolomite lime 
( yes only a teaspoon ive yet to really use lime when mixing up so 
was over cautious) .... repeat
9. Is it a type that has added nutrients like "Miracle Grow"?
i think seed mix very lightly nuted + inocculated , terra pro plus i 
think not nuted ( i think ive passed the point where it would 
cause an issue )
WHAT TYPE OF LIGHTS DO YOU USE?
400w HPS digital ballast (lumatek ) with 'super lumen' switch 
engaged ( output = to a 500w i think ) ( dual spectrum bulb )
124w grow/blue cfl in reflector
24. What nutrients are you feeding your plants?
i have -- Biocanna line all bio - vega, flores, boost, rhizo + 
biobizz topmax + hygrozyme + blackstrap molasses + bat guano 
( highN and highP )
currently feeding ( per gal) about 10ml vega, 6ml Hygrozyme, 
teaspoon molasses ( molasses not every time )
feed:water:feed:water regime ph'd to 6.5-6.7 with lemon juice 
every feed /watering 

only water or feed when pot is light and i poke the dirt and feel 
the top two inches to make sure its dry

havent seen any wilting OR curling this grow so im happy with my water schedule it used to be awful
also i brew tea with fresh ewc and a tiny pinch guano and tiny bit molasses i give this every few waterings at low dosage less than cup per gal

1. How tall are your plants now? 
1 foot tall ( Lst'd , would probably be near 2 feet if straight 
2. How far from the lights are the tops of your plants? Is this a constant distance or have you changed it recently?
about 18 inches ( radiant heat from lamp causes temps 
above 30 degrees if closer )
3. How old are they?
7 weeks since germination, currently 7 days since switching to 
12/12
4. What strain are they?
Barneys farm liberty haze
5. Did you start them from seed or clone?
seed ( feminised ) -- nice hard tiger stripe good size and shape ( one of ten looked bad and one of ten didnt 
germinate so i reckon i know what to look for now in a pip )
6. What type of containers are you using and what size are they in gallons?
11 litre / 3 gal plastic square pots with 8 large holes at bottom, lined with newspaper at bottom

8. What mixture of dirt or type of dirt did you use?
1 part pearlite : 2 parts canna terra seed mix : 3 parts 
canna terra pro PLUS : teaspoon dolomite lime 
( yes only a teaspoon ive yet to really use lime when 
mixing up so was over cautious) .... repeat
9. Is it a type that has added nutrients like "Miracle Grow"?
i think seed mix very lightly nuted + inocculated , terra pro 
plus i think not nuted ( i think ive passed the point where it 
would cause an issue )
WHAT TYPE OF LIGHTS DO YOU USE?
400w HPS digital ballast (lumatek ) with 'super lumen' 
switch engaged ( output = to a 500w i think ) ( dual 
spectrum bulb )
124w grow/blue cfl in reflector
24. What nutrients are you feeding your plants?
i have -- Biocanna line all bio - vega, flores, boost, rhizo 
+ biobizz topmax + hygrozyme + blackstrap molasses + bat 
guano ( highN and highP )
currently feeding ( per gal) about 10ml vega, 6ml 
Hygrozyme, teaspoon molasses ( molasses not every time )
feed:water:feed:water regime ph'd to 6.5-6.7 with 
lemon juice every feed /watering 

only water or feed when pot is light and i poke the dirt and 
feel the top two inches to make sure its dry

havent seen any wilting OR curling this grow so im happy with my water schedule it used to be awful
also i brew tea with fresh ewc and a tiny pinch guano and tiny bit molasses i give this every few waterings at low dosage less than cup per gal
ENVIRONMENTAL CONDITIONS OF THE GROW AREA

29. Do you use ventilation for your indoor grow?
6" centrifugal extractor ( cannot remember brand, box is gone 
and is encased in crack foam now ) 
31. Do you use a fan?
Yes
32. What type of fan and where is it pointed? What speed?
12" oscillating ( but not oscillating at present ) on low speed 
sometimes medium ( speeds 1-3) pointed between lamp and 
canopy
33. Temperature of the grow area?
28-31 degrees 
34. Humidity of the grow area?
20 % when pots are dry rising to 35% when just watered - 
havent checked peak lights off humidity yet
35. Is CO2 being introduced? What method?
no ( well yes but only 1:4:10 sugar:water:yeast in a plastic 
bottle every few weeks and regular shake 
- effect is probably more psychological than anything i know it 
only marginally raises ppm's and i dont turn the extraction off 
so almost a no )
36. Do you use Odor Control, (carbon, ionizer, ozone gen)?
2 x 4" carbon filter on a tee piece and reducer onto the 6" duct 
and extractor 
( my maths says this is surface area of an 8" filter but not 
sure, i know its not too little filtration )
37. Do you use LST? HST? 
Lst nearly every branch over time, tie down main stem 
around rim if possible sometimes just lean over,
then FIM tops, supercrop any branch that overtakes others in 
hieght too much ( never too much training of any kind in one 
sesh )
What was the establishing technique? (seed or clone?)
seed
How long have they been in the soil mixture they are in now?
3 weeks
What PHASE (seedling, vegetative or flower) are the plants in?
veg but 7 days into 12/12 so beginning the stretch
What Technique are you using? (SOG, SCROG etc)
tied down lots but not quite scrog. squat dense bushes
What order are you mixing your nutrients? (example: veg nutes 1st, bloom 2nd ect)
vega/flores then molass then hygrozyme
What is the TDS/EC/PPM of your nutrients used?
highest measured at 800ppm but usually 700ppm not sure if it 
really matters in organics but i do it anyway makes me feel 
important
What is the pH of the "RUN-OFF"?
i need to do a runoff test ive never done one
What method of pH test was administered? Using Strips? pH 
i use cheap digi pen
How often are you watering?
24/0 every other day now every 3 days
What is the Day/Night Temp? (Include fluctuation range)
18-32 diff 14
What is the current Air Flow? (cfm etc.)
dont know exactly but its adequate i had a lot of 
problems running a smaller extraction so now its a 4" in and a 
6" out for a 1x1x2 tent (metres)
Tell us about your ventilation, intake exhaust and when its running and not running ?
always running
Is the fan blowing directly at plants?
slightly above but plants all wiggling just enough
Is the grow substrate constantly wet or moist?
nope i gotta good wet/dry goin on i had that issue a while ago
Is your water HARD or SOFT?
hard tap water. limescale in the sink etc. ph 8.2 left to evap chlorine
Has plant been recently pruned, cloned or pinched?
stopped all training when switcxhed to 12/12
Have any pest chemicals been used? If so what and when?
nooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Are plant's infected with pest's?
no no biocanna soil anymore lol
Are you growing in a PVC grow tent? (example: Hydrohut or any other non brand tents)
yes tent 1x1x2 i think its called a 'budbox' its white inside


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## pcduck (Feb 14, 2013)

:stoned:


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## mikeydean (Feb 14, 2013)

after all that   here  :48: 

I'm not much help but....eace:


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## Rosebud (Feb 14, 2013)

Got a pic?


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## trillions of atoms (Feb 14, 2013)

lol @ pcduck


please...take the time to take some pics and make a short thread of questions or concerns. Older growers like me arnt going to read through a book to figure out what your really asking. not trying to be a jerk....just really trying to help.


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## saycheese (Feb 14, 2013)

Of course I understand I thought it was a book worth
Of questions but I thought it may help.
Will defo add a picture ASAP 
I think when I've added a pic the info I've given may or may not 
be useful
I don't think anyone's being a jerk at all I lve read a million threads
Full of crap I did think it might be hard going
It is a biiiiiig long post I just thought if I provided all the answers 
It might help

Thanks for even reading I'll add photos ASAP 
And highlight the specific symptoms showing. I was lights
Out when I posted so couldn't do snaPs an it's valentines 
( I'm out with wife as I type drinking a cocktail )

I'm certain somebody here can help if I provide 
Focused info on the problem I know the community
Here is a wealth of knowledge I'm sorry I gave an essay


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## The Hemp Goddess (Feb 14, 2013)

We just don't want to guess  Doing the wrong thing is almost always worse than doing nothing.  I am sure you will get some help as soon as we can see your sick baby.


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## saycheese (Feb 14, 2013)

have attached pics

taken under hps - i can try get better shots but its late 

in the black rings are 3 yellowed / necrotic leaves and 2 others displaying a bit of interveinal chlorosis (i only looped the two clearest but the plants/s they are on are the worst affected ) the chlorosis is all over but pretty mild just a lighter shade between veins pattern like a mag/zinc issue? 

i can also see some small brown necrotic spots on other leaves that have also yellowed in parts randomly not like N def

they dont look too bad to be fair ive seen worse its just this has crept up really slow and i dont like the very slight bunching/twisting of tops either -- last ones i grew that did that (GH WR ) were awful

it seems like a mild issue but one that could continue especially if its soil ph going up or down

thanks all


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 14, 2013)

A couple things here. It has been my experience that when you seem to have several problems at one time, that means you have a bad PH level. The reason is that if the PH is off, it can lock out several different nutrients and that will cause deficiency symptoms. Also if the PH is off in the soil and you keep adding nutrients, the problem switches to soil toxicity, which in my experience causes lots of small, random, necrotic spots to form on the leaves. Calcium deficiency looks very similar but has a telltale symptom of proportional distribution of necrotic spots on the serrated points of the leaves.

Its hard to tell very well but it does appear that they are showing a magnesium deficiency as well.

The couple of very necrotic leaves may actually be false symptoms. Often as the plants grow, the oldest and lowest leaves get used up and recycled, which makes them look very symptomatic before they die off. I would ignore those leaves and look to the broader symptoms. Which brings us back to PH.

I see you have hard water and a PH of 8.2. That is very high PH for tap water. Do you use anything to adjust the PH into the proper zone after adding nutrients? Have you had your water tested to see what's in it? That is my first suspect in this problem. If the water has too high of some chemical in it, it could be locking up other chemicals and causing the PH to remain way off. But if you aren't adjusting the PH down to around 6.4-6.8 than that is your problem. However, I think if your PH has been off then you should have started having symptoms sooner. 

It seems most likely to me that the water is causing a buildup of some element that is toxifying your soil over time. That may be the actual source of the earlier nute burn symptom(leaf tip burn is a typical symptom of overnute). Then flushing it would only add to the problem by adding more of whats in the water.

You can check the soil PH by checking the run off with a digital pen. This isn't the most reliable way to determine the soil PH. What I do is take clean water and check the PH and if it isn't at 7, I adjust it to 7 and allow to sit and stabilize for several hours to be sure it stays at 7. Then water plant until I get enough runoff to fill a cup with about 50ml. Then I check PH and compare it to the PH going in(which is 7). 

If the runoff comes out at 6.5 then I know the soil is actually lower than 6.5 because it had to bring the adjusted water down to 6.5. If the runoff is at 7.5 then I know the soil is higher than 7.5 for the same reason. Unfortunately I can tell how much higher or lower it is because there are too many variables that affect the way the PH would change. A chemist could probably give a good idea. 

See if you can get your water tested for all of the possible mineral content. If you can't then get the TDS of the tap water. I can't remember but I think if your water is over 300ppm on a TDS meter then you have problem amounts of mineral or heavy metals present and will need to find a new water source or get an RO type of filter to remove the heavies.


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## saycheese (Feb 15, 2013)

Thanks hush puppy much appreciated

I'll dig some reports on the local water I've read some before but
Didn't look at the calcium levels etc or what the acceptable levels
Are for growing just looked for chloramines on the list

If I use lemon juice with potassium metabisulphite in it as ph down could this be a problem

The lower ones may just be badly lit and so dropping 

I am suspicious of a low soil ph
I would like to top dress with guanokalong powder soon ( has calcium)
And dolomite lime but worry that the hardness in the water might affect levels of calcium badly 

Should I top dress with lime? Afaik it shouldn't hurt to add tablespoon per gal and scratch into top of soil. I was thinking this could be the fix,and was gona try it simply cos I don't think it will hurt even of it isn't the solution, 
I don't think it's high soil ph, anyone else think its worth a shot

I know if it's a calcium overdose that my guano with cal won't be well received

Tap is 300 ppm (or 420 ppm on a blue lab truncheon it says the lower ppm is x500 the higher x700) i just checked it and it's been standing for 48hrs, I don't know if the chlorine is measured in the ppm reading but I know it gets even higher tds higher if the water evaps

Is 300ppm very bad?


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## saycheese (Feb 15, 2013)

Will my plants needs for calcium ( which I suspect could be the issue in the water) as they begin flowering rise, enough to help 'eat' more cal from the water?


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 15, 2013)

Above 300ppm is definitely concerning. Since you get lime buildup on plumbing surfaces I am willing to assume that the high ppm is from calcium in the water. I would be afraid to do anything until determining what and how much is in your water. 

I don't know about the lemon juice for lowering PH. I have heard others say that food stuffs for adjusting PH doesn't work very well and isn't very reliable for maintaining PH levels. I would look into buying some organic friendly PH adjuster. The bad thing about using different chemicals for PH adjustment is that unless you know chemistry very well (I don't), you can't be sure that the chemicals you are using aren't conflicting with other important chemicals in the soil.That is why I prefer to buy my PH adjusters premade.

Why would you be thinking that you have low PH? You said your water has very high PH (lime and calcium raise PH). What is the PH of your water after you mix in everything, before pouring onto plants. If the PH is very high originally and you are having to lower it manually, then the only reason it would be too low would be if you are making it too low. I suspect that if others are right about food stuff adjusters not being reliable, then when you adjust the PH down, it fails to stay down and slowly rises back up to lock out the needed elements.

I wouldn't add anything until finding out about the soil PH and water impurities.


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## saycheese (Feb 15, 2013)

Great thanks HP I'm looking at water report. I'm gona post it it's got caco3 on it.
I'm not sure how to use the info it's very detailed and doesn't say for example 'chloramine' I think u are right about the unstable ph down I have noticed it to rise from 6.5 up to 6.7 in about 2 hours whilst standing after ph'ing down with lemon juice

Can you recommend any particular brand of organic ph down?

I don't think I've been going too low, lowest I've adjusted to is 6.4 usually 6.6 ( no real reason for this tbh)

I think there's peat in the terra pro plus I hear it's very acidic I had been wondering if this isn't maybe saving the grow from the high ph water
 (your angle makes the most perfect sense as a theory, I thought maybe low ph but the facts as presented are much more likely to signal high ph as you have highlighted )

If its excess cal is there a scientific way, any safe way to lock the cal away from the plant? ( I'm guessing no just reverse osmosis )
Can I mix say half tap and half Brita filtered water to lower ppms calcium?

Water report to follow


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## 7greeneyes (Feb 15, 2013)

I buy ph up and ph down at the local hydro shop. It's pretty cheap and more stable then lemon juice or vinegar or what have you....


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 15, 2013)

I haven't been able to find any organic PH adjusters but I would think they are out there. I actually use Technaflora's PH adjusters in my organic setup to make sure my stuff stayed below 7.0 and I had no problems using it.

I don't think the standard filters will remove much of the disolved minerals or heavy metals from the water. You may have to look into a combination of RO filtering, bottled water, and captured rain water. However, even rainwater needs to be tested before using as it can have some pretty nasty stuff in it if you are in an area of stronger air polution. Coal fired electricity plants are notorious for causing "acid rain" which can be deadly to plants.


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## saycheese (Feb 15, 2013)

cant seem to print screen or find a pic of the water report to attach but i think this is the relevant info

mgl CaCO3 (ppm)___Degrees-Clarke___German(DH)______ Detergentrating       
  288.0  __________20.16 ____________ 16.128 ___________ HARD                 

Fluoride(ppm) 
0.131875

CaCo3 ranges from 285-291 across the area  288 is the mean

i had a friend grow without ph adjusting in my street and his plants didnt look bad at all nice n green hes very close to me so same water
he didnt ever stand the water ( he used biobizz grow/bloom/topmax though and i use biocanna ) he was growing buddha cheese and buddha haze
based on this id say the chlorine/other nasties levels will be ok, i stand mine

maybe my liberty haze is a tricky babe i did read that chemdawg91 and g13 are both not for novice growers and this barneys lib is a cross of the two, i feel lucky to only have 3 distinct phenos in batch of 10 i shall dance the dance if its anythimg like the bit from amnesia coffeshop

( have learned so much about biology and chemistry this grow - i love to learn )

im going to check what a brita filter actually removes and in what amounts,
well actually its an 'aqua optima' we budgeting lol

is food grade citric acid powder no good?  i read that its what a lot of organic ph downs are made of so i assume more stable than concentrate lemon juice but at this point i think im just guna ebay some branded organic phdown it cant be more than 15quid and i didnt get them a valentines gift yet

thanks


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 16, 2013)

I believe that the CaCO3 is Calcium carbonate. That will give you some problem but being in organic(if your microbe herd is good) should help to break that down. I would be willing to bet that the CaCO3 is causing the PH to drive up as it breaks down in the soil, and the lemon juice isn't strong enough to keep from being broken down itself. 

I would say that Nitric acid or Phospheric acid is what you need and should work ok within the organic setup. The problem with food grade acids is that they are compounds that can break down more easily and become neutralized. I think you can overcome the calcium in the water and even use it to your advantage by adding (no lime) but either greensand or epsome salt to the soil mix. I believe this will ballance out the magnesium/calcium content in the soil. And by keeping the PH in check (6.5-6.9)


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 16, 2013)

using water with ppms that high is bad for organic soil. i strongly suggest making an investment in a RO system.

this one is completely worth the investment >>> hxxp://www.ehydroponics.com/hydrologic-stealth-ro-100-100-gpd-system.html

what kind of soil are you using? did you build it yourself or is it potting mix with amendments?


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## trillions of atoms (Feb 16, 2013)

woah woah woah,,,


i see the light bleaching out the plants in most of the outlines....


the one outline you can not tell whats going on....but by telling us that you use lemon juice for PH......tells me its a PH problem anyway.


PLEASE Ph your water before you feed.....no ** test strips...get a PH meter from ebay, they are under 20 bux. and a PH kit is another 20......


dont use lemon juice, or any other household ingredient to PH you nutes/water or soil.....


keep it around 6.3-6.8 you want it to flutter between the low and high number...a little out of that range is fine , as long as you keep it around in the range.

your plants need to feed at dif PH levels, so it going up and down is normal....


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 16, 2013)

im personally against using ph up and down in an organic grow. a properly balanced soil with a strong herd will always ph itself properly(using a pure water source). i've yet to find a definitive answer as to whether or not ph up/down kills your microbes. until i find one, ph up/down stays out of my organic garden.


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## saycheese (Feb 16, 2013)

I didn't think my light could even cause any bleaching it's a 400w at 18 inches away and hasn't been closer than a foot, I've never had any bleaching before, i thougt they would burn from the radiant heat before light bleaching ?? Of course I'm not certain that it can't happen. 

I'm goin to look up greensand/ Epsom salts and see
Can anyone explain how adding the Epsom salts ( more cal yes? ) can help
Is it a different form of cal? Is the cal mag ratio more important than the actual amounts?

I'm aware of the ph fluctuation and how it can be beneficial , so untill I get some real organic ph down, could I ph down with the unstable lemon juice to a much lower value ? To ensure the ph swings through the range for enough time to allow healthy uptake?

Thanks all


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 16, 2013)

saycheese said:
			
		

> I didn't think my light could even cause any bleaching it's a 400w at 18 inches away and hasn't been closer than a foot, I've never had any bleaching before, i thougt they would burn from the radiant heat before light bleaching ?? Of course I'm not certain that it can't happen.
> 
> I'm goin to look up greensand/ Epsom salts and see
> Can anyone explain how adding the Epsom salts ( more cal yes? ) can help
> ...



this grow is 100% organic right? organic ph up/down will not fix your problem b/c it breaks down too fast. you need to identify the reason why your soil's ph is off and fix it.

imo you have 2 real choices here. the high amount of dissolved solids in your water is causing your soil ph to become far to alkaline. the high amount of calcium is is creating a salt build up around the root zone, increasing the ph and locking out multiple nutrients at once. salt build up will also choke the roots of its much needed oxygen.

option 1 - adjust your soil to accommodate the unusually high amount of calcium in the water. the dowunside being, you will constantly have to re-adjust in the future due to the fact that the city's water ppms will fluctuate with the seasons.

option 2 - buy a RO filter system

either way you need to flush your soil of all the excess salts, otherwise the problem will continually get worse.


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 16, 2013)

Saycheese hello i love your name   
I say cheese every morning to my ladies in the greenhouse.

For me i bubble my tap water which is also Ph8.3 for 18-24hrs !
This aids any impurities to dissolve faster.. and assists in quicker breeding for my microbe herd when the mollasses and microbes are added !

Personally i do use lemon juice concentrate as ph down and it has never been an issue with feeding or using alone in tap water !
You will find that 7mls per liter of water will put you at Ph6.5  

Its a food product and blahblahblah but it works for me and its the only thing i have used for a few grows   !
You also mention that you have just flipped about 2 weeks ago and the stretch has begun so your plant will require good amounts of Phospherous and nitrogen along with all the macro nutes as well .
The flip is a stressful time your plant has become a woman overnight kinda thing !
I'm kinda thinking that your leaves look very similiar to mine a few weeks ago and your problem may well be a phospherous deficiency !
You also have mentioned cheap ph tester i would test your Ph meter against a local garden centre meter to ensure that your meter is up to standard as well .
I say this because my $35 millwaukee dropped the ball and certainly did'nt help when my problems started !

Anyway i can also say that you are in extremely good hands here at MP 
Don't make any drastic decisions without getting some help here .
Some people can do crazy things like LOVE EM TO DEATH ! 
Don't do that  

Peace and Gods Speed !:bolt:


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## saycheese (Feb 16, 2013)

Two high crimes thanks, I've found aerating the water raises the ph but I admit I haven't aerated then sat it for 24hrs afterward to see if the ph returns to what it was

I'm seriously considering a DIY Ro machine or perhaps second hand and buy new filters I saw people getting em quite cheap

Lol the name came from my love of said strain but I hate it now cos nobody seems to grow it without tiny early seeds and never get any organic bits. I can honestly say my first cheese grow was better cheese than any I ever had and I mean even in holland so bat pooey so pickled and tangy smelling and clean .
(thanks to advice from MP) Now Im I'm love with the liberty haze but I've learnt all the relevant stuff about phenotypes quite recently after buying  so I hope I got a pheno that's close to the dam cut that won some award or other but I actually doubt it. It'll be nice im sure -but it might not be what I was expecting wen I purchased the pips

I'm going to water my plants at lights on today ( hour after to be precise )
If the lemon is less stable as a ph adjuster

Should I ph my water low, say ph 6.2 ?

Theory being that the root environment will be within target ph range for a longer period of time if the starting ph is lower


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## trillions of atoms (Feb 16, 2013)

yeah if its organic, use dolomite lime....it will buffer the PH naturally.


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## saycheese (Feb 16, 2013)

Would 200ppm calcium be acceptable ( if I use a 50/50 mix of tap/filtered)

My domestic water filter jug leaves mag and potassium alone but takes 80% chlorine and 80% calcium carbonate away 

water is 150ppm after filtering haven't ph'd it yet but educate guess says it could be a little bit bit lower than the original 8.2


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## saycheese (Feb 16, 2013)

Would 200ppm calcium be acceptable ( if I use a 50/50 mix of tap/filtered)

My domestic water filter jug leaves mag and potassium alone but takes 80% chlorine and 80% calcium carbonate away 

water is 150ppm after filtering haven't ph'd it yet but educate guess says it could be a little bit bit lower than the original 8.2


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 16, 2013)

I don't know this for fact but I believe that small doses of PH adjuster should be fine. I would bet that *high amounts *of Nitric acid (which is for PH dn)would wipe out the fungal microbes but the bacteria would probably be fine as they perfer the lower PH. And then the PH up(potassium Hydroxide) would probably wipe out the bacteria and not hurt the fungals. I may have that backwards, I can't remember off the top of my head :stoned: But using it in small amounts, mixed into water first should not cause any problems as it is diluted.

I would agree that for organic setups in which the microbe herd is well established, you shouldn't need to ever adjust PH. However, if your source water is waay off for whatever reason then to eliminate any problems occuring, adjusting the source water to get it in range would be a must, and shouldn't be an issue. The reason I say this is that in my limited organic growing experience, I had to adjust my source water even after adding nutes. But I never had any problems with my organics, and my soil PH stayed at 6.8 constantly (when measured, it probably had plenty of micro fluxuations)


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## saycheese (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks all I've filtered my water tonight and it's 200ppm maybe just under and the ph is 6.6 

Now I'm only wondering- is just the lack of the calcium carbonate that makes the ph lower ? 

Its just water this time but if I'm filtering using this method I will have issue when mixing the same 10ml of nutes per gal ive worked up to, as the ph would surely go too low (10ml vega in gal takes 8.2 down to 7.0 I think logarithmic means it would take far less nutes to take the ph down from 6.6 out of acceptable range)

The same way lemon juice is unstable , is aerating to get the ph to go up a stable process, will the dissolved oxygen be gone really quick leaving the ph lower? Is aerating the answer to raising nutrient  ph at all?


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 16, 2013)

If you have high calcium in the water and the PH is high, you don't want to add any lime at this point. You need to get the PH and calcium down some. If your filter cets out that much calcium then it might be good enough. Dropping it to 150ppm may do what you need. Check the PH on it after mixing/aerating and see where its at. If it is still above 7.0 then use the lemon juice and drop it lower like you said, about 6.3 and see how they do with it.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 16, 2013)

Just saw your response. I say filter the water and then mix in your nutes and aerate it for 24hrs and then see where the PH is and do any adjusting from there. Don't adjust the PH until after the nute solution has aerated. I think the PH stays stable after aerating because of the hydrogen, nitrogen, and other elements in the air form chemical bonds that only break down under the chelating process. If the areating brings your PH into the range you need after all the nutes have been added then go with that


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## saycheese (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks that's great info -- 

I did a runoff testof sorts, I collected some runoff from all plants (watered all over same tray), I watered it in at ph6.6 which was the filtered water with dash of hygrozyme no ph adjustment, it came out at ph 7.1 so could I hazard a guess that the soil is between 7 and 8 likely closer to 8.0?

Also lots of sodium in water ( highest 159ppm mean level is 50ppm hope I'm on the lower end) and no mention of mg at all on the water 

Am I likely to need Epsom salts or should the biocanna nutes provide enough mag once the ph of the soul is correct? Should be good to have as a foliar for emergency ( I foliared some molasses and certainly saw a difference so if mag is locked out of the roots I can spray it for a quick fix  )

I think with everyones help ive pinned the issue down to excess cal carbonate building up causing high ph lockout of mag (and others) plus locked out nutes building up to cause secondary problems (purple stem, micronutrient defs )

I've always grown in roughly the same area geographically but in 4 different houses and this water must be just that bit harder cos my other grows didn't show any necrosis just an early yellowing and a bit of the claw


Does anyone know if more frequent applications of bacterial tea would be beneficial in balancing out the cal etc in the soil will the bacteria break it down?


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 16, 2013)

OK that sounds good. We are getting to the root of the problem now. I would give an educated guess that your actual soil PH is about 7.6, given the 6.6 water and 7.1 runoff. 

The excess sodium is probably a buildup of idle mineral salt from the nutrients like Shortbus said earlier. I think you will need either epsom salt or greensand for the magnesium(I doubt the Biocanna will have enough magnesium as most nute brands don't include much magnesium). You will not need anything with calcium as the water has it(even though you will filter it, not all of the calcium will be removed).

Having a good microbe herd is very important and I don't know if you can over-do the addition of microbes. When I had my organic auto-watering system going, I kept brewing nute tea with microbes and mollasses to feed them and steadily fed it to my plant. It did very good and produced about 150-170g off one plant.

I would say that what you need to do at this point is get some bottled water from somewhere so that it has very low TDS and use about 3x as much water as the volume of the planters to flush the soil. This will remove the buildup of toxic nutrients that have got out of ballance. After that, you can make up some nute/microbe tea with the filtered water, and let that aerate for about 48hrs before adding some to the plants. Don't worry about over watering them because by aerating your water, you are adding plenty of oxygen for the roots. 

Just don't give them a lot of nuted water straight away as they probably will still be a bit wet. You can even wait for them to dry out a bit before adding back the nute tea.

I just looked up Epsom salt and I think that would be your best option at the moment as it is Magnesium Sulfate, which is PH neutral and absorbs easily. After you flush and get them stabilized, then top dress the soil with a couple tablespoons(about 30grams) of epsom salt before you water them with the nute tea so that it gets disolved into the soil. I'm not sure how much it will take of the epsom salt so you will have to watch them and possibly add more as you go.


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 16, 2013)

cheese, would you mind giving me a run down of the soil you're using + all the amendment/additives your using?

hush - fungi like low ph bacteria like high ph


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## saycheese (Feb 17, 2013)

thanks hp i wrote epsom on my shopping list this morn already so ill grab that asap my mate told me its cheap n easy to find his mum has it for whatever its used for i didnt ask

i picked up some fresh ewc ( im next to a wooded area, ewc collected from patch of grass next to wooded area ) but didnt start to brew it yet ill get that bubbling today should be 48-72 hrs before the plants need water/feed, i was researching fungal ingredients for tea and plan to grab some oat flour to culture some fungus

shall i go ahead with this mix? -large teaspoon fresh ewc/small pinch high N bat guano powder/small bit molasses  ive been using this im sure its bacterial especially with molass and after 48hrs

shortbus - 
i put the seeds into root riot cubes, germed and planted into 85:15 ratio canna terra seed mix: pearlite nothing else,

repotted into final containers mix was 2:3:1:teaspoon
seedmix:canna terra pro plus: pearlite:dolo lime

the terra pro plus was old, sat in a bag for 3 years (indoors, no pests etc, low humidity area) dont know if that affects it

short do you think then that ill have trouble trying to establish a fungal colony in time to assist the p uptake ? i read that inocculation with funghi is best done early in the game, im hoping to give lots fungal tea in flower and one of the biocanna bottles promotes fungal colony i think the boost, i have only brewed bacterial thus far. i mixed oats and ewc but the resulting muck 3 days later smelled of feet and had no beard

new growth (10 hours since watering ) looking darker like its getting more N and more lush but still tips a little light yellow/white so must be loads of accumulated fert im guessing the 6.6 ph hasnt swung so fast and is allowing better uptake, not much change on the old growth still light green chlorosis and yellowing bottom third of plant ( i plan to put a second 400w when flowering has started in full so should be less natural lower yellowing due to better light penetration )

i am a little concerned that apart from an extra inch in hieght im not seeing any real budsites beginning to form yet, this also makes me think high accumulated N, i went from 24/0 to 12/12 which i thought would really jumpstart flowering as they had never experienced dark, i have always waited for preflowers and then seen the switch happen over course of a week or so,
its a longer strain im expecting 12 weeks + even tho barneys reckon 9weeks
ill be more worried if they dont start flower in a week or two from now

my plan is to brew a good tea ready for when the pots are near dry, use about 15 litres of distilled water ph'd to 6.4, first water 10 litres plain to runoff, then half hour later top dress 20-30g epsom salt then water the usual 5 litres with nice amount of bacterial tea and some hygrozyme

sound a good plan?


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 17, 2013)

Shortbus i found this info 
8. What mixture of dirt or type of dirt did you use?
1 part pearlite : 2 parts canna terra seed mix : 3 parts 
canna terra pro PLUS : teaspoon dolomite lime 
( yes only a teaspoon ive yet to really use lime when 
mixing up so was over cautious)
The Details regarding Canna terra pro plus are as follows ..
CANNA Terra Professional Plus is designed to work and interact with CANNA TERRA nutrients. It is a peat-based potting soil made from high quality ingredients. It is composed of several fractions, from coarse to fine, which provide nutrient storage and allow for proper porosity. The added (partially decomposed) bark has antiseptic and aeration qualities. These combined ingredients avoid the use of perlite and provide for good fertility and excellent drainage. They also promote exceptional root development and the formation of thicker stems, while a faster metabolism combined with low sickness rates ensures an increased production.
The medium is pH-adjusted for long-term control with a lime charge large enough to last an entire cycle.
The availability of Terra Professional Plus completes the CANNA TERRA range, as:
It has a mineral-nutrient starter charge that adjusts the initial level of nutrients up to a good beginning charge, correcting the ratios to work perfectly with CANNA TERRA nutrients.
It has a larger pH charge than common North-American bulk-grade soilless mixes to get the best result when combined with CANNA TERRA nutrients.
24. What nutrients are you feeding your plants?
i have -- Biocanna line all bio - vega, flores, boost, rhizo 
+ biobizz topmax + hygrozyme + blackstrap molasses + bat 
guano ( highN and highP )
currently feeding ( per gal) about 10ml vega, 6ml 
Hygrozyme, teaspoon molasses ( molasses not every time )
feed:water:feed:water regime ph'd to 6.5-6.7 with 
lemon juice every feed /watering
Hygrozyme is an organic enzyme solution designed to maximize the health of the roots. The enzymes are formulated to decompose dead organic matter. This helps the plant by cleaning away any dead or rotting root matter, which stimulates clean, healthy, vigorous new root growth. It also helps the roots to break down the nutrients in the solution to better absorb them. Not necessary for growing, but I consider it a secret weapon. It's like a natural, organic plant steroid (Organic Materials Research Institute -OMRI- approved!)

BioVega has been developed especially for the plants' growth phase. BioVega is rich in highly absorbable betaine nitrogen that is released according to the plant's needs. The bioactive substances in BioVega stimulate the root development and the formation of strong growth shoots. This allows even the fastest growing plants to optimally start their blooming period.
BioFlores was developed for the blooming phase of fast growing plants. BioFlores contains a hops extract. Due to the fact that BioFlores contains a hops extract it provides many of the necessary minerals and in the correct proportions. In addition to these minerals, hops extract also contains cannabinoid-like substances such as lupuline  , luparol, lupulon   and humulon  , which provide the plant with extra blooming power
After years of field studies, in the primary rainforests of South Asia, Africa and Middle America, among other places, and research in CannaResearch's laboratories, CANNA is very proud to introduce BioBOOST! 
BioBOOST is a yield increasing agent for all cultivation systems and can be applied in combination with all CANNA's nutritional lines and additives. BioBOOST is not a nutrient but a natural fermented plant extract with bloom stimulating characteristics that are also responsible for a fuller flavour 
BioBOOST was developed by CannaResearch from plant extracts from tropical rainforests and is a true boost for plants. The bioactive substances result in an extra metabolism that is exactly what the plant needs during the blooming period. The plants produce more fructose, become healthier and stronger and are less vulnerable to diseases and plagues. The result is a higher yield with a strong, exuberant and vital fructification. 
The number of bio-active substances in BioBOOST is enormous
And here's the link to the site hxxp://www.biocanna.com.au/site/products.php?showpage=products_overview

currently feeding ( per gal) about 10ml vega, 6ml 
Hygrozyme, teaspoon molasses ( molasses not every time )
 feed:water:feed:water regime ph'd to 6.5-6.7 with 
lemon juice every feed /watering
Imma still go with phos deficiency keep the bat guano handy !
I would also recommend adding epsom salts at 1 TBLSP per gallon dissolved with warm water as most nutes are short on mag .
All the best and good luck ! You are at the right place should be fixed up soon !


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 17, 2013)

saycheese said:
			
		

> thanks hp i wrote epsom on my shopping list this morn already so ill grab that asap my mate told me its cheap n easy to find his mum has it for whatever its used for i didnt ask
> 
> i picked up some fresh ewc ( im next to a wooded area, ewc collected from patch of grass next to wooded area ) but didnt start to brew it yet ill get that bubbling today should be 48-72 hrs before the plants need water/feed, i was researching fungal ingredients for tea and plan to grab some oat flour to culture some fungus
> 
> ...



i think you should have no problem building a new herd before flowering sets in. i would flush your soil thoroughly to remove the excess salt build up. brew a tea. the tea recipe you mentioned above will do just fine. i would suggest adding more earthworm castings though. ewc is full of micro life that your soil will need. i would also suggest removing the top few inches of the soil in your pots, and fill it back in with a 75/25 mix of castings & perlite, with 1/2-1 teaspoon of high N guano(guano is strong stuff, you dont need much). the castings will explode with microbes from all the available N. so when you water/feed your plants the microbes will hitch a ride down to the rest of the soil.


if your going to ph your tea. add the lemon juice and airate for 24 hrs before adding any microlife. not saying the lemon juice WILL kill the micro life, but it definitely CAN.

:48:


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## saycheese (Feb 17, 2013)

whoops i have to admit something- my cfl was still on 24/0 and only my hps was on 12/12 

no wonder they havent started to flower - the stretching was just due to lack of light for 12 hours a day ( only an old 125w grow/blue cfl on a metre square) 
luckily they only climbed inch or two theres me thinkin that they started to flower, fingers crossed they dont stretch too much now

its only been 10 days so ive sorted that now and they should flower now its proper 12/12
( i only had my cfl pugged into my fan speed controller, what a blunder, i had noticed some of the U tubes in the cfl going dim i thought it was on its way out lol )

i think the lower leaves yelowing could just be to do with that, i doubt that cfl alone could sustain green growth all over, my plants are quite dense more so than previous efforts

i dont ph the tea itself,  i brew a small amount maybe 750ml in a litre bottle with an airstone and add 1cup to a gal, then ph whole nute mix
i have put tea in the water or feedings once a week or so
with the filtered water it will be a much smaller amount of lemon juice, drips not squirts so im not worried about killing anything now

is there a certain ph range in the tea that means a tea is good/brewed correctly?

 ill proceed with my above plan but dissolve the epsom salts in the mix and instead top dress with the suggested ewc/pearlite/guano mix, i got tiny bag high n guano powder left and i have litre or two of terra plus left to mix with it as well, the roots are going to show soon so a new top layer will be good, the soil is getting compacted

 i only collected a small lump of ewc i probably need 100 times more than this, i have a worm farm but still looks a bit like compost heap and newspaper its less than two months old and a pretty shotgun affair just aa bucket, shredded newspaper small amount of woodland soil and some food waste now and then but i can see it slowly becoming what i need, just taking their sweet time with it

im itching to proceed with a good flush,top dress, tea and epsom but after the 7 litre drench yesterday ill probably have to wait about 4-5 days  

thanks again


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 17, 2013)

Thanks Shortbus, I thought I had that backwards but couldn't remember. 

Wow, that is a lot of information to digest. From the description of the Canna stuff, you shouldn't need much else when starting off with their soil and product line. I suspect(and I am speculating a bit) the root problem is with the extra calcium in the water which kept the PH thrown off in the soil, and that prevented the microbes from correcting the PH. 

Now that you have the water issue corrected, it'll just be a matter of flushing the salts out and getting it back to level. I wouldn't flush real heavy though as there probably isn't a terrible amount of buildup, and it should only take a mild rinsing to clear it out.

I'm not suprised that they haven't started flowering yet, with the chemistry being whacked out, the plants have probably gone into a bit of stasis. Once the chemistry is corrected they will come out of stasis and take off with their normal cycle again. If you are seeing changes already then they are already bouncing back. MJ is a very resilient and tenacious plant and given any chance to survive, it will.


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 17, 2013)

If your tea is brewing well, you will see the PH jump one direction or the other as the microbes begin to flourish. The direction it jumps will depend on which microbes take off first. Yeah, I wouldn't PH the microbe tea either, I think you are doing that correctly.

About the lighting and flowering, it's a lucky mistake for you, I think, as having them not being encouraged to change to flowering while having this problem is one less stress on the plants. Having all of the health stress combined with the stress of trying to begin flowering could have (possibly)caused herming to occur before the end of flowering. By having the light on kept them in veg (even though they stretched a bit), and that should have eliminated that as a stressor at a bad time.

You say you gave them a 7liter drench yesterday, why? what was in the drench? if nothing but water then you may not have to flush at this point.


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## saycheese (Feb 17, 2013)

HP
i gave them 7 litres of water with 1ml per litre of hygrozyme.

by drench i meant just really wet with slight runoff.
wouldnt call it a flush - the runoff amounted to 200ml or less i poured it from tray to measuring jug to test the ph

tips on new growth a bit pale still even though new growth in general looks darker and healthier, only like a millimetre of tip at most is affected, is this nute burn? when its on tips of newest growth. its more white/beige looking

ive put the lights to 12/12 now so ive committed, hope it dosent backfire
ive read up on the genetics but couldnt find a definative answer on whether this liberty haze is an easy or hard plant to grow ( compared to buddha cheese which seems to handle a lot )

considering ive just given straight water, next time i water should i still flush properly, or just a normal amount plain water with a little runoff?


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 17, 2013)

Most organic tea growers never worry about the PH of the teas.
But i do adjust it every 8-10hrs to suit the beneficials as these microbes prefer  Ph6.0-7.5 in nature and one tends to think that any beneficials outside these ideals could also contain bad bacteria that may also prefer acidic or alkaline avenues so for me i keep it around neutral.  You will get crazy readings and such. In organics the root system has a protective layer... It protects it from the PH swings as the microbial life breaks the tea down to usuable food source for the plant. People that are new to organics have the hardest time wrapping there head around one thing. "You are feeding the soil NOT the plant" the plant is the byproduct of maintaining the soil.
Water temperature &#8211; higher temperatures increase the rate of multiplication of bacteria and growth of fungi, which can speed up the brewing process. At the same time, warmer water holds less oxygen. Water that is too warm therefore, can cause the available (dissolved) oxygen to be used up too fast, which will cause an anaerobic condition. (Anaerobic conditions result in the production of plant toxic compounds.)
Water quality - the optimal range of pH for compost tea production is between 6.5 and 7.5. Also, water treated with chlorine or chloramines should be de-chlorinated before use in the brewer. The amount and types of microbial foods added to the brewer &#8211; if too much nutrient, especially nutrients high in sucrose ( molasses)  added to the brewer, microbial growth will outstrip the supply of oxygen, again causing an anaerobic condition in the compost tea. If too little nutrient is added, a &#8216;weak&#8217; compost tea will be the result.
Yet i use a larger airpump to ensure that the tea is almost bubbling out of my bucket and ensure maximum oxygen at all times ! 
Brewing time &#8211; there is an optimum time period for brewing compost/worm tea. Too short a brew time will result in a weak tea containing unused microbial foods. Too long a brewing time will usually result in a loss of bacterial and fungal biomass, a loss in nematodes and frequently an increase in protozoa (protozoa feed on the bacteria and fungi yet still are a postive influence in my opinion ) i like to bubble teas for around 18-24hrs with ideal conditions i.e airation and water temps .
With all that said i guess you could strip down all of the information gathered get your lighting on track give them a light flush as Hushpuppy stated and you should be on the road to redemption !
All the best THC .
Here's a pic of your grow chart so we can see whats going on !
Click on pic to enlarge it


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 17, 2013)

I would definitely still flush them as what you did probably didn't remove all of the buildup. I wouldn't have switched them just yet, maybe about 5 more days of healing first. However, I think you will be OK on the switch to flowering as they are on the up side of the problem now.


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## saycheese (Feb 17, 2013)

Thankyou for all your advice, 

I've collected a load of ewc for the top dressing

I'll let you know how it goes


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## saycheese (Feb 17, 2013)

And thanks for the chart thc, I've never seen that one, I'm always picking the canna leaflet up in the grow store, but that wasn't on it


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## saycheese (Feb 19, 2013)

I have a quick one but tough, I could only find extremeley limited info on google most of it fish tank related, 

I know the ph of my aerated water goes up partly due to co2 being forced out so theirs less carbonic acid

Am I right in thinking that (along with filtering out the cal carbonate ) By airating and forcing unwanted gases out of the water,  I'm decreasing the waters buffering capacity so even though it's high ph it *should* in (my) theory, take less citric acid to lower?

Will aerated water be more stable when ph'd, due to less of the acid being 'bonded' into compounds by unwanteds in the water like CaC03?

I understand buffering capacity to be this reaction of the alkali bonding with/ neutralising the acid I think I've understood this right

I need to sharpen up on my terminology molecules/atoms/anions/cations Im slowly becoming familiar with these terms, when the Plants are back on track I shall research this topic I think I'd be able to answer most of my own questions if I understood those words and their correct meaning

I am a little worried that with the ph back up at previous levels after filtering/aeration i might still suffer a ph swing in the nutrient mix

If this was the case I'd ph down lower, expecting it to swing, but if the water WAS more stable after filtering/aeration I'd aim right for the ph I want , about 6.5 expecting less of a swing 

My Plants are losing the white tips slowly and are stretching ( for real this time!!) they have dried out much faster than expected so I don't have time to test the above theory before the water is needed ( and it's confusing me so much)

Thanks people- definately recovering I can't wai to Post some healthy pics ( under normal daylight as well)


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 19, 2013)

Don't worry too much about the scientific particulars of PH right now. It is definitely a plus for you to know and understand it but most of the work on the PH is going to be done by the microbes, and you will definitely see a lot of swing if you monitor it closely. But that isn't necessary once you get it straight. If you flush them with bottled water, (it should be about neutral 7.0) then the higher PH issue in the soil should get corrected.

I have noticed that aerating does raise the PH and it will stay stable at that point if left alone. After flushing the soil, the PH in the soil should end up being close to 7.0 as well. So I don't think you will have to go real low on adjusting it down. I think if you bring it back down to around 6.6-6.8 then the microbes will have an easier time getting it where it needs to be from that point. As long as you don't have anymore issues with the calcium in the water (keep it filtered and check the TDS periodically to be sure the filter is doing its job) you probably won't have anymore problems with the PH. 

I am glad that I could help you. Green Mojo for the kids


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## saycheese (Feb 20, 2013)

Hi all, I gave them a light flush ph7 Top dressed with the fresh ewc mix
And then a watering with tea mix ph6.8 with levelled tablespoon of Epsom salts ( in 5litres )

I aerated all waters and the nutrient mix overnight and the ph stabilised to 7.1/7.2 so only needed small amount of lemon, I checked it regularly and I did find tha the ph of the aerated mixes didn't seem to swing after ph adjustment 
I shall check this again to be sure but before aeration ph after adjustment would swing up by a worrying amount, with aerated nutrient mix the ph swung up by 0.2 in 3-4 hours.

I shall in future always filter, aerate then stand all waters,

I also put rhizotonic in all of it at 0.5ml per litre ( canna chart posted by thc suggests to use it through early flower which is great cos the date on mine says it goes off in 4months so there's plenty needs using ) 

The pots are real heavy but as long as they don't feel overwatered I think I'm ok they have been looking much more vigorous and nice maybe a tiny bit of twist but I think it's just fast growth, 

Does anyone know, apart from the expense, Is there any reason NOT to add hygrozyme to every feed and watering? 
I've always added it at 0.5-1 ml per litre every time, when I started growing I opted for a regime of feed:feed:feed:feed at low strength , aiming for no runoff ( aiming to emulate techniques by soma ) so the habit of adding a little of everything every time has stuck for some products, I overuse/ more frequently use anything with a low or zero NPK. I think of humans and vitamin pills ie body produces less of a certain substance if it's chemically supplemented, would excess enzymes in soil cause the producers of those enzymes to become 'lazy'?

Also I have guanokalong powder guano it has 0.15% cal and 0.08 mag
Bearing in mind I have adequate cal from the water can I still top dress this in flowering? Again I've googled and ganjadiggered many times I can only find infO on the batmix soil and the liquid Guano
I think I need to top dress it soon, I'm unsure of how long it takes to break down and I think I want it to be available in week 4-5 of flowering, I could just brew tea with it which is no problem but again I worry about the calcium content

Thanks people, I've had some of these questions on the tip of my tongue for so long, spent many hours with google but you guys here at MP have really helped to bust these mysteries wide open for me I can't thank you enough


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 20, 2013)

saycheese said:
			
		

> Also I have guanokalong powder guano it has 0.15% cal and 0.08 mag
> Bearing in mind I have adequate cal from the water can I still top dress this in flowering? Again I've googled and ganjadiggered many times I can only find infO on the batmix soil and the liquid Guano
> I think I need to top dress it soon, I'm unsure of how long it takes to break down and I think I want it to be available in week 4-5 of flowering, I could just brew tea with it which is no problem but again I worry about the calcium content
> 
> Thanks people, I've had some of these questions on the tip of my tongue for so long, spent many hours with google but you guys here at MP have really helped to bust these mysteries wide open for me I can't thank you enough



yes you will be ok top dressing with that. the cal and mg is there to keep the ph from dropping. high N guano and blood meal are both short term fast release N. if you wanted slow release long term N, feather meal would be a good choice. since the guano will be sitting right on top of the new ewc, it will cook faster then if mixed globally into the soil. high N guano/blood meals will actually generate heat when the microbes in the ewc begin to break it down. remember when you top dress with the guano to not let it come in contact with the stem of the plant. if you top dress now, you should see an improvement(darker green) in about 7-10 days.


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## saycheese (Feb 20, 2013)

Thanks short, Its the 'p' I want to be available, there's little/no N in the guanokalong powder, I was kind of hoping the guanokalong would be a good organic PK and I want to time it right, if you think the calcium content is not a problem thats cool, I will top dress now, and again maybe 5 weeks into flower plus a tea or two when they are swelling


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## Hushpuppy (Feb 20, 2013)

I agree. I think that the guanokalong should be ok as it has to be broken down by the microbes and made available to the plants. And that small amount probably won't shift the PH enough to notice. It was the disolved calcium in the water that was the real culprit I think. 

I have some Hygrozyme that I accidentally ordered thinking it was something else but I haven't started using it yet. I don't yet know enough about it.


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 20, 2013)

it really cant hurt, although u might not wanna use it a lot just for the fact that your wasting your money if you already have a strong microbial herd. bacteria and fungi produce the same enzymes for the purpose of breaking down organic compounds to make them readily available to plants


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## ADK High (Feb 21, 2013)

Good Grief! classic lockout of multiple immobile nutrients, I've been in your shoes bro! Flushing should be your last resort. Do you have a soil ph meter? if not I would get one. You ideally want your soil ph between 6.0 and 6.8. If your soil ph is 7.0 then you want your water ph to be between 5.8 and 6.6. Your plants have already undergone severe nutritonal stress and it will take time for the plants to resume vigorous growth, my guess is you could see some improvement within 4-5 days if you can get your soil ph down to desired levels.


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## saycheese (Feb 23, 2013)

Plants are looking great now, symptoms have not progressed and growth is looking healthy

Seven days from switchover not showing much in the way of flower development But it's early days yet maybe just getting over stress

I think they might have been limp and rusty spotted by now without the great advice

 I've put a second light (now  2x 400 hps ) And have started a new thread in 'lighting' regarding my new issue, i may end up going back to 430w hps + 125w cfl depending on the opinions I get

Sick plants officially cured and rescued many thanks to all


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## ShOrTbUs (Feb 23, 2013)

saycheese said:
			
		

> Plants are looking great now, symptoms have not progressed and growth is looking healthy
> 
> Seven days from switchover not showing much in the way of flower development But it's early days yet maybe just getting over stress
> 
> ...



i'm so glad your plants are doing better. at 7 days into flower calyx production has not taken off yet(for most strains). you will mostly see increased vertical growth showing alternating nodes.


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## TwoHighCrimes (Feb 28, 2013)

Hi saycheese .

How are they coming along now ?

Peace THC.


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## saycheese (Mar 2, 2013)

they were looking spot on for a day or two, 

they had vega 16ml in 8litres of water two days ago

now looking like this, im not sure if they are 'rosetting'/'bunching' or if its normal, looks to me like zinc def but i think theres zinc in biovega 

worries me that if ive fed with zinc in the feed maybe its a lockout or possibly still ph of soil not quite on point yet, they dont seem to show the same interveinal chlorosis as when a little mag deficient 

they have shown white tips and still have a little bit of white tip so i think zinc 

also the bunching areas show a tiny bit of light green rubbery growth towards middles a bit like ordinary fast growth but i dont like the colour or the rubbery look

maybe its just normal growth but im not convinced

have been researching zinc def but i dont think there can be a lack of anything the only thing not supplemented was mag i think everything else is provided by these nutes

i did try to add extra lighting but it pushed temps way out of the acceptable range and im wondering if the plants are having bad reaction to a very hot period ( few hours @ +38 degrees )

was really hoping to post healthy pics but alas no i think ill battle with these for a while yet til they healthy again, if at all

(pics taken under hps- they look yellower than they really are, really theres no yellow yellow til deep under canopy, only few leaves, rest of plants are a 'N-less' lime colour, hope to see improvement from the vega)


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## saycheese (Mar 2, 2013)

also i found a graph like a circle with all the elements around it joined by lines,
it seemed to explain how one element effects another regarding plants 

i vaguely got the idea, more of one element necessitating more of another, or slowing the uptake of another, solid lines with arrows and dotted lines to show the different sorts of relationships between multiple elements

does anyone know what its called so i can hunt for more about it, or where i can find a simplified graph and explanation? 

i want to build a better understanding of whats happening when excess of a particular element effects another 

also it might be important to mention my last two waterings have been a much greater amount (was giving 5litres now giving 8litres ) taking 4-5 days to dry rather than the previous 2-3 days, even though the nutes were aerated almost up until feeding time could still have spent too much time wet, im gona back off the amounts anyway and see if it helps ( i dont let them wilt so it shouldnt hurt )

if the plants have gone pale all over will they/can they go normal dark green again? all over? or will it just be newer growth that gets its colour back,
what i think i mean is once the nutes in the leaves start to get used up as a source can they still be a  sink and green back up or do they remain how they are, yellowed but not getting worse, once they stop being a source?

just because ive fed vega and top dressed ewc i thought that would be adequate N to 're-green' the foliage if that was indeed possible

thanks


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## TwoHighCrimes (Mar 2, 2013)

Hello saycheese ,

I cannot find the nutrient /element chart that you refered to and..
I dont grow indoor but your top leaves appear to be feeling the heat IMO !
Canoeing indicates this and they look a lil hot ! 

Do you have a good breeze blowing across the canopy ?
It is possible that your leaves may colour up again but this is depending on just how yellow they have become any more than 20-30% may take quite some time to return and indoor growers generally have a limited time schedule !
Having no light on them will also fracture photosynthesis values as well !
Yet if your leaves have gone past the point of around 20-30% they may well NOT return at all !
Often once the leaves occur any damage wheather it be deficiency or Ph causing lockout 9 times out of 10 the damage will always remain IMO !

You might wish to keep a watch on the temps at the canopy level !
Applying vege nutes will also promote new top growth and the plant may accept that the lower leaves are lost ! Yet applying vege nutes while flowering any further could lead to ugly bud syndrome or even hermie due to the plant not recieving what it needs at this crucial time ! 

I'm sure others will chime in as well so i wish you luck and my input is only based on an opinion due to not being much of an indoor grower for a long while at all !

EDIT : Could you take a pic in normal daylight so we can see the colours better ?

Good luck !
THC.


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## saycheese (Mar 4, 2013)

hi thc i got some shots in a more natural light ( well, bathroom flouro ) 

i think im stressing a bit too much and that the symptoms remaining are just what the plants will bear as 'scars' from the multiple minor mishaps like soil ph being out and a few brief periods of high temps due to my own experimenntation with lighting

lighting wise im settling on 430w hps and 125w bloom cfl (each with its own reflector) and hanging another 125w blue cfl. 680w in total but im hoping if i keep the distances optimum ill get the yield/performance of a 600w hps.
they shouldnt cook

what do ya think?


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## TwoHighCrimes (Mar 4, 2013)

Hey saycheese,
I'm going to chime in with what little info i can remember from 3 yrs ago and indoor growing man.

First never stress , only i'm allowed to do that .
Drastic changes can cause a grower to take drastic action. "I'm guilty"

The lower growth is Gone past the point of salvation!
CFL's create more heat than HPS so 125w x2 is going to generate a lot of heat.
Not sure if you mentioned your HPS is air cooled hood or cooltube.
You are roughly 2 weeks into flower is that correct ?

If so i would feed maybe 1 more vege feed to boost nitrogen for the flowering period as she will most likely have early signs of nitrogen deficiency at around 7 weeks !

Then continue with the flowering phase feeding schedule Imo !

You also mentioned that you have a new CFL which is Blue.
If my memory is'nt baked ..I think that blue is for vegetative growth and will serve limited if any good purpose during flowering.

Red light closer to 2200k is what you need some people have mixed blue with red but in my experience of doing that with cfl it produced leafy buds !

I would'nt recommend using the Blue cfl at all, if your 430w HPS can adequitely cover your area and you have utilised some good flat white paint you should be golden!

Thats about all i can suggest friend. 
Your plants look good considering the complications they have endured.

Flower away !

Peace THC .


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## saycheese (Mar 4, 2013)

thanks thc,

they have greened a bit, and the bunch/rosetting slightly decreased . the lower third wasnt guna get adequate light anyway i realise so losing the foliage will prob help increase airflow and give me room to top dress as ive wired down all the branches its hard to see the dirt where they so bushy

i will only be using the blue for the next week or so while they still grow upwards then on your reccommendation i shall discontinue use and just have hps and bloom cfl

i plan on air cooling on the next run if i can afford to and if my wife allows yet more holes in the wall, should i be air cooling with a 4 or a 5 inch fan for 430w hps

on my calender ive put flowering started 4 days ago, thats when i felt they were beginning (more than 1 pistil at each budsite and less noticeable vertical growth ) 

i think im recognising the delayed stress from heat, the 'banding' or strap like thin appearance of the top growth, thankfully restricted to top and not severe

i was also thinking the same, that they look ok considering circumstances,they could be brown and naked by now

do you think ill hermie? ( in your opinion, based on what you see and know, and zero further problems )


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## TwoHighCrimes (Mar 4, 2013)

Hey saycheese,

If they are nice and lush, Pics can be decieving sometimes.
Go for it. Some indoor growers boost nitrogen up for the first week flowering to ensure that the plants dont become deficient of nitrogen to early during the flowering phase.

Some would even say that flowering doe'snt actually begin until your onset of stretch/preflowering so a 9 week flowering strain would run for 10.5 weeks kinda thing !

I'm unsure by what you mean by having a cooling fan ...but as long as you have an air exchange of at least 2 times per minute in room with 3 times being ideal you should be fine. 

Should you be using a 4 or 5 inch fan for your 430w HPS and 1x 125w cfl this depends once again on air exchange required, Room size, CFM of the fan etc... if your room was for instance 2x2x3ft you would need a passive intake fan that can move 12cfm to exchange the air 1 x per minute.
24cfm to exchange 2 x per minute etc...your ideal fan would be 3 x 12ft and 36cfm

As long as you have air exchange, dialed in temps,reliable lighting timers,  and don't kill them with kindness you should be fine regarding hermies .

Some strains are also prone to hermie easier under stress situations imo 
Personally i believe that the longer a strain has been stabilized you have less chance of getting hermies ...they can take a lil stress .

Do i think your plants will hermie ...No !

Because you are going to ensure that everything i mentioned up their is golden 

Just watch your temps brother ya wanna avoid that canoeing where possible and keep humidity at 40-60% 

All the best.
Oh and i hope my advise is ok man ...Its been a long while since i grew indoors so i am probably a bit rusty .

Good luck. THC .


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## WeedHopper (Mar 4, 2013)

Cant find anything to add to what THC said,,,,,another words  :yeahthat:


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## ShOrTbUs (Mar 4, 2013)

TwoHighCrimes said:
			
		

> Hey saycheese,
> I'm going to chime in with what little info i can remember from 3 yrs ago and indoor growing man.
> 
> First never stress , only i'm allowed to do that .
> ...



imo a mixture of light is better then just red or blue spectrum. i run a mix spectrum in the veg room. i would also run mix spectrum if i had the money to run mh & hps at the same time in my flower room.

but i agree that you never mix hps+cfl together


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## saycheese (Mar 4, 2013)

Growing liberty haze I'd say pretty unstable, relatively new strain and a cross of g13 and chemdawg ( both of which have genetics shrouded in mystery )


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## TwoHighCrimes (Mar 5, 2013)

saycheese said:
			
		

> Growing liberty haze I'd say pretty unstable, relatively new strain and a cross of g13 and chemdawg ( both of which have genetics shrouded in mystery )


yeah you have some interesting choices there saycheese  
I think BBP "BomBudPuffa" knows a Whole lot about chemdawg .

I enjoyed reading various historical stories/myths about G13 as well a few years ago.

Its really popular amongst indoor growers in Australias "Sydney town"
Kings Cross Dealers are/were selling it everywhere.

Anyway thats another story  

Are you going to do a GJ would be an interesting topic i imagine .

Peace THC


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