# Plants Not Growing At All



## Chen (Oct 15, 2016)

So, I have an odd one here.

My plants are simply not growing. I simply can't account for why.

Light - 400w MH 24/7
Medium - Soil
Water - Hard w/H&G Soil
Temp - 25-30C w/AC Cooltube

This is what they've looked like for the past 3 weeks.












It feels like time has simple stopped. I can't account for this in any way.

Appreciate any input!


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## Rosebud (Oct 15, 2016)

They are cute babies, the only thing i see right off the bat is they need some air at the roots. Either add perlite or squish the pot in your hand to loosen the soil. The other thing i see is they look like they are getting hungry, maybe a light feeding of Nitrogen?


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## yarddog (Oct 15, 2016)

What soil are they in? Have you fed them anything?


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## sopappy (Oct 15, 2016)

I've seen this but usually much sooner with seedlings that just STOP. They are on strike, something ain't right and they shut down until things are right again. Infuriating as they take up a spot under the lamp.
From seed or cloned? Might be the seeds, are they regular? I've had terrible luck with fem seeds that just come up and die. 
And here's a couple of (I think) autoflower seeds I dropped months ago. Would you believe I am actually harvesting these two this weekend 
if I can find the time to trim them. 

View attachment 100_0041.jpg


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## zem (Oct 15, 2016)

my wild guess is that soil is either too hot or too clogged


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## Chen (Oct 16, 2016)

I actually added a decent amount of Perlite this time around.

I usually add Vermiculite as well, but didn't, so the aeration of the roots should be good.

It doesn't seem to make any difference whether I water them or not. They're like the living-dead.

Frankly, I've had this issue for a while now, but only in Coco.

Now it's happening in Soil and I'm.. just stumped.

Temps are definitely good. Got the AC running all the time.


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## zem (Oct 16, 2016)

Okay Chen, since you were having this issue only in coco, it is now even more likely that it was always caused by too hot medium. Coco normally comes untreated and contains sea salt and what else. If you have some calcium nitrate at hand, just soak them overnight in 2g/liter soution then flush flush flush, then flush again. For a small quantity of coco, you could go by with soaking them in a bigger volume of water for a day then straining then flush flush flush, then flush some more. Hell even perlite raises my TDS when i first buy it, so even that needs treatment, only much less than coco. a TDS meter is very convenient to do all this. For those plants in that airy soil, I would say, flush that soil then let it dry. you could try the dutch bucket method, that should do well in flushing the soil. At this point, it is better to do a couple of water buckets first then a bucket with very low dose of ferts to ensure that they get what they want. it is better to do that in one application to avoid drowning the roots for a longer period. hope this helps


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## sopappy (Oct 16, 2016)

Chen said:


> So, I have an odd one here.
> 
> My plants are simply not growing. I simply can't account for why.
> 
> Light - 400w MH 24/7



just noticed that 24/7, maybe try to get their attention by turning off the lights. Try 18/6 , maybe they'll go looking 

Did you try flushing? When I was in dirt, I'd flush all the time, often alternating flush, nutes at 6, flush


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## Chen (Oct 16, 2016)

I've never had an issue with the soil getting too hot.. the temps in the room are pretty low (20-25C).

I'm not using Coco anymore, but I do flush pretty often.

Never had an issue with 24/0 rather than 18/6, but I will try it.

I just re-potted them into 3.5L containers with a mixture of Soil, Perlite and Vermiculite and flushed it.

Essentially, I'm going back to the basics.

But I mean, what could cause a plant to just stop growing like this? It's.. so bizarre.

Btw, the root system was pretty good. Went all the way down to the bottom of the pot, though not all around it.

I took all the soil off the roots, thinking it might have been an issue with the soil.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Oct 16, 2016)

Have you fed it?  If so, what and how much?


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## Chen (Oct 16, 2016)

The Hemp Goddess said:


> Have you fed it?  If so, what and how much?



Started off with Dutch Pro (the whole collection).

Then changed to Canna Soil Supermix.

Then changed to H&G Soil because I've had a good experience with them in Coco.

Nothing is working.

But either way, even with just plain hard water they should still grow a little.

I actually had the same thing happen in Coco and as soon as I changed to H&G Cocos they grew 12 inches in a day (no kidding).

I honestly can't account for what has been going on in my grow room for the past few months. I think my plants are haunted.


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## grass hopper (Oct 16, 2016)

our hard well water has an HIGH p.h.. could u be getting nute lockout?? are u checking, adjusting ph to 6 to 6.5 ?? look hungry..


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## Chen (Oct 18, 2016)

grass hopper said:


> our hard well water has an HIGH p.h.. could u be getting nute lockout?? are u checking, adjusting ph to 6 to 6.5 ?? look hungry..



Yes, I'm adjusting pH to ~6.7+/- every time.

Good light, good nutes, good temperature, good medium..

And yet, not growing an inch.

Come on, guys, if nothing else this is one hell of an anomaly, right?


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## zem (Oct 18, 2016)

when we say soil is "hot" we mean that it is high in ferts and salt concentration and not actually hot in temperature. I still think that this is the source of your problem


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## Chen (Oct 18, 2016)

zem said:


> when we say soil is "hot" we mean that it is high in ferts and salt concentration and not actually hot in temperature. I still think that this is the source of your problem



But I just flushed..


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 18, 2016)

What kind of "soil" are you using? Does it have nutrients in it? is it Organic soil?
The reason I ask is that in coco coir or other "soilless" mix, you will use a lower pH than if you are using "organic soil".


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## grass hopper (Oct 18, 2016)

Chen said:


> Yes, I'm adjusting pH to ~6.7+/- every time.
> 
> Good light, good nutes, good temperature, good medium..
> 
> ...


 
YUP, a head scratcher. double check your meter. how old is it? check calibration. do u own any t5s? any problems vegging there?


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## Chen (Oct 19, 2016)

Meter is only a few months old and calibrated. It does measure quite slow these days, though. Takes forever to get to the actual pH. I'll get another one if I can.

I'm using a soil mix that definitely has nutrients in it, NOT COCO.

On top of this, I seem to have more problems..

My other vegging plants (larger ones) are yellowing like mad:


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## grass hopper (Oct 19, 2016)

look like they're starving. what type of meter are u using??  the new hanna meters are about $40. and are self calibrating. i had a 4 or 5 year old hanna meter that appeared to be accurate and was also recently calibrated. it was slow to function too. i bought a new (white) one. the old meter WAS OFF. I needed twice the ph down i was using. i know u said yours was pretty new but jeeze they look hungry. something is killing them. if not the ph, it maybe a problem in the roots. jmo


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## robertr (Oct 19, 2016)

Do you have a TDS meter, if you do you should check the runoff. Gives you an idea of how strong the ferts are in your soil. 
 That's the first thing I do when I see a problem with my plants.
 My guess is they are under fed.


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## sopappy (Oct 20, 2016)

I thinnk GH is on to something with your meter. If it's off and you go for 6.7, your pH could be way off. Does your city water read what it usually does or close?
Clean the tip in vinegar, rinse under tap, store in distilled.


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## Rosebud (Oct 20, 2016)

They look hungry and burned at the same time. We need the name and ingredients of the soil you are in.. Can you send us a link? Not all soils are equal.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 20, 2016)

That soil is locked up tighter than... you know. I bet you have way high concentration of calcium in your water and it is locking up the pH in the soil. Or it could be more than one element that is over the top in the source water. You need to have your water tested.


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## Chen (Oct 23, 2016)

Sorry for the delay.

People have been saying "tight soil" for a while, but I have no idea what that means. I use store-bought planting mix (the same one I've always used), perlite and vermiculite.

There is definitely calcium in the water. PPM is generally 300-500.

I do have a reverse osmosis filter. Maybe I could try using that.

I'll get another pH meter.

They definitely look under-fed, but they're not. I give them 1,000+ PPM every time (H&G Soil).

Besides that, they already get nutrients from the soil.

There is nothing that could account for this..

I've been to every grow store, talked to everyone I know. There is just no answer!

My flowering plants seem alright, though. They, too, has stunted growth but in flower they've been doing quite well.

Maybe even the first week before flower (?) Serious voodoo going on around here.


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## Rosebud (Oct 23, 2016)

There is an answer, you just need to figure out what it is. For instance, i have some seedlings that didn't  look right... I couldn't figure it out...After going a little nuts I read the organic  seed starter package and behold there was aloe vera in the mix as a moisture additive. Pot HATES moisture additives... It wants to have a bit of a dry period. I put them in fox farm and smart pots, (air to the roots) and they turned around in 24 hours.. This isn't my first grow..

Good luck to you. part of growing is reading the plants... it's hard.. It is do-able though.
Let us know if we can help.


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## Chen (Oct 23, 2016)

Boy, that's one strange story.

I know for a fact that the soil I'm using is good. I've been using it for years. The coco I had displayed the same issues.

I also let the medium get dry before watering.

So, that's really not the answer and I am going more than a little nuts.

How can you grow weed when accounting for ALL of the most basic variables doesn't solve the problem?

It's like complicated surgery at this point where the tiniest of issues can kill.

I'd go anywhere to find the answer but I can't think of where else to go..


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## Rosebud (Oct 23, 2016)

You haven't accounted for every variable...  No bugs or mites of any kind?


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## Chen (Oct 23, 2016)

Fungus Gnats, but they're all but eradicated and I've never had any serious issues with them.


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## robertr (Oct 23, 2016)

If you are feeding those little plants plants 1000ppm, I would say that is to strong, your runoff is probably higher.


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## sopappy (Oct 24, 2016)

Chen said:


> Sorry for the delay.
> 
> People have been saying "tight soil" for a while, but I have no idea what that means. I use store-bought planting mix (the same one I've always used), perlite and vermiculite.
> 
> ...



You're letting all the variables get to you. Voodoo, I hear that.
Try not to care so much, it's a weed, wants to grow, most prolific plant on the planet.
Is your water okay? ppm is high and you add 1K
try a good flush 6.0 pH'd water,
halve your rec nutes, maybe even use that filtre

I bet you can't germ seeds with that water
clean or replace the probe, darn grows are expensive


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## Chen (Oct 24, 2016)

I did germinate the seeds with that water. Been using it for years.

I flushed with tap water (pH ~7.0).

Will try to water with lower dose of nutrients.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 25, 2016)

The thing you need to get a full understanding of is the chemistry that is involved with growing, using synthetic nutrients(man-made). In nature, microbes do all the work of breaking down raw materials and feeding them to the plants. They also do all the work of controlling the pH in the soil. When you grow using "synthetic" nutrients (typically known as fertilizer) YOU have to assume the role of balancing the nutrients and pH in the soil so that the plants are able to absorb the nutrients.

Plants have to have certain pH present in the soil in order to be able to absorb all of the different elements that we call nutrients. In nature or in "organic" growing, the microbes take care of the pH so that the plant can access all of the elements it needs. 
For the "synthetic" grower this pH range has to be controlled by us. We also have to control the amount of elements that we put into the soil at any point because each element can and will affect the pH. But the elements can also affect each other. 
Too much of any one element within the soil can bind chemically with other elements and prevent the plant from having access to either element.

When I say the soil is "locked up tight", that means the pH is so far out of the acceptable range that none or few elements within the soil are able to be absorbed by the plant. Also, if an element such as magnesium is said to be "locked up", that means either the pH is out of the range for the roots to be able to absorb magnesium, or there is something that is chemically binding with the magnesium which prevents the roots from absorbing it. This often happens with coco coir. There is an element within the coco that chemically bonds with magnesium and calcium(some). If large amounts of coco are used in soilless application then magnesium deficiency can occur if the coco isn't pretreated some.

Now another term here is "the soil/medium is too hot" That means the soil/medium has too much nutrients and their presence is literally able to chemically burn the roots and leaves of the plants.

If you are using soil that has lots of nutrients already available in it and then you toss in a strong dose of synthetic nutrients, along with heavy water(high mineral content), it can cause multiple issues from nutrient burn to toxicity. Also, soil that has nutrients already may not have the balance that your plants like. They then can leave these elements in the soil which can react to the elements that you are adding with your nutes and water.

If you have RO I would use it for these. I would also suggest that you go back to neutral soil/medium by flushing them with straight water. Then start over with fresh nutrients set at the proper pH. This will eliminate any chemical issues by removing all of the chemicals with the flush. But be sure to aerate the new nutrient batch before giving to the plant.

Now some people will say the soil "looks too tight", that means the soil is compacted. Plants need soil or medium that is easily broken and moved to allow plenty of air to get down into it as the water drains out or is used. Often people use pearlite to break up the soil so that it isn't able to compact.

I hope this helps.


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## Chen (Oct 26, 2016)

Hushpuppy, I totally agree with you that it looks like a SERIOUS pH and/or X element deficiency..

But I've used every possible kind of nutes (including just plain soft and hard water), used two pH meters to verify a pH of 6.2-6.7, and several types of soil and perlite/vermiculite mixtures.

It just isn't any of these things. It really is voodoo.


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## Hushpuppy (Oct 26, 2016)

What is the common link in all of the grows that had mysterious issues. Would that be the water?


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## Chen (Oct 26, 2016)

All my grows have used the exact same water and most of them the same nutrients. I also had frequent issues with fungus gnats that didn't amount to anything.

These plants are dying because they have literally locked themselves out of any nutrients.

It's like someone cut off all their roots. I washed the roots and then repotted them in new soil.

You can't tell me that this is something you've ever seen happen before.


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## sopappy (Oct 27, 2016)

I've experienced this and worse, don't look at the pictures here 
2 more cents...
did the roots smell like fresh carrots? clean up nice and white after that wash? 
when I grew in dirt, every 2nd feed was plain water,
you sure your pH meter is okay
I think ph 6.7 is high, I'd go 6.0


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## Chen (Oct 27, 2016)

It's not an issue with water, nutrients or medium. All three are fine.

The only possibility is that the fungus gnats have completely destroyed the roots to the point where the plant can't create new ones.

I made another thread about it, but I don't know if that's the case.

I'll pull up one of the plants today and sniff the roots to let you know.


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## The Poet (Nov 23, 2016)

Chen, nee how ma

   Howdy, I have been watching you struggling with your plants and I don't know what your problem is but I had a similar experience. 

   For three years I struggled with a million problems. Every thing was wrong and nothing was right. Till I threw out the sack soil that came recommended by the son of the hydro store owner and started using Fox Farms, Ocean Forest soil. I'm not saying your soil is bad but it was changing soils that made growing simple. Just one thing.
One sack of soil replaced with another sack of soil and it made all the difference in the world.
   Empire Builder soil refused to drain! Even with 40% added perlite it was always heavy in the center and after harvesting a few plants and letting the 3 gallon pots sit over in the corner, I dumped out the dirt 3 months later and it was still wet in the center and it stunk! a clear indication of 'poor drainage'. That was my only problem! One problem!

   Now all my plants are happy and healthy. Dark green leaves without one imperfection, growing like kudzu!. They're beautiful but I was where you are for those 3 years and was a lost soul. 
Keep working on the problem, you'll figure it out and all your problems will be over. 
   Cannabis grows in poor soil with nothing but rain and thrives. 
I have grown a garden for over 50 years and thought I could do the same inside. 
Inside growing is different but you'll figure it out. 

   The solution is simple and should not cost a lot of money. Try different soils and water them "when they need it". I let mine go 5 days and sometimes 9, and till I see a bit of wilting I leave them alone. 
"Cannabis likes its wet and dry cycles" [Rosebud] 
and it "doesn't like to have wet feet all the time" [me]
It took me 3 years and the help of the fine folks here on the forum {thanks again y'all} all my plants are 'healthy as hogs' now and growing like Kudzu.


                                 Thank you... shea shea


                                             The Poet...

.


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## Chen (Nov 26, 2016)

Hi, Poet.

Yes, the issue was definitely the soil.

I moved to Coco and Hydro and the plants are green and happy.

On top of that, the plants that already were in soil have been flowering well so far.

So, all is well right now


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## The Poet (Nov 26, 2016)

Chen,


   Good! You figured it out pretty fast.
I don't understand coco or hydro, I use Fox Forest Ocean Farms soil and water "when they need it" and it works perfectly all the time. 
Good luck with your gardening endeavors.


                       The Poet... 


.


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## Chen (Nov 28, 2016)

Poet,

Yes! That's exactly what I used to do. Except for some reason, the soil stopped working..

I don't have name-brand soil where I live, but I've been using the same bagged soil for years. Maybe they changed the ingredients?

On the other hand, coco wasn't working for me either about 6 months ago. Same exact symptoms - no growth, leaves are yellow.

Then I discovered H&G Cocos and the plants grew a foot overnight. Not to advertise them - the H&G Soil didn't do anything for my soil plants. Maybe the Coco I used before wasn't pre-washed? Bah..

Someone is trying to screw with me, that much is for sure!


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## zem (Nov 28, 2016)

coco contains sea salt AKA sodium chloride, toxic to plants, stunts growth. soak coco in calcium nitrate 2g/liter solution overnight, then flush flush flush, then grow in it


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