# Supercritical CO2 extraction



## KaliKitsune

If you don't feel like futzing around with butane/hexane for making oil, you can always go the CO2 route. You can buy CO2 gas cheap, and it's a much more gentle solvent than supercritical butane, so you get a more pure product. I've used this successfully for extracting essential oils from more than just bud, it works wonderfully on rosemary, lavendar, and such so you can make your own scented oils and stuff!


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## jb247

I would love to see an instructional on this extraction method, I've tried extracting several different ways, but this I've never seen...

Peace...j.b.


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## HippyInEngland

jb247 said:
			
		

> I would love to see an instructional on this extraction method, I've tried extracting several different ways, but this I've never seen...
> 
> Peace...j.b.


 
I agree.



ostpicsworthless:


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## KaliKitsune

The method is the exact same as for butane extraction. You just put your herb in a container that can take high pressure, preferably with a valve for gas exchange. Get a tank of CO2 and the proper connection line, fill the container with herb with pressurized CO2. under pressure, CO2 looks and acts like a liquid but it's still a gas - this is called Super-Critical. While a 'liquid' it will act as a solvent. This works for extracting most essential oils from most any plant material.


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## I Eat Valium

Doesn't Ice water sound even better? Hard to beat 100% pure hash.


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## 7greeneyes

I Eat Valium said:
			
		

> Doesn't Ice water sound even better? Hard to beat 100% pure hash.


Nothin' purer then hash oil. Love it. Better as a tincture broken down to a transient liquid state in such fine liquors as Everclear or any other UHPalcohol (nuthin under 151proof) . Never done the water extraction method but it sounds wicked cool. As a sidenote...supercritical means at a temperature and pressure above its thermodynamic critical point. The gas (butane or co2) itself is not a "supercritical" anything. Take Care, bud.


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## 7greeneyes

{note: only do this in a well ventilated outdoorsy place...like outside} U can also utilize a dbl boiler method w/ the everclear/hashish mix in a separate (uncovered) pressure cooker set in the water. Simmer it for as long as possible until it dissolves the alcohol-goodness away and you'll be left w/ a green sludge. Throw that in the freezer and remove 24hrs later. ...I've also married salvinorin-a w/ cannabis thc-a in this manner...Mmmm'mmm'mmm hippy crack. Wouldn't reccommed it for the faint hearted or people that don't wanna lose their silver chord. Sorry...went crystalwaver on ya's. Peace guys.


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## KaliKitsune

7greeneyes said:
			
		

> Nothin' purer then hash oil. Love it. Better as a tincture broken down to a transient liquid state in such fine liquors as Everclear or any other UHPalcohol (nuthin under 151proof) . Never done the water extraction method but it sounds wicked cool. As a sidenote...supercritical means at a temperature and pressure above its thermodynamic critical point. The gas (butane or co2) itself is not a "supercritical" anything. Take Care, bud.



Wikipedia says you're wrong - "A *supercritical fluid* is any substance at a temperature and pressure above its thermodynamic critical point. It can diffuse through solids like a gas, and dissolve materials like a liquid."


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## Puffin Afatty

*Please understand this is not a flame, I really want to know if there is some qualitative difference perceived, when you use butane/co2/hexane, etc., but why would You go to all the hassle instead of just using iso 91 percent :hubba: *


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## 7greeneyes

Puffin Afatty said:
			
		

> *Please understand this is not a flame, I really want to know if there is some qualitative difference perceived, when you use butane/co2/hexane, etc., but why would You go to all the hassle instead of just using iso 91 percent :hubba: *


he's arguing semantics when I'm merely telling him supercritical is a thermodynamic point, not properties, ...talk aboot wiedkinder. anyways, to answer (IMO) you PuffinAffaty, I prefer everclear because u can dissolve the oil down a minimal amount of residual alcohol but yet still keep it in a liquified ingestable state, whereas i'd never drink iso unless I reduced/distilled it down first in a bath of PGA  Hope this clarifies, if not, oh well...p.s. other then that, I'd have to argue that 3x butane extraction is less efficient then an acetone bath because I've noticed residual crystals in the mix but when using acetone or an everclear extraction, it pulled everything w/ minimal amount of cholophyll contamination. You guys take it easy.


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## Puffin Afatty

*I can see the logic in the everclear, versus ISO, but why would anyone go to the trouble of super critical, butane, hexene etc :confused2:*


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## Tater

If gas without impurities is used then no impurities will be transfered to the final product.  I can't prove this and have no quantifiable evidence but personally I would think that 90% ISO would still leave some impurities behind and not only that that 10% is most likely water.  Which is then transfered to the extraction must be removed from the final product.  This is all just coming from some crazy fairy in my head but it seems to make sense.  I dunno I'm wrecked.


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## Puffin Afatty

*I have made iso many times and tried the butane 2x, the final products were very similar, but the iso was every bit as good and yield was also the same.  I just dont see it worth any more hassle than iso :confused2:*


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## Tater

I guess chalk it up to different strokes for different folks lol.


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## massproducer

IMO, ISO is not even in the same league as BHO, they do not call it honey oil for nothing, it is so contaminate free that the color of the oil is golden.  Butane only really extracts cannabinoids and terpenoids.  This means that the only other thing beside cannabinoids that will be readily extracted are aromas and flavors, so if you have some majorily tasty buds, the BHO will take on those same flavors.  Everything else is left behind, this includes, waxes, tars, chlorophyll and a whole host of other elements.

I would also have to disagree with 7greeneyes because the fact is that you would need labratory testing to determine any level of impurities left behind from any good Butane.

I will agree that alcohol wheather ISO or everclear will give a slightly larger yield, but this is not really benefical if you are just weighing your product down with contaminates.  I am willing to sacrifice a fraction of my yeild for impeccable quality.


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## HippyInEngland

Whisky is whisky to some folk, but some realise the differences of quality whiskies, if the person drinking whisky is drinking it because it is simply a whisky, then they are happy.


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## Dozingoffaroundthecorner

Dude! You know how to extract for essential oils?? I was really interested in that for a while and gave up because I was afraid of blowing up.


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## Dozingoffaroundthecorner

Can you use dry ice?


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## Dozingoffaroundthecorner

The only thing that turned me off from homemade bubble hash rigs was the butane. CO2 is organic and less combustible. It's a lot safer to work with unless you add carbonation.


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## POTUS

massproducer said:
			
		

> you would need laboratory testing to determine any level of impurities left behind from any good Butane.


Your right! The same lab could provide you with some quality photos of your new cancer tumors that will form as a result of the same residuals in some people.

Let's remember that we're trying to get high. Let's not get nuts over it. If getting high has to go so far as to risk known cancer causing residuals being left in your body, it no longer is worth it.

Folks risking being blown to pieces, developing tumors, it just seems like desperation at that point. Willing to risk it all just to get high.

I heard a crack head try to justify the same thing once.

Let's not lose our perspective.

This all started as taking a little toke from a joint once in awhile. Now we're into lab procedures, explosives and tumors.

Where will it stop? We're feeding the very people who are keeping it illegal by propagating these methods.

Sorry, I had to say it. It needed said. I know that a bunch will flame me for it, but it still had to be said.

Please folks, let's all be careful with what we do and do all in moderation. Excessive anything can kill you. Get high WHILE you live. Living to get high is something else entirely. Living is the key. High should be an accompaniment, not the primary goal of life.

<Stoney dons his flame retardant suit and braces himself....>


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## massproducer

Well stoney this is far from a flame but I surely do have to disagree with you regarding the Carcinogenicity of butane itself.  n-Butane in itself is not a human carcinogenic, in fact in low doses it is actually considered non-toxic to humans.  What makes Cheaper unclean brands of butane carcinogenic is when they add "1,3 Butadiene" which is a human carcinogen and mutagenic, but this is not added to clean brands, only cheaper camping stove types butane fuels.

The fact is that making BHO correctly is actually cleaner then smoking buds, because you are not extracting the known carcinogens from the buds, just pure cannabinoids and terpenoids, with any fractional impurities (if any even exist) being so small that you need lab testing just to find them.

I will conceed that it can be very dangerous if you are not using common sense, but extracting BHO outside is totally safe, it evaporates very quickly and will not ignite without a source.

A little more info on Butane:

Inhalation: 

At low concentrations n-butane is essentially non-toxic. At high concentrations, it can cause depression of the central nervous system (CNS) with symptoms such as headache, nausea, dizziness, drowsiness and confusion, based on animal and human information. It is expected to cause unconsciousness (narcosis) due to CNS depression at approximately 17000 ppm (1.7%).(24) (Note that n-butane is extremely flammable (lower explosive limit: 1.8-1.9%)). No symptoms except drowsiness were experienced by 3-6 volunteers during a 10-minute exposure to 10000 ppm (1%).(2)


Ingestion:

Ingestion is not an applicable route of exposure for gases.



Effects of Long-Term (Chronic) Exposure


n-Butane is not expected to cause health effects following long-term exposure. 



Carcinogenicity: 


No human or animal information for n-butane was located.
Some grades of n-butane may contain 1,3-butadiene, which is classified by the International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) as a human carcinogen (Group 1). If 1,3-butadiene is present in n-butane at a concentration of more than 0.1%, the mixture is considered carcinogenic. For more information, refer to the CHEMINFO review of 1,3-butadiene.



The International Agency for Research on Cancer (IARC) has not evaluated the carcinogenicity of this chemical.



The American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (ACGIH) has not assigned a carcinogenicity designation to this chemical.



The US National Toxicology Program (NTP) has not listed this chemical in its report on carcinogens. 


Teratogenicity and Embryotoxicity: 
n-Butane itself is not expected to cause developmental effects. There are two case reports of exposure to n-butane gas during pregnancy.(27,28) In both cases, severe oxygen deprivation occurred in the mothers who were unconscious when found. Both babies had brain damage due to oxygen deprivation, not to n-butane toxicity. No animal studies were located.



Reproductive Toxicity: 
No human or animal information was located. n-Butane is not expected to cause reproductive effects.



Mutagenicity: 
No human or animal information was located for n-butane. Negative results were obtained in short-term tests.
Some grades of n-butane may contain 1,3-butadiene, which is mutagenic. If 1,3-butadiene is present in n-butane at a concentration of more than 0.1%, the mixture is considered mutagenic. For more information, refer to the CHEMINFO review of 1,3-butadiene.



Toxicologically Synergistic Materials: 
None known.



Potential for Accumulation: 
Does not accumulate.

hxxp://www.intox.org/databank/documents/chemical/butane/cie69.htm


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## Puffin Afatty

massproducer said:
			
		

> IMO, ISO is not even in the same league as BHO, they do not call it honey oil for nothing, it is so contaminate free that the color of the oil is golden. Butane only really extracts cannabinoids and terpenoids. This means that the only other thing beside cannabinoids that will be readily extracted are aromas and flavors, so if you have some majorily tasty buds, the BHO will take on those same flavors. Everything else is left behind, this includes, waxes, tars, chlorophyll and a whole host of other elements.
> 
> I would also have to disagree with 7greeneyes because the fact is that you would need labratory testing to determine any level of impurities left behind from any good Butane.
> 
> I will agree that alcohol wheather ISO or everclear will give a slightly larger yield, but this is not really benefical if you are just weighing your product down with contaminates. I am willing to sacrifice a fraction of my yeild for impeccable quality.


 
*When ether was easily available back in the 70's, we would wash our weed and the resultant was great :hubba: *

* If you only shake the iso/weed bath for about 2 minutes, the resulting oil is every bit as pure amber as butane extraction. If you go beyond 2 minutes it takes on all sorts of stuff and turns green.  *

*IMLTHO :rofl:*

*ISO is the way to go, or everclear if you prefer to spend the $$.*


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## Dozingoffaroundthecorner

Yeah but butane is not naturally occurring. I am sure in large amounts that C2O or butane can be potentially harmful. I don't even like to light it up with butane because it tastes weird and burns way to fast.  

Regardless I would like to see Kali K breakdown this method for extraction.


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## POTUS

massproducer said:
			
		

> Well stoney this is far from a flame but I surely do have to disagree with you regarding the Carcinogenicity of butane itself. n-Butane in itself is not a human carcinogenic, in fact in low doses it is actually considered non-toxic to humans. What makes Cheaper unclean brands of butane carcinogenic is when they add "1,3 Butadiene" which is a human carcinogen and mutagenic, but this is not added to clean brands, only cheaper camping stove types butane fuels.
> 
> The fact is that making BHO correctly is actually cleaner then smoking buds, because you are not extracting the known carcinogens from the buds, just pure cannabinoids and terpenoids, with any fractional impurities (if any even exist) being so small that you need lab testing just to find them.
> 
> I will conceed that it can be very dangerous if you are not using common sense, but extracting BHO outside is totally safe, it evaporates very quickly and will not ignite without a source.


 
I understand what you're saying.

I don't agree, but I do understand.

If you asked any world class chemist if this process left any residuals, he/she would say "Yes". If you in turn asked him/her "Are any of those residuals possibly a health concern of they were ingested via applying a flame and smoking them?", again, any chemist in their right mind would respond "Yes, very possibly. Even though adequate testing may not have been performed yet, to say that they would be totally free of health risks, given the application, would be unprofessional and more than likely incorrect".

Ask one in that same exact manner and you'll see.

I already have.

That is exactly the answer I received.

He had more statements about the sanity of anyone who would pressurize butane while holding in front of them with no safety PPE involvement, but I won't bore you with that. He was laughing too hard to really understand what he was saying clearly.

hehe

Just how much is a high worth?

I can take some of my home grown stash, put it into my vape and smoke it and get just as high as any butane oil you can produce.

I haven't risked my life to get high.

If someone wishes to disregard that fact that the butane process is absolutely dangerous, with no doubt what-so-ever, and do it anyway, then more power to them. They do so with full knowledge that they might indeed become a dead human being as a result.

Good luck to you.


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## massproducer

Stoney so are you saying it is foolish to fill a butane lighter, like that should be done with safety gear?

If you have talked to chemist and he told you that there are some carcinogenic residuals left behind from n-butane then they are basically lying, butane in small amounts is not a health risk at all, the major health risk being suffication from a very high PPM, which displaces oxygen, and of course explosion, but for anything to explode there has to be an ignition source, butane doesn't spontanously combust.  

Have you ever gone camping?  I do several times per year, and I always bring my trusty BUTANE stove, and the stove uses unclean butane that adds fillers and chemicals that add smells to tell you if there is a leak, you do not get sick from ingesting the food cooked using butane fuel, you also do not need any safety material to start the stove or cook with it even though you are using an open flame.

I research everything, especially anything that I plan to consume, and butane is safe, very safe.  Not to mention that because of its very low boiling point it evaporates at room temps, so there is never any need for anything other then a dish of hot water to evaporate 99.5% of the butane in under 15 minutes, while the rest I slowly purge over a heating mat for about an hour, and yes all of the butane evaporates.

The purity of BHO and some its related products have been tested, with the most famous being budder, invented by the budder King, in BC.  Dr. hornby a scientist with a PHd, tested the purity of the budder kings, "real deal budder" and it tested at 99% thc, as buddering adds air, removes terpenes, and converts all cannabinoids to THC-delta 9.

Another famous BHO product invented by soma of soma seeds is Jelly Hash, which is a mixture of 3 parts BHO and 1 part bubble hash.  This is my personal favorite, as I have buddered up my BHO by adding add but I am a little worried about the chemical conversion of the cannabinoids, and working with strong acids.


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## massproducer

POTUS said:
			
		

> Just how much is a high worth?  For BHO about $80 - $120 per gram, thats if you can even find it.
> 
> I can take some of my home grown stash, put it into my vape and smoke it and get just as high as any butane oil you can produce.
> 
> Obviously you have never tried BHO, budder or jellyhash, so in all fairness this is a statement that holds little validity.
> 
> 
> 
> If someone wishes to disregard that fact that the butane process is absolutely dangerous, with no doubt what-so-ever, and do it anyway, then more power to them. They do so with full knowledge that they might indeed become a dead human being as a result.
> 
> Facts stoney, we need facts, Any reports, which I have only heard like two out of the tens of thousands I have read or witnessed, of anyone blowing up or even the butane igniting has always been from shear carelessness, like smoking while they extract.  As was stated, extracting outside with no ignition source near is no threat whatso ever.  In order for the butane to ignite even with a source, their has to be a significant amount of butane pooled, in one spot, which is pretty hard to do outsideas the butane almost instantly is mixed with air and carried of into the atmosphere


 
I understand your stance on this stoney and as you said, I understand, but i do not agree


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## POTUS

MP, you know that you can't tell me that there is ABSOLUTELY no possible way that cancer causing residuals are left after using butane to make oil.

The key word in what I posted last was "MAY".

It's not "If" I spoke to a chemist. Adding the "If" to it implies something you don't want to do with me.

Re-read what I wrote. I was very careful with my wording for that very reason.

Also, you know as well as I do that some of the people who may read what you've posted MAY NOT be as intelligent as you. They may not understand safety fully when dealing with flammables such as butane. THEY may kill themselves by NOT following your instructions to the letter. NOT out of stupidity, but out of ignorance of what can happen. In SOME cases, something as simple as STATIC could ignite butane IF the proper circumstances were to happen and IF that were the case, then there could be a very DEAD person.

Sorry man. I stand firmly on what I've said. It's dangerous because of the inherent danger in using explosive gases and substances and YES butane is both if used improperly. I don't care if you do it on the moon.

BTW, I don't think you can mention any type of substance I haven't tried. I just haven't made it myself.

Dude, I'm looking out for the people who are not as educated and/or intelligent as you are.

I'm sorry, but you are not doing so.

Now I'm done with this conversation. Advise people to do whatever you wish and I certainly won't interrupt you again. I don't take kindly to being insulted and I simply won't give you another chance to do so.

That's the end of this for me.


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## Dozingoffaroundthecorner

Okay where is Kali K with his DIY for this?


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## massproducer

So this is what you wrote before I addressed anything regarding anything you have said, if you do not find this insulting, then I do not know what to tell you stoney.


"That is exactly the answer I received.

He had more statements about the sanity of anyone who would pressurize butane while holding in front of them with no safety PPE involvement, but I won't bore you with that. He was laughing too hard to really understand what he was saying clearly."

So please do not tell me about how I insulted you until you look at how your statements may effect me.

Anytime anyone is claiming that a concentrated extract will do the same as an unconcentrated substance, that really seems somewhat nieve.  That is like saying you can drink beer and drink 151 and think they will have the same effects because they are both alcohols, that just simply isn't true.

I understand your opinions, but you are lacking any type of substanial facts.  BHO is one of the most widely made exctracts today, many companies sell chambers and kits specifically made for extracting BHO.  IN fact more people are injuried or die doing everyday things, then probably anything else.  I feel more of a threat everyday getting in my car, because I do not control other drivers on the road, while I totally control my sitation and conditions when I am making BHO.  

Once again butane can not ignite with the PPM's that will be present extracting it outside.  Every report of ignition i have ever seen were as I said from people extracting in their homes where the butane is allowed to pool, and then the ignite the pooled butane by smoking.  Propane BBQ's are dangous if you use them inside, while using them outside is almost no risk.  It is the same as butane, because they are both volitile gases.


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## umbra

I was reading this thread and it reminded me of a story. Not sure how many go back this far. A guy from Australia moves to Holland. Late 1970"s. Starts doing oil extraction with Alcohol and final extraction with ether. Made quite a bit of money. Chemical electric burner ( supposed to be sparkless) sparked and he was nearly burned alive. That was Neville Schoenmaker. And he has the scars to prove it. Just something to think about. Not likely to happen, first time or maybe never. We are live and die by our beliefs. You decide.


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## 7greeneyes

massproducer...not to sound like a cotton-headed ninny muggins or a flamer (gah I hate that word), but I think your reading but not comprehending the words I am typing down...I meant the taste is "pure"...clean, I am no chemist by a long shot, just an amateur with xtra bud and too much time on my hands and w/ all this arguing, there is still NO IRRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT SMOKING CANNABIS BUD BY ITSELF is not carcinogenic as well...show me the FDA reports that claim 0% chance marijuana is carcinogenic. Whether armchair chemists or bud purists, we are chancing it...vap'ing is the closest thing to an ABSOLUTE. As far as method, here's what's being missed by some of us on this threadhere's what I said previously. .."other then that, I'd have to argue that 3x butane extraction is less efficient then an acetone bath because I've noticed residual crystals in the mix "Notice I said that there were STILL crystals left behind in the trim...And then massproducer wrote..." (I) would also have to disagree with 7greeneyes because the fact is that you would need labratory testing to determine any level of impurities left behind from any good Butane."I've noticed alot of people don't really READ what is written, they just scan over and hastily type their responses. Just as Chuck Pahlniuk wrote: "We're all just waiting for our turn to talk and not listening to one another. I mean REALLY listening..." ; FIGHTCLUB 1996


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## massproducer

7greeneyes, the comment that I disputed had nothing to do with you saying crystals were left... it was right after that that you said, "  I'd have to argue that 3x butane extraction is less efficient then an acetone bath because I've noticed residual crystals in the mix but when using acetone or an everclear extraction, *it pulled everything w/ minimal amount of cholophyll contamination*"
But then in the post before that you said you are left with green sludge.  By the first comment you are contrasting the purity and efficiency of butane vs everclear.  But from your own words you are saying that you are left with a green sludge.  THC is not green, chlorophyll is, if you were extracting pure cannabinoids and terpenoids then it would be a clear amber colour like honey oil is, because Butane only extract cannabinoids and terpenoids while leaving behind chlorophyll and other carcinogens.

Thinking that combusting a organic material and inhaling the smoke, that contains many of the same substances as cigerettes, but has no inherent risks is somewhat nieve... Why do you think that people go through the trouble of using vapourizers?  It is because they do not combust the material and mearly vapourize the active ingedients, once again leaving behind the carcenigens.  Smoking tar and other byproducts that are present in smoked cannabis definiatly have the chance at causing cancer.  If your carcinogen comment was directed at me, I think that you should read what I wrote.


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## massproducer

*"I've noticed alot of people don't really READ what is written, they just scan over and hastily type their responses. Just as Chuck Pahlniuk wrote: "We're all just waiting for our turn to talk and not listening to one another. I mean REALLY listening."*

This must also include yourself, because I do not ever remember saying that cannabis has no carcinogenic properties, so please point out where i said "anything" of that nature, please.  On the contrary, I said that because BHO only extracts cannabinoids and terpenoids, which is a benefit as their will be no carcinogens left, they will not get extracted, that is why honey oil is honey coloured.

I would also agrue that BHO, is safer as far as carcinogens then even vaped buds, because if the heating element is heating up too much in your vapourizer then the carcinogens will be realesed in the vapour, while in BHO there is none to start with.  This is not true with Alcohol, because as soon as it comes in contact iso and ever clear will start to extract everything, this is fact


w/ all this arguing, there is still NO IRRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT SMOKING CANNABIS BUD BY ITSELF is not carcinogenic as well...show me the FDA reports that claim 0% chance marijuana is carcinogenic. Whether armchair chemists or bud purists, we are chancing it...vap'ing is the closest thing to an ABSOLUTE


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## MysticWolf

Dear Kali,

If I can use the same O'kief butane rig then where do you find the right fittings for the CO2 tank? Also do the internals of the tank need pulled and cut or do you use the tank upright instead of upside down like butane. Thinking tank upright to get the liquid then a hose to some kind of fitting?

And I agree a demo or some pics or a project list would be kewl 
Thanks 
MW


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## Hick

> Just as Chuck Pahlniuk wrote: "We're all just waiting for our turn to talk and not listening to one another. I mean REALLY listening."


Nobody ever listens to me, until I fart..:confused2:...


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## Mutt

> U can also utilize a dbl boiler method w/ the everclear/hashish mix in a separate (uncovered) pressure cooker set in the water. Simmer it for as long as possible until it dissolves the alcohol-goodness away and you'll be left w/ a green sludge.


 
    

People don't do this!!!! If you do use elec. NOT GAS heat unless you wanna fill your kitchen up with fumes and blow yourself up. Just as easy to set out and let evap. just requires a lil thing called patience. I set it outside...once filled my whole garage up with alcohol smell and i wasn't heating it. Just becuase alcohol seems safe but in concentrated fumes it will ignite be enough to flash burn the hell outa ya. IMO Prolly the same thing if you lit a match around Hick after he farted :rofl:

Green sludge is *NOT* how i want my oil to look. 

Now as far as the CO2 method never seen it. Would need to see some pics. Stick with my Butane and ISO.


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## CallMeAFool2

As you said POTUS, it is about getting high.  It is refreshing to see though that some of you take it so depth that the conversation actually sounds intelligent.  

Heck, deeps breathes in Atlanta, Los Angeles and other places would seem to have many more properties that are much worse.  After Trying the Underwater form of drying out bud, I saw so much more properties and smaller weights, so a super amount of impurities come out that way that are in the normal smoke otherwise.  I think they are pretty safe doing this oil extracts.  But I am not a scientist


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## mfer

Puffin Afatty said:
			
		

> *I can see the logic in the everclear, versus ISO, but why would anyone go to the trouble of super critical, butane, hexene etc :confused2:*




ISO you should never use because it is actually poison.  Ethanol (everclear) is great but it is semi polar which means it will take out chlorophyll along with the resin crystals.

Hexane and butane are both non polar so the honey comes much more pure (less contaminants ie chlorophyll.


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## Karma

so i was just doing some research for a paper on SCFE and came across this thread. let me first start by saying for this topic to still not have a final conclusion is kinda sad. you wonder why the med scene has taken so long to develop. 
  over my years of experience in the med/sci industry and making extracts of all types of varieties, this is pretty much the details you need to know about butane purity:
    BUTANE Specifications
    Pure Butane (Premium Grade) 99.99% 
    Research Grade - Min. Purity 99.95%
    Instrument Grade - Min. Purity 99.5% (Liquid Phase)
    CP Grade - Min. Purity 99.0%
    Provided with Eductor Tube for Liquid Withdrawal on Request
    NORMAL BUTANE, 95% (camp stove)

About Health:Effects and health issues Inhalation of butane can cause euphoria, drowsiness, narcosis, asphyxia,   cardiac arrhythmia, and frostbite which can result in death from asphyxiation and ventricular fibrillation. Butane is the most commonly misused volatile substance in the UK, and was the cause of 52% of "solvent related" deaths in 2000.[2] By spraying butane directly into the throat, the jet of fluid can cool rapidly to &#8211;20 °C by expansion, causing prolonged laryngospasm.[3] "Sudden sniffer's death" syndrome, first described by Bass in 1970,[4] is the most common single cause of _"solvent related"_ death, resulting in 55% of known fatal cases.[3]


The paper "Emission of nitrogen dioxide from butane gas heaters and stoves indoors", from the American Journal of Applied Sciences, indicates that nitrogen dioxide, a toxic gas, results from burning Butane gas, and represents a human health hazard from home heaters and stoves.​the above is just a basic example of how butane is bad for you. Its not bad if you clarify the extract your working with till all the butane is out.


Mass Producer:
_ "it is so contaminate free that the color of the oil is golden.  Butane only really extracts cannabinoids and terpenoids." _If this really was the case how come you can clarify the extract directly after the process and get organic matter as a by product? well simple. because its not completely pure. ​_"the fact is that you would need labratory testing to determine any level of impurities left behind from any good Butane."_well you only need a "labratory" (i personally have only heard of a laboratory) if your too blind to see the waste matter with your eyes. its pretty obvious...   i will post pictures of this later today.​_"I will agree that alcohol wheather ISO or everclear will give a slightly larger yield, but this is not really benefical if you are just weighing your product down with contaminates."_again. if your any kind of scientist you can A: either make your own ethyl alcohol that will end up being 99.99-100% pure (AKA ethanol, also called , pure alcohol, grain alcohol, or drinking alcohol) or B: you can get some standard 190-195 proof (95-97.5%) grain alcohol and use that to make your extract easier to handle for moving from container to container while clarifying till its ready for its final packaging.  obviously you will have a slight bit of impurities when all is said and done because the 2.5-5% water/other in the grain alcohol. if you make your own ethyl alcohol you will not have an impurity problem as long as you make sure to cook off all the butane and alcohol. NO NOT USE ISO, EVER. ​_"...but this is not really benefical if you are just weighing your product down with contaminates. I am willing to sacrifice a fraction of my yeild for impeccable quality."_

Composition                                            MAPL Test No. 6
Normal Butane, Minimum L.V.%                 ASTM D-2163             95.50        95.00
Iso-Butane, Maximum L.V.%                                                       4.50          5.00
Pentanes and Heavier, Maximum L.V.%                                        1.00          1.50
Propane, Maximum L.V.% 0.45 0.50so here is the MSDS for "normal butane". looks like the same up to 5% of possible contaminates.​_I surely do have to disagree with you regarding the Carcinogenicity of butane itself. n-Butane in itself is not a human carcinogenic, in fact in low doses it is actually considered non-toxic to humans._so Mr. rocket scientist, inhalation of coal dust or soot (carbon black) in large quantities can be dangerous, irritating lung tissues and causing the congestive lung disease coalworker's pneumoconiosis. now i know your thinking butane isn't combustible into those things. well, when the conditions are not right (because of low temperature, not enough     oxygen, not enough time to react completely) a variety of compounds can be produced. Some     examples are carbon monoxide, carbon (soot), smaller alkanes, as well as smaller alkenes,     ketones, and aldehydes (with which we deal in a later lesson). These chemicals are     commonly referred to as pollutants. in everyday life, you are pretty likely to get some of them. (ever notice the black soot on the side of a bowl because someone didnt know how to use your piece?)​_"The fact is that making BHO correctly is actually cleaner then smoking buds, because you are not extracting the known carcinogens from the buds, just pure cannabinoids and terpenoids,..."_this is about the only thing i agree with you about mass producer. if BHO is made CORRECTLY, aka ALL butane, ALL alcohol and ALL impurities are washed/clarified from it then yes, it is clean. but with the information you have listed on this post i HIGHLY doubt that you know the procedures to get from A-E.​_"...with any fractional impurities (if any even exist) being so small that you need lab testing just to find them."_again... no lab needed just basic deductive logic, some eyes that work and a brain. but there will be impurities always unless you use 99.99% research grade butane and that stuff is very expensive unless you have a buddy that works as a college professor or working at Praxair Inc., Airgas or some other gas company.
last but not least. i think its pretty funny how any of your REAL data as far as science doesn't seem like you knew anything about it. ​_The purity of BHO and some its related products have been tested, with the most famous being budder, invented by the budder King, in BC. Dr. hornby a scientist with a PHd, tested the purity of the budder kings, "real deal budder" and it tested at 99% thc, as buddering adds air, removes terpenes, and converts all cannabinoids to THC-delta 9._
_------
Another famous BHO product invented by soma of soma seeds is Jelly Hash, which is a mixture of 3 parts BHO and 1 part bubble hash. This is my personal favorite, as I have buddered up my BHO by adding add but I am a little worried about the chemical conversion of the cannabinoids, and working with strong acids._its funny how you believe someone just because they put PHd next to their name. the only thing I've seen Dr Hornby's name on are advanced nutrient bottles. you wont find any REAL research papers on the med industry by him involving extraction processes.​7greeneyes:
_"As a sidenote...supercritical means at a temperature and pressure above its thermodynamic critical point. The gas (butane or co2) itself is not a "supercritical" anything. Take Care, bud."
_On a side note... the gas CO2 itself can be supercritical when its in the right environment. any scientist with half of a brain, or maybe even some college kid could make CO2 supercritical. so you got half of that one right. (what supercritical means.)​"_The gas (butane or *co2*) itself is not a "supercritical" anything."._obviously you mean at room temperature, because its a given that CO2 can be supercritical in different conditions. details are good when describing things, especially if your trying to look like a smart ***. And Back To Mass Producer...​_"I would also agrue that BHO, is safer as far as carcinogens then even vaped buds, because if the heating element is heating up too much in your vapourizer then the carcinogens will be realesed in the vapour, while in BHO there is none to start with."
_a Bic burns at 450C (842F), so if your lighting your bowl with a lighter. your getting carcinogens, weather it be from the lighter itself or the byproduct of the extract your smoking. if you use a glass rod you have a lower chance of getting the carcinogens because you are not using a lighter, and the rod cools down quicker to the optimal heat of 156C (314.6F) - 225C (437F). if your using a heating element like the phaedor, so that your sure you wont over cook it and get the contaminates, you should be relatively safe. so the bottom line is if you go over 225C/437F you will burn off the molecules you want to be smoking too quick and all you will get are carcinogens.​_NEXT POST.... ---->>>>>>
_


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## Karma

_"there is still NO IRRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT SMOKING CANNABIS BUD BY ITSELF is not carcinogenic as well...show me the FDA reports that claim 0% chance marijuana is carcinogenic."_First let me say that the FDA will probably not report that. they are already on their way to having THC pharma versions ready for when the gov legalizes it. There are many research papers on the mutations that cannabis smoke causes. the majority of the time mutations = tumors/cancer/degenerate defects. check out this link. one of many on the topic.

http        ://       www      scribd      com            /doc/20958655/null 
(fill in the blanks)

i hope all you that were talking like you were scientist do some research before you talk about some info you dont even fully understand. Maybe a bit of schooling. GG.​"I guess, I just love what I do"
*^^^ Don't let Karma Get Ya Down! ^^^*


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## 7greeneyes

Hick said:
			
		

> Nobody ever listens to me, until I fart..:confused2:...


Love it, guy, you and I have a similiar sick sense of humor. :rofl:  I have a feelin we'd get along well. :ccc:


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## 7greeneyes

Karma said:
			
		

> _"there is still NO IRRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE THAT SMOKING CANNABIS BUD BY ITSELF is not carcinogenic as well...show me the FDA reports that claim 0% chance marijuana is carcinogenic."_First let me say that the FDA will probably not report that. they are already on their way to having THC pharma versions ready for when the gov legalizes it. There are many research papers on the mutations that cannabis smoke causes. the majority of the time mutations = tumors/cancer/degenerate defects. check out this link. one of many on the topic.
> 
> http        ://       www      scribd      com            /doc/20958655/null
> (fill in the blanks)
> 
> i hope all you that were talking like you were scientist do some research before you talk about some info you dont even fully understand. Maybe a bit of schooling. GG.​"I guess, I just love what I do"
> *^^^ Don't let Karma Get Ya Down! ^^^*



Oi Veh!


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## 7greeneyes

Mutt said:
			
		

> People don't do this!!!! If you do use elec. NOT GAS heat unless you wanna fill your kitchen up with fumes and blow yourself up. Just as easy to set out and let evap. just requires a lil thing called patience. I set it outside...once filled my whole garage up with alcohol smell and i wasn't heating it. Just becuase alcohol seems safe but in concentrated fumes it will ignite be enough to flash burn the hell outa ya. IMO Prolly the same thing if you lit a match around Hick after he farted :rofl:
> 
> Green sludge is *NOT* how i want my oil to look.
> 
> Now as far as the CO2 method never seen it. Would need to see some pics. Stick with my Butane and ISO.



Please refer to title of post. and yes, electric. Great googly moogly ppl! lol


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## Karma

So i think i was referring to the title of the post... i guess i could be mistaking...  
"so i was just doing some research for a paper on _*SCFE*_ and came across this thread."
anyways the reason i was explaining about SOXHLET is because we have already been there and done that. Using SCFE is a bit more intresting then it sounds. easy to get your SCF... tricking keeping it at the right temps and pressures without buying expensive equipment that most can not afford. there is plenty of information out there on SCFE, but if i tell you it all... when would you learn anything? you retain the most knowledge on a subject when your driven to learn more and more about it. anyways if your really having that hard of a time 7greeneyes, send me a private msg with your email or some way to contact you and i will point you in the right direction since you seem to be the only one here that even cares about next gen extracts that are *NOT* carcinogenic. 
also here are those pics i said i would post. first 3 are the contaminates from a standard SOXHLET - butane extraction. obviously there is a bit of vegatation. as you can see there are 2 different patterns of the contaminates in the pictures. the one with more contaminates is the first clarification, the picture with less contaminates is the 2rd clarification. depending on the trim/strain/quality level of butane as mentioned in my previous post, you will have to clarify more or less 2-5 times. anyone that thinks im wrong. enjoy your carcinogens. You can Taste/Feel the difference on your lungs, And the bowl does not get covered in Tar, the excess oil just melts down into the bowl and you can actually rinse the bowl and clarify the contents a few times and be back to what you started with... - like 35-55% depending on how proficient you are at smoking oil (even out of a concentrate bowl). the next 3 pics are inbetween clarification 2-3. for us, on that perticular run, 3 clarifications gave us the PERFECT consistency, with no noticeable taste of ANY of the Butane or alcohol. When i say without ANY noticeable taste, i mean it was more smoooth then smoking a bowl of just pure bud hairs (like a fatty bowl of bud hairs). when handling on a slightly chilled day (3-5degrees below normal) or in the evening, stringers would get Almost annoyingly long. its kinda cold currently i will see if i can get a picture of one right now. *****taking pictures*****, and i got some. lets see how they turn out.


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## Karma

here ya are. the bottom left 2 on the post above are the same picture. they stringer was so thin i could barely see in on the picture, so i outlined it and tried to bring it out as much as posibable but even with photoshop and saturation and brightness/contrast, i could only get that much to show.
     -KARMA


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## Karma

no body is disputing what i say? glad the references helped. good luck with all your extractions everyone. remember to msg me if your intrested in information. peace!
-karma


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## Alt Tarego

I have heard that you need expensive equipment to extract using supercritical CO2. What is it? Is there an equipment list? A plan, process or procedure that anyone can point me too... Money is not an issue, time is... a friend of mine is ill and I am trying to help, but I need your help asap...

Thanks all,...


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## i3inary

good collection of information guys.

i would also like to know what equipment is recommended for the co2 supercritical extractions regardless of the costs involved.

has anyone run across any of this type of specific information?


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## DonJones

i3inary,

I hope I misunderstood your comment about "good collection of information guys".

Most of what is in this thread is just plain foolish and irresponsible bickering.

If people are to darn stupid to realize that playing with any highly flammable volatile liquid or flammable gas is DANGEROUS at best then they are too stupid to carry on a conversation with!

Also messing with ANY HIGHLY PRESSURIZED GAS is stupid!  Working with it with the proper precautions, equipment and training is still dangerous, even if it is an inert gas.  Why do you think they are considered palcardable HAZARDOUS MATERIALS? 

Like wise if they are too stupid to realize that acetone, either and isopropyl alcohol are POISONS and that introducing poisons into anything that you intend to ingest into your body is DANGEROUS then they are equally stupid!

The only even nearly safe extraction method that they have mentioned is Ethyl Alcohol -- Everclear being the most well know brand available commercially.  *Even Everclear is potentially dangerous to use during the evaporation stage because even EVERCLEAR will burn just well in an alcohol lamp as any other type of alcohol!*

The reason I say even Everclear isn't totally safe is because thousands of deaths and illnesses occur each year from drinking "food grade ethyl alcohol".

However out of all of the solvents mentioned food grade ethyl alcohol is processed with the intent of being ingested into the human body.  That means that any residue left from not completely evaporating the ethyl alcohol from your hash/honey oil is going to be compounds intended to be ingested into the body.  The other 10% they talk about is pure water vapor that is reabsorbed from the air after the distillate is exposed to the air.  Inf act high quality vodka is pure ethyl alcohol diluted with water, the purer of which gives the least flavor to the vodka.

IF YOU SAFELY COMPLETE THE EXTRACTION AND DISPERSAL OF THE CO2 GAS WITHOUT EITHER EXPLODING THE EQUIPMENT, FREEZE BURNING YOURSELF, OR SUFFOCATING YOUR SELF DUE TO REPLACING THE OXYGEN IN THE AIR WITH CO2, the you probably can ignore any contamination from the CO2 itself but what about the equipment and handling?   Why do you think there are medical grades of both Oxygen and CO2? 

Good smoking.


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