# Breeders ? Hick / Dirty'olSouth, anyone?



## meds4me (Jul 11, 2009)

Trying to understand the diff in F1 or F4 gen's....and whats the real deal anyways < I all ways use reg seeds NOT fem ones due to peeps complaints of hermies>... 
I'm wanting to invest more into seed stock and need to know what ??? Please help....


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jul 11, 2009)

I am not a "breeder", but from what I understand an F1 is a "true cross".  Say you mate a male White Widow and a female Blueberry.  The seeds they produce would be known as F1 seeds.  F1 seeds are always the most desirable generation seeds because they display more variable characteristics....now I could be wrong about this part.....but I believe an F2 would be if you took two seeds produced by that blueberry and white widow, and mated them, producing an F2, mating future generations produces F3, F4, etc.  Doing this can stabilize certain characteristics (along with back-breeding), but it can also cause the degredation of other characteristics.  Say you mate your blueberry and white widow, and you produce F1 seeds.  Then you breed these seeds BACK with the same male white widow....I am not sure what this would create but I believe it is called an S1...I'm just guessing at that though.


----------



## meds4me (Jul 11, 2009)

THANKYOU....was trying to make sense of this and was a bit confused. I was looking at it the other way round. Now I know which ones I want when i'm chasing beans


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jul 11, 2009)

dont take my word for it, im not positive about anything other than what I told you about F1 and F2's.  I'm not so sure about the S1 labeling.


----------



## Hick (Jul 11, 2009)

NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer said:
			
		

> dont take my word for it, im not positive about anything other than what I told you about F1 and F2's.  I'm not so sure about the S1 labeling.



great 'abridged' explanation nycd  but you missed the S1 definition. "I" believe S1 is "selfed" or a sexual reversed or hermie plant, "self" pollinated itself or clone of itself.:hubba:



> HYBRID
> By crossing two not related plants you will create a hybrid. These newly created plants are called F1. If the F1 plants are backcrossed to the mother then their offspring often will be called F2. Also F1 crossings between brothers and sisters are called F2 and sometimes even crossings between F1 plants of different lines are called F2. I presume however that, in most cases when breeders are talking about a F6, they mean by this that the plant was backcrossed for 6 generations, this to reinforce the properties of the mother. But be aware, this plant will probably not be stable. Even not if it is a F20. What you best can do is to select the plants that you like the most and use their clones for growing and blooming.
> THE STRENGTH OF THE HYBRID (HYBRID VIGOR)
> With "HYBRID VIGOR" is meant something like the strength of the hybrid. This is however only the case with a crossing of two stable plant lines (the plant is then on important properties homozygous and therefore true breeding). The F1 plants that you produce in this way will be all identical and very strong. Because of this, an enormous improvement on certain characteristics can arise. So it can be for example that these F1 plants grow much more rapidly or produce bigger buds then their parents. Another advantage of this F1 is that all plants will be identical. Selection of the best plants is of course not needed anymore. The strength of the hybrid will however decrease if you go on with breeding. A F2 is therefore qualitatively lesser then the F1. This because of the recessive alleles that nicely hided in the F1 and can come forward in the F2. Furthermore the offspring of F1 plants will no longer be identical.
> ...


hXXp://www.snow-white.nl/engeland/h31BREEDING.htm


----------



## ShecallshimThor (Jul 11, 2009)

as far as i know
f-1 show a characteristics of both parents
f-2 have the most variation. this is where you can find your killer phenoms if you have a big enough test numbers
not sure what happens after that exept you can start picking your special lady and breeding her agian untill all your babies show the same characteristics then its considered stable
or read up on backcrossing and it helps getting the special girl more


----------



## nvthis (Jul 12, 2009)

the best favor you can do for yourself is make sure you start with stable lines.


----------



## meds4me (Jul 13, 2009)

THANKS Everyone....been in tail spin llike a dog .....twirling around , yet not gettin anywhere. "causer once you know , then you know !


----------



## NYC_Diesel x Jack_Herer (Jul 13, 2009)

When I made my first seed order, I got six 10-packs.  I decided to germ 4 seeds of 4 different strains (16 total) on the first run and see what females I got to use for mothers.  I did not want to use all of my seeds so that I could keep backups just in case.....this was dumb.   
  What I should have done was germed ALL TEN of the seeds of one or two of the strains.  This would have given me greater genetic diversity to select mothers from, and then I could have added strains down the line as I was able.  One of the strains I germed 4 seeds of yielded 3 females.  I realized my mistake when I saw how differently all three of these females finished (These were all Jack Herer F1's).  The genetic diversity was such that one had WAY too much veg to bud growth, one had great bud formation but not too many trichs and took 10 days longer to finish, and the third was much better....But it still may have not been the best possible female out of all ten seeds.  The strain description on Sensi even says that the lineage rests on the cusp of half indica half sativa, and there is a LOT of different dominance expression of these two types in individual females that I have seen.
  The real trick to good breeding it seems, is having a large field of potential breeding stock to choose from.  I was really surprised at the amount of genetic diversity inside a single strain.  I grew a Jack Herer that looked like crap and one that made my mouth drool in the same conditions from the same pack of seeds and in the same medium.  
  I also made the mistake of thinking one strain sucked when it was really good.  I germed 4 seeds of ed rosenthal superbud, and only 2 survived the germ, one showed female.  It was amwful.  The plant finished looking like crap.  I thought to myself, well this strain sucks.  Then I noticed how different my 3 herer females were and realized I may of just had a rogue bad female.  I germed the rest of the superbud seeds and found one I absolutely love.


----------



## Hick (Jul 13, 2009)

nnyc'... there in lies the _adventure/excitement_ of seeds .. You can never tell or know what seed might yield that "Holy Grail" pheno'... 
and  agree 100% with your breeding analogy. Not many (if ANY) of us "self providers" have  the facility or the  time and patience to grow out hundreds of both male and female for selection. Exactly why I call them "_seed makers"_ and not _Breeders_..


----------



## leafminer (Aug 2, 2009)

S1 is not back breeding, actually, it is the 'sibling 1' generation. I.E, if I have an F1 set and I produce seed from it, this is an F2 or S1. Its seed would be S2, and so on. As I understand it. Of course in nature so many plants are exchanging genes that their genotype becomes stable as a strain. In private breeding this is not really possible unless you have a 10 acre greenhouse somewhere safe, haha. So, for instance, in the description of "Black Domina" we find that according to the breeder's own description, the cultivator should look for a particular phenotype and use that one as the mom. Which might give you a clue as to my intended winter grow!


----------



## Hick (Aug 2, 2009)

I've still only heard "s1" referred to as a "selfed" (1) first generation. 


> S1, S2, S3... Symbols for designating first, second, third, etc. selfed generations from an ancestral plant (S0).


----------



## meds4me (Aug 3, 2009)

Thanks HicKs and LeafMiner....I now know what to look for in an un-confused state of confusion...lol 
actually i'm about to order some whiteberry and understand what i'm searching for....Thanks again Guys !


----------



## astrobud (Aug 3, 2009)




----------



## Terminal Head Clearance (Aug 3, 2009)

And thats just to start. 

If I would write a book right now about what I know about breeding it would be.

AA x BB = P1 rocks Parent stock. Neither parent is clearly related to the other.  

you should have uniform baby seedlings .. stable with male and female mix and vigorous growth. theses are F1s. 

and seeds from these male and female plants are F1s and will be random.
you mix F1 x F1 it will be random equals random so all seeds not AA x BB are F1's ..

backcrossing self is another story.

Ok thats chapter two or something I need to get another beer.


----------



## Mutt (Aug 4, 2009)

> Exactly why I call them "_seed makers"_ and not _Breeders_..



I'm noticing more and more of the indoor "breeders" will make a cross, name it...back cross it...then name it agin selling both batches as a new strain when all it was was an F1 hybrid cross.  Then put a 10 buck a bean price on it  or 15 bucks on the Bxd one. Nuts i tell ya...even seen one seed bank talk about this "new" type of MJ it will flower pollenate itself and will have a new garden for next year....thats a flippin hermie but trying to market that it is self sustaining WTH!! It was some bank i stumbled into online..needless to say i got the hell outa there 

But people like Soma and others that have the room to have 3-4 males pollenate a female obtain more phenos and inbreed down outa few hundred choices is true breeding IMO. Its all about wide variety of phenos when trying to find that new strain IMO. not just takeing two known good parents crossing them and selling em off. Seed bank bizz is sketchy at best.

Good thread people


----------



## The New Girl (Aug 4, 2009)

Each plant is going to have dominant and recessive genes. Breeders try to breed out the recessive genes that make for a stable plant of desirable traits. If dad is Aa but more likely in a hybrid it;s Aa, BB, CC, Dd and so on, and mom is a combo as well, you get offspring with a ton of differences. This is where a breeder crosses and back crosses to stablize a strain. But for simplicity I found this info on Mendel, the father of genetics! Look at photos for better understanding.  

While Mendel's research was with plants, the basic underlying principles of heredity  that he discovered also apply to people and other animals because the mechanisms of heredity are essentially the same for all complex life forms.

Through the selective cross-breeding of common pea plants (Pisum sativum) over many generations, Mendel discovered that certain traits show up in offspring without any blending of parent characteristics.  For instance, the pea flowers are either purple or white--intermediate colors do not appear in the offspring of cross-pollinated pea plants.  Mendel observed seven traits that are easily recognized and apparently only occur in one of two forms:

1.  flower color is purple or white    
2. flower position is axil or terminal   
3. stem length is long or short  
4. seed shape is round or wrinkled   
5.seed color is yellow or green 
6. pod shape is inflated or constricted 
7. pod color is yellow or green 

This observation that these traits do not show up in offspring plants with intermediate forms was critically important because the leading theory in biology at the time was that inherited traits blend from generation to generation.  Most of the leading scientists in the 19th century accepted this "blending theory."  Charles Darwin proposed another equally wrong theory known as "pangenesis" .  This held that hereditary "particles" in our bodies are affected by the things we do during our lifetime.  These modified particles were thought to migrate via blood to the reproductive cells and subsequently could be inherited by the next generation.  This was essentially a variation of Lamarck's incorrect idea of the "inheritance of acquired characteristics."

Mendel picked common garden pea plants for the focus of his research because they can be grown easily in large numbers and their reproduction can be manipulated.  Pea plants have both male and female reproductive organs.  As a result, they can either self-pollinate themselves or cross-pollinate with another plant.  In his experiments, Mendel was able to selectively cross-pollinate purebred  plants with particular traits and observe the outcome over many generations.  This was the basis for his conclusions about the nature of genetic inheritance.

In cross-pollinating plants that either produce yellow or green pea seeds exclusively, Mendel found that the first offspring generation (f1) always has yellow seeds.   However, the following generation (f2) consistently has a 3:1 ratio of yellow to green.



This 3:1 ratio occurs in later generations as well.   Mendel realized that this was the key to understanding the basic mechanisms of inheritance.



He came to three important conclusions from these experimental results:

1.   that the inheritance of each trait is determined by "units" or "factors" that are passed on to descendents unchanged      (these units are now called genes ) 
2. that an individual inherits one such unit from each parent for each trait 
3. that a trait may not show up in an individual but can still be passed on to the next generation. 

It is important to realize that, in this experiment, the starting parent plants were homozygous  for pea seed color.  That is to say, they each had two identical forms (or alleles ) of the gene for this trait--2 yellows or 2 greens.  The plants in the f1 generation were all heterozygous .   In other words, they each had inherited two different alleles--one from each parent plant.  It becomes clearer when we look at the actual genetic makeup, or genotype , of the pea plants instead of only the phenotype , or observable physical characteristics.



Note that each of the f1 generation plants (shown above) inherited a Y allele from one parent and a G allele from the other.  When the f1 plants breed, each has an equal chance of passing on either Y or G alleles to each offspring.

With all of the seven pea plant traits that Mendel examined, one form appeared dominant over the other.  Which is to say, it masked the presence of the other allele.  For example, when the genotype for pea seed color is YG (heterozygous), the phenotype is yellow.  However, the dominant yellow allele does not alter the recessive green one in any way.   Both alleles can be passed on to the next generation unchanged.

Mendel's observations from these experiments can be summarized in two principles:

1.   the principle of segregation 
2. the principle of independent assortment 

According to the principle of segregation, for any particular trait, the pair of alleles of each parent separate and only one allele passes from each parent on to an offspring.  Which allele in a parent's pair of alleles is inherited is a matter of chance.  We now know that this segregation of alleles occurs during the process of sex cell formation (i.e., meiosis ).



Segregation of alleles in the production of sex cells


According to the principle of independent assortment, different pairs of alleles are passed to offspring independently of each other.  The result is that new combinations of genes present in neither parent are possible.  For example, a pea plant's inheritance of the ability to produce purple flowers instead of white ones does not make it more likely that it will also inherit the ability to produce yellow pea seeds in contrast to green ones.  Likewise, the principle of independent assortment explains why the human inheritance of a particular eye color does not increase or decrease the likelihood of having 6 fingers on each hand.  Today, we know this is due to the fact that the genes for independently assorted traits are located on different chromosomes .

These two principles of inheritance, along with the understanding of unit inheritance and dominance, were the beginnings of our modern science of genetics.  However, Mendel did not realize that there are exceptions to these rules.  Some of these exceptions will be explored in the third section of this tutorial and in the Synthetic Theory of Evolution tutorial.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

NOTE:  Some biologists refer to Mendel's "principles" as "laws".


hxxp://anthro.palomar.edu/mendel/mendel_1.htm

PS another look at it:
hxxp://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookgenintro.html


----------



## meds4me (Aug 4, 2009)

AWESOME POST !...I love reading this stuff. Must be the "nerd" in me....lol


----------



## The New Girl (Aug 5, 2009)

Hey, here's the follow-up, but better to go here and see the charts better...
hxxp://anthro.palomar.edu/synthetic/synth_8.htm

Non-Random Mating


In all human populations, people usually select mates non-randomly for traits that are easily observable.  Cultural values and social rules primarily guide mate selection.  Most commonly, mating is with similar people in respect to traits such as skin color, stature, and personality.  Animal breeders do essentially the same thing when they intentionally try to improve varieties or create new ones by carefully making sure that mating is not random.  When they select mates for their animals based on desired traits, farmers hope to increase the frequency of those traits in future generations.  In so far as the discriminated traits are genetically inherited, evolution is usually a consequence.  However, the results are not always what farmers expect.  The reasons why will be explained shortly.  

Even without the intervention of farmers, most animals select mates carefully--they do not mate randomly.  Charles Darwin noted this fact in his 1871 book Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex.  He suggested that mate selection is a powerful force of evolution similar in its effect to natural selection.  This idea was widely rejected in Darwin's time, but later research showed that he was correct.

  Why Animals Mate Non-randomly: Tale of the Peacock
        video clip from PBS 2001 series Evolution
        requires RealPlayer to view         (length = 4 mins, 2 secs) 

In order to understand the effect of non-random mating patterns, it is useful to first examine the results of random mating.  As Hardy and Weinberg demonstrated in the early 20th century, the gene pool of a population that is mating randomly and is not subject to any other evolutionary process will not change--it will remain in equilibrium.  If mating is entirely random, there will be nine possible mating patterns for a trait that is controlled by two alleles (A and a).

AA  X  AA  Aa  X  AA  aa  X  AA 
AA  X  Aa  Aa  X  Aa  aa  X  Aa 
AA  X  aa  Aa  X  aa  aa  X  aa 

In a population which has 50% of each of these two alleles, the expected offspring genotype frequencies with random mating will be 25% homozygous dominant (AA), 25% homozygous recessive (aa), and 50% heterozygous (Aa), as shown in the table below.  They will remain in this ratio every generation that random mating continues and no other evolutionary mechanism is operating.

  Random Mating 
Possible parent
mating patterns Expected offspring genotypes   
AA Aa aa 
AA   X   AA
 4

AA   X   Aa 2 2   
AA   X   aa    4   
 Aa   X   AA  2 2   
 Aa   X   Aa  1 2 1 
 Aa   X   aa    2 2 
  aa   X   AA 
   4

  aa   X   Aa    2 2 
  aa   X   aa      4 
Total 9
( 25% ) 18
( 50% )
 9
( 25% )

   The number of children
are what would be
expected by chance
if each mating pair has
4 children.
You can work this out
yourself by creating a
Punnett Square for
each set of parents.



Positive Assortative Mating

The most common non-random mating pattern among humans is one in which individuals mate with others who are like themselves phenotypically for selected traits.  This is referred to as positive assortative mating .  The term "assortative" refers to classifying and selecting characteristics.  An example of positive assortative selection would be tall slender people mating only with tall slender people.  Taken to the extreme, positive assortative mating results in only three possible mating patterns with respect to genotypes for traits that are controlled by two autosomal alleles--homozygous dominant with homozygous dominant (AA  X  AA), heterozygous with heterozygous (Aa  X  Aa), and homozygous recessive with homozygous recessive (aa  X  aa).

The net effect of positive assortative mating is a progressive increase in the number of homozygous genotypes (AA and aa) and a corresponding decrease in the number of heterozygous (Aa) ones in a population, as shown in the table below.  Each generation that there is positive assortative mating, this polarizing trend will continue in the population.

Positive Assortative Mating 
Possible parent
mating patterns Expected offspring genotypes   
AA Aa aa 
AA   X   AA
 4

 Aa   X   Aa   1 2 1 
  aa   X   aa        4 
Total 5
( 42% ) 2
( 17% )
 5
( 42% )



Negative Assortative Mating

The least common non-random mating pattern among humans is one in which people only select mates who are phenotypically different from themselves for selective traits.  This is referred to as negative assortative mating .  It would occur, for instance, if people who have the Rh negative blood type only mate with those who are Rh positive.

In terms of genotypes, there are six possible negative assortative mating patterns for traits that are controlled by two autosomal alleles, as shown in the table below.  The net effect is a progressive increase in the frequency of heterozygous genotypes (Aa) and a corresponding decrease in homozygous (AA and aa) ones in a population.  In other words, negative assortative mating has the opposite effect as positive assortative mating.

Negative Assortative Mating 
Possible parent
mating patterns Expected offspring genotypes   
AA Aa aa 
AA   X   Aa 2 2   
AA   X   aa    4   
 Aa   X   AA  2 2   
 Aa   X   aa    2 2 
  aa   X   AA 
   4

  aa   X   Aa    2 2 
Total 4
( 17% ) 16
( 67% )
 4
( 17% )



Evolutionary Consequences of Non-random Mating

Like recombination, non-random mating can act as an ancillary process for natural selection to cause evolution to occur.  Any departure from random mating upsets the equilibrium distribution of genotypes in a population.  This will occur whether mate selection is positive or negative assortative.  A single generation of random mating will restore genetic equilibrium if no other evolutionary mechanism is operating on the population.  However, this does not result in a return to the distribution of population genotypes that existed prior to the period of non-random mating.  A comparison of the 2nd and 5th generations in the table below illustrates this fact.

Effects of non-random mating on a populations gene pool 
Generation Parent mating pattern Offspring genotype frequencies Effect on
genotype
frequencies 
AA Aa aa 
1 random 50% 30% 20% equilibrium 
2 random 50% 30% 20% equilibrium 
3 negative assortative 45% 40% 15% change 
4 negative assortative 40% 50% 10% change 
5 random 40% 50% 10% equilibrium 
6 random 40% 50% 10% equilibrium 
7 positive assortative 43% 45% 12% change 
8 positive assortative 48% 34% 18% change 


NOTE: genotype frequencies in an actual population may differ somewhat from those in
this table, but the direction of change from generation to generation will be the same. 

Plant and animal breeders usually employ controlled positive assortative mating to increase the frequency of desirable traits and to reduce genetic variation in a population.  In effect, they try to guide the direction of evolution by preventing some individuals from mating and encouraging others to do so.  By doing this, farmers, in a sense are acting in the place of nature in selecting winners and losers in the competition for survival.  This method has been used to develop purebred varieties of laboratory mice, dogs, horses, and farm animals.  The amount of time it takes for this process can be much shorter than one might imagine.  If brothers and sisters are mated together every generation, it will only take 20 generations for all individuals in a family line to share 98+% of the same allelesthey essentially will be clones, and breeding results will be close to those resulting from self-fertilization.  Commercially sold laboratory research mice have been mated brother to sister for 50-100 generations or more.  The downside of this practice is that positive assortative mating results in an increase in homozygosity of harmful alleles if they are present in the gene pool.  The high frequency of hip dysplasia , epilepsy , and immune-system malfunctions in some dog varieties are primarily a result of inbreeding.  The reduction in viability and subsequent loss of reproductive potential of purebred varieties has been referred to as inbreeding depression.  In contrast, animals that have been crossbred with mates from very different genetic lines are more likely to have lower frequencies of homozygous recessive conditions.  Subsequently, they are liable to be more viable.  This phenomenon has been referred to as hybrid vigor or heterosis .

Human mating rarely is as consistently positive assortative as is the case with purebred domesticated animals.  As a consequence, inbreeding depression is rarely a problem except for some reproductively isolated small societies and subcultures.  The Old Order Amish  are an example.  This relatively small population centered in Pennsylvania and Ohio has been self-isolated by their religious beliefs and lifestyle for nearly three centuries.  They mostly select mates from within their own communities, which results in positive assortative effects on their gene pool.  The Amish population has a comparatively high frequency of Ellis-van Creveld syndrome , which is a genetically inherited disorder characterized by dwarfism, extra fingers, and malformations of the arms, wrists, and heart.  The majority of the known cases in the world of this rare syndrome have been found among the Amish, and 7% of them carry the responsible recessive autosomal allele.


----------

