# Bag Seed Babies!



## AlkaloidContent (Jun 14, 2011)

Hello Everyone!

Let me be the first to welcome you to my grow log. This will be my first log posted online. I have a quick introduction in the proper board for that purpose, but basically this isnt my first grow. I have had a few successful grows both indoors and out. However I would like to get a little more in depth with my grows and dwell into more important topics such as PH, nutrient ratios, etc. As opposed to germinate, sow (in pre nuted soil) and grow. With that said this isn't going to be me just posting pics of dying plants asking why I shouldnt water them every 10 mins. I understand many of the concepts behind this and dont wish to disregard the pro advice whilst offering what I can to the community. 

* So you will see that my setup will not include all I need to grow through harvest YET. Understand in this economy there is no reason to purchase things like $20 carbon filters for your exhaust until the ladies begin to stink, for example.

*GROW ROOM:*
I have decided to go with a grow room inside of a closet to allow for extra security, light blockage, and merely to contain the "environment" from the rest of the space. 

*DIMENSIONS: 2'D x 3'W x 5'H. *
So basically Im looking at about 12 sq ft of growing space. 2 feet back times 3 feet across times 2 foot high plants(end of flowering) Considering if allow you them to grow up to around 7-8 inches and then flower. They should shoot to around 2 ft by the time they are done. So out of the 5 ft in height I have I only need to utilize 2 feet of vertical grow space with lighting. Which seems it would allow for plenty of space for wires, materials etc. On that note....

*LIGHTING: *
I have decided to go with CFL lighting, being that the grow room (per se) will not only be enclosed once but twice being that it is in a closet. Heat will be the biggest issue. With CFLs heat is kept to the minimum in ratio to light output. CFLs only put out high intensity light at close distances so its imperative to keep them within inches to the plants.

*ENVIRONMENT:*
I will get a large sheet of one-side mylar 1/2" thick foam board. Velcro that up against the closet walls to create the room. In this large closet there is a shelving unit in the middle so basically you open up the double doors, shelves right in the middle, then two areas to the sides with the dimensions listed above. However on the left hand side the shelf is down low with the hanger rail. The right side I use for clothing as the shelf and rail is alot higher. So the areas are basically boxed in with only the one corner facing out of the closet being opened. So Ill put the cut-to-size board pieces, mylar side out up against the walls and bring them to a point where that corner is opened up, BAM you have your self four walls.

Now the roof will be the same material, however it will have a circular cut out about 10" wide feeding into a DIY carbon scrubber eventually. For now I will most likely just set a mylar piece on top of the room and let just feed hot air out through a dryer tube, to keep trace light out, but still fedd out the hot air, until I set up the carbon scrubber. Which will simply be the outpiece feeding thru aluminum screening with a carbon filter wrapped over that and a duct cap on the other end. As far as intake that will be at the bottom where the corners meet behind the closet doors. It will simply be a PVC elbow, sprayed black on the inside, wrapping from the side of the room into one of the shelves where no light can bounce through just in case. I will have a rather strong exhaust fan but no intake so that the room will have a negative pressure to it and exhaust exactly how much it intakes from the bottom.

I will have a fan inside blowing through the plants to give even more air circulation. I plan to build a CO2 generator and allow it to leak slowly into the room. I open the closet doors during the light cycle just to freshen the closet so I wont worry about CO2 build up as it should never reach high concentrations and the closet is practically sealed off with winterproof strip as it is.

The fans will be controlled by thermostat plug outlet. It simply kicks on and off based on environmental temps. The one I am getting will kick the fan on when the temp reaches 78 degrees. It also is made to kick something on if temps reach below 72. Unless I am mistaking. However it will be setup so that the final point of control will be that switch for the fan so when temps get too high most likely humidity is too and the exhaust will kick on bringing in fresh air.

In the end I plan to have a mix of warm 2700K CFLs and cool 6500K CFLs.I would like to post the whole wattage, lumen per sq ft math I figured up. However I did it on paper and do not have it to reference. It works out to about 3,000 to 5,000 total lumens per sq foot needed. 

I will have three hoods with outlet extensions, going to a Y adapter feeding two Y adapters. So 4 bulbs per hood most likely 2 cools and 2 warms, and the rest of the bulbs will be placed lower in the canopy to allow much needed light the whole way up the plants, also mixed cools and warms throughout.

* I would like to go ahead an note that I will not have all these lights up all at once and only add lights as they are needed to spread over a larger area during growth. I also will only be using cools during veg and will not begin to add the warms until later in the grow as we make our way towards flowering. Once into flowering I then want a 50/50 maybe even 60/40 or 70/30 ratio cools being more dominant in veg. warms dominant in flowering. I never thought just using one spectrum or the other cut it. Naturally it isnt like that so why allow it to be enough. 

*NUTRIENTS:* As of right now I am using blood meal sprinkled lightly (less than 1/4 tsp in a 10" pot, holding 5 babies. So far I have only watered once with tap water and that will change since the system has a water softener and I do not want sodium buildup. So eventually distilled, but anyways I sprayed them and used the rest of the water to pour into the pot, therefore beginning the release of the nitrogen from the bloodmeal. They are only about a week old and dont NEED Nitrogen since the two rounded leaves supply the plants with it in the first couple weeks, but they are in re used soil until this weekend that was flushed with hot water so Im sure they were glad to get something. However, I do not like to simply put anything in my veg soil, and I use organic soil, with less then 1/10 of a percent nute value of any nute, mixed with perlite and things for air and water balance. Once they grow up a little bigger I will feed with concentrations of blood meal brewed into a tea. For other nutrients I will likely go with a fish emulsion or the like just so they do get all they want. Even though I will focus on the main nutrients needed with foods high in said nutrients. I want to go as organic as possible not because it makes any large difference or that one shouldn't use chemicals (all nutrients are sourced from the same elements) so really there is no difference between chemicals and organics. Its just chemicals are meant to be easily absorbed where as organics must interact with micororganisms in the soil. Simply put I would rather my babies eat naturally instead of being fed through an IV. Really its simply to make a smoother cleaner better tasting/looking smoke. I mean if were going for medicine here might as well treat it as a medicine and make it as pure as possible.

Now for flowering I will be using the same type of soil but will go ahead and add bone meal to the soil so the plant has its needed Phosphorous food throughout the flowering cycle. Since bonemeal is not readily dissolved in water and other organic sources are not readily available in stores its the best option. Also will be feeding with organic plant food for other needed nutrients throughout the grow. Flushing with nothing but distilled water in the last couple weeks.

*Now that we got through future-ness of the setup let me tell you where we stand as of now.*

As I stated above for those who are still awake. I currently have 5 babies in a 10" pot in the closet. It is simply sitting on a shelf unit with one light hood holding 2 23W 6500K Daylight CFL. I have a meter that reads lumens, moisture, and PH. All analog. So I use that and some common sense in my waterings. This early in the grow there isnt much to say. They are coming along okay. They do show some early signs of slight nute issues but nothing too drastic. So far they are only about 1 week old. They arent booming along yet. I have to give them all more room so I will be buying 6 - 10" or so size pots and put two babies in each one. My mother-in-law is also growing but on her 2nd floor outside deck. Great idea for outdoor growth but she doesnt quite have the green thumb and her babies while bigger than mine since they are older they are showing signs of...well...unhappiness is all I can say. She has about 6 of her own so I am going to adopt them and get em inside. With 6 pots holding a grand total of 2 plants each I can get em back where thet need to be with some fresh soil, PH balanced feeding on a set schedule, and proper light timing. Nurse em back and then hopefully out of 12 total plants getting a few ladies, ripping and hashing the males, and finishing off the girls. Hopefully it will work out that all the females end up in their own pots. No matter what, I plan to sex and turn to flowering by the time they are about 7-8 inches. So no matter what I do not have to worry about space issues.

I apologize for not having picutres yet. I plan to go get the rest of the rooms materials this weekend and once everything is set up, Ill get some shots of the babies in their newest of homes.

Thanks for stopping by! Talk to ya soon!


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## Locked (Jun 14, 2011)

I will be honest I skimmed through a lot of that because it is late and I am baked....  but is see a cpl potential problems. 

You want one plant per container.
Your actual square footage of your grow space is 6 feet. We don't count height unless we are trying to figure out what size inline fan we need for ventilation. This means you will need 18,000 lumens for the vegatative part of the grow and 30,000 lumens for flower. Those are the minimum.

Other thing was your plan to keep them to two feet by the end of the grow. 24 inches is tough with most strains...maybe a super short Indica or autos.
It will take a bit of LST. Are you familiar with it? Some topping will most likely be needed as well as some bondage.

What about exchanging the air? You need more then just fans blowing. An inline fan is usually used to pull the air from the grow space and passive intakes down low provide the fresh cooler air.

Oh and this might pissoff a few cfl growers but the truth is cfl's run hotter then an HPS and cost more in electric to run if you do the math. Not knocking them if that is what you want or have tomgrow with just spreading the truth.

You are also going to need a real ph meter. You can go with the strips but I recommend a ph meter. The strips are a PITA to read sometimes and are not very accurate for what we do. The dual prong meter you are talking about having with the three readings is a piece of crap for reading ph...we don't check the ph of the soil. We check the water and feed before they go into the soil. Maybe occasionally you will need to check the runoff of the soil but even that I steer clear of. Everything that goes into my soil is ph'd to 6.5. 

Oh and CO2 needs to be used in a sealed grow space, at a ppm of 1200 I believe....it needs to be regulated. Homemade CO2 generators don't clear those hurdles as far as I know.

Welcome to MP....all of that is just my opinion. You may choose to do with it what you like.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 14, 2011)

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> I will be honest I skimmed through a lot of that because it is late and I am baked.... but is see a cpl potential problems.
> 
> You want one plant per container.
> Your actual square footage of your grow space is 6 feet. We don't count height unless we are trying to figure out what size inline fan we need for ventilation. This means you will need 18,000 lumens for the vegatative part of the grow and 30,000 lumens for flower. Those are the minimum.
> ...


 

Well as far as the spacing concern I just figured they will grow into 2 sq ft up so might as well light that area too, but not completely like the canopy which needs covered.

And what you state about the height is understandable, but yes topping or perhaps some training can be used if needed, bet yet I think you mean short Sativas. Indicas are natures giant of cannbis. TREES were talkin! TREES. However taken as constructive criticism one in the same. I would like 2 ft height, which is being done all over in indoor grows, but remember I have a total of 5 ft up to use, so 2 feet tops is no where near the limit.

As far as air exchange I think you may have skimmed over that part. I do mention an air intake, a fan powered exhaust eventually feeding to a carbon scrubber at the top, all setup on a thermostat to kick them on when temps hit a no no spot, intake at the very bottom filtered with hepa filter to keep out unwanteds. Plus the fan inside for air movement simulating wind, making stalks stronger.

About the CFLs I hear you the power, output, heat and all other factors involved, HID lighting is God in a bulb, however my setup is a box within a closet, that most of the time will be shut. So the air inside the closet must be able to hold for at least the time Im at work that overlaps with its light cycle, until I get home and open up the closet doors. The dark cycle the air temp should be absolutely wonderful. With CFLs it simply makes sense to keep the lighting to an indoor disaster that can happen as opposed to an outdoor light gone wild inside. Plus I like to purchase all my materials locally with cash. I refuse to order grow supplies online, you never know where your information goes. The only HID fixtures I can get ar 75W and they cant interchange HPS/MH. So although I actually agree with you. We have to consider all factors. This leads me to CFL.

About the meter I hear you but I like to form my own opinions. I will however focus more on my feed and watering and being able to measure these, even though the meter I have can measure PH of liquids. I will just have to test it with something a little more professional.

And really with the CO2 system I just want to give it some good tokes of CO2 throughout the day. Honestly I am pretty sure this maybe one of those dreams I dont live out. Cuz I hear you about the completely sealed room (which I wont quite have) and from what I understand simply breathing on your plants provides them with happy amounts of CO2. We'll see what I end up doing I guess.

I appreciate you being the first to comment buddy, just know that I dont intend to respond argumentatively. Thank you for your input I actually am re-thinking a few things.


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## Ruffy (Jun 15, 2011)

im a mind reader & if THG sees this, she will say; you dont need co2, just feed it fresh air, good exhaust in & out.  i like the way she thinks


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

Ruffy said:
			
		

> im a mind reader & if THG sees this, she will say; you dont need co2, just feed it fresh air, good exhaust in & out. i like the way she thinks


 

HAHA! Yeah Im already getting alot of feedback and you guys havent even seen the babies yet!

But hey were all fighting the same war on human right here true?

But yea the CO2 IDK I would like to give em something they will get plenty of fresh air, plenty plenty plenty. But hey I mean we all get plenty of oxygen but I could swear by it when I take in a nice breath of you know what, it really makes my day  lol. So I mean why not even just shoot em with a paintball gun or something (no paintballs of course) when the fans are off a couple times a day when I check on em.

Kinda funny "Hey babies!" BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG


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## nouvellechef (Jun 15, 2011)

Most of what I would say, Hamster already said and I said a few things in the other thread. I think you have the spunk to grow some great herb. But really, its critical you understand the full cycle of MJ to maximize its potential. Alot of time and effort goes into your girls. So here are a few of my tips. For right now, I will leave the CFL thing alone.

1: Fans on your plants need to run 24/7

2: Your exhaust fan should run 24/7, even in the dark cycle

3: Dont bother with DIY CO2

4: Start with great genetics

5: Wheres your pest regime?

6: Blood meal is horrible choice. I used to use it. 

7: Best advice is buy some bottled nutrients that cover all the bases

8: Or if you want, you can try organic cultivation, if you can get the items needed

9: Too stoned to think of anything else. 

Will check back in on ya.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> Most of what I would say, Hamster already said and I said a few things in the other thread. I think you have the spunk to grow some great herb. But really, its critical you understand the full cycle of MJ to maximize its potential. Alot of time and effort goes into your girls. So here are a few of my tips. For right now, I will leave the CFL thing alone.
> 
> 1: Fans on your plants need to run 24/7
> 
> ...


 

Okay duly noted. I dont see why leaving fan on 24/7 is a bad idea. Deff keeps the air fresh.

CO2 I dont think I will worry about doesnt seem the extra work really makes a huge diff. It really doesnt have anything to do with flowering just veg (which leads to flower, but still)

The bag I got these seeds from was some real good, wanna say a comfy mix of Indica/Sativa. Really icy, nice light whitish green bud. Good ish Deff not your usuall outdoor tree branches.

I hear ya about bloodmeal I think what people dont get is it is not an instant feed, it does need a good microenvironment to get the nitrogen plant ready, so I think people mis use its potentail alot. Trust me I will deff get some liquid feed that covers bases, but for the main two N and P I want some extra oomph. SO maybe a bloodmeal tea, that sat for a few days splashed with some H2O2 to unflatten it, and feed. For the bone meal just get it in the soil the you flower in down in the pot so the plants really get it when they are comfortable into flowering and will use it. IDK still checking out my options.

sittin here thinkin the same thing :ccc:


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## nouvellechef (Jun 15, 2011)

AlkaloidContent said:
			
		

> Okay duly noted. I dont see why leaving fan on 24/7 is a bad idea. Deff keeps the air fresh.
> 
> CO2 I dont think I will worry about doesnt seem the extra work really makes a huge diff. It really doesnt have anything to do with flowering just veg (which leads to flower, but still)
> 
> ...



I like you 

1: CO2 has huge advantages in flower. I could show you pics of 3lb indoor trees I have grown in 27gal tubs. 

2: Soybean meal is leaps and bounds better than bloodmeal. I have been running full organic for about 2 years now. Seen side by side. But the thing you must know that many new growers get wrong. Is its sooooo much more than just N and P. Once you get to the point of growing a plant for 17 weeks without a defiency, you will fully understand what this MJ girl can suck outta nature.

3: Summer is here. You really should be thinking, mite preventative.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> I like you
> 
> 1: CO2 has huge advantages in flower. I could show you pics of 3lb indoor trees I have grown in 27gal tubs.
> 
> ...


 

You know what your right I completely left out pest n disease. Recomendations?

Yea I mean I really want to find a good feed that supplies Nitro all the way down to Zinc Copper Boron, Im sure my local tap water has amounts of these minerals Ill have to get a water analysis sheet from my local city water dept.
Really its more or less like this for feed. Always give it the main feed I have. Which just may be Soybean Meal now. So they get the whole list of elements. But still give em a kick in certain stages of growth with what seems to be the most important. The N for veg and the P for flower. Cuz I know that you cant just give em those oh so usual NPK and just NPK. Some nutrients help the plant get other nutrients, and some can lock out other nutrients if concentrations are too high.

How do you feel about water source? Distilled, Tap?

TREES! lol reminds me of a post I made earlier about Indicas. Yeah I mean Im sure if you have the CO2 system fine tuned (seems to work, eh?) it will havea benefit, in my grow most likely not.


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## nouvellechef (Jun 15, 2011)

I use tap water with a PH of 8.3. Goes straight in after sitting for 48 hours. I use a mix of organic amendments. I have a recipe on here somewhere. Very very powerful.

As far as pests. If you don't trade clones and you leave all fans on 24/7. Really all you need is one dose of Floramite or forbid in the last week of veg. Follow that regime and don't deviate. GL


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

nouvellechef said:
			
		

> I use tap water with a PH of 8.3. Goes straight in after sitting for 48 hours. I use a mix of organic amendments. I have a recipe on here somewhere. Very very powerful.
> 
> As far as pests. If you don't trade clones and you leave all fans on 24/7. Really all you need is one dose of Floramite or forbid in the last week of veg. Follow that regime and don't deviate. GL


 
Ill check it out thanks buddy!

Gettin ready for another! :joint4: Gonna be a long summer....


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## Hick (Jun 15, 2011)

> yet I think you mean short Sativas. Indicas are natures giant of cannbis. TREES were talkin! TREES.


:confused2:.. I think you're turned 180 .. "Sat's" are predominately longer vegging, longer flowering, taller TREES than indicas.


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## nouvellechef (Jun 15, 2011)




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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

You gotta be kidding I couldnt tell you how many times the whole Indica Sativa has led me to Sativa=Short Bush, Indica=Tree, Ruderalis=wild cannabis still grows in certain areas of west US, practically no THC, grows due to the hemp industry from the 20s and 30s leaving seed behind.

LMAO I used to to call my baby I grew outdoors a true sativa bush.

Now Im an idiot. Oh well live learn grow I guess.


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## Hick (Jun 15, 2011)

"idiot" ??  not sure I would go THAT far!..   we're all stoners. and believe it or not, I myself was wrong once.. :confused2:


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jun 15, 2011)

AlkaloidContent said:
			
		

> As far as air exchange I think you may have skimmed over that part. I do mention an air intake, a fan powered exhaust eventually feeding to a carbon scrubber at the top, all setup on a thermostat to kick them on when temps hit a no no spot, intake at the very bottom filtered with hepa filter to keep out unwanteds. Plus the fan inside for air movement simulating wind, making stalks stronger.
> 
> About the CFLs I hear you the power, output, heat and all other factors involved, HID lighting is God in a bulb, however my setup is a box within a closet, that most of the time will be shut. So the air inside the closet must be able to hold for at least the time Im at work that overlaps with its light cycle, until I get home and open up the closet doors. The dark cycle the air temp should be absolutely wonderful. With CFLs it simply makes sense to keep the lighting to an indoor disaster that can happen as opposed to an outdoor light gone wild inside. Plus I like to purchase all my materials locally with cash. I refuse to order grow supplies online, you never know where your information goes. The only HID fixtures I can get ar 75W and they cant interchange HPS/MH. So although I actually agree with you. We have to consider all factors. This leads me to CFL.
> 
> ...



Okay as expected, here I am....Ruffy, you are not a mind reader, you guys are just getting to know me and my ummm, straightforward way of posting.  But hey, I am an old lady and you get a certain age, you never know how much longer you have.  No reason to pussyfoot around.  

Alkloid, I may sound harsh at times, but believe that I have your best interests at heart and only want you to have bountiful harvests.  I love helping people to become self sufficient.  I have not had to purchase bud in over 15 years and sporatically over the 15 years before that.

Your space has 6 sq ft of growing space and 30 cubic feet of space.  We use sq ft to figure lighting needs and cubic feet to figure ventilation needs.

Ventilation--you do not need an intake fan.  You need a good quality fan for exhaust.  This needs to run at least all the time the light are on (which should be 24/7 in veg).  Ventilation is for more than keeping your space cool.  Your plants need a continual supply of fresh air and this is only accomplished by exchanging the air in the space.  Most of us have passive intakes and use an oscillating fan to move air around.

I don't understand your reasoning for the CFLs at all--"... however my setup is a box within a closet, that most of the time will  be shut. So the air inside the closet must be able to hold for at least  the time Im at work that overlaps with its light cycle, until I get home  and open up the closet doors."  This statement doesn't make sense to me--I do not understand what you are trying to say?  I do not know what you mean by the air must be able to hold?  You mentioned in your opening post "With CFLs heat is kept to the minimum in ratio to light output."  This is not true.  CFLs put out more heat per watt and less lumens per watt than any other type of lighting we use for growing--they are the least efficient.  If you are using 23W bulbs, you are going to need 12 23W (276W 18,000 lumens) bulbs for vegging and about 20 bulbs (460W 30,000 lumens) for flowering (to achieve the 3000 lumens and the 5000 lumens needed).  

Having a grow space inside a closet shouldn't really make any difference.  I did a scrog grow in a box that I built in a closet.  It was 22" x 26" x 48" and lit with 2 150W HPS lights in a cool tube.  Just because HPS and MH lights are used for outside lighting does not make them outside lights--CFLs are no safer just because we use them inside, especially since they do run hotter.

What is your light schedule?  For vegging, I recommend a 124/7 light schedule.  Marijuana does not need a dark period and will grow all the time the lights are on.  IMO, a 18/6 light schedule encourages stretch and results in fewer internodes.

Regarding buying with cash locally and not online--you are paranoid for no reason.  Buying supplies online is NO security risk.  Either is paying with check or CC.  I would recommend purchasing some decent nutes for mj--GH Flora series or Fox Farm are what many here use.

Keep a close eye out for hermies as you are growing bagseed.  It is likely that those few seeds you find in a bag od dank is a result of selfing and the seeds will carry the hermie gene.

Males do not have enough THC to make it worth while to make hash with them.  Simply toss them.

Sativas grow tall and willowy with long slender leaves.  Indicas stay short and stocky with broad leaves.


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## Chewbongo (Jun 15, 2011)

Hick said:
			
		

> we're all stoners. and believe it or not, I myself was wrong once.. :confused2:


 
yeah rite hick, YOU, wrong, nah i just cant see it happening


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## Hick (Jun 15, 2011)

ChewbacaKz said:
			
		

> yeah rite hick, YOU, wrong, nah i just cant see it happening



chewy.. don't patronize me! ... it's beneath you...:rofl:...






 j/k my friend


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Your space has 6 sq ft of growing space and 30 cubic feet of space. We use sq ft to figure lighting needs and cubic feet to figure ventilation needs.


 
I knew the difference between square and cubic feet, what I didnt know is what is used to measure the two. Thank You  



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Ventilation--you do not need an intake fan. You need a good quality fan for exhaust. This needs to run at least all the time the light are on (which should be 24/7 in veg). Ventilation is for more than keeping your space cool. Your plants need a continual supply of fresh air and this is only accomplished by exchanging the air in the space. Most of us have passive intakes and use an oscillating fan to move air around.


 Awesome so I have just the right idea as long as my exhaust can exchange 30 cubic feet of air, within a certain timeframe.



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I don't understand your reasoning for the CFLs at all--"... however my setup is a box within a closet, that most of the time will be shut. So the air inside the closet must be able to hold for at least the time Im at work that overlaps with its light cycle, until I get home and open up the closet doors." This statement doesn't make sense to me--I do not understand what you are trying to say? I do not know what you mean by the air must be able to hold? You mentioned in your opening post "With CFLs heat is kept to the minimum in ratio to light output." This is not true. CFLs put out more heat per watt and less lumens per watt than any other type of lighting we use for growing--they are the least efficient. If you are using 23W bulbs, you are going to need 12 23W (276W 18,000 lumens) bulbs for vegging and about 20 bulbs (460W 30,000 lumens) for flowering (to achieve the 3000 lumens and the 5000 lumens needed).


 
 Call me a rebel. It just all in all is easier to use. If you really are curious as to my reasoning I will gladly paste in one of the posts I have on the site explaining why.



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> What is your light schedule? For vegging, I recommend a 24/7 light schedule. Marijuana does not need a dark period and will grow all the time the lights are on. IMO, a 18/6 light schedule encourages stretch and results in fewer internodes.


 
Goddess Im sorry but alot of things contribute to stretch. Genetics being the biggest. Intensity of light absorbed being the next. IMO. I have have 5 babies on a 18/6 right now simply because I do believe in letting them rest for a few. Even to lower temps and make em feel at home. I fully understand they can and will grow 24/0. However my babies are stout little bushes, BUT there is one baby that is looks to want to reach out more, its the same height just wants to hug her sisters I guess. And to be honest in my setup lollipop plants are most likely what Im looking at, so they can and will with some pruning. Or maybe Ill train and get alot of small branches. 



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Regarding buying with cash locally and not online--you are paranoid for no reason. Buying supplies online is NO security risk. Either is paying with check or CC. I would recommend purchasing some decent nutes for mj--GH Flora series or Fox Farm are what many here use.


 
...yea I do need to look further into this and pest/disease control.



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Keep a close eye out for hermies as you are growing bagseed. It is likely that those few seeds you find in a bag od dank is a result of selfing and the seeds will carry the hermie gene.


OMG I know this hangs over me every moment. But I mean this isnt for profit or even prideful impressions. Just to have. Just to do. Just to be a part of. Thats it, if I hermie let em seed at least they will flower too. And the males. Cannabutter baby. A whole bagelful of it lmao



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Males do not have enough THC to make it worth while to make hash with them. Simply toss them.


 
See previous joke lol.



			
				The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> Sativas grow tall and willowy with long slender leaves. Indicas stay short and stocky with broad leaves.


 
Im glad at the end of the day you punish me for being wrong about the damn plant Im so in tune with instead of this and that. True Hippie...

Also might I just say about your picture if that is indeed you...rawr


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jun 15, 2011)

AlkaloidContent said:
			
		

> Also might I just say about your picture if that is indeed you...rawr



Yeah...35-40 years ago :giggle:.  I'm a grandma now with a grandson who is almost 18.  I don't know how I got so old.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

Im sure a pure spirited woman like you ages very well anyway . Its a pleasure to meet you


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## bho_expertz (Jun 15, 2011)

:fid:


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

bho_expertz said:
			
		

> :fid:


 

I love subliminal messages. :stuff-1125699181_i_


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## Locked (Jun 15, 2011)

AC I am glad others hve chimed in here....I was worried you wld think me and Nchef were picking on ya.... 

Bottom line is it is your show to run how you see fit...we are just trying to spit out some info and knowledge we hve been lucky to learn while here. This site is more geared towards teaching and learning. That is why I call it home.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 15, 2011)

Hamster Lewis said:
			
		

> AC I am glad others hve chimed in here....I was worried you wld think me and Nchef were picking on ya....
> 
> Bottom line is it is your show to run how you see fit...we are just trying to spit out some info and knowledge we hve been lucky to learn while here. This site is more geared towards teaching and learning. That is why I call it home.


 
...and this is why I also love the opportunity to speak my side and develop the future of our hobby for the better. I dont feel threatened by facts or opinions. We are all here for the same purpose, may as well argue about it, and prove our points. 

We are after all one big family.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 16, 2011)

Well to recap, for the first week I simply had my babies in a 10" pot about 3-4 inches from the top of the pot unfortunately since I ran out of recyclable soil to use (from some other plants we have  ) I didnt PH it, I added some dead sticks and things from outside to give it some airy-ness, and in they went. Seeds in sprouts out. The growth you see if from about 1 week above ground. Some are looking better than others as you can see but they all have potential so lets not belittle them.

Today before work I went to Lows got 2 more 23W CFLs, 2 more Y adapters, and a bottle of fish emulsion.

I watered them thoroughly with: 1 gallon of tap water (6.5-7 avg PH), 1/2 tsp of fish emulsion, 1/2 tsp of mollases. I also took a rolaids that contains around 500mg Calcium Carbonate and around 150mg Magnesium-something-oxide. Broke the rolaids up and added it to some hot water stirred and crushed it in the water. Let sit and filtered out all of the solids left behind. Poured water into feed water. Watered plants.

Then since the soil was nice and wet, I went ahead and got each baby from its soil/rootball and got em out, mixed the recycled soil I had 50/50 with the MG Organic soil, put a layer on the bottom of some gravel, not from the driveway or anything, from behind the shed next the the yard where no oil or things like that could be on it. Let the gravel sit in hot water and hand agitated to loosen up dirt and stuff leaving behind nice clean stone. Who knows how well it will work at drainage/water retention/air retention for the soil but something tells me it will do alot better than just soil with no perlite or anything. Plus there are still plenty of broken twigs and things still in the mix to keep it loose.

Next I got them back into the pot. Filled around them with soil, got them nice and spaced so they get all benefit from the light and are not too close to each other, at least for another week until I get the lighting more spaced and get them all into their own pots. Then flowering shouldnt be too far from this. I want to make sure they go into a great soil blend to flower with bloom nutes. This way the soil is fresh and not tainted with vegging nutes.

Then I gave em a good foliar spray to clean off dirt and debris, tops and bottoms of leaves so the tops can absorb light and the bottoms can absorb air, without dirt clogging it up.

Finally gave em a quick haircut and their ready for Grandmas house.

So heres a quick rundown.

1. The closet. You can see what I mean about two spaces with a shelf in the middle.
2. The side of the room I am using since it has a lower hanger bar.
3. This is my basic setup for now just to get em going. It has all the basic but will be getting completed with the next couple days. New pics then too.
4. These are the bag seed babies. Nothing too fancy just kickin it.
5. Same shot but overhead.
6. These are the two biggest and fastest growing, they all came from the same bag and have had identical conditions since put in the ground so IDK maybe future males?
7. This is the one I was talking about, she just wants a hug, and she doesnt seem to be too anxious to put out her high finger count leaves yet. As long as she is in fact a she I dont mind her taking her time.
8. This is one of the runts in the bunch. I really dont want to think that they have any neglect that would extend beyond neglect or ignorance all the others have faced.
9. The second runt. Same scenario.

Hope you guys enjoy the slight update!


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## BudLover#69 (Jun 17, 2011)

Dude I didn't read your huge post so I don't know what your plans are!!  BUT I would get them in individual pots FAST,,,  Those will be so tangled in a few days you will have to grow them that way or really damage the root system when transplanting.

lol that big fan is just a little over kill!,,lol


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 17, 2011)

LMAO I knew that fan would raise an eybrow see what I did was have it facing the other way at first just to circulate air and pull heat away from it, now that they are alot sturdier and more lights are in there, I pointed it towards to compensate. The fan is set on its lowest setting which isnt very powerful, and its only temporary, one thing to remeber is that I havent enclosed the actual growing space yet, so the whole closet is open inside I wanted to keep a fan strong enough to circulate with good pressure througout the closet. Once I enclose it all, I will have a circulation fan and exhaust 24 hrs a day. Thanks to some advice. 

I hear you on the one pot thing. They will be going into new pots next watering or maybe next feed.

Oh yea I forgot to mention, pictures may speak a thousand words, but a thousand words state a point perfectly.

Read the log and next time you'll know exactly whats going on. Thank you for your comments though.


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## Hick (Jun 17, 2011)

Some folks cut the fan leaves in half when cloning, to aid in dehydration. Cutting them off seedlings only shocks, damages, and inhibits growth. IMO/E.
  Rolaids?? did they have indigestion??  Maybe some Flintstone chewables next time??.. 
  IMO You really should just get some 'quality' "plant" nutrients, designed and formulated for plants utilization.  
Every time you handle, transplant, muck with them you're slowing their progress, stunting their growth, and risking stress and damage.


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## Chewbongo (Jun 17, 2011)

Hick said:
			
		

> chewy.. don't patronize me! ... it's beneath you...:rofl:...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hick I wouldn't patronize u,LOL all jokes aside I believe whatever u say when it comes to growing


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 17, 2011)

Hick said:
			
		

> Some folks cut the fan leaves in half when cloning, to aid in dehydration. Cutting them off seedlings only shocks, damages, and inhibits growth. IMO/E.
> Rolaids?? did they have indigestion?? Maybe some Flintstone chewables next time??..
> IMO You really should just get some 'quality' "plant" nutrients, designed and formulated for plants utilization.
> Every time you handle, transplant, muck with them you're slowing their progress, stunting their growth, and risking stress and damage.


 
Indisgestion , lmao but hey thanks for the flintstones idea, I mean really the same idea went into the rolaids thing. I havent bought any real nutes yet beacuse I dont really need them yet. Here within a couple weeks for sure but not just yet.

Also the whole reasoning for clipping the fan leaves back is to allow for what nutrients they are asking for to go to the middle of the plant and so it doesnt branch as much. Well actually it will branch more, but trimming them back towards the stalk will just condense the plant. Look at bonsai trees, yea maybe they went through added stress With the space I have Im most likely going to lollipop em so trimming them to stimulate center growth and bushiness is what Im after.

As far as the transplanting I understand completely, and they will be going into their own homes very soon. just wanna get another light set up just like the one you see so I can span light up to about 2 sq ft. Then they can all still get the intensity they need. 

The trick with CFLs is keeping em close to the top, and then once they grow taller, keep the top light, and also keep a bulb really close to the big fan leaves on the bottom. They are basically solar panels, and since it is a large leaf gathering a good amount of light it will continue to photosynthesize energy for the entire plant.

Once flowering starts however the light has to be really intense on the tops, but having a good intense light hitting fan leaves on the bottom is good, since the further into flowering you lose good leaves at the top, but the buds still collect the light.


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## BudLover#69 (Jun 17, 2011)

LMFAO,,Too Much reading for me!!!  I'll just check the pics out thats all I need to know whats going on right then and there,,,A pic shows what your REALITY at the moment really is!! LOL   Ppl can type till they are Blue in the face and say Anything....Good Luck though


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 17, 2011)

BudLover#69 said:
			
		

> LMFAO,,Too Much reading for me!!! I'll just check the pics out thats all I need to know whats going on right then and there,,,A pic shows what your REALITY at the moment really is!! LOL Ppl can type till they are Blue in the face and say Anything....Good Luck though


 
Touche'


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## Ruffy (Jun 17, 2011)

im not being mean but from what ive seen, seperate! dont clip leaves! they will grow good. @ week 4-5 the top them if u want, that will put the growth down low to the other branches to make them bushy. good luck and keep reading & asking questions


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 17, 2011)

Ruffy said:
			
		

> im not being mean but from what ive seen, seperate! dont clip leaves! they will grow good. @ week 4-5 the top them if u want, that will put the growth down low to the other branches to make them bushy. good luck and keep reading & asking questions


 
yeah your deff right about the separation. They are going to need it soon. However with toopping wi would worry about the plants branching and going sideways, I only have 6 sq ft hoping for 5-6 fems if I get my babies from the outside in (I know pests too), what Im looking for is bushiness and one main cola bud. 

I dont know why some people shun this thought. Has no one ever seen pics?


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## Hick (Jun 17, 2011)

> Also the whole reasoning for clipping the fan leaves back is to allow for what nutrients they are asking for to go to the middle of the plant and so it doesnt branch as much. Well actually it will branch more, but trimming them back towards the stalk will just condense the plant.



 So which is it?? "so it doesn't branch".. or "it will actually branch more" ??
it removes their ability to photosynthesize. And forces them to use more energy trying to reproduce them. They NEED those leaves in order to metabolize.



> I dont know why some people shun this thought. Has no one ever seen pics?



I think there are a few here that do a form of SOG at least.(small, single cola plants, grown close together) But SOG is best performed with cuttings. Cuttings that are mature and ready to flower, that are not vegged for an extensive period, and will all grow and perform 'at least' close to the same. A SOG from seed is going to give you headaches, me thinks.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 17, 2011)

Hick said:
			
		

> So which is it?? "so it doesn't branch".. or "it will actually branch more" ??
> it removes their ability to photosynthesize. And forces them to use more energy trying to reproduce them. They NEED those leaves in order to metabolize.
> 
> 
> ...


 
Okay fair enough. The lot of grows I have seen were SOG. Although I have seen as many SOG from seed too. The thing is I will flower based on size not plant age. 

Im sorry if how I explain myself doesnt always make sense Im a fast thinker and even faster typer. I have prob edited every post on this site so far. lol.

I dont want it to branch sideways as in I dont want the branches to go out and up. When you knock back a leaf you stimulate the growth at the stalk meaning the new growth from the top and stimulate growth where the leaf split from the stalk, bud sites I guess would be the best term. So if I trim a little hear and there, not alot, not often but keep them pushing for the branching with me just knocking it back again.

Maybe it will work maybe it wont. I have trimmed many a plant and they did just fine. Maybe not as well as you or some others could have done it, and I understand you want me to have the best possible. 

I appreciate this the most. I really do and I think some members think I just want to argue. I DONT. I just want to be involved and show the world my style. Im sorry if Im not 100% correct every post, but after all this is all fake isnt it?

I just want to go ahead and thank all those who have taken a look, and cared enough to call me out, its those who do this who truly care and I know this.


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## Hick (Jun 18, 2011)

AC  I appreciate your participation..   Sometimes your posts seem confusing,.. or confused!    it's all good 

that said. Plants from seed "must" reach a stage of 'sexual maturity', before they WILL flower. (i.e. you "can't" flower by size, they "must" be allowed to mature to that crucial "age")
That is why SOG is usually performed with clones. They are sexually mature, and ready for flower. 
If you cut the hours to 12/12 on a plant fro seed that is 'not' sexually mature, you only induce a lot  of stretch, which is not what you want in a SOG...'IMO'...


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

Hick said:
			
		

> AC I appreciate your participation..  Sometimes your posts seem confusing,.. or confused!  it's all good
> 
> that said. Plants from seed "must" reach a stage of 'sexual maturity', before they WILL flower. (i.e. you "can't" flower by size, they "must" be allowed to mature to that crucial "age")
> That is why SOG is usually performed with clones. They are sexually mature, and ready for flower.
> If you cut the hours to 12/12 on a plant fro seed that is 'not' sexually mature, you only induce a lot of stretch, which is not what you want in a SOG...'IMO'...


 
Yeah your right its always been one of those things that hang over me, I mean I have harvested plants from seed that only went for 18/6 or 24/0 with maybe 2-3 weeks of veg and they went to 12/12. Were not talking about Grade A ish, but they did what they had to do. 

At this point the babies nodes on are spaced about 1/8 to 1/4 inch and I have my bulbs about an inch from them. They dont really seem to want to go sideways either, they just want to bush. The growth for the branches is already showing on the stalks. The babies are only about an inch or so still and they are working on their 4th nodes coming out the top.

So when should I 12/12 it? This round I am not going so much for ready to smoke in X days, more or less wanna give em all the time they need. Still within the usual timeframe however.

Thanks again guys!


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## bho_expertz (Jun 18, 2011)

If you follow the rules of most here you will wait until they show alternating nodes and pre-flowers and then change to 12/12. This can take at least 6 weeks. 
If space is a problem or you want to fasten up the grow you can change after 3 weeks, but you will suffer in yield and perhaps in female ratio.
If you wait for pre-flowers you will have to do something to control growth like top and lst.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

bho_expertz said:
			
		

> If you follow the rules of most here you will wait until they show alternating nodes and pre-flowers and then change to 12/12. This can take at least 6 weeks.
> If space is a problem or you want to fasten up the grow you can change after 3 weeks, but you will suffer in yield and perhaps in female ratio.
> If you wait for pre-flowers you will have to do something to control growth like top and lst.


 
 OMG! What if I after like 3-4 weeks top and still do my usual trim towards a center technique, switching to 12/12 at the 6 week mark, could this keep growth down to a certain height while also thickening center growth 

your idea + my idea = big fat dense cola bud?

As for the alternating nodes, I feel dumb again as this is obviously the answer I just never had to pay that close attention, I always forced flowering, or grew outdoor.


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## bho_expertz (Jun 18, 2011)

I force flowering aswell ... Next will not ... Or will ? Don't know yet ... Is more like a feeling or need


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

Thats really my style just give it what it needs, use your equipment properly, and take advantage of the process if you have to for benefit not greed.

Otherwise, thhrow it outside, feed here and there, and wait.


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## SunWolf (Jun 18, 2011)

AlkaloidContent said:
			
		

> OMG! What if I after like 3-4 weeks top and still do my usual trim towards a center technique, switching to 12/12 at the 6 week mark, could this keep growth down to a certain height while also thickening center growth
> 
> your idea + my idea = big fat dense cola bud?
> 
> As for the alternating nodes, I feel dumb again as this is obviously the answer I just never had to pay that close attention, I always forced flowering, or grew outdoor.



Pretty much everything I've read here on MP, (and pretty much everything everybody has said in this thread) says switching to 12/12 before they are sexually mature will just make them stretch taller.  If they are not ready to go to flower when you cut the light, they will stretch to look for more light.  Once they have gone alternating and show preflowers, they are ready to flower and the 12/12 is then appropriate.

As for clipping (your usual trim towards a center technique) the leaves on plants grown from seed, well that just makes it harder for them to get everything they need from the light because they only have half the "solar panel" because you cut half of it away.

Just seems like you are looking for shortcuts instead of going with the general consensus on what has been proven to work.   sorry, jmo


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jun 18, 2011)

You cannot actually force flowering.  They will not flower until they are sexually mature, regardless of when you switch the light to 12/12.


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## jbyrd (Jun 18, 2011)

Ya know...reading through all this, I think with your height constraints you would do well with super cropping and LST, you'd get your bushes and be able to control canopy height very well.  I have to concur with Hick on the trimming of the leaves, it's just taking away from the plants ability to convert light to energy and slowing it's growth down. 

There's a lot of people on both sides of the fence regarding leaf culling and trimming...some that swear by taking off 'extra' fans that are blocking bud sites, etc.  In the end...the basic science of how a plant grows tells you it's a no no..lol.  We want to grow the most healthy plants possible, that means leaving her vitals alone 

Anyhow, I'm along for the ride.  I think the questions you ask and the methods you are trying are all beneficial for people to see and learn from.  Whether it's learn to or not too, it's all good to have it journaled.

Peace man!


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## bho_expertz (Jun 18, 2011)

Well ... I don't agree with that totally ... they will not ONLY stretch taller but they will force the sex show. 

For example a 3 weeks plant. If wait until pre-flowers it can take at least more 3 weeks ( or longer ). If induce flowering the sex will show in one week, one week and a half max.

They will always stretch because the stretch happens when the light is off and when changing to 12/12 they will automatically stretch if 3 weeks or 6 weeks.

For example i had 14 seeds or something ... If i waited until all of them showned preflowers it would be a dense jungle. It is all different ways of growing depending on your setup, size, etc. You cannot say to a person growing in a cabinet to wait until preflowers to change to 12/12. But one person with a good sized growroom or very few plants you can give that tip. Few and big VS More and smaller.

I still do not believe that waiting for preflowers is a most for growing. But everyone is the right to follow what they think the best .

Of course you cannot expect a yield of much with just one but you can make it having more plants.

Regarding the removal of leaves or bottom buds ... I don't do that but i have seen ppl who does that. Think that only in SOG.

Hope i didn't hurt anyone feelings  just my opinion. But i'm kinda new to the business.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jun 18, 2011)

I'm not saying that you have to wait for preflowers.  I am saying that the plant will not flower until it is ready.  You are not actually forcing them to flower.  You are giving them flowering light, nutes, etc so that as soon as they are ready (sexually mature), they are in the correct environment.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that you have to wait for preflowers. I am saying that the plant will not flower until it is ready. You are not actually forcing them to flower. You are giving them flowering light, nutes, etc so that as soon as they are ready (sexually mature), they are in the correct environment.


 
Oh okay see I actually thought the opposite to be true. I thought that the change in environment was what made the plant begin to change its thought process and do what it has to do to live FOREVA! lol.

So around 6 weeks eh? I wonder about how tall they will be then, they are about an inch and are around a week so I hope that ratio continues. I know if I top Ill get two colas then I can center the growth on them but IDK we'll see, I like to take it day by day.

and wow the babies we have outside really turned around, about 3-4 days ago they were just looking sad, just sad, going yellow, leaf tips browning, abnormal growth, etc. THey were basically planted in some pottin gmix with some bloodmeal and left to go for the rains and a watering maybe here or there. 

These however arent mine, but upon inspecting them I decided to convince the owner to let me look after em.

So I made another random feed concoction with about 1/2 tsp bloodmeal, 2 of the rolaids with calcium and magnesium tap water and....Oh yea 1/2 tsp molasses, and I think thats it, watered em, and now 2 days later BAM, lush green new growth the they are standing flat out and looking happy again!


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## bho_expertz (Jun 18, 2011)

I also don't think that topping will give you two colas ... If you do it right and with LST it gives you multiple colas. And it also depends on the node you top.

IMO you should really buy some REAL ferts. PH meter and EC meter.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

OH YEA! I wanted to ask you guys what you thought about wheat germ.

I see it has tons of nute value, and I also wanna take into consideration about Hicks flinstones vitamin idea, anybody got any thoughts?

Of course I still want to use the fish emulsion, mollases, and until I come up with a verdict, the rolaids, also only for now until its time to flower then getting a good bloom NPK going, but always even still providing tons of vite and mins for the babies, I really only see it becoming an issue if there is too much sodium buildup or other trace elements in the flintstones vites.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

bho_expertz said:
			
		

> I also don't think that topping will give you two colas ... If you do it right and with LST it gives you multiple colas. And it also depends on the node you top.
> 
> IMO you should really buy some REAL ferts. PH meter and EC meter.


 
Thats strange because I topped the biggest outdoor baby we have, shortly before someone bent it over. Well its good now all patched up but you can clearly see the two branches from the node below where I snipped have become there own bud sites, almost like two new plants growing out of it, but you know what I mean. That should make to new buds if trimmed to center, but that would be alot of work so I see what you mean about alot of littler branches. Possible tho IMO


and as for REAL ferts, all a REAL fert is, is a bottle with a name brand on it that contains certain concentrations of elements. 

Why is it so hard to provide those same elements, I mean their everywhere (thinking aloud here). See my post about wheat germ, look at the nutritional supply of just this one ingredient. Phosphorous, Potassium, Calcium, Iron, NO SODIUM, carbs, protein. ITS WHEAT for crying out loud.


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## jbyrd (Jun 18, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I'm not saying that you have to wait for preflowers.  I am saying that the plant will not flower until it is ready.  You are not actually forcing them to flower.  You are giving them flowering light, nutes, etc so that as soon as they are ready (sexually mature), they are in the correct environment.



The plant contains flowering hormones that are present during all stages of growth.  It's the photoperiod that determines whether the plant will flower or not.  If the plant sense's that it's growing season is coming to an end, it will induce flowering so it can reproduce before it dies.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jun 18, 2011)

I understand that the plant contains flowering hormones and that the light schedule triggers this...to a point.  The plant *must be* sexually mature before it will flower regardless of the light schedule.  For instance, a 2 week old seedling is not going to flower for at least several weeks, regardless of whether you are running a 12/12 lighting, while a 6-8 week plant should start flowering right away.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

Im not sure what to believe I think what we ultimately need to research is when the marijuana plant begins to show these hormones. Are they present before environment changes or does the plant make them when the environment changes. Time to hit the Goog.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

Again from Wiki, but heres a start...

*"Most plants (except auto flowering strains that flower independently of photoperiod) can flower under diminished light. In nature, cannabis plants sense the forthcoming Winter as the Earth revolves around the Sun and daylight reduces in duration..."*

and also...

*"Indoors, cannabis is induced into flowering by decreasing its photoperiod to at least 10 hours of darkness per day. Traditionally most growers change their plants lighting cycle to 12 hours on and 12 hours off. This change in photoperiod mimics the plant's natural outdoor cycle, with up to 18 hours of light per day in the Summer and down to less than 12 hours of light in Fall and Winter.[18]

Although the flowering hormone in most plants (including cannabis) is present during all phases of growth, it is inhibited by exposure to light. To induce flowering, the plant must be subject to at least 8 hours of darkness per day; this number is very strain-specific and most growers flower with 12 hours of darkness to be safe.

The flowering hormone is very quickly inhibited, taking less than two minutes of exposure[citation needed] to light. Consequently, many cultivators are vigilant that no light reach their plants during the flowering phase. Some go as far as to research the phases of the moon to avoid exposure to the full moon during critical phases of flowering. Indoor growers often seal the growing area to make the space light tight, and are careful not to "peek" at the plants during their dark phase."*

So IDK I mean it looks like the hormones are always present. This doesnt state what effect not waiting for alternate nodes does but it does seem as though the plant decides based of of environment.


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jun 18, 2011)

You might want to check out Clarke's "Marijuana Botany".  A far better source than Wiki.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> You might want to check out Clarke's "Marijuana Botany". A far better source than Wiki.


 
I did THG and right in Chapter 4 First line reads

"The maturation of Cannabis is normally annual and its timing is influenced by the age of the plant, changes in photoperiod, and other environmental conditions."

So while Im not saying your wrong and yes WIKI is not the greatest place to source, but even this line clearly states, age of plant AND change in photoperiod and other environmental conditions. 

If the plant simply wouldnt flower until it was a certain age, why would there be a difference between sativa/indicas and auto ruderalis?

I mean even when you look up seeds it will list when the plant will flower either based on "photoperiod" or "auto." 

So it has to be true that photoperiod will induce flowering in the plants even if it hasnt decided its time. Granted this obviously will mean quality and quantity will be majorly affected but we cant state that its false.


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## Hick (Jun 18, 2011)

The Hemp Goddess said:
			
		

> I understand that the plant contains flowering hormones and that the light schedule triggers this...to a point.  The plant *must be* sexually mature before it will flower regardless of the light schedule.  For instance, a 2 week old seedling is not going to flower for at least several weeks, regardless of whether you are running a 12/12 lighting, while a 6-8 week plant should start flowering right away.



This is "WHY" seedlings don't flower when put outdoors in the early spring when light hours are short and clones "DO". Because the clones are already sexually mature.



> So it has to be true that photoperiod will induce flowering in the plants even if it hasnt decided its time. Granted this obviously will mean quality and quantity will be majorly affected but we cant state that its false.


 You can not "make" a plant that is not sexually mature flower. .You "CAN" prevent or inhibit a mature plant from flowering by keeping it under "long days".THAT is what is meant by a "photoperiod" flowering plant. It requires "short day" hours to produce the flowering hormone, faster than it is being destroyed by longer day hours.
http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8937 <-- flowering sticky


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 18, 2011)

Great point about the seedlings and clones. Very good point.


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## jbyrd (Jun 19, 2011)

Hick said:
			
		

> This is "WHY" seedlings don't flower when put outdoors in the early spring when light hours are short and clones "DO". Because the clones are already sexually mature.
> 
> 
> You can not "make" a plant that is not sexually mature flower. .You "CAN" prevent or inhibit a mature plant from flowering by keeping it under "long days".THAT is what is meant by a "photoperiod" flowering plant. It requires "short day" hours to produce the flowering hormone, faster than it is being destroyed by longer day hours.
> http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8937 <-- flowering sticky



By the time you place plants outside in the Northern Hemisphere (usually sometime in Late April or May depending on frost, etc.) the days are already over 14 hours, which is generally the outside boundary in where any particular strain would sense a change and flip it's switch.

I've grown 12/12 from seed, the plants start flowering within the standard 14 - 21 days depending on strain.  The post you referenced is just stating what was already said.  Photoperiod drives the process.

I'm not trying to argue, nor am I one who thinks it's worth the time (hell...seeds aren't worth the time..lol) to grow in this manner.  I'm just saying it's done, with great results and the plants do not magically wait 4 - 6 weeks to mature to start flowering.

There was old information passed around that plants grown in this manner were less potent that ones that had a proper vegetative phase, but that's been well disproved by many a grower.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 19, 2011)

Well just to maintain the vibes we got going on this joint. Teen Bud Porn!
All models are at least 18 hours of age. In accordance to MP Rules and Guidelines...and you get the point.


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## Hick (Jun 19, 2011)

A seedling will not flower before it is sexually mature. It's not rumor or old information. 
Sexually mature clones put out under those same conditions(April/May) WILL flower. 
Potency is also effected by the age/maturity of the plant. <-- from my own experience



> *When a plant reaches an adequate age for flowering* and the nights lengthen following the summer solstice (June 21-22), flowering begins. This is the triggering of the reproductive phase of the life cycle
> 
> Many factors influence the production of THC. In general, *the older a plant, the greater its potential to produce THC*.
> 
> Contrary to popular thought, planting Cannabis strains later in the season in temperate latitudes may actually promote earlier flowering. Most cultivators believe that planting early gives the plant plenty of time to flower and it will finish earlier. This is often not true. Seedlings started in February or March grow for 4-5 months of increasing photoperiod before the days begin to get shorter following the solstice in June. Huge vegetative plants grow and may form floral inhibitors during the months of long photo-period. *When the days begin to get shorter, these older plants may be reluctant to flower because of the floral inhibitors formed in the pre-floral leaves. *Since floral cluster formation takes 6-10 weeks, the initial delay in flowering could push the harvest date into November or December. Cannabis started during the short days of December or January will often differentiate sex by March or April. Usually these plants form few floral clusters and rejuvenate for the long season ahead. No increased potency has been noticed in old rejuvenated plants. Plants started in late June or early July, after the summer solstice, are exposed only to days of decreasing photoperiod.* When old enough they begin flowering immediately, possibly because they haven&#8217;t built up as many long-day floral inhibitors.* They begin the 6-10 week floral period with plenty of time to finish during the warmer days of October. These later plantings yield smaller plants because they have a shorter vegetative cycle. This may prove an advantage. in greenhouse research, where it is common for plants to grow far too large for easy handling before they begin to flower. Late plantings after the summer solstice receive short inductive photoperiods almost immediately. However, flowering is delayed into September *since the plant must grow before it is old enough to flower.* Although flowering is delayed, the small plants rapidly produce copious quantities of flowers in a final effort to reproduce.


 <-- from MJ botany


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## The Hemp Goddess (Jun 19, 2011)

jbyrd said:
			
		

> There was old information passed around that plants grown in this manner were less potent that ones that had a proper vegetative phase, but that's been well disproved by many a grower.



I don't want to argue either, but this is simply not true--a plant does have to be sexually mature before it will begin flowering.  Time has not changed the rules of botany.  A plant grown from  seed will not immediately begin flowering just because it is put into a 12/12 light cycle.


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## bho_expertz (Jun 19, 2011)

I think that here the question is ... When to change to 12/12 from seed. 
Of course you shouldn't change it with one or two weeks old ( but i have seen ppl who does it ). But from 3 or 4 weeks old is ok. IMO.


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## Locked (Jun 19, 2011)

12/12 from seed in my opinion is a waste....the plant will not flower till it is sexually mature...this is not a rumor or here say it is fact....read a book on MJ botany if you doubt it.  With the exceptions of autos and running from mature clones there is no way around the wait.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 19, 2011)

The biggest question for me is would one be able to switch to 12/12 after 3-4 weeks and then switch back once males have been removed. Only to allow for more space efficiency and to remove plants that dont need the light and other resources, and then let them veg until they are just too big. At this point 3-4 weeks I should be looking at a good 7-8 nodes, but they are going to be bushy not tall at all so while the bud spots going up the stalk are going to be dense, I wanna let them get as big as they can be too.


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## Roddy (Jun 19, 2011)

Trust me, they'll stretch up in the first 3 weeks of budding....don't worry about getting bigger.


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## jbyrd (Jun 19, 2011)

Hick said:
			
		

> A seedling will not flower before it is sexually mature. It's not rumor or old information.
> Sexually mature clones put out under those same conditions(April/May) WILL flower.
> Potency is also effected by the age/maturity of the plant. <-- from my own experience
> 
> <-- from MJ botany



I've read books too...lol.  Two paragraphs above the one you quoted in MJ Botany: 



> Flowering in Cannabis may be forced or accelerated by many different techniques. This does not mean that THC production is forced, only that the time before and during flowering is shortened and flowers are produced rapidly. Most techniques involve the deprivation of light during the long days of summer to promote early floral induction and sexual differentiation. This is sometimes done by moving the plants inside a completely dark structure for 12 hours of each 24-hour day until the floral clusters are mature. This stimulates an autumn light cycle and promotes flowering at any time of the year. In the field, covers may be made to block out the sun for a few hours at sunrise or sunset, and these are used to cover small plants. Photoperiod alteration is most easily accomplished in a greenhouse, where blackout curtains are easily rolled over the plants. Drug Cannabis production requires 11-12 hours of continuous darkness to induce flowering and at least 10 hours of light for adequate THC production (Valle et al. 1978). In a greenhouse, supplemental lighting need be used only to extend daylength, while the sun supplies the energy needed for growth and THC biosynthesis. It is not known why at least 10 hours (and preferably 12 or 13 hours) of light are needed for high THC production. This is not dependent on accumulated solar energy since light responses can be activated and THC production increased with only a 40-watt bulb. A reasonable theory is that a light-sensitive pigment in the plant (possibly phytochrome) acts as a switch, causing the plant to follow the flowering cycle. THC production is probably associated with the induction of flowering resulting from the photoperiod change.



Everything you've posted references outdoor, natural plant cycles.  That's why we grow indoors and control our environment, so we can control and bend these cycles.  I'm sorry, but we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one until my current run finishes, at which point I will grow one 12/12 from seed and journal it just to show you it can be done.  A total waste of a seed, but what heck.  It's all for learning and showing people what this wonderful plant can do.

Don't believe everything you read in a book.  I've been growing this plant a long time and have seen many contradictions to books.

AC, the vibes are great man  I love discussions about MJ and I'm not sitting here angrily typing away.  I just hope that's the same for others.  I didn't join MP to be a jerk, I joined to make more friends and share some knowledge.  Now I'm done buggering up your journal with this discussion. lol.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 19, 2011)

Honestly I like that we all can get this info across in one place. Thats why I love these journals its the one place on the site where you can discuss everything.

Its just common that people take discussion for argument. We are all here for the same purpose. Lets just have at it.

I wouldnt waste a seed though. I have seen a 12/12 from seed and it yeilded 2 grams. LMFAO


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## jbyrd (Jun 19, 2011)

Right on man, I'm glad your cool with it.  The more people discuss and share about growing the more people learn.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 19, 2011)

So does anybody have any comments on the latest pics? Any ideas? Im wondering whats up with the smallest runt. Right at her base her taproot just doesnt seem to really be getting thick like I would want it to. Im really just thinking at this point they just want their own homes. Im sure the the two giants at her sides are sucking down what she doesnt get to quick enough.

Otherwise they seem to have great color and formation. I love the fact they are staying so squat. Low lighting works if you ask me. Also the lovable one that is all branch is really bushing at the center since she can get so much light to her stalk. I thought it was so cool however even though It could have been due to defficiency, but on the 2nd node where usually one would get three fingers. This one spat out one phat wide leaf. BUT in time it has been slowly separating itself two fingers on its side. I dont think they will actually split into leaves but it looks cool I cant remember if you can see it in the pic. If not I can take one later tonight. Its the first Ive seen.


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## jbyrd (Jun 19, 2011)

They look great man, except for the part of being all in the same pot  :holysheep:   LOL (had to throw that in there)

I would separate them now, before the roots start getting to tangled up.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 19, 2011)

:bolt: 

Yea I know I gotta get that done. Whats the biggest size pot you think I should get I would love for them to get 3 ft at most.


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## jbyrd (Jun 19, 2011)

Mine are about 3' in a 3gal pot with a little more stretch left.  Flowered at about 18".


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 19, 2011)

Oh okay well that seems reasonable. 3 feet after is my max comfort zone. Ill prob wait for anywhere between 7 or 8 inches up to a foot.


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## Roddy (Jun 19, 2011)

AlkaloidContent said:
			
		

> Honestly I like that we all can get this info across in one place. Thats why I love these journals its the one place on the site where you can discuss everything.
> 
> Its just common that people take discussion for argument. We are all here for the same purpose. Lets just have at it.
> 
> I wouldnt waste a seed though. I have seen a 12/12 from seed and it yeilded 2 grams. LMFAO



2 grams....now that IS a waste of time...and seed!


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 19, 2011)

I mean you have to also consider all the factors. It was more or less a test run like you are speaking of so I think they were hoping it would die but they took care of it and it grew. 

I mean you can go online and find all sorts of 12/12s that harvest nice like 10-15g per plant. With good seed, in a good setup, possible training of some sort, etc. So I cant say its impossible or a waste cuz I personally would love to get some great fem'd seed and 12/12 them all and get a bunch of little plants with 10-15g than to have 1 or 2 monsters with 1/8 to 1/4 lb each.

Who knows lol...


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## dman1234 (Jun 19, 2011)

Your plants look good AC.

but as mentioned I URGE you to separate those seedlings into their own pots, your risking damaging females during transplant later when roots are tangled.


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## bho_expertz (Jun 19, 2011)

I don't want to be a bad news giver but probably they already are. With all that growth upwards downwards should be well developed aswell.

Be very very gentle ... that is my tip.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 19, 2011)

Yea I fear what you guys are saying. Ill be getting something new going. I wanted to wait to buy some good pots but you know what I am talking about getting ready to start cutting up some milk jugs and what not, cutting drainage holes and fillin em up. I need to get em in there own pots I know I didnt even mean for it to last this long.


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## Hick (Jun 20, 2011)

jbyrd said:
			
		

> I've read books too...lol.  Two paragraphs above the one you quoted in MJ Botany:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


" I've been growing this plant a long time"...(probably not the best card to pull )
    hmmm I've been growing since 1980 .   I have "several" hundred plants under my belt, both ID and out. 
Sure you find 'contradicting' info' in various books, but you 'won't' find much incorrect or mythical info' in Clarkes book. 

Do you think that in 30 years, I never had seedlings under 12/12?..  
I "know" you can grow from seed 12/12. But Clark ha explained it, and explained it quite well in the text that *"I"* quoted above. In the same context where he was speaking of both supplementing light, AND blackout curtains in greenhouses. Hardly "_references outdoor, natural plant cycles"_...
"*the older a plant, the greater its potential to produce THC*.".......*"When old enough **they begin flowering immediately, possibly because they havent built up as many long-day floral inhibitors.* "

Your quote came from where he was talking about flower maturation and thc content/production. "forcing, accelerating flowering *once* they have reached sexual maturity. 

I know mj "can" be grown 12/12 from seed. Of course it can. So 'your anecdotal' evidence that they will grow and flower under those hours is a mute point. It does not dismiss the fact that they "must" reach sexual maturity before they can flower. Be it 3 weeks or 8 weeks.


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## Mutt (Jun 20, 2011)

> It does not dismiss the fact that they "must" reach sexual maturity before they can flower. Be it 3 weeks or 8 weeks.



:yeahthat: Yet to have any start flowering from a seedling yet. For me it's always been 4 weeks min. from seed cracking. Shows that there has to be a albiet short but bare min. vegetative state. Every living thing has it's life cycle. Gestation, birth, growth, reproduction, death. just the way it is. Don't need a book when the evidence is all around me. We can manipulate the timeline and even reverse the end stage on some of em, but really everything has this cycle and sooner or later the end comes. Even moms kept under 24/0 light sooner or later bites the dust.


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## BBFan (Jun 20, 2011)

Botany 101-

There are basically 3 stages in a plant evocation:

1.  Juvenille Vegetative (not competent to flower)
2.  Adult Vegetative (competent or able to flower)
3.  Adult reproductive (flower)

Once past the embryonic stage, a plant must go through the juvenille vegetative stage to accumulate mass before it can flower, regardless of environmental factors.  Size has more impact than actual age, so a well grown plant will have the ability to flower sooner, but the process must still follow it's natural course.


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## Locked (Jun 20, 2011)

Lol....I can't believe this is still being argued over.....anyone who has grown MJ 12-12 from seed knows the truth. It will not flower till it is mature enough...period. 

Now if you want to only give your growing plant 12 hours of light a day during it's vegetative period don't be surprised when the guy giving his plant 24 hours or 20 or 18 or 16....well you get the point...has a better vegged plant. You are asking for unwanted stretch in my opinion.


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## 7greeneyes (Jun 20, 2011)

MOOT POINT its a moot point, Hick...lol


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 20, 2011)

Please by all means argue all you need to. If someone reads this log by the time its done and never has to read about growing MJ again my job has been done even if I didnt do much myself other than fuel the fire lmao. j/k

I think Im on the fence about it. The plant will not just sprout with pistils and ready to get busy but it will however begin to want to. Given a couple weeks it should begin to show it. However 12/12 from seed can do just fine. Its been done.


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## AlkaloidContent (Jun 20, 2011)

Ill tell you what for how small they are they are already starting to stink.

It was some good ish I took the seed from and the seeds where actually very healthy. Hopefully this is an indication of things to come.


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## Roddy (Jun 20, 2011)

7greeneyes said:
			
		

> MOOT POINT its a moot point, Hick...lol



LMAO....muting, mooting....it's all moot, my friend!


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## jbyrd (Jun 20, 2011)

Hick said:
			
		

> " I've been growing this plant a long time"...(probably not the best card to pull )
> hmmm I've been growing since 1980 .   I have "several" hundred plants under my belt, both ID and out.
> Sure you find 'contradicting' info' in various books, but you 'won't' find much incorrect or mythical info' in Clarkes book.
> 
> ...



It was not a card, looks like someone else is as old as I am 

I think my point was lost in all this discussion, my post that started this was in reference to THG's post regarding that you can not force flower a seedling.  If you wait until a seedling is 'sexually mature', then you are looking at a minimum of 4 - 8 weeks, if you pop a bean and go right to 12/12 and said bean starts showing pre-flowers in 2 - 3 weeks, have you not forced flower?  Did you not force the plant to mature in a hurried manner?  I've done it, seen it and nothing in a book written in 1981 is going to tell me that it's not possible as I've witnessed it happen.

Also - Just want to make sure that you know I'm not condoning this method, take a look at my grow and you'll see that I give a damn good veg time as I understand the payoff.  I just can't sit and read that something can't happen when I've seen it with my own one eye (old accident..lol).


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## Growdude (Jul 24, 2011)

Hey AC its been over 30 days from your last pics, lets see how there doing.


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## 7greeneyes (Aug 1, 2011)

Roddy said:
			
		

> LMAO....muting, mooting....it's all moot, my friend!


 
:rofl: lol! hahaha! :rofl: lets zee zose zexy goilz, ya?


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## Locked (Aug 1, 2011)

Growdude said:
			
		

> Hey AC its been over 30 days from your last pics, lets see how there doing.




I don't think he hangs here anymore....since that big blow up he had.


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