RSO from a spagyric elixir

[Soloma]

Greetings, new member here. I am getting back into growing, I will be using high cbd/thc strains for medicinal purposes. It has been a few years since I last grew, at that time I had been intending on taking the rso to the next level by making a spagyric however things did not work out for me to allow me to do so.

http://heavenswithinearth.blogspot.com/2009/05/quick-overview-of-simple-spagyric.html

The above link is a simplified over view of the spagyric making process. Essentially in alchemy, a spagyric is a tincture with one additional step. You would calcine or burn the plant matter that you extracted the medicinal properties from with alcohol. The belief is that there are still medicinal qualities in the plant that are not soluble in alcohol.

The plant matter is burned to a grey to white ash and then washed and distilled with water seven times, each time re combing the distillate with the ash. After the seventh distillation, the distillate is saved and the non soluble ash discarded.

From the distillate, you extract the "salt" or earth aspect of the plant by a simple evaporation. The "salt" should very much resemble salt and is to be re combined with the tincture to form a spagyric elixir.

This elixir is said to be a complete medicine, especially if done in harmony with self and universe. In alchemy, there is a aspect of astrology involved in making the most potent medicine possible.

This cannabis spagyric elixir is what I eventually intend to evaporate the alcohol from to create a more complete rso. I am posting this here to see if anyone else has done or is thinking about doing such and also to bring this thought to your awareness so that you may be inspired to do the same.

I would love to hear thoughts about this idea as well as whether or not other folks are already doing this. Thanks for your time in reading this thread.

 

[The Hemp Goddess]

I have not heard of this, but find myself somewhat skeptical that you could get anything from plant matter that has been burned to white ash and then washed and distilled seven times. Are there any lab tests that show exactly what this process does and what the "salt" adds to the RSO?

 

[Soloma]

There are no lab tests that I know of. Doing a quick search of cannabis spagyric netted me a link to another forum where it is in fact already being done. I am unsure of forum ettiquette so for now I will refrain from posting the link, however it should easily be found by bing/google cannabis spagyric.

I am off to read the thread now myself.

edit - the thread had one post from the op and was never finished.

http://forum.alchemyforums.com/forumdisplay.php?76-Spagyrics-amp-Entheogens
This looks to be an excellent resource. I have a copy of Robert Bartlett`s Real Alchemy on my desk as I type and can recommend it as a great beginner guide to alchemy. Essentially that is what making rso is, alchemy.

A spagyric then is an elixir, a plant tincture with the "salt" of the plant added back in after the calcination and distillation of the plant`s ash. My intent is to use this elixir as RS currently uses a cannabis tincture to derive his rso. In essence, what I would be looking to create is rsoplus.

It would be great for those of you who have already made rso to potentially try and make a rsoplus yourself, using the same strains you used for rso if possible so we can perhaps actually answer ourselves THG`s question if the salt actually add`s any medicinal benefit to rso.

This can also be done at the time of making rso simply by making two separate batches and using the ash from both batches and combining the "salt" derived from them back into one tincture which then becomes an elixir to be used for rsoplus.

We can get our science on and perhaps take rso to the next level.

 

[Rosebud]

Having made rso I don't believe there is any "next level". Just my opinion.

 

[Soloma]

Certainly would never be able find out w/o trying.

Alchemy has been around for a very long time, rso is made via an alchemical process and it is proven to work. Since this is derived from an alchemical process, would it not be prudent to consider that an additional alchemical step might yield better results? Especially when the alchemists say it will?

I will be trying this and will be making two batches of every oil I make to see if I can prove that the alchemists were totally right and not just partially right. I would love if others joined me, nothing to loose as that additional "salt" you add back in is simply part of the cannabis plant.

RB I would think this line of thinking would resonate with you since you have already made rso. I am somewhat surprised, it is great to be skeptical but do not let that stop you from exploring new possibilities. Look into alchemy a little, take time to try and understand what they are saying. It should not be too difficult for you considering you are already versed in some alchemical ways.

There are resources out there that do not use all the allegory, symbols and hard to understand mumbo jumbo. Bartlett`s Real Alchemy is not difficult to understand and like the link I provided says, you do not need to get deep into alchemy such as astrology to have darn near the best possible medicine you could possibly have. It just requires an extra step of burning and distilling the ash to even see if you can extract the "salt". The distillation step would require a setup that you can always use in the future to distill your own water for your plants, if needed.

 

[AluminumMonster]

Are you referring to the same alchemists who thought they could turn a base metal in to a noble metal? Hahaha. You know, the same ones who believed in mysticism.

I kinda hope this thread was intended to be a joke....

 

[Soloma]

Turning lead to gold is said to be allegory for the spiritual transformation of the self. Alchemy much like spiritual teaching should not necessarily be taken literally. However other studies of mine do lead me to believe transmutation of one thing to another is possible. Think in frequencies, which might be another subject to persue in of itself. What frequencies does a cannabis plant respond best to?

I am totally serious about this thread.

 

[Rosebud]

Do you know how much it costs to make RSO? It takes a pound of cannabis to make 1 or maybe 2 ounces of the oil. I got 4 syringes out of ONE pound.... are you picking up what i am putting down? Your burning it and adding salt, no thanks... sorry i am not open minded about RSO. I won't even use naptha.... it isn't happening.

 

[Soloma]

Very in tune with the quantities involved. I have dabbled in making oils though I had to move prior to actually making a rso.

Just to be clear you are not adding salt, the term "salt" is used allegorically to signify the earth aspect of the plant that is separated from the plant matter that has already been in the everclear. It is then recombined with the tincture, so if you are concerned with how much cannabis it takes to make 2oz. of rso, then I would think you would want to get every last bit of medicinal properties from the plant.

I think you are not quite understanding the process. You would be using the same exact method that you already use to make rso. At the stage where you throw away or compost the cannabis that has soaked in the solvent you would instead burn it and then distill it to recover what is soluble from the ash in the water. It is this "salt", which is not really salt, that is recombined into your tincture. The tincture is the everclear that had the cannabis in it prior to the alcohol being evaporated off to form the oil.

This tincture with the earth aspect of the plant added in is considered a spagyric. It is this spagyric, which has additional medicinal qualities, that the alcohol would then be evaporated off from to form the oil. The oil I would then consider to be rsoplus because it is augmented with additional medicinal qualities and will be the same quantity as regular rso. Spagyric > tincture in medicinal qualities, it stands to reason then rsoplus > rso.

Same rso method with an additional step to recover the remaining medicinal properties of the cannabis. If I recall correctly from my studying of alchemy and I may not, the whole will be greater than the sum of its parts. If this is true, this method could really take rso to the next level. I intend on finding out and am hoping others may be as curious as I. I know I will not be hurting the medicine, only potentially adding to its effects. Perhaps even greatly.

However I will not know this until I make a batch and find someone who needs it and is willing to try both. Hopefully the effects will be significant enough that someone who is taking rso and rsoplus could tell the difference. If not, then it might not be worth the extra effort.

Only one way to find out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spagyric

These herbal tinctures are alleged to have superior medicinal properties to simple alcohol tinctures, perhaps due the formation of soap-like compounds from the essential oils and the basic salts contained within the ash.

 

[Soloma]

Greetings Multifarious.

While you know of no tests pertaining to cannabis oil spagyric elixirs, how about lab tests on other spagyric elixirs ? Do such tests exist and did they prove that by making a spagyric elixir it increased the medicinal properties of these elixirs ?

http://www.biogetica.com/clinical-studies.php
Good questions. Perhaps this link may give you some answers as it seems to have other links to clinical trials of herbal extracts. While spagyrics are not mentioned, a spagyric is considered a mother tincture or extract.

It stands to reason to me that if tinctures are proven to work (tons of them are sold world wide), then the additional steps required to create a spagyric would not subtract from the efficacy of the of the tincture. On the contrary, I am betting the alchemists got it right much like they did with tincture making, a spagyric will be more potent than a tincture.

What additional medical propities do you expect to produce by making a spagyric elixir and how are you going to test these properties ?

No idea and no way of determining, I do not nor do I foresee having that sort of equipment. Do you think RS was able to answer this question if you posed it to him prior to giving his rso to his first patient? Most likely not, I imagine he only had his personal anecdote to relate.

Testing your oils on a person willing to try a cannabis oil and an adapted cabbabis oil (spagyric elixir) is likely to prove very little without labrority tests.

This may prove to be the case, wont know until I try.

There are simply far to many variables for testing the differences between the two products from the strength of the cannabis used to produce the oils and the patients perception of the relief gained from the oils. The "placebo effect" has to be taken into consideration this is why "double blind" tests are often used in comparison testing.

I understand all this however I will not be in position to conduct double blind studies. I am thinking I will not have to as I believe the end result will be significantly more potent. However if I am wrong, you still have rso w/ additional plant material added back in. I do not think this to be a wasted effort.

On a side note while Rick Simpson has popularised the use of Cannabis Oil. Cannabis oil in my opinion should not be called "Rick Simpson Oil" or "RSO"

I concur however the man did do something wonderful for mankind, he took a risk to help people. I have no problems with referring to cannabis oil as rso also in part because it imply`s a method to create the oil.

It is why I would consider an oil made from a spagyric rsoplus. No need to complicate things, many people already know what rso is. I feel it might be very important that they also understand where the process of making the medicine comes from and that those who created the process say there is still more work yet to be done to create the most potent medicine possible.

 

[Rosebud]

Cannabis oil isn't RSO. People aren't walking around smoking RSO in a vape pen. What people are doing with it is lowering their cancer numbers. Soloma, you lost me at distill.

Talk to me after you have made a few batches of RSO. Look at the what is left.... Heck, I would give you what is left. YUCK.

 

[Soloma]

Cannabis oil isn't RSO. People aren't walking around smoking RSO in a vape pen. What people are doing with it is lowering their cancer numbers. Soloma, you lost me at distill.

Talk to me after you have made a few batches of RSO. Look at the what is left.... Heck, I would give you what is left. YUCK.

RB, I have made many tinctures, I know what plant matter looks like after it has been in the solvent. I have made oil of other plants, just not cannabis, yet.

Distillation is simply a process where you evaporate off the liquid, in this case spring/rain/distilled water and condense it back to its liquid form. This process separates liquid from solids to provide a more pure liquid.

In the spagyric making process, you wash the ash that is derived from your cannabis that has been soaked in the everclear in a process called leeching. Eventually the water that you use in this process will be infused with the earth aspect of the plant. You would discard the ash that did not dissolve in the water and evaporate the water that you kept to end up with the "salt", earth aspect or body of the plant. This "salt" is then added back in to your pre rso tincture to create the spagyric. It is this spagyric that you would then evaporate off the alcohol from to get the rsoplus.

To do this you would need a little more equipment however this can be cobbled together from items that may already be in your home. Google homemade distillation setup or do a little research and see what you find.

As far as rso/cannabis oil goes, they are similar enough for our purposes to consider them the same. There are just different preparation methods involved and as I stated above, I am ok w/ rso because it implies a method which anyone can do to create a cannabis oil.

 

[AluminumMonster]

Soloma, you're kicking a dead horse here. Unless you have some physical evidence that your method works I doubt you're going to get anyone here to try it. Now, if you want to go grow your own weed and make your own oil and come back with some actual results that would be a different story.

I'm not sure what made you think you could get us to possibly risk thousands of dollars worth of bud to try some untested and wackadoo sounding method. Sorry if that sounds harsh but what you're talking about really sounds crazy and pointless.

 

[Soloma]

There is nothing whacky or crazy about it. There is no risk to your wallet whatsoever. Have you even attempted to read the link provided in the first post that tells you how to make both a tincture and also a spagyric?

If you have read it, I suggest you read it again because you seem to not understand what is being said here.

To make a spagyric you use the same exact method you use to make a tincture. The tincture is what you evaporate the everclear from to create the cannabis oil. RSO is a form of cannabis oil because it implies a method of how to make cannabis oil (very potent).

To make this spagyric you will have two things, a cannabis tincture and the plant material you used to make the tincture that you intend to discard or compost. It is the "WASTE" that you aquire the additional medicinal properties from that were not soluble in alcohol.

You then add back in these additional medicinal properties to your tincture. This will not hurt your tincture because it came from the very same plant. It is this mother tincture (which is said to be the second most potent medicine behind the vegetable stone) that you then evaporate off the oil from to create the same rso oil, only augmented.

I am not kicking a dead horse, this is not hard to understand. Think about it.

 

[Soloma]

I happen to disagree Rose

In my opinion Cannabis oil is made by using an alcohol based solvent to extract the cannabinoids from the cannabis - aka as RSO.

Rick Simpson did not invent this process he popularised it.

Cannabis oil can be smoked though I'd guess most people using pen Vapes are vaping BHO, wax, shatter, budder or even glycerine infused with cannabis.

Correct Multi, rso IS cannabis oil but not all cannabis oil is rso. it is in the preparation method that differentiates them. Rso is very potent.

I hope you are giving what I am saying consideration and I do intend on making what I am doing known. I do not you tube or face book or any of that non sense however I am sure I will upload pictures or even a video on how to.

I am sharing this idea here because there are those of you who are in better position than myself right now to act. There is no more risk to your bud than there was when the first time you made rso. I believe the truth to be that this going to enhance rso, take it to the next level.

It would be great if more people tried this method (which again is already what you are doing) and report back the results.

Think of how important this could be.

 

[AluminumMonster]

I understand exactly what you're saying. I am telling you that unless you have done it and have evidence that you did it, we're probably not going to try it for you. Go grow your own and do it yourself.:hitchair:

 

[Soloma]

I understand exactly what you're saying. I am telling you that unless you have done it and have evidence that you did it, we're probably not going to try it for you. Go grow your own and do it yourself.:hitchair:

So wait, just because you are unwilling to try something I should automatically not discuss the idea openly with others?

 

[Soloma]

I also feel that you are kicking a dead horse.

I have a good understanding how tinctures are made and have made Hash/Glycerine tinctures in the past.
I'm currently looking forward to making my own Canna Oil using an alcohol as the solvent. I'm also considering making my own reflux still to produce 190 proof alcohol.

I'm sorry but the idea of then adding back the "salts" obtained by washing the ash of the burnt cannabis plant matter seems to be a step to far for me to bother with.

Good luck with your own spagyric extractions

I can understand this position, perhaps in time and maybe even after I have shared my results you may feel differently. Or not, no matter.

I would think since you and others are performing so much alchemy that you might want to know a little more about its potential. Once I realized what I was doing in making tinctures, I found myself reading any alchemy book I could get my hands on.

I am betting that since the tincture process to extract medicinal properties from plants has proven so successful, that they are also right in saying that a spagyric > tincture.

All reward and no risk.

 

[Rosebud]

Multi, Maybe we aren't talking about the same thing. I agree with your definition of cannabis oil. I also agree with you about RS not inventing this process. I also agree that oil can be smoked. I have and quite enjoyed it. But, and maybe this is the deal, none of the oil i have seen or smoked is anything like what i make. Maybe i make it wrong. I use everclear and cook it forever. The cost of what i make on the market would be prohibitive. At my figures it would be over a thousand dollars a syringe. I didn't pay that for my oil. Talk to me Multi.

 

[Soloma]

EDIT - Misunderstood the question and therefore answered incorrectly.

Please inform me of the preparation method of making cannabis oil with alcohol that differs from RSO ?

This whole thread is about that. Cannabis oil made from a spagyric would be different from rso that uses a tincture. They both use everclear. Slightly different method, potentially better results.