I know this becomes a hot subject, but I think that is a good thing and not a bad one. There are those with the train of thought that you should not remove any healthy leaves or branches, and those that believe pruning can help increase yield. I fall into the later. I use selective pruning in my grows. Here is some info from Ask Lucas. Thanks PJ for posting this on another site. It was the first I had seen it.
I have been using these techniques for years, and find they work really well on plants from seed, and I still remove most of the lower branches on cuts. Figured I'd share this info for anyone who does not pratice pruning, or understand why it is we do it.
> How do you feel about pruning
I am strongly in favor of pruning, and think PistilWhipt deserves great respect for popularizing the concept with our community.
5-6oz from 250w is excellent, and would probably be of lower quality and lower quantity without pruning.
My rules of thumb on pruning are as follows.
1. Remove the bottom 3 main branch pairs, they will end up shaded, and will produce popcorn if left on the plant.
2. Prune before going 12/12, not after, or at least no later than 2 weeks into 12/12
3. Using a model of an unpruned plant that has produced the 7th leaf pair, topping it below the 7th pair (use the top as a clone)
and then removing the bottom 3 branch pairs (can also be used as clones) will leave three strong branch pairs to be bloomed.
4. On large plants, whose 3 main branch pairs from step 3 exceed 12" in length before 12/12, each of those 3 branch pairs will also benefit from removing the bottom 3 branch pairs...
It is VERY beneficial to focus plant energy into strong shoots, and to remove any shoots that are less than 1/8" in diameter by 2 weeks into 12/12.
Fat shoots make FAT buds.
> So now I wonder about all that bottom growth - to trim or not to trim?
Im a big proponent of pruning here are some parameters
1. in my experience, the first 3 branch pairs from the bottom are going to be thin, will get shaded, and will produce popcorn. I cut them off at beginning of 12/12, for use as clones for the next cycle..
2. if leaves are touching close to the mainstem 3 weeks after 12/12 starts, to a point where condensation occurs overnight between overlapping leaves, the canopy is too dense, I will remove the first 3 pairs of shoots at the bottom of main branches, same as I treat the mainstem..
3. I top plants above leaf pair #6, leaving a total of 6 branches to bloom..2 weeks after topping is a good time to flip to 12/12... topping and removal of lower side branches can also be done together, at begin 12/12.. depends on plant density how big a bush you veg to....
> I'm still confused whether trimming the very bottom branches puts more energy into the tops or diminishes overall plant energy which could lower yield.
indoors, pruning can increase yield by focusing plant energy into primary branches whose tops are in the effective range of the light. In this scenario, removing lower branches that are underlit and underperforming, reduce the amount of aggravation the grower experiences at manicuring time.
arguably there is more yield from pruning, by focusing growth hormones from the removed lower branches, into the upper branches, making them produce fatter buds that if the plant energy were distributed to a larger number of smaller branches..
if the plants are outdoors, there may be more merit to the unpruned approach, but indoors, with limited lighting effective distances, I think pruning to focus energy is important.
in fact, now that you have an excellent bubbler design, I would focus on the cloning, vegging, and pruning system, so you bring the most health and vigor into the flip..
> Is this horizontal grow something I should shoot for.
if you like scrog, yes.. I don't like to train horizontal, cause it uses up time
I choose to veg plants to a candelabra shape, by pruning as described above.. then use bamboo stakes if needed to support the 6 remaining branches on the plant.
> do you suggest cutting the lower three branch's because they do not get enough light from above to produce good bud...?
yes, and also because the plant has growth hormones that have an antigravity feature, that is, the growth hormones flee the base of the plant, and concentrate on the physically highest point of the plant
> or do you NEED to cut off 3 to 7 percent of the canopy period to get good results and quality bud...?
in my opinion, yes, you NEED to cut off 30%-50% of the canopy
> will the low branch's always produce medium to low quality bud even if its not popcorn...?
try it and let us know what you think.. Im telling you its a waste of time..
> also, when you say to take the top 4'' off do you mean the single highest top
yes, here it is by the numbers
when a plant has 7 leaf pairs at the main stem,
1. remove the bottom 3 pairs, and their associated shoots/branches
2. cut off the top of the plant below 2 pairs and the center shoot this leaves 4 places for strong vigorous shoots to grow into a collumnar shape. The strategy is for top lighting.. but will also work with side lighting
the benefit of this aggresive prune is to create a sturdy stem, and strong colas.. no skimpy wimpy branches flopping around..
> when you say [leaf pairs] do you mean to say branchs
yes
remove the bottom 3 pairs, and their associated shoots/branches
> do you mean to REMOVE top of the center stalk, AND the remove tops of the first 2 sets of branchs below the center stalk as well causing them to all pair off and double
no
the strategy I outline is to produce 4 strong branches, untopped, and to remove everything else above and below them
> Can I still remove some of the LARGE fan leaves that are shading some of the lower buds
that is very controversial. I lean to the don't cut anything off side of the debate, but there are times when a little leaf pruning can help expose lower buds. Do a little experimenting, and decide what you like.
Consider the pros and cons are that removing a fan leaf removes the sugar factory for the bud branch where that fan leaf attaches. Chances are you will get a fatter cola if you leave the fan leaf on, even if lower buds don't get bigger, which they might not have anyway, since they are on skinnier branches and further away from the light, and further away from the top of the plant. The top of the plant has more growth hormones than lower branches..
I lean towards focusing energy into fewer bigger top colas, instead of many smaller lower buds. Hence my preference for 4-6 main branches, candelabra style.
Since you are at day 26, I would not cut anything else off.. but try to learn from how densely the plants are filled in, and watch how much canopy depth it allows.
you obviously mastered the horizontal fill of your canopy, now you get to fine tune the depth of it. Yield is not just about square feet, its also about depth.
Depth has to do with pruning, and letting light get between the plants.
It is Not ideal to have wall to wall contact between the plants, cause that only leaves the tops to get light..
not sure if you get my drift.. basically, overvegging, will create a canopy with less depth.
having too many side branches also creates canopy with less depth
ideally, separate colas that are 18" tall spaced 6" apart, is the design goal of candelabra style.
for bush style, which is what you have right now, it is better for the plants not to touch each other.. yours are touching too much.. but you will still be very happy with what you have rising out of the canopy of leaves.
I think of it that way, the colas Rise above the canopy of leaves. Hence back to your original question, should you cut leaves, no. Not if they are feeding cola towers.
> I wonder, would this candalabra approach yield more than the single?
it is not for yield, its to keep the canopy from being too tall.
topping is a way to reduce the stretch. On a plant that will normally stretch 3 feet, topping it will produce a 2 foot stretch.
yield comes from having the colas as close together as possible, while still getting light penetration, because yield comes from not just the square feet, but additionally from the depth of canopy, to produce maximum yield volume.
using more plants puts the colas closer together, which is good up to a limit
> How do I grow sea of green best, with high plant numbers and highest bud to leaf ratio possible?
by pruning the lower part of the plant off by week 2 of 12/12 so only the top shoot has a chance to bud
> Q: When you get really energetic grow tips, what is the best way to control this?
topping. although, I don't top secondary branches.. unless you are limited by height. Any topping after 12/12 starts can potentially reduce yield.. try to do all topping before 12/12
__________________
I have been using these techniques for years, and find they work really well on plants from seed, and I still remove most of the lower branches on cuts. Figured I'd share this info for anyone who does not pratice pruning, or understand why it is we do it.
> How do you feel about pruning
I am strongly in favor of pruning, and think PistilWhipt deserves great respect for popularizing the concept with our community.
5-6oz from 250w is excellent, and would probably be of lower quality and lower quantity without pruning.
My rules of thumb on pruning are as follows.
1. Remove the bottom 3 main branch pairs, they will end up shaded, and will produce popcorn if left on the plant.
2. Prune before going 12/12, not after, or at least no later than 2 weeks into 12/12
3. Using a model of an unpruned plant that has produced the 7th leaf pair, topping it below the 7th pair (use the top as a clone)
and then removing the bottom 3 branch pairs (can also be used as clones) will leave three strong branch pairs to be bloomed.
4. On large plants, whose 3 main branch pairs from step 3 exceed 12" in length before 12/12, each of those 3 branch pairs will also benefit from removing the bottom 3 branch pairs...
It is VERY beneficial to focus plant energy into strong shoots, and to remove any shoots that are less than 1/8" in diameter by 2 weeks into 12/12.
Fat shoots make FAT buds.
> So now I wonder about all that bottom growth - to trim or not to trim?
Im a big proponent of pruning here are some parameters
1. in my experience, the first 3 branch pairs from the bottom are going to be thin, will get shaded, and will produce popcorn. I cut them off at beginning of 12/12, for use as clones for the next cycle..
2. if leaves are touching close to the mainstem 3 weeks after 12/12 starts, to a point where condensation occurs overnight between overlapping leaves, the canopy is too dense, I will remove the first 3 pairs of shoots at the bottom of main branches, same as I treat the mainstem..
3. I top plants above leaf pair #6, leaving a total of 6 branches to bloom..2 weeks after topping is a good time to flip to 12/12... topping and removal of lower side branches can also be done together, at begin 12/12.. depends on plant density how big a bush you veg to....
> I'm still confused whether trimming the very bottom branches puts more energy into the tops or diminishes overall plant energy which could lower yield.
indoors, pruning can increase yield by focusing plant energy into primary branches whose tops are in the effective range of the light. In this scenario, removing lower branches that are underlit and underperforming, reduce the amount of aggravation the grower experiences at manicuring time.
arguably there is more yield from pruning, by focusing growth hormones from the removed lower branches, into the upper branches, making them produce fatter buds that if the plant energy were distributed to a larger number of smaller branches..
if the plants are outdoors, there may be more merit to the unpruned approach, but indoors, with limited lighting effective distances, I think pruning to focus energy is important.
in fact, now that you have an excellent bubbler design, I would focus on the cloning, vegging, and pruning system, so you bring the most health and vigor into the flip..
> Is this horizontal grow something I should shoot for.
if you like scrog, yes.. I don't like to train horizontal, cause it uses up time
I choose to veg plants to a candelabra shape, by pruning as described above.. then use bamboo stakes if needed to support the 6 remaining branches on the plant.
> do you suggest cutting the lower three branch's because they do not get enough light from above to produce good bud...?
yes, and also because the plant has growth hormones that have an antigravity feature, that is, the growth hormones flee the base of the plant, and concentrate on the physically highest point of the plant
> or do you NEED to cut off 3 to 7 percent of the canopy period to get good results and quality bud...?
in my opinion, yes, you NEED to cut off 30%-50% of the canopy
> will the low branch's always produce medium to low quality bud even if its not popcorn...?
try it and let us know what you think.. Im telling you its a waste of time..
> also, when you say to take the top 4'' off do you mean the single highest top
yes, here it is by the numbers
when a plant has 7 leaf pairs at the main stem,
1. remove the bottom 3 pairs, and their associated shoots/branches
2. cut off the top of the plant below 2 pairs and the center shoot this leaves 4 places for strong vigorous shoots to grow into a collumnar shape. The strategy is for top lighting.. but will also work with side lighting
the benefit of this aggresive prune is to create a sturdy stem, and strong colas.. no skimpy wimpy branches flopping around..
> when you say [leaf pairs] do you mean to say branchs
yes
remove the bottom 3 pairs, and their associated shoots/branches
> do you mean to REMOVE top of the center stalk, AND the remove tops of the first 2 sets of branchs below the center stalk as well causing them to all pair off and double
no
the strategy I outline is to produce 4 strong branches, untopped, and to remove everything else above and below them
> Can I still remove some of the LARGE fan leaves that are shading some of the lower buds
that is very controversial. I lean to the don't cut anything off side of the debate, but there are times when a little leaf pruning can help expose lower buds. Do a little experimenting, and decide what you like.
Consider the pros and cons are that removing a fan leaf removes the sugar factory for the bud branch where that fan leaf attaches. Chances are you will get a fatter cola if you leave the fan leaf on, even if lower buds don't get bigger, which they might not have anyway, since they are on skinnier branches and further away from the light, and further away from the top of the plant. The top of the plant has more growth hormones than lower branches..
I lean towards focusing energy into fewer bigger top colas, instead of many smaller lower buds. Hence my preference for 4-6 main branches, candelabra style.
Since you are at day 26, I would not cut anything else off.. but try to learn from how densely the plants are filled in, and watch how much canopy depth it allows.
you obviously mastered the horizontal fill of your canopy, now you get to fine tune the depth of it. Yield is not just about square feet, its also about depth.
Depth has to do with pruning, and letting light get between the plants.
It is Not ideal to have wall to wall contact between the plants, cause that only leaves the tops to get light..
not sure if you get my drift.. basically, overvegging, will create a canopy with less depth.
having too many side branches also creates canopy with less depth
ideally, separate colas that are 18" tall spaced 6" apart, is the design goal of candelabra style.
for bush style, which is what you have right now, it is better for the plants not to touch each other.. yours are touching too much.. but you will still be very happy with what you have rising out of the canopy of leaves.
I think of it that way, the colas Rise above the canopy of leaves. Hence back to your original question, should you cut leaves, no. Not if they are feeding cola towers.
> I wonder, would this candalabra approach yield more than the single?
it is not for yield, its to keep the canopy from being too tall.
topping is a way to reduce the stretch. On a plant that will normally stretch 3 feet, topping it will produce a 2 foot stretch.
yield comes from having the colas as close together as possible, while still getting light penetration, because yield comes from not just the square feet, but additionally from the depth of canopy, to produce maximum yield volume.
using more plants puts the colas closer together, which is good up to a limit
> How do I grow sea of green best, with high plant numbers and highest bud to leaf ratio possible?
by pruning the lower part of the plant off by week 2 of 12/12 so only the top shoot has a chance to bud
> Q: When you get really energetic grow tips, what is the best way to control this?
topping. although, I don't top secondary branches.. unless you are limited by height. Any topping after 12/12 starts can potentially reduce yield.. try to do all topping before 12/12
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