The truth on LEDs

Well LEDs always seem to be a hot topic, and any post they're LEDs are in, people are going to have a very wide range of opinions about them. Nothing is wrong with opinions, but I thought a thread STARTING with solid LED facts could be useful (seems most other LED threads start with new guys asking about them, then the responses get a lil crazy).

This will be a personal experience post, with alot of info drawn from other members in this forum as well, so I'll tell a bit about my light.
I use a Procyon 100 LED system, its a LED system which uses Cree LEDs for its lighting, a mix of red (40)and blue (16) LEDs. I use it to cover roughly 8 square feet of space and I veg with it 24/7. This is a 100 Watt system running on 120 volts.

Now this brings me to my first point, differentiating a quality light from the cheap ones. LEDs are much like HID in that quality in is quality out. Much like you get what you pay for in a bulb or ballast, same with LEDs. Doesn't even bother looking at a LED light if it uses LEDs at 1 watt each or less. They simply won't put out the light you need to grow, not to metion most of these leds are poor quality cheap products from China and won't last too long. Look for LEDs that use some watts up to put out light, look for an LED system that uses individual LEDs rated at least at 1.5 watts each. Also look for brand name LEDs in your grow light, such as Cree. Cree not only makes ultra bright special LEDs, but they make a chipset specifically for their LEDs which improves efficiency, brightness, and product lifetime. This is much like how purchasing a quality digital ballast for your HID lighting will improve the lumen output and bulb life. So remember, buying a LED light, look for decent wattage on individual LEDs in the light, and look for brand name LEDs (there are so many LED growlight products that are basically scams, seeing quality name brand LEDs i n a light will also let you know you have a light maker that cares about his product quality).

Now a big factor people pit LED against HID is cost savings and energy savings. A new quality LED light is gonna cost about $600, when the same complete setup for HID will cost about $400. This is assuming that the LED light is equivalent to a 400 watt HPS/MH. Now you have to replace a HPS bulb every year, and they run about 70 dollars for a decent one, so after 4 years of growing, you've already paid as much with HID as one would have had to spend on an LED light, and we haven't even figured in the energy costs saved with LED. It costs about 7 bucks a month to run 100 watts at 120 v 24/7. This means I'm paying 21 buck a month less than I would if I was using a 400 watt HID in its place, thats a good 250 a year saved. So have I completely sold you on LED yet? Yes? Well sounds like you lack information that many others dreaming of LEDs lack; LEDs have a limited operating life, they don't put out intense growing light for decades on end, like many think. After 5 years of use, even the top quality brands of LEDs decrease in brightness by 30 percent or more, and as I will go to show later in this post, a drop in brightness that amount with LEDs lighting is unacceptable. Basically, you would have to buy a new LED light system every 5 years, so at 600 buck a pop, thats gonna get pricy. In the end, after a decent period of time, the cost difference between the two is negligable and probably shouldn't be a factor in your decision.

Well, I guess since I just mentioned why a light decrease in LEDs is unacceptable, let me explain here why. LED lighting systems use a combination of red and blue LEDs, and since they can't occupy exactly the same space, as their light falls through the mj canopy the red and blue light separate and cast shadows in different directions. This means that leave below the top canopy will be often lacking one whole section from the spectrum of light they need. Basically, light can't get past the top layer of leaves, and everything underneath suffers for it. I included some pictures of a couple mother plants of mine, in them you can see thier healthy top canopy, and then everything beneath. You can see the stunted leaf growth and dead leaves from lack of light. You can also see that the top of the blants have beautiful and health leaves. This is why LEDs can't be knocked entirely, because while they don't have good light penetration at all, they certainly can sustain healthy growth to a point. LEDs would be great for vegging small plant without developed canopies for example, or working with a scrog in which nothing but the top canopy is important. To effectively flower with LEDs though, you will need more that one LED grow light. There will be too many light gaps to fill in as the buds start to form and cast shadows to grow with just one. An example of what you would have to do to flower effectively with LEDs can be found in this grow journal http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34609. As you can see though, it took him alot of money in led lights to get enough light to flower effectively and pierce the canopy, and he was almost using the same amount of power as one would of with HID because he had to use multiple LED lamps.

Well, so I've talked about the cons of LEDs a bit, let's talk about the pros. I have included a pic of my LED vegging setup, as you can see, nice and simple. I don't have to have any fancy duct cooling sytem or bulky reflector to deal with. So those are two big things for some people, if you can't vent and cool a HID light, but are growing in a small space that gets hot fast, LEDs might be the answer. The size, as you can see, would allow for it to be mounted, moved, dealt with, whatever, in many different ways than a HID with reflector could be. Also as you can see in the pic, I hang dry my harvested weed right by my light. I don't have the room to hang dry anywhere else in the house, as that room is the only one with a carbon filter. Since no UV rays come from the light and very little heat, its perfectly safe to hang dry your weed right next to your light, a huge space saving bonus in my book. Also, light doesn't leak out everywhere with LED light, managing bleeding light out of your closet has never been easier. Also, because of the low heat, you can drop your LEDs right on top of your plants without burning them. The only thing about that is I've noticed LEDs like to be mounted a bit higher up for dispersal of its light, so unless you just have a few plants under it, you probably won't want to drop it that low or you'll right start suffering some light falloff.



Bottom line, I will use this till I see that 30 percent light output decrease, then its gone. Hopefully by then I'll be growing in a basement rather than a closet, and I will replace it with HID. Right now LEDs are perfect for me cause I'm growing in a closet, but when I have the space to deal with HID, I will.

Nice grow op. Looks like the LEDs are working for ya. Thanks for the great info.

MCM

Also, I know many people looks at LEDs and wonder about lumens and brightness. Now Leds put out 2 specific wavelengths of light, just two colors (red and blue at very specific wavelenghths), not the whole spectrum of light like HID lighting does. These specific wavelengths in the LED lights might be just as strong as the same wavelengths being put out by the HID lighting, but the HID light is also putting out a ridiculous amount of other wavelengths of light. Lumen measures the sum of ALL the light being put out, so lumens can't accurately measure and compare the growing power of LEDs to HID, as LEDs would only be measured for 2 wavelengths of its light against HIDs 1000's of wavelengths. This would make any measure of LED light in lumens appear to be very small, when in reality it could be putting out just as much of the red and blue light a plant needs to grow as a HID light, which measers very high in lumens because of all its non useful wavelengths being measured as well.

I also like to check out this site for LED light info: hxxp://www.greenpinelane.com/ . The site is put on by a tomato grower who drops the cash on all the big name brand LED systems and gives very thorough equipment tests and grow journals on them. Lots of quality information and time have gone into this site and its definately a valuable resource because of it. Just remember, those are tomotoes there, so the canopy problem and maybe others I've had with weed aren't gonna be to prevelant with tomatos, just something to think about...

hey bic ligther....you remind me of my brother..he showed me eveything in detals.. he got high output leds..at good prices.. he made some to run with lithum battery.. it works nicely.. best thing about it..leo can't use FLIR system to detect high watt lights...he was telling me he only just want to grow clones and that is his main focus.. maybe we can get one thread cracking up to start teach people how to build a nice fancy led grow lights hmm?

Well LEDs always seem to be a hot topic, and any post they're LEDs are in, people are going to have a very wide range of opinions about them. Nothing is wrong with opinions, but I thought a thread STARTING with solid LED facts could be useful (seems most other LED threads start with new guys asking about them, then the responses get a lil crazy).

Click to expand...

.. thanks blanco'.. And with that, I would request that negative "opinions" and comments, remain limited and civil.. if not totally omitted.
The LED industry is advancing by leaps and bounds. We all must recognize that it is at least a feasable and reasonable option in the "near" future, if not now.

Well put together post blanco.

I trust your skillz, so I will be watching this one. I believe you will give us an honest opinon on how effective these really are.

Thanks guys, I just thought there should be a factual thread about LEDs goin. Anyone should be able to post LED info here, but all I ask is for people to back up what they post with solid info and/or reasoning so others can understand the thought behind whats happening and hopefully this will prevent flaming from going down. (thanks for addressing that already Hick)

I'll continue to post LED info I learn through my growing and any research I do, but others should definately post. Shoot, I already missed a huge point that papabeach brought up:

leo can't use FLIR system to detect LED lights. This could be huge for you if you livein a heavily LEO patrolled area, or are just a little too paranoid to be comfortable. (for those of you who don't know, FLIR makes infared and thermal imaging systems for law enforcement)

Thank you Blanco- Excellent post.
To clarify my understanding, as it stands today you think that LED's are a viable source for lighting where heat may be an issue, but given the space and necessary venting, your opinion is still that HID is better based on current technology available?
Thanks again- good post.

Yea, BB those are my feelings, almost dead on. Now if good LEDs dropped in price enough for me to use a few at once, I might do that as well, but I really don't see that happening to a point where it would be feasible for me anytime soon. Also, I'm not hating my LED light I have right now, I think it's great, just when I have the space, HID will be even better.

Another thing struck me as I was writing this reply. If you ever lose power or accidently turn off your light, you can turn it right back on without that waiting period HID needs. A small point, but a point none the less.

For all of you who want to see a HID and LED cost comparison in detail side by side, check this out: hxxp://www.growrevolution.com/calculator.php

It gives a great breakdown of the costs of each system and compares them side by size. It uses only their own LEDs to compare to, so its got limitations, but its a neat little tool. (note it doesn't take into account the LED 30 percent light loss after 5 years and how people might want to replace their unit afterwards, which is a huuuge price diff.)

Another interesting LED point, you don't have to water as much. I'm talking a day or two more between waterings than if you were using HPS.

Now I'm not sure as to the reason behind this, whether the heat from HPS causes water to evaporate out of pots faster than with LEDs, or if the plants consume more water to stay cool, or if the plants consume more water and grow more under HPS, I just don't know. So because I don't know what causes it, I can't really list less water consumption as a pro or con. Personally I feel that the water just evaporates quicker with HPS, but I can't prove that, so what you make of this one is up to you, but I think its a good thing.

I want to use leds.....the ufo to be specific. Im just worried because it doesnt seem like leds produce buds like hid. I saw a side by side grow and the ufo didnt even compare to the hid as far as actual buds produced. But, i must admit, the test didnt seem fair. They kept the ufo like 2 ft above and then let the plant grow outta control. It just seemed like a rigged test......but the hid did outperform.

This is the most informative thread on leds that I have read.

It is a welcome sight to be able to read a "led" thread without the bickering.

One is unable to learn if the facts are never allowed to be revealed and without being able to learn, one will never change their minds.

Keep up the good work blancolighter :aok:

I am sure by the time my kid grows his first plant there will only be LEDs.

I wonder what the difference in yield is between the hps and the leds?

Great info Blanco but after reading this thread I still wouldnt trade in my hps for an led. How do cfls compare to the leds as far as temps, light penitration, and yield? I know there are a few pros to using them but nothing significant that would make me go out and spend $600.

The pictures you showed have absolutely no canopy penitration, They looked naked from the waste down. I just cant picture those lights producing any amount of bud. It seems like you would have to purchase $1200 worth of leds to get a decent yield.

Sorry, Im just skeptical thats all.

Well I'll be buying a house this summer and hopefully I can do some straight up side by side testing. I have a t5 flouro setup (2 feet long and 4 tubes wide) that I've only been using for clones, but I've been hearing alot about t5s, so I think I might give them a go with my regular plants as well.

Now you said something about cfls maineharvest, I realize where the real comparisons should be made is cfls/t5s versus LEDs. I'll be obesrving with this in mind for the future...

Yeah I agree, its hard to compare an hps with an led. I think a cfl-led grow comparison needs to be done.

My guess would be that cfls out perform the leds as far as yield and they cost about a quarter of what an led does.

Like you Blanco, Im waiting on a house too. I cant wait to have all that extra space to play with and experiment with.

yo blanco, try and perform the experiment with clones from the same plant, that way, growth patterns would be ralatively the same, just the difference in lumen output, but it would be interesting to see the difference in dry weight, since that is what this experiment should be about.

Thanks for this thread, i say a led grow that yielded about 6oz from like 6 plants or something, then again, factual harvest weight may have been embellished, it is the interwebz afterall.

I grow in a closet, so heat buidup is a big, big issue. Currently, I've got a 400 Watt switchable light. I'm reluctant to add another HID light but am thinking about adding a UFO LED to the setup to increase the amount of light without increasing the amount of heat. Does that make sense?

It makes sense, but do some research man, there are worse ways to spend your money on LEDs, but there's also far better ways. The Ufo was the first as a home LED grow light, so its kinda a household name, but many other lights have been inspired by it and surpassed it in quality, so don't buy a UFO just cause you've heard of it. Do your research cause theres much better stuff out there.